# Terrarium with lots of twigs



## Precarious (Sep 5, 2010)

Since Idolos have special needs when it comes to gripping surfaces later in life I wanted to prepare a terrarium specifically with this in mind. I've also noticed adult female Violins have trouble gripping screens so I made a roof insert that puts twigs between them and the screen.

I'm using a Zoo Med Naturalistic Terrarium tank (16" tall x 12" deep x 12" across) that opens in the front, has a screened top and front venting. I already have a natural cork bark background installed but I wanted something more like twigs and lighter in color since I plan on shooting video directly in the tank.

I opted for bamboo mats! I got these at Big Lots for $5 and cut one to the width of the terrarium so I could lay it over top of the cork bark. I only used one for this project so I've got some backup.







I wanted to find an arrangement that would allow me to freely insert or remove horizontal branches within the tank without getting hot glue all over the glass. I was thinking of some kind of framework or grid I could attach twigs to, but that wouldn't block too much light as I often use additional lighting from the side of the tank. I considered chicken wire, but thought that would look crappy.

Hmmm...

I walked through Lowe's brainstorming. Nothing fit my needs. I walked through A.C. Moore and was about to buy a clunky trellis I'd have to cut to the size when I spotted the wood working section.

I ended up buying $5 worth of thin wooden dowels. I used them to build a frame to fit snugly on each side of the tank. I cut the dowels to length and used Elmer's Glue to set the cross beams in place with reinforcements above and below each level.






After drying overnight I did a test fit, made minor adjustments, then reinforced all the joints with the hot glue gun. I figured Elmer's would break down from the humidity and misting, but it was the cleanest way to get the frame together. Hot glue should seal the deal!

Here is the tank with bamboo placemat backdrop and frame in place.






I was sure to measure so as to leave room for the door to open and close without disturbing the frame. The frame ended up fitting so snugly I didn't even need to attach it with glue.

The next step was to make use of some twigs. I bought a bundle of 'Birch Bales' at the gardening store for around $7. They're generally used as embellishment in flower arrangements but seem perfect for little mantis feet to grip. They have a good range of thickness with the ends being very thin. Of course, I washed them really well in case they'd been treated for insects. Better safe than sorry.






The blocky frame looked a little unnatural so I hot glued branches over it. Ended up looking really nice and created a means of vertical mantid movement in addition to the bamboo mat. I then cut and wedged branches horizontally creating multiple levels of perches.






The best part is I can change it up as needed. For the time being I'll use it for my adult female Ghosts. When they lay an ooth I can just take that branch out and replace it. I love that level of versatility.  

Her are the girls settling in...






I then made an insert to use for my violin mantids. It allows them to hold the branches or reach through to the screen if they want to. I drew up a template of the measurements of the rim of the tank. I cut 2 bamboo skewers (from MantisPlace.com) to lay over the lip of the rim. They would be what holds the whole assembly in place. I then glued twigs cut to fit within the rim to the bamboo skewers.











They really seem to like it! And the female who was having difficulty gripping is doing much better now. I'm going to make another for the Idolo tank.


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## manzano167 (Sep 5, 2010)

looks nice!


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## angelofdeathzz (Sep 5, 2010)

very nice! no copyright you say,well then... :lol: but how much are those Zoo Med Naturalistic tanks? they are sweet!!!


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## Precarious (Sep 5, 2010)

angelofdeathzz said:


> very nice! no copyright you say,well then... :lol: but how much are those Zoo Med Naturalistic tanks? they are sweet!!!


Fiddy bucks!

http://www.amazon.com/NT-2-Naturalistic-Terrarium-12in-18in/dp/B000QFR638/


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## Jesskb (Sep 5, 2010)

looks pretty awesome! might have to try it when I get some Idolo's or violins.


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## LauraMG (Sep 5, 2010)

It's awesome Precarious! I hope it helps with the mismolt problem


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## angelofdeathzz (Sep 6, 2010)

fiddy is cheap for what you get,may have to try one!


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## Seattle79 (Sep 6, 2010)

What a great setup. Nice work. Perfect! You made those Mantids very happy.

-Kevin


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## Rick (Sep 6, 2010)

I think the base enclosure should be something other than glass to use as a starting point. I checked the bamboo skewers we have in the kitchen and they are pretty smooth. I have not had any issues with Gongy in a net cage with few sticks. Just some thoughts.


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## Precarious (Sep 6, 2010)

Rick said:


> I checked the bamboo skewers we have in the kitchen and they are pretty smooth.


You're missing the point. I'm only using bamboo skewers to anchor my roof assembly. Besides, I use bamboo skewers to handle mantids all the time and they have plenty of woody texture for them to grip. That's why they're sold at MantisPlace. They don't require much texture to get a hold. So long as the wood has no finish you're golden.

What's more, the bamboo mat is made up of individual slats. The mantises can walk up it with no problem. I've seen it with my own eyes. Even if there were no texture they could hook around the slats.



Rick said:


> I think the base enclosure should be something other than glass to use as a starting point... I have not had any issues with Gongy in a net cage with few sticks. Just some thoughts.


Personally, I don't like net cages. I'm a stickler for humidity so glass or plastic are my materials of choice. And there is quite a bit of chatter in past forums with European breeders stating that although netting will cause less damage to mantid feet than a metal screen, Idolos will still be more likely to fall from it.

Go HERE and read the advice that was given to you by tier who has successfully bred a generation of Idolos.

And I just don't like the way net cages look. I'm going for aesthetic appeal as much as functionality. I will be shooting footage in this cage so I want a suitable backdrop. The bamboo mat brings to mind Japanese structures seeking harmony with nature. I dig that.  

I definitely hear your KISS maxim. Most people are content to do whatever works. But some people enjoy the challenge of creating something a little more artistic in nature. And besides, this isn't an Army Corps of Engineers project. It's a mantis enclosure.  

With a little brain power and effort I've created something unique yet completely functional to my needs. It was a very satisfying experience. Like creating a piece of art.

My masterpiece is complete! Someone call the Guggenheim! ^_^ hone:


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## angelofdeathzz (Sep 6, 2010)

If the shipping wasn't a zillion dollars :blink: you could probably make and sell many of these to people right here at the forum ... A+++


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## Rick (Sep 6, 2010)

When I mentioned the texture of skewers I was actually trying to relate to what I have on hand. Have you kept Idolo? They can barely grip the rough textured bark on the sticks I am keeping them with. Just because something is sold by somebody doesn't mean you have to have it or that it is the best option. I could find many things that are not needed or not the best option, but are being sold for mantids. Don't buy into everything you see for sale. Remember, merchants are just out to make a buck.

You're right. It is a mantis enclosure, but you HAVE turned it into an Army Corps of Engineers project. I feel based on my experience with Idolomantis that you will have issues with them getting a good foothold on it. It looks like the sides are still mostly glass which will pose an issue for both species.


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## Precarious (Sep 6, 2010)

Rick said:


> Just because something is sold by somebody doesn't mean you have to have it or that it is the best option. I could find many things that are not needed or not the best option, but are being sold for mantids. Don't buy into everything you see for sale. Remember, merchants are just out to make a buck.


All I did was explain why I did what I did.

You're right about one thing. I haven't raised Idolos before. That's why I'll take the advice of those who have successfully done so. Tier, for instance. Have you bred them? Last I checked you were having all the issues I'm trying to avoid, while ignoring what experienced breeders suggest.

Your words after finding your adult female crumpled on the cage floor:

"I had put in many tiny branches but it looks like she still found a spot on the cage and molted from there."

So tell me again why should I use a net cage?


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## Ghostie (Sep 6, 2010)

Glue screen inside of the exposed glass.

Looks good mang.


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## Precarious (Sep 6, 2010)

Ghostie said:


> Glue screen inside of the exposed glass.
> 
> Looks good mang.


My Idolos will be raised screen-free, thank you very much.

I may not know much but one thing I do know is mantids do not hang from screens or nets in the wild.

Anyone like to argue that point?


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## Ghostie (Sep 6, 2010)

Precarious said:


> My Idolos will be raised screen-free, thank you very much.
> 
> I may not know much but one thing I do know is mantids do not hang from screens or nets in the wild.
> 
> Anyone like to argue that point?


You have a point there.

Only ones I found in the wild were hanging inverted from sticks.

Edit:

or about to get refueled and ran over.. lol

I do notice that clear walls tend to annoy them a bit but if they are on the sticks they don't notice the clear walls.

These idolos are puzzle to me. I'll be happy to get one to adult.

Six left alive all L2 and L3..

the only ones I have lost so far were all the ones that never recovered from shipping I'm pretty certain. They seem to be OK in my deli cups for now with foam lids and lots of sticks and twice daily misting. It would appear a glass or plastic wall is not a deal breaker.. at this young L2-L3 age at least.


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## Rick (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm all for people coming up with something new, however we get plenty on here who try to reinvent the wheel when all they're doing is making things harder.

Yes I have had problems with the species. You put my exact words here stating I added the many small twigs as was suggested by someone.


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## Precarious (Sep 7, 2010)

My point was you were advised against using screen and net surface for molting. Yes, you added twigs but you suspect she still found a spot to hang on the net and because of that fell during molt.

So why advise me to use a net cage? Why state that "the base enclosure should be something other than glass"? I don't want them to be able to grip the walls. I want them to grip branches.

I don't know any mantids that have a preference to molt or hang from a vertical surface. All of mine hang from horizontal perches.


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## Rick (Sep 7, 2010)

I never said that my mantis molted from the net. She molted from the twigs, just too low to the cage floor.


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## Precarious (Sep 7, 2010)

Net cage is bad advice - period. They don't hold the high humidity this breed needs (as per Tier's advice) and they fall when molting from it.


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## Peter Clausen (Sep 7, 2010)

(Some of the posts in this thread have been edited by mutual agreement of the parties involved. Carry on.)


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## guapoalto049 (Sep 7, 2010)

I have noticed that my mantids sometimes get eye injuries when using a glass or plastic cage. My L3 Idolos molted today in a butterfly net cage with no problems. As they get a little older, I'm planning on doing a similar setup with a jungle gym of thin branches, as in the picture posted.

It does look like a nice setup though, only time will tell if it works! Hopefully something useful will come out of your experience and we can collectively get this problem solved.


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## guapoalto049 (Sep 7, 2010)




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## Precarious (Sep 7, 2010)

guapoalto049 said:


> I have noticed that my mantids sometimes get eye injuries when using a glass or plastic cage. My L3 Idolos molted today in a butterfly net cage with no problems. As they get a little older, I'm planning on doing a similar setup with a jungle gym of thin branches, as in the picture posted.


Maybe try to keep the branches from touching the net so they stay on the branches. The other issue is they need room for their wings so the branches can't be clustered together. We'll keep in touch and see what works.

Eye injuries??? That's a new one to me. What do you mean?


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## guapoalto049 (Sep 8, 2010)

Precarious said:


> Maybe try to keep the branches from touching the net so they stay on the branches. The other issue is they need room for their wings so the branches can't be clustered together. We'll keep in touch and see what works.
> 
> Eye injuries??? That's a new one to me. What do you mean?


Some of my female Chinese (why only female I don't know) have been bumping into the sides of the container. This is the only year I've encountered this...the eye turns brown in front where its repeatedly being bumped. Only two Chinese were spotless, and they were the ones kept in net cages.

Quite an odd problem I know, so this may be just a rare case. The points that tier brought up are very interesting, indeed. The fact that this species always changes to bright green when adult suggests (in my mind) a drastic environment change in nature.

What instar are your mantids?


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## Precarious (Sep 8, 2010)

guapoalto049 said:


> What instar are your mantids?


I'm assuming you mean the Idolos. Still young - L2s and L3s.


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## guapoalto049 (Sep 8, 2010)

Yeah Idolos, sorry. Mine are the same age! Lets keep eachother posted.


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## ismart (Sep 8, 2010)

Wow! :blink: Very nice!  Sorry if you have mentioned this before, but for the sides, what are using for them to climb to the top?


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## Precarious (Sep 8, 2010)

ismart said:


> Wow! :blink: Very nice!  Sorry if you have mentioned this before, but for the sides, what are using for them to climb to the top?


I have branches attched to the framework. Right now I just have 2 vertical branches on each side and another multi-limbed branch at an incline. I can add as many as I need to sides if that becomes necessary. In fact, I could cover the whole backdrop with branches too. There is also a fake plant becasue the Ghosts like them. I'll take that out when it comes time for the Idolos.











One of the Ghosts laid an ooth in there already!


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## Precarious (Sep 8, 2010)

guapoalto049 said:


> Yeah Idolos, sorry. Mine are the same age! Lets keep eachother posted.


Absolutely. I'll definitely keep updating with posts. You'll always know what's going on with mine.


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## Schloaty (Sep 14, 2010)

I have some young idolo's myself...and I'm toying with the idea of getting a small wooden birdcage...

You know, a cage where the whole thing is made of rungs.

I know that may present a humidity issue for most, but I have an indoor grow chamber ("greenhouse" of sorts) for tropical plants...and I don't allow the humidity to drop below about 40% in there. In addition, I would be able to mist them very easily through the sides.

It's a thought - I haven't really committed to it yet. Depends on whether I can find a cheap bird cage!

It would definately have to be wood, though, so they could grip...I think metal/plastic ones might be too slippery.


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## sporeworld (Sep 28, 2010)

I've had great success with my screen cages (EXCEPT the last molt), filled with artificial plants and those bendable Exo Terra vines (really easy gripping). I keep an old Repti-Breeze blowing (humidity) and daily misting. Since it seems a shame to go "back to glass:, I'll probably just work the stick-frame idea into my existing screen cage. Especially on the top where it won't obstruct viewing.

Noteworthy: I have 3 HUGE colonies of Ghosts in the same cages, and not a single one will perch on the top or sides of the screens. But nearly every Idol I had perched on the top - their entire lives! Nice, big, roomy place, and they all crowded up on the roof. Violins did the same. But Orchids...? Now, they RESPECT my interior decorating! Good girls! ;-)


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## Precarious (Sep 28, 2010)

Sporeworld said:


> I've had great success with my screen cages (EXCEPT the last molt


I'd love to be able to just use a net cage. They are nice and roomy. Unfortunately I did some experiments and found it impossible to maintain humidity much above that of the room without constant maintenance spraying. Who's got time for that? The only other option would be to humidify my room and that's not an option for me.

I do use my net cage to mate adults sometimes since they won't be molting again.

I currently have my Idolo L4s in a plastic enclosure with very high humidity and high heat and they love it. Plenty of hang space on vines and sticks. Of course they gravitate to the plastic screen on the lid so if I keep them in it beyond next molt I'll just glue twigs to the lid.

I'm using the large glass enclosure in this post for my adult ghosts at the moment. They've laid 4 ooths in it so far. They like climbing the wooden framework and bamboo mat as much as the branches. I've made a similar enclosure for my Heterochaeta occidentalis where I have one wall all vertical twigs (similar to the violin roof) and bamboo mat on the back surface. They love hanging from both as well as the vines and screen. There are 4 in there and there is one on each surface!  I guess they like variety.


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## sporeworld (Sep 28, 2010)

Yeah, I had the Repti-Breeze pouring light fog into the Idol cage most of the day. I kept an eye out for mold or mildew, which didn't happen. The cage would get a little clammy at times, and I'd give it a rest. I paniced a bit when I read someone posting that they liked it dry. That hadn't been my experience.


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## Precarious (Sep 28, 2010)

Sporeworld said:


> I paniced a bit when I read someone posting that they liked it dry. That hadn't been my experience.


Yeah, from what I've heard from those who've successfully bred them the humidity should be so high it sometimes fogs the glass.


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## sporeworld (Sep 28, 2010)

I've got about 7 cages side-by-side, and had considered sliding a sheet of plexiglass (or just celophane) to keep in more humidity, but I restlessly spray them when I need a distraction from work (their SOLE reason for existing in my office)! If anything, they need tiny Mantidae rain gear!

Sort of on that topic, has anyone noticed Dead Leaf mantids drinking water off the plants obssesively? As soon as they hear that spray bottle, they perk up and start hoovering it up. Thirsty? Well, when they've had enough and relax a bit, I spray them again - and they start right back to hoovering! I'm thinking it's OCD, and they just don't like me mucking up the place....


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## paddythemic (Sep 29, 2010)

I like the idolomantis/violin/ghost housing ideas you guys have.

The stick matrix thing is something I want to explore more. (see pic). Although the net seems good for motion, the glass/solid walls seem better for humidity control.

I am keeping 80-83f and 60% humidity for my idolos. I am also trying to "spot humidify" during estimated molt dates. My L2'S both made it to L3 so far... I had 2 casualties before switching to this method.

As I write this - one mantid is hanging from a stick and the other is hanging from a vent. I am hoping that they can use the sticks below them to pull themselves out of the molt if they are too tired to "jack-knife" out of their molt. Do you guys find that (all things being equal) the time between molts is fairly consistant?


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## Precarious (Sep 29, 2010)

paddythemic said:


> Do you guys find that (all things being equal) the time between molts is fairly consistant?


I haven't been keeping track of time between molts but mine have kept pretty consistent pace as far as keeping up with each other. The only exception being one who is a runt. He's a full molt behind and his last one didn't go too well. He somehow lost a leg.

I like all the sticks you've got going. I worry that 60% isn't enough humidity though. Maybe fill a shallow tray with wet moss and keep the globe on it if you want to be extra safe. Might boost it a bit.


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## sporeworld (Sep 29, 2010)

Anyone notice any need for day/night humidity vairance...? I have my lights all on timers, so it would be easy to put the humidifier on it too. Just not sure there's any need...


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## paddythemic (Sep 30, 2010)

Sporeworld said:


> Anyone notice any need for day/night humidity vairance...? I have my lights all on timers, so it would be easy to put the humidifier on it too. Just not sure there's any need...


I am a beginner but -

I would personally consider adding a humidifier temporarily if I noticed a mantis not getting out of a molt. (although that may not be the only reason something like that happens).


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## Precarious (Sep 30, 2010)

Sporeworld said:


> Anyone notice any need for day/night humidity vairance...? I have my lights all on timers, so it would be easy to put the humidifier on it too. Just not sure there's any need...


I have never heard any suggestion there is a need for it, but in nature humidity always goes up at night. That's why we get dew in the morning and probably one of the reasons many mantids choose night or morning to molt.


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## sporeworld (Oct 1, 2010)

Hmmm... I hadn't considered that. I imagine just leaving the fogger on 24/7, but keeping the heat/lights on cycles would produce the same results. So, stay the course, I guess...


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## nebrakacinese (Oct 15, 2010)

I don;t know alot about mantis,but it is an piece of art.


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## angelofdeathzz (Oct 15, 2010)

chinese ne said:


> I don;t know alot about mantis,but it is an piece of art.


your gonna make his head swell up !!! :lol: 

yes he is VERY creative and intuitive


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## Precarious (Oct 15, 2010)

angelofdeathzz said:


> your gonna make his head swell up !!! :lol:
> 
> yes he is VERY creative and intuitive


Awe shucks... :blush:


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## angelofdeathzz (Oct 15, 2010)

Precarious said:


> Awe shucks... :blush:


Oh com'on you know your one of the best at making videos, making cages and taking pictures of your FOOT! :lol:


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## LauraMG (Oct 15, 2010)

angelofdeathzz said:


> Oh com'on you know your one of the best at making videos, making cages and taking pictures of your FOOT! :lol:


+1! :lol: :tt2:


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## Precarious (Oct 16, 2010)

Laura G said:


> +1! :lol: :tt2:


I have no idea what either of you are talking about...


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## LauraMG (Oct 16, 2010)

That's kinda creepy.....


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## angelofdeathzz (Oct 17, 2010)

all I can say is, Very nice pedicure. B)


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## bravado (Dec 13, 2010)

ive been having bb flies escape from my exoterra but i have been unable to determine how. im assuming they are escaping through the small gaps in the door sides. has anyone else had this problem, and if so, how have you addressed it?


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## Precarious (Dec 13, 2010)

Bravado said:


> ive been having bb flies escape from my exoterra but i have been unable to determine how. im assuming they are escaping through the small gaps in the door sides. has anyone else had this problem, and if so, how have you addressed it?


First, make sure you have the sliders at the rear of the screen in the closed position blocking the power cord holes.

Even when properly closed they still seem to find a way out by sneaking under the frame of the screen if it's not seated properly. My twig roof prevents a proper seal so I'm either going to stuff some foam weather stripping around the inside crack or trim the crossbeams so they don't interfere with the seal.

So far it really hasn't been a problem but it is annoying to find a few loose flies now and then.

I let a horde of spider loose to take care of the flies but they kept biting me so I lured crows and starlings in by spreading bread over the floor and leaving the windows open. Unfortunately all the bird poop is a real chore to clean up so I brought in a bunch of stray cats which drove my allergies crazy. I bought some rabid dogs online cheap to drive out the cats but now I'm stuck up here on top of the refrigerator with my laptop, sneezing, covered in bird poop and spider bites. I guess the flies weren't so bad.


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## Ricardo (Dec 14, 2010)

nice set ups!


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 14, 2010)

Precarious said:


> First, make sure you have the sliders at the rear of the screen in the closed position blocking the power cord holes.
> 
> Even when properly closed they still seem to find a way out by sneaking under the frame of the screen if it's not seated properly. My twig roof prevents a proper seal so I'm either going to stuff some foam weather stripping around the inside crack or trim the crossbeams so they don't interfere with the seal.
> 
> ...


This seems a lot like overkill to me. Try this, instead. Put an inexpensive .vaporizer in your bug room, or anywhere else where you are troubled by flies. Fill it with gasoline and turn it on when you leave for work. On your return, light a match and enjoy a fly free evening.


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## Precarious (Dec 14, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> This seems a lot like overkill to me. Try this, instead. Put an inexpensive .vaporizer in your bug room, or anywhere else where you are troubled by flies. Fill it with gasoline and turn it on when you leave for work. On your return, light a match and enjoy a fly free evening.


I don't know, Phil. I did just what you said but all it did was blow up my house.  

:mellow: &lt; Hey...

 &lt; Wait a minute...

:blink: &lt; There are no more flies!!!

 &lt; Thanx Phil!


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## warpdrive (Dec 15, 2010)

Precarious said:


> I don't know, Phil. I did just what you said but all it did was blow up my house.
> 
> :mellow: &lt; Hey...
> 
> ...


Silly boy, the fly problem could have been solved by buying a chameleon from me and free ranging it in your house...they love flys more then mantids do.  

Harry

P.S. I just added 5 female L4 Ghosts to a exotera 12x12x12. I love what it looks like and they seem to love it too. Thanks for the ideas bro.


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