# Is wild catching avoided in the mantid hobby?



## Numismatica (Sep 5, 2021)

Hello all! I am a tad of a tarantula hobbyist already and I understand that many people are against taking an invertebrate from its home. I was wondering if this correlates to mantids as well? There’s a native species in my state “The Unicorn Mantis” that I really wish to obtain. Not even sure where to look yet but I live in Arizona so that’s a good start. No matter the reply I will probably continue to look for one unless I find out they are a suffering species, just because me and my friend go night hunting a lot. Maybe one day I will go back and try to breed more. In a long, long time lol.


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## Synapze (Sep 5, 2021)

Unless the species is rare or endangered, I'd say go for it!


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## Greybeard (Jul 15, 2022)

I live in SE Arizona, and also would like to capture some nymphs or find an Ooth or two to breed the Arizona Unicorn Mantis (_Pseudovates arizonae_). Found an article on the internet called "Keeping Insects," which has some great detail on the Arizona Unicorn Mantis. Description, environment, breeding, captive care, etc. So the author (unnamed) seems either to have done the work, or gotten the data from the person who did. Have some leads on location-nothing solid, yet. Let's talk more if you still have interest.


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## hibiscusmile (Jul 16, 2022)

I have 4 adult females, some with mismolt wings. Will post for sale today unless someone here wants to make a bid.


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## Greybeard (Jul 16, 2022)

Hi, 
That's great, but I am not ready for adult mantids right yet-just getting re-started. Did you capture these in the wild?
Also it is very hot, even for an Arizona species (103F-106F through next week). Thank you for the offer-much appreciated!


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## Curiosity (Aug 25, 2022)

@Greybeard Adult mantises are easier to take care of than nymphs, at least in my experience with wild European mantises.


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## The Wolven (Aug 26, 2022)

I don't believe there's any endangered species in America. If you find a mantis, feel free to yoink them into a cup and run.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 26, 2022)

I would do it and in fact I do. In fall coming mostly to save them from freezing.


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## agent A (Aug 27, 2022)

I guess it depends
if you're collecting a few mantises for yourself, you're probably fine
wild-collecting things for the sake of selling them is a different matter (unless we're talking about invasive species)


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## kurlyq101 (Sep 5, 2022)

I just wild-caught my first 2 mantis. To me, honestly, with all the shadiness, poor care, and people out to make $$ (who confuse thinking exotics are cool with caring about them) in the industry... wild catching JUST up to a few is a better alternative because 1. At least you know WHAT the ethics of the situation actually ~is~ & 2. You have (ideally) firsthand knowledge of what that mantid's legitimate natural environment is like so you can replicate it. 

Story: Had been wanting to start keeping, and two nights ago one literally fell towards me when I pushed back the mosquito curtain into my backyard. Then found the second at the light by the door, which I was gonna leave until it fell down, took quite an interest in me, and jumped into my hair without my knowledge when it started raining and later fell out onto my kitchen floor. I am not sure if they're Carolina or Chinese. But I think I have a M and F based on size. I am also guessing they're around L3/4s. If they're Carolinas (native) & hoping I bring both to maturity, I may try to mate them and release in spring. First though, I will check if this is a good thing with my local university AgExtension. (Will *NOT* do this if they're Chinese mantis, which outcompete Carolinas. 

PSA: No one should be breeding & re-releasing non-native species anywhere. If you can't care for a whole clutch of a non-native species, *unless they've fully outcompeted your local native species* don't be breeding them. That simple! & Utilize your local university Ag Extensions (just google that) for help with concerns about natural mantis populations.


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## agent A (Sep 5, 2022)

kurlyq101 said:


> I just wild-caught my first 2 mantis. To me, honestly, with all the shadiness, poor care, and people out to make $$ (who confuse thinking exotics are cool with caring about them) in the industry... wild catching JUST up to a few is a better alternative because 1. At least you know WHAT the ethics of the situation actually ~is~ & 2. You have (ideally) firsthand knowledge of what that mantid's legitimate natural environment is like so you can replicate it.
> 
> Story: Had been wanting to start keeping, and two nights ago one literally fell towards me when I pushed back the mosquito curtain into my backyard. Then found the second at the light by the door, which I was gonna leave until it fell down, took quite an interest in me, and jumped into my hair without my knowledge when it started raining and later fell out onto my kitchen floor. I am not sure if they're Carolina or Chinese. But I think I have a M and F based on size. I am also guessing they're around L3/4s. If they're Carolinas (native) & hoping I bring both to maturity, I may try to mate them and release in spring. First though, I will check if this is a good thing with my local university AgExtension. (Will *NOT* do this if they're Chinese mantis, which outcompete Carolinas.
> 
> PSA: No one should be breeding & re-releasing non-native species anywhere. If you can't care for a whole clutch of a non-native species, *unless they've fully outcompeted your local native species* don't be breeding them. That simple! & Utilize your local university Ag Extensions (just google that) for help with concerns about natural mantis populations.


I could rant for hours about people's poor care of their mantises, ESPECIALLY in the realm of improper feeding techniques
we in the first world are spoiled and we tend to overfeed ourselves and our pets. not to mention we give our animals very limited diet breadth and don't often bother to gutload feeders, and some people like to blame ANY issue with keeping their mantises going on inbreeding...

anyway, I am a bit concerned that you're finding nymphs THAT young in September. There are some key differences between the chinese and carolina mantises (BTW there's nowhere on earth where these are the ONLY 2 species existing in an area)
the chinese mantis has a very flattened head and some stripes on its face going up and down, while the carolina has these really bulgy round eyes and a shallower face area. chinese mantids also get very very large (close to 5 inches) while carolinas stay around 2.5 inches.
I wouldn't use size to determine sex, especially with immatures. the size difference could mean they are different species
the other concerning thing is that if they are indeed just in the 3rd or 4th instar, they may be infected with something parasitic


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## kurlyq101 (Sep 8, 2022)

.


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## kurlyq101 (Sep 8, 2022)

agent A said:


> I could rant for hours about people's poor care of their mantises, ESPECIALLY in the realm of improper feeding techniques
> we in the first world are spoiled and we tend to overfeed ourselves and our pets. not to mention we give our animals very limited diet breadth and don't often bother to gutload feeders, and some people like to blame ANY issue with keeping their mantises going on inbreeding...
> 
> anyway, I am a bit concerned that you're finding nymphs THAT young in September. There are some key differences between the chinese and carolina mantises (BTW there's nowhere on earth where these are the ONLY 2 species existing in an area)
> ...


I think I have realized since posting that they are a bit older than I thought. I think maybe I've only ever seen larger mantises before and didn't expect the Carolina to be so small at nearly full size. If I post a picture do you think you could help me ID the instar?


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## agent A (Sep 8, 2022)

kurlyq101 said:


> I think I have realized since posting that they are a bit older than I thought. I think maybe I've only ever seen larger mantises before and didn't expect the Carolina to be so small at nearly full size. If I post a picture do you think you could help me ID the instar?


with a coin for reference, probably


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## kurlyq101 (Sep 14, 2022)

agent A said:


> with a coin for reference, probably


I took ref. pics for one of them before I saw you mentioned a coin, so I have it in relation to my watch face WITH a coin in reference to the watch face. There are also closer up pics of each. I'm going to post them seperately to avoid confusion. Thanks for your help (and anyone else who gives input). I'd like help with IDing the approx. instar & if anyone has an idea whether or not they are Carolina Ms.


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## kurlyq101 (Sep 14, 2022)

I've also realized they may both be males? Here is the first. (Named El Sordo after the Spanish artist Goya.)


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## kurlyq101 (Sep 14, 2022)

Here is the second. (Named Acuario bc I decided to keep mantises during the Aquarius Moon.)


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## agent A (Sep 14, 2022)

they both look like presub male _Stagmomantis carolina_ to me


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## kurlyq101 (Sep 14, 2022)

agent A said:


> they both look like presub male _Stagmomantis carolina_ to me


Thank you! & What does presub mean? What instars would be covered by that?


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## agent A (Sep 14, 2022)

kurlyq101 said:


> Thank you! & What does presub mean? What instars would be covered by that?


it depends on the species and sex
presub is the penultimate instar, which for some species is i4, a lot of times it's i5, it can be i6
in some species, _Stagmomantis _species included, the females have an extra instar, so for males it's an instar earlier. in _S. carolina_, it is MOST LIKELY i5, but the related _S. limbata _can vary in its instar count depending on food quality and other environmental factors and I'm willing to bet other members of the genus are equally plastic.
it is a tad bit concerning that you're finding such underdeveloped guys in September, especially in Georgia. I hope they grow on to become adults but don't be surprised if that doesn't happen


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## Orin (Sep 15, 2022)

Numismatica said:


> Hello all! I am a tad of a tarantula hobbyist already and I understand that many people are against taking an invertebrate from its home. I was wondering if this correlates to mantids as well? There’s a native species in my state “The Unicorn Mantis” that I really wish to obtain. Not even sure where to look yet but I live in Arizona so that’s a good start. No matter the reply I will probably continue to look for one unless I find out they are a suffering species, just because me and my friend go night hunting a lot. Maybe one day I will go back and try to breed more. In a long, long time lol.


I think with tarantulas if you take an adult female she may be 10 or 20 years old and eventually as old females are taken it will depress the population (assuming there's any natural habitat available) but with mantids, they're seasonal so the oldest female you'll find is 3-6 months of age and you'd have to collect most of the population to have a real impact. Difference between cutting off the fingertip and the fingernail.


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## TheMantisQueen (Sep 16, 2022)

I would love to buy a mature male Stagmomantis. Please let me know if you’re selling any of them. Or perhaps, if you can give me tips on what bush or foliage it was in, please let me know. A Stagmomantis Limbata landed on my front porch wall and I housed and raised it to an adult. It would have died out there because of the major heat wave in Santa Clara Bay Area if I hadn’t intervened.
She’s very sweet to me and we are bonded now. I’d like to pair her with a male so I’d love to hear how you managed to find a male outside. I will release him after the pairing.


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## melonberries (Nov 6, 2022)

TheMantisQueen said:


> I would love to buy a mature male Stagmomantis. Please let me know if you’re selling any of them. Or perhaps, if you can give me tips on what bush or foliage it was in, please let me know. A Stagmomantis Limbata landed on my front porch wall and I housed and raised it to an adult. It would have died out there because of the major heat wave in Santa Clara Bay Area if I hadn’t intervened.
> She’s very sweet to me and we are bonded now. I’d like to pair her with a male so I’d love to hear how you managed to find a male outside. I will release him after the pairing.


I've only ever found adult gravid females, possibly because at that point they've eaten their mates  but if it helps, I always find them in early November. Mid or low leafy bushes or low small tree branches, especially if the plant attracts pollinators. They also like to emerge on sunnier afternoons to warm up.


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## TheMantisQueen (Nov 8, 2022)

melonberries said:


> I've only ever found adult gravid females, possibly because at that point they've eaten their mates  but if it helps, I always find them in early November. Mid or low leafy bushes or low small tree branches, especially if the plant attracts pollinators. They also like to emerge on sunnier afternoons to warm up.


Thank you for your help!


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## Orin (Nov 8, 2022)

If you leave the female out in a screen cage you may find a male or two nearby at night/ early morning.


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