# Crossbreeding?



## Graz73 (Dec 29, 2010)

Has anyone tried crossbreeding Mantis's?

It seems like it might be possible to get some neat looking bugs if you could get it to work....

But would crossbreeding mantis's be too difficult/dangerous to the parents?


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## tier (Dec 29, 2010)

Hi

One time two species of the genus Pseudocreobotra, namely wahlbergii and ocellata, were crossbred. All hatched nymphs died before reaching adulthood. So nobody knows if they have been (in)fertile. I am sure they would have been infertile. And I guess all died before reaching adulthood becuase they were crossbred bastards. So, to answer your question, in very very rare cases it might be possible, but the offspring will be weak or not even able to survive and pretty sure they will be infertile. But anyway, normally crossbreeding mantids will not lead to any nymphs.

regards

PS: Mantids of completely different genera have already been mated with each other pretty often, but no nymphs have been hatched from the eggs (except the one case from two species of the same genus that I have mentioned above).


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## ismart (Dec 29, 2010)

I also remember someone trying to crossbreed _Stagmomantis carolina_, and _Stagmomantis limbata_. It took the ooth around a year to hatch. Whatever nymphs did emerge were weak and never made made it to adulthood. The only chance for success would be to crossbreed mantids from the same genus as mentioned above by tier. There is probably a greater risk of danger to both mantis species while coupling.


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## yen_saw (Dec 29, 2010)

Crossbreeding mantis of same genus (with different species) usually produce nothing or weak nymphs as mentioned by tier. The closer related the mantis are, the better chance of producing the hybrids. There was article published by Roy, R. &amp; E. Cherlonneix last year regarding possibility of hybridisation between species. See below (originally provided by Kai).

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Systematics and biology of _Sphodromantis biocellata _(Werner) (Mantodea, Mantidae). _Sphodromantis biocellata_, distributed in the equatorial part of the coastal region of West Africa, is a remarkable species by the diversity of the spots on the fore coxae, what made it was described several times with different names, here confirmed or put as synonyms, with land observations and rearings, which have besides shown that it could give hybrids with_ S. lineola pinguis_.







The markings on the fore coxae of the hybrids is intermediary and variable concerning the number and size of the coloured spots. Matings between hybrid males and hybrid females occured but the females did not lay oothecae. It was found that no eggs have developed in the females abdomen.

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There was also similar publication on crossbreeding experiments performed by R. Roberts who was with the USDA, by crossing Stagmomantis carolina x Stagmomantis limbata. Many of the oothecae from cross-breeding failed to hatch, from the few that hatched, most of the nymphs were deformed. The experiements were performed back in 1937!

So trying to produce hybrids from say between Orchid mantis and ghost mantis will be impossible. In general, it is not a good idea to crossbreed mantis of different species.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 29, 2010)

I completely agree with everything above, which is non controversial, so let me add a controversial note to spice up this somewhat tired old question.

A lot of hobbyists who keep animals, and tropical fish are another good example, are not prepared to create something "new" by decades of selective breeding; they want a "quick fix" by cross breeding two different species. I won't go into what constitutes a species here (it might lead to a rant about morphological systematics!  ), but hobbyists will often try to cross what are obviously two different species to produce some "neat looking mantids". Nature, as Tier and Yen have pointed out, usually steps in and prevents this -- remember that the offspring (F2 generation) must be able to interbreed for it to be a true hybrid -- but what if you did get a true hybrid, say of Stagmomantis carolina with S. limbata? You would have a hybrid that would be eagerly bought by some hobbyists and would contaminate both species lines until nobody knew what defined either species.

I would often disagree with Christian (though not nearly as strongly as I often pretended!) about taxonomy, but I completely agree with him when he says that the hybrid offspring of any cross breeding should all be killed.


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## Rick (Dec 30, 2010)

There are often mechanisms in place to prevent such matings from taking place in general. One example is Tenodera angustipennis and Tenodera sinensis. I know of a place local to me where both species live in the same habitat. I have witnessed them interbreeding. But you don't find hybrids of the two. Why? Obviously there is some sort of mechanism preventing the sperm from fertilizing the females eggs.

Obviously in this example there are likely few prezygotic mechanisms in place. The two are mating with one another in the same habitat. There could be slight differences in sexual organs that you cannot see with your naked eye though that does not seem to be the case. The sperm for various reasons could fail to fuse with the eggs.

Postzygotic mechanisms could prevent any offspring from being viable as was mentioned above. If offspring are produced they may not be able to breed or may be sterile.

Here is a link with some basic info on isolating mechanisms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolating_mechanisms


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## hibiscusmile (Dec 30, 2010)

I dont know any technical stuff, but maybe the females body sees the new species sperm as an invader and its antibodies kill them off?


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## Graz73 (Dec 30, 2010)

Wow, a lot of info there! I have not even hatched an Ooth yet, so no need to worry about me creating Mantid abominations.... But this stuff is fascinating to think about sometimes...

A related question: Do serious breeders try to breed in desirable characteristics in mantis's, sort of like dog breeders? If so, how do we even know which characteristics are desirable? Just what looks cool?


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## Rick (Dec 30, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> I dont know any technical stuff, but maybe the females body sees the new species sperm as an invader and its antibodies kill them off?


There are chemical signals that could be different among two species. That is one type of prezygotic isolating mechanism that could prevent fertilization.


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## Findarato (Dec 30, 2010)

Rick said:


> There are chemical signals that could be different among two species. That is one type of prezygotic isolating mechanism that could prevent fertilization.


I would think pheromones are chemically different for different species in mantids, therefore mating might not work between mantis families. Just speculation, because I don't believe this has been elaborately analysed (the chemical formulas of these different pheromones). But I know that feline pheromones won't work for dogs and vice versa.

And sperms from one species might not be able to interact with oocytes from a female of another species. This works only for species sufficiently close related. The ooths will be infertile or just like ooths from an unmated mantis. Mating might work between Hierodula Membranacea and Hierodula Grandis (just as an example), because they are from the same family. Any offspring of these might be interesting, but I would prevent such things. Like they are killing offspring of Grizzly and Polar bears that tends to happen more frequently due to climatic changes. A zoo (forgot which one) had to pay a penalty because they unwantedly produced offspring between lion and tiger (liger). This wouldn't happen in nature anyway because these 2 species would never meet in the wild.

I agree with all said above about these experiments to be unwanted, and should not be done.


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## ismart (Dec 30, 2010)

I'm still wating for Pittens, and cuppies! :wub:


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## Findarato (Dec 30, 2010)

What about Doxes and Fogs?


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## PeterF (Dec 30, 2010)

Mantid Kittens!


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 30, 2010)

I know that fish and dogs have interbred; that's where we get dogfish. Breeders call the babies guppy puppies! :lol:


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## yen_saw (Dec 30, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> I know that fish and dogs have interbred; that's where we get dogfish.


That's nothing Phil, i also know fish has even interbred with non-living object; there how we got swordfish :lol: :lol: Sorry i need a break


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## Rick (Dec 31, 2010)

Findarato said:


> I would think pheromones are chemically different for different species in mantids, therefore mating might not work between mantis families. Just speculation, because I don't believe this has been elaborately analysed (the chemical formulas of these different pheromones). But I know that feline pheromones won't work for dogs and vice versa.
> 
> And sperms from one species might not be able to interact with oocytes from a female of another species. This works only for species sufficiently close related. The ooths will be infertile or just like ooths from an unmated mantis. Mating might work between Hierodula Membranacea and Hierodula Grandis (just as an example), because they are from the same family. Any offspring of these might be interesting, but I would prevent such things. Like they are killing offspring of Grizzly and Polar bears that tends to happen more frequently due to climatic changes. A zoo (forgot which one) had to pay a penalty because they unwantedly produced offspring between lion and tiger (liger). This wouldn't happen in nature anyway because these 2 species would never meet in the wild.
> 
> I agree with all said above about these experiments to be unwanted, and should not be done.


I wasn't talking about pheremones. I was talking of chemical signals between gametes. I think vision has a lot to do with mantid mating though. I have seen S. carolina males on the backs of female Tenodera in the wild and have had males of different species mount and attempt mating with females of different species.

They say that members of species can interbreed. I don't know much about ligers, but that woudl mean lions and tigers are technically the same species. Kinda like dogs, regardless of how different they look, they are all the same species.


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## Findarato (Dec 31, 2010)

Rick said:


> I wasn't talking about pheremones. I was talking of chemical signals between gametes. I think vision has a lot to do with mantid mating though. I have seen S. carolina males on the backs of female Tenodera in the wild and have had males of different species mount and attempt mating with females of different species.
> 
> They say that members of species can interbreed. I don't know much about ligers, but that woudl mean lions and tigers are technically the same species. Kinda like dogs, regardless of how different they look, they are all the same species.


Ok sorry, I misunderstood. Between gametes there are no pheromones, naturally. Chemical (hormone) signals might be relevant, but a limiting factor is also the life span of spermatozoons once they leave the male mantis body, which might be different between species. Of course mating in mantids is much about them seeing each other, and individuals from different species might take a try. Still I believe pheromones are important in deciding if it works or not. My knowledge of mantis mating is theory at the present, I am still raising my first mantid generation, and have not had any opportunity to mate any mantid before. But I will try as soon as my mantis are ready for it. The rest of my knowledge is what I know about biochemistry in mammals (as a vet), and what I read in the Prete book.  And I like to discuss scientific things anyway.

Regarding ligers (and off topic for this section of forum, sorry): Tigers and lions both are feline although of course diff. species(Panthera tigris, Panthera leo), they interbreed. A liger is bigger than a tiger, light brown with very blurry stripes if any. if F2 generations are possible, no idea. As I said, these breedings are mostly accidents in zoos, and actually not wanted.

dogs are all the same species, (Canis lupus familiaris)and interbreed without problems. They interbreed with their genetic ancestors, wolves and coyotes, but no other canines like foxes. wolf-dog interbreeding has been done for research in wolf behaviour, and these offspring are more wolf than dog. nothing to keep as a pet. I guess this discussion is too much off mantis-topic, so I stop here.


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## Rick (Jan 1, 2011)

Findarato said:


> Ok sorry, I misunderstood. Between gametes there are no pheromones, naturally. Chemical (hormone) signals might be relevant, but a limiting factor is also the life span of spermatozoons once they leave the male mantis body, which might be different between species. Of course mating in mantids is much about them seeing each other, and individuals from different species might take a try. Still I believe pheromones are important in deciding if it works or not. My knowledge of mantis mating is theory at the present, I am still raising my first mantid generation, and have not had any opportunity to mate any mantid before. But I will try as soon as my mantis are ready for it. The rest of my knowledge is what I know about biochemistry in mammals (as a vet), and what I read in the Prete book.  And I like to discuss scientific things anyway.
> 
> Regarding ligers (and off topic for this section of forum, sorry): Tigers and lions both are feline although of course diff. species(Panthera tigris, Panthera leo), they interbreed. A liger is bigger than a tiger, light brown with very blurry stripes if any. if F2 generations are possible, no idea. As I said, these breedings are mostly accidents in zoos, and actually not wanted.
> 
> dogs are all the same species, (Canis lupus familiaris)and interbreed without problems. They interbreed with their genetic ancestors, wolves and coyotes, but no other canines like foxes. wolf-dog interbreeding has been done for research in wolf behaviour, and these offspring are more wolf than dog. nothing to keep as a pet. I guess this discussion is too much off mantis-topic, so I stop here.


I should retract my previous statement. To be considered a species the offspring must be viable. Internet says ligers have been known to have offspring. The two big cats are in the same genus. Obviously the two are very closely related.

As far as mantids goes, there are many mechanisms that could prevent crossbreeding. Which ones are actively playing a role I don't know. Interesting stuff though.


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