# Creobroter nebulosa



## yen_saw (Apr 22, 2009)

The ootheca (Thanks Luke) appear to be the same as any Creobroter spp. some nymphs hatched out about 2 months ago. Very strong and robust nymphs and about 90% made it to adult. I have noticed some unique differences between them and the Creobroter gemmatus for both male and female. These are only my observation.

Adult female C. nebulosa (average size)







Adult female C. gemmtus (average size)






The two white spots right below the pronotum on asll the adult female are very different than the other Creobroter sp i have kept before. It is slender rather than large round spot.

C. nebulosa (CN)






C. gemmatus (CG)






Color of black hind wing extend all the all to the edge for CG






Color of black hind wing does not extend all the all to the edge for CN


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## yen_saw (Apr 22, 2009)

Now for adult male

CN






CG






The two white spots right below the pronotum on all the adult male CN is either invisible or very small while it is larger for CG.

CN











CG











CN has black sopt on hind wings while CG doesn't

CN











CG











I am sure there are more differences.....


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## idolomantis (Apr 22, 2009)

OOh NICE!

That sure is one beautiful spieces  

me want


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## Katnapper (Apr 22, 2009)

Very interesting comparison of the Creobroter nebulosa and Creobroter gemmatus.  Thank you, Yen, for letting us see! Were those males deceased when you took the pics?


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## yen_saw (Apr 22, 2009)

Thanks Becky and idolomantis.

The mantis are alive actually. i left them in the fridge to slow them down (kind of cruel i know!) but they regain consciousness pretty fast and i have to struggle strecthing their wings with one hand and phootgraphing it with another hand. :angry:


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## Katnapper (Apr 22, 2009)

yen_saw said:


> Thanks Becky and idolomantis.The mantis are alive actually. i left them in the fridge to slow them down (kind of cruel i know!) but they regain consciousness pretty fast and i have to struggle strecthing their wings with one hand and phootgraphing it with another hand. :angry:


Ahhh.... I see!  I don't think it hurts them if you don't do it all of the time (or forget about them!). And it helps to make photographing their details easier... so I say, "Good job!"


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## idolomantis (Apr 22, 2009)

yen_saw said:


> left them in the fridge to slow them down


Does that also work with annoying creatures(dogs, babies)?


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## yen_saw (Apr 22, 2009)

Here are few other pics of C. nebulosa

Adult females


























Adult male


























Edit: Oh one more difference for the adult female. The wing for CN always past the tip of the abdomen while the wing for CG almost never past the tip of the abdomen.


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## hibiscusmile (Apr 22, 2009)

I could not tell the diff when u were just taking pic of them, but when u put on your hand I could see it better. Pretty neat Yen! and your pics are coming along so well!


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## Zelthan (Apr 22, 2009)

Congratulations Yen you have the eyes of an entomologist


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## whamslam3 (Apr 22, 2009)

this species is awsome nice pics


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## yen_saw (Apr 22, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> I could not tell the diff when u were just taking pic of them, but when u put on your hand I could see it better. Pretty neat Yen! and your pics are coming along so well!


Ooppsss... did i confuse you again Rebecca  All the three adult females on my hand are C. nebulosa, just want to show that not all of them grow to same length but in general they are larer than C. gemmatus i have from Thailand under the same food and growth condition.



Zeth said:


> Congratulations Yen you have the eyes of an entomologist


Ha Thanks. I am sure an entomologist will find more differences than me. I only want a pair of eagle sharp eyes so i could spot more mantis in my coming trip to Asia  



whamslam3 said:


> this species is awsome nice pics


Thanks! I hope to get better pics.


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## Christian (Apr 23, 2009)

This indeed seems to be a different species, so I want some dead ones!!! However, please don't use the name "nebulosa" until I checked it. I would be definitely interested in some specimens for my collection!


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## yen_saw (Apr 24, 2009)

Christian said:


> This indeed seems to be a different species, so I want some dead ones!!! However, please don't use the name "nebulosa" until I checked it. I would be definitely interested in some specimens for my collection!


No dead one so far Christian  , the 10% lost was during very young stages.

I had a look at the chinese key (1992). this species was originally collected in China (Correct me if i am wrong Luke) Not saying it is definitely C. nebulosa but i used it here because it was documented. I followed the key and found out the only creobroter species in China with black patch on male's hind wing is C. nebulosa. The "V" shape white spot right below pornotum is also recognized only for this species in that area according to a hobbyists. It might be a synonymous of other species you have seen in the German key that i have no idea  

it is written Chinese obviously  (_Creobroter nebulosa_ Zheng, 1988)


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## Christian (Apr 24, 2009)

Which article or source is this key from?


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## yen_saw (Apr 24, 2009)

it is all in Chinese. Written by Xia Kai Ling 1992 Shang Hai. Title translated as "Mantis Taxonomy in China"


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## jameslongo (Apr 28, 2009)

Hi Yen, long-time admirer, first-time inquirer.

I have read up on the Creobroter sp. &amp; found that one can influence their coloration. For instance, pink flowers in their enclosure will see them adopt a more pinky hue. Is this correct? And, for that matter, can they be persuaded to turn other colours (green, yellow, brown, etc.)? Or is pink the only variation? I realise that genetics plays a major part in overall coloration but I just wanted clarification on the weight of environmental factors.

James.


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## Christian (Apr 28, 2009)

They can have a wide range of coloration, but you need natural sun light to achieve the whole spectrum. To get different colors you have to paint the whole enclosure in the desired color. Putting a flower inside isn't sufficient. This works with some other genera as well, but don't expect every single animal to follow your "advices". It's more a matter of percentage.


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## yen_saw (Apr 28, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> Hi Yen, long-time admirer, first-time inquirer.I have read up on the Creobroter sp. &amp; found that one can influence their coloration. For instance, pink flowers in their enclosure will see them adopt a more pinky hue. Is this correct? And, for that matter, can they be persuaded to turn other colours (green, yellow, brown, etc.)? Or is pink the only variation? I realise that genetics plays a major part in overall coloration but I just wanted clarification on the weight of environmental factors.
> 
> James.


Hi James,

As Christian pointed out it takes lot of effort to see color changes for Creobroter sp. Personally i have tried it by isolating each individually to its paper color cage, there is a slight change in color as nymphs but as adult they always look alike in color. what a waste of time i know! Pseudocreobotra spp (wahlbergii or ocellata) provides much better results with different colors. So if you like to experience color changes try on Pseudocreobotra spp instead of Creobroter spp.

I have three type of Creobroter spp they all show similar color to their own type as adult when kept under same condition

Crebroter gemmatus from Thailand - green






C. pictipennis (stock from Germany but i suspect it might be C. gemmatus?) - dark green











C. nebulosa - coffee


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## Zelthan (Apr 28, 2009)

Hi Yen how can all those Creobroter be together? they wont atack each other?


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## Christian (Apr 28, 2009)

@ Yen: the first two species all are _Creobroter elongatus_. _Cr. pictipennis_ is also in stock, but looks different (green pronotum). _Cr. gemmatus_ is smaller and probably not in stock at moment.


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## yen_saw (Apr 28, 2009)

Thanks Christian, i was told the C. gemmatus and C. pictipennis respectively. The Creobroter from Thailand is actually quite small, 3 cm. HOw do you tell C. elongatas from C. gemmatus?


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## yen_saw (Apr 28, 2009)

Zeth said:


> Hi Yen how can all those Creobroter be together? they wont atack each other?


They sure do but i throw in hundreds of flies each day to minimize cannibalism. It is also a big cage.


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## Christian (Apr 28, 2009)

There are barely distinguishable. That's the problem. Maybe the Thailand ones are really _gemmatus_, I don't know (although _elongatus_ are also from Thailand). I just hope to get enough specimens that I have a large series one day. Maybe this could help clean this genus up a bit. Without seeing the type specimens it's almost not possible to draw any conclusions anyway.


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## yen_saw (Apr 28, 2009)

Christian said:


> There are barely distinguishable. That's the problem. Maybe the Thailand ones are really _gemmatus_, I don't know (although _elongatus_ are also from Thailand). I just hope to get enough specimens that I have a large series one day. Maybe this could help clean this genus up a bit. Without seeing the type specimens it's almost not possible to draw any conclusions anyway.


Ok. i just have a chance to read the same key attached earlier (sorry should have done that before asking duh!). it looks like the second one is C. elongata indeed. (See key #4, body larger than 30mm, adult male wing longer than 35mm sounds right!). For body shorter than 30mm and wing shorter than 35mm for male, with hind wing splitting into 3 parts?(what?!) for C. gemmatus. I will need to check it when i get home later.


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## yen_saw (Apr 28, 2009)

Man... i have to say the key for Creobroter spp. is indeed complicated. I can only wish the wirtings be easier. But one thing for sure the second group is likely to be C. elongata as you mentioned Christian. As the pronotum is definitely brown, not green which according to you a "trade mark" for C. pictipennis.


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## Christian (Apr 28, 2009)

_Pictipennis_ may not be the only one with a green pronotum, but among the species in stock it's unique. I cannot use the Chinese key, as I don't understand it.


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## jameslongo (Apr 29, 2009)

Thankyou Christian &amp; Yen,

very interesting info there. You've cleared up a lot of things.

Cheers,

James.


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## Katnapper (Apr 29, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> very interesting info there. You've cleared up a lot of things.


With all due respect, I'm actually more confused. :mellow:


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## Christian (Apr 29, 2009)

:lol: :lol:

Ok, let's sum it up: the following morphs are actually in stock

_C. elongatus_, _C_. "nebulosa": differences as shown by Yen.

_C. pictipennis_: hindwings more like "nebulosa", pronotum more slender and always green, wings longer.

_C. _"gemmatus": smaller than _elongatus_, similar in appearance, but forecoxae of nymphs not red as in _elongatus_. Brown pronotum, but overall more "green" than _elongatus_. Species identity not confirmed so far.

The confusion arises from the fact that _Creobroter_ *is* confusing. There is no aid at all if hobbyists start to name them by themselves. That's why there are _elongatus_ stocks wrongly named "pictipennis", not talking about the _gemmatus/elongatus_ problem.


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## Morpheus uk (Apr 29, 2009)

They all look pretty similar so why isnt there just one species in culture?

That would sure help in eliminating the problem of inbreeding &lt;_&lt;


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## yen_saw (Apr 29, 2009)

Christian said:


> :lol: :lol: Ok, let's sum it up: the following morphs are actually in stock
> 
> _C. elongatus_, _C_. "nebulosa": differences as shown by Yen.
> 
> ...


Thanks Christian. I am going to ask for the translation from some chinese scholars in TAMU entomology dept based on that key and see if that helps (or more confusing!)



Morpheus uk said:


> They all look pretty similar so why isnt there just one species in culture?That would sure help in eliminating the problem of inbreeding &lt;_&lt;


The concern here is on intra-species breeding now that we have several different species. Currently i am flooded with Creobroter from inbreeding.


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## Christian (Apr 29, 2009)

Do you mean int*er*-species breeding? That should not be a problem, as hybrids, if they should occur, are infertile.

@ Morpheus UK: because it's just boring to have one species per genus in culture. If this argument should apply, you can throw out all Mantinae species and continue to keep Sphodromantis lineola. The other ones are pretty much the same...


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## major vex (May 9, 2009)

Christian said:


> Do you mean int*er*-species breeding? That should not be a problem, as hybrids, if they should occur, are infertile.


Not a fact Im afraid, the same number of chromosomes is highly likely amongst species from the Creobroter genus which means non-mule fertile ofspring would be produced in the same way that the Pseudos have been hybridised. besides, its been done &lt;_&lt;


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## Christian (May 9, 2009)

No, it hasn't. The chromosome number is not relevant. Two species would per definition produce infertile offspring. There are some exceptions, but not in mantids. Most fertile "hybrids" are just due to mis-IDs.


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## Wojtak (May 10, 2009)

They look increadible together??Probably it isn`t easy to feed so many mantis in such big group.


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## PhilinYuma (May 10, 2009)

Wojtak said:


> They look increadible together??Probably it isn`t easy to feed so many mantis in such big group.


In fact, it's a lot easier! If you have a large enclosure (as Yen mentionbs above), it is much easier to put a container of flies or fruit flies in and just pop the lid! Much easier than measuring out ten fruit flies for one tiny nymph (oops! eight. Two got away!) or trying to feed twenty pots with forty house flies, two to a pot! The only hard part is to make sure that you have enough feeder insects, day after day!


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## PhilinYuma (May 10, 2009)

Wojtak said:


> They look increadible together??Probably it isn`t easy to feed so many mantis in such big group.


In fact, it's a lot easier! If you have a large enclosure (as Yen mentionbs above), it is much easier to put a container of flies or fruit flies in and just pop the lid! Much easier than measuring out ten fruit flies for one tiny nymph (oops! eight. Two got away!) or trying to feed twenty pots with forty house flies, two to a pot! The only hard part is to make sure that you have enough feeder insects, day after day!


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## Wojtak (May 11, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> In fact, it's a lot easier! If you have a large enclosure (as Yen mentionbs above), it is much easier to put a container of flies or fruit flies in and just pop the lid! Much easier than measuring out ten fruit flies for one tiny nymph (oops! eight. Two got away!) or trying to feed twenty pots with forty house flies, two to a pot! The only hard part is to make sure that you have enough feeder insects, day after day!


Yes,You are right 

I mean that when You feed matis which are in separate enclosure it is easy to control are they all full and if they have enough flie.But when You have them in group it`s harder to check is there enough food for all of them and are they all full. Which dosen`t mean that keeping mantis in groups isn`t better (ofcourse it`s easier to have only one big enclosure then to have about twenty of them )

Best wishes,Wojtak


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## meh (May 29, 2009)

I have a female creobroter which was sold to me as "gemmatus" and recently i've got a new male to breed with her which was also sold as "gemmatus"

is my female actually a creobroter gemmatus? here she is







also is my male a gemmatus? or are they both different species of creobroter?






I checked his wings and he has a black spot on both so doesn't that mean he's a c.nebulosa? his body is 30mm long and his wings are less than 35mm long


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## Christian (May 29, 2009)

Forget the wing spots. They are variable and may be misleading. Your female belongs to _elongatus_. I'm not sure about the male, though...


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## meh (May 29, 2009)

Christian said:


> Forget the wing spots. They are variable and may be misleading. Your female belongs to _elongata_. I'm not sure about the male, though...


do you know any signs that will show if my male is an elongatus?


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## Christian (May 29, 2009)

It should be _elongatus_, as this is most widespread species in culture at moment besides _pictipennis_. And _pictipennis_ has a different pronotum and somewhat longer wings. To avoid such confusion, we use the IGM numbers.

_Gemmatus_ *probably* was not in culture in recent years, but this is hard to prove.


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## agent A (Sep 4, 2009)

I have specimens who are all the same species, but are very wierd. Brown shield, male's white dots on wings behind shield barely visible, no black on hindwings for male, male is under 35 mm, female wings don't go past end of abdomen like gemmatus, black I think nearly reaches edge of hindwings but she is incooperative, white dots look like gemmatus, and they are too small to be nebulosa so they are probably gemmatus unless they are either meleagris or urbanis, they aren't pictipennis or elongata or nebulosa.


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