# Mismolt: Severe Disfigurement



## LLCoolJew (Dec 25, 2011)

Hi All.

I have a little Chinese nymph (L4) that had a mismolt, and is severely bent, disfigured, has missing body parts, and is partially disabled. That said, she's a trooper, and has managed to stay alive, keep a hearty appetite, is sweet, and has a seemingly good attitude. So, I haven't made any decisions yet, but obviously, I know about the freezer, and am not looking for that suggestion.

Just curious if you think there is anything I can do to potentially help her make it to her next molt, even though she is debilitated. Not sure that she can properly use her legs to hang from anywhere. But she's got a great spirit, is strong, is eating and eliminating, etc.

If you have any ideas or suggestions on how I can get her to her next molt, I'd love to know them. Please don't say "freezer time," since that's for me to decide. Otherwise, I am happy taking care of her as she is, in her little hospital bed I made of twigs and leaves, and I will look after her as long as she lets me.

Thanks!

Lauren


----------



## frogparty (Dec 25, 2011)

Oooohhhhh I would say freezer time, but it's your call. It looks like it will have a difficult time molting next time.


----------



## LLCoolJew (Dec 25, 2011)

Yeah, I'm hoping to skip the freezer suggestions, but thanks. I get that there might not be many options, bit just thought I'd ask.


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Dec 25, 2011)

A new molt will only give her back 20-30 % of what's wrong, if she can hang on through another molt? Mist twice a day and keep feeding is all you can really do..

Hope you can nurse her back to health, but you know what to do if you can't.


----------



## frogparty (Dec 25, 2011)

Could you perhaps secure it to the lid of the container with superglue and feed her via tongs until its ready to molt?


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Dec 25, 2011)

frogparty said:


> Could you perhaps secure it to the lid of the container with superglue and feed her via tongs until its ready to molt?


What??? Please don't do that! That would be a cruel way to solve it, and the mantis would probably rather die than be stuck in one place, I think...


----------



## frogparty (Dec 25, 2011)

Yeah. I already said freezer time.....and you know the way it is now it won't successfully hang for a good molt. Tough choices to make some times in the pet hobby


----------



## jcal (Dec 25, 2011)

I just had a miss molt myself. Back legs got stuck together. Had to cut them apart. Mantis just molted and now has one healthy leg and about 3/4 of the other.

I would be a long shot for this one to recover.

Putting the mantis in a natural position doesn't sound like a bad idea. From the looks of it, it's now moving alot in its own anyway. Is it?


----------



## LLCoolJew (Dec 25, 2011)

Thanks, jcal!!! Yes, she can move a bit on her own, but agree its a longshot. Good to know that yours managed, though. Thanks!


----------



## ShieldMantid1997 (Dec 25, 2011)

The only thing about glueing her to the top is it would be an ok idea IF she is unable to move and is currently laying in one spot. But if she can move now, then don't take her freedom away from her. Tough, good luck!


----------



## LLCoolJew (Dec 26, 2011)

Regarding gluing her: I'd actually entertain the idea if enough people thought that it was worth considering. She IS laying on one spot. While she can kind of flail around a bit, she cannot walk, cannot stand or sit up, etc. I do flip her on her other side at times, for all practical purposes, she can not move on her own.

...Has anyone here tried this method personally???

Thanks!

Lauren


----------



## lunarstorm (Dec 26, 2011)

If she's eating and "eliminating", I'd just keep doing what you're doing. There is a possibility she will successfully molt from the ground. It's not likely, but it has happened before. And if she can pull that off* I wouldn't be surprised if she had a remarkable recovery.

*pun is probably partially due to one too many glasses of Christmas ale


----------



## agent A (Dec 26, 2011)

A floor molt could work, half of my pseudoharpax molted from the floor when they became subadults and ive seen creobroter do it on many occasions  I've seen remarkable recoveries from mismolts that were kept hydrated, though the next molt took a very long time, I don't give up on mismolts that easily, afterall, it's not over till its over!! Good luck with her


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Dec 26, 2011)

Maybe some pics would help to know how bad things are or not?


----------



## jcal (Dec 26, 2011)

I've seen some ground molts but all of them were standing. Has someone had a successful molt where the mantis was not standing?


----------



## lancaster1313 (Dec 26, 2011)

Perhaps you could let her have her freedom until she is very close to molting, then glue her in a good position?

If you can be there when she begins her molt you might be able to help her? I have read a couple of posts(quite a while ago) where people held their mantids up by the tips of the abdomen during a molt, but that was when a mantis had fallen. Maybe it could work if you caught her in the act?

I have never tried either of those methods.

The only time I have interfered with molts has been when I acdentally disturbed a mantis in the beginning of the process, and almost messed her up.  I manually hooked her feet back onto the screen lid. That worked, but the mantis had all of her feet.


----------



## frogparty (Dec 26, 2011)

She posted a pic and it looks pretty awful


----------



## lancaster1313 (Dec 26, 2011)

I agree that it looks bad, but from the photo, I can't tell if she has 2 feet of the metanotal legs, and 1 foot on a mesonotal leg? If there are at least 3 hooks, it could be possible to help hook her up.

I have had at least a couple of disfigured mantids molt out fine when they only had 1 mesonotal, and 1 metanotal leg, but they were able to hang and molt on their own.


----------



## agent A (Dec 26, 2011)

I had a subadult gongy get his mid and back legs on the same day he molted and he molted fine, though he never mated neither did 90% of my healthy males


----------



## LLCoolJew (Dec 26, 2011)

Wow... good stuff! Thanks!!! I will just keep feeding her and see what happens!!!!

XO,

LL


----------



## crucis (Dec 26, 2011)

personally i think glue should be an absolute last resort.. few things freak out an insect more than getting its limbs stuck, and freaked-out insects don't moult well. Since she can't climb anything, her best bet would probably be a ground moult with rough substrate. Or when the time's right, you could also try assisting her by letting her grip a vertical surface like mesh or paper towel. Either way, it would be helpful to try coaxing her into the standard upright posture (all feet on the ground and spread out in their proper positions) for the rest of the instar.. with her current posture, a successful moult would be a real challenge. You could seriously consider dabbing a tiny amount of glue onto her tarsi and securing her head-downward onto a vertical wall (not upside-down) if it looks like she's going to try moulting in her current posture.. but it's your call i guess.

all the best and keep saying no to freezers  You just never know how things will turn out..


----------



## Krissim Klaw (Dec 30, 2011)

Not sure why everyone always jumps to freezer comments. If she didn't want to live she wouldn't be readily taking food. Like you, I would try and make her as comfortable as possible and give her whatever time she has. I thought about gluing as others have mentioned, but I would use that as a last resort since I would be afraid to do more harm then good. I would probably get her set up with something textured beneath her and then tilt her at an angle as much as you can head pointed down without her sliding. That way you can give her as much gravity as she can get to work with when she is ready to molt. In the meantime, give her plenty of tlc and humidity. Good luck, I'll be rooting for her.


----------



## jcal (Dec 31, 2011)

I think people jump to the freezer idea because at some point it becomes more about our wants and desires over the mantis. Quality of life plays into this. I don't own the bug so i can't speak for it, But I would rather freeze than to let suffer slowly.

Again i am not saying this is the case with this mantis.

I am curious though......how's it going?


----------



## PhilinYuma (Dec 31, 2011)

I would suggest, knowing that this may cost me my life, that keeping mantids is first and last about the owner's needs and desires. We buy and raise mantids and daily give them other insects, sometimes even vertebrates, that they slowly eat alive. What about the prey's needs and desires and "quality of life", whatever that means? KK (and i'm still yr biggest fan!  ) suggests that the mantis in question "wants to live". By that reasoning, doesn't the fly or bee impaled on the mantis's claws want to live as it is being devoured? I'm sure that it wants to live as much as the mantis, but I'm equally sure that none of us cares. Or how about the male mantis that is similarly devoured during mating? We could prevent this by not mating our adults, but we would rather have a fertile female than a live male. Our choice, again, not his. So yes, mantids tend to live at our pleasure and die of old age, misfortune or our mismanagement, nothing more and nothing less.

I would also point out that killing a mantis by letting it die slowly in the dark and cold, like the Lady of Shallot:

[They] Heard a carol mournful, holy,

Chanted loudly, chanted lowly,

As her blood was frozen slowly,

And her eyes were darkened wholly

Looking down on Camelot.

is also done for the owner's comfort. Has any one of you stood by the freezer door as the mantis that you are killing in the dark sings its death song? Probably not. So even the manner of the mantid's death serves the owner's sqeemishness and desire not to be troubled..


----------



## jcal (Dec 31, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> I would suggest, knowing that this may cost me my life, that keeping mantids is first and last about the owner's needs and desires. We buy and raise mantids and daily give them other insects, sometimes even vertebrates, that they slowly eat alive. What about the prey's needs and desires and "quality of life", whatever that means? KK (and i'm still yr biggest fan!  ) suggests that the mantis in question "wants to live". By that reasoning, doesn't the fly or bee impaled on the mantis's claws want to live as it is being devoured? I'm sure that it wants to live as much as the mantis, but I'm equally sure that none of us cares. Or how about the male mantis that is similarly devoured during mating? We could prevent this by not mating our adults, but we would rather have a fertile female than a live male. Our choice, again, not his. So yes, mantids tend to live at our pleasure and die of old age, misfortune or our mismanagement, nothing more and nothing less.


Agreeded. We all manage things according to the standards we choose. Those that I choose I stated above. Everyone sees things differently. "quality of life" I guess we all have our definition. And the bugs are at the mercy of our decisions/definitions


----------



## Psychobunny (Dec 31, 2011)

I have had to nurse a few of mine too, so just hang in there and do exactly what you are doing because

it's the only thing you can do.

As far as ever molting again, I dont think it will be able to!!

I think it will stop taking food, will not molt, and die.

Sorry for the dreary prognosis, but as long as it's eating and pooping, all is fine.

P.S. I will NOT kill any animal that is eating, even if I have to put it in their mouth!!


----------



## patrickfraser (Dec 31, 2011)

I don't sit outside the freezer and wait, but I do have a special pottery freezer "vessel" that they are placed in before they go into the freezer. I believe it gradually cools the "contents" to freezing without being such a drastic shock to them. It's a little silly, but it's just a little something extra that is no extra work. Even a bug deserves to end their life with dignity and respect.


----------



## Krissim Klaw (Dec 31, 2011)

jcal said:


> I think people jump to the freezer idea because at some point it becomes more about our wants and desires over the mantis. Quality of life plays into this. I don't own the bug so i can't speak for it, But I would rather freeze than to let suffer slowly.


I have euthanized several of my pets over the years though I've never done so by sticking them in the freezer.



PhilinYuma said:


> I would suggest, knowing that this may cost me my life, that keeping mantids is first and last about the owner's needs and desires.


Don't worry your post won't cost you your life, just your head.  Interestingly I am one of those people that often skips mating because I don't want to risk my boys. Of course then there is the other part of me that questions what the boys would want. Most seem pretty eager to take the risk if left to their own devices. Of course us silly humans like to empathize toward critters the way it suits us best. We also tend to emphasize from the perspective of a human because well most of us at least on here are humans. Sure I could quickly kill my crickets before feeding to lessen their suffering but I don't because I really dislike doing it even though I have in the past for injured mantises and hand rearing song birds.

One of the things I dislike about the freezer is shutting them off alone. It doesn't help that even with their primordial senses they do tend to react to sudden temperature drops. If one wants to humanely put one down is the freezer even the kindest way? Wouldn't a full body squash be a lot quicker and less stressful? Out of the two the freezer would certainly be a lot easier on me but I'm not sure what would seem most humane to a mantis.

Even if it is for my own personal gratification, I like to be there for all my pets when they pass. For me being humane means sticking a soft blanket under my mantises plant when I see their legs are getting ready to go because their body is shutting down from old age. That way they won't have far to fall and when they do they will have a soft spot to land. I always have a bit of vigil when mine are passing. They are out by my side as they go. Mantises don't tend to linger once it is time and there has only been a couple situations where I have considered speeding things up.


----------



## Bryce08 (Dec 31, 2011)

my giant asian i have fell, from the side of the cage(didnt choose a good spot) but anyways, he ended up molting about 80% of his molt into l3 on the ground not standing up, he was on his side. i was going to pin or glue the dead skin to the top to help him, but as i watched he was doing just fine...so i left him. he made it just fine, but he wasnt in the situation that yours in in with having a total mis-molt. GOOD LUCK in w/e you end up doing.

I would just say if it comes down to having to let her molt on the ground try to make sure there is plenty to grab and pull/push off of. maybe you can even just set somthing at an incline downward instead of completly hanging pr pinning her up.


----------



## frogparty (Dec 31, 2011)

In the frog hobby we don't freeze animals, we put a drop of benzocaine on their heads as its considered more humane than freezing. However I don't think it would work for insects as they don't absorb material cutaneously.


----------



## Precarious (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm sad to say it doesn't not look good. I have had several mantids mismolt badly and put tremendous effort into attempting to rehabilitate them. I can tell you from experience that glue is NOT an option. They will twist or pull off the trapped appendages. Plus if the glue penetrates down to the new skin it totally defeats the purpose.

I would say your only hope is to keep a close eye 24/7 and hope you spot when it begins to molt then hold it upside-down. I tried this with a Mega Mantis sub-adult male. Unfortunately, I didn't notice until he was halfway through the process and he did not make it. You would literally have to watch for the skin to begin to separate. Not an east task.

And I've gotta say, ###### is wrong with people saying cruel sh*t at the first opportunity even after you clearly stated not to?


----------



## Termite48 (Jan 9, 2012)

I am once again a Johnny Come Lately in this thread about what to do with this poor mantid and in general, what to do with any mantid that is injured or ill, or too old. It is a chance for us to see what it is like to "play God". I do not mean it is wrong for us to assume such power, but we do have it over the critters. To me, each does what he wants or needs to do in the situation. I once had to put down a horse because her injury was beyond my means to tend to in a professional manner. I could not take care of the horses need. Does this mean that if the horse was Secretariat, there would not be the means to cause the horse injury to take on a greater significance. Of course not. Almost all we do has dollar signs attached to it in some way. When there are many other options, we look at a sick animal in a different way, than when that animal or pet, is one of a kind, or seemingly so, to us. Each of us evaluates these mishaps in the light of his (owner's) own situation. If there is an injured Chinese mantis nymph and there are 200 other ones waiting for you attention, what can or should you do. If you have only one breeding pair of Orchids, even the slightest injury causes us such stress and receives our full attention. So in the end it is the case that each of us evaluates all that happens in our world and does what he/she can do to best deal with the situation. There was a song out in the 80s or 90s which I grew to detest on Karaoke nights, call "I Will Survive". I think that we all want to survive in this hobby and sometimes that means a walk to the freezer or a drop of benzocaine. The best to you all!


----------



## patrickfraser (Jan 9, 2012)

That song is classic disco from the late 70's. Gloria Gaynor ROCKS! unk: Disco down :taz:


----------



## sinensispsyched (Jan 9, 2012)

Rock on! :rockon: unk: 

Sorry to get off topic, but I really don't know what to do about your mantis. Maybe once he/she starts molting, you can duct tape it to the top via the legs, but you would have to be careful to not connect to the new skin.

Has this already been mentioned?


----------



## LLCoolJew (Jan 11, 2012)

Thanks everyone! Tried to keep a close eye on her to catch the molt, but went for a run, came back, and it was already in progress. She didn't make it. Bummer


----------



## agent A (Jan 11, 2012)




----------



## Precarious (Jan 11, 2012)

LLCoolJew said:


> Thanks everyone! Tried to keep a close eye on her to catch the molt, but went for a run, came back, and it was already in progress. She didn't make it. Bummer


Sorry to hear that. I know exactly how you feel having gone through this myself. I put so much time and care into hand feeding between molts. It really hurt. And then the Idolo thing on top of this.  

Hope your visit to the California Academy of Sciences at least gives you a smile. :whistling:


----------



## sinensispsyched (Jan 12, 2012)

I'm real sorry about your loss. It sounds like you did the best that you could in this situation, though. Even though it died, I give you credit for hanging in until the end.


----------



## Mantiskid (Jan 12, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Could you perhaps secure it to the lid of the container with superglue and feed her via tongs until its ready to molt?


_WHAT??????????_  NO!Do not do this,EVER!I had one of my chinese nymphs die from getting stuck to scotch tape,could you imagine what superglue would do?!Also don't kill him.It's not worth it.She should be sort of back to normal after she molts 1 or 2 more times.Although nothing as severe as what happened to your nymph has happened to mine, I have had nymphs with disfigured legs, antennae and so on that are fine after 1 molt.Let me know how she's doing.

LOL

P.S.LLCoolJew You live really close to me!I live near Oakland.


----------

