# Anyone else culture Waxworms for moths?



## CosbyArt (Aug 13, 2015)

I originally found some instructions on setting up a waxworm culture, here is the one I used for the basic food mix. I did however add beeswax to my mix and used cardboard with the paper peeled off one side as recommended elsewhere (can't remember where) for a area for them to cocoon in.

Here is my experience with the culture, and I'm on my 3rd generation all using the same food layer. I wanted to know if my results are typical, anything I can do to improve their life cycle speed (to always have moths), tips, and what to avoid? Also what is a better way to remove the adult moths as my newer container is much too large for tweezers (maybe some sort of sleeve)?



> Anyway I bought fifty waxworms (MantisPlace) to start my culture. The waxworms stayed on top of the food layer (about a 3" layer filling the container). They transformed to moths after making cocoons, and mated and all died rather quickly it seemed (as I never did use any as feeders to ensure they laid eggs). Soon after I started to notice a few tiny larva about the size of fruit fly larva.
> 
> After that they disappeared into the substrate I discovered (but never saw them), as I thought the culture died off, but I let it sit and then more cocoons appeared. The second round of moths were close to 150 or more starting about a month ago, a big increase from the first moth batch of maybe 20. I left them alone for awhile until I noticed mating and them laying eggs.
> 
> ...


Here are some photos of my culture from the 2nd generation, and the others are close-ups of the huge amount of larvae that are now in the culture 3rd generation (which the 2nd generation moths are still alive).

2nd Generation












3rd Generation


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## dmina (Aug 13, 2015)

I tried to do this with out good results... Somehow I ended up with seed moths I think?? I don't know how that happened?





Never did try it again..

Good write up Thomas


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## CosbyArt (Aug 13, 2015)

dmina said:


> I tried to do this with out good results... Somehow I ended up with seed moths I think?? I don't know how that happened?
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that. I know I remember you had a culture going but then had a mite outbreak and didn't hear what else happened.

If you had seed/pantry/Indian moths they must have invaded your culture, as the larvae in your photo are waxworms. Even if you did have a micro "fruit fly proof" mesh for ventilation the seed moths could chew through (as they can chew through cardboard/plastic cereal bags/food bags(zip-lock)/etc.).

You might try the moth glue traps placed on top of the culture, covering a large portion of the mesh, to stop invaders. A better way would be to find a micro screen made of metal so they simply can't get in.

The Plodia interpunctella moths are another I want to culture but can't find any locally (which is great for my pantry though). As with a proper setup/heat, they have moths in 1/2 or even a 1/3 of the time compared to waxworms.

The wax moths are a great feeder and all my mantids happily eat them, and recommend you give it another shot if you have the time. The only species I haven't feed them to are my adult Acromantis japonica as the moths are about the same size or even larger.  

If you do try them again you might want to give them a place to cocoon like the cardboard I peeled. They crawl up into the grooves to spin their cocoons, and some do it on the backside too. Lately they have been building more cocoons on older ones, another sign I need to increase the culture size.

A interesting note is the waxworms do better at 80 to 86 F degrees, I just keep mine at my room temp (around 74-76 degrees in the "bug area"); however, as the culture keeps increasing in size they are producing more heat themselves - which makes the culture do even better (a repeating cycle). Right now the culture container bottom feels like a warm power supply or the back of a old TV set left on all day (but the area the culture sets is nowhere near that warm).


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## CosbyArt (Aug 21, 2015)

As my waxworms had a population boom and the old container wasn't big enough - I made a big upgrade.  

I moved them to their new 66 quart tank today. The tank has two sleeves to easily get out moths, and are housed inside lid containers for extra protection. It has many other features, I plan to show a simple do it yourself guide (as I got plenty of build photos) later.

You can see the old tank food/cardboard on the bottom right of the tank - so tiny compared to the new setup. Should be enough room now that it can hold more than I could ever use.


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## Introvertebrate (Aug 21, 2015)

So its like a laboratory glove box?


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## CosbyArt (Aug 21, 2015)

Introvertebrate said:


> So its like a laboratory glove box?


Indeed it is, just on the cheap side.


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## Introvertebrate (Aug 22, 2015)

CosbyArt said:


> Indeed it is, just on the cheap side.


Well done.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 22, 2015)

I don't get the airtight container? Do you have air holes in it?


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## CosbyArt (Aug 22, 2015)

Introvertebrate said:


> Well done.


Thanks  



hibiscusmile said:


> I don't get the airtight container? Do you have air holes in it?


It isn't airtight, just fruit fly and waxworm proof. I use the insect sleeves to avoid any escaping as the waxworms crawl everywhere including the lid (same as the flying moths). There is ventilation on top, same as my smaller model.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 23, 2015)

The last one I made had a cloth lid, molded something awful. can you show pic of holes?


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## CosbyArt (Aug 23, 2015)

hibiscusmile said:


> The last one I made had a cloth lid, molded something awful. can you show pic of holes?


Sorry to hear that, sounds like the mix was too moist maybe.

I try to make my ventilation about 50% of the lid or so and it seems to work. As mentioned the bottom has aluminum mesh and the top is covered in organza fabric. The aluminum keeps the larger waxworms and moths from eating through, and the organza fabric traps the tiny waxworms so they can not escape either (and fruit flies can't enter either).

Here is a photo of the container during the construction. I have many others so if your curious ask - I will make a diy for it once I have time to sit and put it together and edit all the photos.


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## CosbyArt (Aug 25, 2015)

I got a unexpected day off today so I wrote up the DIY tutorial on my new 66 quart waxworm culture.


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## sschind (Aug 25, 2015)

Nice writeup, and the other step by step one as well. I'm going to try this but my biggest concern is the meal moths that have infested my bug room (and the rest of my house I'm afraid) They are so tiny they can get into the smallest of cracks so I would be worried that even with the latches and extra clamps I'd get a colony of them rather than the wax worms.

On the bright side my baby flower mantids were easy to feed. Just pop the lid off their cup, lift the cup to the moth on the ceiling (or the side of the mealworm closet or wherever they happened to be) and boom, fed for the day.


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## CosbyArt (Aug 25, 2015)

sschind said:


> Nice writeup, and the other step by step one as well. I'm going to try this but my biggest concern is the meal moths that have infested my bug room (and the rest of my house I'm afraid) They are so tiny they can get into the smallest of cracks so I would be worried that even with the latches and extra clamps I'd get a colony of them rather than the wax worms.
> 
> On the bright side my baby flower mantids were easy to feed. Just pop the lid off their cup, lift the cup to the moth on the ceiling (or the side of the mealworm closet or wherever they happened to be) and boom, fed for the day.


Thanks. To avoid breeding more meal moths I'd suggest you find some micro metal screen and cover the ventilation with it so they can not chew through (as organza fabric and such wouldn't deter them any). I've seen the micro screen online of course, but haven't had any luck finding it in my area, perhaps you can find some local.

Let me know how the culture goes for you.

That is a silver lining of the meal moth infestation - plenty of easy feeders. Too bad they are not as easy to catch and contain to avoid the pest problem.


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## Deacon (Sep 28, 2015)

I am finding a different worm and moth in my wax worm bin also. The moths are much smaller and their worms are skinny, small, and pinkish. We saw these worms in my son's bumblebee houses a couple of years ago. Decimated the bees just like the wax worms do. I'd feed them to an L5 or 6 T. sinensis if I had one. Meanwhile, they are escaping from the bin in the garage and some have made it into the house!

I did some work on my bin last night after watching the tutorial and I think the lid is ill fitting. I'm off to buy organza for a second layer over the air slots but what are those latches you use on the sides to hold them tighter--I think you called them spring-somethings??


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Sep 28, 2015)

Deacon said:


> I am finding a different worm and moth in my wax worm bin also. The moths are much smaller and their worms are skinny, small, and pinkish. We saw these worms in my son's bumblebee houses a couple of years ago. Decimated the bees just like the wax worms do. I'd feed them to an L5 or 6 T. sinensis if I had one. Meanwhile, they are escaping from the bin in the garage and some have made it into the house!
> 
> I did some work on my bin last night after watching the tutorial and I think the lid is ill fitting. I'm off to buy organza for a second layer over the air slots but what are those latches you use on the sides to hold them tighter--I think you called them spring-somethings??


Sounds like you have Achroia grisella, also called lesser waxworms.


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## CosbyArt (Sep 28, 2015)

Salmonsaladsandwich said:


> Sounds like you have Achroia grisella, also called lesser waxworms.


Thanks, that is what I figured too (and posted in my message here). Curious though, do you know if one waxworm has a faster life cycle than the other? They would be a much better feeder if I could get some generations staggered so I always have moths emerging.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Sep 28, 2015)

Well if you want staggered generations just keep some of them warm and some cool for varying lengths of time.


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## CosbyArt (Sep 28, 2015)

Salmonsaladsandwich said:


> Well if you want staggered generations just keep some of them warm and some cool for varying lengths of time.


Thanks, that is the plan once they get back to to the worm stage, right now they are sitting it out in their cocoons. Any idea how long I can leave them in a fridge that is about 38 F in sealed cups (I figure bait stores do why can't I)? I'm hoping at least a few weeks so the staggering will do some good.


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## Deacon (Sep 29, 2015)

I think I handle my worms differently. About two weeks ago, I threw 150 mature wax worms (the big white ones) that I got from my supplier (Crittergrub) into my bin. Most of them pupated in the food bed within the week. Very few of them spun cocoons. Last week, I went through the bin and collected about 60 pupae, put them in little jars with net covers and sat them on my kitchen counter where it gets warm under the lights. They started emerging as moths two days ago and I'm feeding them to the mantids..

I left the balance of the worms to finish their cycle in the bin. I have to admit that I rarely find cocoons (I came across six in the whole bin.) Even the worms that go through their entire life cycle in the bin just pupate. Wonder why? Makes a quick turn over


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## CosbyArt (Sep 29, 2015)

Deacon said:


> I think I handle my worms differently. About two weeks ago, I threw 150 mature wax worms (the big white ones) that I got from my supplier (Crittergrub) into my bin. Most of them pupated in the food bed within the week. Very few of them spun cocoons. Last week, I went through the bin and collected about 60 pupae, put them in little jars with net covers and sat them on my kitchen counter where it gets warm under the lights. They started emerging as moths two days ago and I'm feeding them to the mantids..
> 
> I left the balance of the worms to finish their cycle in the bin. I have to admit that I rarely find cocoons (I came across six in the whole bin.) Even the worms that go through their entire life cycle in the bin just pupate. Wonder why? Makes a quick turn over


That is indeed different. Any guides on rearing them that I've found all mention the waxworms making cocoons, and as you can see in my photo there is a large amount of them. Can't say I've heard of any that didn't either till now. I do know many of my waxworms also cocoon in the food (just below the top), so perhaps your waxworms just have them all buried.


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