# Psuedocreobotra wahlbergii



## PhilinYuma (Sep 10, 2011)

This will be an ongoing thread on raising and, I hope, breeding P. wahlbergii.

I got rwo ooths from Frey on August 10th. They were wre typical long, thin flower mantis type ooths, dark brown and about 3cm long. I put them in a hatching chamber at 80F/80%RF and both hatched about 100 tiny, sparkly black nymphs on 082011. they were very active and waved their raptorial claws at each other when they met which may have ben a territorial or recognition signal. the "sparkle' would seem to make them more obvious to predators, but in fact acts as a a form of "dazzle' or disruptive camouflage, especially when the nypns are moving.

I started the nymphs on a mixture of wild mels and hydei on the second day. I made the mistake of keeping over 100 nymphs in an extended 1gallon plastic jug with a standard cloth top. They would do better in a 12'cube.

The nymphs started molting to L2 around 092981 at 80F/45%RH and took at least five days tfor the whole bunch to molt, and then there were a few outliers. The L2s are still black, but with white markings and with much less "glitter". At L2 I started them on a mixture of hydei and small HFs.

Over the past few days, starting at about 090611, they have started moulting to L3 timing the molt for when I made shipments. As of 091011, many are still at L2.

To be continued!


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## gripen (Sep 10, 2011)

Sounds great I have always wanted this species but I don't have the capacity to keep them right now. I will enjoy watching this thread. Can you get us any pics?


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## twolfe (Sep 10, 2011)

I've been raising mine in 80 ounce containers (4 to one enclosure) with some ivy glued to the lid and a silk flower glued to the side. I don't think my temperature and humidity guages are very accurate. So, I won't bother reporting on that as I have three different brands and placed them all in the same enclosure, and there is a huge difference. But I have been spraying my nymphs more than my mendicas but less than other nymph species, and I haven't lost any while molting yet.

Mine wave their raptorial claws at me whenever I remove the lid. They are really cute little nymphs.

Here are some photos.

L1







L2






L3


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## gripen (Sep 10, 2011)

Wow great photos. Are these guys ant mimics when young. From the videos I have seen these guys don't seem very people friendly always posing and flying.


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## patrickfraser (Sep 10, 2011)

Christmas came early and I got just what I wanted! :wub: Thanks Santa! :santa: I absolutely ADORE them.


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## mantidsaresweet (Sep 11, 2011)

Have 11 of these nymphs right now from Phil and will also be reporting on this thread about my experiences caring for and breeding them.

Currently 6 are L3 and 5 are L2. Housing them all in separate containers because I don't want to risk any of them being eaten as I don't have a very high number to work with right now.

Looking forward to raising these guys and they look sweet! Will be posting pictures of them soon. This is going to be a good thread :lol: 

Oh and sweet pics Tammy, it would be great if you took a picture like that for each instar. You can really see the changes the mantis goes through.


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## sporeworld (Sep 11, 2011)

I also have three (I know, so lonely). I wasn't brave enough to put them on House Flies at L2 (nice, Phil).

I'm keeping them in (arguably) poor conditions. About 72F on average, and humidity in the form of the occasional spritz (so 45-80RH in my office). And somewhat irregular hours of daylight, too. But I'm gambling that, as with Creos, they are more tollerant than previously reported. (Very) well fed, and (very) clean enclosures. So, it'll be interesting to see the differences...


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## twolfe (Sep 16, 2011)

I tried feeding small houseflies to my L3s but haven't noticed them catching any yet.

I found evidence that the first of my P. wahlbergii had molted again. It's an enclosure where I keep three together to keep better track of them. (These are the ones I use as mantis models.)

This should be an L4. These guys are still pretty small. At L1 and L2 the nymphs wouldn't sit still. I was lucky if I could take a photo or two before it took off. Today this one just sat and looked at the camera for the longest time.


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## patrickfraser (Sep 16, 2011)

Getting pretty. The glossy black is pretty, but I want color. They are all movers and shakers and always on the move.


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## jrh3 (Sep 16, 2011)

nice pics


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## gripen (Sep 16, 2011)

Wow some great pix. Phil are you still planning on using this forum as a care sheet/ journal for this species?


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## Colorcham427 (Sep 19, 2011)

these pix are phenomenal!!! wow!!! lol

Phil, will you ever be selling some yellow orchids for Frey????


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## patrickfraser (Sep 19, 2011)

I've got an L4! :wub: :clap: Sooo cute and VERY active.


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## RevWillie (Sep 20, 2011)

Great photo Tammy - it's so shiny, like an enameled figure! unk:


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## agent A (Sep 20, 2011)

good luck to you all!!! if anyone has any extras let me know, i think i want to retry these after my disasterous first attempt

as you know i believe persistence pays, as evidenced with my recent pseudoharpax success after 5 failures


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## patrickfraser (Sep 20, 2011)

I know what you mean about failures with the gambians. I had 2 ooths and multiple nymphs and all I have left is an adult female. oh well. I have had my eye on these guys forever. Hopefully with these going around and doing well they will be more widely available. My L4 grabbed and ate a BB this morning. I thought I'd just try it out and, to my astonishment, it was breakfast time! I took a couple pics and will post when i get home. They aren't the best...We'll leave that to Tammy and Precarious. :blush: 

Like I said... :lol:


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## Termite48 (Sep 21, 2011)

Thanks to all who have shared what you have about this fine species. Phil, please keep it up for us. Tammy, what nice pics of some cooperative models! Good luck with them all.


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## mantidsaresweet (Sep 22, 2011)

Here are a few pics of my little guys, all are at L3. Not the greatest of pics but they show the set ups I'm currently housing them in and the size of the wings of the moth that the little on ate. The moth was longer than the mantis but it still ate it so I'd say these are pretty aggressive!

Well enjoy :lol:


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## twolfe (Sep 22, 2011)

Mantidsaresweet, it's always nice to see someone else's photos and set ups.

I'm still raising mine communally but have them separated in 3 containers. I moved one group to a net enclosure in preparation for a trip. I hope they do OK if they have to molt. I really love this species.

I noticed that mine have gotten a lot lighter but I haven't seen any skins in the containers with the L4s. So, I think that my L4s have lightened quite a bit. They look similar to Patrick's L4's. The green is really showing up now.


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## twolfe (Oct 12, 2011)

While I was away in Colorado for a 12 day photo shoot, some of my wahlbergii nymphs molted. I photographed one a few days ago. This should be L5. When I left, I think I had 16 and was happy to see that 15 of them survived while I was away. Before I left, I put a few of them in enclosures by themselves. I still have 7 living together in a net enclosure.

L5


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## patrickfraser (Oct 14, 2011)

OMG! I LOVE the little beasties! :wub: I can't wait to see their "BIG" attitude!


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## twolfe (Oct 14, 2011)

Patrick, great pose! Do you think that is an L5 now?


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## patrickfraser (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm not completely sure. :huh: I have already lost track and I'm not sure exactly what instar they were when I received them.

These things are ridiculous! So small, yet so much ferocity. I knew I'd love them. Their movements are so animated and the threats are just over the edge. I am also a MAJOR fan of the spikes. I just don't like when they eat and the spikes shrink, but the freshly molted is super spikey.

I have 8/8 that were received and all are eating and molting without any problems.


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## twolfe (Oct 21, 2011)

I'm only feeding blue bottle flies to my p. wahlbergii nymphs nowadays. They are still very cute and animated.Many of my nymphs molted this week, and I decided to try to photograph a couple since I won't have the opportunity again until November. However, the one I chose to model for me didn't want its picture taken. I think this nymph may be an L6 now. I was keeping track of the instar for some I kept in a separate container, but when I went on a 12 day photo shoot at the end of Sept/beginning of October, I lost track of which instar. You can see patterns on the wing buds. I'd love if someone can confirm if this is an L6.


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## guapoalto049 (Oct 21, 2011)

Not sure of the specific number, but it is for sure a subadult male. The development of the wingbuds is evident, and the #9 pattern is already visible.

What a stud!


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## twolfe (Oct 21, 2011)

So the 7th instar is an adult for most males, right? Then that would make the L6 instar correct. Do the females also have the # 9 pattern?

This species sure grows up fast. I just photographed these guys as L1 on August 24.

I moved this guy out of the net enclosure today where he had been living with 6 others, but I think at least one other is the same size.

I found some photos on Flickr where someone labeled a subadult male an L6 and then on another photo an L7. I think it was the same photographer.


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## sporeworld (Oct 22, 2011)

Wow! I never noticed the patterns on the wings as subadults. That's awesome!


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## patrickfraser (Oct 22, 2011)

There are pictures of the different instars here, http://mantisonline.de/index.php?lan=en&amp;show=species_mantids_view&amp;content=a:6:{s:7:%22subshow%22;s:15:%22species_mantids%22;s:10:%22level_left%22;s:3:%22all%22;s:5:%22genus%22;s:15:%22pseudocreobotra%22;s:18:%22level_left_species%22;s:5:%22index%22;s:7:%22species%22;s:10:%22wahlbergii%22;s:23:%22level_left_species_mode%22;s:8:%22pictures%22;}


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## twolfe (Nov 15, 2011)

I just had my second male molt to an adult tonight. I'm wondering how their siblings and cousins being raised by other forum members are doing? Does anyone else have any adults yet? It might be a while before any of my females molt to adults.


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## patrickfraser (Nov 15, 2011)

No adults here, yet. I still have 8/8 and they are all doing well. :clap:


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## patrickfraser (Nov 15, 2011)

Just wondering....I have read the females are ready to mate after 4 weeks as adult, but require one extra molt than the males. Should this be a case of slowing the males/speeding the females? I still have a hard time counting the segments and will get a better idea what I'm working with. Time to break out the loupe. :detective: 

I also had a weird thing happen this morning. One of them just didn't want to be bothered and when I tried to get it onto my hand, it really went for my finger and tried to give it a gnaw. When i pulled away, i smelled something and noticed it had spit out some liquid that it was sucking back in. I didn't want to get my nose too close for fear of having a wahlbergii piercing. :lol: Has anyone ever noticed such a thing?


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## twolfe (Nov 15, 2011)

I have a hard time counting the segments. I could tell two of mine were males because of the antennae. My male orchid and b. Mendicas matured faster than the females. However, the males lived long enough to mate with the females. So, I don't know if it's an issue, but perhaps someone else who has bred them can let us know. It's too late for me to slow my males anyway...

Strange about the liquid. I take mine out to photograph them and when I clean the enclosures. I have to laugh because mine readily climb onto my finger, and when it's time to put them back, I find it hard to get them off my finger. Last night one held on while I fed everyone. The two that are adults don't seem as friendly now.


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## patrickfraser (Nov 15, 2011)

I agree. These things are clingers. If they don't want to budge...they won't. Whether it's on you or on their lid, they can really hunker down and hold their ground... *literally!* :lol:


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## twolfe (Nov 16, 2011)

Two more of mine molted to adults today: one male and my first female. I photographed one of them in process of molting. A few more didn't eat today and should molt in the next day or two.


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## jcal (Nov 20, 2011)

Great looking species. Thanks for the photos and updates. These have quickly become one of my favorite mantis!


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## agent A (Nov 20, 2011)

these guys are so cool and very cute!!! when i kept mine i only got 1 to successfully become adult  

i will have to retry these guys one of these days

i love them! the only male to become adult never flew but had a horrible attitude and it was funny lol


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## patrickfraser (Nov 20, 2011)

OK..So I got the photos done. I am pretty proud of myself. It looks like I have 5 girls and 3 boys. What do you think? The boys look like they should be molting very shortly. Sorry for so many photos, but I wanted to show the different colors.

Female 1






Female 2






Female 3











Female 4






Female 5






Male 1






Male 2






Male 3


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## twolfe (Nov 20, 2011)

Several of yours look close...especially your second male! One of your males is very green. I wonder if it will stay that way after it molts.

My 5th wahlbergii is molting right now. It's a female.


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## patrickfraser (Nov 20, 2011)

Maybe tonight's the night for male #2 of the #9 mantis.


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## agent A (Nov 20, 2011)

My only male to make it looked like #2 the day before his final molt, so I'd say likely he will molt soon


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## Ruaumoko (Nov 21, 2011)

Absolutely love this species,onto my first captive bred generation of them as well  

Have started a colour experiment over on the UK forums, when its compiled ill post a copy up in here.


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## patrickfraser (Nov 21, 2011)

WOOT WOOT! #2 is a man!. It just happened this evening. I am leaving him alone to dry and color up. It looks like it was a good last molt. :clap:


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## twolfe (Nov 21, 2011)

Congratulations Scott!


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## twolfe (Nov 22, 2011)

Ruaumoko, I read about your experiment on the UK forum. When you are done, it would be nice to see photos of your adults a few weeks after the final molt to see if there is a difference. Since you successfully bred yours, I'd love to get advice. e.g, how long did you wait before mating? How did you incubate your ooth?


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## agent A (Nov 22, 2011)

I wish I had these guys so bad!!! I'm looking for something cool, a bit challenging but is well worth the effort, these cuteys fit the bill!!!  congrats to everyone who is doing such a great job with them


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 22, 2011)

Yes indeed, Scott, congrats! It is very interesting that though all of the nymphs owned by Tammy, Scott and me were hatched on the same day, mine are stil subadults; not one has eclosed to adulthood. What is yr feeding schedule, Scott? I have been feeding mine one bee per day for the last month or so, but most of mine got off to a bad start. I foolishly sold or traded most of my stock before realizing that I had almost none left, and most of my ten were salvaged from among AWOLs on the walls and a pot with a few starving nymphs that, fortunately for me, had rolled under the bed  . The effect of food -- or lack of it -- on nymphs is of great interest to me, so I shall be interested to see if they are as prolific as other members'. I have always thought of flower mantids in nature as living on the top of bushes and snagging flying insects that get too close.Perhaps the white specklies on the wallies resemble some native flower, otherwise they would stick out like a sore thumb. Mine, however, tend to rest on the substrate, though each has a few palm fronds (bits of) to climb on. Also, like the Creobroters ("flesh eaters") that I have raised, their concept of "ambush predation" doesn't stop them from scampering after visible or audible (bees will often buzz in a loud and helpful way) prey and siezing them with those incredibly long raptorial arms.. Very different from, say, the Empusa style, which demands that the prey should come up and almost beg to be eaten. A very sedate and dignified bunch, they are.

@Young Alex: I was unclear when talking about "feeding bees". I meant, "feeding bees to mantids". As you know, bees normally eat their own honey (regularly stolen by humans who profess to love them so much), thouh honey bees are often fed coern syrup instead, a fact that sends my Sunny into a rage. I find, though, that if bees are not eaten fairly quickly, they die either of exhaustion or homesickness.

And when I get ooths from mine, I shall absolutely send you some nymphs; that's a promise! And in case anyone wonders, I have known Young Alex through thick and thin both here and on two other forums where he uses cunningly different signatures, so he gets special consideration!


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## agent A (Nov 22, 2011)

U r on other forums? Interesting, never noticed u on the others I am on, maybe u use a different username and thanx for clearing up the bee issue my female popa also prefers fresh bees and I find the bees don't live long inside the house though it's too cold for bees now so it doesn't matter at the moment

Well keep us posted on the wahlbergii growth


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## patrickfraser (Nov 23, 2011)

As for feeding...Whatever I have and often. Mostly BB and GB. The 5 females are taking small dubias now and should be sub sub adult, as they are needing an extra molt and my other 2 males are pre-adult molt fasting. I haven't really been tracking what or how much. I keep them plump and will feed one or two flies to start. If they eat those I'll give them a couple more.

Here's a photo of my first adult male. I can't wait to see the girls as adults. :tt1:


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## lunarstorm (Nov 23, 2011)

Nice pic!


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## patrickfraser (Nov 23, 2011)

Thanks. Pardon the pun, but I seem to be getting the bugs out of my camera. Actually just learning to use it more accurately for what I need.


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## patrickfraser (Nov 23, 2011)

I wasn't sure how I would do with my first wallies, so I ordered some other nymphs to be on the safe side. These are, I think, L2-L3 now. I have decided to do a little color experiment of my own on these from the early instars. I have used colored plastic cups (green and fluorescent yellow) with cut of bottoms and have placed them on the deli cup like sleeves with a clear viewing panel. I have 2 of each color. On the 3rd group, I found some WILD wallpaper that I am hoping will influence their coloring. We have had this wallpaper FOREVER. From the looks of it, probably the 60's. The colors are amazing with pinks, purples, reds, and greens. I wallpapered a portion of the inside of the cup with a lot left clear so I can see them well. I have seen photos on the UK forum with purple colors on them. I am hoping to get something totally wild. Time will tell. I guess my first 8 nymphs can be a testament to their "true" uninhibited coloring, which is quite diverse, and be considered the control group.

Here is a photo of the color experiment deli cups. I actually used the wallpaper to wrap baby shower gifts for my friend. I actually just "wallpapered" the boxes. She had to peel it off. LOL. Made my present stand out and I received many compliments on my "cleverness".


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## agent A (Nov 23, 2011)

Very cool! I hope if I get some one day I can make different colors! I want to make an orange one because orange is my favorite color


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## patrickfraser (Nov 23, 2011)

If all goes well, we should be swimming in them in the near future. It is a fascinating creature.


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## agent A (Nov 23, 2011)

I agree! Awesome mantis! I take it they r prolific based on u saying u will be swimming in them, awesome! Keep us posted plz!!!


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## patrickfraser (Nov 23, 2011)

There are a couple people here raising them. I hope I am swimming in them, but in case I'm not, there's a good possibility of them being more available than previously. I think with the people raising them now that this species will be more widely available. I have wanted one since I started here. It was just earlier this year, but when i want something, I GOTTA HAVE IT. AND..I couldn't get it. It was torture. :hang: 

I see 2012 being the year of the wahlbergii. :clap:


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## twolfe (Dec 4, 2011)

All of my p. wahlbergii are now adults with perfect wings. The last two females just molted tonight. I ended up with 8 males and 6 females. I traded a pair of them and someone else contacted me about getting a male, but we haven't completed that transaction yet. I will be keeping the remaining ones for breeding stock for now. I am looking forward to breeding these so that I can have nymphs again!

Mantidsaresweet, Phil, &amp; Scott: How are yours doing? It's been a while since some of you have posted an update on yours.

These seem to be a really hardy species or else Phil got some great stock. (Thanks, Phil!) I think about 80% of my L1/L2s made it to adults. I accidentally injured an L1 or L2 nymph that eventually died, had one disappear when I was traveling and only had one bad molt that was likely due to getting knocked down by a sibling. I wish they were all this easy!


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## patrickfraser (Dec 4, 2011)

I now have 2 adult males with one male very close to molting and 1 female molted tonight (currently inflating her wings) with 4 to go very soon.

I have 5 younger nymphs (L3's?) that I am doing a color experiment with and I am sure I see some colors showing up already. :detective: I'm hoping to inhibit some major pinks and greens. Time will tell.


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## twolfe (Dec 4, 2011)

patrickfraser said:


> I now have 2 adult males with one male very close to molting and 1 female molted tonight (currently inflating her wings) with 4 to go very soon.
> 
> I have 5 younger nymphs (L3's?) that I am doing a color experiment with and I am sure I see some colors showing up already. :detective: I'm hoping to inhibit some major pinks and greens. Time will tell.


Congratulations! You now have an adult pair. I'm interested in seeing if your wahlbergii in your experiment maintain the colors after they molt to adults. Mine had different colored silk plants and had subtle color differences as nymphs. But a week or so after molting to adults, they all look the same to me. Perhaps I would still see subtle differences if I were to photograph each individual.


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## patrickfraser (Dec 4, 2011)

When I went in this morning, the female molted perfectly and the last male was molted and inflating his wings. So all is well with 4 females to go. All wingbuds are swollen so it should be happening soon.

I'll keep updated on color experiment as they get older. Not too much color, yet. But I do "think" I see some subtle color differences being revealed.


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## guapoalto049 (Dec 4, 2011)

Got a dozen nymphs at L1/L2, still have a dozen. Each has its own deli cup with a silk colored plant (either purple or pink) with reptibark in the bottom. I really soak the bark every morning. There are no noticeable differences in color, and the females are subadult and males are presubs. I could have gotten the fogger on them, but this was used to incubate the desiccata ooths (slightly more important than wally color!).

One problem is that my room has white carpet, white walls, etc. This could be preventing any coloration from forming. I need more tight parameters if any solid results are to be obtained.


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## patrickfraser (Dec 4, 2011)

I plan on doing more when and if I am able to get more nymphs to work with. On the uk forum the have a purple one. OOOOOOOOH!





.


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## patrickfraser (Dec 9, 2011)

I am up to 3 adult males and 2 adult females. No molting problems at all. The last 3 females of this bunch are not far behind. I see one of them "pulsing" tonight.

I was able to coax a threat pose out of my female. Here it is. Fierce little buggers.


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## lunarstorm (Dec 9, 2011)

Hah! Well done.


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## patrickfraser (Jan 3, 2012)

I was able to get a male onto a female last night about 7pm. I have seen no connection, but he's still riding today. I've added BB, just in case she gets peckish. The humidity is about 50% and temp is 75-80. They have both been adult for a month. Is there anything else I could do???


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## ismart (Jan 3, 2012)

Nope! Just let him enjoy the ride!


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## agent A (Jan 3, 2012)

Oh!!! U r trying to breed them, be sure to think of me when u have extra nymphs  good luck with them!!!


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## twolfe (Jan 3, 2012)

I would think they would eventually connect. Your temperature sounds like the range mine was in when I mated mine. Try another male if they don't connect. My females were really well fed so that they were interested in mating and not food.

I have sucessfully mated all 5 of my females, and they all have laid ooths now. They are really dark compared to Creos. Hopefully they are fertile.

It took me a while to get my first three females mated. It was about four weeks after they had molted to adults. The first male wouldn't even get on the female. So, I waited a day and then used a different male. The original male that wouldn't mate with my first female mated with another female a few days later. I noticed my last two females that molted to adults on December 3 were wagging the rear of their abdomens up and down about three weeks after they molted to adults. I put males in with them, and both pairs mated right away and stayed connected for a really long time. Since then, I've see my other females doing that now and then. Is that what you call pulsing? I don't know if they are calling and giving off pheromones or if that behavior means something else. But both females were receptive to mating right away.

After selling/trading 2 of my males, I was still left with 6 adult males. So, I left three of my males in with the females. I noticed two of the pairs mating again. At around 10 days of co-habitating, two of the males were eaten. Only the wings were left behind. I love the p. wahlbergii and hate losing any of them. But I need to reduce the number of enclosures and mantids because I'll be out of town for a while later this month.


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## agent A (Jan 3, 2012)

Tammy, if u r looking for someone to take a few wahlbergii nymphs off your hands let me know, I may want a few (by a few I mean half a dozen small wahlbergii nymphs at most, trying to cut back on mantises for a while but a few wahlbergii won't hurt)  

These guys r so cool!!!


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## patrickfraser (Jan 3, 2012)

He has gotten off the female and lives to ride again. Maybe next time there'll be some lovin'. :wub:


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## twolfe (Feb 5, 2012)

I'm very happy to report that I had a p. wahlbergii ooth hatch earlier this morning! Yeah. This was a medium sized ooth that was laid on 12-29. So far there are around 20 nymphs.

I had another ooth that hatched while I was away on a trip for 12 days, but it did not produce any live nymphs. All of my p. wahlbergii ooths were still misted when I was away.


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## frogparty (Feb 5, 2012)

I'd like to be on a list for some of those nymphs please!


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## patrickfraser (Feb 5, 2012)

I have been a failure.  All my males were chomped.


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## twolfe (Feb 5, 2012)

patrickfraser said:


> I have been a failure.  All my males were chomped.


Are you sure that none of them mated before they were eaten? I sold one male, traded a couple, and eventually the rest of mine were eaten. However, none of the females ate the males before mating. I even had two pair that lived together for 14 - 19 days before the females finally ate the male.Someone on the forum had posted that she only had males. Did you ever contact her to see if she still had them?


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## patrickfraser (Feb 5, 2012)

I had put the males and females together and they just seemed to want to ride. I never saw any connections, but it may have occured. The males rode females for 2-3 days before they disappeared. Only time will tell. I'll cross my fingers and toes.


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## twolfe (Feb 6, 2012)

A second p. wahlbergii hatched this morning!


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## agent A (Feb 6, 2012)

yay!!! let me know when they reach L2


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