# Honestly, People!



## GreenOasis (Mar 17, 2011)

I have noticed a lot of drama going on in the "classifieds" ads and I really don't understand.

It seems that every time Frey makes a posting, people ask her simple, straightforward questions about the mantis/ooth, she calls them "silly" and becomes seemingly rude and then Phil often jumps in and rips people "new ones".

Having been referred to in one of these threads here recently, I have decided that, rather than vent in the classified ad, which, as Phil so kindly pointed out, is not the proper place, I would make my statements here. Please understand that I do not hate Frey or Phil or anyone else on this forum...rather, I love all you guys! :wub: I just want to understand why, as a community of like-minded individuals, we are being this way to each other?  

First of all, Frey,

People here are simply asking honest questions, not intended to be hostile in the slightest. I, myself, made a simple comment that the Mega Mantis LOOKED small in the picture. Maybe I have seen pics in which they were *intentionally* positioned to look HUGE...I DON'T KNOW! Others jumped in to ask if you could place an object in with her to take a pic &amp; post it. Really, I didn't intend to start a fight there, and I believe that it was a simple request which you could have easily responded with, "I'm sorry, I don't have time for that, but she is ___ long." That would have been good enough for a busy business woman, I think! Instead, your automatic response is saying someone is "stupid" or "silly" and just generally coming off as being hostile. *We* don't undertand if you are really like this and think that way of others, or if there are subtle innuendos that are lost in translation and you don't MEAN to sound rude. Again, Frey, I LIKE you, and I don't want to see this blow up into a big argument. I am just trying to point out how this might be a self-perpetuating cycle.

Now, Phil,

Everyone knows that you and Frey are close friends &amp; you've always got her back. What I don't get is why you feel that you constantly have to be her "knight in shining armor" and jump in every time you feel like someone might be attacking her? Do you think she is not capable of defending herself against the onslaught of us "evil Americans" by herself?  Plenty of folks have said time &amp; again that they applaud Frey for being able to do what she does, communicating in a second (or perhaps more!) language &amp; doing business in some rare species, overseas no less. The few people who DO attack her ("large hands"...really? What are we...10 yr olds? :huh: ) are quickly shot down by many other members on the forum, often before you even interject with your wordplay. Or, if I were her, I would just ignore the "trolls" anyway. I suppose, being "old school", you feel like it is your duty to defend the "damsel in distress" yourself, but often, you come off as just being creepy. (Sorry!) A simple change might be just to keep it short &amp; sweet? "Frey is a woman, I have spoked with her myself" or something to that effect. But to jump in and yourself start throwing out accusations? Hmm... &lt;_&lt; I, myself, can easily see how one might mistype a latin name, having done it myself quite a few times!

Everyone Else,

I know it's probably none of my business, and in fact, this might be seen as inflammatory all over again. I don't mean it to be. Actually, I had intended this to be a formal apology to Frey (and/or Phil) for starting *something* on the classified thread that I did not mean to!

Really guys...can't we all just "get along"? :flowers: :flowers: :flowers:


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## patrickfraser (Mar 17, 2011)

I just started here, so I can't say much. I did jump in with a "silly" question, just because I thought it was a simple question that should have received a simple answer. Yes or no. There is no reason to berate someone wanting to see a picture of what they might possibly want to buy, Well that's my two cents on the matter.


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## more_rayne (Mar 17, 2011)

People need to learn to chill.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 18, 2011)

Thank you for raising this issue on an appropriate forum, Carey. I cannot speak for Frey, of course, but she is indeed a friend and yes, I have to come to the aid of a friend whom I feel is being abused or done less than well by, though I suspect that the last thing that she needs is a knight in any kind of armor. I must confess that some while back, I and another member used to come to the aid of another young female friend, of Russian parentage, Superfreak the Great, who used to get in all sorts of scrapes. She was just plain nasty (much less so now; I worry about her), and once used a phrase to a teenage countrywoman so egregiously crude and insulting that I was amazed that it was not deleted. I can only conclude that our vigilant administrators did not understand it. There, my goal was to step in before things escalated further and to redirect any flak to myself. I am so old and confused at this stage that if anyone insults me, I often miss the point and am more likely to be amused than offended.

Frey has a unique history on this forum. When she started, she was accused by a number of Polish members, who were very vocal at the time but are now gone, of being being a notorious mantis swindler named Octobre Mav. (October May). A few of us have a pretty good idea of who this person actually is, and he is certainly not a young female college student who has to hold a part time job to support herself. When she sold me an ooth. A Polish member said confidently that it would not hatch. When it hatched, he told me confidently that it was of a different species. He was wrong on both counts, but never apologized and was never asked to by the administrators. On another occasion two new members praised her product and service and another Polish member, himself a competing dealer, suggested that perhaps these members were "planted" by Frey. It was also argued that she was not a woman but a man and that a photo showing her holding a package had "large hands" like a man. None of these posts was censured or deleted. The practice of referring to her as "he/she as used by Masaman is a direct follow on of that canard, and since he attacked her, in his unique, oblique way, for not divulging the name of her trading sources, and I can understand Frey's not being very fond of the poor lad and being less than polite in her reply.

In more recent times, she offered for sale, like other members here including one of the Administrators, WC Idolomantis ooths. Now, everyone knows that buying one of these is like buying a lottery ticket and many, I imagine most, who were bold or rash enough to buy one got the expected result, but I think that Brian's poll of everyone who had bought one was odd and unkind, particularly since he had attempted, though with less skill than Frey, to import WC ooths of this species himself. It was also Brian who printed in bold caps that a phasmid that Frey advertised was ILLEGAL in the US something he has never done when other vendors have offered foreign phasmids for sale (we have a member in Malaysia who regularly offers eggs), and when she replied, he called her a "Stupid A$" It was he, also, who claimed that according to "a friend" her specimen was only about half size, again, quite wrongly. And unkindness can also be attributed to the member who made fun of her English in a post about flies, hardly a courtesy to a non-English speaker.

And of course, some of the statements are simply dumb rather than malicious, like suggesting that she should pose her mantis with a Euro (a 2Euro coin is, by odd chance, is almost exactly an inch in diameter [1.01"], but G_d knows the size of a one Euro coin, so how could that help, even if she had one, and the suggestion by a poster that Frey couldn't spell because he couldn't find the names on photobucket, while possibly true, seemed unkind rather than helpful, especially since his knowledge of the more exotic Mantodea nomenclature appears to be far from perfect.

So there you have it, dear. Should members avoid chat on Frey's "for sale" threads? Should administrators monitor more closely to ensure that their own regulations are adhered to? Should members treat her with the same courtesy that they show to others? Has past rough usage on this forum made her a little oversensitive? Should I be less ready to defend her position? Personally, I only know the answer to the last one, for sure.


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## PragmaticHominid (Mar 18, 2011)

Phil - I wonder why you think you're helping Frey, by repeating over and over again all the cruel and untrue things that have been said about her in the past? I suppose Frey can speak for herself, but if it were me I wouldn't be very happy if one of my friends felt it necessary to repeatedly bring up in public something insulting someone else had said to me. Whoever said that about her hands was vile, but I don't think it's very noble of you to tell the story to newer members either. Seems like you're more interested in repeating ugly gossip than in helping anyone.

I also wonder why you feel it necessary to misrepresent what I said in Frey's sales threads? Until and unless the mods trim the posts, my original comments are still there, so the way you're twisting things around isn't apt to make you look good to anyone who cares to go look for themselves.

1.) If you're still ignorant about this after I posted a link to a photo of a Euro next to an American coin, I'll tell you - a Euro coin is almost exactly the size of an American nickel. There's no lack of photos on the internet that can show you the comparable sizes of coins from different nations. This is not privilege information that only God is privy to. I suggest you use google. I've already acknowledged that I might have done better to ask her to use a pencil or a ruler, but it seems that you have no interest in acknowledging my clarification.

2.) On the subject of google: Of course, it is google that I used to search for photos of the species in question, not photobucket. Of course, you already knew this, because I stated it very clearly in the original post, but I suppose by saying I used photobucket you hope to make me sound stupider.

3.) And, once again, the only place where anyone suggested that Frey couldn't spell is inside your own head. I never said that, I never even thought it, and I think it's gross and dishonest that you keep claiming that I did so.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 18, 2011)

Ah, P.H.! I obviously caused you more anguish than I ever intended. So far as I know, I don't think that I accused anyone of anything stronger than being "unkind" or "foolish" but I think that you must strongly wish to be a kindly and righteous man, and I would not wittingly tarnish your self image, especially over a subject that caused at least two members, much happy laughter. The list of unkindnesses leveled at Frey were given simply to explain why I feel the need to defend her position, and I am in a good position to know that in most cases, such posts simply make her laugh. She depends in part on her mantis sales, and comments about her misspelling (and you appear to imply that she misspelled the names of every species that she mentioned) and requests for her to include a coin, foreign to both the US and Poland do nothing to promote that and are posted contrary to forum rules, as I am sure you now know.

So please believe me when I say that, whatever your opinion of me (  ), I am sure that you are an absolutely fine fellow and that I would never (ref #2) intentionally try to make you sound stupider than you are.


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## yeatzee (Mar 18, 2011)

good god, more drama? I swear this place has more going on than every other forum I am a part of on the internet combined (and im part of a lot!). Back from when I first joined however many years ago to now. Long time no post by the way  

Personally, I think the "demands" (if you want to call them that) of frey do not deserve the responses back but thats just me. Clearly some people disagree..... oh well  

Phil, whatever happened to superfreak? She went from the biggest wannabe cyber bully I have ever seen to just disappearing off the forum. Cant say I miss her (as well as a few people which appear to have left as well).


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 18, 2011)

Hey Tanner! Always good to hear from you! I remember that Superfreak zapped the heck out of you when you had just returned (again!) after an absence from the forum. She was totally unfair, of course, but what style! And English is her third language! So far as I can tell, she and I have the same mental spectrum disorder, which you either get out of in yr early twenties or not. It always leaves a mark, but she seems to have turned the corner and is doing honors in mantis studies in Sydney.

And it's the style that counts, son, for people like us. You are glad to see her gone; she, with style, wouldn't remember your name.


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## PragmaticHominid (Mar 18, 2011)

Yes, that's very good, Phil. By all means continue to resort to insults and snark over this matter, which you have chosen for no logical reason to blow entirely out of proportion. This will certainly make you look like a mature person.

If you were actually concerned about Frey's sales, by the way, you wouldn't continue to mention these cases in which she was accused (however unjustly) of dishonest dealings. I don't know where you come from, but the way I was raised (with the help of my Polish grandmother, by the way) friends don't repeat malicious lies about their friends to strangers. These bizarre little fits of tempter that you've been having can't be helpful to anyone.

By the way, it's not especially relevant to anything, but I'm a woman.

And I'm finished discussing this with you. Have a lovely life.


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## DannyN (Mar 18, 2011)

I dont post often but I personally think that posting on classified threads should be disabled, except by the poster. It is this way on a few other forums that Im on and it seems to make things a lot peaceful, any business is done over PM.


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## yeatzee (Mar 18, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> Hey Tanner! Always good to hear from you! I remember that Superfreak zapped the heck out of you when you had just returned (again!) after an absence from the forum. She was totally unfair, of course, but what style! And English is her third language! So far as I can tell, she and I have the same mental spectrum disorder, which you either get out of in yr early twenties or not. It always leaves a mark, but she seems to have turned the corner and is doing honors in mantis studies in Sydney.
> 
> And it's the style that counts, son, for people like us. You are glad to see her gone; she, with style, wouldn't remember your name.


If you consider "zapped" with style trying to be a bully to a what, 13 year old kid (now 17 mind you) who was what 5 years younger than her , throwing out as many desperate personal attacks as possible than yes I was "zapped."  

You've always had a funny way insulting people phil.....  

As you can probably guess with your infinite wisdom, I couldn't care less  that's just the kind of person I am, and in such an eloquent fashion you stated she is not.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 18, 2011)

KSTBCR said:


> I dont post often but I personally think that posting on classified threads should be disabled, except by the poster. It is this way on a few other forums that Im on and it seems to make things a lot peaceful, any business is done over PM.


This


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## GreenOasis (Mar 18, 2011)

PragmaticHominid said:


> By the way, it's not especially relevant to anything, but I'm a woman.


*Snort* As my teenage daughter would say..."Epic Face Palm!"


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## sporeworld (Mar 18, 2011)

As a person who has had several posts on the topic deleted, I'm glad this thread is here, and that we can talk openly. (um, we CAN, right...?) Kudos, Green Oasis for having the courage to post it.

Personally, I'm VERY interested in knowing what kind of success people have had with WC Oooths - from any breeder. And I confess, I did NOT know "WC" meant "Wild Caught" when I made my first purchase. Like many, I'm just enjoying the hobby, and I'm limited to the amount of time I allow myself to do research. I trust what I read HERE more than what I read on the general web, anyway.

But that's the problem. If the rules prohibit such a direct question as "Has anyone had a successful hatch", forcing the discussion to other thread, how are inexperienced forum members expeceted to acces that valuable information...? I spent 12 hours research JUST Idolomantis breeding... We don't REALLY expect members to read through every thread with "frey" in it...? It's 3 pages of content already!

I suppose everyone who has had a purchase with the buyer COULD (or should?) simply post to the Breeder Feedback page "1 Idolo ooth, 50 nymphs", or "1 Idolo ooth, no hatch in 9 months" and we'd at least have something, right? Maybe?

I think dissapointed people (me) don't post this type of feedback, because, as it's been made clear to me NOW, it's nearly irrational to think a WC ooth will hatch.

So, as I understand the rules, if I posted "4 ooths, zero hatch. But our forum has clearly agreed that I've got less than a 5% chance of a WC ooth hatching", my post would be deleted because I've introduced a discussion, or whatever. Very frustrating.

Can we, in a thread like this, ask respected members (obviously open to debate) what THEIR hatch rate has been...? Is that within the rules...? Just facts...?


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## Rick (Mar 18, 2011)

Bottom line is the classifieds are not for discussion. It is in the rules. I have not made much attempt at enforcing it lately because it seems I am the only one who was trying there for awhile. Don't be surprised if a post you made in there gets deleted.


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## sporeworld (Mar 18, 2011)

I understnd the Breeder Feedback part, but even in the Classified? People are blocked from asking (arguably) legitimate questions or from making comments about the species or ask for pics? Can they post a _link_ to their discussion thread?

Or do you just mean they can't post personal attacks (and that sort of thing) in the Classifieds?

I'm sure it isn't fun being the moderator, or deleteing people's posts (or getting their hate mail). You have my sympathies. However, I feel like the buyer is being disarmed here, and potential scammers are getting getting an easy (or easier) ride. As it is, it's a predator's market, and I'm not sure who the rules are really protecting.

Is there any kind of satisfaction rating we can add to a breeder? Or, would it be fair to add to my iterests: "Beloved Breeders: Yen, Hibiscussmile, KitKat". There's no NEGATIVE to that, right.

I based my trust on the Breeder Feedback page, only to suspect much later that this was quite an edited version of reality.

Honestly, all this is coming from a CONSTRUCTIVE point of view. I really love the hobby, and most of this forum. And I want to be like Phil and be someone's Knight in shining armor. I just want to be a little clearer on who _really is_ the damsel in distress.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 18, 2011)

oH! it's me! it's me! :lol:


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## geckoboy3 (Mar 18, 2011)

hibiscusmile said:


> oH! it's me! it's me! :lol:


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## yen_saw (Mar 18, 2011)

If this is about the size of mega mantis (Plistospilota guineensis). It is about 12 cm based on the photos I have seen. Please do not speculate the size of this species exceeding 6 inches. 12 cm is still a very *large *specimen, I hope this 'help' Frey clarify things up.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 18, 2011)

hibiscusmile said:


> oH! it's me! it's me! :lol:


How cool, Rebecca! We can all ride up to Ohio and joust for your favor, and you can tie your favor (a sleeve of white samite with gold thread would work well) to the lance of your favorite, and afterwards we can all sit down to a nice dinner of corned beef and cabbage!


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 18, 2011)

yea! U shall be knighted my first knight, btw, camolot is just down the street!


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## GreenOasis (Mar 18, 2011)

Sporeworld said:


> As a person who has had several posts on the topic deleted, I'm glad this thread is here, and that we can talk openly. (um, we CAN, right...?) Kudos, Green Oasis for having the courage to post it.
> 
> Personally, I'm VERY interested in knowing what kind of success people have had with WC Oooths - from any breeder. And I confess, I did NOT know "WC" meant "Wild Caught" when I made my first purchase. Like many, I'm just enjoying the hobby, and I'm limited to the amount of time I allow myself to do research. I trust what I read HERE more than what I read on the general web, anyway.
> 
> ...


I don't know how Brian stated his poll...knowing him, perhaps a bit more brashly than I would have.  But, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask these sorts of questions! People who are new deserve to know a bit more about what they're getting into when they decide to purchase a wild ooth. The only problem I see to this is that Frey (or any other seller of wild ooths) is probably going to feel like posting these results is some sort of personal attack, rather than the helpful information they are intended to be. If it were me, I would not sell wild-caught ooths, for the simple reason that I probably would not like the criticism either. (And also the fact that I could not guarantee results for the customer!) But, if I did sell them, I would simply accept that there are going to be dissatisfied folks out there who didn't realize the slim chances for their ooth purchase.

Thanks for the kudos, Sporeworld. It's not really courage I have, but I have always been an open sort of person...ask me anything and I will tell you! I also see no point in lying, so...I don't bother with lying (or liars) either, for that matter! I have just never understood why more folks AREN'T a bit more open. Wouldn't we be able to get along better if we actually KNEW what others were thinking/feeling about us or what we do? And just because you are criticized, does that mean that the person doesn't really like YOU, or just something you're doing that you could easily change? Or, something totally beyond your control that you just have to accept? I, myself, am beyond the childish high school days of caring what anyone else thinks of me personally, and I am beyond basing my opinions of others on what people tell me I should think, etc. But, just because I don't care what anyone else thinks of me, doesn't mean I am going to be mean or hurtful to them in return for their behavior! Rather, I like trying to be an open and helpful member of the community. Sometimes I do play "devil's advocate", but it's more to help people think, really THINK about the things they are doing/saying and maybe, just maybe, they will realize on their own what they could/should do to make things better!


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## sporeworld (Mar 18, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> How cool, Rebecca! We can all ride up to Ohio and joust for your favor, and you can tie your favor (a sleeve of white samite with gold thread would work well) to the lance of your favorite, and afterwards we can all sit down to a nice dinner of corned beef and cabbage!


Ni-ice! 

You can have the tie. I hate "jousting" anyway.

But I DO likes the corned beef and cabbage!


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## angelofdeathzz (Mar 18, 2011)

GreenOasis said:


> I have just never understood why more folks AREN'T a bit more open. Wouldn't we be able to get along better if we actually KNEW what others were thinking/feeling about us or what we do?


+1

If you can't say it like it is(with no bad language), whats the point of saying it at all???


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## ismart (Mar 18, 2011)

Whats with all this drama?  There should not be any discussion in the the classified section of the forum. If you have a question to ask the breeder/seller, you should either PM them, or email them, if possible? If you have had a transaction with the seller? Then post your feedback in the breeder/feedback section of the forum. Good, or bad thats what it's there for.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 18, 2011)

*"But, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask these sorts of questions! People who are new deserve to know a bit more about what they're getting into when they decide to purchase a wild ooth. The only problem I see to this is that Frey (or any other seller of wild ooths) is probably going to feel like posting these results is some sort of personal attack, rather than the helpful information they are intended to be"*

Yes, it is remotely possible that she might, given that the person asking for this helpful information had told her and every one else on the forum that something she offered for sale was ILLEGAL, had called her a "stupid a$$" and told her, wrongly and publicly, that another specimen that she was selling should have been twice the size that she quoted. If someone that you know, Carey, stands at the edge of a cliff and asks you to come and enjoy the view, I see no reason why you should not. But if that person has already tried to push you over several times, you might do well to think twice before complying.

And that's the last of me for this amazing thread!


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## GreenOasis (Mar 19, 2011)

That is ONE person, Phil, who does not sum up the opinion or actions of us all, nor do the rest of us deserve to be treated with contempt because of the actions/hurtful words of ONE person. I treat people as individuals and would not think of telling a totally different person that they have "silly questions" because of what one person had done to me in the past.

As stated, I am unfamiliar with the poll Brian posted, or its wording...it is highly possible, knowing his sometimes straighforward Jersey-style way of speaking, that it seemed abrasive (or perhaps was intentional, I don't know Brian all that well), but my reference was related to what Sporeworld said about why it seems to be so negative to ask simple questions pertaining to wild-caught ooth viability. I said that it was not unreasonable to ask about this or to post results when you are dealing with them. Being the type of person that I am and my ability to see both sides of the issue, however, I can understand how a person in the business of selling said ooths might not want this type of negative attention on them, because it hurts their sales (particularly of the wild-caught ooths.) What THAT one statement has to do with Brian's previously "abusive" treatment of Frey, I haven't the slightest clue. But then again, perhaps I have some years of growing to do before I am enlightened that way.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 19, 2011)

GreenOasis said:


> That is ONE person, Phil, who does not sum up the opinion or actions of us all, nor do the rest of us deserve to be treated with contempt because of the actions/hurtful words of ONE person. I treat people as individuals and would not think of telling a totally different person that they have "silly questions" because of what one person had done to me in the past.
> 
> As stated, I am unfamiliar with the poll Brian posted, or its wording...it is highly possible, knowing his sometimes straighforward Jersey-style way of speaking, that it seemed abrasive (or perhaps was intentional, I don't know Brian all that well), but my reference was related to what Sporeworld said about why it seems to be so negative to ask simple questions pertaining to wild-caught ooth viability. I said that it was not unreasonable to ask about this or to post results when you are dealing with them. Being the type of person that I am and my ability to see both sides of the issue, however, I can understand how a person in the business of selling said ooths might not want this type of negative attention on them, because it hurts their sales (particularly of the wild-caught ooths.) What THAT one statement has to do with Brian's previously "abusive" treatment of Frey, I haven't the slightest clue. *But then again, perhaps I have some years of growing to do before I am enlightened that way. *


 :clap:


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## Frey (Mar 20, 2011)

Maybe hard to believe you, but before we all understood what was written in this post has passed nearly an hour.

My English is at a basic level, I try to understand and be able to provide as much information as possible but the truth is that I was learning English two years ago for high school or all of a sudden 3 years...

Pragmatic Hominid complains to me that after all I can say the same in his name, certainly yes. But does not being an American I can adequately express the clear? I think not, therefore, at a time when someone is able to help me, I cant say no, I feel really stupid for this reason but I'm grateful for the help.

From what I understand, his replies to questions, treated someone in a bad way. sorry for this but I really do not mean to attack someone, maybe it's about the mentality - I understand some things differently than you Americans.

Anyway, I'm sorry, I'll try to answer the questions carefully.

The second problem which is discussed here is the problem of WC ooths.

If someone asked where I cocoons, I said they were wild caught.

In order to explain everything - I am for these cocoons also I paid, maybe some people like Brian do not realize that the import costs, it is also true that such a rule stings to 60-70% of the cocoons.

Some inexperienced farmers could think about that because they are cocoons of africa 2 weeks went to me and the next two weeks to the U.S. - it could also affect the number of hatched

As soon as I can, I'll have a new cocoons from Africa, I will try to send all the "victims", yet I can not solve in any other way. track number of last packet which you gave Sporeworld I expected - if you see what happened to it - the package was sent back by customs officers.

The last thing you Brian already beginning to be really nice not respect me, I just do not know why. So as I said - he stressed that the import Jungle nymphs is illegal - two or three days later he asked me if I sell them to him - this is normal?

I also think that Brian instead cling to me and try to sink me, he could reflect on what he is doing.

Brian is up to you, you know what I mean? Do you think you're so fine and you're so sincere person?

Finally, I wanted to add that I added pictures Plistospiloty, you can see its size. As soon as possible to the species will settle with you. Sorry for the inconvenience, and if someone does not understand what I wrote


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## Termite48 (Apr 12, 2011)

I feel like I am the "Johnny Come Lately" in this discussion,although I have been following the issues for a few weeks. I have been interested in the acquisition of various species which are more plentiful, it seems, in Europe, than here. I also see that the UKMantisforums of which I am a member disallows the listing of any ooth or mantis that is "W/C". There are some good reasons given there,and if you are interested you should tune in by going on to that site. I just wish we would treat all as we wish to be treated. If we are doing business or hobby activity, or both, we need not to burn our bridges. The one you insult one day, even inadvertantly, can be the one you need help from the next. This is not a perfect motive, but an economical one that may appeal more to some than some ethical, religious, or humanitarian reason or motive. Happy dealings members. Let's try to leave our personal feelings and unecessary comments out of the classifieds as if you must pay for each wrod there. Good day!


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