# Hierodula grandis vs. Hierodula membranacea



## Seattle79 (Aug 17, 2010)

Is Hierodula grandis a tad bit bigger than Hierodula membranacea? I know they are not the longest mantids, but are these two species the largest as in bulkiness and weight?

Thanks,

-Kevin


----------



## Orin (Aug 17, 2010)

In captivity grandis are a good half inch bigger (it's a big difference) but most grandis you buy are membranacea.


----------



## Seattle79 (Aug 17, 2010)

Orin said:


> In captivity grandis are a good half inch bigger (it's a big difference) but most grandis you buy are membranacea.


Why are most grandis being purchased membranacea? Why not sell/trade true grandis?

Thanks,

-Kevin


----------



## tier (Aug 18, 2010)

Hi

Actually, Orin, I think there was never ever nowhere a _H. grandis_ in stock yet. At least all that have been investigated were _H. membranacea_. I think it's a myth that there was a _H. grandis_ in stock somewhere ever. Well, they were first sold under this name in Germany and soon they were available everywhere, but ALL (= 100%) were just _H. membranacea_. The size differences are just going along with circumstances they are kept in. But all, I mean really all, since there are these two species of this genus available, have always been _H. membranacea_. Its the same with _Alalomantis coxalis_ wich is only _Sphodromantis aurea_ or with _Acanthops falcata_ and _Acanthops parafalcata_, which are all _Acanthops_ sp. I. All the people made up new names to sell their stuff, because people want new species. And especially names like "_grandis_" (~ huge) helps to sell ordinary things. Anyway, in all the years I have never seen a true _H. grandis_, nor have any taxonomy expert ever seen one kept in captivity. It goes so far that these missidentifications, sometimes given meant (because to sell and make more money) - sometimes given unmeant (because of missing knowledge), last for years and are even used by skillfull breeders in skillfull forums about mantids


----------



## Orin (Aug 18, 2010)

tier said:


> The size differences are just going along with circumstances they are kept in.


They were reared for multiple generations under the exact same conditions during the same time period. You are incorrect but without actual experience I'm sure you'll feel you're still right.


----------



## tier (Aug 18, 2010)

Orin said:


> They were reared for multiple generations under the exact same conditions during the same time period. You are incorrect but without actual experience I'm sure you'll feel you're still right.


Yes, you are right, I still feel I am right  

All I know is all people who buy _H. grandis_ think they have _H. grandis_. But all taxonomists who checked them only found _H. membranacea_. So, I don't care about private experience (of me or others), but about scientific facts  

Or do you want to tell me that the size difference is a valid character to distinguish the both species? Come on! I know how to distinguish them, I investigated some (of course only _H. membranacea_). But the scientific key to these species identifications says nothing about size difference. :lol: 

Thus, if you not provide a reference of this "experimet" you are talking about, for me this is just one more myth made up by "somebody" without knowledge.  

edit: And if this "experiment" was private, without any proof-checking, proof-reading or other relevat conditions for science, I will still feel I am right, by the way. B)


----------



## JoeCapricorn (Aug 18, 2010)

A curious pattern has arose in my raising of T. sinensis, speaking of size differences. The ones I raised from nymphhood to adult are females that are about 3 inches long. There is one I raised since a few instars ago, I found her in the wild but I believe she is the same stock of the others - she is about 4 inches long. I found an adult female outside who is about 5 inches long. She is considerably bigger than the mantises I raised, much more than a half-inch difference in size... more like an inch and a half or more.


----------



## Seattle79 (Aug 18, 2010)

Interesting......

-Kevin


----------



## Orin (Aug 21, 2010)

tier said:


> ..., I will still feel I am right, by the way. B)


You have no experience and do no know what you are talking about. You have no interest in science, only your own ego.


----------



## tier (Aug 21, 2010)

What a statement :blink: 

I still feel right, even more now


----------



## Orin (Aug 21, 2010)

Why don't you want to post the characteristics you are using to differeniate the two species? Don't be so fearful of backing up your claims with details or information.

I did not say you could determine a mantis species by it's size. That would be pretty amusing were it true, especially since most people eyeball their mantids rather than use a measuring device.


----------



## tier (Aug 21, 2010)

I used this key:

Vyjayandi, M. C. &amp; T. C. Narendran, 2003. A new species and a key to Indian species of Hierodula Burmeister

(Mantodea: Mantidae). Entomon, 28(4): 315–320.

You can check the characters by yourself.

Btw., as I already told, the so called _Hierodula grandis_ were first sold in Germany, all available so called _H. grandis _ are descandents from this stock which is sold in Germany since many years. And this stock had been keyed out as _H. membranacea_. If you check the IGM Number list, you will see all _Hierodula_ spp. which are in stock or have been in stock. No _H. grandis _ has ever been in stock.

regards

btw: maybe I am no taxonomist of mantodea, but I am an educated Dipl. Biol., and I am taxonomist furthermore.


----------



## Seattle79 (Aug 21, 2010)

You 2 should get a room.......... :huh:


----------

