# Any way to stop the black eyes of death?



## brancsikia339 (Apr 26, 2012)

Whenever a mantis is near death, its eyes seem to turn black. My male H. majuscula, still a young male, was having a hard time getting his food (apparently even though his food was in there) so in about 2 weeks his eyes had turned black and he was dying. He had his food and he could see it, but he wouldn't eat it. Is there anyway to stop the black eyes of death?


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## petoly (Apr 26, 2012)

Take a small roach, snap it so some of its juices come out, hold the roach with tongs, gently touch the juicy part of the roach to your mantid's mouth, your mantis should start munching and should pick the roach up by itself


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## brancsikia339 (Apr 26, 2012)

petoly said:


> Take a small roach, snap it so some of its juices come out, hold the roach with tongs, gently touch the juicy part of the roach to your mantid's mouth, your mantis should start munching and should pick the roach up by itself


did that with 3 different food items. Nothing is happening


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## petoly (Apr 26, 2012)

Is the mantis swatting at it?


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## Mantiskid (Apr 26, 2012)

Oh no! Lydia's eyes are starting to get like that...


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## Krissim Klaw (Apr 26, 2012)

Black eyes of death? I have never once had a mantises eyes turn black pre death (minus color changes in the dark). In fact, it tends to take 12-24hours after my mantises have passed for their eyes to go bad and turn pitch black.

Is there any chance you could snap some photos if he is still alive or next time this occurs since it sounds by your post you have possibly experience this more than once? I know sometimes mantises get eye rub spots, and some believe they can get eye spot damage from overly hot of lights, but neither of these believed problems usually make it so the mantis cannout catch prey or cause premature death.

I have also seen some users mention a rather dramatic infection (not sure if that is the proper technical term) where a black spot will errupt and cover an eye but it usually keeps spreading out and consumings even more than the eye droping the mantis pretty fast. This wouldn't be considered normal though but a pretty rare occurance.


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## happy1892 (Apr 26, 2012)

Mantiskid said:


> Oh no! Lydia's eyes are starting to get like that...


You know when it gets dark mantids change their eye color right?


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## mkayum (Apr 26, 2012)

What temps was you keeping him in?


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## Precarious (Apr 26, 2012)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Black eyes of death? I have never once had a mantises eyes turn black pre death (minus color changes in the dark). In fact, it tends to take 12-24hours after my mantises have passed for their eyes to go bad and turn pitch black.


I'm with Krissim Klaw on this. Not sure why this would be happening to you and no one else.


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## brancsikia339 (Apr 26, 2012)

It always happens. He just died so there. It happened to every single one of my mantids. First: Eyes have black spots like this picture:




Second: They stop moving their arms. Third: They die.

Picture belongs to Mantispets.com


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## Krissim Klaw (Apr 26, 2012)

Can you give us any specifics on your cage set up/practices? What type of lighting, humidity, and so on. Also does this only occur with one species or have you had it happen with different species? Do you have an estimate on how many mantises over all you have lost this way? Are they always adults or have you also lost nymphs this way?


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## mkayum (Apr 26, 2012)

brancsikia339 said:


> It always happens. He just died so there. It happened to every single one of my mantids. First: Eyes have black spots like this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember reading somewhere on thead of Carey's. Here's a link http://mantidforum.n...l=&amp;fromsearch=1

It died of old age but it had black spreading to it's eyes because of rubbing against the plastic deli cup. I'm not sure.


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## Krissim Klaw (Apr 26, 2012)

mkayum said:


> I remember reading somewhere on thead of Carey's. Here's a link http://mantidforum.n...l=&amp;fromsearch=1
> 
> It died of old age but it had black spreading to it's eyes because of rubbing against the plastic deli cup. I'm not sure.


I think it is also important to note that the black spots on that mantis did not hinder its eye sight or cause premature death that brancsikia seems to be experiencing.


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## Rick (Apr 27, 2012)

I've had that happen. Some people think it's from rubbing on the enclosure but I don't agree with that.


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## happy1892 (Apr 27, 2012)

Rick said:


> I've had that happen. Some people think it's from rubbing on the enclosure but I don't agree with that.


My adult female Stagmomantis carolina rubbed her eyes on the plastic a whole lot when I caught her. Soon she had a black dot on each of her eyes. I have never seen a wild mantis have those black dots. And it seems like only the ones that rub their eyes on plastic get the black spots (I do not know if anybody else has a mantis that did not rub its eyes and get the black dots except this). And I have heard that larger mantids get the black spots on their eyes often.One of my sub-adult male Sphodromantis sp. "Blue Flash" died like this. He suddenly had a bug black dot on each eye and brown around it at night. He stopped moving and died. I have him in the freezer. I will take a picture of him later. I am going to a friends house about 3 hours drive away. I am coming back tomorrow. Bye.


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## brancsikia339 (Apr 27, 2012)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Can you give us any specifics on your cage set up/practices? What type of lighting, humidity, and so on. Also does this only occur with one species or have you had it happen with different species? Do you have an estimate on how many mantises over all you have lost this way? Are they always adults or have you also lost nymphs this way?


temporarily he was in a large cricket keep, but mainly he was in a net cage. It normally happens to me with the large mantid species.


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## happy1892 (Apr 28, 2012)

brancsikia339 said:


> temporarily he was in a large cricket keep, but mainly he was in a net cage. It normally happens to me with the large mantid species.


How many times has it happened to you?


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## brancsikia339 (Apr 29, 2012)

happy1892 said:


> How many times has it happened to you?


2 to 3 times


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## happy1892 (Apr 29, 2012)

He used to have black in the middle, now it is brown with dark brown around it.


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## sinensispsyched (Apr 30, 2012)

Wow, that's scary! I have two sub blue flash males right now!


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## rs4guy (May 1, 2012)

Rick said:


> I've had that happen. Some people think it's from rubbing on the enclosure but I don't agree with that.


I have a strong inkling it has to do with lighting. I use CFL light bulbs and the 2 mantids (BF and Linoela males) closest to the light have a cataract style blotch on its eyes.


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## PhilinYuma (May 2, 2012)

We're going wild here, folks! What is a "cataract style blotch"? A cataract is a white opacity that develops on the lenses of vertebrate eyes. In humans, it is associated with age rather than light. but, of course, the two main mantis eyes are composed of conical ommantidia -- take a look here for an interesting article: http://jeb.biologists.org/content/80/1/165.full.pdf

The black spots that someone else reports are called pseudo pupils and look like black dots that move over the eye according to the observers viewpoint.. They are also mentioned in that article.

It occurs to me that the article cited above may be a bit hard for some of our younger members. Don't despair! Look up "ommantidia" in Wiki and go on to the other topics, like "pseudo pupil", listed there.


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## happy1892 (May 2, 2012)

PhilinYuma said:


> We're going wild here, folks! What is a "cataract style blotch"? A cataract is a white opacity that develops on the lenses of vertebrate eyes. In humans, it is associated with age rather than light. but, of course, the two main mantis eyes are composed of conical ommantidia -- take a look here for an interesting article: http://jeb.biologist.../1/165.full.pdf
> 
> The black spots that someone else reports are called pseudo pupils and look like black dots that move over the eye according to the observers viewpoint.. They are also mentioned in that article.
> 
> It occurs to me that the article cited above may be a bit hard for some of our younger members. Don't despair! Look up "ommantidia" in Wiki and go on to the other topics, like "pseudo pupil", listed there.


Those two black spots are strange but this is not that. It stays in the same place and sometimes it is not round. And the white part here is a reflection.http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w440/Happy1892/Sphodromantis%20sp%20%20Blue%20Flash/Nymphs/SAM_7462.jpg


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## rs4guy (May 2, 2012)

Yea Yuma, not at all what I was talking about. I obviously know its not actual cataracts, just sort of looks like it. I attribute it to the CFL lighting as I previously mentioned.


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## PhilinYuma (May 2, 2012)

rs4guy said:


> Yea Yuma, not at all what I was talking about. I obviously know its not actual cataracts, just sort of looks like it. I attribute it to the CFL lighting as I previously mentioned.


Forgive me, Guy, but i know no such thing. It is well known that CFLs produce UV light and that cataracts can be caused by UV light, so it should not be surprising that I made such a connection.

So what do you believe is the connection between your affected mantids and the CFL? I am aware that there is no health risk to humans from CFLs and found this: "A human would have to be surrounded by thousands of ALZO full spectrum bulbs for many hours to receive the equivalent concentration of harmful UVB radiation of a few minutes of midday sunshin" at http://www.alzodigit...o_cfl_bulbs.htm.

So what is the scientific basis of your hypothesis, or do you believe that one person's guess is as good as another's? If the former, you would have avoided some mild confusion by giving the scientific basis for what has to be a most original observbation. I shall be interested to hear your explanation.


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## Krissim Klaw (May 2, 2012)

rs4guy said:


> I have a strong inkling it has to do with lighting. I use CFL light bulbs and the 2 mantids (BF and Linoela males) closest to the light have a cataract style blotch on its eyes.


I've had spots do to eye rubbing. It occured in under a day. It happened with two of my Chinese mantises during a 7 hour car ride. I had gotten a cute metal screen cage to use for travel that was a touch smaller than the net cages I usually used. I also liked it because it was firm so no risk of collapsing if I crammed it into random places. The first time it happened I thought it was strange it occured so quickly but Chinese are very active and the stimulation of a car ride is enough to get them trying to move about and head butting the screen. It took it happening a second time for me to slap myself on the head and realize the metal screen was exacerbating things since I had never had a problem with eyespots appearing during similar trips when using the net screen cages. Went back to my net cages and haven't had a problem sense.I wouldn't be surprised if there are more than one way eye damage can be done. I should note on my cases of eye rubbing the spots were more of a dark brown. They didn't grow either once the mantises were returned to their usual cages. They were mild so not sure if they would have turned a deep black if the rubbing was extreme and over a longer period.


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## PhilinYuma (May 3, 2012)

Yeah, the car-ride injuries make sense, especially if they banged their eyes against the mesh when the car hit a bump or a rough patch Are you a steady driver, KK?


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## rs4guy (May 3, 2012)

No scientific data, just an inkling, BUT these are not humans, so until you can dig up an article about mantids vs CFLs, your point is also moot. Being that CFL's are also relatively new, I will take that data lightly. Espestos was harmless too for a long time if you remember. I feel the 2 are connected, and am going to try out a CFL at close range vs a traditional bulb in the same position.


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## Krissim Klaw (May 3, 2012)

PhilinYuma said:


> Yeah, the car-ride injuries make sense, especially if they banged their eyes against the mesh when the car hit a bump or a rough patch Are you a steady driver, KK?


I wasn't the one driving during those trips. :scooter: I can see how Chinese mantises both caged and wild however can manage to ding their eyes up. They are a very head first type of bug. If something is in their way, they head butt it. I thought it was standard mantis practice, but I've noticed a lot of the other species I've tried are far less likely to use their heads as battering rams.


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## sinensispsyched (May 3, 2012)

Some species throw their head in right after their claws after catching an insect. I have seen it in Chinese and BF mantises.


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## happy1892 (May 6, 2012)

My Stagmomantis carolina get black dots on their eyes (only a few of them got the black dots and those where the ones I have seen rubbing against the plastic because they were scared) even though I put them in a book shelf where it is dark, they were in a small 32oz container and did not have those dots.


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