# Won't eat dubia roaches



## Predatorhousepet (Mar 5, 2018)

After reading that dubia roaches are an alternative to flies and that they can be bred, I ordered 100 small/medium sized dubia roach nymphs in the hope I could breed them and stop having to buy bluebottle fly pupae regularly. However, none of my mantises seem all that interested in them. Because they live in planted terrariums I can't just let the roaches loose in their enclosures, they hide in the substrate and the mantises would never find them. I've tried to hand feed with tongs and put them in an empty deli cup temporarily but I can only get a half hearted swipe at best or if they do grab it they immediately drop it. It's not like the mantises aren't hungry, they will gladly accept a fly or waxworm if offered. I was thinking maybe it was the species I keep, as I've read some will only eat flying bugs and not crawlers. I have a Hierodula membranacea, 2 orchids, 3 ghosts and a shield mantis and the reaction to the roaches is pretty much the same with all of them. Have you had any luck feeding roaches to these particular species? Are there any tips you have for getting them to eat something they are unfamiliar with? I really don't want 100 roaches to go to waste. Besides flies are there any other feeder insects around 3/8" to 1/2" size I could try that might be better received? (ability to breed them is a big plus).


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## CosbyArt (Mar 5, 2018)

Predatorhousepet said:


> I ordered 100 small/medium sized dubia roach nymphs in the hope I could breed them and stop having to buy bluebottle fly pupae regularly. However, none of my mantises seem all that interested in them.


Sorry to hear that they are not working for you. Others have expressed the same problem in the past, and is often due to the Dubia being too large to use as feeders.

In that aspect only the larger mantid species can eat some of the middle/later Dubia instars. One option is to tear the larger roaches into pieces for the mantids, or simply let the larger roaches breed and die using the smaller new instars.



Predatorhousepet said:


> Besides flies are there any other feeder insects around 3/8" to 1/2" size I could try that might be better received?


The other feeder culture options are Black Soldier flies (Hermetia illucens), Crickets (Acheta domesticus or Gryllodes sigillatus), and Waxworms (Achroia grisella and Galleria mellonella) as moths. Waxworms though are not an ideal main diet (due to high fat and little else), but can help offset bottle flies. The same is true with Mealworms (Tenebrio molitor) if your mantids will eat them, but not as the only feeder.

Other roaches are also a option such as the smaller Green Banana Roach (Panchlora nivea). The Turkistan roach aka Red Runners or Lats (Shelfordella lateralis, formerly Blatta lateralis), is toted as the "cricket replacement". However, unlike a cricket that can only breed by laying eggs in dirt/sand and can not infest a home, the Turkistan/Red Runner can very easily become a home pest - see here.

Another common one is Lobster roaches (Nauphoeta cinerea) due to their soft bodies, but get to 1.25" as adults so nearly the same as Dubia. They can also climb, and like nearly any roach can be a home pest. In that aspect if you are interesting in roaches I would suggest looking at out sister forum RoachForum.com for guidance on roach species. If on that forum though I'd suggest some tact as they primarily keep them as pets, much like someone coming to our forum asking about mantids as lizard feeders.  

The other options are continuing to buy feeders online like the bottle flies, or capturing feeders outdoors yourself when possible in warmer weather. Fly traps, aerial/sweeper nets, and beating sheets are good ways to capture feeders, but can carry a small risk of biological/chemical/pest issue (however in the last few years I have not had a problem or heard of one). Besides having to collect feeders daily, or regularly, for a few minutes to an hour depending on your needs, it is not as convenient as a feeder culture of course.


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## Predatorhousepet (Mar 5, 2018)

The roaches I bought vary in size from very small, less than 1/4" to just over 1/2" so I have a variety of sizes. I'll try offering the smaller sized ones and tearing apart the larger ones to see if that helps. Can black soldier flies be bred? I was looking at someone selling the larvae last night and wondered if I let them pupate into adult forms if the mantises would eat them and if they could be bred. I am currently waiting for a batch of pupated waxworms to turn into moths. I also wondered how hard it would be to actually breed the waxworms. I was planning on doing more research on that but it'd be nice to know if anyone here has successfully bred either waxworms or black soldier flies. I did order some more blue bottle fly pupae anyway for the meantime until I can figure out something more cost effective.


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## CosbyArt (Mar 6, 2018)

Predatorhousepet said:


> I also wondered how hard it would be to actually breed the waxworms. I was planning on doing more research on that but it'd be nice to know if anyone here has successfully bred either waxworms or black soldier flies.


Yes several of us have bred the species you listed, and posted experiences and information in the links given in my original post...


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## Predatorhousepet (Mar 6, 2018)

Thanks, I'll check out the links you posted. I was able to get all of my mantises to accept a roach by choosing smaller specimens and cutting the heads off then offering with tweezers. However, the only way I can get them to take them from me is if they get a taste of the goo and once they realize they are tasty they'll grab onto it to hold it. While I'm glad the dubias won't go to waste now, I would much prefer the mantises be able to catch food on their own and not be coaxed into it, I have a feeling I might end up overfeeding that way. For this reason dubias probably still won't be their primary food source but I might still try to raise a colony if I have enough left over by the time the oldest ones mature to adults. As for the waxworms, are the moths more nutritious than the larvae or are they mostly fat too? I did order some waxworms and black soldier fly larvae, going to let them change to adults &amp; if the mantises like them I'll try breeding them. I used to breed crickets for my salamanders many years ago but the crickets were noisy and smelled bad so I'd rather not do that again but I guess they are my last resort if I can't find something else better. Hopefully the BSFs and waxworm moths work out.


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## bugboymark (Mar 6, 2018)

Same problem with roaches (red runners) here!  Three of the "bigger" species (H. venosa, S. lineola, S. gastrica), and they're all pretty hit or miss with their willingness to hunt and capture a roach unless it's offered with tweezers. And even then, it's about 50/50. I'm positive it's not a size issue either, as the roaches I have are all still no bigger than the flies or crickets my mantises will aggressively pursue. 

I'm not giving up on them yet...but I really hoped the crickets would be a good change and a big hit. I've also been a little burned with how often I have to buy flies, and how some of my bb fly pupae are inconsistent (some hatch well...some batches are complete duds). Regardless, I'll keep the roaches around for as long as possible.  I'm sure they will eventually serve their purpose!  My guess is that my mantises would quickly get over their roach aversion if I let them go a few days without being fed anything else.


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## Bathory (Mar 6, 2018)

I noticed with my mantids that if they won't take a feeder and I cut it up so they realise it's food sooner or later they will grab a whole live one. This worked with wax worms and crickets but I didn't try it with roaches as my mantids seemed to grab them anyway. For roaches I just got some small dubia nymphs in a plastic container and offered them like that. I was especially surprised at my gongy who would grab several small dubias if I let her hang upside down from my hand over a small container of them (I mean it took like 10 minutes to get her relaxed enough to grab them but she did it).


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## Predatorhousepet (Mar 6, 2018)

Bathory said:


> For roaches I just got some small dubia nymphs in a plastic container and offered them like that. I was especially surprised at my gongy who would grab several small dubias if I let her hang upside down from my hand over a small container of them (I mean it took like 10 minutes to get her relaxed enough to grab them but she did it).


I did try putting a couple dubia in an empty deli cup with the mantises but they pretty much ignored them...mostly because the roaches just sat there not moving.



bugboymark said:


> Same problem with roaches (red runners) here!  Three of the "bigger" species (H. venosa, S. lineola, S. gastrica), and they're all pretty hit or miss with their willingness to hunt and capture a roach unless it's offered with tweezers. And even then, it's about 50/50. I'm positive it's not a size issue either, as the roaches I have are all still no bigger than the flies or crickets my mantises will aggressively pursue.
> 
> I've also been a little burned with how often I have to buy flies, and how some of my bb fly pupae are inconsistent (some hatch well...some batches are complete duds).


Yeah, size itself doesn't seem to be the factor but rather how little the roaches move and how they move when they do. Dubias also have a tough outer shell on top that might be discouraging them as well. The only way I can get them to realize they are food is by putting the goo to the mantis's mouths.

BB flies would be fine as a food source but keeping a large amount of pupa viable long enough to be cost effective is tricky.


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## Krissim Klaw (Mar 6, 2018)

I feed roaches and have never had a problem with getting excitement although I haven't had those particular species of mantises or those roaches. I use P Nivea. I like how light bodied they are. I imagine part of the problem is the mantises likely aren't really keying into the roaches as food. I feed mine in white Dixie cups so the roach contrast a lot. I will pop the cup a bit to make sure the roach is moving. Once any of my crew spot them they go in hungrily and eat with relish. Yesterday I gave five of my 3rd instar Chinese mantises their first roach and they all look like porkers now. Probably should have gone a bit smaller with their first roach meal. XD


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## Predatorhousepet (Mar 9, 2018)

I've noticed that my sub-adult Hierodula will take the largest roaches alive &amp; whole if they've freshly molted. Maybe the tough outer shell is part of the reason they don't recognize them as food.


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## Mantis Lady (Mar 27, 2018)

I saw my pet store was selling dubia's. For some variation of food I decided to buy a box with 14 to try out if she would like them. She had never seen one in her life. She refused to take it. She was slapping it with her frontlegs. so decided to give her a cricket she ate if she had never eaten before.

I took midium size, The large ones were too huge. Maybe i should offer her a dubia again after her next molt that is somewhere  next week.


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## Predatorhousepet (Mar 27, 2018)

Yeah, the only way I can get any of mine to eat one is to cut the head off &amp; sneak it to their mouth to let them taste the goo or to offer a freshly molted white roach. Other than that they will slap them away....and I know I'm just anthropomorphizing them but I swear they act like it's as if they are offended I even tried to offer it in the first place. The dubia colony seems to be holding up well with very little upkeep so it's a shame the mantises don't like them.

My hierodula finally molted to adult a few days ago and now she's a bit too big for blue bottle flies so I tried one of the larger dubia roaches and I had to cut the head off for her to eat it. I'm kinda scrambling to find large enough prey for her, I had no idea just how big she would get after her final molt, she had to have more than doubled in size. Other than large crickets and the dubia roaches I don't know what else to offer her. I had some large mealworms coming but now I'm not sure they'll be big enough.


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## Mantis Lady (Mar 27, 2018)

Maybe I should try that too, taking the head off the roach and try to feed it that way. Don't know if my hierodula will grab it because it won't move then. But not today or her belly will explode I think.  She ate a very juicy cricket today.


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## TheShadyMantid (Mar 28, 2018)

Oh, it will still move


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## Mantis Lady (Mar 29, 2018)

Cochise is eating one now, Did the 2 of them in a box and forced the roach to move and Cochise grabbed it. The roach is still moving a lot whitout it's head.


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## Mintmantis (Apr 2, 2018)

My mantid's don't much like roaches either. I've only had a couple of miomantis caffra who would tackle a roach. One roach was bigger than her...that was a battle! Otherwise it seems flies are THE most popular meal.


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## Mantis Lady (Apr 21, 2018)

Pff try to get Cochise to eat a dubia after her molt, but nope, she want a cricket. I did let walk the roach before her, even hold  the roach in tweezers and move it before her.  She just follows the movements but does nothing. She just want to eat a boring cricket. She is a difficult eater like my dog. &lt;_&lt;


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## Predatorhousepet (Apr 21, 2018)

I ordered some Red Runner (Turkistan) roaches because they have softer bodies than dubias and SUCCESS! All my mantises big enough to eat them (Giant Asian, Orchid, Shield, Ghost) seem to really enjoy them and will quickly take them from feeding tongs as soon as I offer them. This is great because they don't smell or make noise like crickets, eat just about anything and don't die as easily. I've had a colony for a few weeks now and have had zero casualties (other than what the mantises eat.) And unlike flies they are supposed to be very easy to breed so I don't have to keep ordering them every few weeks. I bought 100 red runner roaches for $13 shipping included from a seller on eBay and received them the very next day even though he sent them first class (he lives in the same state but not close) but I don't know if 100 is enough for them to repopulate while feeding 6 adult mantises so I'm still regularly ordering flies for now until they can establish themselves.


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## Mantis Lady (Apr 21, 2018)

don't know if they have red runners at my petstore. i can always look.

*B*ut I want cochise to eat the dubias too. I have still 11 of those at home  Maybe i should show Cochise the dubia's more often now so she get used to see them and start seeing them as food. She has eaten 1 of them before.


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## Krissim Klaw (Apr 21, 2018)

One trick you can try is flipping the roach on its back on a smooth surface so it flails around a bit. The dubia always seemed on the large side for mantises so it is possible it is the size more than the roaches depending on the size you are feeding.


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## Predatorhousepet (Apr 22, 2018)

I have 6 adult mantises of varying sizes and none of them are interested in any of the small to medium dubia I have offered but when I offered Red Runners of the same size I get an entirely different reaction. I'm convinced they do not like them for two reasons...dubias have a hard exterior shell (same reason the mantises don't try to eat the isopods living with them) and also because dubias don't move much...the mantises don't register they are prey (flipping them over like you suggested might help with that part.) The only way I have gotten any of my mantises to accept a whole live dubia is when the roach is freshly molted and still has a soft body (a freshly molted dubia is white.) The other way I can get them to eat one is by cutting off the dubias head and putting the resulting goo oozing out to their mouth, once they taste it they will usually take it from me. However, I don't like forcing them to eat in this way unless necessary, I'd much rather they hunt their food or at least decide to take their prey from feeding tongs on their own. I want them to eat because they are hungry and using their natural hunting instincts not because I literally shoved food in in their mouth.


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## Mantis Lady (Apr 23, 2018)

Krissim Klaw said:


> One trick you can try is flipping the roach on its back on a smooth surface so it flails around a bit. The dubia always seemed on the large side for mantises so it is possible it is the size more than the roaches depending on the size you are feeding.


That I have done too, showing Cochise the the roach belly and moving legs. I don't think it is the size. Cochise is an adult hierodula (8 cm) and the roaches are medium sized.



> The only way I have gotten any of my mantises to accept a whole live dubia is when the roach is freshly molted and still has a soft body (a freshly molted dubia is white.) The other way I can get them to eat one is by cutting off the dubias head and putting the resulting goo oozing out to their mouth, once they taste it they will usually take it from me.


 Will they hunt the next dubia after that?  i will try later again to feed cochise a dubia. eating only crickets is boring, want to show her there is more to eat than crickets.


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## Predatorhousepet (Apr 23, 2018)

Little Mantis said:


> Will they hunt the next dubia after that?


Nope. Even when they realize they taste good they won't go after the next one, they just dont trigger a hunting response.


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## Mantis Lady (Apr 23, 2018)

cochise finally grabbed one I laid on his back and started to move to turn itself on it's legs again and she ate the whole thing except its stomach I think. Wondering if she will grab one again after a few days. (she has a nice full belly now.)


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## Mantis Lady (Apr 29, 2018)

Cochise is used to them now. She knows they are dinner and grabs it directly now when i put 1 in front of her. Problem solved.


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## Predatorhousepet (Apr 29, 2018)

That's interesting that you were able to "train" her to eat them through sheer persistence.


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## MantisGirl13 (Apr 30, 2018)

My ghosts usually devour them! I pick it apart and hand feed them, putting the white, fat parts up to their mouths to let them taste it, and then I wait for them to grab it.


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## Mantis Lady (May 1, 2018)

Killing them before feeding doesnt work, Cochise really wants to have living food. and think she likes the abdomen of her prey, she eats that as last and always head first.


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## MantisGirl13 (May 1, 2018)

I'm glad that Cochise is eating!

- MantisGirl13


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