# Mantid Hybrids???



## kmsgameboy (Jul 12, 2009)

In most animal hobbies you can easily find hybrid/crossbreed animals but it seems this isnt the case for mantids...does anyone know why??? What exactly would need to be done to create a hybrid/crossbreed? Has anyone tried?


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## beckyl92 (Jul 12, 2009)

nothing happens if they end up mating. their ooth will be infertile. it just doesn't happen x)

would be cool if you could though..


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## massaman (Jul 12, 2009)

all of the breeders or most of them would say that its impossible to cross breed or make a hybrid mantis or actually create some to survive if at all as if any did happen to survive they would all be sterile and a waste of a good insect!


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## massaman (Jul 12, 2009)

its possible but very rare to succeed in such a thing as hybrids but the males would all be sterile if any did survive and i think only the females if any lived would be able to reproduce but only with the insect that was used in the breeding!


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## mantidsaresweet (Jul 12, 2009)

It would be interesting to try with 2 similar species like the Tenodera angustipennis (Narrow-Winged) and Tenodera aridifolia sinensis (Chinese) and see what the results are of the attempt.

That would be sweet if you could breed a new mantis species!!!  :lol:


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## bassist (Jul 12, 2009)

It has been attempted with _Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii_ and _Pseudocreobotra ocellata_ the larvae where sterile as others have said.


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## ismart (Jul 12, 2009)

mantidsaresweet said:


> It would be interesting to try with 2 similar species like the Tenodera angustipennis (Narrow-Winged) and Tenodera aridifolia sinensis (Chinese) and see what the results are of the attempt.That would be sweet if you could breed a new mantis species!!!  :lol:


I tryed to cross breed Tenodera angustipennis with Tenodera sinensis. It proved to be futile. The male angustipennis was not able to connect with the female sinensis. I only did try it in that order. I have both of these species in a near by park, where there ranges over lap. I have yet to come across a wild hybrid, if thats even possible?


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## worldofmantis (Jul 12, 2009)

is ther any pictures of the psudeocreobatra hybrids? id like to see them


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## bassist (Jul 12, 2009)

chris_carson said:


> is ther any pictures of the psudeocreobatra hybrids? id like to see them


http://ttwebbase.dyndns.org/mantid/view/153.html


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## worldofmantis (Jul 12, 2009)

bassist said:


> http://ttwebbase.dyndns.org/mantid/view/153.html


not that different actually...


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## jameslongo (Jul 12, 2009)

A similar principle of breeding a horse with a donkey applies to mantids. Breed different species of the same genus &amp; you'll end up with a mule  Only difference is mantid hybrids are considerably weaker than their pure-bred counterparts.


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## Rick (Jul 13, 2009)

ismart said:


> I tryed to cross breed Tenodera angustipennis with Tenodera sinensis. It proved to be futile. The male angustipennis was not able to connect with the female sinensis. I only did try it in that order. I have both of these species in a near by park, where there ranges over lap. I have yet to come across a wild hybrid, if thats even possible?


He is able physically. That particular male probably just wasn't ready to mate or something. If similar sized they can mate. I had a male giant asian mate with a chinese. The two you are talking about are so similar.


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## agent A (Jul 13, 2009)

nymphal mortality would be pretty high, I think that real similar species could mate, but I don't encourage tampering with the natural course of nature.


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## ismart (Jul 13, 2009)

Rick said:


> He is able physically. That particular male probably just wasn't ready to mate or something. If similar sized they can mate. I had a male giant asian mate with a chinese. The two you are talking about are so similar.


He was ready to mate. He had been an adult for a month already. There is a big size difference between males of both these species. T. angustipennis males are much smaller than your common T. sinensis males. The females of both species are very similar in size. the male angustipennis tried, but could not open the female. I think the best way to explain this would be to say he was coming up a bit small. If i was to pair up a male T. sinensis with a famale T. angustipennis the results might have been better. Charateristics of genitalia also play an important role on if two different species can even mate.


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## Rick (Jul 13, 2009)

ismart said:


> He was ready to mate. He had been an adult for a month already. There is a big size difference between males of both these species. T. angustipennis males are much smaller than your common T. sinensis males. The females of both species are very similar in size. the male angustipennis tried, but could not open the female. I think the best way to explain this would be to say he was coming up a bit small. If i was to pair up a male T. sinensis with a famale T. angustipennis the results might have been better. Charateristics of genitalia also play an important role on if two different species can even mate.


I was under the impression that those two are nearly identical. Both are found around here but I have only found females. With the exception of the underarm color and the under wings they are the same unless I am mistaken.


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## ismart (Jul 13, 2009)

Rick said:


> I was under the impression that those two are nearly identical. Both are found around here but I have only found females. With the exception of the underarm color and the under wings they are the same unless I am mistaken.


The genitalia is a bit different from what i remember. Rick, our impression is on point. I only did try to breed them once. Maybe i can try again, and this time i will use a T. sinensis male, and a T. angusitpennis female and see what happens.


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## Rick (Jul 13, 2009)

ismart said:


> The genitalia is a bit different from what i remember. Rick, our impression is on point. I only did try to breed them once. Maybe i can try again, and this time i will use a T. sinensis male, and a T. angusitpennis female and see what happens.


Why would the reproductive organs be different. In most species they look the same. I can't imagine that would be different between these two. Every now and then I find wild mantids that are smaller than the norm so maybe this male was.


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## ismart (Jul 13, 2009)

Rick said:


> Why would the reproductive organs be different. In most species they look the same. I can't imagine that would be different between these two. Every now and then I find wild mantids that are smaller than the norm so maybe this male was.


The male T. angustipennis i have come across over the last three years were all about the same size. He was not smaller than the norm. Maybe your right. I don't normally stare at mantid genitalia for to long periods of time to see if there are any significant differences :lol: . The one thing that does make me wonder is the difference between the ooths. T. angustipennis lays ooths that are elongated, kinda look like carolina, or european ooths than chinese.


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## agent A (Jul 13, 2009)

mantids are all different


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## kamakiri (Jul 13, 2009)

ismart said:


> I don't normally stare at mantid genitalia for to long periods of time to see if there are any significant differences :lol: .


 :lol: :lol: :lol: Are you sure?  

But back on topic...hybridization doesn't seem to be a significant advantage in much of the insect world. Generally speaking, inbreeding seems to have had a much greater effect on modern insects.


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## chun (Jul 13, 2009)

Rick said:


> Why would the reproductive organs be different. In most species they look the same. I can't imagine that would be different between these two. Every now and then I find wild mantids that are smaller than the norm so maybe this male was.


insect sexual organs are often species specific to prevent interspecific (between species) mating when two species overlap in their distribution and habitat.


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## ismart (Jul 13, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: Are you sure?
> 
> My secret is out! You got me :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## [email protected] (Jul 13, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]Just a thought well with hisser's the different species can and do cross breed.[/SIZE]


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## Rick (Jul 14, 2009)

chun said:


> insect sexual organs are often species specific to prevent interspecific (between species) mating when two species overlap in their distribution and habitat.


Mantid sex organs look exactly the same on most species.


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## chun (Jul 14, 2009)

Rick said:


> Mantid sex organs look exactly the same on most species.


insect reproductive organs can act as interspecific premating barriers. You can't assume that they look the same without dissecting the organs and assessing it on a microscope. Genetalia and abdominal segments associated with the reproductive organs (which are hidden internally) are often used to identify hard-to-identify species such as dragonflies and lepidopterans, and i'm sure genetalia plays a role in mantid identification as well.


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## Rick (Jul 14, 2009)

chun said:


> insect reproductive organs can act as interspecific premating barriers. You can't assume that they look the same without dissecting the organs and assessing it on a microscope. Genetalia and abdominal segments associated with the reproductive organs (which are hidden internally) are often used to identify hard-to-identify species such as dragonflies and lepidopterans, and i'm sure genetalia plays a role in mantid identification as well.


Obviously you have more knowledge in this aspect than I do as I am the first to admit I am not expert. I did have a chinese and a giant asian connect as normal.


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## ismart (Jul 14, 2009)

Out of curiosity, i have reed some people managed to cross breed Stagmomantis carolina with Stagmomantis limbata. In whitch order were they breed (meaning S. carolina male with S. limbata female or vise versa) to have a connection? Has anybody on this forum done this before? I have currently a male S. limbata, and a female S. carolina. I have already paired them up twice with no connection taking place. I plan on trying again later today, and yes they are both sexually ready. The male S. limbata has already successfully mated with a S. limbata female.


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## Rick (Jul 14, 2009)

ismart said:


> Out of curiosity, i have reed some people managed to cross breed Stagmomantis carolina with Stagmomantis limbata. In whitch order were they breed (meaning S. carolina male with S. limbata female or vise versa) to have a connection? Has anybody on this forum done this before? I have currently a male S. limbata, and a female S. carolina. I have already paired them up twice with no connection taking place. I plan on trying again later today, and yes they are both sexually ready. The male S. limbata has already successfully mated with a S. limbata female.


They should be able to. They are essentially the same thing. Whether it or not the ooths will be fertile I don't know.


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## kamakiri (Jul 14, 2009)

ismart said:


> I have currently a male S. limbata, and a female S. carolina.


I think Doug has the same 'combo'. Too bad it's not the opposite!


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## ismart (Jul 14, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> I think Doug has the same 'combo'. Too bad it's not the opposite!


I do have an adult carolina male, but my only adult female limbata has been mated by a limbata male already.


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## d17oug18 (Jul 14, 2009)

i think the females i have are carolina's but someone mentioned it could be californica(never heard of it) it looks like a limbata but the wings are black with brown edges, if you want i can try to mate them, though it may kill my male as he has mated twice already.


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## Rick (Jul 14, 2009)

d17oug18 said:


> i think the females i have are carolina's but someone mentioned it could be californica(never heard of it) it looks like a limbata but the wings are black with brown edges, if you want i can try to mate them, though it may kill my male as he has mated twice already.


It won't kill him. He can mate many more times than that. Only thing that will kill him is old age or the female eating him.


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## kmsgameboy (Jul 18, 2009)

Wow....Im learning a lot!


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## d17oug18 (Jul 18, 2009)

just thought sense i saw this thread again that i mated the carolina and limbata, all it is now is a waiting game now. the male is getting tons of tail lol 3rd mate so far and still alive.


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## PhilinYuma (Jul 19, 2009)

See post #8 here: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?sh...c=13157&amp;hl= I strongly agree with the secod para.

A major reason for the males' failure to fertilize the female of another species is that each species tends to have different shaped genitalia, causing the male to do an "Onan." So distinct are they, that in some orders, like the Odonata, they are used to identify a species.

Edit: Just in case someone is not familiar with Onan, see Genesis 38.8.


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## kmsgameboy (Jul 29, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> See post #8 here: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?sh...c=13157&amp;hl= I strongly agree with the secod para.A major reason for the males' failure to fertilize the female of another species is that each species tends to have different shaped genitalia, causing the male to do an "Onan." So distinct are they, that in some orders, like the Odonata, they are used to identify a species.
> 
> Edit: Just in case someone is not familiar with Onan, see Genesis 38.8.


LOL


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## utterbeastage (Aug 10, 2009)

Rick said:


> Obviously you have more knowledge in this aspect than I do as I am the first to admit I am not expert. I did have a chinese and a giant asian connect as normal.


All seriousness aside , Imagine cross-breeding and getting...

HYMENOPUS DIABOLICA!


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## massaman (Aug 10, 2009)

Also it would be inhumanely impossible to cross a giant mantis with a smaller mantis hence the size difference of the insects and their reproductive organs and there would be no way to do it with those with a huge size difference!


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