# Rant about our behavior



## Termite48 (Apr 12, 2011)

Members: I have been here for my second go for just a few weeks. I have enjoyed most all with whom I have conversed, had dealings, and sent and received emails. I have a couple of observations which pertain to all who are involved in Mantids and other insects as as either a hobby, or side-line, or a small business venture. I ask you all in a humble as I can way to please use the golden rule when corresponding by email, posting on this site, or PM-ing. Some of us take communication with others more seriously than do others. That is just the way that it is. My request is that if the corrspondence involves the exchange of money or potentially so, please use the rule of "time is of the essence". You may be sitting on someone's funds and not letting that person know what is going on with the goods that are being sold. Another scenario that is common is when you have posted some insects for sale and you get some inquiries to promote some business, please treat these in order of receiving when there are two or more people requesting the item(s). Also treat the inquiry as if there is no tomorrow. Too many times some of you are treating things with the "manana" attitude, i.e., there is always tomorrow. This could spoil a deal for someone, and quite often I might guess. The last matter is that of mailings. Please let us use a safe and professional approach in that of utilizing "delivery confirmation" as part of your fees and process. It is usually $.70 extra to use the "tracking" option with Priority Mailings and $.80 cents for 1st Class. This enables two things: 1) proof that you mailed something at a certain date and time and to a certain zip code. 2) enables the recipient to track somewhat the progess of the package in the mail. On eBay for example is something is mailed and the buyer claims that he did not receive the item, ebay will force the seller to refund the money paid for the item, to the buyer. This is averted if the "proof of mailing" shows the item was, in fact mailed to a certain zip code on a certain day and at a specific time. That is all that I have to say at this time. I hope this helps those who have taken these things in a slightly haphazzard way. I am sure that most of you operate in the professional way that is expected of us. As Vance stated, a sort of "bill of lading" might be a nice addition to be placed in the package, especially if there could be any ambiguities.


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## sufistic (Apr 12, 2011)

You're right Rich. My apologies if I came up short, as I'm on the other side of the world!


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## Termite48 (Apr 13, 2011)

Shaik: No, you are not a problem. You did as you said and all is well. It is the local yokals here that think that because they might know a lot about mantids, they can just take a payment of some dollar amount (sometimes quite a sum) and then disappear for days and the buyer does not hear a thing. Then a package arrives and there is nobody home to receive it and there are problems. That is what I was writing about.


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## GreenOasis (Apr 13, 2011)

I use Click N Ship...postage paid online thru USPS...tracking information is provided at no extra cost and in fact, doing it online is usually cheaper than going to the PO. Not to mention, you don't have to wait in line!

It's super-easy to use...I highly recommend it to people. Just enter shipping information, your payment information &amp; print your label!


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## yen_saw (Apr 13, 2011)

Rich, completely understand your concern. I sometimes lose track with all the orders, eventhough i tried to keep up with it. Sometimes a kind reminder to the seller is all you need. I certainly hope i haven't been ignorant to you


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 13, 2011)

Hi, Rich:

Since yours is after all a rant, I was happy to overlook the possible ethnic slur implicit in yr reference to the "manana philosophy", but now I see that you have escalated to a reference to some of our members as "local yokels" and fear that as an older man, way up there in the sixties, I believe, you may do yourself a harm, so I shall be happy to help you in my modest way, while you sip some pleasant, soothing drink.

I see that you exhort members to "professionalism". Carey answered with an excellent suggestion for professionals, but you should know that many, if not most of our members are very much amateurs, which is why they offer surplus ooths and mantids at such low prices and are generally prone to give much more help and advice than one might expect from a professional. A Florida teen named Chase used to trade with me and would literally run home after school, grab a package made up the night before and then run to the P.O. before it closed. He, certainly, was not a professional but a pleasure to do business with, nonetheless.

You advocate the use of "mailing confirmation". I am not familiar with any such service by USPS, though that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, but you might advise instead the use of Signature and Arrival confirmation and tell. folks that before proceeding to the mailing window, they need to fill out form PS 152 or PS153.

Most importantly, however, I have two suggestions to make life more peaceful for you. If you don't get satisfaction in yr dealings with a member, simply stop using him, and if you have an urge to vent your unhappiness and advice, do it to him, not me.

Secondly, to avoid having livestock left at your doorstep, do what I do and rent a P.O. box so that any package will await your convenience in air conditioned comfort.

And now I hope that you are already feeling better.


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## patrickfraser (Apr 13, 2011)

"Most importantly, however, I have two suggestions to make life more peaceful for you. If you don't get satisfaction in yr dealings with a member, simply stop using him, and if you have an urge to vent your unhappiness and advice, do it to him, not me."

++++++1

Oh my! Quite demanding.


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## Termite48 (Apr 13, 2011)

Those that do what is right and practice diligence don't often even read a "rant" such as mine, and especially they do not oppose such venting for the good of the rest. Yen Saw is of one of those that does not have to worry about malpractices. Those who mail

quite a lot are doing what is right, or others won't use him. Sometimes one may find that an indiidual is so good in almost everything he/she does, but has one or two traits or practices which make him a bit of a "trial" to use or patronize, but one does it because of the overall benefit. That is about which I write. If there are benfits to going to a doctor, but he/she has terrible breath, perhaps someone will be so kind to point it out. Are you that person? we all tend to offend one or two. That is not about what I write.


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## warpdrive (Apr 13, 2011)

it goes both ways...

as someone who ships a lot, regardless of tracking, I like to hear from the buyer that they got the package and if they live or not.

sometimes you never hear from the buyer again once the package is in the mail. sellers do care and hope all goes well. we would love to hear from you and how everything went.

when I get anything in that is alive, I always send the seller a PM/email to let them know that I got it and how they are doing.

Harry


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## lancaster1313 (Apr 14, 2011)

warpdrive said:


> it goes both ways...
> 
> as someone who ships a lot, regardless of tracking, I like to hear from the buyer that they got the package and if they live or not.
> 
> ...


+1 to that.

I have only sent out live creatures a couple of times, but I would always want to know when they are recieved and in what condition. The couple of packages that I have recieved had "delivery confirmation" added to the "priority mail" service, probably for tracking reasons. On the first package that I sent out, I did not opt for the "delivery confirmation" or "priority mail", it was "first class" and was lost. On the second, I opted for both services, and was successfully delivered.


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## Termite48 (Apr 15, 2011)

I agree with those of you who have added to the list of things to do: That recipients of mailing owe it to the sender, if not a large company, the conditions of the goods upon arrival. That all is well. This is comforting to know, it builds rapport and cammaraderie among us as members of the Mantid Forum.


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 15, 2011)

Perhaps this is a good time to remind members that while sending an Email on receipt of anything, whether mantids or other supplies, is nice, posting that you have received something in one of the two feedback forums also serves the purpose of letting other members know something about your opinion of the vendor.


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## blackburnexotics (Apr 19, 2011)

I too would like to make a comment about professional conduct in regards to orders and shipping.

Several times I have received a packages from members with no receipt! _I don't even mind people that at least write on the containers what the critters are._ I'm talking about getting a package in the mail with a plastic container inside, no label, no receipt, no indication at all as to what it is. Hate to break this to everyone, but the package you sent me may NOT be the only thing I order this week.

And since I am pitching a hissy fit... Could everyone at least TRY to give the full scientific name of the critters or even better, spell it correctly. Members are getting lazy and only mention the genus without specifying which species they are talking about.

Here is a cheat sheet that should whip members into shape:

Acanthops falcata - Venezuelan Dead Leaf mantis

Acanthops fuscifolia - Tropical Dead Leaf

Acanthops tuberculata - Tropical Dead Leaf

Acromantis sp. - Boxer mantis

Ameles decolor

Ameles spallanzania

Alalomantis muta - Cameroon mantis

Asiadodis squilla - Asian shield mantis

Blepharopsis mendica - Thistle mantis

Brunneria subaptera - Stick mantis

Brunneria borealis - Stick mantis

Camelomantis sondaica

Ceratocrania macra

Ceratomantis saussurii

Choeradodis rhombicollis - Tropical shield mantis

Choeradodis stalii - Tropical shield mantis

Cilnia humeralis

Creobroter meleagris - Flower mantis

Creobroter gemmatus - Indian flower mantis

Creobroter pictipennis - Indian flower mantis

Creobroter elongata - Flower mantis

Deroplatys angustata - Dead Leaf mantis

Deroplatys desiccata - Dead Leaf mantis

Deroplatys lobata - Dead Leaf mantis

Deroplatys truncata - Dead Leaf mantis

Empusa fasciata

Empusa pennata

Eremiaphila brunneri - Common desert mantis

Eremiaphila zetterstedti

Euchomenella heteroptera - Twig mantis

Gongylus gongylodes - Indian rose/Violin mantis

Gonatista grisea - Grizzled mantis

Heterochaeta strachani

Hierodula membranacea - Giant Asian mantis

Hierodula grandis - Giant Indian mantis

Hierodula patellifera - Indo-Pacific mantis

Hierodula parviceps - Philippine mantis

Holaptilon pusillulum - Jumpy mantis

Hoplocorypha sp.

Humbertiella ceylonica

Hymenopus coronatus - Orchid mantis

Idolomantis diabolica - Devil's Flower mantis

Idolomorpha madagascariensis

Ischnomantis gigas

Iris oratoria - Mediterranean mantis

Liturgusa lichenalis - Lichen mantis

Macromantis hyalina

Mantis religiosa - European mantis

Miomantis caffra - South African mantis

Miomantis paykullii - Egyptian mantis

Miomantis abyssinica - Egyptian mantis

Odontomantis sp. - Ant mantis

Oligonicella scudderi - Scudder's mantis

Orthodera novaezealandiae - New Zealand mantis

Otomantis sp. - Boxer mantis

Oxyopsis gracilis - Peruvian mantis

Oxyopsis peruviana - Peruvian mantis

Oxyothespis dumonti

Paramantis prasina

Parasphendale agrionina - Bud-winged mantis

Parasphendale affinis - African banded mantis

Paratoxodera cornicollis - Giant Malaysian stick mantis

Phyllocrania paradoxa - Ghost mantis

Phyllovates chlorophaea

Plistospilota guineensis

Polyspilota aeruginosa

Popa spurca - twig mantis

Pseudocreobotra ocellata - Spiny flower mantis

Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii - Spiny flower mantis

Pseudovates arizonae - Arizona unicorn mantis

Rhombodera basalis - Giant Malaysian shield mantis

Rhombodera extensicollis - Giant shield mantis

Rhombodera megaera - Giant shield mantis

Rivetina baetica - Ground mantis

Stagmatoptera biocellata

Stagmomantis californica- California mantis

Sphodromantis balachowskyi

Stagmomantis Carolina - Carolina mantis

Stagmomantis limbata - Bordered mantis

Stagmomantis floridensis - Florida mantis

Sibylla pretiosa

Tamolanica tamolana

Tarachodes afzelii

Tarachodula pantherina

Theopropus elegans - Elegant mantis

Tisma freyi

Taumantis sigiana - Lime-green mantis

Tenodera australasiae

Tenodera angustipennis - Narrow-winged mantis

Tenodera aridifolia sinensis - Chinese mantis

Toxodera denticulata - Giant Malaysian stick mantis

Yersiniops sophronicum - Yersin's ground mantis

Yersiniops solitarium - Horned ground mantis

Zoolea lobipes


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 19, 2011)

O.K. I've memorized all of these, got any more? :lol: 

Actually, I'm afraid that yours is a counsel of perfection. I am a scholar and should be expected to know such things, but this is not a scholarly forum, and most members are just not going to learn binomials that mean nothing to them and for whose spelling they have no context. I noticed that even your admirable list had one minor nomenclatural error and a least one spelling error. Still, I would heartily encourage anyone who wants to study the hobby seriously to learn something about mantis systematics.


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## Peter Clausen (Apr 21, 2011)

I'll be the first to state that I do not write the names of items on containers that I ship to customers. A customer should know what they are ordering and the terms of the sale should be in an email, a PM or a paypal invoice, etc. In the event I ship more than one species and the contents are not obvious in terms of size or other distinguishing factors, I may label them, but probably not to the level of species when the genus is more than sufficient to help a customer who has spent their hard earned dollars on a purchase they've likely considered carefully. Truth be known, I have a lot of bugs coming in and out of here and I too sometimes forget what I'm opening up and have to look back to an email to figure out what species it is. I received about 60 arthropods in the mail today, in fact. But still, the information is at my fingertips, if I don't happen to recall it. Also, if I were to forget or misplace the information on what I've ordered, surely I could take responsibility for my laziness or disorderliness and contact my supplier.

Of course, communication is best done when equal on both sides. What I observe here is that one side is quite picky and regularly having issues finding satisfaction. Perhaps it would be less frustrating to come down to our level than ask us to rise to yours.

Ah, and if the postmaster general ever wants to know what the hundred little mantises pouring out of my shipment that broke open in his warehouse is, as he knocks on my door at 2AM with a police escort...

...the answer is "Tenodera aridifolia sinensis - Chinese mantis" (though my understanding is that the designation 'aridifolia' is wrong)...AKA the ONLY mantis deregulated from shipping all over the country.  

I truly feel it is not advisable to label the contents for this one reason alone. People raise commotions all the time about ways the hobby can be hurt by various actions, but I've known a few people in the last year that got knocks on their doors at 2 in the morning by a half-sleeping, half-pissed, postmaster general.

AND you want a _receipt_!??? Is pencil okay?

I'm having a little fun here, BBE, but I just don't agree with the spirit of your suggestion, the practicality, or the wisdom should a package be broken open (I see it happen much too often where I work at UPS, believe me).

I'm not even going to touch Rich S' original post in this fun thread. However, I'm pretty certain I could communicate and transact business with you both, to our mutual satisfactions.

Like Phil said best "use the feedback forums". If you don't get a receipt or there is a misspelling, let other customers know about it, but I'll take a live mantis over a correctly-labeled dead one, any day!

Keep the rants coming! Are we having fun yet?


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## sporeworld (Apr 21, 2011)

Peter Clausen said:


> Keep the rants coming! Are we having fun yet?


Ha, ha! Such fun! I imagined a roll of "Chinese Mantis - OK for Shipping" stickers - one slapped on every shipment, regardless of species!

BTW, I really do EVENTUALLY want to use all the correct names and spelling, but since I can't even PRONOUNCE Blepha.. Blempharo... Blapharsisiszits... whatever - "Thistle Mantis"... I might be a while... 

(BTW, "Jumpy Mantis"!?! Seriously? That's the LEAST discriptive common name I've ever heard! Who gets to make these up? I wanna name one "Eatie Mantis"?)


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## Termite48 (Apr 22, 2011)

While this rant thread is still alive and active, I will add one more thing. Perhaps being a newbie to the mantis hobbie and an old timer in the way of age and experience in commerce and science, I have one more pet peeve. I have just run into this issue in a recent transaction. When one posts that he has this species and that instar of such sepcies, it better be so. It is not fair to have purchased a half-dozen or so of a popular and pricey species (not talking about any legal to release in the US species) of a particular L- #, for example L-4. This can mean that the mantid has reached L-4 and on the next molt would be L-5 and perhaps this is even done in the mail. It is easy to see upon arrival that the mantids inside are either of that particular stage or not. One notices especially one has the species in various stages. So the received L-4 is the same size as one of your own (from hatching an ooth at home)L-2s. This is not a good thing. And to further compound the matter, the breeder then answers the email inquiry by outright denial. This is not good for the buyer, nor for the forum. If this breeder continues to deny this, then am I to publish this in the breeder feedback. I hate to do this, and would not want to harm the reputation of a member, but when this might happen again to another unsuspecting buyer, it causes me anxiety as to my duty. Please let us be careful to document the age, size and instar of a nymph if this not being done, could lead to an injustice.


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 22, 2011)

So is all this bad luck, abuse, and irritation what I have to look forward to as I start getting old? Ouch! I think I'll follow the example of the villagers of Grantchester in Rupert Brook's famous poem:

They love the Good; they worship Truth;

They laugh uproariously in youth,

And when they get to feeling old,

They up and shoot themselves, I'm told.

Good idea!


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## Termite48 (Apr 22, 2011)

Phil: I always look forward to your comments. Sometimes they hit home, and sometimes, I am afraid as with mine, they miss the mark a whole bunch.


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 23, 2011)

You're right, Rich, I was off the mark, but every time you mention your advancing years, I have this stupid urge to giggle. Let me redress my gaffe by honoring your request and telling you where your duty lies. What you have to ask yourself is this: is the forum helped more by your reporting a bad deal in the breeders' feedback, which is designed for that,or by giving us all advice on how to follow the Golden Rule, ready or not? If you go for the first option, as i think you will, you win.

Let me add a caveat, however. If, as in the case you posted on #17, you assert on the forum that the dealer is a liar without any more evidence than your comparison between the size of his/her nymphs and yours, you are not only likely to cause some very bad feeling but risk the possibility of a libel suit.

Most of us who have been doing this for a while would just let it go by and not buy from him/her again. "Live and let live" is not only a good moral principal, but for us arteriosclerotic old farts, it's good for the blood pressure, too.


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## sporeworld (Apr 23, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> If, as in the case you posted on #17,


Learn something new everyday. I did NOT realize the posts were numbered. Lost all track of what you were talking about and just raced to find the #'s.


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## Termite48 (Apr 26, 2011)

Phil, I know you mean well and I always enjoy your postings. This is for everyone reading this posting. I never call anyone a liar. When asking for the instar, I assume one keeps track of the molts. In the absence of such a log, them comparing the size with others that are documented, seems to me to be a good start, and knowing that there can be slow growth in any species, it is the times it molted that is imoprtant. Feeding and temperature can take care of some of the issues. The point is that when one posts that he has L-4s for sale and they arrive looking like my L-2s, a red flag does fly. That does not mean that the seller is a liar. When this matter cannot be worked out between seller and buyer, there is a point where it needs to be mentioned in the Feedback section. Starting a new thread about issues that are present in the forum does the greater good in my opinion and it is not meant to be a continued discussion about anyone in particular, but a look at all our practices. Being an old fart, and having had to adhere to many very stringent rules of practicing my profession in real estate and in real estate development, there is a gap between what I am used to and what is being done here on the forum as far as commerce ethics and practices are concerned.


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