# 2009 I. oratoria incubation info



## kamakiri (Mar 14, 2009)

First of all, thanks to joossa for a pair of _oratoria_ ooths!  

This is the info for the smaller of the two:

Ooth laid: 11/5/08

In cold storage between joossa and I from 12/1/08 through 1/19/09. While it was with me, it was in the garage in the evenings and in the fridge during the day. All to simulate a slightly cooler climate.

Incubation start 1/19/09 near lamp ~12". 80 to 90 deg F daytime. 68 to 71 deg. F at night.

Hatching start: 3/9/09

Day 1 hatch: 6

Day 2 hatch: 23

Day 3 hatch: 7

Day 4 hatch: 3

Day 5 hatch: 1

There is still about 1/4 of the ooth that has not hatched. The hatch progressed from one side, which was closer to the lamp. It happens to be the terminal end as it was laid.

And boy, these guys are tiny! :lol: I'm a little surprised they could take melanos on day 2 after hatching.


----------



## MantidLord (Mar 17, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> First of all, thanks to joossa for a pair of _oratoria_ ooths!  This is the info for the smaller of the two:
> 
> Ooth laid: 11/5/08
> 
> ...


You fed them melanogaster!? I didn't think they could take them. I feed my hydei up until L4.


----------



## kamakiri (Mar 18, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> You fed them melanogaster!? I didn't think they could take them. I feed my hydei up until L4.


 :huh: I'm confoosed? Just hatched, I think they're lighter than the hydei!?


----------



## MantidLord (Mar 18, 2009)

No, they'll take the larger hydei as well. It's better because the two hydei should satisfy them until L2. Though for some it may be harder to catch (survival of the fittest). And besides, they look like kids with giant cotton candy when they eat them.


----------



## Katnapper (Mar 18, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> You fed them melanogaster!? I didn't think they could take them. I feed my hydei up until L4.


MantidLord, I'm a bit confused too. If the nymphs are tiny, wouldn't feeding them _D. melanogaster _be more appropriate than the larger _D. hydei_? If giving _D. melanogaster _is in question because of the size, feeding _D. hydei _would be going in the opposite direction... absurd, no? :huh:


----------



## MantidLord (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm sorry, I know where I confused you guys. What I meant to say is that although the nymphs are so small, they are capable of taking the larger hydei, which for me, is more efficient because it means less fruitflies spent until they grow. I realize they'd take melanogaster, it's just why would "you" feed them a bunch of melanogaster when you can feed them maybe two hydei? And no, I didn't mean to question any of your methods or melanogaster in size. Sorry for the confusion.lol.


----------



## kamakiri (Mar 23, 2009)

No problem, MantidLord...I also generally believe in feeding the largest food that a nymph will take. I try to feed _hydei_ whenever I can. But I tried a few with the remaining L1s and as far as I can see there were no takers. But these were large ones from the start of a culture production. I could see them taking ones that are just a bit smaller.


----------



## MantidLord (Mar 23, 2009)

Nice pics. I allways forget how small they are until they hatch. At what instar do you plan on separating them? I have noticed that unless the L1s are on a branch, they can't control the ffs. I watched as one mantis was tossed left and right when he/she caught a ff on the ground. Had to let go because it couldn't get a grip. By "remaining" I guess you have L2s now, this is by far the most boring stage for me. :lol: They don't seem to be as active as the other instars &lt;_&lt; , maybe it's just me.  Keep us updated please.


----------



## kamakiri (Mar 26, 2009)

Yeah, almost all L2s as of last night...

Not sure when I'm going to separate 'em. I still have about 35...since I think there were some predation casualties during L2 molting, I was thinking somewhere closer to 20 so I don't end up with too many.


----------



## kamakiri (Apr 30, 2009)

My second ooth just started hatching yesterday!

Incubation time was much shorter for this one. It was pulled out of cold storage on 3/15 and started hatching yesterday with 5 nymphs.

There are 30 nymphs from the first ooth left and they just started molting to L5.


----------



## MantidLord (May 2, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> My second ooth just started hatching yesterday! Incubation time was much shorter for this one. It was pulled out of cold storage on 3/15 and started hatching yesterday with 5 nymphs.
> 
> There are 30 nymphs from the first ooth left and they just started molting to L5.


Man, none of mine have hatched yet, and they've been incubating for a month now. Starting to loose patience. :angry:


----------



## kamakiri (May 2, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Man, none of mine have hatched yet, and they've been incubating for a month now. Starting to loose patience. :angry:


Well my first one took two months, and the second was a month and a half under slightly higher temps. If you want them to hatch as soon as possible, I suggest trying to get them to 90-95 degrees F, and bringing them in if you have to. If you leave them outside at 70-80F, I think you might be waiting at least another month.

One more thing to note about the second ooth: I rotated it once in a while relative to the halogen lamp and unlike the first ooth which started hatching from the side nearest the lamp, this one seems a little random since there's hatching from both ends. So I think heat is the main factor in reducing hatching time.

The second one hatched 5 on the first day and 8 on the second. Of course, nothing yet today since I'm home


----------



## MantidLord (May 2, 2009)

Thanks Kamakiri. I'll definately take that into consideration. I guess I'm a little impatient because I had ooths that hatched a month after being layed in room temperature with no dispause. And these ooths are the ones that didn't hatch during that odd period. So I'll crank up the heat.


----------



## MantidLord (May 4, 2009)

Okay, so this evening when I was walking home from school, I saw a hatched ooth, and whent up to it so find nymphs scurring around! I was only able to capture three, but that's three more than what I had before.  I'm still waiting for my own ooths to hatch... &lt;_&lt;


----------



## MantidLord (May 7, 2009)

As of now, I have 30-40 nymphs running around. all wild caught from various ooths I caught hatching outside. None of them are "mine" but I'm not complaining.


----------



## kamakiri (May 8, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> As of now, I have 30-40 nymphs running around. all wild caught from various ooths I caught hatching outside. None of them are "mine" but I'm not complaining.


Yeah, that's not a bad way to get them! :lol: 

Surprisingly, my second and larger ooth has only hatched 13 nymphs. I wonder if keeping them in the fridge a couple of months longer reduced the hatch rate...


----------



## MantidLord (May 8, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Yeah, that's not a bad way to get them! :lol: Surprisingly, my second and larger ooth has only hatched 13 nymphs. I wonder if keeping them in the fridge a couple of months longer reduced the hatch rate...


Well what about putting them outside for a natural cold period? I mean, if they are naturally found in the area wouldn't putting the ooths in the fridge risk drying out some eggs?


----------



## kamakiri (May 9, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Well what about putting them outside for a natural cold period? I mean, if they are naturally found in the area wouldn't putting the ooths in the fridge risk drying out some eggs?


Yes, according to the directions I got from joossa. I probably didn't add water often enough.


----------



## MantidLord (May 9, 2009)

Oh, that probably could explain my ooths if they don't hatch. Hey, at what point did your nymphs start cannibalising? I know they start at L1, but after how many days do they start feasting on each other. So far they're eating aphids and small beetles, but they'll only smack at each other or crowd together. I'm just trying to anticipate the cannibalism so I can add more food and because I'm curious.


----------



## kamakiri (May 9, 2009)

Didn't see much cannibalism from my first batch until L4 kept very well fed. Now at L5, I'm down to about 20 in two containers. I'll probably separate soon.

The second batch I lost a few on day 2 because I didn't feed. 13 hatched and I have 9 now. Since they were fed, I haven't lost any.


----------



## MantidLord (May 10, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Didn't see much cannibalism from my first batch until L4 kept very well fed. Now at L5, I'm down to about 20 in two containers. I'll probably separate soon. The second batch I lost a few on day 2 because I didn't feed. 13 hatched and I have 9 now. Since they were fed, I haven't lost any.


Oh okay. I just experienced my first cannibalism for this batch this morning. There's food in there, but I guess because aphids aren't as active as fruit flies, they're not consumed as fast. But oh well, as long as my population does completely drop, I'm not too concerned.


----------



## MantidLord (May 18, 2009)

Got my first L2 today. Out of 13, all but one are L1. Then my mom said she saw a mantis while watering her flowers. I went outside and found it (another L2), and then while I was talking to her at the doorway, I saw a green one run down the cement. So I caught that one, and it's an L2. So things are looking pretty good.


----------



## Katnapper (May 19, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Got my first L2 today. Out of 13, all but one are L1. Then my mom said she saw a mantis while watering her flowers. I went outside and found it (another L2), and then while I was talking to her at the doorway, I saw a green one run down the cement. So I caught that one, and it's an L2. So things are looking pretty good.


Sounds like you've got it going on...


----------



## MantidLord (May 21, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Sounds like you've got it going on...


  Yep. I found five in my front yard, but I let them go so they can populate the garden that we just started. So it's nice that they were all ready on the flowers and stuff. I was going to release some of mine out there, but I guess there's no need. Had two L1 deaths, but another one molted to L2. So hopefully everything will stabilize.


----------



## Katnapper (May 21, 2009)

I've got 4 ooths of T. sinensis that hatched recently... that are getting kicked out pretty soon to my yard and local area.  I've got about 10 or so more ooths of the same, still to hatch... with several mother's still cranking them out, lol!  

Sprinkle some here... sprinkle some there... dump a batch here... throw some over there... hehehe!! :lol: 

I don't think I've ever seen an I. oratoria in the wild... I don't think they're native here. (but I could be wrong... haven't researched it!)


----------



## MantidLord (May 21, 2009)

Hahaha! They're not native to anywhere in the United States, but they only occur naturally in the Western states. They're typically a desert species, hence the reason why you don't have to worry about humidity problems. I'm *still* waiting for my M. religiosa to hatch, but I'm losing hope. If my ooths don't hatch by the end of this month, I'm just gonna put them in some bushes and let nature take care of them.  

But I'm not dumping as much nymphs in the wild because the hatch number is small, and I don't have alot anyway. &lt;_&lt; 

Oh, and congratulations on your T. sinensis success. Man, your garden must be a mantis palace!


----------



## kamakiri (May 27, 2009)

Update:

Amazingly, the second ooth started hatching again! At least one came out on 5/22 (others may have been eaten by the temporarily housed tenant), one more on the 24th and two more today. So that's 3 1/2 weeks of pause in the hatching...

I did check on the first ooth, and there is a single dead straggler hatched at an unknown date


----------



## joossa (Jul 15, 2009)

I told you in the care sheet to not be surprised if you found additional nymphs days and days after hatching!   

Oh yeah _D. melanogaster_ is definitely the way to go at L1. It's good to hear about your success. Do you have any updates?


----------



## kamakiri (Jul 15, 2009)

joossa said:


> I told you in the care sheet to not be surprised if you found additional nymphs days and days after hatching!   Oh yeah _D. melanogaster_ is definitely the way to go at L1. It's good to hear about your success. Do you have any updates?


Yeah, I had more hatching from the 2nd, larger ooth over a MONTH later! I'll have to post the exact dates when I get home. So some from that ooth are L4 or 5 and the last one is still L1! It may be closer to two months!  

For the first ooth, I only have what I think are subadults so far. Hope to have some adults soon.

One observation about this species is that they do seem very aggressive. All of mine need to be separated by L3 or 4. And I love how they chase down prey. These are one of my favorite so far.


----------



## kamakiri (Jul 19, 2009)

Finally remembered to check the hatching records...

First hatching: 4/29/09

Last to hatch: 6/17/09 (recorded) the actual last one might be later. But that's still almost two months.


----------



## kamakiri (Jul 21, 2009)

Finally have my first adult today. So that's just over 4 months. Surprised it has taken this long. It's a male and I have a couple of subadult females that should molt soon...


----------



## kamakiri (Jul 27, 2009)

Got my first female adult yesterday morning...wish me luck on breeding them!


----------



## Katnapper (Jul 27, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Got my first female adult yesterday morning...wish me luck on breeding them!


Great!!




Best of luck with the breeding!


----------



## kamakiri (Jul 28, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Great!!
> 
> 
> 
> Best of luck with the breeding!


Thanks, Rebecca! Now I just have to fatten her up!

I do love how _oratorias_ are generally *very* agressive, and chase down their prey. Shouldn't be that difficult to get her fat.


----------



## kamakiri (Aug 9, 2009)

Well, she didn't get very fat...but I chanced it anyway. She did only eat half of an adult cricket just prior, so I figured she couldn't be *that* hungry. After staring at her for a couple of hours from 1" away, he's finally mounted and connected.

I guess it wasn't that much of a risk also considering that I have several subadults and another adult male even if he only has three walking legs.


----------



## kamakiri (Aug 31, 2009)

Still no ooth from the first female. Had her re-mated last saturday 8/29 (with the male going out to Rick) Not sure why it is taking her so long considering that they are not large mantises.

One female mis-molted last week and I have a couple more subadult females along with 1 subadult and 3 adult males.


----------



## MantidLord (Aug 31, 2009)

Wow, as of today I have three adult males, one adult female, three juvenile males and four juvenile females. I hope your breeding program goes okay. I've never experienced sexual cannibalism with this species until *days* after mating if I left the male in with the female. Your female should be cool, all mine all ways laid after a week or two. best of luck


----------



## Ntsees (Sep 1, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Still no ooth from the first female. Had her re-mated last saturday 8/29 (with the male going out to Rick) Not sure why it is taking her so long considering that they are not large mantises.One female mis-molted last week and I have a couple more subadult females along with 1 subadult and 3 adult males.


How fat/gorged is the female currently? Although the time it takes to have an oothecae depends on the mantid itself, having her gorged helps out.


----------



## kamakiri (Sep 1, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Wow, as of today I have three adult males, one adult female, three juvenile males and four juvenile females. I hope your breeding program goes okay. I've never experienced sexual cannibalism with this species until *days* after mating if I left the male in with the female. Your female should be cool, all mine all ways laid after a week or two. best of luck


Good to know that the males aren't in much danger. That's what concerns me is that she was mated over three weeks prior and her appetite wasn't that big. I guess that's why I had her re-mated. Thanks for the response, these are my first oratorias...so I had no idea what was considered normal.



Ntsees said:


> How fat/gorged is the female currently? Although the time it takes to have an oothecae depends on the mantid itself, having her gorged helps out.


 Not very fat right now, but fatter than last week. The other week she was only taking partial crickets and not putting on weight. I guess it may be that it was too early for her first mating or it just did not 'take'. At least now it looks like she is taking full adult/subadult crickets.


----------



## Ntsees (Sep 1, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Not very fat right now, but fatter than last week. The other week she was only taking partial crickets and not putting on weight. I guess it may be that it was too early for her first mating or it just did not 'take'. At least now it looks like she is taking full adult/subadult crickets.


Oh, then it looks like it's going to take a while for you. Sometimes that happens to me too because it all depends on the female. It would be faster if your female was one of those who like to gorge everything. Nonetheless, I don't see anything wrong with your mantid and so you should expect an oothecae soon.


----------



## MantidLord (Sep 1, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Good to know that the males aren't in much danger. That's what concerns me is that she was mated over three weeks prior and her appetite wasn't that big. I guess that's why I had her re-mated. Thanks for the response, these are my first oratorias...so I had no idea what was considered normal.Not very fat right now, but fatter than last week. The other week she was only taking partial crickets and not putting on weight. I guess it may be that it was too early for her first mating or it just did not 'take'. At least now it looks like she is taking full adult/subadult crickets.


No problem. I think that your female is cool especially since she's starting to put on weight and devour food. At least its not the opposite :blink: I've mated females of this species three days after the final molt and they produced healthy nymphs. So, I don't think it was too early though something could have gone wrong. I'm about to start mating mine in a couple of days. We should compare our breeding success to try to find some normality with the female and her behavior with laying an ooth. Though keep in mind, once the female starts laying ooths of this species, they keep on going like every week. Not like Mantis religiosa.


----------



## kamakiri (Sep 2, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> No problem. I think that your female is cool especially since she's starting to put on weight and devour food. At least its not the opposite :blink: I've mated females of this species three days after the final molt and they produced healthy nymphs. So, I don't think it was too early though something could have gone wrong. I'm about to start mating mine in a couple of days. We should compare our breeding success to try to find some normality with the female and her behavior with laying an ooth. Though keep in mind, once the female starts laying ooths of this species, they keep on going like every week. Not like Mantis religiosa.


Well, as usual, I have to type that one of my females has not laid...in order for her to make an ooth. Not that pretty and a little crooked, but about 1/2" long on the upper side of the branch. She took another whole subadult cricket last night before laying. I didn't see any unusual behavior last night before or after she ate.

M. religiosa have about a 2 or 3 week interval between ooths IIRC,. Gotta check my records.

On a bad note, one more of the females mis-molted. Her 'arms' didn't come out of the exuviae. And she was hanging by her arms this morning


----------



## MantidLord (Sep 3, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Well, as usual, I have to type that one of my females has not laid...in order for her to make an ooth. Not that pretty and a little crooked, but about 1/2" long on the upper side of the branch. She took another whole subadult cricket last night before laying. I didn't see any unusual behavior last night before or after she ate.M. religiosa have about a 2 or 3 week interval between ooths IIRC,. Gotta check my records.
> 
> On a bad note, one more of the females mis-molted. Her 'arms' didn't come out of the exuviae. And she was hanging by her arms this morning


Wait, so it did lay finally? If so congratulations. And thanks for the time span because my female religiosa still hasn't layed an ooth yet. I'm sorry to hear about your mismolt. I've never had a mismolt on the finally one to adult hood.


----------



## kamakiri (Sep 3, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Wait, so it did lay finally? If so congratulations. And thanks for the time span because my female religiosa still hasn't layed an ooth yet. I'm sorry to hear about your mismolt. I've never had a mismolt on the finally one to adult hood.


Yes, she did lay and thanks. The first religiosa ooths were typically about 4 weeks from mating taking about 1 adult cricket per day.


----------



## MantidLord (Sep 3, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Yes, she did lay and thanks. The first religiosa ooths were typically about 4 weeks from mating taking about 1 adult cricket per day.


Wow. A whole month? That's something else. I feed her like two crickets a day but she's startin to run me dry so I'm gonna reduce it to one a day. I gotta get some crix today so she hasn't eaten for two days but she's still fat, so I definitely think she's pregnant. Either that or a slow metabolism. How are you gonna store your ooths for your oratoria? And like I said, don't be surprised if she lays another one next week. I love it, the only problem is that I have to constantly monitor their container to make sure there's not a lot of crix. I've lost a couple of ooths to hungry crickets before. :angry:


----------



## kamakiri (Sep 8, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Wow. A whole month? That's something else. I feed her like two crickets a day but she's startin to run me dry so I'm gonna reduce it to one a day. I gotta get some crix today so she hasn't eaten for two days but she's still fat, so I definitely think she's pregnant. Either that or a slow metabolism. How are you gonna store your ooths for your oratoria? And like I said, don't be surprised if she lays another one next week. I love it, the only problem is that I have to constantly monitor their container to make sure there's not a lot of crix. I've lost a couple of ooths to hungry crickets before. :angry:


I'm going to put the _oratoria_ ooths in the fridge in the ventilated plastic-lined paper cups that I'm selling (only because I bought a whole sleeve). I might force a faster hatch if I end up with too many ooths and try to push another generation over the winter.


----------



## MantidLord (Sep 10, 2009)

Yeah, I've had ooths that hatched the winter they were layed and even got a chance to see their mother (not that she was hospitable). So you can definitely do that with this species. Although it's surprising how much the adult females are dwarfed by the Europeans.


----------



## kamakiri (Sep 16, 2009)

Since her first ooth, she has made several little ooths. A couple of them have just a few eggs and really look more like a spike. Another looks like it might have about a dozen and is less than 1/4" long.

EDIT:

And forgot to mention that the first ooth got munched a little from a feeder cricket :angry: Punctured a few egg chamabers at the base and munched most of the zipper. I think only the few that were hit at the base will have died. Ironically, I didn't remove the ooth for concern over damaging it.


----------



## MantidLord (Sep 18, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Since her first ooth, she has made several little ooths. A couple of them have just a few eggs and really look more like a spike. Another looks like it might have about a dozen and is less than 1/4" long.EDIT:
> 
> And forgot to mention that the first ooth got munched a little from a feeder cricket :angry: Punctured a few egg chamabers at the base and munched most of the zipper. I think only the few that were hit at the base will have died. Ironically, I didn't remove the ooth for concern over damaging it.


I warned you. That happened to me so many times. Good luck in hatching that one. Another thing, I think it's interesting that it took so long for your female to lay. My female laid two days after mating, I'm not sure if its even fertile but I'm still keeping it nonetheless. Congrats on your ooths too. You probably know that it's not necessary to put them in the fridge but you can if you want too.


----------



## kamakiri (Sep 18, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> I warned you. That happened to me so many times. Good luck in hatching that one. Another thing, I think it's interesting that it took so long for your female to lay. My female laid two days after mating, I'm not sure if its even fertile but I'm still keeping it nonetheless. Congrats on your ooths too. You probably know that it's not necessary to put them in the fridge but you can if you want too.


I risked it with the crix since I thought she'd whack it right away. Luckily I was checking in occasionally and caught the evil doer.

Actually, I plan on doing the opposite...I'm going to force the ooths to hatch sooner than later. I plan to incubate via heat lamp. Perhaps after she makes one more 'full' ooth.


----------



## MantidLord (Sep 18, 2009)

Yeah, when I caught the crix in the act I had them executed by another mantis immediately. Except for I wasn't so lucky to catch it sooner rather than later.

Okay, that sounds like a good plan. It's definitely possible by the way. I placed my ooths outside and kept some inside at room temp attempting to just let nature take its course and they hatched the same winter they were laid. I don't know why this occurred but I doubt they would have survived the winter had I let them stay out there. Which is even more interesting because I thought this species needed 90 degree heat to hatch the ooth yet they hatched in lower temperatures.


----------



## joossa (Sep 18, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Which is even more interesting because I thought this species needed 90 degree heat to hatch the ooth yet they hatched in lower temperatures.


They can and will hatch at lower temperatures. However, warm temperatures will speed up the incubation period and yield more and healthier nymphs.


----------



## MantidLord (Sep 19, 2009)

Okay, thanks joossa, and long time no see. The nymphs that hatched were abundant but I had a feeling they were pretty weak. But I wasn't trying to incubate them though. I was simply trying to treat them as if they were in the wild.


----------



## MantidLord (Sep 26, 2009)

update: I know have 5 adult females, one adult male, one sub-adult male, and one male nymph. Two of the five females were successfully mated (laying three ooths total so far). Fingers crossed for a breeding success


----------



## Ntsees (Sep 26, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> update: I know have 5 adult females, one adult male, one sub-adult male, and one male nymph. Two of the five females were successfully mated (laying three ooths total so far). Fingers crossed for a breeding success


You're luckier than me. Compared to me, I had 8 females and only 1 male. I was planning to mate all the females at least once with the male but unfortunately the male dissappeared. I forgot to close the lid and so it flew away during the night. During that time, I only had one female mated and so it looks like the rest of the females will go unmated. The mated female so far has made 2 oothecaes and so hopefully they hatch. Well, it looks like I'm going to half to witness some parthogenesis if it does happen next year.


----------



## MantidLord (Sep 26, 2009)

Oh man, I'm sorry. That really sucks. Where did you keep the male in for him to fly away? Was he outside? And you might be lucky enough to find some more males before it's too late.


----------



## Ntsees (Sep 26, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Oh man, I'm sorry. That really sucks. Where did you keep the male in for him to fly away? Was he outside? And you might be lucky enough to find some more males before it's too late.


Yeah, I usually keep all my mantids outside. And yeah, I can catch males anytime. Actually, I have captured 4 males but I don't intend on mating them with my females. I have an experiment going on and I will not let _Iris oratoria _outside my mantid gene pool mate with my own _Iris oratoria_. If I did, I would be setting my experiment back a year or two. Of the four males, only one possibly has the trait that I'm looking for and so I'll probably mate him only (I'm hoping he is one of the ones that escaped from my own batch when they were still instars). He'll be my backup male if the two oothecaes don't hatch (the original experimental pair).


----------



## kamakiri (Sep 26, 2009)

Hey guys, I have a few males and only two normal females... So feel free to PM me if you need one.


----------



## MantidLord (Sep 26, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> Yeah, I usually keep all my mantids outside. And yeah, I can catch males anytime. Actually, I have captured 4 males but I don't intend on mating them with my females. I have an experiment going on and I will not let _Iris oratoria _outside my mantid gene pool mate with my own _Iris oratoria_. If I did, I would be setting my experiment back a year or two. Of the four males, only one possibly has the trait that I'm looking for and so I'll probably mate him only (I'm hoping he is one of the ones that escaped from my own batch when they were still instars). He'll be my backup male if the two oothecaes don't hatch (the original experimental pair).


So what are you testing? Inbreeding? And mind telling what trait you're looking for?


----------



## Ntsees (Sep 27, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> So what are you testing? Inbreeding? And mind telling what trait you're looking for?


I'm trying to produce an oratoria that has a physical trait that is rarely seen (I think it's rarely seen unless someone can show me a population of it) in _Iris oratoria_. I'm trying to breed an _Iris oratoria _that has a black mark/spot under it's forelegs like how a Mantis religiosa has the eye under it's forelegs. The only person that has ever encountered that physical trait on an _Iris oratoria _was Joossa (member on the forum).

In regards to imbreeding, my mantids are WAY WAY inbred, but they still seem to be doing fine.

Another pointless trait I'm trying to breed is for the females of the oratoria to have long wings. And what I mean is not a short abdomen where it makes it look like the wings are long. Yeah, I know it's crazy because no oratoria females have long wings. Still I hope to own or see one someday. I'll be like hitting the Jackpot because it's almost impossible.


----------



## MantidLord (Sep 27, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> I'm trying to produce an oratoria that has a physical trait that is rarely seen (I think it's rarely seen unless someone can show me a population of it) in _Iris oratoria_. I'm trying to breed an _Iris oratoria _that has a black mark/spot under it's forelegs like how a Mantis religiosa has the eye under it's forelegs. The only person that has ever encountered that physical trait on an _Iris oratoria _was Joossa (member on the forum).In regards to imbreeding, my mantids are WAY WAY inbred, but they still seem to be doing fine.


Interesting. So your crossbreeding attempt to gain that phenotype failed so youre trying to selectively breed it into your population. And I had a male who had the insides of his forearm black. Not a black spot, but just all black on the inside. I did mate him, but I didn't really think anything of it. Good luck.


----------

