# Do these wing buds look swollen to you?



## Andredesz (Jan 10, 2009)

I think I have a Chinese mantis here. I found him in the Lantana. I think he may be of the oothecae I left in them last year. He/she seems to be sub-adult, I say this because of the mini wings he has. I have read here that these winglets swell before their last molt, and I was wondering if this is considered swollen. Also, I have trouble counting the abdomen segments to determine its sex, so I am linking a photo hoping others will help.

Thanks so much,

Carol


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## ismart (Jan 10, 2009)

It looks like a sub-adult female chinese mantis to me. And yes her wing-buds do appear to be some what swollen. She will probally moult within a week or so.


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## Andredesz (Jan 10, 2009)

ismart said:


> It looks like a sub-adult female chinese mantis to me. And yes her wing-buds do appear to be some what swollen. She will probally moult within a week or so.


Oh thank you ismart. I always have trouble counting those segments, don't know where to start and when to stop.


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## Peter Clausen (Jan 11, 2009)

The segments must be counted on the underside of the abdomen. The abdomen begins just after the final pair of legs (legs attach to the thorax). The first abdominal segment is large and easy to see. As you get down to the tip of the abdomen the segments get closer and closer together in young nymphs. At sub-adult, it is very easy to count them (6 for females vs. 8 for males).

In the 2 of 3 photos that are still showing in this thread, your photos are taken of the _topside_ of the abdomen.


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## Rick (Jan 11, 2009)

Uhh yeah. That mantis is about to molt to adult any day now. Would need to see the last segment of the abdomen from the bottom to tell you the sex.


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## Andredesz (Jan 11, 2009)

Rick said:


> Uhh yeah. That mantis is about to molt to adult any day now. Would need to see the last segment of the abdomen from the bottom to tell you the sex.








Here is the underside of the mantis. I count six segments. So, a female?

She's also very soft, and doesn't seem well. I was hoping her lethargy was due to a coming molt, but she doesn't even seem like she has the strength to get into position. Is softness bad?


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## idolomantis (Jan 11, 2009)

yes a female.


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## Andredesz (Jan 11, 2009)

So I've done a search on the board for limp and soft, and from what I've been able to decipher, I'd say it sounds like she has a bacterial infection. This wouldn't surprise me as this mantis has been very popular with my daughter, and so has been handled quite a bit. We also fed her a petco cricket, and bits of a waxworm. Her abdomen is gyrating, I'm uploading a short digital video of that now which I hope to link here. I know this sounds silly, but I have diluted a tiny amount of amoxicilin in distilled water and fed it to the mantis with an eyedropper. I know their bodies don't work like ours, and that it's probably wishful thinking, but I thought maybe it might help her.

Here is a link to the video that shows her gyrating abdomen:

Sick Mantis


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## ismart (Jan 11, 2009)

If i were you i would put her back in her enclosure and up the temp and humidity she is about to moult. That is why she is so lethargic.


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## Rick (Jan 11, 2009)

Andredesz said:


> So I've done a search on the board for limp and soft, and from what I've been able to decipher, I'd say it sounds like she has a bacterial infection. This wouldn't surprise me as this mantis has been very popular with my daughter, and so has been handled quite a bit. We also fed her a petco cricket, and bits of a waxworm. Her abdomen is gyrating, I'm uploading a short digital video of that now which I hope to link here. I know this sounds silly, but I have diluted a tiny amount of amoxicilin in distilled water and fed it to the mantis with an eyedropper. I know their bodies don't work like ours, and that it's probably wishful thinking, but I thought maybe it might help her.Here is a link to the video that shows her gyrating abdomen:
> 
> Sick Mantis


Not a bacterial infection. I honestly hate that term and wish it would go away. There is no basis for that conclusion. I have said it many times, overhandling is not good for mantids. Your mantis is ready to molt and handling it at this critical time is really not good. The abdomen is supposed to move a little. I don't even know what to say about you giving the mantis medicine. &lt;_&lt; That mantis is most likely going to die and I blame the handling.


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## Andredesz (Jan 11, 2009)

Rick said:


> Not a bacterial infection. I honestly hate that term and wish it would go away. There is no basis for that conclusion. I have said it many times, overhandling is not good for mantids. Your mantis is ready to molt and handling it at this critical time is really not good. The abdomen is supposed to move a little. I don't even know what to say about you giving the mantis medicine. &lt;_&lt; That mantis is most likely going to die and I blame the handling.


Thank you everyone for your responses. I should have admired it without handling it. Its dead now.


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## Katnapper (Jan 12, 2009)

Andredesz said:


> Thank you everyone for your responses. I should have admired it without handling it. Its dead now.


Sorry to hear it. But her death was not in vain... You and your family have learned more about keeping mantids from her, and it will carry on to benefit your future pets.  She had a beautiful abdomen, btw...


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## Morpheus uk (Jan 12, 2009)

Cant see how handling it would kill something, ive had to move sub adults that were moulting within a few hours to a good moulting spot, that could be seen as handling and they`ve never died


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## idolomantis (Jan 12, 2009)

Morpheus uk said:


> Cant see how handling it would kill something, ive had to move sub adults that were moulting within a few hours to a good moulting spot, that could be seen as handling and they`ve never died


same here, handeling could give stress but i've never heard of a mantis dies of it.

i did had a extatosoma nimf dying tho..


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## Andredesz (Jan 12, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Sorry to hear it. But her death was not in vain... You and your family have learned more about keeping mantids from her, and it will carry on to benefit your future pets.  She had a beautiful abdomen, btw...


Oh Katnapper, you always make me feel better.


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## kamakiri (Jan 12, 2009)

I suspect dehydration, which _T. sinensis_ seems to have issues with when kept in areas with consistent or intermittent low humidity. Could also be the temperature...I believe _sinensis_ should be kept in the 75* to 85* range or so.

One example here:

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=12586

I agree that handling would not have helped, but similar symptoms have taken mantises that were not handled.

I'm sorry about your loss  losing one is never fun...especially the adults/subadults.


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## Rick (Jan 12, 2009)

Morpheus uk said:


> Cant see how handling it would kill something, ive had to move sub adults that were moulting within a few hours to a good moulting spot, that could be seen as handling and they`ve never died


It is not handling as you described that is harmful it is CONSTANT handling that is bad. When I was a kid I used to over handle mantids I found and it always caused them to get weak and sometimes die just as the one above.


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## Orin (Jan 12, 2009)

Did it die because it was handled too much or was it handled too much because it was dying? I guess we'll never know for sure.


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## Dinora (Jan 14, 2009)

Orin said:


> Did it die because it was handled too much or was it handled too much because it was dying? I guess we'll never know for sure.


Dude Orin, You rock! I love reading your posts.

Andredesz, I'm so sorry for your loss.

I lost my first mantis last month just hours after I got it and agonized over the loss for days. I, too, handled it trying to help it live. Mine died from getting tangled during a molt which began during transit.

I know this is just supposed to be a hobby, but I read up on these little guys - ALOT - before finally purchasing one and had way high hopes.

I hope your daughter isn't too upset as well.

*hugs*

Dinora


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