# Feeding New Nymphs (Chinese)



## FraidyCat (Mar 1, 2016)

Hi! I'm due to get a _Tenodera sinensis_ ootheca very very soon, and I've read that you shouldn't feed new nymphs much in the first couple days since it can stress them out. Since I want to keep mortality to a minimum (I have some non-believers in my midst who think they'll ALL die out! not on my watch!!) is there anything that you can offer that wont stress them out? I figure its the actual presence of the feeder that stresses them. I was thinking about a gutted mealworm (i think the chitin would be too tough? my focus is the goo, however.) honey on a skewer, or a milk-soaked paper towel/sponge. Should I avoid having anything in there to begin with? if so, why? I feel like a lot can go wrong in the first few days from hatching.

A tad unrelated, but I seen people asking about offering raw meat on a string and I've seen it shot down many many times, does anyone know where this myth came from, and why a lot of people seem to know it? ps, i would love to see some mantis myth-busting


----------



## Salmonsaladsandwich (Mar 1, 2016)

In the summer, if you live in an area without regular pesticide use, you can tape some cloth over a drinking straw and slurp small gnats and the like off of the windows. Otherwise you should start or buy a fruit fly culture for them.

the raw meat thing isn't a "myth." I've done it before, you just need to wiggle it around a bit to get them to strike. Are you sure the people who "shot it down" didn't just mean it's unhealthy and unnatural for the mantis?


----------



## Jgod (Mar 1, 2016)

FraidyCat said:


> Hi! I'm due to get a _Tenodera sinensis_ ootheca very very soon, and I've read that you shouldn't feed new nymphs much in the first couple days since it can stress them out. Since I want to keep mortality to a minimum (I have some non-believers in my midst who think they'll ALL die out! not on my watch!!) is there anything that you can offer that wont stress them out? I figure its the actual presence of the feeder that stresses them. I was thinking about a gutted mealworm (i think the chitin would be too tough? my focus is the goo, however.) honey on a skewer, or a milk-soaked paper towel/sponge. Should I avoid having anything in there to begin with? if so, why? I feel like a lot can go wrong in the first few days from hatching.
> 
> A tad unrelated, but I seen people asking about offering raw meat on a string and I've seen it shot down many many times, does anyone know where this myth came from, and why a lot of people seem to know it? ps, i would love to see some mantis myth-busting


Chinese ootheca hatch tons of nymphs. So knowing that you'll want to make sure whatever enclosure you use will house them comfortably (enough room to harden their exoskeleton) I hatched my Chinese mantis in a 32oz cup and after the 1st day I separated them into their own containers. I could hear them knocking into each other, leaping and falling to the bottom of the container. I fed them fruit flies on day 3.

The movement of the prey entrances them in a way that lifeless raw meat just can't. I've heard of these feeding methods for sick or mismolted mantis that cannot catch prey on their own.


----------



## hibiscusmile (Mar 2, 2016)

I have had a hard time with these guys the last year, hard to keep them alive, must be doing something wrong. I am not misting like I used to. Seeing if that helps.


----------



## Starving Always (Mar 2, 2016)

Cool!! I heard that you should lightly mist your nymphs after being hatched out to increase the numbers of them being alive. They need to be able to dry after all they've been through. And I'd add a few fruit flies in the second day, but third is better! I'm not sure, but I hope this helps!! Keep us updated!


----------



## Extrememantid (Mar 2, 2016)

Starving Always said:


> Cool!! I heard that you should lightly mist your nymphs after being hatched out to increase the numbers of them being alive. They need to be able to dry after all they've been through. And I'd add a few fruit flies in the second day, but third is better! I'm not sure, but I hope this helps!! Keep us updated!


Feeding on the third day just increases the cannibalism.


----------



## Starving Always (Mar 2, 2016)

Extrememantid said:


> Feeding on the third day just increases the cannibalism.


Quite likely, oops.


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 2, 2016)

With my first few ooths I put each nymph into their very own container, and later ooths I left the nymphs all in a large 5 gallon container with plenty of food (I've done variations of this as well). For my efforts I find a bit of cannibalism is unavoidable and perhaps even necessary (as even with the best care, each separated, and well fed - many will die naturally anyway (the reason so many are born anyway)).

I find adding some fruit flies (Melanogaster) within about 30 hours of hatching ideal, as some seem to be born hungry. Watching the nymph behavior I found with some ootheca the nymphs were ready to eat within about 10 hours, and were happy to get the flies. The Chinese species nymphs are furious eaters, and will have no issues with feeding from the Melanogasters  I keep the nymphs together from anywhere from 4-7 days, with plenty of flies, before separating them. I separate them once their numbers stabilize, any weak ones have died already (naturally or cannibalized), and the remaining number of nymphs is much more manageable.

I found the remaining nymphs are much stronger and much more likely to survive until breeding adults. I theorize perhaps some cannibalize builds their strength, and perhaps imparts required nutrients ensuring their survival. It sounds cruel, but is the best way, read on the forum and elsewhere online for similar results.

I can say from experience caring for 300+ individual nymph cups is a worthless chore that requires about 4+ hours of daily work depending on your methods of feeding. In which you will still end up with the same number of surviving L2 and L3 nymphs as you would have if you would have waited a few days after they hatched before separating them, likely about 60 nymphs.

Either way try not to worry to much about it, I've hatched several dozen ooths now, and as long as they have food and water you will have more nymphs then you know what to do with.  

The only problem to watch for is water droplets. It sounds silly, but a single water drop can trap and kill dozens of newly hatched nymphs. I found adding moistened paper towels or moistened substrate, as the old ones dried out, a much safer alternative. If you think you really have to add water directly - use a fine hand pump sprayer, and spray *very* little. I have a one gallon chemical pump type sprayer (has the long wand and hose) that I bought new and cleaned just to spray my insects with spring water - it is the best thing I've purchased for them.


----------



## FraidyCat (Mar 8, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> With my first few ooths I put each nymph into their very own container, and later ooths I left the nymphs all in a large 5 gallon container with plenty of food (I've done variations of this as well). For my efforts I find a bit of cannibalism is unavoidable and perhaps even necessary (as even with the best care, each separated, and well fed - many will die naturally anyway (the reason so many are born anyway)).
> 
> I find adding some fruit flies (Melanogaster) within about 30 hours of hatching ideal, as some seem to be born hungry. Watching the nymph behavior I found with some ootheca the nymphs were ready to eat within about 10 hours, and were happy to get the flies. The Chinese species nymphs are furious eaters, and will have no issues with feeding from the Melanogasters  I keep the nymphs together from anywhere from 4-7 days, with plenty of flies, before separating them. I separate them once their numbers stabilize, any weak ones have died already (naturally or cannibalized), and the remaining number of nymphs is much more manageable.
> 
> ...


WOW!! I didnt expect to get so many kind and informative comments. Honestly, I thank all of you! I knew these little guys were hard to raise before buying the ootheca, but unfortunately they're the only kind available to me, and one of the few legal in my country! all of these posts will prove invaluable, so thank you all for pitching in your advice. I'll be sure to post lots of pictures and ask lots of questions once I get them in! I suppose I'll be referencing this thread and the already posted care sheet as well  

I was planning on putting the nymphs in an old fish-tank with a cardboard and pantyhose backing, would they still be able to find all the little flies alright? I heard they have great vision and all, but they look so teeny! maybe i'm under-estimating their appetite and hunting instinct, but they seem a bit easier to care for now that I've learned a little.


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 8, 2016)

FraidyCat said:


> WOW!! I didnt expect to get so many kind and informative comments. Honestly, I thank all of you! I knew these little guys were hard to raise before buying the ootheca, but unfortunately they're the only kind available to me, and one of the few legal in my country! all of these posts will prove invaluable, so thank you all for pitching in your advice. I'll be sure to post lots of pictures and ask lots of questions once I get them in! I suppose I'll be referencing this thread and the already posted care sheet as well
> 
> I was planning on putting the nymphs in an old fish-tank with a cardboard and pantyhose backing, would they still be able to find all the little flies alright? I heard they have great vision and all, but they look so teeny! maybe i'm under-estimating their appetite and hunting instinct, but they seem a bit easier to care for now that I've learned a little.


Pantyhose should work just fine, especially if it is double thickness/layered to prevent any escapes from "runs" in the material. As long as you line the aquarium with sticks that reach to the top from the bottom, they shouldn't have any problems with getting flies. The glass aquarium itself will be likely unclimbable, as nearly all mantids can not climb glass itself (the need for the long sticks).

Best of luck and have fun.


----------



## Krissim Klaw (Mar 8, 2016)

It typically takes 24-72 hours for prey drive to fully kick in. It varies some per each individual. The biggest stressor for this species however will be fellow mantises. This species is super active and doesn't do well crammed together with fellow siblings.


----------



## FraidyCat (Apr 23, 2016)

THE BABIES ARE HERE!!! its been about 48 hours since they hatched, so im going to see if i can introduce some prey. I havent seen any nymphs displaying any aggressive or hunting behavior at eachother, and I havent spotted any birth defects at all? I dunno if im blind or i managed a good hatch. I'll post my setup since its been working like a charm. Anyways, _should_ I be adding food? I have wingless fruit flies but a "second wave" of nymphs hatched just a few hours ago. Also, I noticed that some babies have a smooth end to their thorax while others have a forked prong. whats up with that?






(one of the first to hatch! im surprised they can look at you so accurately when theyre so little!)






(two little babies getting a drink from the rock i had just misted!)

The live planted moss substrate is both a blessing and a curse, I've spotted a few stray unintended bugs in there but from my knowledge they are either too small to be of harm or a detrivore or cant climb the perches. Still, I've been removing the bigger ones as they make themselves known! However, the fruiting bodies of the moss gives the mantises a good way to get around, and the moss itself doesnt leave any drops of water to get stuck in! despite the myriad of species of moss in there, none of the mantises get stuck on the fronds and they LOVE the clump of grass in the corner. Its a really interesting setup, my only problem being finding the actual mantids when it comes time to separate them.

As well, they are white when they hatch, yes?


----------



## CosbyArt (Apr 23, 2016)

Congrats on the hatch, and all the babies.  

The majority of birthing issues are not all visible, such as internal issues, problems with mouths when trying to eat, and other things as well. Indeed feed them Melanogasters, the new hatched nymphs will just avoid them. By "prongs" are you referring to the abdomen cerci/cercus or what exactly? As I do not know of anything on the thorax that could be called a "prong".

Indeed moss can hold many other critters, and why it is recommended to break/remove all the dirt from it to remove any inhabitants before adding it to a tank. The only thing that likely would be a issue are centipedes, which can be found in moss occasionally, as they could quickly kill off your the majority of your mantid nymphs.

What is white when they hatch, mantids? If so, yes mantids are a very pale color, as hatching is a form of molting and they are soft and very pale until they harden. In your animated GIFS the nymphs have taken on the usual typical Chinese nymph coloring.


----------



## avn (Apr 26, 2016)

I hope you have a lot of fruit flies, my friend! I had my tenodera ooth hatch about a week ago and I Only really had 1 actively producing fruit fly colony. I wish I had 4! I could easily have used them all.

What's your plan for all the nymphs?

btw their first molt will be in 8-12 days, depending on how well they're fed. Source: http://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/16213161#page/504/mode/1up


----------

