# Pnigomantis medioconstricta mismolt



## Chaos (Sep 29, 2016)

Hey everyone,

I bought a female P. medioconstricta nymph about two weeks ago. She was around L4 at the time and, as luck would have it, she decided to molt during transit. Luckily, she came out mostly all right (I was happy she made it at all, really). However, her left raptorial is all bent out of shape - quite literally. She has a healthy appetite, though, and she happily snacks on flies and other prey items, as mantids are wont to do.

What are her chances of molting succesfully? I truly hope she'll be able to repair her wonky arm by the next molt or two. What is everyone's experience on this issue?

Thanks.

-Chaos


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## CosbyArt (Sep 29, 2016)

Her chances of molting successfully should be 75% or better - I've had some mantids in really bad shape (missing limbs, bent limbs, abnormal abdomens, and more) that molted and came out as a new mantis.  Missing limbs though take generally two molts to return to a nearly normal state.

As you say her left raptorial forearm is bent, it may pose a problem. If the bend is significant it may get trapped while she is trying to molt, which if it does become trapped will lead to even more problems with the next molt or her death. If you could post a photo of her arm, or a link to a photo, that would answer the question of what to expect and what if anything can be done to help her.


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## Chaos (Sep 30, 2016)

My macro is not the best, but you can see the left raptorial sticking out at a 90° angle. Like you said, there's a chance she gets trapped during the molting process, but I strongly hope that won't be the case. Molting is stressful enough as it is, no need for added risk factors. Though I guess there isn't much I can do aside from waiting and keeping my fingers crossed?


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## CosbyArt (Oct 1, 2016)

Sorry to see that it is the kind of issue that leads to trapped mantises in molts.  It is at such a strange angle she will likely have problems pulling her arm free. Many keepers will leave their mantis be in such cases, and hope for the best. Personally any I left be typically die from such deformities causing them to become trapped in a molt (which leads to death from them suffocating in the molting process).

As the arm is a extreme case I am listing the only methods I know that can help her. The methods are controversial to many, however, they can in fact save your mantis from dying. Use which ever method you prefer, as I can understand any decision as it can be difficult to make (and especially do).

There are two ways to prevent her death by molting problems. The first is to let her be and watch her closely for her molting. When she molts and the arm does become trapped you will have to use sharp scissors and cut the old exoskeleton to free her; however, as this is a arm, it is one of the first things pulled free in molts so there may not be enough room to cut the exoskeleton.

If it happens that you can not cut the old exoskeleton and she is trapped, the only alternative is to cut off her arm, amputating it as close to her body as possible. That could save her life, but having her arm removed during a molt may likely cause her to fall and lead to further problems (or her death). Also if you have to remove her entire arm, it will not regrow, at best she will likely develop a small stump arm.

The second option is to cut off the arm now, at her "elbow" (leaving part of her arm intact, removing just the bent part) so it has a chance to regrow in the few remaining molts before adulthood. The best way is to place the scissors on the correct location slowly, then ensuring it is placed properly do the cut in one single forceful manner to cause as little pain/damage as possible in this situation.

It sounds cruel but I've been forced to do it as well, and is the safest method to ensure she survives. I say safest as she will not become stuck in a molt and you are unable to help (as they can molt anytime typically early morning or early evenings (sunrise or sunset)), it has time to heal up a bit before molting, there is no worry of knocking her loose during the molt trying to cut it free, and such.

The cut arm will quit bleeding and develop a scab, and I recommend you put honey on the cut limb as it is a natural antiseptic as soon as you can after cutting it. She will heal up and adjust to having just one arm to catch prey in time - but likely is use to that now already as she can not use her arm. In the meantime you can feed her using tweezers until she figures out how to catch her own prey. In a few molts her arm should regrow enough to return to a usable arm, although it will never be the same size or appearance.

I wish you both the best, and hope she can pull it free on her own, but sadly I don't think that is possible. If you do amputate the arm she will return to her normal behavior/tameness within a few days to a week at most - once it heals up. Even if the arm does not regrow she should live a long happy life, as I had a male Ghost that only had one arm his entire life. His name was Bandit and was able to catch his own flies and crickets just with one arm, you can see photos of him in my thread here.


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## Chaos (Oct 7, 2016)

I feared you might suggest amputating her raptorial, but I also feel like this is actually the best option. I honestly don't know how I'd go about cutting her exoskeleton mid-molt and if I messed it up, I don't think I could get over the guilt. Have you ever tried this method before?

Playing the surgeon of course brings up the issue of pain in invertebrates. I remember reading somewhere that insects' limbs are designed to break off easily at the trochanter, so I suppose any pain they might feel is minimal?


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## CosbyArt (Oct 7, 2016)

Chaos said:


> I feared you might suggest amputating her raptorial, but I also feel like this is actually the best option. I honestly don't know how I'd go about cutting her exoskeleton mid-molt and if I messed it up, I don't think I could get over the guilt. Have you ever tried this method before?
> 
> Playing the surgeon of course brings up the issue of pain in invertebrates. I remember reading somewhere that insects' limbs are designed to break off easily at the trochanter, so I suppose any pain they might feel is minimal?


With such a twisted arm it seems it is the only way to ensure it will survive, as it comes down to the missing a forearm or dying in the next molt result. Lately there have been a few serious problems (like this), and many will not respond. As I know you can help it, rather than the just letting "nature run it's course" and letting it risk dying, I felt it necessary to respond even though I am likely getting cast as a bringer of bad news.

Yes I have amputated badly twisted legs before as needed, but no I haven't tried to catch them molting and assisting them with legs if needed then (as I know I would likely miss the molt, and didn't want to put them into a "do or die" type of molt unnecessarily). I wasn't for sure which you were asking about, so I answered both.  I have though helped some mantises in the past during a molt that got stuck or fell, with some surviving, but those tend to be few as they have to be spotted at the right moment and not all can be helped (especially the ones that fall).

If you do amputate, then I recommend you rub on some flour or cornmeal to help the blood clot on the wound faster (as it will help seal it up some, and slow down the flow of blood). Just in case your wondering no, the small amount of bleeding should not negatively affect your mantis.

Pain is one thing it seems no one still knows if insects can truly feel or not.

Of course some who try and give insects human traits/emotions will say yes, but it isn't that simple as they are completely different than humans. Insects seem to pull away from the cause of pain (for example a tarsi/foot trapped in a closed lid), likely a involuntary movement, or perhaps simply trying to free it as they do not understand how it is stuck and will stop only after they break off the trapped tarsi/foot. As far as registering the pain it becomes a unknown factor (and has some serious consequences/results if it can be said definitely one way or the other really).

If your up for some reading take a look at the Ask a Entomologist.com website article Do Insects Feel Pain, or one from the Relax. I'm a Entomologist Do Insects Feel Pain. They explain what pain is, how it travels, how it registers, what affect it has, etc. so they cover the topic well, and give plenty of links to backup their information; however, with both articles the ultimate answer is they can't say for sure if insects can or cannot feel pain and is the consensus found in the scientific community.


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## Chaos (Oct 10, 2016)

I snipped the poor beastie's forearm yesterday. It wasn't a fun thing to do, but ultimately, I'm very glad I decided to do it. I'm definitely not as nervous about her upcoming molt anymore. I'm excited to see how much of the raptorial she'll be able to regrow, actually, and even if she remains crippled, I'm happy that she gets to live. And she's a fighter, this one!

Thanks for the articles, they were an interesting read. I've read up on the topic a bit before and it always seems to come down to self-awareness and the psychological/emotional perception of pain.

Thanks for all your help; I really appreciate your thorough responses.


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## CosbyArt (Oct 11, 2016)

Chaos said:


> I snipped the poor beastie's forearm yesterday. It wasn't a fun thing to do, but ultimately, I'm very glad I decided to do it. I'm definitely not as nervous about her upcoming molt anymore. I'm excited to see how much of the raptorial she'll be able to regrow, actually, and even if she remains crippled, I'm happy that she gets to live. And she's a fighter, this one!
> 
> Thanks for the articles, they were an interesting read. I've read up on the topic a bit before and it always seems to come down to self-awareness and the psychological/emotional perception of pain.
> 
> Thanks for all your help; I really appreciate your thorough responses.


I'm glad to hear the arm won't be a issue for your mantis now, and she will have a chance to regrow it in time (now that you don't have to worry about a extreme molt case). If she is a fighter/active mantis she will be fine even if one armed, as mine was, but she should get some bit of a arm in a few molts.  

Your welcome for the help, and I wish you and your girl the best.


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## Chaos (Oct 23, 2016)

The little lady molted into a slightly bigger lady yesterday. Without an arm, true, but also without a hitch! I'm really happy she's doing so well despite her... eh, shortcomings.   Her left raptorial is still a bit black where I'd cut it off - does it make sense to re-apply some honey or is that only beneficial with fresh wounds?


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## CosbyArt (Oct 23, 2016)

Chaos said:


> The little lady molted into a slightly bigger lady yesterday. Without an arm, true, but also without a hitch! I'm really happy she's doing so well despite her... eh, shortcomings.   Her left raptorial is still a bit black where I'd cut it off - does it make sense to re-apply some honey or is that only beneficial with fresh wounds?


Glad to hear she molted without incident and is doing well.  

You can however I doubt the honey would help her arm as the wound should have been closed up during the molt.

Its likely that the arm did not have enough time for any repair to be done this molt. Hopefully on the next molt it will be partially repaired, but only time will tell if it is something she can repair or not (as some mantids will repair the damage and some don't seem to as mentioned previously). Either way she is healthy and molted problem free, so it was worth it.


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## Chaos (Oct 28, 2016)

Yeah, it was definitely worth it. I'm really grateful for your encouragement - I probably wouldn't have been confident enough to do it without extra support; and it would've been truly devastating if she hadn't made it through her molt. I know the little beastie will do just fine in captivity, so I don't feel too bad about her having just one arm. If anything, it adds to her character.    I'm actually curious to see how much of her limb she will regenerate. She looks to be 3-4 molts away from adulthood, so there's some chance of improvement.
Actually, the main reason I chose this species is due to their voracious reputation. She's currently living up to it; holding on to a fly as if it was a sandwich, happily munching away.


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## CosbyArt (Oct 29, 2016)

@Chaos More than happy to help you and your girl, your welcome for any thing I helped with. Great to hear she is doing so well and eating flies on her own too. Let me know from time to time how she does when she molts, or when you remember.  I'm interested to know her outcome, as with at least three molts left she should have plenty of time to repair it, if possible.


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## Chaos (Oct 29, 2016)

Sure thing! I'll keep you posted and add some pictures of her progress. ^^


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