# And these are supposed to be hard to catch



## MantidLord (Jun 1, 2010)

Hey all, as some of you may know, a couple of weeks ago I caught 27 I. otatoria nymphs. Well, between yesterday and today, I've increased that number to well in the forties. However, I won't be keeping the newbies.

But, during my capture of 6 nymphs yesterday, I noticed that one would never jump, only run (making it kind of tricky to catch). Anyway, I caught it nonetheless and went on my way. But when I went home to organize everyone, that runner stuck out. Same size as everyone else, except its body stayed close to the ground and it has eyes like a locust. I knew it was a different species, but what?

That's right, L. minor! I've never fathomed them being in Nevada (even though they're a desert species), but here it was. So today, I set off to a bike trail to hunt some more. Immediately, the I. oratoria nymphs started jumping everywhere . Finally I started seeing L. minor nymphs of all sizes. I caught six total of those guys (who's population was far less dense than I. oratoria's who were everywhere).


----------



## MantidLord (Jun 1, 2010)

And the thing is, they weren't hard to catch. Granted there was one that did escape me, but for the most part it was a heck of a lot easier than catching lizards.

So am I just a freak of nature, or are these guys all hype? And more importantly, what are requirements for these guys? I'll post pics of them as well as the spot where they and I. oratoria nymphs were held. Nice to see two species right by eachother.


----------



## Peter Clausen (Jun 1, 2010)

I enjoyed reading about your collecting efforts for these species and look forward to the photos. There are several _Litaneutria_ spp. in the US.


----------



## Rick (Jun 1, 2010)

Don't know. Never had the opportunity to see them in the wild. I do hope some end up in the classifieds though.


----------



## massaman (Jun 1, 2010)

Found this caresheet for this species not sure if its accurate or not!

Litaneutria Minor - Ground Mantis Caresheet


----------



## MantidLord (Jun 1, 2010)

Thanks guys, after doing some research on other Litaneutria species, its quite possible that this is L. obscura (I apologize if this comes as a disappointment to anyone). However, sense I'm no expert, I dont know. Anyway, here they are:





















compared to an I. oratoria nymph.

Let me know if the links dont work.


----------



## hibiscusmile (Jun 1, 2010)

The links work fine and I am with Rick, hope to see em here, and a mantis is a mantis, no matter what's its name :tt2:


----------



## MantidLord (Jun 1, 2010)

Thanks, I wanna catch some more and send them out to you guys. I also want to start a culture of these guys as well. On a side note, I have what appears to be an l1, very small, but able to take down aphids. I assume you could feed spring tails as well. Will keep this updated with info, and hopefully create an offer in the classifieds real soon. Lol, so many walked by me when I was collecting them, as if I were crazy.


----------



## yen_saw (Jun 2, 2010)

Good find! The ground mantis you have there is likely older than L1. There were plenty of ground mantis during my recent trip to Arizona. Caught one subadult male ground mantis too which make me think that there could be 2 breeding cycle in places like Southern Arizona. All the best with the mantis.


----------



## ismart (Jun 2, 2010)

Cool find! Good luck in breeding a new generation.


----------



## MantidLord (Jun 3, 2010)

Thanks guys. it is possible that they have two generations, because I caught what I believe to be an l1, and it molted. I also have something that molted to what appears to be a subadult. I caught six more yesterday, will post pics later.


----------



## hibiscusmile (Jun 3, 2010)

Wow, crazy huh! u the man! :tt2:


----------



## MantidLord (Jun 14, 2010)

Update: I haven't gone collecting in a while as I don't want to bleed the area of ground mantids. However I did go out yesterday where I caught two adult female Litaneutria sp. One has a beautiful pattern of blue and grey, while the other one is tan. As of the ones I've already had, I have two sub males and one sub female. I also have about 8 more at various instars. I've been taking pics, but uploading via ps3 is ridiculous (my camera won't upload directly, so I have to chang memory cards bla bla) so I'll try to post them asap. And boy are these things aggressive and small.


----------



## ismart (Jun 14, 2010)

Cool! Look foward to your pics!


----------



## Dracomancer (Jul 3, 2010)

looks alot like the one im currently taking care of O_O could not find info on what he is anywhere lol


----------



## Ntsees (Jul 4, 2010)

MantidLord said:


> ...I don't want to bleed the area of ground mantids...


The way how I deal with this is that once the females become adult and are mated, I gorge them with food so that they'll lay as many ooths that they possibly can. That way, you can release (or put ooths back to that area in winter) the instars to overcompensate for the ones you took  (make sure you do your release with natural timing - don't hatch/release nymphs late in the season or in the dead of winter). For the ones you caught, it should be good because in your hands, they are safe from predators.


----------



## MantidLord (Jul 4, 2010)

That's true, I haven't gone back collecting yet, +100 degrees is too hot. But I do intend to release some future hatchlings. I just want to understand their "season" and whether or not they have overlapping generations. And I've sort of neglected this thread. So an update is in order.

I have a total of three ooths so far. One of the wild adults layed one before dying. The other wild caught was mated by my male over 10 times! With no cannibalism. She has laid two (or three, will explain confusion) ooths and still eating. The male has also mated twice with another of my females, no ooth yet. I have another sub adult male and female, and five other nymphs.

These guys are great, very easy to breed. All I did was let the male's antenna touch the female and jumped on, in my hand! They readily tackle prey and are easy to handfeed if no small feeders are available. They're like lizards arms.

Onyl frustrating part is that the lay ooths on the ground. The ooths blend in well with my sand/soil substrate...


----------



## MantidLord (Jul 4, 2010)

...hince the confusion with my ooths (the female suddenly became skinny, but I don't see an ooth, no crix in there either). despite being "ground" mantids they prefer twigs and the top of cages. They can molt on the ground and branches (at least the younger ones) A great species and glad I found them. I need batteries for my camera to post their beautiful speckled colors.


----------



## Ntsees (Jul 5, 2010)

MantidLord said:


> That's true, I haven't gone back collecting yet, +100 degrees is too hot. But I do intend to release some future hatchlings. I just want to understand their "season" and whether or not they have overlapping generations. And I've sort of neglected this thread. So an update is in order.
> 
> I have a total of three ooths so far. One of the wild adults layed one before dying. The other wild caught was mated by my male over 10 times! With no cannibalism. She has laid two (or three, will explain confusion) ooths and still eating. The male has also mated twice with another of my females, no ooth yet. I have another sub adult male and female, and five other nymphs.
> 
> ...


Interesting. It would be good for you to find out the season. But considering how you already caught adults and/or subadults, the siblings (the wild ones) of the adults you caught should also be adults and should be laying ooths as well. If that's the case, then placing your new ooths back to where you caught them now or later should be alright. Since some people did mention their interest in the species, and considering that each ooth can produce many many nymphs, one ooth should be more than enough to overcompensate for your "take" right?  But of course, you can put more than that.

It would also be good if you knew where wild females lay their ooths (under the shade of plants or in the open and subject to 100+ degree temps). If it's in the open, then those ooths sure are resilient against the hot temperature. I'm just thinking what if you were to try and hatch the ooths you had now because you would use heat like anyone else(but the funny thing is that outside according to what you said might be hotter than the temperature you might incubate them with). If you are able to hatch them within a few months, then it might be true that there are overlapping generations. If not, then the species may need to go through a pause before they can hatch. Anyways, I'm just throwing stuff out there so good luck!


----------



## MantidLord (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, after about a month after the first laid ooth from one of my females, they finally hatched. They must have hatched either yesterday or two days ago. Unfortunately, about 5 or 6 died, leaving me with 7 left. No worries though, as the ooth doesn't seem to be finished hatching, and I have three more from that female (mated a ridiculous amount of times). However, a series of brutal cannibalisms and random deaths (and one old age death) have left me with one adult female and two sub-adult males. The females can live fairly long, so she should be able to have a lot of life left in her by the time the males are ready to do their thing.

The whole fact that these guys hatched during the summer does support the idea that their generations may overlap. You figure, it's been 113 degrees here, yet my house is kept at around 78. So if they hatched about a month in this "environment", imagine how soon they hatched out in the wild. :blink: I guess that's one reason they're able to coexist with the larger and more abundant I. oratoria (that and their aggressive attitude).

As far as the little ones go, as expected, they're too small for even melanogaster, so I've thrown some springtail culture stuff in their enclosure, and they started to eat some springtails. Unfortunately a couple of those mite things are in there as well. I saw three mantids attempt to eat them, but apparently they are unedible and they dropped them. I expected the mite thing to either die or climb upon the mantis. Good thing the latter didnt happen. Maybe they're a predatory mite that feeds off of springtails. Either way the springtail populations are still fairly large.

Not to sound like a broken tape recorder, but pics will be coming soon. Especially now that I have a computer.


----------



## Ntsees (Jul 28, 2010)

MantidLord said:


> Well, after about a month after the first laid ooth from one of my females, they finally hatched. They must have hatched either yesterday or two days ago. Unfortunately, about 5 or 6 died, leaving me with 7 left. No worries though, as the ooth doesn't seem to be finished hatching, and I have three more from that female (mated a ridiculous amount of times). However, a series of brutal cannibalisms and random deaths (and one old age death) have left me with one adult female and two sub-adult males. The females can live fairly long, so she should be able to have a lot of life left in her by the time the males are ready to do their thing.
> 
> The whole fact that these guys hatched during the summer does support the idea that their generations may overlap. You figure, it's been 113 degrees here, yet my house is kept at around 78. So if they hatched about a month in this "environment", imagine how soon they hatched out in the wild. :blink: I guess that's one reason they're able to coexist with the larger and more abundant I. oratoria (that and their aggressive attitude).
> 
> ...


Nice. The generations do overlap then. Have you tried hatching any ooths with actual outside temps (as if they were in the wild and subject to ~113 degrees) and see if they will still hatch?


----------



## MantidLord (Jul 28, 2010)

Ntsees said:


> Nice. The generations do overlap then. Have you tried hatching any ooths with actual outside temps (as if they were in the wild and subject to ~113 degrees) and see if they will still hatch?


No I haven't I didn't want to risk drying them out (despite them thriving in those conditions). With my bad luck lately in failing to hatch chinese, M. religiosa, and I. oratoria ooths, I didn't want to take any chances. I guess I could test it out on upcoming ooths though. Oh, and the ooths are placed facing "up" (the zipper part facing up), so there's no need to hang the ooths. Cool species, but their small size at this stage is frustrating, I hope I can find a better way to feed them springtails. If only I had some aphids.


----------



## MantidLord (Jul 30, 2010)

Had about 9 hatch out this morning/last night. Contrary to what I read somewhere about them hatching one at a time, I actually witnessed three hatch at the same time. Didn't take long for them to hatch and start running around either.

So far, okay. Not sure if the older ones are finding the springtails in their enclosure, so I'm probably going to try something different. I actually hand fed one of them a fruitfly  Lot of patience, hopefully it's worth it. I also still have the adult female waiting patiently for the two males to hurry up. I'm stuffing them and heating them up to get them jump started. Wish me luck.


----------



## MantidLord (Aug 19, 2010)

Man these nymphs are a pain. Out of all the little hatchlings I've had, only one is still alive. It seems they didn't do well with the paper towel substrate, so I put this last one in a container without any. I've been feeding it springtails, but it seems he can't/won't eat them. Here's what happens. He (for simplicity's sake) stalks the springtail, runs towards it, grabs it, chews on it, and drops it. He's so skinny I'm afraid he won't make it.  

And to make matters worst, one of the subadult males got eaten by a cricket (and it wasn't even molting). The mantis was easily able to catch the cricket, but it didn't. And the other sub adult male molted to an adult, so I put him with the female. And he mounts the female constantly (probably five times), but I've never seen a connection. I haven't been staring at them, but every time I saw him on her, never a connection, so who knows. And know, I'm praying that he got the job done, because she layed a very small ooth and then ate him!  

So I'm left with one female who may/may not be pregnant and a reluctant possibly dying nymph. Isn't this great. I still love these guys, but the nymphs are too dang weak! :angry: 

Hopefully when it cools down, I can go and look for some more.


----------



## massaman (Aug 19, 2010)

thats like the chinese and europeans they also are weak as newly hatched nymphs!


----------



## MantidLord (Aug 19, 2010)

Yeah, but with the chinese, at least you get a couple of strong ones that pull through. The nymph is still alive. We shall see how everything goes. By the way, has anyone ever raised this species from L1 to adult?


----------

