# My first mantids ever found in wild, G. Grisea! Plus, mysterious ootheca



## vulturette (Sep 9, 2015)

EDIT: To recap: The nymphs ended up being liturgusa nymphs, not grisea. Not native to florida. The mystery ootheca are liturgusa. I went back and got more nymphs and some adults. The adult has laid an ooth. The other died of old age. Will try and keep them in culture. They rock!

Before today, I had never seen a mantis in the wild. I messaged around the forums, and mantiseater gave me some pointers  So today I drove an hour away and actually found some (after five hours of determination. I have a very patient/awesome boyfriend helper).

I found (what I'm 80% sure) is two g. grisea nymphs. Man, these things are small, and wayyyyy faster than my P. Paradoxa. Not a very good photo, I know.







I also found four ootheca. I'm not sure what laid them, and if they are hatched already. They all have uniform holes. I'll be crushed if they are hatched already, but at least I got cool specimens for my collection. Standard house key for scale.






I also found those weird things with the more standard ootheca. I'm not sure what they are, but I was hoping you guys would know something. They look too small to be ootheca but they do look organic.

There isn't an official g. grisea caresheet, I've searched for them on the forum and read the previous topics, but does anyone have any tips for their care? I've heard they are tricky and I've only had experience with P. Paradoxa (although I've had zero problems with them).


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## Danny. (Sep 10, 2015)

Nice find, just add pieces of bark to the enclosure.

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=29060&amp;hl=%2Bgonatista+%2Bgrisea#entry237925


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## CosbyArt (Sep 10, 2015)

Nice, congrats on the mantid nymphs





Sorry, the 4 ooths however have all been hatched, there is nothing left. Judging by their looks, and complete lack of hatching "strings" and such they are a few seasons old too. If you find holes in the hatching area of a ooth they are empty and have hatched. Holes in a ooth anywhere else especially along the sides/back are from parasitic wasps that hatched.


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## vulturette (Sep 10, 2015)

CosbyArt said:


> Nice, congrats on the mantid nymphs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! Although that is a bummer. I'll have to go back sometime and see if I see any fresh ones.The other four little things, do you have any idea what they are? They are made of ootheca like material, but I think maybe they are too uniform to be ootheca?


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## CosbyArt (Sep 10, 2015)

vulturette said:


> Thanks! Although that is a bummer. I'll have to go back sometime and see if I see any fresh ones.The other four little things, do you have any idea what they are? They are made of ootheca like material, but I think maybe they are too uniform to be ootheca?


Your welcome, I was the same when I found my first wild ooths, it is a let down. Keep at it though you are bound to find some from this season not hatched.

I am not sure what those other white ones are, various searches turned up nothing either for me. You should seal them in a jar if you want to hold onto them, so they will not hatch all over your room just in case.


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## vulturette (Sep 10, 2015)

CosbyArt said:


> Your welcome, I was the same when I found my first wild ooths, it is a let down. Keep at it though you are bound to find some from this season not hatched.
> 
> I am not sure what those other white ones are, various searches turned up nothing either for me. You should seal them in a jar if you want to hold onto them, so they will not hatch all over your room just in case.


I used a list of all Florida mantids and checked what each of their ooths look like; none of them match. But they are definitely alive looking. So I sealed them away and I hope something cool hatches! Just not a mantis.


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## mantiseater (Sep 10, 2015)

those are liturgusa not grisea!!!!!!!!!! last year i found an l1 nymph there at that exact same place but everyone thought it was grisea!!!


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## Rick (Sep 10, 2015)

vulturette, can you take some clear pics of the mantids?


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## mantiseater (Sep 10, 2015)

Most wild ooths u find have parasites because if we found them the wasps found them way before hahaha


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## vulturette (Sep 10, 2015)

The plot thickens! Here are some better photos of one of them. They are quick, but I dont think they are skittish! The one I tried photographing followed the flashlight I used for lighting around the container. Very cute!

Underside photo, I counted six segments, so female? The other one I think is a male (not pictured), and one instar bigger.






Side view






Back, a little more blurry.











Hope these are better.


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## Rick (Sep 10, 2015)

Thanks. There is definitely something peculiar about them and they don't look quite right for G. grisea.

This is G. grisea of about the same instar:


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## vulturette (Sep 10, 2015)

Rick said:


> Thanks. There is definitely something peculiar about them and they don't look quite right for G. grisea.
> 
> This is G. grisea of about the same instar:


The butt on mine is too smooth, it doesn't have those notches on the segments. I have a list of florida mantids from the entomology school but none of them besides Grisea have the patterning. That's strange.


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## CosbyArt (Sep 10, 2015)

I've looked up many species and the Grisea appears the closest, depending on the nymph coloration. I never owned that species so I have no idea.

I did however turn up a guide of Florida mantids, seems there are 12 different species that can be found.



So it looks like you have plenty of species you can get to keep you busy.


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## vulturette (Sep 10, 2015)

CosbyArt said:


> I've looked up many species and the Grisea appears the closest, depending on the nymph coloration. I never owned that species so I have no idea.
> 
> I did however turn up a guide of Florida mantids, seems there are 12 different species that can be found.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's the guide I used. Grisea is the closest listed for sure. I guess the only way to be sure is to grow them up! It's a little stressful taking care of something without all the details. but I did find it outside so it can't be terribly hard to work with with my current room conditions.


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## CosbyArt (Sep 10, 2015)

vulturette said:


> Yeah, that's the guide I used. Grisea is the closest listed for sure. I guess the only way to be sure is to grow them up! It's a little stressful taking care of something without all the details. but I did find it outside so it can't be terribly hard to work with with my current room conditions.


Sounds like a perfect way to find out, just wait them out.  Indeed they should be fine as many species are very similar in their basic needs - so simply keep them at room temperature, mist with water as needed and keep it fed with appropriate sized feeders. Of course if you have any problems just post in the forum.


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## mantiseater (Sep 10, 2015)

It is in the genus liturgusa


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## mantiseater (Sep 10, 2015)

they are very difficult with their breeding and many times have trouble feeding, although not always. The l1 nymphs are very tiny and need to eat spring-tails. They need lots of humidity so i would recommend lining the bottom of the container with damp paper towel.


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## vulturette (Sep 10, 2015)

mantiseater said:


> It is in the genus liturgusa


So does that mean it is invasive? Since it wasn't on the lists for Florida mantids. Or is it just newly discovered here? Where are you getting this information?



mantiseater said:


> they are very difficult with their breeding and many times have trouble feeding, although not always. The l1 nymphs are very tiny and need to eat spring-tails. They need lots of humidity so i would recommend lining the bottom of the container with damp paper towel.


I'm pretty sure they are past l1. They look big enough for fruit flies now, way bigger than my ghosts when they arrived. I bought a culture today, will report back when I have them in proper enclosures and have attempted feeding. I'm pretty sure I have a male and female, one instar apart. So probably won't be able to breed. But we shall see!

EDIT: Not sure if I can double post, so I'll update. They both are feeding on drosophila flies. Hurray! Little hunters.


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## vulturette (Sep 11, 2015)

Looking at this post: could my weird little things in the ootheca picture be liturgusa ootheca?? Should I start ordering springtails just in case? And that means that the liturgusa are now breeding in south florida, which I assume isn't good. I wonder how the heck they got here.

EDIT: where did the link go? http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9777&amp;hl=liturgusa#entry56360


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## CosbyArt (Sep 11, 2015)

vulturette said:


> Looking at this post: could my weird little things in the ootheca picture be liturgusa ootheca?? Should I start ordering springtails just in case? And that means that the liturgusa are now breeding in south florida, which I assume isn't good. I wonder how the heck they got here.
> 
> EDIT: where did the link go? http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9777&amp;hl=liturgusa#entry56360


Indeed yours looks like the ones that yen_saw shared a photo of (linked to below), and looks a little smoke or cherry bomb. I would have never guessed it was a mantid ooth.  A good catch by mantiseater, as it appears it explains the unknown ooths and perhaps your nymphs too.

In regards to how they got to Florida, there are a few ways - stowaways with freight/boats, a travelers unknown souvenir/hitchhiker, released by a irresponsible mantid keeper, introduced as a pest control back in the early 20th century in limited numbers, or naturally found their way (most unlikely). Seems to be a trend lately, as there are at least one mantid in California lately too that shouldn't be there.


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## Rick (Sep 11, 2015)

CosbyArt said:


> Seems to be a trend lately, as there are at least one mantid in California lately too that shouldn't be there.


Care to elaborate?


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## CosbyArt (Sep 11, 2015)

Rick said:


> Care to elaborate?


Found it finally.  The mysterious ooth and nymphs that hatched from one that DETHCHEEZ found, and seemed to be a Miomantis caffra. He sold some of the nymphs, but seems there never was a ID for the mantids that anyone agreed on. Member sgtkeens said he saw some of the mantids in LA too. Here is the thread about it all.


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## mantiseater (Sep 11, 2015)

There is a very good chance that it is liturgusa Maya and was probably not introduced just overlooked and was called grisea. Also it may only be found in that area. The bigger the range the more likely for it to be discovered


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## vulturette (Sep 11, 2015)

So any ideas if the ootheca are hatched or not? Since they the nymphs apparently come out of the tube. And I definitely need springtails right? Whatever is in these tiny ooths are tiny too x.x


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## Rick (Sep 11, 2015)

vulturette said:


> So any ideas if the ootheca are hatched or not? Since they the nymphs apparently come out of the tube. And I definitely need springtails right? Whatever is in these tiny ooths are tiny too x.x


They don't appear to be. I wouldn't think they would come out of the "tube" part but I am not familiar with the species.


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## vulturette (Sep 11, 2015)

Rick said:


> They don't appear to be. I wouldn't think they would come out of the "tube" part but I am not familiar with the species.


The post I linked said that they do. So it wouldn't show the standard signs of being hatched. Might just have to wait them out. EDIT: also, the stem is hollow. So it makes sense to me.


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## Rick (Sep 12, 2015)

vulturette said:


> The post I linked said that they do. So it wouldn't show the standard signs of being hatched. Might just have to wait them out. EDIT: also, the stem is hollow. So it makes sense to me.


Yep I see that now. I'd definitely set them up and wait and see if they hatch.


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## vulturette (Sep 12, 2015)

All of the tubes were hollow and identical, so I decided to cut one open to see if it is hatched. It was! So I'm assuming that all of them are. I'll keep them just in case of course. I'd assume that if my hatched one the tube was open at the end, the nonhatched ones would have the end shut. I'll try and go back to the spot soon and see if I can confirm that.


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## CosbyArt (Sep 12, 2015)

vulturette said:


> All of the tubes were hollow and identical, so I decided to cut one open to see if it is hatched. It was! So I'm assuming that all of them are. I'll keep them just in case of course. I'd assume that if my hatched one the tube was open at the end, the nonhatched ones would have the end shut. I'll try and go back to the spot soon and see if I can confirm that.


Too bad.  Does make sense that the end would be closed to prevent other insects from climbing in and eating the eggs though.


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## vulturette (Sep 12, 2015)

CosbyArt said:


> Too bad.  Does make sense that the end would be closed to prevent other insects from climbing in and eating the eggs though.


Dude I am so happy about that though! I didn't want to release the ooth back outside since they apparently don't belong here, but I didn't want to raise those tiny little nymphs and probably kill most accidentally. I've never had an ootheca before, I can't imagine starting with something so ridiculously tiny. Maybe sometime tomorrow I'll post pictures of the inside. So many tiny little chambers.


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## CosbyArt (Sep 12, 2015)

vulturette said:


> Dude I am so happy about that though! I didn't want to release the ooth back outside since they apparently don't belong here, but I didn't want to raise those tiny little nymphs and probably kill most accidentally. I've never had an ootheca before, I can't imagine starting with something so ridiculously tiny. Maybe sometime tomorrow I'll post pictures of the inside. So many tiny little chambers.


Looking forward to the photos, as it is such a strange ooth.  

I can understand the hesitation. I've hatched/incubated eighteen ooths now and no matter what is done many die (that is why they hatch such high number to start with). The typical figure for nymphs that will make it to adulthood is realistically 15%-25% depending on species from the total number that hatch. As I'm no expert, I'd hate to see how many mantid deaths that are tallied against me.


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## mantiseater (Sep 12, 2015)

They actually do belong there they are most likely native if they are a new species


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## mantiseater (Sep 12, 2015)

If not it is still a possibility that they are native


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## mantisman 230 (Sep 12, 2015)

The Liturgursa genus is relative new and unstudied, with 19 new species being found in recent years.


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## vulturette (Sep 13, 2015)

Alright well I think I'll start a new topic once either of them molt for the first time (or anything interesting happens) and keep a photo log, etc. Document as much as I can about them. For science! hah.


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## mantisman 230 (Sep 13, 2015)

They are already at presub by the wingbuds.


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## vulturette (Sep 13, 2015)

mantisman 230 said:


> They are already at presub by the wingbuds.


I'm not so sure about that. They are at least one instar apart. And the pictures I shared are of the smallest one, and the bigger one definitely doesn't have wing buds. Looking at them now, it seems like it's just weird patterning on the small one that is in the area for wing buds.


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## Dracus (Sep 26, 2015)

Well, that's a surprise for sure. The mantis in question is definitely Liturgusa, and the northernmost record to date is Mexico for L. maya.

Given that the recent revision of the genus is hardly usable without very hi-end microscopes, I suggest to send the imago (once they appear; and no photos, but the specimens themselves!) directly to Gavin Svenson at Cleveland Museum of Natural History for correct identification.


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## vulturette (Sep 26, 2015)

Dracus said:


> Well, that's a surprise for sure. The mantis in question is definitely Liturgusa, and the northernmost record to date is Mexico for L. maya.
> 
> Given that the recent revision of the genus is hardly usable without very hi-end microscopes, I suggest to send the imago (once they appear; and no photos, but the specimens themselves!) directly to Gavin Svenson at Cleveland Museum of Natural History for correct identification.


It's not just two of them anymore either, I found ten more when I came back to the same spot, including adults and l1s, and lots of hatched ootheca. They seem to be thriving here. I'll certainly consider it, I'd love to have a definite name for them. They are very enjoyable mantids.


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## mantisman 230 (Sep 26, 2015)

An adult male is needed for ID, however they seem to be doing well for you. I suggest lining the walls with mesh to keep them happy


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## mantiseater (Sep 26, 2015)

Bark is pretty unnecessary if u add lots of mesh


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## mantiseater (Sep 26, 2015)

Double post


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## vulturette (Sep 26, 2015)

mantiseater said:


> Bark is pretty unnecessary if u add lots of mesh





mantisman 230 said:


> An adult male is needed for ID, however they seem to be doing well for you. I suggest lining the walls with mesh to keep them happy


The pictures they are in the collection cups (yummy ice cream containers with mesh lids lol) not their future homes. They have new homes with mesh lids, paper towel up the sides, and bark in the middle and across. The adults are in a split 10 gallon with lots of live lichen bark which they rarely leave, so I'm not too concerned about the sides for them. Went a little overboard, I should post it the enclosures soon.


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## mantisman 230 (Sep 26, 2015)

With a sensitive species, overboard is just right


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## Brunneria (Sep 27, 2015)

Awesome species! Hope you can get it established in the hobby!


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## Hisserdude (Dec 2, 2015)

Any updates on these interesting mantids?


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## vulturette (Dec 5, 2015)

Hisserdude said:


> Any updates on these interesting mantids?


I've updated the other thread I have on them more than this one if you want to read more.Every single one of them died. The one that lived the longest lived from the beginning of September (when I caught it, not when it was born) to the end of November. All of them looked lively and promising, until one day they would stop moving a lot and rest on the bottom of the container until they die. I had two dozen of them at various instars, all die like this. I even had a wild caught female lay an ooth, and it hatched. Every single one of the nymphs died after a week, after refusing to eat anything I put in with them. This species is HARD, way above my husbandry skills, and anyone else who has tried them so far (maybe like... two people). So I don't think they would make it to culture sadly. If the deaths didn't bother me, Id catch many more and try many different methods of raising them until I find their proper environment requirements. But it does bother me, so I won't. They are very interesting mantises to watch, but unless someone else wants to catch a bunch and get their hands dirty they might just stay a wild mantis.

TL;DR: They are hard to raise. All died. Too heartbroken to try again.


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## Hisserdude (Dec 5, 2015)

Awww, that sucks, sorry to hear that.  Thanks for answering!


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## mantiseater (Dec 6, 2015)

awww im sad to hear this. I remember 2 years ago finding one at the nature center. I originally thought it was mantioda maya l1. Its exciting that it could possibly be a new species. I still have the nymph you sent me and she is eating well. She is presub adult now. Hopefully I can get her to adult and laying. They are very difficult i had two nymphs from peru left and they randomly dropped dead yesterday at l3 or l4.


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