# To entomologists and anyone else interested: Tested puke! Interesting results



## [email protected] (Jan 19, 2015)

Long story short: I had a bad batch of crickets that resulted in 3 deaths and 1 is still puking (she still eats flies and honey).

I am a student and I had 2 hardy chrome candida agars and 1 MacConkey agar in my fridge. That is not necessarily what I wanted to test, but that it what I had on hand.

MacConkey agar tests for gram negative bacteria. I was able to drop puke from a leaf without touching it. I won't go into much detail because this test was negative. I know there is bacteria everywhere and I am surprised that there was nothing. It smells horrible though, so maybe the agar is too old and the test was bad.

Hardy Chrome Candida tests for 3 kinds of candida. In agar #1, I accidentally dropped the puke with a piece of the leaf it was on, into the agar (petri dish). So for agar #2, I dropped a different piece of leaf (same species) from same enclosure without puke. Agar #2 is my control.

*RESULTS*:

Agar #1 tested positive for candida tropicalis AND THERE WHERE *WHITE MITES* running around the top of the petri dish. Ok. I'm not positive of what they were. They looked like moving white specks. When I looked with my ophthalmoscope, I saw little 6-8 legged white creatures that I tried to ID on that bug ID website. Mites eat partially decomposed matter from fungi, from what I understand.

AGAR #2 tested NEGATIVE for any candida!

_I understand that my home is not a sterile environment, but I think that this is worth doing further research._

From what I understand, my mantid is infected with at least candida tropicalis, and the mites hopefully got there after she puked.

Does anyone know what microbes are normally in a mantids gut?

Has anyone heard of anything like these mites before?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.


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## MantidBro (Jan 19, 2015)

so candida tropicalis is a fungus? Is that what the mites were eating? Do you have moss in your terrarium by any chance? anything from the outdoors that wasnt boiled or baked?

Ive never seen white mites before, but have seen brown ones, which came from outdoor moss... Had to clean out the entire cage and replace everything. I know springtails are tiny and white, i mistook them for mites once

Mantid guts are always smelly even if having died of old age, i think its their bile, like acidic


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## [email protected] (Jan 19, 2015)

Yes, it is a fungus, and I believe that is what the mites were eating. My moss is from the reptile store, but yes I have some sticks that were from the outdoors. I guess I figured that in Arizona there is not much mold or fungus. You're right though, there can still be mold and especially with all the storms we had. I'm actually cleaning everything now.

Uggh!!!


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## MantidBro (Jan 19, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> Yes, it is a fungus, and I believe that is what the mites were eating. My moss is from the reptile store, but yes I have some sticks that were from the outdoors. I guess I figured that in Arizona there is not much mold or fungus. You're right though, there can still be mold and especially with all the storms we had. I'm actually cleaning everything now.
> 
> Uggh!!!


If you boil or bake anything from outside next time itll reduce the chances of their being mites

It really sucks to have to redo everything

I had to redo a huge tank it took like three hours


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## [email protected] (Jan 20, 2015)

Thanks. Sorry it took you so long. Yeah, it's actually taking me long too because I'm so afraid that everything I do is wrong. I love my babies sooo much! I cleaned my tanks with vinegar and let them heat in the sun, then I washed with water twice because I'm afraid of anything and even the vinegar! I'll definitely bake the sticks next time! Thank you!


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## MantidBro (Jan 20, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks. Sorry it took you so long. Yeah, it's actually taking me long too because I'm so afraid that everything I do is wrong. I love my babies sooo much! I cleaned my tanks with vinegar and let them heat in the sun, then I washed with water twice because I'm afraid of anything and even the vinegar! I'll definitely bake the sticks next time! Thank you!


Im the same exact way, if i wash with soap i rinse again and again and again cause im afraid of any remaining bits of soap, even if it looks to be gone i will still rinse again to be sure, and even then im still worried! its cause our mantids are our babies lol

Youre welcome, thanks for sharing the results of the testing with us, its a help to us all


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## Krissim Klaw (Jan 20, 2015)

It would be interesting to also test some of the crickets.

Personally I don't tend to worry about mites. Most species are harmless and only become problematic if they reach extreme numbers and stress out the other animals in the cage or outsource them for the food such as when mites take over fruit fly cultures. In more natural set ups, having a clean up crew like springtails, isopods, lesser mealworms, and such can help prevent and naturally keep mite numbers low.


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## [email protected] (Jan 21, 2015)

Thank you. I had no idea about the mites. I freaked at first.

That's a good idea about testing the crickets. I'm not sure the best way though. I'll have to ask my professor.


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## dmina (Jan 21, 2015)

I had a mite infestation twice...they were harmless...nothing died from... just a pain to get rid of..

I first got them in fruit fly culture... and then in meal worms... so they can be anywhere and everywhere.. also check nozzles of your water bottles.. the congregate there and breed...

Mite paper helps


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## [email protected] (Jan 22, 2015)

Oh wow! Thank you. I haven't found the mites anywhere else. I'm thankful for that.

Another thing I just realized is that the mantid that I tested, just ate fruit flies which are in a medium containing yeast. I wonder if that yeast is why her puke tested positive for candida.

I don't know anything. All I can do it try to be a careful and clean as possible.


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## dmina (Jan 24, 2015)

That is what I love about the forum.. sometimes just tossing stuff back and forth... opens up another door... like they say... it takes a village. (or forum)


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## MantidBro (Jan 24, 2015)

dmina said:


> That is what I love about the forum.. sometimes just tossing stuff back and forth... opens up another door... like they say... it takes a village. (or forum)


Agreed!

Lol i like your gifs


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## MantidLord (Feb 10, 2015)

I'm not sure what microbes mantids naturally have in their midgut, which could contribute to what you found. Usually microbes that insects contain in their gut will help either break stuff down to provide them with essential amino acids.

And I also don't know the pH of mantids (as a rule usually insect guts are more alkaline than vertebrate, but who really studies mantis physiology -_-).


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## dmina (Feb 10, 2015)

Well maybe they should be studied?


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## [email protected] (Mar 6, 2015)

II wish I had time to study. Another interesting finding though:

I put the puke of a dying mantid in a petri dish for all kinds of bacteria. I put in outside in my storage and forgot about it. last night I looked and there was all sorts of bacteria. The interesting thing is that it survived in cold temps of 40 degrees F.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 7, 2015)

This is really nice to see you did that. I use bleach and have never had a problem with it, use bleach. It is used to purify water for drinking so a little left somewhere won't kill them, but it will kill all the germs.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 7, 2015)

On another note, I used to see mites in cultures I got from other people, all were white except the ones from josh frogs, they were big and yellowish, which were

probably white at one time.


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## aNisip (Mar 9, 2015)

Do you have access to other kinds of agar? I really have been wanting to test this, but just hadn't had any sick mantids lately to try with. MacCokney's agar only allows gram (-) to grow, like you said, but also the agar could have been expired...definitely worth trying again....but I feel like a fungal infection wouldn't cause mantids to be sick so quick after ingestion of an "infected" prey item. I feel like the cause of the notorious mantis "black death" (frequent puking of foul dark liquid until imminent death, or chronic diarrhea) is of bacterial cause. I would like to see the following (in no particular order) kinds of agar tested:

Blood Agar

LB (Luria Bertani) Agar

Miller's LB Agar

Nutrient Agar

Tryptic Soy Agar

XLD Agar (Xylose lysine deoxycholate)

Granted some of them would be more difficult to obtain due to their selectivity in terms of allowing which (potentially) harmful pathogens to grow and thrive, such as the Blood, Tryptic Soy and XLD agar...

Also, you could probably just take some frass from a healthy mantis, add it to some sterile water and make a thin paste and then inoculate some Nutrient Agar to find out what kind of naturally occurring microbes thrive in the mantis gut (it would likely differ depending on diet, species, environment and wild caught vs captive bred) as mantids have no way of passing the same gut microbes to their offspring, unlike termites who depend on the trophallaxis from older termite to younger instar to transfer the necessary protozoan spp.)

However, I have wondered about trying to administer an antibiotic to the mantis with black death. (Dissolve the antibiotic in water and add some honey to make it "appealing", then feed via dropper or syringe) I have no idea if it would work, but so far honey only seems to work some of the times.


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## [email protected] (Mar 12, 2015)

Right now, I only have access to the tryptic soy agar. That is the one I used last and found all kinds of bacteria. I just haven't had time to figure out how to ID the bacteria.

Right now, I have a previously very healthy mantid that has the black death symptoms which occurred immediately after ingesting a (dying/ dehydrated?) meal worm (may have been wax, I forgot what I gave her). She is still strong, but she will not eat. I know I will loose her. Besides honey, I am trying the colloidal silver. I guess there would be no harm in trying an antibiotic. I just don't want her to suffer if the antibiotic is too strong.

Anyway, I'll test her. I find it so strange that a worm that was mostly in the fridge could kill her.

I'm really upset. I was wondering too if maybe the worm had some kind of enzymes activated to digest it as it was dying. Could those enzymes be passed to the mantid? My mantid had just laid an ooth and she was maybe dehydrated.

I don't know. I'll test her with the tryptic soy agar and post the results.


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## [email protected] (Mar 13, 2015)

Today I grabbed a couple tryptic soy agars and a blood agar. I have a second sick mantid from the worms. I feel so helpless.

I think I will try some amoxicillin like you suggested.


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## aNisip (Mar 14, 2015)

the ooth should be fine (_should _being the key word) however its difficult to tell "bad" food from good food.... if this is any help, I've never had black death from feeding roaches, plus they are pretty easy to culture. There really is not much else to do. Most cases of black death kill the mantis, Ive only seen/heard of maybe 5% surviving it, then dying a "naturally-timed" death. I dont mean to be pessimistic, but the outcome isn't usually too good. Keep what you are doing and let us know how the antibiotic works...(first try a very very very dilute solution) ...then like a normal case of antibiotics try getting her on a schedule... good luck and keep us updated


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## [email protected] (Mar 15, 2015)

I used a speck of my cat's antibiotic (like the size of a pin head) for my 2 dying mantids. I never would have if I thought they had any chance of survival.

DON'T EVER USE ANTIBIOTIC!!!

They were dead in hours and turned to moosh. They probably suffered too. I can't forgive myself for this. I should have just let them die in peace.


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## aNisip (Mar 16, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> I used a speck of my cat's antibiotic (like the size of a pin head) for my 2 dying mantids. I never would have if I thought they had any chance of survival.
> 
> DON'T EVER USE ANTIBIOTIC!!!
> 
> They were dead in hours and turned to moosh. They probably suffered too. I can't forgive myself for this. I should have just let them die in peace.


Sorry to hear :blush: 

Don't put this on yourself...if anything, I'll take the blame, as I mentioned it in the first place... they didn't have much longer to live, and they would've just died from the sickness and it would've prolonged their suffering. They wouldn't have died in peace. They would've died likely from dehydration and/or the actual infection/cause of the puking. Sorry for your loss, but dont loose hope. Loosing them is the most difficult part, sadly, it comes with the hobby. We get so much joy from watching them and being apart of their lives, that we forget how short of a time we have with them.


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## [email protected] (Mar 19, 2015)

DO NOT GIVE ANTIBIOTICS EVEN LOW LOW DOSE!!! I would not have tried it if there was any hope. The antibiotics killed them in hours and turned them to moosh! I'm afraid they suffered. This was the most disturbing experiment I have conducted. I feel awful.


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## Peter Clausen (Mar 20, 2015)

Interesting stuff.

I wonder if the little white specks were mites vs. springtails vs. booklice. I've seen all three appear out of thin air, now and then. Also I wonder if they weren't attracted to the agar itself ,or even a film on the container. All three of these animals probably live in many homes at a given moment. Even now the colony of mites living on my forehead are all, in unison, nodding approvingly.

Pretty neat to read about somebody culturing mantis gut fauna. If you're Thomas Edison I guess you only have to fail 9,998 more times before your science succeeds. Thanks for sharing!


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## Trundlebug (May 10, 2015)

Interesting! You probably won't be able to ID bacteria just by culturing (you'll likely need a lab and pcr for that), but to see if it's gram positive or gram negative is helpful.

Right now I actually work on the bacteria in the guts of kissing bugs, and let me tell you, there is quite a lot! All insects have symbiotic bacteria in their gut that helps them digest their meals... my guess is that, since the 'black death' seems cricket related, it's a pathogen from the cricket side based on what they've been eating. It might not really be affecting the crickets enough to be noticeable, but the pathogen might be wreaking havoc with a mantid's symbiotic bacteria. Crickets are scavengers and will eat all sorts of delightful, disgusting things, even in controlled environments!

Anyway, that's just a theory. This is all super interesting though. I might look up to see if there are any published findings about mantids in general.


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## mantisman 230 (May 11, 2015)

I only use honey with its low power antibiotics, it works a charm.


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