# Habitat for Malaysian dead leafs



## Mystymantis (Nov 8, 2016)

So I am making a habitat/ new home for my Malaysian dead leaf mantises. I am making something similar to what Gekkonidae made (thanks for the great idea!).  I am using a small glass aquarium, I think its 2 and a half gallons?  and I am going to partition it into 3 different parts. One part for each mantis. I am using fish tank dividers, cutting them and sizing them up for the dividers. I have several fish tank dividers around that I won't be using anytime soon so I decided to use them. But my question is what would be the best way to make the tops so that humidity stay inside the container?  Right now I am planning on making 3 separate tops out of the fish tank dividers but I don't know if that will let out too much air or not let out enough, I don't want mold either. I will use a heater pad for the heat source. Is there anything else that they require?


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## CosbyArt (Nov 8, 2016)

@Mystymantis For those curious, the link to the build guide by Gekkonidae is here..



With the only ventilation from the very top of a aquarium, humidity will likely not be a issue. If much misting/watering is done, mold will be more of a problem.

Although if you do have a humidity problem, the most common solution is to cover some of the mesh to trap in more moisture - adjust the covering as needed as your room humidity changes too. Some easy methods is to use cling/plastic wrap (Saran wrap) covering the outside of the lids, placing flat sheets of plastic (such as the plastic school folders, typically $0.25-$0.75 each) over the mesh, hot gluing areas of the mesh closed (permanent), or similar methods.

A look at the care sheet though says the species requires plenty of ventilation, so covering the already limited ventilation would not be a good idea. In which case one method to raise humidity without messing with the lid/ventilation, would be to place a small bowl of water inside the habitat (ensuring the water bowl is filled with clean smooth gravel, marbles, or such to the top of the bowl so that it will prevent the mantis or it's feeders from drowning in the water). I did the bowl method originally with my millipedes with great success.

Tank dividers can be a problem, with a cannibalized mantis being the end result. If you do a divider make it fit tight (as close as possible) and secure it with hot glue otherwise a mantid can find their way over/through them as often happens. Also some mantises can be rather self-conscious or just flat out threatened if the divider is transparent/mesh where they can see one another - that can lead to issues with them eating properly, laying ooths, or injuring themselves trying to fight through a divider. So to fix that just use a opaque/solid divider, and if possible a divider a bit of thickness so they do not see each others shadows either (it can cause the same outcome).

Another thing is the recommended tank size for each Dead leaf mantis (Deroplatys desiccata) is 12" x 8" x 12" (30cm x 20cm x 30cm), with a 5 gallon tank (or smaller) being divided up I thought it should be pointed out as the size would likely become a problem.


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## Teamonger (Nov 9, 2016)

I loved Gekkonidae's build but I was worried about the lack of ventilation as well. I kept researching and found the following YouTube video. I am sure I must have found it via this forum but I cannot find the topic.

This build puts the tank on its side and puts a vent above and below a door constructed from the top. I was leaning toward doing this to my own 40 gallon tank. What do you think about this build @CosbyArt @Mystymantis

Personally I have found that keeping live moss in your tank greatly reduces the risk of mold no matter how humid or poorly ventilated your tank is (I've learned better but we all start with not the best). The only time I have ever found mold in my tanks that contained moss was if there were any dead flys or bug bits on top of it that began to mold. So a bit of house keeping was all that was needed.


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## Mystymantis (Nov 9, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> @Mystymantis For those curious, the link to the build guide by Gekkonidae is here..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very relevant concerns here thanks.  Well unfortunately the dividers are clear.... which might be a problem.  They are tightly secured inside the cage with hot glue covering up the holes so I don't think they can get through them. But I will somehow have to make them opaque? or make new dividers... Would putting a paper towel or cloth on one or both sides of the divider work?

But my other concern is the tops.  My dead leaf's right now are small, L3 I think. But they couldn't climb on the plastic tops I made out of the tank dividers, it was too slippery and not a good foot old even though there are lots of small holes in it. I have not put them in the new habitat yet, I was only testing it. So I taped paper towels onto the tops to give them better gripping footage, but I am not sure I like the design as I don't think much air will get through and as you said they need lots of ventilation. And yes, the size is a little smaller then I would like, but for now my main concern is getting them into a warmer environment because it is getting a lot colder where I am. And since they are still small I thought it would be ok for them for a little while. I did want to get a bigger tank, but decided to use the one I had.

 I could just use bigger tank size, and make new habitat dividers that are opaque and also make better tops with the new tank. I actually think I have a 10 gallon tank that I could use instead. But then I would have to remake everything! Would a 10 gallon be a better size? Although since they are so small now I would be worried they would never find food. Right now they are in 32 oz deli cups.

The dimensions of the small cage are: 12 inches long, about 8 inches tall, and 6 inches wide.


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## CosbyArt (Nov 9, 2016)

Mystymantis said:


> Very relevant concerns here thanks.  Well unfortunately the dividers are clear.... which might be a problem.  They are tightly secured inside the cage with hot glue covering up the holes. So I will somehow have to make them opaque? or make new dividers... Would putting a paper towel on one side work maybe?
> 
> But my other concern is the tops.  My dead leaf's right now are small, L3 I think. But they couldn't climb on the plastic tops I made out of the tank dividers, it was too slippery and not a good foot old even though there are lots of small holes in it. I have not put them in the new habitat yet, I was only testing it. So I taped paper towels onto the tops to give them better footage, but I am not sure I like the design as I don't think much air will get through and as you said they need lots of ventilation. And yes, the size is a little smaller then I would like, but for now my main concern is getting them into a warmer environment because it is getting a lot colder where I am. And since they are still small I thought it would be ok for them for a little while. I did want to get a bigger tank, but decided to use the one I had.


Not all mantids will have issues with the clear dividers, and as you already have them installed I would let it be and see how it goes. The paper towel covering the dividers would be a good option if needed, and still would allow for plenty of grip and ventilation (so that is a wonderful idea to try). Just watch the nymphs and see if it is a issue for them.

To combat the slippery lids a common trick is to use some 220 grit sandpaper (or more coarse, lower number) and sanding the surface to roughen it up for gripping. If that still doesn't help installing some plastic/fiberglass mesh through the lid with quick-ties even would be the best option (and not labor intensive either).  

Tape is a material that should not be used anywhere near or on your habitats. If a mantid accesses the sticky side it will trap them almost always permanently - with missing legs/limbs being the best outcome from removal of the trapped mantid (or death for the more unfortunate ones). In tape's place use mechanical fasteners (quick-ties, even bread ties, etc) or hot glue (if used in small drops can be removed easily too if needed later on).

I don't blame you, many of us have a wide range of habitat sizes for them as they progress (and usually quite a collection at that due to the large numbers of nymphs). As long as the nymphs have 3 times the height of their current length you will be good for molts.


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## Mystymantis (Nov 10, 2016)

How do you make the blue name thing appear for someone?


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## Mystymantis (Nov 10, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> Not all mantids will have issues with the clear dividers, and as you already have them installed I would let it be and see how it goes. The paper towel covering the dividers would be a good option if needed, and still would allow for plenty of grip and ventilation (so that is a wonderful idea to try). Just watch the nymphs and see if it is a issue for them.
> 
> To combat the slippery lids a common trick is to use some 220 grit sandpaper (or more coarse, lower number) and sanding the surface to roughen it up for gripping. If that still doesn't help installing some plastic/fiberglass mesh through the lid with quick-ties even would be the best option (and not labor intensive either).
> 
> ...




I have put my little guys into their new habitat and I think they really like it. I even had my largest one eat a tiny cricket today!  I will keep an eye on them with the clear dividers, so far all seems good. 

There might be a heating issue in the tank though, I am using a small heater pad, the kind that stick onto the glass, and because it is small it only heats the middle section of the tank to a nice 75-77 or so degrees. The other two compartments are about 70-73 degrees. So I was wondering would getting a bigger heater help distribute the heat better? Has anyone ever put a medium heating pad on such a tiny terrarium? I don't want to over heat the glass and cause it to break or make the middle section way too hot.

Where can I get plastic or figerglass mesh? Or some kind of fine netting? I have been trying to find a fine netting of some sort for a while but have not had much luck. Probably haven't looked hard enough though. I need a fine net or mesh because I am still feeding the mantises Hydei flies which can get out of the netting I currently have, which is why I use paper towels instead.

 I made perfect fitting tops with the fish divider but the small holes like I said might not let enough air through, especially with the paper towels. I will try sanding or getting a net for them.

And yes I agree, tape should never be used on anything near mantises, I usually try to avoid it. I was using it as a temporary solution and there was no way for the little guys to get into the tape. Otherwise I would have used something else if I thought they could get into it. Thanks though.


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## CosbyArt (Nov 10, 2016)

Mystymantis said:


> How do you make the blue name thing appear for someone?


Type the @ symbol and start typing their name, it will give a list of members that match that name (until only one name is left as you type) - click the name you want. Like @Mystymantis I will say though some browsers can have issues with the forum code that makes it happen (Javascript/PHP/or such, no idea as I don't have access), and nearly all smartphones have issues with the forum itself in other ways too.

If the name isn't clicked/selected and turns blue in the post, then the user will not be notified of the post and is pointless.  



Mystymantis said:


> I have put my little guys into their new habitat and I think they really like it. I even had my largest one eat a tiny cricket today!  I will keep an eye on them with the clear dividers, so far all seems good.
> 
> There might be a heating issue in the tank though, I am using a small heater pad, the kind that stick onto the glass, and because it is small it only heats the middle section of the tank to a nice 75-77 or so degrees. The other two compartments are about 70-73 degrees. So I was wondering would getting a bigger heater help distribute the heat better? Has anyone ever put a medium heating pad on such a tiny terrarium? I don't want to over heat the glass and cause it to break or make the middle section way too hot.
> 
> ...


Great to hear they are enjoying their new setup.  

Heat wise I personally always use a thermostat and recommend one for any heat source (to prevent overheating, failure problems, and mantid deaths). You can make one, see my guide here, or buy one as well (I bought several of those lately from the seller and they work amazing once wired).

Not sure of the heating pad brand you have, but from reviews on Amazon the Zilla brand one tends to run cooler, while the Zoo Med brand does much better. Which isn't that important, as what you really need is a longer/wider heat source to properly heat all the divided segments. Using a larger heating pad will still overheat one divided section (closest to the pad) while the others remain much cooler.

The solution is to get another small pad for the other tank end (one at each end) but with such a low heat temperature sounds like it will not help much, or use another heat source.

For example a quick fix is to get two desk lamps with incandescent bulbs, one for either end of the tank, and adjust it to properly heat the ends (the middle will get warmed as well from the ambient temperatures of the other sections). Another similar solution is a chicken brooder lamp and 125W red bulb - I bought them locally from Rural King and use them on my cricket tanks; while, it is much more than you need heat wise, a thermostat would make it heat to what you need properly.

The last solution seems to be exactly what is needed to heat all the tank sections properly at once, and that is either reptile heat tape (another here) or heat rope; however, with either you will have to have a thermostat as they can reach temperatures of 120F or more (great temperature report here too). It is a product I've spent some time researching and have been waiting to order soon, so if you have any questions about it I might be able to help.

The most common mesh used by keepers is the standard window/storm door fiberglass mesh, seems it comes in many colors lately (gray, tan, light gray, and the usual charcoal/black). The plastic/fiberglass screen mesh can be purchased at nearly any hardware section/aisle/store.

A metal/brass mesh to keep fruit flies in with nymphs is quite expensive (like those from the PetCo/PetSmart fruit fly cultures), and only sold in huge rolls (best I found was typically $180+shipping or much more). The great alternative is to use organza fabric mesh, and it can be found in most fabric/hobby/aisles or stores. Sometimes (like at Walmart) it is sold as ribbon fabric in 4" wide spools. I use it now exclusively on my mantid nymph tanks (and my arachnid habitats) and the fruit fly culture lids themselves too, and not a single issue anywhere in over a year.


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## Mystymantis (Nov 17, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> Type the @ symbol and start typing their name, it will give a list of members that match that name (until only one name is left as you type) - click the name you want. Like @Mystymantis I will say though some browsers can have issues with the forum code that makes it happen (Javascript/PHP/or such, no idea as I don't have access), and nearly all smartphones have issues with the forum itself in other ways too.
> 
> If the name isn't clicked/selected and turns blue in the post, then the user will not be notified of the post and is pointless.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for all the ideas and information!

I have a small Zoo med heater or 1-5 gallons. I have mine on the side of the tank right now, and was wondering if I put it on the bottom it might heat better? But would I need a substrate if it is on the bottom? 

Right now I will try to get a light set up to warm them. What about reptile heating lamps? would those work or are they generally the same thing as a incubator lamp?

But in the future I might want to consider the heat tape or heat cord. Which is better? But I have concerns for the heat tape like how hot it gets. And I am not sure how the thermostat hooks up to the tape, which is confusing.

Organza sounds perfect, I will have to look for some next time I am out.


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## CosbyArt (Nov 17, 2016)

Mystymantis said:


> Thanks so much for all the ideas and information!
> 
> I have a small Zoo med heater or 1-5 gallons. I have mine on the side of the tank right now, and was wondering if I put it on the bottom it might heat better? But would I need a substrate if it is on the bottom?
> 
> ...


Your welcome, and glad it helped.  

As heat travels upwards it would help if you placed the heat pad on the bottom. Substrate would help better diffuse/radiate the heat more than simply rising into air too.

Heat lamps can easily exceed 120F within minutes, and likely you could not place it far enough away to help get rid of the excess heat. You would have to have a thermostat for sure, especially if trying any of the basking type lights.

The difference between the heating tape or cords depends on your setup. Heating tape is placed behind the habitat, recommended to be mounted on a flat wooden board for safety, and it radiates outwards. Heating cords are typically zig-zagged under the tank itself (like placing many W's together like WWWWW for the length of the tank/cord).

The thermostats work as a on/off power source - the heating element power cord plugs into the electrical outlet on the thermostat itself (instead of to the wall - the thermostat acts like a surge protector in that regard). The thermostat then turns the heating element off/on as programmed for the heat temperature.


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## Mystymantis (Nov 21, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> Your welcome, and glad it helped.
> 
> As heat travels upwards it would help if you placed the heat pad on the bottom. Substrate would help better diffuse/radiate the heat more than simply rising into air too.
> 
> ...


So I got a heating cable, exo terra 15w cable. I tested it in the terrarium, with the mantises out of the terrarium, and it got to about 80 degrees, but it probably could get a lot hotter since I only ran it for a few hours. Do I need a substrate if I use a heating cable on the bottom of the tank? The glass did get kind of hot and was probably more then 80 degrees. I got some coconut fiber that can be used as a substrate, but haven't put it in yet.  Is coconut fiber a substrate that won't mold?

What about if I put the heating cable on the sides of the tank? Would the glass get too hot? I don't want to harm the mantises if the glass gets too hot.

So I am guessing I probably should get a thermostat to use with the heating cable. I looked a few up and was wondering if the Zoo MED ReptiTemp 500R Terrarium Thermostat is good. I am not sure I like how the temperature is set with a dial and no precise numbers. And how it compares to the one you suggested earlier by inkbird. Does the one you suggested earlier work with a heat cable? as in does it have a plug for the heat cable or does it use a different type of connection? Because as far as I can tell by looking at the thermostat by inkbird it has no plug connections and you have to somehow wire it? Which won't work with the plug.

What about this thermostat? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01486LZ50?psc=1 

Sadly I lost one of the little guys a few days ago  . But I have since made their home into only 2 compartments which should allow for better heating for the 2 remaining mantises. 

Does the habitat need a thermostat? Or could I just put in the coconut fiber? Has anyone done a setup like this without a thermostat?


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## CosbyArt (Nov 22, 2016)

@Mystymantis Substrate will help diffuse the heat into the tank, but it can also cause the heating cable to retain heat as well (as it takes longer for the heat to travel/pass through the substrate). So you may be better off providing a bit of a air gap between the heating cable and the tank bottom, by inserting spacers under the tank. Yes, coconut fiber is naturally resistant to mold and bacteria, sphagnum peat moss is as well, but coconut is even more so.

You can attach the heat cable to the sides, but will get less heat reaching the tank interior. Glass can handle oven temperatures of 500+F without a problem, so heat should not be any issue. The problem with glass is any rapid heating and cooling, leading to thermal expansion and cracks forming in the glass (so kitchen oven glass is tempered to prevent problems from rapid heat/cooling - such as pouring cold water onto hot glass). The heating cable should not be able to heat the glass rapidly enough to cause cracks, unless the glass is really cold and the heating cable has already been on awhile and it is applied to the glass - perhaps from experimenting/testing of the tank it could be a problem.

Yes, any heat source should have a thermostat to turn off the heat source when the proper temperature is reached (and turn it back on as needed) - as heating cables and other sources when plugged in are on and heating constantly until they are unplugged. The InkBird ITC-1000F I use can handle any heat source up to 10 watts, and actually can control a cooling device too. The only downside to it is that you will have to manually hook-up the wiring to that thermostat, if that is a problem a pre-wired and digital thermostat is the InkBird ITC-308 and the #1 thermostat on Amazon (of course you pay more than double for the convenience). Yes, if you use the ITC-1000F you will need to wire in a electrical outlet (see link) or cut and strip the cord to hook-up directly.

The InkBird ITC-306T you linked to will work as well, but how it compares to the ITC-308 is something you'll need to decide.

A thermostat is not required if you use other heating sources as I discussed above, but if you use a constant heat source such as heating cable/rope you will need a thermostat.


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## Mystymantis (Nov 27, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> @Mystymantis Substrate will help diffuse the heat into the tank, but it can also cause the heating cable to retain heat as well (as it takes longer for the heat to travel/pass through the substrate). So you may be better off providing a bit of a air gap between the heating cable and the tank bottom, by inserting spacers under the tank. Yes, coconut fiber is naturally resistant to mold and bacteria, sphagnum peat moss is as well, but coconut is even more so.
> 
> You can attach the heat cable to the sides, but will get less heat reaching the tank interior. Glass can handle oven temperatures of 500+F without a problem, so heat should not be any issue. The problem with glass is any rapid heating and cooling, leading to thermal expansion and cracks forming in the glass (so kitchen oven glass is tempered to prevent problems from rapid heat/cooling - such as pouring cold water onto hot glass). The heating cable should not be able to heat the glass rapidly enough to cause cracks, unless the glass is really cold and the heating cable has already been on awhile and it is applied to the glass - perhaps from experimenting/testing of the tank it could be a problem.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I will probably use the coconut fiber substrate then.

Ok so I have another question about the thermostat, for the InkBird ITC-308  thermostat does it have to have a heating and cooling thing attached? Because I have a heating cable, but I don't have something to cool, the heating cable will just turn off when it reaches the temperature and then turn back on when it goes below the set temperature correct? It doesn't need some sort of thing to make it cool right?  Or doesn't need a cooling product plugged in for it to function properly does it? From looking at the ITC 308 and the ITC 306 it seems they function slightly differently, so now I am confused as to which one is what I need.


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## CosbyArt (Nov 27, 2016)

Mystymantis said:


> Thank you! I will probably use the coconut fiber substrate then.
> 
> Ok so I have another question about the thermostat, for the InkBird ITC-308  thermostat does it have to have a heating and cooling thing attached? Because I have a heating cable, but I don't have something to cool, the heating cable will just turn off when it reaches the temperature and then turn back on when it goes below the set temperature correct? It doesn't need some sort of thing to make it cool right?  Or doesn't need a cooling product plugged in for it to function properly does it? From looking at the ITC 308 and the ITC 306 it seems they function slightly differently, so now I am confused as to which one is what I need.


Nope. It is just a convenience in case you need them both, much like a thermostat with a humidifier option too - you can run just heating.  

With a thermostat set to the temperature you want it to turn off at, it will turn off the heat, same for turning it back on.

Well the 306-T model is a dual time cycle that has two heater options, to vary the heat depending on the time of day set. So unless you want to get fancy with a daytime temperature, and another setting for night, the 308 model is the one you want.  

The 306-T model page, and the 308 page.


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## Mystymantis (Dec 7, 2016)

@CosbyArt I got the 308 model and it is working great! Heating is working perfectly.

However I now have a new problem.  When I turn on the cable heating which is under the tank, the humidity sky rockets to 99% and the front and back sides of the glass are covered in moisture/condensation.  Now I didn't have this problem before I added the substrate, which is coconut fiber. I assumed it was because it was still too wet. So I dried out the coconut fiber all day yesterday with a fan, and now it is dry looking but the humidity still sky rocketed and condensation still appeared on the sides of the tank. The top of the terrarium is that craft grid so it has plenty of wholes, but if I take the tops off the humidity goes down. Does anyone else have this problem with glass tanks?  Is there any way to fix it? Or perhaps my humidity readings are too sensitive and it isn't actually that humid in the tank. Because the coconut fiber is dryish looking which makes me wonder how I still get a 99% humidity reading.


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## CosbyArt (Dec 7, 2016)

Mystymantis said:


> @CosbyArt I got the 308 model and it is working great! Heating is working perfectly.
> 
> However I now have a new problem.  When I turn on the cable heating which is under the tank, the humidity sky rockets to 99% and the front and back sides of the glass are covered in moisture/condensation.  Now I didn't have this problem before I added the substrate, which is coconut fiber. I assumed it was because it was still too wet. So I dried out the coconut fiber all day yesterday with a fan, and now it is dry looking but the humidity still sky rocketed and condensation still appeared on the sides of the tank. The top of the terrarium is that craft grid so it has plenty of wholes, but if I take the tops off the humidity goes down. Does anyone else have this problem with glass tanks?  Is there any way to fix it? Or perhaps my humidity readings are too sensitive and it isn't actually that humid in the tank. Because the coconut fiber is dryish looking which makes me wonder how I still get a 99% humidity reading.


If there is condensation on the glass then the substrate is wet to the point of being saturated (not needed by any mantid species). Coconut fiber holds lots of water and will release the water as it dries (why it is a recommended substrate material), the heat is just releasing it quicker than room temperature.

If you take some of the substrate and squeeze it together in your hand does water drip or flow out? It should be dry to the touch.

The common recommended mantid watering method is to spray enough misted water that it forms water droplets, but evaporates in 30 minutes or less (usually only takes 5-10 seconds of spraying, but will need to be adjusted to your tank size/humidity). Depending on your humidity misting may have to be done more often (especially in all mesh cages), or less like once every few days. You will have to simply adjust your misting as needed, and at no point do you need to pour water onto the substrate.

As the substrate is wet the only thing you can do is turn the heat on and allow it to dry, in the meantime I would recommend you move your mantid(s) to another container until it dries out.


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## Mystymantis (Dec 7, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> If there is condensation on the glass then the substrate is wet to the point of being saturated (not needed by any mantid species). Coconut fiber holds lots of water and will release the water as it dries (why it is a recommended substrate material), the heat is just releasing it quicker than room temperature.
> 
> If you take some of the substrate and squeeze it together in your hand does water drip or flow out? It should be dry to the touch.
> 
> ...


The coconut fiber looks dry in most places. So I am assuming there is still too much water, even though it looks dry, in it from when I initially put water on it to spread it out.  So I will continue to dry it, and hope it doesn't keep having condensation once it looks absolutely dry.  Thanks.


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## Jessie (Jul 11, 2017)

Is a netting cage ok? And my room temp is always 70 thsts not ok?


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## Jessie (Jul 11, 2017)

View attachment 9420


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## Jessie (Jul 12, 2017)

Would a tank like this be ok? View attachment 9423


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## Mystymantis (Jul 12, 2017)

@JessieThey seem to like warmer temperatures, so if the temperatures are at or below 70 I would suggest having a heater. Even at just 70 is probably a little low for them. They like it warm! I can post a picture of my habitat if you would like.

I think the second tank, the glass one, would be a better fit for Dead leaf's. Net cages are hard to heat, unless you have a heat lamp on it constantly. Just make sure there is ventilation. I really like your tank set up by the way.


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## Jessie (Jul 12, 2017)

@Mystymantis i have my room i csn set to 75 with a hewter in my room and thanks my bf helped me. Would a hewter in my room help to?


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## Jessie (Jul 12, 2017)

The ventilation is a screen top like aquariums have.


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## Mystymantis (Jul 12, 2017)

75 should be a good temperature. A heater in the room would help too, especially if you wanted to make it warmer.


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## Jessie (Jul 13, 2017)

Can i blow it towards the cage?


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## Mystymantis (Jul 13, 2017)

I wouldn't blow it towards the cage. I think the humidity would really drop if the heat was blowing on the cage and it would make the cage really dry. Just blowing in the room to make it warmer should be enough.


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