# Substrate?



## Melophile (Jun 25, 2015)

Being a new mantis owner, I have a lot of questions come up in my mind.

One being, what is the purpose of substrate? What's the difference between getting substrate from a pet store and using regular garden soil that I can find in the potted plants in my backyard?


----------



## LAME (Jun 25, 2015)

Substrate holds more moisture, thus humidity. It also is more eye appealing than a paper towel.  

Many to choose from, if the budgets tight ill use just regular dirt from outside. You can also go to petco/petsmart and get cocofiber "pucks" that only cost about 3-4 dollars.

If using potting soil, id stick organic. Ensure that theres no pesticides within the mix.


----------



## hibiscusmile (Jun 26, 2015)

What are u using it for?


----------



## MantidBro (Jun 26, 2015)

LAME said:


> Substrate holds more moisture, thus humidity. It also is more eye appealing than a paper towel.
> 
> Many to choose from, if the budgets tight ill use just regular dirt from outside. You can also go to petco/petsmart and get cocofiber "pucks" that only cost about 3-4 dollars.
> 
> If using potting soil, id stick organic. Ensure that theres no pesticides within the mix.


Exactly as he said! XD


----------



## DETHCHEEZ (Jun 26, 2015)

I like to use orchid moss


----------



## CosbyArt (Jun 26, 2015)

Coconut fiber (and all it's derivatives power/puck/husks/shell/plantation soil/etc) is the most common; however a great alternative is sphagnum peat moss. After my local pet store was sold out of coconut for several weeks I gave up and found a large bale of the peat moss for about $10 at Lowes - and with some uncompressed in a 5 gallon bucket, it looks like the bale will refill the 5 gallon bucket about 20 times.






The only think I noticed is it has small pieces of sticks which I often remove, but can be left for a more natural substrate. The peat has about the same consistency as coconut fiber and works the same at holding humidity. A bonus too it doesn't have any molding problems, same as/perhaps better than coconut, so is a great alternative at 100th of the price tag.


----------



## MantidBro (Jun 28, 2015)

CosbyArt said:


> Coconut fiber (and all it's derivatives power/puck/husks/shell/plantation soil/etc) is the most common; however a great alternative is sphagnum peat moss. After my local pet store was sold out of coconut for several weeks I gave up and found a large bale of the peat moss for about $10 at Lowes - and with some uncompressed in a 5 gallon bucket, it looks like the bale will refill the 5 gallon bucket about 20 times.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, cant forget moss...! thats what i mainly use, although mine is field collected


----------



## csliv36 (Sep 14, 2015)

I was wondering the same thing! But I would like to add...

How often should the substrate be replaced?


----------



## CosbyArt (Sep 14, 2015)

csliv36 said:


> I was wondering the same thing! But I would like to add...
> 
> How often should the substrate be replaced?


Replaced for what reason?

After a mantid dies, or I change it to a bigger habitat, I will knock off the top layer of feeder leftovers from the substrate - if I don't have springtails in the habitat. Otherwise I typically don't, especially if it is a larger habitat with springtails (and sometimes isopods) they keep the substrate near spotless (within a day or two at most for large leftovers).


----------



## csliv36 (Sep 14, 2015)

Oh thank you. I was assuming that it would need replaced to keep it clean of the poo and bits of old food. Do I purchase these springtails? I could collect the isopods if needed. They're everywhere at my grandparents house. Thanks for helping. I'm new to this


----------



## CosbyArt (Sep 14, 2015)

csliv36 said:


> Oh thank you. I was assuming that it would need replaced to keep it clean of the poo and bits of old food. Do I purchase these springtails? I could collect the isopods if needed. They're everywhere at my grandparents house. Thanks for helping. I'm new to this


You can but it is more for aesthetics than any real need, unless moisture is too high (then mold can be a issue). If you have a cleaning crew of springtails especially, as they eat mold, you will not have any need as they keep it clean. Indeed springtails are best purchased and can be found at the usual places (direct links to springtails) BugsInCyberspace.com, MantisPets.com, and MantisPlace.com. Your welcome, everyone is new at some point, and I still am in many aspects.


----------



## Deacon (Sep 28, 2015)

Re: the peat moss, are you using the fluffy stuff or is it all ground up? If it's fluffy, don't you lose a lot of the non flying feeder insects? Can you use both isopods and springtails at the same time?

Do the springtails get out and infest houseplants? I've been using paper towels and I clean them twice a week which entails emptying out the cage! Need something easier.


----------



## CosbyArt (Sep 28, 2015)

Deacon said:


> Re: the peat moss, are you using the fluffy stuff or is it all ground up? If it's fluffy, don't you lose a lot of the non flying feeder insects? Can you use both isopods and springtails at the same time?
> 
> Do the springtails get out and infest houseplants? I've been using paper towels and I clean them twice a week which entails emptying out the cage! Need something easier.


It is all ground up (with some bits of sticks, bark, and such mixed in somewhat). It is a very dusty mix when taken out of the bag before I water it.

I've only noticed crickets digging in substrate if it is kept really moist, otherwise the peat moss collapses too easy for tunnels or for them to dig into (so they either don't bother or quit before they get anywhere). As such I haven't had any crickets or anything dig into substrate when they are added to a mantid habitat as feeders. Typically the crickets and such roam around a bit then run up the sticks, and my mantids get them either way (usually before they find the sticks at times). As some of my mantids reach their fill before running out of crickets, the crickets will sit in the bottom until the mantids want them, still haven't seen any digging.

Springtails are in all dirt naturally, and they even find a way to get in potted houseplant pots too (even if you don't culture springtails). I haven't heard of them being a nuisance or pest before either. I do try not to get them everywhere, but haven't seen any escaped springtails anywhere (they like it moist and would likely dry out on the carpet before they could crawl anywhere).

With the thin 1/3 to 1/2" layer of Sphagnum peat moss substrate I use I haven't bothered to clean my habitats myself except when the mantid dies. The springtails will die if the substrates gets too dry, and if that happens more can be added as needed.


----------



## Deacon (Sep 29, 2015)

So, ground peat moss, springtails and isopods---the cages don't smell after months having an adult mantis in them? Mine are in the kitchen...


----------



## CosbyArt (Sep 29, 2015)

Deacon said:


> So, ground peat moss, springtails and isopods---the cages don't smell after months having an adult mantis in them? Mine are in the kitchen...


No smells from any mantids ever. Only thing that has a smell in my hobby related things are the cricket tank (only slight if up close) and fruit fly cultures (only if you put your nose on the deli cups).  

Mantid frass is usually a dry pellet so nothing there, GB or BB fly bodies are too small and dry too quickly, only thing that may have a smell is cricket leftovers from a feeding mantid; however, if you have springtails and/or isopods everything will disappear too quickly anyway to have a smell. That said even without thriving springtails I haven't noticed a smell in a habitat.

Seems it is because most insects are so small they dry out too quickly to have a odor - and their "meat" is covered with a exoskeleton so it doesn't have a chance to spoil before it dries.

Why, have you ever noticed a smell?


----------



## Deacon (Sep 29, 2015)

My sense of smell does not exist (3 sinus surgeries.) However, my husband can smell (he noticed the crickets once but I no longer buy them.) I don't have a great space like you do so my two cages, flies, jars, etc are on my kitchen counter sharing space which is why I have to be kind of a neat freak about them. Using paper towels as I have been doing lets all those partially eaten things show. That's why I'm thinking the peat moss might look better.

At this point, with my only mantids being 11 wks (m) and 8 (f) I don't know how long they will be around. I mean is it worth changing things at this point (more bugs to buy, haha)? I am still hoping for an ooth, though.


----------



## CosbyArt (Sep 29, 2015)

Deacon said:


> My sense of smell does not exist (3 sinus surgeries.) However, my husband can smell (he noticed the crickets once but I no longer buy them.) I don't have a great space like you do so my two cages, flies, jars, etc are on my kitchen counter sharing space which is why I have to be kind of a neat freak about them. Using paper towels as I have been doing lets all those partially eaten things show. That's why I'm thinking the peat moss might look better.
> 
> At this point, with my only mantids being 11 wks (m) and 8 (f) I don't know how long they will be around. I mean is it worth changing things at this point (more bugs to buy, haha)? I am still hoping for an ooth, though.


Sorry to hear that. I understand the lose of smell a bit myself. I've had so many abscessed teeth for 10+ years the abscess and bacterial ate through my nose and bone so that I have a 3-4" nearly hollow area in my head, starting at my maxilla to just below my eyes. I found out when I finally got all my upper teeth removed surgically (they showed me x-rays of the damage, and had to stitch shut 3 openings in my maxilla/roof of my mouth area so I quit spitting in my nose when I ate lol).

About the only sense of smell I have is detecting strong chemicals really anymore. So for guidelines on smell I go by what my wife tells me (and others), and she says to tell you they don't stink.  So for smells if your husband doesn't complain I wouldn't worry. If nothing else ask me to test it - of course if he puts his nose on it that isn't the same as them being in the room.

A captive mantid lifespan of 12 months is common, with 8 to 10 months being typical (especially depending on species); however, some individual mantids can live 18 months or longer (yen_saw has some that have done that I've read).

How far you want to get into the hobby is up to you, but with your mantids being just over 2 months old they are just getting started.


----------



## Deacon (Sep 30, 2015)

OMG, I am so sorry to hear about your infections! I will never feel sorry for myself again! My problems started with a root canal and now my maxillary, ethmoids and sigmoids have all been stripped and made into one giant sinus on each side. Similar x-rays? I have a resistant bacteria and my infectious disease doctors have warned me it could eat through the bones into my brain. You are proof that bacteria do eat bone! Yuk! So sorry. So, you can't taste either?

Back to the mantids. So, I've been thinking my female with her prolapsed anus and my male who is struggling to hang with his missing tibia would be on the short end of life. Okay, so I went to get a block of peatmoss---I laughed all the way home as it's as big as half a bale of hay! I got it anyway..now for the springtails and isopods that I need to order.

fftopic:I also got the shelf liner you mentioned in one of your topics and it's waiting for me to glue into the lids of the cages. My lids are totally vented with little slots. With screen being the next layer, then the shelf liner, I am a little worried about air circulation as the lids are the only openings (plastic cages are about 8 X 12 X 10.) Will this work? Thanks for your impression.


----------



## CosbyArt (Sep 30, 2015)

Deacon said:


> OMG, I am so sorry to hear about your infections! I will never feel sorry for myself again! My problems started with a root canal and now my maxillary, ethmoids and sigmoids have all been stripped and made into one giant sinus on each side. Similar x-rays? I have a resistant bacteria and my infectious disease doctors have warned me it could eat through the bones into my brain. You are proof that bacteria do eat bone! Yuk! So sorry. So, you can't taste either?
> 
> Back to the mantids. So, I've been thinking my female with her prolapsed anus and my male who is struggling to hang with his missing tibia would be on the short end of life. Okay, so I went to get a block of peatmoss---I laughed all the way home as it's as big as half a bale of hay! I got it anyway..now for the springtails and isopods that I need to order.
> 
> fftopic:I also got the shelf liner you mentioned in one of your topics and it's waiting for me to glue into the lids of the cages. My lids are totally vented with little slots. With screen being the next layer, then the shelf liner, I am a little worried about air circulation as the lids are the only openings (plastic cages are about 8 X 12 X 10.) Will this work? Thanks for your impression.


Ah it's no big deal, I've dealt with it most of my life. Thankfully it is internal damage so I don't have any facial deformities or anything that stands out, and it just seems to affect my smell. I just figured it was time to say something as I've been getting asked about smells more lately for some reason and my wife laughs and says, "why in the world are they asking you?".  Funny what is hidden away when talking in text, but would show itself one way or another in real life.  

Indeed be careful with such a infection, it does take time but it can dissolve bone and other tissues. Sorry to hear yours is so severe, and even resistant. I imagine the surgery gets painful and tiresome, but be sure to do what you can.

Yeah the oral surgeon was surprised by the amount of damage and asked me lots of questions after the x-rays. He wanted me to see another specialist for it too, but heck I had to wait forever to afford to see him (some of my mom's semi-wreak settlement money, left her handicapped) and what would they say - that I can't smell. Smell and taste are a weird thing to explain, as it seems my brain has rewired itself to make use of what little bit I do have - one way to explain it would be I get the data almost in the form of colors or by the amount it burns my nose. Basically everything tends to have a stale smell with some having a almost wet odor (but there is nothing distinguishable about it), but if I concentrate on wet odors up close I can sometimes pick out things such some strong spices. Taste wise I tend to go by texture/warmth/firmness, if I don't see what I am eating I likely would guess very wrong. But as it is so close to my nose while eating I can usually detect some faint scents/tastes. A few common household smells that I can smell in a room are bleach, vinegar, cut hot peppers, and cooked cabbage - although they tend to make my eyes water and burn my nose, more than a true smell really.

There are some plus's to it all though, I can't smell a cat litter box unless the ammonia level is enough to choke a normal person, and I no longer smell skunks (or roadkill) or manure.  My wife has to yell at me to roll down all the windows if we pass by something on the road and she can't take the odor that built up in the car. Like a trash truck we got behind going to my sisters, my wife was short of getting sick and I had no idea what was wrong with her. All in all if I had to guess I would say I have maybe 5-10% capacity to smell left. I use to have a copy of the x-rays, but used it to freak people out for fun - but got tired of the sympathy and threw them away.

Manitds - yeah the bale of peat moss is hilariously funny prop sized and will last a lifetime.  The peat moss tends to have a a low organic "woodsie smell" so it alone should help in hiding any odors. If you want to cover shipping I'd be happy to send you more than enough isopods (Armadillidium nasatum) and springtails to fill as many habitats as you need - just shoot me a PM.

If your habitat is a Kritter Keeper type 9as it looks like) you will be fine. The shelf liner tends to block light more than it can block ventilation. I know habitats covered in coffee filters or paper towel get adequate air flow too, although misting/water typically doesn't have to be so much compared to one without it.


----------



## Deacon (Oct 3, 2015)

Thomas, at least you have some sense of smell. Mine is zero which means food is about texture only. I can taste salt, sugar and spice just burns my mouth, but no flavor so it's just mean. I used to love to cook, but I can't flavor anything especially recipes that say salt and pepper to taste. So, what this has done, is I don't care what I eat. I could eat Cheerios 3 times a day 'cause it makes no difference to me. My husband now cooks because he wants meat, etc. The result: he's way over-weight and I'm possibly too slim. People who can smell don't realize that chocolate and peanut butter taste like wax if you can't smell them. And, I agree, the cat's litter boxes are no problem, the dead rat in the wall last spring didn't faze me, and bagging dog poop is a breeze. Oh, well.

(I had to remove some of the black shelf liner from the cages. They were so dark! I left two inches along the top of the walls, just enough to hang on to. Mantids are much happier. I also added some silk flowers like in your tutorial. Looks a lot better.) They seem to like the shelf paper--they don't seems to be jerking their feet loose anymore.)

I think my female is looking better, by the way. Three weeks and no ooth (T. sinensis). I recognize that she has health issues, but she has managed so far. Would not laying eggs kill her anyway?Wow, I'm so sorry

I would love some isopods and springtails..I have two cages 8 X 12 X 10 (at the moment.) Happy to pay you.

PM? Probably means personal message but where do I do that? Oh, no, another lesson needed....Thanks so much.

I'm so sorry about all the topics here, but it's easier than jumping all over :stuart:


----------



## CosbyArt (Oct 3, 2015)

Deacon said:


> Thomas, at least you have some sense of smell. Mine is zero which means food is about texture only. I can taste salt, sugar and spice just burns my mouth, but no flavor so it's just mean. I used to love to cook, but I can't flavor anything especially recipes that say salt and pepper to taste. So, what this has done, is I don't care what I eat. I could eat Cheerios 3 times a day 'cause it makes no difference to me. My husband now cooks because he wants meat, etc. The result: he's way over-weight and I'm possibly too slim. People who can smell don't realize that chocolate and peanut butter taste like wax if you can't smell them. And, I agree, the cat's litter boxes are no problem, the dead rat in the wall last spring didn't faze me, and bagging dog poop is a breeze. Oh, well.
> 
> (I had to remove some of the black shelf liner from the cages. They were so dark! I left two inches along the top of the walls, just enough to hang on to. Mantids are much happier. I also added some silk flowers like in your tutorial. Looks a lot better.) They seem to like the shelf paper--they don't seems to be jerking their feet loose anymore.)
> 
> ...


Well it seems I got you beat by a bit then.  Indeed it does make some tasks a breeze, but not worth it.

As others mentioned she shouldn't have a problem laying a ooth, only time will tell as even if she mated or not she will lay ooths. My Tenodera girls are slow to lay their first ooth, all tend to be 30-40 days in.

You are correct, I sent you a PM instead. To send one you can do it by clicking the member name or profile picture then click the button that says "Send me a message". Not much to it, just something to learn.


----------

