# Hydei Culturing Tips!?



## GreenOasis (Oct 25, 2010)

I just wanted to post the results of my rather un-scientific experiment in Hydei culturing. I have read many things on how to do this over the past several months, and most of it is very conflicting. I thought I would try the three most common food mixes &amp; see what happened (so that hopefully, I can improve the performance of my starts!)

First, I started with what seemed to be a "basic" mix: Potato flakes, water, white vinegar, a tad methylparaben, yeast &amp; 2 drops food coloring.

This is the result after one week:







Note there is no presence of larvae &amp; I worry that the adults will die without ever laying a fertile egg.

The next mix I tried was the "masa" mix that everyone raves about: Masa, applesauce, methylparaben, honey, yeast &amp; 2 drops food coloring.

This is the result after one week:






Note, again, there is no larval activity.

Finally, I tried a VERY basic and economical solution: Potato flakes, water, apple cider vinegar, yeast &amp; 2 drops food coloring...no methylparaben or honey as a preservative or mold inhibitor.

Here are the results after one week:






Closer:






As you can see, there are numerous healthy larvae in the bottom of the cup!

What this means, I'm not sure, but apparently, either the larvae NEED some mold/fungal activity to get going, or the methylparaben acts as some sort of contraceptive on the adults. I have tried this experiment previously with the use of colloidal silver in the culture as a mold inhibitor, with very little success...so I tend to lean on the idea that the larvae needing some mold/fungus.

Anyone else have any observations/insights that could shed light on this? :smarty: 

THANKS!

-Carey Kurtz-


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## LauraMG (Oct 25, 2010)

I never seem to be able to see the maggots until they are almost overflowing from the medium. I use the recipe in this thread: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7715 : and it seems to work well for me. That's the medium that's in the culture I sent you too.


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## GreenOasis (Oct 25, 2010)

Okay, yeah, that's the masa mix I used in that second pic...the only "difference" is the methylparaben I added, which, I think is what causes the prob. I should probably try the masa mix without the methylparaben, and...do you use honey in it or no? The recipe seems to vary indiscriminately, telling you you can add this or that, but I'm just not sure if I'm adding TOO MUCH of any one thing! (Like, okay, the honey is a mold/bacteria inhibitor, but, so is the vinegar, so is it okay to use BOTH or is that overkill?)

*sigh* Maybe I obsess too much! :blink: 

Anywho, once I actually get some good fly cultures going, I'll probably try a few other mixes &amp; see what comes of it.

Also, DOES ANYONE KNOW IF HYDEI NEED SOMETHING *ELSE* IN THE MIX? I've heard that Hydei have different nutritional requirements and yet, I can't seem to find a recipe JUST for Hydei (except a prepared mix for sale at Ed's Fly Meat!)

Is there any difference between using brewer's yeast and baker's yeast? I always kinda' thought they were basically the same thing, but some of the recipes I've seen mention ONLY brewer's yeast (and Ed's Fly Meat supposedly has it in their mix.)

-Carey Kurtz-


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## LauraMG (Oct 25, 2010)

I use both the honey and the vinegar. As for the other stuff, I don't know. I've only cultured hydei flies though, if that means anything


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## more_rayne (Oct 25, 2010)

Did you use flies that were the same age for all your experiments?


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## Zephyr (Oct 25, 2010)

I was in contact with a girl from Japan at some point who did a science fair project on Drosophila larvae. She proved that when they eat they eat for the whole cluster of maggots in the medium by spewing out digestive enzymes to both break up the medium for the yeasts they eat as well as to begin digestion of the yeast. Maybe the preservatives prevent this enzyme(s) from working.


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## GreenOasis (Oct 25, 2010)

Zephyr: Yes, that's kind of what I'm thinking...the Methylparaben must counteract that somehow and make things "stagnant"...I DID notice that the culture with potato flakes AND Methylparaben finally has tiny little maggots in the bottom, but still nothing in the masa mix!

more_rayne: Yes, I used the same flies out of one culture for all three.


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## PeterF (Oct 25, 2010)

"Yes, I used the same flies out of one culture for all three."

Well, if you in fact used the same flies, then that is your problem, they can only lay so many eggs more often.

If you (as I suspect) used different flies from the same culture then it is possible they are not the same age. Which might by itself cause different durations from introduction of flies to visible maggots.

I don't know the biochem of it, but methylparaben is reported to slow growth in fruit fly larvae.

Ultimately, controlling for variables is hard. You'll need more replications before you can use words like "must".


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## GreenOasis (Oct 26, 2010)

Oh sorry...yes, that was a bit confusing on my part! No, I used the same BATCH of flies, divided up into three cultures.

Heh, heh...yes, "must" seems rather definite, doesn't it? I do plan to do much more experimentation...more to find a method that works best for ME than to find the "ultimately perfect" method. I would encourage others to do the same thing.

I didn't realize that Methylparaben did that...why then, do people use it in those cultures? Or sell it FOR those cultures, for that matter?  (Hubby has this "conspiracy" notion that it's because then your culture will die and you'll have to buy another &amp; another from, guess who? The person that sold you the culture &amp; Methylparaben to begin with!)  I mean, I guess if you WANTED to slow the growth of the culture, that would be one thing...but if it's just for mold inhibitor, and vinegar works just as well...well, seems a bit suspect to me. &lt;_&lt; 

In fact, I remember reading on one of "those" sites earlier about Methylparaben...one of their "selling points" was that using Methylparaben was more economical than using vinegar...how much vinegar do you use in a culture? A tablespoon, right? I think I pay like $1.69 a gallon for vinegar!  That's enough for 250+ cultures! Or, you could pay $11.99/lb for Methylparaben, which is enough to make 360 cultures (from Josh's Frogs). Now, I'm not a math whiz, so I'm going to do this on a calculator: Vinegar $.006/culture vs. Methylparaben $.033/culture. Not much of a difference, maybe, but I suppose if you're working in bulk, it could be. (I wonder if anyone has bothered to point out the error in calculation to "Josh"?)  

Hey, here's a question...the vinegar raises the acidity to suppress mold, correct? What about using a tiny amount of citric acid instead? Has anyone tried this? Maybe I should... :shifty: I keep the stuff around anyway for making my own uber-cheap dishwashing detergent!

Alright, well, thanks for the response! I hope that more folks get interested in this thread, since I think there is just not enough said about how to do FF cultures!

-Carey Kurtz-


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 26, 2010)

No Carey, brewers' yeast and bakers' ("active") yeast are not the same thing.

There is no need to use citric or any other kind of acid in your mix. Look up the pH of vinegar (acetic acid).

and you will see that a few drops aren't likely to do much for the pH of, say, two cups of medium.

Some labs use methylene blue to culture the medium to make the white maggots more visible, others deem it detrimental. Carolina biological sells both flavors.

Somewhere, I posted pretty definitive instructions on how to make a medium that I would guess is about five times more productive than the masa flour mix, which no fly lab anywhere uses. To my knowledge, Hibiscusmile was the only person to try it so i won't be repeating it. Try searching under "paraben" and you may luck out.

Methyl paraben used at a rate of about 2 tsps per 5 cups dry volume will inhibit the growth of mold without killing the live yeast that is an essential element, not just to induce egg laying (it is _not _a requirement for that) but as a nutrient for the maggots. Paraben is hardly new. It was sold in Germany under a brand name in the 1930's. It was used in the fly lab where I worked and is still used in labs today. It is also used in the commercial mixes prepared by Carolina Biological and Josh's Frogs. I have seen no retardation of development at this strength, not that a day or so longer before eclosure would be much of a problem compared with losing the whole culture to mold.

Vinegar is not necessary nor very effective, though it is a great attractant for wild fruit flies if you want to start a winged culture. Some claim that it is a quick way to initiate egg laying because it is fermented, others use it to prevent mold, but the yeast has the same effect and starts to work immediately, and vinegar only kills mold on the surface of the mix, while paraben is mixed throughout the medium.

There are plenty of scientific studies on housefly and fruit fly nutrition on the web, together with several university labs' media formulae. I can give you the essentials in one sentence: a source of carbohydrate like oatmeal or potato flakes, live yeast and sugar for it to feed on, brewer's yeast for essential amino acids, paraben and, optionally, an additional source of animal protein like casein.  This mix will promote maximal growth in all of the fruit flies that I have tried. Good luck and let us know how you make out!

BTW, the masa flour thread may be the longest one on this site. Great entertainment value!


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 26, 2010)

No Carey, brewers' yeast and bakers' (active" yeast are not the same thing.

There is no need to use citric or any other kind of acid in your mix. Look up the pH of vinegar (acetic acid).

and you will see that a few drops aren't likely to do much for the pH of, say, two cups of medium.

Some labs use methylene blue to culture the medium to make the white maggots more visible, others deem it detrimental. Carolina biological sells both flavors.

Somewhere, I posted pretty definitive instructions on how to make a medium that I would guess is about five times more productive than the masa flour mix, which no fly lab anywhere uses. To my knowledge, Hibiscusmile was the only person to try it so i won't be repeating it. Try searching under "paraben" and you may luck out.

Methyl paraben used at a rate of about 2 tsps per 5 cups dry volume will inhibit the growth of mold without killing the live yeast that is an essential element, not just to induce egg laying (it is _not _a requirement for that) but as a nutrient for the maggots. Paraben is hardly new. It was sold in Germany under a brand name in the 1930's. It was used in the fly lab where I worked and is still used in labs today. It is also used in the commercial mixes prepared by Carolina Biological and Josh's Frogs. I have seen no retardation of development at this strength, not that a day or so longer before eclosure would be much of a problem.

Vinegar is not necessary nor very effective, though it is a great attractant for wild fruit flies if you want to start a winged culture. Some claim that it is a quick way to initiate egg laying because it is fermented, others use it to prevent mold.

There are plenty of scientific studies on housefly and fruit fly nutrition on the web, together with several university labs' media formulae. I can give you the essentials in one sentence: a source of carbohydrate like oatmeal or potato flakes, live yeast and sugar for it to feed on, brewer's yeast for essential amino acids, paraben and, optionally, an additional source of animal protein like casein.  This mix will promote maximal growth in all of the fruit flies that I have tried. Good luck and let us know how you make out!

BTW, the masa flour thread may be the longest one on this site. Great entertainment value!


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## PeterF (Oct 26, 2010)

Can someone explain the honey to me? I've never noticed that in mixes before. I know honey is generally pretty resistant to most bad things (mold, etc) but I have never heard it passing along those traits to it's mix. I have also never heard the opposite, and simply haven't ever thought about it.

Is there any data here?


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## GreenOasis (Oct 26, 2010)

The Ancient Egyptians used honey as a preservative in their foods (they've found dates soaked in honey in the tombs...which stayed good! Not that I would try eating them now, but...)  

I've also known many "brewers" in my day and they've mentioned that honey mead is one of the harder things to make because it's so difficult to GET honey to ferment!

-Carey Kurtz-


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## GreenOasis (Oct 26, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> No Carey, brewers' yeast and bakers' (active" yeast are not the same thing.
> 
> There is no need to use citric or any other kind of acid in your mix. Look up the pH of vinegar (acetic acid).
> 
> ...


See, this is why I wanted to post my results of my rather UN-scientific experiment.

It's not that I doubt the word of so many seasoned pros out here..I just wanted to share what I have learned through my own experiences and see what others have experienced as well.

It is indeed possible that I used WAY too much Methylparaben and that could've spoiled my results, but in my own minor defense, I was going by the directions from a website dealing in this stuff specifically FOR fruit fly cultures. (It said 1/3 tsp per culture, which is what I used.)

So, my plan for the next time around is to cut back on the Methylparaben (and still try some cultures with vinegar too...as I said, I want to find a method that works best for ME.)  

I did also notice that I got better results, faster, from using cider vinegar in the one culture. Anyone else notice this? Do you suppose that the "rotten apple smell" encourages faster egg-laying?

One thing I am shooting for here is an economical recipe that works at least nearly as well as the commercial stuff. Applesauce (or any fruit, really) is an expensive ingredient, so I was trying to see what I could use instead.

PhilinYuma: Any way you could post a link to that recipe you said you posted? I would like to try it. I noticed the last time I got a culture from Rebecca that not only did it smell pretty good...(Hey, I LIKE pickles!)...but it made THOUSANDS of flies! So, if she's using your recipe, then I would REALLY like to try it!  

Thanks!

-Carey Kurtz-


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## GreenOasis (Oct 26, 2010)

PhilinYuma: Nevermind about that link...I think I found it!

"For the fruit fly mix:

4 cups potato flakes

1 cup active granular yeast (if you like the mix, buy at least 2lbs Red Star brand -- cheaper).

1/2 cup casein or milk whey (Buy 5lbs from a body builder place. To get their discount, you have to send a pic of your quads or lats. I sent them a pic and they charged me an extra $15).

1/2 cup sugar (any kind)

1 tbs Paraben (Joe's Frog has a good deal).

NO vinegar!

I mix the ingredients using a stand mixer. If you don't have one use whatever you (or yr SO) use for cooking. You need to distribute that Paraben through 6 cups of mix.

Put a cupful of dry mix in a 32oz cup and add a cup of water. Let the flakes absorb the water and then add enough more to give it an oatmeal consistency. It will give off carbon dioxide, so wait an hour or so before adding flies.

OMG! Now I've given away the secret recipe and I won't be able to make my fortune!

P.S. If anyone uses this mix (exactly as described here!) would you please report on the result on this thread?"

This will be my next try. Thanks!  

-Carey Kurtz-


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## hibiscusmile (Oct 26, 2010)

I have used Phils and it was great, but I dont have any now, it was sent for a review. I use the following in my mixes: and they always have plenty of maggots:

potato

milk

whey

sugar

ground oats

real fruit (whaterver is available in my kitchen and getting old) ps, hubby is old &amp; a fruit too, but he don't go in! :lol: 

water

brewers yeast

bakers yeast

bee pollen

and for mold inhibitor: (dear God, I forgot the name...) had to go copy it

Calcium Propionate
​

I decided to go with the cal pro cause it is used in almost all bakery products and I could find a source for it, where the other is, is to hard to find.
​


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 26, 2010)

There you go! Rebecca's is the deluxe version of mine, for spoiled Ohioan fruit flies!



That "nice smell", by the way, is from the brewers' yeast. Rebecca's whey is very similar to my casein, and the calcium propionate is often used by labs either instead of paraben or together with it.


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## d17oug18 (Oct 28, 2010)

i use a simple base as well as you do, i think its potato flake, active dry yeast, water, honey and vinegar. I ALWAZ play around with different combos, and sometimes ill find a combo that makes the flys go nympho on me, sometimes i make one that get moldy after 1 day lol. Cultures are simple to me and im a bit of an inventor by heart so i like to play around with recipes =)


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## GreenOasis (Oct 28, 2010)

You should post a few of the ones that worked best for you! I'll try 'em all!

I couldn't find brewer's yeast at Walmart, so I suppose I will have to try Walgreens next. I know it is used as a dietary supplement (and I could swear I've SEEN it at Wally World before!), so it shouldn't be TOO hard to find!

My cups with the potato flakes have both started to take off (the one with the cider vinegar is still by far surpassing the other two, though!), the one with masa in it still hasn't done ANYthing. However, I did start another couple of cultures with the "Harvey-Peterson" mix...one with cider vinegar again, just to see. I've had good success with the "Harvey-Peterson" mix with Melanogasters. (It uses dry milk powder instead of "whey".) I'll have to let y'all know how that one goes! :cowboy: 

-Carey Kurtz-


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## GreenOasis (Jan 4, 2011)

Peter J F said:


> Can someone explain the honey to me? I've never noticed that in mixes before. I know honey is generally pretty resistant to most bad things (mold, etc) but I have never heard it passing along those traits to it's mix. I have also never heard the opposite, and simply haven't ever thought about it.
> 
> Is there any data here?


The only data I have is personal experience as an avid baker. I have noticed that my Challah bread (made with honey) lasts a LOT longer without molding than regular ol' homemade bread. Normal bread take about 2 days to start molding, but Challah takes almost a week!


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## GreenOasis (Jan 4, 2011)

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but I felt comfortable enough with my mix to start offering it for sale on the website. I still don't feel like Methylparaben is the best ingredient for mold inhibiting, but I have put a small amount of it in the mix anyway to help. I may still "tweak" the mix on occasion, but I feel it is productive enough to keep using it as it is as well. (The melanogasters REALLY explode on it!)

I have noticed the difficulty with acquiring methylparaben, though, so I may try Calcium Proprionate in the near future.

Thanks for the tips! I haven't completely forgotten about this thread...just got busy!


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 4, 2011)

Methyl paraben can be purchased reasonably at Josh's Frogs. Anyone who uses any of his prepared FF mixes is using a paraben mix, and Carolina uses both mold inhibitors in their mix according to a young woman in their fly lab with whom I talked yesterday. Paraben does, indeed slow maggot development, but not by much more than a day, in my experience. Since instractions like "1/2 tsp to a culture" are not of much help iif you use different amounts of medium, a good rule of thumb is to use 1TBS (15ccs) to 71/2 cups of your mixture.

Yeast and "molds" are both fungi, but grow rather differently. Yeasts produvce (asexually) by budding, and very cute they are. Molds produce powdery spores, and I suspect that it is these that are vulnerable to paraben. I have found that by adding variable amounts of paraben to a yeast mixture and then testing it by proofing with sugar water, it is possible to kill the yeast with it, but in smaller amounts (much smaller!) it inhibits mold growth but not the yeast growth or, of course,the bacteria that are another source of live protein, though they can be killed, unless they are acidophylic (acid loving), by bathing them in vinegar.  

Raising and playing with ffs can be fun, and here are two productvely fun things that you can do with them. Instead of measuring out 50 flies or whatever per cup (no joke if you're testing nine variables!) Just put all of the pots in a 12" cube and let the ffs have at 'em! That way, if some cultures don't yield and others do, you will know that it is because of the medium, not because the ffs were raised too close to Chernobyl.

Here's a fun and fairly accurate way to compare the yields of digfferent pots that you re comparing, without trying to count all of the flies that emerge (not fun at all!). Draw a 1" square, using a template and a felt tip. close to the top of the 32oz pot that you are using, on the outside of the plastic. Draw another one a little lower after rotating the cup a little and a third close to the bottom and a little further round. Do the same with all the others, drawing the squares at aproximately the same places and using the same template.

Now, when you want to compare yields, at least of pupae, all you have to do is count the pupae in those three squares. it won't tell you how many pupae there are in sum, but you will be able to compare the yields one to the other. Ain't that great?


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## Termite48 (Jan 6, 2011)

Laura G said:


> I never seem to be able to see the maggots until they are almost overflowing from the medium. I use the recipe in this thread: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7715 : and it seems to work well for me. That's the medium that's in the culture I sent you too.


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## Termite48 (Jan 6, 2011)

Does anyone on the Mantid forum have a small culture of Hydei for sale? How much including shipping? I live in CA

90746. I use Pay Pal.

Rich Sekerman


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## infinite213 (Jan 7, 2011)

When I started making my own cultures in November I used Green Oasis' method and ingredients:

Potato Flakes

Powdered Milk

Sugar

Water

Apple Cider Vinegar

Food Coloring

Active Dry yeast

I also started adding some of my whey protein powder which adds protein and a bunch of amino acids. (Got a huge case of it and only add a half a teaspoon)

I have found that you do not need mold inhibitor and it is just a waste of money. If you keep the consistency just right where it is moist but moves slowly when you tip the culture cup and add the flies right away the maggots will eat any mold that just starts to come up. It takes almost a week for the mold to start up at this consistency at which time the maggots should be eating. (I have found that the white mold grows faster if the culture is drier). Its a timing game but if you get it right you will do fine. Add flies immediately after placing medium in cup, if you wait a day you'll have mold.

Also I have taken Phil up on his advice about adding more yeast to the culture which not only increases yield as I have found but also speeds up the time at which the culture is ready and speeds up production of maggots.

Wild fruit flies will always produce faster then the flightless/wingless (in my experience).

Hydei will take a little longer than melangaster, Hydei takes about 2 weeks to produce pupae, wild melangaster 5 days, wingless 6 days. This has been my experience with the aforementioned culture ingredients. Started to use white vinegar instead of apple cider.

Wild Melangaster culture 5 days...







Wingless Melangaster culture 5 days...






Flightless Hydei culture 5 days...






Flightless Hydei culture 5 days drier consistancy, notice the white mold starting to grow...


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## infinite213 (Jan 10, 2011)

Question: Anyone know why my one of my Hydei cultures would have produced eggs but no maggots after 8 days?


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## infinite213 (Jan 11, 2011)

gio said:


> Question: Anyone know why my one of my Hydei cultures would have produced eggs but no maggots after 8 days?


Nevermind they just started showing up!


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