# instar vs "L" system



## jcal (Jan 22, 2011)

is there a difference between instar and L system? i notice that some people use one vs the other but is there a difference between the 2?


----------



## Orin (Jan 22, 2011)

jcal said:


> is there a difference between instar and L system? i notice that some people use one vs the other but is there a difference between the 2?


L is from the German word. Like no versus nein.


----------



## PeterF (Jan 22, 2011)

If you mean the number (L3 vs Third Instar) then no, there is not a difference.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 23, 2011)

Orin said:


> L is from the German word. Like no versus nein.


How cool! I don't think that I've ever seen it spelled out in German. So what is it? Larvenstadium? Well, since we're having an etymological orgy, "stadium" is from Gr "stadion", a measured distance, (here, the "time distance" between molts). When I was in school in England, two stadia roughly equaled a quarter mile, so a lap in a race, so a race in a stadium. Instar is trickier, and straight from the Latin and means something vague, like "as big as" "as good as" so I guess that "3rd instar" would mean "the third size gradient". What do you want? I'm not a Latin scholar.

I do remember that Rob Byatt once congratulated Peter for using the term "instar" instead of "L", and anything that makes Rob smile has to be a Good Thing.


----------



## Findarato (Jan 23, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> How cool! I don't think that I've ever seen it spelled out in German. So what is it? Larvenstadium? Well, since we're having an etymological orgy, "stadium" is from Gr "stadion", a measured distance, (here, the "time distance" between molts). When I was in school in England, two stadia roughly equaled a quarter mile, so a lap in a race, so a race in a stadium. Instar is trickier, and straight from the Latin and means something vague, like "as big as" "as good as" so I guess that "3rd instar" would mean "the third size gradient". What do you want? I'm not a Latin scholar.
> 
> I do remember that Rob Byatt once congratulated Peter for using the term "instar" instead of "L", and anything that makes Rob smile has to be a Good Thing.


Around here, with people speaking German, it is 'Larvenstadium', mostly abbreviated to Lx.  Just wanted to confirm, since you used a question mark.


----------



## Orin (Jan 23, 2011)

I have a few German books and they spell it Larven-stadium (dash and capital L).


----------



## Findarato (Jan 23, 2011)

Orin said:


> I have a few German books and they spell it Larven-stadium (dash and capital L).


no dash needed, it's uncomon spelling, but not wrong. Capital letters for all nouns though.

What about 'Gottesanbeterinnen-Futter'? (mantis food)


----------



## Gill (Jan 23, 2011)

We have the term larval stages in English. But for nymphs (as opposed to larvae) we tend to use instar I think. Though I think larvae have instars too so I am a bit confused about it. I guess it sounds odd in English to call a nymph a larva.


----------



## Findarato (Jan 23, 2011)

Gill said:


> We have the term larval stages in English. But for nymphs (as opposed to larvae) we tend to use instar I think. Though I think larvae have instars too so I am a bit confused about it. I guess it sounds odd in English to call a nymph a larva.


young mantids are called nymphs (Nymphen) in German too. actually with the term 'larva' at least I associate something worm-like, like something that will be a fly one day. And I have heard the term 'Nymphenstadium' here in Austria also.


----------



## lancaster1313 (Jan 23, 2011)

I like learning the different terminology.  I like that Nymphenstadium word, it just sounds good to me. I always think of grub, or maggotlike creatures when I hear the word larvae.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 23, 2011)

likebugs said:


> I like learning the different terminology.  I like that Nymphenstadium word, it just sounds good to me. I always think of grub, or maggotlike creatures when I hear the word larvae.


Yeah, language is great fun, and etymology often tries to put a logical face on what is generally an illogical subject. "Larva" means ghost or mask, among other things, in Latin. It is nice to believe that this is some kind of clever Linean reference to larvae -- maggots -- as masks of the future imago, but I suspect that before that, people associated "larva" with the plentiful fly maggots, slippery little white ghosts. I remember in London occasionally hearing a mother (never a father, for some reason) yell at her small child "come 'ere yer little maggit". Now they may have been likening the child to a larval form of themselves, but I suspect that they were just being mean.

I have never heard an etymological explanation of "nymph", so I am going to make one up right now, just for forum members. Nymphs, of course are the semi divine, female spirits of the countryside.and it is kind of hard, for me at least, to see any connection between, say, a mantis or grasshopper nymph and one of those marvelous creatures. Dragonfly nymphs, though, are called naiads in English, and it is not hard to imagine countrymen observing them climbing out of the water on a summer's evening, seeing them sprout wings and gorgeous colors and imagining them to be the personification of the naiads or water nymphs. That's my version, anyway, and like all bad etymology, it sounds possible but lacks any supporting evidence. Who needs facts?


----------



## batsofchaos (Jan 23, 2011)

Nymphs are associated, in addition to nature and femininity, with youth which makes perfect sense for growing insects. According to wikipedia one of the meanings from root words is swelling in size, which also fits nicely. I'll have to ask my wife about it; she studied linguistics in college.


----------



## Findarato (Jan 23, 2011)

Not sure about nymphs and their etymology, except what Phil said.

I had another idea reading the posts above:'Larve' is an old German word for 'mask' (I think that word 'larva' is latin in origin), so it could be connected to their appearance of (like fly larvae) looking very different from the adult insect they will be. nymphs (like mantids, crickets and grasshoppers) look like their parents, only smaller.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 23, 2011)

Yes, the connection between "larva" and "mask" is accepted by just about everyone, and with out checking, I believe is attributed to Lineus.

I must admit that I was fooling around with an etymology for "nymph" because I thought that it was pretty well know. I'm not an etymologist by any means, but i did read mostly etymological texts for the greater part of my liguistic doctoral orals, so I have a fair idea of how the subject works. I spoke of "bad etymology" in an earlier post, and the author in Wikipedia commits exactly the sin that I referred to, talking about some unnamed "reader" who found an unstated "root" that _might_ refer to swelling. This is amateur guessing games.

The real etymology is pretty straightforward. νύμφη refers most commonly to an unmarried woman or bride-to-be in real life. Remember that this meaning is rather different from the almost immortal spirits of the countryside, daughters of Zeus, found in Greek myths. You will find this etymology in _The Oxford Classical Dictionary_ under -- wait for it -- nymph. In the Oxford English Dictionary, under definition #3, dealing with insects, there is a quotation from Gould's _English Anals_ 1747: "They are thus called [nymphs] in allusion to brides, because when they leave this state they are often arrayed in Gayety and Splendour." That's good enough for me.


----------



## batsofchaos (Jan 24, 2011)

I talked to my wife earlier; she concluded that any connection to a meaning of swelling was sure to have been lost when the use of 'nymph' in relation to insects entered English, and the meaning at the time was closer to 'bridal maiden' than anything else.

Language sure is fascinating.


----------



## kamakiri (Jan 25, 2011)

So perhaps we should be using N1, N2, etc.?


----------



## batsofchaos (Jan 25, 2011)

Proper words aside, the primary purpose of language is to make yourself understood to those with whom you're speaking. L# or #th instar are the commonly used terms in the community and entomological world at large, so changing to something else just to use an abbreviation for an english word would just make oneself more difficult to understand. Not really worth it in my opinion.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 25, 2011)

kamakiri said:


> So perhaps we should be using N1, N2, etc.?


A good idea, but I'm afraid that a lot of people would think that it referred to Nixon1, etc. How about C[Child]1 or O[Ongoing]1? At least those would be real American abreviations instead of that foeign Latin and German rubbish.

It's really nice to have you back, Grant.


----------



## kamakiri (Jan 28, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> A good idea, but I'm afraid that a lot of people would think that it referred to Nixon1, etc. How about C[Child]1 or O[Ongoing]1? At least those would be real American abreviations instead of that foeign Latin and German rubbish.
> 
> It's really nice to have you back, Grant.


I'd say you know I'm just kidding...but I've been away from most fora for the most of 2010 and forget to use me smilies    

And thanks...It is nice to be back! Even though I fight the temptation to buy more manties every day now! :lol:


----------

