# Ants with my mantids?



## Loops117 (Mar 24, 2016)

Upon building my stand for the vivarium, i came up with a rather unique idea. I've always been fascinated by ants as well. I'd like to implement a hand made ant formicarium (Similar to the example) into the bottom of my tank. It would go infront of the substrate under the surface with parts above the surface.

Now, the mantids will be able to see these ants but won't be able to get to them. Will this cause an issue with the mantids? Possibly stress them out too much?

Example photo.


----------



## hibiscusmile (Mar 24, 2016)

They wont be able to get to the mantis? I guess it is ok, but may stress them, but prob not as most dont stay near the bottom of the tank.


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 24, 2016)

Aw man, why did you have to go and post that. Now I'm interested in trying a colony of ants along with all my other insects.  I've spent the last few hours looking up details about getting a colony going, digging up a queen, and what species is best for burrowing. 



Ha, I'll have to wait and try when it's daylight outside.

About your questions, ants are known to attack and feed off mantids (due to sheer numbers or the size difference as ants can climb on mantids and chew) they are natural enemies. Take a look on youtube for what happens to a mantis when attacked by ants, it isn't pretty - especially for us mantid keepers.

I would think it would cause undue stress to a mantid just by continued sightings. The stress could affect the mantids health, eating, and sleeping abilities. The mantid would always be on guard, and often trying to attack through the glass/plastic at them.

I like the idea of combing various things, however you would want to ensure the ants can not get to the mantid at all. I would suggest placing some plants around any parts the ants would be in view of the mantid, or simply black out the glass/plastic or cover with a fake background, to prevent any stress.


----------



## Loops117 (Mar 25, 2016)

Aww man, that really cuts down my idea for the formicarium. They would be completely sealed from the mantids via a thin piece of molded acrylic over the top and completely sealed all the way around. I was hoping to do the area underneath, and an anthill above the substrate. The acrylic top would only come above the surface about an inch, up and over an ant hill. How do mantids react when putting two next to each other in separate containers? More specifically Ghost mantids. I know that they're natural enemies, but do you think them having a clear barrier will make them feel any different? They would be completely sealed from the mantids, so i don't think scents would get around either.

Has anyone done anything like this with different species, and not just ants?


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 25, 2016)

If you are referring to how Ghosts in separate containers would react to each other with close containers, that wouldn't be a problem.

The only species I've had that tend to be aggressive towards it's neighbors is the Chinese mantis (Tenodera sinensis). Some adults I had would literally sit and smack their container sides at the other mantids for hours - even another Chinese mantis the same size. I finally had to put up some paper barriers between them so they couldn't see each other to make it stop. I've also had the same issue at times with a older mantids that was bigger than their neighbor (either size wise from different species, or instar size like a L5 smacking at at L2 neighbor), but that isn't as common.

However if you are talking about a Ghost mantid and the ants in nearby containers, it would be the same outcome of stress and trying to smack them away. If nothing else try it small scale first by putting ants in a 32oz container right beside your mantid habitats and see what happens. Perhaps you might get lucky and have some very mellow mantids that may ignore the ants.





A clear barrier though wouldn't make them feel any different at all. As in nature there is no such thing, or due to their limited instincts, they wouldn't understand the barrier (as clear means nothing is there). Just like putting a wild caught mantid in a clear container as a new pet. Many will attack the clear walls with complete abandonment to the point of hurting themselves trying to escape. Or like a bird smacking into a window when it is flying.

An alternative might be to attach a tiny mesh or material that will let the mantids see that the barrier is there, but will not obstruct your view. That might work and solve the issues. A creative alternative would be to use some dark window tint, sold in rolls for cars in about any automotive department. Position the sides of the tint so the mantid can't see the ants, but you and the ants can see the mantid.

The closest I've come from having other species in view of a mantid, that wasn't prey/feeders, was adding isopods (pill bugs/sow bugs) direct to the mantid habitats. As they are a great cleaning crew and the mantids are not threatened or stressed at all. Occasionally a mantid will grab one up usually to see what it is before letting it go, although they do sometimes eat a isopod.


----------



## Loops117 (Mar 25, 2016)

Thank you cosby. I was hoping to section off part of the main tree branch going up the center of the tank. I would have sealed it off completely (in the wood as well by removing the section, and putting acrylic between the two sections so the ants cant burrow through) so the ants can enjoy part of the vivarium as well. I was thinking of hiding the edges/seems with moss which will also block parts of the view. But if the mantis is still intrigued or stressed, i'll have to figure out an alternative.

The goal is to make it look like they're together, but really they're completely separate.

I guess i could run that experiment to see how they react while my ants colonize in a container. I still have to catch my de-virginized queens and start my colonies. It wouldn't be hard to just keep their containers around my mantids. Hopefully this unlocks some new information regarding housing mantids.


----------



## Loops117 (Mar 25, 2016)

Here's the idea im thinking. Bear with me since this is a quick sketch. This isn't the exact layout, but just a rough cut. Also, the enclosure is a rimless 20g set on it's small side. Formicarium being the front Viewing side.

This center divide is a troth, just for visual aspect. The highlighted sections are the only areas the ants will be able to get to. They would be completely sealed off. 

They would have access to the tree via a "Root" that will go across the troth and will have an acrylic tube completely around it. All these sections will be connected via a short series of tunnels that will be buried under the substrate.


----------



## Hisserdude (Mar 25, 2016)

It's a very cool idea, but if the ants can find ANY way to get to your mantids, they will rip them apart! I personally wouldn't risk it, I've seen first hand what ants can do to other bugs, it ain't pretty!


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 25, 2016)

Loops117 said:


> Thank you cosby. I was hoping to section off part of the main tree branch going up the center of the tank. I would have sealed it off completely (in the wood as well by removing the section, and putting acrylic between the two sections so the ants cant burrow through) so the ants can enjoy part of the vivarium as well. I was thinking of hiding the edges/seems with moss which will also block parts of the view. But if the mantis is still intrigued or stressed, i'll have to figure out an alternative.
> 
> The goal is to make it look like they're together, but really they're completely separate.
> 
> I guess i could run that experiment to see how they react while my ants colonize in a container. I still have to catch my de-virginized queens and start my colonies. It wouldn't be hard to just keep their containers around my mantids. Hopefully this unlocks some new information regarding housing mantids.


Your welcome for any help I can provide. It does sounds like a interesting build that could be great if proper care is given they can't mix with each other.  By the sound of things it seems you have a handle on that portion of the project.

I doubt it would take any considerable time to tell if your mantid(s) are stressed by the ants beside them, likely you would know in 5 minutes. Of course if the mantids don't seem to react negatively in minutes, a bit more time would be a good idea.



Loops117 said:


> Here's the idea im thinking. Bear with me since this is a quick sketch. This isn't the exact layout, but just a rough cut. Also, the enclosure is a rimless 20g set on it's small side. Formicarium being the front Viewing side.
> 
> This center divide is a troth, just for visual aspect. The highlighted sections are the only areas the ants will be able to get to. They would be completely sealed off.
> 
> They would have access to the tree via a "Root" that will go across the troth and will have an acrylic tube completely around it. All these sections will be connected via a short series of tunnels that will be buried under the substrate.


Okay the center divide is a trough (trench/ditch/gutter) right? If so I am with you so far.

It sounds like a impressive setup with many interesting design elements - the tree "root" above ground sounds like that would be the main trouble spot for the mantids though. I understand the mantids and ants will be completely separated by the acrylic, so my question comes in about the access doors/panels. For the mantid portion of the tank will you have a top or side access, and for the ants will you access them by the opposite side of the mantids?

I'm curious of that point, the access, as it will likely be the weak link in your setup. After all you will have to access both species to add feeders/food, add new specimens, cleaning, and what not. Of course you could use the "ant gel" to supply the ants their needs, but you still will have to access them.  My worry of the access is possible ant escapes trying to get to the mantid access, or waiting till you open it. In life you just never know what might happen.

If the mantids are found from the simple test though that they can't be kept in your setup, you could build it anyway and use another species in their place. Perhaps some death feigning beetles, some of the larger millipedes, or whatever you prefer. As it sounds like a impressive build, mantids or not.


----------



## Loops117 (Mar 26, 2016)

access is still going to be key. the normal open side of the 20g is being replaced with 3 sections of equal sized glass. the top and bottom being fixed with the center one attached with magnets for easy removal. As for the ants, their entrance will be in the bottom fixed pane of glass. this way both opening will have to be open, and ants will have to crawl out, and back into the tank to get to the mantids. I promise that if i cant seal it all the way around, i wont do it. i wouldnt put any creature in that kind of harms way. i am pretty confident on my wood working/crafting skills, so that shouldnt be a problem.


----------



## CosbyArt (Mar 26, 2016)

Sounds like you got everything covered. Have you had a chance to test the ants in close proximity of your mantids?


----------



## Loops117 (Mar 26, 2016)

I have not. I don't even have any mantids right now. This tank is going to be an overall project. I'm eager to get my first though.


----------



## CosbyArt (Apr 9, 2016)

Loops I'm curious have you had a chance to start the project?

I've been searching for a queen ant and colony myself, although it will be separate from any of my mantids. So far I've only come across a termite community in a old stump, and some tiny red and black ants under various rocks or in dead trees. One of which I carefully pulled apart looking for the larger queen and had no luck finding her. I did find the egg site and thousands of ants, but they are were all the same tiny size. I figured they wouldn't make for a good ant colony species and abandoned the search for now.

Lately we have been experiencing freezing nights, and is said to be 25 F cooler than average, so it seems spring has stopped for the last week - and even the plant growth seems to be dying off.


----------



## Loops117 (Apr 9, 2016)

Im still on the search. It was great weather for anting when i originally posted this, but since then has been snowing. As soon as i get something (even some workers) going, i'll update this.


----------



## CosbyArt (Apr 9, 2016)

That is crazy about snow in April, I didn't realize you were north of me in Michigan. Alright glad to hear it, hopefully the weather will return to normal and we can go back to spring related activities.


----------



## Loops117 (Jul 11, 2017)

@CosbyArt

Hey bud, check it out. Here's a link to a video in my collection thread. I think you may like it.


----------



## hymenopus (Jul 21, 2017)

Hisserdude said:


> It's a very cool idea, but if the ants can find ANY way to get to your mantids, they will rip them apart! I personally wouldn't risk it, I've seen first hand what ants can do to other bugs, it ain't pretty!


I agree, I saw many large caterpillars and have had my Dynastes Tityus perpual finished off by ants! :angry:


----------



## Loops117 (Jul 21, 2017)

Actually, it's being done now. I've found a species of ants that doesnt prey on live insects. They're actually living in my insect community with an L3 _Tenodera sinensis_ that's recently molted into an L4.

Ant species is _Tapinoma sessile._


----------



## hymenopus (Jul 21, 2017)

I've got a ghost, a Hierodula a hisser, dubia adult, BDF Beetle I might put them together though exclude the hierodula!


----------



## Loops117 (Jul 21, 2017)

Yeah, i'm gonna have to remove my mantis soon as i have beetles that wont survive a mantis that large.


----------



## hymenopus (Jul 31, 2017)

Ghosts are really nice and aren't that fierce!


----------



## hymenopus (Jul 31, 2017)

Is yours a male or female?


----------



## Loops117 (Jul 31, 2017)

I believe mine is a male. Also, if i'm not mistaken, my mantis is now an L5. He had molted the other night and i was able to snap some quick shots shortly after he came out.

This was taken just before the molt.







And now.


----------



## hymenopus (Jul 31, 2017)

Nice,my ghost is L5 too!


----------



## hymenopus (Jul 31, 2017)

I also think that I could have an ant colony with my Ghost Mantid?


----------

