# What is up with S. californica!!!???



## MantidLord (Aug 10, 2012)

Can someone please tell me what is up with these guys? I've had too many deaths attributed to unknown causes and it's ruined my plans for breeding them. It seems like they're prone to some unknown illness that no amount of cleaning jars, substrate, structures, humidity, temperatures,, whatever, can cure.

It first started when I got a few free ones from ismart. At first, everything was going fine and they were growing. I lost maybe two to mismolts because they somehow fell during molting. So I decided to buy some more from yen (btw I'm not implicating ismart or yen for selling me a bad batch or anything like that, they were perfect when and for the longest after I got them) just in case something happened to the original ones I had from ismart. Good thing I did.

When I left for California for the summer, I had to ship all my mantids and unfortunately, I wasn't able to pack them so I instructed my roommate to pack them. He tried the best he could, and when the package arrived, my lone female from Ismart was doing good and so were the nymphs I got from yen. Soon after however, the female started acting sluggish and not grasping on to her sticks. She had lost (or chewed off) a leg prior to shipping and it seemed as if it had gotten infected. Her condition got worse and she started spending most of her time at the bottom of the cage and only grasping things with her two front legs in a death clutch. I even opened the jar one day to see her chewing on one of the sticks. Needless to say, she died. I chalked it up to her being stressed out from the travels and that causing some sort of infection to take place. At least I still had the younger ones from yen.

Wrong. Through a series of bizarre happenings and deaths that I don't even remember, I ended up with three males and one female. Now, one male had eaten a cricket the day before, (I hand fed it to him because it was too big to catch) and seemed to be doing fine. However the next day I looked in his jar, and he was on the ground dark brown and decrepit. Wasn't the crickets, they had been eating them their whole lives and I kept the crickets clean. Okay, still two males and one female.

The other male ended up dying in much the same way the female did a while ago. He appeared to be getting ready to molt (I wrote a thread about this when it happened) and he was constantly, and I mean constantly throwing the defense posture at anything that moved. As the day wore on, he lost the ability to climb and all he could do was throw the defense posture and cling on with his claws. He two eventually died.

Okay, down to one male and one female. I'm thinking "I can do this, I'm the MantidLord". The male molts to an adult successfully, doesn't die from that random "24 hour death after the final molt syndrome" that some mantids die from so everything was looking up, just have to raise the female. That proves to be freaking impossible. I fed her the day before yesterday and she was fine, she grabbed her prey and ate it, no problem. Let me backtrack, she had been eating fine all her life and maybe a week ago I noticed brown splotches on the side of her jar. I wasn't sure if it was from her (most likely) or crickets so I changed jars, put her in a fresh container with new and clean sticks for her. So everything is going smoothly, she's eating but not too much. Then today, I go to feed her and I see she's on the bottom of her container. But she seems find. I take her out, offer her the cricket, she doesn't want it. I see that her wing buds are *kind of *swollen so I toy with the idea that she's beginning her pre-molt fast and seeing that she's not really skinny, I put her back in her cage and leave her alone. Then a few (probably like 10 after typing all of this) minutes ago, I check up on her, she's on the ground again. I take her out the cage and she's doing the EXACT SAME THING the previous mantids did. Hanging on with only her claws and the rest of her body and legs dangling underneath her, like she's trying to pull herself up with just her arms. I put her on my floor for further inspection and she clutches the carpet and I had to struggle to get her off the floor. I gave her water, honey, changed jars again, and put paper towel at the top of her container and placed her on it to help her grip. But realistically it's not her grip, it's her. Right now she's hanging from the paper towel by her arms and two of her legs, but mainly her arms in a very awkward position with her head face down in the paper towel.

I'm not hopeful that she'll live. And this has been a very trying, time consuming and financial waste to try and breed such a cool species only to fail miserably when this is supposed to be taken care of like "typical" mantids. What I really want is some sort of answer as to what is wrong with them. Is it something I'm doing? Again, I've experiment with humidity and temperature, the food they eat is "clean" as are their containers. They just seem to deteriorate for no reason and it's very frustrating to see them die in front of my eyes with there be nothing I can do, especially because this is my only female and my male is waiting for her to molt to adulthood.

She's dead. I took her out and put her near my laptop to give her some heat. And she just laid there next to it. About 10 minutes later I check on her and she's gone. Smh, this sucks.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 10, 2012)

dont feel bad, same happened here. And I got ooths from Yen that never hatched too.


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## agent A (Aug 10, 2012)

i started off with 10

3 died soon

5 made it to L4

1 L4 died

the other 4 were 2 pairs

i sent a pair to massaman

i kept the last pair

i sent them to someone to watch while i was away

they molted and were fine but in shipment the male died, i found him black and crumpled up with a twisted head

the female is fine, but lonely for now

the nymphs seem to like high heat (i kept them under the bleph lamp) but my adult female is fine at room temp

i'm sure the 2 of us can work together to get our pair mated because they r a cool and charming species


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## ismart (Aug 10, 2012)

Wow! It saddens me you guys have had suck crappy luck.  MantidLord if your male is still alive? I still have two adult females. I could ship them to you if you want? One is green. The other is brown with messed up wings but other wise healthy. My two males just recently died of old age. I never bothered breeding them because i wanted to focus on other species for now. I even sent an adult female to Orin for his Bugfest. PM me if you want them?


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## agent A (Aug 10, 2012)

ismart said:


> Wow! It saddens me you guys have had suck crappy luck.  MantidLord if your male is still alive? I still have two adult females. I could ship them to you if you want? One is green. The other is brown with messed up wings but other wise healthy. My two males just recently died of old age. I never bothered breeding them because i wanted to focus on other species for now. I even sent an adult female to Orin for his Bugfest. PM me if you want them?


oh come on!! mantidlord and i were gonna work out something where he sends his male to me to breed with my female because my male died then i was gonna send him back an ooth


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## ismart (Aug 10, 2012)

agent A said:


> oh come on!! mantidlord and i were gonna work out something where he sends his male to me to breed with my female because my male died then i was gonna send him back an ooth


Ha Ha! You just got played son! :lol: I say you guys still continue your deal. Both my females are very old. If all else fails? Then either of you shoot me a PM. Just trying to help out.


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## agent A (Aug 10, 2012)

well i hope u have ooths cause i might have to buy nymphs from u soon

if u have any ooths and stuff of these guys u dont want pm me and we can trade or something


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## ismart (Aug 10, 2012)

agent A said:


> well i hope u have ooths cause i might have to buy nymphs from u soon
> 
> if u have any ooths and stuff of these guys u dont want pm me and we can trade or something


Nope! I have nothing. I never bred any of them. I was just going to discontinue them. If you, or mantidLord want my females they are yours. Just pay for shipping.


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## agent A (Aug 10, 2012)

ismart said:


> Nope! I have nothing. I never bred any of them. I was just going to discontinue them. If you, or mantidLord want my females they are yours. Just pay for shipping.


ok so this species is rare in culture, only like 4 peeps have them and u r not breeding them?


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## ismart (Aug 10, 2012)

agent A said:


> ok so this species is rare in culture, only like 4 peeps have them and u r not breeding them?


Yup! Well i did sell like 50-100 nymphs a few months back. There should be more then 4 people with them? I would have hoped someone else could carry the torch?


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## agent A (Aug 10, 2012)

ismart said:


> Yup! Well i did sell like 50-100 nymphs a few months back. There should be more then 4 people with them? I would have hoped someone else could carry the torch?


i tried to but only 4 made it to subadult and massaman got one of the 2 pairs and only 1 of his 2 gals mated

then my male died being shipped back from california &lt;_&lt;


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## ismart (Aug 10, 2012)

agent A said:


> i tried to but only 4 made it to subadult and massaman got one of the 2 pairs and only 1 of his 2 gals mated
> 
> then my male died being shipped back from california &lt;_&lt;



I don't want to hear your excuses! *MISSION FAILED!!! * :lol: No, but really these guys did prove to be the most difficult out of all the _Stagmomantis _species i have dealth with thus far. I could see how you guys were having so much trouble.


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## agent A (Aug 10, 2012)

ismart said:


> I don't want to hear your excuses! *MISSION FAILED!!! * :lol: No, but really these guys did prove to be the most difficult out of all the _Stagmomantis _species i have dealth with thus far. I could see how you guys were having so much trouble.


r they also smaller than the others?

and i'm kinda mad cause massaman paid me for the stuff i sent him with a check i can't cash until i'm older and i kinda misplaced it


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## Krissim Klaw (Aug 10, 2012)

I've never tried the species but perhaps they would do better in a cage with more ventilation like one of the net cubes versus a jar? They get a decent size so they could use the room.


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## agent A (Aug 10, 2012)

Krissim Klaw said:


> I've never tried the species but perhaps they would do better in a cage with more ventilation like one of the net cubes versus a jar? They get a decent size so they could use the room.


my female molted to adult in a 32oz cup just fine


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## Krissim Klaw (Aug 10, 2012)

agent A said:


> my female molted to adult in a 32oz cup just fine


Did you only have 1 female then?


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## agent A (Aug 10, 2012)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Did you only have 1 female then?


yes


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## ismart (Aug 10, 2012)

Yes, Californicas are the smallest of or the three common Stagmomantis sp. There are always exceptions. I have had carolinas that were smaller than californicas, and limbatas smaller than carolinas. Wait?! What? :huh: 

Why don't you have your mom cash it for you if you ever find it?


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## agent A (Aug 10, 2012)

ismart said:


> Yes, Californicas are the smallest of or the three common Stagmomantis sp. There are always exceptions. I have had carolinas that were smaller than californicas, and limbatas smaller than carolinas. Wait?! What? :huh:
> 
> Why don't you have your mom cash it for you if you ever find it?


ok i will lol

i think limbata r the largest

dont u love the orange in the carolina forelegs??


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## Krissim Klaw (Aug 10, 2012)

agent A said:


> yes


Ahh sorry, I thought in a previous post you mentioned a number of yours also passing. I must have read it wrong.


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## ismart (Aug 10, 2012)

Krissim Klaw said:


> I've never tried the species but perhaps they would do better in a cage with more ventilation like one of the net cubes versus a jar? They get a decent size so they could use the room.


When my ooths first hatched i had placed them all in net cubes. They did well in these till about L4. I then sold most of them, and the few remaining were put in 32oz cups. I'm sure older nymphs, and adults would do just fine in net cubes.


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## agent A (Aug 10, 2012)

they like it DRY!!!


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## Krissim Klaw (Aug 10, 2012)

ismart said:


> When my ooths first hatched i had placed them all in net cubes. They did well in these till about L4. I then sold most of them, and the few remaining were put in 32oz cups. I'm sure older nymphs, and adults would do just fine in net cubes.


Thank you for the input. I must admit I am a pretty big fan of the net cubes. A lot of space for the price and they are easy to stack and move around. I like how easy they are for most species to hang on. Admittedly, I have no experience with the deli cups since I've never used them outside of my fruitfly cultures.


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## MantidLord (Aug 10, 2012)

I wish I would've woken up earlier and read this.

Thanks for the offer ismart, you're awesome man. Had I known about them earlier I would've taken you up on your offer, but I'll just send the male to Agent A.

Agent A, don't worry we still have our deal. We'll split the ooths and if you want, take ismart up on his offer and breed them. You'll be the "breeder" until we get a next generation. If not, just breed your female as planned. We have to keep these guys common in the culture, too many cool species have just gone to the wayside.

The next time I try this species, I will try and up the temps a little more and will experiment with giving them more ventilation. Since they supposedly live in Southern California (even though I've heard some say Northern California), they would be exposed to arid and hot temperatures. Of course that experimenting will have to wait until I get nymphs but I will definitely try it.

On a side note, I actually feel bad for my male. Here he is lonely and wanting a mate, while the one male European that I have is surrounded by four virgin female Europeans and refuses to make a move on any of them. Some guys get all the luck. Anyway, it's up to you now Agent A, don't fail. And where's Massaman? What happened to his mated female?


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## Crazy4mantis (Aug 10, 2012)

agent A said:


> ok so this species is rare in culture, only like 4 peeps have them and u r not breeding them?


They run wild where I live. Find one every other day in the fall.


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## mantisboy (Aug 10, 2012)

If you are need of some male euros let me know, this is the time of year they are everywhere in Idaho. No charge outside of shipping and I have successfully shipped in the past.

I'm just going to throw this out there, it's probably completely unrelated but thought it worth noting. Last year I took some cuttings from a Maple tree for one of my housing. After 2 days I noticed the female wasn't doing well, she was on the bottom of the housing and her front legs were clutched tight.

When I remove the top of her housing it was apparent what had happened. The branches were fresh off the tree and as they were drying out in the housing there was a strong smell like turpentine. I instantly removed her, heavily misted her and put her on a towel, but it was too late.

Like I said, probably unrelated but thought I would just toss that in the mix.

Now I only use branches from certain trees and set them on top of BBQ for a couple of days until they are completely dry.


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## MantidLord (Aug 10, 2012)

Crazy4mantis, you're positive they're californica? That's great. If all else fails I know who to go to for some wild ones. I thought they were pretty hard to find outdoors.

Idahomantid, I think you and I may be the few that still deal with M. religiosa besides the people new to the hobby. But I'm good in the M. religiosa department. They're everywhere here I just haven't really gone out to find some, besides the occasional one on the house. About the euro male, it was a joke, the fact that he has all these females and does nothing while the california male is without females atm. I have relatives in Boise and they're starting to send me pictures of the mantids they run across (all Euros) so I believe you when you say they're everywhere.. But if push comes to shove, I'll just go outside and catch some males (I need to catch mantids soon anyway for Rick and Womantis).

About the Maple tree cuttings, that's useful info, and the clutched arms thing is exactly what she was doing. But I had the twigs and branches for a while and any new ones I got I made sure they were completely soaked and hard rinsed with hot water before introducing. Not to mention I use the same branches for all the mantids.


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## Sneaky123 (Aug 10, 2012)

This seems to happen with limbatas too, only not as frequently


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## frogparty (Aug 10, 2012)

Considering where I see the Californicas thrive, Id say HOT, low humidity. Id treat like Idolos.....At my dads in Murrieta its so damn hot right now, and they are going bonkers in his garden


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## agent A (Aug 10, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Considering where I see the Californicas thrive, Id say HOT, low humidity. Id treat like Idolos.....At my dads in Murrieta its so damn hot right now, and they are going bonkers in his garden


can u catch some for me? i'd gladly buy or trade u


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## MantidLord (Aug 10, 2012)

Okay, so I'll treat them like Iris oratoria then. Thanks for the info.


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## Crazy4mantis (Aug 10, 2012)

MantidLord said:


> Crazy4mantis, you're positive they're californica? That's great. If all else fails I know who to go to for some wild ones. I thought they were pretty hard to find outdoors.


There are so many stagmos where i live i'm sure some must be califs.


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## Crazy4mantis (Aug 10, 2012)

But i'll have to check.


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## agent A (Aug 10, 2012)

Crazy4mantis said:


> There are so many stagmos where i live i'm sure some must be califs.


if u can catch me a few adult calis and send them to u i might send u a few parahymenopus if ismart and i do a trade...


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## Krissim Klaw (Aug 10, 2012)

MantidLord said:


> On a side note, I actually feel bad for my male. Here he is lonely and wanting a mate, while the one male European that I have is surrounded by four virgin female Europeans and refuses to make a move on any of them. Some guys get all the luck. Anyway, it's up to you now Agent A, don't fail. And where's Massaman? What happened to his mated female?


My boy, Lazarus, feels for your male. He has been surrounded by all girls since I got him but none are his species. He is such an active roamer at night too, always flitering and racing around his cage. I know he is trying to search for some pretty ladies.


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## agent A (Aug 10, 2012)

Krissim Klaw said:


> My boy, Lazarus, feels for your male. He has been surrounded by all girls since I got him but none are his species. He is such an active roamer at night too, always flitering and racing around his cage. I know he is trying to search for some pretty ladies.


u have a male californica too??


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## mantid_mike (Aug 10, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Considering where I see the Californicas thrive, Id say HOT, low humidity. Id treat like Idolos.....At my dads in Murrieta its so damn hot right now, and they are going bonkers in his garden


Based on where i found my californica's ooth, I think you're pretty spot on. they like the heat, i'd say about 80-90 suits them well. I have a male and female Californica, both @ L5 and doing fine. Hopefully they reach adulthood so i can start sending off some ooths.


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## Krissim Klaw (Aug 11, 2012)

agent A said:


> u have a male californica too??


No, different species but same issue of having no girlies to love on.


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## MantidLord (Aug 11, 2012)

Okay great, well it's good to know the people who have access to wild populations.I'll definitely contact you guys sooner or later, sooner if the plans I made with Agent A don't work out.

Krissim Klaw, yeah I really feel bad for him. Mine just sits in his container and looks at the other mantids. While my euro male just sits there afraid to make a move.


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## agent A (Aug 11, 2012)

MantidLord said:


> Okay great, well it's good to know the people who have access to wild populations.I'll definitely contact you guys sooner or later, sooner if the plans I made with Agent A don't work out.
> 
> Krissim Klaw, yeah I really feel bad for him. Mine just sits in his container and looks at the other mantids. While my euro male just sits there afraid to make a move.


i think our plan should work out


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## womantis (Aug 11, 2012)

mantid lord,

your story is so similar to mine...healthy nympths, get to subadult or adult, eat, act fine and dead in 24 hours - sometimes a bit of lethargy, other times, sudden death..mine are (were) tenodera..all in net cubes, lots of ventilation, no mismoults and healthy crickets..realizing this happens..but at some point, would like to understand why...i am in northern california.


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## MantidLord (Aug 12, 2012)

Yeah, Agent A, I have faith in our plan.

Womantis, I've had that happen before, which is why I mentioned the whole "dead within 24 hours after a molt" syndrome (or something like that). It happens randomly it seems, a perfect molt and then bam, dead. Luckily, I've only experienced that event once this season with a M. religiosa female (a shame, but good thing I have an army). The californicas were different in that they would die either before a molt or right in the middle of their instar.

Unless I misread your post and you didn't mean they die within 24 hours of molting. But I don't have an answer either way, it sucks, that's why I try to have multiple breeding pairs.


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## agent A (Aug 12, 2012)

MantidLord said:


> Yeah, Agent A, I have faith in our plan.
> 
> Womantis, I've had that happen before, which is why I mentioned the whole "dead within 24 hours after a molt" syndrome (or something like that). It happens randomly it seems, a perfect molt and then bam, dead. Luckily, I've only experienced that event once this season with a M. religiosa female (a shame, but good thing I have an army). The californicas were different in that they would die either before a molt or right in the middle of their instar.
> 
> Unless I misread your post and you didn't mean they die within 24 hours of molting. But I don't have an answer either way, it sucks, that's why I try to have multiple breeding pairs.





MantidLord said:


> Yeah, Agent A, I have faith in our plan.
> 
> Womantis, I've had that happen before, which is why I mentioned the whole "dead within 24 hours after a molt" syndrome (or something like that). It happens randomly it seems, a perfect molt and then bam, dead. Luckily, I've only experienced that event once this season with a M. religiosa female (a shame, but good thing I have an army). The californicas were different in that they would die either before a molt or right in the middle of their instar.
> 
> Unless I misread your post and you didn't mean they die within 24 hours of molting. But I don't have an answer either way, it sucks, that's why I try to have multiple breeding pairs.


i'm sending rick the female this week so u should send him your male, i will feed her well if u r sendin him so they can be mated shortly...


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## frogparty (Aug 12, 2012)

Thunderstorms kept me from finding any yesterday, although I found an amazing huge apricot colored grasshopper subadult and a purple adult hopper of another type.


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## MantidLord (Aug 12, 2012)

Agent A, I'll be sending mine (along with other mantids for the event) most likely this week. I'm going out collecting tomorrow so I can donate mantids to the cause. And yes, fatten her up. I'll make sure mine is healthy, hydrated, and not hungry.

He should mate fairly easily too btw. I took him out yesterday to clean his cage and he fluttered and tried to mate with my finger. So he's definitely not shy.


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## agent A (Aug 12, 2012)

MantidLord said:


> Agent A, I'll be sending mine (along with other mantids for the event) most likely this week. I'm going out collecting tomorrow so I can donate mantids to the cause. And yes, fatten her up. I'll make sure mine is healthy, hydrated, and not hungry.
> 
> He should mate fairly easily too btw. I took him out yesterday to clean his cage and he fluttered and tried to mate with my finger. So he's definitely not shy.


ok good


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