# 2 different sheilds



## hibiscusmile (Dec 14, 2009)

Can someone tell me which sheilds these are? Seems I have two different species and even their ooths and babies are different sizes. Will show different nymphs tomorrow if I can.


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## Emile.Wilson (Dec 14, 2009)

Yen created this thread a while back, it probably will help you

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?sh...c=14633&amp;hl=


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## hibiscusmile (Dec 14, 2009)

Thanks, I couldn't find it earlier, will need close up of the two mantis now!


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## beckyl92 (Dec 15, 2009)

what colours their underwings?


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## sufistic (Dec 15, 2009)

Could be any Rhombodera on this list! It's gonna be tough to ID especially if we don't know where the bloodline originated. Right Christian?


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## Christian (Dec 15, 2009)

Almost...

Not all _Rhombodera_ have a shield that is as large. But the relationship between _basalis, valida, stalii_ and _javana_ is a whole mess and not solved yet. While _basalis_ ist probably the same as _valida_, I couldn't assess the species that Yen has distributed due to a lack of specimens. Yen's species is usually smaller and easier to breed, but this is of absolutely no taxonomic value. Without genitalia preparation I cannot say anything.

That's why I always propagate to keep track of one's species and to use the IGM numbers when distributing them.


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## sufistic (Dec 15, 2009)

Christian said:


> Almost...Not all _Rhombodera_ have a shield that is as large. But the relationship between _basalis, valida, stalii_ and _javana_ is a whole mess and not solved yet. While _basalis_ ist probably the same as _valida_, I couldn't assess the species that Yen has distributed due to a lack of specimens. Yen's species is usually smaller and easier to breed, but this is of absolutely no taxonomic value. Without genitalia preparation I cannot say anything.
> 
> That's why I always propagate to keep track of one's species and to use the IGM numbers when distributing them.


IGM is very very awesome no doubt about that. Makes tracking a whole lot easier.


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## hibiscusmile (Dec 15, 2009)

gee, to late for that now! The smaller ones I got from my buddy Phil!


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## Rick (Dec 15, 2009)

Interesting. Does the smaller one lay the smaller ooth like that every time? I have a few ooths from Rhombodera and I noticed one was much smaller.


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## hibiscusmile (Dec 15, 2009)

Rick said:


> Interesting. Does the smaller one lay the smaller ooth like that every time? I have a few ooths from Rhombodera and I noticed one was much smaller.


So far yes! And the babies are a third smaller.


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## ismart (Dec 15, 2009)

Interesting!  Could just be a size difference. I have noticed my second generation is quite a bit smaller than my first generation.


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## sufistic (Dec 15, 2009)

ismart said:


> Interesting!  Could just be a size difference. I have noticed my second generation is quite a bit smaller than my first generation.


That's possible. Just like the size difference between Indonesian and Malaysian Orchids.


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## Ntsees (Dec 15, 2009)

Fascinating. Two mantids that are almost identical but separated by size or that banding. Let us know which is which.


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## Rick (Dec 15, 2009)

ismart said:


> Interesting!  Could just be a size difference. I have noticed my second generation is quite a bit smaller than my first generation.


I find that often captive raised are smaller than wild. Course that isn't the case here.


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## Christian (Dec 15, 2009)

> I find that often captive raised are smaller than wild.


That seems to be often the case with Mantis, Tenodera and other temperate species. The tropical ones often behave contrary, that is are larger than the values known from WC ones. This is most likely due to better food supply.


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## yen_saw (Dec 15, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Can someone tell me which sheilds these are? Seems I have two different species and even their ooths and babies are different sizes. Will show different nymphs tomorrow if I can.


 They are likely the same batch from Indonesia (java). I have seen sizes from 8.5 cm to 7 cm for female. Food supply and temperature have significant role on sizes.


Ntsees said:


> Fascinating. Two mantids that are almost identical but separated by size or that banding. Let us know which is which.


 The banding only occur during nymph stage for the Malaysian batch but obvious, almost non-existent for the Indonesia batch.


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## ismart (Dec 15, 2009)

Christian, if i sent you enough specimens, would you possibly be able to determine what species i currently have? I can send you a bunch of pairs when they die.


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## Christian (Dec 15, 2009)

Probably (_Rhombodera_ are difficult). But I only need the ones from Yen, the other species in culture (from Thailand or Malaysia) is _Rh. basalis/valida_. The bloodline should be intact.


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## sufistic (Dec 15, 2009)

Christian said:


> Probably (_Rhombodera_ are difficult). But I only need the ones from Yen, the other species in culture (from Thailand or Malaysia) is _Rh. basalis/valida_. The bloodline should be intact.


What about this and this from Singapore?


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## Christian (Dec 15, 2009)

Those are _basalis_.


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## Rick (Dec 15, 2009)

Christian said:


> That seems to be often the case with Mantis, Tenodera and other temperate species. The tropical ones often behave contrary, that is are larger than the values known from WC ones. This is most likely due to better food supply.


Interesting. I have noticed it on temperate like you said.


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