# Scientific v. popular names for mantids



## PhilinYuma (Sep 12, 2009)

Three members who consistently use binomials have recently spoken out against using common names. Those who use common names are seldom as outspoken.

This poll will give us an idea of how strongly each option is supported

As usual, given the material at hand, this is a hard poll to organize, so please bear with me. The easiest thing to to is just answer each question "yes" or "no".

Adding the total y/ns will give a meaningless result, so I shall analyze the three questions seperately at the end of the poll. As you can see, the statements are listed in order of strength of belief.

*Although it seems counterintuitive, please answer all three questions!*

_*In questions 1 and 3, vote "yes" if you believe either of the two options.*_

Yes, the poll is skewed in favor of those who use scientific names, but not greatly so.

Thanks for your time and help!


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## Rick (Sep 12, 2009)

I prefer to use common names. I am no entomologist and I don't play one on TV. It is just easier for me. I know it isn't correct though.


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## kamakiri (Sep 12, 2009)

I don't see no steenkin' poll!

I use both. I will continue to use both.


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## Emile.Wilson (Sep 12, 2009)

I prefer using Scientific names just to be more precise, because there are many names for certain species of mantids out there. It really confuses me when people use names like flower mantis, because that could be so many different species.


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## ABbuggin (Sep 12, 2009)

I mainly use scientific names when ever I am around people who know what I'm talking about (museums, internet, Rick lol) If I use them around normal people, they ask for english. :lol: That's when I use the confusing English names.  I also use English when I can't remember their Latin name, but sometimes this isn't possible because an English name doesn't exist. :lol:


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## Katnapper (Sep 13, 2009)

Emile said:


> I prefer using Scientific names just to be more precise, because there are many names for certain species of mantids out there. It really confuses me when people use names like flower mantis, because that could be so many different species.


+1


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## Kruszakus (Sep 13, 2009)

To be quite honest, common names are for lazy people. I really think it sounds dumb when people reffer to their mantids as "Flower mantis" or "Chinese" - just how many flower mimicking or Chinese mantids there are? You have to be more precise that that.


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## Morpheus uk (Sep 13, 2009)

If you lot ever kept stick insects you would no how ###### common names are, for example a giant spiny stick insect could go with a couple hundred species &lt;_&lt; 

I rarely do use common names but only for unique ones, like theres only one ghost mantis isnt there.


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## idolomantis (Sep 13, 2009)

Morpheus uk said:


> If you lot ever kept stick insects you would no how ###### common names are, for example a giant spiny stick insect could go with a couple hundred species &lt;_&lt; I rarely do use common names but only for unique ones, like theres only one ghost mantis isnt there.


This.

I believe you can also name a few hundred species giant green stick insect.


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 13, 2009)

Kruszakus said:


> To be quite honest, common names are for lazy people. I really think it sounds dumb when people reffer to their mantids as "Flower mantis" or "Chinese" - just how many flower mimicking or Chinese mantids there are? You have to be more precise that that.


I doubt that you will find many members who identify a species as a "flower mantis" any more than they will use the genus name "_Creobroter_" alone. Only one species is called "Chinese mantis," while the "scientific name" is still variously designated as a binomial or the trinomial _Tenodera aridifolia sinesnsis_. And how do we know which is correct? Ask Christian? At that rate we shall be in sad shape when he leaves the hobby! What source to we use. Giglio-Tos, written in Italian, Ehrmann, written in German? We all know that there will never be a translation of either, let alone those Chinese sources (surely the best for Chinese species!) that Yen uses!

And speaking of laziness, shouldn't you be writing your binomials in italics?


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## Christian (Sep 13, 2009)

I can't follow this argumentation. Taxonomy is science and scientific outcomes are continuingly changed, updated or rejected. Just because science is in a flux there is no reason to not use it. The frog people had to accomodate to much more new names that mantid people probably ever will have to. The low rate at which genera are revised or species described should allow most mantid enthusiasts to be up to date, particularly as there aren't much of those species in the hobby. I really can't see a problem here.

The Chinese mantis is called _T. sinensis_ for a long time, the trinomial _T. a. sinensis_ is old and outdated as the phonograph. It was already old when used by ecologists and physiologists and ridiculously kept through times although no taxonomist used it anymore. I couldn't trace why it was used anyway.


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 13, 2009)

Christian: Do German amateur ornithologists and lepidopterists and their organizations always/sometimes/never refer to their birds and butterflies by German common names? Thanx.


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## Christian (Sep 13, 2009)

It works well with birds. In fact, it seems that the bird people are the cause of all the mess, as they were those to name every species with a common name (not in Germany, but everywhere). It also works in mammals and reptiles, but becomes difficult in frogs and fishes, and impossible in inverts.

Did you get the trend? The more speciose a group is, the more difficult or impossible is it to find and use common names.

Of course native insects often have common names, particularly the large/conspicuous/beautiful ones. But most spider, beetle or fly species don't have common names, as they would be useless. The effort to search for and remember a name for every temperate species alone is so high it would be easier to remember the binomial. The temperate zone is relatively species-poor, if you go to the tropics you loose track. Almost no native tropical insect had a common name, with the exception of very common pests or butterflies. There are genera with 30, 100 or more species in certain insects and sometimes 10, 20 genera which are related and look similar or coexist in the same habitat. And new species are described regularly.

Indeed, as far as I can overlook it, in Germany the binomials are more often used, I know it for sure for beetles, butterflies, mantids, phasmids, centipedes, millipedes, tarantulas, scorpions etc. but also snails (maybe the only group which usually is referred to by vernaculars is the dragonflies, which is not difficult with its 80 native species or so). In fact, and I pointed this out before, using binomials is widespread over the world except the English speaking countries. I don't know why, maybe some cultural issue.


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## Peter Clausen (Sep 13, 2009)

We use names to communicate. The type of communication required is based on the communicators and the context in which they are using the words.

Two insect scientists will use scientific names, while two children will use very basic terminology. Let the children be children and discover the more appropriate terms if their passions follow. Even a person studying mantises on a scientific level needs to be able to communicate with the layperson. In fact, it is their responsibility to be able to "dumb down" their terminology, even if only for selfish reasons. For example, a scientist doesn't walk into a village in Africa and tell the villagers that he/she is looking for _Pseudocreobotra ocellata_. They'll think you're speaking Latin to them...and they'll be right! You won't even use a very basic word like "mantis". These terms are all meaningless in their language. You will begin on a level even more basic and express your target in pictures and maybe even gestures (think "charades"  ).

When you are speaking to a child, you will call this insect a mantis and another insect a beetle.

When you are speaking to _most_ adults, it is the same because they don't care.

When you are speaking about two different kinds of mantises, you call this one a European and that one a Chinese. The point of words in the first place is to distinguish between two things.

It is interesting to see the common names that become attached to species that are scientifically described, but which are new in hobbyists' cultures. It is equally interesting to see common names attached to species before they are described.

Clearly, orchid mantis has more general appeal than _Hymenopus coronatus_.

If you notice that another person takes the time to learn the scientific names, and these are clearly the most appropriate with respect to a unique organism, you should take the time to honor the person and the organism and use the scientific name. It is similar as to when a stranger calls you "dude" vs. a friend calls you by your name. We might also notice that many of us go by nicknames on this forum ^_^ 

It is ridiculous to expect most people to care that a particular mantis is named _Tenodera sinensis_.

It's okay for a person to decide for themselves whether they use common names or scientific names or even to type them in distracting blue text. But remember, the people you are communicating to may be distracted by your style of communicatioin and may be less interested in listening to what you have to say.

Communication on this forum is a blend of all worlds.

The reason we still see the trinomial _Tenodera aridifolia sinensis_ so often is because many biological supply companies sell the species under this name to the gardening industry.


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## Christian (Sep 13, 2009)

Other people are of no importance regarding this issue. And, of course, kids will not use a binomial.

The discussion was about using verniculars on the forum or, more generally, in the hobby. Here, the situation is different, as we all know waht we are talking about (well... some more, some less... :lol: ), so it is logical to use the denomination that all understand, and this are, like it or not, the scientific names. Vernacular names are not only inaccurate, but also regionally biased, so if you say Chinese mantis to a native Chinese, he will probably not know what species you are referring to. And a Mediterranean mantis can be any of the 23 occurring there.

The problem is not how we talk to other people but how we communicate accurately between us.


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## MantidLord (Sep 13, 2009)

Okay, um just some input: I try to say the scientific names as much as I can. But because I only know a handful of binomial names (particularly the most "common" species and the most "famous" species) I'll sometimes use common names for species that I don't know the binomial names (e.g., orchid mantis). But frankly, the reason why I know as much binomial names as I do know is due to this forum's (Christian and others) use of the proper terms. That and (as previously stated) a lot of species don't seem to have common names and their binomial names start to feel like their common (and only) name. I feel this way when talking about _Idolomantis diabolica_. That's just how I feel. But in regards to outside the forum I say common names when talking to my parents and peers and say the binomial names when talking to my science teachers and people who have some knowledge in what I'm talking about. Other times I'll just say both just in case they don't know what I'm talking about (although sometimes I may look like a show off  ).


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 13, 2009)

Well, what an interesting topic this is turning out to be!

One thing seems to be abundantly clear. A number of upwardly mobile young folk, who have not yet attended uni and whose scientific knowledge is still a bit wonky, seem to believe that the use of binomials, sometimes misnamed "latin names" and the like, brings them closer to being "serious hobbyists". Since most of them have never used a dichotomous key in their lives (and with a little luck may never do so, eh, Superfreak?), they are not sure why they should be using binomials and have invented the fiction of the ubiquitous "flower mantis" that is apparently used for countless species. I say "fiction," because, of the 100+ common names with which I am familiar, "flower mantis" is never used alone any more than a genus name, like Creobroter is used alone. Certainly there is a Taiwanese flower mantis, a jewelled flower mantis and even a West African flower mantis (Chloroharpax modesta--thanks Yen!), but these are as easy to tell apart as the species of any genus.

I think that Christian makes a fundamental point when he complains that English speaking people are the "worst" at using common names. He's absolutely right about that but mistaken, in the case on the U.K. and USA, when stating that common names work only for birds and mamals. That famous scholar, Robert C. Stebbins, in his definitive _Western Reptiles and Amphibian_s, not only gave common names to all of the reptiles and amphibians west of the Mississippi, but in some cases, improved on them, giving one of my local favorites the new name of Sonoran Desert Toad instead of Colorado River toad. There are about 775 species of Nearctic butterflies, excluding the skippers (Hesperiidae, below the superfamily level  ) and every one has a common name. The same is true of beetles. Who could resist the pleasant fungus beetle or the confused flour beetle? With regards to birds, there is an American organization, the American Ornithologist's Union, that authors a list of all the common names of birds in the U.S. (it was they who changed the name of my sparrowhawk to "American Kestrel" :angry: ). Perhaps, though some of the members of this forum might choose to get together to establish a list of common names for English speakers and clear up some of the minor confusion that still exists.

The use of common names may well be eschewed in Europe, but it is followed in the US, and also in England. I would never go on a European mantis forum and press the benefits of common names, and am not quite sure why some European members, welcome as they are, not only criticize Americans on this American forum for their use of common names, but accuse them of "ignorance" and "laziness." Such terminology almost smacks of religious conviction, where non believers are excoriated for their moral turpitude and threatened with damnation. In this case, that is represented as "ruining the hobby," nebulous and never defined, but apropriately scary. We can only hope that the "serious" binomial using hobbyists will be translated to glory before that happens.

There is another, more unfortunate, side to the use of binomials by folks with no scientific education. The likelihood of error is much higher than when using common names. The most obvious is the misuse of the form. The Genus name is capitalized, the species or trivial name is not. The commonest error is to capitalize the species name, but there are others, like writing both names in the lower case or, in at least one case, putting a comma after the genus name. I suspect that there are more erroneously used scientific names on this site than correctly used ones. Also, the unfamiliarity of the scientific names increases the chance of their being misspelled. Acromantis farmosa, anyone? As for ensuring whether we have the correct scientific name or not, how many people do we have on the forum who can make such a judgment? That's right! It doesn't leave much of a margin for error, does it?

Finally, as Christian and I have agreed, folks will continue to follow their same old ways regardless. I, though, think that the hobby will survive.


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## d17oug18 (Sep 13, 2009)

i just dont use most science names because i cant say them in real life, spelling there names is a heck of a lot easier than saying it to people in front of me, and when im trying to explain something and i stumble with the word im sure they start to think i dont know what im saying, Hestiasula brunneriana is nearly impossible for me to pronounce all at once but India Unicorn Boxer Mantis is not.

Also... +1 to phil's explanation.


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 14, 2009)

d17oug18 said:


> i just dont use most science names because i cant say them in real life, spelling there names is a heck of a lot easier than saying it to people in front of me, and when im trying to explain something and i stumble with the word im sure they start to think i dont know what im saying, Hestiasula brunneriana is nearly impossible for me to pronounce all at once but India Unicorn Boxer Mantis is not. Also... +1 to phil's explanation.


Hey, man. Don't sweat having trouble with the pronunciation. Have you heard how some Gabachos pronounce "llanta" (don't put them in dumpsters!) or "hijo"? It all depends on what you're used to. When I was a lad, we would have been expected to pronounce the "v" in "brevipennis"("short wing" and not to be confused with "brevipenis") or "virescens" ("growing green") as a "w" and looked down, as the very young often do, on anyone who pronounced it differently. There's a great French word "le snobisme" (esnobismo) that covers the situation very nicely.


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## wero626 (Sep 14, 2009)

Well the way i see it unless your tryin to be a scientist or something who cares about the scientific name it isnt important unless there are multi species of the same then you gotta put it..But where not tryin to major in mantids lol atleast im not haha its just a hobby for me thats my opinion on the matter.. =]


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## Ntsees (Sep 14, 2009)

I use both common and scientific names. I use common names when I think people will understand what species I mean. For example, in this forum, I can use the common name European mantid and everyone should know what species I'm referring to. But, in those cases where someone doesn't know what I'm talking about, they can ask and I'll tell them the scientific name. If there is such a thing, I'd like to know what other mantid species also uses the European mantid for it's common name besides _Mantis religiosa_. In regards to the "flower mantid" species, there are a lot of them and so scientific names would probably be most appropriate.

Or we can write like those peer-reviewed articles where both common and scientific names are used so that there will be no confusion at all: In central California, the Mediterrean mantid (_Iris oratoria_) is an introduced mantis species and has become naturalized in bla-bla-bla....


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## Christian (Sep 14, 2009)

When telling that there were some efforts to name all Nearctic birds, reptiles and amphibians, it just encourages what I have written about diversity. You can count holartic amphibians on a few hands, and even if the Nearctic has some very diverse clades (lungless salamanders), you still can overview them all and finally, name them vernaculary, if you like. Giving beetles vernacular names is nonsense. There are several ten, maybe 100, thousands of Holarctic species, you may name the large ones, but trying to give long and confusing names to the samller and diverse ones is just waste of time, as noone would use them.

Regardless what you do in the temperate zone, it becomes impossible for tropical taxa. How to name 60 identiocally looking _Eremiaphila_ species? Or over 100 _Hierodula_ species? Or 40 _Miomantis_? It makes things much more complicated, as you have to remember 40 different compound names, while only one generic and 40 specific denominations, not talking about regionally biased and similar stuff. Making mistakes while typing the name is not really a problem, I have seen most vernacular names spelled wrong regularly, so there isn't much a difference.

Reprising this "laziness" and "ignorance" issue, it may well be, and I don't have a problem with it, a biased opinion, but a well-supported one. Scientific names are understood by everyone, common names are regionally biased. In an international forum, irrespective by whom it is hosted, there should be an common language, so that all can understand it. It is accepted by everyone that the language to communicate is English, as it is spoken to a certain extent by most. I could argue that we should talk in German, or French, as the two most important mantid books were written in this languages. Everyone will agree that no English native wants to use a foreign language on an English forum; after all, the others joined it and have to adapt to the host language. This is ok, of course, otherwise some of us won't be here.

But, talking about scientific (= internationally understandable) names is different, as English isn't the language of choice here. I can't expect that Dutch or Belgians or French understand what I species am talking about in a German forum, when I am not using the binomial, even if they barely can read or write German. You can understand a language whithout knowing the regional names for species. But you can't communicate then on this subject. The "European Mantid" is known as the "Common mantis" or just "praying mantis" in Middle Europe. In Singular, as only one species occurs here. What should a Mexican or Malayan guy think of when talking about "Common mantis"? Most common mantid names are US-biased, and no native person of the introduced mantis would name its species "European" or "Chinese".

To make it short, what we meant by "laziness" and "ignorance" is that the whole international community agrees to use an international language, which is English for communication and binomials for species names, thus using two (!) foreign languages, while the Anglophonics, which don't even habe to use a forein language to communicate, also refuse to use binomials as the only foreign stuff they have to apply to fit the international communication rules.

I am aware that this lines may not be welcome by everyone, but I am far beyond caring of such stuff.


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