# Help! What is my mated girl oozing?



## Deacon (Sep 18, 2015)

Mated my first mantis, T. sinensis, a week ago and she immediately started oozing this greenish blob! And what is the whitish oval toward the bottom of the blob? I don't know if it has hardened and will prevent her from laying an ooth. I guess I could try to touch it. Anyone know what is going on?


----------



## Ranitomeya (Sep 19, 2015)

It looks like she's prolapsed.


----------



## Deacon (Sep 19, 2015)

Thank you for your reply. If that is what's happened, it doesn't bode well for her laying an ooth, right? Have you heard of or seen this happen before? And where's a mantis OB-Gyn when you need one!

She's still eating well but I'm wondering if this will mean an early demise for her...


----------



## hibiscusmile (Sep 19, 2015)

Looks to me like the sperm sack just leaking out.???


----------



## mantisman 230 (Sep 19, 2015)

Spermataphores are ejected within the first 24-48 hours after mating though?


----------



## Deacon (Sep 19, 2015)

Thank you all for your replies. I guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens in the next couple of weeks. The glob has not grown in the last couple of days anyway.


----------



## Krissim Klaw (Sep 20, 2015)

This actually looks similar to what happened to one of my adult males. Intially I thought something was oozing out but on closer inspection discovered it was part of his insides pursing out. Surprisingly he lived a realtively normal life. He was able to pass waste and died at a nice ripe old age. I'm not sure how a female would fair considering they also lay ootheca.


----------



## Mantis Man13 (Sep 20, 2015)

Man this is horrible :blink: . So how are the inside genitals of a mantis coming out of the body anyway?


----------



## Ranitomeya (Sep 20, 2015)

You can think of an insect or any organism that doesn't have a blind gut as a water wiggler toy. The inside is kept from slipping out by muscles, but sometimes those muscles fail and a prolapse occurs.


----------



## Mantis Man13 (Sep 20, 2015)

Kind of disgusting the way you put it lol but I get the idea now thx. XD


----------



## Ranitomeya (Sep 20, 2015)

Yeah, it can be a bit strange to think of us and most other organisms as something that could be slipped inside out if it weren't for skeletons, hardened exoskeletons, and specialized muscles.


----------



## Deacon (Sep 21, 2015)

Is there any hope she will lay an ootheca? Her sweet personality has changed since mating eleven days ago. Now she's grabbing, pinching, nervous and not eating as well. Today for the first time ever she showed me her threat display! She is passing frass. Maybe she is in pain?


----------



## Ranitomeya (Sep 22, 2015)

She is most likely in pain or in some discomfort at having some of the sensitive inner part of the body protruding out where it's exposed to stimuli.

In most insects the anus and gonopore, the opening through which eggs are laid, are separate. If we're looking at a prolapsed anus, she may still be capable of laying an ootheca. If we're looking at the gonopore, it's possible she will not be able to properly lay an ootheca. Judging by the position of the prolapse, I believe we're most likely looking at an anal prolapse. The gonopore should be below the anus in female insects.


----------



## Deacon (Sep 22, 2015)

You are very bug smart and I really appreciate what you've told me. ( I had tried to find a diagram with some details about her body parts---guess I needed a class in entomology.) The prolapse is definitely on top. Her frass is about half the size as before. It also explains why my grandson said she was "pooping out the blob." So, the gonopore (thanks for that term  ) is under that little flap at the very end of the abdomen---quite the opposite that I had imagined.

Oh my, I just looked back through the photos I took right before and during the mating. Her anus had already started to prolapse *before* they even mated---one little green bubble and the white spot shows when they were still a foot apart. Then another photo during the mating shows three little bubbles. At the time, I thought it was spermatophore that he dropped on her back before connecting! What did I know? In the days following, it grew to what the original photo above shows. Oh, poor girl.

Again, I sincerely thank you for *all* your help and information and for giving me a quick mantis 101 course! I'm getting smarter but I'm still at a loss as to what to do. Is it cruel to keep her and hope she lays an ootheca?


----------



## Deacon (Oct 14, 2015)

As an update, my poor little "turkey" was dead this morning. Her anus turned black this week and she never laid an ooth.


----------



## mantisman 230 (Oct 14, 2015)

Hmm, dried out it seems, had this type of prolapse occur with my male Rhombodera valida, he died within a week.


----------



## Ranitomeya (Oct 14, 2015)

When hemolymph oxidizes, it turns black.
The prolapse must have either gotten damaged or the thin inner exoskeletal lining started drying out and cracking, allowing the hemolymph to oxidize in contact with air.


----------



## MantidBro (Oct 14, 2015)

Deacon said:


> As an update, my poor little "turkey" was dead this morning. Her anus turned black this week and she never laid an ooth.


Sorry for your loss


----------



## Deacon (Oct 19, 2015)

Mantisman 230, Sorry you went through this also. My girl made it almost a month but not long enough---can't figure out what to do with her so she's still in the freezer...  My male is now fourteen weeks old and not doing so hot anymore so maybe I'll wait and bury them together since they spent all their lives ogling each other from the corners of their cages.

Ranitomeya, thank you. Obviously there was nothing I could do but I'll always wonder if it happened because she was too fat. She had a difficult up-bringing, hatching in a cool classroom with no humidity, water source, or food for her first two weeks, except for every one of her siblings, which she consumed. My grandson insisted I rescue her because she was the only one left and "Nana, you have to do something!" So learning about mantids has consumed me since Memorial weekend when I brought her home. Still learning...

MantifBro, thank you. She was a very sweet girl.


----------



## Ranitomeya (Oct 19, 2015)

It's unfortunate, but sometimes these things just happen.
Like humans, mantises and other organisms can end up with health problems and there was unfortunately nothing you could have done to save her once she had her prolapse. It may have been a result of her poor start, but it's just as likely it was just something that ended up happening for no particular reason.


----------



## Krissim Klaw (Oct 22, 2015)

I'm sorry for your loss.

Looking at some of the other experiences people have had, it seems I might have been very lucky with my boy who had this happen yet still managed to live a long life.. I wouldn't beat yourself up about this. Considering two of us have had this happen with male mantises that don't get heavy like females, I don't think weight was the issue.


----------



## Deacon (Oct 22, 2015)

Ranitomeya, I always enjoy your answers (to everyone, not just me.) I just have to ask...are you an entomologist? It seems I'm always getting educated because I have to look up your technically correct terms. Keep it up :smarty:


----------



## Sticky (Oct 22, 2015)

You could bury her somewhere. I put mine in my garden or in the soild of the mantis's favorite potted plant.


----------



## Ranitomeya (Oct 23, 2015)

I majored in zoology at SFSU for my undergrad where I took and thoroughly enjoyed a general entomology course, but I am by no means anywhere near an expert on any of the subjects I learned. I frequently forget terms and concepts and end up having to look them up on the internet or a textbook, but it helps having some basic knowledge on the topic as a starting point for my search.


----------



## Deacon (Jan 27, 2016)

OMG! I thought my Hierodula female, 32 days old and quite heavy, was going to lay an ooth today as she was really checking out her branches. Nope. Instead I returned tonight to see that she has the beginnings of a prolapsed anus! I won't feed her for a few days and hope it will retract and I will mist her a few times a day but at what point do I worry about her getting egg bound? (She is not mated as my male just had his final molt 2 days ago.) If she is egg bound, will trying to lay an ooth make her anus worse? Is it as hard laying eggs as it is to have a baby---I sure hope not! Would a warm sits bath help?

I just can't believe this is happening to another beautiful girl! (Two days ago my Budwing layed a huge infertile ooth and is starting to fatten up again---no problems.)

Are prolapsed anuses really that common? I'm two for three at the moment with three more adult females gearing up. I don't know how to prevent this from happening. I guess I don't know the difference between fat or full of eggs!


----------



## Ranitomeya (Jan 27, 2016)

No, trying to lay eggs will not make a prolapsed anus worse since they do not share the same plumbing.

Prolapses shouldn't be common, and I'm not sure what would cause it in insects. It may be diet-related, but that's just a guess. I personally have not seen prolapses in mantises in my collection.


----------



## Deacon (Jan 27, 2016)

Thanks, Ranitomeya,

Jasmine's diet is varied eating mostly BB flies with crickets, waxworms, mealworms and dubia roaches switched in. She is a good eater.

Yeah, I now recognize the basic body parts, thanks. I just thought if they have to push out the eggs, it would also expel more of the anus. Maybe there is no pushing involved? So far she has passed three large frass today (she has always had larger-than-life frass) and still only two little bubbles of anus are out. Earlier this morning, I thought it had gone back inside but as soon as she moved--she was looking for food as always--it reappeared and still out tonight.

About possibly being egg bound, I read on the forum that someone put their mantis in a warm bath (was it Gizmo?) and within a few days she layed an ooth. I wonder if it was just a coincidence or if it would help?

For such a big girl, Jasmine is so beautiful and sweet and always fun to have out. I hope it doesn't worsen.

Shocking news --- I found my male ghost, Casper, on his back and very dead at the age of 41 days this afternoon! All I can figure out is when I opened his container yesterday, he burst out and did a lot of fluttering and bouncing all over the stuff on my table and maybe he hurt himself. He did eat a mealworm after his adventures and was calm when I put him in the container. A puzzle.


----------



## Ranitomeya (Jan 28, 2016)

It's not as much the pushing that causes prolapse, and more the weakening of the muscles keeping everything inside. Most insects are more likely to burst from the side of the abdomen than end up with a prolapse if you tried squeezing them.

There's a chance that you're very unlucky and just happened to get two mantises that had a genetic disposition towards health problems such as prolapses.


----------



## Deacon (Jan 28, 2016)

For sure I will not be pressing her abdomen! Yuk!

About the timing for laying an ooth, my unmated Budwing did at 30 days. Is this about typical? Do unmated females (in this case Hierodula) wait as long as they can hoping for a mating before laying? Does the length of time vary by species?

I just have so many questions about what to do that is best for her.

Meanwhile, I'm giving honey and water but no food (two days) to lighten her abdomen load a bit. She looks the same today and passing more frass but I guess the anus is staying out.


----------



## PlayingMantis (Jan 30, 2016)

In the past, I've had two male Rhombodera stalii get severe prolapse. Their internal organs suddenly came out, like a big green glob, similar to the picture in the first post. And one of them somehow damaged one of their prolapsed organs, and it started leaking tons of green blood. The males did survive for another month or so, the prolapsed organs started moving back inside. I was pretty surprised - I didn't do anything specific, and honestly wasn't expecting them to live for more than a few days, given the severity of their symptoms. I'd say, to date, it's still the most disturbing thing I've ever witnessed while raising mantises.

Deacon, I have noticed that unmated females would delay laying ooths as long as they could. Last years, I ran out of males, but I had one remaining Hierodula female. She took a very long time to lay her first ooth, I think it was almost 1.5 months, or almost 2 months. But I've had other unmated females readily lay ooths, usually the smaller species that like to lay ooths frequently.


----------



## Deacon (Jan 30, 2016)

PlayingMantis,

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I'm sorry you had to go through it, too! And yours were males, so like Ranitomeya says, it's unrelated to being heavy with eggs. But, were your males heavy? I just feel guilty that in my ignorance, I let my girls maybe get too fat (when I thought they were getting ready for ooth laying). Everything I've read says feed them and they'll lay bigger, better ooths!

My Hierodula's anus seems to be holding at two tiny bubbles and she is passing frass. I am feeding her flies now--no dubias. At 36 days, she and the six day-old male are just gawking at each other from their containers. I'm giving him another week to mature, let them be mantids, and hope for the best for her.

Aside from them, I also have Double Shields (she is only 10 days-old but he is a month old and literally clawing at his container to try to get to her!) She must be airing pheromones already considering his interest.

My Budwing female is fattening up again after her huge infertile ooth. I do have a teeny male---they are both 38 days-old--- but I'm not seeing any interest from either of them. I see mating them as the death of him.

The Chinese mantids (first post) were my first mantids and although I mated them, they both died before any ooth was laid. She made it a month before her anus turned black and died and he passed two weeks later. So, I have very little experience with mating mantids. I just know that my bug room must be heavy with pheromones right now and I'm glad I can't smell them!

What's your experience with mating mantids? I don't want the ooths as I'd rather buy nymphs from someone who want to hatch them but at the same time I'm thinking I should allow the mantids to go through a natural life cycle... Thoughts? Opinions?


----------



## PlayingMantis (Feb 3, 2016)

Deacon said:


> PlayingMantis,
> 
> Thank you for sharing your experiences. I'm sorry you had to go through it, too! And yours were males, so like Ranitomeya says, it's unrelated to being heavy with eggs. But, were your males heavy? I just feel guilty that in my ignorance, I let my girls maybe get too fat (when I thought they were getting ready for ooth laying). Everything I've read says feed them and they'll lay bigger, better ooths!
> 
> ...


Deacon,

No problem! My male rhombos were kept full, but not overly full. I fatten my girls up a lot, and sometimes I fear they'd eat too much!

Sorry to hear about your hierodula. I hope she is still able to be mated, and eat normally.

I didn't have any luck with double shields until the females were 4 weeks ago, but you could try at 3 weeks. They are really agressive, so be careful.

You could try mating the budwings, but be sure to keep a close eye on them. Sometimes it helps to raise the temperature by a couple of degrees, and/or to use a fan and blow air on them, to coax them "into the mood."

And about your Chinese mantises - I had the exact same issue with Rhombo stalli early last year. The mated female stopped exuding a nasty black substance from her butt and she eventually started turning black so I had to freeze her.  

Well, I mean, mating mantises depends partly on luck, partly on skill (reading the mantis' body language, creating the best mating environment, etc). Honestly, I feel sometimes it's more due to luck! I have trouble mating ghosts, or rather, getting mated ghosts to lay fertile ooths, and to this day, I still haven't successfully bred ghosts. But with violins - which are supposed to be a tricky mantis - I placed the male with the female, forgot to place them outside, where it was warm (close to 95 degrees at the time), and came home to find that the pair had connected at 80F room temp. And with orchids, I've had females refuse to be mated, mated females that got eggbound, mated females that laid ooths but the ooths turned out infertile. Luckily, I had 8 mated orchid females and 3 laid fertile, hatching ooths. I gave them all the same care. I guess that boils down to luck.

So just try your best, don't be discouraged. And it helps to have multiple pairs, and more males than females - if something goes wrong, you have additional pairs as backup.


----------



## Deacon (Feb 21, 2016)

Here is an update on what was Jasmine's tiny anus prolapse. Today it got huge by comparison.  I'm not even sure it is the anus or if it is something beyond it.  All I know is I have the ziploc ready.  Right now she seems unaffected but it looks terrible!











Photo is terrible, but I think you get the picture...Poor girl!


----------



## Deacon (Feb 22, 2016)

PlayingMantis,

Of my mantid pairings, the Budwing has already layed two inf. ooths and she is fattening up again but her male has never shown an interest.  The Hierodula now has this giant prolapse and her male has ignored her anyway---he just wants in the Popa spurca tank!  The Dbl shield male was finally crowding the separating partition and she layed an infertile ooth a few hours ago.  I have two pairs of Popa Spurca in a tank and if they should hook up and lay a fertile ooth (and I find it) I won't hatch it.  That leaves my Sphodromantids who will possibly molt to adult within a week.  

I have to say it was a pleasure of watching my Dbl shield lay a huge infertile ooth today (33 days-old).  That is an impressive project, sight-unseen!  I'm only about nine months into mantids and I don't feel I'm ready for hatching fertile ooths.  There are too many requirements, like humidity and heat---can't provide that heat.  So, my 13 mantids will probably die as spinsters and bachelors this go round.

My Hierodula, Jasmine, is the same today.  I plan on watching her for a few days to see how soon this will affect her.  So far, she seems to love being in the plant and appears oblivious that her insides are outside (I wonder what kind of nervous system they have and if they actually feel pain.) Such a sweetheart.


----------



## Kermit (Feb 24, 2016)

I had this happen to a male budwing... Blue-green goo. Prevented him from mating. Died prematurely. Not sure what causes this but after much research I found it does not typically lead to a good outcome. Sorry for your troubles


----------



## Deacon (Feb 24, 2016)

Kermit, I am prepared for the  worst.  Jasmine is still holding her own but I think her outside/insides look smaller, probably starting to dry out.  

Playingmantis, what does a egg-bound mantis look like?  Does she go from round and full to something else? I ask because Jasmine is still very full but looking sort of lumpy at 61 days-old.   Even if she lives on for a while, I wouldn't breed her because I think mating a physically defective mantid would be dumb on my part.  I would have loved to pass on her sweet disposition though!

Update:2/25 Day 62---Big change overnite: Jasmine's strength was gone this morning so I said goodbye :angel:


----------



## Sticky (Feb 26, 2016)

Sadness! Im sorry she is gone. 

I just have to ask, first is there any way to push the prolapse back in a two, would putting baby oil or vaseline on it help to keep it from drying out?


----------



## Deacon (Feb 26, 2016)

Sticky,

Wow!  I never thought of doing either of those things.  Maybe the Vaseline would have helped if she would have let me.  When the prolapse was very small it might have worked.  Of all the threads on prolapsed anuses, no one ever said they tried pushing them back inside  Ranitomeya said it was a weakened area that just fails so maybe it would have just fallen out again...especially if it was slick with lubrication.  If it went back in, I wonder about infection.  

I've now had two females full of eggs have this and succumb to it.  If I get another mantis with this problem (since I know it kills them anyway) I think I would try putting the lubricant on my finger tip and pushing on the protrusion.  However, I'm hoping I never see another one!


----------



## Deacon (Mar 4, 2016)

OMG!  I hoped I'd never have another post here!  My 72 day-old Budwing  who has layed two infertile ooths is beginning an anal prolapse.  She seems to be fattening up for another ooth I thought. A few days ago I had moved her to a different section of my aquarium set-ups so she wouldn't be way down at the end.  I transferred her "ooth" stick with her but she just never settled down so after three days, I moved her to her original chamber. Had her out today to visit and there were the tiny green bubbles encircling the anus. :huh:  Maybe I stressed her with the move 'cause she was doing really well until then.

Sticky suggested maybe trying to push the prolapse back in with a bit of Vaseline.  Anybody ever tried this?  Would it lead to infection if it did go in or simply slide back out 'cause it would be slick and the reason it fell out is still there?

Wonder too if I caused it because I flicked a moistened bit of ooth material off her fanny after her first ooth?  I'm not touching my Dbl Shield who still has a ring of ooth stuff eleven days after laying her ooth!  I'm just so bummed!


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 4, 2016)

Very strange, once or twice perhaps random, more than that I have to wonder. I'll admit I have never had the issue with any mantids I've had, so I'm not sure what the cause could be.

Also vaseline is a petroleum product, and it's hard to say what the chemicals may do to a insect especially their exposed organs (perhaps nothing, but I'd think twice as it would likely eat/clean some of it off itself). I've heard of honey being used on openings/cuts, but honey does crystallize so I am not sure of it either. I personally would aloe vera, squeezed from fat leaf (we keep the plants). I do agree keeping it moist is a great idea.

Pushing the prolapsed anus/organs/internal walls/whatever inside sound good, but I would worry about further damage (such as piercing something in the process (as it is so small and thin, or twisting it internally - which would lead to their death).

Not much to go on, but I would keep it moist and if the mantid weakens or gets worse, trying to push the prolapse back inside would be worth trying (as it wouldn't hurt much if something happened anyway).

Best of luck, and sorry to hear your having trouble with your pets Nancy. Sadly when they get sick there is little we can do.


----------



## Deacon (Mar 5, 2016)

Yeah, my first two females with prolapses had their lives quite shortened; Hierodula was 62 days (no ooth) enduring two weeks with horrible prolapse; Tenodera was about nine weeks old, no ooth, with one month in prolapse.  My Budwing's prolapse is still very minor as they go. She was 70 days-old when it prolapsed five days ago (she has layed two infertile ooths). 

 I will get an Aloe vera plant today. That's a good one to have in any event    It does sound like the mildest topical I could try.  Thanks for the idea on that. Her green bubbles are very tiny at this point so I'm not touching it.

I'm wondering if it could be dehydration...I'm aware I don't actually offer them drinks regularly now that they are done molting although their enclosures are lightly misted daily and I see them licking moisture off their arms.  As nymphs, I gave them honey and water daily. Wouldn't hurt to get back into that action with all of them.  Don't know why I stopped.  I have four other adult females that are fine so far, KOW.


----------



## Krissim Klaw (Mar 5, 2016)

It is strange you are running into this issue so routinely. What does your feeding schedule look like for your girls as far as frequency and amount of food?


----------



## Deacon (Mar 6, 2016)

Krissim Klaw,

Typically, I usually get to my mantids about 8 AM to uncover their aquariums and turn on the white lights (heat lamps are on all night) , mist lightly, then get back to feed mid-morning.  Every other day, I give BB flies to everyone (some eat them, others don't (mainly the boys but sometimes one of the girls don't eat either, usually the Ghost).  So, the next day ,when I open their lids, all the uneaten flies head into the skylight above my table and then I'll offer a variety, like superworms, crickets, dubia, wax worms.  If someone doesn't grab the first thing, I'll offer one other thing, usually samaller in size.  If they are really batting or backing away, I leave them alone until the next day.  I don't get everyone out every day as there is only time to do face-to-face with about three of 'em.  Night temp drops to 72-73 and day time is like 77-78.

Her prolapse is growing (still at the bubble stage) and I did try Aloe Vera tonight as CosbyArt suggested.  She came out tonight (too busy a day so I got to them really late) and she consumed half a large superworm while I held it.  She has been off her food the last few days and 20 days since she layed the second ooth.

I got all fourteen mantids to adult this time and was so happy.  Not so happy now.  Others on the forum have had males prolapse but with me it's just been females.  I have five other healthy females at the moment.  I just don't know why this is happening.


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 6, 2016)

I did some digging into cause of a prolapse in humans at least, as there is of course not much medical data for insects (and less for a specific species, such as mantids, and then specific concerns such as a prolapse). Here are the most common reasons for it in humans...


Advanced age

Long-term constipation

Long-term diarrhea

Long-term straining during defecation

Pregnancy and the stresses of childbirth

Previous surgery

Cystic fibrosis

Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease

Whooping cough

Multiple sclerosis

Paralysis (Paraplegia)

Sources for that is available from the Mayo Clinic, and a another health site here.

As you can see some of them could easily apply to mantids, and some will not. That said it appears the most likely cause for a mantid would be related to their feeding (with secondary causes such as their age (as an adult means their lifespan is more than half/or more over) and their breeding/laying ooths). Looking at it that way it means that the mantids have likely been feed too much, and as the Budwing aged and started laying infertile ooths the prolapse took place.

A easy indicator to test this would be for you to take photos of your mantids from the sides so it would let us clearly see their abdomens. In the photos list their sex male/female and when they laid their last ootheca. Sadly, it seems the likely cause is overfeeding. If it is, however, that will be a easy fix to prevent further problems and more prolapses.


----------



## Deacon (Mar 6, 2016)

And yet, everyone on the forum says it is unlikely that a mantid will over-eat (other than the Popas which I only offer food every other day) and you have said you give your females six BB flies a day when they are at the ooth-laying stage.Freda doesn't eat that much.  If I drop too many flies in her section, they just fly out the next morning when I open her lid.

The Budwing is a tubby right now as she is 21 days since her second ooth (which was layed 22 days after her first one).  Post ooth, she has gotten almost skinny and acts exhausted for a few days.  Plus, she lays these huge ooths that she can hardly stand over!  I find it difficult to judge fat versus full of eggs and ooth-building matter. She hasn't eaten much for the last week, little pieces of superworms, an occasional fly---nothing big like a cricket or dubia and I haven't tried to force her to eat.  If she bats her arms at me, I leave her alone. Yet she is burgeoning right now.  It must be the up-coming ooth, wouldn't you think?

Even the female Ghost, who is 65 days-old (mate keeled over one night) and has not layed an ooth, hardly eats, yet she is getting more rotund by the day.  They just look "pregnant" to me!

Here she is after her last ooth. And today, pre-ooth and with prolapse.


----------



## Krissim Klaw (Mar 6, 2016)

I will say in that last photo she looks pretty huge to me. I however am not going to be the best judge. I am guessing I feed my adult females lighter than 99% of the people that frequent this board, so it would be interesting to hear from other heavy feeders if they ever run into this problem. Since I'm not concerned about oothecae size I don't mind smaller more infrequent oothecae if it means my girls have an easier time getting around. I almost never hit the point where my females get so full they will turn down food.

As I mentioned before, I've only seen this problem once and it was on a male who otherwise lived a normal life even with the issue. Up until this thread I had never heard of anyone else having the same issue.


----------



## Deacon (Mar 7, 2016)

I suppose I could treat all of them like the Popas and only offer food every other day and only give honey and water on the non food day. The Budwing, with her little short wings does look huge---she is heavy in my hand.  I hope she lays an ooth soon and I'll try a different feeding schedule. ( But, like I said, the Ghost is barely eating and yet she fattens daily now.)

On top of everything else, Freda actually fell this morning while I was watching her.  She was trying to move from the mesh lid to her big ooth sticks and took a full 12"  belly flop onto the thick coco fiber base.  It is fairly deep and fluffy so she really had to struggle trying to get back on her legs.  I finally gave her a hand.  She seems fine tonight.

So, what kind of feeding routine do you have for your adult females, if I could ask?


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 7, 2016)

Deacon said:


> And yet, everyone on the forum says it is unlikely that a mantid will over-eat (other than the Popas which I only offer food every other day) and you have said you give your females six BB flies a day when they are at the ooth-laying stage.Freda doesn't eat that much.  If I drop too many flies in her section, they just fly out the next morning when I open her lid.
> 
> The Budwing is a tubby right now as she is 21 days since her second ooth (which was layed 22 days after her first one).  Post ooth, she has gotten almost skinny and acts exhausted for a few days.  Plus, she lays these huge ooths that she can hardly stand over!  I find it difficult to judge fat versus full of eggs and ooth-building matter. She hasn't eaten much for the last week, little pieces of superworms, an occasional fly---nothing big like a cricket or dubia and I haven't tried to force her to eat.  If she bats her arms at me, I leave her alone. Yet she is burgeoning right now.  It must be the up-coming ooth, wouldn't you think?
> 
> ...


I put together a pictorial diagram of mantids based on their feeder intake (took awhile to find the photos and I drew it as well for clarification). The photo of my gravid Stagmomantis carolina in that image laid her ooth later that day when the photo was taken, and as you can see she was nowhere near as large or round as yours (and she was my largest in girth).

Perhaps they are not eating many flies as they are unable to catch them as they are so large? I tend to fed my mantids every couple of days anymore, and they receive two medium crickets (1/2" to 3/4"). In the warmer months I do feed them bottle flies; however, they are only fed those flies and then typically 2-3 days pass before I feed them anything else. More than time I go by their abdomen girth to ensure each is receiving the proper amount of food.

I can tell you love your pets, and I mean no disrespect; however, if your mantids are that round (ooth or not) they are fed too much. You should cut down their amount of feeders, or how often they are fed.

The forum resized the image really small - for a full-size/print version view it here.

View attachment 7102


----------



## Krissim Klaw (Mar 7, 2016)

On average I only feed adult females every other day. Sometimes I might feed sooner or wait longer though depending on what they have eaten recently. Generally even when offering them smaller prey I don't double up on prey items in one sitting. I rather feed more often then have them engorge themselves in one sitting as their body can only process so much food at once anyways. They do still put on weight but it tends to be more gradual and even at their heaviest less extreme.


----------



## Deacon (Mar 7, 2016)

Thomas and Krissim Klaw,

Many thanks!  Thomas, the diagrams and photos have helped me immensely (they have the same pictures at the vet showing cat and dog bodies in varies degrees of starving to obese).  These are excellent and I really appreciate the time you took to set them in front of me.   I'm going to try printing it so it is in my face on a daily basis! 

I am definitely going to stop the daily feedings!  Why have I been working so hard?   Apparently, mantids will over-eat!

I just noticed that the Budwing doesn't have that side slit but most of the other girls do.  My boys are skinny.

Again, thanks so much, both of you! I really appreciate your help 'cause it is deflating to have this happening.

Nancy


----------



## Deacon (Mar 7, 2016)

Thomas, I guess I should have asked if I could print off your diagram since you did ALL the work?  Do you mind?

I do have a question.  Looking at my Freda in her post-ooth photo, by your diagram, she is still plump then? She has not stopped wandering for the last two hours---I hope she's looking for an ooth spot.  Her first one was in the lid of her plastic container.  The second one in the aquarium was on this double twisted stick.  She's been on it twice and left it---I think I rotated it wrong from last time so I need to find a photo.

Anyway, it is a wonderful thing that you did for me (and anyone else should they need it).  It's great having you back.  Missed you!

Nancy


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 7, 2016)

If anyone has any ideas or suggestions for the pictorial chart I made let me know. I'm open to suggestion.  



Deacon said:


> Deacon said:
> 
> 
> > Thomas, I guess I should have asked if I could print off your diagram since you did ALL the work?  Do you mind?
> ...


Indeed feel free to do whatever you want with it (share, print, etc.) Nancy.  It seems the forum update allows photos to be added now, but really shrinks them too, even if clicked. To view the full-size image to print view the image here (it will fill a page).

Freda is plump but within range. If that is her fresh ooth, lighter feedings will help as with an ooth inside her, she is likely much too large. The other photo of the one sitting on the paper towel roll though is obese, even if she has a ooth inside, I'd limit her feedings to get her back to a manageable weight.

Glad to see it was of help, it seemed easier to try to put something like that together than trying to explain it. I did the typical Chinese/Griffin/Carolina/etc abdomen as it is the most common; however, other species such as Ghosts and several others are vastly different (and do not have the slit that can expand either in their abdomen). In those cases you still go by the abdomen roundness, but it tends to gather typically in the middle only or such (those I keep fed so they have a round bump in the middle).

Yeah some mantids will eat till they nearly pop, and many species will easily overeat - especially the females. They seem to be like canines in that regard, if there is always food available they will continuously eat. It must be evolution in that regard, as they are use to having to find and capture limited prey. In captivity they are not as active (searching/foraging/flying) to find prey, and can have much more prey available.

Males tend to run skinny, especially as adults. Some will only eat once a week even, this seems to be ensure they can fly easily to find a mate, and are preoccupied in breeding. I feed them just like the females each time, although lighter, that way they will eat if they are hungry (and if not I haven't wasted the feeders, or have to worry about feeders annoying or injuring my males).

I try to keep my mantids on the the plump side, but not overly fat. That way it doesn't affect their health and I do not have to worry about a missed feeding. As Krissim Klaw said it is best to feed them less, but more often. In that regard feeding them every other day, or a light meal daily will help. Most keepers do tend to feed them every other day I've noticed.

I hope this helps, and solves the prolapse issue for you from happening in future mantids (and should help relieve the strain on any with a prolapse currently). Best of luck.


----------



## Deacon (Mar 8, 2016)

Thomas, I guess I should have asked if I could print off your diagram since you did ALL the work?  Do you mind?

I do have a question.  Looking at my Freda in her post-ooth photo, by your diagram, she is still plump then? She has not stopped wandering for the last two hours---I hope she's looking for an ooth spot.  Her first one was in the lid of her plastic container.  The second one in the aquarium was on this double twisted stick.  She's been on it twice and left it---I think I rotated it wrong from last time so I need to find a photo.

Anyway, it is a wonderful thing that you did for me (and anyone else should they need it).  It's great having you back.  Missed you!

Nancy

Edit:  Ah ha!  She is about half done with her third ooth this morning! I'm happy her prolapse did not prevent her from getting that mass out.


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 8, 2016)

Not sure how/why there is a exact reposted message, but I already answer it right above.


----------



## Deacon (Mar 8, 2016)

Thomas, for some reason I am having problems getting into the right spot this morning.  Like yesterdays's post was still in front of me in the works, yet already posted, too.  Now it seems to be setting up correctly.  I'm sure I must have done/not done something right. :huh: 

Anyway, Freda is slimming down by the minute and I'll try my best to keep her that way  

Again, thank you!


----------



## Deacon (Mar 8, 2016)

Post #3 ooth.  Still over-weight? And covered with ooth matter. Oh and I see that she actually does have the side rib thingy now that she is not so expanded!!!


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 8, 2016)

Alright, I was just curious as to what happened there earlier.  

Going by her segment definition and roundness I would place her in the stage between plump and gravid. In that regard she isn't bad, just watch her feeder amount. By the way that is an impressive ootheca size from her.


----------



## Deacon (Mar 8, 2016)

All three have been like this one.  Maybe that's why she get so dang big?


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 9, 2016)

Deacon said:


> All three have been like this one.  Maybe that's why she get so dang big?


Perhaps that would explain the one female, but I'm doubtful. It does however, explain the huge ooths. Perhaps her enormous size relates to the enormous ooths, but at a cost of her health. I do know everyone likes to keep gravid girls fed well.


----------



## Deacon (Mar 11, 2016)

Yeah, well my mantids are pawing at the front glass saying, "Feed me!"  I'm trying not to look at them


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 12, 2016)

Deacon said:


> Yeah, well my mantids are pawing at the front glass saying, "Feed me!"  I'm trying not to look at them


Just give them a mist of water, by now though as it's a new day (and fed nothing yesterday) you can fed them


----------



## Deacon (Mar 19, 2016)

Freda still has that big clump of ooth matter on her and I don't see how she can pass frass.  I can no longer see her prolapse but it looks like on of her cerci has blackened.  And, hardly eating (on purpose), she is fattening up again.  Otherwise, she is active.  Can't be good, I wouldn't think...


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 19, 2016)

Deacon said:


> Freda still has that big clump of ooth matter on her and I don't see how she can pass frass.  I can no longer see her prolapse but it looks like on of her cerci has blackened.  And, hardly eating (on purpose), she is fattening up again.  Otherwise, she is active.  Can't be good, I wouldn't think...


The darkened cerci does sound alarming. Not sure why she has ooth material still stuck to her, as she should have already cleaned it off herself. You may want to try misting the stuck ooth material and see if you can very delicately help her remove it, or break it up a bit. I'll be honest I haven't had a female with stuck ooth material on them before, perhaps it has something to do with the prolapse.


----------



## Deacon (Mar 30, 2016)

Thomas, sorry for the delay in responding (mom in hospital and now nursing home and taking all my time) but I can give you an update.  I did wet her rump down.  Finally noticed her trying to kick it off and gave her a gentle hand.  Did not note any green prolapse but the next day she had a bubble on one side.  The one cerci remains black---other one is normal-looking---and yesterday, she layed her fourth ooth which is the same as her others but 1/3" smaller (and she wasn't bloated as feeding her less.) So she layed her first ooth at 30 days and the others spaced at 22, 23, and 20 days between.  Today, she has two large blobs of ooth stuck on her and eating BB's.  Sturdy girl despite her afflictions!


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 30, 2016)

Deacon said:


> Thomas, sorry for the delay in responding (mom in hospital and now nursing home and taking all my time) but I can give you an update.  I did wet her rump down.  Finally noticed her trying to kick it off and gave her a gentle hand.  Did not note any green prolapse but the next day she had a bubble on one side.  The one cerci remains black---other one is normal-looking---and yesterday, she layed her fourth ooth which is the same as her others but 1/3" smaller (and she wasn't bloated as feeding her less.) So she layed her first ooth at 30 days and the others spaced at 22, 23, and 20 days between.  Today, she has two large blobs of ooth stuck on her and eating BB's.  Sturdy girl despite her afflictions!


No worries, I hope all is going as well as can be expected.

Glad to see you mantid girl is pulling through, and sadly it seems the ooth blob/pieces are going to be a normal thing for her. Just wet the stuck material as you did before and delicately help remove it the best you can.

The smaller ooth is likely as it is one of her later ooths (4th one) and they tend to get smaller the more they lay. That said if she is looking good otherwise, there is no problem with a few extra flies every now and then - it might help boost the ooths a bit too.


----------



## jindarose (Apr 5, 2016)

Who knew!????  

I've known humans and dogs with this situation, but this has been very educational.

Amazing.


----------



## Deacon (Apr 13, 2016)

Thomas, I tried wetting her rump but can't dislodge the last of the ooth matter. She is getting gravid again (she and the male are 112 days-old). He's in rough shape as his arms and legs are failing so I gave him a bunch of plastic seaweed plant with more grabbing hooks and he is staying in it. Actually ate part of a waxworm this morning that he wedged into the plant so he didn't have to hold it. He is such a squirt. Have to wait and see if Freda can lay another ooth with so much going wrong with her rump  

Wow, I brushed over something on my laptop and the script changed and I can't get it to go back! I'm hoping it will self-heal when I hit the reply button!

Edit--Yay, it did!


----------



## CosbyArt (Apr 13, 2016)

If you are not having any luck this time, perhaps she isn't affected by it - have you seen her trying to clean it off? If not, I'd just let it be. Sadly many mantids do fall apart as they age, and males are the first to go (usually 1-3 months before the females). If he is eating at least he should be sticking around for awhile yet.  

I hope Freda has no issues with her next ooth, but time will tell. Sorry to see you had such trouble with your current batch of mantids. Hopefully the next generation will go without a hitch for you.


----------



## Deacon (Apr 15, 2016)

Thomas, of the eight remaining mantids, three are in their eighties (days-old) and three are 105 to 114.  My youngest are the Sphodromantids who are 49 and 52 days-old.  She is gravid and still waiting for her first ooth but they stare at each other all the time.  I keep waiting for her to lay her ooth and then I think I will allow them to mate.  I would do it now but from what I've read on the forum, the females don't seem cooperative when they are gravid.  I'd rather not lose him as they are the last pair (well except for the 114 day-old Budwings but they both have problems now so I'd never consider them---eventhough they are very sweet mantids.


----------



## CosbyArt (Apr 15, 2016)

Deacon said:


> Thomas, of the eight remaining mantids, three are in their eighties (days-old) and three are 105 to 114.  My youngest are the Sphodromantids who are 49 and 52 days-old.  She is gravid and still waiting for her first ooth but they stare at each other all the time.  I keep waiting for her to lay her ooth and then I think I will allow them to mate.  I would do it now but from what I've read on the forum, the females don't seem cooperative when they are gravid.  I'd rather not lose him as they are the last pair (well except for the 114 day-old Budwings but they both have problems now so I'd never consider them---eventhough they are very sweet mantids.


I can't speak from experience on trying to breed a gravid female, as I always breed them after 24+ hours after laying a ooth; however, it does make sense that a gravid female would be less responsive to breeding and more defensive while being gravid. That said I have read of some keepers trying to breed right up to the time females lay their ooths.

With just a single male left, and her ooth will most likely be infertile no matter the outcome if you tried now, it would be best to just wait until she lays her current ooth. Better safe than sorry.


----------



## Deacon (Apr 15, 2016)

Thanks for that info, Thomas.

Off topic: I'm having that issue with another post that when I try to reply, it pops up the old post---like that day you said you had already answered my question?  So, I'll give you the answer here:  My Popa spurca, Daisy, layed her first ooth at 34 days and she is now 83 days-old. Aside from that, my Dbl shield layed her first at 33 days, and is now 86 days-old.  So, same routine for them.  My funny little Ghost waited 79 days to lay her first and has now layed three in the last 25 days--the last one yesterday was twice as big as the  first two!  The Budwing layed her first at 30 days, and has produced ooths about every three weeks since then (four total). My Sphodromantis is 49 days old with no ooth yet.  Looks like there is no pattern at all. These are all different species.  Wonder if they were the same species if their laying patterns would be similar to each other?


----------



## CosbyArt (Apr 15, 2016)

Deacon said:


> Thanks for that info, Thomas.
> 
> Off topic: I'm having that issue with another post that when I try to reply, it pops up the old post---like that day you said you had already answered my question?  So, I'll give you the answer here:  My Popa spurca, Daisy, layed her first ooth at 34 days and she is now 83 days-old. Aside from that, my Dbl shield layed her first at 33 days, and is now 86 days-old.  So, same routine for them.  My funny little Ghost waited 79 days to lay her first and has now layed three in the last 25 days--the last one yesterday was twice as big as the  first two!  The Budwing layed her first at 30 days, and has produced ooths about every three weeks since then (four total). My Sphodromantis is 49 days old with no ooth yet.  Looks like there is no pattern at all. These are all different species.  Wonder if they were the same species if their laying patterns would be similar to each other?


Regarding the forum, I have that happen from time to time for me as well. It seems for whatever reason since the v4 update it saves your last response, I assume it is so you can resume a reply if something happens (internet kicks you off, power outage, etc); however, it seems to have a bug as even though a message is sent, it will re-show the reply anyway. I've even had it show some really old ones once in awhile when it happens too.

Like your Ghost, that tends to be how any adult females I had were (Carolina's, Chinese, Ghosts, Egyptian Pygmy, etc.). A bit over a month in as an adult they lay their first ooth, and lay another ooth about every week (7 to 10 days). Then as they grow older it tends to only add a few more days in the time frame between ooths, until they near the end of laying their last ooths then it usually is their longest in time.

Perhaps your girls are just being stubborn, or simply normal for their species as I haven't kept any as adults.

In the dozens of Carolina females, and dozens of Chinese females, about 30 each as adults - those all seem to have a normal schedule, or laying pattern, of making ooths. The Carolina's tend to average 8 days between ooths, and the Chinese average about 11 days between ooths.

The exotics tend to take longer, with my Acromantis japonica however the fastest at 10 days on average between ooths. My current Ghost averages 19 days between ooths (just finished her 4th). My Egyptian pygmy (Miomantis paykullii) was somewhere around 20 days between ooths.


----------



## mantisman 230 (Apr 15, 2016)

Obese can also be a really gravid female though   Had a female like that and she laid an ooth half her size


----------



## CosbyArt (Apr 15, 2016)

mantisman 230 said:


> Obese can also be a really gravid female though   Had a female like that and she laid an ooth half her size


Sure there are exceptions to that, as it is just a basic guideline.  That is kind of the point behind it, adjust it as needed.


----------



## Deacon (Apr 17, 2016)

Well, Freda, Budwing, layed her fifth ooth today.  Considering her anal prolapse, the left-over ooth on her from last time, and the desicated cerci she is doing really well.  Yes, her rump is covered in ooth matter again/still.  Guess this girl just dosen't know how to clean up!  I'm going to wet her today while it is fresh and see if she can kick it off now instead of waiting til it is hardened off.  This last ooth is half the size of her biggest and she looks as skinny as I've ever seen her although according to your beautiful chart she is still "plump" as her side slit is visible.

So, Thomas, I'm glad to know it is not just me who gets stuck in repeating replies.

And, mantisman 230, I do have three obese females who need to lay their ooths.  I feed them much less, but they stay fat!


----------



## mantisman 230 (Apr 17, 2016)

Even in that state, my fuscas ate adult male dubia roaches xD, some species can be "power fed" to speed them up for molting. My subadult griffin female is super fat, but is also starting to thicken her wingbuds. I typically do this for subadults because you feed them once and then they ride out the instar until adult. Without prey items to bother them, they are less stressed close to molting.


----------



## Deacon (Apr 17, 2016)

Mantisman 230,

When my mantids were younger, I never thought about over-feeding.  I mean, they make their own decisions in the wild (granted, they don't have someone bringing them food every day!)  So it wasn't until they became adults (I'm only referring to the females as none of the males have ever gotten fat) that I've had issues with obese mantids with prolapsed anuses (three of eight females). Now I am spooked about allowing the girls too much food---even though they still stay fat on diets.  And the dubias, OMG, they just keep producing and I don't feel like I can feed them to my big girls anymore!  (I need to find someone with about ten adult beardies who can take the roaches off my hands either that or they are going in the freezer!)


----------



## CosbyArt (Apr 17, 2016)

Deacon said:


> Well, Freda, Budwing, layed her fifth ooth today.  Considering her anal prolapse, the left-over ooth on her from last time, and the desicated cerci she is doing really well.  Yes, her rump is covered in ooth matter again/still.  Guess this girl just dosen't know how to clean up!  I'm going to wet her today while it is fresh and see if she can kick it off now instead of waiting til it is hardened off.  This last ooth is half the size of her biggest and she looks as skinny as I've ever seen her although according to your beautiful chart she is still "plump" as her side slit is visible.
> 
> So, Thomas, I'm glad to know it is not just me who gets stuck in repeating replies.
> 
> And, mantisman 230, I do have three obese females who need to lay their ooths.  I feed them much less, but they stay fat!


Glad to her Freda is still doing well and got another ooth laid successfully. You are right on that, before it has a chance to harden would be a good time to try to clean it off. No problem, plump is where you want them to be, and after laying a ooth she is bound to be really hungry.  

Yeah, it is a strange issue with the stuck replies. At least it is easy enough to remove usually by selecting it all and deleting it.



Deacon said:


> Mantisman 230,
> 
> When my mantids were younger, I never thought about over-feeding.  I mean, they make their own decisions in the wild (granted, they don't have someone bringing them food every day!)  So it wasn't until they became adults (I'm only referring to the females as none of the males have ever gotten fat) that I've had issues with obese mantids with prolapsed anuses (three of eight females). Now I am spooked about allowing the girls too much food---even though they still stay fat on diets.  And the dubias, OMG, they just keep producing and I don't feel like I can feed them to my big girls anymore!  (I need to find someone with about ten adult beardies who can take the roaches off my hands either that or they are going in the freezer!)


You may see if your local pet stores are interested in buying your excess Dubias, as many are always looking for a bargain. If nothing else do a store credit, your likely get more, and you can use it to get things you would need anyway. It's always nice if you can make the hobby pay for itself.  

Definitely another reason to switch to cockroaches, as no matter what guide I try or settings for my crickets they don't seem able to keep themselves as a stable colony. Perhaps I can get my wife to agree on keeping a colony outside in the shed, but feeding my mantids would still be a issue.


----------



## Deacon (Jul 22, 2016)

Haven't been here in several months and I thought I should add the final chapter of Freda, the Budwing.  This very sweet little survivor, with her horribly prolapsed anus, went on to lay a total of nine infertile ooths before weakening and passing at 203 days old. She was my longest living mantid and the only one who was quick to show her threat display every day when I offered her insects. 

From my batch of 14 mantids last fall (six species) I am down to one male Sphodromantis (Tanzania) who now has the run of a 10 gallon tank since I removed the interior walls.  "Tanzy" is only 147 days old and quite active so he should be around for a while yet.

But because I am left with an abundance of Dubia roaches, with a lot of help from a grandson, I now have a fast growing Bearded Dragon who takes up any spare time.  So, except for the feeder insects, I am probably out of the bug hobby.  The last fifteen months were much fun and it was really nice to "meet" many interesting people on this forum.  Thanks for all the help---you all made keeping mantids fun.

Nancy


----------

