# Inbreeding questions



## Extrememantid (Oct 25, 2013)

Hey guys!

So Ive been thinking for the last few days about inbreeding... So if I were to buy and hatch a exotic ootheca, I wouldnt be able to breed the nymphs that hatch out? (when they reach adulthood of course).

Or would I be able too? Because I know inbreeding can cause quite a few problems with the next generation. So would I have to buy two different ooths from different parents to breed or what? I'm just confused about this, so if you guys could clear up the subject for me I'd appreciate it!

-Cole


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## Ntsees (Oct 25, 2013)

Like some topics, there are previous posts regarding your question. To answer your question from my experience, the mantids I keep have been purposely inbred for over 10 years with no introduction of new blood. I haven't noticed any deformations yet. But I have no idea how this applies to other mantid species though. Why not just go ahead with the inbreeding of your mantids and let us know your results?


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## Paradoxica (Oct 25, 2013)

There's a very interesting take on this question on UKmantisforum

http://www.ukmantisforums.co.uk/content.php?r=109-Is-Inbreeding-Bad


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## Extrememantid (Oct 25, 2013)

Ntsees said:


> Like some topics, there are previous posts regarding your question. To answer your question from my experience, the mantids I keep have been purposely inbred for over 10 years with no introduction of new blood. I haven't noticed any deformations yet. But I have no idea how this applies to other mantid species though. Why not just go ahead with the inbreeding of your mantids and let us know your results?


Really? No new blood and they are just fine? Well okay then and I searched for this topic and nothing came up so i posted this thread.


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## Extrememantid (Oct 25, 2013)

Paradoxica said:


> There's a very interesting take on this question on UKmantisforum
> 
> http://www.ukmantisforums.co.uk/content.php?r=109-Is-Inbreeding-Bad


Hmm this is a very interesting article to read, thank you for posting that link. I can imagine the only way to not inbreed a species is to buy 4 breeding pairs or more and keep alternating which generations you breed.. The species that I'm going for are sphodromantis sp. And cilnia humeralis so do you guys have an idea how that would turn out. Since those are aggressive species. If in fact males are less attracted to their siblings... Does that mean they won't mate? Resulting in no new generation of the species?


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## psyconiko (Oct 25, 2013)

To me this myth saying that inbreeding mantis is bad comes from people who failed in breeding some species for more than a few générations.They are usually like"oh I believe it was bad blood blablabla....")In fact I never see any real evidence proving it is bad.Like Ntsees wrote,species can be inbred for a very long time without any problem.You should not care about that,and just see by yourself.Good luck with your mantis.


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## Extrememantid (Oct 25, 2013)

Oh okay thanks. So from what I've been told is it's not bad! Sounds good.


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## Gill (Oct 26, 2013)

I would go ahead and try. Mantis breeding is difficult and so you will get good experience with them. 

Most people do buy an ooth and breed siblings and I think for one generation there is no problem, then distribute the offsping and hopefully someone else who has got an ooth at a similar time from you from the same supplier has done the same. For many species there is no problem, espeacially some that have been in culture for many generations. However both the species you have mentioned are not stable in culture and I suspect that the reasons both of those species only last around 4 generations in culture might be genetic.


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## Rick (Oct 26, 2013)

It shouldn't be an issue for the hobbyist. I am willing to bet the vast majority of species in culture are very inbred. You can inbreed mantids for many generations without issue. This topic has been discussed before so doing a search may find the old posts. The article posted above is pretty good.


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## Extrememantid (Oct 26, 2013)

Okay thanks guys I appreciate the info. I guess I'll go ahead with it when I get them.

-Cole


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## Love2read (Oct 28, 2013)

Inbreeding doesn't cause defects or health issues, it only brings out genetic issues that are ALREADY THERE. So, inbreeding can be a useful tool in identifying any issues that might exist and then breeding away from them.

For example: lab mice are inbred a MINIMUM of 20 generations. This not only produces genetically identical mice, but also helps to weed out any potential genetic issues from the lines to ensure that the mice being used are free of defects.

Once you've inbred enough generations and bred out any problems, you will have animals that are extremely healthy and robust.  

*I breed mice/rats and am a big advocate of inbreeding when you're dealing with animals that reproduce quickly and in large numbers(thus giving you a large base # to work with and help identify any potential issues that might rear their ugly heads). With each generation, choose only the best of each "litter" and, if done right, you should end up with good lines in the end.


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## Pizzaparlor45 (Oct 28, 2013)

No need to waste your money, inbreeding is usually fine. It works well with many other insects, why not mantids.


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## devetaki9 (Oct 28, 2013)

Love2read said:


> Inbreeding doesn't cause defects or health issues, it only brings out genetic issues that are ALREADY THERE. So, inbreeding can be a useful tool in identifying any issues that might exist and then breeding away from them.
> 
> For example: lab mice are inbred a MINIMUM of 20 generations. This not only produces genetically identical mice, but also helps to weed out any potential genetic issues from the lines to ensure that the mice being used are free of defects.
> 
> ...


I agree with this when you are dealing with smaller mammals and insects. However jump to a rabbit and you can obtain some serious genetic defects, also depending on color, pattern etc. Some breeds you are dooming the litter to death if you inbreed. Raised rabbits for about 20 years and learned a lot about genetics on that front.General accepted inbreeding is @25% with most breeders I know not going past 15%. line breeding being much more acceptable. It was always frowned upon to breed siblings, but again this is a case of apples and oranges when compared to insects and lab animals


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## Extrememantid (Oct 28, 2013)

Yea I guess so, thanks guys! I'll go for it and hopefully it works!


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## Love2read (Oct 30, 2013)

devetaki9 said:


> I agree with this when you are dealing with smaller mammals and insects. However jump to a rabbit and you can obtain some serious genetic defects, also depending on color, pattern etc. Some breeds you are dooming the litter to death if you inbreed. Raised rabbits for about 20 years and learned a lot about genetics on that front.
> 
> General accepted inbreeding is @25% with most breeders I know not going past 15%. line breeding being much more acceptable. It was always frowned upon to breed siblings, but again this is a case of apples and oranges when compared to insects and lab animals


Agreed. There's definitely a limit to the species in which this can be reliably done. People always think that bunnies breed like crazy, but they're actually difficult to breed and tend to only have about 2-5 babies at a time, depending on the species. And that's no nearly a large enough litter to determine if there are genetic issues in lines.

Mice, rats, hamsters, and other similar species have large litters and you can usually tell within just a couple breeders whether there's something going on. If you produce 50+ babies from the same inbred pairing and nothing comes up, I think it's safe to assume that breeding is a good one and you can move on to the next generation and start again.

I also breed sugar gliders and with them only have 1-2 babies every few months it doesn't allow for inbreeding, thus I try to stay as close to 0% as possible, with my highest being 4%, but his babies are 0% because his mate is completely unrelated.


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