# Wild Collected Gongy ooths



## mantisfart2 (Mar 13, 2010)

I posted this reply to Ians add about wild collected gongy ooths in the classifieds but it got deleted, i know the forum rules state that you cant post anything other than questions about the items for sale. So i have re posted it here where i hope it will be ok. I hope we still have the right to free speech on here, if there is a problem with this post could one of the mods please contact me before its deleted again. Thank you.



> why did you not raise some to adult from the ones you got last year and breed them yourself? its not hard if you put a bit of time and effort into it. But then again i guess its easier to import them and make a quick buck from them hey? hope theres lots to collect from the wild next year too, but how longs that going to last?


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## Rick (Mar 13, 2010)

I didn't delete it but I can see why it was deleted. Your reply to his ad doesn't belong according to the classifieds rules. You're not really asking a question about the item as if you're interested in buying it. Your reply falls more into the discussion category. The tone of your reply doesn't seem very nice either.


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## mantisfart2 (Mar 13, 2010)

like i said in the post above i understand the classified rules and i am glad my reply was only deleted because of it. As for the "tone" Rick all i did was first ask a question,then give a little advice followed by an opinion and finished with a statement. It was nothing personal against Ian or any one else who profit from the collection of wild collected ooths, just my opinion.


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## Rick (Mar 13, 2010)

mantisfart2 said:


> like i said in the post above i understand the classified rules and i am glad my reply was only deleted because of it. As for the "tone" Rick all i did was first ask a question,then give a little advice followed by an opinion and finished with a statement. It was nothing personal against Ian or any one else who profit from the collection of wild collected ooths, just my opinion.


But you know how things can come across in text. That's just what I got from it.

I didn't realize that you were reposting the question here. I thought you were asking why it was deleted. If you want to start another thread asking the question only then we can delete this thread.


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## mantisfart2 (Mar 13, 2010)

Rick said:


> But you know how things can come across in text. That's just what I got from it.
> 
> I didn't realize that you were reposting the question here. I thought you were asking why it was deleted. If you want to start another thread asking the question only then we can delete this thread.


thanks Rick, its fine here if thats ok, it may get more confusing if its moved again.


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## sufistic (Mar 13, 2010)

I understand where mantisfart2 is coming from. I make it a point not to look for/collect species that I already have for breeding unless breeding fails. Anyway, it's always more interesting to collect species that are not in culture and introducing them in. Just my 2 cents.


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## mantisfart2 (Mar 13, 2010)

Shaik Dont tar yourself with the same brush mate,  you have only taken a handfull of nymphs or adults of one particular Species then taken the time and effort to raise and breed them and in most cases even incubate the ooths that they then lay and its only then that you are distributing them all over the world for every one to enjoy them that keeps mantids.  And like you say once you have that species in culture you dont collect any more. This is the way myself and hopefully all other sensible mantid keepers should try to aquire our mantids that are not native to where we live or are not yet in culture. The difference with what Ian is doing, is in his own words on another forum he has said that he is importing 10 wild collected ooths, now if these hatch like my ooths did last year an average of 25 nymphs thats 250 nymphs just plucked out of the wild, in one go and if they where all collected from the same location what effect will that have on that species locally? Another question i would like to ask is how many did he import last year? If he sold the 10 quickly would he be tempted to order more? The other argument against this is that now the insect dealer he is in contact with in india knows that these ooths are now valuable, he may go out and collect as many as he can get his hands on just on the off chance he will be able to sell them. I know and admit that sometimes going through a insect dealer is the only way we can get species in culture, but i think this should be our last resort. When the species is so readyly available as it is in his own country and nearby Europe the only reason i can see for Ian doing it is financial gain which is a shame. If it is possible for Ian to cancel his order and says he intends to raise the nymphs and breed them before selling any i will gladley surply him with a couple of ,ooths from my own breeding stock hopefully in a month or two fingers crossed. There will have less chance of mine being infertile (100% hatch rate last year) and have no chance of them hatching out only parasitic wasps.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 13, 2010)

Ah, Mantisfart (what a cleverly chosen name!), you have now done what in American jurisprudence is called "opening the door." By overtly calling Ian's business ethics into question, you have opened the door to an attack on yours, admittedly an easier task than the one that you undertook in attacking him.

I will avoid some of the more obvious reasons why Ian may have not have raised gongies (after all, only he knows for sure). I am sure that you remember from your own uni years, though, that studying for exams can put a dent in your insect rearing time. I believe that your ersatz moral outrage, though, is in fact a reflection of your unhappiness at the fact that his sale of wild ooths may have cut into your sale of domestic ones, and indeed your offer at the end of yr last post, (unless of course, you were offering them to him for free) tips your hand. You are a merchant, touting your wares like any other merchant and, unable to find a way of promoting your product, attacking that of the opposition.

Usually, though, such "moral high ground" appeals ("we only sell coffee from fair traded coffee beans") are launched by professionals. Yours, obviously is not. Not content with one swipe at your competition, you take two swipes that cancel each other out!  

The first: Wild ooths are notoriously collected by kids who have little or no idea of the species that laid them. Often, such ooths are of a species other than advertised, are parasitized by wasps (a strange objection. A good friend recently sent me such an ooth, wasps and all. I knew that the ooth had to be fertile and in fact, it hatched 30+ nymphs, of Stagmomantis limbata), hatched (bummer) or infertile (likewise). These arguments are great as they stand, but seriously bite into argument #2.

The second, which you actually apply to Ian's ten (count them, ten out of the continent of Africa!), is that by buying them, he runs the risk of seriously depleting Africa's limited population of (fill in the species blank) and threatening their existence. You may have picked up this argument from Christian who was at Hamm today, marketing his own home grown merchandise. I have been in Africa, out in what we (probably ignorantly) called the bush of Kenya, and I would challenge anyone to say that any species of African insect is, or is at risk of being, wiped out. WE DON'T KNOW! I don't hear anyone object to the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of mounted insects in museums, and every mature female mantid may represent a number of ooths lost to the wild. The threat to any insect comes from the destruction of its habitat, not the action of a few amateur collectors, whose cache consist mainly (are you arguing this point?) hatched, infertile or parasitized ooths. Again, Christian has stated that although he lives in an area affected by CCS, he still takes bees because the number he takes will not impact the population. I agree, but do I smell special pleading here?

From your list of mantids in culture, Mantisfart, you appear to be a most able rearer of mantids, certainly light years ahead of me. Such skills are what seem to count on this forum, and rightly so. I am sure that there is a lot that we can learn from you about mantid husbandry, but any issues of moral turpitude that you may harbor are of little interest to anyone here, so there is no need to advertise them.


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## mantisfart2 (Mar 13, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> Ah, Mantisfart (what a cleverly chosen name!), you have now done what in American jurisprudence is called "opening the door." By overtly calling Ian's business ethics into question, you have opened the door to an attack on yours, admittedly an easier task than the one that you undertook in attacking him.
> 
> I will avoid some of the more obvious reasons why Ian may have not have raised gongies (after all, only he knows for sure). I am sure that you remember from your own uni years, though, that studying for exams can put a dent in your insect rearing time. I believe that your ersatz moral outrage, though, is in fact a reflection of your unhappiness at the fact that his sale of wild ooths may have cut into your sale of domestic ones, and indeed your offer at the end of yr last post, (unless of course, you were offering them to him for free) tips your hand. You are a merchant, touting your wares like any other merchant and, unable to find a way of promoting your product, attacking that of the opposition.
> 
> ...


First of all Phil maybe before you add your tuppence to a thread it maybe a good idea next time to brush up on your mantid general knowledge and maybe your Goegraphy too.

1, Gongylus gongylodes, also known as the wandering violin mantis or Indian rose mantis is native to southern India not africa as you stated above.

2, If as you stated above that children are being used to collect these ooths, should we not be trying to avoid this even more, shouldnt they have the oportunity to go to school and get a good education, maybe even go to Uni like Ian and yourself? Maybe then they may learn India is in Asia and not Africa.

3, To blow a big whole in your main argument yes the ooths i offered will be free as long as Ian agrees to my conditions in my previous post.

4, what type of devious coffee salesman would offer free coffee to his as you say "competitors"? If i was only interseted in money? Also please let me know why if i am only interested in money did i only this year supply two other gongy breeders here in the uk with my own stock when they had the misfortune to loose most of there stock and in one case all of them when a heater malfunctioned.

5 Not trying to portray my self as a saint here because i am not but what kind of guy thats only money orientated as you paint me out to be would also split up nymphs from 2 ooths that he bought from a member here (who i will pm you the name if you want and he knows this to be true). The species in question is new to culture, and the reason i split them was to give them better odds of getting established in culture here in the UK. I sent them at no cost to the other breeders i even paid p+p costs. Not good business sense hey  

6 what evidence do you have to back up your statement that as mantid breeders and rearers we will have no effect on wild population numbers by the amount of ooths we take from the wild. Surely it would be wise to tread with caution here and restrict as many ooths as possible that we take from the wild. As i said in my other post Ian has told me on another forum that he has ordered 10, how many did he order last year? How many would he order next time if no one had the balls to speak out? How many more entrepreneurs would jump on the band wagon and take the easy option of buying and selling wild collected ooths?

7 I only mentioned the parasitic wasps as Ian will probably admit to himself he has had problems with them before when selling wild collected ooths in the past on a forum in the UK called Bug Nation.

and last but not least what gives you the right to say my "moral turpitude" is of no interest to other members on here? Who do you think you are? when did everyone on here give up there right to there own thoughts and have to share yours? The secondary reason i posted my opions about this on this forum (the first being my concern for the reason to collect wild layed ooths of species that are already available in numbers,) is to help protect members on here and the other 2 forums that i posted my opinons on, what garrentee can Ian offer that these ooths will hatch? Has his suplier personally seen a conection with male and female? Has he personally stood over the ooth with a fly swatter? chasing away them pesky parasitic wasps? no i dont think so.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 13, 2010)

That's more like it, Wigan! I must say, that when I read your first posts, I thought that you were making a mealy mouthed attack on an administrator who, through no fault of his own, I happen to like. Now, having reread your original remarks and your new post, my opinion remains unchanged.

Yes, of course G. gongylodes comes from the Indian subcontinent. I am afraid that I was multitasking when I wrote that post and had in mind the similar charges against those who import wild _Idolomantis_ _diabolica._

Your second point is so delightful that I shall let it stand! You really know absolutely nothing about Indian social conditions, right?  

I really (truly) think that your offer of two gongie ooths to Ian, is impressive, though I make such offers and have been made such offers, privately rather than as a grandstand show. Would you like to make your offer to me instead?  I would be happy to abide by your conditions!

A quick rereading of my post will show you that I never said that you are only interested in money. I am not even sure that you are a very good merchant (Napoleon would turn in his grave!), but by making such a charge against Ian, you open yourself to a similar charge. What you are guilty of is less avarice than an unwarranted public attack of a countryman on an American forum when a civilized person would have made a private enquiry.

Oh dear, this is not your arena and I should not drag/coax you into it Recently I joined a phasmid forum. Two people have already contacted me offering me phasmid nymphs and eggs. I have little doubt that if I were in Bradford and broadcast, via the internet, my interest in mantids, you would be there to help me out. No, of course you are not a bad lad. The only thing that I would suggest is that you have an unfortunate view of decorum. Maybe, your anger at Ian could be expressed more profitably in private, at least initially? You ask what guarantee Ian can give that his ooths will hatch. Some of the folks that I deal on this forum offer no such guarantee but offer a refund or makeup if an ooth fails to hatch. Frey, a dealer here, offers a public guarantee, a rarity, and kruszakas offers the same in private, but Christian is on record as saying that he offers none, so that of itself says little.

A couple of technical details, since we have gone this far. The onus of proof in a discussion of whether collecting wild ooths in India or Africa is detrimental to the species lies not with those who say that, as with countless other insects, it does no harm, but with those like yourself, if I understand you correctly, who say that it does. Also, "moral turpitude" may not mean what you think it does.

Go in peace Wigan. I don't want to fight with you, and I suggest that you regale us with stories of how you raise your amazing collection of mantids rather than attacking our countrymen.


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## mantisfart2 (Mar 15, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> That's more like it, Wigan! I must say, that when I read your first posts, I thought that you were making a mealy mouthed attack on an administrator who, through no fault of his own, I happen to like. Now, having reread your original remarks and your new post, my opinion remains unchanged.
> 
> Yes, of course G. gongylodes comes from the Indian subcontinent. I am afraid that I was multitasking when I wrote that post and had in mind the similar charges against those who import wild _Idolomantis_ _diabolica._
> 
> ...


Ahh sheffield, great excuse for the slip up on the gongys coming from africa and not asia mmmm multitasking i must remember that one next time i post something i know little about. Tell me Phil do you use your left hand or your right when your "multitasking"?

Can i ask? because Ian is an administrator does it mean everyone has to agree with every thing he says or does on here? Does he get even more protection making him "untouchable" because hes your friend? Like i said when rick asked me all i did was ask a question, then give a little advice followed by an opinion and finished with a statement none of which to my knowledge are against forum rules. I think if i had pm'd him my opinion it would probably have been ignored just like my offer to supply him with ooths if he cancels his order, which throws even more fuel on my fire that he is only doing it for financial gain.

Personaly i dont know what difference his nationality makes, if he was american, canadian, mexican or european i would have still had the same opinion on what hes doing, what a shame hes not, you could have used that against me some how hey Phill?

The offer to Ian still stands but as for you Phill i know we had our run ins on the sushi gate thread, where i likened you to the scare crow or was it the tin man in the wizzard of OZ i forget now, which by the way is a MGM production and not Disney as you said ( thats two bits of general knowledge you gained from a lowly working class lad from Wigan this week) but since then i have tried to be as civil as i can be with you on here and even welcoming you on other forums that you joined after me, but for you to be getting any ooths from me the saying snowball in hells chance comes to mind, i would even go as far to quote another wigan saying that you may be familiar with " I wouldnt cross the street to piss on you if you where on fire"

Look forward to your reply, take it easy on me i know you like a argument and you have got very good at having a pop at other members on here too, which i have noticed nothing gets said about that, maybe thats a perk of having admin as friends? Like i said before i am only a working class lad who hasnt had the privallage of your higher education, dont use to many big words, i dont have time to have my nose stuck in a dictionary all night i have to go off and attend to my what did you call it? " amazing mantid collection " if it was a breeding and rearing mantid competition i may have stood a chance. oh well.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 15, 2010)

mantisfart2 said:


> Ahh sheffield, great excuse for the slip up on the gongys coming from africa and not asia mmmm multitasking i must remember that one next time i post something i know little about. Tell me Phil do you use your left hand or your right when your "multitasking"?
> 
> Can i ask? because Ian is an administrator does it mean everyone has to agree with every thing he says or does on here? Does he get even more protection making him "untouchable" because hes your friend? Like i said when rick asked me all i did was ask a question, then give a little advice followed by an opinion and finished with a statement none of which to my knowledge are against forum rules. I think if i had pm'd him my opinion it would probably have been ignored just like my offer to supply him with ooths if he cancels his order, which throws even more fuel on my fire that he is only doing it for financial gain.
> 
> ...


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 15, 2010)

Ah, poor ignorant working class bloke from Wigan! Take heart, mate! My granddad was a tram conductor in Woolwich and my Dad was a greengrocer in Bradford, so I am not very impressed by your working class credentials.

I should probably have not used the word "multitasking". It has four syllables and evidently confused you. Left hand?  You do know that some folks call gongies "Indian rose mantids" right?  

If you are unfamiliar with Walt Disney's Wizard of Oz, remember that Google is your friend. My bet is that you are not really that ignorant and are simply putting me on.

Here's the bottom line, mantisfart. You accused Ian of selling gongy ooths to make a "quick buck" but you don't have anything 'personal" against him! Good. You sell your mantids., I believe: I don't. I either give mine away or trade them, and I don't publicly offer anything with strings attached, but I have "nothing personal" against you and your profit motive, either.

You suggest that the administrators cut me slack because they are my friends. You are half right. They may cut me some slack, not out of friendship but because they recognize incipient (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incipient) senility (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/senility) when they see it.

This is it for me on this topic my son. Replying to what you no doubt think of as brilliant wit is neither edifying nor entertaining for me. Keep up your great work in mantis husbandry, and educate us on the finer points of the art!


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## mantisfart2 (Mar 15, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> Ah, poor ignorant working class bloke from Wigan! Take heart, mate! My granddad was a tram conductor in Woolwich and my Dad was a greengrocer in Bradford, so I am not very impressed by your working class credentials.
> 
> I should probably have not used the word "multitasking". It has four syllables and evidently confused you. Left hand?  You do know that some folks call gongies "Indian rose mantids" right?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the dictionary quotations  maybe your not that bad after all, maybe i will send you some ooths now. I will gladley share all my mantid knowledge with you mate  see you in the fog


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