# Hymenopus coronatus orchid mate on back but no sucess in contact



## davestreasurechest (Sep 10, 2009)

please does anyone have any advice ,..wednesday 9/9/09 put female in males cage ,male followed her and jumped on her back did the drumming and made several failed attempts to make contact ,..any advice? does he need viagra ? it is now late thursday and im sure hes getting tired


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 10, 2009)

You do not have to worry to much about this unless it is the only male and he is in danger from her or on his last pink legs! The orchid male will a lot of times, sit and look at the female for hours or even days before mounting her, then when he does, he may mate right away or he may take a few days to get busy, this is typical of them, they will also sit there and tap tap tap on their backs while sitting there. If you think they are not ready yet, then remove him and wait another day, other wise leave them alone and they will eventually mate.


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 10, 2009)

thankyou Rebecca for your quick reply,... my first female died shortly after adult molt ,now this is my last female she is doing great been adult fro almost 3 weeks , the boy is getting old hes been adult for about 4 months, he obviouslly likes her and she doesnt seem to care,..

what do you mean last pink legs?

and yes these are the last 2 male and female i bought from you in march/april

I am Dave Magill (davestreasurechest)

he has tried to get down to her butt but couldnt ,should i try to help him out ?



hibiscusmile said:


> You do not have to worry to much about this unless it is the only male and he is in danger from her or on his last pink legs! The orchid male will a lot of times, sit and look at the female for hours or even days before mounting her, then when he does, he may mate right away or he may take a few days to get busy, this is typical of them, they will also sit there and tap tap tap on their backs while sitting there. If you think they are not ready yet, then remove him and wait another day, other wise leave them alone and they will eventually mate.


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 10, 2009)

I use my bamboo sticks to move them around, I like to get them in line for what I am up to, by poking her a bit to get her to move in line of where I need her and then putting the male on her back by her Butt! haha, your words not mine and then I just gently let the stick roll a bit till he realizes he can get off and wallaaa he is there, but if that is what is happening, if it were me, and yes the boys do mature before the girls, but they always live a long time, I would take him out and put him in another room for a couple days, sometimes they get numb from being around the girls and take no interest in them then, this is a big problem with males kept to close to the girls, at least I have found it to be so. Also they say to wait 5 to 6 weeks for the girl to mature before mating, some dont wait and it works, I wait, some do it within a week like I think Emille did and it works for them. It is all up to the breeder when to put together.

It was a joke, little pink legs, meaning like " on his last legs" before he passed!


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 10, 2009)

thank you , he has been on her back for almost 24 hrs ,he is just haveing a hard time getting his "thing" around her wings and into the right spot,..


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 10, 2009)

buginthebox said:


> thank you , he has been on her back for almost 24 hrs ,he is just haveing a hard time getting his "thing" around her wings and into the right spot,..


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## massaman (Sep 10, 2009)

he will eventually find it just might have to blow oh him to get him to get to the right spot!


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 10, 2009)

should i leave him on her back for another overnight ? you said a few days is okay ,..right?


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 10, 2009)

lol ! its like trying to mate a dog and a elaphant , poor little guy


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## Rick (Sep 11, 2009)

Well he's doing more than mine. My male gets on and sits there and does nothing. I won't leave them alone because he is the only male I have but I am running out of time. They can be difficult to mate.


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 11, 2009)

I would remove him, sorry about not answering last nite, had to go to bed.... I just removed two guys before I came on the site last night, as they were just sitting there and the girls are waiting and u know it cause they wont eat sometimes when the boys are just sitting there. So instead of chancing having nothing, I take them out, on the other hand if the boys are on their last pink legs there is not much chance of them living much longer I will leave them cause as Phil very well knows as do some of you, your darmed if u do and darmed if u dont!


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 16, 2009)

I removed them on september 12th and put Sarah back in her cage , today Sept 16th i just put Sarah back in his cage and put him right on her back

and went to drummin and trying to get it in ,..but she went to the top mesh and her wings droop down way to far for him,and she kept swatting her wings and scratching her butt,......So i took (him on her back) them out and put them in her cage on the bottom and gave her some honey, it seemed to calm her down , he was so close! he was in the perfect spot and he drummed in moved wrong and missed again,..those darn wings are just getting in the way! ,...a wife suppose to take her wedding dress off before bedtime &lt;joke&gt; !lol ,,i will keep posting,...prayers for Sarah and Chris

would be appreciated,...


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## massaman (Sep 16, 2009)

well not a expert on mating this species but I have a few species with long wings like the miomantis and well what seemed to work for me anyways was just leave them both in a empty net cage with nothing inside and give them something to eat first off in the net cage and let them be alone and then they did manage to mate and was a success as this technique worked on all 3 of my miomantis females with the same male and worked with my european and has worked with my creobroter species but not sure if this would work with yours but never hurts to give it a try!


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 17, 2009)

This is whats going on !


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## Rick (Sep 17, 2009)

Blow a quick breath on him as that will often make him do something. They can sit like that a long time before doing anything. You should have her hanging so her abdomen is flat against her wings and closer for him. If he doesn't do anything for several hours I would seperate and try again later.


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 17, 2009)

Has he been in another room? The scenes u showed are typical of the species, and her wings are not in the way, when he goes to mate, he will be a little (not much) one sided and his abdomen will turn into a U and it will happen, blowing does help, but hard to say what he is thinking, if he is in same room as her, he probably wont do anything.


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 18, 2009)

WHEN THEY MATE HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE HIM TO BE CONNECTED? COULD IT HAVE ALLREADY HAPPEND AND HE IS JUST ALONG FOR THE RIDE ,OR WILL HE GET OFF HER WHEN HE IS DONE?



hibiscusmile said:


> Has he been in another room? The scenes u showed are typical of the species, and her wings are not in the way, when he goes to mate, he will be a little (not much) one sided and his abdomen will turn into a U and it will happen, blowing does help, but hard to say what he is thinking, if he is in same room as her, he probably wont do anything.


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## ABbuggin (Sep 18, 2009)

Try relaxing on the caps.  

They probably havn't mated yet, this takes hours and you would of probably have seen them in action.


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## agent A (Sep 18, 2009)

In my experience, I have seen that using a different male is often the answer, and also, if the male is just sitting there, get the female crawling around because I have seen males sit on females and when she starts moving, he starts trying to connect.


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## Peter Clausen (Sep 18, 2009)

I've got a breeding pair of orchids together this week as well. At the moment they're outside getting some raw sunlight. I always feed the female before placing the male on her back in the exact bamboo-skewer method that Rebecca described so well. Only when she is actively eating do I do this. I took some video of it the other day, but don't have it processed yet. Also, as Rebecca described he will side-saddle her to a point it appears he is going to fall off or be eaten if she turns. And his abdomen is extremely flexible to make up for imperfect positioning.

Though he did mate with her last week, I've reintroduced him to her again this week. He does seem to have lost his ability to place himself in a suitable position, though I don't monitor the moment to moment movements since I've already observed coitus once.

I do keep an infrared heat lamp above the mating pair and the gravid female in general.

Since he is your only male, I'd definitely pull him out of the cage for a day's break every other day. Mine mated within an hour of introduction the first time, however the female was about 2 months matured before the male (born of the same clutch but kept cool and on a restricted diet).

I don't recall, but did you say how long your female has been mature?


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## Rick (Sep 18, 2009)

agent A said:


> In my experience, I have seen that using a different male is often the answer, and also, if the male is just sitting there, get the female crawling around because I have seen males sit on females and when she starts moving, he starts trying to connect.


Have you kept this species?


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 19, 2009)

This is my first time with this species.

mounting her is not the issue

him and wanting too and trying deligentlly is not the issue

this is the only male and female orchid i have

she is now 3 1/2 weeks adult

he is about est 3 + months matured

thank you all for your advice and comfort and prayers,

just hopeing and waiting till he does , i may remove him again for a few more days ,if nothing happends today



Rick said:


> Have you kept this species?


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## Rick (Sep 19, 2009)

buginthebox said:


> This is my first time with this species.mounting her is not the issue
> 
> him and wanting too and trying deligentlly is not the issue
> 
> ...


I was asking agent A if he had kept these before.


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## jarek (Sep 19, 2009)

I have the same problem, I will try and put the m into seperate rooms for few day, then I'm gonna feed up the female and reintroduce them my younger female is 20 days after the final moult, and the younger male 26 days after his final shed he does seem to be interested in her, but when he try to mate he can't conect properly, he did make a connection once with the older female but he let go afte a second and I don't know what's with that


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 20, 2009)

I make sue she is eating too, forgot to mention that, usually I get a moth, or superworm or wasp for her, so she has something to keep her interest, every now and then they will stop eating and turn to see what the heck is going on, and usually will return to eating, if she doesnt I take him away, sometimes they will drop the food I think from being scared when seeing this new site, but not really sure what they are thinking.


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 24, 2009)

I put Chris back in with Sarah the other day , and this morning before work, They were mateing !!!!!!!!!!  

So i have to say thanks for all the support and ,...Yo Chris you the Man-----tis!

they mated for about 4+ hours,.


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 25, 2009)

I was wondering , do you ahve to remate them after the ooth is laid each time? or all ooths fertile?


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## Katnapper (Sep 25, 2009)

buginthebox said:


> I was wondering , do you ahve to remate them after the ooth is laid each time? or all ooths fertile?


No, you do not have to re-mate. The female is now fertile for more than one ooth. Sometimes people like to re-mate after the second or third ooth just for good measure; but it's not really necessary.


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 25, 2009)

Just wondering ? she is 3 1/2 weeks adult and now pregnant ,when should i expect her to lay her first ooth?


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 25, 2009)

she has always been pregnant! just now fertile, usually between 6 and 8 weeks.


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## Borya (Sep 27, 2009)

In my experience, mating may last up to 6 hours.

But have you ever seen the male leaving female's back on his own accord? I didn't. When I put him away manually after mating, it looked like he definitely don't like to be taken away, and now I very doubt that I did the right thing.

Considering to the fact that male can catch prey while staying on female's back (I didn't see this among other species), I don't see any reason for him to leave such a safety place at all, that's because the bigger female can protect from other predators (wasps or other mantids), either carry to better hunting sites, like orchid flowers. While there are insects of different size coming to the flowers, female can take down larger ones, and male can feed on smaller, thus making no rivality.


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## Katnapper (Sep 27, 2009)

Borya said:


> In my experience, mating may last up to 6 hours. But have you ever seen the male leaving female's back on his own accord? I didn't. When I put him away manually after mating, it looked like he definitely don't like to be taken away, and now I very doubt that I did the right thing.
> 
> Considering to the fact that male can catch prey while staying on female's back (I didn't see this among other species), I don't see any reason for him to leave such a safety place at all, that's because the bigger female can protect from other predators (wasps or other mantids), either carry to better hunting sites, like orchid flowers. While there are insects of different size coming to the flowers, female can take down larger ones, and male can feed on smaller, thus making no rivality.


These seem like some very good points, Borya. And also, maybe he just wasn't done yet.


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## Rick (Sep 27, 2009)

I am having the same thing right now. Male has been on for most of the day. He is drumming and scooting down and his abdomen is even bending some but so far no connection. I'm just going to leave him there until I go to bed.


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 27, 2009)

I watched her try to flick him off but he is pretty smart ,and i believe a safe place for him,now that i have seen them mate alot of the presure and worry is off my mind, i have noticed now that her "butt" is curling or faceing up more and easier for him to do it , I am assumeing this is normal female development, HIBISCUSMILE said 6 to 8 weeks to lay ooth but wondering is that 6 to 8 weeks from adulthood or from mateing?

Rick, I left him on for 3 days at a time and removed him for fly and water and on the 3rd try he did it ,dont know how but he did ,i will probably try to mate them again just to make sure she is good and fertile ,before he dies he is however pretty old,..hope things work out for you as well ,...



Rick said:


> I am having the same thing right now. Male has been on for most of the day. He is drumming and scooting down and his abdomen is even bending some but so far no connection. I'm just going to leave him there until I go to bed.


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## Rick (Sep 27, 2009)

No go tonight. I removed him. I can't risk him, he is the only male. Sucks because she is going to lay an ooth any day now.


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 27, 2009)

in that case you have nothing to lose , is her butt angled up?



Rick said:


> No go tonight. I removed him. I can't risk him, he is the only male. Sucks because she is going to lay an ooth any day now.


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## davestreasurechest (Sep 27, 2009)

sorry i guess you have more females, how old is your male?


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## Borya (Sep 28, 2009)

Forgot to say, all species of mantids I've kept mate rather successfully when they have UV from L1 to adult (Repti-Glo 5, Sera Terra UV).


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## Rick (Sep 28, 2009)

buginthebox said:


> sorry i guess you have more females, how old is your male?


One male and one female. I've kept these before and they have always been slow to mate.


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 28, 2009)

The ooth laying is a long time, at least 2 months a lot of time before they lay.


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## Rick (Sep 28, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> The ooth laying is a long time, at least 2 months a lot of time before they lay.


I don't remember that since it has been over two years. However I sure hope it is the case with this one.


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## bassist (Sep 28, 2009)

Some _Hymenopus _are fussy about laying oothecae and may become egg bound, raise the humidity or put em on a wet plant.


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## Rick (Sep 29, 2009)

This guy thinks it is meal time. He needs to focus.


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 29, 2009)

He is! problem is he is focusing on what he wants, not us! Some of them drive u crazy. Sometimes it is so noisy in the bug room with the males tapping all the time, and not gettin down to business and the girls are just sitting there saying, enough with the drums, lets do this! I'm hungry! :lol:


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 29, 2009)

Yea Rick, I have mated some that are 7 weeks adult and at about 9 weeks they are just laying, so it takes forever with this species, and the only one close to it is the peacock! Talk about slow......


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## Rick (Sep 29, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Yea Rick, I have mated some that are 7 weeks adult and at about 9 weeks they are just laying, so it takes forever with this species, and the only one close to it is the peacock! Talk about slow......


She is at about five weeks now. He has been at it for three days now but no attempt to even connect. Drumming away as I speak. He stays on her and as you can see by the pic he caught a fly and then went back to drumming. I swear I don't remember this being so frustrating when I kept them before.


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 29, 2009)

haha, I gotta tell you, if he is doing that, he prob wont mate right now, Whenever mine do that, he ends up dinner or I have to seperate them because after three or four days, I gotta worry about her, because when they notice he is there, she won't eat and will flutter her wings trying to remove him, the last one that did that just got mated, it took 3 weeks of putting him in and taking him out! Sometimes I think he is just thinking he is at Disney World and she is just a ride for going around the park looking to see all the sights while being watered and fed on this nice soft back seat!


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## Rick (Sep 29, 2009)

So far she makes no movements towards him or flips her wings. I've been taking him out at night but putting him back on in the morning. He is a young adult so that is part of the problem.


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 29, 2009)

It takes the girls so long to become adult sometimes I lose track of the boys ages. When I clean their houses, they do get mixed up sometimes so I dont know how much that matters, I do know if they are really old they seem to have one last go and that is it. But young, I dont know about that. I know some say that the night is when they are best together for mating, I can't verify that, as some times as soon as u put them together it starts and other times, it starts at night, guess there is no real trick to it, just whatever they want...when.


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 29, 2009)

bassist said:


> Some _Hymenopus _are fussy about laying oothecae and may become egg bound, raise the humidity or put em on a wet plant.


Yeah. A lot of folks forget/don't know that when a female is egg bound, she is asking for more humidity! (Some, though, are just plain obstinate!).


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## Rick (Oct 1, 2009)

Finally! After five days of him sitting on her back he finally connected. Longest I have ever had it take for them to connect.


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## davestreasurechest (Oct 1, 2009)

SARAH LAID HER OOTH!!!!!!!!!!!!  

I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT 2 MONTHS

SHE JUST MATED SUCESSFULLY LAST WEEK.......

AND IS ONLY 5 WEEKS MATURED TO ADULT ,....WOW

PRAISE GOD! BELOW ARE SOME PICS,.....


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## Rick (Oct 1, 2009)

buginthebox said:


> SARAH LAID HER OOTH!!!!!!!!!!!!  I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT 2 MONTHS
> 
> SHE JUST MATED SUCESSFULLY LAST WEEK.......
> 
> ...


Good news. She took a big risk clinging to the glass to do it though. Surprised she didn't fall. Other than the curve which won't hurt anything she did good. I probably got mine mated right in time.


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## davestreasurechest (Oct 1, 2009)

Where did you get yours? maybe we can exchange nymphs in future for change in bloodline. if that makes a difference,I have heard it discussed

congrats to yours as well!,....



Rick said:


> Good news. She took a big risk clinging to the glass to do it though. Surprised she didn't fall. Other than the curve which won't hurt anything she did good. I probably got mine mated right in time.


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## Rick (Oct 1, 2009)

buginthebox said:


> Where did you get yours? maybe we can exchange nymphs in future for change in bloodline. if that makes a difference,I have heard it discussedcongrats to yours as well!,....


Won't make a difference for awhile but it is a good idea at some point. My male and female came from two different people so you could say i've already done it.


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## davestreasurechest (Oct 1, 2009)

I have had her in a net cage , and was worrying about temp and humidity ,so i made that plexi-glass cage to hold more temp-humidity (just yesterday) and that must have made it better conditions to propt her to lay, so what Phillinyuma and bassist said is right. Humidity and temp is apparently a big factor in ooth laying,.


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## hibiscusmile (Oct 1, 2009)

Well now all u's have to do is wait! The hardest part is over!


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## davestreasurechest (Nov 22, 2010)

Here i am years later with still no success in breeding, I have been trying and trying and have got advice from many sources and often complex and/or contradicting ,...heres what i have now

female #1 mated once at 23days adult layed ooth 2 weeks later and another in 2 weeks time (awaiting possible hatch)

female #2 mated at 18days adult and again at 28days adult and no ooths laid (under same conditions as fem#1)

if she is mated why hasnt she laid an ooth? if it take 6 to 8 weeks sometimes to lay,ok but i have had previously females

become eggbound and die without laying ANY ooths,and tried increase humidity,re-mateing,different males,different bloodlines,free rangeing,varied diet and nothing worked,and even had forum freinds have the same issues..urrgh this is very frustrating and expensive. :angry:


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