# Carolina vs Carolina



## yen_saw (Sep 28, 2009)

Attached is a pic of two adult male mantis collected from two different location (see attached). Both were called Carolina mantis by people (not insect expert) where the mantis were collected. i have noticed the significant size difference (I do not pick up the extreme but they are pretty much about the same size). On average, the adult male Carolina mantis collected in Texas warm Southeastern area appear to be much larger than the adult male Carolina mantis from Missouri(MO). I wonder if shorter period of warm weather (thus shorter period of food availability) plays an important role in the mantis size for Carolina mantis. I mean the mantis in cooler area might want to grow into adult and breed sooner than the mantis in the south which enjoy longer period of warmer weather and additional food; Therefore smaller size, is this assumption sensible? i haven't had the time really looking at the details on the mantis yet like spreading the wing or checking the spike on tibia and femur, I will do that later. Just wonder if they could be different species all together? or could it be sub-species?


----------



## Rick (Sep 28, 2009)

Not sure Yen. It is an interesting observation. We have some pretty big ones here too. One female I caught in particular seems much larger than the rest. Not sure about the males though.


----------



## kamakiri (Sep 28, 2009)

Very interesting observations. I think one way to prove that there is a genetic bias for size would be to overfeed a group of MO mantises and underfeed a group of TX mantises.

I'd also be curious if the two could be crossed successfully.


----------



## yen_saw (Sep 28, 2009)

Rick said:


> Not sure Yen. It is an interesting observation. We have some pretty big ones here too. One female I caught in particular seems much larger than the rest. Not sure about the males though.


 I am still looking for the 'Carolina' female here in Texas as all i caught during the last weekend were all males. i will try to look for some adult female in the field next to the store were lot of 'Carolina' males were found. Good chance the female is larger than the one found in MO.


kamakiri said:


> Very interesting observations. I think one way to prove that there is a genetic bias for size would be to overfeed a group of MO mantises and underfeed a group of TX mantises. I'd also be curious if the two could be crossed successfully.


 Yeah my next project haha! right now i am interested in dead specimen of Stagmomantis spp. around the country.


----------



## Ntsees (Sep 28, 2009)

yen_saw said:


> Attached is a pic of two adult male mantis collected from two different location (see attached). Both were called Carolina mantis by people (not insect expert) where the mantis were collected. i have noticed the significant size difference (I do not pick up the extreme but they are pretty much about the same size). On average, the adult male Carolina mantis collected in Texas warm Southeastern area appear to be much larger than the adult male Carolina mantis from Missouri(MO). I wonder if shorter period of warm weather (thus shorter period of food availability) plays an important role in the mantis size for Carolina mantis. I mean the mantis in cooler area might want to grow into adult and breed sooner than the mantis in the south which enjoy longer period of warmer weather and additional food; Therefore smaller size, is this assumption sensible? i haven't had the time really looking at the details on the mantis yet like spreading the wing or checking the spike on tibia and femur, I will do that later. Just wonder if they could be different species all together? or could it be sub-species?


Most likely they are just the same species but you could check the details for confirmation. All I know is that members of the same species will tend to vary depending on where they are located (like how you explained about the ~Northern vs. ~Southern mantids). Even then, mantids in any local area will still tend to differ in size. The idea of the experiment mention in the above post does seem interesting. Are you going to use statistics (ANOVA) in the experiment (~differences in sizes between 2 regionally separated mantids)?


----------



## yen_saw (Sep 28, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> Most likely they are just the same species but you could check the details for confirmation. All I know is that members of the same species will tend to vary depending on where they are located (like how you explained about the ~Northern vs. ~Southern mantids). Even then, mantids in any local area will still tend to differ in size. The idea of the experiment mention in the above post does seem interesting. Are you going to use statistics (ANOVA) in the experiment (~differences in sizes between 2 regionally separated mantids)?


Yes pretty sure the one from MO is Stagmomantis carolina. All the adult male speciments in TX appear to be half and inch larger than one from MO, consistantly. The weather may be the factor here. I will spread the dead specimen, they are all still in the fridge as adult males starting to drop like flies. I still need to find adult female 'Carolina' here in Texas to have a chance on the experiment. But for now i am more interested in finding the keys to differentiate different species of Stagmomantis in this country.


----------



## yen_saw (Dec 22, 2009)

I sent couple of adult males (Texas and Missouri) to a mantis expert (Julio Rivera) recently. He believed the one from Texas is probably of different species but will perform a genital dissection next month to confirm. Just an update here.

While researching key for mantis living in Texas, I came across a ~80 pages journal written by a US entomologist Morgan Hebard and published by the American Entomological Society back in 1942/43. The following three pages are the the descriptions and keys of different species of mantis found in Texas. Besides the detail description among Stagmomantis spp. that exist in TX, it was interesting to know Stagmomantis carlifornica exists in Western Texas!!! But i was surprise that grass mantis (Thesprotia graminis) was not included in the list


----------



## Ntsees (Dec 22, 2009)

Wow, nice key. It looks like now we can refer to this when we have specimens to compare/examine.


----------



## Katnapper (Dec 22, 2009)

Best of luck finding female S. carolina in your area! You'll have to let us know when and if you reach any conclusions from your studies and comparisons of them.


----------



## planetq (Dec 22, 2009)

Hey Yen- This is great stuff!

It is interesting to note the possible affect of temperature on growth.

I did notice one thing about this affect on _M.religiosa_s spotted in two different locations.

The_ M.religiosas_ in Southern California seem to be much larger and bulkier than the ones I have seen in Asia.

At first glance I wouldn't even think they are the same species.

There was also an overall difference in shape too.(Very subtle but still there)

Has anyone else noticed this? Just curious..


----------



## yen_saw (Dec 22, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> Wow, nice key. It looks like now we can refer to this when we have specimens to compare/examine.


 yeah especially for the three Stagmomantis species listed there.


Katnapper said:


> Best of luck finding female S. carolina in your area! You'll have to let us know when and if you reach any conclusions from your studies and comparisons of them.


 Thanks Becky i did find 3 adult females after the original post (this thread started about almost 3 months ago) but now i am not sure if they are really Carolina. Will look into this a little closer, been checking out more on S. floridensis instead recently.


calarts_security said:


> Hey Yen- This is great stuff!It is interesting to note the possible affect of temperature on growth.
> 
> I did notice one thing about this affect on _M.religiosa_s spotted in two different locations.
> 
> ...


 yup you got that right


----------



## Rick (Dec 22, 2009)

Hey Yen. Any luck on S. Floridensis ooths hatching? Still waiting on mine.


----------



## yen_saw (Dec 29, 2009)

Rick said:


> Hey Yen. Any luck on S. Floridensis ooths hatching? Still waiting on mine.


 Not yet Rick, but i believe you have some good news to share


----------



## yen_saw (Feb 18, 2010)

Sorry to bring this old thread back. Both specimen collected from Missouri and Texas are indeed Stagmomantis carolina. A surprise to Julio himself although he first suspected they are different. Following is his email...

_Hi Yen:_

_How are you? I am very sorry for my late response..I was out in the field. I checked the genitalia of your specimens long time ago but I totally forgot to send you an email with my findings before heading to the Andes!!_

_Anyways, the two specimens of Stagmomantis you sent are both S. carolina. I am very surprised because the variability of their external morphology...despite this I couldn't detect any significant difference in the male genitalia. I compared the genitalia of these two specimens with a couple of more typical (brown-morph) S. carolina I have in my collection from Georgia and Florida and found no differences either. S. carolina is well known for being extremely variable and I wouldn't be surprised if we are actually dealing with a cryptic species situation here. Unfortunately nobody has ever looked into the nature of the morphological variation and if there is any geographic pattern in the distribution of certain morphological traits that might be an indication of geographic races, cryptic species or incipient speciation. The situation with your Rhombodera is the same: one species._

_I am glad you managed to get the original description of S. floridensis. I would be happy to get male specimens and perhaps publish a brief note describing the male genitalia which is still unknown. Please let me know if you have a few specimens so that I can take a look to the males. If you have any additional material or questions please do not hesitate in contacting me._

_Take care!_

_-- _

_M.Sc. Julio Rivera_

_Associated Researcher_

_Museo de Entomología Klaus Raven Buller_

_Universidad Nacional Agraria La Molina_

_Apartado Postal 456_

_Lima 100_

_Peru_


----------



## Rick (Feb 18, 2010)

That's great Yen. I guess they really can vary in many aspects.


----------



## hibiscusmile (Feb 18, 2010)

Hummm, who would of known


----------



## ismart (Feb 22, 2010)

Aw bummer!  It would have been cool if it were a differnt species of _Stagmomantis_. Yen could have named it _Stagmomantis yensawica_! :lol:


----------



## Katnapper (Feb 22, 2010)

Thanks for sharing the news and updated information about the _Stagmomantis carolina_ species. Interesting and valuable to know.  

When he spoke of the same situation with your _Rhombodera sp_., was he referring to the ongoing and widely distributed species that you bred in 2007... versus what? The ones you collected on your trip? Or other previously existing ones that have the differences in the dark spot on the underside of the pronotum?


----------



## Christian (Feb 22, 2010)

I missed this thread, but in hindsight, it was no surprise for me that both were the same species. Apart from size difference and maybe color there was no morphological difference observable in the pic, and the genitalia preparation done by Rivera confirmed this. Large size differences between populations is not unusual among temperate zone species. Northern _M. religiosa_ in Europe barely reach 6 cm, while specimens of the same species or even subspecies in Spain and Northern Africa may attain 8 cm. I have seen tropical African specimens (same species, other subspecies) of even larger size along some of the same region which were just average. More favorable climate and food supply is responsable for this. _Mantis religiosa_ may skip a molt, I don't know if this is also the case in_ St. carolina_.


----------



## yen_saw (Feb 24, 2010)

Katnapper said:


> .....When he spoke of the same situation with your _Rhombodera sp_., was he referring to the ongoing and widely distributed species that you bred in 2007... versus what? The ones you collected on your trip? Or other previously existing ones that have the differences in the dark spot on the underside of the pronotum?


Yes, he was referring to the one currently widespread among hobbyists and the one collected from Tapah, Malaysia.


----------



## Katnapper (Feb 24, 2010)

yen_saw said:


> Yes, he was referring to the one currently widespread among hobbyists and the one collected from Tapah, Malaysia.


Hmmm.... interesting! You'll have to let us know of any future updates or confirmations... not to mention exact species identification







.


----------



## Christian (Feb 24, 2010)

Well, the Malaysian specimens are certainly _Rh. basalis_. I have dissected various genitalia of several specimens from Malaysia, Thailand, Myanmar and Borneo, so there is no uncertainty about the identity of those ones. The only one which must be compared is the Indonesian stock. Please send me males of that one.


----------



## davestreasurechest (Feb 24, 2010)

interesting, isnt the florida mantis same but larger? maybe a S. texacus (texas mantis)


----------



## yen_saw (Feb 25, 2010)

buginthebox said:


> interesting, isnt the florida mantis same but larger? maybe a S. texacus (texas mantis)


Florida has both Carolina mantis (Stagmomantis carolina) and Larger Florida mantis (Stagmomantis floridensis). Both are different species.


----------

