# For newbs and anyone else really...



## Colorcham427 (Nov 21, 2011)

edit.


----------



## massaman (Nov 21, 2011)

just a question you need to be rich or have alot of spare change if you can invest in 60 idolos and most people charge high prices per nymph usually or expect alot for them!


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Nov 21, 2011)

Idolo breeding? I have three bred right now, first ooth had 77 nymphs, with MANY more to come! My prices a pretty cheap(best on the forum's) on them if anyone wants to try their hand at some.  

And that is one long azz post there Bud! :clown:


----------



## Precarious (Nov 21, 2011)

Where do I begin?

Umm... I'm not trying to be confrontational, but don't you regularly lose entire batches of mantids? Didn't you lose a ton of Orchid nymphs, for instance? And didn't you just state in your other post that you hope you can keep your basement warm enough to keep that Pseudacanthops alive?

The only reason I point this out is I find parts of your rant offensive. Suggesting that keeping ANY species communally is a bad move is just absurd. Additionally, there are people that love their mantids and give them tons of attention but don't want to have 60 of any species even if they are considered a difficult breed. Not everyone is looking to make money by breeding reams of mantids. Some of us just love our pets and maybe keep a second generation. I think that's successful keeping.



Brian Aschenbach said:


> Another problem with keeping a bunch in one enclosure is misting them and feeding them. If one is in the middle of molting, you can not move that net cage or open that tank without risking a major disturbance and having that 1 nymph fall and die from mis-molting.


Same can happen if kept individually. In fact, probably happens way more often if you have so many separate containers you can't take the time to look in each before misting.

I had only four L2 Orchid nymphs. They all made it to adult. Got my first ooth this morning. I recall your statement about wild collected ooths being better, etc. So your Orchid ooths were wild collected. As I understand it you mainly buy ooths and sell the nymphs, so what exactly have you bred? Again, I'm not trying to be a smart azz. I just don't know what you have bred. The Idolo you sold were from ooths you bought too. Seems you mainly buy ooths. Feel free to correct. Like I said, I don't really know, which is why I ask.



Brian Aschenbach said:


> You want to be successful? Get at least 60 L1 nymphs, and keep each in their own deli cup. Even if you put 8 in each 1 ft. sqaured butterfly net cage, even if you read and view people's experiences of keeping a bunch in one large cage, etc. There IS STILL a POSSIBILITY of a nymph getting knocked off a branch while molting. Why risk it????????


RIDICULOUS! I have successfully bred many species, nearly every species I've kept, and the most I've ever had of any were ten L2 nymphs to start off unless I hatched an ooth.

Sadly, I would disregard the majority of what you've said about Idolos. Idolo are way too big to be kept comfortable in a deli cup as anything other than a temporary fix. I would consider that cruel and not very good way to appreciate your beautiful pet, but I suppose if you are looking at it as a business...



Brian Aschenbach said:


> This species can be sexed at L3 with an amazing naked eye, much easier to sex at L5 though lol.


Like the female L4 you sold me as a male??? It lived exactly 9 days in my possession. Maybe this is the wrong place to bring it up but it was never resolved, or replaced and this post reminded me of it. (I suppose this should be written in your feedback instead.)

Not sure why you've felt the need to write this post but I think a lot of this advice is off the mark and I felt I needed to say my part so anyone reading this doesn't take it as gospel. Sorry to disagree. I do not claim to be a big time breeder, but I love my pets and have fun watching them grow and interact with myself and each other. That's all the success I need.


----------



## azn567 (Nov 21, 2011)

60 Idolo's is a lot to raise for breeding...


----------



## meaganelise9 (Nov 21, 2011)

Whoa. That was long, and just whoa. Anyway..



Brian Aschenbach said:


> Being a "pro" mantis keeper is easy and simple. Don't let ANY ONE discourage you by telling you, this isn't a species for beginners. Unless of course, you are only interested in keeping a bug that doesn't involve any work other than a few flies a day and a spray...


In response to this, at least, I thank you for being one of the few people to sell me anything as a newb. Several people wouldn't even respond to my PM's, which I thought was kind of rude, but whatever. Not a big deal. My first mantis was a B. mendica and my third was the Idolo you sold me. Everyone said they were both too hard, and I've had zero problems with either. They're doing great. My mendica is about to molt to adult, and my Idolo has never lost a limb even though everyone tried to tell me it would lose legs like crazy or die since I only got one.. Do they have a high mortality rate, yeah. Do they do fine if you care for them properly- many times yes. So thanks for having faith, sir.


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Nov 21, 2011)

Agreed!!!(Henry) I'm kind of a one trick pony a the moment, but it's a heck of a trick, I keep many Idolo together 10-20+ in several different enclosures, they only need to be well fed and have vertical as well as horizontal places to hang out(many stick/branches or vines) and they do very well together.

You need the have some heart and understanding about them if its just about money it won't work!

I'm loaded with fertile ooths from my idolo now and I never keep any in a deli or by themselves except if I spotted a sub adult about to molt.

If you don't know what your saying then don't speak as some people may think you know what your talking about!!!


----------



## twolfe (Nov 22, 2011)

Brian, this must be a record for the longest post.

It's really not practical for most of us to buy 60 L1 Idolo nymphs...even with Nick's great price and hardy stock! I can't imagine having to feed nymphs in 60 enclosures or clean that many. I only bought 10 L1 nymphs back in May and raised them communally. I was fortunate that I did not lose any to cannibalism, though I know it's a possibility. Because of their size, I'd rather have them live in a large enclosure with a chance of cannibalism or knocking each other down than living in a small deli cup. I had to separate my p. wahlbergii at L6 because they are very aggressive, and it's very time consuming to have to open 14 different enclosures for feeding...especially when I'm raising 9 other species at the moment.

You want to be successful? Get at least 60 L1 nymphs, and keep each in their own deli cup. Even if you put 8 in each 1 ft. sqaured butterfly net cage, even if you read and view people's experiences of keeping a bunch in one large cage, etc. There IS STILL a POSSIBILITY of a nymph getting knocked off a branch while molting. Why risk it????????


----------



## kitkat39 (Nov 22, 2011)

I want the 10 minutes of my life back from reading that post!


----------



## jcal (Nov 22, 2011)

Meagan...i feel your pain  

Im still learning so i will take what i can. This went way different then i thought when i first read this post.


----------



## patrickfraser (Nov 22, 2011)

TMI :huh:


----------



## Rick (Nov 22, 2011)

So are you saying you're a pro? There are only a few people on this board that I would consider "pros."


----------



## crucis (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm newbish, so i may be wrong. But for me, a 'Pro Mantis Keeper' sounds like someone who buys 2 male and 2 female (young) nymphs and tells hisself that 'No matter what i'll get two of them to breed successfully. I know that if I have just 4, i'll give them the best attention that I possibly can. Once i've proven myself with this species, THEN i'll buy a truckload... or not.'

And in the end he pulls it off (cuz he's a Pro)... if not, he (ok, maybe she) buys another 4 and tries his/her best to troubleshoot.

No offence, but buying 60 ('investing in enough nymphs so a decent amount become adults') sounds more like what a Businessman would recommend.

I do agree with keeping them apart, though.


----------



## massaman (Nov 22, 2011)

I think crisp is more of a pro then brian is and he knows way more but thats just my personal experience and I am a pro myself but only on easy to breed and raise species and never claim to know it all or say that I do like this post and would not waste my time posting such a long post with little to show for my efforts in the process but to each their own!


----------



## patrickfraser (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm pleased as punch to be a successful "novice" beginner.


----------



## rs4guy (Nov 22, 2011)

I want that 7 minutes of my life back thank you... I am no Pro, but half of this stuff sounds rediculous....


----------



## PhilinYuma (Nov 22, 2011)

Well, that certainly got a vigorous reaction, Brian! I think that what upset some folks was that they saw you as saying that their practiice, like using net cages, was "B.S." or nonsense. There is an unfortunate tendency for a lot of us, particularly those writing an individual (as opposed to forum) caresheet, of being too dogmatic. If you say, "Never feed your insects bees or wasps, they may sting your mantids and injure them, you are flat wrong, but if you say, "I never feed bees or other stinging insects to my mantids for fear that they might get stung and injured," then no one can argue except, perhaps, to say that this has never happened to them.

Another good idea is to explain to your audience why you do what you do. You mention that leaving water in a bucket for 24hrs is BS because it is safer to wait for 48 hours, but why are you doing this in the first place? To let the chlorine dissipate into the air? Have you ever tested the water for frree chlorine after a day? And why are you worrying about chlorine in the water, anyway? Aquarium fish live in water, and if it contains too much chlorine, the fishes' gills will become irritated, though their GI tract is not affected, to my knowledge.. But a drop of chlorinted water is hardly likely to harm the tough gut of a mantis. Distilled water is used for spraying deli cups not because of the danger of chlorine, but because the minerals in tap water will be deposited on the plastic when the water evaporates, and those minerals will not lessen from the water being lefyt exposed to the air.

Still, your post was more thought provoking than questions like, "What TV shows should I watch with my mantis?"


----------



## massaman (Nov 22, 2011)

I dont think half of what he was saying should not be actually taken literally with a pound of salt!


----------



## lunarstorm (Nov 22, 2011)

I don't understand the purpose of your post Brian. Lots of questions... Why post details about idolomantis diabolica care in a new topic when there's already a great thread detailing their care? Why do you leave water out? Why do you mention "drinking water" for a lobata? Why define what a "pro" is?

No offense but given your feedback thread, I question if you are in a position to make suggestions about how to properly raise/sell mantids as a "pro".


----------



## massaman (Nov 22, 2011)

+2


----------



## patrickfraser (Nov 22, 2011)

lunarstorm said:


> I don't understand the purpose of your post Brian. Lots of questions... Why post details about idolomantis diabolica care in a new topic when there's already a great thread detailing their care? Why do you leave water out? Why do you mention "drinking water" for a lobata? Why define what a "pro" is?
> 
> No offense but given your feedback thread, I question if you are in a position to make suggestions about how to properly raise/sell mantids as a "pro".


 :huh: :lol: :clap: I concur.


----------



## Colorcham427 (Dec 6, 2011)

niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!!!!!


----------



## Colorcham427 (Dec 6, 2011)

nice!


----------



## Colorcham427 (Dec 6, 2011)

delete this please.


----------



## Colorcham427 (Dec 6, 2011)

Trans-Am said:


> 60 Idolo's is a lot to raise for breeding...


how many adults do you think would make it to adult hood from 60 L1 nymphs?

Most idolos are from WC ooths. some are weak, as others are hardy and stronger. some come from a crappy ooth, maybe by shipping at the wrong time of development, or some parasitic stuff, idk.

All I know is that I have been talking to many idolo breeders, and some groups of idolos mis molt much easier than others. even at L1!

I've had great success getting idolos to sub adults. But since I only had something as small as a 2.2 or 2.3 i decided to sell them instead of risking and getting only 1.0 since many sub adults mis molt.

For those of you who have only raised 2 or 3 idolos and succeded and got them to healthy, perfectly shaped adults, hats off to you! bravo! lol

This post was intended to help newbs save money and not make the same mistakes I made. Nobody told me how many idolos they originally started off with! I had no idea that these breeders had more than 50 L1 nymphs to begin their breeder colony!

In the beginning, I thought these breeders simply had the idolos' envronment down to a science.

I found L1s and L2s and L3s and L4s rarely mis molt... That L5 instars had a higher risk of mis molting, and the bigger they get, the higher chance of mis molting they have.

Then I started to believe these successful idolo breeders got lucky with a strong strain since providing an idolo's environment really isn't all too hard.

Then I started talking to several folks over seas.

Some WC ooths hatch strong nymphs as other WC ooths hatch out weak nymphs.

So I am simply providing new comers and whoever else some info. That's all. Yes I am "ranting" I guess? lol But hey, I prefer to save people money and I prefer to see people be successful with this species!

Instead of 30 people thru-out the US buying 5 or 6 nymphs, each person ends up with what? 1 or 2 adults? It's hard to get breeder loans, etc.

I hope to see more CB idolos in culture as we all do!

But getting a colony going, and getting CB babies going, costs money. This is the ultimate goal we all got here in the mantis community.

So to be successful from my info. gathered and my honest opinion:

Provide an ideal environment.

Start off with a lot of nymphs!

A larger count of nymphs is required since some groups of idolos come from not as healthy ooths.

This is why I recommend using individual cups. This takes a few more minutes, come on guys it's not hard to check a single nymph in a clear deli cup to see if they are eating, and to check whether or not they look too fat so hold on feeding to help with mis molts.

A group of idolos in a single cage, yes they can do great, I've had many 10-20 count idolo groups in instar L1/L2/L3 live communally and only had 1 mis molt... But I also had a batch of idolos at L1 where I had more than a few mis molts.

Henry, I lost many orchid nymphs due to the fact that I made a poor decision and used "pre-used poly fabric lids that had dried glue from having little wood chips glued to it for molting for other species"... The orchids that made it to L2 were the nymphs that were housed in cups with clean/new poly fabric lids. The loss sucks, and of course it's all on me lol. Trial and error my friends. Always use lids that never had a lot of stuff glued to it before!  

My feed back has nothing to do with this? So please just don't bring that up. If you knew my story I highly doubt you would of even brought that up. PM me if you want to hear it, seriously.  

This thread is to explain to newbs that any1 can care for any species just as well as the other guy. As long as you know their methods. This thread is on Lobata and idolo.

Lobata need many males.

Idolo, you really should start off with at least 50 L1's if you want to end up with a nice amount of adults that molt to a perfect shape. As you know, or maybe you don't? An adult male idolo is worthless if he has a bent limb... Idolos are not only clumsy, but they really need to be perfectly formed as adults to get a decent amount of connecting done. Males especially, since they are the ones who need to be aggressive during mating since they have to hold on to the female and mount while pressing on her. Sometimes you get a pair of mantids that mate easily, sometimes you get a pair with a female that isn't too nice to the male and gives a lot of "aggressive teasing" if you will. lol


----------



## patrickfraser (Dec 6, 2011)

:lol:


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Dec 6, 2011)

Why are trash talking my hard earned success with not one? but 3? Prego Idolo females, be rest assured I did not get lucky it was all about how I raised them as whole that got me unlimited Idolo there Brian, but I don't consider myself a "Pro", so call it luck if you need too.


----------

