# No ooths?



## ashleenicole (Aug 31, 2016)

My female P. picta has been mature for around three months and has not laid any infertile ooths for me, should I be concerned? She is very large and her abdomen looks almost swollen. I have drastically cut back on how much I feed her because she looks like she might burst! I'm afraid of her getting too large and becoming injured if she were to fall, I also don't want to starve her though. Is there anything I can do for her, or am I just worrying too much? She has not been mated.


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## Rick (Aug 31, 2016)

She could be eggbound. You could try to give her additional perches and places to climb which may stimulate her to lay eggs.


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## CosbyArt (Sep 1, 2016)

I would have been concern long ago, as any adult female mantids I've raised lay their first ooths about 5-6 weeks after becoming an adult (around 40 days after their adult molt to first ooth is average from my record logs). If the female is mated or not will not affect how many she will lay or how soon she lays ooths.

Indeed follow Rick's advice and try to provide her more areas to lay - as some mantids can be really picky where they lay ooths and if they do not find what they like they will not lay one.


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## ashleenicole (Sep 1, 2016)

I knew it wasn't normal because my other adult female laid her first infertile ooth not too long after she matured. Her enclosure is already pretty furnished, but I'll try switching things around for her and see if that suits her. Hopefully with a change of scenery she will decide to lay. Thanks for the advice! 

Edit: I added a few more branches and climbing surfaces to her enclosure and she went right back to the lid. I'm going to try increasing humidity as well and see if that helps. Fingers crossed!


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## CosbyArt (Sep 2, 2016)

Best of luck, hopefully you can get something that will get her to lay her ooth. Another thing to try - If you have her by other mantids, you may want to move her somewhere that she will not see other mantids - she may feel stressed and holding out for a area alone to lay it.


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## ashleenicole (Sep 2, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> Best of luck, hopefully you can get something that will get her to lay her ooth. Another thing to try - If you have her by other mantids, you may want to move her somewhere that she will not see other mantids - she may feel stressed and holding out for a area alone to lay it.


Thank you for the advice! I've always kept a divider up between her and the others because she is such a hunter. Even as a little nymph she spent all of her time staring down her neighbors. I feel like I've done everything I can now to encourage her to lay, hopefully she decides it's finally time.


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## Rick (Sep 2, 2016)

If nothing else try to maybe free-range her on a house plant or something similar.


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## Rick (Sep 2, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> Best of luck, hopefully you can get something that will get her to lay her ooth. Another thing to try - If you have her by other mantids, you may want to move her somewhere that she will not see other mantids - she may feel stressed and holding out for a area alone to lay it.


This reminds me of something I observed several years ago. I came across an adult female Tenodera eating another adult female (or what was left of her). I looked around and realized that the female being consumed had been in the process of making an ooth when she was snatched up by the first female. That is something I had never witnessed but it makes me wonder how common it is. Being preyed on during egg laying may be a valid concern for mantids.


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## CosbyArt (Sep 3, 2016)

Rick said:


> This reminds me of something I observed several years ago. I came across an adult female Tenodera eating another adult female (or what was left of her). I looked around and realized that the female being consumed had been in the process of making an ooth when she was snatched up by the first female. That is something I had never witnessed but it makes me wonder how common it is. Being preyed on during egg laying may be a valid concern for mantids.


That would be a strange sight to come across, I haven't seen that before. With many captive mantids watching each other so close, I was curious if that happened. Thanks for your response, it definitely clears up the question.


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## ashleenicole (Sep 8, 2016)

Update: Even with the changes in enclosure and humidity she still has not laid.  Would bumping her temps up a bit help maybe? The room we keep our animals in tends to stay around 74-76.


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## Sarah K (Sep 8, 2016)

Rick said:


> This reminds me of something I observed several years ago. I came across an adult female Tenodera eating another adult female (or what was left of her). I looked around and realized that the female being consumed had been in the process of making an ooth when she was snatched up by the first female. That is something I had never witnessed but it makes me wonder how common it is. Being preyed on during egg laying may be a valid concern for mantids.


This reminds me of something I witnessed with my Wandering Violin females. One female laid an ooth, and than i moved her to another enclosure (the ooth was still there), and put another girl in there hoping that same cage would also inspire her to lay. Within an hour, that female had started eating the other's ooth! Didn't even know this was a risk!


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## Sarah K (Sep 8, 2016)

ashleenicole said:


> Update: Even with the changes in enclosure and humidity she still has not laid.  Would bumping her temps up a bit help maybe? The room we keep our animals in tends to stay around 74-76.


I'm sorry to hear that Ashlee.   I am not really sure if bumping the temperature up will help. Sometimes it seems certain females just won't lay, no matter what you do! I wish I had more suggestions, but anytime I thought any of my girls were eggbound, I was not ever able to get them to lay successfully, no matter what I tried. Best of luck!


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## CosbyArt (Sep 8, 2016)

ashleenicole said:


> Update: Even with the changes in enclosure and humidity she still has not laid.  Would bumping her temps up a bit help maybe? The room we keep our animals in tends to stay around 74-76.


It's worth trying to raise her temperature. For the species 70F to 82F is her temperature zone, so try at 80F for a few days to see if that makes a difference. The only caresheet on the species I could find was here.


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## ashleenicole (Sep 11, 2016)

Sarah K said:


> I'm sorry to hear that Ashlee.   I am not really sure if bumping the temperature up will help. Sometimes it seems certain females just won't lay, no matter what you do! I wish I had more suggestions, but anytime I thought any of my girls were eggbound, I was not ever able to get them to lay successfully, no matter what I tried. Best of luck!


Thanks for the kind words. Sadly nothing I have done has encouraged her to lay. Her abdomen seems really heavy and hard to support at this point, so I'm not sure what to do other than just let her be. I'm going to try raising the temp in the critter room/study a few degrees without making the other animals uncomfortable to see if that helps her. I have an extra heat lamp with a red bulb, but I'm afraid that would just dry out her enclosure.


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## LazarusMantid (Sep 22, 2016)

What ever happened?


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## ashleenicole (Sep 23, 2016)

Nothing yet. She still refuses to lay.


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## LazarusMantid (Sep 23, 2016)

But she's still alive? Any lethargy?


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## ashleenicole (Sep 25, 2016)

She's still alive and always eager to eat when I feed her. Other than not laying any ooths she seems perfectly healthy, I'm a bit puzzled.


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## LazarusMantid (Oct 2, 2016)

Well at least she's still alive and seems to have a quality of life!


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## crabbypatty (Nov 25, 2016)

@ashleenicole what ever happened with your female? I'm having the same problem with mine, but now she's becoming lethargic, she molted to adulthood 9/9/16


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## ashleenicole (Nov 29, 2016)

@crabbypatty, my girl matured at the end of May and is still alive right now, although she has never laid me a single ooth. She has slowed down a lot and her health is declining, but I think that has more to do with her age. I'm sorry to hear you're having the same problem! This is the first time I've dealt with it, so I don't have much advice.


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## crabbypatty (Nov 29, 2016)

@ashleenicole unfortunately I had to put my girl down a few days ago, no ooths and her health spiraled downward, she could no longer take water at the end


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## CosbyArt (Nov 30, 2016)

ashleenicole said:


> @crabbypatty, my girl matured at the end of May and is still alive right now, although she has never laid me a single ooth. She has slowed down a lot and her health is declining, but I think that has more to do with her age. I'm sorry to hear you're having the same problem! This is the first time I've dealt with it, so I don't have much advice.


Indeed at 6 months as an adult, it is most likely old age. It however is amazing she did so well without being able to lay a ooth.  



crabbypatty said:


> @ashleenicole unfortunately I had to put my girl down a few days ago, no ooths and her health spiraled downward, she could no longer take water at the end


I'm sorry to hear your girl's health decreased so quickly.  At least you did what you could for her, and that itself speaks to your love and devotion to your pets.


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