# Throwing Up?



## PrayingMantisPets (Sep 28, 2014)

My Hierodula membranacea female L7 is throwing up this brown liquid. I got a cotton ball full of water and put it up to her mouth and she wont drink it. I also tried this with honey. Help needed ASAP!


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## happy1892 (Sep 28, 2014)

What feeders are you feeding her? Store bought crickets have killed my mantids in the past by making them sick. They keep the crickets dirty.


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## soundspawn (Sep 29, 2014)

happy1892 said:


> What feeders are you feeding her? Store bought crickets have killed my mantids in the past by making them sick. They keep the crickets dirty.


Yes always give store bought crickets at least a couple days eating nutritious food before serving them up. A week or more if you can make it that long.

My Rhombodera female fancied throwing up for a while but never acted strange otherwise and kept eating and drinking... she would smear it around like she was marking her territory or something... it's been a good 1-2 months after she suddenly stopped and she's still fine.


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## Digger (Sep 29, 2014)

I've used store-bought crickets for years and not had a problem. They must be gut-loaded for a couple of days (which you indicate you've been doing). I did find, however, that feeding the crickets carrots was a bad bad thing for the mantids. Most mantids vomit brown stuff at one time or another. Experience has also taught me if the upchuck has a strong, sharp, vinegary smell, there's trouble ahead. Like humans, offer her water (drop from your finger, or a very light mist on her and the cage side so she might lick it off). I don't like the idea of a cotton ball because of the threads (probably a little too picky here). Otherwise, you just have to wait until she's ready to take a little water or honey.


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## soundspawn (Sep 29, 2014)

Digger said:


> I did find, however, that feeding the crickets carrots was a bad bad thing for the mantids.


Digger why do you hate carrots so much? As has been discussed in other threads, a lot of breeders here agree carrots are safe, and I've even cited the historical cases where carrots were erroneously blamed for "the black death". I'm curious why your mantids have problems with carrots while mine and everyone else's seem fine.

Please note this is not an attack, but if you are spreading bad (ie third party) information I want to put it to an end, and if you have legitimate information I want the breeders on this forum to know about it so we can all change our methods. It's just odd to have one conflicting account like this. Is it hearsay, a hunch, or have you tried a controlled experiment?


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## Digger (Sep 29, 2014)

SS: No attack inferred  

My observations regarding carrots and adverse effects on mantids are just that - repeated observation with similar and repeated results. It should be noted, these personal observations have only been with Tenodera sinensis. This is not the result of a scientific study. Additionally, I have no theory as to why carrots might cause an adverse effect. That said, my personal decision was to remove this one ingredient from the feeders diet since there are an endless array of other foods from which to choose. I have had excellent luck with oats, fish food flakes, Flukers Cricket meal, broccoli, apple, grapes, lettuce.


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## soundspawn (Sep 29, 2014)

Digger said:


> SS: No attack inferred
> 
> My observations regarding carrots and adverse effects on mantids are just that - repeated observation with similar and repeated results. It should be noted, these personal observations have only been with Tenodera sinensis. This is not the result of a scientific study. Additionally, I have no theory as to why carrots might cause an adverse effect. That said, my personal decision was to remove this one ingredient from the feeders diet since there are an endless array of other foods from which to choose. I have had excellent luck with oats, fish food flakes, Flukers Cricket meal, broccoli, apple, grapes, lettuce.


Well I wish there was something more concrete one way or the other, but you are *absolutely* right that there is plenty of other food to go with so if in doubt there's no reason to use carrots.

Maybe something they spray on carrots in your area? It just now occurred to me they might be "funk added".


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## Aryia (Sep 30, 2014)

Digger said:


> SS: No attack inferred
> 
> My observations regarding carrots and adverse effects on mantids are just that - repeated observation with similar and repeated results. It should be noted, these personal observations have only been with Tenodera sinensis. This is not the result of a scientific study. Additionally, I have no theory as to why carrots might cause an adverse effect. That said, my personal decision was to remove this one ingredient from the feeders diet since there are an endless array of other foods from which to choose. I have had excellent luck with oats, fish food flakes, Flukers Cricket meal, broccoli, apple, grapes, lettuce.


Carrots are actually one of the only things I feed all my feeders now apart from cat-food, and occasionally table scraps. I lightly rinse the carrots with tap water before, and my mantis collection hasn't fallen yet and scientifically speaking if hundreds of mantises are fed on a carrot-feeder based diet and are living, there shouldn't be anything wrong with carrots themselves. I agree with soundspawn that it may be something the carrots were treated with, or simply coincidence. (By the way apparently baby carrots go through a bleaching process, were you using baby carrots by any chance?).

As to the puking, I always advocate offering water, but not force feeding it. To offer water just spray it near your mantis, and they will sense it and if they are thirsty they'll go for it. Sometimes mantises will drink water when you hold it into their mouth even when they don't want to, just to get rid of the liquid that's obstructing their mouth (essentially cleaning it). When that happens they will end up throwing the excess liquid up again later, which is just extra stress for them. I don't like to use cotton balls either ever since a couple of my mantises tried to eat the cotton ball while eating the honey and use something wooden to feed with instead. Mantises will occasionally throw up before a molt, I have a couple that threw up and got better without me doing anything as well. Just make sure your feeders are clean and give your mantis regular chances to drink some water, good luck!


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## Mantidaddicted (Jul 13, 2016)

Aryia said:


> Mantises will occasionally throw up before a molt, I have a couple that threw up and got better without me doing anything as well. Just make sure your feeders are clean and give your mantis regular chances to drink some water, good luck!


I know this is an old thread but I was curious as to the throwing up before a molt? My orchid, Sweet pea, is due for a molt any days and today I noticed she threw up twice, brown liquid she's at the top hanging and I have a paper towel so I can see where she did puke. No diaherra, she did eat a big worm from my garden two days ago and has literally pooped 15+ times. She is showing her typical signs of molting. Anyone have experience with this?? I know people say puking is never a good sign, thanks!


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## Digger (Jul 13, 2016)

Hi M A,

I'll add worms to my carrot prejudice.  If you're referring to an earthworm, my suggestion would be to not repeat that process.  Earthworms might possibly carry insecticides from surrounding water runoff, they might carry pathogens to which mantids are susceptible.  I think a good rule of thumb for our pets is --- feeders which they are bound to find in their natural environment (give or take).  It's highly improbable a mantid is going to find an earthworm dinner where (the mantid) normally spends its time.  This said ---- I have been very successful with ***cooked*** salmon, in keeping the attention of female T. sinensis while a boyfriend was on her back.  I have not tried salmon with any other mantid species, but will attempt this gourmet diversion with my current flock of Taumantis sigiana.  The females are notoriously grouchy at mating.  Regarding feeders caught in the wild ----  moths (of boring color), lacewings (yum), any sp. of fly (house, bluebottle, small iridescent).  I avoid any venomous insect and arachnids, beetles, lightning bugs (poisonous), crane-flies (they'd be terrific if they had a molecule of meat).  And, yes, earthworms.  I'm sure Sweet Pea will be fine, but my personal preference, for safety, is to stick to feeders you know she will find in her immediate natural environment.


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## hibiscusmile (Jul 14, 2016)

Well said about the worms, I never really thought about it, so thanks for adding that.


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## Mantidaddicted (Jul 14, 2016)

Digger said:


> Hi M A,
> 
> I'll add worms to my carrot prejudice.  If you're referring to an earthworm, my suggestion would be to not repeat that process.  Earthworms might possibly carry insecticides from surrounding water runoff, they might carry pathogens to which mantids are susceptible.  I think a good rule of thumb for our pets is --- feeders which they are bound to find in their natural environment (give or take).  It's highly improbable a mantid is going to find an earthworm dinner where (the mantid) normally spends its time.  This said ---- I have been very successful with ***cooked*** salmon, in keeping the attention of female T. sinensis while a boyfriend was on her back.  I have not tried salmon with any other mantid species, but will attempt this gourmet diversion with my current flock of Taumantis sigiana.  The females are notoriously grouchy at mating.  Regarding feeders caught in the wild ----  moths (of boring color), lacewings (yum), any sp. of fly (house, bluebottle, small iridescent).  I avoid any venomous insect and arachnids, beetles, lightning bugs (poisonous), crane-flies (they'd be terrific if they had a molecule of meat).  And, yes, earthworms.  I'm sure Sweet Pea will be fine, but my personal preference, for safety, is to stick to feeders you know she will find in her immediate natural environment.
> 
> View attachment 7914


Sorry I should've been more clear-it was a bud worm? Not just an earth worm. Are those not safe as well?


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## Digger (Jul 14, 2016)

I'm nervous about caterpillars too!  Not sure about budworms.  There are about 50 species (I've had my fill of trouble with them attacking petunias).  I think common species here in the northeast that attack conifers are (probably) ok to try on your mantis.  I'd much prefer waiting until they change into their Tortricidae family of moths --- then feed those to Sweet Pea like mad (ohhhh how weez luuuuvs our moffs --- Subra [male T. sigiana] is munching on one as I type this.

Members on this board undoubtedly have horror stories about some caterpillars - and love stories regarding others.  I do try to mix in wild prey during these summer months, but, as listed above, I definitely stay with those tried-and-true healthy specimens.  I put far too much care into these guys to do much diet experimenting.  Subra just finished his moth and is washing up.  No stomach ache with a good old-fashioned bland-colored moth.


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## Kermit (Jul 14, 2016)

Right... such a controversial subject... spoke with a cricket breeder at a recent reptile show and he explained that the issues originate from poor cricket management... generally from lack of heat, poor diet  and lack of food that causes cannibalism of dead crickets in the enclosure. Bottom line is that PM's consume or develop BAD bacteria in their gut! Some healthy individuals vomit and will survive; if tainted poor diet continues PM will suffer or die! 

Solution: buy from reputable cricket breeder and quarantine feeders for period of time while administrating "clean"  and nutritious diet before feeding.

Power to the Mantis!!!

Kermit


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## Kermit (Jul 14, 2016)

Oh and beware of off color or faded colored butterflies... appearing at end of life cycle... assumed bad mojo in their gut as well... lost a heathy T. Eligan female following a WC off-color feeding!


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## Mantidaddicted (Jul 14, 2016)

Digger said:


> I'm nervous about caterpillars too!  Not sure about budworms.  There are about 50 species (I've had my fill of trouble with them attacking petunias).  I think common species here in the northeast that attack conifers are (probably) ok to try on your mantis.  I'd much prefer waiting until they change into their Tortricidae family of moths --- then feed those to Sweet Pea like mad (ohhhh how weez luuuuvs our moffs --- Subra [male T. sigiana] is munching on one as I type this.
> 
> Members on this board undoubtedly have horror stories about some caterpillars - and love stories regarding others.  I do try to mix in wild prey during these summer months, but, as listed above, I definitely stay with those tried-and-true healthy specimens.  I put far too much care into these guys to do much diet experimenting.  Subra just finished his moth and is washing up.  No stomach ache with a good old-fashioned bland-colored moth.


thanks for all the info! I just ordered another culture since mine finally died. It's a lot easier than looking for bugs to feed her. and I would rather not risk sweet peas health.


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## Mantidaddicted (Jul 15, 2016)

She molted today! So that's good ! L4 now!


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