# Theopropus elegans



## yen_saw (Dec 7, 2007)

Received some of this cool species recently, still small nymphs, keeping them the same condition as orchid mantis at the moment.


----------



## macro junkie (Dec 7, 2007)

omg i want one i want one..where can i get an ooth from yen?them things are wicked!


----------



## Mantida (Dec 7, 2007)

There are some people in Germany who have T. elegans in stock, but shipping would be a problem.  I think Yen is the only one in the U.S. that we know of that is culturing them, and I'm not sure about the UK. However, they look similar to C. gemmatus and P.O/W's when they get older.


----------



## Andrew (Dec 7, 2007)

WOOT. :lol: This species rocks. Hope you have great success with them! I'd certainly like to try them out at some point as well.


----------



## idolomantis (Dec 7, 2007)

that are some beutifull mantids i keep us updated how it goes


----------



## MikhailsDinos (Dec 9, 2007)

Very nice Yen!


----------



## Morpheus uk (Dec 10, 2007)

Wow, these are pretty rare arent they? well those none here in england


----------



## Bill Pham (Dec 10, 2007)

wow those are great looking mantids. love to see more pics of them Yen.

Bill


----------



## Christian (Dec 10, 2007)

This species (which probably is *not* _elegans_), is difficult to breed. Most stocks die out after 2-3 generations due to a lack of males. The dimorphism is as severe as in _Hymenopus_, and if you don't have enough specimens, you lose all males before the females to be receptive. Despite this, the species needs rather elaborate climate requirements. All in all even more difficult than _Hymenopus_.


----------



## Orin (Dec 10, 2007)

mantida said:


> However, they look similar to C. gemmatus and P.O/W's when they get older.


Females of this species are large mantids, many times the size of _Creobroter_. The adults don't remind me of those species.



Christian said:


> This species (which probably is *not* _elegans_), is difficult to breed.


Are you saying _T. elegans _is not found in Malaysia?


----------



## Christian (Dec 11, 2007)

> Are you saying T. elegans is not found in Malaysia?


No.


----------



## Rob Byatt (Dec 13, 2007)

Christian said:


> This species (which probably is *not* _elegans_), is difficult to breed. Most stocks die out after 2-3 generations due to a lack of males. The dimorphism is as severe as in _Hymenopus_, and if you don't have enough specimens, you lose all males before the females to be receptive. Despite this, the species needs rather elaborate climate requirements. All in all even more difficult than _Hymenopus_.


Ditto. I only managed to breed mine for two generations. The first generation ootheca hatched very few nymphs, the second similar numbers and then the 3rd just didn't hatch :angry: 

You really need to pick out the males at 3rd instar and cool them to stand a chance with these.


----------



## Peter Clausen (Dec 13, 2007)

Christian,

Is this _T. elegans_?









I took these photos back in 2000-2001.

Peter


----------



## Christian (Dec 13, 2007)

I can't tell it from a photo. There are three species known. _Th. elegans_ has reddish hindwings. The ones with whitish hindwings, which were in stock some months ago, belong to one of the other species.

Regards,

Christian


----------



## yen_saw (Dec 13, 2007)

Oh thanks guys! I don't have many but those that arrived safely been doing great. Some have molted too. I am aware of the sex dimorphism for this species, which means male will mature much sooner. i am having fun with this species  they are very jumpy and very greedy on food too, they probably look like monster to all those flies :lol: 

This one is looking at his old shed  




























Christian said:


> This species (which probably is *not* _elegans_)


Christian, may I know how many and what species of Theopropus genus live in Malaysia, Cameron Highland to be exact. So the species discovery/recorded by Westwood 1832 in Malaysia is not _T. elegans_? Thanks.


----------



## robo mantis (Dec 13, 2007)

i love the abdomin color band thingys in the last pic


----------



## Christian (Dec 14, 2007)

> may I know how many and what species of Theopropus genus live in Malaysia, Cameron Highland to be exact. So the species discovery/recorded by Westwood 1832 in Malaysia is not T. elegans?


It's not as simple, as there were a lot of synonyms. Actually, 3 species are recognized, _Th. elegans_, _Th. cattulus_ and _Th. borneensis_. Officially, only the first is reported from Malakka, but the traders offer two species, _Th. elegans_ and one of the ones with white hindwings. I did not receive specimens for ID yet.

Regards,

Christian


----------



## yen_saw (Dec 17, 2007)

Thanks Christian. Melaka is not too far from Cameron Highland, Pahang but then different species can cohabitat in the same area at the same time too. I will let you know the hindwing color if by any chance any of my specimen mature into adult. Now that makes me wonder how many species were actually specified (scientific name) correctly in this mantis hobby  especially those species new in the hobby.


----------



## Christian (Dec 17, 2007)

yen_saw said:


> Thanks Christian. Melaka is not too far from Cameron Highland, Pahang but then different species can cohabitat in the same area at the same time too. I will let you know the hindwing color if by any chance any of my specimen mature into adult. Now that makes me wonder how many species were actually specified (scientific name) correctly in this mantis hobby  especially those species new in the hobby.


I meant Malakka = Malay Peninsula.

Many species in stock are falsely labelled initially.

Regards,

Christian


----------



## yen_saw (Dec 17, 2007)

Ah never heard of Malay peninsula as Malakka, and Melaka happened to be one of the state in West Malaysia too.  

Looking forward for these little creatures to grow up a little sooner. I can see a few females being larger than the rest now.


----------



## yen_saw (Dec 21, 2007)

Wanna share a short clip of this species eating a moth. I have a longer version but photobucket couldn't handle it bummer


----------



## spawn (Dec 21, 2007)

You and that damn fan, haha. What is that, L3? Very nice video. What species of moth do you use?


----------



## yen_saw (Dec 22, 2007)

Not sure what's the age spawn, probably into the 4th moult. That's waxworm s/he is eating.


----------



## Vulcain (Dec 25, 2007)

Hi all  

Some photographs of a sub female _theopropus elegans_

















This mantis is very nice


----------



## yen_saw (Dec 25, 2007)

Nice pics Paul  

I didn't cool down the male and as a result i have subadult male now. Females are still a good 2-3 moults away.


----------



## Vulcain (Dec 25, 2007)

thank you  

your two pics are nice too  

Yes it's the problem of this specie... my male died when the female is adult


----------



## yen_saw (Jan 4, 2008)

One of my female banded flower mantis moulted into subadult...yay! with plenty pf luck i might get a healthy breeding pair. My males are getting close to molt into adult soon. boy they are huge eyes!!


----------



## ABbuggin (Jan 4, 2008)

Yen, the adults are simply just AMAZING. The museum I work at has got these in before from Malaysia....the females are just GORGEOUS. The museum actually gets adults for $16 :lol: But it takes about month for the order to arrive....I'll HAVE to get some this year (if the museum will let me).


----------



## yen_saw (Jan 5, 2008)

Nice AB! Houston museum have them before as well, but the problem is that they usually don't last too long for exhibition.

One of my male moulted into adult this morning, now i can only hope the subadult female can catch up. Time for my "power feeding" again for the females.


----------



## macro junkie (Jan 5, 2008)

these have to be cutest mantid iv ever seen


----------



## Mantida (Jan 5, 2008)

ABbuggin said:


> Yen, the adults are simply just AMAZING. The museum I work at has got these in before from Malaysia....the females are just GORGEOUS. The museum actually gets adults for $16 :lol: But it takes about month for the order to arrive....I'll HAVE to get some this year (if the museum will let me).


What museum do you work out? I'm really tempted to go over and visit it. :lol: 

Ah, those big eyes on the elegans make them so adorable!


----------



## robo mantis (Jan 5, 2008)

Whats power feeding Yen?


----------



## yen_saw (Jan 5, 2008)

macro junkie said:


> these have to be cutest mantid iv ever seen


I agree  



mantida said:


> Ah, those big eyes on the elegans make them so adorable!


Yep  female has even larger eyes!



robo mantis said:


> Whats power feeding Yen?


So female tummy will always appear to be about to explode at all time


----------



## ABbuggin (Jan 6, 2008)

I work at the Musum of Life and Science in Durham, N.C.  I work in the insectarium and LOVE it.


----------



## spawn (Jan 6, 2008)

I remember someone was saying these are supposed to be hard to tell apart from P. oceletta, but, they've definitely got a beautiful tannish/yellowish color to them, and they look beautiful.


----------



## Mantida (Jan 6, 2008)

spawn said:


> I remember someone was saying these are supposed to be hard to tell apart from P. oceletta, but, they've definitely got a beautiful tannish/yellowish color to them, and they look beautiful.


I remember me saying that they look similar to P. ocellata a while ago. I guess I was looking at a bad picture of elegans, because they look nothing like ocellata at all with those colors and bulging eyes!


----------



## Mantida (Jan 6, 2008)

Double post, sorry guys.


----------



## yen_saw (Jan 21, 2008)

mantida said:


> I remember me saying that they look similar to P. ocellata a while ago. I guess I was looking at a bad picture of elegans, because they look nothing like ocellata at all with those colors and bulging eyes!


That's right Nola. For one, the spiny flower has the "9" on the wing while this species has "band" across the wing, thus the name banded flower mantis.

One of my female molted into adult recently, guess my power feeding works  could be lucky here if males live a little longer.
















Looks like the other two subadult female will also molt soon.


----------



## andy hood (Jan 22, 2008)

beautifull species yen good luck with them


----------



## Mantida (Jan 22, 2008)

yen_saw said:


> That's right Nola. For one, the spiny flower has the "9" on the wing while this species has "band" across the wing, thus the name banded flower mantis. One of my female molted into adult recently, guess my power feeding works  could be lucky here if males live a little longer.


That's great to hear!  

Yes hopefully the male lives longer. I bet some people here (including me) are itching to see this mantis up close and personal.


----------



## macro junkie (Jan 22, 2008)

we need this species in the uk..dont forget about me buddie if u pull this one off..  which im sure u will..how are yor idlos..any threat poses or new pics?


----------



## MikhailsDinos (Jan 24, 2008)

Yen, This species looks good! It's good to see that they are doing well.


----------



## Rob Byatt (Jan 24, 2008)

yen_saw said:


> That's right Nola. For one, the spiny flower has the "9" on the wing while this species has "band" across the wing, thus the name banded flower mantis.


The main difference is _Pseudocreobotra_ have pointed eyes, _Theopropus_ do not.


----------



## yen_saw (Jan 29, 2008)

macro junkie said:


> we need this species in the uk..dont forget about me buddie if u pull this one off..  which im sure u will..how are yor idlos..any threat poses or new pics?


Gez MJ, is early still i am not sure if i could pull this one out, especially when my work load pile up recently in the office and with all the travelling that doesn't help  but whenever i have the chance to care for them i will, wish me luck!



MikhailsDinos said:


> Yen, This species looks good! It's good to see that they are doing well.


Thanks Mikhails, guess both of us are busy and the only way to communte is via this forum :lol: 

I have an adult female about 10 day old now, and another two adult female just molted 3 days ago. If everything goes well i will try to pair them up this weekend. The species get agitated easily, i can only hope the male survive the mate. I think the males are ready now as they are already a full month old as adult.

The "charm" ones :lol: (don't ask me who is Phoebe, Paige or Piper!  )







She ate too much i think she had constipation :lol:


----------



## Christian (Jan 29, 2008)

What's the color of the hindwings?


----------



## yen_saw (Jan 29, 2008)

I will wait till they die before able to check the color, seems to put too much stress to hold them on and stretch the wing right now.


----------



## Christian (Jan 29, 2008)

It's really no problem. You just have to lift the forewings a bit and look if the hindwings are reddish or white. You don't even have to pick the mantis up. However, do what you think is best. It's not necessary to know the species ID for successful breeding, the 3 species apparently don't differ in their requirements.


----------



## yen_saw (Jan 29, 2008)

Ok i will check hindwings for both male and female when possible. Probably while they are feeding. Maybe a pic too if i get lucky.


----------



## Christian (Jan 29, 2008)

The female is sufficient. Males are too mobile for this. I don't need a pic, just the color.


----------



## yen_saw (Jan 29, 2008)

Well even the female is not very coperative, but i did stretch the wing and it appear the hind wing is orange/pink color, is that mean it is _T. elegans_? Here is a crappy pic with flash light and a female trying to escape, while i tried lifting her forewing. It was like having a 15-round boxing match, what a torture for both of us!!


----------



## Rob Byatt (Jan 30, 2008)

Exactly the same colour as the ones I was breeding last year and the year before.

One word of advice Yen, the males are VERY nervous when they see a female, but luckily the females are not that aggressive once the male is on her back (much the same as _Hymenopus coronatus_). Personally I'd leave it another week, it will do no harm to the males.

Rob.


----------



## Christian (Jan 30, 2008)

So this seems to be _Theopropus elegans_. I don't need the color of the male any more. The other species are not as easy to ID, as both have white hindwings. So good luck with the breeding of these ones. You will really need it.


----------



## yen_saw (Feb 2, 2008)

Rob Byatt said:


> The main difference is _Pseudocreobotra_ have pointed eyes, _Theopropus_ do not.


When first hatch, _T. elegans _eyes are as pointy as orchid or spiny flower mantis.  



Rob Byatt said:


> Exactly the same colour as the ones I was breeding last year and the year before.One word of advice Yen, the males are VERY nervous when they see a female, but luckily the females are not that aggressive once the male is on her back (much the same as _Hymenopus coronatus_). Personally I'd leave it another week, it will do no harm to the males.
> 
> Rob.


Male is always nervous at basically anything larger than itself. I didn't wait for another week but they mated out alright.






Took the pic right before they connect..yay!



Christian said:


> So this seems to be _Theopropus elegans_. I don't need the color of the male any more. The other species are not as easy to ID, as both have white hindwings. So good luck with the breeding of these ones. You will really need it.


Guess luckily it has red hindwing or there will be another round of guessing :lol: Glad this time the supplier was right and so Cameron Highland does carry this species.


----------



## Mantida (Feb 2, 2008)

yen_saw said:


>


Wootwoot, congrats Yen! :lol:


----------



## Andrew (Feb 2, 2008)

Congratulations! Looking forward to seeing the results.


----------



## yen_saw (Feb 5, 2008)

Thanks Nola and Andrew!! i am looking forward for the ooth, i have no idea how the ooth of this species looks like


----------



## Gurd (Feb 6, 2008)

Congrats mate

Best of luck with them


----------



## Rob Byatt (Feb 7, 2008)

Great news, lets hope you get a good hatch from each ootheca  

The ootheca is very similar to _Pseudocreobotra_ spp.


----------



## asdsdf (Feb 7, 2008)

Oh, wow...The male is so much smaller than the female. Congrats to you!


----------



## yen_saw (Feb 11, 2008)

Thanks Jasper! yeah female is easily 3 x larger than male, luckily no casualty so far from several pairings. The first female (adult since Jan 21st) finally produced an ooth recently after being mated twice. The ooth resembles a thinner version of orchid ooth but a good size nevertheless.












While taking pic for the ooth, the second female (adult since 26th Jan) is mating with another male  











Hopefully i can get a new generation from either one of the three females.


----------



## yen_saw (Feb 12, 2008)

My last adult female mated, don't know why it feels like a great relief


----------



## Gurd (Feb 12, 2008)

yen_saw said:


> My last adult female mated, don't know why it feels like a great relief


Bet its a bigger relief for the male :lol: 

Congrats mate, fingers crossed for the next generation


----------



## yen_saw (Feb 12, 2008)

Ha that's right Craig! :lol: I was relief too when i saw him alive hiding behind a leaf the next morning. I have separated them and put the female in her own cage as pic below.


----------



## Mantida (Feb 12, 2008)

yen_saw said:


> Ha that's right Craig! :lol: I was relief too when i saw him alive hiding behind a leaf the next morning. I have separated them and put the female in her own cage as pic below.


That's a very nice cage Yen,  , where did you get it and how'd you get the hole and mesh there?


----------



## yen_saw (Feb 13, 2008)

Actually that cage belongs to Dr. Yager, he let me "adopted" some extra mantis recently and sent the cage together with mantids. I have no idea where he gets it from. There is a hole on the lid, and aluminium mesh screen glued to the hole. I am sure in his lab there are plenty of this containers.


----------



## yen_saw (Feb 15, 2008)

My second female deposited a nice shiny ooth today!! Looking forward to see the hatchling. Finger crossed.











I am sure her appetite is back, she can eat a horse :lol:


----------



## hibiscusmile (Feb 15, 2008)

They are lovely Yen, I know you can do it if anyone can!


----------



## Mantida (Feb 15, 2008)

Monster ooth! :lol:


----------



## yen_saw (Feb 16, 2008)

Thanks, here is another monster ooth from the thrid female so each has layed one.


----------



## macro junkie (Feb 16, 2008)

hopfully this all goes to plan yen..cause if it does the summer time i want to buy an ooth..  this is an amazing species.


----------



## jarek (Feb 16, 2008)

macro junkie said:


> hopfully this all goes to plan yen..cause if it does the summer time i want to buy an ooth..  this is an amazing species.


yeah me too


----------



## yen_saw (Feb 16, 2008)

macro junkie said:


> hopfully this all goes to plan yen..cause if it does the summer time i want to buy an ooth..  this is an amazing species.





jarek said:


> yeah me too


Yes finger crossed guys, and if the weather permits. Also hope all the females are still around by then man. Suddenly i feel like i am not very optimistic


----------



## Mantida (Feb 17, 2008)

yen_saw said:


> Yes finger crossed guys, and if the weather permits. Also hope all the females are still around by then man. Suddenly i feel like i am not very optimistic


Aw c'mon Yen, with you they'll probably last a real long while. Don't doubt your awesome mantis raising skills!


----------

