# Why aren't we captive breeding Idolomantis??



## Obie (Dec 11, 2005)

Ok, this question is mostly aimed at those who have some experience with this species. As we know I. diabolica is rarely successfully kept for multiple generations. Where do you guys think we are going wrong? Are we not properly matching their natural habitat? Are the nymphs just too fragile? If you have kept this species...I'm curious to hear your thoughts and how far you've gotten with them.

Thanks for any input, I've wondered about this for a long time!

Obie


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## Christian (Dec 11, 2005)

Hi.

I do not see a problem yet.

First, since the species is not kept for longer than 1 1/2 years, what do you expect? Experience must be gained first, as with every species.

Secondly, there are successful breeders. Some have reached the second captive generation (F2). I, for instance, have about 150-200 hatched young larvae at the moment. So, certainly, some people do something wrong. But, as most guys do not have them for more than a generation, noone can say that it cannot be bred successfully. Patience is needed, and several subsequent generations, before any conclusion can be drawn. If something goes wrong, the conditions must be changed. We had our losses too, as nothing was known about the conditions. Now, we still have not figured out everything. However, a caresheet is prepared at the moment, it will be, however, in German.

Regards,

Christian


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## Obie (Dec 11, 2005)

Thanks Christian! You are definitely one of those who seem to be having the most success. I hear a lot of stories of losses and I don't see why. It sounds like we are learning fast though. Anyone else have success stories?


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## Ian (Dec 11, 2005)

I have hatched about 2 ooths that were wild caught, but mainly I have reared from hatchlings (which were purhcased of Stephan; another successful breeder.)

I had had problems with infection, I think there was a post on it, but that is about it. So far, I have not reared any to adult hood, however, maybe the next batch I rear, I might give it a go.

Cheers,

Ian


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## Samzo (Dec 11, 2005)

I have not had much experience with these but doesn't infection mean too much humidity? Perhaps we are tying too hard, as people used to ysa how hard orchids are to keep but I have had no problems what so ever.


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## ibanez_freak (Dec 11, 2005)

Hi,

Well, I'm still raising mine. Bought it pretty young in October and is like L5 or so now I think. Pretty easy to look after I'd say but I don't know about you guys, but I don't have the money to buy enough for breeding them and even if I did, it's a bit of a gamble.

Cheers, Cameron.


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## jandl2204 (Dec 11, 2005)

*Right personally i do believe that idol cultures would be much more stable if they were fed insects which occur naturally within there original environment. Particular chemicals, minerals etc may not be available in captivity. Fruit flies, common house fly, curly wing and wax worms may not be suitable substitutes to provide a more that adequate diet thus leading to deaths, poor breeding and stress (stress in terms of that you suffer when you try to breed this species!!!) *

obviously tho we donot have access to such feeder food.

Regards Lee


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## Christian (Dec 12, 2005)

This approach cannot satisfactorily explain the different breeding successes. I fed mine with a lot of wild-caught insects during summer, but with the usual ones most of the remaining time. The ooths hatch pretty well. Unsuitable food usually leads to a lower hatch rate, so if the offered food was completely unsuitable, the ooth hatch rate should have been much lower. More important than Tansanian food is food of adequate size. It is obvious that a predator of such a size is not very content with blowflies only on every single day. This may be an important feeding, but not breeding problem.

Regards,

Christian


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## ellroy (Dec 12, 2005)

I've managed to raise mine to L7/L8 so far and they are still going strong. It does seem that moulting becomes more tricky after L6, but this is covered in another post.

I think the bottom line is like Christian says, they haven't been in culture for that long but we are learning as we go.

Cheers

Alan


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## Obie (Dec 12, 2005)

Thanks for all the replies guys  . I hope we can really establish I. diabolica in captivity. Its amazing how few mantids are routinely kept and bred, considering the number of amazing species out there...


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## Ian (Dec 12, 2005)

The thing that amazes me with the idoum, is that this year, there has been a baby boom!


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## Christian (Dec 12, 2005)

Hi.

That's not really true. There were indeed a lot of hatches, but mostly from imported ooths. Regarding this, there was also a baby boom of _Parasphendale, Tenodera, Idolomorpha_ and _Hoplocorypha_! This is no real *breeding* but rather *trading success*! :wink:

Regards,

Christian


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## Ian (Dec 12, 2005)

Oh right...didnt realise there was a boom on the other species...

Well, I suppose the trading success is not a bad thing  

Cheers,

Ian


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## Devils flower (Dec 12, 2005)

My idolomantis 'stock' for the moment:

L7 1/1

L4 2/2

The person I bought them from advised me to keep them at 24-27°C (=75-81F). Isn't this a bit too cold? He breeds them so he must know what he's talking about, although... (I'm keeping mine at 27°C now)

@Christian: bring on the Idolomantis caresheet, so few information on the net nowadays  

Cheerz,

Steven


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## Orin (Dec 12, 2005)

So how many here have personally kept Deroplatys desiccata for 3 generations? 5? 7?

--Consectutive successive generations without addition of any new stock or breeding material.


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## Obie (Dec 13, 2005)

> So how many here have personally kept Deroplatys desiccata for 3 generations? 5? 7? --Consectutive successive generations without addition of any new stock or breeding material.


Are you saying that inbreeding and a small gene pool will put limits on our captive breeding success Orin?

Thanks,

Obie


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## nympho (Dec 13, 2005)

The only real problem with Idolomantis is the L7moulting issue which I discovered in both mine last week. Problems, however dont get much worse! Other than that they seem easy, at least with the two I have. In diet they seem easy to please, mine eat the bluebottles caught from the garden even in winter on sunny days. They go to the top of the cage which makes feeding easy. Whether they can survive long term on these I dont know (moulting issue?). They dont even seem too agressive to each other (at least in canabilistic terms) so could presumably be kept together in a large cage, which simplifies rearing somewhat compared with other large mantids.

BTW is there a L8 stage? How big are they in the L7 and L8 instars as i'm not sure what mine are.


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## ellroy (Dec 13, 2005)

My L8 has obvious wing buds....I have posted some pics in this forum


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## nympho (Dec 13, 2005)

Hi Ellroy, I hadn't seen those. Its difficult to tell if they are older than mine from your pics, but they look much the same size. Mine are 39mm from base of abdomen to tip of the pointy thing on the head, and the shield on the thorax is 20mm across. Yours may be bigger if female.


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## Christian (Dec 13, 2005)

Hi.

@ Steven: may I know who told you to keep them at those temperatures? Maybe as a PM? The caresheet is in preparation, but, as it will contain also historical and behavioral information, it is still a lot of work to do. Some things will be described for the first time.

@Orin: I kept _D. desiccata_ for 4 generations, _Sibylla pretiosa_ for 5, and inbreeding was not a problem yet. Most people overconsider inbreeding, though. A degenerative inbreeding does not occur after a few generations. The problem is rather that males tend to avoid copulations with more and more closely related females. This can only be avoided or delayed by keeping your breeding stock at high numbers. Thus, introducing "new blood" simply means adding a new allele to the gene pool which may enhance the attractivity of the genders. And, of course, delay possible negative inbreeding effects.

Regards,

Christian


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## Orin (Dec 14, 2005)

> > So how many here have personally kept Deroplatys desiccata for 3 generations? 5? 7? --Consectutive successive generations without addition of any new stock or breeding material.
> 
> 
> Are you saying that inbreeding and a small gene pool will put limits on our captive breeding success Orin?
> ...


No, I was saying that most mantids have a shelf life of a few generations tops in the hobby. It's not genetic, it's that the hobby is small and mantids aren't easy like roaches. My example was trying to explain there aren't too many more people who have kept Deroplatys for multiple generations than idolomantis. D.d. is a huge, beautiful one that has been imported many, many times.

How many people still have their Otomantis going?

I understand in Europe they keep more species though nearly all of that is because they replenish their stocks easily from WC which doesn't mean the shelf life is any longer, just more product.


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## Christian (Dec 14, 2005)

> I understand in Europe they keep more species though nearly all of that is because they replenish their stocks easily from WC which doesn't mean the shelf life is any longer, just more product.


It's not as simple as this. There are some stocks for which WCs ar not longer available, or just very rarely. Nevertheless, some stocks are maintained for a long time. At the end it's a question of attention, of cooperation, of personal experience and of available place.

Secondly: The numbers of those guys willing to keep their stocks for a longer time is rather low. Most people want to succeed with a particular species and try others afterwards. That's why some species vanish one day if they are not very attractive. Noone can be the Arch of Noah for all species he has ever had. _Otomanti_s is a good example.

Regards,

Christian


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## Tapos (Dec 14, 2005)

could the breeders with knowledge list some of the do's and don'ts. i realise some trade secrets are hard to part with, but we amatures do buy from some of you, and even little hints may stop some of the obvious to you, but not obvious to us mistakes, we will make in raising ours for pets? even a care sheet in German would be helpful. i can find a translater if it would safe a dead pet.


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## Christian (Dec 15, 2005)

As said before, the Idolo caresheet is on the way. Regarding the advices, I use to give everyone who gets specimens from me the information necessary for successful breeding. This holds for every species. Every serious breeder usually proceeds like this.

Regards,

Christian


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## Orin (Dec 15, 2005)

> > I understand in Europe they keep more species though nearly all of that is because they replenish their stocks easily from WC which doesn't mean the shelf life is any longer, just more product.
> 
> 
> It's not as simple as this. There are some stocks for which WCs ar not longer available, or just very rarely. Nevertheless, some stocks are maintained for a long time. At the end it's a question of attention, of cooperation, of personal experience and of available place.
> ...


 I didn't say the Otomantis or Deroplatys were gone over here.


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## Christian (Dec 15, 2005)

Oh, there is still Otomantis in stock? That's good.


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