# Christianity debates here please. criticism welcome :)



## Asa

Anyway, jmac27.

In Catholism there is more than one way to 'go to heaven'. To officially become part of our faith, there are many rituals. The simplest of which is baptism. There are 3 basic ways to get baptized. One is the baptism most people receive at birth, baptism of water. You get water poured on your forehead as a sign of purity. We believe this removes Original Sin from our souls, the sin Adam and Eve commited in the Garden of Eden. Jesus himself said to Nicodemus, one of the Pharisees at the time, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Baptism does this for us.

The 2nd way to get baptized is through Baptism of Blood. If you die a martyr's death for a just cause (when I say just, I mean just as in our own faith and in humanity's case. So a suicide mission for one faith would hardly allot as a 'just cause'.) then you would get a baptism into the Catholic Faith.

The 3rd way would be to get a Baptism of Desire. If the person who dies, was avidly seeking a true means to Heaven, and would take baptism if he understood its full meaning, then he would be baptized with the baptism of desire.

Even if you are baptized, you may or may not go to heaven. If you are baptized immediately before you die, with good intention, then all your sins will be removed.

In Christianity, sins are measured in context. As in venial and mortal sins. A venial sin might consist of mild gossiping. A mortal sin might consist of murdering or stealing a large amount of money. If you have a mortal sin when you die, then you have chosen, out of your own free will, to send yourself to heck (currently the Pope has asked from Catholic theologians and philosophers to try and come up with ideas that will explain this more fully to non-believers.) If you die with venial sins on your soul, you will not go to heck, but you will not go to Heaven either. You will go to Purgatory.

Purgatory is a state of the unknown. It has not been elaborated by the Church clearly, perhaps on purpose. If you go to purgatory, then you will have to pay the penance for your sins on earth. One of our theologians describes it as, "However strong your moral standards were on earth, they will be in Purgatory. Your moral standards will be like a castle besieged, the thicker [or stronger your moral standards are] your walls will be. There are certain prayers to release people from purgatory. At the end of time, all in purgatory will be released and sent to Heaven.

Perhaps this clears up some things. Please criticize, it doesn't offend, I like a good discussion. That goes for everyone.


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## robo mantis

In mine you don't need rituals it just strengthens your faith.


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## OGIGA

I consider myself a Christian but a lot this sounds new to me. I personally stick to what the Bible says so I allow a lot of things to be unknown. I don't like to interpolate, if you know what I mean. Anyway, the biggest issue that comes up now is, "What is the Bible? How was it put together? What gives the early church leaders the authority to decide what goes in?" and so on.


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## Asa

In the Catholic Bible there are a few differences. It has a few more books to it. Also the 10 commandments are numbered differently than yours. We believe the Church is infallible in matters of religion. If the Pope was to make a wrong rule then he would be struck dumb, or something of the kind.


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## Way.Of.The.Mantis

In my faith, called Christadelphians (brothers and sisters in Christ) there is no stupid trinity nonsense, only adult baptism and quite alot of doctrine, and everyone reads their Bible, its not just some priest making up ideas as he goes along and feeding them to an ignorant audience. The Pope is a load of rubbish, and when Jesus returns (as in Revelation and Ezekial, he will oppose Christ, naming Jesus as the anti-Christ), we all know however that the Catholic church has manipulated Christianity for years, starting with Emporer Constaintine in Rome.... :roll:


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## Asa

> In my faith, called Christadelphians (brothers and sisters in Christ) there is no stupid trinity nonsense, only adult baptism and quite alot of doctrine, and everyone reads their Bible, its not just some priest making up ideas as he goes along and feeding them to an ignorant audience. The Pope is a load of rubbish, and when Jesus returns (as in Revelation and Ezekial, he will oppose Christ, naming Jesus as the anti-Christ), we all know however that the Catholic church has manipulated Christianity for years, starting with Emporer Constaintine in Rome.... :roll:


Hardly an ignorant audience. Some of the greatest brains in the world were and are Catholic. And as making up things as they go along...it takes decades to get a new system created, all the while under intense scrutiny for heresy.

How can the Catholic Church manipulate Christianity, if Christianity sprang from the Catholic Church?


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## OGIGA

Quick question: Why do Catholics say that Christianity came from the Catholic church? As far as I know it, anybody who follows Christ is Christian (Christ follower) and I'm inclined to believe that people followed Christ ever since he started preaching. It makes a lot more sense if someone said that Christianity came from Judaism though.


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## Asa

> Quick question: Why do Catholics say that Christianity came from the Catholic church? As far as I know it, anybody who follows Christ is Christian (Christ follower) and I'm inclined to believe that people followed Christ ever since he started preaching. It makes a lot more sense if someone said that Christianity came from Judaism though.


Earlier in the world, if you were a Catholic, you were a Christian. There were no Lutherans or Baptists. Only Catholic Christians. Nowadays, you can be a Lutheran Christian, or a Baptist Christian, without being Catholic. The Church was one until its split up.

Christianity didn't exactly sprout from Judaism, as is completely on a different track. Jews believe that the Saviour has not yet come. In a way, you could say we have our roots in Judaism.

Still, Christ even subtly mocked the Jews for their upheld traditions.


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## Butterfly

wow, way too deep of a conversation for my sleepy pre birthday partying self today.


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## colddigger

[SIZE=12pt]I be waitin'[/SIZE]

they be hatin'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bAN7Ts0xBo


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## Ian

> [SIZE=12pt]I be waitin'[/SIZE]
> 
> they be hatin'
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bAN7Ts0xBo


Yes...I definitely agree


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## hibiscusmile

Asa wrote about Purgatory. Where do You find the work Purgatory in the Bible?


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## Asa

> Asa wrote about Purgatory. Where do You find the work Purgatory in the Bible?


Depends if you use the Catholic Bible or the Protestant. The Catholic Bible has the word Purgatory. St. Paul even talks about it. Catholics believe that their is more to the faith than the Bible.


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## colddigger

> [SIZE=12pt]I be waitin'[/SIZE]
> 
> they be hatin'
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bAN7Ts0xBo


hahaha!

my image got changed

it's still good though  :lol:


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## hibiscusmile

where did Paul talk about it, need reference please.


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## Asa

I'll look it up. Expect it to take awhile :lol:


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## Asa

Just considered something, you aren't Catholic are you?


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## hibiscusmile

No offence Asa but, you say that in your faith there are many rituals, One, being baptised, Being baptised was an outward sign that you were a follower of Christ (*2nd in the trinity*) and after Christ was gone he would send the Comforter to them that they would not be alone ( St John: 14:16 to 26, verse 26 speaks of the Holy Ghost, *the 3rd in the trinity*) [/b " But the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." You say the Catholics believe there is more than one way to heaven... The Holy Bible in John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him: Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. No where does it state that there is another way to Heaven, John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. also see John 2:1 My little children, these things I write unto you, that you sin not, and if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father,(*1st in the trintiy)[/**b] Jesus Christ the righteous. This is the part that tells me I am to talk to Jesus when I sin, not man. You can confess your sins to men, James: 5.16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.*

*I am reading out of the Kings James version. I have at hand any number of Bibles from many different versions including the Jeromes Latin Transalation Vulgate, The American Standard, La Santa Bibilca, *

*Darby's Translation, Youngs Literal Bible Tran., Weymouths NT in Modern Speech, New Kings James, New International version, The New Revised Standard Version and the New Revised Standard version with the Apocrypha, Living Bible, Micro Bible, Morris Literal Translation of Hebrew &amp; Greek, New American Bible with Apocrypha, New Jerusalem Bible with Apocrypha ... and many nore...*

*One thing we must remember, that man, (humans) like to add things that make life easier for them, the shortest way to get somewhere is point to point or as the crow flies. Man does not want the easy way (being born again) because that would mean giving up their sins, Jesus told the woman who was brought to him by the scribes &amp; pharisee in John 8:11 **go &amp; sin no more. ** He forgave her of her adulterest ways, but she was warned not to do it again.*

*Christians, is as Ogiga states: Christians are followers of Christ, hence the word **Christ**ian comes from the word CHRIST.*

*Oh one more thing, Catholics were not the first Christians. No where in the Bible is the word Catholics, Lutherans, Protestant or otherwise. These are man made name given to sects of different faiths.*

*ps, the referance to 1st 2nd 3rd is for the "stupid trinity" indication by someone else. *

*The last book Revelations 22: 18 &amp; 19 say For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:*

*19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and *_*from*_* the things which are written in this book.*


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## Asa

> No offence Asa but, you say that in your faith there are many rituals, One, being baptised, Being baptised was an outward sign that you were a follower of Christ (*2nd in the trinity*) and after Christ was gone he would send the Comforter to them that they would not be alone ( St John: 14:16 to 26, verse 26 speaks of the Holy Ghost, [b*](the 3rd in the trinity) *[/b ]But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father (1st in the trinity)[/u] will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.)[/color] You say the catholics believe there is more than one way to heaven,,, The Holy Bible in John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him: Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. No where does it state that there is another way to Heaven, John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. also see John 2:1 My little children, these things I write unto you, that you sin not, and if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. This is the part that tells me I am to talk to Jesus when I sin, not man. You can confess your sins to men, James: 5.16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.I am reading out of the Kings James version. I have at hand any number of Bibles from many different versions including the Jeromes Latin Transalation Vulgate, The American Standard, La Santa Bibilca,
> 
> Darby's Translation, Youngs Literal Bible Tran., Weymouths NT in Modern Speech, New Kings James, New International version, The New Revised Standard Version and the New Revised Standard version with the Apocrypha, Living Bible, Micro Bible, Morris Literal Translation of Hebrew &amp; Greek, New American Bible with Apocrypha, New Jerusalem Bible with Apocrypha ... and many nore...
> 
> One thing we must remember, that man, (humans) like to add things that make life easier for them, the shortest way to get somewhere is point to point or as the crow flies. Man does not want the easy way (being born again) because that would mean giving up their sins, Jesus told the woman who was brought to him by the scribes &amp; pharisee in John 8:11 go &amp; sin no more.  He forgave her of her adulterest ways, but she was warned not to do it again.
> 
> Christians, is as Ogiga states: Christians are followers of Christ, hence the word Christian comes from the word CHRIST.
> 
> Oh one more thing, Catholics were not the first Christians. No where in the Bible is the word Catholics, Lutherans, Protestant or otherwise. These are man made name given to sects of different faiths.
> 
> ps, the referance to 1st 2nd 3rd is for the "stupid trinity" indication by someone else.
> 
> The last book Revelations 22: 18 &amp; 19 say For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
> 
> 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and _from_ the things which are written in this book.


Why shouldn't there be more than one way to heaven? To get to heaven is to believe in God. If a man followed his own moral standards as well as he could, without seeing the light of Jesus, then I see no reason he should not go to heaven.

As to saying your sins to a priest, Jesus says to the Apostles in the Bible, "That whoevers sins you forgive are forgiven, whoevers sins you retain, are retained." thus giving the Apostles the role of the first Bishops.

What I meant by 'First Christians' that they were the first man named 'Christians'. So technically they were the first 'Christians'.


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## hibiscusmile

why shouldn't there be more than one way to heaven? Well because God makes up the rules, and he who holds all the air we breath gets to make those rules. :shock:

No I am not Catholic, but went to their church for a time, also I have a young man who is a youth pastor for a lutheran church come from his whole life in a Catholic church looking for another way. Many catholics I know including my sister in law want to know more than the church is willing to give. They feel they have spent most of thier lives listing to dialic they could not understand and wanted to read the Bible for themselves. I am a lot older and u must remember that in my younger days the Priest spoke latin for Bible reading and no one understood what they were saying, now they realise that people want more and are not fulfilled in their souls. So now some of the churches (here in Ohio at least) will raise their hands and Praise God and even relent to being born again.!


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## hibiscusmile

> Asa wrote about Purgatory. Where do You find the work Purgatory in the Bible?
> 
> 
> 
> Depends if you use the Catholic Bible or the Protestant. The Catholic Bible has the word Purgatory. St. Paul even talks about it. Catholics believe that their is more to the faith than the Bible.
Click to expand...

2nd Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. The Bible is Gods Holy Word, read Revelation 22:18, 19 again, . It doesn't matter what we want, or what the Catholics believe, if they do not believe in what the Creator of the universe said then no matter how much they denie it or want something else, it cannot be so. It is what it is.


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## colddigger

by first Christians i think it is meant to mean

_First Christian Church_

and then everything branched off of it


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## OGIGA

> The Bible is Gods Holy Word


I'm not trying to disagree with you, but when the people who wrote "word" in the Bible, I don't really have a reason to think that they are referring to the Bible that we know today. I know it's the popular belief today that word=Bible, but what is the reason for that?

I just know that the people who wrote any part of the Bible (that we know of today) did not have what we have. Even when Paul was alive, he didn't have a publication of the Gospel accounts. In Revelations, I believe "this book" refers to what John wrote recorded in the book of Revelations. "Word" (_logos _and _rama _in Greek) looks like it refers to the message, teaching, or what somebody actually said.


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## Asa

> why shouldn't there be more than one way to heaven? Well because God makes up the rules, and he who holds all the air we breath gets to make those rules. :shock: No I am not Catholic, but went to their church for a time, also I have a young man who is a youth pastor for a lutheran church come from his whole life in a Catholic church looking for another way. Many catholics I know including my sister in law want to know more than the church is willing to give. They feel they have spent most of thier lives listing to dialic they could not understand and wanted to read the Bible for themselves. I am a lot older and u must remember that in my younger days the Priest spoke latin for Bible reading and no one understood what they were saying, now they realise that people want more and are not fulfilled in their souls. So now some of the churches (here in Ohio at least) will raise their hands and Praise God and even relent to being born again.!


Many Catholic Churches still use Latin.

If a savage in the wilderness died without ever knowing God, do you think he deserves to go to heck?


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## OGIGA

> Many Catholic Churches still use Latin.If a savage in the wilderness died without ever knowing God, do you think he deserves to go to heck?


Technically, we all deserve to go to heck in the first place. If our name is not found in the "book of life", we'll be thrown into the lake of fire (I suppose we call this heck) (Revelations 20:15). How do people get their names into that book? Christians believe you can through only Jesus' atonement for us.

I don't know the ins and outs of Catholicism, so can you tell me what Catholics believe gets people into heaven or the book of life?


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## hibiscusmile

> The Bible is Gods Holy Word
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to disagree with you, but when the people who wrote "word" in the Bible, I don't really have a reason to think that they are referring to the Bible that we know today. I know it's the popular belief today that word=Bible, but what is the reason for that?
> 
> I just know that the people who wrote any part of the Bible (that we know of today) did not have what we have. Even when Paul was alive, he didn't have a publication of the Gospel accounts. In Revelations, I believe "this book" refers to what John wrote recorded in the book of Revelations. "Word" (_logos _and _rama _in Greek) looks like it refers to the message, teaching, or what somebody actually said.
Click to expand...

Sure Paul had referance of the teachings. Most of the Old testament was available to the New Testament writers. And the Bible we use today is still the Bible we had back then, The 5 books of Moses called the Pentateuch were available and even jesus taught from the Old Test.

To sum it all up, If God created the universe, man, light, night, air, water, trees, leaves, bugs and so forth, then why would anyone think that He would not have wrote what He wanted in His Biblia? In Matthew 21:42 it says: Have you never read the Scrptures? Plural! and in Mark 12:10 Has the sigular, referring to the paticular text quoted, "haven't you read this scripture? 2nd Timothy 3:15 speaks of "the Sacred writings" and the next verse says, "All Scripture is God-breathed". The men who wrote and recorded the Bible we have today is quite a history lesson. The Canon of the Old Testament by R.T. Beckwith states that" the term "canon" is borrowed from Greek, in which Kanon means a rule- a standard for measurement. With respect to the Bible, it speaks of those books that met the standard and therefore were worthy of inclusion. Since the 4th century Kanon has been used by Christians to denote an Authoritative list of the books belonging to the Old Testament or new Testament.


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## hibiscusmile

I really think he already did, baptisium! To be in the book of life you have to accept Jesus as Lord and ask for forgivness. In Revelation 3:20 Jesus says "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock, If any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him and sup with him, and he with Me. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in my throne, even as I overcame and sat down with my Father in His throne


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## colddigger

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/comsten

this is high relevent

[SIZE=8pt]i don't even know what that means[/SIZE]

after seeing this beautiful video, i came to peace with myself and the universe, and considering i am the universe, that seems pretty important!


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## OGIGA

> Sure Paul had referance of the teachings. Most of the Old testament was available to the New Testament writers. And the Bible we use today is still the Bible we had back then, The 5 books of Moses called the Pentateuch were available and even jesus taught from the Old Test.To sum it all up, If God created the universe, man, light, night, air, water, trees, leaves, bugs and so forth, then why would anyone think that He would not have wrote what He wanted in His Biblia? In Matthew 21:42 it says: Have you never read the Scrptures? Plural! and in Mark 12:10 Has the sigular, referring to the paticular text quoted, "haven't you read this scripture? 2nd Timothy 3:15 speaks of "the Sacred writings" and the next verse says, "All Scripture is God-breathed". The men who wrote and recorded the Bible we have today is quite a history lesson. The Canon of the Old Testament by R.T. Beckwith states that" the term "canon" is borrowed from Greek, in which Kanon means a rule- a standard for measurement. With respect to the Bible, it speaks of those books that met the standard and therefore were worthy of inclusion. Since the 4th century Kanon has been used by Christians to denote an Authoritative list of the books belonging to the Old Testament or new Testament.


To answer "why would anyone think that He would not have wrote what He wanted in His Biblia?" I would have to say that different people have put together their holy scriptures together differently. Even the Christian and Catholic texts differ. And then there's Islam's and Judaism's texts too. Doesn't everybody think their scriptures are the "right ones"? I've heard the reasoning that God made the correct collection of scriptures into the Bible. I can't really buy that. God let a lot of bad things happen in this world too. Just imagine if instead of the Holy Bible (the one with 66 books) being the most popular, a different collection of texts was most popular. Yikes!

Repeatedly in the New Testament, I've seen that Scripture/scripture referring to the Old Testament, including the Torah (you call it the Pentateuch) and a lot of other books. When Paul (or pseudo-Paul writers) wrote what became books in the New Testament, they didn't have in mind, "This is going to be copied and preserved for thousands of years." He/they were addressing specific issues to specific people at that time. You can find lots of direct answers to questions, very personal remarks, and very personal requests (like 2 Tim. 4:13). We just happened to find a lot of Paul's responses useful to us today. Therefore, I would not say that Paul and pseudo-Paul writers intended for what they wrote to be part of what they referred to as Scripture(s).

Moving along, I don't think we should make word or Word equivalent to scripture(s) or Scripture(s). Most of the Christians I know treat all of these terms as if they are interchangeable, but I don't think it's a good idea. The way we understand these terms make us interpret what we read differently. _The people who wrote the Holy Bible did not use those terms interchangeably so in order to understand what they wrote, we should understand the terms the way that they understood them_, at least while we're reading what they wrote (even if it's translated). This is basically the reason why I wouldn't interpret Revelations 22:18 the same way you do/did. (I actually used to think word/Word/Scripture(s)/scripture(s) all mean exactly the Holy Bible with the 66 books. :? )


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## hibiscusmile

I totaly agree with all u said except the word or Word part. As I said before, God all knowing and all powerful had to put his WORDS somewhere, and the Bible to my understanding is where He put them, As a guide for those seeking Him and His ways. With Adam and Eve, he was able to just speak to them, but after man gave into sin, the verbal communication did not last long, Now Moses spoke to God and God spoke to Moses and He did with others we read about, but that was all before Jesus and the New Testament. The old testament kept us under the Law, The New Testament gave us Grace. But I degress, God only has to wave His hand so to speak and erase anything not of Him out of the Bible, mans minds and thoughts. He gave us the Bible, as in St. John 1: thru 18, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by Him: and without Him was not any thing made that was made. 4. In Him was life: and the life was the light of men. 14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His Glory, (the Glory as of the only Begotton of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 17. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

And yes everyone thinks their scriptures are the right ones, but in your heart of hearts in the quiet of the day, if you seek to know, the True Living God will answer you and you will know.

The Bible speaks to those who would believe a lie and every wind and doctrin that comes along. That is why we must learn for ourselves, because Satan would decieve the very elect if allowed to do so. (see St. John 1: 6 to 10) 9. That was the true light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

SEE 2nd Thessalonians 2: 1 thru 17 (11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. 12. That they all might be dammed who believe not the truth, but have pleasure in unrighteousness.

So you see there may be many books that proclaim the Lords Words, but in truth there is only one, which one, I do not have the authority to say as I have not read every one of them, but I do know in my heart of hearts that he leads me where I can follow Him.


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## Asa

Yes we all deserve to go to heck, but do you think our merciful God would allow that? Why did he die on the Cross for us? To save us from that fate. With God, no things are an accident, so even that savage must have some road to Salvation. That would be through Baptism of Desire.

For an Islamic terrorist, trying to 'defend' his faith, should he go to heck? All we know is that somewhere in his life he had an opportunity to change. Remember that God would not give us something that we could not do. There would not be any purpose creating beings that no matter what would go to heck.


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## Rick

> Yes we all deserve to go to heck, but do you think our merciful God would allow that? Why did he die on the Cross for us? To save us from that fate. With God, no things are an accident, so even that savage must have some road to Salvation. That would be through Baptism of Desire.For an Islamic terrorist, trying to 'defend' his faith, should he go to heck? All we know is that somewhere in his life he had an opportunity to change. Remember that God would not give us something that we could not do. There would not be any purpose creating beings that no matter what would go to heck.


Do you people actually believe this stuff? Not trying to ruffle any feathers but since this thread was titled as a debate I will debate it a different way. I actually don't care what anyone's beliefs are but mine are different.


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## Asa

One person out of three believes this 'stuff', or something similiar.


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## hibiscusmile

Thats good, every one should have his own beliefs, because each person, good or bad as most say, are different in their own way, like a snowflake, no two are the same, as so people are no different, we all live and breath, but are still different. And the old saying I so like to repeat " different strokes for different folks".


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## hibiscusmile

> Yes we all deserve to go to heck, but do you think our merciful God would allow that? Why did he die on the Cross for us? To save us from that fate. With God, no things are an accident, so even that savage must have some road to Salvation. That would be through Baptism of Desire.For an Islamic terrorist, trying to 'defend' his faith, should he go to heck? All we know is that somewhere in his life he had an opportunity to change. Remember that God would not give us something that we could not do. There would not be any purpose creating beings that no matter what would go to heck.


No God did not die on the cross so that we could go to heck. He took on all the sins of the world so that we could be saved. And that should show his MERCY. He does not decree that we go to heck, that is our own choice. Just as Adam and Eve sinned by their free will, so do we. BUT we can change even as the savage or terrorist can change. It is call choice. Make the choice, God sat out the standards and we have the free choice to hear or not to hear. Did you read what I wrote earlier about how the savage would hear God? The Bible says that in Romans 14:11For it is written, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. the word here is EVERY. so if EVERY means EVERY, not like Clinton definition, but EVERY then the savage will hear Him and know that He is Lord. He can with his free will / choice turn away if he so desires.


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## Asa

> Yes we all deserve to go to heck, but do you think our merciful God would allow that? Why did he die on the Cross for us? To save us from that fate. With God, no things are an accident, so even that savage must have some road to Salvation. That would be through Baptism of Desire.For an Islamic terrorist, trying to 'defend' his faith, should he go to heck? All we know is that somewhere in his life he had an opportunity to change. Remember that God would not give us something that we could not do. There would not be any purpose creating beings that no matter what would go to heck.
> 
> 
> 
> No God did not die on the cross so that we could go to heck. He took on all the sins of the world so that we could be saved. And that should show his MERCY. He does not decree that we go to heck, that is our own choice. Just as Adam and Eve sinned by their free will, so do we. BUT we can change even as the savage or terrorist can change. It is call choice. Make the choice, God sat out the standards and we have the free choice to hear or not to hear. Did you read what I wrote earlier about how the savage would hear God? The Bible says that in Romans 14:11For it is written, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. the word here is EVERY. so if EVERY means EVERY, not like Clinton definition, but EVERY then the savage will hear Him and know that He is Lord. He can with his free will / choice turn away if he so desires.
Click to expand...

Huh? Maybe we had a misunderstanding, but that's what I've been trying to say. Our faiths are so alike.


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## hibiscusmile

Yes they are, the really only thing that matters is that We believe on the Son, Jesus Christ is Lord, the rest is pretty well mute!


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## bubforever

The way i see it all forms of Christianity are the same. I know that each one has something a bit different that it does but in the end we believe in Jesus, God, and being a good person and having faith lead to heaven. I see no reason for there to be arguements over which one is better or anything.


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## Asa

> The way i see it all forms of Christianity are the same. I know that each one has something a bit different that it does but in the end we believe in Jesus, God, and being a good person and having faith lead to heaven. I see no reason for there to be arguements over which one is better or anything.


Not arguements, friendly debates. :wink:

It just helps to get the other point of view.


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## hibiscusmile

:lol: that's right just a debate, no arguing here either,


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## Asa

Pope Benedict the XII has restored the latin mass  Now all Catholics will have to ask before they use an english mass.


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