# Selective breeding for new traits?



## Bugmankeith (Jan 28, 2015)

Has anyone selective bred multiple generations of mantids to get a certain trait to show up?

Roaches are kind of related to mantids, and hissing roaches have been bred to have larger than average sizes and color morphs.

Let's take the chinese mantis as they are easy to breed and readily available, they come in brown and green form, but if you look closely each individual has slight pattern or color variations, this species rarely has some with splotches of yellow or pink. What if you selective bred the ones with pink splotches to one another for a few generations, you think eventually you'd have a predictable percentage of pink chinese mantids?

Or the orchid mantis. Males are tiny, what if you only bred large males, over time perhaps average male size could increase. You could even breed large males to smaller females so over time the males could be similar or even larger than the females!

So anyone going to try to breed new traits?


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## dmina (Jan 29, 2015)

Interesting....I did this when I bred birds...

I have 3 green female Ghosts.. and have recently acquired a male Ghost that has a very distinct green hue to him... So I am very excited to breed him with my green females. To see if they have offspring that will be more green... or at least more of the females will be green..

I also have a brown male &amp; female siblings (related to the green females)... I am going to breed the 2 of them... and see the ratio of green offspring between the pairs.

So I guess my answer is yes... I am sure someone has already tried this experiment already... but I will try it again.


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## LAME (Jan 29, 2015)

I'd like a yellow Tenodera!

It is good question, kind of like the "Color Test" I plan on running on a few S.Carolina nymphs.... Whenever it decides to hatch.


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## FraidyCat (Feb 17, 2016)

Great question! very interested in this kind of stuff, it wouldn't be impossible and in time would be quite lucrative selling-wise - especially in areas with tight mantis restrictions. I know that this worked out with snakes very well and theres a booming economy there, though im new to invert raising so im unsure how much someone is willing to pay for a pretty mantid  

I think the success of selective breeding  depends on how badly mantids are affected by inbreeding, how many genes they have, and if the color irregularities are linked to diet or habitat in place of genes. If its diet/habitat, you couldn't breed them for colour, though shape could be altered. 

I know that I, for one, would love a pink chinese! the hue is the whole reason im pining for orchid mantises, and its something I'd be interested in. Could you imagine an electric blue orchid? or an albino violin? the possibilities are endless.


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## happy1892 (Feb 17, 2016)

I think they've already done albino or pale colored violins.  Precarious333 made a video of some hatching.  How about a pink S. limbata?  I heard something like that.  If it's true then I wonder if it's some weird mutation like the pink katydid or just selective breeding to gradually get brighter pinkish individuals.  The S. carolina go everywhere in colors.  lol


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## Krissim Klaw (Feb 17, 2016)

The only thing I would be interested in breeding for would be rather hard to breed for and that is longevity.


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## Extrememantid (Feb 17, 2016)

Or, you could leave them the way they are and not go the route snakes did lol.


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## mantiseater (Feb 17, 2016)

happy1892 said:


> I think they've already done albino or pale colored violins.  Precarious333 made a video of some hatching.  How about a pink S. limbata?  I heard something like that.  If it's true then I wonder if it's some weird mutation like the pink katydid or just selective breeding to gradually get brighter pinkish individuals.  The S. carolina go everywhere in colors.  lol


Violins just hatch white anyway then eventually turn brown or green  and if a mantis is a strange color than it is most likely just an uncommon color morph.


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## happy1892 (Feb 18, 2016)

mantiseater said:


> Violins just hatch white anyway then eventually turn brown or green  and if a mantis is a strange color than it is most likely just an uncommon color morph.


Hmm... I thought I read he had albino violins.  Did he make a mistake or am I remember incorrectly?


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## Extrememantid (Feb 18, 2016)

Is Albinism even possible in arthropods? Or even any invertebrates? I've always been told it's not possible, and I don't remember hearing or seeing a case of albinism, only fresh moults and hatches.


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## Ghost_Keeper (Feb 18, 2016)

Lobsters have been known to be albino, so I think it may be possible, but crustaceans are far more advanced than mantids.


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## Bugmankeith (Feb 18, 2016)

Extrememantid said:


> Or, you could leave them the way they are and not go the route snakes did lol.


Snakes and mantids are like apples and oranges, totally different. Morally breeding different colored insects is nothing bad, it would make the hobby even more exciting. People are breeding color morphs of hissing cockroaches and Dubia cockroaches as we speak a matter of fact! ?


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## Extrememantid (Feb 18, 2016)

Bugmankeith said:


> Snakes and mantids are like apples and oranges, totally different. Morally breeding different colored insects is nothing bad, it would make the hobby even more exciting. People are breeding color morphs of hissing cockroaches and Dubia cockroaches as we speak a matter of fact! ?


I feel the opposite. To me leaving the animals as is and appreciating them for what they are is what the hobby is about, so many species are so magnificent as is. It's one thing if it's a naturally occurring color form, but I don't want to see them make a complete change. We should focus on successfully breeding and rearing the species that aren't really in culture yet and the species that are a challenge to keep before we start messing around with morphs and genetics.


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## DeShawn (Feb 19, 2016)

I know for sure selectively breeding for color in some mantid species is possible.  I selectively bred Hierodula grandis for several generations to get mostly cream colored nymphs (I still have a few pics), and after several generations of selectively breeding ghosts you can get a majority of green or dark brown nymphs (I could never get the tan color to work though).  I never tried for size though.  I did run in to major issues with a high rate of nymphs dying seemingly for no reason shortly after hatching.  I am guessing due to the inbreeding?  It was just a fun little project that took only a few generations to accomplish.

I personally see no problem with it.  I would even love to selectively cross breed and create new species!  We have tampered with selective breeding of all kinds of animals and insects to get certain desired results, why not do it with my favorite insect?  Now, releasing them into the wild, or crossing 2 closely related species and selling the nymphs (mislabeling) would of course be wrong, but for captivity, and if done right... go for it.


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## Extrememantid (Feb 19, 2016)

It won't be done right though, some inexperienced person will start selling them as a mislabeled species which could totally mess things up. Breeding for a certain shade or colour is one thing, but trying to make new species is never a good idea, even subspecies is bad. If you look at reptiles like Mniargekko chahoua, people used to breed the mainland forms to the Pine Isle animals which totally mucked up the genetics, and now many believe there's no such thing as a pure animal. It's been done a few times "successfully" in snakes but even then, reproducing those animals will likely be a challenge. I really hope this doesn't become a thing, leaving species in their most natural form is best.


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## Bugmankeith (Feb 19, 2016)

Here is a topic on selective breeding color in Dubia roaches. The colors pop up naturally from time to time, and through selective breeding the breeder now has colonies of light colored roaches. The same can be done with mantids, it will just take longer. http://www.roachforum.com/index.php?showtopic=4564&amp;st=0


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## Extrememantid (Feb 19, 2016)

Bugmankeith said:


> Here is a topic on selective breeding color in Dubia roaches. The colors pop up naturally from time to time, and through selective breeding the breeder now has colonies of light colored roaches. The same can be done with mantids, it will just take longer. http://www.roachforum.com/index.php?showtopic=4564&amp;st=0


Yes that's rather interesting, and would be neat to see it done with say high pink Hymenopus coronatus or something. But that's one thing, trying to "create a new species" or Going for non naturally occurring color forms just ruins it for me at least. I still think we should focus on keeping and breeding the rare and challenging species before we start going that route.


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## DeShawn (Feb 19, 2016)

Yea, I am on the other side of the fence on this topic.  This was actually a very heated discussion I had in class (MANY a year ago).  Everyone has their own ideas of what's right and what's wrong.  My experience so far raising mantids and other inverts is that there are already many species in captivity right now that are not "pure".  Mislabeling and interbreeding closely related species was being done 15 years ago when I started collecting non native species and I am sure it is still being done often today.  There is no way to stop some irresponsible (or often just ignorant) person from doing that, but I don't think that means experienced and responsible people shouldn't.

I am sure most of us feed our mantids mutated fruitflies or curly wing flies.  Have a dog?  Unless you have a wolf, your dog isn't as pure as you think.  Many animals, insects, and plants started off as something else until we selectively bred them into what they are today or (simply tampered with their DNA), from dogs to cats and tomatoes to sweet corn. There are good points on both sides of the discussion, but remember... the ultimate culprit in interbreeding and experimenting with mutations is mother nature herself, and she screws it up more times before getting it right than we ever could.  Sometimes the result ends up giving the animal/insect/plant an edge, and sometimes it's just plain weird (Okapi comes to mind).  I'm not going to let her have all the fun!


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## sschind (Feb 21, 2016)

Bugmankeith said:


> Snakes and mantids are like apples and oranges, totally different. Morally breeding different colored insects is nothing bad, it would make the hobby even more exciting. People are breeding color morphs of hissing cockroaches and Dubia cockroaches as we speak a matter of fact! ?


I don't know that I see much of a difference at all.  Snakes and mantids are like apples and oranges in that one is a vertebrate and one is not but I don't see how the concept of selective breeding should be an issue with one and not the other. Why is breeding different colors of snakes morally wrong but Its OK with mantids.  Some people think breeding different colors of snakes together makes the hobby more exciting some people think it ruins it, or at least it ruins it for them.  So people are breeding different morphs of roaches, big deal, does that mean its OK.  To some people sure, to others no.  People are breeding different color morphs of snakes and have been for decades now.  Does that mean that's OK.  Again for some yes and for others no.  

IMO I don't like the morphs at all.  I don't care if its bugs or snakes or what have you.  It doesn't make the hobby more exciting for me at all and in many respects it takes away from my enjoyment of it.  That's just me.


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## spider_creations (May 5, 2016)

I know Kermit was selective breeding bigger and black ghost pretty cool right


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## Andrea (Jun 28, 2016)

I think that, until we know more about the why and how, we should not tinker too much DNA-wise. Sure, you get nice colours, a bigger animal...but what about possible negative traits hitchhiking on those desired traits? You'll have a bright pink 8 inch mantis which is unable to molt, for instance. Or is very aggressive to males..

The golden retriever was bred for colour and sweet disposition. But what traveled along with it? Hip dysplasia. Cancer.


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