# May Take The Dive!



## adam98150 (May 11, 2009)

I'm currently thinking about buying some type of Mantid, my parents are going away in June/July I believe so It's the perfect opportunity to sneak one in. :lol: 

So, I have a lot of time ahead of me to do some serious research, I also work at a pet store part time so I'm sure I could get most of the equipment and supplies their.

I need suggestions for Mantids, tanks and reading material. I was thinking a small Exo Terra for the enclosure, possibly the 30 x 30 x 30. Since the top of it is made of mesh, could I place a low wattage lamp above the enclosure to provide heat? (It will be unstated)

For the Mantid itself, Orchids and Ghosts seem to appeal to me, but I haven't looked at everything avaliable (no where near), suggestions?  

Any help/advice is appreciated, if I need a bigger enclosure for the above mentioned, please do say so.


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## PhilinYuma (May 11, 2009)

Yay, it's May, so I can thump the good old Mantis Bible again! For the best introductory book on mantids, go to:http://www.bugsincyberspace.com/browse1.htm and go to the third (horizontal) column. The Book is _Praying Mantids: Keeping Aliens._ Get it now!


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## Katnapper (May 11, 2009)

Hi Adam.  Yep... start doing your research now, and it will pay off when you decide to get mantids, enclosures, and supplies.  Just start browsing the forums and reading past topics. Lots of newbie questions have already been asked and answered... you'll just need to find them. The "Search" feature helps a lot! You could search for "best enclosure" "best beginner mantis" etc.

Let's see... a good place to start browsing would be in the Housing/Enclosures section. There are some good recent discussions on vivariums and other things that ought to help in your decision making.  Best of luck to you, and above all - enjoy!


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## revmdn (May 12, 2009)

Welcome to the forum and this wonderful hobby.


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## adam98150 (May 12, 2009)

Thanks, I've already started reading past topics, I'll take a look in the enclosure section.  

I'll be sure to pick up that book, I've heard it's quite a read.


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## jameslongo (May 12, 2009)

adam98150 said:


> For the Mantid itself, Orchids and Ghosts seem to appeal to me, but I haven't looked at everything avaliable (no where near), suggestions?


Aren't Ghosts &amp; Orchids a tad hard to raise &amp; require higher than usual maintenance? As a newb (no offence intended mate), I'd suggest _T. aridifolia sinensis_ &amp;/or _S. limbata_ as a "starting mantid." You're from the States right? Raise these first &amp; get use to rearing the insect. When you feel comfortable with them, you can advance to the freakier mantids. You gotta earn the ghost :lol:


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## adam98150 (May 12, 2009)

Thanks for the suggestions.  

I'm actually from the UK, so obtaining the Mantid could be a problem, may have to get one via mail order. The Ghost/Orchid Mantids were just thoughts, I don't know too many mantids at the moment.


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## rensallar (May 12, 2009)

adam98150 said:


> Thanks for the suggestions.  I'm actually from the UK, so obtaining the Mantid could be a problem, may have to get one via mail order. The Ghost/Orchid Mantids were just thoughts, I don't know too many mantids at the moment.


I'm not sure if they are available in the UK, but I started with the Chinese Mantis.. so far, they have been really easy to learn about and care for. It has been really rewarding to have hatched them from the ooth and raise them from day 1.

The ooths were really inexpensive. That would be my suggestion.. if they are not available / legal to keep in the UK. Hatch an ooth and you'll have a ton to learn from. Then you won't feel as horrible if you make a mistake with 1 or a couple of them, as opposed to if you accidentally drown a $20 nymph.

If not, maybe religiosa is highly availble where you're at. Pick something inexpensive and hardy to start with.


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## adam98150 (May 13, 2009)

Thanks for the advice.  

How many Mantids would you typically get from a Chinese ooth? I'd love to keep them together, but I'm guessing you can't because of cannibalism issues?

I'm sure if I put in the research, I could get one of the more difficult species? What do you think?

Also, I can find suppliers on various forums for the Mantids.


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## rensallar (May 13, 2009)

adam98150 said:


> Thanks for the advice.  How many Mantids would you typically get from a Chinese ooth? I'd love to keep them together, but I'm guessing you can't because of cannibalism issues?
> 
> I'm sure if I put in the research, I could get one of the more difficult species? What do you think?
> 
> Also, I can find suppliers on various forums for the Mantids.


Out of an egg case, there will be between 100-400, according to the web. I definitely had over 100 hatch out of each ooth. People on this forum recommend keeping them all together until you have around 20 left.. or however many you think you can care for individually. This way, you end up with the strongest of the bunch. Then separate them. I kinda went crazy and tried to save them all, and house them separately.

I soon discovered that there were way too many to take care of, and I couldn't keep my fruit fly stock up enough to feed them all. So I picked out what looked to be the strongest and kept them individually and let the others live together.

I'm sure if you did plenty of research, you could keep one of the more difficult species. But they're all interesting.. even the simple ones.


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## Jwonni (May 14, 2009)

I started off with an african mantis they are a good beginner mantis

If you do go with a ghost or orcid you shouldn't have any problem finding either of these in the uk


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## PhilinYuma (May 14, 2009)

adam98150 said:


> Thanks for the advice.  I'm sure if I put in the research, I could get one of the more difficult species? What do you think?
> 
> Also, I can find suppliers on various forums for the Mantids.


When you start to raise mantids, it is important to know about the species you're raising, but it is also very important to make all the begginer's mistakes and get them out of the way. Yes, if you don't make sure that the lid is on all rhe way round, a nymph can climb out through a very tiny crack. Fruit flies don't like their pot to be placed on top of a hot radiator. You misted the pot of new nymphs and they all dived into the water and drowned! Yep, crix can bite mantids! Yesterday you counted twenty nymphs in a butterfly cube, so today you're going to put them in twenty individual pots, except that now you're down to five. You misted and fed your AZ unicorn mantids faithfully every day, and now they're all dying! The list goes on, and there are a lot of problems that you won't find in a book. If you start with an inexpensive and easy to breed species, you are less likely to be discouraged by anaccountable deaths and the loss of expensive stock.

I started with four ghost and four AZ unicorn nymphs. Three of the ghosts (all females!) survived to adulthood and two laid fertile ooths (yes, I was "loaned" a male). All four unicorns were dead by 5th instar. That's how it goes!


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## jacksun (May 14, 2009)

There is no "illegal" to keep Mantis in the UK, there are however many "illegal to release in the wild" mantids in the UK. Unless for some reason you plan to buy a non-native or non-established mantis, and then go release it in the wild there is no issue. If you plan on getting nymphs, you'll have to order from a UK breeder, the trip across the pond from North America would most likely kill them.

It is a completely different story if the animal/insect is on the endangered species list, basically don't.

See http://www.defra.gov.uk for rules.


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## adam98150 (May 15, 2009)

I have a lot of time a head to make a decision, your post was very enlightening Phil. Now I'm not quite sure, I wanted a Ghost or an Orchid but these two species stay relatively small, and expensive, as stated. Any ideas for larger Mantids, ones which can tackle decent sized locusts once in its adult stage? I was thinking of the Chinese Mantis, but still not sure. I still really like the look of the Ghost/Orchid.  

Instead of waiting until July, I may try to get one earlier, possibly after my exams (middle of June).  

I'll check out the African Mantis now Jwonni, thanks.


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## lectricblueyes (May 15, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Yay, it's May, so I can thump the good old Mantis Bible again! For the best *introductory book* on mantids, go to:http://www.bugsincyberspace.com/browse1.htm and go to the third (horizontal) column. The Book is _Praying Mantids: Keeping Aliens._ Get it now!


"book" is a funny word to use for such a document. The last novel I bought was a new release for $9.95 at Border's (The Time Traveller's Wife). Now THAT was a book.

The information in the Praying Mantids: Keeping Aliens is vital, key, important, cool, awesome and organized. It does include 2 pages of color photo's but the rest is just black and white sheets of paper with so-so quality b/w photos. This "book" is not what one would regularly think of as a book. It's not bound like a book and is in par with a 44-page pamphlet (if you include the 2 pages of color photos). Not sure how exactly that would justify the $14 (+ $2 shipping) except the information inside is very valuable. Really, the information is very valuable but don't expect a "book". It's something you could have delivered in an over sized envelope, something that nearly could fit in a standard letter envelope. The only justification I can see in that price is that these are not mass produced and could possibly be in production by the author who might not be able to land the unreal prices seen at big printing shops. That, and this is a small niche book for a small niche hobby. It's not just about mantids, it's about actually KEEPING and caring for mantids.

Don't take my word, here are the reviews from Amazon:

Not so much a book, March 30, 2007

By V.T. - See all my reviews

As a pamphlet. While there was lots of useful information, the pages are all in black and white and there are no brilliant color photos as shown on the cover. The book was rather small with information crowded among the pages. It almost looked homemade.

Very helpful for amateur mantis breeder, May 27, 2007

By N. J. Williams "armchair explorer" (Davis, CA United States) - See all my reviews

Despite being a mere 40 pages, this book is packed with everything an amateur mantis breeder would need to know about anything. It tells you about how they mate, about the ootheca, making a mantis garden, food, nymph care, and many common species. One of the most useful features is that for each common food, it gives pros, cons, and how to rear/raise/culture them. In the species section, it gives identification help (of the mantis and the ootheca), and specific care requirements. I recommend this book to anyone who is interested in mantises.

Source: http://www.amazon.com/Praying-Mantids-Keep...s/dp/0971912920


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## bassist (May 16, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> Aren't Ghosts &amp; Orchids a tad hard to raise &amp; require higher than usual maintenance? As a newb (no offence intended mate), I'd suggest _T. aridifolia sinensis_ &amp;/or _S. limbata_ as a "starting mantid." You're from the States right? Raise these first &amp; get use to rearing the insect. When you feel comfortable with them, you can advance to the freakier mantids. You gotta earn the ghost :lol:


Orchids and Ghosts aren't really that hard to care for I keep mine in the same conditions haven't had any losses so far.


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## matt020593 (May 16, 2009)

Hi Adam, I'm also in the UK.

First of all, P. Paradoxa and H. coronatus are both great species and are pretty easy to care for. Orchids like it a little more warm and humid than most that is all, but will do fine at room temperature(22C). If you are staring off with young nymphs then don't bother getting an exo terra faunarium, for a young nymph all you need is a pint/half pint plastic cup, kitchen roll as a substrate, a twig for them to climb on and some form of netting/porous material and an elastic band as a lid, you can buy these at ASDA or somewhere like that. If you are after a large mantis have a look at anything under the Hierodula or Sphodromantis genus, Chinese mantids have great character but are a bit plain looking IMO and sometimes a decent hatch from a chinese ooth can be a bit overwhelming if it's your first mantids. A nymph would have problems finding food in a faunarium.

You should try PMing Rob Byatt on here he has some H. Coronatus nymphs available. Also try look for available mantids on some of the UK mantis forums, although this one is better for info IMO. And make sure you get a lot of fruitflys if you end up buying a few young nymphs.

Personally I wouldnt bother buying a book and instead spend your time reading through these forums, a lot of the information in some books is a bit out dated or wrong. But I haven't read _Keeping Aliens_ so I can't comment.

BTW what exams are you doing?


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## PhilinYuma (May 16, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> "book" is a funny word to use for such a document. The last novel I bought was a new release for $9.95 at Border's (The Time Traveller's Wife). Now THAT was a book. Don't take my word, here are the reviews from Amazon:
> 
> Source: http://www.amazon.com/Praying-Mantids-Keep...s/dp/0971912920


Or, for the current edition: http://www.amazon.com/Praying-Mantids-Keep...3341&amp;sr=1-1

There's one highly favorable review there that I completely agree with!


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## adam98150 (May 16, 2009)

bassist said:


> Orchids and Ghosts aren't really that hard to care for I keep mine in the same conditions haven't had any losses so far.


I'm glad to hear that, they look great.



Matthew Whittle said:


> Hi Adam, I'm also in the UK.First of all, P. Paradoxa and H. coronatus are both great species and are pretty easy to care for. Orchids like it a little more warm and humid than most that is all, but will do fine at room temperature(22C). If you are staring off with young nymphs then don't bother getting an exo terra faunarium, for a young nymph all you need is a pint/half pint plastic cup, kitchen roll as a substrate, a twig for them to climb on and some form of netting/porous material and an elastic band as a lid, you can buy these at ASDA or somewhere like that. If you are after a large mantis have a look at anything under the Hierodula or Sphodromantis genus, Chinese mantids have great character but are a bit plain looking IMO and sometimes a decent hatch from a chinese ooth can be a bit overwhelming if it's your first mantids. A nymph would have problems finding food in a faunarium.
> 
> You should try PMing Rob Byatt on here he has some H. Coronatus nymphs available. Also try look for available mantids on some of the UK mantis forums, although this one is better for info IMO. And make sure you get a lot of fruitflys if you end up buying a few young nymphs.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice, I'm basically on this forum everyday now, looking through past topics. I'll take a look at the Mantids you have mentioned.  

The book doesn't seem to be readily avaliable in the UK, I've only located one source which stocks it, and it holds a pretty high price tag.

As for the exams, I've now finished ICT and General Studies, Design Tech and Environmental Science is on the way. Lucky me.


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## matt020593 (May 16, 2009)

Well don't bother with it then just keep looking on here. If you do decide to buy Orchids, make sure you look around for a decent price because some people will over charge you a lot. You want to be paying about £5/6 at L1/L2, well that's what I'd pay anyway.

GCSEs or A level? I'm doing GCSEs at the moment, it's not fun  .


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## adam98150 (May 16, 2009)

That seems a fair price for the Orchids, I'll search around before making a purchase, thanks.

Doing A levels at the moment, pretty boring stuff. Just keep at the revision, short term effort for long term gain.


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## matt020593 (May 16, 2009)

adam98150 said:


> That seems a fair price for the Orchids, I'll search around before making a purchase, thanks.Doing A levels at the moment, pretty boring stuff. Just keep at the revision, short term effort for long term gain.


Haha yeah thats what is keeping me going and the super long summer  .


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## jameslongo (May 17, 2009)

Do not buy anything under L2!!! Even L2 is a little risky. You may get a nymph that wasn't meant to be alive in the first place &amp; that would make you a sad panda. Bigger the better. Who confirms/refutes?


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## matt020593 (May 17, 2009)

I kind of agree but I think it is very dependant on the species. IMO L2 is pretty safe L3 even better. The lower instar you get the more you should buy to make sure you get a good survival rate.


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## adam98150 (May 18, 2009)

Thanks all for your input, you have been of great help.

Right, I'm going to pick up an Exo Terra Terrarium (45x45x60) from the pet store where I work, to get it at a discount price. I know I can keep them in plastic tanks, net cubes and cups, but I'd rather have a nice big display enclosure to go on top of my snake viv.  

I think I'm going to attempt to keep a few Ghost nymphs together, or a few Violin Mantids if I decide to obtain a lamp for the extra heat. I have a Bearded Dragon too, so hopefully if I decide to keep the Violins, they'll be able to tackle the Locusts which he eats.

Decisions, decisions . . .


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## matt020593 (May 18, 2009)

Unfortunately G. Gongylodes(Violin) need to only take flying prey (their bodys aren't design to eat prey which would be found on or just above the ground such as locusts/crickets)+ they are scared of anything bigger than a bee :lol: , also they cannot climb glass well so unless you put the back ground in they won't be able to climb. That enclosure is very big so I advise you don't get nymphs below 4th instar as they will not be able to find their food and feed them flying prey so it hangs around the top where they will be. Also one more tip, don't put too much foliage in because it could affect their moulting leave about 6" just below the mesh top free so they don't get caught on anything.

If you want something that can eat locusts, go for a Chinese mantis aswell, it's scary what they can tackle  

I feel like I am just saying all your ideas are wrong, they are not, but I am just going on what I and others have experienced. We don't want you to one of the new beginners that just go into it buy all the wrong stuff and end up killing their mantids without proper advice  .

Keep reading around and post any more questions you have, even if they sound stupid :lol: we've all done it.


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## adam98150 (May 18, 2009)

Thank you, I only really read a single caresheet for this particular species, I would have read more before I made the purchase.  

I take it Fruit Flies would be an ideal choice? Would moths and house flies be ok if I found them everynow and again too? (naturally gut-loaded)

I'll make sure their's plenty of space to moult.


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## matt020593 (May 18, 2009)

adam98150 said:


> Thank you, I only really read a single caresheet for this particular species, I would have read more before I made the purchase.  I take it Fruit Flies would be an ideal choice? Would moths and house flies be ok if I found them everynow and again too? (naturally gut-loaded)
> 
> I'll make sure their's plenty of space to moult.


Fruit flies are perfect, for young mantids, but they will only take these up to 3rd instar maybe 4th for ghosts. House flies, moths, bees are a great food source as they are covered in polen which is great for mantids(do be careful though as they sometimes have a nasty bite, just make sure they go to adults and sub adults of large species). What most on here do is they get maggots from fishing shops, keep them in the fridge and take a few out every now and then to hatch them into flies(never a favourite of my mum:lol. I got a pint of maggots for £2.20 last week which will last me a very long time(make sure you do this in advance as sometimes they take longer to hatch than expected). Anything that flys your mantids will love- so will your beardie :lol: .

Gongys are a really nice species but I would do quite a bit of reading on them, although some find them hard to care for but I disagree they seem to be pretty hardy but just make sure you keep them hot, dry and feed them flies and they will be happy. I think it may be because I keep reptiles I am used to having all the heat bulbs and extra work.


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## Katnapper (May 18, 2009)

I think P. paradoxa are a fine choice... for beginner and experienced alike!  Good luck with whatever you decide to go with.


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## adam98150 (May 19, 2009)

Matthew Whittle said:


> Fruit flies are perfect, for young mantids, but they will only take these up to 3rd instar maybe 4th for ghosts. House flies, moths, bees are a great food source as they are covered in polen which is great for mantids(do be careful though as they sometimes have a nasty bite, just make sure they go to adults and sub adults of large species). What most on here do is they get maggots from fishing shops, keep them in the fridge and take a few out every now and then to hatch them into flies(never a favourite of my mum:lol. I got a pint of maggots for £2.20 last week which will last me a very long time(make sure you do this in advance as sometimes they take longer to hatch than expected). Anything that flys your mantids will love- so will your beardie :lol: .Gongys are a really nice species but I would do quite a bit of reading on them, although some find them hard to care for but I disagree they seem to be pretty hardy but just make sure you keep them hot, dry and feed them flies and they will be happy. I think it may be because I keep reptiles I am used to having all the heat bulbs and extra work.


Thanks again.  

I'm pretty close to town, there's a fishing shop their, great idea. I'll get a hold of some fruit flies before I make a purchase too. I've just realised you're from Leeds too, have you found any decent places that stock Mantids? I'm fine with mail order, but I'd like to get a good look at the species I'm going to be buying before placing an order.



Katnapper said:


> I think P. paradoxa are a fine choice... for beginner and experienced alike!  Good luck with whatever you decide to go with.


That's good to know, these seem the most likely as I'm banned from using more electric.


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## matt020593 (May 19, 2009)

Where abouts in Leeds are you? Not many shops tend to stock mantids really but I have seen P. Wahlbergii in a reptile shop in keighley a long time ago if you can get there? No garantee they will have them though, might be worth ringing some shops.


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## bassist (May 19, 2009)

adam98150 said:


> That's good to know, these seem the most likely as I'm banned from using more electric.


Then it's good you're drawn to Orchids and Ghosts I keep both at room temperature.


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## adam98150 (May 20, 2009)

Good, they're going on top of one of my vivs anyway, so they'll likely get some heat from the ceramic attached underneath.

I'm near the carboot/football world (Osmondthorpe). It's a 5 minute drive to Paws for Thought.  

I'll be sure to ring a few shops before making a trip.


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## adam98150 (May 26, 2009)

Right, I've decided to get 5 - 6 Phyllocrania paradoxa. Someones offered to ask a friend to pick me some up at a bug fair at the beginning of June. I'm wanting L2 - L3.

The thing is, are they ok to eat Crickets at all? They're much more readily avaliable. I'll supplement their diet with blue bottles, bees/wasps also. I don't believe my store carries fruit flies, and I'm not willing to culture them.

Anything I can gutload the crix with? Once the mantids are ready, I'll switch them to locust. And also, is it ok to keep just males / just females together? I don't want them mating.


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