# Surprise Ootheca! Panic!



## Tman (Nov 4, 2010)

I caught my praying mantis in early October here in MN. I saved her from a certain death situation at where I work, a Lowes store. I had thought she wasn't pregnant because she wasn't fat at all. Now it seems within the past day she laid her ootheca on the ventilated top of the cage! By the way she would have died from the frost before she could have laid it so don't blame me for catching her.

I need to figure out what I am supposed to do here. First off I need to know how much time I have until they hatch. I know that my current cage's housing would not contain them. Also, I need to know whether I can somehow remove the ootheca from the cage top without harming it and put it in a proper cage, or maybe stage it outside if it isn't too late.

Also, I have no idea how to feed the little guys once they hatch as I hear they need small food like gnats and stuff. All I can get are crickets which are too big.

I am in panic mode here and desperately need some help!


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## GreenOasis (Nov 4, 2010)

CALM DOWN! You will get all the help you need and more here, Buddy...you've come to the right place!  (And no one here will judge you for "saving" a wild-caught mantis!)

First of all, you need to determine what kind of mantis you have...If you live in Minnesota (I think that's what that says!), then it's likely a species whose ooth will need a diapause. Meaning, give the egg case a couple days to harden &amp; then just peel it off of the screen (or whatever)...they are incredibly tough, so it should be no problem. Then, put it in a deli cup or baggie with a few (tiny) holes in it and put it in the veggie drawer of your fridge (might want to write the date on it, lest you forget!). You'll need to simulate winter, so that means keeping it in the fridge for a period of time, like 6-8 weeks or more. Then, you'll take it out and (presumably) start misting it on a daily basis while keeping it at room temp. It will take a few more weeks to hatch out. These are GENERAL instructions, only, though....as I said, you need to determine what species you have first &amp; go from there! There may be slight differences or additions to what I've said, based on which species you have, but I wanted to give you an idea of what you're in for.

I hope that helps at least a bit to keep you calm about the whole thing! Oh, and just an FYI, your female may not be done laying since you saved her from certain death, so I hope you're still feeding her!  

And yes, once you (eventually) hatch out that ooth, you'll need a fruit fly culture (get flightless) to feed the babies, but...when that time comes, there are plenty of folks out here who will send you one at the drop of a hat! (Self included.)

Good luck!

-Carey Kurtz-


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## GreenOasis (Nov 4, 2010)

OH...(duh)...I guess I should tell you that you should take a pic of her (and her ooth) and post them on here...you'll have plenty of folks to tell you what species you have.  

-Carey Kurtz-


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## Tman (Nov 4, 2010)

GreenOasis said:


> OH...(duh)...I guess I should tell you that you should take a pic of her (and her ooth) and post them on here...you'll have plenty of folks to tell you what species you have.
> 
> -Carey Kurtz-


Since it is from Minnesota would it be a good idea to just stage it outside over the winter? Of course I would need to know what to do to help it survive. Praying mantids would be great for my mom's flower garden because she is often troubled by bugs they would find quite tasty. But maybe I should give raising them myself a shot. Maybe keep one or two and release the rest at the right time.

So once I figure out what kind it is I will then figure out when and for how long to keep it cold, and then I need to figure out housing and feeding.

I will get pics as soon as I have another person around to take the pics while I hold her so you all can get a good look, and while holding her I can take off the lid of the cage to get a good pic of the ootheca too.


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## GreenOasis (Nov 4, 2010)

I'm a "mother hen" by nature, so I like to have them hatch under my watchful eye. You can keep them outside if you want, though, but if you keep them in an enclosure outdoors, you'll have to go out &amp; check &amp; mist it every day, so...depending where you choose to "shelter" it, it can be a pain. And you can certainly choose to keep the oothecae, hatch it, &amp; just release whichever ones you don't want to keep. I've heard of a few people on this forum that do things like that (native species only, of course!) to help build local populations. I would do that myself, actually.

-Carey Kurtz-


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## Jesskb (Nov 4, 2010)

Just make sure you put the ooth in the fridge or outside pretty soon (wait a few days so it dries and you can remove it properly) . If you wait too long, they'll hatch and you'll have babies all over the place! (they don't HAVE to have a diapause. Which is something I didn't know &lt;_&lt; ) I just made that mistake. The mantis id should be pretty easy, it will probably be one of two species. If the mantis is large and has a green stripe down the side of the body then it's a Chinese. The bottom of the ooth will be flatish too if it's Chinese. Look on the inside of her raptoral arms, if there's a white circle surrounded by black, then it's a European.


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## Tman (Nov 4, 2010)

Jesskb said:


> Just make sure you put the ooth in the fridge or outside pretty soon (wait a few days so it dries and you can remove it properly) . If you wait too long, they'll hatch and you'll have babies all over the place! (they don't HAVE to have a diapause. Which is something I didn't know &lt;_&lt; ) I just made that mistake. The mantis id should be pretty easy, it will probably be one of two species. If the mantis is large and has a green stripe down the side of the body then it's a Chinese. The bottom of the ooth will be flatish too if it's Chinese. Look on the inside of her raptoral arms, if there's a white circle surrounded by black, then it's a European.


She is about 4-6 inches long I think. No stripe down the side and I didn't see any white circle surrounded by black on her arms. Honestly she is pretty plain. All green with a yellowish underbelly on her abdomen.

Her ootheca is kind of shaped like a rounded Isosceles Triangle with it mounded up in like 3 layers.


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## Pet Duck Boy (Nov 4, 2010)

I'm no expert, but chinese mantids can be both brown and lime green. Also keep in mind that female mantids will lay ooths whether fertile or not, just like a chicken. I've been told wild-caught mantids are almost always fertile, though. Are mantids common in your area? I have a wild-caught female bark mantis and I can only hope she is fertile.


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## Tman (Nov 4, 2010)

Myrmecologist said:


> I'm no expert, but chinese mantids can be both brown and lime green. Also keep in mind that female mantids will lay ooths whether fertile or not, just like a chicken. I've been told wild-caught mantids are almost always fertile, though. Are mantids common in your area? I have a wild-caught female bark mantis and I can only hope she is fertile.


I am not sure how common they are but I know they exist around here. The thing is I was never really looking for them and they hide well.

There is the off chance that she stowed away on a plant that came on a truck to my store, but that would mean she would have had to get through the automatic sliding doors because all the plants we had were indoor house plants at that time, and she was found outside in the garden center on a cart surrounded by a sea of concrete.

I will get a picture up later tonight hopefully. The ootheca has been there at least a day, maybe 2, and it is already hardened. I mist the cage about once or twice a day. It is one of those plastic cages with a top that is all ventilated. Rather common in pet stores. The bottom is covered in fine hermit crab gravel which is practically sand. I was told not to worry too much about substrate with her. Plus, she only comes down to the ground to hunt otherwise she is always upside down lol.

I have no greenery in her cage as everything is dead outside, the houseplants have been sprayed with bug killer, and she never hid in the greenery I had had in there and it actually hindered her hunting success.

We average about 50% humidity inside right now which I am guessing is too little. She is also in a south facing window in the sun fyi. She likes to soak up the sun, and it helps keep the cage warm in a house that gets down to about 64 degrees at night, and 67-68 in the day.


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## Jesskb (Nov 4, 2010)

True, chinese can be green (although the green variation seems to be rarer). Even if it is a green chinese though, it will have a lighter green stripe down the side. Are you in northern MN or southern?


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## Tman (Nov 4, 2010)

Jesskb said:


> True, chinese can be green (although the green variation seems to be rarer). Even if it is a green chinese though, it will have a lighter green stripe down the side. Are you in northern MN or southern?


About the middle. An hour north of the Twin Cities


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## hibiscusmile (Nov 4, 2010)

U r doing fine with her, if it is big as you say, it is chinese, I would keep her ooth in fridge till spring misting about three times a week, unless of course You want to hatch it, then just put in a nice insect cup, n in about 4 to 6 weeks it will hatch!


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## MantidLord (Nov 4, 2010)

What Rebecca said. Because Chinese don't need a diapause.


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## Tman (Nov 4, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> U r doing fine with her, if it is big as you say, it is chinese, I would keep her ooth in fridge till spring misting about three times a week, unless of course You want to hatch it, then just put in a nice insect cup, n in about 4 to 6 weeks it will hatch!


So would I then super glue it to the lid of the container or just set it in the container? Does the container need to be ventilated or sealed?

I plan to hatch it and once they are old enough to survive alright outside I plan to release most of them. So when would be a good time to hatch them for that? I want to put the extra mantids to use in my mom's garden(s) so I would think I should probably wait until spring? The only thing I am worried about is forgetting to mist it over the several months it would be in there.

Update: After you said she is probably Chinese due to her size I took another look at her in better lighting and yes she does have a lighter green stripe on either side of her. So she is a Chinese.


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## GreenOasis (Nov 4, 2010)

You could always do a google image search for all these potential species that are being thrown at you.  I grew up with the Chinese variety in Northwest Indiana, so I was thrown for a loop with the wild girl we had here last year! Turned out, she was a Carolina mantis...they are about 3-4" long, can be either brown or green, brown seems to be more common, though, they're pretty plain-looking...and I think they DO need a diapause...Chinese DON'T...which is why I said you might want to verify your species first. Don't want to accidentally kill the eggs!

From what I've read out here, you can use a low-temp glue gun to glue the ooth to the fabric lid of a deli cup (look at Rebecca's site, Mantisplace.com, to see what these "insect deli cups" are.)...flat side of the ooth upward, toward the lid &amp; You could also put some moist "orchid" moss in the bottom of the cup, to hold humidity better. I do that with all my nymphs now. If you work at Lowe's, you should know where the orchid moss is (that's where I get mine!)  Just be sure to get the more expensive light-colored one...regular "sphagnum" moss always molds on me!  

Good luck!

-Carey Kurtz-


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## Tman (Nov 4, 2010)

GreenOasis said:


> You could always do a google image search for all these potential species that are being thrown at you.  I grew up with the Chinese variety in Northwest Indiana, so I was thrown for a loop with the wild girl we had here last year! Turned out, she was a Carolina mantis...they are about 3-4" long, can be either brown or green, brown seems to be more common, though, they're pretty plain-looking...and I think they DO need a diapause...Chinese DON'T...which is why I said you might want to verify your species first. Don't want to accidentally kill the eggs!
> 
> From what I've read out here, you can use a low-temp glue gun to glue the ooth to the fabric lid of a deli cup (look at Rebecca's site, Mantisplace.com, to see what these "insect deli cups" are.)...flat side of the ooth upward, toward the lid &amp; You could also put some moist "orchid" moss in the bottom of the cup, to hold humidity better. I do that with all my nymphs now. If you work at Lowe's, you should know where the orchid moss is (that's where I get mine!)  Just be sure to get the more expensive light-colored one...regular "sphagnum" moss always molds on me!
> 
> ...


But someone else stated that I could still give them a diapause. I would imagine it would be alright seeing as they live in Minnesota with it's frigid winters

I also realized that I may have a bit of a placement issue. I have the kind of cage I have now heard is known as a "critter keeper" and she laid her eggs on the lid, but on the part that is angled along the edge. So I am guessing I will have to glue it to a stick and mount the stick at the same angle?

Also I think i could construct a good ootheca container with what I know now. I will probably use a gladware container and cut a large portion of the lid out and replace it with the proper cloth or fine mesh. I will put the moss you mentioned in the bottom. I could hang the stick at the proper angle by tying a string to either end and affixing each end to the plastic lid at either edge of the cloth covered opening.

Then I would just need to figure out how often I need to wet the moss and make sure it stays safe in the fridge and doesn't get tipped or something. My parents are alright with this and are actually kind of excited, but I told them it could be unfertilized so they don't get their hopes up.

when spring starts coming around then I will need to address housing and feeding the nymphs, but for now I just need to focus on housing and refrigerating the ootheca.


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## hierodula (Nov 4, 2010)

If u want to remove the ooth from the screen spray the part of the ooth thats attatched to the screen w/ water, and gently tug it off. Thats what I do w/ my ooths and they come off. If it doesnt come off at forst, spray a little more water and try again.


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## Tman (Nov 4, 2010)

I did a google image search for Chinese mantis and they look just like the one I have. So she is a Chinese.


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## LauraMG (Nov 4, 2010)

I love the little stripes that Chinese have on their "noses". :lol: Their ootheca are HUGE too! Smallest I've seen is about the size of a quarter around, and they usually hatch in high numbers so be prepared! The only thing that concerned me was about was the spot you described. If you could post a pic we can get you a definite ID.


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## Tman (Nov 4, 2010)

Laura G said:


> I love the little stripes that Chinese have on their "noses". :lol: Their ootheca are HUGE too! Smallest I've seen is about the size of a quarter around, and they usually hatch in high numbers so be prepared! The only thing that concerned me was about was the spot you described. If you could post a pic we can get you a definite ID.


She does not have a spot. Someone asked me if she had a certain spot to see if it is a european and I told them she does not. you must have gotten confused.


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## LauraMG (Nov 4, 2010)

Tman said:


> She does not have a spot. Someone asked me if she had a certain spot to see if it is a european and I told them she does not. you must have gotten confused.


Oops! :wacko: :blink: Sorry!


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 5, 2010)

Kova

Tman:

Somewhere above, you say,"But someone else stated that I could still give them a diapause. I would imagine it would be alright seeing as they live in Minnesota with it's frigid winters" This a very common but mistaken idea of what diapause is. Since an understanding of the process improves our husbandry, this may help:

Diapause is a strategy for protecting some insects at a vulnerable period of their lives. It can help pupae overwinter in cold winters, reduce the growth of some larvae, like some grasshopper nymphs, in the dry period before the rains, when the grass withers. In mantids, it occurs in those that habitually overwinter as ooths in a freezing or near freezing environment. As the days grow shorter (reduced photoperiod) the female develops a hormone (diapause hormone, that was easy) from her suboesophageal ganglion (can't win 'em all) that affects the development of the eggs after they are laid. The eggs have below average amount of glycogen (stored sugar) and more sorbitol that acts as antifreeze and also delays development. 

Effectively, the eggs are in suspended animation until the temperature drops into the F30s. This breaks the diapause (the sorbitol and glycerol are converted to glycogen, among other changes), _*but*_ the cold temperature also slows down the eggs' metabolism (quiescence) and they remain in the gastrulation stage until the warm weather returns.

So: 

The only diapausing mantis that I can think of in the hobby, offhand, is Mantis religiosa. Older female nymphs should be exposed to a gradually reduced photoperiod if you want to stimulate diapause. It must be broken, though by a period (perhaps a month) either outside or in the fridge, or the eggs won't develop.

Ooths of tropical species and those that live along the southern border of the US where it never freezes. Should be left at room temperature.

Ooths of US mantids that normally live in freezing temperatures during the winter can either be hatched at room temperature, or given a period of quiescence in the 'fridge'. Some folks claim that such ooths will yield weak and sickly nymphs if allowed to hatch at room temperature. Such ooths can also be allowed to overwinter outside.


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## GreenOasis (Nov 5, 2010)

You probably don't need to worry TOO much about the angle, just so long as the "bumpy" parts are facing down (that's where the eggs are and that's where the nymphs will come out, using gravity to help them.) And, I'm no expert by any means, but I don't think they'll need all that humidity while they're being refrigerated...you can probably leave the moss out until you're ready to actually hatch them.

Oh, and no, Chinese don't need to have a diapause, but it won't hurt either! Sorry about the confusion. (But...diapause will give you some time to get prepared for the little ones, as I hear that Chinese tend to have LOTS of babies!) If you DO end up with a lot more than expected, you can always message me! I'll take a few...or trade for the aforementioned fruit fly culture you'll be needing!   

-Carey Kurtz-


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## GreenOasis (Nov 5, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> Kova
> 
> Tman:
> 
> ...


HUNH...! Like I said, learn something new here everyday! I just kinda' thought that "diapause" was like the Mantid term for "brumate" or "hibernate"....Gotta' love the English language....so precise!

Thanks for the enlightenment...now I know just a little bit more about how to take care of my younguns!  

-Carey Kurtz-


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## Tman (Nov 5, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> Kova
> 
> Tman:
> 
> ...


So This all means I can refrigerate her ootheca until spring?

Also, she does experience reduced photoperiods because she is in a south facing windowsill. I have a outcropping on an outer wall of my house with 3 windows in it, 2 at an angle (I forget what you call this structure) She doesn't get extra light because the place she is in doesn't usually have the lights on at night.

So I will do as I stated before and make the enclosure I mentioned and spray the moss 3 times a week, right?

And then in spring I will take it out and set it up to hatch.


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## GreenOasis (Nov 5, 2010)

Sounds like you'll do fine, however you choose to do it!  

-Carey Kurtz-


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## Tman (Nov 8, 2010)

I made the proper container and now have the ootheca in the fridge. I will have to make sure to mist it often enough now. I may have another ootheca on the way as she has quite an appetite. 3 cricket over last night, and she is hunting the 2 I just put in there.

I think the ootheca she laid sounds small from what I hear. It was a little over the size of a quarter in diameter. Probably because I was feeding her like a non-pregnant adult.


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## chenchen21621 (Nov 9, 2010)

I will get pics as soon as I have another person around to take the pics while I hold her so you all can get a good look, and while holding her I can take off the lid of the cage to get a good pic of the ootheca too. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:







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## PhilinYuma (Nov 10, 2010)

Tman said:


> I made the proper container and now have the ootheca in the fridge. I will have to make sure to mist it often enough now. I may have another ootheca on the way as she has quite an appetite. 3 cricket over last night, and she is hunting the 2 I just put in there.
> 
> I think the ootheca she laid sounds small from what I hear. It was a little over the size of a quarter in diameter. Probably because I was feeding her like a non-pregnant adult.


As Carey said, mate, you're doing fine! Don't get hung up on how often you mist the ooth. Remember that in the winter, the relative humidity drops with the temperature, until it is pretty much like the inside of the fridge. I knew a guy who sold ooths on Ebay, who used to dump his ooths in a bucket of water once a week, so it takes a lot to kill them off!

The ooth is exactly the size that it's supposed to be, too. They come in all sizes, and sometimes get smaller as the female nears the end of her egg laying career. Good luck and keep us up to date.


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