# So this the one?!?! the 'elusive' Larger Florida mantis?



## yen_saw (Sep 28, 2009)

I had a business trip to Tampa Bay recently, due to the extra free time I had a chance driving up North to check out any bugs in the park. Mainly after Stagmomantis sp. About 40 minutes later I saw a park which look like a good place for bugs, and lo and behold there is this 'extra' long mantis at first glance I thought it was foreign (Florida is notorious for hosting foreign sp), later there were more and more found, some were found pariring up and it is definitely too 'long' to be a Carolina mantis. I brought back dozens of them and they seem to fit in the description of Stagmomantis floridensis based on http://entnemdept.ifas.ufl.edu/choate/mantid_key2_03.pdf

***************************************************************************

_11. Larger (58mm or more); form more elongate, abdomen of female nearly parallel-sided, tegmina_

narrower, reaching only middle of abdomen; stigmatic patch pale, inconspicuous, or obsolete ..........

................................................................................

.................................... Stagmomantis floridensis Davis

- Smaller (57mm or less); form less elongate, abdomen of female strongly widened at middle, tegmina

broad, reaching apical third of abdomen; stigmatic patch black, conspicuous (cover photo) ...........

................................................................................

............................. Stagmomantis carolina (Johannson)

****************************************************************************

















They average in 7-8 cm. Elongated with narrow tegima compare to S. carolina.

This is how they compare to the S. carolina (from MO) adult females. I am not picking the extreme here this 'S. floridensis' is the average 7.5 cm. I would be surprise if they are the same species.











Some females starting to produce ootheca today, they appear to be narrower than the S. carolina and longer as well just like their elongated body.






This is the ooth of S. carolina recently deposited as comparison.






The longest I got is close to 9 cm long!!! :blink: 






So the question is, did I nail it? is this the 'elusive' Stagmomantis floridensis? How on earth this species is not in hobby, maybe they don't do well in captivity? i also have few brown specimens they are gorgeous! They are very active despite the long body shape and will jump from the edge of the container. This is definitely the longest Stagmomantis sp. I have ever seen, if this is not S. floridensis. I will bring a specimen to Texas A&amp;M for identification. I have about 9 males but they drop like flies as of today and only 2 survive, females are doing much better as usual.


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## cloud jaguar (Sep 29, 2009)

Awesome find Yen Saw! Hopefully you DID find the elusive s. floridensis! Very beautful specimin - i can't wait to see how the brown ones look!


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 29, 2009)

It is nice looking Yen!


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## leviatan (Sep 29, 2009)

Wow ! a big beauty one !


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## Rick (Sep 29, 2009)

Again, congrats on finding. I have been waiting to see if you would post the pics on here.


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## [email protected] (Sep 29, 2009)

So you found them on the west coast, Could you PM me the name of that town/park???


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## Katnapper (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm interested for Christian to chime in on this one....


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## ismart (Sep 29, 2009)

Great find yen!  Finally someone has found the elusive _Stagmomantis floridensis_!  

Awsome looking specimens! B) Just keep me in mind when you have some for sale.  :lol:


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## massaman (Sep 29, 2009)

florida is not on the west coast


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## Rick (Sep 29, 2009)

QUOTE (massaman @ Sep 29 2009, 09:14 AM)

florida is not on the west coast

Nobody said it was.


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## ismart (Sep 29, 2009)

massaman said:


> florida is not on the west coast


He means the west coast of florida.


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## ABbuggin (Sep 29, 2009)

massaman said:


> florida is not on the west coast


He was talking about the west coast of Florida.


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## yen_saw (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks all, i am contacting the U of F and Texas A&amp;M entomology should get an answer soon. Unfortunately there is very limited existing info about this species on internet, so with the info about rearing/breeding/ooth incubating, i will just check the weather pattern and go from there. with the warm weather there I wonder if the ooth ever go through diapause at all.

My next bug hunting trip will be in Bentsen Rio-Grande-Valley State Park in McAllen, TX coming this mid October. I hope to find more Stagmomantis sp there.


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## Ntsees (Sep 29, 2009)

Wow. The proportion of the body parts from that mantid differs from the Carolina mantid. Although I've never seen one, that may as well be the Larger Florida mantis. If not, then it's some Stagmomantis spps but it is clearly not a carolina in my eyes.


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## ABbuggin (Sep 29, 2009)

Wow! Amazing mantids!


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## revmdn (Sep 29, 2009)

Way cool. Great find Yen.


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## massaman (Sep 29, 2009)

Just the luck of the draw to have found this hard to find species!


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## Peter Clausen (Sep 29, 2009)

Shape is similar to this Stagmomantis: http://bugsincyberspace.com/stagmomantis_gracilipes.html


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## mantidsaresweet (Sep 29, 2009)

That is awesome Yen! Keep us posted on how the ooths do.


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## Christian (Sep 29, 2009)

Wow! Looks good, the specimens resemble the figure from the original description. Good to hear that they aren't as rare at last.


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## Ntsees (Sep 29, 2009)

Peter said:


> Shape is similar to this Stagmomantis: http://bugsincyberspace.com/stagmomantis_gracilipes.html


Errr...the resemblance is so close! I hate it when there's not enough information on the internet. Need more photo shots of both specimens at every angle/detail. Does it look like the _Stagmomantis gracilipes _is lacking the black speck on the forelegs (even then, that may not be a distinguishing mark and  with the information on the internet, can we accept it as the _Stagmomantis gracilipes_)? The frustration I have when dealing with something like this. Oh well, by the end, this forum will make it clear.


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## Christian (Sep 29, 2009)

Those two are different species. Please don't cause more confusion as there already is.


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## Ntsees (Sep 29, 2009)

Christian said:


> Those two are different species. Please don't cause more confusion as there already is.


Yes, I understand that they are both different species. What I was trying to get at was that it's difficult to distinguish them with the limited information that's available. The mantid in the link posted by Peter and the mantid on this topic could even be the same species, but if they are not, what is it that distinguishes them? Information the on the internet is not always valid. I just hope the mantid that Yen Saw found is indeed a floridensis so that this will be put to rest.


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## Hypoponera (Sep 29, 2009)

Barring some accidental importation, S. gracilipsis can only be found in AZ. Location alone makes the odds very low of S. gracilipsis being what Yen found. I will try to find a good species description to scan and post.


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## Christian (Sep 29, 2009)

To make things clear, the internet is absolutely no source of any taxonomic relevance whatsoever.


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 29, 2009)

Christian said:


> To make things clear, the internet is absolutely no source of any taxonomic relevance whatsoever.


Yeah. The Terra Typica site seems to be gone for ever, and the Tree of Life and similar sites don't provide us with those essential dichotomous keys. Many of the American members on this forum are particularly interested in those members of the Stagmomantis genus that inhabit our Southern States and I think that all three American moderators have collected them in the field . A number of us have contacts with entomologists, but you could elevate your status from Valued Member to Forum Treasure by providing us with a (simplified if necessary) key to the Stagmomantis genus. I know of five extant members in the U.S. and have heard from a reliable source (thanx Yen!) that there may be seven. There are a number of us who can use a binocular microscope or powerful simple lens, and can maneuver our way through a dichotomous key. Thanks! We shall be forever in your debt and wiill obviously have specimens to send you as an expression of our gratitude!

Massaman: "Just the luck of the draw to have found this hard to find species!"

Either that or the work of a skilled and experienced mantis hunter, or both!


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## Hypoponera (Sep 29, 2009)

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?ac...post&amp;id=160

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?ac...post&amp;id=161

This is part of a key I've posted awhile ago. It should help with "most" Stegmomantids. I have no info on _S. montana _though!!


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 29, 2009)

Hypoponera said:


> http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?ac...post&amp;id=160http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?ac...post&amp;id=161
> 
> This is part of a key I've posted awhile ago. It should help with "most" Stegmomantids. I have no info on _S. montana _though!!


LOL, Mike! Is that from the Helfer book? I'm sure that I have it floating around somewhere! Trouble is that it may be too old to be of any taxonomic use whatever.


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## Christian (Sep 29, 2009)

There is no key. This genus is in a horrible state, with about 20 species. In the US, there should be the following ones:

_carolina_ (Johansson, 1763): southern States

_californica_ Rehn &amp; Hebard, 1909: California

_floridensis_ Davis, 1919: Florida

_gracilipes_ Rehn, 1907: Arizona (Pima County)

_limbata_ (Hahn, 1835): Arizona, Texas -&gt; may be a complex of two species

_montana_ Saussure &amp; Zehntner, 1894: occurrence in the US doubtful


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## Rick (Sep 29, 2009)

Christian said:


> There is no key. This genus is in a horrible state, with about 20 species. In the US, there should be the following ones:_carolina_ (Johansson, 1763): southern States
> 
> _californica_ Rehn &amp; Hebard, 1909: California
> 
> ...


S. carolina is found in northern states too and has a very large range.


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## Hypoponera (Sep 29, 2009)

I think the locations Christian gave are for where the species may have been first found and described. _S. carolina_, _S. limbata _and _S. californica _all have HUGE ranges across multiple states.

For mantids that key is still valid. None of the US species have had name changes, nor can I find information on any new species that have been found. There are several _Stegmomantis_ species found in Northern Mexico that could potentially show up at the border though. Do they get driver's licences? I assume that _S. montana _fits in the last catagory.


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 29, 2009)

Hypoponera said:


> I think the locations Christian gave are for where the species may have been first found and described. _S. carolina_, _S. limbata _and _S. californica _all have HUGE ranges across multiple states.For mantids that key is still valid. None of the US species have had name changes, nor can I find information on any new species that have been found. There are several _Stegmomantis_ species found in Northern Mexico that could potentially show up at the border though. Do they get driver's licences? I assume that _S. montana _fits in the last catagory.


+1

When first named, _Stagmomantis limbata_ did not occur west of AZ and is now one of the most common mantids in CA.

Unlike some states (e.g.Alaska, Connecticut, Idaho, Louisiana, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Utah, Washington and West Virginia  ) , the U.S /Mexico border states, with one exception, do not issue driver's licences to illegal aliens. Since most, if not all Stagmomantis sp.that use a state name as their trivial name, live primarily or originally in that state, one would expect that _S. montana_ came from Montana, but as a now dead naturalist friend of mine pointed out, there are winters in MT that are so cold -- F20+ below zero -- that he doubted that members of this genus could survive.


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## kamakiri (Sep 30, 2009)

Great work Yen! I'm very interested in buying some for breeding...


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## cloud jaguar (Sep 30, 2009)

+1 ! Put me on the list Yen


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## Christian (Sep 30, 2009)

That key may work for 5 US species, but, as I ommitted some species which were also occasionally listed but not found since. This is probably just due to some mis-IDs, but you never know. And, _limbata_ may actually comprise two species, but this is an old information which was not reprised since. Not talking about the mesoamerican species. Formerly, there were about 5 genera where today is only one. All in all a completely messed up group.


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## yen_saw (Oct 1, 2009)

Both David (Yager) and Texas A&amp;M curator couldn't think of anything else beside _Stagmomantis floridensis _based on the available information (http://entnemdept.ifas.ufl.edu/choate/mantid_key2_03.pdf) but refer me to the science museum in Gainesville, FL (http://www.fsca-dpi.org/OverViewFrame.htm) which carried dried specimen of _S. floridensis_. After contacting the head of curator there, he is very certain it is _S. floridensis _from the pics I sent and the similarity from the specimen in museum collection, and said a dried specimen wouldn't be necessary. Another entomology professor from U of F mentioned _S. carolina _is more common than_ S. floridensis _although the later species is visibly larger, and there is no record of _S. gracilipes _in FL.

So I guess it is the Larger Florida mantis, _Stagmomantis floridensis_!!

Here is a pic of three adult male Stagmomantis sp.

THe far left is MO 'Carolina', the middle is TX 'Carolina' and the one on right is Larger Florida. The Texas Carolina looks like the hybrid between the two  Sorry I didn't say that.







Just one of the comparison between the two species, adult male.






My son took this while I was checking out the details between some dead Stagmomantis sp. and about to spread the dead ones






Took over the camera. This is adult male 'Carolina' from Texas






Three of the pinned up Stagmomantis






S. floridensis pair






I am trying to document my finding between the species hopefully it could be any help for the future reference.


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## Orin (Oct 1, 2009)

Your abilities to locate interesting mantids are impressive. Great find on the _S. floridensis _Yen.


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## Rick (Oct 1, 2009)

Very nice. Any of them still alive? Can't wait until we can collect together. We both have the "eye".


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## yen_saw (Oct 1, 2009)

Orin said:


> Your abilities to locate interesting mantids are impressive. Great find on the _S. floridensis _Yen.


 Thanks Orin.


Rick said:


> Very nice. Any of them still alive? Can't wait until we can collect together. We both have the "eye".


 Yes i still have plenty. Yeah that would be great lets aim for next Summer or Fall.


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## yen_saw (Oct 1, 2009)

Christian said:


> There is no key. This genus is in a horrible state, with about 20 species.


There is this Orthoptera, Mantidae by E. Giglio-Tos (1927) that has keys for most mantis species around the world, it doesn't has the keys for all 20 Stagmomantis species (In fact the only US Stagmomantis sp I can find in the book is S. carolina), does the key still valid for the other species in this genus?


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## [email protected] (Oct 1, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]hey Yen cool pics cool find man.[/SIZE]


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## Christian (Oct 1, 2009)

> There is this Orthoptera, Mantidae by E. Giglio-Tos (1927) that has keys for most mantis species around the world, it doesn't has the keys for all 20 Stagmomantis species (In fact the only US Stagmomantis sp I can find in the book is S. carolina), does the key still valid for the other species in this genus?


No. Giglio-Tos unnecessarily splitted _Stagmomantis_ into 5 genera or so, and produced a lot of synonyms (e.g. _Stagmomantis nordica_ for dark _carolina_). Using that key is very difficult, and some species are missing which they were described later.


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## yen_saw (Oct 2, 2009)

ArkBlue said:


> [SIZE=14pt]hey Yen cool pics cool find man.[/SIZE]


 Thanks ArkBlue.


Christian said:


> No. Giglio-Tos unnecessarily splitted _Stagmomantis_ into 5 genera or so, and produced a lot of synonyms (e.g. _Stagmomantis nordica_ for dark _carolina_). Using that key is very difficult, and some species are missing which they were described later.


Thanks. I was wondering about S. nordica too. I thought some of them are useful although very old publication, but as you said some species name have been revised afterwards. Unfortunately over here in the US, Stagmomantis sp study were mainly conducted by James Rehn and Morgan Hebard and those publication are very old as well.


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## Hypoponera (Oct 2, 2009)

This is the best description I could find. It is out of "Technical Bulletin #93". Alas, I only kept the pages regarding mantids in AZ, so I can not give any sitation info.

"_Stagmomantis gracilipes _Rehn. A rare mantis, closely resembling others of the genus. Female usually yellow or golden; male brown or green. It is best distinguished by the long, slender legs and pronotum: male, body, 58mm.; pronotum, 19.5mm.; front femur, 13.1mm.; hind femur, 16.5mm. Female, body, 61mm.; pronotum, 21mm.; front femur, 17mm.; hind femur, 19mm. Adults, early, june 12 to July 17."


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## Christian (Oct 2, 2009)

Rehn &amp; Hebard did a good job, only sometimes they engaged too much in detail, loosing track of important features distinguishing species. But their work is very accurate and the figures are fantastic. What a pity that genital preparations weren't done at that time!


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## brancsikia (Oct 30, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Yeah. The Terra Typica site seems to be gone for ever...


the fantastic site with the largest collection of Mantodea pictures seems to be back:

Terra Typica Mantodea database

Cheers and enjoy!

now


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## Rick (Oct 30, 2009)

brancsikia said:


> the fantastic site with the largest collection of Mantodea pictures seems to be back:Terra Typica Mantodea database
> 
> Cheers and enjoy!


I get the header but clicking on the links does nothing.


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## cloud jaguar (Oct 30, 2009)

Rick said:


> I get the header but clicking on the links does nothing.


ditto


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## Pelle (Oct 30, 2009)

Click


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## Rick (Oct 31, 2009)

Pelle said:


> Click


Same thing man. :blink:


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## Pelle (Oct 31, 2009)

Hmm.. Try this

http://www.terra-typica.ch/

Then go to SpeciesDatabase &gt;&gt; MANTODEA (Blätter-Modus) &gt;&gt; Show matching organisms

That should work


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## MantidLord (Oct 31, 2009)

Pelle said:


> Hmm.. Try thishttp://www.terra-typica.ch/
> 
> Then go to SpeciesDatabase &gt;&gt; MANTODEA (Blätter-Modus) &gt;&gt; Show matching organisms
> 
> That should work


Haha, thanks a lot.

Question: is there a specific reason why two _Mantis religiosa _adult females would have such a noticeable difference in size (the first pic on _Mantis religiosa_)? I ask because when I had my females, one was a monster compared to the other two, who were of normal size. And yes, all were found in the same general area.


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## kamakiri (Oct 31, 2009)

Pelle said:


> Hmm.. Try thishttp://www.terra-typica.ch/
> 
> Then go to SpeciesDatabase &gt;&gt; MANTODEA (Blätter-Modus) &gt;&gt; Show matching organisms
> 
> That should work


The last two pages (just testing the links) worked for me.

http://ttwebbase.dyndns.org/mantid/browse....?order=Mantodea

http://ttwebbase.dyndns.org/mantid/list.html


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## Rick (Oct 31, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Haha, thanks a lot.Question: is there a specific reason why two _Mantis religiosa _adult females would have such a noticeable difference in size (the first pic on _Mantis religiosa_)? I ask because when I had my females, one was a monster compared to the other two, who were of normal size. And yes, all were found in the same general area.


I have the same thing with tenedora angustipennis. Captive bred is tiny compared to wild caught. Could also be differences based on location.


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## sbugir (Oct 31, 2009)

Rick said:


> I have the same thing with tenedora angustipennis. Captive bred is tiny compared to wild caught. Could also be differences based on location.


Mhm, my wild Chinese male was larger than my captive female. It sucked.


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## MantidLord (Nov 1, 2009)

lemmiwinks said:


> Mhm, my wild Chinese males was larger than my captive female. It sucked.


Even though both were caught in the wild and raised to an adult? Though the larger one was caught at a sub-adult and the other two were caught a couple of molts before adulthood. I guess that makes since.


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## Rick (Nov 1, 2009)

Has anyones larger florida mantid ooths hatched yet? I have them and I hate waiting!


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## yen_saw (Nov 17, 2009)

Rick said:


> Has anyones larger florida mantid ooths hatched yet? I have them and I hate waiting!


Nothing from me yet. I leave most of the oothecae overwintering right now. My guess is the hatching pattern is similar to other Stagmomantis sp. where oothecae in the wild start to hatch only next Spring. I agree with you on the waiting part.






All the males are now on display tray....


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## Rick (Nov 18, 2009)

How many females did you have?! That's alot of ooths. I labeled mine 10/9 so it has just been over a month. I hope they hatch within the next few weeks.


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## kamakiri (Nov 18, 2009)

I'm guessing at a 8+ week incubation period. Mine still haven't hatched...indoor or out.


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## massaman (Nov 18, 2009)

yep I hate waiting too kind of hard to be patient on some ooths while others hatch quickly and its the suspense that is killing me but all I can do is wait and just mist and watch!


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## yen_saw (Nov 19, 2009)

Rick said:


> How many females did you have?! .....









Still have few more females alive, but not for long.

Will bring some ootheca back into stable 85F for incubating starting next month.


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## Rick (Nov 20, 2009)

Wow Yen. I am keeping my ooths in the 80's. Can't wait!


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## ismart (Nov 20, 2009)

yen_saw said:


> Will bring some ootheca back into stable 85F for incubating starting next month.


Yen, what temps are you keeping the ooths in now?


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## yen_saw (Nov 20, 2009)

ismart said:


> Yen, what temps are you keeping the ooths in now?


Currently (Close to 2 months) the oothecae are outside the house. ~65-70F (day) / 45-50F (night) - SE Texas weather around this time. Nice eh  

Edit: Trying to follow Tampa's weather. Do not let the ooth experience temperature below 35F for too long.


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## Rick (Nov 20, 2009)

yen_saw said:


> Currently (Close to 2 months) the oothecae are outside the house. ~65-70F (day) / 45-50F (night) - SE Texas weather around this time. Nice eh  Edit: Trying to follow Tampa's weather. Do not let the ooth experience temperature below 35F for too long.


I hope they don't need any cold. I started mine straight away.


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## massaman (Nov 20, 2009)

same here as soon as I got mine I put them in a 32 oz cup and been misting every day and also got a limbata ooth with them but hoping they hatch by x-mas or new years at least.I am not sure if this will be a problem but only able to keep my apartment in the seventies and there is no way I can get the temp in the 80s that would be a stretch on the heat bill so trying to keep things room temp at least!


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## yen_saw (Nov 20, 2009)

Promise to update here if anything hatch. Might take a long time. The Yersiniops sophronicum and Litaneutria minor oothecae had me waited for 6 months before hatching, i hope this one doesn't take as long.


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## massaman (Nov 20, 2009)

question would it be a problem to put the Floridensis ooths outside even if they been in the apartment for a few weeks to a month or would it be too late and they are going through development stages and not advised to put back outside!


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## yen_saw (Nov 23, 2009)

Sorry for coming back late on this one Paul. As there is no breeding/incubating record for this species I can only guess. If this species indeed need a cooler temperature to kick start incubating, it shouldn't be a matter to bring the ooth out for cooler temp now. The ootheca will just experience a longer summer period in your apartment before you place it outdoor. Good luck, same as you I am also the guinea pig here.


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## minard734 (Nov 8, 2011)

This species can be found in Wahneta/Winterhaven, Florida, as well. It has been confirmed, as my cousin found many 70mm MALES!


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## yen_saw (Nov 14, 2011)

Nice. Did your cousin find any females?

I would love to travel back to Florida and look for some S. floridensis again. I think this species is no longer in the culture.


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## minard734 (Nov 16, 2011)

No, no females at all. and yes, you should return to FL. If you get any S. floridensis, I would love to have some! Hahaha! Trade or money, either way. Unless my cousin can find a good amount.


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## Gretchen (Nov 22, 2011)

Nice


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## minard734 (Nov 24, 2012)

Is it possible that there is another species of Stagmomantis in FL? My cousin caught a "floridensis" with carolina features. I just don't know about it. Tell me if you see the problem too. It is 70mm long. But look at the wing covers!!! Thorax is quite long... but notice how it's not so thin.


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## aNisip (Nov 24, 2012)

That is a Stagmomantis carolina...yes there are other stagmomantis sp in FL....that's def a carolina...


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## minard734 (Nov 24, 2012)

AndrewNisip said:


> That is a Stagmomantis carolina...yes there are other stagmomantis sp in FL....that's def a carolina...


I know you want to think it. I know it REALLY looks like one. I even asked Yen... he thinks it is floridensis, last time I checked. I've seen many carolina and they do NOT get this big... EVER! Not since I was 6, have I seen them this big... and regular carolina and floridensis are both down there... but these in betweeners are present... Also... I'll show you another picture... I am shocked that it's so big. I told my cousin it was carolina 'till I saw it in person... but look at the thorax and head:

See the "floridensis" and true floridensis together on the upper left hand corner? And see the carolinas to the right? It's weird.

Is a hybrid possible? It's not been proven wrong yet.

Just see how it is the same length as the floridensis to the left of it... and that floridensis is 69mm. What is wrong with it? Also see the 2 nice sized male floridensis in there. The carolinas were collected by me. They are all 48-60mm.


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2012)

It looks like S. carolina to me, however the size is unusual if true.


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## aNisip (Nov 25, 2012)

The only thing is that clearly tells me not floridensis is the skinny abdomen, they will never get that wide like the one in your picture; however a hybrid could very well be the case here...and not enough brown phase floridensis have been found yet...all we find are the big green ones and we can easily tell those apart...if I can raise some nymphs to adult hopefully I can get some brown phase and see the similarities and differences...


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## Ntsees (Nov 25, 2012)

Ryan Minard said:


> I know you want to think it. I know it REALLY looks like one. I even asked Yen... he thinks it is floridensis, last time I checked. I've seen many carolina and they do NOT get this big... EVER! Not since I was 6, have I seen them this big... and regular carolina and floridensis are both down there... but these in betweeners are present... Also... I'll show you another picture... I am shocked that it's so big. I told my cousin it was carolina 'till I saw it in person... but look at the thorax and head:
> 
> See the "floridensis" and true floridensis together on the upper left hand corner? And see the carolinas to the right? It's weird.
> 
> ...


Nice comparison between the supposed "floridensis", the true floridensis, and carolina. Since you have the wings opened for both the "floridensis" and carolina, have you checked with a microscope/magnifying glass to see if the wing veining on the forewing is the same/different? When I took entomology years ago, that's what the class used to identify insect species that looked similar and so it should apply for mantids.

As for my opinion on the identification, I think the "floridensis" is a large carolina. I do not use length and tend to use body formation and patterns for identification.


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## minard734 (Nov 25, 2012)

Ntsees said:


> Nice comparison between the supposed "floridensis", the true floridensis, and carolina. Since you have the wings opened for both the "floridensis" and carolina, have you checked with a microscope/magnifying glass to see if the wing veining on the forewing is the same/different? When I took entomology years ago, that's what the class used to identify insect species that looked similar and so it should apply for mantids.
> 
> As for my opinion on the identification, I think the "floridensis" is a large carolina. I do not use length and tend to use body formation and patterns for identification.


But floridensis has different bodily proportions... And I am well aware of this.

That is why I posted this... I just have trouble believing this specimen to be any of the 2 species.

I really want someone to consider this... There has been more than 1 of these and it is really impossible for a true carolina to get this big. I know it sounds like pure exaggeration but just look a the size!! all specimens of this look have been 65-71mm. Kind of long, huh? Not quite as big as floridensis but bigger than carolina.

Just look at the tenodera sinensis (smaller specimen at about 90mm) below it!

I need yen to come look at these again.

This is not my specimen. I didn't believe it till I saw it in person. If I get the ooth, I will try and rear some of these and provide a few nymphs to curious forum members, if you guys are interested  .


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## brancsikia339 (Nov 25, 2012)

Strange as it looks like a giant carolina! I'd go for hybrid


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## minard734 (Nov 28, 2012)

brancsikia339 said:


> Strange as it looks like a giant carolina! I'd go for hybrid


I'm thinking that as well... I hope to breed these  .


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## Mime454 (Nov 28, 2012)

yen_saw said:


> Nice. Did your cousin find any females?
> 
> I would love to travel back to Florida and look for some S. floridensis again. I think this species is no longer in the culture.


So, did they ever hatch?


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## Mime454 (Nov 28, 2012)

Ryan Minard said:


> I'm thinking that as well... I hope to breed these  .


If it is a hybrid, wouldn't that mean that it is very likely that the organisms will be sterile?


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## MantidLord (Nov 28, 2012)

How do you know it's "impossible"? Yen has created threads of his trips to Arizona I believe, and he had pictures of carolinas with unbelievable size variation. Perhaps these abnormally large ones are at the extremes of the variation? It's certainly possible given the history of this species having a lot of variation in size. I think the proper way would be to either (as Ntsees said) look at wing venation or better yet, analyze the genitalia. Until then, we can't be certain. I do think it's weird though. Heck, maybe it is a hybrid between the two species. Stagmomantis limbata and carolina have been produced hybrids before (I have proof if you want the article!!!) however the nymphs were weak and they died. Maybe carolina hooked up with floridensis.


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## minard734 (Nov 30, 2012)

Mime454 said:


> If it is a hybrid, wouldn't that mean that it is very likely that the organisms will be sterile?


Not true... many hybrids are perfectly healthy. It really depends. Usually they would be sterile though...

As for looking further into identification... I need to wait till I have this species myself. I am not the one WITH the specimens. I really hope to get ahold of this one. I noticed a few minor differences (in the thorax and a few other places) so I don't know about it being a freak carolina. Will need to look into it more in the coming months...

And MantidLord... PLEASE give me that article! I am REALLY interested. Would love to give it a read.


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## AxolotlsAreCoolToo (Nov 30, 2012)

wow what an interesting mantid. you selling any of the babies?


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## agent A (Nov 30, 2012)

AxolotlsAreCoolToo said:


> wow what an interesting mantid. you selling any of the babies?


I already told u u can have some californicas when they hatch :lol: and he lost the floridrnsis stock sadly


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## AxolotlsAreCoolToo (Nov 30, 2012)

agent A said:


> I already told u u can have some californicas when they hatch :lol: and he lost the floridrnsis stock sadly


oh yeah i forgot =] stagmomantis seems fun


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## minard734 (Dec 1, 2012)

AxolotlsAreCoolToo said:


> oh yeah i forgot =] stagmomantis seems fun


I might be able to get you some "giant carolina" as I am now calling these mysteries, as long as the hatch out is good  .


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## MantidLord (Dec 1, 2012)

Biology of the bordered mantid, Stagmomantis limbata Hahn (Orthoptera, Mantidae). _Annals of the Entomological Society of America_,_30_(1), 96-109.

If you can't access the article on your own, send me your email address and I'll send the pdf.


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## Mime454 (Dec 2, 2012)

Ryan Minard said:


> I might be able to get you some "giant carolina" as I am now calling these mysteries, as long as the hatch out is good  .


If they really are hybrids, I doubt they'll hatch, but if they do, I'll trade you some nice specimens for some.


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## AxolotlsAreCoolToo (Dec 2, 2012)

Ryan Minard said:


> I might be able to get you some "giant carolina" as I am now calling these mysteries, as long as the hatch out is good  .


yes that would be great thank you just pm me or sothing when ready


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