# Black fluid in thorax, clogged mouth



## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 6, 2015)

Last night a Chinese molted to l7. I noticed soon after it finished that it was starting to vomit something black out of it's mouth. It also had some ominous dark sections in the "neck" area of his thorax, which I assumed was the stuff it was throwing up. The drop of black stuff solidified in it's mouth and on closer inspection his mouth looks disfigured, however this could also be the black stuff pushing the mandible out on one side. I can tell that the dark stuff in it's thorax is liquid because it's being rhythmically pumped up and down.

The stuff in his mouth is preventing it from eating. I fed it a moth and he grabbed it and tried to eat it, but the stuff clogging his mouth (which may have been deformed in the molt) stopped him and after a couple minutes the mantis gave up and released it unharmed.

So, is this the "Black Death" disease or "vomiting"? Are those two syndromes the same thing? Or is it something else?

http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/salmonsaladsandwic/media/image.jpg1_zpsg9nmi68n.jpg.html

http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/salmonsaladsandwic/media/image.jpg2_zpscwcbcncc.jpg.html?sort=3&amp;o=1


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## CosbyArt (Aug 6, 2015)

Typical mantis vomit is a brown/reddish color, if you are seeing black I was suspect it isn't just vomit. On your second photo it does appear the mouth palps are extended and stuck in the substance. I would suggest you put drops of water around it's mouth and mist the enclosure to see if it can help get the substance off (do not rub as you will cause more damage).

If your mantis gets it's mouth free, give it some honey to help with the vomiting. Hopefully someone has some other tips to get it's mouth cleared.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 6, 2015)

I managed to remove the stuff on the outside with water, but unfortunately it's also on the inside of his mouth and it hasn't come out.

I can get it honey tommorow.


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## CosbyArt (Aug 6, 2015)

Great to hear you got it dissolved on the outside at least. Keep trying drops of water occasionally and hopefully it can take care of the rest. Best of luck, and keep us posted.


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## MantisMatt14 (Aug 7, 2015)

What has this mantis been fed?


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 7, 2015)

Update: even though I didn't have a chance to give it honey until now, dark fluid in its neck seems to have reduced and migrated up closer to the mantis's head. I just gave it some honey mixed with water. This morning I tried feeding it a small, soft katydid nymph to see if he could eat solid food now (probably not) but he seemed disinterested, probably from the stress caused when I removed some of the dried up vomit from his mouth. (Which appears to have been misshapen, perhaps because he vomited just after completing a molt and the black stuff hardened in his mouth before his exoskeleton did.)



MantisMatt14 said:


> What has this mantis been fed?


Mostly small dubia roaches, also grasshoppers, flies and moths. No pet store crickets.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 7, 2015)

Earlier today:

http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/salmonsaladsandwic/media/image.jpg2_zpskgh0lprw.jpg.html?sort=3&amp;o=1

Just now:

http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/salmonsaladsandwic/media/image.jpg1_zpsx8ykzlkt.jpg.html?sort=3&amp;o=2

Compare those to the picture from yesterday, he looks better.


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## CosbyArt (Aug 7, 2015)

Glad to see he is doing better, and it is a great improvement in the photos. That is great news that he got some honey too, it will help.

Hopefully when he recovers a bit more he can manage to use his mouth properly, at least enough to eat. If not you can try to feed it some mashed up bugs, or waxworms/mealworms or such, using tweezers to stimulate it moving and get him to eat that.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 8, 2015)

I tried to feed him some roach guts. I wouldn't really call it a success, mostly he just nibbled at it for a second or two, brushed it away with his arms and then nibbled the juice on his arms. He definitely ate at least a tiny bit but didn't get much of a meal... It would probably be easier if I liquified the stuff but that would be really messy and most of it would drip away.

In any case getting enough nutrition in him to get him to the next molt is going to be extremely tedious.

The problem seems to be that he doesn't want to eat, he's not in the mood for eating when my fingers are in his face and just brushes it away. So I wonder if I can get him to eat by impaling a roach that's been split in half on a piece of fishing line and wiggling it around, then maybe he'll be able to slurp the soft innards out.


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## CosbyArt (Aug 8, 2015)

Salmonsaladsandwich said:


> I tried to feed him some roach guts. I wouldn't really call it a success, mostly he just nibbled at it for a second or two, brushed it away with his arms and then nibbled the juice on his arms. He definitely ate at least a tiny bit but didn't get much of a meal... It would probably be easier if I liquified the stuff but that would be really messy and most of it would drip away.
> 
> In any case getting enough nutrition in him to get him to the next molt is going to be extremely tedious.
> 
> The problem seems to be that he doesn't want to eat, he's not in the mood for eating when my fingers are in his face and just brushes it away. So I wonder if I can get him to eat by impaling a roach that's been split in half on a piece of fishing line and wiggling it around, then maybe he'll be able to slurp the soft innards out.


Hey that is still great news, as he has a clear passage in his mouth again!  

Your hand may have something to do with, try the thumbtack method (see the posts for complete details). That trick has saved many members mantises until their next molts, and I think in one case as a adult too.

For a true liquid feeding you can use whole milk, as mentioned by Sticky her mantis lived over 2 months on the diet (so that is more than enough time to get him to his next molt if needed).

There may be some other tips on the forum, but those are the ones I found.


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## birdiefu (Aug 8, 2015)

Glad that he seems to be improving! Some of the inappetence may be related to recently molting, so hopefully it picks up again shortly. Good luck


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 8, 2015)

CosbyArt said:


> Hey that is still great news, as he has a clear passage in his mouth again!
> 
> Your hand may have something to do with, try the thumbtack method (see the posts for complete details). That trick has saved many members mantises until their next molts, and I think in one case as a adult too.
> 
> ...


Oh perfect! I'll definitely have to try both the thumbtack and milk.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 9, 2015)

I fed her some milk- it's really easy to do with an eyedropper. Also I sexed her as female.

Funny thing is, I read the thread with the milk before but I just didn't remember it... Probably because I didn't have any mantises with messed up mouthparts then.


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## CosbyArt (Aug 10, 2015)

Sounds great, and lets hope her next molt comes soon for you both.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 10, 2015)

I'm reall hoping that milk has enough nutrition for her to actually grow... I'm worried that it might be too fatty and not have the right nutrients, so I'm also going to give her mashed roaches so she gets what milk might be missing.


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## Sticky (Aug 11, 2015)

I wouldnt worry about it being too fatty, this diet is only temporary, and whole milk has enzymes that reduced doesnt have. Alot of moths are very fatty and the mantids does suffer from eating them.

If you can, get some powdered bee pollen and mix that with the milk. I did that for my mantis Sticky.


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## Sticky (Aug 12, 2015)

How is she today?


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 12, 2015)

Oh, she's great! She had two halved roaches (which she grabs by herself after a while now) and some milk. She's become much tamer than all the other mantises, she barely moves when I take her out to feed her.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 12, 2015)

Also he black stuff that used to be clogging her mouth is totally gone, there's no trace of it. It's just one of her mandibles that's been bent to one side so she can't cut and chew.


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## CosbyArt (Aug 12, 2015)

Glad to hear she is doing great. Nice side-effect too, about her being tamer due to all the interaction.


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## Sticky (Aug 14, 2015)

I am so glad!!! Now she can grow up and molt and be normal mouth wize.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 14, 2015)

Here's a video I took of her today.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k4JpbiX5iX4


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## CosbyArt (Aug 14, 2015)

Salmonsaladsandwich said:


> Here's a video I took of her today.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k4JpbiX5iX4


She's doing great, eating solid foods. if she can eat like that no need to worry about milk or anything like that. Glad she got through her ordeal, should clear up on her next molt - nothing worse than losing one if you have any chance of saving them.  

The mobile link is throwing off the forum code (no video shown here directly) so here is the "standard" link


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## birdiefu (Aug 14, 2015)

Congrats on her recovering so far and eating yummy guts on her own! Always great to hear stories that turn out happy...fingers crossed she comes out in tip-top shape after her next molt


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 14, 2015)

Well, actually she can't really eating solid food... You can't tell in the video because of her arm in front of it, but her right mandible is completely useless. It takes her twice as long to eat a gob of roach guts than an uninjured mantis.

Although I have stopped giving her milk, because she started grabbing roach halves on her own and I noticed her vomiting the milk if I gave her too much.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 24, 2015)

Well today her appetite is reduced and her wing buds are looking a little swollen.


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## Mantis Man13 (Aug 25, 2015)

Probably going to molt.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 27, 2015)

She molted to adulthood this morning! Her mouth isn't perfect but it looks like she'll be able to eat fine. She came out pretty small but that was expected.


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## CosbyArt (Aug 27, 2015)

Salmonsaladsandwich said:


> She molted to adulthood this morning! Her mouth isn't perfect but it looks like she'll be able to eat fine. She came out pretty small but that was expected.


Best news I've heard in awhile, congrats it must be a relief. Glad to see she pulled through.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 27, 2015)

Here she is! She's really small.

http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/salmonsaladsandwic/media/image.jpg1_zpsuea2y6e5.jpg.html

And her mouth close up:

http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/salmonsaladsandwic/media/image.jpg2_zpsecocmrwl.jpg.html?sort=3&amp;o=1


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## CosbyArt (Aug 27, 2015)

Indeed part of her exoskeleton around her mouth on the right side appears to be thin/missing a bit; however, a vast improvement. Interesting that she is so small, is she about the same size as her sub-adult form?


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 27, 2015)

No, she's bigger than when she was a subadult. However even as a subadult she wasn't the biggest even though she was one of my most voracious feeders as a pre- subadult.


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## CosbyArt (Aug 27, 2015)

Salmonsaladsandwich said:


> No, she's bigger than when she was a subadult. However even as a subadult she wasn't the biggest even though she was one of my most voracious feeders as a pre- subadult.


Okay well she's doing good then.  I was curious nothing more. It is strange how some seem to be the runts of the ooth, and a few are even the giants too.


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## mantisman 230 (Aug 27, 2015)

Show a pic between the arms, might not be a chinese.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 27, 2015)

She hatched out of the same ooth as the other Chinese.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 28, 2015)

Bad news... She can't eat solid food.  I gave her a nice soft- bodied moth and she was chewing away at it for a good 15 minutes before she gave up and dropped it. I couldn't find any damage to it at all.

I guess this means I'll have to feed her soft stuff for the rest of her life.... It will be very difficult... And I'll have to be brave... It's going to take guts.


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## Sticky (Aug 28, 2015)

The milk is good. Get some bee pollen and mix that is. Its a great combination.


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## CosbyArt (Aug 28, 2015)

Salmonsaladsandwich said:


> Bad news... She can't eat solid food.  I gave her a nice soft- bodied moth and she was chewing away at it for a good 15 minutes before she gave up and dropped it. I couldn't find any damage to it at all.
> 
> I guess this means I'll have to feed her soft stuff for the rest of her life.... It will be very difficult... And I'll have to be brave... It's going to take guts.


Sorry to hear that.  Likely the damage was too much for one molt to fix, or happened too late to be repaired in time.

I have two handicapped mantids and are some of my favorite pets, perhaps due to the extra time and bond that has been formed from it. If you can continue feeding her it is a rewarding experience, but I know others have put them down too. I wish you the best with your decision.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 28, 2015)

I'm going to try to keep feeding her. After all she doesn't need to grow anymore.


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## mantisman 230 (Aug 28, 2015)

Well nevermind then xD I was thinking she may be a T. angustipennis, but I have had pygmy Chinese before.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Aug 30, 2015)

I gave her a nice fat cobweb spider and she managed to pierce the abdomen and eat it's contents by herself.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Sep 7, 2015)

She did this to a field cricket nymph! I guess I've been underestimating her.  

http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/salmonsaladsandwic/media/image.jpg1_zpsuiy0uget.jpg.html?o=0

Perhaps the fuzz is why she couldn't handle a moth.


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## Sticky (Sep 7, 2015)

Very good!


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## mantisman 230 (Sep 7, 2015)

glad she is feeding alright


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## CosbyArt (Sep 7, 2015)

Salmonsaladsandwich said:


> She did this to a field cricket nymph! I guess I've been underestimating her.
> 
> http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/salmonsaladsandwic/media/image.jpg1_zpsuiy0uget.jpg.html?o=0
> 
> Perhaps the fuzz is why she couldn't handle a moth.


Looks like you found a feeder she can eat herself, nice.  

Perhaps the difference between it and the moth was the age, as a younger feeder is more tender and bound to be easier to eat through.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Sep 7, 2015)

Yup. If she can eat that I'll bet she can eat a freshly molted roach too.


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