# Is this correct?



## Katnapper (Dec 5, 2008)

I was reading through some old threads, and came across this:



mantida said:


> Be careful not to mate her too much, as she can reject sperm from him while he is mating AND the previous ones introduced into her system. (aka she will be totally infertile again)


[http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=8988&amp;st=0]

I didn't see any comments agreeing or disagreeing with it. Is this true? Can this really happen? Thank you.


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## hibiscusmile (Dec 5, 2008)

Never came across it myself


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## The_Asa (Dec 5, 2008)

I don't imagine too many have problems with overmating :lol:


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## superfreak (Dec 6, 2008)

No. It is incorrect.

Mate her. The more times you mate her the more chance you will have of her producing a viable ootheca.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 6, 2008)

superfreak said:


> No. It is incorrect.Mate her. The more times you mate her the more chance you will have of her producing a viable ootheca.


Which is pretty much what Orin says in _Praying Mantids: Keeping Aliens_


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## Katnapper (Dec 6, 2008)

Thank you! I didn't think it sounded plausible, but didn't see any replies to the contrary in the thread. Just caught my attention and wondered if I missed something along the way. Thanks again!


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## Peter Clausen (Dec 6, 2008)

Since your question has been answered, I feel the need to remark on your avatar. Neatest one I've seen! Of course, I'm partial to a ghost mantis.


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## Kruszakus (Dec 6, 2008)

Damn right - you really must like them Phyllocrania.


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## Rick (Dec 6, 2008)

Not true but if she has been mated there is not much use in mating her again. Maybe once more after she lays several ooths.


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## Katnapper (Dec 6, 2008)

Thank you, Peter and Kruszakus for the compliments on my Avatar... I appreciate it!  I made it myself from a pic I took of my lonely L4 male Ghost. I love how he looks, and I think he's going to be a supermodel before I get done with him, lol. You know, I think I just came up with a name for him.... "Superman!"


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## chun (Dec 6, 2008)

the original statement that mating a female too many time will 'empty' her out and render her infertile is just one of those ridiculous 'chinese whisper' style pseudoscientific piece of information. Sperm displacement does occur but not to an extent that it will completely make her infertile, which would be ridiculous as females which mate in great mass such as some species of polyandrous (mating with multiple male) ant species and honey bees which can mate up to 100 different males would be extinct by now if such a phenomenon held true. The subject of which male's sperm to use when a female is mated with more than one different male is alot more interesting.


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## d0rk2dafullest (Dec 6, 2008)

i dont think it can be infertile, you seen cheaper by the dozen????????


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## kamakiri (Dec 8, 2008)

chun said:


> The subject of which male's sperm to use when a female is mated with more than one different male is alot more interesting.


Agreed. I'm more interested in knowing how much may be displaced and if ooths can have multiple fathers.


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## Katnapper (Dec 8, 2008)

kamakiri said:


> Agreed. I'm more interested in knowing how much may be displaced and if ooths can have multiple fathers.


Me too. Is there any information on studies like this? Or has no one done this kind of research on mantids, as they are not an insect of "concern" (pest that needs attention)?


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 8, 2008)

kamakiri said:


> Agreed. I'm more interested in knowing how much may be displaced and if ooths can have multiple fathers.


Why do you want to know about multiple fathers/ooth? Is this a legal issue? Visitation rights?


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## chun (Dec 8, 2008)

Katnapper said:


> Me too. Is there any information on studies like this? Or has no one done this kind of research on mantids, as they are not an insect of "concern" (pest that needs attention)?


I'm not too hot on my physiology and anatomy, so i don't know the mechanism in which the female uses to utilize the stored spermatophore (packet of sperms) within her spermatheca (where the female stores the sperms). I dont see how two males can not be the father of an ootheca, as an ootheca encases many eggs, which all needs to be fertilised by a sperm. Although which male's sperms the female uses when multiply mated is rather interesting. If i remember rightly, Geoff Parker suggested that sperms from different males are freely and randomly mixed together, like a raffle, the more tickets you buy (the more sperm you deposit) the higher the likelihood of you winning (fertilising an egg with your own sperm). I'm not sure which organism her used to based this theory on, although other studies have been done on artificially inseminating chickens with more than one male's sperms and using dna-assays to test for paternity. It was suggested that sperms from multiply males are not mixed together, which sperm gets used depends on when the hen was ovulating (if i remember rightly) usually meaning that the older sperms which is usually utilized first. Imagine a giant tub, with a tap on the bottom; if you pour solution A (male A's sperms) and then followed by solution B (male B's sperms) and that these two solutions (sperms) do not mix with solution B forming a layer above solution A. When the tap is opened (time of ovulation/utilization of sperm to fertilise an egg), solution A will always flow first. Solution B would only flow out of the tap once solution A has disappears (been used). So a male's success rate in fertilising an egg after mating depends on the number of males that has mated with the female before you. Others also suggests that sperm displacement can also take place, so for example, the tub is only 1L. for example the tub is filled with 500ml solution, now the assumption is that sperms do mix, you can displace alot of the original 500ml solution by pouring i.e. 800ml of another solution, and thus making the tub overflow. If sperms do mix, then the male which deposits the most sperm will have a higher chance of his sperms remaining within the spermatheca (tub) if he 'overflows' it with his sperms (although this does not mean physical excretion of sperms out of the female, sperms will degrade within the female over time).

I hope this makes sense, it's not the easiest concept to grasp.


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## kamakiri (Dec 8, 2008)

PhilinYuma said:


> Why do you want to know about multiple fathers/ooth? Is this a legal issue? Visitation rights?


Genetic diversity concerns only!  Would be nice to have a single ooth with half siblings.

Understanding the storage and release mechanism would probably be one of the first thing to learn. I've always thought that the females store the spermatophore whole and use what they need...like a tube of toothpaste. I suppose it could be transferred, but I've never seen or heard of a sac being discharged after transfer...so I guessed it stayed with the female. Could one of our in-house experts clarify?


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## chun (Dec 8, 2008)

kamakiri said:


> Genetic diversity concerns only!  Would be nice to have a single ooth with half siblings.Understanding the storage and release mechanism would probably be one of the first thing to learn. I've always thought that the females store the spermatophore whole and use what they need...like a tube of toothpaste. I suppose it could be transferred, but I've never seen or heard of a sac being discharged after transfer...so I guessed it stayed with the female. Could one of our in-house experts clarify?


it can be like a tube of toothpaste like you've described, i doubt there are any empirical work done on mantids specifically as i think Parker's theory is pretty widely accepted as his original empirical work was done with insects (i think it was dungfly) and i'd imagine it'll be pretty hard to get the money necessary for such a relatively useless study. Mantids are not one of the laboratory or model animals for behavioural ecology experiments that comes to my mind.


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## Hypoponera (Dec 9, 2008)

If I remember my aquatic ento class from years ago, dragon fly males are able to remove some or all of the sperm deposited by an earlier mating. But I don't recall mention of multiple matings leading to female sterility.


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## Katnapper (Dec 9, 2008)

d0rk2dafullest said:


> i dont think it can be infertile, you seen cheaper by the dozen????????


Never saw it... but I have heard of the movie title!


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## dafke14 (Dec 15, 2008)

I Know as a fact this is not true because i have got my Sphodromantis Lineola's mate 5 times and i actualy saw every time they did it lol and every morning when they were done i've put the male back in his enclosure untill that morning there was only wings left of the male.

And untill now my girl layed 8 verry fertile Ooths with max. nimphs.


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