# Gut loading absolutely mandatory?



## Quake (Jun 21, 2010)

Mt first few mantids were fed on crix fed on catfood and wild caught flies and moths.

As of now I have 2 budwings and had a giant asian I fed crix that are fed turtle pellets, greens, and carrots.

The budwings are beautifully colorful, although growing slower than I expected they are nice and healthy.

Both females so I dont plan on breeding, but later I would like to try with another breed... so my question is do I HAVE to use

commercial gut loads for good ooths or can I use green and vitamin foods like I have?


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 21, 2010)

Gut loading mantids' insect prey will have absolutely no effect on the fertility of their eggs. Mantids have been producing fertile ooths for millions of years* without the benefit of gut loaded prey. Why should they need it now?

*Except for young-earth creationist mantids, and even they have been doing it for thousands of years.


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## Colorcham427 (Jun 22, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> Gut loading mantids' insect prey will have absolutely no effect on the fertility of their eggs. Mantids have been producing fertile ooths for millions of years* without the benefit of gut loaded prey. Why should they need it now?
> 
> *Except for young-earth creationist mantids, and even they have been doing it for thousands of years.


How is their prey in the wild NOT gutloaded? It is gutloaded, I do not understand your statement?


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## AmandaLynn (Jun 22, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> Gut loading mantids' insect prey will have absolutely no effect on the fertility of their eggs. Mantids have been producing fertile ooths for millions of years* without the benefit of gut loaded prey. Why should they need it now?
> 
> *Except for young-earth creationist mantids, and even they have been doing it for thousands of years.


I agree, as long as the prey items are healthy and edible, your matis will eat it. They will also eat around the parts they don't like, such as the gut if it is unappetizing to them.


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 22, 2010)

Brian Aschenbach said:


> How is their prey in the wild NOT gutloaded? It is gutloaded, I do not understand your statement?


"Gut loading" is a term often used but not always well understood. Many reptiles and amphibians show evidencece of vitamin and mineral deficiencies when fed captive prey. To overcome this deficiency, the prey are "gut loaded" with the necessary vitamins, minerals, even color enhancers. Such supplements are not needed by captive mantids, though the addition of pollen either on or in the food insect provides an excellent form of additional protein. Simply feeding any creature is not the same as "gut loading" it. It works best when the predator swallows the prey in one gulp.

I know that any hobby has it's buzz words -- I have been reading a figure painting book this evening, which keeps on talking about "reinforcing the zenithian effect of the figure" -- and many are not well described or understood. I hope that this helps.


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## Rick (Jun 22, 2010)

You don't have to use any COMMERCIAL food. Nobody is forcing you to waste your money on that junk cricket food they sell. You can do better with just stuff most people normally keep around the house. You should feed your feeders a good diet as well though.


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## hibiscusmile (Jun 22, 2010)

In todays world, we feed our insect much better than they can get outside most times I would think. Outside they can only get what is allowed in the cities to grow, and a lot of added chemials in the grasses, so crickets probably have a hard time getting a good diet. But I just said that so I could have something to say, may not be best answer :tt2:


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## Christian (Jun 23, 2010)

I hate that term ("gut-loading"). I don't know why, but I hate it. That it becomes more and more popular over here doesn't help either...

Anyway: I think gut-l... err, overfeeding the crickets may have adverse effects. Given that the crickets as such are not a bad food source (which they are in some regions), a gut full of stuff unknown to mantids as natural food can cause digestion problems, even though captive mantids usually avoid the guts of orthopterans fed to them, particularly when those guts are full. So the effect of gut-l... overfeeding the cricket prior to feeding is that you wasted food/energy/money on stuff that is discarded by the mantid anyway. The best way is to keep the diet of the prey healthy and balanced, then you don't have to worry about nutritional issues. This applies to all kinds of feeder insects. Wild mantids mostly don't discard the guts of caught wild orthopterans, which is a good example that food-limitation is a natural condition in most animals. The luxury conditions provided in captivity may be seen with precaution. I think more captive mantids were overfed to death than starved to death. Think about it!


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## Rick (Jun 23, 2010)

Christian said:


> I hate that term ("gut-loading"). I don't know why, but I hate it. That it becomes more and more popular over here doesn't help either...
> 
> Anyway: I think gut-l... err, overfeeding the crickets may have adverse effects. Given that the crickets as such are not a bad food source (which they are in some regions), a gut full of stuff unknown to mantids as natural food can cause digestion problems, even though captive mantids usually avoid the guts of orthopterans fed to them, particularly when those guts are full. So the effect of gut-l... overfeeding the cricket prior to feeding is that you wasted food/energy/money on stuff that is discarded by the mantid anyway. The best way is to keep the diet of the prey healthy and balanced, then you don't have to worry about nutritional issues. This applies to all kinds of feeder insects. Wild mantids mostly don't discard the guts of caught wild orthopterans, which is a good example that food-limitation is a natural condition in most animals. The luxury conditions provided in captivity may be seen with precaution. I think more captive mantids were overfed to death than starved to death. Think about it!


I've seen plenty of wild mantids eat around and discard the gut in the wild. I think you are right about cramming a feeder insect full of food right before feeding. This is not what I am talking about when I talk about feeding a proper diet to feeder insects. I simply feed them normal amounts on a schedule. I never make a point of feeding them full right before they are used.


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 24, 2010)

Well, I know why I hate the expression. It always conjures up a picture of a middle aged man with a pendulous belly standing on a scale that reads 260lbs (118K). The bubbles that come from his head say, "Thinks: Thanx to Gut Loading!"

Also, the overfeeding of crix with calcium can kill the poor things. How much calcium? It took me half an hour to find this half forgotten reference, so please take a look! http://www.repvet.co...ust_gutload.php I've seen similar comments elsewhere.

And don't forget, feeding your mantids with vitamin and mineral supplements and orange thingies that don't say what they contain, doesn't make you someone who wants the best for their mantids, it makes you someone who has no idea of what your insects need.


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## angelofdeathzz (Aug 8, 2010)

well after all that I'm gunna load my gut with beer,I'll let you know my finding's


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## Schloaty (Aug 31, 2010)

> *Except for young-earth creationist mantids, and even they have been doing it for thousands of years.


HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW! :lol: 

That REALLY tickled me. Man, I read a creat v/s evo board almost every day for the entertainment value - I should have known I needed to look no further than Phil.

On topic:

I feed my mantids the "porch light special" during the warm months (and during the weekends, day-time field special when I get the chance). In the winter, when I have to buy crickets, they just get carrots &amp; maybe a slice of apple tossed in their cage. Sometimes some honey, but only a tiny bit...and only when I'm feeling very generous.

Often isn't an issue, either, as usually the crickets don't last too long....they don't have a chance to starve...


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