# A strange method of slowing down growth



## yen_saw (Sep 27, 2007)

This method doesn;t sound very ethical at all, but apparently it works for a friend of mine (not going to mention name). I just want to know what you guys think.

To slow down the growth of male orchid mantis, a leg is clipped away during early stage and therefore the "handicap" specimen took a longer time to moult and so reach adulthood the same time as female orchid.

Crazy way but seems to work for my friend. I have never done it nevertheless.


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## echostatic (Sep 27, 2007)

in my opinion deliberately wounding a creature like that just to slow it down is wrong.


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## sablechapter (Sep 27, 2007)

haha yea this method is kinda unethical but it works

one of the orchids I received lost its leg at L2, and it grew at a MUCh slower rate than the others


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## joossa (Sep 27, 2007)

Interesting... I wouldn't do it, though. I would just stick to stuffing the female and keeping her at a higher temperature than the male.


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## OGIGA (Sep 27, 2007)

When is it clipped? It can't be earlier than when you can determine gender, right?

By the way, let's not prune our trees anymore. jk


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## Rick (Sep 27, 2007)

I don't understand why you woudl even want to slow it down. I have no problems with their growth rate. The males mature much faster but it does not affect breeding.


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## drizzt (Sep 27, 2007)

:shock:

This is an live animal, not a thing!!

Im shocked, really.

Its not all about "production" of mantises and fast money.. :/


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 27, 2007)

Oh, looks like a hornet nest is brewing :shock:


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## Deutschherper (Sep 27, 2007)

Deliberately wounding a living thing just so it'll grow more slowly is wrong.


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## buddhistsoldier88 (Sep 27, 2007)

i gotta keep my opinions to myself on matters such this or ill be temporarily banned im sure :roll: ... but most of you know my opinion on matters such as these...


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## Andrew (Sep 27, 2007)

All ethics and pointlessness aside, it's still an interesting observation.


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## Sparky (Sep 27, 2007)

> All ethics and pointlessness aside, it's still an interesting observation.


 True.

Why not just keep the temperature and humidity lower and feed it less?

I tried this with 6 mantids?

3 was left in shade where its cool and i hardly mist their container.

3 was on my drawer where the temperature was good between 80-90F and I sprayed them daily.

Out of dumb luck the 6 mantids I chose were all male chinese raised from L1's(I gave the other 5 away now)

the mantids that were by the wall are still L5's and one is still an L4.(which bothers me)

The other grew into subadults.


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## asdsdf (Sep 27, 2007)

Yep, I don't really agree with the method.(Although, mantids don't really feel REAL pain. It's more like a reflex.) Sparky, I'm not sure about humidity, but cooler temperature does slow down growth, however, Yen's friend could justify what he/she does since it may be harder to achieve a cooler temp.

SO..... :?


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## Precious (Sep 27, 2007)

I am curious to know how many of you that are so concerned with "ethics" support abortion?

The most recent pain studies on invertebrates experiencing pain are inconclusive at best. Most experts concede that insects do not have a "brain" capable of processing pain as we do. Thus, the cricket with a crushed tarsus (not my own example) runs around without even favoring the injury and locust will continue to eat while being eaten. A recent lobster pain study explains it better than I can. I don't think it is good for society to promote the ill treatment of insects but I do think one should be reasonable. My dog's tail is docked and it was docked as most are, as a pup by the breeder without anesthetic and I'm glad she's not a risk for some pretty awful injuries to her tail. Where have all the men gone?

Yen - it is interesting to me because my male Chinese was a solid month behind my female and he'd lost half a leg at L4.

http://www.livescience.com/animals/ap_lobs...ain_050214.html


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## Andrew (Sep 27, 2007)

> I am curious to know how many of you that are so concerned with "ethics" support abortion?


99.9% of the time that abortion is mentioned on a message board, it turns into a flame war. Lets all forget this came up before it becomes a problem, lol.  

Anyways, some of you ought to check out that link that Precious posted. I've only skimmed it, but it looks like it pretty much sums up the invertebrate-pain issue from a scientific viewpoint.


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## modliszki (Sep 28, 2007)

Calling a web site livescience doesn't neccessarily mean that it is a scientific one. BTW one can find article "Satellite Searches Could Spot Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster" at the same web page....

The rule of thumb in scientific publications is quoting a reliable source. So next time look for a better source (i truly recommend pubmed at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed , and for the more popular approach, however based on reliable news and real research http://www.sciencedaily.com/)

For some reason all this story reminds me an old anecdote (dating form communist era in my country)...

It is about a Soviet enomologist working on fly hearing organs. He has been asked to prove if removing of the limbs affects hearing.

He dissected a leg, and shouted "Walk!" and the fly walked away.

Than he dissceted second leg, shouted "Walk!, and the fly walked away, again... An so on with the third and fourth leg.

Upon removing fifth leg, he shouted "Walk!" but the fly just fallen down on the lab bench. He shouted once again, but without any response from the fly...So the entomologist written down in hus lab journal: Upon dissection of five legs, the fly is completely deaf...

So this is about "science", and drawing conclusions matching your a priori assumptions. (and it is also about condition of science in Soviet Union  )...

I am a scientist myself and it really pisses me off, when some guys mimic scientific approach to justify their weirdest ideas, or bussines of a big company(sadly, but the latter case is too often true in the medicine)....

Insects and inverts feel the pain - of course the other way than we do, but their nervous system is sophisticated enough to respond such a stimuli. So mutilating them just to have fun is not the best idea, and the run for cash doesn't justify it....


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## yen_saw (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks for all the great comments and feedback!!


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## lionsden112002 (Sep 28, 2007)

I an new here and am not an official bug keeper hobbyist so as I read this post I wondered about the food we feed our mantids.

I watch with fascination each time my chinese snatches up a cricket and begins devouring. That strike and feeding action is part of the totally cool thing about mantids.

do crickets hurt? How big a bug does it need to be before some level of ethical concern is cognated.

:?

regards


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 28, 2007)

They do bite the mantis if the situation gives them the opportunity, If yu grab one of their legs with tweezers, notice how they bend towards that leg, they are trying to free it by attacking the tweezers, if that does not work they then will usually let the leg fall off as do grasshoppers. They also will eat the mantis and anything else if they are able. I notice many times in their house that they eat the younger and feeble crickets.


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## Orin (Sep 28, 2007)

> ]Insects and inverts feel the pain - of course the other way than we do, but their nervous system is sophisticated enough to respond such a stimuli. So mutilating them just to have fun is not the best idea, and the run for cash doesn't justify it....


 :shock: You feed your mantids only apple slices then? Should all mantids, spiders, lions, tigers etc. be forced to starve to death since they eat living creatures? Let's all pretend to have a little common sense here. :shock: BTW, the method was stolen from the ghosts phasmid book.


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## lionsden112002 (Sep 28, 2007)

No of course not apple slices these are family pets for goodness sake. Tofu toast with cheese!!


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## joossa (Sep 28, 2007)

> do crickets hurt? How big a bug does it need to be before some level of ethical concern is cognated.


The topic in question is something that is done by human to the mantid. Feeding prey and then felling sorry for the prey because they feel pain is irrelevant because it happens in nature all the time. Snipping off legs never happens naturally, therefore the ethical issue stands only on this and not on doing something that would regularly happen in the wild.


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## Precious (Sep 28, 2007)

> Calling a web site livescience doesn't neccessarily mean that it is a scientific one. BTW one can find article "Satellite Searches Could Spot Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster" at the same web page....The rule of thumb in scientific publications is quoting a reliable source. So next time look for a better source (i truly recommend pubmed at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed , and for the more popular approach, however based on reliable news and real research http://www.sciencedaily.com/)
> 
> For some reason all this story reminds me an old anecdote (dating form communist era in my country)...
> 
> ...


The site I linked to is one of hundreds that feature the Norwegian lobster study. I did not go to the site and look for information. I am familiar with the study and picked that site out of many. The article is about research conducted at Olso University and, while government funded, the methods appear sound and the conclusion is reasonable (the researchers do suggest further experimentation). I'm educated in the scientific method and statistical/research methods. Your "scientist" title is irrelevant to me. Everyone on this forum is qualified to overview the literature and come to a conclusion. The issue of invertebrate pain experience continues to be hotly debated by experts in the various associated sciences. I find the preponderance of evidence to be on the side of those who assert that insects do not have the capability of processing and perceiving pain as we think of. As an American, I respect your freedom to disagree.

Snipping the legs off of a praying mantid to slow it's growth for purposes of breeding is hardly "mutilation" and certainly it is not done in the name of money. Mantid breeding is not a million dollar industry. (Though you do seem to have an inordinate fear of Capitalism.) Perhaps your enthusiam would be better directed at very real human crises on this planet.

Farmers castrate livestock, breeders alter domestic dogs and humans circumcise male children. It is part of life. I think it is very clever to note that growth rate in mantids can be effected by snipping the legs and to use that information to adjust for deviations in maturation. Very clever indeed.


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## Christian (Sep 29, 2007)

> Snipping the legs off of a praying mantid to slow it's growth for purposes of breeding is hardly "mutilation"...Farmers castrate livestock, breeders alter domestic dogs and humans circumcise male children. It is part of life. I think it is very clever to note that growth rate in mantids can be effected by snipping the legs and to use that information to adjust for deviations in maturation. Very clever indeed.


I do not agree with this point of view.

First: cutting off the foreleg of a mantid *IS* mutilation. Mantids use the forelegs for prey capture, so every injure of the forelegs affects prey capture and thus food intake, energy benefit and, lastly, overall fitness. Thus, this is a mutilation and this is exactly the reason why the development is slowed down. The mantid may be slower, but it is certainly not healthier.

Secondly: "It is part of life". No, it isn't. It is part of _human_ life. This is a small, but significant difference. Humans (as a whole) do not respect life. They do not even respect themselves, how can one expect other life to be respected? However, this goes too far. The examples listed here cannot be compared to the legless mantid. As I said before, altering food intake affects fitness. It is like breaking the jaw of a mammal and watch it licking liquids for the next few weeks. With the difference that a jaw can heal, but a mantid foreleg is usually not regenerated. The mentioned alterations in the examples do not affect food intake.

The point is: this method is nothing but a last way out for people who were not able to breed a species in the normal way and now try to manipulate it in a way they can feel as having been successful. "Breeding" species like this is really piteous. It is by no means "clever". But hey, what do I know...


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## Precious (Sep 29, 2007)

Where did you get foreleg? Yen said "a leg". It would be counterproductive to hack off a foreleg. I maintain that it is clever and not at all inhumane. I have very good data that supports my belief. You feel differently and that's great, but do you have to remark so sharply? Be arrogant and rude? I have a valid opinion supported by scientific data. You don't need to assault my opinion to make your own valid.

This thread needs to die. It's way off track and has disentegrated into patronizing banter that just breeds ill will.

I'm going to sleep now, and while I sleep 23,000 children will die of starvation and preventable disease. So you weep for the bugs, I have given this drivel too much of my time already.

.


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