# Idolomantis diabolica



## Rick (Jul 24, 2010)

So.........after having these guys since L1 and going through six molts problem free, the problems are now coming at me full speed. Female molted to L7. Molt went fine except one of her legs dried with a curve in it. Doens't look like it will be a problem, but she isn't using the leg.

Last night the other female molted to L7. Everything looks fine physically except that the mantis is staying on the bottom of the enclosure only climbing up an inch or so. It appears the mantis cannot grip. I wonder if they need larger mesh/screen?


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## pohchunyee (Jul 24, 2010)

Good luck Rick.... I have the same problem last time. My experience is that they need really tall enclosure with tons of small branches. Apparently they hook their legs onto branches and sometimes have trouble holding on screen. If the idolomantis is on the floor all the time... it is a goner! The legs are too weak to hold them up. It might be due to the fact that they fell while molting (even when they fully came out of their old skin), they need at least to hang themselves upside down for a few hours to strengthen themselves. Anyway good luck, I would suggest to start contacting those who have Idolomantis at L7/L8 just in case.


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## tier (Jul 24, 2010)

Hi

Yes, the typical problem: The last moults. I had 100% missmoults to adult in my first try with _Idolomantis_ some years ago. The few specimens who not fell down and broke all legs had at least messed-up, curly wings. And I know not only Pohchunyee, Kruszakus or me had this enorm problems with the adult moultings although pets were doing fine until the last moults.

Last year, in my second try, almost 100% of the adult moultings were successfull, and this time now, again all is going fine, the first females are mated already.

What I did on my first try in contrast to the last successfull years was:

Some years ago I kept them in net cages or at least in glass cages with the front completely out of mesh. This caused two problems: The temperature and humidity was not high enough or was not staying high enough trough the day. When they moult to adults, it is rainy season in the areas of Kenia and Tanzania were they are coming from. This means, when its time for adult moults, they should be kept as a rainforrest species: I keep them in ordinary glass terrariums now, with one small metal screen in the lower front and another samll metal screen in the middle of the top. So I can make sure the temperature daytime is high and the humidity is very high 24hours. I want to compare it with a tropical hall like they have them in some zoos, for example for alligators: When you enter such a tropical hall in a zoo, you feel like you walk against a wall, caused by the high humidity and temperature. If you wear glasses, they will directly fog up and get steamed. This is the same now in my _Idomonatis_ enclosures: When I open them for dayly feeding, my face can realize the high humidity and temperature, I can feel it on my skin. This is how it should be I guess.

While _Gongylus_ needs big net-areas for air circulation and no humidity, for _Idolomantis_ the ventilation has to be good, too, but the humidity must be present all time, the air has to be humid all time (for the last moults!).

The second thing I improved compared to my first try is the huge amount of fine branches. I thought such a big species needs a lot of space for moulting, but I now can say: The more branches and twig you offer, the better they do! They are very smart in finding the right area to moult if you offer endless thin branched twigs (1-5mm diameter). The more twigs you offer, the more potential good areas they have, and they will find a good area for final moulting. And they won't have problems with enlargeing their wings. So, don't be afraid of too much branches, make sure your enclosure is really full with thin branched twigs. Its like you cannot put enough of them in the enclosure! They have to be very branched in all directions to make sure the pet can move its body in the right position right after moulting for enlargeing the wings.

And the last thing is, again like phochunyee already pointed out: Make sure that you American keepers of _Idolomantis_ stay in good contact and exchange your animals for a maximum offspring later on. You know the adult males do not last very long, maybe maximum 4 month beeing good boys for breeding. And the females need around 4 more weeks for the extra moult and another 4 weeks to become ready for mating. So males are in general useless for breeding with a female which hatched out at the same time the males hatched or even out of the same ooth. It would be sad if now, after Yen Saw again put a lot of them out into the marked in USA, all would vanish again. So I recommend you to collect all the owners of _I. diabolica_ in USA now and work out some kind of cooperation.

Ah yah, before I forget: Of course the right diet with flies fed on honey and some other wild insects like bees, Syrphidae etc. hast to be offered all the lifetime to make sure the pets are in a strong condition for the last moult which need a lot of power.

Rick, I wish you the best luck and cross my finger for you! Hope you will be successfull!

regards from Indonesia,

tier


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## Ghostie (Jul 24, 2010)

You guys are up too early!

This species is very crazy! Looks and care alike.

Good luck Rick! Hope it works out well for ya.


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## LauraMG (Jul 24, 2010)

Sorry to hear that Rick. They are a beautiful species. I hope they make it


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## Rick (Jul 24, 2010)

Adding all the branches seems to go against what I have learned about keeping mantids. I had them in there but have been slowly taking them out with each molt. I will add them back. Maybe this one will make it if I do that. This will probably be a failure this go around but I will try to keep them going.


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## myzticalboi (Jul 24, 2010)

I hope everything goes well. Good Luck.


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## Rick (Jul 24, 2010)

That was interesting. I packed the net cage full of small twigs. That mantis literally jumped off the floor and onto a twig. She turned around head down and started cleaning herself. Amazing!


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## Ghostie (Jul 24, 2010)

She knew what she wanted! haha

I thought about pursuing this species but perhaps I will own them vicariously through you now that they sound pretty hard!


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## massaman (Jul 24, 2010)

this is a species that is not for the novice or amatuer hobbyist as many will tell you as some will say you need lots of heat lamps and what not and thats why I would not raise just this species because of its level of care needed!


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## Rick (Jul 24, 2010)

She still seems to be having issues hanging. I don't get it. A molt ago this mantis was fine. Nothing has changed. We will see what happens on the next molt.


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## Colorcham427 (Jul 27, 2010)

Rick said:


> She still seems to be having issues hanging. I don't get it. A molt ago this mantis was fine. Nothing has changed. We will see what happens on the next molt.


Isn't this species known to have generations of L7+ becoming weak and dying, some not even breeding...? What else has happened to other people raising this species to L7+ stages...?

Thanks for guiding me here Rick. I was told that honey would perk up a mantis, guess this is not true? Sugar water and honey are basically the same, at least that's what I was taught in health class... That honey is just plain sugar...

I have chameleon screen cages and tons of dead Dwarf Umbrella plants with lots and lots of very thin, yet strong skinny branches.


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## Rick (Jul 27, 2010)

Actually she seems to be doing ok. The sticks allow her to climb when before she couldn't.


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## eur0pein (Aug 5, 2010)

i want to get some


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## Rick (Aug 6, 2010)

Update: I added many small twigs as Pohchunyee suggested and they seem to be just fine now. The one who had problems is even hanging from the cage surface as if nothing was ever wrong.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 6, 2010)

I am very nervuouseellells see me chatter! thanks Tier for all your information!


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## tier (Aug 6, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> I am very nervuouseellells see me chatter! thanks Tier for all your information!


AAhh, come on. You know you are welcome, honey. But be aware Í am a newcomer breeding this species, I don't like to give recommendations on keeping a species which I haven't kept for more than some generations. I hope soon my second generation will hatch. So be carefull with my information. But be aware that this specis do not allow longer mistakes. They will do fine for some month if kept uncorrectly, but then suddenly they will not forgive any mistakes. And be aware that my information is only valid for IGM 25, imported from Tanzania some years ago, the only tribe which is bred for some years without bigger problems by "good" breeders. All the new, cheap imports like they are available again and agian may have other preferences, but nowbody knows their preferences because nobody bred them yet. Luckily, as far as I know, your Idolomatis in USA now from Yen are IGM 25, but I am not sure about it. But I guess so ;-) Have good luck with this species please!


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## Rick (Aug 23, 2010)

Dang! First female molted to adult last night and of course fell. Found her in a heap on the cage floor this morning. This was the good one too. This mantis has had zero problems up to this point. I have one more chance with the other female, but I am not holding my breath.

I had put in many tiny branches but it looks like she still found a spot on the cage and molted from there. Or maybe she tried to molt too low. The shed skin was on the floor too, so she probably fell. While they look cool, these are far too much trouble. It isn't that they are hard to raise, it's that they just can't grip anything well. :angry:


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 23, 2010)

Yea, Tier , thanks, so hard, I guess Rick we are gonna have to become bats to hang upside down with them and hold their hands! All three males are adult, one perfect, other two with puffy wings, tearing hair out as I type..... :blink:


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## Rick (Aug 23, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> Yea, Tier , thanks, so hard, I guess Rick we are gonna have to become bats to hang upside down with them and hold their hands! All three males are adult, one perfect, other two with puffy wings, tearing hair out as I type..... :blink:


How are you keeping them? You got three to adult that sounds pretty good. One of my males made it to adult with no issues.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 23, 2010)

Did I put the pic of the little aquariums on here? they are just perfect size for one idolo and has a light for heat, gets about 85 to 90F or better during the day, sometimes more and I then turn light off, cause it is really hot here. I don't want then getting too hot, so I worry about that, not that they can't take it, but because I do not want them getting something they havent had before. Also have moss in there and only spray them once a day for their drink. Right now the boys get no extra heat and a fly or so every other day. There needs to be someone out there that has a female cause my boys are R e A d Y! if I did not put pic on remind me and I show it.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 23, 2010)

Wheres Yen ? We need help YEN!


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## ismart (Aug 23, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> Wheres Yen ? We need help YEN!


Don't get me wrong! Advice from yen is always top notch, and appreciated, but you seem to be doing quite well on your own.  Don't short change yourself!  

I finally have one adult male myself. This guy actually did not fall during molting. He came out perfect. 3 out of my 4 females are about to molt to adulthood any day now. They have stopped feeding. Now I'm getting nervous!


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 24, 2010)

Oh! take a cold shower, no wrong symptomes, ummm, chew on a bullit, yea that's it a bullet!


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## ismart (Aug 24, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> Oh! take a cold shower, no wrong symptomes, ummm, chew on a bullit, yea that's it a bullet!


A cold shower should suffice! :lol:


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## Rick (Aug 24, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> Did I put the pic of the little aquariums on here? they are just perfect size for one idolo and has a light for heat, gets about 85 to 90F or better during the day, sometimes more and I then turn light off, cause it is really hot here. I don't want then getting too hot, so I worry about that, not that they can't take it, but because I do not want them getting something they havent had before. Also have moss in there and only spray them once a day for their drink. Right now the boys get no extra heat and a fly or so every other day. There needs to be someone out there that has a female cause my boys are R e A d Y! if I did not put pic on remind me and I show it.


More curious about what you have in the cage for them to hang from.


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## ismart (Aug 27, 2010)

Finally! I have my first adult female!  She is perfect!  I cant wait to breed these guys. Now i just hope her sisters will follow suite?


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## Rick (Aug 27, 2010)

ismart said:


> Finally! I have my first adult female!  She is perfect!  I cant wait to breed these guys. Now i just hope her sisters will follow suite?


I have one to go but I don't think she will do good. She should molt any day now and keeps staying really low in the cage. Was this your first female to molt?


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## ismart (Aug 27, 2010)

Rick said:


> I have one to go but I don't think she will do good. She should molt any day now and keeps staying really low in the cage. Was this your first female to molt?


She is the second female to molt to adulthood for me in the last week or so. The first female fell during her last molt, and was not savable. I cut her into pieces and fed her to various gravid multispina females. A very exspensive meal!

Back in 2008, when yen had them for sale. I picked up 10 of them. I did manage to get two males to adulthood, and one female. Unfortunately the female died three days later after reaching adulthood for no apparent reason? No one else at the time had any adult females for my boys to breed with. I kept them together. Poor guys were mad gay! :lol: They died two months later. Like you rick, i have a female that refuses to perch on the top of the cage. She clings to the side close to the floor. If she mismolts, i'm going to make diabolica cookies out of her for Bugfest! :lol:


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 27, 2010)

I just have fiberglass screen up there and some thin sticks glued horizontally from each side at the top, also thin sticks upright, but they stay on the screen molstly.

also congrats Paul! dont for get I have adult males!


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## LauraMG (Aug 27, 2010)

Yay! Congratulations! I really want to buy some of these, but they seem to end mostly in heart break


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## ismart (Aug 27, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> also congrats Paul! dont for get I have adult males!


Thanks! I have not forgotten!  If the others go well? I will be PMing you soon.  



Laura G said:


> Yay! Congratulations! I really want to buy some of these, but they seem to end mostly in heart break


Thanks! It does seem like alot of times, these guys do end in heart break, but it makes it even that more fulfilling when things go right.  The hardest part is still yet to come!


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## LauraMG (Aug 27, 2010)

ismart said:


> Thanks! It does seem like alot of times, these guys do end in heart break, but it makes it even that more fulfilling when things go right.  The hardest part is still yet to come!


Breeding?


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## ismart (Aug 27, 2010)

Laura G said:


> Breeding?


Yup! :2guns:


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## Rick (Aug 29, 2010)

Last female molted to adult. Found her in a heap on the cage floor this morning. :angry: As cool as they look this species is not fun at all to keep. I may try again but next time I think I will make a special cage just for them. I have heard that even the best among us have a 40% failure rate due to molting issues. I got one out of the four to adult. I would really like to see the natural habitat of this mantis because I can't believe they haven't went extinct.


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## Ghostie (Aug 29, 2010)

Precarious had some pretty good cage ideas for adults molting.. if we can get any there. :lol:


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## Rick (Aug 29, 2010)

Ghostie said:


> Precarious had some pretty good cage ideas for adults molting.. if we can get any there. :lol:


Getting them to adult is not an issue. THey were pretty easy up until that last molt. I lost all of them except one on the last molt.


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## ismart (Aug 30, 2010)

So sorry Rick!  My second female just molted to adulthood a few days ago. She actually molted on the top of the enclosure and looks perfect. She was hanging out on the bottom for like a week. I told her if she mismolted i would make cookies out of her, and bring them to Bugfest. It seemed to do the trick! :lol: Rick, let me know if you want her?


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2010)

ismart said:


> So sorry Rick!  My second female just molted to adulthood a few days ago. She actually molted on the top of the enclosure and looks perfect. She was hanging out on the bottom for like a week. I told her if she mismolted i would make cookies out of her, and bring them to Bugfest. It seemed to do the trick! :lol: Rick, let me know if you want her?


Obviously I did something wrong. What type of cage are you using?


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 30, 2010)

I hear ya Rick! Paul tell him he did fine, it is not our fault that these mantis don't like our environment! I am waiting on my girl to molt, and by gollie, I think she will be a cookie too! But I am gonna eat her if she messes up! What good are three boys with no girlie?


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## guapoalto049 (Aug 30, 2010)

My first Idolos should arrive shortly. Obviously since I haven't even tried them I may not know what I'm talking about, but it seems to me that a wider-knit screen is more effective as the mantids grow.

The mesh butterfly cages I own (and that many on here use) have a very fine netting. Perhaps window screen would be a better molting surface along with many thin twigs?

Since Idolos are very large Empusidae, could it be their tarsi get too big to properly grip the fine mesh of the butterfly cage?


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## ismart (Aug 31, 2010)

guapoalto049 said:


> My first Idolos should arrive shortly. Obviously since I haven't even tried them I may not know what I'm talking about, but it seems to me that a wider-knit screen is more effective as the mantids grow.
> 
> The mesh butterfly cages I own (and that many on here use) have a very fine netting. Perhaps window screen would be a better molting surface along with many thin twigs?
> 
> Since Idolos are very large Empusidae, could it be their tarsi get too big to properly grip the fine mesh of the butterfly cage?


Window screen, and or metal mesh is no good either. There tarsi can get easily caught and break off while struggleing to free themselves.

netting is not a good molting surface for them really at any stage either. Twigs and sticks work best as molting surfaces/perches. You also have to factor in weight. These guys can get quite heavy for there thin legs to surport them. Another reason why these guys tend to fall during there final molt is weakness. Could be from lack of nutrition? Just a thought of course. I have no hard evidence to prove this. Just speaken from what i have experienced myself. Hope some of this can help?


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## LauraMG (Aug 31, 2010)

It almost sounds like the best thing would be to get large strips of tree bark and glue them all over the top of their enclosures.


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## ismart (Aug 31, 2010)

Laura G said:


> It almost sounds like the best thing would be to get large strips of tree bark and glue them all over the top of their enclosures.


Sticks would be the better choice being they can wrap there tarsi around it. With bark there tarsi would be flat against it. No different from netting in my opinion.


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## Schloaty (Aug 31, 2010)

I have this theory - an armchair one at that (read: haven't actually raised this species yet....coming in the mail now!) that the best bet would be to use an enclosure with walls they CANNOT climb and a lid they CANNOT hang from . This would ensure that they use the sticks provided within the enclosure.

Or do you suppose they would stay stubbornly on the bottom, trying to climb the (glass, for example) walls?

I was thinking of setting up a glass aquarium with a fiberglass lid. I don't think they could climb either one. Inside, I would have some sticks, and possible some live, potted plants...or maybe some fake plastic ones.

Anyone think that's a recipe for disaster?


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## guapoalto049 (Aug 31, 2010)

Schloaty said:


> I have this theory - an armchair one at that (read: haven't actually raised this species yet....coming in the mail now!) that the best bet would be to use an enclosure with walls they CANNOT climb and a lid they CANNOT hang from . This would ensure that they use the sticks provided within the enclosure.
> 
> Or do you suppose they would stay stubbornly on the bottom, trying to climb the (glass, for example) walls?
> 
> ...


This may be a good way to encourage them to use sticks, never though about that. My Gongylus haven't had a single mismoult. Their cage is very thick with various dead stems and twigs, most very thin. I'll try the same method with the Idolos and report back periodically.


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## ismart (Aug 31, 2010)

Schloaty said:


> I have this theory - an armchair one at that (read: haven't actually raised this species yet....coming in the mail now!) that the best bet would be to use an enclosure with walls they CANNOT climb and a lid they CANNOT hang from . This would ensure that they use the sticks provided within the enclosure.
> 
> Or do you suppose they would stay stubbornly on the bottom, trying to climb the (glass, for example) walls?
> 
> ...


Not a bad idea, but if they should fall from there stick perch, then how would they get back up, if they cant climb the sides? Even if you have various sticks leading back up to the top, or even a house plant there is no guarantee they won't just hang on the sides of these sticks or a house plant, when getting ready to molt. I can see covering the whole net cage, or enclosure of choice, with sticks on the top to the point, where they have no choice but grasp them instead of the netting , or mesh top. I can see them trying to climb the glass for a long period of time. :lol: I don't think it's a recipe for disaster. Won't know for sure until you try it. Put it this way, if you see them hanging on the house plant all retarded, or sitting on the floor trying to climb the glass sides. Then you can kinda foresee the grim future! :lol:


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## Schloaty (Aug 31, 2010)

> but if they should fall from there stick perch, then how would they get back up,


Well, I had the idea of having lots of sticks in there, too....I've read that Idolo's need lots of sticks.

That would (theoretically) solve the problem, as it would present multiple points where they could climb back up.

I guess you're right, though. Just won't know til I try!


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## LauraMG (Aug 31, 2010)

ismart said:


> Sticks would be the better choice being they can wrap there tarsi around it. With bark there tarsi would be flat against it. No different from netting in my opinion.


Ah, I see. So they don't really have the capability at that stage to stick to things like other mantids do. I'm gathering information for the day that I get some of these! I do like the smooth surface idea too.


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## okstrat (Aug 31, 2010)

Laura G said:


> Ah, I see. So they don't really have the capability at that stage to stick to things like other mantids do. I'm gathering information for the day that I get some of these! I do like the smooth surface idea too.


I'm getting discouraged from even trying to own these guys at all... so far they sound like a nightmare.


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## Rick (Aug 31, 2010)

guapoalto049 said:


> This may be a good way to encourage them to use sticks, never though about that. My Gongylus haven't had a single mismoult. Their cage is very thick with various dead stems and twigs, most very thin. I'll try the same method with the Idolos and report back periodically.


This is way different from Gongy. I haven't had any mismolts with Gongy but lost three out of four Idolos to mismolts. I used the thin twigs for the last two and they still mismolted.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 31, 2010)

I am using the fiberglass screen and they are molting ok, the twigs, well I had to remove them in two cages this week, seems the males squeezed theirselves behind them and got stuck... what the......, these guys are causing a nice girl like me to swear:hammer:


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## guapoalto049 (Sep 1, 2010)

I received them today! Am I in over my head? Only time will tell! Either way I hope to at least provide a bit of insight for others.

If I fail maybe I'll take a vacation to Tanzania to study/correct my mistakes...


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 1, 2010)

This is like the pressure test on MASTER CHEF! My girl molted to sub today! she had not ate in almost two weeks, hand fed her and got very little in her, gave up on her last night, this mornign she molted fine! :lol: . Funny she hung onto the fiberglass screen instead of the sticks, so who knows, gonna need a toddy for this next molt!


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## LauraMG (Sep 1, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> Funny she hung onto the fiberglass screen instead of the sticks, so who knows, gonna need a toddy for this next molt!


Sounds like you need a fifth for these guys! :lol: :tt2:


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## ismart (Sep 8, 2010)

ARRRRGGGGHHHH! I found my adult male laying on the floor of his enclosure yesterday morning. He had been with an adult female for last two weeks. I did witness him mount her a few days ago, but there was no connection. Unreal! He was perfect!  I guess now he will make a perfect pinned specimen! &lt;_&lt; I just have no luck!


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## Mex_Ghost (Sep 8, 2010)

ismart said:


> ARRRRGGGGHHHH! I found my adult male laying on the floor of his enclosure yesterday morning. He had been with an adult female for last two weeks. I did witness him mount her a few days ago, but there was no connection. Unreal! He was perfect!  I guess now he will make a perfect pinned specimen! &lt;_&lt; I just have no luck!


Sorry to hear that, I know how does it feel, after a lot of work and care I had a couple of Adult Idolomantis, but because of my work I had to go to the south of Mexico for 4 weeks, in that time a friend of mine took care of the Idolos, after I arrived (they were about a month a half adults approximately), and I tried to mate them, I put them together at night and left them along, I was watching them, and the male was very active like never before, I was sure they should mate, but after I woke up, the male was laying on the floor and the female hanging from the top of the enclosure with her "raptor arms", and a few seconds later I saw her fell down (even she was near to one wall of the enclosure).

saludos


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 8, 2010)

Paul, I have males.


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## ismart (Sep 9, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> Paul, I have males.


Good!  I will ship her out to you this coming week.


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## guapoalto049 (Sep 9, 2010)

ismart said:


> ARRRRGGGGHHHH! I found my adult male laying on the floor of his enclosure yesterday morning. He had been with an adult female for last two weeks. I did witness him mount her a few days ago, but there was no connection. Unreal! He was perfect!  I guess now he will make a perfect pinned specimen! &lt;_&lt; I just have no luck!


What were the environmental conditions in the enclosure? Pics would be great!


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## Schloaty (Sep 15, 2010)

Let's try posting this again - last time that silly forum error messed me all up.

I had another (probubly ill-concieved) idea for an idolo cage....

Why not a wooden bird cage?

The whole thing is MADE of sticks (rungs) after all, so gripping wouldn't be a problem. I think it would have to be wood, unless they have some other material that isn't too slippery.

Only problem would be humidity, but I will be keeping mine in a tropical plant grow chamber most likely, so I don't think that will present a problem. Besides, it will certainly be easy to mist them.


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## Rick (Sep 15, 2010)

Schloaty said:


> Let's try posting this again - last time that silly forum error messed me all up.
> 
> I had another (probubly ill-concieved) idea for an idolo cage....
> 
> ...


Probably not a bad idea. They seem just fine as far as gripping is concerned as long as they are not molting.


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## Schloaty (Sep 15, 2010)

Rick said:


> Probably not a bad idea. They seem just fine as far as gripping is concerned as long as they are not molting.


You're going to HATE me for this one....

But what we seem to be getting burned by molting larvae.....

BA-DUMP PISH!


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 16, 2010)

ismart said:


> Good!  I will ship her out to you this coming week.


Paul, one male down , he died today, 2 left, is she coming?


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## ismart (Sep 16, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> Paul, one male down , he died today, 2 left, is she coming?


I'm sorry, i had not gotten a chance to ship her out this week. I promise i will ship her this coming week. PM me your address again. I just had another female molt to adulthood a few days ago,


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## paddythemic (Sep 22, 2010)

How about something like this? (chinese elm bonsai)

* STICKS jutting out in every possible direction.

* Humidifier nearby to control HUMIDITY.

* non-blocked AIR circulation.


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## LauraMG (Sep 22, 2010)

paddythemic said:


> View attachment 1425
> 
> 
> How about something like this? (chinese elm bonsai)
> ...


That's a great idea! I'd say try it


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 23, 2010)

I had to remove most me sticks. They kept finding their was behind them, even the large ones, so ? :angry:


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