# what is this



## moghue (Sep 2, 2014)

A friend of mine just brought me in this catipillar and it has what looks like eggs on its back. Can anyone tell me first what type of catippilar it is and what the heck is all over its back


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## JP77 (Sep 2, 2014)

That is a tomato hornworm and the white things on its back are cocoons from a parasitic wasp which will kill the hornworm when they emerge. http://www.vegedge.umn.edu/vegpest/hornworm.htm


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## moghue (Sep 2, 2014)

Thanks i kind of figured it was some kind of parasite, are they easy to get off or should i just leave it be.


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## soundspawn (Sep 2, 2014)

moghue said:


> Thanks i kind of figured it was some kind of parasite, are they easy to get off or should i just leave it be.


Depends on if you want 1 hornworm or if you want 150 wasps. I think you can pluck them off at this point, just get fine tweezers. Worst you can do is kill the hornworm, and if you do nothing he's as good as dead already.


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## moghue (Sep 2, 2014)

i think i will let nature take its course on this one.


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## dmina (Sep 2, 2014)

I think I would too...

but it was interesting to see...

Thanks for sharing...


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## soundspawn (Sep 2, 2014)

Hornworm log, day 17:

Sticky rice on my back still sticky. Heard rumor that it's not rice and I'm about to be eaten alive from the inside. Thought his new human keeper might help me out, but now he's acting detached. I'm sure this will all work out somehow.


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## dmina (Sep 2, 2014)

LOL... yeah... **it happens! survival of the fittest ... at it's worst...


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## Digger (Sep 2, 2014)

Hope the hornworm dies a slow death. They devastate my beautiful gymongous petunia hangers until the plants are flowerless straggles. I've fed a few to the mantids, but not completely sure how healthy these bastar## are for my pets.


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## moghue (Sep 2, 2014)

Yea i have become detached from him lol sometimes nature just needs to take its course


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## Sticky (Sep 2, 2014)

I would put into the freezer. I kill parasites when I get the chance.


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## soundspawn (Sep 2, 2014)

Sticky said:


> I would put into the freezer. I kill parasites when I get the chance.


It's funny apparently these hornworms are quite the pest and people revere these wasps as a godsend. Parasite or no, they are considered beneficial =D


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## moghue (Sep 2, 2014)

im def going to let them hatch out and release them around my garden and my wifes flower beds. i pretty much like all insects but i also enjoy seeing nature do its work.


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## Sticky (Sep 2, 2014)

Sadly the wasps attack other caterpillars that arent pests.


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## soundspawn (Sep 2, 2014)

Sticky said:


> Sadly the wasps attack other caterpillars that arent pests.


I'm not familiar with any "non pest" caterpillar, or even a method other than arbitrary/aesthetic that one could separate caterpillars in to two groups like that. Maybe the monarch?


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## Sticky (Sep 2, 2014)

The big silkmoths are non pests. They dont eat thier food like gypsy caterpillars do. Cecropia,luna, polyphemus etc live far from eachother and dont stip the trees. The cecropia is vulnerable to parasites as they only eclose and lay eggs once a year.the other silkmoths that have multiple generations a year are less at risk.


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## Mantis Man13 (Sep 2, 2014)

Caterpillars cause billions of agricultural damage a year, with only a few that are beneficial. Even though they grow into butterflies and moths which pollinate they do FAR more harm than good.

http://www.plumasnews.com/index.php/12840-caterpillar-invasion-sparks-wildfire-worries-for-plumas-residents#!/ccomment-comment356


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## soundspawn (Sep 2, 2014)

Mantis Man13 said:


> Caterpillars cause billions of agricultural damage a year, with only a few that are beneficial. Even though they grow into butterflies and moths which pollinate they do FAR more harm than good.
> 
> http://www.plumasnews.com/index.php/12840-caterpillar-invasion-sparks-wildfire-worries-for-plumas-residents#!/ccomment-comment356


I think I could just as easily accept silkworms as the sole non-pest as I could dismiss them outright since they can only exist in captivity. If they are dismissed, I think all caterpillars are pests. Or put another way, all caterpillars that can even possibly live in the wild are pests. The examples above I see as examples of where their damage is lower than "normal" because their population is under control, but their behavior is still pest-like.


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## Mantis Man13 (Sep 2, 2014)

Also, JP77 got his identification wrong. The caterpillar moghue caught is a Tobacco horn worm, not a Tomato horn worm. I see them all the time in my yard and just found a 3 inch one today. Here are the differences.

http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/4DMG/Pests/tomato.htm


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## Ranitomeya (Sep 2, 2014)

By the time there are cocoons on the caterpillar, the parasitic wasp larvae have already finished feeding and the caterpillar is likely not going to survive to adulthood. They chew their way out of the caterpillar, spin their cocoons so that they can pupate, and then eclose as adults. There are actually parasitic wasps that will lay eggs into the cocoons of the parasitic wasps that fed on the caterpillar in order to complete their own life cycle--I wouldn't be surprised if you noticed that something other than the wasp you expected to emerge came out of a few of those cocoons.



Mantis Man13 said:


> Caterpillars cause billions of agricultural damage a year, with only a few that are beneficial. Even though they grow into butterflies and moths which pollinate they do FAR more harm than good.
> 
> http://www.plumasnews.com/index.php/12840-caterpillar-invasion-sparks-wildfire-worries-for-plumas-residents#!/ccomment-comment356





soundspawn said:


> I think I could just as easily accept silkworms as the sole non-pest as I could dismiss them outright since they can only exist in captivity. If they are dismissed, I think all caterpillars are pests. Or put another way, all caterpillars that can even possibly live in the wild are pests. The examples above I see as examples of where their damage is lower than "normal" because their population is under control, but their behavior is still pest-like.


Caterpillars are not pests as long as there is equilibrium. Think of caterpillars and all other herbivores as nature's way of controlling plant populations and maintaining a more diverse population of flora. If any one type of plant gets out of control and takes over an area, the population of the butterfly and caterpillar that uses that plant as a host increases and lowers the population of that plant and helps other plants get the chance to return. This helps prevent certain plants from taking over and completely outcompeting others. The butterfly and caterpillar's population itself would be controlled by predators and the availability of the plant. As they decrease the population of host plants, their own populations naturally decrease--otherwise both populations become eliminated. In my mind, a pest is an organism whose services we fail to fully acknowledge or an organism that does more harm than good to the ecosystem.

Caterpillars are also important as a food source for a wide variety of organisms and one of the reasons why some types of caterpillars have become such pests is because we have either introduced them to an area where there are no insectivores that are specialized at feeding on them or because we've eliminated or severely decreased the population of insectivores. We've also helped them break out of equilibrium by planting huge fields of plants and created monocultures that give rise to abnormally high populations of herbivores that feed on those plants.


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## soundspawn (Sep 2, 2014)

Well clearly our versions of the word "pest" are not the same... but I submit if insects kill a 200 year old pine tree by nibbling on it, destroying the ecosystem around it, it deserves the title of "pest". You can champion them if you want, but arguing that in moderation they aren't pests is downright silly - it's a total non sequitur.

What's wrong with being categorized as a pest? That's a serious question, why is this a point of contention? Should we contact the USDA and try to have them drop caterpillars from their pest lists? How about all the pesticides designed to go after caterpillars, are they lying and/or providing a service no one wants? Are we killing beneficial insects by the thousands because we were all misled and really caterpillars are great for the environment?

I would urge you to not worry about the label; if you enjoy them as pets that is fine. There are plenty of pests, invasive species, even dangerous species of animals people enjoy keeping... but please don't try to redefine what is and isn't a pest when it's so obviously established. By your definition (equilibrium) nothing is a pest.

Miomantis caffra is an invasive species in New Zealand, and I love them.


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## Mantis Man13 (Sep 2, 2014)

You make a good point, Ranitomeya. Also, Soundspawn I have kept Tobacco horn worms as a pet before, I am not against that


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## mantisman 230 (Sep 3, 2014)

He was not talking about silkworms soundspawn, but members of the giant silk moth family, fortunately these are far less parasitized and are far fewer in number, I am currently looking for any of those caterpillars in the trees here in Virginia, as we have a good 75% of the giant silk moth species here, Cecropia moths prefer red mulberry leaves, and that tree species is quite numerous.


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## Darkrai283 (Sep 3, 2014)

I agree with Ranitomeya in that there is no way of saving the catty now that they've already spun cocoons on the surface. It means that the larvae have already eaten most of the catty and have alreay gnawed their way through the skin in order to pupate. What's usually left is a saggy bag which once used to be a caterpillar.

...I isolate and kill all cattys that come infected with parasitic wasp larvae as soon as I can. No chance on releasing the wasps back into the wild either. I breed moths such as the Actias and Attacus, and hawkmoth species and it would be devastating if they all got laid eggs in!


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## soundspawn (Sep 3, 2014)

mantisman 230 said:


> He was not talking about silkworms soundspawn, but members of the giant silk moth family, fortunately these are far less parasitized and are far fewer in number, I am currently looking for any of those caterpillars in the trees here in Virginia, as we have a good 75% of the giant silk moth species here, Cecropia moths prefer red mulberry leaves, and that tree species is quite numerous.


Oh my bad. I still haven't seen anything even remotely objective to call them non-pests though. And I still contend that there's nothing wrong with being a pest, it's just a name to describe a destructive insect/animal. Just trying to understand the opposing opinion.


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## Aryia (Sep 4, 2014)

I would........ put that thing as far as possible from my house x.x Having a gazillion wasps hatch in your house might not be the most pleasant thing in the world lol.


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## moghue (Sep 4, 2014)

im going to let them hatch out as i have a lot of bag worms( i think thats what they are called here) that destroyed on of my trees already. I dont use any chemical products to kill insects around my house. If you never seen an infestation of these catipillars infesting a tree its something you will never forget. Im all for natural pest control.


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## devetaki9 (Sep 4, 2014)

Thank you Ranitomeya for an intellectual and non-ignorant post


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## soundspawn (Sep 4, 2014)

That blows my mind


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## mantisman 230 (Sep 4, 2014)

regardless, parasitoid wasps are very helpful at getting rid of the more "undesirable pests" should we say, remember the jeweled cockroach wasps, they target pesky American cockroaches.


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## soundspawn (Sep 4, 2014)

mantisman 230 said:


> regardless, parasitoid wasps are very helpful at getting rid of the more "undesirable pests" should we say, remember the jeweled cockroach wasps, they target pesky American cockroaches.


Exactly, the worm in this story is the pest, and the wasps are a beneficial species. And moghue is the emperor who will point his thumb down to the worms pleas for mercy. Pests are destructive, and beneficial species eat pests. The wasps that infect ooths are not pests (unless you ask a mantis) but they are parasites, as one example. This is like a wacky world where no one uses the dictionary anymore lol


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## PlayingMantis (Sep 4, 2014)

When I was a kid, I found a similar worm with pupae stuck on its back. I attempted to remove the pupae, but I remember I saw wasp larvae wiggling out of the holes on the worm's back. Either way, the worm was doomed.


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## moghue (Sep 5, 2014)

I"m no emperor or am i trying to act like one. I just happen to let nature run its course. One of the problems is everyone trys to stop the natural orderof things and prevent mother nature from doing what she does. i know not evryone agrees with that and that ok. I just believe everything has its purpose and who are we to try and change that



soundspawn said:


> Exactly, the worm in this story is the pest, and the wasps are a beneficial species. And moghue is the emperor who will point his thumb down to the worms pleas for mercy. Pests are destructive, and beneficial species eat pests. The wasps that infect ooths are not pests (unless you ask a mantis) but they are parasites, as one example. This is like a wacky world where no one uses the dictionary anymore lol


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## soundspawn (Sep 5, 2014)

moghue said:


> I"m no emperor or am i trying to act like one. I just happen to let nature run its course. One of the problems is everyone trys to stop the natural orderof things and prevent mother nature from doing what she does. i know not evryone agrees with that and that ok. I just believe everything has its purpose and who are we to try and change that


Well this is embarrassing... I thought that was an obvious joke. The worm pleading for help, surely that's not taken literally :/


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## moghue (Sep 5, 2014)

No problem sometimes my getting humor is not the greatest. no hrm done.


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## soundspawn (Sep 5, 2014)

moghue said:


> No problem sometimes my getting humor is not the greatest. no hrm done.


It's okay, I'm imagining you in a toga with a laurel wreath while reading this a la Family Guy. I'm also pretty sure the worm has tiny hand crafted -gladiator armor on.

...Note to self, research patent and market demand for caterpillar armor...


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## moghue (Sep 5, 2014)

lol caterpillar armor now that would be funny to see


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## Mantis Man13 (Sep 7, 2014)

Ha Ha! Caterpillar armor! :tt2:


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## MantidBro (Sep 8, 2014)

Technically its a tobacco hornworm, just saying, lol. Tomato hornworms have arrows like this: &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on their sides, rather than diagonal lines like this: //// which is on the tobacco hornworm


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