# Interbreeding



## psyconiko (Jul 27, 2011)

Have someone ever tried to mate mantis of the same genus?What results?

Thank you!


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## mantidfromhell (Jul 27, 2011)

i remember reading somewhere that the nymphs were born really weak and never made it to adult hood. still needs verification though


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## Ryan.M (Jul 27, 2011)

Nikkko, I'm confused when you say "same genus". In taxonomy, genus denotes a family of closely related species. I'm assuming you mean interbreeding between offspring. Maybe it's a language thing  

If there was no "language thing" and you really did mean mating closely related species of the same genus, that would be almost impossible as most species are defined from one another by thier inability to mate with anything other than their own species.  

Anyways if you're referring to interbreeding between offspring, there is a higher chance that recessive mutations may occur in the next generation, which could lead to developmental problems, but it doesn't mean that the majority of the next generation can't be healthy individuals.

In my opinion you might have a couple less (if any) nymphs maturing to adulthood, but most should be fairly healthy. It's always a good idea to shuffle the gene pool when you can so you get a fresh set of healthy genes, so don't interbreed for more than a few generations.

Cheers!

Edit: maybe i am the one with the language problem, i just realized this says interbreeding, not inbreeding :lol:


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## psyconiko (Jul 27, 2011)

Thank you for your answer I am posting a picture of the one I want to mate to be clearer!

Popa sp adult female












Popa spurca adult male






I presume it should work.What do you think?


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## Rick (Jul 28, 2011)

Please do a search on this topic. It has been discussed many times. For the most part breeding two different mantid species will not work. I have heard that it can be possible to get offspring from two closely related species in the same genus but that the offspring are few and very weak and most likely infertile.


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## psyconiko (Jul 28, 2011)

Thank you.Yes I have read a lot about it(hybrids and interbreeding).In the wild there is more interbreeding than we think(thats what I have heard from biologists) and it is not that unusual.The only problem would be to make them(2 differents subspecies) meet and mate as they are not supposed to live together in the exact same inhabitat.

Yes nymphs from interbreeding may be weak but some of them should be viable.

I will try these days and keep you informed.


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## Rick (Jul 29, 2011)

Nikkko said:


> Thank you.Yes I have read a lot about it(hybrids and interbreeding).In the wild there is more interbreeding than we think(thats what I have heard from biologists) and it is not that unusual.The only problem would be to make them(2 differents subspecies) meet and mate as they are not supposed to live together in the exact same inhabitat.
> 
> Yes nymphs from interbreeding may be weak but some of them should be viable.
> 
> I will try these days and keep you informed.


Keep in mind it is generally frowned upon to do such experiments.


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## MantidLord (Aug 3, 2011)

Go for it dude. And keep us up to date on how it goes. Make sure you do a lot of documentation.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 3, 2011)

As Rick says, and the reason for that is that if you should manage to create a fertile hybrid, you stand to contaminate two existing species. Everyone says, "Oh I wouldn't allow that to happen", but so far as i can see, anyone irresponsible enough to make such a cross in the first place is unlikely to be able to prevent further cross breeding and the introduction into the hobby of freaks that are neither quite one species or the other. I agree with those who believe that this is the most harmful thing that anyone can do in the hobby. For everyone's sake, including yours, I hope that the mantids do not cooperate with you!  .


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## Gill (Aug 4, 2011)

> The only problem would be to make them(2 differents subspecies) meet and mate as they are not supposed to live together in the exact same inhabitat.


It is an interesting question that does not get discussed much. There is only one species of Popa (Popa spurca)(so the offspring will be fertile etc) and you are talking of breeding geographically distinct lines of the same species that would not naturally come into contact.

We use the IGM numbers to help with this on UKMF as then you can distinguish the different lines. It is considered best to keep the strains seperate but not always done at all. Do you know where yours are from? If possible try to keep geographically distict lines seperate/pure.


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## psyconiko (Aug 4, 2011)

I see 3 different IGM numbers regarding Popa spurca.I guess mine are coming from the most recent stock(got them from Germany last year).I am anyway breeding them(I have males and females).

I also have these Popa sp(undata,undulata?).You can see them for sale on a UK webstore.

They are darker than spurca with a more cryptic shape.

I only have 2 remaining adult females from this sp.So once my males spurca have mated,I will try to mate the other sp.


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## Gill (Aug 4, 2011)

_Popa spurca undulata_ is still _ Popa spurca_ I think as I think there is only one species. I'd like to know if that is wrong.

It might be worth asking if the undulata seller knows the IGM


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 4, 2011)

Yes, we have a lot of confusion here. I think, Nikko, that his might be a language issue.

Setting aside things like the "biological species concept' we can say that a species breeds true and has a binomial designation, e.g. Popa spurca. A sub species of a species is usually geographically isolated from the type species, will interbreed with the type species, but differs from it in minor morphological aspects It bears a trinomial ("Popa spurca spurca", which i just invented). It also exists entirely in the imagination of the systematist that named it. Some systematists are "lumpers" and will describe few if ay subspecies, "Splitters" will base a subspecies on the slightest difference. These "scientists" may never see a live specimen of the species that thy name and know nothing of its ecology, but that is a rant for another day. Note, though, that while mammalian subspecies are common, insect subspecies are rare.

Popa undulata is a separate species from Popa spurca, if it is indeed still valid (does anyone have a copy of Ehrmann handy?). Frey offered this species, or what she believed to be this species, when she first started trading here,but there are a number of mantis strains (reflected by different IGM numbers, but the site is down again) in culture whose identity is suspect e.g. the recent Polish mantid identified as C.sassuri .

If you cross two different races (different IGM numbers) of P. spurca, or if you successfully cross breed P. spurca and what you believe to be P. undulata (much more difficult and unlikely), you will simply confuse the situation further. Why would you want to produce this freak? What will you call it? Do you feel competent, by scientific training, to call it anything at all?

You mention that hybtidization takes place in nature, Nikko, and I don't dispute that, but clearly, the offspring of such hybrids do not flourish, or hybrid mantids would be widespread in nature, which they are not. Those biologists who mentioned the occurrence of such wild hybrids will also, i am sure, caution you against producing artificial hybrids and suggest that any accidental hybrids so produced should be destroyed.


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## MantidLord (Aug 4, 2011)

I disagree Philly ol buddy. It's not impossible to control any products of hybridization. If he keeps it in a controlled area and either eliminates the offspring after he proves it's possible, then problem solved. Second, if the offspring are infertile, then "controlling" isn't a problem at all. Go for it Nikko. Make sure it's extremely controlled. Well documented. And well thought out and planned out. Have a plan for even the worst case scenario (escapees). I'm not going to discourage you from doing something that may provide a lot of information on mantids. Although so far it isn't as well documented (if it were, threads like this wouldn't exist), you may be able to provide some valid results. And by valid, I don't mean successfull hybridization. I mean conclusive evidence that species X can/can't hybridize with species Y. Go for it.


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## What (Aug 4, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> It also exists entirely in the imagination of the systematist that named it. Some systematists are "lumpers" and will describe few if ay subspecies, "Splitters" will base a subspecies on the slightest difference. These "scientists" may never see a live specimen of the species that thy name and know nothing of its ecology, but that is a rant for another day. Note, though, that while mammalian subspecies are common, insect subspecies are rare.


Not entirely true... Especially with lepidopterans, some coleoptera(Lucanidae comes to mind immediately), and other groups where subspecies are exceedingly common. There are subspecies based upon things such as behavioral differences, host plant choice, distribution, coloration, etc and just because a subspecies is described does not mean that it will be held to be valid. Other entomologists have to hold others work to be valid for it to actually matter, unless there are significant reasons for not learning of the animal's ecology(limited specimens, cryptic behavior, unknown habitat) most works that attempt to describe species or subspecies will not be accepted or will be considered to be dubious until that information is known.



> If you cross two different races (different IGM numbers) of P. spurca, or if you successfully cross breed P. spurca and what you believe to be P. undulata (much more difficult and unlikely), you will simply confuse the situation further. Why would you want to produce this freak? What will you call it? Do you feel competent, by scientific training, to call it anything at all?


If you cross two different "races" of the same species well...you just bred a species? If they are of different and established "lines" then they should be marked as a crossing of lines, not that hard, not a doomsday scenario, not a problem. Please stop your intentionally obtuse behavior.



> but clearly, the offspring of such hybrids do not flourish, or hybrid mantids would be widespread in nature, which they are not. Those biologists who mentioned the occurrence of such wild hybrids will also, i am sure, caution you against producing artificial hybrids and suggest that any accidental hybrids so produced should be destroyed.


Hybrid zones in nature, aka intergrade zones, may simply have not been sampled as the "scientists"(entomologists) you were talking about earlier typically try to avoid them when describing a species but still do their due diligence and mention that such zones to exist. *IF* hybrids created in captivity that suffer from a lack of fitness should be culled, this is obvious, but healthy individuals should be backcrossed to its siblings or one of the original strains in an attempt to stabilize it. Again, no doomsday scenario and only a small amount of responsibility is needed. I highly doubt ANY scientist of any kind would recommend the destruction of hybrids because they are hybrids, in fact they would encourage you to write a scientific paper on the matter, anyone with doubts I am happy to find my Latrodectus and Saturniid hybrid experiment papers where in at least one the author encourages others to attempt hybrids and document them. A scientist may discourage you from releasing such hybrids into the environment, but that should be done with ANY captive invertebrate to reduce the chances of introducing new pests and parasites to the ecosystem.


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## psyconiko (Aug 4, 2011)

MantidLord said:


> I disagree Philly ol buddy. It's not impossible to control any products of hybridization. If he keeps it in a controlled area and either eliminates the offspring after he proves it's possible, then problem solved. Second, if the offspring are infertile, then "controlling" isn't a problem at all. Go for it Nikko. Make sure it's extremely controlled. Well documented. And well thought out and planned out. Have a plan for even the worst case scenario (escapees). I'm not going to discourage you from doing something that may provide a lot of information on mantids. Although so far it isn't as well documented (if it were, threads like this wouldn't exist), you may be able to provide some valid results. And by valid, I don't mean successfull hybridization. I mean conclusive evidence that species X can/can't hybridize with species Y. Go for it.


Thank you for your support and advice Mantidlord!

Thanks to Phil,Gill,What and all the other members for your wise answers.

Your different points of view are very interesting.I believe I have to be extremely careful.

So to sum up:

Fertile offspring would mean:1. these Popas(both parents) were in fact of the same genus

OR

2. hybrids,and I have a "new" species?

Unfertile offspring would mean: These Popas are not supposed to meet and therefore the offspring has no mean to exist

and these mutants should be destroyed because they could weaken the original Popa strain?


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## tier (Aug 4, 2011)

Lombardo F. (1995) A review of the genus _Popa_ Stil1856 (Insecta Mantodea). Tropical Zoology, 8(2) 257-267.

"It is suggested that _Mantis undata_ Fabricius, 1793 does not belong to the genus _Popa_ Stil 1856 as believed until now, but to the Indian genus _Ambivia_ StAl, 1877 (n. comb.). The systematic position of the species of _Popa_ is re-examined and a single species, _Popa spurca_ StAl, 1856 (= _P. undata_ auct. nec Fabricius) is recognised. The species is differentiated into two subspecies, one being _Popa spurca spurca_ Stil, 1856 (= _P. stuhlmanni_ Rehn 1914, _P. batesi_ Saussure &amp; Zehntner 1895) (n. syn.) widespread throughout all Africa south of the Sahara, except in the east which is populated by the other subspecies, _P. spurca crassa_ (Giglio-Tos 1917)."


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## psyconiko (Aug 4, 2011)

That s a wonderful answer!Maybe some phyllogenetic analysis on all Popa species would close the debate.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 5, 2011)

If you cross two different "races" of the same species well...you just bred a species? If they are of different and established "lines" then they should be marked as a crossing of lines, not that hard, not a doomsday scenario, not a problem. Please stop your intentionally obtuse behavior.

@ what: Throughout your interesting post, your English seems to be seriously challenged. Is it s a second language for you? If so, you do remarkably well, but I am at a loss to see where some of your problems are entomological or etymological. Certainly, though, a sentence like "Please stop your intentionally obtuse behavior" makes no sense whatsoever.

You seem to be confusing subspecies, which bear a trinomial, and races, throughout. Let me make the situation more direct and simple by asking you to select a genus of Mantodea and name its subspecies. The problem with crossbreeding lines that carry an IGM number is that that number no longer applies. Isn't that obvious? If IGM numbers have value, then producing a non IGM strain from two IGM strains robs them of a lot of useful information.

"Not entirely true". There, i can agree completely. Few things are!

"A scientist may discourage you from releasing such hybrids into the environment, but that should be done with ANY captive invertebrate to reduce the chances of introducing new pests and parasites to the ecosystem." You miss the point entirely. A scientist (entomologist!) would discourage you from maintaining the hybrid, especially if it is capable, as most surely are, of a back cross.


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## Gill (Aug 5, 2011)

tier said:


> Lombardo F. (1995) A review of the genus _Popa_ Stil1856 (Insecta Mantodea). Tropical Zoology, 8(2) 257-267.
> 
> "It is suggested that _Mantis undata_ Fabricius, 1793 does not belong to the genus _Popa_ Stil 1856 as believed until now, but to the Indian genus _Ambivia_ StAl, 1877 (n. comb.). The systematic position of the species of _Popa_ is re-examined and a single species, _Popa spurca_ StAl, 1856 (= _P. undata_ auct. nec Fabricius) is recognised. The species is differentiated into two subspecies, one being _Popa spurca spurca_ Stil, 1856 (= _P. stuhlmanni_ Rehn 1914, _P. batesi_ Saussure &amp; Zehntner 1895) (n. syn.) widespread throughout all Africa south of the Sahara, except in the east which is populated by the other subspecies, _P. spurca crassa_ (Giglio-Tos 1917)."


Ta Tier. I use TOLweb a lot as I not got Ehrmann and tolweb has a lot of the Ehrmann lists and it showed _Popa_ as one species.

Ta _What _for making clear the issues involved in a concise and comprehensible way.

Many similar quandries to Nikko's occur and I don't think the answer is always Oi stop you'll make freaks. The answer is not always yay new blood either. I think an effort should be made to preserve culture lines but if it risks the culture remaining in culture then consideration and discussion of the way forward is responsible.

With some genera like _Miomantis_, they are very difficult to classify and so we often see Mio sp. Creo sp. In addition for many imported species the id can be initially wrong, the current culture Sphodromantis cf. aurea is a great example as it has had four names to date. This is where the 'never been down' for me IGM is so handy http://www.hotel-grille.de/IGM-Nummern.htm.

One day Popa spurca and Popa spurca crassa might become two biologically distinct species.



> Phil. The problem with crossbreeding lines that carry an IGM number is that that number no longer applies. Isn't that obvious? If IGM numbers have value, then producing a non IGM strain from two IGM strains robs them of a lot of useful information.


 At Phil, many people advertise for breeding stock without mentioning the culture source. This has been seen as a problem most recently with _Deroplatys lobata_ as a few geographically distinct stocks have been around at the same time. Whilst the pure stock of a Deroplatys lobata exists it has the number and is labelled pure stock and if you breed with a seperate stock you use a mixed stock number or no number. If no pure stock remains but the culture is still going it gets labelled mixed.


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## What (Aug 5, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> Throughout your interesting post, your English seems to be seriously challenged. Is it s a second language for you? If so, you do remarkably well, but I am at a loss to see where some of your problems are entomological or etymological. Certainly, though, a sentence like "Please stop your intentionally obtuse behavior" makes no sense whatsoever.


Ironic irony right there. English is my first language, I will admit to the typo of capitalizing "especially" but aside from that I cannot find any real errors in my post that you(who cannot figure out the quote function, apparently) should be criticizing if your point was actually supported.



> You seem to be confusing subspecies, which bear a trinomial, and races, throughout. Let me make the situation more direct and simple by asking you to select a genus of Mantodea and name its subspecies. The problem with crossbreeding lines that carry an IGM number is that that number no longer applies. Isn't that obvious? If IGM numbers have value, then producing a non IGM strain from two IGM strains robs them of a lot of useful information.


I am doing no such thing. In my post I state that the crossing of the IGM Popa spurca and the IGM P. undulata(which as tier posted = P. spurca) is little more than a crossing of two "races" of a species, so he would simply be breeding P. spurca("just bred a species"). If he wanted to label these offspring he could label them Popa spurca(IGM # X IGM #) which would clearly state exactly what the mantis is. (Gill/tier, if that is wrong please feel free to correct me.)



> You miss the point entirely. A scientist (entomologist!) would discourage you from maintaining the hybrid, especially if it is capable, as most surely are, of a back cross.


It is not I who is missing the point being made, Phil. "The value of hybridization as a tool in elucidating phylogeny has been well documented by Hubbs (1967)_(a paper dealing with hybrid fish)_." - Hybrids Between Callosamia and Samia (Saturniidae) - Piegler R.S. 1978 In his paper here he describes amazing back crossings to achieve a successful Callosamia (securifera♂ X angulifera♀)♂ X [angulifera♂ X (angulifera♂ X securifera♀)♀]♀ mating that resulted in a fertile ova. Here also is a paper by Dr. Schmidt exploring Latrodectus crossings: http://www.european-arachnology.org/proceedings/13th/215-222_Schmidt.pdf

So what were you saying about scientists now?


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 5, 2011)

OK, let me make a concession right here. Your English is appalling.("ironic irony" ?), but once I work my way around it, it is not, usually, unfathomable. You do seem to be a little hostile and aggressive in addressing a stranger, though. Perhaps you are just very young.

So let us look at what you are saying. There is no provision in the IGM system for the imaginary designation that you suggest. Are you familiar with the system? On a good day (when the site is operating properly) it is not difficult to check out.

Your quotations are, I am confident, without checking, accurate, but you seem to be unable to distinguish between the research of a scientist publishing a refereed paper in an authorized, journal and an amateur, like Niko, you or me, doing home grown experiments.

I'm out of here after this. I notice, though, that, although I have no idea who you are, you address me as "Phil", a term frequently used and welcomed by friends and colleagues on this forum. In this case, though, you might wish to refer to me as Dr. Rayner, PhD. As I once said, years ago on this forum, I have no intention of being kicked to death by a canary.


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## Malti (Aug 5, 2011)

*steps into the battleground*

I don't think Nikkko is doing anything bad - I did the same thing with fish (_Xiphophorus maculatus_ x _Xiphophorus helleri_), finding out that the hybrids, were fertile, with better "maternal instincts"(not eating the young) but very weak to changes in temp/ph etc, and smaller broods. Kept all the fry and thus there was no species contamination problems.

Now lemme get ready for the flak...

:tank:


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## What (Aug 5, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> OK, let me make a concession right here. Your English is appalling.("ironic irony" ?), but once I work my way around it, it is not, usually, unfathomable. You do seem to be a little hostile and aggressive in addressing a stranger, though. Perhaps you are just very young.


My "ironic irony" statement is in response to your appearing to be deliberately dense*. If you are not deliberately doing so and your behavior(missing my very clear point) has not been intentional Dr. Phil (Rayner) then we should end our discussion right here as we will make no progress talking any further. If I am being hostile then I do not know what to call your bringing my usage of the English language** into things, questioning my age, or anything else when your point is not being supported by anything but your "title". Your position is further drawn into question by your statement that hybrids would be discouraged by those working on the mantids/organisms(they would be interested in the results, if my experiences are correct) and your incorrect statement that insect subspecies are rare. If you can support either of those statements in any manner I would love to see that.

*- I am rephrasing from "intentionally obtuse" because you didnt get that, see why this is ironic? Or should I spell it out further? =/

**- Which, btw, got me As/Bs in HS, an A in the college English course that I have taken, an A in both philosophy classes I have taken, and a very respectable essay score on the SAT.



> So let us look at what you are saying. There is no provision in the IGM system for the imaginary designation that you suggest. Are you familiar with the system? On a good day (when the site is operating properly) it is not difficult to check out.


I am not familiar with the IGM system. The "imaginary designation" I suggest was based upon a common sense approach following my earlier statement: "If they are of different and established "lines" then they should be marked as a crossing of lines, not that hard". If you are misunderstanding my point because you are clinging to a difference in the IGM system's reality and my hypothetical example...then, again, it is not I who is missing the point.



> Your quotations are, I am confident, without checking, accurate, but you seem to be unable to distinguish between the research of a scientist publishing a refereed paper in an authorized, journal and an amateur, like Niko, you or me, doing home grown experiments.


What place in your world, Dr Rayner, is there for a man like Wendell Icenogle, a man without a college degree, who has contributed more than most do in a lifetime to our knowledge of the (primarily) arachnid fauna of California, and who knows more(by their admittance) than almost every arachnologist I have mentioned his name to? In your world, he is merely an amateur yet in mine he is an inspiration and proves just how valuable hobbyists are to science. Where do you draw the line between research done by an "amateur" and the research done by a "scientist"?

What does that line have to do with your telling us that a scientist would discourage hybrids and that they are without value? (Which as I stated before, you are trying hard to change the topic from.)



> I'm out of here after this. I notice, though, that, although I have no idea who you are, you address me as "Phil", a term frequently used and welcomed by friends and colleagues on this forum. In this case, though, you might wish to refer to me as Dr. Rayner, PhD. As I once said, years ago on this forum, I have no intention of being kicked to death by a canary.


I addressed you as Phil, the first part of your username which combines your name and location, if you would like to be addressed by another name perhaps you should not have used Phil as part of your name but rather DrRaynerinYuma.  If you would like to know more about me, feel free to send me a PM and I can give you a rundown on who What is. I am not anyone special, I am not anyone with credentials, I am simply an amateur by your earlier reasoning.

Anyways...hopefully that post is clear, its 3:30am here in California but my post seems sensible to me.


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## nebrakacinese (Aug 8, 2011)

People in thiland where they fight fish have been releasing their hybreds at least a century,there are 4 species of bettas that fall within the same genus, as hybreds.So nobody really knows for sure the species swimming in these waters.I used to raise Betta's, and still find it disturbing,that the genetic purity of these fish have been comprimised.I know their not mantids,just my thoughts on the subject.


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## Ntsees (Aug 8, 2011)

chinese ne said:


> People in thiland where they fight fish have been releasing their hybreds at least a century,there are 4 species of bettas that fall within the same genus, as hybreds.So nobody really knows for sure the species swimming in these waters.I used to raise Betta's, and still find it disturbing,that the genetic purity of these fish have been comprimised.I know their not mantids,just my thoughts on the subject.


Yeah, I'm am aware of what you said and it's too bad that it's happening. The best thing you can do is try to be able to distinguish the original fish from the hybrids. Even then, it might not be enough but at least you have a representative that resembles the true species. In addition to being fond of mantids, I'm also fond of wild bettas from the splendens complex. I raise _Betta smaragdina_.

(sorry for going off topic on a mantid post)


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## d17oug18 (Aug 9, 2011)

I dont know Philinyuma, What has some good points. Awesome debate, i wish this wasn't taken personally because i would love for this to go on. From what i read, gather, interpret I personally think any breeder/hobbyist is an amateur that does not photograph, report, graph, and keep track of what there breeding. As such would not be integrable to the sciences of whats being done, simply posting here and there would not suffice to anyone with real importance. With that being said, trying to hybrid a species, that would not live naturally even if it did escape is no threat. If this person did create a fertile ooth and its nymphs viable to be adults and breed further would die off in the natural US seasons that are no where near tropical/desert like, were they come from.

I say do it. Im 100% positive that a lot of others tried it with a lot of species and even if it worked. Would that new hybrid need different environments? Would that new hybrid need different food? Would that hybrid need something special that its counter parts did not? This is where i think Philinyuma's logic comes into play. How would a regular hobbyist know to separate and treat each nymph differently just in case? How do we not know that is why, when a hybrid was created that it wasn't that they were weak, maybe they just needed different care and the irresponsible breeder was unaware of it, so they died off?

My thoughts anyway. Im no scientist and i AM a college graduate but only for cooking lol.


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## lion (Aug 9, 2011)

This is what African honeybees do when they're not killing Americanized Portuguese.

Sorry just a bit of sarcasm for the kids who want a new colour candy.


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## ismart (Aug 9, 2011)

I personally just believe it's just a big waste of time! I have both wild _Tenodera sinensis_, and _Tenodera angustipennis_. They are both in overlapping habitats. They are both in the same genus. I have witnessed them mating with one another in the wild, and yet i have yet to come across a single hybrid. Year after year it's the same.


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## What (Aug 9, 2011)

ismart said:


> I personally just believe it's just a big waste of time! I have both wild _Tenodera sinensis_, and _Tenodera angustipennis_. They are both in overlapping habitats. They are both in the same genus. I have witnessed them mating with one another in the wild, and yet i have yet to come across a single hybrid. Year after year it's the same.


It could be simply that those species cannot hybridize, that is quite often the case.

Something that all of you might find interesting...hybrid speciation happening right here in the USA(naturally, no less)! http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~kunte/PapilioGlaucus.htm A very very very rare case indeed, but it does happen.



d17oug18 said:


> I dont know Philinyuma, What has some good points. Awesome debate, i wish this wasn't taken personally because i would love for this to go on.
> 
> ...How do we not know that is why, when a hybrid was created that it wasn't that they were weak, maybe they just needed different care and the irresponsible breeder was unaware of it, so they died off?


If Philinyuma wants to continue the discussion I am happy to, this is a topic I enjoy talking over with people endlessly, lol. To answer your question, there are many cases where you simply cannot know... but even so, if you managed to get fertile ooths with nymphs from a pairing of two species, even if all the nymphs died, that information is important. People making attempts in the future could pick up exactly where you left off, possibly with parents whose genes are more conducive to hybridization.


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## dragon (Aug 9, 2011)

Hmm, having issues trying to use the *multiquote option*. Is there something unique in the system used here? On any other forum I frequent, I would click on the *multiquote *for each quote I wish to include in my post then *quote *for the last one. I would then be taken to a reply window in which I then make my replies and post. Here however, if I click on *Multiquote*, I immediately get taken to a reply window without being able to add additional quotes before replying. Rather irritating. Makes addressing all the various points quite difficult. Anyhow, onto the subject at hand............

The subject of whether to create hybrids or not comes up on many different forums. Amongst plant hobbyists it doesn't seem to be an issue. Among those dealing with fauna it can be a very controversial topic as seen here. I wasn't truly surprised to see things "heat up" here though was somewhat disappointed. 

One thing I have noticed on the fauna related forums, is that it seems very rare to see any explanation of WHY hybrids should perhaps be avoided. Oh yes there is always the arguement for species purity but no reason given as to why that would be important. It seems that those posting such an opinion simply assume that it should be self evident whereas I suspect that for many people it is not. So why would you say purity matters? Be specific.

Now sterility of hybrids and lack of vigor is often the case, as was mentioned. However, there are times that increased vigor results (a common reason for hybridization in plants) and even sterility is not guaranteed. Mules, the offspring of a horse (_Equus caballus_) and a donkey (_Equus assinus_), are usually very vigorous -- combining some of the best attributes of both parents -- and some are actually fertile though this is rare. But again, assuming lack of vigor and sterility of the cross, this again does not provide a strong rationale for not doing the cross. If the intent is to bring about a new food crop or animal food source that is one thing. A less vigorous offspring would be a waste of resources. But if one is investigating behavioral traits, as one poster mentioned with a fish cross or wants a pack animal with the durability of a donkey but larger size more like that of a horse, then an arguement can be made as to the value of trying such a cross.

Btw, in answer to a Q, just because a viable, fertile hybrid results, that does not mean that the parents are actually the same species. Speciation has a number of facets that would take longer to go into. In the example above, though it is possible to get a fertile mule that does not mean that donkeys and horses are really the same species nor does it mean the hybrid is a new species.

One poster essentially said (sorry if I could get the multiquote function to work I could do the exact quote) that even if the hybrid proves to be vigorous &amp; fertile and escapes into the wild the conditions would not be favorable to its continuation. That is assuming that 

1) neither of the parents could survive in that environment; and 

2) that the hybrids in question REMAIN in this unfavorable environment.

Many invasive species have been inadvertantly introduced into environments hundreds of miles from their native regions. All it takes is a hybrid's eggsac/pregnant individual stowing away in a shipping crate that happens to carry it to a destination with more favorable conditions. If such an occurance does happen, then there is the potential for a variety of undesirable outcomes. The hybrid may prove to be better suited than other species in that new local and out compete them. There is also the possibility of diseases using the hybrid as a "bridge", providing a pathogen with the means by which to more easily adapt and cross species barriers so it can now infect a species it previously could not.

On an extraneous note, *What*, I really don't see Dr. Phil Rayner (Philinyama) confusion with your obtuse comment not making sense. For a "Dr." I would have to say perhaps his English could use some review. He did seem to be rather oblivious to how his own posts came across. However, one of the drawbacks of the written word is tone and intent do not always come across well. Perhaps he was unaware of how his post sounded. Ah well, c'est la vie!


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## Malti (Aug 9, 2011)

chinese ne said:


> People in thiland where they fight fish have been releasing their hybreds at least a century,there are 4 species of bettas that fall within the same genus, as hybreds.So nobody really knows for sure the species swimming in these waters.I used to raise Betta's, and still find it disturbing,that the genetic purity of these fish have been comprimised.I know their not mantids,just my thoughts on the subject.


the bad part is releasing them to the wild. I did have cross breed bettas (Dragons) so I know what you're refering to.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 9, 2011)

O.K. here goes. First, I think that i was much too harsh in my comments above. We all remember, I am sure, Gladstone's famous speech against the Reform Act of 1831 when he was the equivalent of of an American H.S. senior. It got him a seat in parliament at the age of 22, but even he agreed, in later years, that his position was a little extreme, though "there was, to my eyes, an element of the Anti-Christ about [it]".

This topic comes up every 6 months or so. The last one that I remember was in Jan of this year, when Ghozt thought that he had mated two disparate mantids: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=20264&amp;st=0

By far the best post in that thread was Pragmatic hominid's monosyllabic "why?" To which somebody replied, "Why not?" "If you think that atomic weapons are a threat to mankind, why do you continue to stockpile them?" "Why not?" "Why are you sticking your hand in that hole in the rocks that obviously has an unhappy rattler in it?" "Why not? Here, hold my beer."

So you cross breed. If you are a primitive Christian, you are frustrating God's creation. If you are scientifically oriented, you are taking two species with a genome that specifically fits each species to its environment and jumbling them randomly together.

You mentioned, What, that interbreeding is not unusual in nature. Certainly it is not, but the production of a hybrid is rare indeed, because the hybrid is not adapted to its environment. In captivity, though, weak nymphs that would not survive in nature, may be preserved.

I think that many advocates of cross breeding believe that a mantis so produced will be "a cool new species". It almost certainly will not. Look at the crosses between dogs, coyotes and wolves. Cool new species? No, they are neither shin nor Shinola. The Cichlasoma hybrids that I mentioned in the previous thread had nothing to commend them physically and, thankfully, were unable to cross breed in F1. Will all breeders of such freaks be responsible and maintain them separately? The fool who produced these sports was trying to sell them at a national convention! "Why not?"

And that's that, except to add, What, that your internet citations are the most interesting and to the point that i have seen on this forum, even if you are of the devil's party.


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## What (Aug 9, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> "Why not?" And that's that, except to add, What, that your internet citations are the most interesting and to the point that i have seen on this forum, even if you are of the devil's party.


I think we would be able to agree on this matter, or at least agree that each other's position is sound, if we were talking verbally. The keeping/breeding of hybrids is a complex matter with many caveats needing to be met to "ensure safety" through the process and discourage the distribution of them. I agree that having people foolishly backcross hybrid offspring into pure stock which is then sold as pure stock is a bad thing, but it is those actions that are bad not hybrids themselves.

I wouldnt be too surprised if someone made a real effort that they could end up with an consistent true breeding hybrid...it might even look interesting, who knows. Thankfully...mantids are bugs and unlike mammalian or reptilian hybrids people are unlikely to care about them being thrust (lovingly  ) into a freezer. Any offspring that are not quite as healthy as they could be, not as interesting as they could be, deformed, or that you do not have space for should have just such an experience... Hopefully anyone who knows enough about their captives to be attempting hybridization will have enough sense to follow that simple rule.

As another aside about hybrids and hobbies, the Psalmopoeus iminia x cambridgei tarantula matings that have occurred over time in the T hobby have all (to my knowledge) resulted in quite similar looking offspring. I picked up this female that was being sold with a sibling male via another SoCal person and I have seen photos of 3-4 other adults. Quite pretty Ts, really.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 10, 2011)

Just a brief note to thank the 23 members who p.m.'d me to point out that Gladsone (b.December, 1809) was 21 at the time of this speach which was delivered, of course , to the Oxford Union. I made the rare and often disastrous mistake of quoting from memory.As a penance, though a very pleasant one, I have set myself to reread his biography by Roy Jenkinsons.


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## GreenOasis (Aug 10, 2011)

From what I have learned on here, there has already been an issue of cross-breeding with the Shields (prior to my keeping them) by a certain person who, whether by lack of knowledge or lack of concern, either accidentally or intentionally bred two closely-related (and almost indistinguishable) Rhombodera sp. together. I feel like, if it made the species stronger, that might be a good thing for the hobbyists who keep them for pets, but...there are so many purists in the world of mantids, it was a completely irresponsible thing to do, and then, if they sold off those nymphs as "pure" (because they are afraid people won't want them any other way), then that really compounds the issue and that is why hybridizing is so unwelcome here.

Cynics, like Phil, will say that hybridizing is in no way responsible and tantamount to "playing God"...and all that results from it are horrible abonimations that should be immediately destroyed,

Others will argue the other side and say, "Well, it could be a good thing when done responsibly." Or, "It happens in the wild anyway, look at the Polar Grizzlies, Wolf-Coyotes &amp; intergraded snakes of all kinds!"

I will just say that is HAS been done and WILL be done, time &amp; time again. The only way any respect for hybridizing will be gained is if it is done with respect to the science involved, with detailed notes taken and absolute security &amp; disclosure of the offspring produced.

When it is done for the sake of $$$ because you just happen to have ONLY females of this one species, and really want to mate it...When you are then overcome with WAY too many mixed-genetics offspring and want to sell or distribute them (but without disclosing their mixed genetics)...that is where the problem arises. And it is a serious problem.

We take chances by keeping these guys as it is, and we tread a very thin line with gov officials, it only takes a few sloppy individuals to accidentally (or purposefully) release them to ruin the whole hobby for the rest of us.

These problems also plague the reptile hobby, but fortunately, reptile folks who engage in irresponsible acts such as those are quickly black-listed by the community and they are lucky to be able to get rid of anything they produce. On the other hand, those who do hybridize and take meticulous notes &amp; are very upfront about it, do well in the reptile community and are sought out by those who don't mind such "freaks".

I think the same would be true here, if given the chance to occur.

Just my two cents.


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## Ntsees (Aug 10, 2011)

+1 to the above post.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 11, 2011)

*"Cynics, like Phil, will say that hybridizing is in no way responsible and tantamount to "playing God"...and all that results from it are horrible abonimations that should be immediately destroyed,"*

A little presumptuous of you to characterize me, isn't it Green Oasis? I don't remember ever referring to anything as a "horrible abonimation", and I wonder if you have any idea what a cynic is. It seems unlikely that you are talking of Diogenes, in his barrel, one of the best known Greek Cynic philosophers, who believed that the goal of life is happiness, which is to live in agreement with Nature. That leaves us with the current American definition which is "a person who believes that selfishness motivates human actions."

Well, no, not I. You will remember that you filled numerous posts indicting Frey for the fact that USPS had failed to deliver her package to you on time. Frey wanted to reimburse you, although in my opinion you did not deserve it, and finally I reimbursed you, at her expense, in cash, for the total of the mantids and postage. The last time I looked, you had never acknowledged this payment, so members would believe, until now, that no compensation had been made. Do I consider that selfishness on your part? A cynic, by definition, would, but not I.

You are one of what we used to call "the walking wounded" worrying about the effects of non existent genetically modified wheat and attempts to counsel your child instead of hitting him (I feel comfortable mentioning these things since you have posted them here in the past) and trying to lay your reflexive anger on others. (I have an email from you, stating that $60 worth of B. mendica would be an appropriate compensation for your $50.00 loss) I have no rebuke or advice for you, Green Oasis. You are what you are and even if someone could help you, I have seen no evidence that you would accept it.

But please don't call me a cynic! In fact, don't feel the need to mention me at all!


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## d17oug18 (Aug 11, 2011)

Snap-snapish-snappy-snap!!!! =) Now that was a well thought out 3 paragraphs, i just wanted to add that i think most people dont remember to add/fix/remove feedback when needed. If i knew what kinda deals people where making... =D i think i took the low road on that. This thread is basicly 50/50 on hybridizing mantids, and i dont think its going to change. Someones going to have to say something outside the box and really out there for people to open there eyes to another opinion they ALREADY feel is fact in there minds. Beliefs never change, Ideas constantly do. We should all live our lives of off ideas dont you think?


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## MantidLord (Aug 11, 2011)

I agree with GreenOasis completely. And Phil, despite her words directed to you or "describing" you, I wouldn't take it so seriously as to bring up other unnrelated matters (e.g., the Frey ordeal).


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 11, 2011)

Thanks for the advice, Mantidlord, I shall certainly give it the consideration it deserves.. Are you as generous in instructing your teachers, your parents? I foresee a really interesting academic career ahead for you!


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## MantidLord (Aug 12, 2011)

Nope! I only "instruct" the poor souls who take what someone says about them on the internet too seriously    

You should lighten up, don't fit the stereotype of egotistical scientists. I respect your input on these forums Phil, but when you try to impose on others or worse personally insult them, you're doing yourself an injustice.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 12, 2011)

MantidLord said:


> Nope! I only "instruct" the poor souls who take what someone says about them on the internet too seriously
> 
> You should lighten up, don't fit the stereotype of egotistical scientists. I respect your input on these forums Phil, but when you try to impose on others or worse personally insult them, you're doing yourself an injustice.


Forgive me for saying so, but there is something quite cute about your confident, high school judgments! I'm still recovering from your judgement about when abortion is murder and when something else! Still, Sunny, at 17, bullies me all the time, though she is seriously bright (and seriously cute). BTW, I am not a scientist, not even a stereotypical one. What ever gave you that mistaken idea? Certainly not I.


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## MantidLord (Aug 12, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> Forgive me for saying so, but there is something quite cute about your confident, high school judgments! I'm still recovering from your judgement about when abortion is murder and when something else! Still, Sunny, at 17, bullies me all the time, though she is seriously bright (and seriously cute). BTW, I am not a scientist, not even a stereotypical one. What ever gave you that mistaken idea? Certainly not I.


Hmmm I'm still recovering from the many times you insist I made such comments.

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=12377&amp;st=80

Go ahead and read the first line of the first post on the page. Never said abortion was murder did I? Didn't think so.

Anyway, I just find it extremely interesting that you often target someone's personal attributes when they are unrelated to an argument, for example, someone's english. Or how you bring up irrelevant things in a discussion (the Frey thread and abortion), your off topic rants are sometimes mildly amusing, but in situations like this, please stick to the topic.

And judgements are judgements, regardless of high school or college. However I'm making observations that others have also made about your behavior, so it can't just be a high school thing. Oh, and yes I spell "judgements" with the extra "e" so you don't find something ridiculous to criticize when you reply to this.

Hmmm not a scientist, just an average guy with a doctorate I assume, fair enough. I apologize for the early assumption, but my advice about having a big ego remains the same. But to answer your question (and to inflate your ego), you're broad knowledge on biological processes and connections with other scientists (as well as you yourself having a doctorate) led me to believe you were a scientist.


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## Malti (Aug 12, 2011)

back to hybrids. A short time ago I had a whole stock of pigeons, and cause when you add food to them they multiple like crazy, I was being overrun. so I build this other cage and threw in a bunch of youngsters, of mixed species together. The species where Homer (aka racing pigeon, who were bred to go back to the nest from very far away places, with moderate maternal instincts), Majorkin pigeons (small in size but faster fliers, and with good maternal instincts), Magpies (moderate maternal instincts + unique colouring), fantail (unique feathering, + good maternal instincts) and a pair of big pigeons (don't know the name, but they're double the size of normal ones) and some collared doves(very calm species).

what I noticed was that for the first few months, they continued to breed "pure" until various young ones ended up as adult(those that didn't end up as broth) with "no mate" started to breed with others, and the amazing thing was that they took the good traits of each breed - hatching rate was over 95% except for the big ones, which never bred for me - pity I never tested the homer Xbreeds, due to no time for training etc.

in conclusion, who said hybrids are always not viable and better than the parent stock? (same thing applies to other birds aswell - the only drawback is fertility when there is a bigger leap in species, like canary x Greenfinch/linnet/etc)


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## patrickfraser (Aug 12, 2011)

BLAH BLAH BLAH. If you don't have anything nice to say, visit mantidforums.net. Has anyone heard of the word, petty? Well I have and all I can offer is pity.


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## Malti (Aug 12, 2011)

patrickfraser said:


> BLAH BLAH BLAH. If you don't have anything nice to say, visit mantidforums.net. Has anyone heard of the word, petty? Well I have and all I can offer is pity.


is that directed to me?


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm glad that i was wrong in thinking that you believed that abortion deserves the death penalty or life imprisonment, that must have been some other young Christian lad.

I glanced at that old thread, though and was impressed, first by your anger and secondly by your insulting remarks. You actually called PG a hypocrite! That is very naughty.I, On the other hand, I never call anyone anything insulting, ever.

Sometimes, when the pain is particularly irritating (not even a noble war wound, I'm afraid, just a rather frazzled sciatic nerve), I am shorter than i would prefer with folks who, like a recent member, insult me or say something that amounts to misinformation.. This is not and never can be an excuse, but it is a reason.

I have no idea of why you are so belligerent and rude and fear that it may hurt yr academic career, unless you learn the basics of argument. There is something, though, that I can do, and that is to decline to engage you in any future conversation. This is not done out of anger or to insult you, it is simply a recognition of the fact that we are operating on two very different wavelengths.


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## Malti (Aug 12, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> I'm glad that i was wrong in thinking that you believed that abortion deserves the death penalty or life imprisonment, that must have been some other young Christian lad.


not wanting to deviate the thread more, but stop stereotyping this. It is true that I am Christian, and believe abortion is a bad thing, but so do some of my other friends which are muslim, hindu, and whatever other religion they are. And I'm not some devout brainwashed christian, its just a personal opinion.

back to topic - I wouldn't mind Xbreeds as long as the breeder states it so, esp if they're some real cool looking animals.


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## MantidLord (Aug 12, 2011)

Phil, once again you bring up irrelevant things in a thread (what I said to PG) and you insult my character. But unlike you, I couldn't care less what you think you know about me. How am I rude when I told you clearly that I respect your opinion? Hm, apparently you don't know the definition. But whatever the case, I'm done trying to speak nonsense into someone who is clearly the belligerent and conflict seeking individual. Have a nice life Phil, I know I will in college (and I mention college because you seem so adamant about my academic life as well as my religion. Again, focusing on personal issues. You need help man, but I still respect the information you put out there, just not your conduct and misguided opinions.


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## psyconiko (Aug 31, 2011)

I am sorry I have not read much of the previous thread :lol: .

Unfortunately my Popa male got eaten(I forgot about him...).So I could not mate him with my Popa sp female.

But I am a bit stubborn so I just mated a Creo elongata male(long wing tail) with a Creo pictipennis female.He was in for sure!

Lets wait and see now.

Thank you all for your advice!


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## mykey14 (Sep 4, 2011)

Is it possible to get sperm/semen from a male mantis and then impregnate a female mantis of a different species?


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 4, 2011)

I I don't think that this should be too difficult. Sacrifice the male by dissecting out the posterior segments while he is alive but immobilized, under a dissecting microsocope to remove one or more fresh spermatophers with a flexiible micropipette containing normal saline to simulate the male aedeagus. After discarding the male, place the female on the microscop stage and insert the tip of the micropipette into the genital chamber and finally into the spermatheca and express the fluid containing the spematophores. The pipette can then be withdrawn.

Since they are different species, the chances of the male's sperm fertalizing the female's "eggs' is very remote, but you should have a lot of fun, and several dead mantises, while trying. :lol: 

Or to put it another way, No way!


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## massaman (Sep 4, 2011)

so to make this post short dont try this at home kids unless under the supervision of a expert in genetics!

evolution revolution

cyborg insects


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## psyconiko (Sep 8, 2011)

Here is the result:

Creobroter pictipennis ooth


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## psyconiko (Sep 8, 2011)

Creobroter pictipennis female/Creobroter pictipennis male:


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## psyconiko (Sep 8, 2011)

I remember Creobroter elongata ooth being orange colored.

Would that means that the general color of the ooth is given by male genes?


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 9, 2011)

No, the proteinaceous material that comprises the ooth is generated purely by the female.

Am I right in thinking that the cross bred nymphs have not hatched yet? Keep us informed! If they do hatch, then I imagine that you will cross the F1 nymphs. If they have fertile offspring, what will you do then?


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## psyconiko (Sep 9, 2011)

Thanks!

No hatch yet the ooth is 2 to 3 days old.

I will keep you informed for sure!

What would I do then?Give it a name.What do you think of "Creobroter elongpennis"?A little bit too hard maybe...

.


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## gripen (Sep 25, 2011)

any hatch yet?


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 25, 2011)

gripen said:


> any hatch yet?


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## psyconiko (Sep 25, 2011)

nope,soon I hope!


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## ShieldMantid1997 (Sep 26, 2011)

or creobroter nikkko(insert scientific ending) :stuart: if those hatch you could sell them for a good amount of $$. The coolest cross breed would be two mantis of a completely different genus.


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## psyconiko (Oct 8, 2011)

Ok guys!

One ooth hatched!Nymphs are black??!!Just like Pseudocreobroter but smaller.I knew it would work.

I will post pictures later!Me happy!


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 8, 2011)

Nikko: For my money, you are one of the best and most dedicated breeders around, and I am seriously surprised to see that your experiment (Creobroter pictipennis/C. elongata, right?), but you have an even steeper hurdle to climb in order to establish a viable hybrid. Usually, in crosses like this, the F1 generation will successfully cross back to the parents, though the parents In this case may well be dead before the F1 generation matures, but they will not successfully interbreed. If they should, by some extremely unlikely chance, produce offspring, though (and i am on record as believing that the parents would not produce offspring  ) you will not have a new species but a hybrid.which does not rate a new binomial. If, (shudder) you do get an F2 generation, what do you plan to do with them?


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## Ntsees (Oct 8, 2011)

A possible situation for mantids in general: the female of the species is parthenogenic and it is mated with another species. Sperm is stored in the female via successful male connection or artificially. Oothecae is produced and only hatches a few nymphs. It would be difficult to determine if the nymphs were actual hybrids or the nymphs that hatched was due to the parthenogenetic nature of the species. Tricky unless you can bring the nymphs to adult to see the differences (if any).


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## massaman (Oct 8, 2011)

keeping them for personal use would be my guess but would not want them to be sold but its up to him to do with them as he wishes and no one can tell him what to do with them personally and destroying them is not very wise either being they can be studied and what not!


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## MantidLord (Oct 10, 2011)

Post pictures! I forgot all about this thread until I reread everything, got upset with Phil, realized it was phil :tt2: , and then got interested in the topic again. I'm glad that you were able to pull it off and I hope you took detailed notes and documented everything! Keep us posted


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## psyconiko (Oct 10, 2011)

Creo pictipennis/elongata


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## massaman (Oct 10, 2011)

hope you dont expect to be breeding them though there is a very high chance they will be sterile and unable to breed if its indeed a hybrid!


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 10, 2011)

Very interesting Niki! The nymphs seem to favor Creobroter elongata more than C. pictipennis, particularly in the length of the antennae and also the coloration, if I remember correctly. Which species was the mother?


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## patrickfraser (Oct 11, 2011)

Maybe Creobroter elongapennis?.  :lol:


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## psyconiko (Oct 11, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> Very interesting Niki! The nymphs seem to favor Creobroter elongata more than C. pictipennis, particularly in the length of the antennae and also the coloration, if I remember correctly. Which species was the mother?


The mother was a pictipennis.I am not ver familiar with elongata so I really cannot tell for now they are too small...I mean we would need a microscope maybe....But I keep breeding pictipennis and have some fresh L1 to compare with.

From my first observation they seem darker than pictipennis.Also I noticed Creo nymphs do not behave exactly the same depending on the Creo species.

For example I found that C.gemmatus were faster and more agressive than pictipennis,elongata are extremely peaceful with each others,apicalis dont move much/not very communal, meleagris tend to be more jumpy.....I could go along.

So regarding behavior these nymphs are very calm almost lethargic.I am already facing some random deaths...

But they should grow fast and time will tell!

I keep them in a sealed terra,no escape/contamination.

Anyway they are alive...Alive!!!!!(Hey was not Dr Frankentein from Geneva?)


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## minard734 (Nov 8, 2011)

Bump. I would be interested in hybridization but not to sell. I'd only except trades from friends (most of which aren't even on here). It would be interesting. Maybe a Stagmomantis hybrid should happen?  

S. Limbata x S. floridensis.... omg!!


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## gripen (Nov 8, 2011)

How are the nymphs? any updates?


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## ShieldMantid1997 (Nov 15, 2011)

Any luck?


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## massaman (Nov 16, 2011)

Creobroter elongata and the Creobroter. pictipennis are kind of the same thing so the breeding would work but may not work with all species of creobroters as some have different size and body issues,


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## psyconiko (Nov 16, 2011)

I have 7 hybrids subadult for now.But I am a bit disappointed(dont know what I was expecting anyway).They really look like pictipennis.I will post pictures when they are turning adult.


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## yen_saw (Nov 16, 2011)

Are they all females? If you have male, likely they are from the same species or just different subspecies.


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## psyconiko (Nov 16, 2011)

They are all subadults by now.I have males and females.


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## brancsikia (Nov 16, 2011)

No intermediate characters?

Like in this experiment:

The following article deals with possible hybridisation between species

Roy, R. &amp; E. Cherlonneix (2009) Systématique et biologie de Sphodromantis biocellata (Werner) (Mantodea, Mantidae). Bulletin de la Société entomologique de France 114(4): 389-400.

Summary

Systematics and biology of _Sphodromantis biocellata_ (Werner) (Mantodea, Mantidae). _Sphodromantis biocellata_, distributed in the equatorial part of the coastal region of West Africa, is a remarkable species by the diversity of the spots on the fore coxae, what made it was described several times with different names, here confirmed or put as synonyms, with land observations and rearings, which have besides shown that it could give hybrids with _S. lineola pinguis_.







The markings on the fore coxae of the hybrids is intermediary and variable concerning the number and size of the coloured spots. Matings between hybrid males and hybrid females occured but the females did not lay oothecae. It was found that no eggs have developed in the females abdomen.


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## minard734 (Nov 16, 2011)

Just chill guys. If he doesn't let these guys out, then it is fine. This is a good thing.


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## massaman (Nov 16, 2011)

you dont understand ryan there is reasons why not to sell such species if they are true hybrids as it could be a disaster in one aspect or another!


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## massaman (Nov 16, 2011)

Hybrid Infertility is most likely in any attempt with interbreeding!

http://www.macroevol...ml#.TsRNKfKz7To

Not all Hybrids are infertile. But genetic chromosome structures play a big role.

Some weird facts

Ligers and other pantherine hybrids are not all infertile, mostly males are but so far all females have been know to be fertile. This is also the case with domestic cats to other wild cat species(look up Bengal cats)

The different species of zebra have not been able to hybridize within them selves, yet can with of equines. And as before, equine hybrid males are usually sterile, while females have been know to be fertile.

Reptiles produce fertile hybrids quite regularly, through human breeding of the different species mostly but occur naturally as well.

Then lets not forget other domestic live stock, there are numerous hybrid bovine(cattle) which are all fertile.


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 17, 2011)

yen_saw said:


> Are they all females? If you have male, likely they are from the same species or just different subspecies.


Yes, this is a really important point that I have failed to mention in past discussions, that true F1 hybrids are often all of the same sex (darn!).. The same thing applies to other critters. Way back in my college days we looked at crossbreeds between gamefowl on the prairie. Here is a snippet from the Wikipedia article on gamebird crosses: "When male chickens inseminated female turkeys, both male and female embryos form, but the males are much less viable and usually die in the early stages of development. When male turkeys inseminated female chickens, no hybrids resulted although the unfertilised chicken eggs began to divide. According to Olson[20]turkey-chicken crosses produced all males."

By the same token, viable offspring from an F1 sibling mating generally confirms the same thing, that the parental generation were the same species or subspecies.

@ Nikko: You make an excellent point about the fact that the "hybrids" are not very exciting. Hobbyists often think that a cross between two different species will look spectacular, but usually they don't. There is nothing very special looking about a mule! In nature, F1 male hybrids of prairie chickens cannot inflate their brightly colored airsacs very well during their mating dance, and the females say, "Thanks, but no thanks".


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## ShieldMantid1997 (Nov 20, 2011)

NIkkko, how are they?


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## psyconiko (Nov 20, 2011)

Waiting for the final molt.


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## minard734 (Nov 26, 2011)

Any results yet? I wanna see so bad!


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## psyconiko (Nov 26, 2011)

I got an adult female 2 days ago.The colors are a bit different.The usual yellow spot is pink.I took some pictures but they are not good enough.One thing for sure I can see the difference!!I think I only got females...

I will post pictures in a few hours.


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## psyconiko (Nov 27, 2011)

The best I can do for now.I am aware the difference is not obvious but I have a really cheezy cam...I will post some better ones soon!

Can you see the difference?


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## Ntsees (Nov 27, 2011)

Are there differences in the physical design patterns (for example the spots in the forearms in the mantids in Brancsikia's reply) besides color?


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## psyconiko (Nov 28, 2011)

Ntsees said:


> Are there differences in the physical design patterns (for example the spots in the forearms in the mantids in Brancsikia's reply) besides color?


No I do not see any difference in the physical pattern.I noticed yesterday the back of the head is of a different color.But I have 4 Sphodro species in culture so I will try some interbreeding with them by next year.

It looks more fun than Creos!


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