# Diapause for an ooth.



## CoolMantid (Dec 17, 2011)

Can I put a mantis ooth in a 30 F degree fridge for there diapause period? Or will it freeze them to death?

If not I will leave it out in the garage.


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## gripen (Dec 17, 2011)

what species is it?


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## CoolMantid (Dec 17, 2011)

one Limbata and one European. Does it matter?


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 17, 2011)

Hertarem45 said:


> one Limbata and one European. Does it matter?


Cold does not cause diapause in any mantis ootheca. I wrote a long blurb on this four weeks ago. You didn't read it, did you? And so we get the same questions over and over again. Still, you are only twelve so I'll cut you some slack. Go here: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=23139&amp;st=0&amp;p=175345&amp;hl=photoperiod&amp;fromsearch=1entry175345 and read post #9. You'll love it!  If there is a bit that is unclear, please let us know in this thread.


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## CoolMantid (Dec 17, 2011)

I know what diapuse is. I am asking if is nescessary to do that to the mantis ooth in the fridge like in nature?


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## CoolMantid (Dec 17, 2011)

Do they need the cold period? OR can they hatch at room temperature.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 18, 2011)

I kinda doubt that you know what diapause is. NO ooth in the cold of a fridge or outside is in diapause.

If your mantids are from the US, they need the cold period. Even the ooths of US mantids will hatch at room temperature, so the answer is a definite yes to the first question and a qualified yes to the second. You did't follow that link I gave you, did you?


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## CoolMantid (Dec 18, 2011)

I did, but I decided to stick to my question. Thanks. THis is what diapause is- Its is a cool period that make the eggs in the ooth develop slower and take a longer time, they do this to survive through winter or a resting period for the eggs. Thanks. I did learn from this.


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## Introvertebrate (Dec 19, 2011)

Hertarem45 said:


> ...........I did learn from this.


That makes one of us. So what have you decided? Are you going to hatch them right away, or keep them cold for a while?


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## CoolMantid (Dec 19, 2011)

Hatch them right away. I am keeping them at 75 degrees F. Should hatch in Feburary at its latest....I think


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## massaman (Dec 19, 2011)

the only prob is the ooths will hatch sooner then that depending on how long they been kept cold beforehand and you should prepare for this!


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## CoolMantid (Dec 20, 2011)

Im prepared. I have a 5 gallon arranged tank for the european(because of the higher amount of nymphs) and 2.5 gallon tank for the S. Limbata. I mist it multiple times a day. Heat usually stays at 75 degrees F and drops at night to 66-69 degrees F. How much longer should I wait from here.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 20, 2011)

Hertarem45 said:


> I did, but I decided to stick to my question. Thanks. THis is what diapause is- Its is a cool period that make the eggs in the ooth develop slower and take a longer time, they do this to survive through winter or a resting period for the eggs. Thanks. I did learn from this.


I'm sure that you are a good lad, Hertarem, but your definition of ooth diapause is completely wrong. I am very impressed by the fact that altough I posted on this a month ago, not one member has seen fit to correct you.  

Edit: The post I made on this topic was aimed at HS graduates. This member is in grade school. Can't someone explain diapause to him?


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## lunarstorm (Dec 20, 2011)

I'll take a crack at this.

Hertarem: I think what Phil is trying to say (please correct me if I'm wrong Phil!) is that you are confusing the general definition of insect diapause (the definition Hertarem offered) with the process that occurs with some mantid oothecas. When a mantid species ootheca is cooled for an extended period, it actually *halts* the diapause process! Obviously this is much different than the common misconception that your cool fridge temps starts it. Thus the extended period of cold temperatures trigger the halt of the diapause process and facilitates the proper development of the nymphs.


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## CoolMantid (Dec 20, 2011)

Im not in grade shcool!? Im in middle shcool.Im a strait A+ student. All I asked was for a simple answer. But saying that I am to young to know is 1) Completely off topic 2) Somewhat rude 3)Not answering my question. Thank you Lunarstorm for answering my question, Thank you. Oh, and Phil if your trying to tell me Im to young to be in this hobby that is wrong. If what you meant was different from this let me know. I'll keep you updated.


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## gripen (Dec 20, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> I'm sure that you are a good lad, Hertarem, but your definition of ooth diapause is completely wrong. I am very impressed by the fact that altough I posted on this a month ago, not one member has seen fit to correct you.
> 
> Edit: The post I made on this topic was aimed at HS graduates. This member is in grade school. Can't someone explain diapause to him?


phil, calling hertarem a grade school idiot does not solve anything. you should apologize.


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## ShieldMantid1997 (Dec 20, 2011)

i don't think Phil meant this as an insult.


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## CoolMantid (Dec 20, 2011)

Im in 7th grade! I dont want to be rude, but still its not nice and irrelivent to our topic. Thank you gripen.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 21, 2011)

Gripen: The only person who used the term "grade school idiot" is you.

And no, Hartarem, it is not irrelevant. Last year, I coached a HS freshman through Biology. The teacher used a college level text (this was an accelerated course) but it still took a week to study what a college student would be expected to master between one class and the next, so, although you were completely wrong, your error is understandable, particularly since so many adults have trouble with this counterintuitive issue. Lunarstorm did great, but you might wonder why only one species in culture uses this strategy and why other European mantids do not. I came to this thread to complete this very interesting discussion, but I am now wondering if that is what you want to hear. I'll check again tomorrow. If you want to hear the rest, let me know on this thread.


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## Introvertebrate (Dec 21, 2011)

Post removed.


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## CoolMantid (Dec 21, 2011)

Is something wrong with being young? Is something wrong with asking a question that might be very wrong? That is the point of learning! Gripen and me both got the same idea of you calling me a "grade school idiot" You did not actually say that but we both interpreted it.


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## ismart (Dec 21, 2011)

Hertarem45 said:


> Hatch them right away. I am keeping them at 75 degrees F. Should hatch in Feburary at its latest....I think


The limbata ooth should be raised to 85F, and mist every few days.The European ooth should be put in the fridge for at least 3 months. before you attempt to incubate it.


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## meaganelise9 (Dec 21, 2011)

I agree that there has been some rudeness in this thread.. but Phil's post was interesting. I didn't know all of that. So if I am understanding correctly, the proper stages of development of the embryos are controlled by the amount of daylight and the temperature? I am glad I'm just leaving my religiosa ooth outside for winter now. I think nature knows best, and it sounds like hatching them prematurely can cause problems in the developing embryos. They need that time to grow, right? We don't want to be selfish with our bugs. Hatching them early could mean immediate gratification for us but unhealthy nymphs. This makes me wonder about some of the more rare species that have early, seemingly inexplicable deaths.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 21, 2011)

@harterem No. Being young is great! Enjoy it while you can! Also nothing wrong with asking a question. Even misreading the answer is no big deal for such a complex idea when you are 12, which is why I offered to extend Lunarstorm's accurate answer with some more, interesting stuff (did you know, for example that some insects produce a substance which predates antifreeze? Great stuff!) There certainly are retarded (developmentally delayed is the PC term) grade school students, but they grow into retarded adults, so obviously, folks don't become smarter as they get older(though some studies have suggested that energetic use of your ratiocinative abiliy might push up your IQ score by a few points, and vice versa), just better educated.

I also gave you the chance to let me know if you were interested in learning about this. Remember, this does not help me; I am the one doing all the work, but from your answer it seems that you are more focussed on your misinterpretation of what I said.

@Ismart: I have done that 80-85F hatching strategy for S. limbata, Paul,but it is not "natural". Do you remember that odd debate on diapause involving Salamonis about three years back? Like hartarem, I was a bit hazy on diapause in those days and thought that the photoperiod affected the ooth instead of the mom. At any rate, I left a cuppla S. limbata ooths outside, where they had daytime temps in the 50s/60F range and nighttime temps a little above freezing. I brought them in in March and they produced some pretty hardy nymphs. I know that you cannot do this in the Frozen North, my friend, but you are always welcome down here in Yuma, AZ!


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## ismart (Dec 21, 2011)

@Phil. Yes, it is not natural, but it can be done! This could also be said for Chinese, or even carolinas. Geez! I'm going to have to go back to the archives to look for your debate with Salamonis. :lol: I found the limbata ooth hatches without a diapause yielded me plenty of strong nymphs. I never had a problem hatching limbatas this way, nor Chinese, or Carolinas. The only species that is most effected by not having a diapause were the Europeans. I always found the ooths would either never hatch, or the few nymphs that did were weak, and would die soon after.


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## gripen (Dec 21, 2011)

i agree with you ismart. i f you do not diapause europeans they will not hatch.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 21, 2011)

ismart said:


> @Phil. Yes, it is not natural, but it can be done! This could also be said for Chinese, or even carolinas. Geez! I'm going to have to go back to the archives to look for your debate with Salamonis. :lol: I found the limbata ooth hatches without a diapause yielded me plenty of strong nymphs. I never had a problem hatching limbatas this way, nor Chinese, or Carolinas. The only species that is most effected by not having a diapause were the Europeans. I always found the ooths would either never hatch, or the few nymphs that did were weak, and would die soon after.


Yes, of course, I agree. The European mantis is the only one in culture in the US whose eggs are in diapause when laid. That diapause will not be broken and the eggs will not start to develop again until they undergo a cold spell. I think that the confusion lies in the fact that many native mantids' eggs, although they do not need to be released from diapause, do, like S. limbata mentioned here, seem to benefit from a cool period in whuich they can develop slowly, but are not dependent on it.

@ Gripen. You still don't understand diapause, do you? Cold doesn't start diapause, it breaks it!


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## gripen (Dec 21, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> Yes, of course, I agree. The European mantis is the only one in culture in the US whose eggs are in diapause when laid. That diapause will not be broken and the eggs will not start to develop again until they undergo a cold spell. I think that the confusion lies in the fact that many native mantids' eggs, although they do not need to be released from diapause, do, like S. limbata mentioned here, seem to benefit from a cool period in whuich they can develop slowly, but are not dependent on it.
> 
> @ Gripen. You still don't understand diapause, do you? Cold doesn't start diapause, it breaks it!


yes i know what diapause is. i just stated without a cold period europeans will not hatch.


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## CoolMantid (Dec 21, 2011)

Wait I am confused. Ok Right now I ahve a Chinese, S. Limbata, and European ooths. Which should go out in thwe cold and which should stay inside?


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## gripen (Dec 21, 2011)

i would put the chinese and european outside and bring the limbata in.


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## ismart (Dec 21, 2011)

The S. limbata, and Chinese ooths you can leave indoors if you want them to hatch now. The European ooth should be left outside to break diapause. Bring the European ooth indoors around April to begin incubation. They should hatch in May.


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## CoolMantid (Dec 21, 2011)

Thanks!


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 21, 2011)

gripen said:


> i agree with you ismart. i f you do not diapause europeans they will not hatch.


Perhaps I have you all wrong, Gripen and you really have mastered this phenomenon. Could you make clear , though, for an old fart like me, how you diapause the ooth of a European mantis? By chilling it?


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## gripen (Dec 21, 2011)

Phil i never called you an old fart :tt2: i never pretended to have mastered the art of chilling ooths but i do think it is quite simple. stick them in the refrigerator mist them ever once and a while, and there you have it. take it out of the refrigerator, nymphs hatch then your done.


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## meaganelise9 (Dec 21, 2011)

isn't that different than being outside though? there's more than just cold.


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## gripen (Dec 21, 2011)

yes. but cold is the trigger.


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## lunarstorm (Dec 21, 2011)

Phil is being tricky, but I think he's got a very good point that might be missed by some. Please note the bolded text below:



> Perhaps I have you all wrong, Gripen and you really have mastered this phenomenon. Could you make clear , though, for an old fart like me, *how you diapause the ooth of a European mantis? By chilling it?*


If this was a quiz and you answered with something like "The cold temperatures of the fridge begin the diapause process for the European mantis ootheca." that would be incorrect and you'd miss this question on the quiz.

It's up to you to figure out the right answer.


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## jcal (Dec 21, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diapause


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## ismart (Dec 22, 2011)

gripen said:


> yes. but cold is the trigger.


Unfavorable conditions is only part of it. Diapause in inverts is also driven by internal hormones. Which cannot start and complete it's work the moment harsh environmental changes happen, or come to an end. diapause also has to have internal clock. Photoperiod is often used for this.

Light (Photoperiod) also plays an important role! I personally believe the reason why your fridge works well is not just to regulate temps, but also keeps the ooth in almost constant darkness. The fridge light only goes on when you open the fridge. I guess in my case i would be better off leaving my ooths outside. My fridge is opened a lot!  :lol:


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## massaman (Dec 22, 2011)

well I use the fridge for what its designed for to keep my food and beverages cold and outside is where all the nature stuff belongs or can keep the ooths in the garage if your like me but can insulate containers though to keep the ooths little warmer then the outside temps in the winter though in the garage as I think I am doing this right. I got a old xbox carry case that has a flap that can be clipped closed and I put inside that a dob kit and put the ooths I am trying to keep outside in the dob kit but they will have enough air being their in 32 oz deli cups and a quart jar with enough holes in the top for ventilation and put those in the dob kit bag and keeping them halfway in the bag so their lids are not closed up.I then close and snap flap shut on the xbox carry on case and keep that on a shelf in my garage and this is where I am keeping the iris ooths and hopefully these will diapause or whatever till spring and then I can hatch them also I had put a dish towel in the jar as well with a small like valley in one side of the towel in the jar where the a ooth fits in the valley and is not engulfed in the towel and thats what my plan is anyways and dont think my garage gets colder then the outside cause my pipes to my apartment are in the garage and if the garage gets too cold then my pipes would freeze and would be without water for my shower and sink so the ooths would be safe in my garage then just leaving them outside someplace!


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## massaman (Dec 22, 2011)

http://library.thinkquest.org/TQ0312800/diapause.htm

Diapause is usually done by insects. It is a ‘sleep time’ that is different from hibernation because the animals do not grow during this time. There are two kinds of diapause:

Obligatory--a word that just means that the animal or insect MUST do this at some stage in its development. It has no choice.

Facultative--another big word that means the animal goes to 'sleep' because something bad is going to happen. This is different from other kinds of hibernation that happen AFTER something bad happens. With facultative diapause, the creature goes to sleep BEFORE the drought or cold weather.

Diapause is the way animals adapt to the world around them. It happens a lot in places where food or water are only there for a little while or the amount of food or water changes. It is a way for animals to live through droughts or lack of food.

Insects that stop growing have more of a chance to live if they can ‘sleep’ through the bad times and wake when things get better. The animals or insects might:

Be active in the spring and ‘sleep’ (be dormant) in the winter [temperate regions].

Be active in the rainy season and ‘sleep’ during drought [tropical areas].

The insects get warning signals a few times before they actually do anything about it. These warning signs might be:

Days becoming shorter. Animals can sense this and send out the message for ‘sleep’.

Outside temperature going lower than usual.

The quality or quantity of food goes down.

Long-day insects are the ones that go into diapause because the days get shorter. Short-day insects go into diapause when there are longer days. This is part of the genes in an animal.

After a few warning-signal days, the female will lay ‘diapausing’ eggs. These eggs will have their cycle from egg to adult stopped somewhere. Some examples of these ‘sleepers’ are:

Gypsy moth: diapause as fully formed embryo

Bombyx mori [silkworm]: diapause as early embryo

Grasshoppers: diapause in the middle of embryo stage

Some butterflies and moths: larvae

White cabbage butterfly: pupae

Colorado potato beetle: adult

Animals would become extinct without adapting to their habitats.


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## ismart (Dec 22, 2011)

As much as i would like to leave my ooths in the garage, or in my yard. I have to many wild animals that have no problem making a snack out of my ooths.


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## massaman (Dec 22, 2011)

you do know you can close the garage doors so nothing can get in unless their broken or something and now theres a thought!

Closed doors would prevent vermin infestation and I would think the ooths would still get the temps and such they need for the spring!

Nothing can get in my garage as all garage doors are closed and the door that leads to the outside from the garage as well is closed and nothing gets in or out unless someone like me forgets to close a door and I would suffer as well as leaving the door open means frozen pipes and no water for my bathroom (shower,sink and toilet)


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 22, 2011)

I hit the road in an hour, so can't spend much time on this. Lunarstorm saw through my triick, though! It's great that folks are looking up diapause, but I saw nothing that covered Mantis religiosa which is unusual even among diapausing insects. I'll take a longer look atthis tonight or tomorrow. bon voyage, to me, dog, fffs and some favorite mantids!


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## ismart (Dec 22, 2011)

massaman said:


> you do know you can close the garage doors so nothing can get in unless their broken or something and now theres a thought!
> 
> Closed doors would prevent vermin infestation and I would think the ooths would still get the temps and such they need for the spring!
> 
> Nothing can get in my garage as all garage doors are closed and the door that leads to the outside from the garage as well is closed and nothing gets in or out unless someone like me forgets to close a door and I would suffer as well as leaving the door open means frozen pipes and no water for my bathroom (shower,sink and toilet)


My garage is detached. No matter what i do field mice always mange to set up housing every winter. I would put traps down, but then i feel bad.  There just trying to say warm for the winter months. Racoons, Skunks, and Possums get the :2guns: :gun_bandana: :gunsmilie: :shuriken: :tank: :hang:


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## massaman (Dec 22, 2011)

Then thats your problem not putting down traps and what not vermin and what not are not suppose to take up residence on a house or a garage what stays outside stays outside and if its not a pet then it does not belong inside or in ones property meaning house and garage and well I had my share of vermin over the years and whether its shooting them with pellet guns or drowning them in a bucket of water I do what it takes to get rid of pests and can sleep at night knowing I did a good thing!


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## ismart (Dec 22, 2011)

massaman said:


> Then thats your problem not putting down traps
> 
> well I had my share of vermin over the years and whether its shooting them with pellet guns or drowning them in a bucket of water I do what it takes to get rid of pests and can sleep at night knowing I did a good thing!


I suppose so! If they were in the house it would be one thing...

Gezz! dude! Drowning them seems a little excessive? No?  

I probably should have mentioned we have a ton of stray cats. They sometime run into the garage. I would hate to have them eat poison, or get caught up in some glue trap. My girl would disown me if one of her kittens gets hurt!


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## ismart (Dec 22, 2011)

Whoops! I'm sorry for being fftopic: 

Massaman, how much light does your garage get? I have noticed Iris ooths are greatly affected by Photoperiod.


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## CoolMantid (Dec 22, 2011)

There are traps that just catch the mice. No harm what so ever.


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## ismart (Dec 22, 2011)

Hertarem45 said:


> There are traps that just catch the mice. No harm what so ever.


True! But that would mean i have to release them somewhere? I'm already pressed for time!


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## meaganelise9 (Dec 22, 2011)

I keep mine in a net enclosure outside, zip tied to a patio chair. That way it gets all the outside light, humidity, and temperatures, and all my animal friends come and go without disturbing it. Plus, it's right there on my porch, so I can keep an eye on everything from my warm living room..


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## massaman (Dec 22, 2011)

well should of said chipmunks when I said drowning as we had bad case of chipmunks and well my garage dont get alot of light being there is no windows and only like a sliver of light can come through from the cracks of the garage doors when they meet the concrete and there prob would be no more light esp being in the xbox case either being that case is closed up and well there is some spots where light could get in but not much and the only time there is any light coming in is when I turn on the lights to take out the trash or the light of the outside when the garage doors are open when my mom puts her vehicle in the garage instead of leaving it outside so it is not getting a whole lot of light!


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## massaman (Dec 22, 2011)

well wont have stray cats running inside if you keep the garage closed and problem solved and I do like animals but I know when a house and garage is meant for those who live their and not for the entire neighborhood wildlife to find refuge and its just common sense to keep doors closed when not in use esp a garage and well around here my dog and my moms are both pad trained so they never get outside and we have put poison out for mice and other rodents and just like to keep those out being you dont know what kind of diseases those could have and esp stray cats as well but as I said its common sense and do what you will but if you trying to keep a mantis ooth safe keeping it in a safe and closed environment where nothing can even get at it is best and you would think with all them cats hanging around anyways they would of taken care of the mice problem but what do I know!


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## happy1892 (Dec 22, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> NO ooth in the cold of a fridge or outside is in diapause.
> 
> If your mantids are from the US, they need the cold period. Even the ooths of US mantids will hatch at room temperature, so the answer is a definite yes to the first question and a qualified yes to the second. You did't follow that link I gave you, did you?


A long time ago I brought in one Asian Grass Mantis ootheca. It hatched out early. If I kept it outside the ootheca would have hatched later. And after that I kept another one out side. It hatched later. So I think the cold delayed the ootheca from hatching.


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## happy1892 (Dec 22, 2011)

happy1892 said:


> A long time ago I brought in one Asian Grass Mantis ootheca. It hatched out early. If I kept it outside the ootheca would have hatched later. And after that I kept another one out side. It hatched later. So I think the cold delayed the ootheca from hatching.


I read what you said. I thought the cold kept them from hatching. Do Chinese Mantids need a diapause?


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## massaman (Dec 22, 2011)

chinese dont need one but cant hurt either way!


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## happy1892 (Dec 22, 2011)

Thank you.


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## gripen (Dec 22, 2011)

photoperiod is important i think for mantids who diapause as nymphs. i think the only way we can solve exactly how diapause and photoperiod affect ootheca is buy doing an experiment.

here is what i am thinking:

get 6 fresh laid chinese ooths and split them up into 3 groups.

group A will be put in the refrigerator

group B will be kept outside

group C will be inside

all the ooths will be sprayed every other day

after_______ amount of time A and B groups will be taken inside and left to hatch.

data will be collected by how hardy the nymphs are and what the hatching rates are.

does this sound viable?


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## jcal (Dec 22, 2011)

gripen said:


> photoperiod is important i think for mantids who diapause as nymphs. i think the only way we can solve exactly how diapause and photoperiod affect ootheca is buy doing an experiment.
> 
> here is what i am thinking:
> 
> ...


sounds good. would be better if each group had multiple ooths. that way you get a accurate hatch ratio.


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