# Help



## [email protected] (May 12, 2009)

Ill make this short sence i am sick but i was checking on my mantids and was horrified to see one was munching on another it has happened before but i thought i could stop it so i gave the cage a good shake now i have an injered mantis with a mesed up face do you think i can save it it only has line 1/3 of a mouth?

Or do you think i sould get the "Brick"


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## [email protected] (May 12, 2009)

It slipped my mind to say she/he was a C. gemmatus and everybody is getting there one containers.(humm i can’t seem to find that puking smiley)


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## Katnapper (May 12, 2009)

If it only has about 1/3 of a mouth left, it likely won't be able to eat. You can wait and see if it will... but if it doesn't eat, either the freezer or giving it to another mantis as food is probably the best option.


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## Rick (May 12, 2009)

While some have limited success keeping mantids together I don't recommend it unless they are small nymphs.


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## [email protected] (May 12, 2009)

I tried to get him to eat honey but he refused so it is not looking good  i think i will give him till tomorrow if not i dont see a reason to continue his suffering. (i think i will use katnapper method of recycling)


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## jameslongo (May 12, 2009)

Chase said:


> I tried to get him to eat honey but he refused so it is not looking good  i think i will give him till tomorrow if not i dont see a reason to continue his suffering. (i think i will use katnapper method of recycling)


FREEZE IT, FREEZE IT! Kill it in the cold, or at least anaesthetise the poor bugger before you feed it to anything. Mantids actually enjoy insect popcicles.


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## Katnapper (May 12, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> FREEZE IT, FREEZE IT! Kill it in the cold, or at least anaesthetise the poor bugger before you feed it to anything. Mantids actually enjoy insect popcicles.


OK, James.... :huh: what happened to this viewpoint?



jameslongo said:


> Mantids = robots. As long as you feed them appropriately, &amp; sex the adult males with adult females sometimes, a mantis will live a care-free life. They don't have the capacity to feel emotions or pain for that matter. Their chemistry is a lot simpler than that of any vertebrate. For instance, I have a adult False Garden Mantid that BIT HER OWN ARM OFF to avoid the toxins of a spider bite circulating throughout her system. They can feel pressure but no pain, if that makes sense.


Why the disparity?


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## jameslongo (May 12, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> OK, James.... :huh: what happened to this viewpoint? Why the disparity?


It does seem like I'm back-flipping at every turn doesn't it. OK, they may not be able to feel pain but I imagine it must not be very pleasant to be feasted on alive. However, my previous comment would also suggest that, since they cannot feel any emotions, getting eaten is not as big of a deal for them as it is to vertebrates. :huh: This is all very confusing.

I guess for all of the physiochemistry of a mantid, or lack of it in this case, I don't like feeding live mantids to other mantids. Mantids are probably the smartest bug in the Insecta class. Since they are predators, they have to have a strategy to catch their prey. This arose from the higher protein diet than their herbivorous cousins, which we know helps increase brain chemistry. Just ask Sam Neill  For these reasons, mantids seem to have a higher awareness about them that surpass that of most other insects. I'll even go as far as saying they have a little personality. This appeals to me, as I am sure it appeals to you. Using a mantid as a feeder insect doesn't sit right with me because they are pets to me. I believe it's a lot simpler than feeding Fluffy to Fido but there's still some sort of attachment for the mantid being fed. I stated that mantids were robots, yet did not you come to empathise with Wall-E. Wussy example, I know.  

It may be for the greater good in that you're putting it out of its misery (I mean, uh... it's going to die anyway  ) &amp; it will provide sufficient nutrients to a hungry mantid, but I'd rather see it serving its "obligation" dead than alive &amp; writhing.

That's probably all there is to it. I hope what I said made sense.

James.


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## PhilinYuma (May 12, 2009)

Sure it makes sense!

You spend too much time talking with Superfreak. That could confuse anyone!

You just don't have the killer instinct that your partner has!


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## Katnapper (May 12, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> It does seem like I'm back-flipping at every turn doesn't it. OK, they may not be able to feel pain but I imagine it must not be very pleasant to be feasted on alive. However, my previous comment would also suggest that, since they cannot feel any emotions, getting eaten is not as big of a deal for them as it is to vertebrates. :huh: This is all very confusing.I guess for all of the physiochemistry of a mantid, or lack of it in this case, I don't like feeding live mantids to other mantids. Mantids are probably the smartest bug in the Insecta class. Since they are predators, they have to have a strategy to catch their prey. This arose from the higher protein diet than their herbivorous cousins, which we know helps increase brain chemistry. Just ask Sam Neill  For these reasons, mantids seem to have a higher awareness about them that surpass that of most other insects. I'll even go as far as saying they have a little personality. This appeals to me, as I am sure it appeals to you. Using a mantid as a feeder insect doesn't sit right with me because they are pets to me. I believe it's a lot simpler than feeding Fluffy to Fido but there's still some sort of attachment for the mantid being fed. I stated that mantids were robots, yet did not you come to empathise with Wall-E. Wussy example, I know.
> 
> It may be for the greater good in that you're putting it out of its misery (I mean, uh... it's going to die anyway  ) &amp; it will provide sufficient nutrients to a hungry mantid, but I'd rather see it serving its "obligation" dead than alive &amp; writhing.
> 
> ...


I do understand, James.   I think of them as pets and do form attachments to them also. And it does bother me a little bit to watch one of them eat another... and know that I was the "meal planner," sacrificer, and essentially executioner of a doomed mantis. But I do also view it as completely natural in practice... it does routinely happen in nature, and not as a result of any decisions I make. Thus, I'm able to reconcile the deed in my mind as providing food for one animal with another. If it bothers me very much, I stop watching (or taking pics) and go about other business until the meal is done.

I don't think it bothers anyone to think of mantids cannibalizing other less fortunate or fit mantids in the wild. It's the way things are, and when we don't see it (and aren't attached to those particular nameless mantids) we aren't bothered by it. It's just the idea of being the executioner of a "pet," and then watching the execution that doesn't sit right with some.

I know I sound heartless and callous, maybe morbid and cruel. But as much as I care about and love keeping mantids in general, I do not differentiate between, or give preferential treatment to, appropriate live mantis food, once the mantis in question is doomed anyways. I am fascinated by, and interested in studying all aspects of their habits, whether objectionable by human standards and sympathies or not. And a mantis, as food, would seem to have superior beneficial nutrients available to give and sustain another one of my pets. "For the greater good" says it all.

My suggestion... Chase, after serving an obvious "goner" for dinner... if it bothers you, don't watch. And don't tell James, whether you did or didn't... and/or watched or not!


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## jameslongo (May 12, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> I do understand, James.   I think of them as pets and do form attachments to them also. And it does bother me a little bit to watch one of them eat another... and know that I was the "meal planner," sacrificer, and essentially executioner of a doomed mantis. But I do also view it as completely natural in practice... it does routinely happen in nature, and not as a result of any decisions I make. Thus, I'm able to reconcile the deed in my mind as providing food for one animal with another. If it bothers me very much, I stop watching (or taking pics) and go about other business until the meal is done.  I don't think it bothers anyone to think of mantids cannibalizing other less fortunate or fit mantids in the wild. It's the way things are, and when we don't see it (and aren't attached to those particular nameless mantids) we aren't bothered by it. It's just the idea of being the executioner of a "pet," and then watching the execution that doesn't sit right with some.
> 
> I know I sound heartless and callous, maybe morbid and cruel. But as much as I care about and love keeping mantids in general, I do not differentiate between, or give preferential treatment to, appropriate live mantis food, once the mantis in question is doomed anyways. I am fascinated by, and interested in studying all aspects of their habits, whether objectionable by human standards and sympathies or not. And a mantis, as food, would seem to have superior beneficial nutrients available to give and sustain another one of my pets. "For the greater good" says it all.


You're right Katnapper. We are 'mantid executioners' but we're the type who refrain from wearing the balaclavas &amp; carry halberds, &amp; jeer at the poor thing. We do it for the greater good. I'm glad we now see on level terms. This discussion has carried over from a couple of topics  And don't start labelling yourself as cruel &amp; morbid cos everyone on this forum has either done it or will do the same thing. We're mantis folk  



Katnapper said:


> My suggestion... Chase, after serving an obvious "goner" for dinner... if it bothers you, don't watch. And don't tell James, whether you did or didn't... and/or watched or not!


  :lol:


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2009)

It was just sad to see him trying to drink...... in vain and if he could not drink then eating was out of the question.

So he went to the freezor then was introduced to a hungry florida bark mantis. It was sad but it had to be done.


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## Katnapper (May 13, 2009)

Sorry he couldn't make it, Chase.  



Chase said:


> It was sad but it had to be done.


That kind of sums it up too.


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## rensallar (May 13, 2009)

How do you get another mantis to eat the doomed mantis? I have L2 Chinese mantids.. had a couple who were pretty much goners that I dangled in front of some of the bigger nymphs I have. But they just ran away from them.


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## Emile.Wilson (May 13, 2009)

Rensallar said:


> How do you get another mantis to eat the doomed mantis? I have L2 Chinese mantids.. had a couple who were pretty much goners that I dangled in front of some of the bigger nymphs I have. But they just ran away from them.


they might have been overwhelmed or they might not be hungry.


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## OGIGA (May 14, 2009)

With a hole in its head, I would imagine that germs would get in and the mantis would die of infection before starving to death.


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## jameslongo (May 14, 2009)

Rensallar said:


> How do you get another mantis to eat the doomed mantis? I have L2 Chinese mantids.. had a couple who were pretty much goners that I dangled in front of some of the bigger nymphs I have. But they just ran away from them.


Emile is right. They may have been overwhelmed because of the angle that you introduced the dead to the nymph. Did you feed your nymph from below or above? Overhead would be a bit scary. I could imagine a pie being forced into my head from the sky  Else your Chinese are unnaturally wussy!


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## rensallar (May 14, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> Emile is right. They may have been overwhelmed because of the angle that you introduced the dead to the nymph. Did you feed your nymph from below or above? Overhead would be a bit scary. I could imagine a pie being forced into my head from the sky  Else your Chinese are unnaturally wussy!


Haha.. considering I was trying to give them a completely deformed mismolt that was still moving AND dangling it from above, I agree that it could be scary. It would be much bigger than just having a pie shoved in your face.. more like a 50 pound cheeseburger  

Maybe I should stick mine in front of the TV and have them watch a few MMA fights to toughen them up a little.


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## jameslongo (May 15, 2009)

Rensallar said:


> Haha.. considering I was trying to give them a completely deformed mismolt that was still moving AND dangling it from above, I agree that it could be scary. It would be much bigger than just having a pie shoved in your face.. more like a 50 pound cheeseburger  Maybe I should stick mine in front of the TV and have them watch a few MMA fights to toughen them up a little.


Shape shouldn't be a problem. You'll notice the mantid 'smell' the prey first &amp; if its edible, it'll strike.

Man, i could go for a 50pound cheeseburger right about now...


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## MantidLord (May 15, 2009)

What!!?? "Smell they're food". What evidence do you have of this? Mantids will nibble on dang near anything, and if they determine it's edible THEN they'll grab it. Entomologists have allready run numerous experiments trying to analyze prey recognition for mantids, and smell is one that I've never read about before. Unless this is what you meant as "smell", I have to strongly disagree.


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## jameslongo (May 15, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> What!!?? "Smell they're food". What evidence do you have of this? Mantids will nibble on dang near anything, and if they determine it's edible THEN they'll grab it. Entomologists have allready run numerous experiments trying to analyze prey recognition for mantids, and smell is one that I've never read about before. Unless this is what you meant as "smell", I have to strongly disagree.


Dude, what do you think those two long dangling things sticking from the top of their heads are?


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## PhilinYuma (May 15, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> What!!?? "Smell they're food". What evidence do you have of this? Mantids will nibble on dang near anything, and if they determine it's edible THEN they'll grab it. Entomologists have allready run numerous experiments trying to analyze prey recognition for mantids, and smell is one that I've never read about before. Unless this is what you meant as "smell", I have to strongly disagree.


No, Mantidlord, he didn't say "smell they're food" (or even "smell their food"), but, "You'll notice the mantid 'smell' the prey first," where the quotation marks indicate "give the appearance of smelling," a fanciful, perhaps, reference to the saccadic head movements which predominate before a strike. I may be misunderstanding you, but you appear to say that the mantis nibbles on its prey _before _it strikes. Surely the process is the other way around, strike first and then nibble the captured prey?

James: Pulled yer baby right out from under that dingo, now didn't I? Cheers, mate!


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## MantidLord (May 16, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> Dude, what do you think those two long dangling things sticking from the top of their heads are?


They're called antennae and I know what they're used for. You said "smell their food" so I had NO idea what the heck you were talking about. But for the record they don't always do this. I've had mantids strike at prey without budging they're antennae and I've even had mantids with no antennae feast on food, granted they were more unsuccessful than others. And when you say smelling, it gave the wrong impression.

@Phillinyuma: thanks for clearing that up for me. When I said they nibble their food before they grab the prey, I meant when hand feeding a scared mantis. If you notice, you can sneak the item to it's mouth, and it will nibble on the food and then grab it. I didn't mean when the mantis is actually hunting. And thanks for the grammar correction.


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## jameslongo (May 17, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> They're called antennae and I know what they're used for. You said "smell their food" so I had NO idea what the heck you were talking about. But for the record they don't always do this. I've had mantids strike at prey without budging they're antennae and I've even had mantids with no antennae feast on food, granted they were more unsuccessful than others. And when you say smelling, it gave the wrong [email protected]: thanks for clearing that up for me. When I said they nibble their food before they grab the prey, I meant when hand feeding a scared mantis. If you notice, you can sneak the item to it's mouth, and it will nibble on the food and then grab it. I didn't mean when the mantis is actually hunting. And thanks for the grammar correction.


I should give you more credit, MantidLord. I apologise. I, like you, am basing my statements on experience &amp;, as far as I can see, Australian mantids wave their antennae before their food before they strike. Although, your comment about antennae-less mantid have more difficulty seizing their prey would seem that they may actually play some part in prey detection.

Just out of curiosity, which entomological studies on prey recognition are you basing your arguments on?


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## MantidLord (May 18, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> I should give you more credit, MantidLord. I apologise. I, like you, am basing my statements on experience &amp;, as far as I can see, Australian mantids wave their antennae before their food before they strike. Although, your comment about antennae-less mantid have more difficulty seizing their prey would seem that they may actually play some part in prey detection.Just out of curiosity, which entomological studies on prey recognition are you basing your arguments on?


No prob James, I should give you more credit as well. I'm basing them off of the works performed and defined in "The Praying Mantids" which is a detailed book authored by many entomologists and scientists. I'm sure you've heard of it. Though I have seen mantids touch prey right before striking, I never knew if it were necessary or not. I guess it would be interesting to find out what role exactly it plays in food recognition/ aquisition.


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