# Orchid dying I think



## Rick (Aug 17, 2009)

Adult female. Been adult almost two weeks. One eye has turned nearly black and now she is walking in circles and ignoring food. I suspect she is going to die. I fed her a cidaca I found outside a few days ago. Seems her symptoms started soon after that. The cicada appeared fine. This sucks. &lt;_&lt;


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## [email protected] (Aug 17, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]I am sorry, when mine pasted away her her eye truned black in the day time also, Idk about her eating a cicada.[/SIZE]


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## Rick (Aug 17, 2009)

Not really looking for any advice. Just thought I would share.


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## Katnapper (Aug 17, 2009)

Hmmm.... sorry to hear. I hope she doesn't die on you, but there's not much you can do to prevent it that I know of. Take heart that you know as much about mantis keeping as about anyone here... and I'm sure you've given good care. Like you say.... sometimes it just happens. Let us know how it turns out.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 17, 2009)

Tough luck, mate. Is she your only female?


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## Rick (Aug 17, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Hmmm.... sorry to hear. I hope she doesn't die on you, but there's not much you can do to prevent it that I know of. Take heart that you know as much about mantis keeping as about anyone here... and I'm sure you've given good care. Like you say.... sometimes it just happens. Let us know how it turns out.


Shes the one I got from you. No Phil I have one more.


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## revmdn (Aug 17, 2009)

Bummer. I've only had male orchids, I didn't realize the females could take a cicada down.


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## Rick (Aug 17, 2009)

Whatever it is it is getting worse. The black is spreading to the rest of the head. She walks in circles. I wish we knew what caused this sort of thing.


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## planetq (Aug 17, 2009)

Awww man.... it's sore to the heart just looking at the pics.

looks like some kind of infection.

I'm sorry man.


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## ismart (Aug 17, 2009)

That is really odd. So sorry!


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## superfreak (Aug 17, 2009)

if it was anywhere else on her body shed prob be able to amputate it


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## Katnapper (Aug 17, 2009)

Rick said:


> Shes the one I got from you.


Yes, Rick... I figured.  Please don't worry about it... these things just happen.  

Wait... :huh: I know....  you punched her and gave her a black eye! :angry: :lol: You know I'm just kidding....  trying for some light relief for a sad subject.


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## Rick (Aug 17, 2009)

I'll post more pics if it changes tomorrow. I disinfected the enclosure but I doubt that will do anything at all.


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## revmdn (Aug 17, 2009)

Are you going to use the freezer soon?


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## Katnapper (Aug 17, 2009)

Just curious.... Has anyone ever heard of aputating an "infected" mantis eye before? Hmmm.... If worse comes to worse, it might not hurt to experiment. Then put on some antibiotic ointment, I'd think... and see how it goes. If it gets to the point of nothing to lose... it might be worth a try.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2009)

She appears to be mostly dead today. I couldn't cut the eye off since the head is turning black too.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 18, 2009)

I had one last week that had same problem, she died too.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2009)

Well she is still alive but her entire head is almost black.


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## Katnapper (Aug 18, 2009)

Rick said:


> Well she is still alive but her entire head is almost black.


Maybe it's a blackhead...  Sorry, that was really bad.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Maybe it's a blackhead...  Sorry, that was really bad.


It is but I don't think squeezing it is gonna do her any good.


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## ABbuggin (Aug 18, 2009)

She looks really bad, you can see in the pic that the left side is decomposing (the wrinkle look). Sorry for the loss.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2009)

ABbuggin said:


> She looks really bad, you can see in the pic that the left side is decomposing (the wrinkle look). Sorry for the loss.


Still allive but is acting weird. Just gonna end it now.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 18, 2009)

poor thing.


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## planetq (Aug 19, 2009)

Hey Rick-

Did you by any chance feed the orchid crickets?

I found this topic on a mantis section of a phasmid forum:

http://www.insectstore.com/phasmid/showthread.php?t=1332

The starter of the topic writes:

"I just found out by talking to my friend Philip Eglise (who is a bit a a pro when it comes to mantis) that crickets may be really bad for Praying Mantis, he is friends with other pros and they are experimenting with Mantis food items and crickets can possibly cause a condition called black eye and ultametly a premature death."

I know you can't take anything written on the internet as definite truth, especially ones involving a hypothesis as above.

But to me, when he mentioned 'condition called black eye' that just reminded me of the picture you took of your mantis.

I don't know. Did you feed her crickets?

It may not be definite truth by any means, but it seems like at least some other people have experienced what you did, and they predict that crickets caused them.

Also, reading further more of that forum post,

a couple people mention reptiles going sick, and also empusidae members having infertile ooths after too much chitin intake from crickets.

I wonder if chitin itself would have a problem to do with black eye?? I don't really see the connection, other than chitin being extremely biodegradable (meaning they are very fungus-prone/micro-organism inviting).

If this is the case...I do wonder if the cicada was the problem, as they are probably overflowing and dripping to the floor with chitin. I would think cicadas have ALOT more chitin than crickets, just judging them by their looks.

Minkyu


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## Rick (Aug 19, 2009)

calarts_security said:


> Hey Rick-Did you by any chance feed the orchid crickets?
> 
> I found this topic on a mantis section of a phasmid forum:
> 
> ...


This mantis never ate a single cricket. However, I normally do feed all of my mantids crickets. I don't buy into the theory that they are bad for mantids at all. Almost all mantids I have kept have been fed crickets almost exclusively. This mantis ate bluebottle flies and a cicada. This issue started after eating a wild cicada.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 19, 2009)

Minkyu, thanks for the info, I have heard not to feed them crickets and I did give my one girl with the black eye a cricket. So good to know, thanks so much!


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## Ntsees (Aug 19, 2009)

Rick said:


> Adult female. Been adult almost two weeks. One eye has turned nearly black and now she is walking in circles and ignoring food. I suspect she is going to die. I fed her a cidaca I found outside a few days ago. Seems her symptoms started soon after that. The cicada appeared fine. This sucks. &lt;_&lt;


Hmm...it probably was injured somehow. Have you fed it anything that could have been potentially dangerous or have you mated her with a male?

(is the spot where i pointed the arrow a piece of dust or is that a damage spot?)

(sorry I'm not good that this, you'll have to click the picture to enlarge it)


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## Ntsees (Aug 19, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Just curious.... Has anyone ever heard of aputating an "infected" mantis eye before? Hmmm.... If worse comes to worse, it might not hurt to experiment. Then put on some antibiotic ointment, I'd think... and see how it goes. If it gets to the point of nothing to lose... it might be worth a try.


I don't know how other mantids differ, but in my experience with my mantids, the mantid has to be close to 100% free of damage in order to survive it's longest. A part of an antennae missing may be fine but any damage, like an aputated leg considerably lowers it's life span. This applys only for adults for me.


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## planetq (Aug 19, 2009)

Rick said:


> This mantis never ate a single cricket. However, I normally do feed all of my mantids crickets. I don't buy into the theory that they are bad for mantids at all. Almost all mantids I have kept have been fed crickets almost exclusively. This mantis ate bluebottle flies and a cicada. This issue started after eating a wild cicada.


I think it depends on the mantis' natural diet.

The Hymenopodidae family and Empusidae family are observed by some to not eat crickets or related locusts. I'm sure other species are just fine eating crickets as they do that in their natural diet anyway.

But if Hymenopodidae are in a lot of cases 'flower-perchers' than they would most likely have a diet consisting of flying insects.

Even the observation article by entomologist Fabre stated that when the Empusa met the locust, even though it was small, rejected it and bounced it away.(but when offered a fly, took it gladly)

If you really think about it I guess Hymenopodidae would probably not include too much chitin-abundant insects in their diet too much. A lot of flying feeders are soft-bellied.

I think some mantises are very selective with what they eat. Not all mantises eat every bug that passes by.

Strange though, I would think chitin is like calcium to insects. Maybe they don't need too much of it once they've become adult, since they don't shed anymore.

Maybe the cicada was the issue..



hibiscusmile said:


> Minkyu, thanks for the info, I have heard not to feed them crickets and I did give my one girl with the black eye a cricket. So good to know, thanks so much!


No problem Rebecca!  

Minkyu


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## d17oug18 (Aug 19, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> I don't know how other mantids differ, but in my experience with my mantids, the mantid has to be close to 100% free of damage in order to survive it's longest. A part of an antennae missing may be fine but any damage, like an aputated leg considerably lowers it's life span. This applys only for adults for me.


i disagree with this, i have a crebroter elongata with no raptor pinkies, and 3 amputated legs(cut only at the feet). Its living long enough to see her kids become adult as well. Ive had major injury mantis live alot longer then 100% mantis. From my expierence i dont think it matters about injury.

Doug


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## Rick (Aug 19, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> Hmm...it probably was injured somehow. Have you fed it anything that could have been potentially dangerous or have you mated her with a male?(is the spot where i pointed the arrow a piece of dust or is that a damage spot?)
> 
> (sorry I'm not good that this, you'll have to click the picture to enlarge it)


No damage on this mantis. She was only an adult for a couple weeks. The eye at first was just a little dark and I thought maybe there was less light on the side the eye was on. It just got darker and darker. I still disagree on the cricket thing. This mantis never ate crickets but in the past I fed orchids and other similar type mantids crickets almost 100% without issues.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 19, 2009)

calarts_security said:


> Strange though, I would think chitin is like calcium to insects. Maybe they don't need too much of it once they've become adult, since they don't shed anymore.Minkyu


This is such a nice idea that it is a pity that it is not true. Chitin is not made from digested chitin any more than bone is made from digested bone. It is made of polyscharides bound by protein and can occur as "hard" or "soft" chitin. I haven't checked on Google, but there must be plenty of sites about it. Interesting stuff!


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## Ntsees (Aug 19, 2009)

d17oug18 said:


> i disagree with this, i have a crebroter elongata with no raptor pinkies, and 3 amputated legs(cut only at the feet). Its living long enough to see her kids become adult as well. Ive had major injury mantis live alot longer then 100% mantis. From my expierence i dont think it matters about injury.Doug


Wow, they can live that long with those wounds? I guess there are more things that I still need to learn since I only have experience with just a few mantid species.


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## Borya (Aug 19, 2009)

*Rick*, what species of cicada was it?


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## Rick (Aug 19, 2009)

Borya said:


> *Rick*, what species of cicada was it?


Tibicen canicularis, dog day cicada. Same one I use everytime I feed them to mantids.


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## inferno (Aug 24, 2009)

is that a nazi helmet on the turtle


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 25, 2009)

inferno said:


> is that a nazi helmet on the turtle


Nope. That's the PASGT kevlar helmet that came out in the early '80s and is now being replaced in turn. A lot of people had the same idea as you, and I think that it was once called the "fritz" helmet for that reason. The fact is, though, that the German Army (there was no such thing as a particular "Nazi" helmet) had an excellent design, which has been extensively modified and copied, unlike the stupid British Army Brodie helmet which came out in WWI and was still in use when I was in.

It is worth noting though, that during WWII there were a number of incidents in which resistance fighters confused the American M1 helmets with the Germans' and opened fire.

Anyway, Rick should be answering this.


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## Rick (Aug 25, 2009)

inferno said:


> is that a nazi helmet on the turtle


No,. &lt;_&lt; 



PhilinYuma said:


> Nope. That's the PASGT kevlar helmet that came out in the early '80s and is now being replaced in turn. A lot of people had the same idea as you, and I think that it was once called the "fritz" helmet for that reason. The fact is, though, that the German Army (there was no such thing as a particular "Nazi" helmet) had an excellent design, which has been extensively modified and copied, unlike the stupid British Army Brodie helmet which came out in WWI and was still in use when I was in.It is worth noting though, that during WWII there were a number of incidents in which resistance fighters confused the American M1 helmets with the Germans' and opened fire.
> 
> Anyway, Rick should be answering this.


You're both wrong. It is a WWII style M1 helmet.


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## Katnapper (Aug 25, 2009)

inferno said:


> is that a nazi helmet on the turtle





PhilinYuma said:


> Nope. That's the PASGT kevlar helmet that came out in the early '80s and is now being replaced in turn. A lot of people had the same idea as you, and I think that it was once called the "fritz" helmet for that reason. The fact is, though, that the German Army (there was no such thing as a particular "Nazi" helmet) had an excellent design, which has been extensively modified and copied, unlike the stupid British Army Brodie helmet which came out in WWI and was still in use when I was in.It is worth noting though, that during WWII there were a number of incidents in which resistance fighters confused the American M1 helmets with the Germans' and opened fire.
> 
> Anyway, Rick should be answering this.





Rick said:


> No,. &lt;_&lt; You're both wrong. It is a WWII style M1 helmet.


You're all wrong... it's a first generation silicon implant mold.


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