# Why do some websites refer to nymphs as larvae?



## AFK (Jun 21, 2007)

I've always understood the term, "larvae," is used strictly for the non-adult form of invertebrates that don't resemble their parents, e.g. beetle larvae look completely different from adults. Mantis young are definitely nymphs, so why do some websites call them nymphs? Incorrect translation? I've noticed most of these sites are made by non-native English speakers.


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## Rob Byatt (Jun 21, 2007)

Well spotted AFK. This is something that is very important to me.

Insects that resemble the adult when young apart from the lack of wings, are indeed referred to as nymphal stages (incomplete metamorphosis). Larvae are generally the young of insects that undergo complete metamorphosis (beetles, lepidoptera....)

The reason you see 'L' everywhere is because most mantids are bred in Germany/France before the UK - they use L as an abbreviation of Larven.

In the UK instar has ALWAYS been the correct term for an immature insect, it is only because of dealers that buy ntmphs from other Eoropean countries with the prefix L, but do not understand that there is already a term for it here.

Just to verify what I said, here is the reference;

The intervals between the ecdyses are known as stages or _stadia_, and the form assumed by an insect during a particular stadium is termed an _instar_. (Imms, A.D. 1964. A general Textbook af Entomology. London: Methuen &amp; Co. inc.. p.222.)

In all English speaking countries, this is the term that should be used.

Rob.


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## AFK (Jun 21, 2007)

i agree about the instar thing. i've always understood "instar" as the term to use when referring to a nymphal stage. it can also be used to refer to a larval stage as well.

so is it generally agreed that this is a translation problem?


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## OGIGA (Jun 21, 2007)

I think these L's have been adopted into the English language now. Think about how many words we all use that aren't English words. Examples (without accent marks): RSVP, naive, resume, larven


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## Asa (Jun 21, 2007)

> I think these L's have been adopted into the English language now. Think about how many words we all use that aren't English words. Examples (without accent marks): RSVP, naive, resume, larven


...razz :lol:


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## AFK (Jun 21, 2007)

it should not be called larva/larven for consistency's sake. by definition, mantis young are simply not larva. they are nymphs.

hobbyists who are not professional entomologists do make entomological mistakes.


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## Asa (Jun 21, 2007)

> it should not be called larva/larven for consistency's sake. by definition, mantis young are simply not larva. they are nymphs.hobbyists who are not professional entomologists do make entomological mistakes.


Well you're looking at one and the proper word for a young mantis would be instar. I like to call them nymphs until their first molt, then they are instars, then they are adults.


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## AFK (Jun 22, 2007)

i would like to see entomological literature that states that, asa.  

"instar" is a term to describe the stage that a nymph *or* larva is at.

a young mantis is a nymph all the way until adulthood. its instar is referred to describe how many molts it has gone through.


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## Rob Byatt (Jun 22, 2007)

> I think these L's have been adopted into the English language now. Think about how many words we all use that aren't English words. Examples (without accent marks): RSVP, naive, resume, larven


Yes, I see your point, but those words are derivatives of another language, not abbreviations mde by people that do not understand. You could say that about all languages then, a lot are derived from Latin.

The point it, we already have instar. That is the correct term.


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## Asa (Jun 22, 2007)

> i would like to see entomological literature that states that, asa.  "instar" is a term to describe the stage that a nymph *or* larva is at.
> 
> a young mantis is a nymph all the way until adulthood. its instar is referred to describe how many molts it has gone through.


I'm not arguing with that. I just said that's what I like to call them. Sorry if it was confusing.


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## robo mantis (Jun 22, 2007)

lol Asa


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## Christian (Jun 22, 2007)

There was another topic on this here, but I didn't find it.

Rob made the same mistake again... sorry, Rob. :lol: 

The "L" is the abbreviation for "Larven*stadium*", which means "instar". One larva is called "Larve", pl. "Larven".

We really call also nymphs "Larve/n". This is often used for all immature stages except pupae, even though it should be applied just to hemimetabolous insects. I see no problem in it, as long as you know the correct meaning if necessary. Name it convention or laziness... :lol: 

Whether you use the L1, L2 etc. as abbreviation for instar depends on you. Rob seems to be a purist regarding this issue. :wink:

We will not change the terminus anyway, so whatever you do, you should at least know what is meant.

Regards,

Christian


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## AFK (Jun 22, 2007)

> The "L" is the abbreviation for "Larven*stadium*", which means "instar".


this pretty much explains everything for me now!


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## Rob Byatt (Jun 23, 2007)

> The "L" is the abbreviation for "Larven*stadium*", which means "instar". One larva is called "Larve", pl. "Larven".


Thanks for clearing that up Christian. One thing though, does larven alone mean larvae ?



> Rob seems to be a purist regarding this issue. :wink:


Yup :wink: I just know that this term was used by all the original entomologists in this country and believe it should be continued that way.



> We will not change the terminus anyway, so whatever you do, you should at least know what is meant.


And you shouldn't have to; that is how your country has always described it. I wouldn't expect you to use 'I' (abbreviation on instar) just because we do.

Rob.


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## Asa (Jun 23, 2007)

Well, I guess that clears up everything, AFK.


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