# Mantis had a seizure?



## DonovanXFrancesca (Oct 9, 2019)

Hi. So I have what I believe to be a male Chinese mantis. He's an adult, likely near the end of his life span (he's wild caught). I've had him for maybe 2  weeks maximum. He's kept in a decently-sized enclosure with mesh lid that I rinse out weekly and daily empty poop/food remains.

Just a few moments ago, I looked in and he was violently shaking his whole body. Head twitching, foreclaws snapping and shaking, wings extending and closing, abdomen writhing. His eyes are also very dark, but it's very bright. Now he's unresponsive. His mouth was also "hanging" open, but it appears to be closed now. His foreclaws are spread wide. Can a mantis have a seizure? Is he dead/dying now? He hasn't assumed the "death" position and appears still to be looking at me with those odd mantis pupils.

If it makes any difference, I believe he was stepped on/attacked by something at some point in time, as he's missing a leg and his wings covers are a bit raggedy. He's very limp are his thorax is nearly hanging. Is there anything I can do for him? I know he's an old man (right around now is when mantids of my area die off) but I don't want him to suffer. Thoughts/advice?


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## DonovanXFrancesca (Oct 9, 2019)

Also, if I happen to see him seizing again, I will attempt to film it. I've also tried giving him water via a wet Q-tip but he's not doing anything... His name is King and he's my little man  Thank you for your help guys


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## DonovanXFrancesca (Oct 9, 2019)

Okay this is serious now because one of my other mantids is also acting up. Another adult male, presumably near the end of his life-cycle and caught at the same time, is also acting up?? He displayed randomly at nothing (not too weird...) But just a minute ago when I picked him up to move him to a different enclosure, he stretched his forelegs as far as he could and lowered himself to the skin of my hand with his mouth wide open. He seems not in control of his actions. King, the first one, is also responsive now with I try to move or touch him. But it's like he's half-paralyzed and can only move so much. Is this a disease? A parasite? Will this spread to and kill my females and last male?? I'm seriously worried because not only do I value these individuals, but also the offsprings from my female. Please help!! This isn't something that can wait a week for a reply .. this is urgent!


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## mantisfan101 (Oct 9, 2019)

Did you happen to spray any pesticides/chemicals or feed any wild caught insects? Did you or anyone else happen to spray any pesticides or chemicals around your house? This sounds like a case pf pesticide poisoning to me.


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## DonovanXFrancesca (Oct 9, 2019)

mantisfan101 said:


> Did you happen to spray any pesticides/chemicals or feed any wild caught insects? Did you or anyone else happen to spray any pesticides or chemicals around your house? This sounds like a case pf pesticide poisoning to me.


No, I haven't fed these two specifically any wild insects, only captive. I also don't recall any new chemicals in use... About a week ago there was a bathroom cleaner spray bottle in the same room for a few hours? It's been quite awhile tho, and it wasn't actually sprayed. They were both caught at my school tho, does that count for anything? I just got home so I'm going to go check on them right now. When I left King was flat on the ground, just about dead. Harry (the second) was very stiff with crossed forearms?


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## DonovanXFrancesca (Oct 9, 2019)

mantisfan101 said:


> Did you happen to spray any pesticides/chemicals or feed any wild caught insects? Did you or anyone else happen to spray any pesticides or chemicals around your house? This sounds like a case pf pesticide poisoning to me.


Okay so I just checked.... They're both flat on their backs in the death position, but still slightly alive. King is seizing again. Harry is holding onto a plant with his foreleg... I've attached a video of King seizing. I don't think this is rigor mortis(?) Because his eyes are still looking at me, and in my experience really dead mantids dont have the little pupils. None of my 3 other mantids seem to have any issue, just these two... 

View attachment 20191009_200417.mp4


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## hysteresis (Oct 9, 2019)

Chemicals need to be contact or aerosol. Having a bottle in a room without using it wont do a thing. I dont know what to say besides sorry.


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## DonovanXFrancesca (Oct 9, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> Chemicals need to be contact or aerosol. Having a bottle in a room without using it wont do a thing. I dont know what to say besides sorry.


Thank you.. could this possibly be disease? How can I keep it from spreading to my other mantids if it is? I'm going to separate King and Harry now (I expect they'll be completely dead in the morning..) and do lots of hand-washing between handlings, I guess. It just hurts how they look at you and you can do nothing to help  I suppose it's a comfort that they "don't feel pain".. but I imagine dying is not pleasant, especially when you're violently seizing all throughout. I'll cover them so hopefully the dark will calm then and they can pass a little more peacefully... Thank you for all your help guys. If you happen to have any ideas please do tell, even a slight explanation is nice


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## DonovanXFrancesca (Oct 10, 2019)

So I just want to update on this. It's been about 26 hours since the "deaths" of King and Harry, but they're not quite dead. They're both on their backs, legs crossed, but they still "look" at me. In my experience, a dead mantid's eyes will cloud over and you can't see the pupils within a few hours of death. This leads me to believe that whatever has affected them, it has to do with their nervous system. They seized violently, and now they have no control over their bodies. They're basically paralyzed, I think. 

Another thing I failed to remember was that I touched a wild mantis that was acting strangely yesterday before my boys acted up. It was a male Stagmomantis limbata, and he was very shaky and shuddery. I picked him up to move him away from some dangerous people, and moved on. I don't believe I washed my hands in the hour or so until I got home and was in the same room as my boys... But I didn't touch them. When I noticed King first losing it, I hadn't had any contact with any of my mantids. And after touching King, I had contact with 3 other mantids (all kept in the same room, within a foot of each other), one of which being Harry, who also started acting strangely just before I first touched him, although none of the others have any ill behavior as of now.

I would love input from anyone else, whether it be a hypothesis or experience on the topic. I feel like this is some sort of parasite from the way it's affected my mantids (and only 2 out of 5), but at the same time, with the addition of touching a strange wild mantis, it sounds like a disease. 

At the moment I'm avoiding having any contact with any of my healthy mantids to hopefully keep them safe, but it can't be like that forever, as I hand-feed them all. Thank you for anyone who bothers to read this long thread, and even more thank yous to those who give any sort of reply.


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## hysteresis (Oct 11, 2019)

I dont know what to say.  I haven't experienced quite that.


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## MantisGirl13 (Oct 12, 2019)

This sounds like fairly normal old age for males. I've had males twitch for days after death. 

- MantisGirl13


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## DonovanXFrancesca (Oct 12, 2019)

MantisGirl13 said:


> This sounds like fairly normal old age for males. I've had males twitch for days after death.
> 
> - MantisGirl13


But it to be this violent while they're still alive?


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## Synapze (Oct 12, 2019)

I would suggest euthanizing them especially if you suspect illness.


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## DonovanXFrancesca (Oct 12, 2019)

Synapze said:


> I would suggest euthanizing them especially if you suspect illness.


They're now "fully" dead, but how would I do that? For future reference.


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## Synapze (Oct 12, 2019)

Sorry you lost them.


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## Mantis Lady (Oct 14, 2019)

DonovanXFrancesca said:


> They're now "fully" dead, but how would I do that? For future reference. ﻿


Putting your sick/dying mantis in the freezer to end suffering.

Sorry for your loss. it is not fun seeing them suffering and there is nothing you can do for them.


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## Krissim Klaw (Oct 14, 2019)

DonovanXFrancesca said:


> But it to be this violent while they're still alive?


Yes, this is rather normal. Basically as their bodies shut down and they loose control of their limbs, which is why you can see fits of shaking intermittently. Some will even grab their heads/antennae. Some mantises go quicker than others. Boys tend to fade fast while girls can linger for several days. It can take a couple of days after death for their eyes to fully cloud. Just because the eye is clear doesn't mean the mantis is still alive, although I also make a point to wait to bury mine until after their eyes have clouded. Mantises don't control the black spot you see that seems to follow you. It is what is known as a pseudopupil. The black spot is the part in the compound eye that is absorbing the light from your perspective. Hence as you move or rotate the mantis it appears to shift.


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## DonovanXFrancesca (Oct 15, 2019)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Yes, this is rather normal. Basically as their bodies shut down and they loose control of their limbs, which is why you can see fits of shaking intermittently. Some will even grab their heads/antennae. Some mantises go quicker than others. Boys tend to fade fast while girls can linger for several days. It can take a couple of days after death for their eyes to fully cloud. Just because the eye is clear doesn't mean the mantis is still alive, although I also make a point to wait to bury mine until after their eyes have clouded. Mantises don't control the black spot you see that seems to follow you. It is what is known as a pseudopupil. The black spot is the part in the compound eye that is absorbing the light from your perspective. Hence as you move or rotate the mantis it appears to shift.


That's really interesting! Thank you so much for that info  It just feels wrong to bury a mantis while the pseudopupil is still visible... Feels like they're watching you. It's odd because it took about 48 hours for all big movement to cease. After that it was just slow, little movements I assume was rigor mortis. It's the opposite with me on how quickly mantids die. My females can go from fine to dead in 6 hours, clouded eyes and all, whereas males can take days. Although, I've kept many more females than males, and only of 2 species. 

What bothers me is this happened almost simultaneously. Everything was fine, no worries, no issues, happy and healthy boys .. then within a half an hour they were both freaking out. It's seems odd for them to die together... Very odd. Although, my 3 others are fine. My remaining male is actually taking interest in my unmated female, so maybe I'll help him get some this week lol. 

Slightly unrelated (should I make a new thread for these?): Do your males tend to eat significantly less than females? I understand they're smaller and aren't producing ooths, but my males won't even finish a whole mealworm. Like, the tiniest mealworm. They'll eat for 10 minutes, get maybe 1/3, and drop it. Odd? Females devour 3 larges in 10 minutes... My male Donovan would eat up to 8 houseflies in one sitting and get every last bite. But after his last shed, it's like food isn't an interest. Not worked about his health, just curious about your experiences everyone  

thanks everyone for your help!!


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## Mantis Lady (Oct 15, 2019)

DonovanXFrancesca said:


> Do your males tend to eat significantly less than females?


yes, they eat less. I have seen it in all my adult males I had. Females eat a lot because they need the energy to make ooths. They always lay ooths if they are mated or not.


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## DonovanXFrancesca (Oct 15, 2019)

Little Mantis said:


> yes, they eat less. I have seen it in all my adult males I had. Females eat a lot because they need the energy to make ooths. They always lay ooths if they are mated or not.


Cool! One last question. One of my females has sores on the front of her eyes... I figured it was from rubbing against the side of her enclosure, so I got a bigger one, but they're still there. Will they ever heal, or will they stay because she can't shed anymore?


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## Alimama (Oct 15, 2019)

So sorry to hear this. I am also going thru something similar and I am a total novice. My males also ate only parts of thrir crickets and much less than the females. From the commenters (experts) it sounds like they died of  old age. But being that I've been in the envrionmental health field, I cant help asking whether there were chemical sprays or lead removal at the location  where you found the two (maybe 3?) males? Is it unusual to see them at this location (ie could they have been out for some reason)?


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## DonovanXFrancesca (Oct 15, 2019)

Alimama said:


> So sorry to hear this. I am also going thru something similar and I am a total novice. My males also ate only parts of thrir crickets and much less than the females. From the commenters (experts) it sounds like they died of  old age. But being that I've been in the envrionmental health field, I cant help asking whether there were chemical sprays or lead removal at the location  where you found the two (maybe 3?) males? Is it unusual to see them at this location (ie could they have been out for some reason)?


Well it was at my school... Yknow, now that I think about it, I'm sure the school probably used pesticides. They definitely have rodent exterminators on campus often enough too . But .. quite a late reaction, really. You'd think poisoning would've happened quicker than 2 weeks later. I really just don't know. I'm going to assume it was spontaneous old age as all my others are fine. 

Also stay tuned tomorrow because I'm gonna breed Donovan and Francesca  second time I've ever need and she's much more aggressive than Honey was. Hopefully Donny keeps his head lmao


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## DonovanXFrancesca (Oct 17, 2019)

Update: Donovan and Francesca are in the act and have been for a few hours now. Francesca is kinda stressed out and on edge, so I'm hoping Donny can keep his head! Him and Honey were together for 25 hours so let's hope it's a bit shorter this time around lol. Goodnight everyone (on this side of the world ..)


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## Violentabyss (Oct 20, 2019)

DonovanXFrancesca said:


> They're now "fully" dead, but how would I do that? For future reference.


I've never had to euthanize a mantis but I am an insect taxidermist. 

You can freeze them, but the general technique is with gas. Get a small relatively airtight container and line it with paper towels. Moisten them with alcohol (rubbing alcohol, ethanol, isopropyl, or nail polish remover) and lay them in there. It's painless and peaceful, I'm not a bug but I'd rather die drifting off than freezing to death.

Taxidermy note, if you want to preserve them, you can float them in alcohol or leave them to dry in a position you like. It's not for everyone but personally it makes me feel better knowing my insect pets won't be eaten by ants.


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## Violentabyss (Oct 20, 2019)

MantisGirl13 said:


> This sounds like fairly normal old age for males. I've had males twitch for days after death.
> 
> - MantisGirl13


Obviously this is a whole different ball game but my cat of 21 years had seizures in the weeks before he was euthanized. Obviously he was an old man. I'm not sure if that means anything in terms of mantids but maybe it's neurological deterioration? Otherwise I would say the pesticide hypothesis is a good guess. If it is a parasite I think your best next action is to clean obsessively. Wash your hands, the old enclosures, the decor, anything that touched them. Sterilize any tweezers (or other communal tools) you used with a Clorox wipes or alcohol then water, or something of that ilk. Better safe than sorry!

Sorry for your losses


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## mantisfan101 (Oct 20, 2019)

The mantid's "pupil" will continue to watch and stare at you hours after its death. It's not really something that they can control, like our own pupils. I had a frozen, pinned specimen that continued to "stare"at me for an entire week after before its eyes just fogged over.


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## Rinnyleong (Oct 16, 2022)

Violentabyss said:


> Taxidermy note, leave them to dry in a position you like.


Hi there,
Is that means just leave it out in an open air to dry after freezing?
I need advice if there is a nice way to preserve a mantis without any cutting or operation process to their body?

My dear mantis dying probably due to old age  after reading most I took the advise putting her in freezer to “long sleep”
She is a Hierodula venosa . About 9+ month old

I got her from a bouquet (if not wrong) on 6 Jan. started on 12 Oct (few days ago) she barely move, not eating and not drinking, then the following days she is like dying stage moving less but at some point can see she still try to move but no strength at all. Can see her abdomen have breathing movement, it slow down day by day. Last night 14 Oct, there is some brown liquid keep coming out from her mouth 
Her current condition is the 2 little “tales” is moving a bit, and very weak breathing movement at the end of abdomen.

I got the advise nothing I can do and putting her in freezer to sleep is better let her be like that. Finally I Place her in freezer on yesterday 15 Oct 6pm after saying last good bye 

Was she actually already “passed away” few days ago even she actually try to move her legs and hands?

At some points she even tried to grab me with her claws


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## agent A (Oct 16, 2022)

Rinnyleong said:


> Hi there,
> Is that means just leave it out in an open air to dry after freezing?
> I need advice if there is a nice way to preserve a mantis without any chemicals process to their body?
> 
> ...


English isn't your first language, is it?


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## Rinnyleong (Oct 16, 2022)

agent A said:


> English isn't your first language, is it?


Ya, pardon my broken English , I speak Cantonese.


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## agent A (Oct 16, 2022)

Rinnyleong said:


> Ya, pardon my broken English , I speak Cantonese.


I will try to figure out what you're trying to ask in your post and anwer the best I can in the morning, but for now I must sleep


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## Rinnyleong (Oct 16, 2022)

By the way, she passed away in full stomach, can I still use the method soaking in 75% alcohol and drying in open air ? 
Sorry for many questions, 
Truly appreciated for all your advices


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## Dimity (Oct 16, 2022)

I'm sorry for the loss of your dear mantis. You want to preserve her body? For what purpose? To pin and display, or just to keep forever?


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## agent A (Oct 17, 2022)

Rinnyleong said:


> Hi there,
> Is that means just leave it out in an open air to dry after freezing?
> I need advice if there is a nice way to preserve a mantis without any cutting or operation process to their body?


I lyophilize the specimen. It's also possible to soak it in acetone for 24h before drying to try and preserve the color and reduce rot


Rinnyleong said:


> My dear mantis dying probably due to old age  after reading most I took the advise putting her in freezer to “long sleep”
> She is a Hierodula venosa . About 9+ month old


yes, that is old! Especially if you got her as an adult!!


Rinnyleong said:


> I got her from a bouquet (if not wrong) on 6 Jan. started on 12 Oct (few days ago) she barely move, not eating and not drinking, then the following days she is like dying stage moving less but at some point can see she still try to move but no strength at all. Can see her abdomen have breathing movement, it slow down day by day. Last night 14 Oct, there is some brown liquid keep coming out from her mouth
> Her current condition is the 2 little “tales” is moving a bit, and very weak breathing movement at the end of abdomen.


those "tails" are her cerci, sensory organs


Rinnyleong said:


> I got the advise nothing I can do and putting her in freezer to sleep is better let her be like that. Finally I Place her in freezer on yesterday 15 Oct 6pm after saying last good bye
> 
> Was she actually already “passed away” few days ago even she actually try to move her legs and hands?


I am not sure what you mean here. Did you see them moving on their own or only while handling her? it's possible the tarsi just hooked to things and got moved around?


Rinnyleong said:


> At some points she even tried to grab me with her claws


then she probably was still alive


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## Rinnyleong (Oct 17, 2022)

Dimity said:


> I'm sorry for the loss of your dear mantis. You want to preserve her body? For what purpose? To pin and display, or just to keep forever?


Thank you friend. 
I just want to keep forever, I hope I can keep her body around, but I don’t any pin display. Just the nature post is fine.
I wonder if there is a way without cutting the body like stomach


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## Rinnyleong (Oct 17, 2022)

agent A said:


> I lyophilize the specimen. It's also possible to soak it in acetone for 24h before drying to try and preserve the color and reduce rot


Hi Agent A
First of all thank you so much for all your time and advises.
Meaning to use acetone to soak the full body for 24hrs, then take it out to dry in open air room. Not needed to cut and remove the stuff in stomach?


agent A said:


> yes, that is old! Especially if you got her as an adult!!
> 
> those "tails" are her cerci, sensory organs


I found her on 6th Jan 2022, she was L2 if I’m not wrong.
I see, learn something new !



agent A said:


> I am not sure what you mean here. Did you see them moving on their own or only while handling her? it's possible the tarsi just hooked to things and got moved around?
> 
> then she probably was still alive


Pardon me, I mean about 20hrs before I place her in freezer (since 14 Oct), she no longer moving , only stay still at a place but she did try to lift up her legs and hand at some point , can still see her abdomen have minor breathing sign. I wonder At this stage is she already passed away ?

I saw her lift the leg and tabial but I’m not sure is that just twitching actually 
————————
How long can I leave it in the freezer? Is there a maximum time?
I can’t decide how I can handle her body yet ….


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## agent A (Oct 17, 2022)

Rinnyleong said:


> Hi Agent A
> First of all thank you so much for all your time and advises.
> Meaning to use acetone to soak the full body for 24hrs, then take it out to dry in open air room. Not needed to cut and remove the stuff in stomach?


yes on the acetone soak. I am not sure about cutting out the organs. I usually just lyophilize them. I wouldnt risk leaving organs in there though


Rinnyleong said:


> I found her on 6th Jan 2022, she was L2 if I’m not wrong.
> I see, learn something new !


ah ok. idk how quickly she reached adulthood but she was probably pretty old at death


Rinnyleong said:


> Pardon me, I mean about 20hrs before I place her in freezer (since 14 Oct), she no longer moving , only stay still at a place but she did try to lift up her legs and hand at some point , can still see her abdomen have minor breathing sign. I wonder At this stage is she already passed away ?


I doubt it


Rinnyleong said:


> I saw her lift the leg and tabial but I’m not sure is that just twitching actually
> ————————
> How long can I leave it in the freezer? Is there a maximum time?
> I can’t decide how I can handle her body yet ….


I'd leave her in there for at least 48h. if you have her in an airtight container, she can keep for a few years


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## Rinnyleong (Oct 18, 2022)

agent A said:


> ah ok. idk how quickly she reached adulthood but she was probably pretty old at death


She turned adult (last molt) is on 25 Apr.


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## Rinnyleong (Oct 18, 2022)

agent A said:


> yes on the acetone soak. I am not sure about cutting out the organs. I usually just lyophilize them. I wouldnt risk leaving organs in there though


The full process to lyophilize them is:
1. Keep in Freezer (more than 24 hours)
2. Soak in acetone for 24 hours
3. Take out and leave it open air room 
is that correct? sorry, if is stupid questions around , I have 0 idea about lyophilize / drying them. I did try to look up more details mainly I found is soak in alcohol or acetone for long hours. 
I wonder if that's enough to dry /lyophilize them.


*I wouldnt risk leaving organs in there though* = is that means you actually remove out the organ?
Or just the acetone soaking is good enough?

what is the different between using Acetone and alcohol to soak?


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## agent A (Oct 18, 2022)

Rinnyleong said:


> The full process to lyophilize them is:
> 1. Keep in Freezer (more than 24 hours)
> 2. Soak in acetone for 24 hours
> 3. Take out and leave it open air room
> ...


lyophilizing is just a fancy way of saying freeze-drying. OK technically you can freeze-dry without a vacuum pressure so then it wouldn't be called lyophilization
a big specimen like that, especially in your humid climate, may require a good 10-15 days to fully dry


Rinnyleong said:


> *I wouldnt risk leaving organs in there though* = is that means you actually remove out the organ?
> Or just the acetone soaking is good enough?
> 
> what is the different between using Acetone and alcohol to soak?


I'd remove them. it's about how much volume the abdomen has. if the abdomen is very very rotund, it may not dry out in the middle before the organs begin to rot. with a lyophilizer or any low-tech freeze-drying methods, this isn't a concern because the specimen stays frozen during the process
the main difference between alcohol and acetone is that acetone won't denature the color pigments of the organism
alcohol will. if you LEAVE the organism in the alcohol, you won't notice it, but as soon as it evaporates from the specimen, bye-bye color!


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## Rinnyleong (Nov 5, 2022)

agent A said:


> lyophilizing is just a fancy way of saying freeze-drying. OK technically you can freeze-dry without a vacuum pressure so then it wouldn't be called lyophilization
> a big specimen like that, especially in your humid climate, may require a good 10-15 days to fully dry


I see, ya I’m just placing it in freezer to freeze drying.


agent A said:


> I'd remove them. it's about how much volume the abdomen has. if the abdomen is very very rotund, it may not dry out in the middle before the organs begin to rot. with a lyophilizer or any low-tech freeze-drying methods, this isn't a concern because the specimen stays frozen during the process
> the main difference between alcohol and acetone is that acetone won't denature the color pigments of the organism
> alcohol will. if you LEAVE the organism in the alcohol, you won't notice it, but as soon as it evaporates from the specimen, bye-bye color!


understood, thats saying to remove the organ is a must process for me if I want to preserve it, correct? 
Soaking it in acetone won’t able to stop the organs rot? 

I definitely unable to handle doing any operation to my late mantis. i guess I will continue keeping her in freezer for the moment, until I can decide. it’s really hard for me to let go. 
agent A thank you for your information and time.


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