# Orchid Sex?



## phreeze (Jul 8, 2009)

Got these today and would appreciate any help i can get in sexing them. I have 2 to sex, first three pics are the same one, will upload pics of the second later.

They are not the best pics, but should have the number of segments in focus i hope, thanks in advance for any help.

















Ok this is the second one, was more active so afraid the shots are not quite as good, again any help would be appreciated


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## bassist (Jul 8, 2009)

Those aren't that great of pictures to sex them take a picture of their butts the back of the abdomen.


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## beckyl92 (Jul 8, 2009)

the first 3 pics are females. they have 7 segments


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## phreeze (Jul 8, 2009)

Is this any more use?


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## bassist (Jul 8, 2009)

phreeze said:


> Is this any more use?


No.


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## phreeze (Jul 8, 2009)

then i'm afraid i will have to wait till tomorrow those were the best i could get between work and heading out today, wanted to get them in their new homes, misted and fed before i went out, didn't leave much time to wait for them to stand still  

Thanks for the answer btw becky, am hoping for 2x female as i have my eyes on buying some younger nymps shortly and the different ages/bloodlines would be great for breeding [if the younger ones turn out to be male]


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## hibiscusmile (Jul 8, 2009)

Just so Becky knows in the future, girls have fewer segments than boys, dont count the top they hold next to the body, count underneath, the first one appears to be a male for what I see in the pic and for sure second is a girl.


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## Rick (Jul 9, 2009)

BeckyL said:


> the first 3 pics are females. they have 7 segments


This is why newbies should not give advice since females have six segments. It appears to be a male to me but we need better pics of the underside or you need to wait until they get bigger.


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## revmdn (Jul 9, 2009)

I had a hard time with my orchids. All the others were easy for me.


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## phreeze (Jul 9, 2009)

Thanks for all the responses, I will add some more pics tonight trying to get the underside to be shown clearly, I was really short on time last night. I'd rather be as sure as I can with them at this age as feeding and heating a male would be a small disaster.

But equally to get them (if they are different sexes) to become adult at the same time with out acting early, from allI have read is very challenging.


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## Rick (Jul 9, 2009)

phreeze said:


> Thanks for all the responses, I will add some more pics tonight trying to get the underside to be shown clearly, I was really short on time last night. I'd rather be as sure as I can with them at this age as feeding and heating a male would be a small disaster.But equally to get them (if they are different sexes) to become adult at the same time with out acting early, from allI have read is very challenging.


What do you mean by "heating a male"?


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## phreeze (Jul 9, 2009)

Rick said:


> What do you mean by "heating a male"?


females take more molts to adult with this species right?

and i have read in several places you can keep the enclosure warmer and feed more often to speed up development of the female, keeping the male cooler and feeding less often to slow his development down.

The comment was meaning if i got the wrong sex and keep the male warmer and better fed it would mean he matures even more ahead of the female.

Am i wrong here?


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## Rick (Jul 9, 2009)

phreeze said:


> females take more molts to adult with this species right?and i have read in several places you can keep the enclosure warmer and feed more often to speed up development of the female, keeping the male cooler and feeding less often to slow his development down.
> 
> The comment was meaning if i got the wrong sex and keep the male warmer and better fed it would mean he matures even more ahead of the female.
> 
> Am i wrong here?


Don't worry about that. I keep both male and female orchids the exact same way. The male does mature sooner but that won't matter. He will still be alive and well when she matures. Extra heat is not needed for orchids unless your room is too cold. THey do fine at room temps.


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## phreeze (Jul 9, 2009)

Rick said:


> Don't worry about that. I keep both male and female orchids the exact same way. The male does mature sooner but that won't matter. He will still be alive and well when she matures. Extra heat is not needed for orchids unless your room is too cold. THey do fine at room temps.


Ok i'll take that on board, really appreciating all the advice guys and girls

Have tried again to get better shots from behind the first one, i struggled to get much clarity between the segments as they are so consistent and pure in colour. Have had so much great help already in this thread lets hope i have got the right shot to get this one sexed.


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## Katnapper (Jul 9, 2009)

I would say female.


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## Rick (Jul 9, 2009)

Looks male to me but orchids can be hard to sex when small.


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## Katnapper (Jul 9, 2009)

I could definitely be wrong.  But here is what I see:

5 or 6 segments (depending where you start counting from), indicating female






Top segment is notched; indication of female






"Necklace" is more green than brown in color, indicating female


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## phreeze (Jul 9, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> I could definitely be wrong.  But here is what I see:5 or 6 segments (depending where you start counting from), indicating female
> 
> Top segment is notched; indication of female
> 
> "Necklace" is more green than brown in color, indicating female


Thank you very much for taking the time to edit the photos and show what you are looking at to sex these little critters. It is very useful to know how you came to a conclusion and am sure will help me learn, diagrams in books are only so good, never seen a mantis pose like a diagram in a book to check them :blink: 

For you to pick that detail out i guess the pics must have been a little more useful, will try and get them from a similar angle in future.


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## Katnapper (Jul 9, 2009)

You're welcome.  I just hope it proves correct, as they can be tricky!


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## [email protected] (Jul 10, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]hey that was cool becky we could set you up a topic list sexing with photo shop by Kat "Ha ha ha" :lol: [/SIZE]


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## Rick (Jul 10, 2009)

I clearly see 7 segments. Right below your number 1 there is a segment.


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## phreeze (Jul 10, 2009)

Rick said:


> orchids can be hard to sex when small.


Looks to me like i may just have to wait another shed then, i know both Katnapper and Rick seem to be very experienced, and i would have taken either of your answers as correct with out a question, again many thanks for taking the time to look and try and figure this out for me.


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## Rick (Jul 10, 2009)

phreeze said:


> Looks to me like i may just have to wait another shed then, i know both Katnapper and Rick seem to be very experienced, and i would have taken either of your answers as correct with out a question, again many thanks for taking the time to look and try and figure this out for me.


Never hurts to wait another molt. I was trying to look at mine the other day with a magnifying glass. I gave that up pretty quick. :lol:


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## hibiscusmile (Jul 10, 2009)

Well it is easy to tell the difference once u get used to it, when u get better pic we will help u!


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## phreeze (Jul 10, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Well it is easy to tell the difference once u get used to it, when u get better pic we will help u!


were the last two pics still not good enough?


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## pohchunyee (Jul 10, 2009)

Looks female for me!


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## mantidian (Jul 10, 2009)

Should be a female.


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## agent A (Jul 10, 2009)

I am pretty sure it's a female. Show me a side view of the tip of the abdomen.


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## Rick (Jul 10, 2009)

I still see 7 segments but the notch is pretty defined. I seem to be the only one saying male which probably means my eyes are not what they used to be. B)


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## Katnapper (Jul 10, 2009)

Rick said:


> Never hurts to wait another molt. I was trying to look at mine the other day with a magnifying glass. I gave that up pretty quick. :lol:


I agree.  

I bought a pair of :blink: strength reading glasses to keep in the bug room, thinking that would help me. But it's just not the same as a macro lens or waiting until they're past the point of youth that it's not so ambiguous.

I see the 7 seven segments you see, Rick.  The end or tip segment is kind of the kicker for me. I think that big one I've labeled "5" is the one in the female that (currently in his specimen) overtakes the smaller ones at the tip to become the last large segment. And if so, it would make the segment count 5 or 6, depending on where you start counting from (I also see the segment you see below the "1"). I think some people include that one in the count, and some don't... which is where you get the "females = 5 or 6, males 7 or 8). But even if you include that one, it would still be 6 to how I see it.

Phreeze, your pics were perfectly taken to include the view needed to sex. It would help if they were a bit better resolution; and also it would help if the specimen was another molt older to be able to determine with more confidence. But a view of the "side of the tip of the abdomen" is not needed, and would not help.


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## phreeze (Jul 10, 2009)

agent A said:


> Show me a side view of the tip of the abdomen.





Katnapper said:


> But a view of the "side of the tip of the abdomen" is not needed, and would not help.


I was just starting to wonder how many different angles i was going to be asked to take pics of, maybe number of toes would be the next request


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## agent A (Jul 10, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> But a view of the "side of the tip of the abdomen" is not needed, and would not help.


yeah huh. the ovipositer is most visible from the side. see:


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## Rick (Jul 10, 2009)

agent A said:


> yeah huh. the ovipositer is most visible from the side. see:View attachment 756


That is an adult female which really doesn't help in this case.


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## agent A (Jul 10, 2009)

just giving an example.


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## hibiscusmile (Jul 10, 2009)

pics are fine, I do so like a picture of the toes to make sure :lol: , and without a doubt both your babys are girls. without a doubt!


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## agent A (Jul 10, 2009)

Yeah probably. Wouldn't the males be tiny at this point?


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## beckyl92 (Jul 10, 2009)

Rick said:


> This is why newbies should not give advice since females have six segments. It appears to be a male to me but we need better pics of the underside or you need to wait until they get bigger.


girls have 6-7.

even my giant shield has 7 and shes laying an ootheca right now! :lol:


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## Katnapper (Jul 10, 2009)

BeckyL said:


> girls have 6-7.even my giant shield has 7 and shes laying an ootheca right now! :lol:


Becky, the females don't have 7 segments. It's 5 or 6 for females, and 7 or 8 for males (depending where you start counting from).


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## beckyl92 (Jul 10, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Becky, the females don't have 7 segments. It's 5 or 6 for females, and 7 or 8 for males (depending where you start counting from).


do you count the bottom segment?


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## Katnapper (Jul 10, 2009)

BeckyL said:


> do you count the bottom segment?


It depends, Becky. You can either count it or not... 5, if you don't, and 6 if you do. But that very last small "tip" part/s coming out *after* the last real/full segment, is what you shouldn't count as a "segment." It's sometimes hard to tell if they are going to actually be real (and countable) segments, or the smaller ones that get incorporated into the last large segment for females.


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## beckyl92 (Jul 10, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> It depends, Becky. You can either count it or not... 5, if you don't, and 6 if you do. But that very last small "tip" part/s coming out *after* the last real/full segment, is what you shouldn't count as a "segment." It's sometimes hard to tell if they are going to actually be real (and countable) segments, or the smaller ones that get incorporated into the last large segment for females.


yeah thats probably what im getting confused with. sorry


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## Katnapper (Jul 10, 2009)

BeckyL said:


> yeah thats probably what im getting confused with. sorry


You don't have to be sorry... I still get confused with them too. They're not always easy, especially in nymphs.


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## EntomoAK (Jul 16, 2009)

My sweetheart mantis


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## kamakiri (Dec 24, 2009)

Did anyone follow-up with the sexing of these orchids? I'm thinking the first one is female and the second one male in the 7/8 pictures. And the 7/9 pictures are female.


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