Hello from California! Need some help…

[MantisLover]

This is my first experience with raising mantids. An S. limbata hitched a ride in our car back in September. I fell in love with her and she laid two ooths before she died. I now have 93 of mostly L4’s of her offspring though the L5’s are emerging almost daily. What a beautiful assortment of colors! I’ve become a bit crazed with mantids now and so I also have an orchid, an H. venosa sp golden, an R. stalli and a Sphodromantis sp blue-flash African giant.

I’m looking forward to all of the information this forum provides with the real life experiences of fellow enthusiasts! Right now I’m trying to solve the mystery of some black diarrhea in some of my S. limbata babies. They’re fine otherwise - great appetite and normal activity level. I have them in 32 ounce deli containers with fabric vented lids. They’ve only ever had flies to eat. I mist them once a day, enough to leave a fine layer of moisture on the inside of the container. Maybe too much? Even doing this, the containers are bone dry 12 hours later because of the dry heat in the house. There’s no blackness on their bodies or their eyes. They have a constant supply of flies. When I mist them I always add flies if they are out. Am I doing anything wrong? Any suggestions? I’ve read about gut loading flies before feeding to balance bacteria and to feed honey water. Is this recommended? I’ve read how honey water is really beneficial while others claim it will seize up the gut like amber! Some say the diarrhea is nothing to worry about and then I read how it means the mantid is sick with bacterial or fungal Black Death. I don’t know what to believe!

I’m sorry for my ranting and questions. I just want to take the best care of my babies! Thanks so much for reading my post. I’m glad to be a member of Mantidforum!

 

[agent A]

This is my first experience with raising mantids. An S. limbata hitched a ride in our car back in September. I fell in love with her and she laid two ooths before she died. I now have 93 of mostly L4’s of her offspring though the L5’s are emerging almost daily. What a beautiful assortment of colors!

hello!
Back in Rhode Island, I helped to mass-rear S. limbata. Not too bad except for cannibalism around i4 before we split them up. They are quite variable, both in the potential number of instars they can have and the colors!

I’ve become a bit crazed with mantids now and so I also have an orchid, an H. venosa sp golden, an R. stalli and a Sphodromantis sp blue-flash African giant.

it happens! though I much prefer to rear leps, it's easier to do mantises in CO

I’m looking forward to all of the information this forum provides with the real life experiences of fellow enthusiasts! Right now I’m trying to solve the mystery of some black diarrhea in some of my S. limbata babies. They’re fine otherwise - great appetite and normal activity level. I have them in 32 ounce deli containers with fabric vented lids. They’ve only ever had flies to eat. I mist them once a day, enough to leave a fine layer of moisture on the inside of the container. Maybe too much? Even doing this, the containers are bone dry 12 hours later because of the dry heat in the house. There’s no blackness on their bodies or their eyes. They have a constant supply of flies. When I mist them I always add flies if they are out. Am I doing anything wrong? Any suggestions? I’ve read about gut loading flies before feeding to balance bacteria and to feed honey water. Is this recommended? I’ve read how honey water is really beneficial while others claim it will seize up the gut like amber! Some say the diarrhea is nothing to worry about and then I read how it means the mantid is sick with bacterial or fungal Black Death. I don’t know what to believe!

let's think for a moment here. I have a few questions
1: what's "normal activity level"? When we reared these guys, only the males were ever particularly active unless there was food nearby
2: what flies are you using? PLEASE tell me they aren't 5th instar and still on fruit flies. I always recommend a varied diet for mantises. They should be getting crickets, roaches, flies, moths, etc.
3: what kind of water are you using?? I generally spray every other day, but my mantises are in grow tents that retain some humidity. It's good that the water dries (hopefully fully) between mistings, as constant wet in such a cramped space is really really bad!
4: are you sure it is diarrhea and not vomiting? usually, diarrhea is a death sentence because insect guts are weird in that there's little immune activity there (contrary to us where that's where the majority of our immune system hangs out).
5: I worry you're overfeeding your pets. I only feed my mantises 3 times per week. they shouldn't be constantly inundated with food, they aren't mammals!
6: I always gut-load flies by mixing condensed milk with crested gecko diet and letting the flies eat that for a day or 2. This gives the flies protein, fats, fiber, and vitamins to pass on to the mantis. Think about it, a freshly emerged fly is out of reserves after that metamorphosis process, and isn't a good food item on its own!
7: mantises cannot digest honey, and if you're using that fake grocery store crap, you're not doing the mantis any favors. bee pollen, on the other hand, is very healthy as a supplement for the mantis.
8: how often are you rinsing those cups out? I rinse every 2-3 weeks because these animals would never encounter their own feces on a daily basis in the wild
9: if you're taking advice from trolls on FB mantis groups, bad idea!

I’m sorry for my ranting and questions. I just want to take the best care of my babies! Thanks so much for reading my post. I’m glad to be a member of Mantidforum!

no prob! it's what we're here for

 

[hibiscusmile]

All good advice, he won't steer you wrong. I could use some of those guys you have. Are you selling any?

 

[MantisLover]

hello!
Back in Rhode Island, I helped to mass-rear S. limbata. Not too bad except for cannibalism around i4 before we split them up. They are quite variable, both in the potential number of instars they can have and the colors!

it happens! though I much prefer to rear leps, it's easier to do mantises in CO

let's think for a moment here. I have a few questions
1: what's "normal activity level"? When we reared these guys, only the males were ever particularly active unless there was food nearby
2: what flies are you using? PLEASE tell me they aren't 5th instar and still on fruit flies. I always recommend a varied diet for mantises. They should be getting crickets, roaches, flies, moths, etc.
3: what kind of water are you using?? I generally spray every other day, but my mantises are in grow tents that retain some humidity. It's good that the water dries (hopefully fully) between mistings, as constant wet in such a cramped space is really really bad!

4: are you sure it is diarrhea and not vomiting? usually, diarrhea is a death sentence because insect guts are weird in that there's little immune activity there (contrary to us where that's where the majority of our immune system hangs out).
5: I worry you're overfeeding your pets. I only feed my mantises 3 times per week. they shouldn't be constantly inundated with food, they aren't mammals!
6: I always gut-load flies by mixing condensed milk with crested gecko diet and letting the flies eat that for a day or 2. This gives the flies protein, fats, fiber, and vitamins to pass on to the mantis. Think about it, a freshly emerged fly is out of reserves after that metamorphosis process, and isn't a good food item on its own!
7: mantises cannot digest honey, and if you're using that fake grocery store crap, you're not doing the mantis any favors. bee pollen, on the other hand, is very healthy as a supplement for the mantis.
8: how often are you rinsing those cups out? I rinse every 2-3 weeks because these animals would never encounter their own feces on a daily basis in the wild
9: if you're taking advice from trolls on FB mantis groups, bad idea!

no prob! it's what we're here for

Thank you so much for your detailed reply! When I say normal activity level I mean their usual perkiness when I’m doing things with them. I’ll have them on my hand while rinsing the container and sometimes I take pictures of them too. Nothing too involved - just with my phone. But I get to know if one’s a jumper or how others are more calm. Some are fine with being hand fed while others just run away! As for food it has been flies only through 4th instar. They are all eating green bottle flies though sometimes I still supplement with Hydei’s. I’ve been having trouble getting the pupae spikes sometimes - lots of larvae out there but the pupae are less available (could really use the name of a good supplier). I have house fly pupae coming in a couple days. I also feed them dubia roaches though I’d like to find a supplier that has really small ones because my smaller 4th instars won’t go after them otherwise. I don’t feed crickets because I’ve had long talks with a couple breeders I’ve come to respect about the prevalence of parasites (saw a YouTube video about the horsehair worm) and higher amounts of chitin. I’d welcome your opinion on this because my first mantis loved them and the small sizes are so easy to get. Someone suggested only getting banded crickets but I don’t fully understand why there is added safety with them. They also get added treats of mealworms and waxworms. I use RO water since we always have it on hand because of our salt tank. It definitely is diarrhea as opposed to vomiting. It wells up at the tip and hangs there for a bit. When they first get it, it sort of dries up and hangs there. Some get past that point and are ok. For others it seems to just progress from there becoming increased in amount and soon after they die. Since you mentioned the possibility of over feeding them, I’ve backed off. When they were 2nd and 3rd instars I was feeding them every day because of how much I fed them as 1st instars (I was raised in an Italian family so I guess I’m still always wanting to make sure everyone has enough to eat lol). I will try your gut loading strategy. It does make sense they would need that extra boost of nutrition. I was thinking they must have gotten enough in the media of the culture. Thank you for clarifying the question of honey! Could you suggest a good supplier of bee pollen? Do you sprinkle it on the prey right before you feed? As for the deli cups I clean them out weekly. And no mantis FB groups for me.

Do we know what causes the diarrhea? Is it due to a bacteria/virus/fungi that spreads? Is there a safe way to “sterilize” the cups? I only use water to clean out the cups not wanting to leave a toxic residue.

You mentioned mass-rearing of S. Limbata. How envious I am! I’m thinking about mating a few. What was your experience with traits of color? I do have a bit of a background in biology. I was wondering if there are dominant/recessive patterns. Will two red ones be more likely to give me more of the reds and browns? Or is it the same deck of cards regardless of the appearance of the parents? I have McMonigle’s book which I’m so grateful for. But I can’t find anything else out there that goes into more detail.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond to my questions. I really appreciate it.

 

[MantisLover]

Thank you Hibiscusmile. I have sold some to a local reptile store and some I’m giving away to friends. I haven’t given much thought to the possibility of shipping them. I was considering a Craigslist ad with local pick-up being the only option. Where are you located?

 

[agent A]

Thank you so much for your detailed reply! When I say normal activity level I mean their usual perkiness when I’m doing things with them. I’ll have them on my hand while rinsing the container and sometimes I take pictures of them too. Nothing too involved - just with my phone.

sounds like habituation to me

But I get to know if one’s a jumper or how others are more calm. Some are fine with being hand fed while others just run away! As for food it has been flies only through 4th instar. They are all eating green bottle flies though sometimes I still supplement with Hydei’s. I’ve been having trouble getting the pupae spikes sometimes - lots of larvae out there but the pupae are less available (could really use the name of a good supplier). I have house fly pupae coming in a couple days.

I use rainbow mealworms for bottleflies, then Rebecca and Spider Pharm for houseflies. Be aware that the rainbow mealworms blue bottles are Calliphora vomitoria, which take about 12 days to metamorphosize, unlike Rebecca's Protophormia terraenovae which take maybe a week

I also feed them dubia roaches though I’d like to find a supplier that has really small ones because my smaller 4th instars won’t go after them otherwise. I don’t feed crickets because I’ve had long talks with a couple breeders I’ve come to respect about the prevalence of parasites (saw a YouTube video about the horsehair worm) and higher amounts of chitin. I’d welcome your opinion on this because my first mantis loved them and the small sizes are so easy to get. Someone suggested only getting banded crickets but I don’t fully understand why there is added safety with them.

I HATE dubias! they aren't easy for the animals to grasp. I have a plethora of other feeder roach species if you'd like some starter colonies...
banded crickets are resistant to various diseases that regular house crickets can give to mantises

They also get added treats of mealworms and waxworms. I use RO water since we always have it on hand because of our salt tank. It definitely is diarrhea as opposed to vomiting. It wells up at the tip and hangs there for a bit. When they first get it, it sort of dries up and hangs there. Some get past that point and are ok. For others it seems to just progress from there becoming increased in amount and soon after they die.

if they're all getting the diarrhea, it is probably environmental. I do not know if there are weird things like odor sprays, candles, glade plug-ins, etc in your place but that might be making them sick. IDK if you're an essential oils/diffuser person, but some of that stuff is toxic to insects. Are you using bleach, rubbing alcohol, or cyclohexane to clean things with between uses?

Since you mentioned the possibility of over feeding them, I’ve backed off. When they were 2nd and 3rd instars I was feeding them every day because of how much I fed them as 1st instars (I was raised in an Italian family so I guess I’m still always wanting to make sure everyone has enough to eat lol).

yea I was raised by binge-eaters and somehow I ended up a rexxie! funny stuff man

I will try your gut loading strategy. It does make sense they would need that extra boost of nutrition. I was thinking they must have gotten enough in the media of the culture. Thank you for clarifying the question of honey! Could you suggest a good supplier of bee pollen? Do you sprinkle it on the prey right before you feed? As for the deli cups I clean them out weekly. And no mantis FB groups for me.

I'd try a local apiary first!! I let the prey eat the pollen personally
How are you cleaning them??

Do we know what causes the diarrhea? Is it due to a bacteria/virus/fungi that spreads? Is there a safe way to “sterilize” the cups? I only use water to clean out the cups not wanting to leave a toxic residue.

10% bleach for 10 minutes then hot water rinse. standard insect lab protocol

You mentioned mass-rearing of S. Limbata. How envious I am! I’m thinking about mating a few. What was your experience with traits of color? I do have a bit of a background in biology. I was wondering if there are dominant/recessive patterns. Will two red ones be more likely to give me more of the reds and browns? Or is it the same deck of cards regardless of the appearance of the parents? I have McMonigle’s book which I’m so grateful for. But I can’t find anything else out there that goes into more detail.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond to my questions. I really appreciate it.

oh we didn't see any discernable pattern in coloration, and we only reared out 1 generation, so we didn't really get to track coloration. I'm willing to bet it's polygenic anyhow

Thank you Hibiscusmile. I have sold some to a local reptile store and some I’m giving away to friends. I haven’t given much thought to the possibility of shipping them. I was considering a Craigslist ad with local pick-up being the only option. Where are you located?

I'd be interested in a few pairs

 

[Synapze]

Hi there and welcome!

Following @agent A 's advice will save you a lot of losses and frustration. I've lost track of how many times I've relied on Alex's expertise.

 

[MantisLover]

sounds like habituation to me

I use rainbow mealworms for bottleflies, then Rebecca and Spider Pharm for houseflies. Be aware that the rainbow mealworms blue bottles are Calliphora vomitoria, which take about 12 days to metamorphosize, unlike Rebecca's Protophormia terraenovae which take maybe a week

I HATE dubias! they aren't easy for the animals to grasp. I have a plethora of other feeder roach species if you'd like some starter colonies...
banded crickets are resistant to various diseases that regular house crickets can give to mantises

if they're all getting the diarrhea, it is probably environmental. I do not know if there are weird things like odor sprays, candles, glade plug-ins, etc in your place but that might be making them sick. IDK if you're an essential oils/diffuser person, but some of that stuff is toxic to insects. Are you using bleach, rubbing alcohol, or cyclohexane to clean things with between uses?

yea I was raised by binge-eaters and somehow I ended up a rexxie! funny stuff man

I'd try a local apiary first!! I let the prey eat the pollen personally
How are you cleaning them??

10% bleach for 10 minutes then hot water rinse. standard insect lab protocol

oh we didn't see any discernable pattern in coloration, and we only reared out 1 generation, so we didn't really get to track coloration. I'm willing to bet it's polygenic anyhow

I'd be interested in a few pairs

Thank you for your referrals. Rainbow mealworms has a nice variety of supplies. I’m putting together an order now. I’d be interested in trying something other than dubias. You’re right - they have a hard time grasping them. I’ve been rolling them on their backs for easier access but this a bit time consuming! I would still like a species that doesn’t jump/climb/crawl. What’s involved with starting/keeping a colony? Do you feed your mantids crickets? Are banded crickets free of horsehair worms?

I don’t have any burning candles or use any odor eliminators. I don’t have any oil diffusers. I haven’t been using anything other than RO water to clean with, though now I will start using the bleach solution you mentioned. Yeah, I don’t get it with the diarrhea issue. Fortunately it’s only been about 20% that have had it. About half of those affected died and the other half seem to be recovering. It seems to start out with poop that doesn’t want to drop off. Sometimes I get it off by squirting water on it and lifting it gently with the corner of a wet paper towel.

I’m going to look into the pollen as you suggested. I’d be happy to get a few pairs to you but would need your guidance in how to safely ship them! I would also want to wait to make sure they don’t have any poop issues going as well.

 

[MantisLover]

Hi there and welcome!

Following @agent A 's advice will save you a lot of losses and frustration. I've lost track of how many times I've relied on Alex's expertise.

Thanks so much! Yes I already have a great appreciation for his knowledge and willingness to help! It’s so hard to find reliable sources of information especially when it comes to the finer details of rearing these amazing creatures. Thank you for reaching out

 

[agent A]

Thank you for your referrals. Rainbow mealworms has a nice variety of supplies. I’m putting together an order now. I’d be interested in trying something other than dubias. You’re right - they have a hard time grasping them. I’ve been rolling them on their backs for easier access but this a bit time consuming! I would still like a species that doesn’t jump/climb/crawl. What’s involved with starting/keeping a colony? Do you feed your mantids crickets? Are banded crickets free of horsehair worms?

I use a number of species. When these species explode again I'll sell you starters for cheap ($10 or so)
I recommend Nauphoeta cinerea, Panchlora sp., Oxyhaloa duesta, and Compsodes schwarzi. Be aware that C. schwarzi is a TINY roach and so not the best for your larger species
Keeping a colony of these species isn't hard, but let's cover it
N. cinerea is the easiest of the 4 to keep. they aren't picky about conditions, but they need a LOT of space due to how rapidly they breed. I usually cull half the colony every winter by just pulling out half of the egg crate and such, putting it in a bag, and tossing it outside. The frozen roaches are composted, fed to other animals, or used in plant TC medium... They need about an inch of substrate, just coco coir, and I usually let it alternate between moist and dry. this species loves protein so be sure to toss in plenty of dog food and dead animals with soft old produce. Remember, roaches should NEVER be fed the following:
onions
garlic
nuts
avocado

O. duesta also requires very little in terms of substrate, plain coco coir is fine. They shouldn't be kept too wet however, learned that the hard way, but they are bouncing back! very nice roaches. These and N. cinerea need escape-proof containers though. Gasketed bins are a must! I'll nab some pics of my setups later
I use heat tape set to 85F for all of my roaches btw
Then we have Panchlora. These are trickier, because they need about 8 inches of constantly moist, rotting wood laden soil. I make kinshi and flake soil, and mix 1 part of each to 1 part coco coir and 1 part rotting (but sterilized) hardwood leaves.
Then, C. schwarzi has similar substrate requirements as Panchlora do, but they only need an inch or so of it

I use these roaches, banded crickets, flies, and waxworm moths to feed my mantises
horsehair worms aren't the issue, it's various viruses and protists you need to worry about. I've seen horsehair worms from wild grasshoppers here in CO though!
I can show you my cricket/waxworm setups later if you want

I don’t have any burning candles or use any odor eliminators. I don’t have any oil diffusers.

are you using air purifiers in your insect room? If not, I highly recommend it. Not only will it keep the room free of potential allergens that could bother you, it will help keep airborne pollutants that may harm your insects at bay. I have 2 on opposing sides of my room (I need to replace their filters soon) and they work wonders!

I haven’t been using anything other than RO water to clean with, though now I will start using the bleach solution you mentioned. Yeah, I don’t get it with the diarrhea issue. Fortunately it’s only been about 20% that have had it. About half of those affected died and the other half seem to be recovering. It seems to start out with poop that doesn’t want to drop off. Sometimes I get it off by squirting water on it and lifting it gently with the corner of a wet paper towel.

bleach is your friend! It rinses cleanly so you won't need to worry about residue! if you're really worried about it, you can react excess away with hydrogen peroxide as well
I am not sure about the diarrhea either. I don't really encounter that issue with mine, so maybe it's genetic or pathogenic?

I’m going to look into the pollen as you suggested. I’d be happy to get a few pairs to you but would need your guidance in how to safely ship them! I would also want to wait to make sure they don’t have any poop issues going as well.

I can guide you on that, DW!!

 

[agent A]

forgot to mention, if you can't afford a real air purifier, get a few cheap square fans and some filters (the purple wrapping ones are the most effective at filtering crap from the air) and affix the filter to the outlet of the fan and plug it in and set to high. It will filter the air just fine!!

 

[agent A]

Thanks so much! Yes I already have a great appreciation for his knowledge and willingness to help! It’s so hard to find reliable sources of information especially when it comes to the finer details of rearing these amazing creatures. Thank you for reaching out

just a heads-up my pronouns are they/them. Even though I'm not some morbidly obese AFAB with short, dyed hair doesn't mean I'm not an enby

 

[hibiscusmile]

I'm in Ohio.