# New and overwhelming



## ieatroaches (Mar 25, 2019)

Hello all,

I joined hoping someone could help me figure out what we have been doing wrong. My son (11 today) has been in love with insects since he was in diapers. He aspires to be an entomologist, and there's nothing he loves more than mantises. 

So far we have had an orchid and a ghost (along with various other mantids he's found in the yard). Both of his babies died before completing a molt. We've done a lot of research, but there is a lot of information out there, much of it conflicting. We made sure to feed both flightless fruit flies, mist daily, and do everything we could to keep them happy and healthy. We were keeping them in a glass tank, with mesh top. Could it be a lack of ventilation? 

Any help would be appreciated. I plan on getting him a mantis soon, possibly another ghost, but I dont think either of us can take finding another little friend gone.


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 25, 2019)

Welcome to the forum, @ieatroaches! 

Lack of ventilation with almost all species is a killer. What were the temps and RH? Were they housed communally? What Instar were they?

I've been in love with insects my whole life too (I'm 14) and I got so frustrated with my first exotics when they all died due to ventilation and food issues, so I understand the feeling of not being able to figure out what you are doing wrong. 

Orchids are a little more complicated than ghosts, so not great for beginners. 

If you are getting him a new mantis soon, I'd suggest the ghosts, as well as spiny flowers and budwings. If you try for a higher Instar you might have better luck as you get acquainted with the care of mantids. Hope this helped!

- MantisGirl13


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## ieatroaches (Mar 25, 2019)

With the ghost, we kept her around 78. Not sure about the rh, but she was misted daily. We didn't have the two at the same time. It's been a little while, also, so forgive me if I dont remember everything completely. I believe she was an l4 or 5. 

I tried finding a habitat to buy him, and was looking at the one on usmantis, but that site seems to be having issues.


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 25, 2019)

Ok. That sounds like good conditions for a ghost, assuming ventilation wasn't a part of it. Where did you get them?

Which one on usmantis were you thinking about? (link) 

- MantisGirl13


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## ieatroaches (Mar 25, 2019)

https://usmantis.com/products/best-insect-habitat-cage-for-praying-mantis-bug-box-clear-locking?variant=50091982100

Also, both mantises came from usmantis.


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## ieatroaches (Mar 25, 2019)

This is what he has.

https://www.amazon.com/Exo-Terra-Glass-Natural-Terrarium/dp/B0041P5PBE/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_199_tr_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&amp;psc=1&amp;refRID=BDHZW73AWTC43ACJ9KMD


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## hysteresis (Mar 25, 2019)

ieatroaches said:


> This is what he has.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Exo-Terra-Glass-Natural-Terrarium/dp/B0041P5PBE/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_199_tr_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&amp;psc=1&amp;refRID=BDHZW73AWTC43ACJ9KMD


Welcome to the forum!

The nano tall is great for a large species for sure.

I keep young nymphs in far smaller habitats. 32oz deli cups with vented lids:

https://www.panterrapets.com/products/deli-cups-vented-lids

I also have mesh lids for species that require frequent misting, and thus require better ventilation.

The reasoning is simple: smaller habitat = easier for a young nymph to hunt.

I would avoid USMANTIS these days as dude hasn't been fulfilling orders (i've heard).

Online vendors aside (and most are in here anyways), you can buy from the Buy / Sell section. Reviews are posted, etc.

@MantisGirl13 is correct that too much humidity and not enough ventilation is a killer. The nano is amazing for ventilation, it's just *REALLY * big for a small nymph. Ghosts are small anyways.

Also, remember that humid isn't the same as wetness.

Hope you keep your son in the hobby. We have two boys - 8 and 6 (_almost _7).

They 6 yo was walking around today spending his evening as a mantis.   Near the end, he says to me: "I'm a very tired mantis." 

Thanks for joining us!


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 25, 2019)

I totally agree with everything hysteresis just stated. 

Also, the first link shows a cage that is not suitable for a mantis. It doesn't have enough top ventilation and it has no grip on the top (no mesh) making a molt very hard. 



hysteresis said:


> They﻿ 6 yo was walking ar﻿ound today spending his evening as a mantis.   Near the end, he says to me: "I'm a very tired mantis." ﻿


That's hilarious! Little kids have such imaginations. 

- MantisGirl13


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## hysteresis (Mar 25, 2019)

MantisGirl13 said:


> Also, the first link shows a cage that is not suitable for a mantis. It doesn't have enough top ventilation and it has no grip on the top (no mesh) making a molt very hard.


Snap! I missed that.

@ieatroaches, you can zoom in and see that I kept (at that time) 4 oz and 32 oz cups. For small nymphs, they easily lived hunted and perched in the 4 oz cups. I cut out the tops and hot glued in a fine tulle-like ribbon material that was basically see through, as well as suitable for a small nymph to grab. I used a simple cotton pad, swapped out every two or three days as a substrate. Dollar store cheap.

Once mantises need the hang space at molt, they're also a bit more aggressive in that they'll track a prey item and either position to get it as it comes by, or even waltz on over and take it. Good time for a 32oz.

My nano tall is for my adult venosa female. Shes big and mean. I cant even touch her anymore, without a risk of a pinch or nip.


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## hysteresis (Mar 25, 2019)

If it's aesthetics, and just have one mantis, the exo nano (8x8x8) is a good size.

The price adds up if you're using these fancy enclosures.


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 26, 2019)

@hysteresis, where do you get your 32oz deli cups? Sry for the off topic.

- MantisGirl13


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## ieatroaches (Mar 26, 2019)

I'm just trying to figure out what went wrong, so I can fix it. I know they were able to find prey, as they spent most of their time on the screen top, and the fruit flies would go up there, too. I thought maybe cross ventilation was the issue, but i guess not. We thought about getting a heating pad, but a few people said that was a bad idea. I definitely plan on getting something to monitor humidity this time around. Would he be able to use the nano he has if we set it up right, or is it a lost cause? 

And thank you both for all your help. There's no question of him staying on the hobby, he's got us all in love with mantises.


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## ieatroaches (Mar 26, 2019)

Also, would it be possible to keep more than one ghost housed communally? He is perfectly happy to give ghosts another go. We all loved the one he had. 

If deli cups are the way to go, we will do that, but I would love to use the nano he has.


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 26, 2019)

If you are willing to feed the ghosts in a separate container you can use the nano for a group of ghosts. Feeding in a separate container is necessary to ensure that all get fed well. Ghosts are my favorite. 



ieatroaches said:


> And﻿ thank you both for all your help. There's no question of him staying on the hobby, he's got us all in love ﻿with mant﻿﻿i﻿se﻿﻿s﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿.﻿


We are glad to help you! That's great, mantids are awesome creatures for sure!

Let us know if you have any more questions!

- MantisGirl13


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## ieatroaches (Mar 26, 2019)

I found a container I think I can modify to fit his needs. It's a plastic container that held lighters, like you see at gas stations. We are off to hunt for supplies. Anything i should keep in mind, or ideal equipment? I'm planning on picking up an rh and temp meter, do I need lights or other heat sources? I'm determined to do this right.


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## hysteresis (Mar 26, 2019)

Ghosts are fine at 70deg.

Coconut fiber (ecoearth) is excellent substrate. I currently use cotton pads though.

Their needs are simple. Dont overclutter.

Something to allow easy climbing up to their lids. I use plastic fern. All my ghosts like perchng on the fern.

Make sure theres enough projected area (top down) that they dont snag when they molt. Make sure the height is 3 to 4 times its flacid length for molting.

Hydei ff cultures take time to establish so maybe buy two. Theyre typically sold in 32oz cups. Feed off of one, let the other cycle.

Good luck.


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 26, 2019)

And don't forget a screen lid. That will help for a hanging/molting surface and ventilation. 

- MantisGirl13


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 26, 2019)

Welcome!


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## Bentis (Mar 26, 2019)

Welcome to the hobby and be careful not too get too carried away with these little aliens.  They're so addicting!  I wish I could provide you with more information regarding the troubles you're running into but  @MantisGirl13 and @hysteresis basically covered your questions.


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## ieatroaches (Mar 26, 2019)

Thanks again, for the welcome and advice. If anyone is interested, I'll post our project once it's finished. 

On a side note, pet store guy told us that metal screens can damage the legs if nymphs, any truth to this?

ETA we're going to keep deli cups on hand in case this doesn't work.


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## ieatroaches (Mar 26, 2019)

Not the prettiest, but a lid made of an embroidery hoop, plastic "screen" and tulle on the inside for optimum hanging, keeping fruit flies in. Think this will work?


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## hysteresis (Mar 26, 2019)

That tulle may not keep hydei in.

Definitely not melanogaster.

If youre feeding hydei, maybe add a 2nd layer of tulle.

I found a very fine decorative material (wide-ish ribbon) that is nearly see through and keeps hydei in perfectly. Dollar store.

That lid is awesome.


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## hysteresis (Mar 26, 2019)

I'll load a photo when im home from work.


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## ieatroaches (Mar 26, 2019)

So, ignore the messy background, but this is it so far. I added some ugly ventilation holes on the top side, and the other side lower. Do you think this will work?


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 26, 2019)

Cute lid idea! I agree with hysteresis, fruit flies will slip through easily. Metal screens are fine for most species, but it is mainly species like the violin mantis and idolomantis who have problems with them. Heavier mantids may also have trouble with them, but most mantis keepers use metal screen without problem for mantids who aren't on fruit flies. 

That container looks absolutely perfect for a ghost, but maybe add some more climbing plants or sticks.

- MantisGirl13


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## Mantis Lady (Mar 26, 2019)

Welcome  



ieatroaches said:


> So, ignore the messy background, but this is it so far. I added some ugly ventilation holes on the top side, and the other side lower. Do you think this will work?
> 
> View attachment 12201
> 
> ...


What a cute containr,.but fruitflies can easly eascape like the others said..

I use with my cup  when the mantids living on fruitflies this: https://www.mantidsandmore.com/product/drosogauze-30x35-cm/ 

No fruit fly escapes  When you dont need it anymore stop using it.


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## ieatroaches (Mar 26, 2019)

Thanks everyone. I will adjust so the fruit flies dont escape. I'll also add more things for the mantis to climb on. I wasnt sure if the plants at the top were going to block hanging area.


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 26, 2019)

ieatroaches said:


> Thanks everyone. I will adjust so the fruit flies dont escape. I'll also add more things for the mantis to climb on. I wasnt sure if the plants at the top were going to block hanging area.


Perfect! You can add sticks that don't touch the top, but rather lean on the sides to provide climbing area. They shouldn't block hanging space. Mantids will also hang on the plants.

Sounds like you are having as much fun with this as your son is or will be!

- MantisGirl13


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## ieatroaches (Mar 26, 2019)

Absolutely. We spent half the day working on this together. Can't wait til the new little guy gets here.


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 26, 2019)

ieatroaches said:


> Absolutely. We spent half the day working on this together. Can't wait til the new little guy gets here.


That's great. Where did you order from? What instar did you order?

- MantisGirl13


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## hysteresis (Mar 26, 2019)

Do be careful. If a small mantis is crowded and decides to molt close to the side, and the sides are wet, it could stick to the sides and mismolt. It could hang up on foliage.

Folks like @Graceface make bug ladders out of plastic canvas. There are many ways to provide perches without obstructing. Also be wary of low hanging perches.

I saw that almost happen to one of mine. I was able to intervene without touching it. Perfect molt.

Here is my fine mesh material. It was Christmas ribbon.


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## hysteresis (Mar 26, 2019)

MantisGirl13 said:


> @hysteresis, where do you get your 32oz deli cups? Sry for the off topic.
> 
> - MantisGirl13


https://www.northerngecko.net/shipping-supplies/slightly-opaque-4.5-non-punched-deli-cup-32-oz.-10-pack/

https://www.northerngecko.net/shipping-supplies/poly-fabric-4.5-deli-lid/

https://www.northerngecko.net/shipping-supplies/screened-4.5-deli-lid/

Toronto business.

But there's Panterra:

https://www.panterrapets.com/products/deli-cups-vented-lids


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 26, 2019)

Ok, Thanks! Trying to find the cheapest place to buy in bulk.

- MantisGirl13


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## hysteresis (Mar 26, 2019)

That's Canadian dollars BTW.

$1 CAD = $0.75 USD


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## ieatroaches (Mar 27, 2019)

I ordered from Panterrapets and it said they are L4-L5. I'll definitely fix up the inside a little after work. Make sure the area is clear with plenty of climbing access. 

I wish I would've joined this forum years ago. You guys are the best.


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 27, 2019)

ieatroaches said:


> I ordered from Panterrapets and it said they are L4-L5. I'll definitely fix up the inside a little after work. Make sure the area is clear with plenty of climbing access.
> 
> I wish I would've joined this forum years ago. You guys are the best.


Ok, they are a trusted site so too I are in good hands! L4-L5 is one of the best instars to start with because they are big enough to be handled, but still have growing time left. 

- MantisGirl13


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## hysteresis (Mar 27, 2019)

And at i4 i5 you can feed larger than hydei. Houseflies, quarter pin crix (be careful), larvae bits, waxworm bits.

One of mine even took a black soldier fly at i5.


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## Charoozz520 (Mar 27, 2019)

my L4 is actually taking Blue bottles! So that is an option if you look into it. Houseflies definitely works better since they are smaller.


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## ieatroaches (Mar 28, 2019)

How soon should I feed this baby? He/she just arrived, and I'm questioning everything I thought I knew.


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 28, 2019)

You can feed him right away. Give him some distilled water, too!

- MantisGirl13


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## hysteresis (Mar 28, 2019)

A fine misting on the insides of the cup and perches, moisten the substrate for humidity, and some snacks.

You should be good then.


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## ieatroaches (Mar 28, 2019)




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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 28, 2019)

It's a male and he's adorable!

- MantisGirl13


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## Mantis Lady (Mar 30, 2019)

cute little ghost


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## hysteresis (Mar 31, 2019)

How adorable are baby ghost!


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## FeistyMcGrudle (Mar 31, 2019)

Just throwing what little knowledge I have gained since I've started keeping mantises--I noticed your substrate you are using looks to be soil-based. I am slowly phasing out soil in the bottom of my terrariums due to mold accumulation. I have all but one enclosure that is soil, and thats because the ghost that is in there is getting close to molting and I plan on changing it out after he molts. The rest I am using either sphagnum moss in a tray for easy watering and removal, or wet paper towel lining the bottom of the enclosure. Granted, I haven't noticed any health issues using soil, but it got moldy enough to where I didn't feel comfortable using it anymore.

I also used the 'wide cast' technique when purchasing my ghosts, where I bought more than I thought were going to survive. This is a two-fold strategy because 1) It allows more room for experimentation to see what works, and 2) Invokes Murphys Law, ensuring all of them survive, strictly because I bought them thinking some were going to die.

Best of luck!


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## hysteresis (Mar 31, 2019)

Yeh. I bought 6 ghosts and 6 spinys.

So far, all 100%. ✌

But I dont think everyone is looking for that. LoL.


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