# Large naturalistic enclosure observations



## tonyi

I have a 18x18x24 Exo Terra tank featuring a rainforest-like environment with lots of plants and an established fauna of various invertebrates (springtails, isopods, snails, etc.). When my orchid mantis reached L4, I decided to release her into the tank to observe her behavior in a large, more natural setting. Today marks the sixth day since she was introduced into the tank and so far it's been very interesting to watch her.

The first day, she was quite passive, mostly staying in one spot. She did, however, actively hunt fruit flies. After a few days, I've seen increasing levels of activity. It seems that she likes to move a bit, then stay in one position for a few hours. When she spots reoccuring movement, she will soon move in to investigate and set up a new "ambush". She is remarkably effective at hunting in this large enclosure. I've added two grasshoppers, several wild flies (about the size of house flies) and a number of other flying insects. At first, she stalked the grasshoppers and caught one of them. After that, she moved up in the enclosure, finding new spots among the branches and leaves close to the top. In two days, all the flying insects disappeared. She is now quite fat so I will probably introduce less flying insects from now on. I did not anticipate such a high success rate.

Another observation is that when the lights go out, she will quickly move to a nearby leaf and climb it to hang upside down for the rest of the night. In the morning, she climbs down and starts moving around again. Could this be an instinct to protect her from nocturnal predators that move along the ground? When she's getting thinner and presumably more hungry, this seems to trigger more movement and more active hunting. Now that she's fat, she tends to stick to one spot for longer periods of time. I've also seen her return to the exact same spots where she's caught prey before. She'll sit there for many hours but if nothing shows up, she moves on.

The vivarium has different thermal layers, caused by the lamp. Near the top, the daytime temperature is 27-28 degrees C (80-82F), at the bottom it's 24 C (75F). Right now she's spending more time in the higher levels but that may be caused by her recent feast on flying insects. Humidity is steady at 85-99%, except for when the ventilation fan is running (4 x 15 mins per day). This causes a bit of a dry breeze which removes stagnant air.

I thought I'd share my observations with you guys in case you're interested. Personally, I'm fascinated to see the differences compared to when she was living in her small nymph enclosure. Although my vivarium is not her natural habitat, it at least mimics several aspects of it, which could trigger more of her instincts.


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## [email protected]

That sounds real cool do you have any pictures?


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## tonyi

Chase said:


> That sounds real cool do you have any pictures?


Sure, here you go;


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## Rick

That is a very cool enclosure. It may be the temps that are causing her to move around so much. I don't think moving around so much would be a smart move in the wild as it just draws attention.


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## tonyi

> That is a very cool enclosure. It may be the temps that are causing her to move around so much. I don't think moving around so much would be a smart move in the wild as it just draws attention.


She doesn't move between the temperature layers and I haven't seen any difference between the days she's spent in the lower temperature areas as opposed to the higher. But it shouldn't be interpreted as constant movement, it's more a case of shifting locations to sit still in. The movement per se doesn't take more than a few minutes but it does seem to do the trick, as indicated by her successful eradication of all the prey I've put in the vivarium. Today I saw her sit still in one place for probably 5 hours, then she moved a bit and shortly thereafter she had caught a grasshopper. My guess is that she had seen the grasshopper move around in that area and moved in to set up a new "ambush" closer.


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## Katnapper

That's really cool, Tony... Thanks for letting us see.  Beautiful plants you have there in your vivarium... not to mention the mantis, lol! It is interesting that she's been so sucessful at finding and catching the food in such a comparitively large enclosure. It sounds like she probably is finding and eating most of the food you've put in there. One thing to consider though, is disappearence of the prey items due to other causes (natural death, etc.)... and there might be some that die and get lost in the foliage or underneath on the substrate. Just something to maybe think about and watch to make sure she's getting all the food you think she is.  Beautiful set-up!


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## tonyi

> is disappearence of the prey items due to other causes (natural death, etc.)... and there might be some that die and get lost in the foliage or underneath on the substrate. Just something to maybe think about and watch to make sure she's getting all the food you think she is.


I'm keeping an eye on her abdomen to see that she's eating. Then there's all the scattered pieces of insects I find around the places she's been sitting... :lol: 

On a side note, I thought it was interesting to see that grasshoppers seem able to live in my vivarium as well. They eat the moss and some small patches of fungal growth. Not that they had much time to try the culinary delights, they quickly became dinner themselves.


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## [email protected]

That is a nice mantis mansion better not let mine see that or they will revolt or go on hunger strikes.........


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## lectricblueyes

Hey, this is a GREAT post! It's funny how protective we get of our praying mantis's. We put them in these tiny deli cups or enclosures(if you want to call them that) where we systematically put fruit flies into their plastic cups knowing that those FF's have no chance of escape, and our mantids feast like kids pulling up to McDonald's to order value meals. No hunt, no challenge.. just.. here.. there's your food you don't even need to move!

Your setup seems so much more exciting. My mantids hang upside down on lids all day and yours actually hunt in a beautiful environment.

Sure, there is more risk but let's not forget.. these creatures survive in much worse environments than your vivarium. Heck, the only "danger" is... well... uh... lol umm.. I don't know? You can tell when a mantid is starving, I've seen this after molting where their abdomen isn't "hanging down".. they look flat. So, even that's not a challenge. You also state that your mantis is successful at catching even the flying insects. I'm not shocked, these creatures can go days without catching insects in the wild and I think the number of insects we feed them typically exceeds the number of insects they are exposed to in nature.

After reading this, I am definitely moving forward on my 12x12x12 exo-terra enclosures (even smaller than yours) when my mantids start hitting adulthood.

I created a post about 3 weeks ago, talking about the smallest of the Exo-Terra line of enclosures. I had quite a bit of advice:

HERE is the post.

Here are some of the comments:

"The larger terrarium-type enclosures aren't very practical for keeping most mantids. Individuals would be better kept in smaller, more mobile containers to allow for easier access to food sources, and greater ease in working with the mantids and enclosures."

"...honestly they may be too large for small mantid nymphs. I once desired fancy cages but found they just didn't work well for mantid keeping."

"...I'm certainly not going to tell you to scrap it, but these enclosure were designed for herps and not mantids."

"Keeping the glass fronts clean will be another issue. You can't clean them in place with glass cleaner, and you will have to remove everything to clean the sides."

"...I would put the smaller adult mantids in 32 oz deli cups, the larger species in 2.5 gallon tanks."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any way, let me ask my two questions:

1. With the front-opening enclosures, do you have problems with escapees?

2. Cleaning, is it a major issue cleaning these out?

Overall, it seems like your experiment was a success. You said before that the vivarium is not an easy solution like the cups. I think the cups do make life easier for feeding mantids. I think I'll always be keeping nymphs in cups and only have the larger adults in my exo's. Both solutions have ups and downs. To me, what you are doing is more advanced, time consuming yet far far more rewarding. Keep us posted, I for one am VERY interested to hear more


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## cloud jaguar

Wow, that is an awesome setup. I too may reconsider my original plan of using an Exo Terra terrarium as a setup for Ghosts or other mantids.

I am wondering how you keep that hydrated and about the fan you mention - what types of optional stuff did you purchase and attach inside of there???

Thanks!


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## bassist

I'm interested in doing this some day also lol reading up on some orchid plants that can survive in those kind of conditions list that I have found that can survive 80+ temperature and high humidity are these:

Pleurothallis grobyi

Ludisia discolor

Malaxis species N. G.

Malaxis species Thailand

Masdevallia wendlandiana

Maxillaria uncata

Bulbophyllum alagense both forms

Pleurothallis tribulariodes

Haraella odorata

Vanilla planifolia

Trichoglottis triflora

Cirrhopetalum curtsii

Dendrobium abberans

Nephelaphyllum all species

Masdevallia floribunda

Dendrobium atroviolaceum "pigmy type"

Pleurothallis allanii

From Vivariumforums


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## lectricblueyes

Oh wow, you added more pictures. Dude, THIS should have been in the contest!! You would have won HANDS DOWN!

It's like having the "Discovery Channel: Mantids" turned on ALL the time to catch wild-life in wild environments.


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## wuwu

that is one spoiled mantis! :lol: 

very nice looking enclosure.


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## tonyi

LectricBlueyes said:


> Any way, let me ask my two questions:1. With the front-opening enclosures, do you have problems with escapees?
> 
> 2. Cleaning, is it a major issue cleaning these out?


Thanks for all the positive comments!

1. I don't use the front doors much, especially not when I have flying feeder insects in there. I use an opening at the top instead, check out the pictures to see how it works. It's basically a very simple DIY solution comprised of some insect net and two pieces of plastic poster frame.

2. I don't clean. It's intended to be a self-regulating system. The bacteria, springtails and isopods deal with most types of waste quite quickly. I sometimes clean the doors with a piece of tissue and some distilled water but that's it. One of the sides is covered with black film, the other is usually covered with droplets so I don't clean them.



Arkanis said:


> Wow, that is an awesome setup. I too may reconsider my original plan of using an Exo Terra terrarium as a setup for Ghosts or other mantids.I am wondering how you keep that hydrated and about the fan you mention - what types of optional stuff did you purchase and attach inside of there???
> 
> Thanks!


I have a DIY rain system for that. I built it using a 12V water pump (I think it was intended for sinks on boats), some aquarium hose and Gardena nozzles for use in greenhouses. It also has a modified lid for use with 4 litre containers (sorry, I don't know the proper name for these in English) for distilled water. Finally, I spliced the cables and hooked them up to a suitable AC/DC adapter and added an on/off switch. So now I just have to use the switch mounted alongside the vivarium to make it rain. I usually do that once a day. That's enough to maintain humidity. The fan removes some air a few times a day to keep it fresh.






The hose and nozzles mounted on the cover glass, using suction cups






One of the nozzles. I used a hot nail to make holes in the hose, then just plugged them in.






The hose, pump and modified lid.






With the lid closed.






The switches. One for the lamp, one for the rain system.

This tank has DIY written all over it.... :lol: 



> I'm interested in doing this some day also lol reading up on some orchid plants that can survive in those kind of conditions list that I have found that can survive 80+ temperature and high humidity are these:


I don't know much about orchids myself, but I know that at least Ludisia discolor is popular in this type of vivarium. I have a small Phalaenopsis myself, mounted on a piece of cork. It seems to thrive but doesn't seem to want to give me any flowers.


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## macro junkie

nice enclosure.whats it feeding on in the image above?


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## tonyi

> nice enclosure.whats it feeding on in the image above?


In both pictures, she's feeding on grasshoppers. I caught them in a nature reserve, so they should be free from pesticides. I don't feed her crickets since I can't make sure they're eaten. They could easily hide in my enclosure and then come after her when she's moulting.


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## Rob Byatt

Very interesting post, Tony. I would like to experiment with things like this but there is never enough time nor space. This is the curse of breeding many species :angry: 

The behaviour you have witnessed is what can be expected from an ambush predator. The movement, as you quite rightly suggested, it in relation to prey availabilty. An ambush predator will stay in the same place if there is a steady supply of food to that area; it will move if the supply lessens.


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## tonyi

I just observed another indication of the hunting skills of my orchid mantis. Earlier today, I caught a house fly. I think I may have injured its wings along with one of its legs and stunned it while handling it, because when I put it in the vivarium, it fell onto an orchid leaf and stayed immobile for a good 20 minutes. Then it started to move in small circles, round and round, at a fairly slow pace. My orchid mantis was still sitting in the same spot she's been in for almost 24 hours. A while later, when I was checking, she seemed to be observing the fly from a distance. She kept doing this for a while. Later, the fly had moved out of sight and the mantis had moved too, although only a little bit. I couldn't see the fly but the mantis seemed to be keeping an eye out. I checked again a couple of hours later and this time my mantis had moved to a new spot farther away and was munching on the fly in question. So obviously she noticed the fly, observed it for some time and then moved in to ambush it.


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## lectricblueyes

Rob Byatt said:


> The behaviour you have witnessed is what can be expected from an ambush predator. The movement, as you quite rightly suggested, it in relation to prey availabilty. An ambush predator will stay in the same place if there is a steady supply of food to that area; it will move if the supply lessens.


Agreed. Actually when I read about your praying mantis's hunting behavior it reminded me of an online video game I play. I play an "ambush" type of a sniper and I do EXACTLY what the mantis does. I go to a well hidden area where I blend in, I sit still and don't move... if other players come near this area, I kill them... and if they don't... I move, sit, and wait again. Totally makes sense.

We just don't see this because we don't give them natural environments to do this in.


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## Swipht

How does the mantis deal with the 'rain'? It seems to be a larger species then the ghost mantis I keep in my 12x12x12. My mantis freaks out when I just use a spray bottle threw the top screen. Don't think she would like a full blown rain at all...


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## tonyi

> How does the mantis deal with the 'rain'? It seems to be a larger species then the ghost mantis I keep in my 12x12x12. I have a bonsai in mine, and I plan to add some moss, and some real ivy to it. My mantis freaks out when I just use a spray bottle threw the top screen. Don't think she would like a full blown rain at all...


She usually shudders a bit, then looks angrily at the nozzles. But after that she usually drinks from her raptorial arms. So even if she doesn't like it, she doesn't seem to be too annoyed by it. Then again, the "rain" only lasts for a few seconds each day.


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## hibiscusmile

Just caught this post, awesome enclosure. Isn't it odd, for a couple hours u stayed away and just when u came back , u got to see her eat it!!!


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## tonyi

> Isn't it odd, for a couple hours u stayed away and just when u came back , u got to see her eat it!!!


She's a real entertainer, that's for sure. :lol: I didn't see her eat the flies though. They simply disappeared and she just got fatter. So that's more my deductive skills than an observation talking... :lol:


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## lectricblueyes

Tony, have you given any consideration into moving some Baka or Mbuti into that rain forest enclosure? I think it might help out with a number of things.


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## lectricblueyes

hibiscusmile said:


> Just caught this post, awesome enclosure. Isn't it odd, for a couple hours u stayed away and just when u came back , u got to see her eat it!!!


The mantid was waiting for him, of course. The mantid probably thought she was going to be on "Mantids Gone Wild III". Little exhibitionist


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## hibiscusmile

:blink: Dear God, I missed the show


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## tonyi

> Tony, have you given any consideration into moving some Baka or Mbuti into that rain forest enclosure? I think it might help out with a number of things.


Please, no more mouths to feed! :lol: 

Today marks the end of the first week of my orchid mantis' adventures in the enclosure. I've been quite fascinated by her movement pattern. So far, she seems to be exploring the enclosure in a somewhat systematic manner. Not once has she backtracked more than a few centimeters, instead she's been moving in a new direction all the time. I've only been observing this for seven days so it may be a coincidence but it makes me think of how bees seem to have some sort of systematic navigational aid (since they know which flowers they've visited).







This picture shows her movement pattern (approximated). The numbers represent the days since her introduction. Please excuse the drawing style, it's difficult to convey the three dimensions. She's been moving backward/upward, then along the background, then forward/right along the "log".


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## lectricblueyes

Tony said:


> Please, no more mouths to feed! :lol:


FYI: If you don't know what Baka or Mbuti are... here is a picture:


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## Katnapper

LectricBlueyes said:


> FYI: If you don't know what Baka or Mbuti are... here is a picture:


 :lol: Thank you, Lectric, for the laugh!  That explains the joke for me (as I didn't know, and didn't bother to Google them at the time  ).


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## tonyi

> FYI: If you don't know what Baka or Mbuti are... here is a picture:


I know, that's why I was thinking that the usual catch of assorted grasshoppers and flies wouldn't be enough...

:lol:


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## kamakiri

Tony, the movement diagram is perfect. The vivarium is nice too  Great work!

Please keep us updated...


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## lectricblueyes

Tony said:


> I know, that's why I was thinking that the usual catch of assorted grasshoppers and flies wouldn't be enough... :lol:


lol

Speaking of interesting people from far away places... anyone here ever see the movie "Baraka"? If you're lucky enough to own a blu-ray player, it's one of the best HD movies I've ever seen though I've seen very few  I found a real good deal online for blu-ray player if anyone wants to know. $150 for a Samsung. Got good reviews too and looks sharp as real life with some movies.


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## tonyi

Today I've seen further indications that hunger triggers movement and more active hunting behavior. Over the past few days, the cold has made it hard to find suitable food outdoors and the local pet shops haven't had anything useful either. So I've fed my orchid mantis some small flies and a thin small insect of some sort. There are still fruit flies in the enclosure but she doesn't care for them anymore now that she's developed a taste for bigger prey.

Today the weather has been more favorable so I drove out to a nearby forest and caught seven fat flies. When I poured them into the enclosure, she was relatively thin (as opposed to being fat, not thin in the real sense). She immediately caught a fly since it was walking right in front of her. After finishing that one, she noticed the other flies buzzing around. This sparked more activity then I've seen in the past four days combined. She started to move towards the flies at a relatively quick pace, soon she had a new position high up among the foliage on the back wall. Shortly thereafter, she was munching on her second fly. When I checked in about 30 mins later, she had already caught a third fly. So not only did she move much more actively, she was also very successful, catching three lively flies in less than two hours.

Here's a link to a film clip showing her catch the second fly (the catch comes after 46 seconds):

EDIT: it is also possible that the more active hunting was triggered by a sense of urgency since she's due to molt on tuesday morning (assuming exactly two weeks since last molt).


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## lectricblueyes

Tony said:


> . Here's a link to a film clip showing her catch the second fly (the catch comes after 46 seconds):


Great video! Nice angle and everything!


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## Katnapper

Neat video, Tony.  She has flawless reflexes! I love the way they wiggle with excitement when they see prey nearby too. :lol:


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## hierodula

Katnapper said:


> Neat video, Tony.  She has flawless reflexes! I love the way they wiggle with excitement when they see prey nearby too. :lol:


your sure right. that mantis got skills


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## tonyi

This is the sunday of two surprises. I came home last night, just after 2 a.m., after attending a party at a friend's place. As usual, I checked the vivarium. I was relieved to see that my orchid mantis was finally molting. Then this morning, I was in for a surprise. There was my orchid mantis, but with wings! So, apparently the she is a he, and is now adult.

I guess it's back to segment counting practice... :lol: 

He has hardly moved at all for 10 days and I was expecting a molt this week. It was interesting to see that he molted sitting on a leaf rather than trying to climb to the lid. Check the attached picture to see the old exoskeleton still hanging from the leaf.


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## hierodula

Tony said:


> This is the sunday of two surprises. I came home last night, just after 2 a.m., after attending a party at a friend's place. As usual, I checked the vivarium. I was relieved to see that my orchid mantis was finally molting. Then this morning, I was in for a surprise. There was my orchid mantis, but with wings! So, apparently the she is a he, and is now adult. I guess it's back to segment counting practice... :lol:
> 
> He has hardly moved at all for 10 days and I was expecting a molt this week. It was interesting to see that he molted sitting on a leaf rather than trying to climb to the lid. Check the attached picture to see the old exoskeleton still hanging from the leaf.


well, you need to find a mate for him now


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## tonyi

The second and half of the third week of movement tracking has been rather uneventful, most likely due to the molt that took place on Saturday night/Sunday morning. I noticed a sharp decrease in activity shortly after the last movement map was published here. After that, my mantis mostly stayed put, being far less interested in hunting than before. He did, however, go on one brief hunting session after I introduced two rather large flies. Both were caught in about half an hour, after that I observed very little movement.

During the molt process, the mantis moved from the site of the old exoskeleton, approx. 20-30 cm to a leaf to inflate his wings. He stayed there for the following 24 hours and has only moved a small distance since then. He has, however, started to be more interested in his surroundings again. I introduced several flying insects, which he is now observing.

The movement map covers the 1½ week following the last one (i.e. 10 days, Friday to Monday).






EDIT; the movements of the previous week are left but in grey, for quick comparison.


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## Katnapper

The movement map is interesting, Tony.


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## The_Asa

Very nice cage! Spoiled orchid =P


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## tonyi

I now have more evidence that the orchid mantis is capable of adapting its hunting behavior to its prey and that it actively seeks out suitable ambush sites. For several weeks, my orchid mantis was fed flying insects. For some reason, these flying insects tend to follow a rather predictable pattern in my enclosure; they buzz about the top section and often come to rest on the vegetation along the back wall. When my mantis had become adult and started eating again after many days of fasting, I introduced flightless house flies, from a culture I bought. The mantis noticed the flies and then proceeded to test different ambush sites. I recognized one site it had used previously with some success against flying prey. Not much was caught there and soon the mantis started to climb the glass walls, after watching the flies do this. In all the previous weeks, the mantis has only spent brief periods on the glass walls, getting from one point to another. Now he started to lurk there. After trying one spot, he moved on to sit on a small ledge made up of my thermometer, which is attached to the glass door. Soon thereafter, I noticed the remains of a fly underneath his mandibles. So apparently he identified a spot that the house flies seem to like and took up position there.

As I've seen before, he will stay for a day or two in a site where he's found prey. If more prey arrive, he will stay there. If not, he will look for movement and proceed to new spots.

I can see no other explanation than this for the movement patterns I've observed. He can move up to 40-50 cm in a day while searching for a site, then sit almost perfectly still for two days straight, followed by new excursions.


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## Katnapper

Tony said:


> I now have more evidence that the orchid mantis is capable of adapting its hunting behavior to its prey and that it actively seeks out suitable ambush sites. For several weeks, my orchid mantis was fed flying insects. For some reason, these flying insects tend to follow a rather predictable pattern in my enclosure; they buzz about the top section and often come to rest on the vegetation along the back wall. When my mantis had become adult and started eating again after many days of fasting, I introduced flightless house flies, from a culture I bought. The mantis noticed the flies and then proceeded to test different ambush sites. I recognized one site it had used previously with some success against flying prey. Not much was caught there and soon the mantis started to climb the glass walls, after watching the flies do this. In all the previous weeks, the mantis has only spent brief periods on the glass walls, getting from one point to another. Now he started to lurk there. After trying one spot, he moved on to sit on a small ledge made up of my thermometer, which is attached to the glass door. Soon thereafter, I noticed the remains of a fly underneath his mandibles. So apparently he identified a spot that the house flies seem to like and took up position there.As I've seen before, he will stay for a day or two in a site where he's found prey. If more prey arrive, he will stay there. If not, he will look for movement and proceed to new spots.
> 
> I can see no other explanation than this for the movement patterns I've observed. He can move up to 40-50 cm in a day while searching for a site, then sit almost perfectly still for two days straight, followed by new excursions.


Interesting observations, Tony.  Where did you get a culture of flightless house flies? I've never seen or heard of any of these for sale... so very curious!


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## tonyi

> Interesting observations, Tony. Where did you get a culture of flightless house flies? I've never seen or heard of any of these for sale... so very curious!


They're available on mail order here in Sweden. They cost about as much as a starter culture of fruit flies. Quite practical. They tend to mutate in a much less predictable manner than fruit flies though. Quite a few of them can fly almost as good as a normal fly and probably around 50% can "glide" 5-10 inches or so. Which is quite annoying when they jump from your hand. But they're great mantis food.


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## wuwu

i hope they're available in the US soon! and flightless blue bottles too. that would be awesome.


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## Katnapper

wuwu said:


> i hope they're available in the US soon! and flightless blue bottles too. that would be awesome.


Me toooooo!!


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## PhilinYuma

Katnapper said:


> Me toooooo!!


Yay! I know how to make flightless bluebottles (without tearing their wings off) already! I fed some to the ghosts this morning! They can run pretty fast, though!


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## Katnapper

PhilinYuma said:


> Yay! I know how to make flightless bluebottles (without tearing their wings off) already! I fed some to the ghosts this morning! They can run pretty fast, though!


OK... how?


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## tonyi

> OK... how? smile.gif


1. Find wild flying specimen, 2. Start cultures from these, 3. Select flies to promote genes you like, 4. repeat step 2.


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## PhilinYuma

Katnapper said:


> OK... how?


I fill a 3oz (I think) delicup nearly full of moist sphagnum moss or whatever, so that it nearly comes up to the top of the pot and sprinke bluebottle pupae on top of that and put the lid on. The flies eclose fine, but they are unable to "pump up" their wings, so I never have blue bottles buzzing around the house.


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## Katnapper

Sorry, Tony... but I think Phil's got you beat for simplicity and the time factor (instant flightless flies)!  Hmmm... never would have thought of that. Pretty good thinkin' there, Phil!


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## PhilinYuma

Tony said:


> I now have more evidence that the orchid mantis is capable of adapting its hunting behavior to its prey and that it actively seeks out suitable ambush sites. For several weeks, my orchid mantis was fed flying insects. For some reason, these flying insects tend to follow a rather predictable pattern in my enclosure; they buzz about the top section and often come to rest on the vegetation along the back wall. When my mantis had become adult and started eating again after many days of fasting, I introduced flightless house flies, from a culture I bought. The mantis noticed the flies and then proceeded to test different ambush sites. I recognized one site it had used previously with some success against flying prey. Not much was caught there and soon the mantis started to climb the glass walls, after watching the flies do this. In all the previous weeks, the mantis has only spent brief periods on the glass walls, getting from one point to another. Now he started to lurk there. After trying one spot, he moved on to sit on a small ledge made up of my thermometer, which is attached to the glass door. Soon thereafter, I noticed the remains of a fly underneath his mandibles. So apparently he identified a spot that the house flies seem to like and took up position there.As I've seen before, he will stay for a day or two in a site where he's found prey. If more prey arrive, he will stay there. If not, he will look for movement and proceed to new spots.
> 
> I can see no other explanation than this for the movement patterns I've observed. He can move up to 40-50 cm in a day while searching for a site, then sit almost perfectly still for two days straight, followed by new excursions.


This thread is one of the most fascinating, thoughtful and well observed (I feel as though I am writing a reference  ) that I have seen on this forum and there have been some good ones.

Learning behavior in insects has been studied for well over thirty years, and includes ongoing work on mantids. The leading researcher in the US is, I think, Martha Weiss at Georgetown: [email protected] You might want to Google articles on insect/mantid leaning and seriously consider sending her some of your material. She might give you ideas for future experimental design.

Good luck.


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## PhilinYuma

Tony said:


> I now have more evidence that the orchid mantis is capable of adapting its hunting behavior to its prey and that it actively seeks out suitable ambush sites. For several weeks, my orchid mantis was fed flying insects. For some reason, these flying insects tend to follow a rather predictable pattern in my enclosure; they buzz about the top section and often come to rest on the vegetation along the back wall. When my mantis had become adult and started eating again after many days of fasting, I introduced flightless house flies, from a culture I bought. The mantis noticed the flies and then proceeded to test different ambush sites. I recognized one site it had used previously with some success against flying prey. Not much was caught there and soon the mantis started to climb the glass walls, after watching the flies do this. In all the previous weeks, the mantis has only spent brief periods on the glass walls, getting from one point to another. Now he started to lurk there. After trying one spot, he moved on to sit on a small ledge made up of my thermometer, which is attached to the glass door. Soon thereafter, I noticed the remains of a fly underneath his mandibles. So apparently he identified a spot that the house flies seem to like and took up position there.As I've seen before, he will stay for a day or two in a site where he's found prey. If more prey arrive, he will stay there. If not, he will look for movement and proceed to new spots.
> 
> I can see no other explanation than this for the movement patterns I've observed. He can move up to 40-50 cm in a day while searching for a site, then sit almost perfectly still for two days straight, followed by new excursions.


This thread is one of the most fascinating, thoughtful and well observed (I feel as though I am writing a reference  ) that I have seen on this forum, and there have been some good ones.

Learning behavior in insects has been studied for well over thirty years, and includes ongoing work on mantids. The leading researcher in the US is, I think, Martha Weiss at Georgetown: [email protected] You might want to Google articles on insect/mantid leaning and seriously consider sending her some of your material. She might give you ideas for future experimental design.

Good luck.

Edit: Ha! As a consequence of reading your remarks, I was talking to Mija about insect learning (including one really awful undergrad experiment on manids and warning coloration) and linked her to your thread. She said: "Yes its quite good. Too bad he only has a male." lol! I guess that women are only happy when a male settles down and starts to raise a family!


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## tonyi

> Edit: Ha! As a consequence of reading your remarks, I was talking to Mija about insect learning (including one really awful undergrad experiment on manids and warning coloration) and linked her to your thread. She said: "Yes its quite good. Too bad he only has a male." lol! I guess that women are only happy when a male settles down and starts to raise a family!


:lol

Thanks for spreading the word! I didn't start out with serious expectations, I just wanted to see how a mantid would behave in a larger, more naturalistic environment. Since I'm writing a thesis, I spend most of my time at home so consequently I can observe my mantis during most of the day.

I could easily imagine a far more thorough experimental design but since I have only one viv and my significant other isn't particularly thrilled about having more than that, this will remain a very limited operation.

By the way, I just saw my mantis observe flies moving halfway across the viv. I think that the situational awareness of an orchid mantis is quite a bit more than we usually give them credit for. The systematic behavior of the mantis has continued for the past week. He moved to the back of the viv again to survey a new spot there but only stayed for a day, then moved back to the front glass door to sit on the thermometer/hygrometer again. Fly remains still appear on the thermometer/hygrometer so this spot is apparently well chosen and that explains why he moves back there. It is interesting to see that he moves to the exact (in terms of millimeters now) same spot every morning.

I've also concluded that my mantis has an urge to each night move to a position where he is suspended upside down in reference to the "sun". If light falls in from the side when the enclosure is dark, he will move to sit so that his underside is facing the light. This is probably nothing new, just thought I'd mention it since I see it every night.

EDIT; it could also be of interest to know that my mantis never sits upside down suspended from the ceiling during the day. Every morning he climbs down and every night he climbs back up, but he always moves to a separate spot during the night.


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## mantidian

PhilinYuma said:


> I fill a 3oz (I think) delicup nearly full of moist sphagnum moss or whatever, so that it nearly comes up to the top of the pot and sprinke bluebottle pupae on top of that and put the lid on. The flies eclose fine, but they are unable to "pump up" their wings, so I never have blue bottles buzzing around the house.


how does it work?


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## matt020593

I'm betting you have kept Dart Frogs Tony, amazing enclosure, I might try this one day with a communal species.

Great work.


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## PhilinYuma

mantidian said:


> how does it work?


Well!


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## mantidian

PhilinYuma said:


> Well!


haha I mean how does it make the flies from doing that?


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## tonyi

Today is the first time that I've noticed a very strong indication that my mantis jumped from one spot to another, covering approx. 5-8 inches. I saw him eyeballing a couple of flies lurking on the "log" in the middle of the vivarium. He was sitting in his current usual spot on the door. A while later he had moved and looked as if he was ready to jump across. Nothing happened, so I went about other business. A short while later when I looked in, he was sitting on the log, in the spot he had pointed his body toward before. If he were to walk there, he would have had to walk all along the length of the door and either to the rear right corner or the front left one. In addition, the thermometer/hygrometer he was sitting on was slightly tilted to one side. It's attached fairly loosely with magnets but hasn't moved a millimeter in weeks. Now all of a sudden it has a very noticeable tilt to the right. This is consistent with how it could have been moved by the force of the mantis jumping from it. I curse that I didn't see it. I also noticed that he was licking his raptorial arms and that a fly wing was next to him so I think he caught a fly.

This is in line with my previous observations. The mantis will notice movement of potential prey, observe it for several hours or even a day or two, then swiftly move to a new location close to the observed prey. He's also much more active now, moving around slightly in various places on the log to find the best ambush site.

EDIT; I took a few macro shots of him today (I love my vintage 100 mm Minolta AF macro lens; 1:1 goodness and f/2.8-32), as soon I get the roll developed (yes, I know, I'm old-school, etc.) I can scan them and post here.


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## tonyi

The pics didn't turn out as good as I had hoped but at least here's three. No. 2 might be of some special interest since it shows him observing flies. I know it looks a bit synthetic but that's just the combination of scanning and using film.


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## d17oug18

nice topic man, i want to do the same when i get something that size, its dangerous but i would like to see how a male and female would act around each other throughout there whole lives =) you rock man, keep posting


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## tonyi

A few days ago, I released five small crickets into the enclosure. My orchid mantis had his first ever encounter with one a few seconds after that, I managed to catch the whole thing on film. He seems to be puzzled and a bit scared of the crickets.

Youtube clip available here;


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## Katnapper

Tony said:


> A few days ago, I released five small crickets into the enclosure. My orchid mantis had his first ever encounter with one a few seconds after that, I managed to catch the whole thing on film. He seems to be puzzled and a bit scared of the crickets.Youtube clip available here;


Interesting video clip, Tony... I really enjoyed it!  I think the cricket is a little too big for him to view as a food item. His strike at the cricket is more an attempt to shoo the cricket away from his immediate territory than try to catch it. I absolutely love the part right after the strike... he shakes a little bit (lingering fear).... but when he turns his head and looks at the cricket I have to laugh out loud every time (yes, I replayed it several times as it's so funny to me, hehe!). He gives it this *look *like, "You're still here?!!" :lol:


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## tonyi

> . he shakes a little bit (lingering fear).... but when he turns his head and looks at the cricket I have to laugh out loud every time (yes, I replayed it several times as it's so funny to me, hehe!). He gives it this look like, "You're still here?!!"


Yeah, mantids can be such characters! :lol: 

I think you may be right about the size. I bought five of them and this was one of the largest. The smaller ones may still be viable as food for him. If he won't eat them within a week, I'll remove them. I caught four fat flies for him today in case he won't eat the crix.


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## cloud jaguar

Awesome video Tony! The musical selection was also perfect - it conveys such danger and intrigue! What music was that btw? Keep those videos coming!


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## Katnapper

Haha... I had to go watch it again... :lol:


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## tonyi

Arkanis said:


> Awesome video Tony! The musical selection was also perfect - it conveys such danger and intrigue! What music was that btw? Keep those videos coming!


It's a track from the Playstation 2 video game "Metal Gear Solid 3". Thanks for appreciating it! I wanted to spice things up a bit and thought it would be amusing to add music from a video game that takes place in a jungle.


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## Jwonni

Tony said:


> They're available on mail order here in Sweden. They cost about as much as a starter culture of fruit flies. Quite practical. They tend to mutate in a much less predictable manner than fruit flies though. Quite a few of them can fly almost as good as a normal fly and probably around 50% can "glide" 5-10 inches or so. Which is quite annoying when they jump from your hand. But they're great mantis food.


They sound like curly wing flies we get them here but they are not easy to find tend to be out of stock a lot but they are great


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## MingMing

Are those real plants??? I wanna build one!!!


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## tonyi

ming ming said:


> Are those real plants??? I wanna build one!!!


Yes, every plant is real. If you want to build one, you can check out a thread about how I built mine here; http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-f...24-got-log.html. Please note that I originally had a water feature in it, which I have since removed.


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## MingMing

Tony said:


> Yes, every plant is real. If you want to build one, you can check out a thread about how I built mine here; http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-f...24-got-log.html. Please note that I originally had a water feature in it, which I have since removed.


ok im registering now lol  Thanks so much!!! I had a feeling they were living plants because of the piece of wood you have there the one crossing from the from left part to the left right side.., ove it there is a plant that is VERY comon over here and we actually took some of the piece of jungle my dad has to put them in the garden  

The water idea isnt bad, although it might not work because of the crickets?

ok ill b back in a few hours i need t get some micro crickets from a guy that sells tarantulas in cancun...an hour away from here. Thanks!


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## Morpheus uk

Tony said:


> It's a track from the Playstation 2 video game "Metal Gear Solid 3". Thanks for appreciating it! I wanted to spice things up a bit and thought it would be amusing to add music from a video game that takes place in a jungle.


Great game  

Seeing your vid made me want to do one in the same way although the computer usually goes wrong whenever video is involved &lt;_&lt; 

BTW fantastic enclosure!

Natural looking set ups are always the best i say


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## tonyi

ming ming said:


> ok im registering now lol  Thanks so much!!! I had a feeling they were living plants because of the piece of wood you have there the one crossing from the from left part to the left right side.., ove it there is a plant that is VERY comon over here and we actually took some of the piece of jungle my dad has to put them in the garden  The water idea isnt bad, although it might not work because of the crickets?


Sorry, I didn't think that registration was required to see that post. I should copy the content to some more accessible place but I haven't gotten around to that yet. I removed the water feature before I bought my orchid mantis, primarily because I was concerned that the mantis might fall into it and drown. As for the crickets, I don't know but I have observed that my woodlice (the trusty and mostly invisible caretakers of my vivarium) tended to drown there.



Morpheus uk said:


> Great game  Seeing your vid made me want to do one in the same way although the computer usually goes wrong whenever video is involved &lt;_&lt;
> 
> BTW fantastic enclosure!
> 
> Natural looking set ups are always the best i say


Thanks, it's delightful to hear such kind words!


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## MingMing

Oh its ok  They have AWESOME ideas for vivariums in that forum  Im not sure what im going to do about the water yet... I was thinking about adding a really thin "river" and just purify the water with one of those purifiers for turtles lol and ad the same time use that same water fr the fake rain... As soon as I start builging up the lil empire Im going to start posting pictures on what how and how much time and money is requiering everything in the process... Although, I might be using fake plants instead of natural ones... I can barely keep a cactus alive for 3 days.

God.. I hope everything comes out great... this is gonna be my next investment  a 1 m long x 40-50 cm deep x 60 cm tall vivarium for my lineolas... Thanks so much for the tips and well for the obvious main idea!!!


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## PhilinYuma

ming ming said:


> Oh its ok  They have AWESOME ideas for vivariums in that forum  Im not sure what im going to do about the water yet... I was thinking in adding a really thin "river" and just purify the water with one of those purifiers for turtles lol and ad the same time use that same water fr the fake rain... As soon as I start builging up the lil empire Im going to start posting pictures on what how and how much time and money is requiering everything in the process... Although, I might be using fake plants instead of natural ones... I can barely keep a cactus alive for 3 days.God.. I hope everything comes out great... this is gonna be my next invesment  a 1 m long x 40-50 cm deep x 60 cm tall vivarium for my lineolas... Thanks so much for the tips and well for the obvious main idea!!!


Oh, Ming Ming! You court disaster like a toreador courts a bull! Unless you made a typo, the larger version of your tank would have a volume of 3,000 liters (792gals) and the smaller 2,400L (634 gals. To get a better picture in your mind how large that is, imagine a layer of 10gal (~38L) tanks ten tanks long by ten wide. Now build five more layers on top of that, and it would still be smaller than your smaller enclosure! The crics would have to take a shuttle just to get to the mantids!!  

I've forgotten how many nymphs you have (80?), but that's how many life preservers (cinturon salvavidas) you would have to make for the babies for when they fell into your "really thin river;" that's why Tony got rid of his when he put in his mantis.

Still, like the matador, you usually seem to emerge triumphant from your "danza general con la muerte," and we're rooting for ya!


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## MingMing

PhilinYuma said:


> Oh, Ming Ming! You court disaster like a toreador courts a bull! Unless you made a typo, the larger version of your tank would have a volume of 3,000 liters (792gals) and the smaller 2,400L (634 gals. To get a better picture in your mind how large that is, imagine a layer of 10gal (~38L) tanks ten tanks long by ten wide. Now build five more layers on top of that, and it would still be smaller than your smaller enclosure! The crics would have to take a shuttle just to get to the mantids!!  I've forgotten how many nymphs you have (80?), but that's how many life preservers (cinturon salvavidas) you would have to make for the babies for when they fell into your "really thin river;" that's why Tony got rid of his when he put in his mantis.
> 
> Still, like the matador, you usually seem to emerge triumphant from your "danza general con la muerte," and we're rooting for ya!


WHATTT?!?!?!? Why would it have to be so big??? I mean Yeah im aware I have 80 lineolas but still Im not sure how many I would have by the time Im done building the tank  I was thinkgin about building the tank and getting everything ready so I could sex them up after that... divide them by sex and specie... and well just giving away the ones I cant have in the tank...

About the lil fiver mmm its just going to be more like a hole with water lol maybe half cm deep, that would depend on the lenght of the legs of the mantis  

Its gonna take a while though, I need to prepeare everything like its my wedding (even though i would NEVER prepare my wedding, I would pay someone else with experience to do it lol)

So far I only got some prices:

Tank- 90 usd homemade by a guy my dad knows

Special light bulb - 50 usd from any aquarium

Special lamp - 40 usd from any aquarium

The thing that makes mist  30 usd from the tarantula breeder

The thing that purifies the water and is used for turtles and is also gonna work as the rain  - 30 usd from the tarantula breeder

The clock that turns the mist and the rain on and off every 10 mins for 30 seconds - 15 usd in radioshack or steren

And I still gotta find ALOT of prices... I need to check how much is gonna be for the good quality plastic flowers, the rocks o the lower bart, I need to check how im going to decorate it... design the landscape, everything.... sounds fun though... and well I got nothing else to do, so why not


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## PhilinYuma

ming ming said:


> WHATTT?!?!?!? Why would it have to be so big??? I mean Yeah im aware I have 80 lineolas but still Im not sure how many I would have by the time Im done building the tank  I was thinkgin about building the tank and getting everything ready so I could sex them up after that... divide them by sex and specie... and well just giving away the ones I cant have in the tank...About the lil fiver mmm its just going to be more like a hole with water lol maybe half cm deep, that would depend on the lenght of the legs of the mantis
> 
> Its gonna take a while though, I need to prepeare everything like its my wedding (even though i would NEVER prepare my wedding, I would pay someone else with experience to do it lol)
> 
> And I still gotta find ALOT of prices... I need to check how much is gonna be for the good quality plastic flowers, the rocks o the lower bart, I need to check how im going to decorate it... design the landscape, everything.... sounds fun though... and well I got nothing else to do, so why not


HAHA! I didn't decide the size of the tank you did: "a 1 m long x 40-50 cm deep x 60 cm tall vivarium for my lineolas." But it does sound like a ot of fun. When it comes to weddings, I found that after the first couple, it got easier.


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## MingMing

PhilinYuma said:


> HAHA! I didn't decide the size of the tank you did: "a 1 m long x 40-50 cm deep x 60 cm tall vivarium for my lineolas." But it does sound like a ot of fun. When it comes to weddings, I found that after the first couple, it got easier.


lol, yeah but that was going to be the total size of it, like... for all the mantis lol divided by 2, one side for the males and the other for the females..

haha well Im not planning on organizing or fixing everything for my first 5 weddings so...


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## tonyi

PhilinYuma said:


> Oh, Ming Ming! You court disaster like a toreador courts a bull! Unless you made a typo, the larger version of your tank would have a volume of 3,000 liters (792gals) and the smaller 2,400L (634 gals. To get a better picture in your mind how large that is, imagine a layer of 10gal (~38L) tanks ten tanks long by ten wide. Now build five more layers on top of that, and it would still be smaller than your smaller enclosure! The crics would have to take a shuttle just to get to the mantids!!





PhilinYuma said:


> HAHA! I didn't decide the size of the tank you did: "a 1 m long x 40-50 cm deep x 60 cm tall vivarium for my lineolas." But it does sound like a ot of fun. When it comes to weddings, I found that after the first couple, it got easier.





ming ming said:


> lol, yeah but that was going to be the total size of it, like... for all the mantis lol divided by 2, one side for the males and the other for the females.. haha well Im not planning on organizing or fixing everything for my first 5 weddings so...


Hold on, fellas!! I don't know how you've been calculating but as far as I know, a 100x40x60 cm tank would contain 240 liters and a 100x50x60 cm tank would contain 450 liters. So while it's big, it's not 2400 liters, which is enormous.



> The clock that turns the mist and the rain on and off every 10 mins for 30 seconds - 15 usd in radioshack or steren


I'd say that 30 seconds of rain is more than enough for a whole day. I usually run my rain system for 5-7 seconds per day and that's enough for my plants. You don't want to oversaturate the vivarium and turn it into a swamp. Also, you must take ventilation into consideration. I recommend having glass covering about 3/4 of the top area and then some kind of net covering the rest. The ventilation slit should in my experience be along the front glass if you want to have a clear view of the vivarium as much as possible. Also consider digging up a small computer fan somewhere, it makes for a great ventilation device. I took a small old CPU fan I had lying around, spliced the cables, hooked it up to an AC/DC adapter and set it to run at 4.5V. It works perfectly, I run it for about 15 minutes, four times a day.

EDIT;

I think it might be appropriate to move this discussion to a separate thread since it will likely go on for some time to come.


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## PhilinYuma

Hold on, fellas!! I don't know how you've been calculating but as far as I know, a 100x40x60 cm tank would contain 240 liters and a 100x50x60 cm tank would contain 450 liters. So while it's big, it's not 2400 liters, which is enormous.

You're quite right, of course, Tony. Orin is always supposed to check my math, but I guess that this time, he was too busy. Good news for Ming Ming!

The advice about marriage ceremonies getting easier with practice, is quite true though.


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## MingMing

done,... new post, posted


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## tonyi

In case anyone's curious, my male orchid mantis is still going strong in his jungle. He's about six months old now. A few days ago I bought two new orchids (a Dendrobium spp. and a Vanilla planifolia), it didn't take long for him to check them out;


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## mythal

That's the way to grow your mantids! So nice to see an orchid mantis with real live orchids.


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## broderickgil

What are all the plants you have in there, and how do you plat them in there?


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## tonyi

Currently I have two species of Fittonia, two different species of Peperomia, Mimosa ludica, Aeschynanthus sp., Ficus pumila, an unidentified fern, a Dendrobium sp. orchid, Vanilla planifolia and a red vine-like plant whose name I forgot. Planting is easy, for terrestrial species I just remove all potting soil from the store and rinse the roots thoroughly, then simply put them in the substrate. For epiphytic species (i.e. plants that do not grow in soil) I usually mount them to the background, log or pieces of cork.


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## tonyi

A few days ago, I bought a cheap ultrasonic humidifier (for normal indoor use), modified it a bit (plugged the outlet, drilled a hole, attached a hose, built a suitable nozzle). It works like a charm so far, it's a great way of adding humidity to the living moss I have. But it's also a nice aesthetical addition. I'm planning on running it for 30-50 minutes per day.

When it's running, the vivarium looks like this;






EDIT; note the orchid mantis in the lower left corner. He doesn't spend much time down there but these past few days he's been watching the woodlice there and caught two adult wax moths.


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## tonyi

This story came to end yesterday, when the orchid mantis in question died. His metabolic rate must have been rather high since he spent his whole life in relatively even high temperatures (28-30 deg. C, cooler during the nights), so I'm glad he lived this long. I don't think I'll be getting a new mantid any time soon, as silly as it may sound I prefer to remember the one I had rather than seek to replace him with a new one, as if nothing had happened.


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## cloud jaguar

You should write a little book on setting up and keeping a terrarium like that for mantids - i would sure buy it!


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## Katnapper

Tony said:


> This story came to end yesterday, when the orchid mantis in question died. His metabolic rate must have been rather high since he spent his whole life in relatively even high temperatures (28-30 deg. C, cooler during the nights), so I'm glad he lived this long. I don't think I'll be getting a new mantid any time soon, as silly as it may sound I prefer to remember the one I had rather than seek to replace him with a new one, as if nothing had happened.


Sorry to hear, Tony.


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## [email protected]

[SIZE=14pt]Sorry Tony, but he had a good life with in his little world.[/SIZE]


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## sbugir

Sorry to hear, nonetheless that vivarium is very impressive


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## hierodula

thats so sad.  at least he lived a good long life


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