# Headless Popa spurca alive after five hours!



## Deacon (Mar 3, 2016)

Ok now I'm creeped out a bit!  In my communal tank of two adult pairs of popas, the older male (3 wks) finally attempted to mate with the older female some time last night.  At 7 AM when I uncovered the tanks, Daisy had eaten Huey to his abdomen and he was still hanging on but not attached. I assumed he was dead and had not fallen off because he had a leg stuck under her short wings on one side (they are hanging from the lid). It's almost noon so I just tried to remove him but he's ALIVE and moved his legs to get a better grip!  OMG! I just took a peek to see if she had dumped him but he is connected now.  Mother Nature is something else! LOL

I've read on this forum that this can happen but I had no idea he would be alive after this many hours...how long will he "live" like this?

Here they are after disconnecting.


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## Introvertebrate (Mar 3, 2016)

Well, he's alive and he isn't.  I can only surmise that some of the neurons needed to establish a proper footing reside outside the head.  He's probably a very agreeable mate, and a good listener.


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## Deacon (Mar 3, 2016)

That's funny!  Yesterday was the off day (she eats a large cricket or dubia every other day.)  Maybe she was getting hungry by the time he jumped her.  He's still on her back ten hours later from when I found them.  I figured she wouldn't want her meal this afternoon, but she took an adult cricket so guess he was just the appetizer...

If he doesn't leave her, will she finish him off?


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## CosbyArt (Mar 3, 2016)

Sad to say it was the idle hands are the devil's plaything here. When mating always offer the female a meal to keep her occupied, and with some females I've had to give them more feeders as they ate it rather quickly.

Hopefully he was successful head or not. With a few of my females even when I witnessed successful pairing/mating awhile back the ooths were infertile. So best of luck.  

With the male he should eventually let go, or if not the female will turn him into a snack or simply brush him off when she tires of giving him a ride.


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## Deacon (Mar 4, 2016)

Thomas, I tried really hard to get her to take food yesterday because I noticed this male hanging around a wide perimeter. I still haven't figured out what a female "calling" looks like. And when I saw her at 7 AM he was already half gone so nothing I could do.  My four (three now) Popas are in a large communal aquarium heavy with twigs and for the most part they have avoided each other while they were all molting at separate times.  This female was the only adult when I put them together a month ago and she has already layed an ooth which I assume is infertile since both males were pretty young.  I'm really not planning on hatching any ooths yet (if I change my mind, I'd go for the Dbl Shields or Sphodromantids---love those females!)  I'm loving having all adult mantids for now.


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## CosbyArt (Mar 4, 2016)

Even with the best efforts, it still happens.  

Indeed adults seem to be "more fun" with no molting worries, able to take feeders of nearly any size, ability to fly, the larger flashy deimatic threats, breeding new generations, and such. I enjoy the nymphs too, but it's a feeling of accomplishment went they make it to adulthood.


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## Rick (Mar 4, 2016)

He will probably still be "alive" in five days. I wouldn't worry so much about calling, if your females have been adult for a few weeks you can breed them.


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## Deacon (Mar 4, 2016)

He was still on her back at midnight when I went to cover them up.  I mist all the aquariums in the evenings and when I did, the male tried yet again to connect with Daisy!  When he didn't manage that he got turned around and tried her head and shoulder (I gave her a big cricket which she demolished throughout his antics).  This morning they were in the same spot on the lid.  It's noon now and she has moved to the sticks near the ground and he's not on her so I thought she'd finished him off.  Nope, he's hanging in another twig a few inches from her.

Rick, really, five days?  Is he going to keep wandering as if whole?  Should I freeze him or let what happens happen?  I really can't wrap my brain around what is going on.  Without a head, is he feeling pain.  Do they have a brain?

And I was only asking about calling because I have three more adult females (different species) next to adult males.  I was just wondering what "calling" looks like.

About the remaining Popas: Daisy is 41 days, Doris is 15 days, and Louie is 9 days old.  Being so young, will Louie avoid these females if they are calling? I have a spot I could remove him to but I think the whole idea of my communal tank was to watch life happen naturally.  I'm not looking for a fertile ooth from this species although they have been more fun watching them living together.


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## Deacon (Mar 5, 2016)

He's still crawling around on the twigs without his upper half.  I'm going to be forced to look into this insects' nerve system.  We are all agog in this family.


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## Introvertebrate (Mar 5, 2016)

As long as he doesn't start riding around on horseback attacking people.


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## CosbyArt (Mar 5, 2016)

Who knows maybe the headless mantid will successfully breed with her again?

In the end though it will starve to death without it's head. It's very odd and doing some digging it seems a cockroach can go headless for up to a year. If your curious here are some links about insects without their heads including the how/why...


Scientific American article

A scientific explanation on youtube

Head transplants article

A article about cockroaches in particular

Reddit post with link to mantid video and explanations


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## Deacon (Mar 6, 2016)

Thomas, I enjoyed every one of the articles you dug up for me.  Explains a lot.  However, I don't think he can "find" her now as he can't smell her pheromones anymore without his head, right?  Or if they breath like a cockroach, do they pick up scents in all those pores too?

I noticed tonight that he responded to being misted---moved his feet and wagged his abdomen back and forth.  

None of the articles talked about pain though.  I hope he isn't feeling any because now it is just interesting watching what will happen next.

Thanks again for the articles.  The Vsauce one---that guy is very interesting--I almost got hooked turning on all his other UTube videos on other topics!  Not tonight...


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## CosbyArt (Mar 6, 2016)

Deacon said:


> Thomas, I enjoyed every one of the articles you dug up for me.  Explains a lot.  However, I don't think he can "find" her now as he can't smell her pheromones anymore without his head, right?  Or if they breath like a cockroach, do they pick up scents in all those pores too?
> 
> I noticed tonight that he responded to being misted---moved his feet and wagged his abdomen back and forth.
> 
> ...


I can't say for sure; however, as they hear from their sound organ maybe they can still accurately find and position themselves without a head - honestly I don't know. Perhaps if would be worthwhile to pickup the male with a stick/dowel rod/whatever and re-position him on the female, that way if he could he would mate again.

It is rather strange the amount they can do without a head, disturbing but fascinating too. Your welcome for the links. They were from a quick look, and several such as book references from the Google book previews don't allow link copy (it doesn't load) so there are many other things to read on the topic too if you do a search.


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## Deacon (Mar 6, 2016)

Thomas,

Positioning this half/male would simply be for the curiosity at this point since I'm not looking for a fertile ooth as raising a hoard of nymphs is out of my range right now.  If I change my mind, I do have a younger pair of Popas (at least Daisy hasn't gotten to him yet)!

I had forgotten that the sound organ is located between the legs.  Really fascinating watching these insects


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## CosbyArt (Mar 6, 2016)

Deacon said:


> Thomas,
> 
> Positioning this half/male would simply be for the curiosity at this point since I'm not looking for a fertile ooth as raising a hoard of nymphs is out of my range right now.  If I change my mind, I do have a younger pair of Popas (at least Daisy hasn't gotten to him yet)!
> 
> I had forgotten that the sound organ is located between the legs.  Really fascinating watching these insects


Yeah I guess it would be curiosity either way. Nah, raising nymphs is half the fun.  

Well best of luck if you decide to try breeding the younger pair.


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## Deacon (Mar 7, 2016)

Thanks, Thomas.  I mis-spoke.  I like nymphs, too.  I just think an oothful of them is beyond me.  Plus that would mean all those little containers again after I finally got everyone into aquarium sections which I am really enjoying!


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 7, 2016)

I would place him on someone to mate. He will find the source.


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## Deacon (Mar 7, 2016)

Well, too late as the isopods have found Huey today and he is rigid so I will leave his remains for them.  He gave it a good try though. :angel:


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## Deacon (Mar 16, 2016)

I must have a mean female Popa spurca.  Louie (23 days and starting to follow the females) must have gotten too close and now has a raptorial arm that is a 1/4 inch stub.


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## CosbyArt (Mar 16, 2016)

Hopefully Daisy is already fertile from poor Huey, if so then little Louie can keep a safe distance from her. It could very well be that she is a bit aggressive, or the males are simply so lost on the whole process Daisy looses her temper. At least Louie still has his head so he's fairing better so far.


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## Deacon (Mar 19, 2016)

Thomas, as of two days ago, Louie also lost his head.  (I have been at the hospital with my 93 yr-old mom so mantids are taking a back seat.)  He's still on her back and I don't know if he ever connected.  The first couple of days, he would try to connect if I blew on him gently, but I never saw it happen in the short time I have checked on the mantids each day.  Here I thought they were one of the more docile mantids.  Not Daisy.

I have one ooth from her, before she ate Huey, and I don't know if it is fertile.  I have assumed not.  The first ooth was Feb 26 so she could be thinking about another ooth shortly.

Will a female eat another female just for the heck of it?  It's only Daisy (57) and Doris (30) left in the big aquarium.  Lots of room and twigs so they could avoid each other if they want to.  Both girls are round like my pinkie and not bulging.  Actually, Doris is almost as old as Daisy was when she layed her first ooth (at 34 days).  But I know that neither male has been near Doris, during the day at least.

Goodness, I was just updating my mantid chart and realized that both Huey and Louie lost their heads at 21 days old!


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## CosbyArt (Mar 19, 2016)

With your mom in the hospital I can't blame you, I wish you both the best.

Regarding Daisy, I wouldn't put it past her injuring/killing Doris at this point with two males under her belt it is hard to say if her aggression is purely from mating or just her normal attitude towards others. Although i would imagine it is due to mating as she has been getting aggressively lately - and they have all been housed together before adults right?

That is strange they both males lost their heads on the same day. Sounds like you will have to hope the males were able to successfully bred with one if not both females, or try to find some more males to bred again.


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## Deacon (Apr 8, 2016)

Thomas,

Doris was moved to a safer home a few days ago!  That Daisy, the cannibal, had her trapped in the crotch of a grouping of twigs.  At first, I thought Doris was dead since she was so contorted but I ushered Daisy to the opposite end of the tank and gently got Doris out of her predicament---took some doing!  She is gravid with her first ooth so her abdomen really got caught in the twigs and being so heavy she was literally stuck there.  She is now settling quite nicely in the tank with my ghost female on one side (who layed her 2nd ooth yesterday) and my lonely Hierodula male on her other side. (I am really enjoying my triple-divided  ten gallon tanks.)

Maybe Daisy was harassing her because they are both gravid?  Or maybe she is just not nice.  Daisy had just turned adult when I put the four Popas together.  The others were sub-adults.  Anyway, she will now live out her life in an 18 gallon home all by herself!


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## CosbyArt (Apr 8, 2016)

Hard to say what Daisy's intentions were, but even the most communal species still will cannibalize randomly. A reason many keepers will keep all mantids in their own habitats, as why chance losing one. I'm the same way and after my nymphs molt to L2 they are then separated individually. Although it sounds like Daisy revels in the act itself, perhaps she just wants to be left alone.

Glad to hear Doris will be happy in her new setup.  Also congrats on finding her in time and getting her out safely, it definitely sounds like you saved your girl.


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## mantisman 230 (Apr 9, 2016)

At least your male will connect without a head xD, I'm trying to breed Rhombodera fusca and my male has yet to properly mate with his head attached. And yet he sat on a female for two days and no connection xD.


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## Deacon (Apr 13, 2016)

Oh, Thomas, Doris dropped dead two days after I posted her removal from the communal tank.  I guess she did get injured but I didn't see any green blood or holes anywhere on her.  Too bad as she was only 50 days old and gravid.  I don't believe either of the males ever bred with her though. She was brown and Daisy is almost black so they were identifiable.

Daisy is now past-due for laying a second ooth.  Her first was layed at 34 days (assumed infertile) and that was 47 days ago.  Considering she killed two males on her back, I assume her next ooth could be fertile so I search her habitat every day.  Now that she is alone, I am going to remove many of the twigs today as it is kind a a jungle (meant to provide hiding spots when the four of them were together).


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## CosbyArt (Apr 13, 2016)

Sorry to hear she didn't make it Nancy.  Perhaps Doris was internally injured in a location where any entrance wound sealed itself back somewhat, or was small enough there was no noticeable blood. Either way two days of her incident with Daisy, it's extremely likely something happened.

As I only had a few Popa's as nymphs (they had a rough shipment and died within days of arriving), so I am not sure of their time between ooths - but that seems like a excessive long period between ooths. How long did it take her on the first ooth after molting to a adult? That might give a clue as to a time-frame, after subtracting about 3 weeks. One person who would know is dmina, but I haven't seen her on in awhile.

Indeed, sounds like a good idea so you can find her ooth to see what is going on.


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