# Quick question for all of you.



## ABbuggin (Jan 13, 2010)

I need to know what the proper plural term for "praying mantis" is. I need to know, otherwise I'll be docked in my college class for incorrect grammar.  

So is it:

praying mantids

or

praying mantises

????

Honestly, I have no clue. :lol:


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## Opivy (Jan 13, 2010)

I've always wondered that myself. You would've been one of the people I would ask though LOL

I say "Mantises" or "My Bugs" (I guess AgentA wouldn't like that)

I dunno, mantids just sounds weird to me.


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## sbugir (Jan 13, 2010)

I say they're both acceptable, but I'm going to go w/ mantids, as that's the name of this forum  .


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## ABbuggin (Jan 13, 2010)

Lol @ Opivy.

I personally use praying mantids, but in honesty, I don't know if it is grammatically correct. My professor (computer class) isn't a "bug guy" so he may not know. I guess I'd just not rather take the chance.


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## mantisfart2 (Jan 13, 2010)

I would guess the first one, Phil will probably know and give you the answer when he logs on.


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## Katnapper (Jan 13, 2010)

If a highly respected book is entitled "The Praying Mantids," you would think the term would be correct. I don't really know for sure, but it does sound better than "Mantises" to me.


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## idolomantis (Jan 13, 2010)

Mantids.


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## revmdn (Jan 13, 2010)

What does spell check say?


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 13, 2010)

ABbuggin said:


> I need to know what the proper plural term for "praying mantis" is. I need to know, otherwise I'll be docked in my college class for incorrect grammar.  So is it:
> 
> praying mantids
> 
> ...


Both are correct, but modern American usage leans towards "mantids" as in Orin's (excellent, buy it if you don't already have it) book_ Praying Mantids: Keeping Aliens_ (did I mention that Peter sells it at Bugs in Cyberspace??) and the Prete book, _The Praying Mantids_.

The question of the singular is a little murkier. Most people, I think, still follow the Greek root and call it a "mantis", but some, by back formation , say "mantid".

And for bonus points, though there is no relationship between "mantis" and "mantissa", the math term, the latter is an anagram for "Satanism".


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## sbugir (Jan 13, 2010)

Aye, Hail Satan. jk (South Park reference...)


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## Rick (Jan 13, 2010)

Mantids. I really doubt a non bug person will know either way or even care.


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## MantidLord (Jan 13, 2010)

Rick said:


> Mantids. I really doubt a non bug person will know either way or even care.


+1


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## hibiscusmile (Jan 13, 2010)

Yea, but us Insect people really do!


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## ABbuggin (Jan 14, 2010)

Katnapper said:


> If a highly respected book is entitled "The Praying Mantids," you would think the term would be correct. I don't really know for sure, but it does sound better than "Mantises" to me.


omg, why didn't I think of that before. I have that very book. :wacko: 

Thanks guys, I guess I had it right the first time.


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## batsofchaos (Jan 14, 2010)

Do the folks here really not know the rule behind this? I guess it's obscure, but I didn't think it was.

'Mantis' as a term refers exclusively to species in the genus 'Mantis' (i.e. _Mantis religiosa_), while 'Mantid' refers to any species within the order 'Mantodea.' Thus, it goes along that insects you can properly apply the term 'mantis' to are pluralized to 'mantises,' while 'mantid' species are pluralized to 'mantids.' However, both terms are used fairly interchangeably so it's really up to personal preference.

Here is the source of my info: http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PUBS/insect/05510.html (bottom of the page under the heading 'mantis or mantid?')


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 14, 2010)

batsofchaos said:


> Do the folks here really not know the rule behind this? I guess it's obscure, but I didn't think it was.'Mantis' as a term refers exclusively to species in the genus 'Mantis' (i.e. _Mantis religiosa_), while 'Mantid' refers to any species within the order 'Mantodea.' Thus, it goes along that insects you can properly apply the term 'mantis' to are pluralized to 'mantises,' while 'mantid' species are pluralized to 'mantids.' However, both terms are used fairly interchangeably so it's really up to personal preference.
> 
> Here is the source of my info: http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PUBS/insect/05510.html (bottom of the page under the heading 'mantis or mantid?')


Ah yes! A young scientist getting it laughably wrong! I remember reading the same argument in a Wikipedia article, a cuppla years back. Here's the "laughably wrong" part: "Technically, Mantis is properly applied to a genus of mantids, the most widely recognized being “the” praying mantid, Mantis religiosa. Mantid is the best term applied to members of this order, Mantodea." So he calls M. religiosa a mantid, anyway.  

Recently, I whinged, in my elderly way, about the fact that scientists often have little knowledge of language. I probably exaggerated. They have no idea about language, whatsoever. Technically, one uses technical names, like "mantodea", not "mantids" for technical matters.

The common terms, "mantis" and "mantid" belong to the province of etymologists. Either is fine. A much stronger case can be made for Agent A's claim (another whinge, I believe) that the _insecta_ should be called "insects", not "bugs" (to avoid confusion with the hemiptera, I assume), but descriptive etymologists won the day in the US with Webster's 3rd International dictionary (http://encyclopedia.stateuniversity.com/pages/5867/dictionary.html), and if people use "bug" to denote what may be an insect (it could also be a scorpion or other arthropod), that's the way it goes.

I remember being dangerously forthright in a discussion on this subject in my doctoral orals (passed, though!) but this is not the place for such a discussion. So while I stand strongly opposed to both your position, Bats, as well as Rick's highly prescriptive approach ("it's "mantids" where I live, so it must be true throughout the U.S."), I shall just mumble quietly to myself.


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## agent A (Jan 14, 2010)

techniqually "mantids" refers to the plural of any species within the family Mantidae, mantises refer to the others.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 14, 2010)

agent A said:


> techniqually "mantids" refers to any species within the family Mantidae, mantises refer to the others.


No.


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## sufistic (Jan 14, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> No.


+1 because 'mantids', 'mantis' or 'mantises' shouldn't be used technically.


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## batsofchaos (Jan 14, 2010)

I stand corrected. So basically, it doesn't matter how you actually go about pluralizing it because the scientific language of entomologists requires far more precision than general words like mantis or mantid can convey. Regarding the etymology of the words, both are recognized as correct within American English, so you're pretty much able to go with whatever the heck you want as your base word and then pluralize appropriately.


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## kamakiri (Jan 14, 2010)

I have a tendency to use 'mantises' in the context of a group of specific individuals, like, 'my mantises'.

I have a tendency to use 'mantids' when speaking of them broadly. 'mantids are fun to study'

I thought they can be used interchangeably...


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 14, 2010)

batsofchaos said:


> I stand corrected. So basically, it doesn't matter how you actually go about pluralizing it because the scientific language of entomologists requires far more precision than general words like mantis or mantid can convey. Regarding the etymology of the words, both are recognized as correct within American English, so you're pretty much able to go with whatever the heck you want as your base word and then pluralize appropriately.


Yep, that sounds about right. My ramblings of this afternoon were from memory, and while I don't think that I stated anything incoorectly, I was interested to find some extra facts when I pulled out my OED and Webster's 3rd. The former specifically contradicts the "technical" argument about the difference between the mantis genus and the order (then family) Mantodea and cites a source from 1645 that uses "mantis", "mantises" and "mantes" as the plurals. It cited an 1895 (very late for the OED) source for "mantid" and none for "mantids", though that isn't evidence against its usage. Webster's 3rd (1971) gives "mantis", "mantid", "mantises", "mantes", and "mantids", though, of course with no first citations. I find it a little odd that both dictionaries admit "mantes", surely the plural of Fr. "mante" ("Insecte a pattes anterieures ravisseuses." Is that cool or what?) but not the singular.

So now, Alex will get an A+ on his paper, and I, at least, feel ready for fresh fields and pastures new.


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## Katnapper (Jan 15, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> So now, Alex will get an A+ on his paper, and I, at least, feel ready for fresh fields and pastures new.


Andrew is writing the paper.


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## agent A (Jan 16, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> So now, Alex will get an A+ on his paper, and I, at least, feel ready for fresh fields and pastures new.


epic fail


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