# whose against air travel here?



## nympho

Hi. I would never use air travel, and never have as its an unnessessary major contributor to global warming. About time plane travel for the common herd was banned as it probably will be one day soon, when governments stop pandering to the brainless majority. Foreign holidays using air travel are totally unnessessary ego trips, soon over and forgotten, leaving damage done forever, and people who have them should be ashamed. Also against car travel. Most trips of 5 miles or less can easily be done on bike.

Just wondering who else shares my view; or doesn't. :wink:


----------



## infinity

Hmmm, difficult to respond here without being despised by you (as I travel LOTS) or without sounding critical - but i'll try my best...

My family are HUGE travellers - my parents left the country about 22 times last year (I less so because of uni) - but I am 100% for travelling. Who wants to spend their life in the same place?! - If you believe in god, then believe that he made a whole world and it would almost be an insult on him to not explore it and appreciate it.

On the pollution topic- yeah, it's wrong but the world has survived global warmings and ice ages many times over and recovered! - If man dies out due to that, the world will recover.

I for one would prefer to travel to the rainforests of Brazil/ Borneo to find these mantids rather than sit infront of a computer chatting about them or having them brought to me 8)

Tried my best, sorry if I offended anyone


----------



## ellroy

I'm torn on this one.....obviously I'm not walking to Borneo! I appreciate how much of a devastating impact air travel has on the state of the planet and I'm sure it will come to a point where the low budget airlines, which fly backwards and forwards all day, will be strictly controlled. Actually....I hope that happens soon,

Alan


----------



## Rick

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. I'm not going to try and argue my point as I don't like to debate these kind of topics. I will say that I think you're being a bit ridiculous.


----------



## nympho

> If you believe in god, then believe that he made a whole world and it would almost be an insult on him to not explore it and appreciate it.On the pollution topic- yeah, it's wrong but the world has survived global warmings and ice ages many times over and recovered! - If man dies out due to that, the world will recover.


Maybe god would be quite pissed off if we destroyed his precious planet by being greedy and thinking of our own gratification.

Its a moot point though as I don't believe in god. lol

Sure the planet will recover. It may be hard to live on for along time though; not for us of course but will effect 10's of billions of people in the future (theres a lot of future).


----------



## infinity

If God would have really cared about air pollution, man would have been born with wings  

I just think it's a great world and as the rainforests are being cut down, species are dying out, architecture is getting replaced by the modern junk and all races are gradually being enveloped by america (so culture is dying out) - we should see what we can while it's here.


----------



## nympho

Dont you feel uncomfortable adding significantly to the weight of carbon emmissions just for trivial entertainment? I could understand if it was a life or death situation but no-one ever died from not having a foriegn holiday.

I suppose there just isnt a social stigma about air travel yet that it deserves so people still feel comfortable doing it. but shame on you anyway :wink:

Its one of problems with democracy that sometimes people need to be told what to do rather than waiting for public opinion to change. It will be too late then.


----------



## infinity

Well, adding to emissions is part of commuting... I did a little research (if you want sources, feel free to ask) - and it turns out the average american does ~29 miles per day... multiply this by a year and you get around 10 000

Now, putting that into Kgs of Co2 using this website:

http://www.nef.org.uk/energyadvice/co2calculator.htm

we get about 3.5 tons of CO2 per american per year...

Now lets say that the average american (which is untrue as only around 10-20% have passports) travels twice to england each year - that works out to be 5000 one way = 20000 round trip - this is being very generous!

This works out to be around 6 tons.

HOWEVER!!! People forget that planes are the equivalent of carpools... so 300 people share this load... plus- if we DID take into consideration that only 1/5 people travel- you see that americans in their cars are way more problematic than people in planes...

So if you ask me, america should use bicycles more rather than worry about planes  

Further proof on the bicyle statement: (sorry  )

http://health.msn.com/reports/obesity/default.aspx?GT1=8307

References:

http://www.nef.org.uk/energyadvice/co2emissionsctry.htm

http://www.nef.org.uk/energyadvice/co2calculator.htm

http://www.ridetowork.org/docs/2005trans_facts.html


----------



## infinity

p.s. sorry for using america- I did so just because they are the world's biggest supernation and a pretty good reference / example for the statements


----------



## bruty2fruity

> If you believe in god, then believe that he made a whole world and it would almost be an insult on him to not explore it and appreciate it.On the pollution topic- yeah, it's wrong but the world has survived global warmings and ice ages many times over and recovered! - If man dies out due to that, the world will recover.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe god would be quite pissed off if we destroyed his precious planet by being greedy and thinking of our own gratification.
> 
> Its a moot point though as I don't believe in god. lol
> 
> Sure the planet will recover. It may be hard to live on for along time though; not for us of course but will effect 10's of billions of people in the future (theres a lot of future).
Click to expand...

its nots just planes and cars that due damage is a huge mix of everything. id bet that during the ages of using steam engines/coal forenergy we were creating far more pollution - this issue of pollution has been around since the victorian times. also why the heck would you wish to stay in england all ur life?


----------



## nympho

This is quite a pathetic attitude actually. i'm not sure theres any hope lol

I'm not saying cars don't produce more co2 than airplanes, they undoubtedly do, as does other things like producing electricity in power stations. These things, of course do not carry the same weight in terms of necessity.

The point is, which I'm sure you understand really, is that air travel for holiday destinations, (which lets face it is why the general population use aircraft in the uk) is a CONSIDERABLE producer of excess co2 emissions, which is totally unnecessary for peoples actual survival. It is a luxury usage; vanity, which could easily be banned with no real loss of comfort to anybody. I don't actually agree with banning things, but people (even, bizarrely, nature lovers like you!?), left to their own devices won't even do a minor thing like not taking a foreign holiday, even when the writings on the wall.

On the car topic, at least half of car journeys are people 'nipping into town for a few things' i.e., 5 miles or less, which considering a car engine is not efficient when cold , when the mpg is much less than normal temperature, would be best done by bicycle.

If we could do these simple things we could save considerable co2 from going into the atmosphere with no loss of standard of living and greater fitness for everyone, nicer, safer roads for cyclists, and a quiet sky. The savings would also mean we wouldn't need stupid, ugly wind-farms everywhere!

How can anyone argue against that?


----------



## robo mantis

well my point is we need planes to travel to other countries


----------



## nympho

but you don't need to travel to other countries!

If you had a business meeting, or want to see relatives, use video conferencing, and taking foreign holidays is an obscenely stupid idea with diminishing oil supplies and global warming. Goods (with the possible exception of mantids!) should be transported by sea; so what if they take longer.


----------



## Ian

Sorry, I get sea sick  

If, for example, I had a dying relative or a funeral overseas, how would I go abouts taking the trip over? Of course, a hot air balloon IS an option.


----------



## infinity

I think the real questions here are:

Do YOU refrain from using cars etc when they're not necessary?

and more importantly: What chance do you think you have of converting the planet - A few hundred, even a thousand or a million people are not going to make a significant difference if they stopped using cars etc...

Go with the flow man!..  

(I'm taking the pessimistic view that if I don't drive, someone else will tomorrow and make up for it!)

- Same thing to all those vegetarians out there! - You're not saving cows by not eating that steak in the shop... Most is thrown away for not being eaten anyway!


----------



## bruty2fruity

thats insane the whole idea of life is to fill it with as many wondefull things as possible...going on holiday allows for many a memory to be created. going by boat would ruin hat. imagine 4 days on a boat - you would be causeing more polution and it would be far more expensive...


----------



## robo mantis

nympho did you hit your head on something lol


----------



## nympho

he he you Americans, always have the finger on the pulse of environmental affairs. oh well, we shall have to agree to disagree !

The 'tipping point' will probably not happen in our lifetime anyway. Well probably not in mine, can't say for sure about you youngsters lol

I'm sure your children and of course millions of people living close to sea level will understand your uncontrollable urge to explore the world.


----------



## 13ollox

apparantly a big meteor gonna hit us in 30 years . were all doomed


----------



## chun

Banning air travel will probably deifnitely slow down further Global Warming to a certain extent, but Global temperature has been fluctuating frequently over the course of three million years, with these changes brought about by earth's natural processes such as solar radiation, volcanic eruptions, earth's orbital variation etc, The presence of gases, moisture and particulate matters determines the passage of radiations from the sun when it reaches the earth's surface. Greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, sulphur dioxide and water vapour allow solar radiation to pass reach the earth's surface but they are also particularly good at absorbing reflected outgoing terrestrial infra red radiation, resulting in a greenhouse effect leading to an increase in earth's temperature. This greenhouse effect is essential for our present biodiversity, without it global temperature is said to be 30 oC colder than present temperature.

During the last 160,000 years, the concentrations of carbon dioxide and methane in the atmosphere have been fluctuating as low as 180ppmv to 300ppmv for carbon dioxide, whilst concentration of methane varied between 0.3ppmv and 0.7ppmv. Over the last 200 years, the concentration of carbon dioxide increased to over 360ppmv and methane concentration to over 1.7mmpv. The natural sources of carbon dioxide are from terrestrial biosphere and the oceans, whilst fresh water lakes and oceans are the natural sources of natural methane. During the last two hundred years, several industrial revolutions have taken place with the world's population increasing and a greater demand for more energy. This demand has led to a greater consumption of energy; therefore more fossil fuels were burnt in order to meet the increasing demand, increasing the emissions of carbon dioxide. Other factors such as increasing cement production, land use modifications (deforestations) and derived human sources have contributed to the increase carbon dioxide concentration over the past 200 years. The human population has increased dramatically, resulting in more sewage production and the need for more landfill sites. The need for more food has led to an increase in waterlogged rice paddies in particular South East Asia, and pastoral agriculture resulting in a dramatic increase in methane concentration in the atmosphere over such a short period of time.

Other greenhouse gases such as nitrous oxide and chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) also contribute to global warming. Nitrous oxide produced from combustion of hydrocarbon fuels, ammonia based fertilisers, deforestation and biomass burning absorbs the infrared radiation. The concentration of nitrous oxide has increased from 275ppbv in the pre industrial time to 311ppbv in 1992. CFCs, even though there is only a small trace of it in the atmosphere in comparison to the other greenhouse gases, it is a very strong greenhouse gas even in small amount. The emission of CFCs increased very rapidly in the recent decade due to refrigerants, foam making, fire control agents and propellants in aerosol cans. CFCs have also caused ozone depletion contributing to the greenhouse effect.

So if you are against air travel, you ought to be against eating agricultural products if you are so concern about global warming as methane is a much more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. your existance is harming the environment as you are putting pressure on farmers to produce enough food to feed you. You sitting there, typing away and browsing this forum is unneccesary selfish "trivial entertainment" by using the electricity produced from emitting tonnes of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. There is only so much you can do for the environment right now, and slowly down the rates of deforestation and encouraging afforestation is probably our priority. Because what ever you do in this modern technoological age, you are harming the environment.

This is somewhat off topic but the United Kingdom is a developed country with quite a strong economy with low rates of poverty and people suffering from diseases and hunger, it is very hard to persuade a person from a less economically developed country to not use cars, airplanes and cutting down the forest for agriculture or selling them as hardwood. Try persuading them to be extremely eco friendly by not harming the environment at all, and to give this up for their livelihood and family. They will most likely give you the finger. It is VERY VERY hard to "prevent" global warming, as the majority of the world's population still live in "undeveloped" countries.

"I don't actually agree with banning things, but people (even, bizarrely, nature lovers like you!?), left to their own devices won't even do a minor thing like not taking a foreign holiday, even when the writings on the wall." To be honest, you cant enjoy nature in the comfort of your sofa or living room. There is only so much "nature" you can experience in UK (and in my opinion, i will probably kill myself if i had to stay in this country for my entire life). Surely by actually seeing "nature" in person yourselve in another country, you will appreciate and respect mother earth far more than staying in your own country and being completely ignorant to what is going on globally.

"About time plane travel for the common herd was banned as it probably will be one day soon, when governments stop pandering to the brainless majority"

By not travelling you are being the brainless minority being "pandered" by the media, as you will remain ignorant for the rest of your life. Sometimes you've got to see or experience some things in person to fully appreciate it.

"If you had a business meeting, or want to see relatives, use video conferencing"

I presume you dont have close relatives abroad. Many apologies if i am wrong.

I hope you dont take this too personally, i appreciate your notion behind saving the environment (and somewhat respect you if you practise what you preach), but it is rather ignorant.

Best regards

Chun


----------



## Jwonni

only read the opening post and dont intend to read the others

I have never been on a plane but i intend to many times in the future

yeah sure on my holid.... erm "ego trip"


----------



## nympho

> Banning air travel will probably definitely slow down further Global Warming to a certain extent


thanks chun, a thoughtful post, you raise some important points which of course i am familiar. I agree with what your saying. Like you I wasn't saying its the total solution but if we can't get rid of this one very damaging and yet fairly trivial thing then theres no chance of putting right other problems like agriculture that are more fundamental to peoples lives. Its one thing that can be changed. Its all about making people realize its their personal lifestyle/ their mindset thats got to alter, and fast. You mention the third world, well theres no chance they are going to listen to us about sustainability if they see us carry on like we do.

And you mention my lifestyle. Ive taken the most important step for the sake of everyone and the future. The root cause for all our problems. That is of course not producing any more 'units of consumption', i.e. the decision not to breed another human being! A population halved would certainly address most human problems. I also dont drive and I live as frugally as possible; basically an ascetic lifestyle. Apart for killing myself I can't think of what else I could do myself in the current economic setup. I think I can safely say my conscience is clear and I have earned the right to criticize others for their conspicuous consumption.

I believe a personal carbon tax or allowance is in order, which will make people quickly realise how much carbon that conveinient trip to spain uses in relative comparison with everything else they do in their day to day lives. If they do choose to fly they would have to take carbon useage cuts elsewhere.

I also believe introduction in car mileage tax that could pay for 'bicycle miles', say a 30 pence per mile cycled or something, for local journeys anyway. This would get peoples lazy asses out of their metal coffins.lol

one last thing, I dont agree you have an absolute right or need to visit foreign relatives any more than I do. ever heard of the phone! lol Sorry for being flippant, but a metaphorical banging of heads together is needed about now lol


----------



## Johnald Chaffinch

i'm totally with nympho on this one.

air travel is a bad polluter yeah, but to put it in perspective these computers we're using now use a lot of electricity and that electricity often comes from fossil fuels. almost anything we do somehow contributes to the problem. some people not taking flights isnt going to do much for the situation, but yeah i guess it helps,

though really it's going to take much more drastic changes.

i'm looking forward to seeing that al gore film about global warming ( although i feel it will be political propoganda). i'm confused as to whether i should worry about such things or if it's part of governments hope and fear routine. but of course i'm glad people are bringing this up and hopefully we can slow the damage down.

i studied global warming for a bit at open university. sonething i think i can add to this is something called the anthropic principle if you use it regarding this situation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

i realised the other day that just because life has been evolving upto this point on this planet for almost 4 billion years doesnt make it unlikely that we're going to destroy it all soon ( even though it seems unlikely that it would because of the time scale and the events that have led upto this point).

the damage that we're causing to the Earth isnt like anything that's happened in the history of intelligent life here. things are kind of spiralling out of control because of corporations that we just mindlessly pay for our conveniences, when all they care about is money and will act like psychopaths to get more of it.

this planet will end up like venus if it tips the scale with the wrong type of gases or too extreme a temperature. all manner of things could mess this world up, we have to be careful.

i think there's only one important thing for us as humans to do and that's look after our planet, or all of our efforts will be in vain.

drastic changes need to be made in the way the world is going, i just hope we can do it in time.

i also better add that for the first time in about ten years i'll be using a plane this year, and i do feel bad for doing it


----------



## Rick

blah blah. This one is done.


----------

