# First ever orchid pairing



## Ben10101 (Mar 24, 2019)

The time has come, to finally attempt to pair my Orchid mantises~

So... we're off to a clumsy start, I placed the male on, and he's just dangling there still trying to understand the situation at first...





Eventually, he got a decent foothold, and he started drumming on her wings, which is a good sign!







He was desperately trying to connect with her, but she wasn't very receptive at first. "Come on my dude, you gotta get her in the mood first, keep drumming her your love song first and don't rush into it."

Eventually, after 2 hours, seems like we got the first promising connection, they stayed like this for ~10mins, is that sufficient? After they disconnected, the female started pulsating her abdomen, is that a good sign of success?




A second connection occurred another hours later, but this time it was quick, I'm not even sure did it last even a minute.




so, 5 hours later, seems like he's still on and off trying to connect~

This is my documentation so far, do the pictures seem promising? What should I do now? should I leave him in for another few days just to be sure? More experienced members please chime in and help me out here~


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 24, 2019)

I don't think that 11 mins of connection is sufficient. I hope you can have a successful pairing! I hope to see nymphs in the FS/W section soon!!! Keep us updated!

- MantisGirl13


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## Predatorhousepet (Mar 25, 2019)

As long as he's on her back leave him to it, he'll probably figure it out eventually. I've gotten nymphs from pairings where the male stayed connected for several days straight but also from pairings where the male did lots of short connections that only lasted 10 to 20 minutes each. He can go at it for many days without needing food or water, he'll be fine. But feed the female frequently to keep her full so when the male does dismount she's not desperate for a meal. Feed her every day, adult female orchids can eat a lot. 

Once he dismounts off her back remove him immediately for his safety, she will eat him if she sees him. Stuffing her with food during the mating helps but definitely doesn't guarantee she won't see him as a nice snack. When you do remove him put him back in his regular enclosure, offer him food/water and let him rest a couple days. Then you can try pairing them again, especially if the female is still displaying calling behavior showing she still wants to mate. You can mate them several times, if you have more than one male to pair her with that's even better. She'll lay her ooth about 2 weeks after the first successful mating. Wait until she starts displaying calling behavior again before starting the next round of mating. She'll still be fertile but additional pairings help to increase yield. 

Finally, has your male been drumming on her back every so often? If so that's good, it's part of the courting behavior, he's letting the female know he's back there ready to mate and that she should move her abdomen over so he can get better access.


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## Ben10101 (Mar 25, 2019)

What does the female’s calling behaviour look like?

edit: btw, thanks for all the info! It’s a lot of help!


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## MantisGirl13 (Mar 25, 2019)

@Ben10101 You will see her dip her abdomen and maybe flutter her wings a bit.

- MantisGirl13


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## Predatorhousepet (Mar 25, 2019)

One of my females would also do circular motions with her arms a little like she was doing a hula dance when she was calling but she was the only one out of several females to do that. When they call they are releasing pheromones from their abdomen to tell males they are ready to mate. They'll spread their wings slightly, move their abdomen around then flutter their wings a bit to disperse the pheromones. They're subtle movements but if you closely pay attention to her behavior you'll see when she starts to do it.


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## Ben10101 (Apr 3, 2019)

It’s been more than a week, he’s be constantly going at it, I’m sure out of all those attempts atleast 1 is successful.

I’ve noticed the last segment of the females abdomen is getting more yellow, could it be an indication of anything? 




Also if she is actually fertilised, what do I need to pay more attention to? Like maybe not over feeding? Temperatures? Humidity?


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## MantisGirl13 (Apr 3, 2019)

If she is fertile, don't overfeed. Temps should stay where they are, maybe increasing a little bit. RH can be increased a bit. 

Hope she lays a good one for you soon!

- MantisGirl13


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## Predatorhousepet (Apr 3, 2019)

Oh wow still? Have you tried offering him some food? If he hasn't eaten in all that time and keeps at it much longer, he may actually boink himself to death, lol. Males can go quite a while without food but there is a limit. Try offering him a fly with tweezers or feeding tongs. 

If he still hasn't dismounted in a day or two and won't take food from you you may need to help him out. When he's not connected to the female try holding a branch next to him where he can see it to give him something to climb onto. Wait patiently for a few minutes, holding very still, males are often skittish. If he climbs on fine but if not you can try again in a few hours. Be careful while transferring him, remember that he can fly and may try. I've had more than one male take off on me when moving them after breeding.

You don't really need to worry about overfeeding the female as long as you keep the amount offered within reason. Once fertile she will be making eggs and ooth material inside her and that takes a lot of energy to produce so she will need more food than she was eating as a nymph but you don't need to stuff her like you did the day you introduced the male. Female orchids do eat a lot but its not likely she will overeat to the point of harming herself. Temperatures and humidity stays the same for her until she lays.

Carefully remove the ootheca from her enclosure once she lays it and glue it to the lid of a well ventilated container, such as a deli cup with a fabric lid, making sure to keep the ooth in the same orientation she laid it in, you don't want to end up gluing the top where the nymphs come out. Use a low temp glue gun &amp; low temp glue. Apply the glue to the lid first, letting it cool for a few seconds before attaching the ootheca to it (the glue will still be pretty hot, feel it with your fingers first before attaching the ooth, it should still be runny enough to attach the ooth but not painfully hot.) If hot glue makes you nervous another option is to use a needle &amp; thread to tie the ootheca to the lid. 

Once you have it attached to the lid keeping the ooth at high humidity is very important to keep it from drying out but it also needs good ventilation to prevent mold from forming and to maintain the health of the eggs inside. You can place some damp moss or coco husk or a damp sponge at the bottom of the container to help increase humidity. You can periodically spray inside the container to maintain the humidity. It helps if you get a humidity sensor with a wired sensor you can place next to the ooth to make sure the humidity stays above 70%. You can also lightly spray the ooth itself with distilled water every few days, let the water droplets sit for 2 minutes then dry them off with a paper towel. This prevents the ooth from drying out but you don't want water droplets to sit on it more than a few minutes. 

Room temperature is fine, no colder than 70°F or hotter than 90°F but closer to 80°F is ideal.

Once the ooth is close to hatching (generally 6 to 8 weeks but may take as long as 10) place some small branches or a small amount of excelsior (aspen wool) inside the container to give the hatching nymphs something to hang onto but don't block directly under the ooth, they will descend down on silken strings much like baby spiders do so you need to make sure to provide enough room for that.


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## Mantis Lady (Apr 4, 2019)

I hope she will give you a few ooths.


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## Ben10101 (Apr 8, 2019)

Week 2, I don’t observe any connections anymore, the Male is still obsessively drumming, but she seems to ignore him (at least when I’m looking they aren’t connecting anymore). Probably gonna help the little man off the back tomorrow, sounds like a plan?




this is the set up I have changed her into. In the exo terra I had them in, I noticed the female is only utilising the top, is avoiding waking on glass, and the metal mesh seems to sometimes catch her raptorial limbs and tarsal claws. So instead I switched her to this mesh cage set up in my mantis misting corner, and hung up her cage next to the misting machine. (The gauge is probably inaccurate, but I’m planning on spraying her twice a day)

hopefully ooth is on the way.


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## MantisGirl13 (Apr 8, 2019)

Probably best to separate threm! If you want ooths soon, give her more places to lay!!

- MantisGirl13


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## Predatorhousepet (Apr 8, 2019)

Ben10101 said:


> Probably gonna help the little man off the back tomorrow, sounds like a plan?
> 
> In the exo terra I had them in, I noticed the female is only utilising the top, is avoiding waking on glass, and the metal mesh seems to sometimes catch her raptorial limbs and tarsal claws.


Yeah if he's been done a while and doesn't connect anymore he needs a break away from her to eat and chill. You can place a branch next to him and gently coax him onto the branch from off her back. I'm thinking one of the reasons he won't dismount is because he doesn't feel safe, there's nowhere for him to hide. When you breed mantises you need to include some real or artificial leafy plants for the male to escape into when he's done. 

After you take him out you'll need to provide some sticks for her to lay her ooth on. She'll want to place it high up and almost horizontal or at a slight angle. The branches need to be wider than 1/4 inch, more like 1/2 to 3/4 inch in diameter. Some like laying on those really wide popsicle sticks. Add some plants with big leaves. If she has a view of any other mantis you'll want to block it with a piece of cardboard or poster board. A lot of orchids refuse to lay unless they have a lot of privacy. Don't disturb her unless feeding or misting.

And since you already moved her to a mesh enclosure this next advice is just for future reference. When you use exo terra enclosures the metal screen on top is notorious for catching mantis claws so we always cover it with something more mantis friendly like fiberglass window screen, shelf liner, tulle, burlap, etc. I like using fine diameter fiberglass window screen best, it's almost invisible and doesn't catch their claws. I just cut a piece of mesh to fit and secured it in place on the underside of the lid with hot glue and wooden dowels, no need to remove the original metal screen. Here are some pics of the supplies I used to cover the metal screen and the finshed product.


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## Ben10101 (Apr 9, 2019)

Update again: “peeled” off the Male while lady is eating, she isn’t freak out even though I am prodding around with my fingers and a stick.

After ~30 seconds, she has her abdomen pointed down towards the stick, seems like something interesting might happen, I’m afraid of even zipping up her enclosure, fear it might startle her and not lay her ooth.


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## Ben10101 (Apr 9, 2019)

Is this anything significant? Or just my wishful thinking?


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## Predatorhousepet (Apr 9, 2019)

You can zip the enclosure, that's not going to prevent her from laying. Even if you do startle her a bit, she'll just wait until she's comfortable again and has some privacy to do it.  I know it's exciting, especially the first time but don't sit there watching her, just leave her to it and she'll lay when she's ready. It could still be another week or two before she does so don't worry.

Also, you need to add a lot more places for her to lay the ooth. She won't lay until you do, that branch you have in there is much too thin. She might do it on the mesh but it's better to give her lots of different options: popsicle sticks glued or tied to the top, branches of various diameters, a big leafy fake plant.


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## Ben10101 (Apr 9, 2019)

I’m gonna let her be for tonight, and tmr I’ll head to grab her some pop sickle sticks. If she still don’t lay, I’ve been eyeing down a cool plant, might just buy it and leave here to wander on it for a bit.


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## Ben10101 (Apr 10, 2019)

Not an update on the mantis, but I think this is slowly drive me crazy. I have a dream where she finally laid an ooth on a  rotisserie chicken, mid way though the dream I was aware that I’m dreaming and was hoping when I wake up I’ll see an ooth in the cage.


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## hysteresis (Apr 10, 2019)

On a chicken omg


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## MantisGirl13 (Apr 10, 2019)

Ben10101 said:


> Not an update on the mantis, but I think this is slowly drive me crazy. I have a dream where she finally laid an ooth on a  rotisserie chicken, mid way though the dream I was aware that I’m dreaming and was hoping when I wake up I’ll see an ooth in the cage.


That is HILARIOUS! 

- MantisGirl13


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## Predatorhousepet (Apr 11, 2019)

Yep, you've gone crazy. Lol


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## Ben10101 (Apr 14, 2019)

She was still calling, so I tried to place the male back on her today. Guess I freaked the male out too much, he was running around and I almost lost him when he flew on me and dashed behind my neck. Thankfully I found him, and I'll just try another day.

Also tried pairing my Theropropus, but the female was fluttering her wings to get the male off of her, so that also failed... good, just what I need, 2 pairing failures in one day...


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## hysteresis (Apr 14, 2019)

@Ben10101 You're scaring me! LoL.

I imagine I'll have to pair the species I have. Fairly soon too.

People with experience such as you and others here struggle at this. Im likely in for a personal brand new world of hurt!



I'm sure you'll pull this off tho'.


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## Ben10101 (Apr 14, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> @Ben10101 You're scaring me! LoL.
> 
> I imagine I'll have to pair the species I have. Fairly soon too.
> 
> ...


Yeah, and the fact that this is my first species that I attempted breeding since my return to the hobby My only other mantis breeding experience was back in 2011 with Creobroter sp. and I just plopped them in the same cage for a week and let them do their thing.


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## Ben10101 (Apr 21, 2019)

And here we are again... finally got him to mount on the right spot~ start drumming lil man


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## hysteresis (Apr 21, 2019)

Happy Easter.

You'll be going on an egg hunt later!


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## Ben10101 (Apr 22, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> Happy Easter.
> 
> You'll be going on an egg hunt later!


Hopefully 

Happy late Easter to you too


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## Ben10101 (May 2, 2019)

May 2nd, my second breeding attempt was at April 20th. Instead of having to "peel" the male off of the female, I just noticed him missing on her back, and instead he's hiding amounts foliage below. He probably has done his job and felt like it's time to leave? guess this is success then~ I swear, I you start calling again, I will lose it...


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## MantisGirl13 (May 2, 2019)

Ben10101 said:


> I swear, I you start calling again, I will lose it...


Females will call even if they have already been mated. Just because your female is calling doesn't mean she isn't fertile. I think you probably have a fertile female. 

- MantisGirl13


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## Ben10101 (May 2, 2019)

MantisGirl13 said:


> Females will call even if they have already been mated. Just because your female is calling doesn't mean she isn't fertile. I think you probably have a fertile female.
> 
> - MantisGirl13


Well that’s a relief to hear~ thanks!


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## MantisGirl13 (May 2, 2019)

Ben10101 said:


> Well that’s a relief to hear~ thanks!


Sure! Glad to help!

- MantisGirl13


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## Ben10101 (May 3, 2019)

I thought the lil male died, but he was just laying on his back (bad sign). When I picked up the enclosure it quickly jumped back up, and I fed it some water and food. I think he'll be fine for now, but his abdomen tip is black, it's possible that he over worked this... "thing" and now it has sustained damage right?


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## MantisGirl13 (May 3, 2019)

He could be getting old, or he could have been injured. Either way, I think he did his job!

- MantisGirl13


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## Ben10101 (May 20, 2019)

Day 20 since male hopped off, female still hasen't pooped out an ooth yet... Might I benefit in trying to get a new male and pair with her again? or do I wait more and maybe change up its conditions to aid in egg laying.


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## MantisGirl13 (May 20, 2019)

Ben10101 said:


> Day 20 since male hopped off, female still hasen't pooped out an ooth yet... Might I benefit in trying to get a new male and pair with her again? or do I wait more and maybe change up its conditions to aid in egg laying.


Hmm, try changing up conditions (more humidity, warmer) and wait a while longer. It took my budwings over a month to lay after mating.

- MantisGirl13


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## hysteresis (May 20, 2019)

I coaxed my guy off momma's back once he disconnected. Anything wrong with that? Should I let them hop off on their own?


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## MantisGirl13 (May 20, 2019)

@hysteresis If you had left him on, he might have attempted to connect again, but there's nothing bad about coaxing him off.

- MantisGirl13


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## hysteresis (May 20, 2019)

MantisGirl13 said:


> @hysteresis If you had left him on, he might have attempted to connect again, but there's nothing bad about coaxing him off.
> 
> - MantisGirl13


Four or five hours connected. 

Isn't that enough?


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## MantisGirl13 (May 20, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> Four or five hours connected.
> 
> Isn't that enough?


Ya, that's enough.

- MantisGirl13


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## Predatorhousepet (May 20, 2019)

Ben10101 said:


> Day 20 since male hopped off, female still hasen't pooped out an ooth yet... Might I benefit in trying to get a new male and pair with her again? or do I wait more and maybe change up its conditions to aid in egg laying.


You can attempt another mating but the female is probably already fertile. Some females lay only a week after mating but 20 days is not too long, it can take up to 6 weeks sometimes. As long as the current conditions are in the range of 65% to 75% humidity and 75° to 85°F you shouldn't need to change them (they'll still do well in 60 to 80% humidity and 70 to 90°F but that's the ideal you want to strive for.) Provide lots of natural sticks to lay on as well as some popsicle sticks on the ceiling and walls.


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## Predatorhousepet (May 20, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> I coaxed my guy off momma's back once he disconnected. Anything wrong with that? Should﻿ I let them hop off on their own?


No, that's fine. I usually wait until the male hops off on his own because he will connect, rest a bit (could be several hours) then go again many times over the course of several days to as long as a week. At some point he'll get hungry and hop off on his own so I usually wait until then but of you are worried about not being around when he decides to dismount and the female eating him you can coax him off after you confirm a good long connection was made.


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## hysteresis (May 20, 2019)

Is there benefit to several connections, over the long one he made today? 

My thought was to breed the other two, then swap out males. If the other survives, of course.


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## Predatorhousepet (May 20, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> Is there benefit to several connections, over the long one he made today?
> 
> My thought was to breed the other two, then swap out males. If the other survives, of course.


I don't know that one connection isn't sufficient, it should be. You can mate her again with the same male but mating her with another male is even better, that way there is more diversity in the genes of the offspring. Genetic diversity is important because it helps maintain the health of the population by including alleles that can be valuable in resisting disease and other stresses.

I did find this paper about praying mantis reproduction for a different species, Ciulfina klassi, but it says that males that do the deed more quickly have more efficient sperm transfer than ones that take a long time.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/20640553?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

There's also this study

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0124209

They predicted that males would allocate more sperm to healthier females than less healthy but they found that wasn't the case, the males gave it their all regardless of the quality of female.


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## hysteresis (May 20, 2019)

Here's the the rub. Two sisters, two brothers!


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## Predatorhousepet (May 21, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> Here's the the rub. Two sisters, two brothers!


That's ok. Even brothers from the same ooth will have slightly different genes from each other. If they come from different eggs they are not identical twins. (An ooth contains many different fertilized eggs.) However, I don't know how common or if it's even possible for identical twins to occur in a single egg inside an ooth. I'd love to be able to examine mantis DNA and find out but I don't have a lab at my disposal anymore.


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## hysteresis (May 21, 2019)

Predatorhousepet said:


> I'd love to be able to examine mantis DNA and find out but I don't have a lab at my disposal anymore.


No please. Use mine.


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