# Certain plants poisonous to mantids?



## Andredesz (Dec 15, 2008)

Hello Everyone,

I was wondering if there are certain plants that it's not a good idea to use in a mantis' enclosure. I have a small china doll in my current set-up, and have used hanging ivy as well. My mantids seem healthy when I receive them (I have kept several adults) and then they seem to languish within a few days. I have kept adult wide-arms mantises and peacock mantises in this manner, with a live plant, and I wonder if it might be the plants in their enclosures that are contributing to their declining health. I have kept them at room temperature, feed them crickets and honey, I spray their enclosure about 2x a week and it always seems like the same thing. The first day they eat well and are active, and in the subsequent days they become less active, eat only a little honey and start to fade. The wide-arms seem especially sensitive, I can see the color of their heads change from lime to a darker more fluid filled seeming color, and they just don't eat. I have now also tried heat lamps, because I thought it was perhaps too cold for them and they were slowing down because their metabolism was, but they still just hang there.

Could it be that they are cold when my daughter and I handle them, which forces them to move when really they are too cold to move about suddenly. Maybe their blood is too thick when they're cold, and forcing them to move sends that blood rushing through them causing problems with their systems. These guesses are probably way off base, I'm just so discouraged. I know that they are in their final stage of life as adults, and that they would die anyway, but it just seems to be happening so quickly after I receive them. I know its hard to guess what could be going wrong, there are so many factors, but I thought I should ask about the plants.

Thank you!

Carol A


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## Katnapper (Dec 15, 2008)

Hi Carol,

I don't know if any plant species are poisonous to mantids. But it doesn't seem likely, and I wouldn't worry about that too much. As far as them "languishing" after you receive them... are they ending up appearing sick or dying? Mantids aren't known for lots of continual activity. They generally do just sit there, even if nothing is "wrong" with them. Maybe they were more active right after you got them as they were scared and skittish about the trip, being handled, and being in a new environment?

I'm wondering if you're putting too much worry into caring for them? Mantids don't eat constantly. But I realize you don't want to dismiss them not eating in case there is something wrong. How many days do they go without wanting to eat? I have no idea if anything is wrong... sounds like you are doing everything right with them. Maybe others can give their opinions and shed some light. Good luck with them.  

Edit: I thought of something else. Are you feeding them Pet Shop bought crickets? I think feeding crickets is just fine, but the ones you buy from Pet-Co or similar places usually aren't very healthy by the time they reach the consumer. Many times they don't feed them, or if they do it may not be very nutritious food. Sometimes they are kept in unsanitary or crowded conditions, and may be sick or starved by the time you get them. This could translate into poor quality food or potential problems for your mantids if they eat them straight from the shop. If you do buy crickets this way, make sure to water and feed them a good quality diet for a couple of days (at least) before giving them to your mantids. Just an idea... and one that there has been much controversy about I might add.


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## Rick (Dec 15, 2008)

Anything should be fine. I used to use live plants and never had a problem.


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## Andredesz (Dec 15, 2008)

Hi Katnapper,

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my inquiry. The mantids I have that are not eating are usually not eating because they are deteriorating, for example I have a wide-arm mantis whose left raptorial leg no longer flexes, and half of his head is now black, as if there were dark fluid forming there. I got my peacock mantis about two weeks ago, and I have never witnessed it eating anything that I didn't handfeed it. Somehow its been staying alive with honey and water, but it was much more active when I first got it, and now it's very close to death, it can't even move its mandibles to accept honey anymore. I feel so sorry for it. The first wide-arm mantis I got ate well for a couple days, and them began secreting some fluid from somewhere on his face. I would swab it with tissue paper, but soon it lost the ability to move it's head. It's like a couple days after I receive a new mantises, they start to die.

Now that you mention it, I have been getting my crickets at the same place every time. I had meant to ask on these boards about the smell they give off when I open the bags they are sold in. I open the bags and there is an odor like stale urine, or some kind of cheese. I don't know if that's usual for crickets or not. The pet store where we get our crickets has a little house in back where they keep feeder animals, and it's not viewed by shoppers. So I don't know about the conditions they are kept in. I don't think it's the crickets though because the first couple mantises I had ate caterpillars I found in my yard exclusively, and they died in the same mysterious way. They start to become sickly in some debilitating way. I just don't know, maybe I should post this in the health issues topic area.

Carol A


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## Rob Byatt (Dec 16, 2008)

Andredesz said:


> The first wide-arm mantis I got ate well for a couple days, and them began secreting some fluid from somewhere on his face. I would swab it with tissue paper, but soon it lost the ability to move it's head. It's like a couple days after I receive a new mantises, they start to die.


I was expecting you to say this. Out of all the species I have kept, _Cilnia humeralis_ are possibly the worst to feed with crickets. I've bred this species since 2005 and as soon as I stopped using crickets I had approx. 40% less losses. I am 110% sure this is the problem with this mantis


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## d0rk2dafullest (Dec 16, 2008)

That's very useful info Rob. I just got in some Clinia, and I normally dont feed my mantids crickets, kinda scared, unless it was in my backyard =)

but then again i dont really have any mantids that big either. haha. All my mantids are at least 2 inches and that's it. haha. Hopefully my giant asian will grow up quiick.

Oh btw as for the plant thing. I think your okay.

*(just dont put in reefa in the aquarium  )


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## Katnapper (Dec 16, 2008)

d0rk2dafullest said:


> *(just dont put in reefa in the aquarium  )


OK.... crazy thought here. I don't know *why* my mind decided to entertain this question... but here's where Dork2dafullest's comment made my train of thought go. And no, I don't smoke anything other than cigarettes. Though back in the day when I was younger... well, we won't go there!  

Anyway, you've all heard of "medical marijuana" used in the capacity of a treatment for various medical problems. What if exposing mantids to marijuana smoke increased their appetite when ill, or provided other beneficial effects to their health when sick? I know they don't "breathe" in the same fashion as we do. But wouldn't their spiracles absorb the chemical components of the smoke if they were exposed to a fair concentration of it? It might sound foolish or crazy, and I'm not condoning anyone try it... but what if?


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## Andredesz (Dec 16, 2008)

Rob Byatt said:


> I was expecting you to say this. Out of all the species I have kept, _Cilnia humeralis_ are possibly the worst to feed with crickets. I've bred this species since 2005 and as soon as I stopped using crickets I had approx. 40% less losses. I am 110% sure this is the problem with this mantis


Hey Rob, what do you feed them if not crickets? Flies? Silk worms? When I first started keeping mantises, it was much warmer outside. But now there are far less insects for me to catch for them outside. I've read about housefly cultures and such, but I've not tried that yet. I thought it might be overkill to have so many feeder insects because I only have a few pets. But I don't trust the crickets anymore.

Carol A


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## Andredesz (Dec 16, 2008)

d0rk2dafullest said:


> That's very useful info Rob. I just got in some Clinia, and I normally dont feed my mantids crickets, kinda scared, unless it was in my backyard =)but then again i dont really have any mantids that big either. haha. All my mantids are at least 2 inches and that's it. haha. Hopefully my giant asian will grow up quiick.
> 
> Oh btw as for the plant thing. I think your okay.
> 
> *(just dont put in reefa in the aquarium  )


  

Do you feed them fruit flies?

Carol A


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## Andredesz (Dec 16, 2008)

Katnapper said:


> OK.... crazy thought here. I don't know *why* my mind decided to entertain this question... but here's where Dork2dafullest's comment made my train of thought go. And no, I don't smoke anything other than cigarettes. Though back in the day when I was younger... well, we won't go there!  Anyway, you've all heard of "medical marijuana" used in the capacity of a treatment for various medical problems. What if exposing mantids to marijuana smoke increased their appetite when ill, or provided other beneficial effects to their health when sick? I know they don't "breathe" in the same fashion as we do. But wouldn't their spiracles absorb the chemical components of the smoke if they were exposed to a fair concentration of it? It might sound foolish or crazy, and I'm not condoning anyone try it... but what if?


Hi Katnapper,

Love your blog! I understand your reasoning concerning to medical marijuana and it is an interesting idea. But considering all the chemicals in smoke it seems like it would be kind of cruel to actually try it. Back when my cousin stopped eating in a misguided attempt to stay thin, my uncle and I used a drop of THC (the pyschotropic chemical in marijuana) tincture in her salad dressing to see if we could get her eating again. It worked for her, though she never knew why, and now she has a dietician that helps her plan healthy light meals. I bet my uncle still has the tincture but I think it would be way too strong for my mantis. I suppose I could dilute it with salad oil. Well, it's something to think about anyway, thanks Katnapper!

Carol A


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## nasty bugger (Dec 29, 2008)

Before I got on this forum I was emailing with Peter about the book, that's how I found this forum, and he said that as long as they're not carnivorous plants, and no insecticide, that they should be alright.

I think that smoke would bother the mantis, so you could try vaporizing for him  Give him a shotgun  Now I don't condone it either, and I don't smoke, unless I'm in pain, and I am a legal patient in california cause I used to live on the california side of the colorado river and work in AZ and broke my leg, and the percocets the doc gave me destroyed my guts, but I haven't been one to experiment since I was a much younger man, but I don't think the mantis would appreciate the smoke experiment.

I think that if I did want to try this with the mantis I'd feed it's vegitative eating prey some of the medicine and then feed it to the mantis. Gut loading so to speak. As the doc told me though, try different varieties to see what affects you particular ailment best, and use that variety for that particular ailment, now if the mantis has other ailments, a bit of 'research' may be in order...  Try for a gov't grant into this field of study... stranger things have been funded  

They do advocate eating it as a healthy alternative to smoking.


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## kakistos (Jan 13, 2009)

Have you just bought the plants from the store? Because those are full of pesticides. The mantids do not even have to eat the plant to get the poison in them, because the water that you spray can taken the poison with it.

You can test if it's the plants simply by nOT including a plant when you get a new mantis. Just put it in a cup or enclosure with just paper towels and a stick to perch on, screen on the lid. See what they do. It could also be you spray them too much or you use really contaminated dirt to but on the bottom of the cage... I don't know.


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## nasty bugger (Jan 23, 2009)

I use the 'airplant' that live in the air in trees, that supposedly absorb nutrients from the air. The just need a bit of mist occaisionally, and my mantis' enjoy hanging out on them and camoflaging in with them. No problem with the one's I have, and I have about 4 varieties or them.


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## Frack (Jan 23, 2009)

Hi, its weird you talk about giving mantis about giving mantis weed smoke, I think it would probly be cruel and wouldnt help in any other way than pain relieve even if it did that I would think the harm of the smoke would outway any benefits. But as for feeding them marijuana I actually had a friend try this with crickets and with worms like the kind you get for fishing and while they seemed to enjoy eating it, it killed them pretty fast and Ive heard that theres a natural pesticide in it as well so I think that giving any insects marijuana in any form would be bordering animal abuse.


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## Andredesz (Jan 23, 2009)

Frack said:


> Hi, its weird you talk about giving mantis about giving mantis weed smoke, I think it would probly be cruel and wouldnt help in any other way than pain relieve even if it did that I would think the harm of the smoke would outway any benefits. But as for feeding them marijuana I actually had a friend try this with crickets and with worms like the kind you get for fishing and while they seemed to enjoy eating it, it killed them pretty fast and Ive heard that theres a natural pesticide in it as well so I think that giving any insects marijuana in any form would be bordering animal abuse.


I agree, just from what I've read about the toxins in smoke I think that exposing animals to that would be pretty cruel. The posters here have the best intentions however, and those suggestions are mostly in jest.

 

Carol


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## Katnapper (Jan 24, 2009)

Regarding the question of exposing a mantis to marijauana...

It was a *THOUGHT*. Why, I don't know... but some part of my brain entertained the question if it MIGHT possibly have beneficial effects. But it was NOT a suggestion, NOT anything I would ever try, do, or condone (as I previously stated). And expressing that thought on this forum was NOT intended to start a debate on experimentation or cruelty to animals. I was expressing an off-the-wall thought that came into my mind. *That is ALL*. And I think that is all that needs to be said on the subject.


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## Andredesz (Jan 24, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Regarding the question of exposing a mantis to marijauana...
> 
> It was a *THOUGHT*. Why, I don't know... but some part of my brain entertained the question if it MIGHT possibly have beneficial effects. But it was NOT a suggestion, NOT anything I would ever try, do, or condone (as I previously stated). And expressing that thought on this forum was NOT intended to start a debate on experimentation or cruelty to animals. I was expressing an off-the-wall thought that came into my mind. *That is ALL*. And I think that is all that needs to be said on the subject.
> 
> ...


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## Frack (Jan 24, 2009)

Frack said:


> Hi, its weird you talk about giving mantis about giving mantis weed smoke, I think it would probly be cruel and wouldnt help in any other way than pain relieve even if it did that I would think the harm of the smoke would outway any benefits. But as for feeding them marijuana I actually had a friend try this with crickets and with worms like the kind you get for fishing and while they seemed to enjoy eating it, it killed them pretty fast and Ive heard that theres a natural pesticide in it as well so I think that giving any insects marijuana in any form would be bordering animal abuse.


Hi, I just ment its weird because I knew someone that actually gave an insect marijuana not that your wierd for thinking it, it is an interesting thought and I would imagine that there probly are some good uses for it medicinaly since there are for people, makes me think of what other types of plants may have medicinal value for insects. Sorry if I sounded acusatory I certainly didnt mean to imply that anyone here abused there animals.


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## revmdn (Jan 24, 2009)

I just wonder if they get the munchies afterward, and I could only imagine their cravings.


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## Andredesz (Jan 24, 2009)

revmdn said:


> I just wonder if they get the munchies afterward, and I could only imagine their cravings.


My guess would be waxworms covered in honey, followed by a mineral water droplet to chase it down.


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## revmdn (Jan 24, 2009)

And a whole bag of cheetos. I can just imagine them with the orange powder all over their mouth and front claws :lol:


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## sk8erkho (Feb 24, 2009)

Hi Carol,

first, when my mantids (some) begin to show old age similar things begin to happen. I even had on who literally began to fall apart. she began to lose use of her raptoral arms first and was beginning to have problems feeding herself of course her appetite was also compromised as well. Eventually, I signed up here and found that different members had similar experiences with old age setting into their mantids. Of course the symptoms do vary.

Second, recently our building was treated for an unusual outbreak of stinkin bed bugs. The exterminator sprayed EVERYTHING you could think of. Mostly the spraying was concentrated in the bedroom with minimal spray in the living room area. When I received my mantids this time they seemed to begin to wither within days of my receipt. At first, I did not know what was wrong. then one day soon after I received them I went to clean the tanks and do a bit of separating and one jumped off the lid and ran across the floor. I knew there was DE on the carpet and had tried to vacuum most up before they arrived because was very light and became airborne easily/. Well, when I caught it and put him back into the tank only hours later i noticed it could not use it's arms and was losing control of its rear legs. The legs would just rise up and stay for no reason at all and he would struggle to get them back down. Soon, he began to have difficulty moving his head it stayed bent downward and his body seemed to be growing stiff like rigor mortis or something. This kept up right until it died. I then lost another in the same manner and quickly moved my babies to the living room after washing everything down, vacuuming and so on, first. I guess it worked because I have not lost any more in that manner since. So, any poisonous substances, even in the air I imagine, will be suspect for you. Don't know if any of this is related to your situation but of helps in any way but I wish you the best in solving this issue.


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## jamerman (Sep 30, 2010)

Well, I posted this under a different thread a couple of weeks ago but my mantis definitely underwent a behavior change when my boyfriend blew marijuana smoke on him. He got agitated and jumped on me from several feet away. Before that he had never tried to jump anywhere at all!



Katnapper said:


> QUOTE (d0rk2dafullest @ Dec 16 2008, 09:48 AM) *(just dont put in reefa in the aquarium
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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