# M. religiosa diapause/breeding 2009 season



## kamakiri (Feb 2, 2009)

I just wanted to start a thread to discuss Europeans which are one of my favorite species, including the current topic of diapause.

My first ooth of the season just hatched yesterday. It was a wild collected from Ohio stored for one month in a ventilated cup. Some evenings stored in the garage when temps were ranging in the upper 30s to low 50s, otherwise in the refrigerator during the day. Total storage time was one month from late Nov. to late Dec. Incubation time was just over 5 weeks.

So please post if you're keeping or hatching any _M. religiosa_ mantises this year.


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## Rick (Feb 3, 2009)

I like these too but after hatching a few ooths over the years I found the nymphs never did well so I gave up on them. Good luck to yours.


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## Borya (Feb 3, 2009)

Once they hatched without any diapause, just after two months in room temperature.

This autumn my friend made them cold period - first he put an ooth near a window for a week (at about 10-15*C), then to fridge (~3-5*C) for about two weeks, then again to the window for a week, and in october they hatched, he gave me some.


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## kamakiri (Feb 3, 2009)

Thanks Rick...I suspect it may be the humidity where you are. Last year I didn't have any problems despite the relatively low humidity here. I think I'm going to monitor the actual values a little better this year, but that's easier said than done.



Borya said:


> Once they hatched without any diapause, just after two months in room temperature.


And if anyone has an ooth that does this...I'd be interested in buying or trading for them! I have a few left that I have not put in cold storage yet, but I was just going to hatch them later. I guess we'll see on those 3.

It's also good to know that diapause can be that short with only two weeks in the fridge. I think I'm going to test one with just a week.

The ooth that hatched ~70 nymphs on 2/1, hatched another ~30 yesterday (1 day later).

Anyone currently have some of the asian subspecies?


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## Hypoponera (Feb 3, 2009)

I have one from Luke. It hatched a few weeks ago and the nymphs are molting to L3 now. Hatch out was a single burst with no stragglers. Nice mix of colors and all look to be quite happy!

Afraid I only got the single ooth. But I will happily send you one to play with should I get more a few months down the road.

This is only the second time I have tried the species. My first attempt was a dismal failure. I hatched an ooth and got NO nymphs to last long enough to molt to L2! Most died from injuries incurred at hatching or got stuck and did not exit the ooth. So this attempt is going much better!!


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## kamakiri (Feb 4, 2009)

Cool. I didn't know that the ooth that Luke offered made it stateside...I would be interested in any ooths you could spare, as I would like to see if they could be hybridized.


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## kamakiri (Feb 8, 2009)

One of the last to emerge:


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## Peter Clausen (Feb 9, 2009)

Oregon participates with a just hatched _M. religiosa_ ootheca! My daughter found it on the side of her school a few months ago, well after the last wild adults had succumbed to the local weather. I kept it outside until about a month ago. Yesterday morning, I set the deli cup near a reptile heat lamp. It hatched a few hours later. Unfortunately, a S. limbata ooth also hatched in the same container, so the nymphs are all cohabitating until I can tell them apart. There's a Revolutionary War joke in there somewhere, I'm sure!


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## Katnapper (Feb 9, 2009)

Wow! Great close-up shot of that newborn nymph, Kamakiri!! Love it!


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## kamakiri (Feb 12, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Wow! Great close-up shot of that newborn nymph, Kamakiri!! Love it!


Thanks Katnapper, just ignore the sensor dust! :lol: 

My update&gt;

So the hatchlings have pared themselves down from 70/30 to about 40/5. All the survivors are fat, but still L1 as of this morning. There were a few instances of cannibalism, but most of the dead can be accounted for on the tub floor(s).

There was a single straggler on day 3 or 4 which was housed singly but died a few days ago.


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## kamakiri (Feb 17, 2009)

First batch started molting to L2 on Valentine's Day. Lost several to predation as the skinny L1s got a few of the first to molt to L2. So I've started to separate them into smaller groups of 1 to 3 in 12 oz tubs.

Second ooth started hatching on Saturday with a whopping 1 nymph. Figured the rest would hatch the next day on the 15th...nothing! Woke up a little late yesterday and checked the ooths first thing and was surprised to _finally_ witness the start of hatching! Right when I picked up the tub, I noticed three heads just wiggling out. Always caught them in progress before with many nymphs running around. Glad I had the camera ready to go in the next room. I'll post some of the other pictures in the photo forum. First shot of the series:






This ooth was wild collected, cold stored for about two weeks, and incubated for 4 1/2 weeks. Total count was only 30, and does appear that laterally, only half of the ooth hatched. Hatching only seemed to have occured from the Mantis' left (as the ooth was laid). Makes me curious why that would be. Left and right ovaries and one was sterile? The valves/gonapophyses would seem to be able to handle ova from a left and right source, and eggs are laid alternately in the right and left halves of the ooth for this species. I'll dissect it in a few days if there is no further activity.


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## kamakiri (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm surprised... that second ooth continued to hatch for two more days with another 30 and 47 yesterday for a total of 106. So maybe half the ooth was in the sun in the wild and was the cause for the differential in development time? Maybe more will hatch today...

Most of the first batch are L2 and are mostly separated since they've pared themselves down to about 20+.


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## Katnapper (Feb 19, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> I'm surprised... that second ooth continued to hatch for two more days with another 30 and 47 yesterday for a total of 106. So maybe half the ooth was in the sun in the wild and was the cause for the differential in development time? Maybe more will hatch today...


Interesting developmental theory.


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## kamakiri (Feb 20, 2009)

Couldn't believe it...there were more religiosa hatchlings yesterday when I got home...20 more for a new total of 126 over 6 days. Glad I didn't dissect it too soon! Though it does seem that the 'right' half finally has exuvia on the 'zipper'.

I wasn't planning on releasing any until later in the year, but with only 2 ooths hatched out of 12+ I think I have to start now. At least it has been warm lately at ~70 degrees out.


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## kamakiri (Feb 21, 2009)

Okay, now this is just ridiculous...now it's hatched over 8 days another 4 yesterday and 1 this morning. Not that 131 total is a big number, I just wasn't aware that _religiosa_ ooths could have that long a hatching period.


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## Katnapper (Feb 21, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Okay, now this is just ridiculous...now it's hatched over 8 days another 4 yesterday and 1 this morning. Not that 131 total is a big number, I just wasn't aware that _religiosa_ ooths could have that long a hatching period.


Interesting... will have to keep that in mind in case I ever get an ooth of this species. Thanks for letting us know.


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## kamakiri (Feb 24, 2009)

:angry: I typed a looong update on these guys yesterday and it was lost when submitting...  

Main points were some of the difficulties so far:

These guys are cannibalistic even when there's lots of feeders available. Lots of headless horsemen, three leggers, missing claws or antennae, etc...

Really sensitive to lack of humidity...especially during the molt. I opended the container with the first batch to remove/separate some of the just hardened L2s and some of the molts in progress just got stuck despite humidity foam and condensation on the tub sides. Take this with a grain of salt since it can be really dry here. Ambient humidity in the office/bug room ranges from 30% to 50% or so according to the cheap gauges.

Many L1s appear to wither and die for no reason. Lots of feeders, but some even individually housed don't even eat. Not a problem at all with the surviving L2s which are getting fat, so it seems that it is just certain individuals from the start.

Anyway, it doesn't look like I need to be releasing any just yet...


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## kamakiri (Mar 14, 2009)

Update:

Still only two ooths hatched so far.

First batch is mostly L4, no problems to report for all (12) individually housed (8 oz. tubs) nymphs since L2. One pair has stayed together in an 8 oz. tub kept very well fed. One group of communally housed nymphs in about a 1/2 gallon container sustains 4 with no cannibalism since L2.

Second batch was split into 4 various sized deli containers.

32 oz: 3 remaining L3

32 oz: no survivors

16 oz: 2 remaining 1 L3 1 L2

8 oz: 1 L2


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## ismart (Mar 14, 2009)

I myself have 5 european ooths from my breeding stock of last year. The ooths are still currently in diapause. I will start to incubate them in a few weeks. I also have 18 L4/L5 _mantis religiosa siedleckii_ that i recieved from Hypopnera a few weeks ago. They are all houesed in there owen 32oz cups. Hopefully if all goes well, i will have enough adults to breed another generation. This sub species does not require a diapause. Cant wait to try this out for myself!


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## kamakiri (Mar 15, 2009)

ismart said:


> I myself have 5 european ooths from my breeding stock of last year. The ooths are still currently in diapause. I will start to incubate them in a few weeks. I also have 18 L4/L5 _mantis religiosa siedleckii_ that i recieved from Hypopnera a few weeks ago. They are all houesed in there owen 32oz cups. Hopefully if all goes well, i will have enough adults to breed another generation. This sub species does not require a diapause. Cant wait to try this out for myself!


That's great news! Please keep us updated


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## ismart (Mar 15, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> That's great news! Please keep us updated


Will do!

I unfortunetly lost one today from a mismoult. It fell from it's perch  . Now down to 17


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## MantidLord (Mar 15, 2009)

Hi. Just what I was looking for.

I have two M. religiosa ooths from a wild caught female, and I just started incubating them last week. They were kept in the fridge since December. Any suggestions/ insight as to when they should hatch? I put them outside (in their container), so they will naturally hatch. Also because it's hotter outside. Thanks.


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## ismart (Mar 16, 2009)

They will probally hatch in about 5 weeks or so.


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## MantidLord (Mar 17, 2009)

Thnks


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## kamakiri (Mar 23, 2009)

No real news here...but the remaining L4 and L5 nymphs have been individually housed, even the one pair that seemed to still be getting along. I didn't want to push them any further than L4.

Still no other hatchlings from the remaining ooths.


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## MantidLord (Mar 23, 2009)

Great, do you have any pics?


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## Borya (Mar 31, 2009)

M.religiosa ooth hatched after about 20 days of cold period, and about two months after being layed.

In details, 5 days after it was layed I put it near the window at about 15*C for 10 days, then placed to the fridge (+3*C) for 20 days, then again to 15*C for 10 days, and then back to room temperature (about 20*C). It hatched in about a month after being brought to the room.

Another ooth, that was laid on 1-st of March, hatched yesterday, March 30, _without any cold period_ and after only one month of incubation, just like tropical species! The stock is from Russian Black Sea coast, where it requires winter diapause.

Both times there were around 50 nymphs.


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## kamakiri (Mar 31, 2009)

Very interesting. Perhaps the asian subspecies were from migrants via Russia...

Thanks for sharing!

No real news for my Europeans...mostly L5s now.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 31, 2009)

I just had one hatch and only one came out, after a couple days it died, never had just one before.


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## kamakiri (Mar 31, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> I just had one hatch and only one came out, after a couple days it died, never had just one before.


That's pretty sad to just have one and not even a survivor...

What kind of cold/storage did you keep it in? Wild or captive? Forgive me for all the questions, but that's really surprising.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 31, 2009)

:lol: Afraid to answer due to my mind is going! I believe it is one from my field, but not sure, I think it was, I picked it and brought it in and glues it and yes thats my story!


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## MantidLord (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm still waiting for mine to hatch. &lt;_&lt;


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## hierodula (Apr 5, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> I just wanted to start a thread to discuss Europeans which are one of my favorite species, including the current topic of diapause.My first ooth of the season just hatched yesterday. It was a wild collected from Ohio stored for one month in a ventilated cup. Some evenings stored in the garage when temps were ranging in the upper 30s to low 50s, otherwise in the refrigerator during the day. Total storage time was one month from late Nov. to late Dec. Incubation time was just over 5 weeks.
> 
> So please post if you're keeping or hatching any _M. religiosa_ mantises this year.


hi. im starting my hobby this year with two M. Religiosa ooths and 1 adult H. Membrancea. I have raised europeans before, but I let em go at L4, since I ran Out of fruit flies in my culture &lt;_&lt;


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## kamakiri (Apr 7, 2009)

hierodula said:


> hi. im starting my hobby this year with two M. Religiosa ooths and 1 adult H. Membrancea. I have raised europeans before, but I let em go at L4, since I ran Out of fruit flies in my culture &lt;_&lt;


Urf...I hope you're better prepared this time!

No significant update for me...11 nymphs L4 to L6 and should have L7s soon. Greens and browns, some of the browns are nearly white after molting.

Anybody else? Updates?


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## ismart (Apr 8, 2009)

My 17 _Mantis religiosa siedleckii_ nymphs are doing quite well. They are all starting to moult to L6. They are currently being fed on house flies. I have started to finally sex them. It would appear i have a lot more males than females, whitch is rather good consitering they are very cannibalistic. The prospect of breeding them succesfully seems very good at the moment. Will update again soon.


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## hierodula (Apr 8, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Urf...I hope you're better prepared this time!No significant update for me...11 nymphs L4 to L6 and should have L7s soon. Greens and browns, some of the browns are nearly white after molting.
> 
> Anybody else? Updates?


Ill sure be. hey anyone have any h. membrancea nymphs. :huh: also thanks kamikari for starting this thread as M. Religiosa is also one of my favorite species


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## Borya (Apr 9, 2009)

Another ooth, layed March 11, hatched today without cold period too. About 50 nymphs came out.


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## kamakiri (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks for the updates! I really think that these would be nice to see for the hobby/retail market.


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## kamakiri (Apr 16, 2009)

One of my L6s...love the white racing stripes.


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## Katnapper (Apr 16, 2009)

Cool, Kamakiri... I like those stripes too!


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## kamakiri (Apr 21, 2009)

Had a couple of girls molt to L7/subadult last night, and geez they look like they've more than doubled in size! The boys should follow shortly as some of them aren't eating.

They must molt pretty quickly. I was just looking at one hanging and it seemed like just a few minutes later she was inflated and I noticed her kicking the old exo off.


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## kamakiri (Apr 23, 2009)

Only one male followed shortly and I guess L6 is subadult for males...since he's an adult.

One of the others is yellow and white, is that 'normal'? I've only seen them brown and green before.


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## hierodula (Apr 26, 2009)

my ooths havent hatched. they are from females I caught outside. i left them in my backyard so that they can hatch when spring arrives, but most spring critters are already here. the ooths look large compared to when they where laid. Should I give them some time or throw them away  I think ill give them a month or so


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## ismart (Apr 30, 2009)

All 17 of my _M. religiosa siedleckii_ are doing very well. 9 of my 11 males have all sucsessfully moulted to adulthood. I just had my first female moult to adult today. I'm becoming quite pleased with the turn out for this species. I hope i can continue this species for a few more generations.


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## Hypoponera (May 1, 2009)

Hey Ismart,

Are yours "normal sized"? Seems mine are noticibly smaller then the other Europeans I've had. Maybe I've just been underfeeding them!


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## ismart (May 1, 2009)

Hypoponera said:


> Hey Ismart,Are yours "normal sized"? Seems mine are noticibly smaller then the other Europeans I've had. Maybe I've just been underfeeding them!


Hey Hypoponera,

Your observation is on point. The females are deffinetly smaller than your common european females. I had three more females moult to adulthood last night. All my males are ''normal sized'' thus far. The size difference in this case has nothing to do with feeding. Mine are fed every day till the point where they have refused there food, and the females are still noticibly smaller. How many do you currently have? What is your male to female ratio?


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## Hypoponera (May 1, 2009)

I still have a total of 19 left. But only 6 adult males so far and no adult females. But I had noticed that the remaining nymphs are of two sizes. So I think I have 3 more males who are just late bloomers. If so, that will give me 9 males and 10 females.

Odd as it may sound, I've never seen a European male. I've only had females. These larger nymphs that I assume are females are much too small to be the size of the wild caught females here. These nymphs would need a few more molts to get that big. And I also feed them to the point of rejecting food.

We will need to keep track of the size difference. I will contact Fisherman_Brazil and see if he can measure some wild ones there. Maybe the smaller size is normal for this sub-species.


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## kamakiri (May 1, 2009)

Very good news guys! I'm still not sure, but by my count the females take one more molt than the males.

Please let me know when either of you have spare ooths for sale!


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## ismart (May 1, 2009)

I was under the impression the females were not even sub-adults yet. I was very surprised to see them moulting to adulthood. At some point this week i will post some pics up.


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## MantidLord (May 2, 2009)

My two ooths have yet to hatch. They're incubating along with my I.oratorias outside in 70-80 degrees fahrenheit. I'm starting to get worried... :huh:


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## hierodula (May 2, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> My two ooths have yet to hatch. They're incubating along with my I.oratorias outside in 70-80 degrees fahrenheit. I'm starting to get worried... :huh:


yeah, thats like my ooths &lt;_&lt;


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## kamakiri (May 2, 2009)

Well I can be pretty certain that I'll never have a wild population of _M. religiosa religiosa_ here. It's just too dry for them. Two of the ooths that I left in the garage un-misted had fully developed embryos, but none successfully hatched. Most seemed to have died in the egg case without emerging. One of the two ooths that did have several emerge most died that way, and just a few died still stuck in the exuvium.

So anyway, that makes me think that added or increased humidity is not required for the _M. religiosa_ embryo development at all. However, 20-40% is too low for emerging/eclosion/hatching.

I pulled the remaining 4 ooths in diapause out today and will keep them inside in humidified containers.


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## MantidLord (May 2, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Well I can be pretty certain that I'll never have a wild population of _M. religiosa religiosa_ here. It's just too dry for them. Two of the ooths that I left in the garage un-misted had fully developed embryos, but none successfully hatched. Most seemed to have died in the egg case without emerging. One of the two ooths that did have several emerge most died that way, and just a few died still stuck in the exuvium.So anyway, that makes me think that added or increased humidity is not required for the _M. religiosa_ embryo development at all. However, 20-40% is too low for emerging/eclosion/hatching.
> 
> I pulled the remaining 4 ooths in diapause out today and will keep them inside in humidified containers.


Hmm. Maybe that's why my ooths won't hatch, they're too dry. But I wonder since I caught the wild female in Vegas, so the conditions have to be able to support at least a small population of M. religiosa. Either that or their being displaced by the much more populous(sp.) I. oratoria in the area.


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## hierodula (May 6, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Well I can be pretty certain that I'll never have a wild population of _M. religiosa religiosa_ here. It's just too dry for them. Two of the ooths that I left in the garage un-misted had fully developed embryos, but none successfully hatched. Most seemed to have died in the egg case without emerging. One of the two ooths that did have several emerge most died that way, and just a few died still stuck in the exuvium.So anyway, that makes me think that added or increased humidity is not required for the _M. religiosa_ embryo development at all. However, 20-40% is too low for emerging/eclosion/hatching.
> 
> I pulled the remaining 4 ooths in diapause out today and will keep them inside in humidified containers.


I came home to a pleasant surprise. MY OOTHS HATCHED!!!YES!!


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## MantidLord (May 7, 2009)

hierodula said:


> I came home to a pleasant surprise. MY OOTHS HATCHED!!!YES!!


What conditions did you keep your ooths. Congratulations by the way.


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## hierodula (May 9, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> What conditions did you keep your ooths. Congratulations by the way.


thanks, I left em outside and let nature take care of them. they hatched when its about 70 - 80. maybeyou should leave them outside and them put them in your incubator. if you put them in the same conditions ever since they were laid, those are the conditions they'll be used to. &lt;_&lt; so, like i said give the ooths a few days of cooler weather then put them in your incubator. thats what i did.


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## Borya (May 10, 2009)

One more M.religiosa ooth layed on 25.03 hatched today. It was incubated in a fridge at +3C. Hatch rate is obviously lower than of previous ones, only about 20 came out. I think it's because this ooth was next-to-last the female had produced.


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## hierodula (May 10, 2009)

i am sorry to say, only 3 nymphs survived. I dont understand.  I gave them fruit flies and aphids. last year the nymphs ate like crazy, this year the nymphs bat away the prey, or take a bite before letting go  please help!!!


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## MantidLord (May 10, 2009)

I think that's what Rick meant when he said they were difficult to raise. And I've been keeping the ooths outside after about a month of incubation. Still nothing...at what point should I conclude that they're duds?


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## Zelthan (May 11, 2009)

I cant make my males mate with females, females have been adult for 2 weeks now any sugestion?


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## hierodula (May 13, 2009)

nymphs ..... dead


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## Katnapper (May 14, 2009)

Zeth said:


> I cant make my males mate with females, females have been adult for 2 weeks now any sugestion?


Wait a week and try again... it's about the only thing you can do.



hierodula said:


> nymphs ..... dead


Sorry to hear that.  Maybe you'll get some more this season yet...


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## kamakiri (Jun 10, 2009)

Finally...an update from my 2008 ooths. One nymph hatched today from Berta's ooth number 4. Just one, but I'm hoping for more soon. I'll have to double-check the dates, but I think that one was laid about 10/30/08.


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## kamakiri (Aug 31, 2009)

Any updates? Anyone?

While I've raised a couple of generations of Europeans, I think I will be taking a break from them at least until next year...

Just by the numbers, I seem to be doing a heck of a lot better with the locally available and desert tolerant species.


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## MantidLord (Aug 31, 2009)

Yeah, I have two adult females (one hopefully pregnant), one sub-adult female and one sub-adult male. Hopefully the male can make it with the two (and possibly three) females before getting devoured. I hope I have success. And yeah, desert species are a lot easier. My Iris oratoria *almost *survive anything.


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## massaman (Aug 31, 2009)

whats best way to store these ooths and or chinese when wanting to hatch them next year just put them in the fridge or just store them in the garage!


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## kamakiri (Sep 1, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Yeah, I have two adult females (one hopefully pregnant), one sub-adult female and one sub-adult male. Hopefully the male can make it with the two (and possibly three) females before getting devoured. I hope I have success. And yeah, desert species are a lot easier. My Iris oratoria *almost *survive anything.


Good luck to your _religiosa_ male! Yeah, my oratoria are pretty hardy! No water, and intermittent feeding...no problem! The only casualties were from cannibalism and rare mismolts. I had one that was molting in tight quarters that was coming out nearly sideways!



massaman said:


> whats best way to store these ooths and or chinese when wanting to hatch them next year just put them in the fridge or just store them in the garage!


 I've put them in the fridge when it's warm and out in the garage when it's in the 50s and low 60s or below.


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## MantidLord (Sep 1, 2009)

Yeah same thing here with oratorias. Though I have had the occasional mystery deaths. But those are rare compared to the stories I hear about other species. Mantis religiosa is an awesome species though, I just hope I have success with the nymphs if I even make it that far.


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## hierodula (Sep 5, 2009)

another summer, another chance. i was lucky i found a L4 female nymph and raised to adult, and i found a adult male while looking out my window. my female was adult when i found him, and the male appeared shiny, so i caught him.yay


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## kamakiri (Sep 5, 2009)

hierodula said:


> another summer, another chance. i was lucky i found a L4 female nymph and raised to adult, and i found a adult male while looking out my window. my female was adult when i found him, and the male appeared shiny, so i caught him.yay


Congrats! You're lucky to have them out and about!  

No other updates on the asian subspecies? Borya? ismart? Anyone else?


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## sbugir (Sep 6, 2009)

I just caught a gravid female, whom i saw a few days ago mating, do the ooths need a diapause state or can i hatch em right away?

Thanks


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## MantidLord (Sep 6, 2009)

Earlier this morning my mated female finally laid an oothecae!  . It's about 1.5 inches long and .5 inches wide across. She's all ready eaten three crickets since she laid last night. The only question is (and a rather novice one), where should I put the ooth? I'm thinking about putting it outside but since they aren't abundant in my area that might not work. I also thought about keeping them in room temperature but I don't know what type of negative side effects could come up. And finally, the fridge, which I would put them in there but I'm uncertain as to how frequently I should mist the container so the eggs don't dry out. Right now it is still in the container with the female. Thanks in advance.


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## kamakiri (Sep 7, 2009)

lemmiwinks said:


> I just caught a gravid female, whom i saw a few days ago mating, do the ooths need a diapause state or can i hatch em right away?Thanks


Diapause is necessary, unless you have a subspecies that doesn't require it. But since yours was wild caught in the states...I'm sure yours will.

Look for borya's posts earlier in this thread. You might be able to get away with a really short period before going to incubation.


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## kamakiri (Sep 7, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Earlier this morning my mated female finally laid an oothecae!  . It's about 1.5 inches long and .5 inches wide across. She's all ready eaten three crickets since she laid last night. The only question is (and a rather novice one), where should I put the ooth? I'm thinking about putting it outside but since they aren't abundant in my area that might not work. I also thought about keeping them in room temperature but I don't know what type of negative side effects could come up. And finally, the fridge, which I would put them in there but I'm uncertain as to how frequently I should mist the container so the eggs don't dry out. Right now it is still in the container with the female. Thanks in advance.


Congrats! After laying, it does seem normal for them to gorge themselves on more food!

I'd say don't worry about the misting. I've had un-misted _religiosa_ ooths still hatch ~100%. They usually require higher humidity when it starts hatching, otherwise many will get stuck. So I'd start misting once the ooth is out of the fridge.

If yours were wild caught from your area, I don't see why you couldn't just leave it outside...


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## hierodula (Sep 7, 2009)

my female fell a little sick, so im handfeeding her various crushed insects and honey and she is slowly getting fatter and stronger


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## MantidLord (Sep 7, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Congrats! After laying, it does seem normal for them to gorge themselves on more food!I'd say don't worry about the misting. I've had un-misted _religiosa_ ooths still hatch ~100%. They usually require higher humidity when it starts hatching, otherwise many will get stuck. So I'd start misting once the ooth is out of the fridge.
> 
> If yours were wild caught from your area, I don't see why you couldn't just leave it outside...


Thanks, So I should just put it in the fridge for a couple of weeks? And these were caught in Northern California. I've only seen two Europeans out here but never near where I live now. So I'm guessing theirs a reason for that. And also, my subadult male finally molted to an adult today.


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## kamakiri (Sep 7, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Thanks, So I should just put it in the fridge for a couple of weeks? And these were caught in Northern California. I've only seen two Europeans out here but never near where I live now. So I'm guessing theirs a reason for that. And also, my subadult male finally molted to an adult today.


I think a couple of weeks in the fridge should do it. Shortest I've done is three weeks in case you want to do that.


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## ismart (Sep 8, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Congrats! You're lucky to have them out and about!  No other updates on the asian subspecies? Borya? ismart? Anyone else?


I have been meaning to update this awhile now. Sorry about that  

I ended up with 10 adult male _Mantis religiosa siedleckii_, and 7 adult females. I did mange to breed each female about two or three times apiece. I ended up with about 15 normal looking ooths and almost twice as many partial or deformed ooths. I'm really not sure why this was going on. It's been about two months already sice the last female has passed away.  I'm now wating to see if any of these ooths will hatch without any diapause. I am not very hopefull though. I have had some of these ooths incubating for a couple of months already and nothing has hatched. I will hold onto them for a few more weeks before cutting into them just to be safe.


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## kamakiri (Sep 8, 2009)

ismart said:


> I have been meaning to update this awhile now. Sorry about that  I ended up with 10 adult male _Mantis religiosa siedleckii_, and 7 adult females. I did mange to breed each female about two or three times apiece. I ended up with about 15 normal looking ooths and almost twice as many partial or deformed ooths. I'm really not sure why this was going on. It's been about two months already sice the last female has passed away.  I'm now wating to see if any of these ooths will hatch without any diapause. I am not very hopefull though. I have had some of these ooths incubating for a couple of months already and nothing has hatched. I will hold onto them for a few more weeks before cutting into them just to be safe.


That doesn't sound too promising...especially the deformed ooth part. So far, for me, the deformed ones only came from unmated "egg purging". But assuming that some of the earliest ones are at least 3+ months old...that's not a good sign.

Which leads me to one suspicion about _M. religiosa_...is that they are not very tolerant of inbreeding. Just a suspicion, but I thought I'd throw it out there.


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## ismart (Sep 9, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> That doesn't sound too promising...especially the deformed ooth part. So far, for me, the deformed ones only came from unmated "egg purging". But assuming that some of the earliest ones are at least 3+ months old...that's not a good sign.Which leads me to one suspicion about _M. religiosa_...is that they are not very tolerant of inbreeding. Just a suspicion, but I thought I'd throw it out there.


I decieded to cut open a few of the ooths and see what is going on. It would appear that some of them are infertile. I did whitness mating, but i guess the males did not get the job done, or the females rejected there sperm. I would have hoped to at least get one good hatch out of all those ooths. Now i just need to try and figure out what i did wrong?


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## kamakiri (Sep 9, 2009)

ismart said:


> Now i just need to try and figure out what i did wrong?


If I remember correctly, you were working only with one ooth. If my suspicion about inbreeding is correct, then it could explain what happened so far.

Too bad Luke isn't around any more...  it would be nice to try again.


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## MantidLord (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear that. I pray inbreeding is not the case becasue my female was found a couple feet away from the male she eventually mated with when they were both subadults (so obvioulsy one of them didnt fly there). And I put the ooth in the fridge. I'm still debating how long to leave them in just because I don't know if I should stimulate winter or try to hatch them asap. Another thing Ismart, what is Mantis religiosa siedleckii? is that a subspecies? I remember the discussion but I forget whether or not the masses reached a conclusion to the classification of subspecies with Mantis religiosa.


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## ismart (Sep 10, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> I'm sorry to hear that. I pray inbreeding is not the case becasue my female was found a couple feet away from the male she eventually mated with when they were both subadults (so obvioulsy one of them didnt fly there). And I put the ooth in the fridge. I'm still debating how long to leave them in just because I don't know if I should stimulate winter or try to hatch them asap. Another thing Ismart, what is Mantis religiosa siedleckii? is that a subspecies? I remember the discussion but I forget whether or not the masses reached a conclusion to the classification of subspecies with Mantis religiosa.


Imbreeding should not be a problem for any species of mantis. I would doubt inbreedig that has anything to do with my failure. You should keep that ooth in the fridge for at least two months before you try and hatch it. Do not try and hatch that ooth without a diapause. I have tried that before with only a few weak nymphs hatching out, or nothing at all.

_[Mantis religiosa siedleckii/i] is a sub-species from taiwan. They require no diapause to hatch properly._

I believe there are a buch of different sub-species of _Mantis religiosa in the world. I remember seeing a list some where with all the different sub-species names. I cant remember the names off the top of my head though._


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 10, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> I'm sorry to hear that. I pray inbreeding is not the case becasue my female was found a couple feet away from the male she eventually mated with when they were both subadults (so obvioulsy one of them didnt fly there). And I put the ooth in the fridge. I'm still debating how long to leave them in just because I don't know if I should stimulate winter or try to hatch them asap. Another thing Ismart, what is Mantis religiosa siedleckii? is that a subspecies? I remember the discussion but I forget whether or not the masses reached a conclusion to the classification of subspecies with Mantis religiosa.


I think that this is the thread you want: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?sh...12244&amp;st=60 Christian gave the subspecies including siedleckii on post #73. I can understand why you would be unclear about the outcome!


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## ismart (Sep 10, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> I think that this is the thread you want: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?sh...12244&amp;st=60 Christian gave the subspecies including siedleckii on post #73. I can understand why you would be unclear about the outcome!


Thanks phil! That was the list i was talking about.


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## MantidLord (Sep 11, 2009)

Two months it is. Thanks for the information Ismart and thanks for the link Phil.


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## sbugir (Sep 14, 2009)

My religiosa laid an ooth about a week ago, how long should i wait before i put it into diapause, and how should i put it into diapause. Its about 80 degrees here so I cant leave it outside without frying in the container lol.


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