# Your view on Toyota...



## kamakiri (Feb 9, 2010)

Forgive me for doing a bit of market research here, but with our international community...I'm curious what the impacts of the recalls are.

Do you currently own a Toyota? A recall model?

Would you buy another Toyota again?

If you haven't ever owned a Toyota, what do you think of the company now?

All opinions welcome!


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## TanteEdgar (Feb 9, 2010)

We should rename the movie "Total Recall" to "Toyota Recall".


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## kamakiri (Feb 9, 2010)

Mantid Man said:


> We should rename the movie "Total Recall" to "Toyota Recall".


 :lol: Thanks for the joke, but you're exactly the kind of member I want to hear from on this!


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## ZoeRipper (Feb 9, 2010)

My mom has a huge white Toyota Sequoia. Not sure the year.

I like it because it's big and makes me feel safe, but the whole gas prices thing is a no go.

I prefer my bike.


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## Rick (Feb 9, 2010)

Not a fan of foreign cars personally. However, I do like how they stepped up and admitted they screwed up. They are running a commercial that basically says they screwed up. That means a lot.


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## revmdn (Feb 9, 2010)

I still like them.


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## sbugir (Feb 9, 2010)

Rick said:


> Not a fan of foreign cars personally. However, I do like how they stepped up and admitted they screwed up. They are running a commercial that basically says they screwed up. That means a lot.


Something the US cars still need to do :S.

Does anyone recall the 2001 Ford recall?


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## batsofchaos (Feb 9, 2010)

I still like Toyotas, but I wouldn't buy one for a couple of years, not until they've had a chance to work the bugs out and make sure they're no longer selling death-traps.


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## hibiscusmile (Feb 9, 2010)

Sons got one a couple ;years old, is recalled, but gotta agree with Rick, better to fess up then try to hide!


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## Opivy (Feb 9, 2010)

Yup, my friends new car was included in the recall =0


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## PhilinYuma (Feb 9, 2010)

Yeah, I'm with Rick on this one. Anyone who is worried about getting a Toyota for the nex cupla years should definitely stay away from Ford. They have had 8 recalls since 1999 (the 2001 recall was just part of the series that caused recalls again last year, involving 14,000,000 cars). Chevy recalled over a million cars in 2008. I had dinner on Friday with a friend who is a service rep for Toyota in Phoenix and she was saying that all Toyota plants in the US will close for a week to tool up for the refitting. Mechanical things, like the NASA space shuttle, develop mechanical faults. Neither I nor my kids have driven anything but American cars, but it looks as though Toyota is doing the Right Thing.

Mantid Man: I'm not sure whether yr comment was pro or anti Toyota (though _Total Recall_ was the worst adaptation of a Philip K. ###### story, ever), but if anti, do you plan on changing yr Lexus avatar?


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## sbugir (Feb 10, 2010)

Haha, yeah MantidMan...? What's up w/ that?


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## kamakiri (Feb 10, 2010)

Interesting. So most of the opinions are that it's not a really big deal?


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## Katnapper (Feb 10, 2010)

I've never owned a Toyota... have always stuck with Chevy and Plymouth/Dodge. Take that back... I owned a Nissan Pulsar for several years at one point.

I agree that Toyota stepping up and admitting their faults in high profile, and working quickly to try to recall and fix the issues is a good thing. It makes me think I wouldn't hold it against them if I ever chose to consider buying a Toyota product in the future.


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## Peter Clausen (Feb 10, 2010)

Last week I had a conversation with a UPS mechanic/friend that I trust and appreciate for his consistently great car advice/experience. He suggests that a Japanese car is good to 150,000 miles and an American to 100,000 miles (on average). He says sell them a bit before they reach these points or issues will begin to surface.

As for the Toyota issue, I'm saddened that they are going to lose so much money fixing 400,000 cars (yesterday's count on NPR which went up from 200,000 before Mr. Toyota gave a rare speech).

I currently drive a Japanese car (5 years now) and though I replaced the battery in it for the first time two days ago, I've had no additional issues with it. I've had a few Fords and lots of problems with them. The way I see it, it boils down to time. American cars are cheaper, but value deflates quickly and repairs are more common. I don't like breakdowns and I don't like taking my car to the shop. It pretty much evens out from a financial standpoint when you consider the US vs. Japanese vehicle. The issue of what purchasing an American vs. Japanese car does for a local or country's ecomony is another issue all together.


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## Rick (Feb 10, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> Yeah, I'm with Rick on this one. Anyone who is worried about getting a Toyota for the nex cupla years should definitely stay away from Ford. They have had 8 recalls since 1999 (the 2001 recall was just part of the series that caused recalls again last year, involving 14,000,000 cars). Chevy recalled over a million cars in 2008. I had dinner on Friday with a friend who is a service rep for Toyota in Phoenix and she was saying that all Toyota plants in the US will close for a week to tool up for the refitting. Mechanical things, like the NASA space shuttle, develop mechanical faults. Neither I nor my kids have driven anything but American cars, but it looks as though Toyota is doing the Right Thing.Mantid Man: I'm not sure whether yr comment was pro or anti Toyota (though _Total Recall_ was the worst adaptation of a Philip K. ###### story, ever), but if anti, do you plan on changing yr Lexus avatar?


The only brand I would buy right now is Ford. They have really stepped things up. All car makers have recalls. And Ford didn't take any bailout money. But of course I am a Ford fanboy. They have so many nice things out right now.


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## d17oug18 (Feb 10, 2010)

i bought a toyota like literally days before the recall, it wasnt mine that needed to be recalled, used 2005 toyota corolla Xrs, but it still sucks that if i waited a few more days i could've gotten it a heck of a lot cheaper =/, the cars BB value was 12 and i got it at 13. By the way, WHATS UP YALL!!!!! sorry i disappeared for so long ^_^ MANTIS FORUM ROCKS!


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## kamakiri (Feb 10, 2010)

Well, I'm pretty surprised by most of the responses.

I've only owned 1 Toyota...and it was a used '80 Celica Supra that I owned in the mid-late 90's as my surfer/beater car. I loved that car  and it fit a 9'6" longboard just fine. I've respected Toyota for a long time. Read (most of) The Toyota Way and appreciate the general culture of the company. I've owned and worked on several brands of cars...computer controlled and carburated...foreign and domestic.

Anyway, I'm really *alarmed* by one of the problems. Now, I have been skeptical of 'drive-by-wire' throttle systems since I first learned of them...mostly from the fly-by-wire problems experienced by an Airbus jets that have crashed since the late 80's. So when I first heard of the problem with a Lexus killing a California highway patrol officer and his family(this story), I suspected the electronic throttle control system to be at fault. Learning that Toyota claimed the problem was from floor mats was just ridiculous to me. Seeing the proposed fix last week with shims to the pedal system is quite frankly disturbing. That's because the only way to rule out that 'fix' will be when somebody else dies in a car with that shim installed.  

Last year, I witnessed an event in a parking lot with a Lexus SUV. It pulled into a parking stall and came to a complete stop. Suddenly, it lurched over the curb in front of it and hit a large date palm. The lady driving it looked confused that this happened. I asked her if she was okay and signalled with her hand that she was. I figured it was just her. And I was walking just on the other side of the tree when this happened.

When I put that incident together with the CHP story and the recall...I became very alarmed. After all the latest news, I can only think that they are still hiding the problem...even though they seem to be doing an excellent job at PR at the moment.


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## TanteEdgar (Feb 10, 2010)

I have a Celica 2.0GT 1986mod. 1190kg of sh*t. It's worn out. But I'm looking for a Lexus IS200 so I'll stick with Toyota. I was looking for a Celica GT4 1992mod (the best looking body, ST18) but you pay the same for a almost 20 year old Celica as a 9 year old Lexus.... There is really nothing to think about...


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## PhilinYuma (Feb 10, 2010)

kamakiri said:


> Well, I'm pretty surprised by most of the responses.I've only owned 1 Toyota...and it was a used '80 Celica Supra that I owned in the mid-late 90's as my surfer/beater car. I loved that car  and it fit a 9'6" longboard just fine. I've respected Toyota for a long time. Read (most of) The Toyota Way and appreciate the general culture of the company. I've owned and worked on several brands of cars...computer controlled and carburated...foreign and domestic.
> 
> Anyway, I'm really *alarmed* by one of the problems. Now, I have been skeptical of 'drive-by-wire' throttle systems since I first learned of them...mostly from the fly-by-wire problems experienced by an Airbus jets that have crashed since the late 80's. So when I first heard of the problem with a Lexus killing a California highway patrol officer and his family(this story), I suspected the electronic throttle control system to be at fault. Learning that Toyota claimed the problem was from floor mats was just ridiculous to me. Seeing the proposed fix last week with shims to the pedal system is quite frankly disturbing. That's because the only way to rule out that 'fix' will be when somebody else dies in a car with that shim installed.
> 
> ...


First, Grant, I am not an engineer or even a mechanic (that's one of the reasons why I have sons who are), but I do have some idea about FBW, particularly as it is employed in military aircraft. Son David spent much of his career (seven years) as ground crew in several FA18 squadrons, the first military plane to use FBW extensively. As he has pointed out, the use of stabilators instead of elevators in the tail has made it possible for the Hornet to perform maouvers impossible for planes equipped solely with the latter . The problem with the Airbus FBW, aside from the fact that, like Toyota,, it is "foreign", was that its computers had trouble interpreting (or over interpreting) the "proper flight envelope" and had nothing to do with the capability of the "wires" themselves.

Your use of your own experience of a Lexus gone bad ("I was walking just on the other side of the tree when this happened") is powerfully persuasive, but I am sure that you will agree that it has absolutely no statistical value whatsoever.

Nationsl populaces seem to have their own special fears that often have little relationship to reality. In Europe, there is huge resistance to genetically modified crops (perhaps, in part, because they are seen, wrongly, as American?). Fly by Wire, as you have shown, is one of the bugbears over here. An F18A crashed in November of 2008 in San Diego, a fact that interested me for a number of reasons (my son had served a DET at Miramar, we used to live in SD, etc). At the time , I took _Mechanix UIllustrated_ and cancelled my subscription on the basis of this article: http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/ai...ce/4295240.html It turned out, of course, that the plane had run out of fuel, but many readers of the article must still believe that it was due to a FBW issue.

As for the Toyota, issue, friend Andie tells me that the issue was caused by a problem with the accelerator linkage, which, on wear, develops so much tolerance (play) that the accelerator pedal will no longer return to its normal position. This, she assures me, is what the Toyota plants are being tooled up to fix.

Well, that was fun!


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## kamakiri (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't disagree with any of your points except the last...but the problem with the Toyota throttle control is not in the 'wiring' either...but likely in the testing and validation process. Which I'm sure you'd know the F18 would pass with all the gov't regulations. It is a little hard to separate the issues between acceptable inputs and inability to failsafe...so I won't try to here.

The pedal/linkage wear is my understanding of what Toyota is claiming. If what they and your friend says is true, I doubt a shim can permanently fix the problem. It would just delay the inevitable But I doubt even more that it could actually cause the pedal to not return...well at least without a simple diagram of the problem. Either way, we'll know if my suspicions are correct only after there are more accidents or deaths.


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## PhilinYuma (Feb 11, 2010)

kamakiri said:


> I don't disagree with any of your points except the last...but the problem with the Toyota throttle control is not in the 'wiring' either...but likely in the testing and validation process. Which I'm sure you'd know the F18 would pass with all the gov't regulations. It is a little hard to separate the issues between acceptable inputs and inability to failsafe...so I won't try to here.The pedal/linkage wear is my understanding of what Toyota is claiming. If what they and your friend says is true, I doubt a shim can permanently fix the problem. It would just delay the inevitable But I doubt even more that it could actually cause the pedal to not return...well at least without a simple diagram of the problem. Either way, we'll know if my suspicions are correct only after there are more accidents or deaths.


I completely agree with your statement about the function of a "shim", which will make two loosely fitting parts stick together rather than slide against each other as required here. Here is the URL for Toyota's official explanation for folks wot don't know nuffink about cars: http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/...dal-152196.aspx

They are talking down to us, of course, but that's O.K. if the fix works. Yuma is in cattle country and so far to the right that I suspect that any car that is not made in Detroit and carrying a "Support Our Troops" sticker (Made in China) would be quickly impounded by the local police or Sheriff's Dept, but I shall contact Toyota driving friends in Phoenix (including my friend, of course) and Chicago and ask them to let me know if they are injured or fatally killed dead while driving one of these death traps.


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## kamakiri (Feb 11, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> I completely agree with your statement about the function of a "shim", which will make two loosely fitting parts stick together rather than slide against each other as required here. Here is the URL for Toyota's official explanation for folks wot don't know nuffink about cars: http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/...dal-152196.aspxThey are talking down to us, of course, but that's O.K. if the fix works. Yuma is in cattle country and so far to the right that I suspect that any car that is not made in Detroit and carrying a "Support Our Troops" sticker (Made in China) would be quickly impounded by the local police or Sheriff's Dept, but I shall contact Toyota driving friends in Phoenix (including my friend, of course) and Chicago and ask them to let me know if they are injured or fatally killed dead while driving one of these death traps.


 :lol: 

Thanks for the link.

And there it is in the last question:



> *Is there actually a problem with the vehicle’s computer/Electronic Control Unit?* Toyota has never found an incident of unintended acceleration caused by the vehicle’s computer/electronic control unit.


And that's the safest answer they can give at the moment!


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## Rick (Feb 11, 2010)

Ford hasn't had any problem with their drive by wire systems.  

What really cracks me up about this whole thing is how people are scared to drive their cars. Gov is telling people not to drive them. Common sense should apply. Car accelerates.....hit the brakes and throw it in neutral or just turn it off. How hard is that?


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## revmdn (Feb 11, 2010)

It's just easyer to panic. :lol:


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## kamakiri (Feb 15, 2010)

And still more recalls...now for driveshafts on the newer Tacomas.

When it rains...


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## TanteEdgar (Feb 17, 2010)

Haha, I can't wait to see what will happen to Toyota forklifts. Cargo flying everywhere...

I really don't hope that they are making parts for airplanes :blink: 

They would probably get difficulties when landing at 300 knots...


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## -MK- (Feb 18, 2010)

Even though Toyota was rubbish in Formula One (they left the sport this year), I have a very high opinion of the quality of Toyota's road cars overall. At least they have the money that they won't be pouring into F1 to spend on the recall problem.

Drive-by-wire has always freaked me out a little, too. For something as important as the throttle, I prefer a simple mechanical connection with no electronics involved. My cars are old, so it's not a problem.  

And like Rick said, people are so afraid of their own cars! It's really stupid and dangerous to not familiarize oneself with one's machine. What's so tragic about the story of that one guy whose Lexus wouldn't stop accelerating and eventually caused a horrible crash is that it was so easily preventable. The guy found enough time to call 911 and ask THEM what to do, for Chrissake! Just stomp on the brake, take it out of gear, shut it off, and then maybe change your undies. :blink:


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## Rick (Feb 18, 2010)

ANother possible recall on Corolla I think.


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## TanteEdgar (Feb 18, 2010)

-MK- said:


> Even though Toyota was rubbish in Formula One (they left the sport this year), I have a very high opinion of the quality of Toyota's road cars overall. At least they have the money that they won't be pouring into F1 to spend on the recall problem.
> 
> Drive-by-wire has always freaked me out a little, too. For something as important as the throttle, I prefer a simple mechanical connection with no electronics involved. My cars are old, so it's not a problem.
> 
> And like Rick said, people are so afraid of their own cars! It's really stupid and dangerous to not familiarize oneself with one's machine. What's so tragic about the story of that one guy whose Lexus wouldn't stop accelerating and eventually caused a horrible crash is that it was so easily preventable. The guy found enough time to call 911 and ask THEM what to do, for Chrissake! Just stomp on the brake, take it out of gear, shut it off, and then maybe change your undies. :blink:


Well, I doubt he would have time to do that if he was driving a IS-F


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## yen_saw (Feb 18, 2010)

Despite the recall issue, Toyota ranks very high in consumer reports as compared to other vehicles in general.


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## Rick (Feb 19, 2010)

yen_saw said:


> Despite the recall issue, Toyota ranks very high in consumer reports as compared to other vehicles in general.


True, but I think that is a hold over from many years ago. They really used to be much better vehicles however that has not been the case for quite awhile. It was going to catch up with them at some point. I give them credit though for admitting they messed up.


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## kamakiri (Feb 23, 2010)

Rick said:


> True, but I think that is a hold over from many years ago. They really used to be much better vehicles however that has not been the case for quite awhile. It was going to catch up with them at some point. I give them credit though for admitting they messed up.


Well, they admit that they messed up, but I dislike thinking that they denied the problems existed since 2006. Andthen there's the 'smoking gun' document from 2007 that shows that they cared more about the money they saved by not having a recall.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/business/global/24toyota.html?emc=eta1


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## kamakiri (Mar 13, 2010)

And the saga continues...

O.C. D.A. announcing lawsuit against Toyota


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## JoeCapricorn (Mar 13, 2010)

My mom and I both drive a Honda. I drive my mom's old 2004 Honda Accord and she drives a 2008 Honda CRV. They are both great cars, fun to drive (The CRV even TALKS to you... you can tell it to go to XM channel 24 or something or it will give you directions to whatevertheplace)

I have noticed lately that whenever I am behind a Toyota driver, they seem a bit slower than the rest of traffic. lolol


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## ZoeRipper (Mar 13, 2010)

You know, there's something I don't understand. Cars have recalls ALL THE TIME. GM recalled something like 5 million cars a few weeks ago, and there's been practically nothing in the news about it. Why all the craziness about Toyotas?


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## kamakiri (Mar 13, 2010)

ZoeRipper said:


> You know, there's something I don't understand. Cars have recalls ALL THE TIME. GM recalled something like 5 million cars a few weeks ago, and there's been practically nothing in the news about it. Why all the craziness about Toyotas?


I suppose recalls that kill or scare people make the news. The worse part about it IMO is that Toyota seems to be hiding things, and putting former employees into government regulatory agencies. Ethically, it has a pretty bad smell to it.


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## kamakiri (Mar 18, 2010)

Stalling in Corollas...possible 1.2 million car recall:

Finally, a problem with the ECU


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## kamakiri (Mar 31, 2010)

I'm sure you're all sick of the 'hype' over this...but I think it's sad how a strong apologetic ad campaign can easily mask the real issues of saving cost over safety. This TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) from *2002* shows how Toyota understands that an electronically controlled throttle unit can be mis-calibrated and cause unintended acceleration.

2002 TSB

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/22/toyota.throttle.warning/index.html

Deny. Deny. Deny. Then apologize. People forgive lying, cheating politicians and businesses all the time. Sad.


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