# Mantis Mix Up in Nymph Nursery



## spicey (Aug 21, 2009)

[SIZE=12pt]Okay, to make a long story short, we had a mix up with some of our newly hatched nymphs about 2 months ago. I'm not all that good at identifying species (especially when they are babies) and even worse at sexing them. [/SIZE]

Over on the announcements board (Bugfest 2009 thread), I posted a few pics of what I thought was a European Mantis since they are looking for Europeans for Bugfest. Turns out I was correct on the species for that one. Thanks to Rick and Ismart for helping me out. We then got into the discussion of my circus of nymphs and Ismart offered to help me ID some of them if I would post pics. (Turns out I was correct on my guesses for the Chinese ones as well)

So, now I am starting a new thread over here, as there are more that I am unsure of and I would like to figure out who is who and what is what.

The first 4 pics here are of a little nymph that is smaller than most of my others, but kind of fat and has a crooked rump. I was thinking at first that maybe this is Stagmomantis Carolina, but then I have the next pics that are of a mantis that looks a whole lot like this one except it has the underarm spots like a European...but still is tiny and has a crooked rump as well. These 2 nymphs have made me more confused and unsure of my ability to differentiate the species than ever....

And, try as I might to get a good pic of their undersides, they have their own agenda and are giving me a hard time. I dunno, maybe they are a little camera shy :lol: 

So, without further ado........HELP PLEASE!

















i put this one in so that you can see the relative size of these tiny guys. That is a nickel sitting next to the lid this nymph is perched on.






and here are the 5 pics that are similar, but have the armpit spots....


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## Rick (Aug 21, 2009)

European. The spot between the front legs is the giveaway. Also the european have a different shape to their head.


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## spicey (Aug 21, 2009)

Rick said:


> European. The spot between the front legs is the giveaway. Also the european have a different shape to their head.


Try as I might, I can't see the spots on the mantis in the first pics.... Will I ever be able to tell them all apart?


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 21, 2009)

spicey said:


> Try as I might, I can't see the spots on the mantis in the first pics.... Will I ever be able to tell them all apart?


Do you not know to what species the ooths belonged? One must have been European, what was the other, or were there more?


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## spicey (Aug 21, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Do you not know to what species the ooths belonged? One must have been European, what was the other, or were there more?


There were 2 European ooths, 2 Chinese and a Carolina as far as I can tell.... all hatched out in the same enclosure. One of the Chinese began hatching first on June 25th, and before we could get the nymphs out, the others started hatching. By July 5th, all the ooths had hatched something. I know it was stupid of us to put them all together in the same nursery, but last year we attempted to hatch out 2 Chinese ooths and neither of them produced a thing. So, this year we decided to put a bunch of ooths in and watch for any activity......and boy did we get it!


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## Ntsees (Aug 21, 2009)

Those with the eye spots are clearly Europeans, but I'm going to take a stab at it and say they are all Europeans. Let us all know the truth later when they mature. Anyways, how did they get the crooked abdomen? There's a possbility that it may pose a problem to molting later. Otherwise, it should be fixed/gone in the future moltings.


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## spicey (Aug 21, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> Those with the eye spots are clearly Europeans, but I'm going to take a stab at it and say they are all Europeans. Let us all know the truth later when they mature. Anyways, how did they get the crooked abdomen? There's a possbility that it may pose a problem to molting later. Otherwise, it should be fixed/gone in the future moltings.


I don't know how they got those crooked bodies, I think it may have been a bad molt for those two.

I've got more Chinese than Europeans, I think I have close to twenty Chinese, both male and females

I think these 2 pics are of one of my male Chinese...I have several, look like my bigger Chinese only about 2/3 as long and way way thinner











Female Chinese I think...I've got several of these ones, and they are the largest ones.






This is my biggest European and I've been told it's a female






I have another ooth that just hatched out this week, and I'm pretty sure it is S. Carolina, so I'm hoping the nymphs survive as I might not have any left from the first Carolinas that hatched out...

When all of the first ooths (the mixed up ones) hatched, we released several hundred nymphs into my yard and gardens, then we lost a lot of the others to cannibalism as well. Now I have 30 or so nymphs in separate containers from that first hatching 2 months ago.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 21, 2009)

Let me guess. Did you buy one of those six packs on Ebay, with two each of Chinese, European and Carolinas? I did that too for an experiment on humidity, and they all hatched at once, lol!


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## ismart (Aug 21, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Let me guess. Did you buy one of those six packs on Ebay, with two each of Chinese, European and Carolinas? I did that too for an experiment on humidity, and they all hatched at once, lol!


Let me give you a little insight on what you really purchased. The so called ''carolina ooths'' were really narrow-winged ooths. I remember seeing these auctions on Ebay. I would bet my righ eye on it. If all of them hatched then you may very well have some narrow-winged nymphs as well. The difference between your common chinese and narrow-winged nymphs is a bright orange spot between the for legs. If you guys get a chance, take a look.


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## spicey (Aug 21, 2009)

QUOTE (PhilinYuma @ Aug 21 2009, 06:29 PM)

Let me guess. Did you buy one of those six packs on Ebay, with two each of Chinese, European and Carolinas? I did that too for an experiment on humidity, and they all hatched at once, lol!



ismart said:


> Let me give you a little insight on what you really purchased. The so called ''carolina ooths'' were really narrow-winged ooths. I remember seeing these auctions on Ebay. I would bet my righ eye on it. If all of them hatched then you may very well have some narrow-winged nymphs as well. The difference between your common chinese and narrow-winged nymphs is a bright orange spot between the for legs. If you guys get a chance, take a look.


My significant other bought them on eBay, it was like a 12 (but they sent about 15) pack of supposedly Chinese, European and Carolinas. Since the ooths we bought last year didn't produce a thing, we decided the price was right to try to get something out of the ones on eBay. I still have several ooths left in the fridge to hatch out later. The ones that hatched this week (from my second set of incubations) are from an ooth that most resembles a Carolina ooth. Maybe it is the narrow winged ones? I guess I'll find out when they get bigger, as they are only a few days old and look like every other nymph I have ever seen at that stage....LOL!


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## Rick (Aug 22, 2009)

spicey said:


> QUOTE (PhilinYuma @ Aug 21 2009, 06:29 PM) Let me guess. Did you buy one of those six packs on Ebay, with two each of Chinese, European and Carolinas? I did that too for an experiment on humidity, and they all hatched at once, lol!
> 
> My significant other bought them on eBay, it was like a 12 (but they sent about 15) pack of supposedly Chinese, European and Carolinas. Since the ooths we bought last year didn't produce a thing, we decided the price was right to try to get something out of the ones on eBay. I still have several ooths left in the fridge to hatch out later. The ones that hatched this week (from my second set of incubations) are from an ooth that most resembles a Carolina ooth. Maybe it is the narrow winged ones? I guess I'll find out when they get bigger, as they are only a few days old and look like every other nymph I have ever seen at that stage....LOL!


Post a pic of the ooth. I found a narrow wing adult male last year. I plan to go out to that area and try to find some this year. First time I had ever seen one.

As far as your pics I thought they were all of the same mantis. The first one still looks like a european. I have to give you credit for raising those europeans from ooths. In my experience they are difficult to raise. I have tried three times and falied three times.


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## spicey (Aug 22, 2009)

Rick said:


> Post a pic of the ooth. I found a narrow wing adult male last year. I plan to go out to that area and try to find some this year. First time I had ever seen one. As far as your pics I thought they were all of the same mantis. The first one still looks like a european. I have to give you credit for raising those europeans from ooths. In my experience they are difficult to raise. I have tried three times and falied three times.


I think the credit should probably go to the europeans themselves, for surviving *IN SPITE* of the fact that I'm the one raising them...  

Okay, here is the pic of 4 of the original mixed up nursery ooths, I think my son may have taken the other as I can only find these ones.






The newest ooth I hatched is this one, which I thought to be Carolina but maybe it's the narrow wing? You can see one of the nymphs sitting on it, that one wanted to be in the pic and refused to get off the ooth. It hatched on the 19th of August and I took the pics a few minutes ago.











Sorry about the poor lighting, it's raining outside and I had to take the pics on my kitchen table.


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## Rick (Aug 22, 2009)

It does look like a carolina ooth for the most part but something about it seems different.


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## spicey (Aug 22, 2009)

Rick said:


> It does look like a carolina ooth for the most part but something about it seems different.


I guess we will play the wait and see game to see what these nymphs resemble when they get older.


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## MantidLord (Aug 22, 2009)

Oooh a mystery!  Can't wait for updates. And if the first pic is a European why doesn't it have the eye spots? And Rick, what was so hard about raising Europeans? I'm curious because I'm attemting to breed them.


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## ismart (Aug 22, 2009)

spicey said:


> I think the credit should probably go to the europeans themselves, for surviving *IN SPITE* of the fact that I'm the one raising them...  Okay, here is the pic of 4 of the original mixed up nursery ooths, I think my son may have taken the other as I can only find these ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love being right!  Those last two ooth pics are 100% narrow-winged ooths. I have breed this species before the ooths are unmistakable! Even that nymph that is still stuck to the ooth looks more like a chinese nymph than a carolina nymph. Just wait till they get older. The bright orange spot will be easier to see.


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## Ntsees (Aug 23, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Oooh a mystery!  Can't wait for updates. And if the first pic is a European why doesn't it have the eye spots? And Rick, what was so hard about raising Europeans? I'm curious because I'm attemting to breed them.


Eye spots don't appear until the mantid gets older. That's just the way it is.


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## MantidLord (Aug 23, 2009)

But aren't those two mantids the same instar? And one all ready has them.


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## Rick (Aug 23, 2009)

ismart said:


> I love being right!  Those last two ooth pics are 100% narrow-winged ooths. I have breed this species before the ooths are unmistakable! Even that nymph that is still stuck to the ooth looks more like a chinese nymph than a carolina nymph. Just wait till they get older. The bright orange spot will be easier to see.


Yeah. I missed the first side view of the same ooth. That's no carolina.



MantidLord said:


> And Rick, what was so hard about raising Europeans? I'm curious because I'm attemting to breed them.


Don't know. They always are for some reason. Nymphs seem very weak and just die.


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## spicey (Aug 23, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> But aren't those two mantids the same instar? And one all ready has them.


They are both the same instar, I guess just like kids, even if they are both the same age and same size, one might start showing signs of puberty i.e. facial and underarm hair sooner than another. Maybe the spots are the equivalent in the mantid world... :lol: 



> QUOTE (ismart @ Aug 22 2009, 04:08 PM) I love being right! Those last two ooth pics are 100% narrow-winged ooths. I have breed this species before the ooths are unmistakable! Even that nymph that is still stuck to the ooth looks more like a chinese nymph than a carolina nymph. Just wait till they get older. The bright orange spot will be easier to see.
> 
> Yeah. I missed the first side view of the same ooth. That's no carolina.


I did a google search and found a pic of a Narrow Winged Ooth, I'm about 99% sure that is what I have here that just hatched out this week. Might very well have been one of the ones that hatched a couple months ago, so as my Chinese get a little bigger, I'm gonna start looking for the orange chest spot as well.


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## MantidLord (Aug 23, 2009)

Rick said:


> Don't know. They always are for some reason. Nymphs seem very weak and just die.


Oh that sucks. I hope I get lucky.



spicey said:


> They are both the same instar, I guess just like kids, even if they are both the same age and same size, one might start showing signs of puberty i.e. facial and underarm hair sooner than another. Maybe the spots are the equivalent in the mantid world... :lol:


lol, I guess you're right. It does look like Mantis religiosa anyway. But they are animals and all individuals vary (even within a species)


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 23, 2009)

yea they look religiosa to me too and so do the ooths, but I am usually wrong :lol:


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## planetq (Aug 23, 2009)

Yeah what Paul said!

You got a mixture of Chinese, Narrow wings and European.

All three of those species have a high mortality rate when they are young, so don't beat your self up too much for the loss.  

Out of the three, I think the first picture you have of the golden nymph is a European, even if it doesn't have the black dots. Maybe some just don't... I don't know, but it is definitely not a Chinese, nor a Narrow wing for sure.

Like what Rick said, Europeans have a rounder for-head compared to Chinese or Narrow wings. And they have different patterns along the edges and sides. The differences will be crystal clear once they grow up just a little bit more.

Yeah, like Paul, when I saw those pictures of the ooths, there was no mistaking of what those were.


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