# Identification Malaysia february 2012



## melano

Hi everebody,

I am in Malaysia since few weeks with Bartek...

We find this on our noodle soup yesterday...

Probably a Odontomantis or a Hierodula or it's just a stick insect


----------



## bauapaul

Seems to be a Toxodera spec.  

Do u have a pic of the whole?


----------



## melano

I crunched this one eating my soup and we release the 2 other ones


----------



## Bartek

They are so tasty

We have a lot of problems with identification them... I m sure they must be Odontomantis...


----------



## mmmantis

Could be heterochaeta sp but not sure without a full body pic


----------



## melano

there is heterochaeta in Malaysia ?


----------



## gripen

it is a male toxodera.


----------



## tier

Hi

As we cannot see if the Pronotum is bended or not, as a consequence we cannot say if this is a _Toxodera_ or a _Paratoxtodera_. Plus, there might be other genera of Toxoderidae in Malaysia, thus all we can say looking at this picture is that this is a member of the Toxoderidae.

regards


----------



## hibiscusmile

Hi Tier, missed you, sorry for stealing post!


----------



## warpdrive

nice photo regardless.

Harry


----------



## melano

Let's be more serious now  

We need help for identification and sexing... Help will be really appreciate  

If you need some specific pictures of any part of the body please tell us...

For Chrisp... I've had 7 times a heart attack... You know what it means ?  


























more pictures soon...


----------



## frogparty

OH......MY.....GOOOOOOOODDDDDD!!!!

I want one.


----------



## Mvalenz

All I know is those mantids look sooo cool! Please try to bring some to U.S. and bread.


----------



## Bartek

We trying but firstly we need some help... some one could tell us that they are males or females? In my mind they are both males...


----------



## melano

For now I'll call them species 1,2,3... and specimen A,B,C...

on my second post...

the first image with the meter (centimeters) will be the species 1 specimen A (S1-A)

the second image below will be the species 2 specimen A (S2-A)

now for the photos below... Species 3 specimen A (S3-A)
















now for the photos below... Species 4 specimen A (S4-A)











now S1-B
















now S1-B (left) and S1-A (right)






now S3-A (up left), S4-A (up right) and S1-B (down)






please don't hesitate to ask for specific picture of their body

For us they are all males but without any certitude and we think there is 4 species without any certitude


----------



## tier

Hi

So you have both: _Toxodera_ and _Paratoxodera_. If they came (flying) to a light (-trap) in the night, these will be males. That's why light traps are only usefull to get an impression of the species living in a habitat (because males will be fine enough for this purpose). On the other hand, in general, light traps in the night are useless to receive some females. That's why light traps are interesting for research, but completely useless for people who wanna breed them and produce some babies. However, all are adult and if some of these will lay ooth, you'll know you have some females.

regards


----------



## melano

Hi Tier,

Thank you for your answer  

We don't catch them... It was brought to us by villagers. I just sure than one at least (S3-A) was catches during the day. I don't know if they used some light trap...

Do you know exact name of each species ?

Cheers


----------



## tier

Hi

You are welcome.

Ohh, that is very good. So some might be females. You just have to count the segments on the ventral side of the abdomen - just like with all other mantid species. Or you can post pictures of the end of the abdomens (ventral).

Sorry, I cannot identify the species. But the ones with a bended pronotum should be _Toxodera_, the ones with a streight pronotom should be _Paratoxodera_.

http://tolweb.org/Paratoxodera/12927

http://tolweb.org/Toxodera/12928

But I am not even 100% sure that all your mantids belong to the two mentioned genera, as there might be other Toxoderidae in Malaysia.

http://tolweb.org/Toxoderidae/12759

By the way: If you are planning a google picture search with the species names for further identification, just directly forget it! Almost 100% of the pictures in Google are missidentified and labeled with wrong names!

Best luck!


----------



## melano

I have to take pictures of their abdomen but they are moving a lot when you manipulate them...

I tried already google... for toxodera and paratoxodera... it's a mess... I find several name for the same species lol

thank you anyway for your help


----------



## Bartek

Probably they 'll finish like a today dinner so if somebody want to rescue them... its last chance for that


----------



## hibiscusmile

I say the slender ones are males, and the thicker are females, but without the abdomen pic to hard to tell. But regardless, wonderful looking species, even if we never see them in person, it is nice to see pictures of them.


----------



## melano

Yes it really a pleasure for us to see them and making pictures.

We will try better and in nature images soon (when the rain will stop!) and for sure abdomen pictures.


----------



## bobericc

Amazing, hope you two the best in culturing any of these

So little is really known, about them, keep flooding the thread with pics guys


----------



## yen_saw

Malik, I will email you an article with keys for Toxoderinae species written by Roger Roy in 2009. It was great ID to that date although more species have probably been populated in Toxoderinae family. The article is in French which is great for you  and i am hoping you have the time to translate some portion of the text


----------



## MantidLord

And please keep us updated on their behavior too! A couple of members had these in the past but I don't remember what ended up happening to the specimens. Best of luck and great pictures!


----------



## brancsikia

Hi,

The genus with the curved pronotum is _Toxodera_.

The one with the very slim pronotum is _Stenotoxodera_.

The one witht the straight pronotum is _Paratoxodera_.

With the article that Yen sent it will be possible for you to id the species (if you need help please tell me).

For sexing them, pictures of the ventral tip of the abdomen are neccessary.

Congratulations!

brancsikia


----------



## brancsikia339

Did you just ask the villagers? Where were you in Malaysia?


----------



## Colorcham427

Malik, 

Could you leave the mantis outside in a well ventilated cage or cup with many holes? Put some place where no animals will get it and eat them, but make sure there are air holes so possibly if they are female, some males might flock to them? 

Also Malik, aside from I.D.'ing them, show some 

aborigines what mantis ooths look like. Hopefully they will bring back some odd looking ooths. I still to this day, have not seen a single picture of a Tox. ooth.
​


----------



## Bartek

Next one species collected...


----------



## melano

This time I died (almost) for true :angel: 

There is S5-1 (Fifth species, specimen 1) and... Let see the pictures first...

















We are almost sure... IT'S AN ADULT FEMALE !!!!

Bartek had to punch me several times to check I was still alive !!! (I have terrible bruises now lol)


----------



## Bartek

What you think guys? We 're lucky?


----------



## hibiscusmile

lol, that is funny, maybe both of you are dead! That is so awesome looking, makes you wonder if it is even real. You guys do nice camera work!


----------



## hibiscusmile

ps, you know who the first pic of this species looks like? you know the dummy on Jeff 's show Walter! LOL


----------



## melano

Ho thank you Yen for these precious documents and in french... just perfect for me  ... I'm waiting them hoping it help us... You really want I translate in english... lol ... I'm too bad but My (enslaved) universal language speaking friend Ben will do that  

By the way I want to thanks Yen for his precious time he spends to help us to identify the species we saw and his wise and valuable advices for this travel

I thanks also my two lovely  french friends Arnaud and Christophe (Arthropodia) who gives us lot of precious informations

I'm really happy to meet (not yet for Yen but soon) these persons who share their time and knowledges in the interest of all the breeders.

Soon more abdomen pictures for sexing the others specimens...

Thank also to brancsikia for the genus tips

So if I understand...

S1 ans S2 is Paratoxodera

S3 is Stenotoxodera

S4 and S5 are Toxodera

Am I right ?

The good news is that some of them eat some butterflies and seems quiet... We have good ventilated cages for them...

we are in Malaysian peninsula... we moving a lot... cameron highlands, penang etc...

Advices welcomed to help us maintaining them alive... we will release all the males (after pictures and video) but we will try to obtain some ooths from the females but for sure I'll not bring to USA any specimen (or any other mantids)... Don't want to have any problems with customs... sorry... I'm here first to make picture and video and I'm already totally satisfied to have this chance to see these beautiful species


----------



## EXOPET

but if the female gives you ootheca, then you could take back to USA for culture

Keep them in the shade with EXCELLENT ventilation and some twigs to hang from, a net cage would be ideal. I beleive they are moth eaters, so butterflies and moths are a good way to go. try putting some honey or pollen on the food for the female too, so she may make better ooths ( like orchids / idolomantis etc)

best of luck


----------



## melano

Hey Rebecca  

I'm sorry I don't know at all american TV...

What is the "the dummy on Jeff 's show Walter" ?


----------



## melano

Hi exopet

That's seems very valuable informations about moths... We will try that for sure  

About honey... I'm just afraid the honey stick to them... They seems so fragile... and we don't have pollen... I' try to find some...

We try to manipulate them as few as possible (only for pictures an video sequences)

the cages are the monarch cages (net) and we put twigs for them... they love to balance themself... hoping we don't see them


----------



## melano

I hope these picture are enough "ventral" ?

For S2






For S3






more news soon


----------



## gripen

Remember humidity, ventilation, small sticks, and a LARGE CAGE!


----------



## melano

Hi Gripen,

Thank you for your advices  

The cage are not so large... Hope it will be enough


----------



## gripen

I only say that because they can damage them selves maneuvering in small cages. A one foot net cage would be ideal


----------



## Bartek

So to be clear : we keep them 3 per one cage which is perfect for one..

Anyway, they seems to be quiet, only if we switch on the light they seems to be atracted. Probably they have to stay in shadow places. So, no one can sex the last one toxodera? Its female for sure?


----------



## agent A

The one with the red abdomen appears female

But don't quote me


----------



## brancsikia339

As gripen said, Toxoderas and Paratoxoderas need a LOT of room to live and moult. They'll probably only eat flying food.


----------



## brancsikia339

melano said:


> This time I died (almost) for true :angel:
> 
> There is S5-1 (Fifth species, specimen 1) and... Let see the pictures first...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are almost sure... IT'S AN ADULT FEMALE !!!!
> 
> Bartek had to punch me several times to check I was still alive !!! (I have terrible bruises now lol)


It might be a freshly moulted adult female. She is very lightly colored. Good luck!!!!


----------



## guapoalto049

Without doubt the citrus colored one is a female. Very neat specimens


----------



## brancsikia

melano said:


> Soon more abdomen pictures for sexing the others specimens...
> 
> Thank also to brancsikia for the genus tips
> 
> So if I understand...
> 
> S1 ans S2 is Paratoxodera
> 
> S3 is Stenotoxodera
> 
> S4 and S5 are Toxodera
> 
> Am I right ?


Yes and no  

My fault, S1 is _Metatoxodera_.

You got 4 genera!

Great!

Cheers


----------



## brancsikia339

brancsikia said:


> Yes and no
> 
> My fault, S1 is _Metatoxodera_.
> 
> You got 4 genera!
> 
> Great!
> 
> Cheers


4 genera? That's amazing!!


----------



## hibiscusmile

walter is the old guy with arms crossed.

http://blogs.ajc.com/radio-tv-talk/2009/12/24/jeff-dunham-interview-for-philips-arena-show-december-28/


----------



## hibiscusmile

Walter is the old man

http://blogs.ajc.com/radio-tv-talk/2009/12/24/jeff-dunham-interview-for-philips-arena-show-december-28/


----------



## hibiscusmile

http://blogs.ajc.com/radio-tv-talk/2009/12/24/jeff-dunham-interview-for-philips-arena-show-december-28/

walter is the old man dummy!


----------



## hibiscusmile

I give up, I tried it 3 times and it did not work, now they are all up there.


----------



## melano

Sixth species find... pictures soon

We begin to obtain very nice informations about what we have. Thanks to Yen with the article he send us (Even in french it's not easy to understand lol)... and Brancsikia who begin to determinate each species and sex...

More news soon  

Ps: Stop drinking Rebecca  lol


----------



## melano

So thanks to Brancsikia... there is the name of the species...

S1

Metatoxodera subparallela, B male

S2

Paratoxodera gigliotosi, male

S3

Stenotoxodera porioni, male

S4

Toxodera fimbriata, male

S5

Toxodera integrifolia, female

S6 to come


----------



## brancsikia339

melano said:


> So thanks to Brancsikia... there is the name of the species...
> 
> S1
> 
> Metatoxodera subparallela, B male
> 
> S2
> 
> Paratoxodera gigliotosi, male
> 
> S3
> 
> Stenotoxodera porioni, male
> 
> S4
> 
> Toxodera fimbriata, male
> 
> S5
> 
> Toxodera integrifolia, female
> 
> S6 to come


Can you interbreed the Toxodera integrifolia female with one of the toxodera males to produce an ooth?


----------



## agent A

brancsikia339 said:


> Can you interbreed the Toxodera integrifolia female with one of the toxodera males to produce an ooth?


A better idea would be to use the females pheremones and/or a light to attract a male of the same species


----------



## gripen

agent A said:


> A better idea would be to use the females pheremones and/or a light to attract a male of the same species


Darn! You stole the words out of my mouth!


----------



## agent A

gripen said:


> Darn! You stole the words out of my mouth!


Quod ego sum fur!!!!

Btw that's latin for "because I'm a thief" lol


----------



## melano

I already though about that... But if she just molded... she still not mature and she still not emit any pheromones. And we will be back before she'll be ready to be mate

On the other way... I don't think she just mold as the color and appearance of the wings don't change...


----------



## brancsikia339

melano said:


> I already though about that... But if she just molded... she still not mature and she still not emit any pheromones. And we will be back before she'll be ready to be mate
> 
> On the other way... I don't think she just mold as the color and appearance of the wings don't change...


Maybe you could ask the natives for a male version of her and they can take you and show you where they found them.


----------



## tier

Great!

I would also recommend the idea to put the adult female in a net cage or something similar and place her in the area where she was found. Just check the cage every morning at sunrise. You'll probably find some fitting males attached to the cage surface. Make sure the cage is safe against predators such as mice, and - even more important - save against ants! To make it ant-proof, place the cage on a tray filled with water! You won't believe how dangerous ants can be for a trapped mantis in the wild!

Best luck!


----------



## melano

we try but even if they find a "lot" of them... it's not easy to find them... I think the probability to find a specific male is weak... Then we have to mate them and it's a very "shy" species... We have to "hide us" as they don't feel comfortable when we observe them...


----------



## melano

we will try

the net is ant proof I think (too small hole).


----------



## tier

I wouldn't be sure. Thought the same once, but there are alway ant species that are smaller than the smalles holes! Ok, the small ants usually only eat dead things, but better take no risk!


----------



## melano

so I'll put sticky trap tape on the attachment :devil2:


----------



## tier

That might work excellent. Maybe a better idea than the water filled tray!


----------



## agent A

I had a wahlbergii die of constipation and a parade of ants came to the cage and...


----------



## melano

The fact is I'm vicious


----------



## brancsikia339

Ok. Are you gonna bring the toxoderas home regardless?


----------



## melano

no sorry...

I'll don't take any risk with the customs


----------



## brancsikia339

melano said:


> no sorry...
> 
> I'll don't take any risk with the customs


Oh. Were you planning to ship ooths?


----------



## brancsikia339

melano said:


> I crunched this one eating my soup and we release the 2 other ones


Wait... You ate them?!?!?


----------



## gripen

brancsikia339 said:


> Wait... You ate them?!?!?


I think that was a joke LOL.


----------



## melano

:tt2: French humor

so can I send the dozen of ooths for each 6 species to you brancsikia339 ? :stuart: 

I'll be happy to see even one infertile or empty ooth


----------



## brancsikia339

melano said:


> :tt2: French humor
> 
> so can I send the dozen of ooths for each 6 species to you brancsikia339 ? :stuart:
> 
> I'll be happy to see even one infertile or empty ooth


Lol you got me excited for a second :blink:  :clown:  inch: :tt2:


----------



## yen_saw

Glad to hear you have a great journey Malik. Sorry I couldn't be more help I wish i have given you a Malay dictionary so you can communicate better with the aboriginal people, but hopefully my suggestion on bringing along mantis pictures help. Same as you I will also be like a kid in candy shop with all the available mantis. Just enjoy the rest of your trip and have fun, don't stress up looking for more mantis. If you could stay till May-June I am pretty sure Orang Asli can find you any type of durians you like


----------



## brancsikia339

yen_saw said:


> Same as you I will also be like a kid in candy shop with all the available mantis.


1+

Who wouldn't be? Malaysia is an awesome hotspot for mantids. I'd really wish I could go there.


----------



## melano

I prefer Belgium milk chocolate shop  

My *pain *to not eating belgium chocolate is compensated by these "BAGOUS" mantids...

So the sixth species... Male I think (S6-A)


----------



## gripen

melano said:


> I prefer Belgium milk chocolate shop
> 
> My *pain *to not eating belgium chocolate is compensated by these "BAGOUS" mantids...
> 
> So the sixth species... Male I think (S6-A)


Hmmm. He looks like a she.


----------



## melano

I'll kill you if it's not a female now  :2guns: giving me false hope  lol

look nice at the end of the abdomen... the focus is not very good but there is more segment...

Waiting for any confirmation...


----------



## gripen

melano said:


> I'll kill you if it's not a female now :2guns: giving me false hope  lol
> 
> look nice at the end of the abdomen... the focus is not very good but there is more segment...
> 
> Waiting for any confirmation...


I can pretty much guarantee that it is a female.


----------



## melano

OMG are you sure 100%

I think I count 8 segments...

I though female be little more bigger also like S5-A

Now I'll not be able to sleep... Thank you Gripen lol


----------



## brancsikia339

melano said:


> look nice at the end of the abdomen... the focus is not very good but there is more segment...
> 
> Waiting for any confirmation...


So I'm looking close at the abdomen. At first it looks like a female, but if you look closely, There is an extra segment, indicating it is a male.


----------



## warpdrive

while I only was watching this thread and not posting, I feel the need to say a few things that may help you.



melano said:


> we try but even if they find a "lot" of them... it's not easy to find them... I think the probability to find a specific male is weak... Then we have to mate them and it's a very "shy" species... We have to "hide us" as they don't feel comfortable when we observe them...


you can do a few things to help with shy mantids...

you can make a "blind" to view them while they can't see you. just take a tarp or bed sheet and make a hole in it, just large enough to view and photograph the mantids.

if this is impractical or not worth the time and effort, then keep the bottom of the cages at a hight that is above your shoulders...yet still low enough to view them.

my shy mantids were far less scared of me when they were above me.

as for ants...

don't take chances if you try to attract males to the females cage. ants will find a way to enter the cage. STICKY TAPE WONT WORK!

the ants that get stuck will just turn out to be a "BRIDGE" that will help the other ants cross to the cage/mantis.

tray of water works for the most part and should be used all the time.

I lost an anole thinking that ants cant cross tape.

Harry


----------



## brancsikia339

melano

if possible, could u post pics of the cages you keep the toxoderas and paratoxoderas in?


----------



## gripen

brancsikia339 said:


> melano
> 
> if possible, could u post pics of the cages you keep the toxoderas and paratoxoderas in?


+1


----------



## brancsikia339

gripen said:


> +1


I'd love to see what they're keeping them in. Hopefully they're still ok!!!


----------



## melano

the cages are the same find on mantisplace.com

Butterfly Cube 13" X 13" X 13" (http://mantisplace.com/mantisnursery.html)... a little small for here but we never imagine find some Toxoderas...

Hey Warpdrive... we do that  we put a bed sheet between them and us  

One male died but it was injured... every body else are fine and the female eat her first small butterfly... refusing bee, moth or too big butterflies.

Her color not changed... same appearance so I hope she was already mated  . Her stomach full on the opposite of the males... let we see...

My battery charger is broken... so perhaps I have to make a "quick" go and back to Kuala Lumpur


----------



## melano

So who is right now ? gripen or brancsikia339 ?

Where is my whip ? :devil:


----------



## gripen

AHHHH don't hurt me! I think I'm right...


----------



## brancsikia339

Umm... Umm... Umm... I still think S6 is a male


----------



## warpdrive

melano said:


> So who is right now ? gripen or brancsikia339 ?
> 
> Where is my whip ? :devil:


if I had to put money on it, I would say that Gripen is correct.

but my vote doesn't count because I'm not into S&amp;M and I don't like whips. :clown: 

my best wishies for you to keep finding some good food for her to eat.

above all, thank you so much for the great photos.

Harry


----------



## Colorcham427

Hey Malik I am so happy to see so many updates!

Guys, Bartek is dealing with the mantis, I suggest you contact Bartek if you have interest in buying any malaysian species.  

Malik is there for documenting...

I posted a picture of that flower mimicking looking sp. I was told by a friend where I discovered the picture that the female was freshly molted and unfortunately darkens. Only time will tell if that specimen remains a flower mimicking mantis... Let's hope as most are dead leaf mimickers!!!!

Malik, have you noticed any of the females releasing their lady farts? Lol AKA pheromones  . If you notice more than 1 then I recommend keeping those two females as far a part as possible as some males flock to different species when they are horny!

Let's all hope for the best!

Although I am not surprised you're keeping them in net cages, considering they are already in a super humid location, what have you been relying on a method of watering them? Rain spells?

For any Malaysian sp that I keep I use a drip system. Like chameleons, I've noticed these malayasian mantids are truly stimulated by moving droplets and respond well.

I've actually done an experiment and my dead leaf and orchid all hang around the leaves that have moving water dripping from them.

These Malaysian mantids are without a doubt heavy drinkers!

I'm not sure how easy it is to catch flying insects? But if it's difficult I suggest surrounding yourself with some plants that attract butterflies.


----------



## Colorcham427

Sorry double post due to cruddy iPod.... I also recommend offering them ground dwelling insects. See what they prefer...

They have very lanky arms, but for what reason? To snatch a flying insect from a distance? Or to hang upside down and have a nice reach for a ground insect? I hope you can find out where they hang out. If they are in the shade, I am assuming they are either low to the floor of the forest, or some place deep inside a heavy foliaged tree with bark climbing insects to feed on..

I am soooo fascinated! This thread is crazy fun to check back to! Thanks Malik and Bartek!


----------



## brancsikia339

Oh sorry... I was looking at the wrong pic! :sweatdrop: That one is definitely female.


----------



## gripen

brancsikia339 said:


> Oh sorry... I was looking at the wrong pic! :sweatdrop: That one is definitely female.


Here comes the whip. long and painful whip...


----------



## brancsikia339

gripen said:


> Here comes the whip. long and painful whip...


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO  inch:


----------



## melano

Yes !!! I just find my poisoned spiny whip !!!

Can you please provide me your address brancsikia339 ?

Ok about news only some males eats and the female only eat 1 small butterfly

I begin to worry for her... Any more suggestion for food... I tried moths, butterflies, flies, bees... She seems fine and full but I would prefer if she eats more


----------



## Colorcham427

Offer her something like a katydid...

How are you hydrating them?

Offer them a short time of freedom to explore some space to regulate their own body temp.

A short time of freedom = close watch! :0


----------



## melano

I use a sprayer (indirect)

I'm almost sure she will not eat katydid...and even can be dangerous... I saw how they have problem to hold a butterfly when they catch one...

I'm thinking to use small dragonfly but they are also predator so for now I dont want to try. Trying to find bigger flies

She stay quiet and don't move too much... I try also to not manipulate her too much... lot of stress each time...


----------



## Colorcham427

Yeah I understand, she is WC. She isn't used to human contact at all! lol

Not even a small katydid, non-adult?

I would try dragon flies too, as they hover and are serious stimulating feeders! lol


----------



## brancsikia339

You should try anything large and flying. There are a lot of choices, especially in Malaysia, but in any case, there are many flying insects. Try setting up a light trap at night to attract the insects. It's really easy and effective. All you have to do is: 1. Get any light source and hang is or support it in the air. 2. Get a large white sheet and shine the light on it. 3. Watch the insects fly to it!!! Here's a video of some people doing this in Malaysia:

It's really crazy what you could find!!


----------



## agent A

Love the Samia spp in part 1!!!


----------



## brancsikia339

agent A said:


> Love the Samia spp in part 1!!!


It's so awesome! I wish I could be doing that!


----------



## agent A

brancsikia339 said:


> It's so awesome! I wish I could be doing that!


I blacklit in my backyard last summer and caught some cool stuff but got bitten by huge beetles and stalked by a raccoon 3 times


----------



## yen_saw

melano said:


> I prefer Belgium milk chocolate shop
> 
> My *pain *to not eating belgium chocolate is compensated by these "BAGOUS" mantids...
> 
> So the sixth species... Male I think (S6-A)


Looks like female Malik.This is the Heterochaeta sp sexing guide which may help


----------



## gripen

Hahah thats what I looked at!


----------



## brancsikia339

agent A said:


> I blacklit in my backyard last summer and caught some cool stuff but got bitten by huge beetles and stalked by a raccoon 3 times


LOL!!!!


----------



## Colorcham427

+1,000. lol


----------



## brancsikia339

yen_saw said:


> Looks like female Malik.
> 
> This is the Heterochaeta sp sexing guide which may help


Thanks Yen. You always come through. This'll definitely help us identify the toxoderas.


----------



## brancsikia339

The reason I thought it was a male is because it looks like there is an extra segment. Here is the uploaded pic


----------



## gripen

brancsikia339 said:


> The reason I thought it was a male is because it looks like there is an extra segment. Here is the uploaded pic


I saw that as well. Idk.


----------



## brancsikia339

Well, only time will tell.


----------



## brancsikia339

Malik, I found a pinned specimen of Sp. 5 (the citrus female) It is listed as toxodera sp., so it isn't a definitive species yet. Nice! Here's a pic of a fully grown female. Pretty similar to yours, huh? It's kinda faded.


----------



## melano

Hi everybody

Thank you Yen for this confirmation for S6-1 and these great explanation with Heterochaeta pictures  

I still have a small doubt but... We had perhaps the male of the "female" S6... to be confirmed.... more pictures soon

Hey brancsikia339 still waiting your address  . Otherwise nice picture you find of dead specimen... I think also it's the S5 female... except for the color of course...

I'm almost sure the S5 female eats 2 half of butterflies... but not in front of us (we find 2 butterflies body half eaten)

That's it ...


----------



## brancsikia339

melano said:


> Otherwise nice picture you find of dead specimen... I think also it's the S5 female... except for the color of course...
> 
> I'm almost sure the S5 female eats 2 half of butterflies... but not in front of us (we find 2 butterflies body half eaten)
> 
> That's it ...


The mantis I found was dead, so I would think that necrosis darkened the color. Still, it's a pretty close match.


----------



## brancsikia

melano said:


> I still have a small doubt but... We had perhaps the male of the "female" S6... to be confirmed.... more pictures soon


Unfortunately I doubt that as well. I think S6 A is a male of _Stenotoxodera pluto_.


----------



## brancsikia339

brancsikia said:


> Unfortunately I doubt that as well. I think S6 A is a male of _Stenotoxodera pluto_.


Thank you. Looks like I got it right, melano. Sooooo... Who's getting it now? :tt2:


----------



## melano

I don't know... So I have to punish (with my spiny whip) Both of you and even perhaps Yen and Branckisia... I decided to feed a Gonypeta female with S6-A specimen


----------



## yen_saw

Ah bring on the whip Malik! :helpsmilie: it does look like extra segments as B. 339 stated. Thanks Kai for the confirmation.


----------



## brancsikia339

melano said:


> I don't know... So I have to punish (with my spiny whip) Both of you and even perhaps Yen and Branckisia... I decided to feed a Gonypeta female with S6-A specimen


Hey! Punish them, not me! I got it right! Oh yeah!


----------



## brancsikia339

Any updates? Any more toxoderas? How are they doing?


----------



## melano

Some very quick news... Some males unfortunately dies but the female still alive and seems fine even if she eats very few...

We saw how they catch small butterflies and even for small butterflies... they seems to fight vigorously to eat them... I even see a male releasing his prey...

I'll do probably a new picture session tomorrow for the female...


----------



## ismart

melano said:


> Some very quick news... Some males unfortunately dies but the female still alive and seems fine even if she eats very few...
> 
> We saw how they catch small butterflies and even for small butterflies... they seems to fight vigorously to eat them... I even see a male releasing his prey...
> 
> I'll do probably a new picture session tomorrow for the female...


Why don't you guys try feeding them some smaller food items. Like lets say house, or greenbottle flies. Maybe they won't have such a hard time subduing, and eating them. Even the smallest of butterflies have large wings in comparison to there body size.


----------



## brancsikia339

Can't wait for the pics!!


----------



## brancsikia339

melano said:


> Some very quick news... Some males unfortunately dies but the female still alive and seems fine even if she eats very few...
> 
> We saw how they catch small butterflies and even for small butterflies... they seems to fight vigorously to eat them... I even see a male releasing his prey...
> 
> I'll do probably a new picture session tomorrow for the female...


Which males died?


----------



## melano

Hi Ismart,

Of course we tried every thing... big, medium, small flies, big mosquitoes, moths of all types, different size of grasshopper, bees, wasp, cockroaches... to be honest we tried lot of things... Finally they always eat only small butterflies... ignoring the rest... If you have any new idea of original food (we can find here)

I'm more convinced now that the stress 'kills them" as the males who died was the ones I take in pictures and manipulate... but still just an hypothesis...

Female still nice... crossing the finger...

Please be sure we do the best than we can with what we have as we are not at "home" with everything available but of course I have to film her... trying always to be very kind and precocious...

For the peoples who send us by messages... We don't have any Toxodera's ooths... we don't sell 15 dollars each ooth and *IF* we obtain 1 ooth even infertile... it will be wonderfull... And we will never sell it... for 15 dollars or even for 1000 dollars  

For the same peoples who said that we don't know how to do and if we send them the female... they will breed her very easily... I just say... Welcome to Malaysia  Just come join us and I will give her for free ... with the promise they share the first ooth  

(This message is of course not for you Ismart  )

Cheers


----------



## ismart

melano said:


> For the same peoples who said that we don't know how to do and if we send them the female... they will breed her very easily... I just say... Welcome to Malaysia  Just come join us and I will give her for free ... with the promise they share the first ooth
> 
> (This message is of course not for you Ismart  )
> 
> Cheers


Wow! Some people actually said that? How disrespectful! :angry: Honestly you guys did not even have to start this cool thread. You could have just kept quiet. And your right! The people who talk smack should take a trip to Malaysia and see just how easy it is?  

Maybe the local people can show you where some were found? Check out the vegetation there were found on. Maybe it will hold a clue to what they are mostly eating?


----------



## guapoalto049

Great thinking, Paul. If you guys haven't already, you should ask many locals. They of course know more about the habitat than us outsiders do! Maybe observe one for a few hours in the wild if you get the time. Congrats on everything thus far, it is an accomplishment!


----------



## brancsikia339

Asking the experts is the best idea, especially for these. Good luck on finding any more!


----------



## lunarstorm

melano said:


> For the same peoples who said that we don't know how to do and if we send them the female... they will breed her very easily... I just say... Welcome to Malaysia  Just come join us and I will give her for free ... with the promise they share the first ooth


Wow, someone dared to say that? Sounds like a trollish scam to me but regardless I hope you can ignore the few bad apples around here.

Thanks for starting this great thread and for posting pictures of such a cool species!


----------



## MantidLord

Keep up the good work guys. Use all available resources to find out more about these guys.

As for the people sending messages: Another example of some idiots wanting to take the the cool, new species out of their habitat without even knowing how to take care of them.


----------



## brancsikia339

MantidLord said:


> As for the people sending messages: Another example of some idiots wanting to take the the cool, new species out of their habitat without even knowing how to take care of them.


+1


----------



## frogparty

If all they want is butterflies there's not much hope for captive propagation!!


----------



## brancsikia339

Malik, I found the answer to your mystery S5 female. She is a female toxodera denticulata. Here's a picture of another one, this one male.


----------



## brancsikia

brancsikia339 said:


> Malik, I found the answer to your mystery S5 female. She is a female toxodera denticulata. Here's a picture of another one, this one male.


Hi other brancsikia 339,

So what´s not fine with the identifications posted?

S1

_Metatoxodera subparallela_, B male

S2

_Paratoxodera gigliotosi_, male

S3

_Stenotoxodera porioni_, male

S4

_Toxodera fimbriata_, male

S5

_Toxodera integrifolia_, female

S6

_Stenotoxodera pluto_, male

Cheers


----------



## brancsikia339

Oh. I just was confused because I've seen pictures of this sp. look differently. Just trying to find the best match. Also I never saw the post about the various species


----------



## warpdrive

frogparty said:


> If all they want is butterflies there's not much hope for captive propagation!!


why? all you have to do is be well prepared in advance.

yet I'm also sure that they will eat other things. it's just not all that easy to find out in the wild.

Harry


----------



## melano

An another day and the female still alive  

To be honest I don't sleep very well probably thinking too much about her lol

I even make a dream where I was happy because she died so I felt released by the pressure to maintain her alive.

I think in the improbable case where she makes an ooth and the ooth hatched... I think it will be easier to make them adapted to some more accessible food as big flies, bees, waxworm butterflies (not sure it's the good translation)

But for now... just cross fingers she stay alive. I heard from somebody here who try to breed them that they also mutilate themself in captivity... eating their own legs and one of the male who died was lost 2 legs... don't finding any rest... that's perhaps confirm the stress behavior. It's also possible that it's because they starving but I don't think so as the males eats "normally" for me

About where they have been catch... no informations (i don't speak malay and they don't speak english) except they use very long stick

We try also to release and see one male to see what he do... They fly very well  lol

Cheers


----------



## Colorcham427

Hope you can get one of the natives to communicate. It would be interesting to find out where most toxodera are found, and if they have a preferred place to post up at/in.

Malik,

1. Do they stay in secluded area? I'm assuming these animals are territorial, but I cannot follow thru with this opinion 100% due to the fact that all wild collected insects are stressed from human interaction... This is very frustrating, working with full grown adult mantis, that have never been contacted with humans before, and now they are in tiny cages...

2. Have you noticed any of them hiding from you? I'm assuming you provided them plenty of hiding areas in their cages?

3. Would you consider making a mantis leash lol? Example: wire/thread, and connect it to the mantid's bottom part, so they have no option to bite thru the material. Give the animal 20+ feet of string for freedom to roam and possibly find it's own territory where it feels unseen and in privacy. This might give you some leads to evidence of their "all around" behavior. You can then sneakily figure where it's relocated itself at and observe it.


----------



## brancsikia339

Brian Aschenbach said:


> 3. Would you consider making a mantis leash lol? Example: wire/thread, and connect it to the mantid's bottom part, so they have no option to bite thru the material. Give the animal 20+ feet of string for freedom to roam and possibly find it's own territory where it feels unseen and in privacy. This might give you some leads to evidence of their "all around" behavior. You can then sneakily figure where it's relocated itself at and observe it.


That's a really funny idea!


----------



## melano

1- from the beginning we left them hided from us... After a photo session... they move a lot in their cage for hours...

2- Just trying to run away from us as far as possible... Even if now I think the female are more quiet...

3- I tried that when I was younger... the mantid become crazy and try eating the leash

MIRACLE... She eat an entire butterfly lol  



> 1. Do they stay in secluded area? I'm assuming these animals are territorial, but I cannot follow thru with this opinion 100% due to the fact that all wild collected insects are stressed from human interaction... This is very frustrating, working with full grown adult mantis, that have never been contacted with humans before, and now they are in tiny cages...
> 
> 2. Have you noticed any of them hiding from you? I'm assuming you provided them plenty of hiding areas in their cages?
> 
> 3. Would you consider making a mantis leash lol? Example: wire/thread, and connect it to the mantid's bottom part, so they have no option to bite thru the material. Give the animal 20+ feet of string for freedom to roam and possibly find it's own territory where it feels unseen and in privacy. This might give you some leads to evidence of their "all around" behavior. You can then sneakily figure where it's relocated itself at and observe it.


----------



## brancsikia339

I think the problem is that these mantids, never in touch with humans, are living with them. They are probably just scared. Hopefully they'll eventually calm down


----------



## melano

An another medium butterfly eated today


----------



## EXOPET

sounds like she is preparing to produce an ooth?


----------



## brancsikia339

That would be amazing. Did you find anymore, Malik?


----------



## warpdrive

melano said:


> An another medium butterfly eated today


if she didn't eat for a few days, and now it looks like she is eating well, then my guess is that she just molted to adult just before you got her.

or like some adults, she might not eat every day, but now is hungry because she is making eggs.

regardless, I wish you lots of luck in finding plenty of food for her.

oh, and if you can post a picture of her eating a butterfly you will make a lot of people happy here in the US.

Harry


----------



## melano

Thanks to branckisia and Yen, I'm able to recognize at least males from females... No more females until now...

Still thinking she wasn't just mold... but without certitude...

For the first time I saw her catch the butterfly and eating him but I have to spy her behind a towel... so I'll not try to take picture of her when she's eating... sorry... I would love so much film her catching a butterfly !

when she see us... she begin to move... I decided no more try to make pictures or videos as lot of males died after a photo session and she's very difficult to film (pendulum mouvement make almost impossible with the equipment I have here to follow the focus)... Will try the last day before release her if still alive and before leaving Malaysia...


----------



## warpdrive

I fully understand.

Harry


----------



## brancsikia339

any updates, malik?


----------



## melano

Hey

She eats between 1 to 3 medium butterflies per day... But I'm not sure it will be enough to obtain an ooth in good time before we go back...


----------



## Colorcham427

Malik, is it possible to leave your 50,000.00 camera unattended and have the mantids filmed without you being there? Lol

What's the altitude where you're at Malik? How far away are you from where the mantids are taken from? Big difference?


----------



## melano

Hi,

I have now idea of altitude and we were on different places... around 30... Cameron Highlands is very "big"

Sad day today  we release the femelle Toxodera... She was eating well but no ooth in time and very few chance she can survive at Kuala Lumpur.

But at least we had this chance to see them and take lot of pictures and after all it's already much more I was expecting before I come in Malaysia.

Thank you for your help and your following


----------



## warpdrive

it is always sad to have to come back home from any vacation/holiday.

while you have not reached all of your goals, I'm sure you are happy with what you got out of your trip.

I also want to thank you for all of your time and photos that you posted on here. you are the best.

Harry


----------



## ismart

I'm sure just to see all those mantids in the wild, and animal life itself. Was well worth the trip!


----------



## guapoalto049

+1. I think seeing a mantid in its natural habitat would be even more rewarding, sad to say but I have dreams of seeing wild orchids, Toxodera, Choeradodis, etc.


----------



## brancsikia339

You must of had an awesome time. Even though you had to let her go, it is still amazing that you even got to see such a rare mantis. Thank you for keeping us posted!


----------



## brancsikia339

guapoalto049 said:


> I have dreams of seeing wild orchids, Toxodera, Choeradodis, etc.


+1 Wow me 2!


----------



## gripen

Yes thank you. Your finds still amaze me! Good luck with your film.


----------



## Colorcham427

I think it's safe to speak for the whole community when I say we all thank you for your time and beautiful pictures Malik!


----------



## Precarious

Wow... How did I miss this thread? What an awesome adventure! Unfortunately it seem these species will never be in culture, but it was great to see your photos!

Well done! :clap:


----------



## Bartek

I will add some pics soon also


----------



## Bartek

Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Sorry for bad quality


----------



## Bartek

Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## rs4guy

Those look unreal, thanks for the great shots!!!


----------



## AFK

Wait, are these 3 below _Toxodera beieri_? I didn't see this species mentioned earlier in this thread. It just popped up on this page out of the blue!



Bartek said:


>


----------



## Mime454

Sorry for bumping an old thread, but these are the coolest mantises I have ever seen! I just hope that they are in culture before I die(I hope that thats a long way way)! Is there any news on people trying to culture these guys?


----------

