# Vomit Frustration



## dgerndt (Mar 15, 2011)

Lately, several of my mantids have been vomiting. I wasn't surprised when one of my parthenogenetic mio nymphs vomited because I know these nymphs tend to be weaker and this particular one has vomited before and survived. What really shocked me was that one of my Ghosts vomited, A LOT. He's always been really healthy, up until a few days ago. So I did pretty much the only thing I can do; I cleaned his container and lid and fake leaves with warm soapy water and rinsed thoroughly.

But what I'm wondering is... Can a mantis "catch" an illness from another mantis? I had recently moved my Ghost next to the mio, and that's when he got sick.

Oh, and why is mantis vomit always red? :blink:


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## lancaster1313 (Mar 15, 2011)

My mantid's vomit wasn't red. :mellow: I have had beige and brown mantis vomit before, and I hear it is really bad if the vomit is black.

I have had a few Chinese mantids die from a condition where their vomit and frass stank really bad. It was after feeding them some gross crickets straight from the pet store. &lt;_&lt; Usually, I keep the crickets for a couple of days before feeding them to my mantids.

Sometimes mantids vomit if they eat too much. If your mantids appear ill or weak then stop feeding them for a couple of days and keep their containers as clean as possible. Maybe increasing their ventilation will help. I suppose it is possible that diseases can be passed between mantids. I would keep the sick mantids away from the well ones.I hope that you can help your mantids to get well again.


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## yen_saw (Mar 15, 2011)

Like what likebugs said overeating sometimes causing indigestion to mantis and causing it to vomit. The color usually turn black over the time. I have a group of chinese mantis together (experiment!) and eventhough one mantis mantis puke, i didn't see it passing on to other.







but you did the right thing cleaning it up. Stop feeding your mantis for the next few days, a few mist of water is fine but keep the mantis warm (above 80F). It could be fatal but from my experience most survived. My Texas unicorn did the same, was able to recuperate and continue to produce fertile oothecae.

Here is another pic of my gluttonous Sphodromantis fresh puke after eating too much. She is still alive but i have been watching her food intake since.


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## GreenOasis (Mar 15, 2011)

Amazing that they would overeat like that, huh? I have taken to looking at their abdomens before a feed. If they seem really distended = no food, mid-sized (for their size) then one or two small prey, thin = 4-5 small prey or 1-2 midsize or large. By checking each one before feeding, I have avoided any issues of over-feeding and the problems it causes. This does sometimes mean that one will not eat for a few days or more, but usually, when this happens it is because they are preparing to molt, so it's better for them not to be bothered by a fly buzzing around from me trying to force them to eat when they shouldn't.

I also don't put any new food in when there is still even one fly in the container, because usually, they are about to shed if they haven't gotten that one fly. (This rule doesn't apply to small nymphs eating fruit flies...for those, I only give more flies when there are &gt;4 remaining.)

I have also noticed with the Chinese nymphs that their abdomens become very distended before a molt and sometimes even "flop" like a bag of water. I assume this is from liquid retention in preparation for the upcoming molt. When I first saw it, I thought there was a bacterial problem and the nymph was going to die, but he molted a day or two later...so now I know! I have seen this happen in three large Chinese nymphs so far.


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## warpdrive (Mar 15, 2011)

Here are a few of my thoughts...

Like Carey, I feed mostly every other day for nymphs that are L4 and above. I do this mostly to prevent over eating.

I mostly feed Flys but once in a blue moon feed crickets and never have problems.

I did read that feeding crickets a gutload containing carrots will cause them to throw up...so I avoid doing so.

Not one mantid ever threw up more then a tiny amount. Probably from over eating. I am talking about a speck here, not some huge gross mess.

Yet to test this, I did feed my crickets some carrots for two days.

Sure enough I got a mantid to throw up A LOT.

I'm not doing that again. Regardless that I'll bet that not every mantis is that sensitive.

I just had a small group of wax moths hatch. At least you don't have to feed them.

Harry


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 15, 2011)

Actually, Carey, overeating in predators is not that rare. Angry farmers have often pointed out that foxes are truly malignant, because if they get into a chicken coop, they will kill more chickens than they can eat, where in fact they are leaving food that they could come back to, were the farmer not waiting with his shotgun.. The fact is that mantids just aren't really good predators. They wait far too long in an area that lacks prey before moving on, and they do not "sample" a new area for prey availability before settling down, so many spend a lot of the time in the wild in a state of near starvation. As a result, when an abundance of food does appear, they "make hay while the sun shines."

I was really glad to see Yen give the simple and accurate explanation of this phenomenon. It has been said that feeding crix to mantids instead of flies can induce vomiting, and it is true, I have proven it through experiments after coming back from vacation and finding vomit in some of the pots where I had left a few crix to tide the mantids over while I was away. It doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the crickets, though, simply that if several crix are introduced to a hungry mantis, it suddenly has access to a lot of meat and eats until it vomits. But as with humans, vomiting can be a sign of anything from the usual "upset tummy" to a rare case of fatal poisoning, and there are undoubtedly cases where mantis vomit portends death, though I think that they are rare.

And yes, you are quite right about mantids increasing the amount of fluid in the hemolymph prior to molting. It increases the internal pressure, especially when they contract their muscles. Both the "new" and "old" skins expand, and when the pressure is released, the stiff outer (old) skin tends to remain expanded, facilitating the molt.

You hafta love this stuff, eh?


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## sporeworld (Mar 15, 2011)

I've also wondered if feces has anything to do with it. When a mantis eats large prey, like a cricket, it's likely to also consume a large amount of feces - either on it, or from within in. Seems like there must be an upper limit to how much of that they can ingest.

And what makes the crickets better food items, once we've liberated them from the pet shop? Is it the (presumably) cleaner, or less crowded environment? Hydration? Or could it just be that rolling around in a plastic bag full of other crickets (and cricket waste) essentially bizzaro-world gut-loads them? They are now coated in feces, not bee pollen.

Similarly, I've wondered if a mantis eats a gravid female mantis, does the egg/larvae get eatten (probably)? But, what about the ooth material?

Thoughts?


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## GreenOasis (Mar 15, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> Actually, Carey, overeating in predators is not that rare. Angry farmers have often pointed out that foxes are truly malignant, because if they get into a chicken coop, they will kill more chickens than they can eat, where in fact they are leaving food that they could come back to, were the farmer not waiting with his shotgun.. The fact is that mantids just aren't really good predators. They wait far too long in an area that lacks prey before moving on, and they do not "sample" a new area for prey availability before settling down, so many spend a lot of the time in the wild in a state of near starvation. As a result, when an abundance of food does appear, they "make hay while the sun shines."
> 
> I was really glad to see Yen give the simple and accurate explanation of this phenomenon. It has been said that feeding crix to mantids instead of flies can induce vomiting, and it is true, I have proven it through experiments after coming back from vacation and finding vomit in some of the pots where I had left a few crix to tide the mantids over while I was away. It doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the crickets, though, simply that if several crix are introduced to a hungry mantis, it suddenly has access to a lot of meat and eats until it vomits. But as with humans, vomiting can be a sign of anything from the usual "upset tummy" to a rare case of fatal poisoning, and there are undoubtedly cases where mantis vomit portends death, though I think that they are rare.
> 
> ...


Angry farmers also often like to point out that cornsnakes are eating their corn, not that they are ridding them of a rodent problem! Sorry, Phil, but I grew up around rednecks!  (Then moved away, gained more of an open world-view, and moved back to redneck country!) LOL

I haven't ever fed crickets to my mantids...but I also have only had VERY few problems with vomiting (perhaps one or two mantids that I can even remember, though, there may have been one or two more than that.)

Could it not be that, because there is so much fluid in the crickets (versus flies or other prey items), it causes them to regurgitate the excess liquid? (Or perhaps causes loose/watery stools?)


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## GreenOasis (Mar 15, 2011)

Sporeworld said:


> I've also wondered if feces has anything to do with it. When a mantis eats large prey, like a cricket, it's likely to also consume a large amount of feces - either on it, or from within in. Seems like there must be an upper limit to how much of that they can ingest.
> 
> And what makes the crickets better food items, once we've liberated them from the pet shop? Is it the (presumably) cleaner, or less crowded environment? Hydration? Or could it just be that rolling around in a plastic bag full of other crickets (and cricket waste) essentially bizzaro-world gut-loads them? They are now coated in feces, not bee pollen.
> 
> ...


As mentioned...I don't feed crickets. But let me share the roach-related stuff: When I feed a VERY hungry large mantis a roach, they will eat it, frass and all. Nothing left! Not even so much as an antennae or foot. However, when the mantis has been fairly well-fed all along and is not super-hungry (or preparing to lay an ooth), they eat AROUND the frass and drop it like a sack of...well...you know!  I know that it's the gut contents that they're dropping cuz I've poked at it and recognize my roach chow all balled up inside of it! (Yeah, I'm goofy like that...pity my poor husband!)  

Seems to me that it would not be the mantid's ideal choice to eat a poop-encrusted cricket, but you know, crickets clean themselves like mantids, so...once brought home and given a bit of time, the cricket would clean itself up before getting eaten.

To get to the point, I think that mantids are all individuals and have their taste preferences like most animals. I have one popa female that eats roaches with relish...her sister will ONLY eat flies! So, if you have a mantid that enjoys an omelette, then yes, it would probably eat the other mantis, eggs an all! :chef:


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## dgerndt (Mar 16, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I thought that he may have gorged himself on crickets, until he vomited again the next day after not eating (granted, it was less vomit than before). He also had runny frass, along with some normal pellet frass. So I washed his container and whatnot again, and have been keeping a close eye on him. It's been a few days, and he was getting a thinner and thinner abdomen, until he ate a cricket today. I _think_ he might be better now. Also, my little mio seems to be doing all right. I fed her some fruit flies and she munched them up with no problem. But I had expected her to get better, because she has vomited before and been fine a day later.

On another note, I had a Gambian (Pseudoharpax virescens) ooth hatch and all but one of the twelve nymphs have died, with almost all of them vomiting red. It's been really frustrating. Everyone said Gambians are really hardy and easy to care for...


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## warpdrive (Mar 16, 2011)

With such off and on problems and then loosing a whole clutch of gambians, maybe it is your water? Is it tap?

Harry


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## dgerndt (Mar 19, 2011)

Nope, I use water with no chlorine, and has been sitting out for a few days to get rid of all the other bad stuff. I also use a spray bottle that has only been used for water.


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## sporeworld (Mar 19, 2011)

Are you using live plants? Garden soil?


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## warpdrive (Mar 20, 2011)

Deby said:


> Nope, I use water with no chlorine, and has been sitting out for a few days to get rid of all the other bad stuff. I also use a spray bottle that has only been used for water.


I'm in no way trying to disrespect michigan's water, but allowing it to sit overnight will not remove more then the chlorine. If it has some heavy metals or too much mineral deposits, it might be the cause of your problems.

Also, what sporeworld is getting at is that if using live plants they might contain chemical fertilizers or pesticides.

Clearly that could be problematic.

Harry


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## sporeworld (Mar 20, 2011)

That, and some are just wierd. All kinds of bio stuff oozing and billowing out of them. If there's not enough ventilation, the fumes alone can kill my silkmoth larve. So could be bad for nymphs, too.


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## Schloaty (Mar 22, 2011)

I had a mantis vomit on me when I tried to feed it a firefly. Took a few bites, dropped the fly, and through up.

I tried again, a few days (and a few regular meals) later, and the same result.

I haven't tried fireflies as feeders since.


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## dgerndt (Mar 24, 2011)

I use natural sticks from my yard, and clean paper towel as a substrate. Maybe I should start using purified water? I have a Brita filter; would that work?


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## lancaster1313 (Mar 24, 2011)

Our tap water is pretty bad here, I can smell the chlorine in it. They have been replacing pipes in the neighborhood and are treating the water frequently. &lt;_&lt; Sometimes it actually smells as strong as in a hot tub or swimming pool. I use a Pur filter that attaches to the faucet, it works well for the bugs and other creatures.  I also use a Pur filter that goes in the fridge for the dispenser and ice maker. I have filled up my misting bottle with both, and haven't had any problems. I think that a Brita would probably work just as well.


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## dgerndt (Mar 24, 2011)

All right, I'll try the Brita water and see how it goes. Thanks!


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 24, 2011)

Schloaty said:


> I had a mantis vomit on me when I tried to feed it a firefly. Took a few bites, dropped the fly, and through up.
> 
> I tried again, a few days (and a few regular meals) later, and the same result.
> 
> I haven't tried fireflies as feeders since.


Sounds like a good idea, but remember Albuggin's Cilnia humeralis pix? Here you go!

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14310&amp;st=0

@Deby: I honestly don't really understand how your mantids' problem can be water related. Mantids get most of their water from their food; when you mist your containers, don't you use distilled water to prevent carbonate blotches? Do you use relatively large amounts of tap water in peat moss for passive humidification? Am I missing something?


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## dgerndt (Mar 25, 2011)

What exactly IS distilled water: Not chlorinated? Purified? Bottled?

I ONLY use tap water WITHOUT chlorine, from a spray bottle that has only been used for water. I use clean paper towel as a substrate, with clean cotton balls to retain moisture. I add sticks from my yard for climbing, which I replace every month or so. I spray each enclosure 2 - 3 times a day, depending on if I expect a molt coming. I completely clean the enclosures every week or so.

I NEVER use water straight from the faucet for anything that may come in contact with my mantids or their food.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 25, 2011)

Yes. Distilled water has been evaporated and recondensed so that it contains no impurities at all. As I mentioned, those of us that use it for misting -- it costs about $1 gallon at your local supermart -- do so to avoid condensation marks (calcium carbonate) on the sides of clear plastic containers. Even if there were chlorine in your water, it would tend to be dispelled by the process of spraying. Chlorine, and its nastier cousin chloramine, tend to be a danger only to gill breathing critters like fish, where the chlorine irritates the gills. There is absolutely no evidence that I know of that the water could be a cause of your mantids' vomiting.

Are you still having a problem, or is it resolved?


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## dgerndt (Mar 26, 2011)

Thank you for the info, Phil! You're so helpful.  

My Ghost hasn't vomited since I cleaned his enclosure the second time. My remaining Gambian hasn't vomited since L1. But my mio seemed to have blockage in her abdomen (I could see a dark mass swelling mid-way), and died a few days ago. So I guess you could say my problem has been resolved.

By the way, I've still been using the same water as always.


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## Mr.Mantid (Apr 21, 2011)

Ugg one of my Ant mantises started to vomit a lot of red a few days ago, the next day it died. :angry:


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## dgerndt (Apr 21, 2011)

That sucks! :angry:


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## Mr.Mantid (Apr 22, 2011)

Deby said:


> That sucks! :angry:


Indeedly


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## dgerndt (Apr 25, 2011)

Did you try cleaning out your mantid's enclosure really well? Sometimes that can help.


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## Mr.Mantid (Apr 25, 2011)

nah i just threw it away, it was just a little plastic cup with cheesecloth on the top.


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## dgerndt (Apr 25, 2011)

Oh, that works too! I'm cheap, so I clean mine out and save them. xD


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