# male and female chinese



## womantis (Sep 18, 2015)

are there different species of chinese? do i have the same species? female on right, male on left. size difference is even more apparent in person.

i raised the female from L1 - she has 6 segments and very round abdomen. the male is wild caught, slender and at least 1.5 x her size.


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## Ghost_Keeper (Sep 18, 2015)

Look like both Tenodera Sinensis to me.


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## LAME (Sep 19, 2015)

Heya womantis, just got home and seen the emails... I agree that they both do looks Chinese.

The male was a wildcaught... Which may have a little to do with his overall size? I agree though now that I've seen your photos lol... He is big.

Maybe your female's just smaller for some reason?...

That is weird.


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## womantis (Sep 19, 2015)

he is gorgeous lame..and of the few wild caught, is still the absolute biggest i have seen for sure..perhaps our mantids in california are just smaller and illinois is good living for the mantids? wondering if she's a risk for losing her head...


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## LAME (Sep 19, 2015)

Has she started calling yet?... I'd say watch out for that and keep an eye on the male and judge his reactions...

Can you get a photo of the female's inside part of her arms?

Though she looks Chinese, I'd feel better knowing for sure before recommending breeding.

I'd feel terrible of you bought a male for a female of another sort, though if that's the case I could get you a female or refund you.

On a side not though, if you think he's big.... You should see the female's here! Lol! They are pretty nicely sized..


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## Krissim Klaw (Sep 19, 2015)

womantis said:


> are there different species of chinese? do i have the same species? female on right, male on left. size difference is even more apparent in person.
> 
> i raised the female from L1 - she has 6 segments and very round abdomen. the male is wild caught, slender and at least 1.5 x her size.


Is it possible the girl is a _Tenodera angustipennis? _Look between her claws where they attach to her thorax and see if there is a bright orange dot. If so you are most likely dealing with a _Tenodera angustipennis._


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## Rick (Sep 19, 2015)

Could be T. angustipennis. Check the "armpits" for an orange spot. T. sinensis will have a yellow spot there. There are other differences but that is the quickest way to tell.


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## LAME (Sep 19, 2015)

Chinese also will have small black dots on the inside of their arms. T. angustipennis won't..


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## womantis (Sep 19, 2015)

both have yellow dot between arms, neither dot is that pronounced so a bit hard to tell. her hindwings appear are uniformly lacy brown.

out of curiousity, isn't the size difference (female bigger than male) necessary for breeding?



LAME said:


> Has she started calling yet?... I'd say watch out for that and keep an eye on the male and judge his reactions...
> Can you get a photo of the female's inside part of her arms?
> Though she looks Chinese, I'd feel better knowing for sure before recommending breeding.
> 
> ...


she appears to be calling in any case...would love to buy a female from you - no refund! i honestly would be interested in seeing the size of a females you have!


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## womantis (Sep 19, 2015)

Rick said:


> Could be T. angustipennis. Check the "armpits" for an orange spot. T. sinensis will have a yellow spot there. There are other differences but that is the quickest way to tell.


i see a faint yellow dot between arms of both.


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## womantis (Sep 19, 2015)

she also had uniformly lacy hindwings. out of curiosity, with such a marked size difference (male being larger), could breeding take place? i thought the male had to be smaller.


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## MantidBro (Sep 19, 2015)

womantis said:


> she also had uniformly lacy hindwings. out of curiosity, with such a marked size difference (male being larger), could breeding take place? i thought the male had to be smaller.


I honestly am not sure they could mate considering how much bigger than her he is. I think youre right that they need to be smaller be able to reach the right spot. If he grabbed onto her shoulders i dont think itd be as easy for him. But its worth a shot. I had a sinensis female that was 3", and found a male at a different spot that was bigger than her. Sometimes some are just bigger than others. Maybe he ate more, maybe one was wild caught and the other captive bred, etc. I realized ones i caught outside were always bigger than the ones i hatched and raised. Maybe it has to do with there being more oxygen outside, i read that insects back in the day were so huge compared to todays insects because there was more oxygen, so there was always enough for their bodies as they grew.


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## LAME (Sep 19, 2015)

I was on debate about the wild / captive theory myself...


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## MantidBro (Sep 19, 2015)

LAME said:


> I was on debate about the wild / captive theory myself...


Oh yeah... Echo was huge and was raised in captivity, hmm... Maybe like we mentioned back then, it is more related to how much variety they get, prey-wise? Or maybe just how much they eat? Echo was definitely well fed lolOr maybe its simply genes?


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## mantisman 230 (Sep 19, 2015)

I have bred a pair with this difference before xD was interesting. I have found such "Pygmy" female chinese mantids before. Were much smaller than my other females.


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## dmina (Sep 19, 2015)

womantis said:


> wondering if she's a risk for losing her head...


The male is not interested in eating.. (hopefully you try and feed him prior to breeding) He is there for another reason... LOL


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## LAME (Sep 19, 2015)

Mantidbro is right.. Echo was big. But my newest Chinese female is even bigger than she. Which came as a surprise to me...

Though I could imagine a captives home,feeding diet, lighting, ect.. Could all be factors at play? This maybe stunting growth?...


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## MantidBro (Sep 19, 2015)

LAME said:


> Mantidbro is right.. Echo was big. But my newest Chinese female is even bigger than she. Which came as a surprise to me...
> 
> Though I could imagine a captives home,feeding diet, lighting, ect.. Could all be factors at play? This maybe stunting growth?...


I would think so! like the size of their cage might even be a factor, like how plants wont grow too big if theyre in a smaller terrarium


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## Mantis Man13 (Sep 19, 2015)

Yes I have done much research about his and captive bred mantises tend to be smaller than wild mantises. Just like you I have had a 3 inch female chinese captive bred and found a 3 inch male chinese outside. Also, I have bred 2.5 inch male chinese as captive. Female chinese mantises outside tend to be about 4 inches long. This is just how it goes and I have come to accept it over the years. Do not worry about it, your mantis is just fine. It just has to do with several different factors for caged vs free mantises, like for example the mantis sitting in a cage the whole day every day.  This fundamental goes for all types of mantises. My female dead leaf mantis wild would be 4 inches long but it turned out 3 inches captive. My brunners stick mantis would have been 4 inches long as well but it turned out 3 inches captive. My carolina mantises, since they were wild for 3 molts, became normal size as an adult, however. If they were raise in captivity as an infant that would not be the case. As you can see there is obviously a connection between growth rates of wild vs kept mantises. If you have anything to add on to this please let me know.


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## Rick (Sep 19, 2015)

womantis said:


> i thought the male had to be smaller.


Not at all. In Tenodera the males are often as long as the females.


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## CosbyArt (Sep 20, 2015)

My wild caught Chinese mantid pair I kept for myself are nearly the same length. The male comes in slightly smaller in length than the female, close to 3 3/4" and the female is about 4". The male though is much smaller in width and girth than the female for sure though.  

Not sure I'd try breeding a huge male with a petite girl though, but let us know what you do. I'm curious if it would work out fine, as it likely would.


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## LAME (Sep 20, 2015)

My opinion:

If it were me... I'd go for it. Lets face it, female's tend to be the aggressors especially when theyre ready for breeding. Most male's I've ever had, regardless of the size... Tend to be skittish and prone to either continuously running /flying away or ending in death.

Personally I don't think I'd be to concerned with him eating her... But probably the other way around. Once he senses her... His instincts will take over and he'll try to breed. But I'd still feed him prior juuuust as a safty precaution...

... But that's me.


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## MantidBro (Sep 20, 2015)

LAME said:


> My opinion:
> 
> If it were me... I'd go for it. Lets face it, female's tend to be the aggressors especially when theyre ready for breeding. Most male's I've ever had, regardless of the size... Tend to be skittish and prone to either continuously running /flying away or ending in death.
> 
> ...


I also wouldnt worry so much about the male eating her. Especially if hes well fed. Like LAME said, males tend to be skittish, while females are more aggressive. My main concern would be, whether or not he would be able to penetrate! Im not sure just how flexible their abdomens are. Hed have to bend it quite a bit to reach, considering the size difference. I wouldnt say its IMPOSSIBLE for them to breed. Id say its wort a shot too. You never know!


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## Mantis Man13 (Sep 20, 2015)

Not true MantidBro :stuart: . I once had a male and female Chinese and when the male went onto the female's back I thought he was going to mate with her but instead he slowly lowered his head and started to nibble on the female!!! inch: . Thankfully, I was able to gently pry him off before he got the chompers out. Anyone ever notice this odd behavior before? By the way I stuffed him with food before hand and he still did this so yah... VERY strange behavior.


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## LAME (Sep 20, 2015)

I've seen that before... With my first budwing males. I never got mate's for them... But both would constantly try to have at my finger...lol.

But anyway everytime I'd try to move him/them... Theyd lower their head and kinda pinch me with both the raptorial claws and mouth.. Not so much to eat.. More like a submissive maneuver

But with a female... I haven't seen it yet. I try not to involve myself once they start the session... Whatever happens, happens. As it would naturally.


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## MantidBro (Sep 20, 2015)

Mantis Man13 said:


> Not true MantidBro :stuart: . I once had a male and female Chinese and when the male went onto the female's back I thought he was going to mate with her but instead he slowly lowered his head and started to nibble on the female!!! inch: . Thankfully, I was able to gently pry him off before he got the chompers out. Anyone ever notice this odd behavior before? By the way I stuffed him with food before hand and he still did this so yah... VERY strange behavior.


I wouldnt worry SO MUCH. Like i mean, it wouldnt be my main concern. it had happened to me only twice, where the male tried to nibble on a female. but its rare ya know? Only happened for me twice in the past four years. I think theyre just getting confused and not realizing its a female to mate with, and they just think shes a regular insect to eat. I honestly dont think the female would allow him to do enough damage before she destroyed him lol.


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## womantis (Sep 20, 2015)

my small tenodera female is receptive, she doesn't even move when he approaches her and calls continuously. i put him both behind and then on her - he just kept moving. even when he settled, i put her in front. she wiggled a bit and he just turned away...will keep trying.


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## MantidBro (Sep 20, 2015)

womantis said:


> my small tenodera female is receptive, she doesn't even move when he approaches her and calls continuously. i put him both behind and then on her - he just kept moving. even when he settled, i put her in front. she wiggled a bit and he just turned away...will keep trying.


Good luck!Sometimes the male doesnt even know the female is there, you can help by blowing on the female or pointing a fan at her to cause her to move around. The movement usually makes the male realize she is there, if hes a good distance behind her. Not too close but not too far


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## Mantis Man13 (Sep 20, 2015)

I see stories all the time about how their male gets eaten. The problem? They keep their male in a captive cage alone with a vicious cannabilistic female! I have never had one of my males been killed because I control the entire operation. I watch the mantises for 2-3 hours and then carefully and gently pry the male loose. There IS definite reason to worry about a cannibilistic insect like lol guys why wouldn't there be. I have seen more cannibalistic cases than ever on this forum XD.


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## minomantis (Sep 22, 2015)

This was all very interesting to read, especially about the oxygen comment.

Just curious, has anyone done a test of how food affects growth. For example, a mantis that eats crickets his/her whole life vs. a mantis that eats outside bugs? I think that would be very interesting to see. Personally, when I raise my T. sins, even though they are being raised inside, I go outside and catch flies, moths, really what ever I could find everyday. I'm not certain what affects size more. The amount of consumption or the types of food it eats. My female that I raised this year ate everything under the sun and I was very happy with her size as an adult.

When it came time to mate her, I had her call in a male from the outdoors instead of the male that I raised for the sake of different genes, and the male outdoors was actually smaller then the male that I raised. The outdoor male was all sorts of colors though and seemed more with it, but I think it's safe to say that even though there is a general size, every mantis is different. 2 years ago I had two females molt to adulthood within a day of each other and one was noticeably bigger than the other.

But also when comparing mantises, I think we have to break the definition of what captivity means. Does it mean in a cage for the majority of it's life eating crickets or does it mean in the care of someone else. Because although I raised my mantids, I try to resemble the outdoors as much as possible, I'm just fascinated by how they grow. I let them walk around on house plants and catch different insects for them. Really only in cage for feeding and sleeping. Now would a mantis that grew like that be fair to compare to a mantis that spent most of it's life growing in a container? (Not that there is anything wrong with that, just different scenarios). Just trying to get some discussion.


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## CosbyArt (Sep 23, 2015)

minomantis said:


> This was all very interesting to read, especially about the oxygen comment.
> 
> Just curious, has anyone done a test of how food affects growth. For example, a mantis that eats crickets his/her whole life vs. a mantis that eats outside bugs? I think that would be very interesting to see....
> 
> ...


If you interested in the more oxygen equals larger insect comment, yes it appears to be true and here is one scientific experiment that showed it. Seems to have shown that yes insects can grow larger, and that the atmosphere had more oxygen at one point. There is more data/experiments out there about it as well that seem to prove the hypothesis is correct.

In regards to what mantids eat affecting their size I haven't seen any hard data about it.

I know any mantids I raised from ootheca to adults fed on my cultured crickets and cultured wax moths have been about the same size compared to wild caught ones of the same species (Stagmomantis carolina). Out of the nearly 2 dozen wild Carolina mantids I captured this year alone there is no remarkable size difference (or even noticeable) between wild or captive mantids. I've seen smaller and larger ones in each group (wild and captive raised) when compared to each other.

In absolutely controlled scientific experiments there might be a result; however, in real world results I don't think it exists - as any changes seem to average out to no difference. This summer I've been feeding my mantids wild captured GB/BB flies, moths, and other insects - I have only seen one detectable change and that is to my wallet as they were free feeders I didn't have to buy or culture.


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## womantis (Sep 23, 2015)

they are mating or at least trying. the issue that i see is that because his abdomen is so much longer and she is so much shorter, he can't position himself to connect. she is very receptive but i don't think she will have a fertile ooth.


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## womantis (Sep 23, 2015)

see new topic with image (couldn't upload image on this post)


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