# Tenodora sinensis mismolt



## cwebster (Dec 22, 2016)

Minty Mantis just molted again. Noticed his wings just aren't right and one rear leg is at a weird angle. Is there anything I can do to help? I just put a jar with water near his heater thinking he night have gotten too dry and misted his enclosure a little. He is in a screen mantis mansion.


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## CosbyArt (Dec 22, 2016)

@cwebster With wings that means he molted his final time, and is an adult (as only adults have wings and no longer molt). There is nothing that can be done to fix molting issues besides him repairing the problems with another molt, so he sadly will have the problems the rest of his life.

Wing related problems are only cosmetic for pets, since he will not be flying anywhere for a mate. He should be able to use his twisted rear walking leg, getting better using it in the next few weeks. If the leg is a problem for him, he may choose to amputate it himself, which they sometimes do.


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## cwebster (Dec 22, 2016)

Thank you for your quick response. I hope Minty will be ok and keep eating. Am hoping he will overwinter as he just now reached his adult most. I thought he already had done that as he had wing buds showing for a long time...I thought he already had his final molt. Am wondering if the humidity was too low in his mantis mansion especially since there is a space heater in the room, although I mist his enclosure several times per day lightly against the mesh. I wish the little guys had fewer molting problems and lived much longer. My brother just sent me new ootheca yesterday...I don't know if I am up to it again but I guess I'm hooked. Am already looking forward to spring and am even reading about other species too that are easy to care for.


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## CosbyArt (Dec 22, 2016)

cwebster said:


> Thank you for your quick response. I hope Minty will be ok and keep eating. Am hoping he will overwinter as he just now reached his adult most. I thought he already had done that as he had wing buds showing for a long time...I thought he already had his final molt. Am wondering if the humidity was too low in his mantis mansion especially since there is a space heater in the room, although I mist his enclosure several times per day lightly against the mesh. I wish the little guys had fewer molting problems and lived much longer. My brother just sent me new ootheca yesterday...I don't know if I am up to it again but I guess I'm hooked. Am already looking forward to spring and am even reading about other species too that are easy to care for.


Most species tend to have highly visible wing buds for the last few instars (L6-L7 with some easily identified at L5) before adulthood (L8) when they get their wings.

Humidity could have been a issue, as I found the habitat you have, and being a solid mesh one they are very hard to keep any humidity due to all the air exchange. With those habitats you have to treat the room with a ultrasonic humidifier for good results, as they quickly take on the room's humidity level (RH) within minutes of the water drying. In which case with a heater in the room likely in the 30% range or less.

As an adult he should live 4-6 months just depends on the species, care, and the individual (as I've had several from the same ooth kept identically and there are a few who die quicker, many lived the typical lifespan, and some who lived much longer).

Well best of luck with your ooth. If though you do not want to hatch it you can place a classified ad to sell it instead.


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## cwebster (Dec 22, 2016)

Is it possible to do any gentle physical therapy on a twisted mantis leg?   just put a hygrometer in the bathroom and am checking out ultrasonic humidifiers. Minty is in a bathroom where a very tiny heater keeps his cage at 65 to 70F. He ate some offered honey and is getting around.


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## CosbyArt (Dec 22, 2016)

cwebster said:


> Is it possible to do any gentle physical therapy on a twisted mantis leg?   just put a hygrometer in the bathroom and am checking out ultrasonic humidifiers. Minty is in a bathroom where a very tiny heater keeps his cage at 65 to 70F. He ate some offered honey and is getting around.


The exoskeleton is made of chitin and is not flexible and will simply break if any such therapy was attempted - and is recommended you do not attempt it in any way (it will only make matters much worse). With most likely any results being broken off/amputated legs - the most gentle touch would be way too much. Even if you could apply the lightest touch it would be off no affect to help the mantid in the slightest.

He will be fine with the leg, it is a common mismolt issue and is not life-threatening. Glad he is doing good and getting honey.


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## cwebster (Dec 22, 2016)

Thomas, thanks. Will just let him be. Was just hoping i could help before his exoskeleton hardened again. Humidity in the room with him is only 45% so will get a humidifier before the next mantises hatch. Am sad i didnt already have the humidity higher. I keep wet sponges in the cage bottom and mist many times per day but that is not enough. Could use aquariums for the older nymphs from now on but have read high humidity can lead to mold. Will look around for better housing. How do they ever survive outside with the cold, low humidity, all those molts,  and constant predation? They sure have a rough life.


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## cwebster (Dec 22, 2016)

So if they dont have muscles and just chitin, how do they control their limbs? Something inside the tubemustcontrol things. People want to meet aliens...they are all around us.


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## CosbyArt (Dec 22, 2016)

cwebster said:


> Thomas, thanks. Will just let him be. Was just hoping i could help before his exoskeleton hardened again. Humidity in the room with him is only 45% so will get a humidifier before the next mantises hatch. Am sad i didnt already have the humidity higher. I keep wet sponges in the cage bottom and mist many times per day but that is not enough. Could use aquariums for the older nymphs from now on but have read high humidity can lead to mold. Will look around for better housing. How do they ever survive outside with the cold, low humidity, all those molts,  and constant predation? They sure have a rough life.


I'm sorry, I see the exoskeleton explanation I made versus humans skin/muscles was confusing, my fault. Indeed mantids have muscles, however physical therapy will be unable to affect the muscles inside the hard exoskeleton.  Although I found a insect study shows insects can still move without muscle.

For any chance to have helped straighten the leg it would have to been done while he was initially drying out half molted, as they remove themselves about 80% and dry/harden for 30 minutes to 1.5 hours before finishing the molt. Although while it is in the still softened state any movement can stretch (which will not return to normal) and break the soft exoskeleton.

To put their survival outside in simple terms, that is while some species lay a dozen ooths per female and each ooth hatches 100+ nymphs each (1200+ nymphs total) - just for a few dozen likely to live on.



cwebster said:


> So if they dont have muscles and just chitin, how do they control their limbs? Something inside the tubemustcontrol things. People want to meet aliens...they are all around us.


Chitin is the material the exoskeleton is made of, see my above response to the confusion.

It seems they actually use a mixture of muscles and biochemical means. A rather interesting study is found here about it. Aliens though indeed, you should read about their 5 eyes or ear (I couldn't find a better link, as the most informative I've read are from books).


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## cwebster (Dec 22, 2016)

Thomas, enjoyed the links. Am amazed more and more by the complexity and talents of these little guys. Wish they lived longer. I know explosive breeders like mantids and tree frogs survive by reproducing in numbers so that individuals are expendible, but each individual i have known is sure memorable. We have 18 yr old pacific treefrogs and an 18 yr old plecostomus.  I wish with the best care we could keep the mantids alive longer and get to know them too as individuals for a long time. They are lovely, intelligent, personable, and very good at what they do, and definitely underrated by people. I hope Minty is around longer. I feel terrible for not giving him better humidity. Will get better habitats and a humidifier.


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## CosbyArt (Dec 23, 2016)

@cwebster Me as well, they all seem to have personalities and traits (some learned) that really make them stand out years later even.  The longest lived one I had was a Ghost (Phyllocrania paradoxa) female that lived 15 months, and member Precarious had a mantid that lived to 18 months (the longest lived I've ever heard that wasn't some random "tall tale" Facebook type post).  

Very nice to hear you have some great treefrogs, and very long lived too - I had no idea about them. The oldest pet I have is black house cat named Smokey that we got as a stray kitten that wasn't quite even 2 months old, he actually turned 18 himself recently (we found/got him in 1998 right before I got married).

The shot lifespan of mantids is a drawback to be sure, and one reason I have been branching into other exotic pets too such as arachnids. They live 2 to 30+ years depending on species/individual (with some nearly reaching 40 years). At the moment I have five different species, and seventeen pet arachnids, which amazingly my family is at peace with as originally I could not have a single one.


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## Serle (Dec 23, 2016)

Surprizing how well Mantids and Tarantulas coincide as pets . I have had them before and want to acquire more to go with my Mantis .


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## CosbyArt (Dec 23, 2016)

Serle said:


> Surprizing how well Mantids and Tarantulas coincide as pets . I have had them before and want to acquire more to go with my Mantis .


Well I say arachnids as my tarantula is just one of them.  I also have Tigrosa helluo &amp; Pardosa sp., Mastigoproctus giganteus, and Phidippus audax &amp; Platycryptus Undatus.  

I agree though they are great and use the same feeders, basic habitats, humidity, and such too.


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## cwebster (Dec 23, 2016)

Love the spider photos! We follow the outdoor orb weavers very closely around our house outside each year but have had no pet arachnids yet. Wolf spiders seem especially interesting, with their intelligence. Havent gotten tarantulas due to the urticating hairs. But would love to care for Florida whip spiders as they are reportedly docile and social. Rescued a brown and red house spider last week from a pholcus and thought about making him our first pet spider. Am constantly taking steatodas outside because they breed so fast and do bite sometimes, and there are black widows all over outside where we live. We just learn where they are and stay out of their way. 

Am impressed that you had mantises for 15 and 18 months. Awesome!


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## CosbyArt (Dec 24, 2016)

cwebster said:


> Love the spider photos! We follow the outdoor orb weavers very closely around our house outside each year but have had no pet arachnids yet. Wolf spiders seem especially interesting, with their intelligence. Havent gotten tarantulas due to the urticating hairs. But would love to care for Florida whip spiders as they are reportedly docile and social. Rescued a brown and red house spider last week from a pholcus and thought about making him our first pet spider. Am constantly taking steatodas outside because they breed so fast and do bite sometimes, and there are black widows all over outside where we live. We just learn where they are and stay out of their way.
> 
> Am impressed that you had mantises for 15 and 18 months. Awesome!


Thanks  

Orb weavers are great, and we have many around as well. I haven't kept one of those however, as they require lots of room for their web and many require just the right amount of humidity for their web to function properly (so I've read at Arachnoboards).

I found interesting enough the larger wolf spiders I have (Tigrosa helluo) actually dig tunnels/burrows which I've read they do not. I guess the ones I have never read that.  

Same here the Florida whip spiders (Phrynus marginemaculatus) (interesting article) or the larger Damon diadema are my list to try. Speaking of house spiders it was my first "pet" arachnid. It set itself up under the bathroom sink and I put fruit flies into it's tiny web for many weeks, then one day it abandoned it's web and didn't return.

I haven't seen a black widow (Latrodectus sp.) thankfully in my area but they do exist, same with the brown recluse (Loxosceles reclusa). I treat all arachnids I find/catch as potentially venomous to avoid problems though. In that regard I don't handle my pet arachnids either as they do not enjoy it and only leads to possible escapes or their physical harm. Of course some still make a escape onto my hand when adding prey, especially the inquisitive jumping spiders (Phidippus audax, Platycryptus Undatus, and Salticus scenicus) who do seem to get some enjoyment running around my hands.  

Yeah the older Ghost female mantid I lived 15 months, and seemed to keep going. She even ate the night before she passed away, although much slower than before and I suspected she was in her final days, and she died the following morning. The 18 month one was another member, Precarious.



CosbyArt said:


> and member Precarious had a mantid that lived to 18 months (the longest lived I've ever heard that wasn't some random "tall tale" Facebook type post).


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## cwebster (Dec 24, 2016)

Am very impressed that your Ghost mantis lived for 15 months. Not sure i could handle a loss though like that, she must have been a real member of the family by then. Minty seems so much more fragile since his molt into adulthood especially with his bad leg. Gave him some honey today. Since his last molt his wings and eyes are a bright green rather than tan, just like Honey Mantis. 

There are black widows in abundance here. Havent seen any brown recluses. Just the pesky steatodas everywhere...one was crawling on my arm earlier when i woke up on the sofa! I take them outside and let them go. They are so prolific, especially since there are a few tiny crickets who always get loose. I guess they think it is like a salad bar. The pholcuses have fascinating mating  and prey catching strategies but are cannibalistic and cant bite people. I love the wolf and jumping spiders due to their increased intelligence. As with frogs, i think spider species who move around and who are not sit and wait predators are smarter. 

Am hoping to find Florida whip spiders at some point in the next year for sale but want to get several because i hear they are social. Also will try to find some native walking sticks as i have seen them in this part of the state. Dont think they are as smart as the mantises though. Again, since they  just eat vegetation, they do not have to be as intelligent or fast as a creature who eats insects. But would like to learn about them.


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## CosbyArt (Dec 24, 2016)

cwebster said:


> Am very impressed that your Ghost mantis lived for 15 months. Not sure i could handle a loss though like that, she must have been a real member of the family by then. Minty seems so much more fragile since his molt into adulthood especially with his bad leg. Gave him some honey today. Since his last molt his wings and eyes are a bright green rather than tan, just like Honey Mantis.
> 
> There are black widows in abundance here. Havent seen any brown recluses. Just the pesky steatodas everywhere...one was crawling on my arm earlier when i woke up on the sofa! I take them outside and let them go. They are so prolific, especially since there are a few tiny crickets who always get loose. I guess they think it is like a salad bar. The pholcuses have fascinating mating  and prey catching strategies but are cannibalistic and cant bite people. I love the wolf and jumping spiders due to their increased intelligence. As with frogs, i think spider species who move around and who are not sit and wait predators are smarter.
> 
> Am hoping to find Florida whip spiders at some point in the next year for sale but want to get several because i hear they are social. Also will try to find some native walking sticks as i have seen them in this part of the state. Dont think they are as smart as the mantises though. Again, since they  just eat vegetation, they do not have to be as intelligent or fast as a creature who eats insects. But would like to learn about them.


Yeah my Ghost was always waiting for prey, or ready to come out and explore, and was a hard loss. Minty should learn to use his larger body and bad leg in time, usually in 1-2 weeks into adulthood there is a vast marked improvement of their condition/abilities.

Speaking of their eyes if you put him in a darkened room for an hour or so, than have a look at them they should appear much darker in color.  

Sounds like you know the cause of the steatoda invasion, and thankfully don't bother you especial with them crawling around during a nap. Perhaps the Wolf and Jumping spiders are more intelligent, but either way at least are more active pets.  

Peter offers both species on his website (although out of stock now), the Phrynus marginemaculatus and Damon diadema. If he is still out when you want to get some, send him a message and ask when he expects to get them back in stock.  

Walking sticks are great, but from my limited experience they are like mindless drones (of course some individuals do stand out from others, and I imagine different species will vary). They will flee from water, act like a stick/dead when frightened, sit around barely moving most of the time, and such. When placed on a hand they will act like a stick/dead until they give up on the effort and continually try to flee until placed back into their habitat - often being so clumsy that they will easily fall repetitively during their attempt to flee.

For their redeeming qualities I will leave that up to you to discover.


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## cwebster (Dec 25, 2016)

Mintys eyes are bright green now but his wings are black for the most part. He seems old and  frail and have not seen him eat so offered him honey which he seemed to enjoy. Thank you for the link for whip spiders and for the observations about walking sticks.


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## CosbyArt (Dec 25, 2016)

cwebster said:


> Mintys eyes are bright green now but his wings are black for the most part. He seems old and  frail and have not seen him eat so offered him honey which he seemed to enjoy. Thank you for the link for whip spiders and for the observations about walking sticks.


He should be active and fresh from the recent molt, but might be adjusting. Feeding wise though males eat much less than females, especially as adults. The majority of my males tend to eat twice a week, and have gone 2 weeks before finally eating.

Keep an eye on him to ensure he is able to catch prey with his raptorial forearms, and eat properly. Sometimes with a molt issue there could be problems that are not easily visible, but will be from their eating. In the meantime the honey will keep his energy up.

Your welcome and have fun with any new pets you do get.


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## cwebster (Dec 28, 2016)

Thomas, we got a Homedics cool mist ultrasonic humidifier today. Is it ok to use reverse osmosis water? I dont want to hurt Minty Mantis. I will put a hygrometer in the bathroom to try to increase the humidity to about 60 %. Will consider whether it would be better to put a small hose into his mesh cage. This is supposed to serve a medium size room and runs for 44 hrs with a full tank. Any suggestions? He seems to be eating but one foreleg is kind of weaker. Have given him a little honey a few times per day.


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## CosbyArt (Dec 31, 2016)

As you responded to two topics about your humidifier I simply pasted your quotes here to respond to them all at once.  



cwebster said:


> Thomas, we got a Homedics cool mist ultrasonic humidifier today. Is it ok to use reverse osmosis water? I dont want to hurt Minty Mantis. I will put a hygrometer in the bathroom to try to increase the humidity to about 60 %. Will consider whether it would be better to put a small hose into his mesh cage. This is supposed to serve a medium size room and runs for 44 hrs with a full tank. Any suggestions? He seems to be eating but one foreleg is kind of weaker. Have given him a little honey a few times per day.


Reverse Osmosis water for humidifiers is preferred due to the lack of minerals and other impurities that are filtered out, which will make your humidifier last longer and help prevent the white chalky build-up of minerals/etc from the humid air drying on nearby objects.

Is Minty's foreleg still weak? What problems are associated with it?

Suggestion wise it sounds like you have everything covered in your quotes below, besides what I will mention there. If you have anything else specific though just ask.



cwebster said:


> Ok, we bought a Homedics humidifier at Costco. Minty is now enjoying higher humidity plus a stable temp. Am trying to keep the humidity at about 60 and temp at about 70. He seems happier. He is grooming more and seems more cheery.


Great to hear you got one.  With it running 44hours per tank fill-up is a great plus for you (less refills) - but likely is the run-time with the control set to the minimum.

Nice to hear he seems to be enjoying it and more active.








cwebster said:


> The humidifier may ge too strong. Is 70% harmful? Thanks.


Humidity higher than rated in their care sheets can be harmful, and in some species will lead to their death (I've read a few species are very sensitive to it). Your species however shouldn't be that affected, but I would recommend adjusting the humidifier's control to decrease the humidity level/on time to get 50-55% (that way bumps of higher/lower humidity will be in range).


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## cwebster (Dec 31, 2016)

Tohomas, thanks for your help. Mintys foreleg looks ok but he doesnt seem to be grabbing bugs as much as id like to see. He looks kind of thin. He gets around fine and nibbles at offered honey and grooms more than he used to. I so hope he will literally hang around a lot longer. The humidifier is too powerful even on the lowest setting so i turn it on and off but i wont be able to do that when i go back to work this week. Am using reverse osmosis water.


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## CosbyArt (Jan 1, 2017)

cwebster said:


> Tohomas, thanks for your help. Mintys foreleg looks ok but he doesnt seem to be grabbing bugs as much as id like to see. He looks kind of thin. He gets around fine and nibbles at offered honey and grooms more than he used to. I so hope he will literally hang around a lot longer. The humidifier is too powerful even on the lowest setting so i turn it on and off but i wont be able to do that when i go back to work this week. Am using reverse osmosis water.


It could be he is just being the typical male mantid and not eating much. You may have some luck though offering him smaller prey (easier to tackle and eat, and preferred by some) or other feeders than usually offered.

For the humidifier, if you are using tubes to "pipe" the humidity to your mantis then simply move the tube further away. Or if it is simply treating the air in the room, then open the doors or such to help lessen the humidity level.

The best option though is to get a humidity controller, here is such a unit. You plug your humidifier power cord into the controller outlet, place the humidity sensor in/near the mantis habitat, and set the humidity controller level wanted. It will then turn your humidifier on and off as needed, and most are accurate within 1%. Personally though I use a more DIY version, it works great but everything has to be screwed into the controller strips (and a fuse unit and such have to be added manually for safety) or wall outlet plugs have to be added to the unit - not a simple plug and use type.


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## cwebster (Jan 2, 2017)

Thomas, thanks again for the humidifier suggestions, i apologize for misspellings in my last post. I hate autocorrect and dont always catch any changes. Will check out the links. Have been considering a humidifier i found: http://www.allergybuyersclub.com/powerpure-2000-cool-mist-ultrasonic-humidifier.html. Am worried Minty will drop dead the minute i get something. Am going to take the current humidifier back because i have to basically turn it on and off every hour or it gets way too humid and i have to go back to work. Cant leave the room door open or the cats will get inside and dump the six cricket containers and if i leave the window cracked it is hard to keep Minty at the right temp when ut is about 35 to 40 F outside. So think it is time for a new humidifier with a controller or to add one as you suggested.  Minty looked thin and a little shaky so handed him a two week plus cricket. He dropped the first one but ate the second one offered. He seems to have a little trouble with one raptorial leg but seemed happier after eating the offered bug. Will order something tomorrow to work better than the current humidifier. Hope all your critters are doing well.


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## CosbyArt (Jan 4, 2017)

cwebster said:


> Thomas, thanks again for the humidifier suggestions, i apologize for misspellings in my last post. I hate autocorrect and dont always catch any changes. Will check out the links. Have been considering a humidifier i found: http://www.allergybuyersclub.com/powerpure-2000-cool-mist-ultrasonic-humidifier.html. Am worried Minty will drop dead the minute i get something. Am going to take the current humidifier back because i have to basically turn it on and off every hour or it gets way too humid and i have to go back to work. Cant leave the room door open or the cats will get inside and dump the six cricket containers and if i leave the window cracked it is hard to keep Minty at the right temp when ut is about 35 to 40 F outside. So think it is time for a new humidifier with a controller or to add one as you suggested.  Minty looked thin and a little shaky so handed him a two week plus cricket. He dropped the first one but ate the second one offered. He seems to have a little trouble with one raptorial leg but seemed happier after eating the offered bug. Will order something tomorrow to work better than the current humidifier. Hope all your critters are doing well.


No problem, and is rather common.  

Well for the money for the unit you linked to, you could instead by the #1 selling humidifier from Amazon (with a 4.4 out of 5 stars from 4000+ reviews) and have enough money left to buy a automatic humidity controller as well (would be free shipping if purchased together too). That would give Minty the perfect humidity, and with the smaller room the humidifier would likely need to be filled only once a day.  

Sounds as if Minty does have another molted leg issue then with with frontal leg/raptioral forearm. If that is the case I would suggest using smaller crickets, and/or using tweezers to remove the crickets big hind legs (which will even the playing field for Minty allowing him to eat easier, and a trick I do for most of my mantids).


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## cwebster (Jan 5, 2017)

Thomas, our Inkbird controller from Amazon arrived today and is working great. It controls both the temperature and humidity nearly perfectly. We found it because it was listed near the link you sent. Thanks!


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## CosbyArt (Jan 6, 2017)

cwebster said:


> Thomas, our Inkbird controller from Amazon arrived today and is working great. It controls both the temperature and humidity nearly perfectly. We found it because it was listed near the link you sent. Thanks!


That is great to hear it solved your problem and is working so well.  Your welcome, and glad I could help.


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## cwebster (Jan 7, 2017)

The only trick is to make sure when i bathe in the room to put the sensor in a plastic bag or towel. Otherwise the alarm goes off that the humidity is out of range. Minty seems happy and doing fine. He ate a cricket out of my hand two days ago and continues to nibble at his treat honey despite his bad back rear leg.


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## CosbyArt (Jan 7, 2017)

cwebster said:


> The only trick is to make sure when i bathe in the room to put the sensor in a plastic bag or towel. Otherwise the alarm goes off that the humidity is out of range. Minty seems happy and doing fine. He ate a cricket out of my hand two days ago and continues to nibble at his treat honey despite his bad back rear leg.


I bet a shower does send the controller into a fit; however, sounds like you found a way by it.  If nothing else you could also switch it off before, and back on after bathing too.

Great to hear about Minty, and he should get better with his leg as he ages and learns to use it.


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