# Enclosure Size



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 26, 2018)

When it comes to calculating the minimum enclosure size, it is based to give enough room for molting, correct? I was planning on keeping a Rainforest mantis in a 8x8x12 terrarium. Once it has substrate this will cut it down to less than 12 high. I was told I should have taller because they can grow  up to 4" long. So I bought the next size up which was much bigger at 18" high. But then I started thinking, adults don't molt, so a 4" at adult would not require molting room, therefore wouldn't the 8x8x12 be large enough to house an adult? I'm just thinking shouldn't minimum final enclosure size be calculated at subadult? Maybe I'm looking at it all wrong. I know the more room the better, as long as they can find food. I'm just looking at the 'minimum' enclosure size for adults, since I have extra 8x8x12 terrariums, but have been avoiding getting more giant species because I thought they would not be large enough to house adults.


----------



## Bathory (Jan 26, 2018)

My H. majuscula is in a 12x12x12 exo terra and it housed my Rhombodera as well with no issues. Both of them molted to adult in 8x8x16 terrariums but I wanted to give them a bit more room to move around because they really just prefer to hang from the top so all that height wasn't really crucial for them after their final molts. They could probably have stayed in the 8x8x16 but I wanted to give them a bit more "floor space" (or ceiling space I guess), but I definitely think an adult could go into an 8x8x12! The great thing about adults is that you can decorate their enclosures a bit more freely since they won't molt, so for that reason alone I'd use the larger size but I don't think the mantis cares


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 26, 2018)

Bathory said:


> My H. majuscula is in a 12x12x12 exo terra and it housed my Rhombodera as well with no issues. Both of them molted to adult in 8x8x16 terrariums but I wanted to give them a bit more room to move around because they really just prefer to hang from the top so all that height wasn't really crucial for them after their final molts. They could probably have stayed in the 8x8x16 but I wanted to give them a bit more "floor space" (or ceiling space I guess), but I definitely think an adult could go into an 8x8x12! The great thing about adults is that you can decorate their enclosures a bit more freely since they won't molt, so for that reason alone I'd use the larger size but I don't think the mantis cares


Awesome! I do have two 12x12x18s to house my largest species as adults, just so (like you said) there is more space to move and decorate, but I''m happy that the 8x8x12s are big enough for me go get more than 2 of the larger species if I wish, without having to buy more large terrariums. Thanks!


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 26, 2018)

DefyTheNorms said:


> When it comes to calculating the minimum enclosure size, it is based to give enough room for molting, correct? I was planning on keeping a Rainforest mantis in a 8x8x12 terrarium. Once it has substrate this will cut it down to less than 12 high. I was told I should have taller because they can grow  up to 4" long. So I bought the next size up which was much bigger at 18" high.


It seems you hit the important points yourself, just talking out loud about it.  

Yes, the minimum sizes is to ensure proper molting. That is the adult mantid length size - the habitat needs to be at least twice the mantid length for habitat width and length, and three times that for the height.

Indeed the current instar has a bearing on habitat size too. For example a L2 nymph is often lost in such a large tank when it comes feeding time. In that aspect many keepers will have multiple habitat sizes for nymphs as they grow to ensure they have molting room, but still easily find their prey. While mantids in the wild are only limited by the Earth, they have an entire ecosystem and can easily move to where their is prey (but are not options in a habitat).

For my Carolina nymphs (Stagmomantis carolina) I start them off in 9oz cups, move them in 32oz deli cups, and lastly tall 1quart containers.

If you do use smaller habitats and switch them as needed, ensure that the habitat fits them for at least one molt. Using the mantids current size the habitat should be at least three times their length for height, but I error on the side of caution and use four times their current length.



DefyTheNorms said:


> I'm just thinking shouldn't minimum final enclosure size be calculated at subadult?


If you are putting in a mantid that is not an adult yet the answer is no - if it is an adult see below response.

The subadult is a stage that needs the most molting room as it will be molting to a large adult. Besides molting from the exuviae (shed exoskeleton) and sitting on it and stretching to dry, they also will uncurl their wings seemingly inflating them. I like to give my mantids extra room especially at this final molt to ensure they do not have deformed wings or other common issues.



DefyTheNorms said:


> But then I started thinking, adults don't molt, so a 4" at adult would not require molting room, therefore wouldn't the 8x8x12 be large enough to house an adult?


Adults with wings of course no longer molt, and can be housed in smaller habitats. I've heard keepers sometimes use a tank size that is twice the mantids length for all measurements. Personally when possible I give my adults the opposite, massive amounts of room. Such as my 2.5" Carolina female I put into a 32" x 12" x 13" habitat I made that filled a entire shelf.

My adults that were housed in large habitats were more active exploring their tanks, seemed more content (no longer pacing the same few inches, or never moving), able to hunt their prey over longer distances (and is a show from active mantid hunters), were typically more prolific breeders (easier to mate, more and bigger ooths, etc), and picky females had much more areas to lay their ooths.

If space is a premium, keep males in smaller tanks and females in larger ones for the reasons listed. Also one trick that helps keep size down is to have a large tank that is normally stored away, but used for breeding and/or laying ooths.


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 26, 2018)

@CosbyArt Thanks for clearing up some points! I will give them as large of a habitat as possible, I was just thinking that I needed to go out and buy larger exo terras lol Happy I don't! I've already noticed that Femme (my giant Malaysian shied) has been much more active since I moved her to the 8x8x12. She literally chases her prey! I'm pretty sure she's at subadult now, but she has more than enough room in the current terrarium. She just recently had her molt so I'll move her to her larger permanent 12x12x18 terrarium before her adult molt to ensure she has plenty of extra room   

I had some kind of weird luck and all 5 of my mantids are females lol


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 26, 2018)

DefyTheNorms said:


> @CosbyArt Thanks for clearing up some points! I will give them as large of a habitat as possible, I was just thinking that I needed to go out and buy larger exo terras lol Happy I don't! I've already noticed that Femme (my giant Malaysian shied) has been much more active since I moved her to the 8x8x12. She literally chases her prey! I'm pretty sure she's at subadult now, but she has more than enough room in the current terrarium. She just recently had her molt so I'll move her to her larger permanent 12x12x18 terrarium before her adult molt to ensure she has plenty of extra room
> 
> I had some kind of weird luck and all 5 of my mantids are females lol


Your welcome, glad it helped. Just buy a size that fits your budget and requirements and your set.  Nice, indeed the larger room gives a nice show at feeding time, and some mantids enjoy that more than anything.

Strangely enough ending up with all mantids being the same gender is normal. I've had that myself more times than not.


----------



## Serle (Jan 26, 2018)

CosbyArt said:


> Your welcome, glad it helped. Just buy a size that fits your budget and requirements and your set.  Nice, indeed the larger room gives a nice show at feeding time, and some mantids enjoy that more than anything.
> 
> Strangely enough ending up with all mantids being the same gender is normal. I've had that myself more times than not.


Possibly one or two exo's wouldn;t  be bad but if you would like 4 it get's xpencive . my local supplier is $68.50 for the 20 x 20 x 30 . do you have a supplier for less   . S


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 27, 2018)

Serle said:


> Possibly one or two exo's wouldn;t  be bad but if you would like 4 it get's xpencive . my local supplier is $68.50 for the 20 x 20 x 30 . do you have a supplier for less   . S


I don't personally have a supplier for them, but a quick search online found them from $34.39 and up for a Exo Terra 20 x 20 x 30cm (8" x 8" x 12"). Likely though shipping to you will be the problem in costs. If you want to see the better online deals, here are the direct links to PetCo, 4Fishies, and ArcataPets.

For me I would buy 10 gallon fish tanks during the $1 per gallon sale they have at PetCo and PetSmart regularly, and modify them as I did in my post here (3+ tanks for the price of one not counting the shipping)...


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 27, 2018)

I actually have 7 Exo Terras lol... Two 8x8x8s which I'm housing my budwing and soon my jeweled flower... Three 8x8x12s which I'm currently housing my Malaysian Shield, African Blue Flash, and Giant African... and two 12x12x18s which are currently empty. I'll be moving my Shield mantis to one of them soon. So I'll have an 8x8x12 and a 12x12x16 available for a couple new ones. I just didn't want to buy MORE because 1) they are expensive and 2) I didn't want to go beyond one shelf. lol

@CosbyArt Those are awesome! I wish I knew about the $1 per gallon sale thing before I went on an exo terra shopping spree :/


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 27, 2018)

DefyTheNorms said:


> I actually have 7 Exo Terras lol... Two 8x8x8s which I'm housing my budwing and soon my jeweled flower... Three 8x8x12s which I'm currently housing my Malaysian Shield, African Blue Flash, and Giant African... and two 12x12x18s which are currently empty. I'll be moving my Shield mantis to one of them soon. So I'll have an 8x8x12 and a 12x12x16 available for a couple new ones. I just didn't want to buy MORE because 1) they are expensive and 2) I didn't want to go beyond one shelf. lol
> 
> @CosbyArt Those are awesome! I wish I knew about the $1 per gallon sale thing before I went on an exo terra shopping spree :/


Still trying to keep to the one shelf, at least you are persistent.  

Thanks, well with the Exo Terra's they are nearly ready to go and don't require a lot of DIY to convert if any. Plus the Exo's also look more sleek and clean. The $1 per gallon sales are great, but can be hard to catch. Some stores don't advertise it besides their ad (which is currently $1 per gallon - what are the odds), and I guess in some cities don't do it all.


----------



## Serle (Jan 27, 2018)

My set up is like most out there , limited in space therefore I am trying to keep some conformity in houses .  Tenoderas &amp; Religiosa require individual apts. and exo's take up some room .  Thomas , I do like to looks of your setup ......  S


----------



## Serle (Jan 27, 2018)

When it comes to raising mantids that is just it , they consume plenty of room and I don't want to raise too many feeders .  Drosophila and Darkling Beetles /mealworms need limited space ,  just leaving the crickets and flying feeders to the people who like / want to breed them. I will wait on the exo terra's till more room is available ........  S


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 27, 2018)

CosbyArt said:


> Still trying to keep to the one shelf, at least you are persistent.


I'm trying! LOL... I already have my next round of species chosen. Just not sure how long I can hold out


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 27, 2018)

@Serle Nice set up!


----------



## Serle (Jan 27, 2018)

DefyTheNorms said:


> @Serle Nice set up!


Thnkz , this was after a clean-up day .......... S


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 28, 2018)

Serle said:


> My set up is like most out there , limited in space therefore I am trying to keep some conformity in houses .  Tenoderas &amp; Religiosa require individual apts. and exo's take up some room .  Thomas , I do like to looks of your setup ......  S


Thanks, it is just what seems more convenient and works for my needs. Empty breeding and communal tanks on the top shelf, followed by incubating ooths, then pets based on habitat size (and feeders needed), with storage and empty containers nearer the bottom.

I'll have to take some photos to show off what my bug room/area is now when I get it better setup. At the moment it is largely a mess from moving it all still and very few pets.

Your setup looks inviting, and easy to get them out for handling.  I see you have a few skeletal knickknacks, I do as well (a tiny bull skull and human skull that I can see at the moment).


----------



## Serle (Jan 28, 2018)

Not too morbid just keeping in touch with the other side .... It is always interesting to see other mantid enthusiasts set-ups ....  S


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 29, 2018)

Serle said:


> Not too morbid just keeping in touch with the other side .... It is always interesting to see other mantid enthusiasts set-ups ....  S


Nah I didn't think that at all, if anything it is a common item by various keepers (including pirate inspired fish tank accessories, skulls for tarantula burrows, etc) including me. Personally for something to be morbid it would have to be way out there - if you have seen my previous posts on my jobs and my original university major and related work you'd know why.  

Indeed there is always something that can be gleamed by viewing setups that can be emulated or improved on with personal setups. I know when I saw the Bugatorium thread by Rebecca (hibiscusmile) I was inspired. Sadly though it seems the majority of the photos in that thread are victim to the PhotoBucket change/blocking.

Speaking of setups I see in yours a digital red display (in the middle just right of center). Is that a thermostat relay, light timer, thermometer, hygrometer, or ? I'm curious to what gadgets you use.


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 29, 2018)

I have a couple of skulls for the mantid's enclosures, that I haven't put in yet. I just bought a set of tiny bones the other day as well lol. Thing is that I also have a few  things like that as part of my normal household decor


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 29, 2018)

DefyTheNorms said:


> I have a couple of skulls for the mantid's enclosures, that I haven't put in yet. I just bought a set of tiny bones the other day as well lol. Thing is that I also have a few  things like that as part of my normal household decor


Oh no not another one. :tt2: 

Nice, glad to see there is at least another, I figured there had to be. The tiny bones sound interesting, I just wonder if a mantid could grab them.

I got one that I can't get rid of, that count?  Nearly 21 years ago on my right bicep/upper arm. Picture looks rough as I held out my camera (2.5 pound DLSR) with my left arm (I'm right handed) and in low light a few minutes ago. However now that really is getting off topic.





Peter (BugsInCyberspace) sells all sorts of goodies from skeletal remains, headstones, troll bridge, tree people, skulls, glowing mushrooms, and others for habitats. I figure when I find some spending money I'll have to fill up some habitats.  Is that where you got your tiny bones from?


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 29, 2018)

CosbyArt said:


> Oh no not another one. :tt2:
> 
> Nice, glad to see there is at least another, I figured there had to be. The tiny bones sound interesting, I just wonder if a mantid could grab them.
> 
> ...


Haha, cool tat! Yup, that counts. Tattoos you can't get rid of.. know the feeling.

Now you got me thinking about the mantis picking them up! Yup, the bones I was referring to are from BugsInCyberspace. I bought some mushrooms too.  
I found them when I was looking for dried leaves for the terrariums.


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 29, 2018)

DefyTheNorms said:


> Haha, cool tat! Yup, that counts. Tattoos you can't get rid of.. know the feeling.
> 
> Now you got me thinking about the mantis picking them up! Yup, the bones I was referring to are from BugsInCyberspace. I bought some mushrooms too.


Thanks, my one and only still in nearly 21 years. I always find something else where the $100-$200 or so can be better spent, but I'd like to have many more.  

I'm good for that lately - if a mantid does at worse it may taste one if accidentally picked-up while grabbing prey; however, it shouldn't be interested in them normally due to no movement, and especially after a exploratory taste. Talking out loud more than raising an alarm, as the mantid might do a bit of redecorating.  

Okay nice glad you already found your way to the habitat decorations.


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 29, 2018)

CosbyArt said:


> if a mantid does at worse it may taste one if accidentally picked-up while grabbing prey; however, it shouldn't be interested in them normally due to no movement, and especially after a exploratory taste. Talking out loud more than raising an alarm, as the mantid might do a bit of redecorating.


If worse comes to worst I'll add them to little jar for display  :lol:


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 29, 2018)

DefyTheNorms said:


> If worse comes to worst I'll add them to little jar for display  :lol:


Always good to have a plan, but the mantid should treat it as nothing more than a loose stick. Some like to taste things quickly to be sure though, and it will not harm the mantid or the bone.


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 29, 2018)

@CosbyArt Do you think polymer clay decor would be mantid safe?


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 29, 2018)

DefyTheNorms said:


> @CosbyArt Do you think polymer clay decor would be mantid safe?


Yes I would use it and not worry as it is non-toxic and inert. Store bought factory items or homemade items (like Sculpey) all should be fine as well, see here. Especially once the polymer clay has been cured after manufacturing there should be no issue. It is based/created from PVC plastic (polymer polyvinyl chloride) that house water pipes are made of too. See the link here, or here, and a direct quote...



> Though polymer clay is certified "to contain no materials in sufficient quantities to be toxic or injurious to humans, including children, or to cause acute or chronic health problems, even if ingested," it is wise to keep it out of the reach of young children or pets who might try to eat it


That is from one site from a person that is worrying "what if", such as some ingredient unknown now but in 50 years may be found to cause a possible issue - among other various fears they have. They are also talking about the raw uncured polymer clay. More searching online is the same, people talking about the raw material, or worried about not being dishwasher safe after several uses due to the porous natural of non-glazed items.

As a mantid can not swallow it, the decor is not raw polymer clay, mantids are vastly different from our biology/physiology (and other mammals), and won't be around for many years for a issue to develop, or will extensively use/eat from/etc the decor item - I don't see any potential issue.


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 29, 2018)

CosbyArt said:


> Yes I would use it and not worry as it is non-toxic and inert. Store bought factory items or homemade items (like Sculpey) all should be fine as well, see here. Especially once the polymer clay has been cured after manufacturing there should be no issue. It is based/created from PVC plastic (polymer polyvinyl chloride) that house water pipes are made of too.


Yay, awesome! Now my decor options are endless!    I can make some little glow in the dark mushrooms that I wanted, but were out of stock. And maybe a tiny headstone. Haha, with a zombie mantis?  

https://starbrux.deviantart.com/art/Wallace-Z-OOAK-Zombie-Rat-545041972


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 29, 2018)

DefyTheNorms said:


> Yay awesome! Now my decor options are endless   I can even make some little glow in the dark mushrooms that I wanted but were out of stock. And maybe a tiny headstone similar to below - oh maybe with a zombie mantis LOL


Ha, I wondered how well those sold for Peter, guess he has trouble keeping them in stock.  

Yes if you sculpt items yourself you can do about anything. I'm curious to see what you will put together for your mantids.  

A few things though, I would recommend not doing anything with a point (like the stretched out rat fingers in the photos), anything that is very narrow and long, or other possible brittle/breakable things. That is, again like the rat fingers, they could puncture a mantid if it fell from their perch, or get broken off and due to the small size could possibly be swallowed by the mantid.


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 29, 2018)

CosbyArt said:


> A few things though, I would recommend not doing anything with a point (like the stretched out rat fingers in the photos), anything that is very narrow and long, or other possible brittle/breakable things. That is, again like the rat fingers, they could puncture a mantid if it fell from their perch, or get broken off and due to the small size could possibly be swallowed by the mantid.


Good call! I'll keep everything low, smooth, and rounded.


----------



## Serle (Jan 29, 2018)

There is plenty of skin art out there that needs to be covered up , just hang around   a Starbucks in summer and watch the picture show. I may have a few years on you , here's mine.


----------



## Serle (Jan 29, 2018)

The gauge is a thermometer / hydrometer.  The little skeleton is holding my mantid mismoult mechanics tools.


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 30, 2018)

Serle said:


> There is plenty of skin art out there that needs to be covered up , just hang around   a Starbucks in summer and watch the picture show. I may have a few years on you , here's mine.


There is plenty of that everywhere.  You are a few years older on the tattoo or in age? I'll turn 39 this year, and got mine when a month after turning 18. Nice seems you expand beyond knickknacks too.

I figure I have to get at least one more tattoo, something related to my pets and life anymore. Perhaps some mix of a mantid and arachnid - I'll add it in with my "bug" budget that my wife calls it.



Serle said:


> The gauge is a thermometer / hydrometer.  The little skeleton is holding my mantid mismoult mechanics tools.


Those are great, especially the digital ones for ease of use and to fine tune things. I know mine has aided me numerous times, and at least once to prevent a problem (excess heat/humidity). A great use for the skeleton, pulling double duty for the tools.


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 30, 2018)

CosbyArt said:


> I'll turn 39 this year, and got mine when a month after turning 18.


I feel old! LOL... I was a slow tattoo bloomer. 29 when I got my first, with 4 more followed. Last year I got a tiny rat paw print on my hand. I do plan to get another tat. I may need to incorporate a mantis somehow!


----------



## Serle (Jan 30, 2018)

You know you're old (mature) when we say things like '' I have tattoo's older than You''.  I like the rat paw ............. if you find something mantis that's what I'm into next ....... S


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 30, 2018)

Serle said:


> You know you're old (mature) when we say things like '' I have tattoo's older than You''.


 :lol:  True story!


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 31, 2018)

If you makes either of you feel better my niece and three nephews think I'm an old man.  When they come over they want to look at my "bugs" and play arcade games.

Seems "old age" is relative for sure, as I know when I was younger when my mom turned 30 that was a big deal for her. I'm nearly 40 myself, and she will be 57 though so it has been awhile.


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 31, 2018)

CosbyArt said:


> If you makes either of you feel better my niece and three nephews think I'm an old man.  When they come over they want to look at my "bugs" and play arcade games.
> 
> Seems "old age" is relative for sure, as I know when I was younger when my mom turned 30 that was a big deal for her. I'm nearly 40 myself, and she will be 57 though so it has been awhile.


I'm *cough* older than you, so I know what you mean! I thought 30 was ancient! Now, since I'm creeping toward it, I'm thinking 45 isn't that old after all


----------



## Serle (Jan 31, 2018)

I've been an Arborist most of my life and if it will make you feel any better 40 isn't old

IF YOU ARE A TREE ......... S


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 31, 2018)

Serle said:


> IF YOU ARE A TREE ......... S


 :lol:


----------



## CosbyArt (Jan 31, 2018)

DefyTheNorms said:


> I'm *cough* older than you, so I know what you mean! I thought 30 was ancient! Now, since I'm creeping toward it, I'm thinking 45 isn't that old after all


Nah not bad at all. It is funny how 30 is a big ordeal for many, but is rather quick to pass too.  



Serle said:


> I've been an Arborist most of my life and if it will make you feel any better 40 isn't old
> 
> IF YOU ARE A TREE ......... S


Good point, and a interesting concept of age related to a species life cycle (metabolism/speed/phase/whatever is the wording I can't find at the moment). Like a tree moving compared to a human, or the other end of the spectrum a humming bird. Lots of great science fiction done on that concept.

But age doesn't bother me nor the associated gray hair, balding, or whatever else (well short of health concerns). My cousin started going bald in his 20s and drove me crazy, he hates that I still have thick hair even if graying a bit now.


----------



## DefyTheNorms (Jan 31, 2018)

CosbyArt said:


> Nah not bad at all. It is funny how 30 is a big ordeal for many, but is rather quick to pass too.


40 was a bigger ordeal!.. If only I was 30 again. I'm afraid of 50


----------



## Serle (Jan 31, 2018)

40 was a ''blurrrr'' for me .


----------



## Serle (Jan 31, 2018)

But 30 was most xlnt ,, tattooz  and all.


----------

