# This is what I call BIASED, UNTRUTHFUL filmmaking



## AFK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBDdIZiSgQ8

Come on, really, EVERYBODY **KNOWS** a mantis would kick a Japanese giant hornet's abdomen anyday, even if Japanese giant hornets are the -edit- of the insect world.

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I was also able to obtain a copy of this film's script:

0:00 - 0:16 -- Mantis is eating a cicada caught *FAIR AND SQUARE*

0:16 - 0:33 -- Japanese Giant Hornet (JGH) swoops down to try to steal Mantis's meal

0:33 - 0:44 -- JGH gives up and flies away while Mantis searches for another seat, clearly offended by JGH's lack of manners.

0:44 - 1:26 -- JGH #2 joins up with JGH #1 to gang up on Mantis and successfully finally steals Mantis's meal.

1:26 - 1:32 -- (scene cuts to Mantis) Mantis is fuming mad at such ruffneck tactics.

1:32 - 2:19 -- (scene cuts to JGH) JGH is seen shamelessly and gleefully feasting on his stolen meal. A mess is made from sloppy table manners and the viewers cry "boo" at this horrible thuggish spectacle.

2:19 - 2:33 -- Mantis, still fuming mad and not wanting to lose face, storms JGH's hive in an act of vengeance and invertebrate justice.

2:33 - 2:37 -- JGH, realizing he had picked on the wrong dude at the wrong time, has no choice but to confront Mantis in a face-off.

2:37 - 2:49 -- *Mantis is **CLEARLY** winning without a doubt and is shredding JGH to pieces, so to speak.*

2:49 - 3:30 -- (director says "CUT!" and then gutlessly kills Mantis and then hands over now-dead Mantis to JGH...scene then cuts to JGH subduing Mantis so as to LOOK LIKE JGH defeated Mantis, when in fact *it was CLEARLY all set up. HOAX!!!!!*) The rest is bollocks (and Mantis loses face (literally speaking)).


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## AFK

Okay, BEFORE YOU READ THE NEXT POST, make a quick guess now. Who would win? 30 fire ants or 1 camel spider?


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## AFK

This, however, IS unbiased, truthful filmmaking...none of this scene cutting bullcrap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bljM_N-xYY

Please note the filmmaker's inaccuracy though - that is not a spider, but a camel spider, also known as the sun spider or wind scorpion. And camel spiders are not venomous (they just have large, powerful mandibles). That fight was won through brute force, skill, speed, and strength ALONE.


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## AFK

I would consider myself quite an expert on invertrebrates (especially insects), but let me tell you, anyone who knows anything about animals would be totally shocked, surprised, and flabbergasted at the above outcome. I was genuinely totally surprised and blown away. HOLY , huge huge respect for camel spiders. Total badasses. Even a praying mantis would have totally lost from even maybe just 5 fire ants in that small enclosure with no where to run.

But the very first film brings total injustice to mantises all over. I'm so upset.


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## Rob Byatt

Interesting video. There is only one reason it is biased though; because the mantis was mearly walking up the tree that happened to harbour the wasps nest .

The wasp that attacked the mantis was protecting its hive. I'm not sure, but it seems that you have mistaken what happened thereafter. It appears that the mantis tried to catch the wasp. In fact, it is the other way around !

If you look closely, you will see that the wasp got hold of the mantids tibia, the mantis then tried to 'shake' the wasp off. This is not the behaviour of a hungry mantis :wink:

I agree, however, that a mantis of this size is more than capable of killing a giant hornet, but only when it sees it as food and not as a threat.

But a giant hornet is also more than capable of killing a mantis that is trying to defend itself.

Great video though, keep 'em coming !

Rob.


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## Christian

Hi.

Giant hornets are voracious hunters and may well kill a mantid, especially as they attack in small groups. They stalk large invertebrate prey. A mantis may overcome Eurasian hornets and also Giant ones, but one hornet more and the hunter becomes a victim.

Regards,

Christian


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## yen_saw

Yup i would not recommend catching wasp and feeding them to you mantis either, it might get your mantis or before that your fingers! very powerful jaw they have...ouch!


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## Christian

Hi.

Wasps are no problem. Giant hornets are... :twisted:

Regards,

Christian


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## AFK

if the mantis was defending itself, why didn't it fly away?

also, did you notice right before the camera cut to close-up of the mantis and hornet fighting, the mantis assumed its hunting position (front legs folded in)?

lastly, what's up with the cut from the fight to death? the filmmaker is clearly hiding something in between!


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## Rob Byatt

> if the mantis was defending itself, why didn't it fly away?


Because flight is not the primary defense behaviour of an adult female _Tenodera_ (?) sp .



> also, did you notice right before the camera cut to close-up of the mantis and hornet fighting, the mantis assumed its hunting position (front legs folded in)?


Yes, but that does mean to say that everytime a mantis has its forlegs in the praying position it is hunting ? It is just the natural position they assume.



> lastly, what's up with the cut from the fight to death? the filmmaker is clearly hiding something in between!


Probably nothing. But if you know about insects as you say you do, then you will know that a gaint hornet is one of the most persistant insect predators; unlike mantids they are not perturbed by a strong defense from their selected prey. So basically, why show it when the outcome is predictable ?

If you have kept mantids in any numbers, then you will know that a mantis that is distressed can be easily overcome by a smaller cricket. Then compare a cricket to a hornet - not exactly formidable are they :wink:

Rob


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## AFK

haha thanks for the reply rob. couple of things to note. firstly, i copied and pasted all those posts from a thread i started in a fashion forum, so i had to make it entertaining for people who don't know anything about insects to read. secondly, when i made that thread, my main purpose was to provide a cool, rare glimpse of invertebrates through humor (even my last post was following this MO as well). you guys laughed too, right? 8)

but one thing i was actually serious in my copied and pasted posts is that i am indeed extremely knowledgeable about insects. cutting back on the humor, my actual real thoughts (i didn't think anyone would take this jokey thread seriously):

1. i do think a mantis of tenodera size and strength would usually subdue a japanese giant hornet. i say usually because if the hornet just happens to get in at the right angle, her chances are good.

2. 2 hornets vs. any 1 mantis will almost most definitely mean defeat for the mantis.

3. yes, i'm aware mantis's don't default to flight. that's why in that mantis documentary, it just stupidly stood its ground when that hedgehog confronted it. as for why they won't fly away, i'm not really sure lol. maybe they evolved in such a way where there is a greater occurance of threats being more successfully deterred through alarmist stances than through flight. well, some mantis do neither but play dead and/or drop to the ground. bat defense is another can of worms though. sorry for the incessant invertebrate punnery.

4. if you watch the youtube clip again, the mantis was in walking position (front legs resting on the tree) and then it suddenly went into its folding position. the sudden movement means it was deliberate and a reaction to a stimulus. it's a "natural" position when the folded position is slowly and relaxedly assumed. in the clip, the mantis also reared back a bit and its head was strongly fixated on the hornet. looks very much to me like an intense, deliberate position. either hunting or defensive. the latter being possible as well, but it looked a little more like hunting. never owned tenodera, but my gut instinct is that its hunting vs. defensive position wouldn't be so similar unlike the mantises i've kept.

5. the whole scene cut is reaching out for a silly joke, but i'll still maintain that that is nonetheless bad documentary filmmaking technique. however, as a non-documentary, dramatic scene cutting can create shock.

i'd still like to see a large mantis vs. japanese giant hornet duel. near a hive though, even if a mantis was able to kill a japanese giant hornet fast enough, the other hive members will rush in to gang up, and that'd be a quick death.

i agree that you can take advantage of insects' loopholes in their relatively primitive programming. if a mantis is in defense mode, and a cricket is in curious/hunting mode, as long as the mantis doesn't snap out of it and switch to hunting mode, the cricket will bully the mantis. these loopholes are easy to trigger in highly unnatural circumstances, e.g. a small enclosure where stress/nervousness is high.


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## AFK

another good point brought up - the mantis was trying to shake off the hornet rather than trying to catch it.

i've watched that part over and over, and it's so unclear to me that it can be seen either way. EITHER WAY (lol), i don't think it really matters much. have you seen the mantis vs. mouse in the small glass bottle clip? was the mantis defending or hunting? my gut instinct tells me that what probably happens regardless is that once something gets trapped in a mantis's raptorial legs, hunting instincts kick in to test whether whatever is caught in its raptorial legs is edible. i've seen this similar kind of triggered switching behavior from defense mode to hunting mode in many other insects. in comparison to mammals, i've even seen this kind of tendency in reptiles and fish. this brings up another interesting topic - what sort of stimuli trigger different kinds of behaviors/modes/reactions?


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## AFK

but seriously, i really wasn't joking when i said i was totally surprised that 30 ants lost to 1 camel spider...ESPECIALLY since i thought a super small enclosure would give the ants an even bigger and unfair advantage.


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## Jwonni

saw a fire ant Vs Spider recently on somewhere other than youtube if its the same one i too was surprised when it first started i was expecting to see it grab one while all the others piled on and started biting/spraying the spider to death, as we have all seen on documentaries etc ant are dangerous to anything deopending on numbers and size and these were nice sized ants and quite a few of em..... then half way in you start to think "theres a lot of dead ant bodies lying around go on spidey"


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## AFK

> saw a fire ant Vs Spider recently on somewhere other than youtube if its the same one i too was surprised when it first started i was expecting to see it grab one while all the others piled on and started biting/spraying the spider to death, as we have all seen on documentaries etc ant are dangerous to anything deopending on numbers and size and these were nice sized ants and quite a few of em..... then half way in you start to think "theres a lot of dead ant bodies lying around go on spidey"


lmao! exactly what was going through my head too. camel spiders are freakin amazing. wow. biggest invertrabrate upset of the year.


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## enlightenment

Good thread!

How do you think the following would pan out then...

Thai Black Spider v Emperor Scorpion

Assasin Bug v Praying Mantis


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## AFK

> Good thread!How do you think the following would pan out then...
> 
> Thai Black Spider v Emperor Scorpion
> 
> Assasin Bug v Praying Mantis


hmmm, well, i am only really most knowledgeable about insects, so not sure between those 2. i know the emperor scorpion is pretty well armored, but not sure how well it would use its long front pincers to keep its distance from a spider pounce...but yeah, i don't think i've even heard of a thai black spider lol.

assassin bug vs. praying mantis.

i'm assuming the largest assassin bug vs. the largest mantis. hmm, tough one too. i think this will be a matter of which will win more often. i can both subdueing each other in different circumstances, but i think i'll have to go with the mantis having more wins.


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## AFK

tarantula hawk wasp vs. mantis

now that i wanna see. how often would a mantis be able to grab a THW without getting stung?


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## AFK

at this point though, looks like invertebrates are full of surprises. i actually thought 30 large nasty ants would always subdue ANY single other invertebrate.


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## enlightenment

WHat is the largest and sturdiest PM that there is?

How do you think it would cope with a centipede?

Steve


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## AFK

largest and sturdiest? hmm, not sure...i'll leave that one up to the mantis specialists here. hierodula and tenodera tend to be pretty hefty and burly. didn't the mantis documentary that the discovery channel did also use hierodula for the mouse/snake/hummingbird footage?

hmm, against the largest centipede, i think the centipede would unfortunately win most of the time. it's so long and each segment has strong legs and it could use that to move the mantis around even if the mantis has the centipede in its grip. i think the only way a mantis would win is if:

1. the mantis grabs the centipede close to the head...that way, the centipede won't be able to wrap its head for a poisonous bite. on the otherhand, i was also surprised that the 9 inch corn snake in that mantis documentary wasn't able to bite the mantis?!! i'm sure a giant centipede would be to though with no problem.  

2. the mantis makes repeated lunge attacks and backs off. the mantis is physically more capable of doing this than a centipede.

unfortunately, i don't think any mantis is SMART enough to do either #1 or #2, so it's entirely up to chance for #1 or #2 to happen.

that's my guess. haha i love these speculative animal duels.

great white shark vs. saltwater crocodile?


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## Rick

> largest and sturdiest? hmm' date=' not sure...i'll leave that one up to the mantis specialists here. hierodula and tenodera tend to be pretty hefty and burly. didn't the mantis documentary that the discovery channel did also use hierodula for the mouse/snake/hummingbird footage?quote']
> 
> No that was Sphodromantis which I think is even more aggressive than hierodula.


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## AFK

i was just doing a google search for "largest mantis" and some sites are saying Ischnomantis gigas. anyone got a picture of one?

i've always thought this dude was the largest (but it's not stout and burly like a sphodromantis):


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## enlightenment

> i was just doing a google search for "largest mantis" and some sites are saying Ischnomantis gigas. anyone got a picture of one?i've always thought this dude was the largest (but it's not stout and burly like a sphodromantis):


Jeez, what on earth is that!

Anyway, I agree, I think the Centipede would beat any Mantis, even if the Mantis was hanging from above, and grabbed it, I think it would likely let go, and the Cetipide woud escape.

If they were kept in the same tank however, I think the Pede, which can climb glass, would win by ambushing the Mantis.

Re the earlier mentioned Assasin Bugs, I am told that they are able to emit a smell that repels potential predators, as well as having a very nasy bite.


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## enlightenment

> largest and sturdiest? hmm, not sure...i'll leave that one up to the mantis specialists here. hierodula and tenodera tend to be pretty hefty and burly. didn't the mantis documentary that the discovery channel did also use hierodula for the mouse/snake/hummingbird footage?hmm, against the largest centipede, i think the centipede would unfortunately win most of the time. it's so long and each segment has strong legs and it could use that to move the mantis around even if the mantis has the centipede in its grip. i think the only way a mantis would win is if:
> 
> 1. the mantis grabs the centipede close to the head...that way, the centipede won't be able to wrap its head for a poisonous bite. on the otherhand, i was also surprised that the 9 inch corn snake in that mantis documentary wasn't able to bite the mantis?!! i'm sure a giant centipede would be to though with no problem.
> 
> 2. the mantis makes repeated lunge attacks and backs off. the mantis is physically more capable of doing this than a centipede.
> 
> unfortunately, i don't think any mantis is SMART enough to do either #1 or #2, so it's entirely up to chance for #1 or #2 to happen.
> 
> that's my guess. haha i love these speculative animal duels.
> 
> great white shark vs. saltwater crocodile?


Great White would snap it in two, game over.


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## Sheldon Johnson

Its a toxodera, which is a rather nice mantis and has only been kept in captivity a few times, as far as im aware; unsucessfully.


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## enlightenment

I bet shedding would be one of the biggest problems for it, I have also found this with Dead Leaf types, and Twig Mantids, etc...


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