# Mantis and black widow



## Rick

Found the widow in the garage. Figured it would be a tasty snack for this always hungry girl:


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## rickyc666

That is a cool picture.


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## yen_saw

Rick, your female Lineola is like a monster for all the widows. Nice pic!


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## Rick

> Rick, your female Lineola is like a monster for all the widows. Nice pic!


I gotta tell ya yen not much can rival the appetite of a female full of eggs.


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## FieroRumor

Wow, a Black widow? Never saw one up close.

cool pic!


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## AFK

Wow, amazing! Question though:

If a spider bites a mantis and the mantis would die from the bite, how come a mantis doesn't die if it eats the spider and its venom???


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## Rick

> Wow, amazing! Question though:If a spider bites a mantis and the mantis would die from the bite, how come a mantis doesn't die if it eats the spider and its venom???


I'm not sure the mantis would die from the bite.


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## AFK

> Wow, amazing! Question though:If a spider bites a mantis and the mantis would die from the bite, how come a mantis doesn't die if it eats the spider and its venom???
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure the mantis would die from the bite.
Click to expand...

Obviously, the only sure way to know is to test this, but I have a strong feeling a mantis would die if a black widow were to bite and inject venom into the mantis. I mean, that's the black widow's means of killing its prey, isn't it? Unless you're saying that mantids may have some weird immunity to the toxin?


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## infinity

...and in terms of eating it virtually all toxins in the sting of a scorpion and the bite of a spider are enzymes and protein containing. If it ate those toxins, those proteins should just get broken down in its gut like muscle or anything else would. Only proteins i know of that would cause problems from eating would be the prions that cause BSE/ Scrapie (in humans and sheep)... not sure whether they exist in insects.


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## jonpat83

I was really curious about this as most spiders rely on insects as pray so logically speaking their venom should affect mantids if it is injected through a bite, however I feed spiders to my mantids all the time and never have a problem( dont know if the spiders got a bite in though!). I think venoms are quite a unique thing as I was saw something on T.V where a guy was talking about the venom of a Gaboon viper snake and how deadly it is and then he tasted it and was fine, his only comment being that it tasted like any other snake venom( finally something that doesn't taste like chicken hee hee), so I thought well if your stomach can cope with digestive fluid which is basically concentrated hydrochloric acid then venom probably wont do much harm. I guess mantids are similar in this respect as the venom glands and fangs always seem to get munched too.


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## AFK

oh wow, that's really interesting. so basically, venom is fine if it gets to your stomach before it gets to your bloodstream???


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## Rick

> oh wow, that's really interesting. so basically, venom is fine if it gets to your stomach before it gets to your bloodstream???


Maybe. Unless you have an open sore in your mouth in the case of us humans.


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## Johnald Chaffinch

i've never given any of my mantids a spider to eat , i've been cautious of them for the obvious reasons. am just wondering which UK species (and sizes) would be okay to give the small mantids i've got ?

(gongylode, miomantis, wahberghii, paradoxa)


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## Rick

I don't know the species you have but it should be fine. Mine ate a black widow with no problems so about anything should be fine. I was more worried about getting bit than I was about the mantis.


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## nympho

I doubt that the black widow is more dangerous to the mantis compared to other spiders as all spider venom is targeted at insects and is probably equally deadly to them. The black widow is only notorious because, by chance more than anything, its venom can be harmful to man. that spider looks small compared to the mantis anyway; feed a big spider (with big fangs) to a mantis and the results may be different, ie dead/paralyzed mantis.


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## Rick

When I said anything should be fine I mean't any small venomous spider. I'm not talking about huge spiders that are larger than the mantis. Common sense should prevail.


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## Johnald Chaffinch

i was just as concerned about spiders' ability to wrap things up in webbing.

i'll just make sure the spiders are small enough to be tackled


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## sean

In response to the discussion about the danger of venom being eaten. venom is protein. enzymes in the stomach are designed to break down proteins, therefore the venom is broken down. the only way it would be dangerous is if there was a wound somewhere along the digestive track and the venom got into the bloodstream and got to work. :shock:


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## Joe

wow thats amazing! i guess mantis armor is too tough for any insect to penetrate through. some of my mantids ate scorpions i caught. it tried to sting it for quite a while before the mantis got a grip of the wandering stinger. i was watching the whole time and the scorpion wasnt able to succesfully sting it. heres a pic of it. sorry its not that clear.






Joe


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## Rick

Now scorpions is interesting. I feed a bee to one yesterday and she started eating it stinger first.


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## Joe

wow i would think the stinger would get stuck in its mouth! some one should try feeding a mantis a tarantula lol now that would be a showdown

Joe


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## sean

yea it would. i think a mantis has a lot of evolutionary instinct in dealing with dangerous insects... and arachnids.... but i think its main weakness would be its eyes. for that reason i dnt feed my mantids wasps or spiders. i also saw a documentary where a hornet overpowered and killed an adult mantis. so dnt feed them giant hornets!


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## waretrop

Wow. I am so impressed.


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