# age to start using crickets as food



## Robs (Dec 6, 2010)

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for some advice regarding food for my Budwing Mantis nymphs. When I received the nymphs about a month ago, they were very small (about 3/4 inch) and I fed them with a diet of small flightless fruit flies. I used the fruit flies until they molted, at which point I tried putting some very small crickets in the mantises' cages to see if they would eat them. They seemed to have no problem with the crickets, so ever since then I have been feeding them exclusively on small crickets which I dust with some "Yen's blend" bee pollen/powdered honey mixture (which I bought from MantisPlace.com). The mantises seem to be eating the crickets, but they don't eat nearly as often as when I was feeding them fruit flies. Is there something else that is preferable to give them at their current size? The reason I wanted to switch to crickets was because I don't like dealing with the fruit flies - it's far too messy and difficult to manage. I can only imagine it'd be more difficult if I used bugs that were capable of flying.

Speaking of which, what is the best way to transport feeder bugs from their habitats (which can be rather crowded) into the mantis environments? I've tried various methods but none of them work very well and I can only assume that after all this time, someone has found a better way.

Lastly, how should I be giving water to the nymphs? Should I mist them directly or just spray their habitat? (up to this point I have been doing both) Is it possible to give them too much water?

Thank you,

-Rob

Here is a picture of one of my mantis nymphs, next to a rather large cricket. The ones I have been feeding the nymphs are generally smaller than this one, but some of them have been the same size... is this cricket too much for the little guy?


----------



## Robs (Dec 6, 2010)

update - apparently the cricket didn't stand a chance, even though it's almost the same size as the mantis :blink: 

yum!


----------



## warpdrive (Dec 6, 2010)

Rob,

most mantids will eat a wide veriaty of insects as long as they show movement. my largest female ghost will eat anything I try, the others will starve till they understand it's food. but they all doo love flying food best...they even like my wild FFs more then my flightless ones.

the whole point of large prey is to fill them up, and at some point FF are not enough so they eat more of them...like a bag of chips to us. we just can't have only one.

it can be scary as a first timmer of mantids and you just wana do everything right. I've been there for sure. trust me, you are doing ok...but I do think your budwing needs a larger deli tub.

P.S. if you don't gutload your crickets well, you wont be giving your manteds the best in nutrition. try Cricket Crack from Steve in Cali. if you need help getting some, or want to try a small sample, I can help. the product has a large amount of bee pollin in it...your crickets will fight over it.  

Harry


----------



## Rick (Dec 6, 2010)

You can just feed your crickets leafy greens and dry dog food. No reason to waste money on commercial cricket food. I use those long tweezers/tongs to pick crickets out. If the crickets are too small for this, get a small plastic tube and put it in the cricket enclosure. The crickets will go inside it and you can lift it out and tap the crickets out and into the mantis enclosure. The tube should be capped on one end and have a diameter of an inch or inch and a half.


----------



## LauraMG (Dec 6, 2010)

Rick said:


> If the crickets are too small for this, get a small plastic tube and put it in the cricket enclosure. The crickets will go inside it and you can lift it out and tap the crickets out and into the mantis enclosure. The tube should be capped on one end and have a diameter of an inch or inch and a half.


That's exactly what I needed to solve my cricket catching dilemma!


----------



## PeterF (Dec 6, 2010)

Laura G said:


> That's exactly what I needed to solve my cricket catching dilemma!


I thought you were going for free range crickets? Might as well let the mantids roam too! They will feed themselves! Think how many CX and mantids you could keep in your home this way!


----------



## LauraMG (Dec 6, 2010)

Peter J F said:


> I thought you were going for free range crickets? Might as well let the mantids roam too! They will feed themselves! Think how many CX and mantids you could keep in your home this way!


 :lol: Well, my snake got loose the other day and I haven't found him, so maybe I should just release all creatures and food in the house and have a circle of life going!


----------



## warpdrive (Dec 6, 2010)

No disrespect to anyone, but what is with some people using dog food for feeders?

High in preformed vit A, and animal proteins are BAD for insectivores.

With reptiles that are insectivores and refuse to eat, you use insectivor care, not carnivore care...or blend up some bugs in your wife's favorite blender. Lol

Dog food is really bad even to gutload roaches.

And my advice is not a commercial gutload and has to be bought from a breeder and a tiny few websites.

I do agree that fresh greens and orange slices are best. But let's not force him do do more research on just what to use and what not to use.

Let's keep nutrition info for the experts, and not overwhelm the beginner.

Man, what's with the dog food? Its the worst thing you can feed an insect for insectivores.

Harry


----------



## PeterF (Dec 6, 2010)

warpdrive said:


> Let's keep nutrition info for the experts, and not overwhelm the beginner.
> 
> Man, what's with the dog food? Its the worst thing you can feed an insect for insectivores.
> 
> Harry


I believe Rick's point came closest to not overwhelming the beginner. Not everyone believes that gutloading is worth the time, money, or energy. For everything we do for our bugs there is another thing that we can do which is slightly better. And then a thing better than that.

We all have to work out for ourselves what is worth doing, and to push gutloading on a beginner and to tell them they are not doing the best for their mantids is likely to cause unnecessary frustration.

Rick's advice is usually K.I.S.S. at heart. And while it doesn't always suit my needs, it is always good advice.


----------



## PeterF (Dec 6, 2010)

Rob, I would like to know what you are finding difficult about fruitflies?

I find them considerably easier to deal with than little crickets.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Dec 6, 2010)

harry: You are dead wrong on this one, mate. Forget the silliness about "gut loading" feeder insects for insectivore insects. The term and the practice came from herp raisers who literally loaded the prey's stomach with food that it would not digest before being devoured by the predator. Roaches are omnivores, and they need their protein! Dog food suits them and I have been feeding it successfully for two years and Rick and others have been doing it a lot longer than that. As you probably know by now, a mantis is not particular about the source of its protein. Aside from insects, it will eat amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals and would probably eat the sheep which provide the dog food protein if they were small enough!

Rob: The best way to pick up roaches is with your fingers. They squirm a bit, but i think that they enjoy the personal touch. They can sometimes get free from forceps.


----------



## Robs (Dec 6, 2010)

Peter J F said:


> Rob, I would like to know what you are finding difficult about fruitflies?
> 
> I find them considerably easier to deal with than little crickets.


When I had a flightless fruit fly culture, I had a very difficult time getting fruit flies from their container to the mantis enclosures without a bunch of them escaping and running all over the place. It became more difficult as time went on and the culture became more dense, until the point when dozens would come flooding out every time I barely opened the lid. After a few weeks the culture died off. It seems like things would be much worse if the fruit flies had wings and could fly...

What is the right way to put fruit flies and other small feeder insects into the mantises' environments?


----------



## Robs (Dec 6, 2010)

warpdrive said:


> it can be scary as a first timmer of mantids and you just wana do everything right. I've been there for sure. trust me, you are doing ok...but I do think your budwing needs a larger deli tub.
> 
> P.S. if you don't gutload your crickets well, you wont be giving your manteds the best in nutrition. try Cricket Crack from Steve in Cali. if you need help getting some, or want to try a small sample, I can help. the product has a large amount of bee pollin in it...your crickets will fight over it.
> 
> Harry


I am about to order some new tubs and supplies from MantisPlace. What's a good size tub for this mantis? The one I have now seems like it's big enough but I think they are going to molt soon...

I would definitely like to get some of the cricket food - where can I find it?

Thanks,

-Rob


----------



## PeterF (Dec 6, 2010)

Robs said:


> It became more difficult as time went on and the culture became more dense, until the point when dozens would come flooding out every time I barely opened the lid.
> 
> What is the right way to put fruit flies and other small feeder insects into the mantises' environments?


I trimmed your quote for simplicity in addressing things. I believe I have not effected context.

For your first issue. I have only recently experienced that problem. My cultures are exploding and the few seconds of having the jar open is enough for them to climb up and jump out.

My main method is to keep the culture jar in my hand and continually tap it on the shelf or table while opening the mantis tank. Then once they are poured in I go back to tapping the jar while my other hand settles the tank and caps the jar. This works great with glass and even the peanutbutter jars that commercial FFs come in. It is less effective for FF cultures in deli cups.

A funnel is a good method of getting FFs into a mantid container. The funnel opening should be at least an inch bigger than the FF container opening. This works both for putting the funnel in a small hole in the mantid container. Or just putting the funnel over the mouth of the jar/delicup/whatever mantids are in.

The funnel will need to be flicked with your finger to convince all the FFs to go down.

FFs are not as dangerous as crickets, so if you put too many in with your mantid, no big deal. You don't have to pull a couple out of the jar by hand. You could try dumping the small number of FFs you need into a tall container. Capping the FF container before the rest crawl out and using the tall container to apply FFs to your mantid container. It's probably a pain to have the extra step, but the tall container will give you more control over escapees.

You will always lose some FFs. Sorry, there's no way around that. But try dealing with hundreds of 2nd or 3rd instar crickets and see how many you loose.

Lastly. If you are making your own cultures. This is a bit of a pain, but not much of one.

Sometimes I use 2 liter bottles. I cut a square near the top before the bottle tapers too sharply and glue mesh over it. Use the bottle mouth to make your medium as normal (pro tip; you can actually make the medium before glueing on the mesh, and use the big open square for easy access). Use a funnel to add FFs to the culture through the bottle mouth. More or less this is culture making as usual. But the bottle mouth is a great FF delivery device because they can't crawl up the foot tall bottle that fast, and you have better control over dumping them into a mantid tank. If you use a bung style hole in your mantid container, then you should still use a funnel.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Dec 6, 2010)

Rob: I think that this is a good time to introduce you to the best handbook available on mantis care, _Praying Mantids: Keeping Aliens_ by Orin McMonigle and A. Lasenby. You can buy it here: http://shop.bugsincyberspace.com/Books-Magazines-Free-Shipping_c8.htm, just scan down. These guys were raising mantids before many current members knew what a mantis was. Let me quote you a line (from the first edition): "The nymphs and adults do well on many foods, such as leaves, leftovers, old fruits and vegetables, and dried dog or cat food." p.20

It will only cost you $16 plus postage, a lot less than the $65 that a 5lb bag of "Cricket Crack" -- which bears no mention of what it contains -- will cost you!


----------



## sporeworld (Dec 6, 2010)

I like Peter's liter bottle idea.

I generally cut a bung hole in the top of my FF container. I pop the cork and tap them into the funnel - easy-peasie. Very few escapees.


----------



## warpdrive (Dec 7, 2010)

Laura G said:


> That's exactly what I needed to solve my cricket catching dilemma!


Empty Paper toilet rolls work better. And just dump them into a funnel to get them in the small hole at the top of the container.

Nice way to save the planet too.

Oh, just keep a few in your cricket keeper at all times and remove one when you need crickets.

Harry


----------



## sporeworld (Dec 7, 2010)

I've been staring at a POM WONDERFUL bottle for a few days trying to find a use for it. Fruit Fly dumping might be just the thing. Dump with funnel into POW bottle, then funnel into enclosures as needed.


----------



## warpdrive (Dec 7, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> harry: You are dead wrong on this one, mate. Forget the silliness about "gut loading" feeder insects for insectivore insects. The term and the practice came from herp raisers who literally loaded the prey's stomach with food that it would not digest before being devoured by the predator. Roaches are omnivores, and they need their protein! Dog food suits them and I have been feeding it successfully for two years and Rick and others have been doing it a lot longer than that. As you probably know by now, a mantis is not particular about the source of its protein. Aside from insects, it will eat amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals and would probably eat the sheep which provide the dog food protein if they were small enough!
> 
> Rob: The best way to pick up roaches is with your fingers. They squirm a bit, but i think that they enjoy the personal touch. They can sometimes get free from forceps.


I refuse to publicly respond to this as I have a deep respect for you.

Yet I will be sending a PM with my phone number and would love for you to call me when you have the time.

That is if you are willing to have a healthy and friendly debate on what you said.

Harry


----------



## warpdrive (Dec 7, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> Rob: I think that this is a good time to introduce you to the best handbook available on mantis care, _Praying Mantids: Keeping Aliens_ by Orin McMonigle and A. Lasenby. You can buy it here: http://shop.bugsincyberspace.com/Books-Magazines-Free-Shipping_c8.htm, just scan down. These guys were raising mantids before many current members knew what a mantis was. Let me quote you a line (from the first edition): "The nymphs and adults do well on many foods, such as leaves, leftovers, old fruits and vegetables, and dried dog or cat food." p.20
> 
> It will only cost you $16 plus postage, a lot less than the $65 that a 5lb bag of "Cricket Crack" -- which bears no mention of what it contains -- will cost you!


Please stop posting false information about a product that you know nothing about.

The ingredients of the product is both listed publicly from the maker and on each package.

Its time you give this subject a rest. You are way out of line here, regardless that I agree that you have the right to your opinion.

Harry


----------



## Orin (Dec 9, 2010)

Robs,

You can overwater your mantis if there's standing water on a regular basis, however with central heat at this time of year it's difficult if the cage is vented well. I could mist mine half a dozen times a day without hurting them at present humidity levels.



warpdrive said:


> Please stop posting false information about a product that you know nothing about.


Harry, I guess you're talking about dog food but your problem is you have zero information on vitamin A's effect on mantids. In addition you have no evidence it is transferred during feeding as mantids commonly dump gut content and may not digest A. If you want to write about vitamin A excess as a cautionary possibility that's fine (maybe people will believe you that it's a fact if you write about it long enough) but you're posting a 'sky is falling' theory with no factual support and pretending it is absolute fact.


----------



## Robs (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks everyone for all the comments!

I generally like to go for the 'simpler is better' approach, but I will definitely take all this advice into consideration, and I'll buy a copy of that book as well.


----------

