# toxodera sp.



## Fishe (Apr 18, 2013)

Just out of curiosity does anybody on this forum have or used to have any toxodera sp. I consider this the king of mantids, even more than idolomantis


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## Mime454 (Apr 18, 2013)

People have tried to bring them back from their native Malaysia, but to my knowledge have never been successful in getting them to breed or even transporting them. It's something to do with the pressure.

If anyone ever gets them, I sure hope I'm on their good side!


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## brancsikia339 (Apr 18, 2013)

They never were in the US, to most of our knowledge. Two brothers (sufistic and khabirun) kept a toxodera beieri female for four months. They also had stenotoxodera porioni. They also need a very large cage or they supposedly commit suicide by chewing their limbs off and slowly eating themselves to death. To put it in a conclusion, nothing near for a novice keeper. There are over 20 species, most completely unknown except by appearance. To this day no one knows what toxodera ooths look like.


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## hibiscusmile (Apr 18, 2013)

wow, that's a lot of interesting info, I never knew, I do remember the guys though.


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## mantid_mike (Apr 18, 2013)

I want to camp out in Malaysia's jungles one day and find an ooth.


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## angelofdeathzz (Apr 18, 2013)

Fishe said:


> I consider this the king of mantids, even more than idolomantis


Now that my friend is a point of view, and not correct in the slightest!!!  Idolo are moving art forms...


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## Fishe (Apr 18, 2013)

haha, it would be quite the operation to camp out, find an ooth or some nymphs, smuggle them into the U.S, set up a huge, somewhat pressurized terrarium and breed and distribute them


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## Mime454 (Apr 18, 2013)

Fishe said:


> haha, it would be quite the operation to camp out, find an ooth or some nymphs, smuggle them into the U.S, set up a huge, somewhat pressurized terrarium and breed and distribute them


I know a guy that wants to do exactly that next year.


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## brancsikia339 (Apr 18, 2013)

The day i get out of college i want to go backpacking in malaysia and find some toxos.


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## Fishe (Apr 18, 2013)

brancsikia339 said:


> The day i get out of college i want to go backpacking in malaysia and find some toxos.
> 
> To succesfully breed them, you should probably start by slowly going down the mountain each year by breeding them, getting them accustomed to lower altitudes. A slow transition would make it easier for them


ill leave that up to you, seems hard


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## Mime454 (Apr 18, 2013)

brancsikia339 said:


> The day i get out of college i want to go backpacking in malaysia and find some toxos.
> 
> To succesfully breed them, you should probably start by slowly going down the mountain each year by breeding them, getting them accustomed to lower altitudes. A slow transition would make it easier for them


Sounds like something a crazy person might do. Plus, it seems like you have a Lamarckian view of how Evolution works.


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## gripen (Apr 18, 2013)

I think some species should be left in the wild...


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## Tony C (Apr 18, 2013)

I don't understand the pressurized terrarium idea, I've heard it from several sources and it just strikes me as an internet myth. If they are from high elevations, where the air is less dense and therefore exerts less pressure, why exactly would they need to be kept in a pressurized container? I suspect that the true problem with keeping them in captivity lies elsewhere.


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## Fishe (Apr 18, 2013)

I kind of just made that up, Ive never heard that anywhere, I guess it would have to be more of a vacuum than a pressurized enclosure


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## frogparty (Apr 18, 2013)

You don't need a reduced pressure environment, what you need is a more naturalistic enclosure with good humidity, airflow, and ready supply of a preferred food source. Too much heresy about this or that from people who don't know is just lame. There is NO precedent for keeping any montane insects that promotes a reduced pressure environment. They definitely need better care than sticking them in a plastic container with some fake plants. Want to see some awesome vivaria? Check out www.dendroboard.com. Internal air circulation, misting systems, the works.

People DO know what their ooths look like, there are former members that have collected them.


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## Bug Trader (Apr 18, 2013)

I know someone now with Toxodera ootheca, I will ask permission to post pics. The air pressure issues would be very debated, I have to say we dont know enough about the elevation of the species habitat. I would guess though that the species is just far more sensitive to changes in temp, humidity even elevation. I will see them in the wild next winter that is already a guarantee.


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## Chiniensis (Apr 19, 2013)

I visit the Cameron Highlands, where these things come from, every few weeks. I collect many different types of montane species from the same area and they survive very happily in the lowlands so long as they are not kept too hot. The Cameron Highlands is not that high in altitude! Most Toxodera are found at about 4,000 feet asl, which is not enough to create a need for pressurised habitats. Several species are found slightly lower than that and a few a bit higher - the highest peak is only about 5,000ft.

I have had a couple of Toxodera, which have all died within a few days. Certainly they are very frail. I used to get Ischnomantis on my game farm in South Africa, which is also a long mantis with a reputation for a short life span. The guy who worked for me found half a dozen over a 2 year period. By the time I had collected them and got them home they were weak. Other mantis stayed strong but every ischnomantis died within 24 hours. One day I found a specimen myself and immediately brought it home, sprayed it and put it in a big netting cage with lots of foliage etc. It thrived and laid several ootheca.

I suspect the same is true of Toxodera. By the time the insects are in captivity they have already been stressed. I hope to test this theory out one day but they are very hard to obtain!


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## Tony C (Apr 19, 2013)

frogparty said:


> You don't need a reduced pressure environment, what you need is a more naturalistic enclosure with good humidity, airflow, and ready supply of a preferred food source. Too much heresy about this or that from people who don't know is just lame. There is NO precedent for keeping any montane insects that promotes a reduced pressure environment. They definitely need better care than sticking them in a plastic container with some fake plants. Want to see some awesome vivaria? Check out www.dendroboard.com. Internal air circulation, misting systems, the works.
> 
> People DO know what their ooths look like, there are former members that have collected them.


I was talking to Mike about that a while back, I suspect a climate controlled chamber with conditions suitable for highland Nepenthes would be a good start.


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## Christian (Apr 19, 2013)

There is really too much nonsense in this thread, although the latest posts seem to better assess the problem. Air pressure is not an issue as long as you don't want to breed mantids from the stratosphere.

The reason why these species are found in the Cameron "Highlands" in Malaysia is that in the lowland most rainforest is cut down or replaced by oil palms. The animals would stay down there if they could...

The problems for rainforest species from higher altitudes can be related to stress, temperature (sometimes too high in the lowlands for specimens from a highland population, especially by night), humidy and ventilation. And, the specimens are usually caught for the dry insects trade by the natives, so there is no need to handle them properly. People should leave these creatures to the ones who know what they're doing. But of course everyone is born as an expert and thinks he can do it better. It's funny to see this type of thread popping up every once in a while.


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## Tony C (Apr 19, 2013)

The mantid hobby reminds me in many ways of the early days of dart frog keeping. It used to be that sterility and simplicity were considered absolutely necessary, enclosures were generally built with a base of aquarium gravel and used plastic plants and frequently broken down and sterilized. There was an irrational fear of parasites and bacteria which were typically blamed for losses. Most did poorly under such conditions and they quickly gained a reputation for difficulty that still persists.

Advancements in vivarium design and the culture of various microfauna species have allowed the easier species to absolutely thrive in captivity, and even the more difficult species like the various eggfeeders are now within reach of the intermediate hobbyist. I really believe that the key to some of the more difficult mantid species will be found in the miniature ecosystem approach of naturalistic vivaria.


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## jrh3 (Apr 19, 2013)

I Know People Who Kept Them, While They Are Very Neat Looking They Said They Are Very Fragile Species. Thats Why There Appearance Is So Camoflauged, They Have Little Defence Among Predators, They Also Didnt Do Good In Captivity. I Wouldnt Want To Own ONe. Too Much Trouble, Lol. Pressure Has Nothing To Do With It, The Problem They Had Was Mimmicing There Habitat. And Breeding.


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## Bug Trader (Apr 19, 2013)

jrh3 said:


> I Know People Who Kept Them, While They Are Very Neat Looking They Said They Are Very Fragile Species. Thats Why There Appearance Is So Camoflauged, They Have Little Defence Among Predators, They Also Didnt Do Good In Captivity. I Wouldnt Want To Own ONe. Too Much Trouble, Lol. Pressure Has Nothing To Do With It, The Problem They Had Was Mimmicing There Habitat. And Breeding.


Sounds like a living vivarium issue.. Tony is correct, advancments in this hobby are needed I see so many people just say it cant be done, I would like to personally give it a go one day.


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## glock34girl (Apr 19, 2013)

Iam working on a live viv right now. They are so simple to make and look so much better and are stackable. Never knew there was something better than an idolo.


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## brancsikia339 (Apr 19, 2013)

i was just reading from many previous toxo threads and discussions, all mentioning pressurized vivs. i always thought it was a silly idea, but the only explanation available. I had no idea other members knew what toxo ooths looked like. i'd sure love to see what one looks like!


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## brancsikia339 (Apr 19, 2013)

Mime454 said:


> Sounds like something a crazy person might do. Plus, it seems like you have a Lamarckian view of how Evolution works.


That was mentioned in multiple threads (breeding them down altitude). Like i said in the previous post all i know about them is what was mentioned in previous threads on various sites and some other sources.

Personally i wouldn't do that! That'd be crazy!


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## Rick (Apr 20, 2013)

I have some dead ones. :shifty:


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## brancsikia339 (Apr 20, 2013)

I have two dead ones as well. T. maculata is the larger and P. cornicollis is the smaller

P. cornicollis







T. maculata in comparison


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## Christian (Apr 21, 2013)

Naturalistic vivaria are used already in Europe for mantids (not for all, depending on species). Aside from legal issues, that is the reason why there are more difficult species in culture here. Deli-cups and the like are just not enough for some species.


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## frogparty (Apr 21, 2013)

Christian- I couldn't agree more. Even the USA spider hobby has started utilizing more naturalistic vivaria to a large extent.

To me, keeping a mantis in a deli cup seems pretty lame, and really feeds the feeling that people have "Pokemon syndrome" where they would rather have more species, regardless of care etc, than work with a few species and provide much better care for them


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## Christian (Apr 23, 2013)

Pokemon syndrome... :lol: that's good...


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## Bug Trader (Apr 23, 2013)

Christian said:


> Naturalistic vivaria are used already in Europe for mantids (not for all, depending on species). Aside from legal issues, that is the reason why there are more difficult species in culture here. Deli-cups and the like are just not enough for some species.


I agree, and in the US hobby there seems to be a "bare minimal" mind set to keep them going. I just dont know if leading by example is even enough to change this here.


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## frogparty (Apr 23, 2013)

Christian said:


> Pokemon syndrome... :lol: that's good...


It seems to happen A LOT here. Gotta have the newest, most coveted species, for apparently not much more than bragging rights. In the dart frog hobby we see this all the time, and once common species become very rare because people lose interest with what everyone else already has. There seems to be the notion that a once treasured animal is somehow much less valuable once everyone has it.


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## Crazy4mantis (Apr 24, 2013)

Your time is better spent elsewhere than trying to keep toxodera. unless of course your house has a pickable lock, no alarm system, and you are away for long periods of time. then by all means continue.  



Christian said:


> Pokemon syndrome... :lol: that's good...


toxodera, use die! It's super effective!


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## Jessie (Jun 17, 2017)

I find it funny that we have so many yet people seem to think we should keep all mantis. Why not just leave them alone. Cause idk after the first how many tries and they died. Why not put the msntis health over wanting to collect one?


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## KevinsWither (Jun 17, 2017)

Christian said:


> Naturalistic vivaria are used already in Europe for mantids (not for all, depending on species). Aside from legal issues, that is the reason why there are more difficult species in culture here. Deli-cups and the like are just not enough for some species.






frogparty said:


> It seems to happen A LOT here. Gotta have the newest, most coveted species, for apparently not much more than bragging rights. In the dart frog hobby we see this all the time, and once common species become very rare because people lose interest with what everyone else already has. There seems to be the notion that a once treasured animal is somehow much less valuable once everyone has it.






Jessie said:


> I find it funny that we have so many yet people seem to think we should keep all mantis. Why not just leave them alone. Cause idk after the first how many tries and they died. Why not put the msntis health over wanting to collect one?


To Christan: I use kind of a hybrid for naturalistic vivaria. Basically deli cups are used as a lot of mantis babies are really small. 

frogparty: That does happen a lot, sadly... 

Jessie: Well its kind of a bit of a "Moses" ark kind of thing, where we are unknowingly in the process saving up species. I will say that there are sadly sacrifices for the greater good if it applies to mantis keeping.


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## Jessie (Jun 17, 2017)

Shouldnt we be grateful for what we have not be greedy?


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