# Please help!



## earth intruder (Apr 28, 2009)

I gave my brother a small 1/4 inch Gambian mantis two days ago, and he just called me and said that it is now laying on the ground looking listless. This happened suddenly, 10 minutes before it was perched on its branch with vibrating antennae, looking very alert.

He nudged it slightly with the side of a pencil tip and it was not very responsive. I advised him to leave it alone for now, not touch it, and remove the one cricket left from the enclosure. I have never had a mantis before, so I don't know what to tell him, but he loves this mantis and I want it to work out for him!

Could this be a sign that he's moulting? I really don't know what to do!


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## Katnapper (Apr 28, 2009)

Tell him to pick it up NOW and try to suspend it from it's rear back legs somehow, so it can hang. If it's fallen during molting, delaying sounds like certain cripplement or death. I've even used masking tape to hang them up with if they are unable to grip something themselves... let us know.

Edit: With the masking tape deal, I used a piece at the end of his back legs to attach them to a pencil, and balanced/set the pencil over the top of an open 32 oz deli cup. Tape the pencil in place too so it doesn't roll off. Update us on his progress if you can. Leaving him laying there will end in death.

Edit #2: Is this the night for emergency molts, or what?!!!  How's your brother coming along, Earth Intruder?


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## earth intruder (Apr 28, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Tell him to pick it up NOW and try to suspend it from it's rear back legs somehow, so it can hang. If it's fallen during molting, delaying sounds like certain cripplement or death. I've even used masking tape to hang them up with if they are unable to grip something themselves... let us know.Edit: With the masking tape deal, I used a piece at the end of his back legs to attach them to a pencil, and balanced/set the pencil over the top of an open 32 oz deli cup. Tape the pencil in place too so it doesn't roll off. Update us on his progress if you can. Leaving him laying there will end in death.


Thank you for the quick reply! I called him, I will update you on what happens.


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 28, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Tell him to pick it up NOW and try to suspend it from it's rear back legs somehow, so it can hang. If it's fallen during molting, delaying sounds like certain cripplement or death. I've even used masking tape to hang them up with if they are unable to grip something themselves... let us know.Edit: With the masking tape deal, I used a piece at the end of his back legs to attach them to a pencil, and balanced/set the pencil over the top of an open 32 oz deli cup. Tape the pencil in place too so it doesn't roll off. Update us on his progress if you can. Leaving him laying there will end in death.


lol regular emergency room here tonight huh? Nurse Katnapper is on the way! Good idea with the tape.


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## Katnapper (Apr 28, 2009)

Good grief, again!!! lol Sorry... I'm *not *actually laughing, as it's definitely not funny when a mantis is mismolting (if that is indeed what his is doing). It's so strange to have 2 molting emergencies back to back though in the forum! Where is everyone else?!!! :huh: 

Edit: With the masking tape emergency deal.... Resorting to something like this could easily result in deformity or the inability to use the back legs. But it's worth it if he makes it through the molt without major body damage or deformity. Body deformity can kill. Back legs deformity, or even loss, can hinder things and make it hard on the mantis to get around or do as well as a normal nymph. But if he makes it to the next molt, he can "outgrow" the deformity (especially with back walking legs) and re-grow them. It's not guaranteed, but his next molt could possibly "fix" things, and result in a relatively normal nymph.


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## earth intruder (Apr 28, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Edit #2: Is this the night for emergency molts, or what?!!!  How's your brother coming along, Earth Intruder?


Ok, he was moved onto a twig, which was slowly turned upside down so he could hang from it. He is currently hanging from his rear legs, however they said that he stills seems lethargic and felt limp and soft. Is this consistent with molting??

I think the temperature was a bit low for him as well, low seventies or high sixties... I told them to mount a small heating pad on the side of the cage to warm it by a few degrees, was this an ok suggestion?

Thank you!

Edit: also, his abdomen prior to this was very tightly curved - I was told it was because of his wing buds...? Anyway, now his abdomen is much more relaxed and straight. Is this a cause for concern?


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 28, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> lol regular emergency room here tonight huh? Nurse Katnapper is on the way! Good idea with the tape.


That's Doctor Katnapper to you, mate. If you don't believe me, wait until she sends you her bill!


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## Katnapper (Apr 28, 2009)

earth intruder said:


> Ok, he was moved onto a twig, which was slowly turned upside down so he could hang from it. He is currently hanging from his rear legs, however they said that he stills seems lethargic and felt limp and soft. Is this consistent with molting?? I think the temperature was a bit low for him as well, low seventies or high sixties... I told them to mount a small heating pad on the side of the cage to warm it by a few degrees, was this an ok suggestion?
> 
> Thank you!


Good! You've got him hanging from his rear legs, and that's the most important part. Tell him whatever he does, not to bang, shift, or disturb him in any way right now. I wouldn't even worry about the heating pad unless it's an aquarium or something that doesn't move or give at all (no possibility of shifting him). Even the slightest movement could make him lose his grip... then he's in bad shape... may not be able to hang by himself again, and that's the most important thing right now.

Yes, it's completely normal for him to be limp and soft. Just tell him to leave him alone if he's hanging ok... he'll do what he's got to do by himself. Tell him "Good going!!" and "Now leave him alone!"


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## Katnapper (Apr 28, 2009)

earth intruder said:


> Edit: also, his abdomen prior to this was very tightly curved - I was told it was because of his wing buds...? Anyway, now his abdomen is much more relaxed and straight. Is this a cause for concern?


No... it's natural, he should be starting his molt now. Before, his exoskeleton was tight, now it's probably split somewhere and he's expanding and straightening out in preparation to slip out of it. Tell him not to worry... as long as he's hanging with plenty of room below.... he should do fine. Just leave him alone. Tell him to try not to hover over the cage like an anxious mother either... I feel it makes them nervous and stressed. And he will be in a state that he's totally helpless...can't do anything. Last time... just leave him alone.   Tell him not to handle, move, or feed him for a day... or even two. After that, if all goes well.... he should be back to his normal self and all good to go.

I really hope all goes well with him!!  You'll have to let us know.  

Somebody else take over... My shift's done!!!   :lol: I need to go to bed!


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## earth intruder (Apr 28, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Good! You've got him hanging from his rear legs, and that's the most important part. Tell him whatever he does, not to bang, shift, or disturb him in any way right now. I wouldn't even worry about the heating pad unless it's an aquarium or something that doesn't move or give at all (no possibility of shifting him). Even the slightest movement could make him lose his grip... then he's in bad shape... may not be able to hang by himself again, and that's the most important thing right now.Yes, it's completely normal for him to be limp and soft. Just tell him to leave him alone if he's hanging ok... he'll do what he's got to do by himself. Tell him "Good going!!" and "Now leave him alone!"


Ok... By the time I read this, they'd already mounted the heat pad - however, he did not fall, he's still hanging in there, quite literally.

I told them not to touch or jostle the cage in any way from now on.

What should we be looking for in terms of improvement/deterioration in his condition? They've been spraying once a day, should they still spray the enclosure in the morning, or would that disturb him too much?

Edit: In the morning I will remind them not to hover like anxious mothers - I'm sure it'll be hard for them!

Thank you so much, Katnapper, you've been great!


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## Katnapper (Apr 28, 2009)

earth intruder said:


> Ok... By the time I read this, they'd already mounted the heat pad - however, he did not fall, he's still hanging in there, quite literally. I told them not to touch or jostle the cage in any way from now on.
> 
> What should we be looking for in terms of improvement/deterioration in his condition? They've been spraying once a day, should they still spray the enclosure in the morning, or would that disturb him too much?
> 
> Thank you so much, Katnapper, you've been great!


No problem, Earth! I suppose I needed a little excitement tonight anyway!!! hehe. If they've got the heat pad up and in place... that's fine. Just tell them to make sure it doesn't get too hot. Don't want to cook him! He's extremely vulnerable right now... to everything, temps. included... so a warm, but not hot environment sounds good. Don't mist him in the morning tomorrow. He doesn't need it right now (or tomorrow), and he'll still be drying out (even if he looks like he's done), and it could interfere with the drying process. Tell them to wait and try giving him a drink (spraying just his head, and/or near, and in front of his head) tomorrow night or preferably the next day. If he bends down to drink, spray the spot again where he's drinking. They can try feeding him at that time too. From there he should be good to go!   

Edit: Night night all... Hoping all's well that ends well!


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 28, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> That's Doctor Katnapper to you, mate. If you don't believe me, wait until she sends you her bill!


I think he's got Manti-Aid. Medical coverage which will fully cover Mantagra for those more.. inactive breeding sessions though it will NOT cover the Mantid-Birth control crickets.  Of course, the molting problem is a pre-existing condition so he might have to pay in full! Where is Mantid Moore when you need a good docu-drama!?


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## superfreak (Apr 28, 2009)

hmm....i have a feeling this may not be a moult at all. i guess we'll see soon!


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## Katnapper (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm wondering myself....


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## earth intruder (Apr 28, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> I'm wondering myself....


I'm told that this morning he's still hanging, in exactly the same position. No change in condition.

If not a molt, what are the other possibilities?


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## earth intruder (Apr 28, 2009)

I just got the news... They went out to clean the horse stalls and when they came back he had fallen and was dead... We're all extremely upset. I don't understand what went wrong, especially what could have gone wrong so quickly. Last night at 9 pm he was alert, with a normal posture, antennae waving, and then at 10 pm he was limp.

What could we have done wrong? I feel awful.


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## bassist (Apr 28, 2009)

I had a Hierodula pass from similar symptoms last night was hanging by one leg been eating hydei fruit flies fine no idea what the cause is.


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## Katnapper (Apr 28, 2009)

earth intruder said:


> I just got the news... They went out to clean the horse stalls and when they came back he had fallen and was dead... We're all extremely upset. I don't understand what went wrong, especially what could have gone wrong so quickly. Last night at 9 pm he was alert, with a normal posture, antennae waving, and then at 10 pm he was limp. What could we have done wrong? I feel awful.


I'm sorry.  I don't think you or they did anything wrong. If he wasn't molting, I'm not sure what could have been wrong with him. Praying mantids are usually pretty simple to keep, but sometimes they do just die. There is still a world of knowledge yet to be learned about them. Many times when something goes wrong, we just don't know.

Pseudoharpax virescens, for me, isn't the easiest mantis. I've had a high percentage of deaths with the ones I've hatched, and I'm not really sure why.

Please try not to feel so bad... there was likely nothing anyone could do for him.


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## Rick (Apr 28, 2009)

These are insects not the family dog so when something is wrong there really isn't much you can do. If a mantis is laying in a heap and not moving it is as good as dead. You're going to lose some from time to time in this hobby. I don't get upset about it anymore.


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## earth intruder (Apr 28, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> I'm sorry.  I don't think you or they did anything wrong. If he wasn't molting, I'm not sure what could have been wrong with him. Praying mantids are usually pretty simple to keep, but sometimes they do just die. There is still a world of knowledge yet to be learned about them. Many times when something goes wrong, we just don't know. Pseudoharpax virescens, for me, isn't the easiest mantis. I've had a high percentage of deaths with the ones I've hatched, and I'm not really sure why.
> 
> Please try not to feel so bad... there was likely nothing anyone could do for him.


Thank you very much for your kind words. My brother is very upset, so I don't think we'll get another mantis for a while, but when we do I'll look at some easier species.

Your help has been much appreciated!


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## superfreak (Apr 28, 2009)

think about getting at least five next time. The sudden death syndrome happens to all of us every once in a while. Sometimes you just dont know why!


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 28, 2009)

superfreak said:


> think about getting at least five next time. The sudden death syndrome happens to all of us every once in a while. Sometimes you just dont know why!


This morning, I checked my nine giant shield nymphs, and noticed that in one pot the flies that I had fed last night were still flying around (they were long gone in all the others). He had identical conditions and food to the others and was way too old for SIDS, but there he was, dead as a doornail at the bottom of the pot. It's sad but true, as Rick and Superfreak have said, it just happens a lot more among mantids, who are unlikely to live for a year anyway, than it does for most pets. Safety in numbers, that's the answer!

BUT I also agree that grieving for lost friends or pets or anything we love is the price that we pay for that love, and a little grieving over a dead mantis may be a Good Thing.


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## Katnapper (Apr 29, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> That's Doctor Katnapper to you, mate. If you don't believe me, wait until she sends you her bill!


  



LectricBlueyes said:


> I think he's got Manti-Aid. Medical coverage which will fully cover Mantagra for those more.. inactive breeding sessions though it will NOT cover the Mantid-Birth control crickets.  Of course, the molting problem is a pre-existing condition so he might have to pay in full! Where is Mantid Moore when you need a good docu-drama!?


 :lol: 



PhilinYuma said:


> BUT I also agree that grieving for lost friends or pets or anything we love is the price that we pay for that love, and a little grieving over a dead mantis may be a Good Thing.


 ^_^ 



superfreak said:


> think about getting at least five next time. The sudden death syndrome happens to all of us every once in a while. Sometimes you just dont know why!


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## earth intruder (Apr 29, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> BUT I also agree that grieving for lost friends or pets or anything we love is the price that we pay for that love, and a little grieving over a dead mantis may be a Good Thing.


I think the little guy was worth grieving over...  ...


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 29, 2009)

Heads up. My first praying mantis, which I got about 2 months ago was a Gambian Spotted Eye. Always did great, healthy, ate his fruit flies, pinheads, and now small crickets. Always kept him in a deli cup with a lid that has cloth on it. Just got 32oz deli cups today. Added some of that moss-stuff everyone suggests which you can get at a lot of places but I happen to buy mine from Mantisplace. He's a sub adult. I'm assuming this as I've not kept strict records of his molts but he had wing buds and the spots were big as ever and he was a nice white color. Anyway... 6 hours later, dead. Found him tangled and underneath a lump of that moss ######. Sad to see him go. I know, he's an insect but he was my first. I'm sticking to the foam circles that fit perfectly at the bottoms of the cups. My mantids NEVER get tangled in the foam, I can easily wash the poop and pee or feeder guts right off of the foam, no problem and nothing can get under the foam as it's literally a PERFECT fit. Oh sure, we could go into details.... did I over humidify? under humidify? are you sure he wasn't molting? did a cricket get him? was the moss contaminated? Well, the answer is mostly no. He didn't molt, the cricket was nowhere near him from what I could tell... the humidity was normal as usual... he doesn't look like a mismolt but the odd thing is... those wing "buds" or maybe they were wings.. were all opened up like a parachute... I can only assume he freaked out when he couldn't get out from under the lump of moss ###### and he tried with wings and legs to escape, which would explain why his wings were open.

I'm getting pretty frustrated with this hobby lately. I've had like 5 deaths in the last month. It's annoying when you get tons of advice, do the research... I wake up in the morning, first thing I do.. I get out of bed and check them, I get home from work, I check them, I go to bed... I check them. I buy all the stuff I"m told to buy and I feed them the stuff I'm supposed to feed them. Yea, I'm frustrated and I know death is inevitable and I know I'm new... and before you say it Rick, I know they aren't dogs.  Anyway, good night.. I need sleep lol obviously. Thanks forum, needed to vent


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 29, 2009)

superfreak said:


> The sudden death syndrome happens to all of us every once in a while. Sometimes you just dont know why!


I know! It happened to me in my car last week. There I was driving home from work and BOOM... I died! I wake up and I'm like "Man, thank God for all these clones of me!".


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 29, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> I know! It happened to me in my car last week. There I was driving home from work and BOOM... I died! I wake up and I'm like "Man, thank God for all these clones of me!".


Go to bed, David!


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## superfreak (Apr 29, 2009)

lol.


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## Katnapper (Apr 29, 2009)

superfreak said:


> lol.


+1


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 29, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Go to bed, David!


Ahhh yes, a new day!


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