# Mystery Mantis Log



## vulturette (Sep 15, 2015)

Here I'll log all the things I figure out about my two mystery mantises. most likely Liturgusa, as stated. But if so, the mystery then becomes why they were in Florida so I stick by my title! haha. Original post here. Whenever they molt, or i see any new behaviors I'll update here.

Collected: 9/9/15

Mantis 1 "Davey": L? female. Named after the city I found them in. Definitely the more aggressive one. She WAS a pre-sub, now is for sure a sub adult. Molted 9/25 with no issues. So Davey and Tony were the same instar, but Tony just happened to be bigger.







Mantis 2 "Tony": L?+1 (I'm presuming, it's bigger than the other one) definitely a pre-sub. Was the same instar as Davey, but bigger. Now smaller, one instar behind. molted 10/11! Now a subadult. Named after my bug hunting helper.






New mantises caught 9/23


Mantis 1 The smallest, the only none pre-sub I caught. Scared of anything bigger than fruit flies. Mismolted and put down 9/27
Mantis 2 molted 9/25! Missing a leg, didn't come back with molt maybe next time! Traded away.
Mantis 3
Mantis 4 missing a leg molted 9/27
Mantis 5 traded away
Mantis 6: Adult, "badass" female. Has a ants head still biting to her raptor. Died 10/1 of presumed old age
Mantis 7: Adult, "darkwing" female.died of old age?New mantises caught:

Mantis a1: Adult

Mantis a2: Adult

Mantis 8:

Mantis 9:

Behaviors, Characteristics:
Highly cannibalistic. They attack their own reflection on the wall. I'll try and get it on film soon.
Do not climb plastic well, they fall often. Would benefit from lots of mesh or bark on the sides. Definitely would prefer a full mesh lid.
Are attracted to light. Would make catching them easier to bring a flashlight. Makes taking pictures of them easy since they come up to the light. Here is a video of Davey trying to attack the flashlight! Damn it's cute.
They are active hunters, despite their camouflage. They run around actively chasing and jumping for prey.
Before they jump they open and close their arms. Also visible in the video. Anyone understand that?
Setup: (need to get photos)
Adults are in terrariums with lots of leaning small logs, and horizontal bark. The adults lay their ootheca directly under a smooth surface in their wild habitat, so I tried to replicate that. So far they have hid on the other side of the terrarium, away from me. So they won't be the best display mantis. Although they are beautiful!
Since they are very VERY fast, I thought they would benefit from a large enclosure from the beginning. They have lots of room to run around, which they actually use. Besides, I want to minimalism how often I have to get them a bigger enclosure so they won't have a chance to escape. they might be able to live their whole lives in the container I put them in. Feeding hasn't been an issue.
I mist every few days. My house is pretty damn humid already, but where I found them felt like 100% humidity so might as well.
Currently feeding on flightless fruit flies, small wild flies, and whatever small insect I can find for variety. Adults can eat superworms if pre cut in half. They dont shy away from the cut pieces like my ghosts do, they went for it immediately.
Wow this post is long. Probably not horribly new information.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Sep 15, 2015)

Cool little guys. I think mantises that run around fast are shaped a little more flat and 'cockroachy' than the typical mantis are neat.


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## mantiseater (Sep 15, 2015)

Salmonsaladsandwich said:


> Cool little guys. I think mantises that run around fast are shaped a little more flat and 'cockroachy' than the typical mantis are neat.


U should see chaeteesa sp those are amazing and look like roaches


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## CosbyArt (Sep 15, 2015)

Those are some lighting fast mantids. Never seen any move around that fast or jittery. The flashlight was great, showed the forearm flip/pumping before strinking - strange behavior for any I've kept for sure.


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## dmina (Sep 17, 2015)

Really cool... can't wait to find out what it is??? Thanks for sharing..


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## vulturette (Sep 23, 2015)

Update! Today I went out and found way more of the same species. Including adults! No waiting to see how they look fully grown. To me, they look very different from grisea (besides similar coloration). Their abdomen are very different, a lot less wide than grisea and less obviously segmented. Of course, the ootheca are more proof than body shape as they are clearly not any known Florida ootheca. I also saw an l1 (geeze I hope it was l1 only, it was pill bug size) that was absolutely tiny. Didn't try and catch it, as I need springtails. Here is an album on imgur with pictures of the set up for the new nymphs (some of them at least), a few pictures of the adults (one has an ant head still stuck on her!), some segment shots, and a bonus cute bug photo. Click the photos to see them huge, if it helps.

What sex are the adults? I think female, but I'm not so great at this.

Anyone have a closer/specific identification?

EDIT: Also, the original two nymphs are doing great


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## Jake the mantis guy (Sep 25, 2015)

vulturette said:


> Update! Today I went out and found way more of the same species. Including adults! No waiting to see how they look fully grown. To me, they look very different from grisea (besides similar coloration). Their abdomen are very different, a lot less wide than grisea and less obviously segmented. Of course, the ootheca are more proof than body shape as they are clearly not any known Florida ootheca. I also saw an l1 (geeze I hope it was l1 only, it was pill bug size) that was absolutely tiny. Didn't try and catch it, as I need springtails. Here is an album on imgur with pictures of the set up for the new nymphs (some of them at least), a few pictures of the adults (one has an ant head still stuck on her!), some segment shots, and a bonus cute bug photo. Click the photos to see them huge, if it helps.
> 
> What sex are the adults? I think female, but I'm not so great at this.
> 
> ...


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## Jake the mantis guy (Sep 25, 2015)

vulturette said:


> Update! Today I went out and found way more of the same species. Including adults! No waiting to see how they look fully grown. To me, they look very different from grisea (besides similar coloration). Their abdomen are very different, a lot less wide than grisea and less obviously segmented. Of course, the ootheca are more proof than body shape as they are clearly not any known Florida ootheca. I also saw an l1 (geeze I hope it was l1 only, it was pill bug size) that was absolutely tiny. Didn't try and catch it, as I need springtails. Here is an album on imgur with pictures of the set up for the new nymphs (some of them at least), a few pictures of the adults (one has an ant head still stuck on her!), some segment shots, and a bonus cute bug photo. Click the photos to see them huge, if it helps.
> 
> What sex are the adults? I think female, but I'm not so great at this.
> 
> ...


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## Jake the mantis guy (Sep 25, 2015)

Would you sell? I've been looking for this spp for some time.


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## mantiseater (Sep 25, 2015)

Jake the mantis guy said:


> Would you sell? I've been looking for this spp for some time.


I doubt this is the species u are looking for unless u are looking for what is probably liturgusa Maya or a new species. You are probably looking for gonatista grisea. These both are difficult to raise and breed. That being said I would recommend trying some other species if u are a new breeder.


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## vulturette (Sep 25, 2015)

Jake the mantis guy said:


> Would you sell? I've been looking for this spp for some time.


I would not sell these wild caught individuals, if my adults laid fertile ootheca I would probably sell those. Although under what name and for what price, I dont know.


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## mantisman 230 (Sep 25, 2015)

Hmm definitely have a few females. One looks male as well  the males have longer antennae, and are narrower. Their abdomen has a rounded off look to it, while females are more cone-shaped.


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## vulturette (Sep 25, 2015)

mantisman 230 said:


> Hmm definitely have a few females. One looks male as well  the males have longer antennae, and are narrower. Their abdomen has a rounded off look to it, while females are more cone-shaped.


Which mantises are you talking about? My original pictures in my first post or the album I posted in my update? The album I posted only pictures two adults multiple times.


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## mantisman 230 (Sep 25, 2015)

Newer one, Ill take a closer look on my PC


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## mantiseater (Sep 25, 2015)

mantisman 230 said:


> Newer one, Ill take a closer look on my PC


Not a male it just looks like it from above


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## mantisman 230 (Sep 25, 2015)

The one that is called "badass might be, wings seem longer. Can you get underside shots?


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## vulturette (Sep 26, 2015)

mantisman 230 said:


> The one that is called "badass might be, wings seem longer. Can you get underside shots?


I'm away for the weekend, I'll try and get shots during the week. It might be hard unless I move it to a plain container for the photos since they are released into a split ten gallon filled with lichen covered bark and they don't really go up against the glass at all (since they fall right off it). But I'd definitely like a double check.


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## vulturette (Sep 28, 2015)

Update: It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

Number 4 molted just fine. Number 1, the only none pre-sub mismolted horrible, only having use in one leg. No arms, all other legs up, and back stuck bent. My first mismolt ever, I feel so sad. Had to freeze her. She's in some alcohol now.

I HAVE AN OOTHECA! My female laid her first ootheca, and proceeded to get herself stuck and lost. I found her though, eventually. Beefing up security now.


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## mantiseater (Sep 28, 2015)

awwww and congrats! how did she get lost hahaha? I had 4 l1 liturgusa escape they are soooooo fast


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## vulturette (Sep 28, 2015)

mantiseater said:


> awwww and congrats! how did she get lost hahaha? I had 4 l1 liturgusa escape they are soooooo fast


She got between the layer I used to divide the aquarium. And stuck herself on some duct tape. I took out all of the decor in the tank and started searching the surroundings when I saw her long antenna pocking out of the top. Shes fine now though! I reenforced the butt out of the tank now, they should be good. I'm actually glad it happened, If I hadn't taken it apart I wouldn't have found her ooth.


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## CosbyArt (Sep 28, 2015)

Glad to hear you found her safe and sound and even got a ooth for the trouble.




Congrats on getting her off the tape too - I had some get loose once when transferring them to habitats and they found some packing tape and in the end had to be put in the freezer as they could not peel off without ripping apart. Tape seems to be their mortal enemy.


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## Jake the mantis guy (Sep 30, 2015)

This is the spp I'm looking for, and if she lays please tell me


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## dmina (Oct 1, 2015)

Jake the mantis guy said:


> This is the spp I'm looking for, and if she lays please tell me


Do you know what this species is called?


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## vulturette (Oct 2, 2015)

Alright so update! Came back home to badass the adult dead on the bottom of her enclosure. Zero signs of trauma and she was eating just fine. I'm thinking since she was wild caught it was just a matter of old age. She hadn't laid an ootheca for me so that's a bummer. I'm hoping the other adult can give me many more ootheca before she passes as well. All of the other nymphs are doing great.


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## mantisman 230 (Oct 2, 2015)

Have you been spraying them regularly?


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## vulturette (Oct 2, 2015)

mantisman 230 said:


> Have you been spraying them regularly?


Yup, although it's barely necessary as my room is always humid anyway.


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## vulturette (Oct 8, 2015)

Man, Update: My last adult female is dying today. She was walking around a bunch the past few days (I hoped looking for a place to lay an ooth), and then spent all last night calling. Today I wake up, and she is face down in the dirt in front of the log she was calling on. She is still alive, and holding herself up, but she doesn't move unless moved (and is awkward and slow when she does). This is the first time I've been able to hold her since I've caught her. I assume that is a bad sign. I hoped she would lay a bunch of ootheca for me to culture the species, but I guess I'll have to work with one for now. Maybe an adult collecting trip is in order. Sigh.


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## Danny. (Oct 8, 2015)

What are you feeding them?


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## vulturette (Oct 8, 2015)

Danny. said:


> What are you feeding them?


Wild flies, moths, some small roaches, chopped up superworms I've been raising. She last ate half a superworm a few days ago. I offered her a small roach which scared her, and moths afterwards which she also refused. I assumed she was full from the superworm. I tried to feed her honey just now, but she won't move her mouth. She's still hanging in there though.


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## mantisman 230 (Oct 8, 2015)

They need to drink, misting isn't always about humidity. I don't spray mine but do give them a drink. How well ventilated is the enclosure?


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## Sticky (Oct 8, 2015)

That's sad. Im sorry she is dying.


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## vulturette (Oct 8, 2015)

mantisman 230 said:


> They need to drink, misting isn't always about humidity. I don't spray mine but do give them a drink. How well ventilated is the enclosure?


I noticed this species likes to drink, I have been spraying the sticks they lay on directly. So unless they need lots to drink I don't think that's an issue. She was in a split ten gallon tank, with a full mesh top. So I think ventilated enough?


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## vulturette (Oct 8, 2015)

Sticky said:


> That's sad. Im sorry she is dying.


Thanks Sticky. Hopefully her ootheca hatches and her nymphs become the future of this species! Trying to look on the bright side.


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## mantisman 230 (Oct 8, 2015)

An all mesh enclosure is better for them.


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## Danny. (Oct 8, 2015)

mantisman 230 said:


> An all mesh enclosure is better for them.


I agree, and no jars.


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## vulturette (Oct 8, 2015)

mantisman 230 said:


> An all mesh enclosure is better for them.


Where are you getting this information? I have an order for a bunch of deli cups coming in this week. I will make the lid mesh. Would they be acceptable if I make lots of cross ventilation by replacing most of the body with mesh?


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## mantisman 230 (Oct 8, 2015)

That usually works, species who need high humidity to better with mesh cages because they have more ventilation. It also prevents stress and ease of climbing the sides. Put bark on the lids instead of mesh to make them more comfortable.


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## mantiseater (Oct 8, 2015)

species that need high humidity like some of my peru mantids which share the safe environment as that genera DROP like flies in net cubes. They let humidity out way to fast. I use plastic containers with one side mesh for ventilation, and a paper towel top for younger instars and mesh for older. I put wet paper towels at the bottom


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## mantisman 230 (Oct 8, 2015)

Ahh yes, singular panel would be best one one side, but make sure they dont dry out!


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## vulturette (Oct 11, 2015)

Update! A happy one this time. Over the weekend one of the originals molted, Tony. Now both Tony and Davey are sub adults. Very exciting. Everyone else is still pre-sub. My package also arrived with a buttload of deli cups (twenty five 32 ounce, twenty five smaller ones (don't remember the size). Now everyone is in a deli cup with mesh on one front and a mess lid, with an inch of top soil on the bottom and a some bark inside. Everyone seems good with the change. Two nymphs are going off to a new home later in the week. The remaining nymphs I'll grow up and if I end up with no pairs (I'm almost 100% I dont) I will take my future adults to their breeding ground and have them attract me a male hopefully! If my current only ooth ends up hatching in a few months, I'll hopefully get enough pairs to start getting in the hands of good breeders :helpsmilie: lol. Either way, it'll be months. So impatient! I don't know the molting times yet, as no one mantis has molted more than once.


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## mantiseater (Oct 12, 2015)

Great to hear everything is doing well


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## vulturette (Oct 12, 2015)

mantiseater said:


> Great to hear everything is doing well


Well, it isn't anymore!  Ugh. I think there is something wrong with the soil I used. Its a topsoil from a bag, no pesticides indicated or anything, and we definitely don't use any, Nymph #5 is dying. I found her laying on the stick with her two back legs off, so I tried to move her and she fell off. I thought MAYBE she was trying to molt, so I stuck her to the top of the mesh, but she fell off again and hasn't moved since. The only thing the same between the adult enclosure and the new nymph enclosure is the soil. Unless the nymph just died for no reason? The other nymphs in the same set up are just fine. Very frustrating. Just in case, I'm going to take all my nymphs out of their new enclosures, take all of the stuff out of them, and then put them in the empty containers.

EDIT: Things that could be wrong:

Maybe it's too cold? It's still mid-low seventies in my room. Maybe they want warmer? I have a heat lamp I could set up.

Maybe there is something in the dirt? I could go back to paper towel I guess. Ugh.

Maybe stress from moving to a new container?

Maybe this one nymph was just sickly? Everyone else is fine, but if the adults didn't die of old age maybe something bigger is going on?


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## mantisman 230 (Oct 12, 2015)

Well keep us posted


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## vulturette (Oct 12, 2015)

Well, I took everyone out of their nice new pretty enclosures, took all the dirt and sticks out, cleaned it out with hot water, and just put more paper towel back in. Everyone else seems 100% okay. The nymph might have just been wrong. They were wild caught, so could have just been something wrong naturally. I'll let the body stay out instead of in alcohol to see if a parasite is to blame. I'm thinking about setting up my heat lamp juuuuust in case it's getting too chilly for them (70s isn't very chilly, but they are a tropical species who knows).

My friend wants to go collecting with me, how could I say no to that? She's usually scared of bugs so time to convert her! So I'll try and find more adult females, or ANY males at all. Can't believe I caught nine mantises and they were all female. So yeah! Hope it goes well. Should have an update after the weekend.


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## mantiseater (Oct 13, 2015)

Wet paper towels are better to use than soil


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## vulturette (Oct 17, 2015)

Okay so I came a back from my trip! I got one pre sub, one sub, and two adults. All females. I found at least a dozen of the same species though. They were ALL females though, so I didn't take nearly as many as I caught. I'm beginning to wonder if this species is parthenogenic? Or if I'm just super unlucky because at this point I've seen two dozen females and no males. And they are clearly breeding. I guess I'll raise up my nymphs and incubate their supposedly unfertile ooth.


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## CosbyArt (Oct 17, 2015)

vulturette said:


> ...
> 
> Or if I'm just super unlucky because at this point I've seen two dozen females and no males
> 
> ...


Not sure about your species, but I've noticed when I collected wild mantids it depends on the "season". For example when collecting shortly after they become adults, or they are actively mating, I tended to get about 50-50 of males and females; however, once they start laying ooths it tends to be only females.

Not sure of the location you caught the females, but you might try to see if the females can call some males. For example returning to the area you caught them with a adult female (or several), that finished molting 2-3 weeks at that point, in a net cage or well ventilated habitat. Arrive a few hours before sunset and stay for a few hours after dark - that seems to be the best time. Any males should be called in by the females pheromones and land on her cage, where you can capture them.


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## mantiseater (Oct 17, 2015)

CosbyArt said:


> Not sure about your species, but I've noticed when I collected wild mantids it depends on the "season". For example when collecting shortly after they become adults, or they are actively mating, I tended to get about 50-50 of males and females; however, once they start laying ooths it tends to be only females.
> 
> Not sure of the location you caught the females, but you might try to see if the females can call some males. For example returning to the area you caught them with a adult female (or several), that finished molting 2-3 weeks at that point, in a net cage or well ventilated habitat. Arrive a few hours before sunset and stay for a few hours after dark - that seems to be the best time. Any males should be called in by the females pheromones and land on her cage, where you can capture them.


The place closes at night. maybe if u leave a net case in a very concealed place...


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## CosbyArt (Oct 17, 2015)

mantiseater said:


> The place closes at night. maybe if u leave a net case in a very concealed place...


Likely any males would just leave before anyone would return. Sounds like the best option would be doing it 3 hours or so before the place closes.


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## vulturette (Oct 17, 2015)

CosbyArt said:


> Not sure about your species, but I've noticed when I collected wild mantids it depends on the "season". For example when collecting shortly after they become adults, or they are actively mating, I tended to get about 50-50 of males and females; however, once they start laying ooths it tends to be only females.
> 
> Not sure of the location you caught the females, but you might try to see if the females can call some males. For example returning to the area you caught them with a adult female (or several), that finished molting 2-3 weeks at that point, in a net cage or well ventilated habitat. Arrive a few hours before sunset and stay for a few hours after dark - that seems to be the best time. Any males should be called in by the females pheromones and land on her cage, where you can capture them.


There were pretty much every instar where I found them. Adults, ooths, hatched ooths, l1s, pre subs, subs, etc. Everything. So not finding males when I was swimming in nymphs was a little weird. They have a bunch of generations at once, at least in Florida. Looks like I'm on the long road of raising the ooth the adults lay, then breeding those nymphs. Or just sending the ooths to other member and have them sort it out! lol.


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## CosbyArt (Oct 18, 2015)

vulturette said:


> There were pretty much every instar where I found them. Adults, ooths, hatched ooths, l1s, pre subs, subs, etc. Everything. So not finding males when I was swimming in nymphs was a little weird. They have a bunch of generations at once, at least in Florida. Looks like I'm on the long road of raising the ooth the adults lay, then breeding those nymphs. Or just sending the ooths to other member and have them sort it out! lol.


Sounds like the males should have been mixed in for sure. As you suggested they may be parthenogenic or the males are simply harder to identify. Might be worth the effort to share some with a longtime keeper to see what they can discover.


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## vulturette (Oct 30, 2015)

Update:

I'm not good at logs! Send two off to their new home for a trade, one survived one did not. One of my small nymphs died 10/12, not entirely sure why. Same care as all the other nymphs who are fine, perhaps it was just a weak nymph. I now have two adult females, and four sub adult and presub females. One of the adults laid an ootheca 10/19! looks pretty good, it's incubating with the ooth from my first adults ooth, which should hatch soon? I think. If my guess of two months is correct. Which it probably isn't! haha. Here are some good photos of the sub adults, and adult. Imgur link! I'd post them here, but I don't want to resize them so much. They are seriously beautiful.


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## vulturette (Nov 15, 2015)

WE HAVE NYMPHS! ahhh! My first nymphs ever I'm so nervous. Incredibly, it's my second ooth that hatched, not the first one that was laid. It was incubating at room temperature (74ish) with misting every few days from 10-19 to 11-15 not even a month!! About fifteen nymphs came out so far, one mismolt. Their body is smaller than the length of a grain of rice. They are really fast.

I have a culture of springtails, but I've run into some problems. My culture now has these springtail sized mites that EAT springtails. Are these predatory mites? Can I feed these to my new nymphs? Or should I dump the culture and start again?


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## mantisman 230 (Nov 15, 2015)

I would get a new culture, but those mites may be useful. Mantids aren't picky. I had a phorid fly infestation and until fruit flies came in I fed them out to my small nymphs.


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## happy1892 (Nov 16, 2015)

mantisman 230 said:


> I would get a new culture, but those mites may be useful. Mantids aren't picky. I had a phorid fly infestation and until fruit flies came in I fed them out to my small nymphs.


I thought the mites had some type of chemical that made them distasteful. Have you're mantids eaten mites before? My mantids would not eat phorid flies, but I think I tried it only once on maybe L1 or L2 Stagmomantis carolina or Tenodera sinensis (can't remember). Maybe the mantises I tried were not ready to eat yet. I have some phorid flies breeding in apple sauce mixed with a little oat meal. lol They are actually breeding, but slowly by fruit fly standards.


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