# Pseudocreobotra ocellata breeding diary



## macro junkie

i hope u don't mind me doing a diary on here..from now til i breed them in about 3 weeks or so..il need some help from u guys to determine when they need to breed..but will come to that in a bit il post some pics of the last few weeks and up to now.The mantis i have in this thread i bought from ian.it had an accident in the post and the male lost its legg..ian offered me a full refund so there no problem,,it shed in to a male few days ago and now it has 4 legs oh tho its not as strong or long as the rest but hes using it..any way heres some pics from the last few weeks.

To view it full size just click on the pic

Here u see my female..this was taken last week..its a sub adult..not ready to shed yet..im feeding them on house flys.the flys are fed on bread dunked in honey..is that ok.i was told that it was fine to feed flys bread soaked in honey?if not il change the feed..


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## macro junkie

now the male - pics taken a few weeks ago


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## acerbity

Awesome pics, especially of the housefly.

I think the open forum diary is a cool idea, if we could make a politically correct place for it, not sure if the "photos" section is right.

I would love to do something like this for Mantids I have little experience with but others would.

People always love to give their 2 cents too.


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## macro junkie

acerbity said:


> Awesome pics, especially of the housefly. I think the open forum diary is a cool idea, if we could make a politically correct place for it, not sure if the "photos" section is right.
> 
> I would love to do something like this for Mantids I have little experience with but others would.
> 
> People always love to give their 2 cents too.


i pmed rick..i was unsure to put it in breeding forum or this..il leave it up to him..if he feels its better of in the breeding section then thats cool..  i have lots of pics..this is going to take me some time to upload them all..il try and get some more done tonight and the rest tomorow..


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## yen_saw

Macro junkie, are you sure this is P. wahlbergii when you order them? It looks more like P. ocellata to me. your subadult appear to be small and the spike on the abdomen is not as long and sharp at the end. If you have a shot at the pronotum (shield) it will give a better pic.


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## macro junkie

yen_saw said:


> Macro junkie, are you sure this is P. wahlbergii when you order them? It looks more like P. ocellata to me. your subadult appear to be small and the spike on the abdomen is not as long and sharp at the end. If you have a shot at the pronotum (shield) it will give a better pic.


well not even ian knows really..there sold as that name but hes not really sure..and i only ben doing this few months so im not a pro..u dont think there wahlbergi then?


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## yen_saw

Eventhough they are not adult, you can tell the differences. If the shield extended well beyond eye point, it is P. wahlbergii. Don't think yours are, a pic on the shield will help.


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## macro junkie

i just looked..your right..its not..so what is the difference?any variations in the 2 apart from the shield?


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## yen_saw

http://usamantis.com/PWvsPO.html


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## macro junkie

yen_saw said:


> http://usamantis.com/PWvsPO.html


nice link! thanks buddie - im going to have a read..b back later.


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## macro junkie

Pseudocreobotra ocellata,im getting an ooth of ian on monday of that..so this is what i have allready..and the only difference is the other one grows bigger and has a bigger sheild.im learning fast.i wonder if any one in the uk sells Pseudocreobotra wahlbergi? oh can u get rick to change the name of the thread.. :lol: hmm il ask graham tomorow..im sure hes got them.


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## macro junkie

i need some help from u pros - the male sheaded about week ago.the female shed last night..when should i introduce them..this will be my 1st time ever doing this..so il need your assistance.

edit - i just had a read of ricks thread http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7112 ..it says about 2 weeks..so 2 weeks from now the fmela will be be 2 weeks sheaded and the male wil be 3.this sound about right to u?


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## Mantida

Yup. That sounds about right, though the longer you wait for the male, the better and more inclined he'll be to mate.

I've mated P. ocellata twice. Though I don't have a whole bunch of experience, here's some things I noticed.

The females are extremely aggressive and attack almost anything that comes their way, so if you want your male to survive, feed her A LOT before you introduce him. A lot as in until she drops partially eaten food or rejects it altogether. If she isn't interested in attacking prey, she won't be interested in attacking her mate either.

Since she was hanging out on her container's lid, I introduced him to her after she kept dropping her food by just turning the lid to where she was right side up and placing his lid right behind her's. I blew and poked her a bit, until she started a rocking motion. P. ocellata females don't move much, and in order to attract your male's attention (since he's skittish), you have to make her move by poking her excessively. Once your male sees her, he may stare at her for a while, but if he's ready, he will mount. The ones that aren't ready either run away or just keep staring for hours.

If he mounts, she may try her best to get him off her by using her hind leg to 'sweep' his legs off of her abdomen or wings. This is okay, and she will eventually succumb to him.

The first mating I did with my male, it took him 5 minutes to mount, but *8 hours* to actually START mating. The actual mating took about 30 minutes to an hour. Once he's mounted, I would leave them next to a window. After the male is done, he WILL fly off. I learned this in my first mating... I keep mating couples on a plant next to my computer monitor so I can constantly check on them as I type. I heard his wings fluttering, and I looked over and he was gone from the female. However, since they were close to the window, he ended up there. So if you have any males that fly after dismounting a female, placing them next to a window will be your best bet to finding him. The female won't fly off after mating.

I don't recommend keeping them both in a cage or container, as the female may get hungry again and if the male dismounts, he may run around and into her arms.

My P. ocellata female laid an ooth for me the very next day. The older your female is, the more she is given to eat, and the maturity of the male who mated with her all affect how and when she lays her ooth.

I will end this mini-book here and wish you the best with breeding these...


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## macro junkie

mantida said:


> I will end this mini-book here and wish you the best with breeding these...


i really appreciate all he help your giving me.so the older the male the more chance of him wanting to mate..?the male sheaded 1 weeks befroe the female..so i leave it 3 weeks after the female shedding for the last time i should be ok..she shed yesterday.so that would make it 13th of december i need to introduce them..and il make sure i have a tal plant for them to breed on..thanks again for your help


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## Mantida

macro junkie said:


> i really appreciate all he help your giving me.so the older the male the more chance of him wanting to mate..?the male sheaded 1 weeks befroe the female..so i leave it 3 weeks after the female shedding for the last time i should be ok..she shed yesterday.so that would make it 13th of december i need to introduce them..and il make sure i have a tal plant for them to breed on..thanks again for your help


A tall plant is only optional, as a little one is okay also. I used a small fake one:






Just as long as it has perching areas for them it should be alright.


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## idolomantis

well look at the thorax p whalbergii got an thorax wider then long p occelata have,s one longer then wide(or am i wrong now...?)


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## macro junkie

The female which shed 2 days ago.

as always click to view full size pics


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## macro junkie

the male





heres the female about 1 week before she shed


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## macro junkie

female


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## macro junkie

update..i took a pic of her today..


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## yen_saw

No doubt now they are _Pseudocreobotra ocellata_. Best of luck breeding this species, just follow the breeding sticky note thread by Rick and you be alright.


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## macro junkie

yen_saw said:


> No doubt now they are _Pseudocreobotra ocellata_. Best of luck breeding this species, just follow the breeding sticky note thread by Rick and you be alright.


yer..i like them..cool little things.thansk for stoping by yen.


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## macro junkie

the male..my 1st wing shots..il get better..the pics wasnt postioned right and not all is in frame..il try again today..but for now heres 2 of the better ones i got.


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## macro junkie

war paint?

the male - took this today


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## macro junkie

take me to your leader


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## joossa

Awesome pictures. Congrats on the mantids!


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## macro junkie

joossa said:


> Awesome pictures. Congrats on the mantids!


i love these things..i just need to get walbergie now


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## macro junkie

the male


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## macro junkie




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## macro junkie

male

5:1


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## macro junkie




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## macro junkie

- - - - - -


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## macro junkie

,male


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## macro junkie

The adult female


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## macro junkie

todays pics.adult male


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## Mantida

The antenna look interesting. Can you do a 5:1 on one of his antenna?


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## macro junkie

mantida said:


> The antenna look interesting. Can you do a 5:1 on one of his antenna?


yer i could but it would only be this close...this pic below is 5:1..but i could crop it 100%,,not sure how clear it would be but il give it ago today.


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## macro junkie

male


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## macro junkie

female - pic taken just after lights on..


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## macro junkie

wopwopwopwop - female adult for 19 days..wopwopwop there touching abdomens - im a happy camper!


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## Andrew

Congrats. My male has been very stubborn. Finally mounted the female after 5 days of cohabitation, and he's just been chillin on her back all day. He's something like 5 weeks old now.


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## macro junkie

Andrew said:


> Congrats. My male has been very stubborn. Finally mounted the female after 5 days of cohabitation, and he's just been chillin on her back all day. He's something like 5 weeks old now.


dam..well i was lucky i guees.its funny right.I put them both in tank after feeding them right up for days.after half a day i went o take him out like i remember reading on here..i was going to pack them away and try again tomorow..So i pick him up and go to walk away and i think hmm il just put my finger with him on it at the back of the female..his anteners started going and after 1 min he jumped on there..wopwopwop i was well happy..there still at it now.


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## macro junkie




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## Mantida

Haha, congrats. :lol: You'll have several ooths on the way!


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## macro junkie

mantida said:


> Haha, congrats. :lol: You'll have several ooths on the way!


im happy..im new to all of this and so far iv been pretty lucky..the grassmantis mated after 30 mins and the male come off fine..And now these which are fine and so is the male..If u where me would u remete them?If so when?


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## Mantida

macro junkie said:


> im happy..im new to all of this and so far iv been pretty lucky..the grassmantis mated after 30 mins and the male come off fine..And now these which are fine and so is the male..If u where me would u remete them?If so when?


You have grass mantids?  

I didn't remate mine, since my females were producing ooths around every 3 days and such a frequent ooth laying rate I assumed that they were fertile.

It is okay to mate them just in case your male didn't fulfill the duty on the first mating, I'd do this after your females have finished their 2nd or 3rd ooth.


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## sammy

macro, your pics are lovly!

gluck with the future nymphs


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## macro junkie

yes i have grassmantids..heres the link to the galery - http://www.flickr.com/photos/hooked_on_mac...57603180579016/

My 1st flowermantid ooth


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## macro junkie

mantida said:


> You have grass mantids?


graham must of got his wires crossed or i have..im sure he called it asian grass mantis..but iv looked and it cant be..mine looks just like ant mantis..so i guees im not breeding the grassmantis after all its the ant mantis


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## Mantida

macro junkie said:


> graham must of got his wires crossed or i have..im sure he called it asian grass mantis..but iv looked and it cant be..mine looks just like ant mantis..so i guees im not breeding the grassmantis after all its the ant mantis


Some people call them asian grass mantis, but the most common name is ant mantis. Common names can be quite confusing sometimes.


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## Andrew

This is why people should just learn the scientific names.


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## macro junkie

*I just saved the males life*

they where both out i was taking pics..The male flys over and jumps on the females abdomen..oh yer not her back..the underneath..and back to front..so ther where head to toe.she nearly had him..i had to prize them apart..It wasnt pretty and i got bit.lol its the 1st time iv been bit by a mantid..it was like a small thorn in my finger.


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## macro junkie

Andrew said:


> This is why people should just learn the scientific names.


thats very hard to do when half of them i cant even pronounce..lol


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## macro junkie

by the camaras dates its been 11 days sinse thay last mated..shes laid 1 ooth so far..Yesterday i mated them for 2nd time in 11 days..If u look at how fat she is..shes been eating loads of flys.

oh the male is thick!i had to intervene or she would of killed him..any way that was few days ago.i tryed mating them 2 days ago but shes Nealy had him so i thought i would leave it another day or so..well after leaving them on twig he jumped on her and guess what..he done same thing he done 2 days ago.jumped on her belly upside down..can u believe this guy?lol.Hes got to be the worlds dumbest mantid..lol any way after 10 mins he worked out what was what..


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## Mantida

:lol: They will jump backwards sometimes, and it's probably to protect their head from the female.

Congrats on the second mating though!


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## asdsdf

You male is much purtier.


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## yen_saw

Nice pic MJ, as usual  and congrate on the mating.

Is the white pebble-like stone at the bottom some rocks you used as substrate?


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## macro junkie

yen_saw said:


> Nice pic MJ, as usual  and congrate on the mating.Is the white pebble-like stone at the bottom some rocks you used as substrate?


yer....its called perlite..and im only using it cause i haven't got vermiculite..need to go and buy some.this stuff drys out to fast.


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## macro junkie

Click to enlarge


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## yen_saw

Ah ok, i have seen the perlite. Thanks.

MJ your female looks like she will pop an ooth soon  nice pics!


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## macro junkie

thanks yen..


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## macro junkie

well like yen said it was looking like shes about to lay and sure enough on 23/12/07 she laid her 2nd ooth..It was about half inch bigger than the 1st one she laid.Now im wondering..i have 50 nympths here.2 more ooths about to hatch and a ooth from yen in the post..hmmm thats alot of nympths..lol i better order 5 cultures and fast.


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## macro junkie

some ocellata newly hatched..there 1st bite of a flightless frutefly


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## macro junkie

update..

82 hatched..so far 82 are healthy..because this is my 1st time i wanted to split them up and count what happens and when.i feed them all 48hours after hatching..each one has eating the 3 frute flys..im going to count how mnay i loose when they moult..more pics coming in a bit..im off to feed them..see u in a few hours..lmao


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## macro junkie

*[SIZE=14pt]update[/SIZE]*

*Click on pics to enlarge*

Dec 10th 2007 they 1st mate successfully





Dec 12th 2007 - she lays her 1st ooth





Dec 14th 2007 - they mate again





Dec 23rd 2007 - She lays her 2nd ooth





Dec 27th 2007 - they mate for the 3rd time





Dec 28th 2007 - The mate for the 4th time,then she eats him after me not feeding her enough.He had been adult for months now and only had few more weeks left in him.So i guess it dosnt matter?Hes done what he needs to do.


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## macro junkie

L1

Click to enlarge


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## macro junkie

had 3 deaths so far..here's one eating a fruit fly

click to enlarge


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## idolomantis

macro junkie said:


> had 3 deaths so far..here's one eating a fruit flyclick to enlarge


cute  the little wuggie wuggie is eating :lol:


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## macro junkie

Some have started sheding to L2..Heres a pic of 1 that has just shed..

L2


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## yen_saw

macro junkie said:


> update..82 hatched..so far 82 are healthy..because this is my 1st time i wanted to split them up and count what happens and when.i feed them all 48hours after hatching..each one has eating the 3 frute flys..im going to count how mnay i loose when they moult..more pics coming in a bit..im off to feed them..see u in a few hours..lmao


Hey MJ, guess those net cages come in handy now that you have loadds of hatchling  it will take hours if you have to feed them individually all by yourself! I only separate them 2-3 moults before adult. Sometimes i leave them all together until subadult, but not without few loses.


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## macro junkie

yen_saw said:


> Hey MJ, guess those net cages come in handy now that you have loadds of hatchling  it will take hours if you have to feed them individually all by yourself! I only separate them 2-3 moults before adult. Sometimes i leave them all together until subadult, but not without few loses.


guees what.i put them all back in the net cages..i didnt have enough cultures but now i do,i got 10 through the post today..i think i gone over board but with your ooths and my ooths thats alot of nympths.i have orderd 2 more net cages fomr mantis place..there going to come in handy..thanks for stoping by yen,


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## asdsdf

Wow....10 cultures????? I only have 2 hydei and 3 melano.

Even though mine have big tummies that make them hang horizontal, they love eating each other. &lt;_&lt;


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## macro junkie

asdsdf said:


> Wow....10 cultures????? I only have 2 hydei and 3 melano. Even though mine have big tummies that make them hang horizontal, they love eating each other. &lt;_&lt;


well i have 5 ooths about to hatch so il need the cultures.2 walbergie,2 Pseudocreobotra ocellata and 1 ant mantis..as well as all ready having 80 flowermantis nympths and 20 ant mantis nympths i have alot of workl ahead of me.i would rather have enough then no enough cultures...xmas done me in and i nearly lost aload of nympths cause i ran out of frute flys..thats not happening to me again...i bought 5 wingless and 5 flightless cultures.oh i went over board on the crickets..bought to many..lol house sounds like a zoo..lol i bought silent but they stil make a noise? sqweek sqweek


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## macro junkie

ok most have shed,iv had about 10 losses throough shedding//i wont know the final numbers untill i seprate them at L3 ..Heres one that just shed to L2

click to enlarge


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## macro junkie

day 44 the 1st one has hatched.so far only 3 have hatched which i find very strange..why is this&gt;?conditions are perfect.been misting every 2 days.70-75f 24/7...but i only see 3 nymphs..  :angry: this sucks.


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## macro junkie

3rd instar

*click to enlarge*





4th instar

*click to enlarge*





4th instar

*click to enlarge*


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## Gruby626

Great mantis - I guess I'm gonna buy those next ;D


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## macro junkie

GRuBaZzZ said:


> Great mantis - I guess I'm gonna buy those next ;D


yer u should there great


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## Nosr

Great Diary MJ makes me jelous

Great species and Awsome pics

thanks for all teaching me as well about this species

i look forward to getting this species soon


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## asdsdf

You should! They are very voracious feeders. :lol: 

Also, this species doesn't seem to need any extra moisture. :blink: I don't spray the adults or the nymphs, and haven't had any mismoults. :blink: Maybe you shouldn't spray them, and see what happens MJ. Maybe the extra moisture causes the mantis to take longer to dry, so there is a higher chance for it to mess up.


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## macro junkie

asdsdf said:


> You should! They are very voracious feeders. :lol: Also, this species doesn't seem to need any extra moisture. :blink: I don't spray the adults or the nymphs, and haven't had any mismoults. :blink: Maybe you shouldn't spray them, and see what happens MJ. Maybe the extra moisture causes the mantis to take longer to dry, so there is a higher chance for it to mess up.


well i havent had any probelms.a few miss moluts but i didnt have 80nympths..u cant exspect 80 to servive can u?. me only gettting 3 nympths from the 1st ooth which buged me..fingers crossed my next ooth hatch is a big one,


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## macro junkie

id just like to say iv had 21 nympths in a mantis place cage..iv been dumping lots of frute flys in there every day..there all now L4 and guees how many i have left...21 :lol: ..soon as 1 gets eating im separating them..but untill then feeding 21 nymphs all in same cage is a hole lot easier


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## idolomantis

macro junkie said:


> id just like to say iv had 21 nympths in a mantis place cage..iv been dumping lots of frute flys in there every day..there all now L4 and guees how many i have left...21 :lol: ..soon as 1 gets eating im separating them..but untill then feeding 21 nymphs all in same cage is a hole lot easier


ye, i know some1 who tried to keep 200 chinese nymphs alive in diffrent cups 200 cups, 200 nymphs, 200 fruteflies, 200minutes time :lol:


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## macro junkie

somthing isnt right?the 2nd ooth just hatched at day 46 and only had 1 nympth..lmao.. :lol: what a joke :lol: 

so ooth number 1 hatched day 45 with 3 nympths..4 days later 1 died so im left with 2 nympths from ooth 1 and only 1 nympth from ooth 2..u can imagine im gutted and cant see where iv gone wrong?they have had pure flys with bee pollen..the ooth was in 70% humdiderty,temps 75f.i bought the pair as sub adults so im not to sure whats gone on..


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## macro junkie

MUM


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## macro junkie

2nd instar


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## macro junkie

5th instar just shed


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## macro junkie

4th instar






here u see 1/2 tents i have..i have had 15 in 1 tent and 15 in another..they have been in there since L2..iv had no casualties yet..there all at 5th instar now..I have been dumping alot of fruit flys in there daily,,i guess this is what there's been no casualties or deaths...soon as i get 1 death il separate them.


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## macro junkie

just shed to L5

Starting to get there colour now.

*Click to enlarge pic*


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## macro junkie

ok tent 1 with 14 L5 nymphs i found 1 which had no head..so im in the process of separating them all..cant have any more casualties i have have 28 left now..should be more than enough to breed with them.


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## blitzmantis

Wow, 28 P.Ocellatas... Are you sure you need that many? I know it's safer and more professional to keep at least 8 of the same species but 28! Do you have 28 homes that you have seperated each of them in to?


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## macro junkie

blitzmantis said:


> Wow, 28 P.Ocellatas... Are you sure you need that many? I know it's safer and more professional to keep at least 8 of the same species but 28! Do you have 28 homes that you have seperated each of them in to?


i dont know which is male or female yet.u never know it wil be just my luck i have 2/3 males.. :lol: ..what il do is grow them all up to sub adult..i will then choose mayby 5-10 females and probably 5 males...il sale the rest then for 10£ each  if no one buys them il kep them..i have plenty of room  and plenty of net cages.Soon as it warms up i have a room 16m2 to move in to.needs a few shelfs putting up.iim hunting for more mantids  Still waiting for jade to lay an ooth..its been 20 days sinse they mated..and shes been adult for about 6 or 7 weeks.Hope she lays soon..I had a giant asian..it died of old age with out laying a single ooth.


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## king_frog

macro junkie said:


> i dont know which is male or female yet.u never know it wil be just my luck i have 2/3 males.. :lol: ..what il do is grow them all up to sub adult..i will then choose mayby 5-10 females and probably 5 males...il sale the rest then for 10£ each  if no one buys them il kep them..i have plenty of room  and plenty of net cages.Soon as it warms up i have a room 16m2 to move in to.needs a few shelfs putting up.iim hunting for more mantids


I might be interested in buying a sub-adult spiny flower. Will they be on your website?


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## macro junkie

King_Frog said:


> I might be interested in buying a sub-adult spiny flower. Will they be on your website?


yer.and il mention it here and reptile forum.there L5/L6 growing fast..shoulnt be long now..


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## blitzmantis

Yay! These some of my favourites! (don't know why they aren't in my signature). I'll buy 1 or 2 from you MJ as soon as you put them up for sale.  

P.S. Do I have to pay you by the method on the site or can I send you the money by Paypal?


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## macro junkie

just pay pal if u use it?


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## blitzmantis

KK thanks, I prefer to pay that way. I'll be checking ur site and this forum daily to see when u are selling them.  

P.S. What's ur paypal account?


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## macro junkie

blitzmantis said:


> KK thanks, I prefer to pay that way. I'll be checking ur site and this forum daily to see when u are selling them.  P.S. What's ur paypal account?


be at leaste 1 month im gueesing...il pm u my paypal acount later on..


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## blitzmantis

macro junkie said:


> be at leaste 1 month im gueesing...il pm u my paypal acount later on..


OKAY!


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## macro junkie

Heres 1 shedding to L5


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## Gruby626

Great picture  

I used to buy 4 of each species and usually I was lucky  - Now I have 4 O.distinctus - and I have 2 males and 2 females  . Bought them at L2


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## macro junkie

my female is infertile..i mated her 4 times and her 1st ooth was 2 nymphs her 2nd ooth was 1 nympth and the rest of her ooths haven't hatched..but shes a good subject.


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## Mantida

Maybe you mated her too much.

If they're mated too much, they reject sperm, even from previous matings.


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## macro junkie

Mantida said:


> Maybe you mated her too much.If they're mated too much, they reject sperm, even from previous matings.


nope..because i only mated her once at the start,..then she laid an ooth..then i didnt mate her again untill she laid the 2nd ooth.so it wasnt that.


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## Mantida

macro junkie said:


> nope..because i only mated her once at the start,..then she laid an ooth..then i didnt mate her again untill she laid the 2nd ooth.so it wasnt that.


You said in your previous post you mated her 4 times.


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## Mantida

macro junkie said:


> my female is infertile..i mated her *4 times*


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## yen_saw

Sorry to hear that MJ, i haven't had that problem fortunately. P. ocellata been hatching out like mad for me with only single mating. I hope you didn't mate PO vs PW! just kidding i am sure you can tell the difference by now  However, i remember one of my previous P. wahlbergii just failed to produce fertile ooth with multiple matings while other breed just fine with just single mating. Only God knows what's wrong


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## macro junkie

Mantida said:


> You said in your previous post you mated her 4 times.


yes i did mate her 4 times..but the 1st and 2nd ooth i only mated her once..


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## Rob Byatt

macro junkie said:


> my female is infertile..i mated her 4 times and her 1st ooth was 2 nymphs her 2nd ooth was 1 nympth and the rest of her ooths haven't hatched..but shes a good subject.


She is producing fertile ootheca if even only one nymph hatched!  

It is more than likely the way you were keeping the ootheca; was this one that got 'had' by the mould ?


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## macro junkie

Rob Byatt said:


> She is producing fertile ootheca if even only one nymph hatched!  It is more than likely the way you were keeping the ootheca; was this one that got 'had' by the mould ?


no its not rob..i kepted the ooth the same as an ooth i bought from ian.in the same container!.ians hatched over 80- nympths..im going to breed walbergie.not because i failed on these..just because i prefer them.waiting on email from lars to get 2 pairs of sub adults from him.im going to sell all my flowermantis nympths in the next week.


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## mrblue

i only just came across this whole thread, but just wanted to say its really great, more people should do this. i know not everyone has an expensive camera to take pics like these but even just the data and observations are very useful for anyone with the same species in the future.


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## macro junkie

mrblue said:


> i only just came across this whole thread, but just wanted to say its really great, more people should do this. i know not everyone has an expensive camera to take pics like these but even just the data and observations are very useful for anyone with the same species in the future.


yer im doing it with a few speices im trying to breed.good to have the info stored..


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## darkspeed

Well, with my wonderfull luck I ended up with three males... I think they are sub sub at the moment. One is much whiter than the other two... you can hardly even see the Q on its wing buds... but six spikes all around. :angry: 

The white one...






One of the "greener ones"...






Now I gotta source a female of the same age range.... and quick too.


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## darkspeed

Well thanks to miss Mantida I now have a female P.O.... She molted to sub subadult today.

She has a ways yet to go to catch up with her subadult boys. They are currently in sloe mode, and Im feeding her as much as she can eat... Hopefully she will make it in time.


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## darkspeed

One male molted to adult two weeks ago. The female was kept nice and warm and fed 3 times as much as the rest of the bunch, and as a result molted to adult yesterday. Now I have 3 sub males still waiting to get their wings. Do P.O.s live as long as P.W.s, and if so should I plan to try and mate her with all 4 males or does it make a difference since they are from the same clutch anyway?


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## macro junkie

yer the males live for ages..your be fine.put it this way

i had a adult male when i had 4th instar nymph..by the time the 4th instar got to adult the adult male was still healthy and ready to mate..  as the chinese would say "They live long time" LOL


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## darkspeed

I managed to catch one of my other males in the middle of molting to adult as can be seen in these photos...


























Drying his wings...






Successful molt:






One of the other subadult males died during his molt process apparently from falling. Now I am down to 3 Males to be mated with the single female. She has been an adult for 10 days now. Do you guys think she is ready to mate yet, or should I wait a bit longer?


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## macro junkie

When i mate them i make sure the male and female are adult for a min of 14 days..some dont show interest till week 3 or 4 but this time my walbergiis where mated at day 14.Some would say its best to wait min of 3 weeks..im just impatient,


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## darkspeed

Another of my adult males died yesterday from sudden mantis death syndrome... so fo fear that my luck is running out I went ahead and introduced the other adult male to her today. he jumped right on and has been riding around on her for about an hour now, but no real action. How long do the little guys ride before they actually do the deed?


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## darkspeed

DARKSPEED said:


> Another of my adult males died yesterday from sudden mantis death syndrome... so fo fear that my luck is running out I went ahead and introduced the other adult male to her today. he jumped right on and has been riding around on her for about an hour now, but no real action. How long do the little guys ride before they actually do the deed?


Well after five hours riding around on her back without actually connecting I had to remove him, cuz I dont plan on leaving them alone together. Is that normal, or does he need to mature more before I introduce him to her again?


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## macro junkie

DARKSPEED said:


> Well after five hours riding around on her back without actually connecting I had to remove him, cuz I dont plan on leaving them alone together. Is that normal, or does he need to mature more before I introduce him to her again?


i woulnt do that..let them do there own thing!soon as he has done his job he wil jump off..if he dont thats his hard ######..should of been faster..LOL..as long as u feed her right up theres no reson why she would want to eat him.you should of just left them to it.if he jumped on her back hes ready to mate.just cause they didnt connect after 5 hours dont mean he or she is not ready.its happened to me mayby times..i rember mating mine and the male and female where mating for 24hours.leave them to do there own thing.how long has female and male been adult for?.sorry if u allready said that in the thread.i forgot.


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## darkspeed

They have both been adults for 15 - 20 days. I planned on waiting till she made 21 but Im afraid that my adult male will up and die for no apparent reason like my other one did. He had only been adult for a month. This hobby is so frustrating cuz you can try so hard to do everything just right, and they still die without an apparent cause of death to learn from. I'll try again ain a few days when I have more time to monitor them.


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## darkspeed

Well I put the lovers together again yesterday, fed her really good prior and again after about six hours into it. When I checked on them I could tell that the male was curling his abdomen around to meet hers, but when I tried to get a good look he would straighten it out. So I gave them their privacy......They stayed together all night, and till nearly noon the next day, when he politely hopped off and went about his merry way. I assume that means he finished his job and was successful, but since I didn't really see it with my own eyes how do I know for sure? Will he hop on her again given the opportunity in the future, or is he done with her?


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## darkspeed

Somebody?? Anybody???


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## bugzilla

I wouldn't leave them together now they've finished but re-introduce them after a few ooths have been laid.

As for whether he got off without doing the business all I've got to say is he's a bloke, no matter what species


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## darkspeed

Well I am pleased to announce that the copulation was a success!!! We now have one beautiful ooth laid just 5 days after the mating took place.












Mom and her ooth...






The happy couple...


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## mrblue

this does not mean copulation was successful. also, how much did you feed her prior to her laying this ootheca? because for a first fertile/laid ootheca, it is very much on the small side, and looks about the same as the duds my female used to lay before i mated her. anyway, this nobody can know for certain until this one does/does not hatch, so good luck, hope its fertile. though if i were you i would try to let them mate again to be safe.


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## darkspeed

She will be mated with the other adult male I have as soon as he is 3 weeks old just to be on the safe side...I have been feeding her fat moths from the porch light and wax worms daily since she molted to adult... The ooth even sorta shimmers like moth dust. She had been an adult for roughly 28 days when she laid the first ooth... 4 days after the mating attempt. Do those numbers seem typical?? Do unfertilized female PO's lay dud ooths around thirty days after the molt to adult?


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## darkspeed

Actual size...


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## darkspeed

Well it is time for an update... Of the 6 ootheca that "Big Momma" laid, only one hatched... and of that hatch a total of 15 emerged, and only 5 made it past 1st instar, and only three made it to 3rd instar. They are now 5th istar, and the three remaining are of wonderfull health. They are voracious eaters, usually finishing off 20 large wild fruit flies within a few hours. Best of all I ended up with one female and two males. Hopefully this time around I'll be more successfull at the breeding process. Plus I have another P.O. ooth on the way so I should have some new genes to work with in the future.


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