# molting on floor



## polymath (Nov 13, 2013)

Yesterday I noticed my small carolina mantis hunched up in a molting position hanging from some fake grass type stuff in my enclosure, today when I looked for it I found it on the floor. Can mantis complete a molt from the floor? Is there anything I can do to hook it onto some screening in the cage? Or what should I do?

Thanks!


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## DinehCaveman (Nov 13, 2013)

It will mismolt or die if left on the floor carefully pick it up by the legs that have not come out and try to hook the feet back to the top the enclosure, use tape or spiderweb/cobweb, and hope for the best. Good luck


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## AxolotlsAreCoolToo (Nov 13, 2013)

Depending on how much of it came out you could pinch and hold the tip of abdomen where the loose skin. My female ghost fell while she was doing her final molt and i saved her with this method she has a flat sheild cause she fell on her bck but other than that she is veryhealthy and has laid about 10 ooths


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## polymath (Nov 13, 2013)

thanks for the quick replies! The mantis was almost completely out by the time I picked it up and taped it upside down. Hopefully it will be able to grab hold of something when its front legs get out. Its sibling molted just fine but was a little smarter and did it on screen rather than grass.. Hope they figure it out...


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## polymath (Nov 14, 2013)

So the little guy is still hanging from its old exoskeleton--its been about 18 hours since I hung it up. Is there any hope?


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## polymath (Nov 14, 2013)




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## Rick (Nov 14, 2013)

Can't really tell what is going on in the pic but it doesn't look like a successful molting process. A molt takes mere minutes so that one is doomed.


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## polymath (Nov 14, 2013)

'doomed' is a powerful word... Anyway I think you're right, I managed to get some of the stuck molt off but it isn't standing, it's still in a hunched position and is just flailing. It ate a little of a fly I got for it but I don't see it making it to its next molt..


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## Paradoxica (Nov 14, 2013)

Sorry to hear about that, but if it can't move or hang under it's own power, the merciful thing to do is put it in the freezer.


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## Rick (Nov 15, 2013)

polymath said:


> 'doomed' is a powerful word... Anyway I think you're right, I managed to get some of the stuck molt off but it isn't standing, it's still in a hunched position and is just flailing. It ate a little of a fly I got for it but I don't see it making it to its next molt..


I know I am right. It may live but only with you feeding it until the next molt when it will die because it will not be able to molt again.


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## polymath (Nov 15, 2013)

no offense intended


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## polymath (Nov 15, 2013)

I put it in the freezer last night, it isn't suffering anymore.


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## sally (Nov 15, 2013)

Sorry, I hate when they have trouble with the molt.


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## polymath (Nov 15, 2013)

Thanks, this one kind of upset me, of my two Carolina's this one was my favorite.. I told my workmates (I keep them at work so my cats don't bother them) and they didn't understand why I froze it. I tried to explain but they were being obnoxious. Hopefully I can get my other one to adulthood.


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## Adrenna (Nov 15, 2013)

I had a betta fish at work that got a bad fungal infection and was suffering. I had to quit telling people I put it down because they didn't understand it. I traumatized one person by telling them the fish was in the freezer when they asked. That might have been deliberate though. They were a bit high strung.

"Passed away" was easier to comprehend. It takes a lot of personal strength to put down pets of any type - cat, dog, fish.. mantis - when it hurts badly but it's the best decision. Some people can do it, others can't.


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## polymath (Nov 17, 2013)

I appreciate your sympathy, I didn't want it to suffer. One of my friends said. "insects don't feel pain" which I found ridiculous, even if they don't, how do you propose to test such a hypothesis, better just to assume that they can suffer as well.


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## Extrememantid (Nov 17, 2013)

polymath said:


> I appreciate your sympathy, I didn't want it to suffer. One of my friends said. "insects don't feel pain" which I found ridiculous, even if they don't, how do you propose to test such a hypothesis, better just to assume that they can suffer as well.


Well... That is true, they can't.. But you did the right thing


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## polymath (Nov 18, 2013)

I think that is a gray area, and I've seen it argued many ways especially when people define the word pain with emotional context. I think it is still up to debate and experiment whether they can feel pain/discomfort..


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## Extrememantid (Nov 18, 2013)

polymath said:


> I think that is a gray area, and I've seen it argued many ways especially when people define the word pain with emotional context. I think it is still up to debate and experiment whether they can feel pain/discomfort..


When a mantid or insect loses a leg, it keeps going on with it's normal life. When a mammal/human loses a leg... They would scream, cry, moan etc. I'm talking about physical pain, I'm sure they feel discomfort. But it must be more like "why doesn't my body work anymore?" to them. We can't know for sure, but there has been enough talk about it... And facts to lead us to believe that.-Cole


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## polymath (Nov 18, 2013)

Extrememantid said:


> I'm talking about physical pain, I'm sure they feel discomfort.


Discomfort is part of most definitions of pain, example: "pain: physical suffering or discomfort caused by illness or injury."

I can see where you're coming from but because invertebrates, especially 'bugs' are so much different from humans its very difficult for us to see completely how they may experience the world around them. I would be more likely to respond (positively) to arguments stating that insects/'bugs' have no evolutionary advantage to feeling pain because they don't live long enough to learn from experiences that are damaging towards them unlike higher order animals.

Anyway, like you said, there's no way to know for sure at the moment.


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## Extrememantid (Nov 18, 2013)

polymath said:


> Discomfort is part of most definitions of pain, example: "pain: physical suffering or discomfort caused by illness or injury."
> 
> I can see where you're coming from but because invertebrates, especially 'bugs' are so much different from humans its very difficult for us to see completely how they may experience the world around them. I would be more likely to respond (positively) to arguments stating that insects/'bugs' have no evolutionary advantage to feeling pain because they don't live long enough to learn from experiences that are damaging towards them unlike higher order animals.
> 
> Anyway, like you said, there's no way to know for sure at the moment.


Yes I agree, what I meant by discomfort is something more along the lines of having something sharp lightly poking you or being in a extremely small space.. But the way you described discomfort does make sence.. But no we cannot know for sure.. Well let's leave it at that? I'm sorry to hear about your loss. Good luck with your other nymph.


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## polymath (Nov 19, 2013)

Thanks


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