# Problems with Cricket Jumping Legs?



## Sarah K (Apr 14, 2016)

Hey guys,

I do not feed crickets to my mantises, but I do keep some dart frogs and tree frogs to which I feed crickets. I have noticed a problem with my feeder crickets on various occasions where their long jumping legs don't seem to work. It seems like they are just crawling around with the rest of their legs and sort of dragging their jumping legs, rather then using them to jump! It has been really bothering me that I cannot figure out why this is happening! Has anyone else ever experienced anything like this, or figured out what causes it?

I buy my crickets from Ghann's cricket farm, so they are Banded Crickets
(Gryllodes sigillatus).


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## Introvertebrate (Apr 14, 2016)

Gryllodes sigillatus is immune to the paralysis cricket virus, so I don't know what to think.


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## CosbyArt (Apr 14, 2016)

At the moment I have house crickets (Acheta domesticus) and never had a issue with them, or the Banded Crickets (Gryllodes sigillatus) that was used by my pet stores occasionally since the cricket disease.

Not sure what could be causing your problem, as your species are very resistant to the cricket virus; however, are not immune occurring to scientific articles (although many assume they are immune as it is rare). Are your crickets smaller than normal, die quickly, do their eggs hatch, etc? I'm curious if you have a fluke strain that could be infected or have some other issue. Although often infected crickets will be on their backs (messed up acting), become paralyzed and die from the virus.

As mentioned by Introvertebrate there is a cricket virus that had a big outbreak here in the US that bankrupted some cricket farms, and others managed to recover by switching to the resistant Gryllodes sigillatus species. The virus is called Cricket Paralysis Virus or simply C.P.V., and is scientifically named Acheta domesticus densovirus (AdDNV).

Here is more information about it from ScienceDirect, NCBI, and a cricket breeding site.


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## Krissim Klaw (Apr 15, 2016)

Can you get some video? I would be curious to see what they look like as far as dragging their back legs. If you poke one of the ones dragging its legs will it switch from crawling to jumping?


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## Sarah K (Apr 15, 2016)

Yeah, I read about that virus, and that is why I have only used banded crickets ever since. In fact, when that disease first broke out in 2009, I had been getting house crickets from the pet stores to feed my chameleon, and I remember wondering why every time I would get them, it would take only a matter of days until all of them were on their backs and dying or dead! (After my last chameleon died, I took a long hiatus from any of the small animal hobbies I have been involved with in the past, and didn't start back again until 2015.) Eitherway, I have been through that, and this is definitely not as severe. It always seems to affect only some of the crickets, not all of them (even though they are all in the same cage), and only a few die still. It certainly doesn't kill an entire colony, which is why I thought maybe it is something other than AdDNV. I have also raised plenty of them (all kept together) from pinhead to adult, and bred them still. Eggs still seem to hatch fine.



Krissim Klaw said:


> Can you get some video? I would be curious to see what they look like as far as dragging their back legs. If you poke one of the ones dragging its legs will it switch from crawling to jumping?


I will try to get a video this weekend, and post here.


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## CosbyArt (Apr 15, 2016)

Sarah K said:


> Yeah, I read about that virus, and that is why I have only used banded crickets ever since. In fact, when that disease first broke out in 2009, I had been getting house crickets from the pet stores to feed my chameleon, and I remember wondering why every time I would get them, it would take only a matter of days until all of them were on their backs and dying or dead! (After my last chameleon died, I took a long hiatus from any of the small animal hobbies I have been involved with in the past, and didn't start back again until 2015.) Eitherway, I have been through that, and this is definitely not as severe. It always seems to affect only some of the crickets, not all of them (even though they are all in the same cage), and only a few die still. It certainly doesn't kill an entire colony, which is why I thought maybe it is something other than AdDNV. I have also raised plenty of them (all kept together) from pinhead to adult, and bred them still. Eggs still seem to hatch fine.
> 
> I will try to get a video this weekend, and post here.


Sorry to hear you have firsthand experience with the disease AdDNV; however, it seems to work in your favor as you are certain that is not the culprit. More searching I did for your issue only turns up the Acheta domesticus species problem online - no matter what keywords were excluded or tried. Hopefully a video of your crickets can help someone figure out the issue you do have.

In the meantime perhaps starting a new cricket tank with a new supply of crickets from another supplier, while letting your other tank dwindle down and end, would be a good option to stop the problem. Of course if the problem is spreadable, specifically airborne transmission, the new crickets may develop the problem as well though.


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## mantisman 230 (Apr 16, 2016)

one would keep any new ones in another room entirely to ensure nothing goes wrong. And sterilize the old container with boiling water if possible.


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## CosbyArt (Apr 16, 2016)

mantisman 230 said:


> one would keep any new ones in another room entirely to ensure nothing goes wrong. And sterilize the old container with boiling water if possible.


Indeed, good points.


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## mantisman 230 (Apr 16, 2016)




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## Sarah K (Apr 16, 2016)

Hey guys, I finally got the video for you!

View attachment Banded cricket jake leg.mp4


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## Krissim Klaw (Apr 17, 2016)

Sarah K said:


> Hey guys, I finally got the video for you!
> 
> View attachment 7401


They do seem a little off. Crickets do a lot of crawling but usually if you really harass them enough they will kick into gear to escape. I noticed from your video it also appears to be happening to crickets in various stages of growth. What is the cage setup and diet like?


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## Sarah K (Apr 18, 2016)

Krissim Klaw said:


> They do seem a little off. Crickets do a lot of crawling but usually if you really harass them enough they will kick into gear to escape. I noticed from your video it also appears to be happening to crickets in various stages of growth. What is the cage setup and diet like?


Hey Krissim Klaw,

My mantises are in a  sterilite container, and eat only Nature's Promise Romain lettuce, and Repashy bug burger.


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## Introvertebrate (Apr 18, 2016)

Were they like that straight from Ghann's, or did it occur after they lived under your care for a while?


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## Sarah K (Apr 18, 2016)

I did not notice it immediately.


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## Sarah K (Apr 18, 2016)

How big of a deal is it if crickets drink some regular sink water? I do rinse my lettuce off under the facet before placing in the cage.


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## mantisman 230 (Apr 18, 2016)

Depends on where you are, for my area, it is fine because we use groundwater. But it can vary depending on your location.


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## CosbyArt (Apr 18, 2016)

Sarah K said:


> How big of a deal is it if crickets drink some regular sink water? I do rinse my lettuce off under the facet before placing in the cage.


The tap water can wildly vary for sure. I give my crickets water in my inverted water bottles with tap water (but mine is ran through a house filter system and such). Besides that though water in my city is a bit hard, after all I do live in "the limestone capital of the world" lol. In the nearby city, Bloomington, the water seems to vary depending where you live in town. Of course that may have more to do with the house plumbing leaching into the water than actual variations.  

All in all though the water should be fine. If you think it could be the cause though pick-up some "spring" water at a store in gallon jugs (it can typically be bought for about $0.75 per gallon).


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## Introvertebrate (Apr 19, 2016)

Sarah K said:


> How big of a deal is it if crickets drink some regular sink water? I do rinse my lettuce off under the facet before placing in the cage.


Unless you live in Flint Michigan, I wouldn't worry about water quality.  Ghann's is a pretty reputable breeder.  Dirty Jobs did an episode on them.  At the time, they were still breeding Acheta domesticus.

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/dirty-jobs/videos/cricket-farmer/


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## Sarah K (Apr 19, 2016)

Thanks guys.....just trying to think of any possible causes for my weird problem.   I am going to take a few of the jake leg crickets out separately, so I can monitor them more closely. Maybe I will do some experiments with care on them. I will let you know if I figure out anything worthwhile.


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## avn (Apr 23, 2016)

Maybe try to get a batch of crickets from another source, and keep them seperately but with identical handling and see if they develop the same problem. 

That might help you isolate the problem to either "something you are doing" or "something the provider is doing"


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## Krissim Klaw (Apr 26, 2016)

Sarah K said:


> Thanks guys.....just trying to think of any possible causes for my weird problem.   I am going to take a few of the jake leg crickets out separately, so I can monitor them more closely. Maybe I will do some experiments with care on them. I will let you know if I figure out anything worthwhile.


Have the ones with the leg problems you moved to a separate enclosure gotten any worse or better? The one thought that popped into my mind since there were no adults in your video is it might be possible the ones you see looking off are just getting close to shedding. Insects can get very stiff and awkward in their movements the night or two before a shedding. If you separated some this theory will be pretty easy to test.


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## Sarah K (Apr 26, 2016)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Have the ones with the leg problems you moved to a separate enclosure gotten any worse or better? The one thought that popped into my mind since there were no adults in your video is it might be possible the ones you see looking off are just getting close to shedding. Insects can get very stiff and awkward in their movements the night or two before a shedding. If you separated some this theory will be pretty easy to test.


Unfortunately every cricket I have separated has died within a few days. I have treated, feed, etc., the isolated crickets the same thing as the others.


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## Ranitomeya (Apr 26, 2016)

Banded crickets are only resistant, not immune to the virus. Acheta domestica is very susceptible, so you'll see entire colonies die off. With banded crickets, you'll have just a few die off at a time after exhibiting symptoms. It's quite possible for organisms to be infected with an illness and exhibit no symptoms until something like stress causes them to unable to cope with living with the disease.


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## Sarah K (Apr 26, 2016)

Ranitomeya said:


> Banded crickets are only resistant, not immune to the virus. Acheta domestica is very susceptible, so you'll see entire colonies die off. With banded crickets, you'll have just a few die off at a time after exhibiting symptoms. It's quite possible for organisms to be infected with an illness and exhibit no symptoms until something like stress causes them to unable to cope with living with the disease.


Seriously? I cannot believe this disease is still haunting me 6 years later! But then again, after reading this article and the reference to Top Hat, I guess it unfortunately makes sense, since they "attempted to fight the virus with no success."

http://cricket-breeding.com/cricket-paralysis-virus/

Meaning, if a facility has switched to banded crickets _because_ they had this disease in their facility and couldn't get rid of it, and now they have banded crickets living in the same facility, I guess the banded crickets could still be catching the same exact virus from living in the same facility.


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## Introvertebrate (May 1, 2016)

Sarah K said:


> Seriously? I cannot believe this disease is still haunting me 6 years later! But then again, after reading this article and the reference to Top Hat, I guess it unfortunately makes sense, since they "attempted to fight the virus with no success."
> 
> http://cricket-breeding.com/cricket-paralysis-virus/
> 
> Meaning, if a facility has switched to banded crickets _because_ they had this disease in their facility and couldn't get rid of it, and now they have banded crickets living in the same facility, I guess the banded crickets could still be catching the same exact virus from living in the same facility.


Interesting article.  I like where it says, "Pet owners and pet shop owners may want to learn to raise their own crickets.  This way, nobody has to panic if a major supplier is suddenly out of crickets."  Yeah, that'll be the day.  I've heard more anti-cricket whining on message boards.  "Its too much work, wah wah wah."


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## avn (May 1, 2016)

Sarah why don't you give crickets to mantises? Are they not a good food? 

Whats a good alternative


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## Sarah K (May 2, 2016)

avn said:


> Sarah why don't you give crickets to mantises? Are they not a good food?
> 
> Whats a good alternative


Plenty of people seem to think it is fine to feed mantises crickets, but I guess it is possible that they _can_ carry bacteria/viral infections that _can_ have negative effects on mantises, if cricket cages are not kept very clean, etc. One of those viruses are AdDNV, as we have been discussing in this very topic! Like I said, plenty of people feed their mantises crickets and they are fine! I just tend to be extremely cautious about certain things (sometimes to a fault  ).


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## Krissim Klaw (May 3, 2016)

I didn't learn about the virus being a big problem until way after because I always had my own stock. I would probably email the company and see if they have something to say about the issues you are experiencing.

There is always the option of roaches to avoid the issue altogether.


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## Sarah K (May 3, 2016)

Introvertebrate said:


> Interesting article.  I like where it says, "Pet owners and pet shop owners may want to learn to raise their own crickets.  This way, nobody has to panic if a major supplier is suddenly out of crickets."  Yeah, that'll be the day.  I've heard more anti-cricket whining on message boards.  "Its too much work, wah wah wah."


I do breed my own, but still sometimes run out mostly because I am not diligent enough.    With so many other mouths to feed and cages to clean, sometimes it is the crickets where I slack, because they are a lot of work!


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## Ranitomeya (May 3, 2016)

Crickets often are not prolific enough if you have enough pets to feed. Many cricket species are seasonal and will halt development until they experience cues that tell them it's almost breeding season. Acheta domestica is one of the many tropical species where their breeding seasons are nearly year-round, but that doesn't mean they won't slow down significantly in development if conditions are not just right. In addition, females usually do not live long enough to produce more than one batch of offspring.

In order to maintain a continuous supply, you will have to have crickets at every stage of development with extras, otherwise you'll have periods of time where you have no adults to continue the colony while you're feeding them off. This is especially difficult since crickets of different instars can tend cannibalize each other more frequently than crickets of the same instar. They'll also dig up eggs laid by females to eat as well. So not only will you need crickets of every stage of development, you will need separate containers for each--not an easy thing to maintain and definitely not something most people have the room for.

Crickets, unlike popular feeder roaches, are not truly communal in nature and are infrequently found in large numbers together--this means they are less tolerant of stress caused by overstocking and that can lead to them being more susceptible to disease. If you want to maintain them in large numbers, you need to have the time and resources to provide and maintain an extremely clean environment. Their relatively solitary nature means they are less likely to have encountered diseases prevalent in situations of overpopulation during their natural history and you can quickly wipe out entire colonies with diseases like AdDNV since their immune systems would never have had to adapt to diseases that are transmitted through frequent and continuous contact with each other, the dead, and their feces.


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## Introvertebrate (May 8, 2016)

Sarah K said:


> I do breed my own, but still sometimes run out mostly because I am not diligent enough.    With so many other mouths to feed and cages to clean, sometimes it is the crickets where I slack, because they are a lot of work!


No harm in buying them.  That's what keeps the cricket farms in business.


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