# check out these beauties...



## Ian




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## Samzo

Yeah.. 15cm long as well... thats like 6 inches :shock: Man i want 1..or 2... ah heck 100's ;D


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## Jackson

i thought that was a stick with loads of mantids hanging off it :shock:


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## Rick

Wheres the pic?


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## Samzo

why has his post been turned into 3 dots?


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## Jwonni

what are they?


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## Samzo

they are back


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## Johnald Chaffinch

what is it? how come i've never seen one ever before? it's beautiful! those leafy projections are brilliant


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## Rick

I want some of those!


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## Johnald Chaffinch

it doesnt look like it'd be able to catch anything. those leafy bits are awesome :shock:


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## Rib

please tell me your breeding them


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## Samzo

Ian and I are in the middle of trying to get some... and yes we will be breeding 8)


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## Joe

what are these mantids called? they are awesome.. well aside from the moss mantis lol

Joe


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## Johnald Chaffinch

no wonder nobody's got any, they couldnt find them, their disguise is immense!


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## Andrew

I saw those pics a while ago. Its a paratoxodera...the new "idolomantis", lol

Thanks,

Andrew


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## Johnald Chaffinch

http://phasmid.com/index.php?module=xd_gal...43&amp;ceid=227


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## FieroRumor

I SO want one!  

There was a pic of an orange one in another thread, but these look soooooo cool!  

It must be SOMETHING to watch them molt!

I wonder what they look like when they are babies...?


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## Lan

:shock: those are sooo COOL! damn, must be a lot of work for them to molt! :lol:


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## Rib

Is there a queue in the line for buying?  Those mantids look beautiful


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## Chris Dickie

cool mimicry, not a mantid I would REALLY want to keep but perhaps I need to see more pictures first

has anybody got them in culure or are you trying to find an exporter?

Where are they from?


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## yen_saw

This species of mantis can be found in South East Asia. Very rare mantis and close to extinction perhaps due to deforestation. A friend in Malaysia had a few pics of them in the following link. This wild species get nervious and panic easily and don't do well in captivity. Unless you are lucky enough to get an ooth and breed them from hatchling in a decent cage and setup. They belong to para-toxodera or toxodera spec.

http://www.angelfire.com/yt/kpyehi2/index15.html


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## PseudoDave

I think i may have finally found a mantis im not particularly keen on the look of... Looks like it's been stamped on several times, or sat on with force by someone with a heavy rear...


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## Jwonni

HEY I DID NOT SIT ON ANY MANTIS


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## Christian

Hi.

The pics show a _Toxodera_ species, probably from the _denticulata_/_monstrosa_-complex. _Paratoxodera_ looks somewhat different (pronotum straight, with lobes on it). Noone has bred them yet, most people do not even manage to keep them alive for a longer period.

The threat by deforestation does not apply to this taxon alone, but to all rainforest taxa in SE Asia. It would be desireable that people keep this in mind and do not think of it just when such a species is involved.

If someone really manages to get some alive please bear in mind that this is no beginner species. I do not think most people here may be succesful in breeding it. Sorry, guys! :?

However, my experience tells me that people would nonetheless try it for themselves rather than giving it away to a more experienced breeder, even if this leads to the death of the specimens. Would you give it away? You see! :!:

Regards,

Christian


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## Johnald Chaffinch

beginners probably wont be able to get hold of them. i reckon breeders that use a place like this regularly are more likely to succeed than a lone breeder that all he has to go by is his own experience. if something like this seems to die in captivity no matter what, than i reckon it will most probably be because of one factor, just looking at it you can see that moulting will be a big deal for it, that or diet, humidity or temperature would most probably be the cause


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## PseudoDave

I think there are more examples of 'expertise' amongst our forum-goers, particularly among the young adults than Christian gives credit for :wink:

I know you wouldnt have meant that as an insult, but absolutely every species of mantis was kept for a 'first time' by someone during their , again, 'first time'. In other words, the 'noobs can often out-do the olds'. I know its a poor example (possibly), but I was told countless times 9 years ago that Hymenopus coronatus was extremely difficult to keep and/or breed. I can happily say that I found it far easier in all aspects than many other species that are more 'common' and that are bred widely by people who have had failed attempts with Hymenopus.

Why? Luck of the draw, without more people getting the particular species and giving it a shot, you'll never know how to do it.

The experts always seem to go to TOO MUCH effort and end up killing them anyway, there is some health in neglect. The point of my rant? Well, I dont often have a point, lol, but this time it's just to say it may not be a beginners best 'first mantis', but the knowledge of some of the users here is certainly plenty enough to raise a mantis regardless of species. If you dont try, you dont know  If these animals are in such danger from our activities already, then it is down to everyday enthusiasts to ensure that they don't leave us for good.

Think i'm done now  I still think it's ugly though...In a wonderful, animal kind of way :wink: )


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## Johnald Chaffinch

> If these animals are in such danger from our activities already, then it is down to everyday enthusiasts to ensure that they don't leave us for good.


well said.


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## Ian

lol, agreed on the hymenopus. I find them a doddle compared to raising nymphs of the american sub species of tenodera (seriosuly).

I have heard many people say that partoxodera and toxodera species are hard to keep, but the fact is that people ARE keeping them.

The guy I emailed said he has them at the moment (and he is afraid of spams apparently :? your guess is as good as mine.) He also has some photos of a metalicidae species, I have not quite got down to weather he is keeping them or not, but I am sure I will. (thanks to babelfish.)

If people are keeping them with success, then I am sure it does not take a hobbyist with years of experience who has never kept them, to hold possesion of some, and keep them alive.

I for one, and not at all saying I could keep them alive, would love to give them a go  

Cheers,

Ian


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## jandl2204

I had a private breeder who was willing to part with 2 female and a male of this sp back in september. I had another offer a sp similar to those in the pics to however they now appear to be very hesitant to give them up.

heck to be fair i am not keen, however if anyone does get them please do think of breeding them to keep up their numbers rather than the breeding them for a profit :idea: .

Regards Lee


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## Ian

that would be nice...but for some reason, maybe as christian suggested, the thought of keeping them is to hard, I cannot see this specie increasing in popularity, in captivity.

However, I think maybe if groups of people on the forum, were to get together and search for species that are dying out in captivity, and helped raise the numbers, that would be great.

With the amount of knowledge and contacts thrown in together from all the users of the forum, I am sure it would work wonders.

Cheers,

Ian


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## jandl2204

it would be a pritty good idea to start some sort of collective conservation, of particular species. However i would think that such program may be difficult  .

BUT i am more than willing to take part. The guys i mentioned in the last post are still not willing to part with their mantids. :?

But let me know if yuo are interested in consorvation of sorts.

Lee


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## Ian

well, of course, I am. But, the main thing is, it needs to take dedicated people! of which you are one of them  

Cheers,

Iamn


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## jandl2204

what do you mean boy?

na jk. i prefer to culture on my own, however i do buy rom private breeders on occasion as toget a broad range of genetics in this instance it my be best to stick with the breeders i know as they already have contacts.

well we can only see. :roll:

Lee


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## Mantis Keeper

If we are going to do conservation stuff and bring up the numbers of certain species we need to find breeders that live in the same area as some of these mantids. That way, if we are succesful, we can get some rereleased easily so as our breeding program can actually have an effect on the native population. I'm all for this idea though and would be glad to help.


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## jandl2204

Very true, however my only real concern at the moment is how to get holdof some healthy adults/nymphs/ooths etc accordint to those i have spoken to they are very difficult to send via post, they seem to travel poorly. Releasing them would be am aspect which should be considered carefully but we can only wait and see how this pans out.

Lee


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## Chris Dickie

> Very true, however my only real concern at the moment is how to get holdof some healthy adults/nymphs/ooths etc accordint to those i have spoken to they are very difficult to send via post, they seem to travel poorly. Releasing them would be am aspect which should be considered carefully but we can only wait and see how this pans out.Lee


This could be interesting but I'm not sure how easily they will adapt to being reintroduced, perhaps not too badly as mantids are not in a "higher taxa" eg mammals birds etc and also don't learn anything from parents eg feeding and other behaviour


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## Samzo

> Very true, however my only real concern at the moment is how to get holdof some healthy adults/nymphs/ooths etc accordint to those i have spoken to they are very difficult to send via post, they seem to travel poorly. Releasing them would be am aspect which should be considered carefully but we can only wait and see how this pans out.Lee
> 
> 
> 
> This could be interesting but I'm not sure how easily they will adapt to being reintroduced, perhaps not too badly as mantids are not in a "higher taxa" eg mammals birds etc and also don't learn anything from parents eg feeding and other behaviour
Click to expand...

You would introduce nymphs not adults. The main reason why a species doesn't do well in captivity is because of the conditions.. if someone managed to get the ideal rain forst condion (or where it lives) then it would be successful. If people don't try then no one will know, will be a shame if this species does get extinct.


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## ibanez_freak

You say that they hve trouble living there due to forestation. I think it would be cool to have these quite rare in captivity if kept by having the breeder maybe keep one ootheca to breed on and then give the rest to a trustworthy person where ever they're from the leave the rest of the ootheca in thewild so they can be less rare. There fore they wouldn't be so rare after years of doing this in captivity maybe and can be sold as much as say, gongylus or phylocrania paradoxa etc in time.

Cheers, Cameron.


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## Mantis Keeper

Well, I'm not sure how to do this but I think we should work this out. I do think we need to do this. These are very beautiful mantids and yes, it would be a real shame for them to go extinct. Now I'm not volunteering for the first round of raising these, I am still relatively a beginer. I am working on my materials and cages. Right now I don't have very good temp control but soon I plan on getting that too. I like the idea of helping out with uncommon species, even if not this one as to the difficult conditions to simulate with what I have.


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## Christian

Hi.

There seems that you guys think these species are about to get extinct. This is not the case yet. But they are vulnerable to deforestation, as many other plants and animals. Breeding it in captivity for conservation purposes would require 1. a sponsoring and coordination by a Zoo or something similar, 2. knowledge about the requirements for breeding it successfully *over generations*, 3. a suitable habitat for release. Now: if the habitat would get lost, so they become endangered, then where to release them? Secondly, forest species are difficult to breed over generations without "new blood". Which strictly primary or secondary forest species has been bred up to date for generations without new specimens? Why do some species dissapear after a while? Because no new specimens are available and the actual stock is not well sustained. _Hymenopus_? Not as hard as always said. But new wild caught specimens are available regularly. _Deroplatys_? Easy, nonetheless fresh blood is needed from time to time. Now try to remember which forst species has been bred for generations without new genetic input. Human-adapted species like _Hierodula membranacea_ not included (they may live in suburbs, too). All frequent species are savanna or dry woodland species, or species of forest edges.

I did not intend to imply that only "experienced" breeders will be successful. I said that most people will be not, regardless of what they may consider themselves. Some will be lucky though. All this in the case the specimens are here. I do not see that this is about to happen. You're not the first to hope you may import the "one fertilized female". I heard this story more than often. And, by the way, one female is not the right way, because forest species often avoid pairing with brothers/sisters. But, how to get more than one? You see, I do not want to discourage anybody, but just to point out some often neglected aspects.

By the way, who has bred _Idolomantis_ yet? I mean raising larvae, pairing, ooth laying and having *these* ooths hatched? I did, and some others have, too. It should be no more than 5 people.

Importing tons of ooths and letting the larvae hatch is easy. Ever wondered if *this* species is threatened by these activities? I am curious to see what are the remains of these imports after, say, 2 years. Some guys here seem to feed crickets to them. Considering this, I do not really think it will be a lot...

Regards,

Christian


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## ellroy

I completely agree with the sentiments of this thread and it would be a real shame if this species became extinct. However, I'm worried that collecting for the pet trade could have as much of a detrimental effect as deforestation. We don't know the exact size of the wild population and getting a few contacts to collect a few adults or ooths could wipe out a population in one season. Realistically you would need more than one bloodline to have a genetically viable population and at the moment we don't know if the wild population can afford to lose adults or ooths.

Conservation of a species relies on a detailed understanding of the animals life cycle, environmental requirements and behaviour and as far as I can see no one knows that much about these species. What if, in the wild they have a really high mortality rate where you only get 1 or 2 nymphs surviving to adulthood? What if the entire population only produces a handful of ooths in a season? One ooth could represent a huge portion of the adult population.

There could also be serious implications to re-releasing them back into the wild population. What happens if we send them back with some kind of disease or parasite which wipes out the native population? A lot of us have lost captive mantids to unknown causes such as the brown vomit syndrome which we have very little knowledge of, we could unwittiingly spread this to a wild population which has no defence.

I know that hobbyists and captive breeders have made some excellent contributions to the conservation and knowledge of many species of reptiles and amphibians but I feel this is gained from long term experience of a species and involves a great deal of trial and error, a luxury we may not have with this species.

I would love to be involved in trying this species as much as the next man, I just feel we need to wait til we have a better overview of the whole picture before we try our luck......who knows, maybe they aren't as rare as we thought but until we know for sure I reckon they are best left where they are.

I certainly mean no disrepect to anyone elses opinion I just thought that it was worth looking at the wider implications of attempting something like this as a hobby,

cheers

Alan

**Oops....I seem to have posted this just after Christians post, (I didn't see it til after my post went up) I apologise if it repeats stuff and stand corrected on the wild status of the species concerned. Thanks


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## Johnald Chaffinch

because there's less of a species than others doesnt have to mean it's anywhere near being annihilated, there might be millions of these things. i have no doubt that in time this species will be bred all over the place just like the others ( especially because it looks cool )  .

(oh and just a note, there's been quite a few species of animal that have been brought back from the edge of extinction with just two remaining members of that species, golden lion tamarin comes to mind  )


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## ellroy

Hi Johnald,

It would be great if they are not as threatened as I fear and they become readily available. Unfortunately I have seen reports that they are extremely rare in the wild.  

I also acknowledge that there are a number of species which have been bought back from the brink but this has been done mainly in zoo's with a great deal of experience with the species, not by plucking the last 2 out of the wild and using trial and error.

I hope that captive efforts will save these species (Toxodera, Paratoxodera and other rare mantids) I just think that conservation has to be based on knowledge rather than luck.

You are right though.....they are very cool looking mantids 8)

cheers

Alan


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## jandl2204

I am sure those who have recently posted on this topic will understand that by no means were we talking of doing this off hand, buy just grabbing a few and hoping for the best.

It is obvious that careful consideration must be taken when considering environment, collection, genetic variation, and reintroduction. Take this into account before assuming.

The mantids may not be near dieing out however, sitting back watching it take place would be far worse than starting conservation now.

Zoo's etc do play key roles in conservation, but think of the conservational ability of those on this forum. 5 zoo's say compared to the efforts of 50 separate mantis enthusiasts.

There are some real benefits on such a collective project. Finding a site for reintroduction may be difficult but we can research this.

I imagine that deforestation is taking place as this is one of the countries cash crop’s. Shame.

Regards Lee


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## ellroy

Hi Lee,

Don't get me wrong, I fully respect the abilities of many of the forum users. I am the proud owner of a small group of Idolomantis thanks to the skills of hobbyists even though they were considered too challenging to keep for many years.

I agree that sitting back and watching Toxodera/Paratoxodera die out would be awful and I am all for a well planned captive breeding project but there is a big difference between hobbyists and zoo keepers. Zoo's work with their captives on a full time basis, not just when they get in from work or school and they have a lot more resources to invest.

I apologise if you feel I have made assumptions about your intentions, I did assume that people would just try and get a collector or supplier to send some over. If you planning to carry out a long term study in South East asia then I sincerely apologise for jumping the gun.

cheers

Alan


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## PseudoDave

Christian, allow me to give my congrats for being 'one of no more than 5' to breed idolo's, however, the reason for this is due to their availability to only people with 'the best contacts', im sorry but it's the only real reason for it. Most people here are seeing Idolomantis for the first time ever, of course they wouldn't have bred them yet, that's just stating the obvious. Perhaps if people weren't so 'selfish' with contact details of breeders/suppliers (come on, we all do it) then there would be more of these particular species in the hobby and thus more chance for breeders who do know their stuff, to do their stuff... I dont know why people think they are 'better' than others at all, if you get the setup correct for a species and you know it's needs, you cannot go wrong, but the only way to learn this, would be to keep them in the first place. As for needing 'zoo sponsorship' etc, that's not true in the slightest. There are many projects around the globe where private groups do their bit for conservation, you need permission to release animals in most places, but certainly not a sponsor if you keep your funding etc sensible. Now, for captive breeding, you're correct, you do need fresh blood quite often but this is no different for any other species of animal in any captive breeding situation such as a zoo, so how do they do it? TRADE...


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## Ian

oh dear...looks like I have started a debate  I agree totally, we are selfish with our contacts...and if we were to have them spread around, I am almost certain we would find at least 1 other breeder, keeper, of even collector of this this species.

This species is hard to keep? That is word of mouth..until someone has actually tried with the species, they will not know what they are like to keep. But, by doing this, we could be in danger of taking a perfectly healthy specimen, and letting it die.

Cheers,

Ian


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## Mantis Keeper

Ok, I agree that we shouldn't just take out a bunch of mantids, pass them around, and say good luck. First we need to do research into where they live and such. You said it's a rainforest right? Well, if someone can walk through, pass within twenty feet of something the size of an elephant and never see it, I suppose there could be large numbers of this mantis. It has terrific camaflauge and a relatively small size compared to say.... an elephant. We need to try and get a group to their native environment for two or three years straight to get population counts, dietary information, and prefered environment (ie higher elevation, lower elevation, near streams or lakes...etc). After this it must be determined how threatend this species is, how many adults could be taken without harming the native population, oh, and whether or not they are even in any danger. If it turns out they are in danger and only a few can be taken the people here who can afford to set up the environment most similiar to their own, the food most similiar to their own, and who has the time to care for them. If they can succesfully breed them then we could begin to expand the species to others who wish to help. This way, we can keep stock seperate so after a few more generations(with imports from the wild when possible) we have a genetically diverse population. We could then reintroduce not nymphs or adults, but ooths into the selected location. This will ensure that the nymphs don't have to adjust to new conditions or travel but are born into their home. This is where a zoo or college sponsorship would help. They could supply the money and gear required to go over and do the preliminary research required. Well, what does everyone think of this plan. I think we could do it. I'm sure someone would fund us.


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## Christian

Hi.

I see most people discussing here are not really experienced in conservation issues. Or in determinining what a "hard" species is. There are indeed some, and this is *not *because noone has tried it. I want to leave it at this point now as I see that my arguments were not really appreciated. Maybe I did not manage to explain it adequately.

So, as a last word I want to say that just a more severe application of the remaining conservation laws already existing in tropical countries will lastly save these and all other species mentioned. A captive population does not. Without natural rainforest all these arguments brought so far are useless.

Regards,

Christian


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## Ian

chrisitan, I totally respect your point of view  

All I am saying, is there COULD be possibilities around it, no matter how experienced the person.

Cheers,

Ian


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## PseudoDave

All arguments are appreciated, passing judgement on peoples experience, knowledge and competence when we dont know them generally isn't.


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## Mantis Keeper

So is anyone planning on trying to do something with this species, if not rear at least research them in their natural habitat and try and find some way to do conservation. I plan on trying to do something with this. I have some contacts which may be able to help get some funding for this so that part isn't much of a problem. And Christian, I'm not definately saying we should take them out and try and breed them ourselves, that would just be a bonus to the plan so if you could PM me with all the information you currently have on this species I would be greatful. Anyone who wants to try to work with me and do something please PM with any info or ideas. Thanks all.


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## shakey

Hi all,

rather than take any of these from the wild why not all get together and fund say someone like the wwf or even find out about buying large chunks for land like they do in places like Brazil to try and stop the deforestation happening in the first place this way not just protecting one species but protecting lots of species as the research needed could take years together and chances are if its really endangered as your saying by the time the research has been gathered the species be lost if you protect the forests then you protect the species

Just my thoughts


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## Joe

I'm going to tiawan hopefully this october or this spring so i'll try to see what i can find  . and i'll let you all know what i find too lol

Joe


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## Ian

great joe! Good luck, hopefully you will find some nice species.

Cheers,

ian


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## Samzo

Cool, Taiwan is famous for animal import and exporting. I saw this documentary and this woman had emperor scorpion adults clinging to her shirt lmao and selling on the street! Very weird place. Take some pics aswell Joe!


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## Jesse

Hmmm, interesting thread this has turned into?! I would have to completely agree with Christian. Many mantid taxa such as _Miomantis_, _Hierodula_, and _Sphodromantis_ to name a few, have species that can be inbred for many, many generations without any visible negative effects on the captive population, other taxa this is not the case. Releasing cb mantids back to their natural habitat/area also doesn't make sense, because what threatens certain mantids is habitat loss, so where would you be releasing them? somewhere where a strong population already exists? Bottom line is if we want to save species, we need to save their habitats!


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## ibanez_freak

Ok,

Well, I'm a noob at all thi kinda stuff, but if the area they are living in is being destroyed, instead of trying to save their home, why not re-locate them? Obviously I have made a suggestion that is almost impossible due to laws about different animals in different homes ruining the environment and how it would take dedictaed people to do this and be able to get great, great numbers of them to release but create a area somewhere else with similar conditions and make sure that the area is protected to avoid having poachers etc. But although this would take years of work, why not?

Any one have any idea what numbers this mantis is down to now approximately?

Cheers, Cameron.


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## Chris Dickie

It wouldn't be very easy to re-loate them

fisrtly becaise ecosystems are usually well balanced, introducing a new predator could make other extinct

also the conditions would need to be right for the mantid, I have no idea how widespread this species is, I doubt many/any do so its hard to say whether it would adapt to another environment

also other environment may not provide same food, vitamins, minerals etc which could possibly prove a problem

sorry if this doesn't make sense, lol, reply and I'll reply again (notified of updated topics), I'm on the way to bed and thought I'd quickly include a couple of points


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## Christian

Hi.

I feel I have to add something. These mantids are not close to extinction or something. As long as there will be rainforests of a certain size left, they will survive. Look at the dried insect traders homepages. They sell them regularly, not to say in amounts. _Toxodera/Paratoxodera_ are rarer then other species as such, because they are rainforest species.

Breeding them in captivity will not change anything about their possible threat. All people who want to engage themselves in conservation should help save the rainforest. This will be more useful than any other thing. Breeding these taxa in captivity would simply 1. satisfy our curiosity and 2. may help understanding their life history. That's all.

Greetings,

Christian


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## Leah

I've just got around to reading this thread, and I am appalled. Healthy "debate" is encouraged here, but flatly negating someone's field of expertise, will NOT be tolerated. How many entomologists do you see in a typical forum? How often do you have the opportunity to actually TALK to people like this? Not often, because other people get upset when they believe their "expertise" is being questioned, and run others off.

This is not a forum for "my stick is bigger than your stick." Keep it professional, or keep it to yourself. Bottom line. Consider this fair warning...


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