# Using pictures without permisson



## tier (Nov 29, 2009)

Hi

I am member in a fisherman club. I love fishing since I am about 8 years old.

But what I want to tell you:

The sports club I am a member of was using three little pictures resp. drawings of a pike, eel and bass for the logo of the club. They also have a website. On this website, they use this three mentioned pictures, too. Since several years. Without problems.

When the website was constructed, it was a time where internet picture use without permisson was not persued. The member of our club who constructed the internet site was not aware of wht he was doing.

This week, the sports club got a letter from a lawyer. The club has to send 6000 Euro to the owner of the pictures. We now had to power up our own lawyer. I will keep you updated, but I think there is no chance for the sports club not to pay this money.

Another point: This is happening in Germany. But I know you have much bigger problems with this kind of justice in USA, where you can get money from McDonalds when your coffe is too hot, get money from Marlboro when you recieve a lung chancer and get money from Ford because the automatic driving system is not working while you are sleeping. So be aware, lawyers are searching the internet for pictures without permission. When they find some, they search for the ID of the people who have the permission. And here your problem starts.

Please do not get me wrong, I do not want to wake up sleeping dogs. It's only like: "Ever thought about it?"

regards


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## hibiscusmile (Nov 29, 2009)

I have! Thats someones hard work! Can't say that I blame them.


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## elf run1 (Nov 29, 2009)

hmm...good luck with it m8


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## kamakiri (Nov 30, 2009)

tier said:


> Another point: This is happening in Germany. *But I know you have much bigger problems with this kind of justice in USA*, where you can get money from McDonalds when your coffe is too hot, get money from Marlboro when you recieve a lung chancer and get money from Ford because the automatic driving system is not working while you are sleeping. So be aware, lawyers are searching the internet for pictures without permission. When they find some, they search for the ID of the people who have the permission.* And here your problem starts.**Please do not get me wrong, I do not want to wake up sleeping dogs.* It's only like: "Ever thought about it?"
> 
> regards


Tread lightly. You are not a lawyer in the US and have no idea what the current definition of 'frivolous' is. I'd take our justice over anywhere else despite the ridiculously outdated cases you cited as a measure of the quality of our justice system. You DIDN'T need to add the "another point" part to you post. :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: Chew on that for a bit.


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## Matticus (Nov 30, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Tread lightly. You are not a lawyer in the US and have no idea what the current definition of 'frivolous' is. I'd take our justice over anywhere else despite the ridiculously outdated cases you cited as a measure of the quality of our justice system. You DIDN'T need to add the "another point" part to you post. :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: Chew on that for a bit.


You dispute the fact that we have a bigger problem with frivolous lawsuits than any other country? Our justice system is great, yes, but there's no sense in not owning up to the fact that we do have our problems. There's no need for him to "tread lightly". We're all (or mostly) adults here.


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## Orin (Nov 30, 2009)

I find it frustrating when people borrow pictures (moreso information) without permission and without even giving credit or a link. Of course it's easier to prove the photos.



kamakiri said:


> I'd take our justice over anywhere...


I'm curious what we pay for our justice system, total and as a part of GDP. I imagine we pay far more than anyone else.


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## beckyl92 (Nov 30, 2009)

unlucky  good luck!


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 30, 2009)

Oops! Didn't even mean to post on this! But since I have.....

"Frivolous" is applied to law suits in the U.S. in two ways. We laymen will often apply it to suits where we are the plaintive(!) or to jury decisions like those cited by tier, which seem to be egregiously misguided whether they are not. Legally, a "frivolous" law suit is one which has no basis in law. A good example is the use of the "nunc pro tunc"(cf) rule. For a while, some libertarians and others were writing this phrase on their tax returns as an "argument" for not paying taxes. Nowadays, the IRS regards this as "frivolous" and imposes a stiff fine for its use. In trial court, attempting to use this rule to reverse what is claimed to be a prior judicial error rather than a clerical one is regarded in the same way.

I guess that it is a common practice everywhere, for a lawyer to "test the water" In this case, he can ask for as much as he likes in the hope that the defendant will pay up and desist rather than consulting legal counsel. In this country, cases of copyright infringement often evoke a Cease and Desist order from the injured party's lawyer. I once watched a friend in Illinois melt thousands of cast lead figures of Disney characters following such a complaint by Disney lawyers (just as well. He could now be sued for selling figures with a high lead content!).

The copyright issues that emerge from time to time on this forum and usually involve folks using internet material without acknowledgment are usually moral rather than legal. On a forum like this, unacknowledged posts are not only theft of other people's work, but an attempt to convince other members that you thought of something or took pix that you did not.

Meanwhile, back to the mantids.


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## kamakiri (Nov 30, 2009)

Matticus said:


> You dispute the fact that we have a bigger problem with frivolous lawsuits than any other country? Our justice system is great, yes, but there's no sense in not owning up to the fact that we do have our problems. There's no need for him to "tread lightly". We're all (or mostly) adults here.


No, I'm NOT saying we don't have problems. Don't put words in my mouth. tier did NOT need to make the comment as to compare us to them. :angry: I still say tread lightly. I'm already offended at the ignorance of such uneccessary statements. The post would have been just fine it stopped before the "another note" section. Copyright law has abso-fricken-lutely NOTHING to do with the cases cited. :angry: 



Orin said:


> I'm curious what we pay for our justice system, total and as a part of GDP. I imagine we pay far more than anyone else.


I don't know the figure...but imagine if we spent significantly less.


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## Ntsees (Nov 30, 2009)

tier said:


> ...get money from Ford because the automatic driving system is not working while you are sleeping....


I'm not aware that Ford cars have an automatic driving system. Was I too busy searching for mantids that I haven't kept up with the latest technology?


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 30, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> No, I'm NOT saying we don't have problems. Don't put words in my mouth. tier did NOT need to make the comment as to compare us to them. :angry: I still say tread lightly. I'm already offended at the ignorance of such uneccessary statements. The post would have been just fine it stopped before the "another note" section. Copyright law has abso-fricken-lutely NOTHING to do with the cases cited. :angry: I don't know the figure...but imagine if we spent significantly less.


Kamakiri: I don't think that tier was trying to attack our American Way of Justice, but rather explaining why he brought a German legal issue to the attention of our largely American membership. Like me, tier is obviously not a lawyer, and maybe his examples weren't the best or most current, but the matching of "frivolous" with copyright law suits in this country is perfectly appropriate in this age of "copyright trolls." The press and internet are full of examples, but for an account written this month, see: http://theappleblog.com/2009/11/13/app-sto...h-name-changes/

Am I imagining things, or are the different nationalities among our membership becoming increasingly hostile in the past month? As a European who has lived for over half a century in the US, I can feel a bout of schizophrenia coming on!

Ntsees: I think that tier was referring to the massive recall of cars with faulty cruise control switches a few years back, don't you?


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## kamakiri (Nov 30, 2009)

Phil, I don't think it's all that comparable or relevant. I am actually offended by tier's post on two levels...as a sometimes pro photographer, I do not take copyright laws lightly. Also as a US citizen for justice system criticism by a foreigner.

I feel they need to pay the 6,000 and shut up!


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## hibiscusmile (Nov 30, 2009)

Dear Me! We should all "breath in.... breath out" there I feel better, don't you? :lol: I once wanted to use some of Disneys caracters, I wrote them and they wrote me back, telling me NO! That's the way it works here, and I assume most other places too. It is always nice for the owner of something to receive credit for it and to use it to their own liking!


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## Ntsees (Dec 1, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> ...Ntsees: I think that tier was referring to the massive recall of cars with faulty cruise control switches a few years back, don't you?  ...


Thanks. Problems with cruise control was the only other thing that I could think of at the moment.


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## Peter Clausen (Dec 1, 2009)

Touchy issue with me too, as far as photo "borrowing" goes. Type in "orchid mantis" to google and my photos come up

1st

4th

13th

http://images.google.com/images?source=ig&amp;...sa=N&amp;tab=wi

How do you think it feels to have the #1 image on google for orchid mantis and NOT get credit for it? I recently heard the 70% of Americans get their news from Google. This is significant!

Many of the sites using my images would have been granted permission had they simply asked and offered to make a link back to my website. I get many of these requests on a regular basis and go out of my way to take photos for many (recently- a guy writing his thesis on a roach species and several photos for a new exhibit at Dubai Mall).

The only one that is actually credited to my website as the source is the 4th photo on the orchid mantis Page 1 gallery page. The 1st and 13th were STOLEN and placed on other websites. I write these people sometimes and I get replies consisting of shock, ignorance and attitude (rarely an apology). Like I'm the rude one! Most of the time they don't even write back. I have tons of photos stolen off my site each year. It feels like a lost cause sometimes, but I do occasionally spend a ridiculous amount of time tracking these people down and writing to them. They never understand the time that goes into the various aspects of the hobby or the passion behind all of it. Obviously, they are in an oblivious world of their own on the issue.

All this despite a request at the bottom of nearly every page of my website stating that photos are not to be copied w/o permission.

And for all these reasons it is greatly appreciated when members on Mantidforum _kindly _remind each other not to upload copyrighted images to the forum. Better to make a link!

By the way, if anybody wants to click on that first google image it will take you to this link: http://a1225.wordpress.com/2009/04/03/aura/#respond

Feel free to write to this person and tell them what you think of their (my) nice orchid mantis photo!


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## Orin (Dec 1, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> As a European who has lived for over half a century in the US, I can feel a bout of schizophrenia coming on!


The vast majority of "American" members *are* European. Show of hands on the native Americans here?


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 1, 2009)

Orin said:


> The vast majority of "American" members *are* European. Show of hands on the native Americans here?


Hah, Orin! You woke up0 this morning feeilng comical, no? I didn't say I was of European descent or that my great great grandparents fled the potato famine. I am European because I carry a European passport (some of us privileged folk are allowed two, so long as we are careful about the POEs where we use them!), because the "vast majority" of my family live there and because I can own property without paying huge surcharges.

I don't know any American who refers to himself as an "'American' European", do you?

Also, if we follow your shaky logic, then I guess that native Americans should be called Asians!

Still, that was a fun post!


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## kamakiri (Dec 1, 2009)

Peter,

I'm glad that _someone_ else on this forum understands from a calm and rational perspective. I suppose I am very emotional about the subject matters at hand, and my lack of maturity (as pointed out by others) is showing...

And the _only_ time that I haven't minded my work being passed off for another's is when I've been contracted and *paid* to do it  .


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## yeatzee (Dec 1, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Peter, I'm glad that _someone_ else on this forum understands from a calm and rational perspective. I suppose I am very emotional about the subject matters at hand, and my lack of maturity (as pointed out by others) is showing...
> 
> And the _only_ time that I haven't minded my work being passed off for another's is when I've been contracted and *paid* to do it  .


Photography you know takes work (you are a wedding photog. right?) so having someone blatantly use your image you spent maybe hours working on gives you every reason to be pissed off. Most think of them as nothing more than simple pictures, little do they know about the expensive equipment and time needed to get those results.

I hear ya Kamakiri!


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 1, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Peter, I'm glad that _someone_ else on this forum understands from a calm and rational perspective. I suppose I am very emotional about the subject matters at hand, and my lack of maturity (as pointed out by others) is showing...
> 
> And the _only_ time that I haven't minded my work being passed off for another's is when I've been contracted and *paid* to do it  .


Yes that's a good apologetic for citing the source of yr pix, Peter, and I can't see anyone arguing with it. I do have a question, though, about you decision not to provide the source of the musical backgrounds to yr videos. I just looked at the assassin bug one that is backed by "Stick out your can, Here comes the garbage man." I guess that the copyright to that song would be held by the Fleischer estate, it was definitely copyrighted in 1931 in the Betty Boop cartoon of that name.

Now what happens if, a few years from now, some company buys up the rights on those movies and sues you for $9,000 (tier somewhat overvalued the Euro against the dollar!)? Would you pay? Would you fight it? It seems that the situation is very similar to that of tier's sports club.


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## Orin (Dec 1, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Also, if we follow your shaky logic, then I guess that native Americans should be called Asians!


You did not understand the post. It had nothing to do with your family.

If by your logic a generation to a few removed is the same as thousands of years and uncertain lineage then shaky logic is a standard you should aspire to.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 1, 2009)

Orin said:


> You did not understand the post. It had nothing to do with your family.If by your logic a generation to a few removed is the same as thousands of years and uncertain lineage then shaky logic is a standard you should aspire to.


Let me make it really easy for you Orin. I am a European with a European passport. I can vote in Europe. I can travel without a visa. You, regardless of your ancestry are not European, you do not have a European passport. You cannot vote in Europe. In Europe, you would be what kamakiri called tier, a foreigner. I had no trouble in understanding what you said. but I don't understand why you would make such an obvious and irrelevant point in reply to my original post.


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## Peter Clausen (Dec 1, 2009)

The assassin video lists source credits for the public domain audio file at the end when the screen goes blue.

My plan, Phil, is to pay any legal fees as required by the court and then use the same lawyer they used to sue me and subsequently sue everybody that is using my photos. I might make as much money on balance, once it's all said and done, as the lawyer! I just lack the motivation to get really angry about it. I suspect a lawsuit against me for doing what so many other people are doing to me would be sufficiently motivating. You gotta love Phil!


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 1, 2009)

Peter said:


> The assassin video lists source credits for the public domain audio file at the end when the screen goes blue.My plan, Phil, is to pay any legal fees as required by the court and then use the same lawyer they used to sue me and subsequently sue everybody that is using my photos. I might make as much money on balance, once it's all said and done, as the lawyer! I just lack the motivation to get really angry about it. I suspect a lawsuit against me for doing what so many other people are doing to me would be sufficiently motivating. You gotta love Phil!


Sounds like a plan!


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## Orin (Dec 1, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Let me make it really easy. ... obvious and irrelevant point in reply to my original post.


It was not a post directed at you. I don't care if you can vote in Europe. I didn't say I was European.

You can vote for the whole European continent?


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 1, 2009)

Orin said:


> It was not a post directed at you. I don't care if you can vote in Europe. I didn't say I was European. You can vote for the whole European continent?


I probably got the idea that the original post was directed at me because it quoted part of one of my posts! See how easily I become confused?  And no, you didn't say that you were European, though your last name doesn't sound much like any Asian names I know. Sorry if I misinterpreted yr ethnicity!

And yep, I can vote for the regional MP to the European Union Parliament much as we can vote for a state senator to the U.S. Senate here. In fact, the Union subsumes the Scandinavian countries as well as almost all of the countries in Europe, though a few countries like Turkey are still out in the cold. A lot different from 50 yrs ago, eh?


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## Orin (Dec 1, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> See how easily I become confused?


Yes.


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## kamakiri (Dec 1, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Photography you know takes work (you are a wedding photog. right?) so having someone blatantly use your image you spent maybe hours working on gives you every reason to be pissed off. Most think of them as nothing more than simple pictures, little do they know about the expensive equipment and time needed to get those results. I hear ya Kamakiri!


Well, I'm a *sometimes* wedding photographer! And that's one of the industries that get hit pretty frequently by copyright infringement. It's usually from photos that are pulled right from another wedding photographer's site and presented as their own.


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## yeatzee (Dec 2, 2009)

ah I see....

Man would I be mad if I saw someone using my wedding shots. I can't even imagine all the pressure and PP work they take!


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