# So...I have an opportunity



## Colorcham427 (Dec 24, 2009)

Well, I am not on here as much as I'd like to be. I am very active on the chameleonforums though, I am more into chameleons.

I got into this hobby because of the Idolomantis Diabolica, this mantid just appeared to be so sexy, I wanted one, no two? no! dozens! lol...

As time went by, I realized that this species is as hard to get as the Parons chameleons (chameleon world's very hard to find and breed species)

Now, I have a friend out in Cali who knows a lady in Germany, who sent me a few pictures. One with a date on it.

She has one small ooth and one large ooth. Small ooth is 120.00 and large oother is 240.00. Or both for 350.00. This is in Euros, so this means I'm spending what? 500 bucks?!

The guy who introduced me to her has been helping him out with other species of insects and this guy is a great guy and very serious when it comes to this because he realizes how much doe is on the line for this.

The lady, cannot guarantee hatching, who can blame her?

But, what I'm asking is, shipping ooths through 25 degree weather? What can happen? Would a couple heat packs crammed in a small very closed box keep the ooth safe?

Can Idolomantis Diabolica ooths tolerate such cold temps for 4-8 days?

On here, who has experience with Idolomantis Diabolica ooths? I know Christian does!  maybe you can chime in with any further info.

Lets say I do get the ooths, and they do hatch... I want all of you to know that I am dedicated to work with this species. I've spoken to Yen and he told me that when he had the I. Dia. that there wasn't nearly as much info. on them on the internet as there is now. I think that is a good thing, knowing what I am getting into and having info. handy for notes etc.

I love looking at this species because of the colors, and size! The size of the Mantis is what I like most. A lot of the mantids are small, which I have found when I got into this world of mantids. I'm looking for the big I. Dia. who have that cool look to them.

I've been doing research and asking lots of questions, just wanted to inform any of the people on here who are interested in getting this species out here in the U.S.

The lady I have been talking to said she has bred this particular tribe for some years now. Apparently, WC I. Dia. are harder to get to breed??? Wonder why that is...

Does this species get stressed out very easily???

I would like as much input as possible. This is the reason why I entered this hobby. I love the Violins, don;t get me wrong I love a lot more, but the I. Dia. is what brought me here, and getting them here is now my goal.

For the New Year's I am determined to get this started! wish me luck and happy holidays.

P.S. For those of you who are interested in chameleons, I finally got a nice trio of N. Faly!!! Finally, a breeding group!!!!!! lol

~ Brian


----------



## ZoeRipper (Dec 24, 2009)

500 bucks? heck no bro.

I wouldn't risk it.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Dec 24, 2009)

Oh dear. In September of last year, a guy with the nickname Salomonis joined the forum and you can guess what mantis he planned on introducing into the U.S. hobby. He had about as much experience with tropical mantids as you, and he left us at the end of December, never to be seen again. Please, Brian, do not join the list of departed members who suffered from a surfeit of ambition and a paucity of experience, who leave defeated, having accomplished nothing. Learn the basics from experience first!

But you won't listen to that, or to Zoe's good advice will you? So:

You got encouragement from Yen? He is one of the most kindly and encouraging people I know in this hobby. Unfortunately, he was probably an advanced mantis keeper on the day that he started and is now one of the most experienced and respected mantis breeders in the world. His idea of "difficult" and yours might not be the same.

If I understand you correctly, you have no idea of the conditions under which mantis ooths are smuggled from Germany to the US. On the bright side, for most of the time, your ooths are in a plane or building at "people comfortable" temperatures. You can cut down the ooth's exposure to the cold during its final delivery by renting a P.O. box. On the down side, do you know anyone who recieved a package from Germany in four days?!

Yes, as of closing, today,you were looking at just over $500, but as you may know, we are, as of today, back to the soggy dollar (if you trade abroad, I assume that you know something about the money market) and the dollar amount of your purchase can only increase over time.

Don't wait for Christian to come on line. PM him, Kruszakus and Tier and ask them if they know this lady and if they would ship an ooth to the US at this time of year. Also, tell them about yr mantis keeping experience and ask for their opinion of your plan. These are experienced, decent guys, who will give you sound advice. Listen to them!

Well, that's my best shot. Zoe got it right in much less space!


----------



## Peter Clausen (Dec 24, 2009)

If you're going to spend $500 on live product, upgrade to overnight shipping on a 12 oz. box with a heat pack. It won't be cheap, but at least you can rule out one factor when they don't hatch.

Personally, I'd rather wait years for reasonable prices and enjoy the even rarer Pleocoma beetles I found in my backyard for free, in the meantime. So many other mantis species to appreciate, but if you have the money and the passion...go for it!?? If they hatch you can easily make the money back by selling half of them. If not, you were still livin' the dream!


----------



## hibiscusmile (Dec 24, 2009)

I gotta add my two cents, (prices are up) the ooth more than likely with a heat pack willl never make it thru c u s t o m s. (dont wanna alert anyone). I cannot even get mine out of Ohio without putting a sign on it that there is a heat or cold pack inside, with hightened securi ty the post office sends them back and even calls my post office to see if they know me.... &lt;_&lt;


----------



## Rick (Dec 24, 2009)

If you got the money and the means then go for it. I would personally keep some other mantids first.


----------



## revmdn (Dec 24, 2009)

At the very least I'd wait for late spring or summer. Just safer, I think.


----------



## Kruszakus (Dec 24, 2009)

I would not do it. Seriously, do not risk buying Idolomantis ooths. I had a chance to incubate a bunch ooths, and only some of them hatched. There's no guarantee that those will come through for you.


----------



## Katnapper (Dec 24, 2009)

I would at least get some experience under your belt raising other, easier mantis species before attempting _I. diabolica_. In my opinion, starting off with this species is just likely to give you a very expensive heartache.


----------



## MantidLord (Dec 24, 2009)

Don't get it. Not to be a downer but it's a no win situation. You'd be wasting money on ooths that may not hatch or may not even make it to you. And *if* they do hatch, the responsibility, time, effort, etc., that it takes to raise this species... a beginner will have no chance whatsoever. You'd be wasting your money and time and precious I. diobolica ooths. And yes, I'm repeating what everyone else said, but the more times you hear the truth, the better.


----------



## Colorcham427 (Dec 24, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Don't get it. Not to be a downer but it's a no win situation. You'd be wasting money on ooths that may not hatch or may not even make it to you. And *if* they do hatch, the responsibility, time, effort, etc., that it takes to raise this species... a beginner will have no chance whatsoever. You'd be wasting your money and time and precious I. diobolica ooths. And yes, I'm repeating what everyone else said, but the more times you hear the truth, the better.


worrrrrd...lol...thanks all. i have decided to wait until it gets much warmer out. I am thinking mid April or so...

Can I ask all fo you, in your experience... What makes Mantids a challenge to keep? Is it the consistent looking after of them? Making sure everything is clean? Right humidity, good stable temperature that doesn't flucuate.

Always having a supply of well gut loaded flies?

I just don't understand what is hard about Mantids... Do any of these animals need UVB rays? Certain hours of light per day, in specifics, winter time, less light? Cooler temps? Mimic their environment?

Please educate me. I have been searching and searching on here, and am becoming more and more fascinated with this world of Mantids.

I think this thread I started attracted a lot of the experienced keepers, please continue adding 2 pennies!  lol

thank you all for your input, no matter if its negative or positive, if it's ur own opinion, i respect it. afterall, you all have been in shoes that have walked a whole lot further than i have!

~ Brian


----------



## PhilinYuma (Dec 24, 2009)

How cool that the forum could offer real help and that you could take it! Rebecca's commentt about hot packs trumps just about any other objection. Ooths packed by an experoienced shipper, stand a very good chance of getting by US Customs but a hot pack serves no purpose by the time it reaches a POE than to shout "Live Contents!"

All of your questions are to the point. I will suggest two things:

Read as many old topics on this forum, with particular attn to sections on breeding, feeding nursing and housing of mantids.

Buy a copy of _Praying Mantids: Keeping Aliens_, on sale from Elytra and Antenna or Bugs in Cyberspace (you will see their adverts on the top of the page if you use the green, Euphoria skin). This is easily the best introduction to mantis husbandry.

There is a host of excellent mantis breeders on this forum, but I wouls suggest that you contact some of the generalist breeders who keep a wide variety of mantids on stock, such as Hibiscusmile (Rebecca), Kattnapper (another Rebecca) Ismart (Paul) And Yen Saw to whom you have already spoken. Tell them your plan and ask for their advice in buying and raising mantids of varying difficulty in preparation for the Great Adventure.

As i mentioned, PM some of the experienced European breeders on this forum to enquire about the woman from whom you intend to purchase the ooths.

When you have decided on what you want, but before you buy, check with Hibiscusmile at Mantis Place about what supplies you need.

I assume that as a herp raiser, you are on top of raising ffs, etc . That is a big help in itself. Onre thing is sure. $500 will buy you a substantial number of mantids and supplies in the US!

As before. Good, luck, and keep us informed of yr progress.

P.S. Personally, though I think that you have what it takes to be a good mantis breeder, I think that yr _Idolomantis_ plan is crazed; you should fit in nicely with a lot of the members here!


----------



## Colorcham427 (Dec 24, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> How cool that the forum could offer real help and that you could take it! Rebecca's commentt about hot packs trumps just about any other objection. Ooths packed by an experoienced shipper, stand a very good chance of getting by US Customs but a hot pack serves no purpose by the time it reaches a POE than to shout "Live Contents!"All of your questions are to the point. I will suggest two things:
> 
> Read as many old topics on this forum, with particular attn to sections on breeding, feeding nursing and housing of mantids.
> 
> ...


LOL the last line made me laugh! this is quite the addiction next to chameleon keeping!

I'm planning on talking to as many people as possible. Thanks for the words dude


----------



## chun (Dec 24, 2009)

what makes keeping mantis, and in particularly the infamous Idolomantis hard is the fact that they will be fine and dandy one day and the next, it'll be on the floor dying despite everything being 'perfect'. As all of us know, mantids often die with no tell-tale signs that something is not right. Keeping and breeding mantids is a skill acquired through a process of trial and error, the more experience you gain, the more you can reduce these so called 'random deaths'. Once you know what you're doing (learnt through trial and error) you can usually pick up tell tale signs such as when a moult is due, whether it's too dry, too cold etc. The problem with Idolomantis is, at those prices, the learning process ain't going to be cheap.

To be honest, i do not spend THAT much time with my mantids, i dont clean them THAT often. i dont use any sophisticated equipments, simply use 60W desk lamps (to keep the temperature) on a timer and hand spray them every night after lights out but at the end of the day, i know what i am doing, and you gain that from experience. I'm not being patronising or doubting your ability to keep Idolomantis or mantids, but being an excellent chameleon breeder does not automatically make you an excellent mantis breeder (although it can help).

my 2 pennies worth


----------



## Colorcham427 (Dec 25, 2009)

chun said:


> what makes keeping mantis, and in particularly the infamous Idolomantis hard is the fact that they will be fine and dandy one day and the next, it'll be on the floor dying despite everything being 'perfect'. As all of us know, mantids often die with no tell-tale signs that something is not right. Keeping and breeding mantids is a skill acquired through a process of trial and error, the more experience you gain, the more you can reduce these so called 'random deaths'. Once you know what you're doing (learnt through trial and error) you can usually pick up tell tale signs such as when a moult is due, whether it's too dry, too cold etc. The problem with Idolomantis is, at those prices, the learning process ain't going to be cheap. To be honest, i do not spend THAT much time with my mantids, i dont clean them THAT often. i dont use any sophisticated equipments, simply use 60W desk lamps (to keep the temperature) on a timer and hand spray them every night after lights out but at the end of the day, i know what i am doing, and you gain that from experience. I'm not being patronising or doubting your ability to keep Idolomantis or mantids, but being an excellent chameleon breeder does not automatically make you an excellent mantis breeder (although it can help).
> 
> my 2 pennies worth


true. what species are you experienced with? do you have the eye to tell when a certain staged nymph is beginning to molt? i'd like to know that sort of info. on Wandering Violins. (thats all i have right now) if not, i am still interested in any species.

could a camera catch this display? is it a position that the mantid takes? a certain distance from the light (getting warmer or cooler?)

what is the best temp. for a mantid to molt. not necessarily quickest nor safest, but the most comfortable/ natural way a mantid prefers? this depends on species i am sure, no?

how many of you keepers keep temp. gauges in different spots of the enclosures of your adults? nymphs?

what do you guys think about using substrate? is it really a good thing? it seems that all a substrate is, is a place for bacteria to multiply and spread... in order to keep up the humidity, why not place a real live little plant that is non toxic to the mantid?

live plants are great for keeping mildew on the leaves, maintaing longer humidity... just a thought...

As for the trial and error thing, it reminds me of why people should have blogs/note pages on their own "growing experiences".

any people on here have notes on observations etc.? what could have caused this/that etc. what did cause this/that etc.

its a shame that this species is held for it's high prices because of its A-Z reasons, but hey, i believe it is worth trying and trying and suceeding.

i would really appreciate any info. on why a substrate is good besides keeping the humidity up and decorations. to me, substrate is a bacterial disaster, but, again, a lot of you use it, so... just curious?


----------



## PhilinYuma (Dec 25, 2009)

Wow! So many questions! You will find a lot of day-to-day details on Yen Saw's website and Katt's blog, among many others.

I have never known either an artificial (paper towels) or natural (sphagnum moss) substrate become a breeding ground for bacteria. A substrate will preserve higher than ambient humidity in a pot for a few hours; spritzing a pot without a substrate will elevate the humidity for no more than an hour, in my experience. Also, the chance of tiny nymphs drowning themselves is much higher without a substrate to absorb the water. So there you have two reasons!

I have done fairly extensive tests of both deli cups and 12" cubes for both temp and humidity, with more interest in the latter. For most of the time, the temp inside any enclosure will be the same as ambient unless you apply a localized heat source like a light bulb.

Most tropical mantids, Idolomantis being a notable exception, don't need anything more than ambient heat in a room between 75F and 80F. In net cages, the temp and humidity are likely to aproximate those in the surrounding environment even more closely.

Learning to raise mantids is in part learning from yr own, personal mistakes. You'll make them. You can learn to avoid repeating many but not all of them. It doesn't take a very big mistake to kill a mantis -- sometimes it takes no mistake at all!

When I started keeping mantids, just over a year ago, so I am still a newbie compared with many members here, I read a comment by Peter, who said that he tended to put his nymphs that were about to molt on the top shelf. I was puzzled about how he could possibly tell, and was reminded of the incident a few months ago when I was putting some nymphs that were about to molt on an upper shelf out of the way. If you feed or at least spritz your mantids daily, you can see whether they have stopped eating and whether they react differently when the bung on their enclosure is removed. If you see one about to molt, you start checking to see if its siblings are about to do the same. Sometimes you are wrong, anyway, but most of the time you are right and know to withhold food and make sure that there are no crix in the pot. I release uneaten flies, too.

But there is no teacher like experience. Talk to some breeders and start getting yr feet wet!

And remember, though the vast majority of us here are mantis keepers, very few are Idolomantis keepers and even fewer are breeders. The rest odf us seem to have a great time, though!


----------



## Colorcham427 (Dec 25, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Wow! So many questions! You will find a lot of day-to-day details on Yen Saw's website and Katt's blog, among many others.I have never known either an artificial (paper towels) or natural (sphagnum moss) substrate become a breeding ground for bacteria. A substrate will preserve higher than ambient humidity in a pot for a few hours; spritzing a pot without a substrate will elevate the humidity for no more than an hour, in my experience. Also, the chance of tiny nymphs drowning themselves is much higher without a substrate to absorb the water. So there you have two reasons!
> 
> I have done fairly extensive tests of both deli cups and 12" cubes for both temp and humidity, with more interest in the latter. For most of the time, the temp inside any enclosure will be the same as ambient unless you apply a localized heat source like a light bulb.
> 
> ...


Awesome, thanks for the response dude!  

I'm happy on this forum too!


----------

