# are these the wingbuds of a presub????



## agent A (Dec 27, 2012)

is this orchid girl a presub???


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## deborato (Dec 27, 2012)

Subsub


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## Malakyoma (Dec 27, 2012)

That's what I was thinking. Too big for pre sub.


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## agent A (Dec 27, 2012)

deborato said:


> Subsub


I doubt a hymenopus female is subadult at L6! Lol


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## Mime454 (Dec 27, 2012)

It's presub.


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## gripen (Dec 27, 2012)

Does not look pre sub yet. The molt before. L7 is pre sub.


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## deborato (Dec 27, 2012)

She have to molt one more time and she will be adult.*

Edit: this is wrong.


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## gripen (Dec 27, 2012)

deborato said:


> She have to molt one more time and she will be adult.*


No she has at least 3 more moults.


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## lancaster1313 (Dec 27, 2012)

Looks like my girls' wingbuds, and I am almost certain that they are 6th instar. So would it be 2 more molts? 3 more molts would be something cool, but it would be a huge mantis?

I am assuming it is the instar right before subadult.

I have never seen an adult, only comparing what I researched and asked the breeder. The wingbuds seem to form like any other full length winged female mantid's wings?


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## deborato (Dec 27, 2012)

ooch... I think she have to molt 2 more times but evryone is just saying things and it's really confusing.


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## lancaster1313 (Dec 27, 2012)

I thought that I was sure, but am now quite confused. :/

EDIT: Putting some tape on my pretty cups so I can write the molting dates, from now on. lol

I write it with a Sharpie on scotch tape so I don't mark up the containers. Hate to ruin a good cup.


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## Mr. Hyde (Dec 28, 2012)

likebugs said:


> EDIT: Putting some tape on my pretty cups so I can write the molting dates, from now on. lol
> 
> I write it with a Sharpie on scotch tape so I don't mark up the containers. Hate to ruin a good cup.


We are marking it on a calendar.  but with only the two that is easy compared to somebody with several.


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## ismart (Dec 28, 2012)

They are pre-sub.


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## Termite48 (Dec 28, 2012)

Remember that the girls get an extra molt. They can get as long as 2-3/4" so if this one is about 1-1/4" stretched out, it is likely as Paul says. When did the green necklace appear? Any males from the same hatch, if not significantly slowed down could by now be adult as this female as in this stage. Am I right?


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## agent A (Dec 28, 2012)

I slowed the males so they r L5/6


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## lancaster1313 (Dec 28, 2012)

My whole problem with this type of topic are the words: "presub" and "subsub". I was taking them to mean the same thing, but some of the posts sound like it may be 2 different things.

I am pretty sure that "subadult" = next molt is final molt, in mantids anyway.

For a female _Hymenopus coronatus_, I was under the impression that it goes something like this:

1st instar = hatched (red and black, _Reduviidae_ "assassin bug" mimicry)

2nd instar = losing _Reduviidae_ characteristics and becoming more of a flower mimic.

3rd instar = Flower mimicry...

4th instar

5th instar

6th instar = the mantis in the topic? Presub. What is subsub, if not the same? Someone please clarify.

7th instar = subadult

8th instar = adult. If adult can be considered an instar?

They molt a total of 7 times?

Edited to add more detail to changes in appearance.


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## aNisip (Dec 28, 2012)

+1


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## sally (Dec 28, 2012)

so at what instar does the "green necklace" appear?


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## ismart (Dec 28, 2012)

likebugs said:


> My whole problem with this type of topic are the words: "presub" and "subsub". I was taking them to mean the same thing, but some of the posts sound like it may be 2 different things.
> 
> I am pretty sure that "subadult" = next molt is final molt, in mantids anyway.
> 
> ...


That's correct. Sorry for the confusion. I tend to forget what L stage pre-sub is.


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## ismart (Dec 28, 2012)

sally said:


> so at what instar does the "green necklace" appear?


It can be seen as early as L3. By L4 it's much more larger, and darker.


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## agent A (Dec 28, 2012)

sally said:


> so at what instar does the "green necklace" appear?


The necklaces start out as 2 brown dots then develop into bands


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## sally (Dec 30, 2012)

Thanks. Great thread for me, ( a beginner)


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## lancaster1313 (Jan 17, 2013)

One of my _Hymenopus coronatus _is finishing a molt to maybe 8th instar? She appears huge, but with no wings yet. Disregard anything I posted about instars!

I am truly confused! :blink: Perhaps I can't count?

Maybe I got my instars all mixed up or forgot one or something. :blush:


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