# Mostro is sick! Male Ghost mantid. Poisoned?



## MantidBro (Feb 18, 2013)

UPDATED

Day 1: Mostro's abdomen started looking wet and sticky, as if it were drenched in something. Turned out to be runny feces.

Days 2 and 3: He started puking. A lot. Orange in color. Smelled slightly. He couldn't keep even water up, never mind food. He wasn't able to defecate, but was trying hard to.

Day 4: I took the risk to give him antibiotics; clavamox. That morning, he drank and ate, but puked afterward. Hours after giving him clavamox, he was able to drink and eat and keep it down. He also was able to defecate, though a small amount.

Day 5 (today): This morning he was able to eat and drink without puking, again. By mid-day, he was given more water and food, and that time he puked, but much less than previous, and it was clearer in color, rather than orange, and didn't have an odor. I think I gave him too much too soon, plus, I didn't give him any clavamox at that point. Later I did and he drank it, thirsty. Later I tried again with food, which he was able to keep in. He was also active today which is always a good sign, and he was able to defecate again, this time more than yesterday.

I think he'll make it through this as long as I keep doing what I'm doing. Which is:

.Very often offer him water.

.Keep trying to give him food, just not too much at a time (if he doesn't eat, he WILL die. As long as he doesn't puke every time he's fed, there's a good chance he won't die of starvation).

.Giving him a daily dose of clavamox (antibiotic).

.Don't over-stimulate him. Let him rest in his container.

This morning, before he puked, I thought he was around 80%. Now I reduced it to 70%. 70 is still much better than previous, which was like, 35%!

PREVIOUS

Another mantid to get sick. The cage was cleaned with antibacterial soap, any outdoor sticks/rocks have been boiled, so it can't be from that. I've been giving them meal worms, been doing fine. Recently bought them super worms, were okay.

But Mostro, my male Phyllocrania paradoxa, has been puking. Has runny feces. His entire abdomen is drenched in wetness from it. I tried getting it off but I can't without being rough, which I can't risk, seeing how he's so small. He can't keep anything up. I only gave him a small bit of water this morning and he ended up puking it up. He refuses to eat food at this point. Drinks a lot, as if dehydrated, but ends up puking it back up.

This happened to three other mantids of mine. Sir, Majesty, and Dakon. It was caused by tap water (thought it was filtered, turned out not to be). And they gave off a very terrible, specific smell, especially when they puked. I smelled Mostro's puke, and it didn't smell the way it did when they puked... rather, it smelled like some cricket food I've been feeding to the super worms. Called 'Flucker's orange cube cricket diet'. I'm thinking it's poisoned him... On the container, it says to feed the cricket to the pet at a specific time after the cricket consumes it. Is this because they die after a while, so you need to give them to your pet before they die? Either way, I'm at that point where I feel guilty for what I've done and am preparing for him to die. But even though I'm prepared, I'm also doing as much as I can to keep him alive.

Has anyone else ever dealt with this? Is it just my mantids who always die of this? I feel bad to keep mantids and get more, it seems they all die before their time. I feel like a mantid murderer.

Please get back to me.


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## aNisip (Feb 18, 2013)

Keep giving him water...it helps get the bad stuff out (like flushing his little body)....when he drink he'll throw it up, just keep giving him fresh water every time....I never use fluker cubes ... (for moisture or food) (maybe you should have waited before feeding) but I always use mix of fishfood and turtle pellets ground up together and add some be pollen (flower power/yens blend) all in a bottle cap.....also I use a slice of potatoe or chunk of lettuce thrown on top of their bedding (i use oatmeal).... (always replace when it gets old (so mold doesn't grow)) ...This is how I care for my supers and regular mealies...

All the best,

Andrew

P.S. (if possible) always gutload feeder insects that you bought at pet store for at least a week to make sure they have healthy diet so u have a healthy mantis... (and any feeders that die in this time were sick and died before ur mantis could eat them and get sick)


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## Digger (Feb 18, 2013)

MB,

For what it's worth, these exactly are the symptoms Nikki Mantis had just before she died. Just g-d dam awful. Her vomiting and runny poop began shortly after I fed her a mealworm. But because of her advanced age, I can't be sure it had something to do with the worm. Although, I will say the mealworms (Pet Smart) had not been gut loaded. If it comes from a store, it should be thoroughly gutloaded with pure clean high quality food. My feeder crix have been given Flukers for a long time with no ill effects to the crix or mantids. NOT the orange stuff. The gold/amber/pee-colored gel.

Nikki's excretions (particularly from the back end) reeked horribly, so I know there was a systemic breakdown of some sort. Discounting Nikki's advanced age, the only variable was feeding her that mealworm. Sounds like you have an optimum environment. Only (only only only) distilled water. Fully-gutloaded feeders (at least 48 hrs). No chemicals or cleaners within miles of the habitats --- this is **especially** important for products like 409, Fantastic and cleaners like them. These have an instantly lethal affect on any arthropod.

I very much hope Mostro can survive this.

Digger


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## MantidBro (Feb 18, 2013)

AndrewNisip said:


> Keep giving him water...it helps get the bad stuff out (like flushing his little body)....when he drink he'll throw it up, just keep giving him fresh water every time....I never use fluker cubes ... (for moisture or food) (maybe you should have waited before feeding) but I always use mix of fishfood and turtle pellets ground up together and add some be pollen (flower power/yens blend) all in a bottle cap.....also I use a slice of potatoe or chunk of lettuce thrown on top of their bedding (i use oatmeal).... (always replace when it gets old (so mold doesn't grow)) ...This is how I care for my supers and regular mealies...
> 
> All the best,
> 
> ...


Yeah I keep giving him water because I know he'll die of dehydration if I don't, what with puking the way he is. At this point, his abdomen keeps pulsing, abnormal behavior as he's not eating, molting, or hot. Just hanging upside down, seeming weaker than before. Flucker's cubes were a recent addition to the super worm's diet so I'm afraid it might be because of that. That could be a good thing, compared to being infected by bactiera or something of the like, as he might be able to live through it once the poison's out of his system. I hope that'll be the case, anyways, but not really too sure it'll be that way. I wil continue with water, and try again to give food, see if he'll take to it. I'm going back to not using the flucker's cubes and only natural foods like lettuce and carrots now. I remove it when it dries up and isn't eaten, and replace it with new food, so no mold grows. Thanks for the info.

Yeah I realized the hard way with another mantid, that you should gut load any feeders before giving them to your mantid. One of my mantids died just after eating a cricket from a new batch.


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## MantidBro (Feb 18, 2013)

Digger said:


> MB,
> 
> For what it's worth, these exactly are the symptoms Nikki Mantis had just before she died. Just g-d dam awful. Her vomiting and runny poop began shortly after I fed her a mealworm. But because of her advanced age, I can't be sure it had something to do with the worm. Although, I will say the mealworms (Pet Smart) had not been gut loaded. If it comes from a store, it should be thoroughly gutloaded with pure clean high quality food. My feeder crix have been given Flukers for a long time with no ill effects to the crix or mantids. NOT the orange stuff. The gold/amber/pee-colored gel.
> 
> ...


Sorry that Nikki died, and that she died from eating a meal worm. I don't know why that happens. Some worms/crickets they eat can be infected without even knowing it. My Tenodera sinensis died from eating a cricket from a bad batch. Some say gut loading them is important. I hadn't gut loaded any of them yet as I'd just bought them before I fed it to her. But she became instantly ill after eating it. Then died within two days.

But yeah, now having the same issue with my Phyllocrania paradoxa. It does suck when your pets die, to a degree, no matter what it is. Mine is young, so it's not old age. And now you mention gut loading, that really might be a reason they die. The golden gel, I've used that before, it's not the same as the cubes. The cubes give off a citris-y smell. I read on the back that it has two types of acid in it, not sure if that ingredient might have been what's made him sick. I will start to gut load my feeder foods now, and only with natural foods, like lettuce and carrots. And I always make sure to avoid sprays and stuff, when my sister puts cologne on, I tell her, 'not near my mantids'.

I hope he can too. I'm trying to stay positive but puking is always a bad sign...


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## Paradoxica (Feb 18, 2013)

I'd take carrots off the menu to be safe.


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## MantidBro (Feb 19, 2013)

Paradoxica said:


> I'd take carrots off the menu to be safe.


Mostro was fine eating prey that ate carrots, it was the fake carrot cubes meant for crickets that I think might have poisoned him (The Flucker's cubes), once he ate the worm that consumed that... I'm definitely taking it off the menu, though. All natural for any feeders, now.


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## aNisip (Feb 19, 2013)

How's he doing now? Keep giving him water...


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## MantidBro (Feb 19, 2013)

AndrewNisip said:


> How's he doing now? Keep giving him water...


He's still alive, which is a good sign. My other mantids who started puking died within two days and were extremely weak. He's been dealing with this for four, and is still swaying/looking around/crawling. Another good sign.

This morning I gave him water. He drank it. Was fine. Then I put some wax worms guts on his claw. When he refuses to eat, I stick it to his claws, so he has no choice but to clean it off. Because he WILL die if he doesn't eat. Once he did, he puked, as it was in his mouth. As if it absolutely repulsed him.

After, I flicked more water onto him, so he'd get more hydration after puking. He cleaned it off.

Mid-day, I read online that invertebrates can be given antibiotics when infected with bacteria. My cat had some left over for a UTI. I ground it up, put a tiny amount in Mostro's water, then gave it to him. He didn't puke it up.

Now, tonight, he was active enough to actually climb up the side of his container. He had to fight for it, too, because it's a slippery container, but he didn't stop until he was at the top. Showing that activity, I decided I'd feed him again. I tried the wax worm, and he ate a small amount, but dropped the rest. He didn't puke, a good sign, but wasn't interested, either, and he needed to eat. So I risked a cricket leg. And he actually ate a third of it, willingly, on his own. Not much, but something, and willingly, AND he didn't puke after.

So right now, no more wax worms, no more super worms. Cricket legs. Plenty of water. And antibiotic once daily. I feel the antibiotic is really working because he's shown improvement.


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## aNisip (Feb 19, 2013)

Glad to hear the improvement! And its very interesting abt the antibiotics...I know that that's basically what they are made for, but not to heal a sick mantis  Also don't forget honey! It is very much like an antibiotic w/ healing properties and full of dietary benefits...and I used cricket drumsticks all the time when I didn't have anything else.....


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## agent A (Feb 19, 2013)

I would only use flies for ghost nymphs and roaches for adults along with flies

They cant stomach any of that other garbage


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## Digger (Feb 19, 2013)

OMG. A pharmaceutical antibiotic! Very clever and very risky. Certainly glad it seems to have a positive affect. Perhaps Viagra for those males that have a tough time mounting the female mantid?


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## agent A (Feb 19, 2013)

Digger said:


> OMG. A pharmaceutical antibiotic! Very clever and very risky. Certainly glad it seems to have a positive affect. Perhaps Viagra for those males that have a tough time mounting the female mantid?


but your erictile dysfunction can be a matter of hemolymph flow

cialis for hourly use allows you to successfully transmit the spermetaphore and pass on your genes...


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## MantidBro (Feb 20, 2013)

AndrewNisip said:


> Glad to hear the improvement! And its very interesting abt the antibiotics...I know that that's basically what they are made for, but not to heal a sick mantis  Also don't forget honey! It is very much like an antibiotic w/ healing properties and full of dietary benefits...and I used cricket drumsticks all the time when I didn't have anything else.....


He's actually almost 100% today! I was like, 'no way!' I'm wicked pleased at the moment. He ate last night, no puking, ate this morning, no puking!  And his abdomen is no longer pulsing. ALSO, he's having an easier time defecating, which he was having some trouble with over the last two days. I never thought to use it for a mantid either but I really think it worked, cause how else would he have improved so much when he was near death? I will try honey, see if he likes it. And he just refuses to eat the worms, so I HAVE to give him crickets.


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## MantidBro (Feb 20, 2013)

agent A said:


> I would only use flies for ghost nymphs and roaches for adults along with flies They cant stomach any of that other garbage


Kent-Lok eats the worms, gladly, but Mostro hates them. I don't know if it's just cause he can't stomach it right now or what, but he refuses to eat them, will only eat cricket. I actually bought them flies from online, I'm waiting for them, should get them this week. But in the mean time, cricks.


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## MantidBro (Feb 20, 2013)

Digger said:


> OMG. A pharmaceutical antibiotic! Very clever and very risky. Certainly glad it seems to have a positive affect. Perhaps Viagra for those males that have a tough time mounting the female mantid?


I did feel it was risky, but I figured, if it's bad for him, he was dying either way. But I definitely think it's what helped him, cause he went from almost dying to suddenly being like 80%! No more puking, not when I fed him last night, not when I fed him this morning. And his abdomen is no longer pulsing in that abnormal fashion. LOL viagra... xP I ain't risking THAT.


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## gripen (Feb 20, 2013)

Just out of curiosity how often do you spray your mantids?


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## Digger (Feb 20, 2013)

MB - whatever that antibiotic was, you should create a little black market. I would've tried some on Nikki Mantis! Dude, meet me behind the dumpsters at McDonalds. Cash, of course.


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## Krissim Klaw (Feb 20, 2013)

Mealworms and superworms are not something I would suggest as a staple diet. They are something that is best reserved as a a treat. I've found the chitin levels can can be hard on tiny mantis stomachs.


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## agent A (Feb 20, 2013)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Mealworms and superworms are not something I would suggest as a staple diet. They are something that is best reserved as a a treat. I've found the chitin levels can can be hard on tiny mantis stomachs.


I personally dont know how anyone or anything (except birds and fish) could feed mealworms to or eat mealworms and be healthy

Most amphibians get real sick from too many mealworms  

I dont use mealworms for anything but fishing bait


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## MantidBro (Feb 20, 2013)

gripen said:


> Just out of curiosity how often do you spray your mantids?


Only when they're getting ready to molt. Otherwise I put drops on my finger and let them drink it off that so their cages don't get too humid (which helps bacteria and such reproduce so I now avoid).


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## MantidBro (Feb 20, 2013)

Digger said:


> MB - whatever that antibiotic was, you should create a little black market. I would've tried some on Nikki Mantis! Dude, meet me behind the dumpsters at McDonalds. Cash, of course.


Lol. Right? If he does turn out to be fine after all this I'm definitely going to at least spread the word. I know, I'm thinking, I should have tried this with all my mantids who ever died of bacterial infections!  Lol, the medicine is called Clavamox, you can actually buy it online. Just if you ever use it, only use a tiny, tiny amount. I ground a forth of the pill, put it in an inch of water in a small cup, and dipped his mouth with the water. He didn't even seem to notice it was in there, drank willingly.


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## MantidBro (Feb 20, 2013)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Mealworms and superworms are not something I would suggest as a staple diet. They are something that is best reserved as a a treat. I've found the chitin levels can can be hard on tiny mantis stomachs.


Yeah a lot of people are saying that super worms aren't the best for mantids. I would have stuck with crickets, but a bad batch ended up killing my previous mantid, which turned me off to the idea of feeding any of my mantids crickets. What's chitin and what does it do to mantid stomachs? I did end up buying them flies online though which should come in soon.


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## MantidBro (Feb 20, 2013)

agent A said:


> I personally dont know how anyone or anything (except birds and fish) could feed mealworms to or eat mealworms and be healthy Most amphibians get real sick from too many mealworms  I dont use mealworms for anything but fishing bait


Super worms are healthier than meal worms, but they are similar, and a lot of people are saying even meal worms are bad. I don't feed them the shell, they eat the guts, but I think that's where all the unhealthy stuff comes from anyways.


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## agent A (Feb 20, 2013)

MantidBro said:


> Super worms are healthier than meal worms, but they are similar, and a lot of people are saying even meal worms are bad. I don't feed them the shell, they eat the guts, but I think that's where all the unhealthy stuff comes from anyways.


They have barely any meat on them anyway


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## MantidBro (Feb 21, 2013)

agent A said:


> They have barely any meat on them anyway


Yeah true.


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## BugLover (Feb 21, 2013)

any more updates on Mostro?


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## MantidBro (Feb 21, 2013)

BugLover said:


> any more updates on Mostro?


It's the 6th day. Today he didn't puke at all so far, and it's mid-day. He ate cricket and had water this morning. This afternoon had water and some tea (antibiotic properties). Going to feed him again tonight, see what happens. He's back to being his old self today it seems! I'd say he's 85% right now. Only reason I don't say 90% is because there's still time left in the day. If he doesn't puke today, he's up to 90%.


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## Sticky (Feb 21, 2013)

I am glad. I love a happy ending!


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## sally (Feb 21, 2013)

i am pulling for him!


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## MantidBro (Feb 22, 2013)

Sticky said:


> I am glad. I love a happy ending!


Me too! He's still alive, that's such a shock to me, considerin how unwell he was. He didn't puke even once yesterday after eating and drinking!! I'd say he's up to 90% better at this point. Hope it stays that way!


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## MantidBro (Feb 22, 2013)

sally said:


> i am pulling for him!


Me too, thank you


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## ScienceGirl (Feb 22, 2013)

MantidBro said:


> UPDATED
> 
> Day 1: Mostro's abdomen started looking wet and sticky, as if it were drenched in something. Turned out to be runny feces.
> 
> ...


ANTIBIOTICS!?!? Like, human stuff? If it is human stuff, I'd be surprised it didn't kill him...

Wishing him the BEST!

Fight through this, Mostro. :batman:


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## sally (Feb 22, 2013)

That is too bad! At least he may be improving....


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## MantidBro (Feb 23, 2013)

ScienceGirl said:


> ANTIBIOTICS!?!? Like, human stuff? If it is human stuff, I'd be surprised it didn't kill him...
> 
> Wishing him the BEST!
> 
> Fight through this, Mostro. :batman:


Not for humans, antibiotics for pets, small doses can help.

He ended up dying though, seemed great yesterday, but today was hardly able to keep himself up.

 

I'm glad I still have the female though... at least she's healthy


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## MantidBro (Feb 23, 2013)

sally said:


> That is too bad! At least he may be improving....


He died unfortunately, seemed better, but was hardly able to hold himself up today to my surprise...


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## BugLover (Feb 23, 2013)

sorry  

:innocent:


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## sally (Feb 24, 2013)

MantidBro said:


> He died unfortunately, seemed better, but was hardly able to hold himself up today to my surprise...


so sorry  my ghost did also) so sad...


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## agent A (Feb 24, 2013)

sally said:


> so sorry  my ghost did also) so sad...


Oh no   

I shall give u the $ back for the ghost


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## sally (Feb 24, 2013)

agent A said:


> Oh no   I shall give u the $ back for the ghost


no way. he was just lost in the mail too long. no worries.


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## MantidBro (Feb 24, 2013)

BugLover said:


> sorry
> 
> :innocent:


Thanks


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## MantidBro (Feb 24, 2013)

sally said:


> so sorry  my ghost did also) so sad...


Thank you, sorry yours died too


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## ScienceGirl (Feb 24, 2013)

MantidBro said:


> He died unfortunately, seemed better, but was hardly able to hold himself up today to my surprise...


MantidBro - so sorry for your loss, but excited to hear about your new ootheca hatching! What species?


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## Digger (Feb 25, 2013)

MB - lousy ending to the story. So sorry. Thought you had it there with the antibiotic.


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## MantidBro (Feb 25, 2013)

ScienceGirl said:


> MantidBro - so sorry for your loss, but excited to hear about your new ootheca hatching! What species?


Thanks. Yeah I'm excited too, they're Stagmomantis Carolina, selling some if you want any


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## MantidBro (Feb 25, 2013)

Digger said:


> MB - lousy ending to the story. So sorry. Thought you had it there with the antibiotic.


For real. Thanks. I thought I did too but one day when I woke up he was barely alive, looked thin, had an abnormal bulge. My friend who has a degree in biology said it was most likely an internal parasite


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## agent A (Feb 26, 2013)

MantidBro said:


> For real. Thanks. I thought I did too but one day when I woke up he was barely alive, looked thin, had an abnormal bulge. My friend who has a degree in biology said it was most likely an internal parasite


likely from the mealworms

they eat rotting wood u know, which is how parasites can be transmitted


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## MantidBro (Feb 26, 2013)

agent A said:


> likely from the mealworms
> 
> they eat rotting wood u know, which is how parasites can be transmitted


Damn. I stopped giving them crickets because my last mantid got infected by one. Now meal worms, too! What the heck!!

Flies from here on out.


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## ladygigi (May 11, 2013)

Digger said:


> MB,
> 
> For what it's worth, these exactly are the symptoms Nikki Mantis had just before she died. Just g-d dam awful. Her vomiting and runny poop began shortly after I fed her a mealworm. But because of her advanced age, I can't be sure it had something to do with the worm. Although, I will say the mealworms (Pet Smart) had not been gut loaded. If it comes from a store, it should be thoroughly gutloaded with pure clean high quality food. My feeder crix have been given Flukers for a long time with no ill effects to the crix or mantids. NOT the orange stuff. The gold/amber/pee-colored gel.
> 
> ...


Uh-oh. . . :blush: I just cleaned the glass doors of the terrarium with Windex yesterday (or the day before). :nuke: I sprayed the Windex onto a paper towel (not on the glass) and did that across the room, then walked over to the terrarium and wiped down the glass doors. I did not close them until they were dry. The terrariums' entire top is a screen, so there is lots of ventilation. Will my mantids be okay?  None of them are more than a 2nd or 3rd Instar. If they are to get sick from it, would I have noticed it by now? What should I look for?


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## ladygigi (May 11, 2013)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Mealworms and superworms are not something I would suggest as a staple diet. They are something that is best reserved as a a treat. I've found the chitin levels can can be hard on tiny mantis stomachs.


I have to agree with you Kriss. When Tartan, my lizard was still alive, I was told not to give him more than one superworm a month because they had such high levels of potassium. So, if my *lizard*, 2 or 3 times the size of a mantis, can only eat *one* *superworm* a *month*, then that kind of gives me an idea of how much I would want to give them to a mantis. . .


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## Sticky (May 11, 2013)

ladygigi said:


> Uh-oh. . . :blush: I just cleaned the glass doors of the terrarium with Windex yesterday (or the day before). :nuke: I sprayed the Windex onto a paper towel (not on the glass) and did that across the room, then walked over to the terrarium and wiped down the glass doors. I did not close them until they were dry. The terrariums' entire top is a screen, so there is lots of ventilation. Will my mantids be okay?  None of them are more than a 2nd or 3rd Instar. If they are to get sick from it, would I have noticed it by now? What should I look for?


Is vinegar safe to use? Or is it too acidic?


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## Tony C (May 11, 2013)

ladygigi said:


> I have to agree with you Kriss. When Tartan, my lizard was still alive, I was told not to give him more than one superworm a month because they had such high levels of potassium. So, if my *lizard*, 2 or 3 times the size of a mantis, can only eat *one* *superworm* a *month*, then that kind of gives me an idea of how much I would want to give them to a mantis. . .


I wouldn't infer too much regarding nutrition based on herp experience. The presence of an internal skeleton, among other things, greatly changes the equation. As one example, a high calcium diet will kill many insects but is needed for gravid female lizards.


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