# urgent concern:



## sjb123 (Oct 12, 2010)

i looked at my orchid mantis today and her leg was all black and mouldy and seemed useless whathas happened? what can i do? here is what it looks like


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## sjb123 (Oct 12, 2010)

will it infect further? will she be ok?


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## MrPitseleh (Oct 12, 2010)

That doesn't look too good.  My chinese male is losing his leg too but his was already small when I caught him. If it's moldy and you're worried about it spreading maybe you should clip it she might chew it off herself if it's just limp and getting in the way. Hope she survives.


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## LauraMG (Oct 12, 2010)

That's not an uncommon condition among orchids in captivity. Here is a thread on it. Might be beneficial to amputate that leg if it looks like it's spreading

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=15038&amp;st=20&amp;p=103514&amp;hl=+orchid%20+black%20+death&amp;fromsearch=1entry103514


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## hibiscusmile (Oct 12, 2010)

She does need to lose it


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## Rick (Oct 13, 2010)

With some sterile sharp scissors snip the leg off before the black area. Whatever that is (nobody knows yet) it will spread and kill the mantis. I've had it happen a time or two. Usually it starts on the head.


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## ismart (Oct 14, 2010)

Definitely snip that leg off before it spreads any further. More than likly she will not make it either way!


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## sjb123 (Oct 14, 2010)

last night i caght her moulting and she died during moulting :'(

the mantis in my pic is her


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## Morpheus uk (Oct 14, 2010)

You would of thought if a mantis limb was in need of amputation it would come of naturally, what with dropping limbs in defence and all. I would thought slicing off a limb would cause needless stree and potential further injury.

How exactly would a specific limb get infected anyway?


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 14, 2010)

Morpheus uk said:


> You would of thought if a mantis limb was in need of amputation it would come of naturally, what with dropping limbs in defence and all. I would thought slicing off a limb would cause needless stree and potential further injury.
> 
> How exactly would a specific limb get infected anyway?


Nope. Orthoptera, crix and grasshoppers, may shed their hind legs defensively, since they are much preyed upon, but I have never known of a mantis shedding its limb in such a way and certainly not in response to infection.

As far as stress (?) and "potential further injury" are concerned, you are right, of course, but if the blackened area spreads it seems to be invariably fatal, so the same rule appears to apply here that applies to amputating a gangrenous human leg.

Treating an infected or necrotic limb does not really need a knowledge of the aetiology of the aggressive organ and most of us are neither equipped nor trained to do a histological analysis. I would suspect, though, from the fact that the chitin is discolored, that it may be a fungal lesion penetrating from the surface of the mantis. The point here is that if the limb is amputated, the mantis may die, but if it is not amputated, it almost certainly will.

Interesting to hear from you again, Morpheus. Are you keeping any mantids these days?


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## Rick (Oct 15, 2010)

Morpheus uk said:


> You would of thought if a mantis limb was in need of amputation it would come of naturally, what with dropping limbs in defence and all. I would thought slicing off a limb would cause needless stree and potential further injury.
> 
> How exactly would a specific limb get infected anyway?


Mantids don't drop legs. That black stuff that develops WILL kill the mantis. If it is going to die anyways you may as well try to help by removing the affected limb. Removing a leg won't hurt the mantis too much.


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## Morpheus uk (Oct 15, 2010)

Yes i still keep mantids, never stopped. Haemolymph doesnt clot from what i've heard, wouldnt severing a limb cause it to bleed out?


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## MantidLord (Oct 15, 2010)

I've amputated plenty of legs of various mantis species with fine results. I've never just snipped them off, I'd rub/twist them gently until they came off. This of course was done for the mantids' benefit, and usually occurred with taped or mismolted individuals.


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 16, 2010)

Morpheus uk said:


> Yes i still keep mantids, never stopped. Haemolymph doesnt clot from what i've heard, wouldnt severing a limb cause it to bleed out?


You know, that's an interesting question. I've never done an amputation on a mantis, but I have on a number of crickets to compare fore, mid and hind leg regeneration. There was no observable loss of hemolymph, which is good since having a leg amputated, as opposed to shedding it, would otherwise be a death sentence. I kept some super glue handy though. It acts as a great "bandage" as well as adhesive.

Glad to hear that you haven't gone over completely to the Dark (phasmid) Side!


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## hibiscusmile (Oct 16, 2010)

I never had one bleed out.


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## MantidLord (Oct 16, 2010)

I thought it does clot. I've had mantids attacked by other ones and start bleeding. A couple hours later, theirs a sort of scab on the injury site.


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 16, 2010)

Ha ha! I just looked at my post and see that I said that the question was "interesting", but not why!

When I was trying to study biology in the '60s, insects didn't have a clotting mechanism. Around 1980, entomologists thought that they might have one, and now everyone agrees that they do have a clotting mechanism, though somewhat less "derived' than ours. Of course, that doesn't mean that they have a system similar to ours, but the other way around. A more complex mechanism is not necessary, because there is much less pressure brought to bear on the hemolymph (a seriously wounded insect tends to leak, not spurt), and as I mentioned, I have not seen more than a slight, if any leakage from an amputated insect limb, whereas the same injury in a mammal would be fatal..


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## Morpheus uk (Oct 18, 2010)

I heard it from a reliable sourse (Rob Byatt). Phasmids are just as good pets as mantids, only difference is that they dont kill their prey which shouldnt make a difference. I've had mismoulted insects before now that have damaged their limbs but not at the joint, they didnt drop their limbs but where bleeding everywhere and within hours died.


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