# Mantis diarrhea



## Rick

Having a problem with this lately. It is affecting all species but not all individuals. Only common link between all of those affected is crickets. Crickets have been my main food source all along and I have not had this problem. It is even affecting those mantids who have been fed some wild caught food. I usually feed my crickets "spring mix" which is a mixture of leafy greens. I have always fed them that without this problem in the mantids. Thinking maybe it might be the problem I started feeding the crickets ground up cat food. The problem persists in the mantids. Any suggestions?


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## Rick

Twenty views and nobody has anything to say on this topic? Guess I am the only one that has had this problem.


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## garbonzo13

Hey Rick, think maybe it's just a sudden change in food. Kinda like eating healthy and going to McDonalds....humans tend to get the squirts. Hey man just a guess.


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## Rick

Yeah maybe but most of them have had no change in food.


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## infinity

sure it's diarrhea? it could be a drop of water mixing with the frass at the bottom of the cage?


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## Rick

They spray it all over the sides of the cage.


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## Jason

how about the water? maybe the water ur using to spary the mantids has something in it that they dont agree with? to much clorine(spelling) maybe filters dirty i dont know, but water might be it. if not then maybe one was sick and you didnt realize it and then you spread it to some others.


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## Jason

how about the water? maybe the water ur using to spary the mantids has something in it that they dont agree with? to much clorine(spelling) maybe filters dirty i dont know, but water might be it. if not then maybe one was sick and you didnt realize it and then you spread it to some others.


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## Rick

I've thought about the water but don't think it's an issue. I have not done anything different lately.


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## summerland

try to vary your cricket diet and see... I would take them off pet food.. i don't even feed my pets the commercial foods because of rancid ingredients, and i don't feed my crickets my organic pet food because of the carrot content...sorry if this isn't very helpful.


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## Rick

I did change the diet. I thought it might be the leafy greens the crickets were eating.


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## PseudoDave

I was wondering if maybe the gutload that the crickets were getting could be responsible, still may not be but certainly worth exploring...


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## Rick

Yeah thats why I changed their diet. Even though the old diet is what I always fed em.


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## Macano

It seems whenever I give my mantids crickets, they get the runnies also. But they don't with roaches or moths, or flies. I finally gave up on crickets partly because of that. I always just bought the crickets from a pet store, so maybe it was what they were feeding them there.


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## Christian

Hi.

It seems to me to be the "vomiting desease" that appeared a while ago. It originates mostly from the crickets, seems to be a mass desease in cricket stocks that spreads to the mantids. A bad thing, even flies sucking on dead infected crickets may get it, so a mantid eating such a fly gets it, too. It seems to be a protozoan, some kind of gregarine sporozyte called _Nosema_.

Infected mantids regurgitate a reddish fluid and smear it on all the plants and walls of the jar. Infected mantids may be cured sometimes by higher temperatures and drier conditions, but in all cases I had they were later infertile as adults.

That's why I do not feed crickets anymore, just flies, _Thermobium_, wax moths and roaches, sometimes locusts.

Regards,

Christian


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## Rick

> Hi.It seems to me to be the "vomiting desease" that appeared a while ago. It originates mostly from the crickets, seems to be a mass desease in cricket stocks that spreads to the mantids. A bad thing, even flies sucking on dead infected crickets may get it, so a mantid eating such a fly gets it, too. It seems to be a protozoan, some kind of gregarine sporozyte called _Nosema_.
> 
> Infected mantids regurgitate a reddish fluid and smear it on all the plants and walls of the jar. Infected mantids may be cured sometimes by higher temperatures and drier conditions, but in all cases I had they were later infertile as adults.
> 
> That's why I do not feed crickets anymore, just flies, _Thermobium_, wax moths and roaches, sometimes locusts.Christian


Hmmm seems to make the most sense. I guess I don't know which end it's coming out of really. It is affecting some but not others. Seems to be affecting H. Grandis the most out of any of them. My turtle eats the crickets and he is fine. I got the crickets from the same vendor as always and I am feeding them the same stuff. So are the mantids able to recover or should I destroy the affected mantids along with the crickets?

Thanks


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## ellroy

If this is the case it's something that needs to be well researched, I'm sure we could all help by keeping records on feeding etc but I know not everyone has the time to do that.

I have only ever given my mantids crickets once, the rest of the time they have been fed on fruit flies and wild caught house flies and crane flies and 2 of my mantids produced vomit on the same day. This was months after they had eaten a cricket and has not happened again since. I'm hoping this is just a couple of dodgy flies in my case.

Would it be possible to run a 'vomit' thread where people can report if and when it occurs with their mantids. Perhaps if we use a standard format ie:

Mantid Species: .....................

Food type: .....................

Source of food:................... (may help to pinpoint dodgy batches of crickets)

Cricket food:....................

Duration of sickness:...................

Treatment?: ...............................

There might be some other info people might think would be valuable but it could help build a picture of whats going on.

Just an idea, might prevent people losing mantids unneccessarily,

Alan


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## infinity

YAY!!! I can now speak from experience!!! - although my mantid having a bout of projectile sh!tt!ing is not exactly a good thing...

but ok,

Species: PW

Food: recently a mixture - brown crix and craneflies

Prey's Food: crix fed on *Reptiluxe* - craneflies... (wait, i'll ask them)

Source of food: fresh out packet *livefoodsdirect*

Duration/ time: acute

Colour: (gonna sound obvious) lightish brown

Temp: about 20*

Humidity: 30-40% (hadn't sprayed for a while)

Other notable points: Possibly overfed?...


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## Christian

Hi.

Rick wrote: "... Seems to be affecting H. Grandis the most out of any of them. My turtle eats the crickets and he is fine. I got the crickets from the same vendor as always and I am feeding them the same stuff. So are the mantids able to recover or should I destroy the affected mantids along with the crickets?..."

It's a complicated thing, because there is a lack of data regarding this illness. We hypothesized _Nosema_ due to several similar symptomes in locusts and bees, but is it really _Nosema_? Further, some mantids are vomiting without having eaten any cricket, especially when kept too warm. Is this _Nosema_ too, or another desease? Do these get infertile, too? Well, maybe I'll know more about this point in the future, I have a stock of young_ D. lobata_ that had smeared some fluid in their cage, seeming to be otherwise still fit, though. I'll know if they had become infertile when the ooths will be to hatch... or not.

However, verts do fine with any crickets, it does not affect them.

When the mantids do not die massively, just separate them from the others and keep them under prospection. But clean all affected jars very well or throw them away.

Infinity wrote: "... my mantid having a bout of projectile sh!tt!ing..."

Mantids sometimes spray a yellowish bunch of fluid out of their anus, that's when they are well-fed. They may regulate their water and/or Nitrogene level like this. That is normal and has nothing to do with the case above.

Regards,

Christian


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## Arachnids

Is your mantis okay now?


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## Rick

The only ones that seem to still be affected are the H. Grandis'.


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## DMJ

I've had a female P.Wahlbergii barf a dark brown liquid and at the time she was getting fed store bought crickets and WC house flies. The day after she barfed she ended up dying.


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## chris b

From Christian: _It seems to me to be the "vomiting desease" that appeared a while ago. It originates mostly from the crickets, seems to be a mass desease in cricket stocks that spreads to the mantids. A bad thing, even flies sucking on dead infected crickets may get it, so a mantid eating such a fly gets it, too. It seems to be a protozoan, some kind of gregarine sporozyte called Nosema. _

Infected mantids regurgitate a reddish fluid and smear it on all the plants and walls of the jar. Infected mantids may be cured sometimes by higher temperatures and drier conditions

The day before yesterday my ghost had excreted the reddish fluid described above, several small drops, i have only ever fed him on fruit flies. This morning he was on the bottom of his container, standing and alert, but this was unusual as he doesnt normally move away from the top. It's a week since his last moult (think he's L3 or L4, not sure, its my first ghost and only the third mantis i've kept, on his last moult he developed the leafy shield protrusions on his shoulders), he isnt interested in eating today but will brush off any flies that climb on him (i put a few in this morning but have since removed them after it was clear he wasnt going to eat). I am concerned about the excretion of the red fluid and will attempt to increase the temp as per Christians suggestion - my main worry tho is that his abdomen is very thin despite a few days of good feeding prior to the red fluid excretion. The lack of interest in food would suggest he is preparing to moult (or is just ill?), but his thin condition makes me think he wont make it through the moult. Any reassurance would be very appreciated! (sorry about the essay, am worried and just wanted to be clear).


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## Rick

I foudn out what caused the problem at least for me. I fed my crickets a lot of leafy greans. This was good for my herps but seems it can cause some mantids to vomit/excrete. I had a batch of crickets for my herps and a batch for my mantids. The ones for the mantids were fed fish food flakes, cat food etc etc. The problem in the mantids went away. I tested this theory a few times and the problem went away.


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## nympho

Ive noticed that mantids can produce BOTH dry frass AND squirt out alot of liquid directly after eating. I noticed this several times when my idolomantis eat a large number of bluebottle flies - seems they want get rid of excess liquid that they don't need. There abdomens get really fat, then deflate rapidly on getting rid of this liquid - all over the glass! This surprised me as I thought they would want to conserve moisture. This has probably got nothing to do with diarea problems but interesting anyway.


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## Mike

i have had this happen to my old P.Wahlbergii before. I bought it and it didnt eat at all and the whole time it puked out this brown wet stuff and it smelt too.. and it would only drink water for about a week then it finally died..

I also had another problem with mantids before is that their faces start turning black like rotting alive and it only takes a few days to kill the mantis and the mantis smeeeellls like its been dead for a long time right after it dies..? I have also been told that its something to do with the crickets or something? im not sure if this relates to the puking but maybe??


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## DeShawn

It is for sure the crickets. There is a disease that crickets get that can affect various other insects and reptiles. As Christian stated, it can also affect flies and other insects, although it is far more rare. I have had flies infect my mantids 1 time ever. It can also infect fruitflies occasionally, but they are so small it only seems to kill very young mantids, L1-L2 or so. You will usually notice a red line or trail in the mantids enclosure when it has the bacteria, although they do not always die from it. A friend of mine told me more about it a few months ago, but I forget the name of it. It used to kill my mantids every time, but now I have gotten pretty good at fixing the problem by doing the following things:

1. Change/clean and sterilize the container everyday when you notice the bacteria in the enclosure.

2. Don't feed or give water to the mantid for a couple days. This is usually best when the mantid gets bigger and can go a few days without eating.

3. Stop feeding crickets. Switch to roaches or flies, preferably roaches as they seem to be immune to the bacteria (they live through almost anything!). I have never had any problems with roaches.

I have noticed that it only happened to me now when I used crickets I had just purchased, or crickets that had been feeding on carrots. I still use crickets often with my mantids, but only a week after I get them (I order 1000 at a time) and they have been eating the food I prepare for them. I also only feed light colored healthy looking crix to my mantids.

I have also noticed this affected P. wahlbergii more than any of my other species. And something Christian stated may have solved a problem I have been wondering about for a few weeks now. He stated that those infected are often infertile as adults. I keep track of all my breeder mantids... molting dates, problems, dates mated, etc etc. 4 out of 7 male wahlbergii and 2 females were spewing this bacteria when I got them at L6. Looking back at the records now, NONE of the females that were bred with those males, nor those 2 females laid any fertile ooths (or at least have not hatched yet, 7 weeks and counting). They also often lay crappy and/or partial ooths. I guess I can toss out those ooths now eh? The ooths from the 3 females that were mated with the non-infected males are hatching on time, predictable to the day.

Anyway, sorry so long, but that has been my experience.

DeShawn


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## 13ollox

Sh*te , My Mantis Has it !!! 13ollox 13ollox 13ollox , she is my 1st mantis and i dont want her to die !!! theres nasty reddy brown stuff all over its enclousure and its spewing loads right now , i have only fed her crix and so i guess thats the end for her ... thats really peeved me off !!!  the crix were fed salad things only ( no carrots ) and its still got it :evil: , im really pissed right now !!! any ideas how i shud ease her pain ?

sadly yours

Neil


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## ellroy

Thats a real shame..... I'm not saying its definitely the parasite but if you decide to put it out of its misery, freezing it is probably the most humane method.....leave it in over night to be sure its dead.

Alan


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## DeShawn

Depending on her size/age and how strong she is now, she could possibly get over it. It is not a death sentence 100%. I have sent you a pm.


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## Candy

I know this was started a while ago and and I'm probably of no help now but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth since I haven't seen this mentioned any where and I may start a thread on it just to get others' thoughts. I know that crickets can carry aflatoxins. They get by the food the cricket supplier or pet store usually feeds them. Suppliers and stores feed crickets a ground up corn mixture and if it gets moldy the crickets become affected with aflatoxins I know this has caused problems in insect eating mammals (ie: sugar gliders) where in some cases the animal has died. I have not heard of aflatoxin affecting reptiles and don't know if it would cause problems with mantids or other insects. From what I understand the aflatoxin affects the crickets DNA and therefore they can not be "cured" of it. I don't know if any of this helps or if it makes sense but it may be the underlying cause for sick mantids.


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## Ian

Wow, nice work candy. Thanks for the advice on that. I have given up on feeding crickets to most of my mantids...usually stick with hoppers, roaches and flies.


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## DeShawn

That is very useful information. There are lots of things that could effect crickets, but this one is a biggy. I stopped using crickets myself for awhile, but have since learned how to prevent/minimize the problems with them. I put a bit of info on my site about it (haven't posted it live yet) http://www.mantiskingdom.com/index.php?mk=crickets. Crickets are a big part of my mantids diet again, and I have had no problems at all lately (knock on wood).

Thanks for the info Candy! Excellent post.


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## Christian

Hi.

The problem is: crickets* as such* are not bad at all. I would like to use them. But mass-reared, *bought* crickets are the problem. If you breed your crickets for yourself, there should be no difficulties. I know people who feed self-grown crickets without any sickness symptoms. As I cannot do this, I stopped feeding them.

Regards,

Christian


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## Rick

I feed mainly crickets. Only about once or twice a year do I have problems like this.


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## Butterflyhornet

I get simular problems with caterpillars, only the caterpillars vomit, more often than diarrhea. Most often for them it becomes a death sentence. I've only had one and it was a monarch that survived and it was a miracle how it made it from almost being dead twice to make it through to be a healthy adult. I remember holding the sickly caterpillar near a lamp and gentley pressing on it to get it to expell the contaminated content and hoping and praying for the best. I think I also used a baby wipe or a tiny amount of hydrogen peroxide on a tissue to clean the body. I think the heat from the lamp helped. The prayer may have helped too, I don't know.

I wonder if what attacks my caterpillars on a yearly basis could be a related disease? Perhaps it affects all insects (or larvae) with a large gut?

My thoughts it may be bacteria or virus based. Insects can suffer viruses too.


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## DeShawn

You can get a spray at www.livemonarch.com that helps with your caterpillars. I would imagine it would be useful for many insects. I used them on my wahlbergii when I was having a problem with infections and it helped quite a bit.


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## Rory

mine have had this problem, I thought it was overfeeding so I didn't feed for 5 days, and the problem was fixed. I noticed it on the moult aswell, it kind of made it hard for him to moult.


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