# What do you say?



## Fisherman_Brazil (Oct 20, 2008)

Mantis religiosa (European mantis) found here in Taiwan do not require over the winter (diapause). Are they still the same species (with the ones found in other continents)?

Photo shown is the specimem found here in Taiwan.


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## sidewinder (Oct 20, 2008)

Everything I have read says _Mantis religiosa_ needs a period of colder temperatures to break diapause. Are you sure you have _M. religiosa_ in Taiwan?

Scott


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## kamakiri (Oct 20, 2008)

Do they have the 'eye' spot on the inside of the front legs?


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## Rick (Oct 20, 2008)

If they are those then they do need one. If no eyespots in armpits it is something else.


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## Birdfly (Oct 21, 2008)

Maybe its a sub species and therefore slightly different in its requirements


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## Hypoponera (Oct 21, 2008)

I had questions about this awhile ago when Fisherman_Brazil first told me about _M.religiosa _in Taiwan. I sent an email about it to Dr. Yager and got this in response:

"Because mantises are primarily tropical in distribution, the issue of diapause doesn't come up often. Even M. religiosa, which needs diapause over some of its range, does not in others (southern Europe, Africa)."

So there are some populations of _M. religiosa_ that do not require a diapause. Quite possible that a "southern" poulation has set up in Taiwan. So yes, it is quite possible for _M. religiosa _to survive and breed in Taiwan.


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Oct 21, 2008)

I still keep a dozen of nymphs from next generation of the wild-collected specimem that is the pictures you have seen. Hope I can raise them to another generation and send some ooth outside of the country for you gentlemen to verify.


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## sidewinder (Oct 21, 2008)

Hypoponera,

That is quite fascinating information. I knew that _Tenodera sinensis_ did not require diapause but never heard that about any population of _Mantis religiosa_ that did not.

I wonder how a mantid taxonomist would deal with this since some populations of _M. religiosa_ do require a period of colder temperatures to break diapause. The implication to me is that we have two very closely related mantids but at the very least they are different subspecies.

Scott


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## Borya (Oct 21, 2008)

*Rick*, there may be M.rel without eyespots. Only black spots without white circles.

About two years ago I posted about M.rel ooth hatched 2 months after being layed, with no cold period. There were about 200 hatchlings (ooth was huge). It was brought from Crimea, Ukraine, where mantids have winter diapause.

Maybe winter diapause is not as necessary as it seems?


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## kamakiri (Oct 21, 2008)

[SIZE=24pt]*Do they have the EYE SPOT?*[/SIZE]


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## Hypoponera (Oct 21, 2008)

Salomonis,

A taxonomist shouldn't have any problems. This is simply an adaptation to environment. M. religiosa is native to a huge area with multiple climates. The population found in Africa looks identical to those found in central Europe. Now, over a huge span of time, it is possible that the 2 populations could evolve into 2 different species. But they are currently the same species. A question I would ask is if you cross members of both populations, will the ooth require a diapause? Is it possible for say half the eggs to hatch without a diapause while the others require a diapause?


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## MantidLord (Oct 21, 2008)

Well, maybe they could end up having post-annum hatching, where they can hatch almost whenever? I was shocked when my I. oratorias hatched in the fall with no cold dispause at all. In fact, they hatched 2 weeks after being layed. Joosa told me that they need cold dispause to hatch and to have high hatch rates, but they seemed to not be the case here. I do live in a different area than he does, so maybe climate can change the need for dispause.


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## Hypoponera (Oct 21, 2008)

Fisherman_brazil,

That sounds good to me. I have not had good results with M. religiosa. So anything that might help improve chances of success would be great!


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Oct 21, 2008)




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## Hypoponera (Oct 21, 2008)

MantidLord,

I also hatched out one of those ooths from Joosa. Mine spent 3 months in the fridge. What I couldn't believe was that it took almost 2 months for the ooth to fully empty out. I got loads of stragglers. Maybe one nymph a week after the initial burst out. I don't think I. oritoria needs a diapause though. I will try to breed these and place a couple ooths in the fridge and a couple in incubation. With luck, I will find out for sure.

Joosa is trying to duplicate the environment that is in his area. Since the species does well there, that seems logical to me. The species does well in Tucson as well though. Since it isn't very cold there, I see no reason the species can not survive just fine without a freeze or cold period.


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## Hypoponera (Oct 21, 2008)

Great photos Luke! I believe those are eye spots. Seems to me that you have M. religiosa my friend. By the way, how many other species have eye spots like that?


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Oct 21, 2008)

MantidLord said:


> Well, maybe they could end up having post-annum hatching, where they can hatch almost whenever? I was shocked when my I. oratorias hatched in the fall with no cold dispause at all. In fact, they hatched 2 weeks after being layed. Joosa told me that they need cold dispause to hatch and to have high hatch rates, but they seemed to not be the case here. I do live in a different area than he does, so maybe climate can change the need for dispause.


The hatch had been great, but I decided to keep only a dozen!


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## kamakiri (Oct 21, 2008)

Fisherman, Thanks for the pics...I just didn't want to discuss further without a positive ID.

But that said, I have wondered if the diapause requirements are more of a "delta T" requirement or a temp range requirement. I used to breed fancy goldfish and and average temp drop of about 10 deg F followed by an increase in temp would trigger spawning. The absolute temps didn't matter as much. I have wondered if the same is true of mantises.

I have 6 _M. religiosa_ ooths so far this season and was planning to try to hatch one or two without the diapause indoors.


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## MantidLord (Oct 21, 2008)

Hypoponera said:


> MantidLord,I also hatched out one of those ooths from Joosa. Mine spent 3 months in the fridge. What I couldn't believe was that it took almost 2 months for the ooth to fully empty out. I got loads of stragglers. Maybe one nymph a week after the initial burst out. I don't think I. oritoria needs a diapause though. I will try to breed these and place a couple ooths in the fridge and a couple in incubation. With luck, I will find out for sure.
> 
> Joosa is trying to duplicate the environment that is in his area. Since the species does well there, that seems logical to me. The species does well in Tucson as well though. Since it isn't very cold there, I see no reason the species can not survive just fine without a freeze or cold period.


That's what I was expecting, I heared that the species hatches out in waves. But mine completely burst out simultaneously. I was also lucky enough to see a wild ooth hatch as well, and it had about 30+ nymphs surrounding the ooth. All of mine stopped hatching (I suppose because of the colder weather), so hopefully they'll resume hatching once winter is over.

The species thrives well here (Las Vegas) as well. Though the winter months do get pretty cold here. I put three ooths in the fridge, but those are being donated. Last year I put two ooths from a mated female in the fridge, and they never hatched. Though I doubt it had anything to do with it being put in the fridge. Only time will tell. For now, I'm just trying to get the nymphs that did hatch back on track with the wild mantids. Hopefully I can breed them before January.


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## sidewinder (Oct 21, 2008)

Hypoponera said:


> Sidewinder,A taxonomist shouldn't have any problems. This is simply an adaptation to environment. M. religiosa is native to a huge area with multiple climates. The population found in Africa looks identical to those found in central Europe. Now, over a huge span of time, it is possible that the 2 populations could evolve into 2 different species. But they are currently the same species. A question I would ask is if you cross members of both populations, will the ooth require a diapause? Is it possible for say half the eggs to hatch without a diapause while the others require a diapause?


Hypoponera,

If the oothecae of _Mantis religiosa_ in central Europe require a period of colder temperatures to break diapause and the oothecae of _M. religiosa_ in Africa do not need a diapause at all, doesn't this adaption imply that the _M. religiosa_ in Africa have evolved into a subspecies (or vice versa)? The results of interbreeding the two and what their oothecae require would be extremely interesting but that wouldn't have any bearing on whether or not the African examples are a subspecies of _M. religiosa_, would it? Subspecies can often interbreed successfully.

A species changing from requiring a diapause to not requiring one is not a simple adaption.

Isn't this different than a species, such as _Tenodera sinensis_, that support a diapause but do not require one?

Interesting stuff.....

Scott


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## joossa (Oct 21, 2008)

sidewinder said:


> Hypoponera,If the oothecae of _Mantis religiosa_ in central Europe require a period of colder temperatures to break diapause and the oothecae of _M. religiosa_ in Africa do not need a diapause at all, doesn't this adaption imply that the _M. religiosa_ in Africa have evolved into a subspecies (or vice versa)? The results of interbreeding the two and what their oothecae require would be extremely interesting but that wouldn't have any bearing on whether or not the African examples are a subspecies of _M. religiosa_, would it? Subspecies can often interbreed successfully.
> 
> A species changing from requiring a diapause to not requiring one is not a simple adaption.
> 
> ...


Ahh... the joys and beautiful wonders of taxonomy and taxonomic composition.  

This is all very interesting, BTW!


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## Hypoponera (Oct 21, 2008)

Hey Salomonis,

Thanks for pointing out the name change. I was trying to figure out how I messed that up!

You are now entering the weird and wacky world of taxonomy. What makes a species unique from another? There is an ant species complex composed of 10+ different species that can only be told apart by genetic analysis. They are externally identical. No one has been able to tell me if they will breed as each species is in a different section of Europe. So at what point do we say one is a species, sub-species, or all one species with wide genetic differences?

It is possible that the southern population has simply lost the requirement. With no cold period to work with, only those specimens who lacked the genetic trait requiring the diapause would have survived in the south. This "ability" would have been considered a useless trait in the northern part of the range. So if a mutation occured and the genes for diapause were turned off, the animal could survive without cold weather. That does not mean the mantid can not survive winter in the north. A portion of the population with the non-diapause genes would grow and pass the gene on. Then some migrate southward.

It also might be possible that the gene for diapause is dominent and the gene for non-diapause is recesive. Maybe the poulation in the south has breed out the dominent gene in favor for the recesive. Much like eye color in humans. Most of the people I know in Norway had blue eyes. Blue is recesive. When I moved to Italy, the common eye color was brown. Brown is dominent But having blue eyes does not put you in a different species catagory from someone with brown or green eyes.

Am I make any sense? If so, please explain it to me! I am starting to give myself a headache!


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## sidewinder (Oct 21, 2008)

Hypoponera,

For the central European _Mantis religiosa_ to require diapause while the African _M. religiosa_ does not, tells me that the two are genetically different in a significant way.

This is not a simple difference either. For example, if the central European _M. religiosa_ did not require a diapause, the species could die out if summer lasted longer than usual. The oothecae could incubate and hatch. Then, when winter arrived, all the young mantids would die. Conversely, if a the African _M. religiosa_ required a diapause, they might never hatch.

Basically, neither population could afford to be different than they are in regards to diapause.

To me, that means they are different species or a species and a subspecies. Maybe:

_Mantis religiosa_

_Mantis religiosa okhidiapausis_

 

But hey, what do I know?

Scott


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## Orin (Oct 22, 2008)

Taiwan still has seasons, there's no reason to believe that a very specific temperature range is required (consider the range of temperatures across the species range in just the US or Europe).


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## sidewinder (Oct 22, 2008)

Orin,

Taiwan has a marine tropical climate which tells us the mean temperature is above 64.4 °F (18.0 °C) all year long. There is no way the climate in Taiwan would break diapause for a central or northern European _Mantis religiosa_.

_Mantis religiosa_ is also present in African countries. One such country is Ghana which is few degrees north of the Equator. If _M. religiosa_ in Ghana required a diapause, it would die out.

The only way _M. religiosa_ makes any sense in Taiwan and Ghana is if the populations in both countries do not require diapause. _Mantis religiosa_ in central or northern Europe absolutely require a period of colder temperatures to break diapause.

Scott


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## kamakiri (Oct 22, 2008)

It's entirely possible that diapause is triggered by a relatively high temperature...say something like 65 or 68 degrees F.


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## sidewinder (Oct 22, 2008)

Orin and kamakiri,

Did you guys read this:



Hypoponera said:


> I had questions about this awhile ago when Fisherman_Brazil first told me about _M.religiosa _ in Taiwan. I sent an email about it to Dr. Yager and got this in response:"Because mantises are primarily tropical in distribution, the issue of diapause doesn't come up often. Even M. religiosa, which needs diapause over some of its range, does not in others (southern Europe, Africa)."
> 
> So there are some populations of _M. religiosa_ that do not require a diapause. Quite possible that a "southern" poulation has set up in Taiwan. So yes, it is quite possible for _M. religiosa _to survive and breed in Taiwan.


Dr. Yager is the Dr. David Yager that contributed to the book "The Praying Mantids". He knows what he is talking about. If he says there are _M. religiosa_ in parts of the world that don't need a diapause, I would tend to believe him.

Scott


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## MantidLord (Oct 22, 2008)

Wish I could contact this guy. But how do any of you suppose that this came to be? Do you believe that it some how adapted to not require dispause? Or that it will potentially "evolve" into a completely different species like someone previously though?


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## sidewinder (Oct 22, 2008)

MantidLord,

Let's assume for a moment that Dr. David Yager is correct and _Mantis religiosa_ in tropical regions do not require a diapause for their oothecae to hatch. Either the _M. religiosa_ in tropical regions adapted to not require a diapause or the _M. religiosa_ in temperate regions adapted to require one.

Keep in mind that the adaption to require a diapause is quite important in temperate regions. Without the diapause, oothecae subjected to extended warm temperatures would hatch late in the season and the nymphs would die at the first frost. This would decimate the species in the areas affected and would eventually cause extinction.

In my mind, a test to determine if the tropical and temperate populations of _M. religiosa_ are the same species would be to take an ootheca from each and place it in the others habitat. Take a freshly laid ootheca from an African _M. religiosa_ and put in Northern Europe at the same time the indigenous _M. religiosa_ are laying their first oothecae. Take a freshly laid Northern European _M. religiosa_ ootheca and place it in Africa. Then see what happens.

What does anyone here think would happen?

Scott


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## Hypoponera (Oct 22, 2008)

I don't think your test would be much help. The northern ooth would not hatch, but the southern ooth in central europe would probably do just fine. With the possible exception of _L. minor_, no US mantid requires a diapause to survive winter. But _Stegmomantis sp, Yersiniops sp, Tenodera sp_, and _Iris oritoria _all do quite well. Yes, a few ooths are killed off by late frosts. But the species survive. I think the same would be true of the southern _M. religiosa _ooth placed in central Europe. But that's not to say your test isn't worth trying.

The test I would like to try is breeding specimens from both populations for a few generations. I am still a believer in the old definition of a species. If that cross produces viable offspring, then they are the same species. If the offspring are sterile, then they are two different, but very closely related species.

Looks like we will need a supply of Luke's _M. religiosa _to work with!


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## sidewinder (Oct 23, 2008)

Hypoponera,

I think you are correct, the freshly laid Northern European _Mantis religiosa_ ootheca would never hatch in Africa. I think the freshly laid ootheca from an African _M. religiosa_ would hatch in northern Europe but it could be at the end of the season and all nymphs would die. I suspect the two populations bred together could produce viable offspring that could reproduce. That's why I would say that one population is a subspecies of the other. Similar to _Canis lupus_ and _C. l. familiaris_.

You are right, I should not have used the word "require" in my diapause statement regarding species found in temperate regions. I should have used "support" instead. This means there must be some noticeable time delay in the start of the incubation process otherwise ootheca from temperate species that don't require the diapause would start the incubation process before the cold temperatures arrived. Or is there some other mechanism in play here that I am missing?

Scott


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## Hypoponera (Oct 23, 2008)

There are many possible environmental conditions that may speed-up or delay hatching. Heat units are the one we usually think of. But some species may also respond to changes in photo period and/or humidity levels. Only some serious research would tell for sure. I don't think any research into diapause has actually been done.

Our native species have the ability to survive a normal winter just fine. So the onset of cold weather must delay hatching. But that cold exposure is not a requirement. _S. limbata _ooths usually take 8 weeks to hatch at 80F. So that produces a safety window to help the developing eggs. They have a good chance of not hatching until the risk of a late freeze has passed. I do not know the minimal time of development needed for _M. religiosa_. So it is possible that a southern ooth would survive in central Europe just as well.


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## sidewinder (Oct 23, 2008)

Hypoponera,

My question would be can the incubation start and then be halted or does the incubation process need to start and finish after the cold season. In other words, can the young begin to develop in the egg and stop that process because of cold weather? Or, once the young start to develop, must that process finish?

Scott


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## MantidLord (Oct 23, 2008)

So if one did adapt from another, which one adapted from which? In other words, where does the species originate? I know its common name is European mantis, but I just want to be sure since it's so widespread.


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## Orin (Oct 23, 2008)

salomonis said:


> Did you guys read thisr. Yager is the Dr. David Yager that contributed to the book "The Praying Mantids". He knows what he is talking about. If he says there are _M. religiosa_ in parts of the world that don't need a diapause, I would tend to believe him.
> 
> Scott


Southern Europe has seasons. If you had evidence that _ M. religiosa _has multiple generations each year or other plausible explanation for a year-long growth cylce without diapause in those countries that would be a far different story. I imagine Dr. Yager's quote doesn't say what you think you're reading.


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## sidewinder (Oct 23, 2008)

MantidLord,

It is important to note that basically all insects species trace their origin to the tropical equatorial zone. And, from what I have read, no successful insects in the tropical equatorial zone trace their roots to extratropical species. Based on that information, it would make sense that _Mantis religiosa_ evolved in the tropics and spread to Europe from there. As the species moved farther north, it had to adapt to the temperate seasonal climate via obligatory diapause in the ootheca stage.

So I need to change which population I label as species and subspecies. Here is what I propose the new names should be:

_Mantis religiosa_

Mantis religiosa diapausa

Mantis religiosa diapausa would be the name for the European population.

Yes, we will see this tomorrow in all entomological text!!  

Scott


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## sidewinder (Oct 23, 2008)

Orin said:


> Southern Europe has seasons. If you had evidence that _ M. religiosa _has multiple generations each year or other plausible explanation for a year-long growth cylce without diapause in those countries that would be a far different story. I imagine Dr. Yager's quote doesn't say what you think you're reading.


Orin,

Why don't you tell us what you think Dr. Yager's quote does say. Here is the quote again:

"Because mantises are primarily tropical in distribution, the issue of diapause doesn't come up often. Even M. religiosa, which needs diapause over some of its range, does not in others (southern Europe, Africa)."

Let's assume for a moment that Dr. Yager made a mistake including southern Europe in his statement. What about Ghana in Africa? The only seasons there are "wet" and "dry" and both are hot. There is no way diapause could be broken in Ghana so the _Mantis religiosa_ there would breed year round. Or do you have some explanation as to how this would not be the case?

Scott


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## Hypoponera (Oct 23, 2008)

Hey Orin,

True, southern Europe does have seasons. But I don't remember many harsh winters when I lived in northern Italy. Likewise, Egypt does have a winter of sorts, but it wasn't harsh like Germany had. The winters in these southern locals would be cold enough to stop egg development until spring. So I believe 2 or more generations are not a needed requirement.

I think the quote was quite to the point. The southern poulation does not require a diapause. It still may only go through a single generation per year though. A second generation would require a location on or very near the equator. Does the species exist at such a location? If so, start looking for multiple generations. Then again, maybe keeping some of Luke's mantids at a steady 95F year round will produce multiple generations. So again, we need to work with some of Luke's stocks!


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## sidewinder (Oct 23, 2008)

Hypoponera said:


> A second generation would require a location on or very near the equator.


According to page 283 of _The Praying Mantids_, the species _Mantis religiosa_ is present in Ghana. Ghana is very near the equator. What could stop _M. religiosa_ in Ghana from having overlapping generations and multiple generation per year?

Scott


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## Hypoponera (Oct 23, 2008)

The only thing I can think of would be a dry season. It would be the equivalent of winter in northern climes. The ooth would need to be able to survive until water was available again.


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## sidewinder (Oct 23, 2008)

Hypoponera said:


> The only thing I can think of would be a dry season. It would be the equivalent of winter in northern climes. The ooth would need to be able to survive until water was available again.


So you suppose there could be a humidity-terminated egg diapause? Is there any precedent for this in mantids?

Scott


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## Hypoponera (Oct 24, 2008)

I am not sure if there has been much study of mantid diapause at all! But humidity levels do cause other insects in other orders to break diapause. So it is a possibility. But, so is many other conditions or combination of conditions. Like I said, finding out for sure would take an awful lot of research. Not too many people have the time or desire to test mantid diapause conditions.


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## eaglewarrior (Oct 24, 2008)

I am Fisherman_Brazil's friend in Taiwan and was the person who had sent the ooth and the female to him. The female is collected in Kaohsiung, Taiwan. In Taiwan , some M. religiosa individuals are without the eye spots but only with black spots on the coxa of their front legs.

This female had laid an ooth before I sent it to Fisherman_Brazil, I put the ooth in normal temperature (around 75 to 84F) and watered it once a week, and It incubated about 70 nymphs in approximately a month.

I haven't breed M. religiosa in Europe before, but I'm sure that it doesn't need a period of colder temperatures to incubate.

Please forgive my poor English.


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## sidewinder (Oct 24, 2008)

eaglewarrior,

The _Mantis religiosa_ population in the cooler parts of Europe do require a diapause that is broken by winter. Based on information presented here, the _M. religiosa_ in Taiwan and Africa do not need a diapause.

In a calendar year, do the _M. religiosa_ in Taiwan have one generation or multiple generations?

Scott


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## eaglewarrior (Oct 24, 2008)

salomonis said:


> eaglewarrior,The _Mantis religiosa_ population in the cooler parts of Europe do require a diapause that is broken by winter. Based on information presented here, the _M. religiosa_ in Taiwan and Africa do not need a diapause.
> 
> In a calendar year, do the _M. religiosa_ in Taiwan have one generation or multiple generations?
> 
> Scott


In my observation, I can always find oothecae, nymphs and adults at the same time and the same place, furthermore, adults can also be found in winter, so I think it's multiple generations in Taiwan.


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## Hypoponera (Oct 24, 2008)

Hello Eaglewarrior!

Thanks for the excellent information! And your English is just fine my friend!


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## Orin (Oct 24, 2008)

Many of the insects in Taiwan follow seasons and have annual or biannual generations, it's a little hard to believe mantids would be year-round but anything is possible, especially with introduced creatures.



salomonis said:


> Let's assume for a moment that Dr. Yager made a mistake including southern Europe in his statement.


I does read like a mistake.


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## sidewinder (Oct 24, 2008)

Orin,

Is _Mantis religiosa_ an introduced species in Taiwan?

What about _M. religiosa_ i Africa? Do you think they are introduced there as well? There are no typical seasons in Ghana. How do you think _M. religiosa_ manages there if they were introduced?

Scott


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## kamakiri (Oct 24, 2008)

Scott...you can't believe *everything* you read even if written by experts more generally knowledgeable...

Seems to me that the _M. religiosa_ found in Africa may be a subspecies and the ones pictured earlier from Taiwan probably are *at least* a subspecies, if not an entirely new one. That is considering some of that population even lacks the white spot...and the ones in the pictures do not look particularly white (compared to my specimens/pets). I think extensive cross-breeding would be required to find out what the truth is.


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## sidewinder (Oct 24, 2008)

kamakiri said:


> Scott...you can't believe *everything* you read even if written by experts more generally knowledgeable...


The only thing that I have read that I have taken as "truth" is that _Mantis religiosa_ is present in Taiwan and Ghana. What, specifically, are you referring to?

Scott


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## kamakiri (Oct 24, 2008)

I'm talking about your "Did you guys read this:" about what Dr. Yager wrote. And also some of the assumptions you make below:



salomonis said:


> What about Ghana in Africa? The only seasons there are "wet" and "dry" and both are hot.


That's not correct:

http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/geography/climate.php



salomonis said:


> There is no way diapause could be broken in Ghana so the _Mantis religiosa_ there would breed year round. Or do you have some explanation as to how this would not be the case?


Like I said earlier, if diapause required a trigger time like 65 or 68 degrees F, then it would work even in Ghana based on the chart on the above page.

There are also other possible explanations like daylight duration which still happens to a lesser extent in the tropics. For example, in Hawaii, the summer and winter solstice variance is still over 2 hours.


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## tier (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi

I think its about two years ago now when I posted my opinion about this topic here in the forum. i wrote something like its impossible for south african religiosas to diapause.

Another point is that I dont like to give any information about this species because here in germany and in almost entire europe its forbidden by law to keep or breed this species...

Whatever, I know for most of you guyes its not forbidden at least the tribe is not from europe.

However, there is 11 subspecies of this species,

religiosa beybienkoi (asia)

relogiosa caucasica (guess from where)

r eichleri (africa)

r inornata (asia)

r langoalata (asia)

r latinota (asia)

r macedonica (guess from where)

r polonica (guess from where)

r siedleckii (asia, living in the real east asia, maybe this is the species this thread deals with)

r sinica (asia)

and of course religiosa religiosa, a cosmopolitan species. This species lives in areas with cold winters as well as in areas without cold winters 

(reference: Ehrmann 2002)

regards, tier

By the way, the ooth will tolerate temperatures from 100°C until -40°C as far as I remember


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## sidewinder (Oct 24, 2008)

kamakiri,

I said that if Dr. Yager says there are _Mantis religiosa_ in parts of the world that don't need a diapause, I would tend to believe him. And I still do!

We seem to have information from independent sources to back that up. I quoted a page in _The Praying Mantids_, in a chapter written by Dr. Malcom Edmunds and Dani Brunner. Now if you look here, you will see that Dr. Edmunds has many publications and has spent a lot of time studying animal life in Ghana:

http://www.uclan.ac.uk/scitech/built_natur...olm_edmunds.php

Note that there is a publication called "The defensive behaviour of Ghanaian praying mantids with a discussion of territoriality". If this Doctor says there are _M. religiosa_ in Ghana, I think it is safe to say there are _M. religiosa_ in Ghana.

Let's use Accra, Ghana as an example for your idea of a temperature based egg diapause. With an average low temperature of 74 degrees F, an egg diapause is without precedent. The daylight duration change from Summer to Winter solstice is a whopping 40 minutes so a daylight duration diapause is out of the question too.

We also have information from two members here regarding _M. religiosa_ in Taiwan.

It's not like I am grasping at straws here. The information is solid.

Scott


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## kamakiri (Oct 24, 2008)

Based on tier's post above, it looks to me that the ones in Africa are a subspecies. So it's more specific to *me* that some of the subspecies do not require the diapause.


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## sidewinder (Oct 24, 2008)

tier said:


> HiI think its about two years ago now when I posted my opinion about this topic here in the forum. i wrote something like its impossible for south african religiosas to diapause.
> 
> Another point is that I dont like to give any information about this species because here in germany and in almost entire europe its forbidden by law to keep or breed this species...
> 
> ...


tier,

This is fantastic information. It confirms my idea that the European _Mantis religiosa_ must be a different subspecies than the _M. religiosa_ found in tropical climatic zones. I didn't have any idea that there were so many subspecies.

Are you saying that it is illegal to keep or breed the European _M. religiosa_? Or does that apply to the tropical subspecies only?

Is _M. r. caucasica_ the European subspecies?

This is so cool!

Scott

P.S. Would some please translate that Ehrmann book into English!!!


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## sidewinder (Oct 24, 2008)

kamakiri said:


> Based on tier's post above, it looks to me that the ones in Africa are a subspecies. So it's more specific to *me* that some of the subspecies do not require the diapause.


This what I have been arguing for since the 8th post in this thread!!! If a _Mantis religiosa_ didn't need a diapause, it must be a subspecies.

Scott


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## Hypoponera (Oct 24, 2008)

Hello Tier,

Why do you think it is illegal to keep and breed M. religiosa in Germany? Seems odd that you can not keep a native species since mantid research is so solid in your country.

Do you have access to a key that shows how to seperate the different sub-species? Or is the seperation strictly based on collection location? Has any DNA analysis been done on the different sub-species?


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## MantidLord (Oct 24, 2008)

Man this is really interesting. But I still have a question: where would the original species of M. religiosa reside? Since all the ones listed by Tier were subspecies, where is the original. Maybe studying the differences between the "original" and subspecies could yield some more information


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## tier (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi

M. religiosa religiosa is the one living in germany. And its germanys only native mantid, its very very very rare (never seen one here) and only living in very few areas with special climate. Thats why its protected by law.

This is the species which needs a diapause as long as its from europe. But religiosa religiosa is native in more or less all parts of the world, that means:

The subspecies religiosa religiosa is diapausing in europe and north america, while its not diapausing in asia and africa. THE SAME SUBSPECIES!!!

No, I cannot distinguish the subspecies.

There is no "original", all are subspecies


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## sidewinder (Oct 24, 2008)

tier said:


> HiM. religiosa religiosa is the one living in germany. And its germanys only native mantid, its very very very rare (never seen one here) and only living in very few areas with special climate. Thats why its protected by law.
> 
> This is the species which needs a diapause as long as its from europe. But religiosa religiosa is native in more or less all parts of the world, that means:
> 
> ...


Tier,

How can _Mantis religiosa religiosa_ require a diapause in Europe and North America but not require one in Asia and Africa? It's not like the diapause difference is something minor. Wouldn't that not so small difference indicate a different subspecies?

Scott


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## tier (Oct 24, 2008)

Well, apparently not. I dont know.


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## eaglewarrior (Oct 25, 2008)

tier said:


> HiI think its about two years ago now when I posted my opinion about this topic here in the forum. i wrote something like its impossible for south african religiosas to diapause.
> 
> Another point is that I dont like to give any information about this species because here in germany and in almost entire europe its forbidden by law to keep or breed this species...
> 
> ...


I'll visit the "National Museum of Natural Science" in Taichung in a few days, I'll ask some entomologist there, maybe I can find out which subspecies is here.


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## Orin (Oct 25, 2008)

salomonis said:


> kamakiri,I said that if Dr. Yager says there are _Mantis religiosa_ in parts of the world that don't need a diapause, I would tend to believe him. And I still do!


So you admit part of a short quote is an error but that's not the part you believe? (or it is?)  You said something about grasping at staws...

The abliltiy to diapause or not diapause isn't going to make a new subspecies. A Chinese mantis that hatches out after 35 days in captivity doesn't suddently become a new subspecies. There are numerous insects that can diapause or not depending on stimuli.

As far as I understand Tier is saying there are no seasonal periods for the M. religiosa in tropical Africa so I'm guessing he has evidence they go through multiple generations each year. Just because it's not a different subspecies doesn't mean the specific population reacts the same (maybe these would be much easier to hatch out in captivity).


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## sidewinder (Oct 25, 2008)

Orin said:


> The abliltiy to diapause or not diapause isn't going to make a new subspecies. A Chinese mantis that hatches out after 35 days in captivity doesn't suddently become a new subspecies. There are numerous insects that can diapause or not depending on stimuli.As far as I understand Tier is saying there are no seasonal periods for the M. religiosa in tropical Africa so I'm guessing he has evidence they go through multiple generations each year. Just because it's not a different subspecies doesn't mean the specific population reacts the same (maybe these would be much easier to hatch out in captivity).


As I said before, I tend to believe what Dr. Yager says is accurate. Here is his text again:

"Because mantises are primarily tropical in distribution, the issue of diapause doesn't come up often. Even M. religiosa, which needs diapause over some of its range, does not in others (southern Europe, Africa)."

I take the implication that there are _Mantis religiosa_ in tropical regions as fact and have no reason to doubt what he says about diapause. It's possible he is in error about diapause and southern Europe, but I have no data to prove he is wrong. Do you??

Now, the point you are trying to make using _Tenodera sinensis_ is completely off base. _Tenodera sinensis_ is a species that supports, but does not require, a diapause. _Mantis religiosa_ does require a diapause in colder climatic regions. You can take a freshly laid _T. sinensis_ egg case from southern New England and hatch it at home without it going through a diapause. You can't take a freshly laid _M. religiosa_ from central Europe and hatch it at home if diapause has not been broken. You do understand that *ENORMOUS* difference, right?

Scott


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 26, 2008)

Hi,

I just joined this forum yesterday and own just one pair of locally caught Stagmomantis labiata, so forgive me for butting into this interesting discussion.

When I read the first entry in this thread yesterday, I thought, "Oh that happens to insects of the same species in different climates all the time." The replies from experienced members of this forum gave me pause, because I would imagine that my own species varies between diapausal and non diapausal eggs within the few hundred miles between Yuma, in the sothwest corner of the state and the Huachaca Mountains in the far southeast and a location of record for S. limbata. Even in the foothiolls of these mountains, the average winter low is 35F, aproximately the temperature of refrigerators that are used to induce diapause in captive ootheca. In Yuma, the official winter low is around 45F for a period of a few weeks in December, but it has been closer to 50F for the past decade, surely too high a temp. to induce diapause, particularly since other insects thrive throughout the winter.

I checked the internet for recent entomological papers on the subject, and found an interesting paper summary by Dennis Fielding of the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, which compares diaphase strategies of the migratory grasshopper, Melanophus sanguinpes in Alaska and Ohio: "The population from Idaho also diapaused at a late stage of development, but were able to skip diapause if chilled before entering diapause." I think that this suggests that among the orthoptera, at least (and I am old enough to still include the Mantidae in this Order), different populations of the same species living under different climatic condition can adopt different diapause strategies.

I don't know thether this helps, but at least I got my feet wet!


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## sidewinder (Oct 26, 2008)

PhilinYuma,

It sounds like the grasshopper species discussed supports diapause at a different stage of development than mantid species that inhabit temperate zones. Egg diapause and nymphal diapause can occur for different reasons.

Also, there is only one mantid species that I am aware of in the U.S. that requires a diapause (I would not be surprised if there are others). The other species support a diapause but eggs will hatch without one. That one species that requires a diapause happens to be _Mantis Religiosa_ which is the species this thread is all about.

Scott


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## sidewinder (Oct 26, 2008)

I read the abstract of the "Optimal diapause strategies of a grasshopper, _Melanoplus sanguinipes_" article mentioned by PhilinYuma and gleaned a little more information. The "late stage of development" mentioned refers to different stages of embryonic development, not egg versus nymph as I supposed. I don't have the whole article to read but it appears that the articles says the Idaho population of _M. sanguinipes_ can avoid diapause if prediapause embryos are subjected to a cold treatment (5°C) for 90 days. This cold treatment does not do the same thing for the Alaskan population of _M. sanguinipes_. The article abstract concludes that with the Alaskan _M. sanguinipes_, diapause was obligate (required) and with the Idaho _M. sanguinipes_, diapause was facultative (not required).

I would argue that these two populations are different subspecies. But, that is using the logic of someone that is not an entomologist or a taxonomist. Where is Christian when you need him??? I need to some education here.

Is it possible that the oothecae can be laid by _Mantis religiosa religiosa_ with the diapause "switch" in all embryo turned on or off depending on the climatic region the mantid is in? In other words, if we took several _M. r. religiosa_ nymphs hatched in Ghana and raised them outside in central Europe, would the oothecae they laid require a diapause and hatch in the spring?

Scott


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## Cosmic (Oct 26, 2008)

salomonis said:


> Also, there is only one mantid species that I am aware of in the U.S. that requires a diapause (I would not be surprised if there are others). The other species support a diapause but eggs will hatch without one. That one species that requires a diapause happens to be _Mantis Religiosa_ which is the species this thread is all about.Scott


Just to let you know it is possible to hatch "temperate" _M. religiosa_ without a diapause, I've done it on at least 2 occasions, although nymphs are somewhat weaker, it is still possible to raise them to adulthood.


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## sidewinder (Oct 26, 2008)

Cosmic said:


> Just to let you know it is possible to hatch "temperate" _M. religiosa_ without a diapause, I've done it on at least 2 occasions, although nymphs are somewhat weaker, it is still possible to raise them to adulthood.


Cosmic,

Where were these _Mantis religiosa_ collected?

Scott


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 26, 2008)

Fisherman_Brazil:

This thread is now so long that I had to go back to your original question, that no one has answered (lots of fun along the way, though), so here is the best answer that I can give you. Bear in mind that, like Salomonis, I have no academic credentials in entomology, population (or any other kind of) genetics or taxonomy, so correction by any more qualified person will be instructive. I can collate material though, and I am familar with the ways of academic establishments.

You say that your purported M religiosa does not undergo diapause, so could it be a different species? The answer is a decisive "yes" and "no".

Of course, you could have misidentified your specimens (that would be the "yes"), but assuming that you have not, and there is certainly a viable wild population (c.f. the British Mantis Study Group checklist for Taiwan), then there is no reason not to suppose that Taiwan supports a subspecies of M. religiosa marked by the ability to hatch without undergoing diapause. There is no need to even look at specimens of this drastically allopatric population in order to call it a subspecies. Decades ago, Sewall Wright, "the father of population genetics", defined a subspecies as a "geographic race" without recourse to specific morphological differences ( and no, darn it, I no longer have the books. Try Evaluation of the Genetics of Population and go to the chapter on "Species and Subspecies" Vol IV? Does anyone know?).

The question that that raised, was how can one subspecies differ so markedly from all the rest? I suggested that such a subspecies variation seems to occur in the Alaskan and Ohioan [sic?] populations of Melanoplus sanguinpes, and in his reply, I think that Salomonis hit the mark when he suggested that the diapause-initiating gene can be turned off or on according to the climate. My only objection to this was that it would suggest that M. religiosa that grew up in the wild in the Frozen North of the U.S. (or at least the F2 generation) and raised indoor at room temperature should hatch without diapause, but Cosmic's account of this species hatching in just this manner, though with rather feeble nymphs, tends to dispel that objection and suggests how the Taiwan subspecies became established. Based on Cosmic's observation, it seems at least plausible that when this insect was imported, presumably in the same way that it eneterd the U.S., on board ship, the first generation of ootheca survived the winter without diapause, and the few weeklings that survived were able to develop a populattion that did not need diaphase. There is nothing mysterious here. They were just lucky.

How about those on again, off again genes, though? Well, they exist in Bombyx mori, for sure. I found (another!) abstract, this time at "sciencdirect.com" which describes how "supression of DH-PBAN expression by silencing of the BmPitx successfully induced non-diapausid eggs from a diapause egg producer." Good luck with that! I lost a lot of it even while clutching my dog-eared college level, six year-old genetics text, but it demonstrates that the "diapause gene" can be turned off, and if that happens in silk moths then at least we have a mechanism for how it could happen in M. religiosa.

So where from here? One possibility is to keep a couple of your ooths in the refrigerater and see what happens in the Spring. Be aware, though, of a phenomenon called "genetic erosion". I don't know how long this species has been living in Taiwan, but their isolation and relatively small number of imports is bound to reduce their gene pool, and the diapause inducing gene might no longer function. It migt be more productive to import some ooths from the U.S. or Europe, and see how many, if any, survive a diapause free winter. A better bet (though I'm not saying don't expeiment!) might be to contact the entomology department at you university. In my experience, trying to find the right professor on the phone during his office hours is frequently a frustrating experience. Try using the university's website and locate an apropriate guy or send an enthusiastic and grovelling (both are necessary) Email to [email protected]&lt;[email protected]&gt; and hope for the best. If your university library has an open-door policy, you might try using the stacks with a pocketful of yuan in your pocket and photocopy anything of interest. If there has been a scientific study of this phenomenon, the experimental protoculs will be much more elegant and bullet proof than anything that we could come up with. Finally, I have a vague memory of an "Insect Museum", I think in Taapei. If it is still open, you might try finding a curator there. In my experience, they tend to be more immediately available than professors, and maybe you will get to see some "Good Stuff.

That's it. Good luck, and I am sure that most of the readers of this thread would be interested to hear what you discover.

And now back to the thread.....


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## eaglewarrior (Oct 27, 2008)

PhilinYuma said:


> Fisherman_Brazil:This thread is now so long that I had to go back to your original question, that no one has answered (lots of fun along the way, though), so here is the best answer that I can give you. Bear in mind that, like Salomonis, I have no academic credentials in entomology, population (or any other kind of) genetics or taxonomy, so correction by any more qualified person will be instructive. I can collate material though, and I am familar with the ways of academic establishments.
> 
> You say that your purported M religiosa does not undergo diapause, so could it be a different species? The answer is a decisive "yes" and "no".
> 
> ...


PhilinYuma:

Your seggestion sounds interesting. I am Fisherman_Brazil's friend, a college student in the department of Entomology, I think that I can do some experiment with him, hope I can soon report the result here.


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## sidewinder (Nov 3, 2008)

Fisherman_Brazil,

Is the _Mantis religiosa_ species you have in Taiwan a native species or was it introduced?

Scott


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## Christian (Nov 4, 2008)

Hi.

I was away and didn't read the whole topic. Sorry for this. To come back to the original question(s):

1. Mantis religiosa has several subspecies distribited over the Old World. The information in Ehrmann (2002) is outdated:

At moment I only accept the following subspecies:

_M. r. religiosa_: Europe to N Africa and C Asia (the N-American specimens also belong to this subspecies)

_M. r. polonica_: Poland to Belarus and parts of Russia

_M. r. eichleri_: tropical Africa

_M. r. griveaudi_: Madagascar

_M. r. beybienkoi_: C Asia &amp; Siberia to The Far East

_M. r. sinica_: E-Asia

_M. r. inornata_: Iran to India

_M. r. siedleckii_: SE Asia to Timor and Taiwan

The infos are from a book on this species I am co-authoring and which is still in preparation.

Thus, Taiwan obviously (after doing some research I cannot reject this fact originally proposed by Bazyluk 1960) bears _M. r. siedleckii_ (despite of _M. r. sinica_ occurring on mainland China), which is a tropical subspecies and, together with _M. r. eichleri, M. r. inornata_ and _M. r. griveaudi _don't require a diapause.

2. However, even specimens of temperate subspecies sometimes hatch successfully without undergoing a diapause, while others don't. There is still some genetically determined variability left in these populations. That's why this species is so successful: it can deal with many environments.

People are always puzzled by the fact that someone has experienced things which were contradictory to those experienced by others. This doesn't mean that one of them isn't right. Even if temperate _religiosa_ require a diapause (3. which has to be induced first in order to become irreversible!!), there may be strains which can do without one. This is no contradiction at all, it's just variability (see 3.)


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Nov 4, 2008)

Sorry for not answering you all gentlemen's response soon enough. The best for me to do, might be, having these nymphs grown soon enough and send them to some of you interested to identify or clarify in detailed.

By the way, eaglewarrior have been done a fine job!


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## MantidLord (Nov 4, 2008)

Christian said:


> Hi.I was away and didn't read the whole topic. Sorry for this. To come back to the original question(s):
> 
> 1. Mantis religiosa has several subspecies distribited over the Old World. The information in Ehrmann (2002) is outdated:
> 
> ...


I was waiting for you to join the thread


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## Hypoponera (Nov 5, 2008)

Hello Christian,

When will your book be available? Will it be available in English? Sorry, my German is limited to armor related lingo. I can talk to panzer crews about the tanks, but can not talk about the weather


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## Christian (Nov 5, 2008)

Unfortunately, it will still take a while. The task was greater than previously thought, even though the book focuses on one species only (_M. religiosa_). However, while researching all the stuff, you realize that many facts were interpreted wrongly in the past or had been just incomplete. So the work is more than you had anticipated before.

It will be in German, but we already think of a subsequent translation into English.


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Nov 15, 2008)




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## brancsikia (Nov 16, 2008)

Hypoponera said:


> ... Has any DNA analysis been done on the different sub-species?


Hi guys,

Yes, there is a DNA project on different populations/subspecies of Mantis religiosa. First studies are done on several populations in Europe and single populations from West Africa, India and Vietnam. Further samples stored in Ethanol in the fridge are already available and wait to be sequenced. All samples especially from Asia and Africa are welcome. Please contact me if you can contribute more samples and would like to help.

Unfortunately it will take some time until the results are available and published.

Cheers,

Brancsikia


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## Andrew (Nov 17, 2008)

Hearing you guys talking about ootheca absolutely needing a diapause to hatch makes me think of _Sarracenia_ and _Dionaea_ seeds. You will read that they need a cold diapause to hatch similar to _religiosa_, but they don't. You simply end up with a much lower germination rate.

I think if you took a few hundred to a few thousand _M. religiosa_ oothecae, you would end up with quite a few nymphs. This supports Hypoponera's hypothesis that the trait was simply bred out, which is what seems likely to me.


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## sidewinder (Nov 17, 2008)

Andrew said:


> I think if you took a few hundred to a few thousand _M. religiosa_ oothecae, you would end up with quite a few nymphs. This supports Hypoponera's hypothesis that the trait was simply bred out, which is what seems likely to me.


Andrew,

I could agree with that, except that the evolutionary migration path for insects is from the tropics to temperate regions, not the other way around. Taking the data that Christian shared in regards to the various _Mantis religiosa_ subspecies, I would posit that _M. r. religiosa_ evolved after the first tropical _M. religiosa_ subspecies. In other words, the diapause was an evolutionary adaption in the temperate subspecies, not the other way around. Hypoponera's hypothesis was made when we did not understand that there are many, including tropical, _M. religiosa_ subspecies.

Scott


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## Andrew (Nov 17, 2008)

Ahh, I gotcha. That's what I get for not reading through the whole thread.


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