# Poll: Do Mantids Feel Pain?



## Andredesz (Dec 11, 2008)

Hello Everyone,

I am new to this hobby, but in my short experience I have witnessed the deaths of several mantid pets. Their life spans are short enough that if we acquire them as adults, we may only have a few months with them. I am not an entomology student, but I imagine there are some on these boards. I know there are many folks here for whom insect rearing is a hobby, and so I ask the following poll question knowing your experience will inform your choice.

I've noticed the same signs in mantids that are passing, they stop eating, they lose movement in certain areas, they just slow down as logic would imply. But anyone who has raised a mantid knows that those eyes follow you, and there seems to be intelligence there. For these reasons I am always conflicted about whether to allow a pet to pass on its own, or whether to use the fabled "freezer" method to end their suffering. but the question is, are they suffering? Do they physically feel pain the way we do; are they self-aware enough to think, "It hurts! Why can't I just die already" or maybe "I hope my mammal food provider does not kill me"?

So maybe a science-minded board member could hip us to whether there is scientific evidence that might inform us about the topic. Because I bet I'm not the only hobbyist who has wondered.

 

Carol


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## hibiscusmile (Dec 11, 2008)

Dear God, thanks Carol, sorry I read the post, now every time I have to freeze, I shall remember this... you people just rip my heart out without any concern for the pain I am in  .

On a brighter note, of course they feel pain, Gods creatures are all made the same. They get hungry, they get rest, they bleed, and they die, whats not to feel? If you accidently trap their little foot in the lid when closing it (not that I have done this) they pull and pull to try and get it out and thats how u know you trapped it.


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## The_Asa (Dec 11, 2008)

Don't believe they can feel pain exactly as we do, but there must be some kind of sensory management there that at leasts give an impression of pain


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## Headspace (Dec 11, 2008)

They process sensory input but they do it differently. You are not dealing with an organism that has much in common with you. While the head movement and tendency to "track" moving objects may appear to be a sign of intelligence, ask yourself this--how much of it is our tendency to anthropomorphize them?

Invertebrates have a nervous system that is markedly different from our own. It is decentralized and oriented around each component being able to operate independently of the others, instead of our central nervous system (CNS). When we feel pain, we always feel it in the same place--the somatosensory cortex of our brains. Your emotional reaction is processed inside your limbic system and it is not until the message reaches your frontal lobe do you comprehend "I am in pain."

Mantids and other insects do not have such sophisticated hardware (wetware?). Being able to process sensory input and react from it does not equate to feeling pain the same way as humans or for that matter vertibrates in general. While I am always concerned that they are uncomfortable, I am not under the illusion that they are feeling emotions. There is no evidence that they do. They react to sensory input, much like the computer science concept of a finite state machine. In a sense, they have much in common with robots--although they are arguably much more complex than any robot ever designed, and having the ability to reproduce, far more advanced.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 11, 2008)

hibiscusmile said:


> Dear God, thanks Carol, sorry I read the post, now every time I have to freeze, I shall remember this... you people just rip my heart out without any concern for the pain I am in  .On a brighter note, of course they feel pain, Gods creatures are all made the same. They get hungry, they get rest, they bleed, and they die, whats not to feel? If you accidently trap their little foot in the lid when closing it (not that I have done this) they pull and pull to try and get it out and thats how u know you trapped it.


Rebecca: I have not in the past, nor shall I now, have the temerity to contradict you, and if you say that mantises feel pain in Ohio, then that's good enough for me, but down here, in still primitive Arizona, I am glad to say that they do not.

You may have noticed that if you burn you finger on the stove, you pull your finger away before you register pain. This is because the signal is mediated through the spinal cord, through something called the "somatic reflex arc".

For this reflex to occur, there must be nerve endings in the skin, which is true of most vertebrates, but in insects and other inverts the epidermis is often replaced by a chitinous exoskeleton that contains no nerve endings and does not register touch, let alone pain. It seems pointless to get into nociceptors and the neocortortex, if only because they are well outside of my area of expertise, but I hear so much confused thinking on this topic that the following observations may be of help:

1) Insects can have an aversive reaction to noxious stimuli. This is not the same as "feeling pain". Some rap music has the same effect on me, and I move away or turn it off. The same is true if I move to the shade on a hot day, but in neither case do I experience "pain" in its usual sense.

2)Pain as we understand it is a survival mechanism for animals that can retain a memory of the stimulus. It helps us to remember to avoid that stimulus again. Inverts don't have a "brain" in the same sense as vertebrates do, and will not remember to avoid the stimulus. The human brain, interestingly, does not register pain; a needle passed through the cerebrum of a conscious patient will not cause pain. "Headaches" are experienced in the scalp.

3) We should be glad that they don't feel pain (at least in Arizona), since our mantises spend their time eating other insects and each other, alive.

4) Insects are "cold blooded" and become less active as the temperature drops, which is why we put flies in the fridge. Even mammals tend to become numb and go to sleep when exposed to freezing temperatures. Unless the temperature is quickly raised, they just don't wake up.

So there you have it. Send all your mantises down to AZ, and I'll ensure that they feel no pain!


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## Headspace (Dec 11, 2008)

> Insects are "cold blooded" and become less active as the temperature drops, which is why we put flies in the fridge. Even mammals tend to become numb and go to sleep when exposed to freezing temperatures. Unless the temperature is quickly raised, they just don't wake up.


Will I dream?


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## idolomantis (Dec 12, 2008)

I don't think they're going to have a good feeling if you pull any limp out.

When my cats had ripped one open i nearly could feel the pain myself.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 12, 2008)

Headspace said:


> Will I dream?


Indeed you will, Headspace:

Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.

Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments

Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices,

That, if I then had waked after long sleep,

Will make me sleep again: and then, in dreaming,

The clouds methought would open and show riches

Ready to drop upon me, that, when I waked,

I cried to dream again'

Except, of course, that you will never wake to cry to dream again!


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## Morpheus uk (Dec 12, 2008)

I let all my insects die naturally, if they have mis moulted and need to be put down they either get fed to something bigger or get bricked, yepo squished, far better than freezing them to death, squishing them quick is an instant death


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## shorty (Dec 12, 2008)

> If you accidently trap their little foot in the lid when closing it (not that I have done this) they pull and pull to try and get it out and thats how u know you trapped it.


Phil and Headspace hit the nail on the head and saved me a lot of typing! Thanks guys.  But I'd like to reply to what Rebecca said above. Of course they pull on their leg to try to get out of being trapped. Every single living organism on the planet, well multicellular at least, reacts in ways to avoid death. However, this does not mean they feel pain in any way. Like was already stated, massively different nervous systems. Us humans tend to anthropomorphize, or personify things. We look for patterns in everything that relates to us in someway or another without even thinking about it. I mean, when you do tear a leg off of a mantis, do they whither in extreme pain like if we lost a leg? No, they just walk away and go back to their business. And idolomantis, cats are mammals, and having mammalian nervous systems, they probably do feel pain in some sort. Even then, it is probably different than pain as we know it. Basically, mantids do have senses, just not like we know. They're pretty much very complex organic robots, as are all insects. Interesting thread though!



Headspace said:


> Will I dream?


2010 reference?


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## hibiscusmile (Dec 12, 2008)

:lol: I knew you guys would react! Sorry, and yes you are right, (Phil)our mantis in Ohio have much feeling, and (Shorty) when they get their legs free, they lick them like the dogs does  . (Idol) I feel it to, u did good! (Morpheus) I to have been known to quickly squish them when the necessity demands it, I do not like the feeling I get when a digit is freezing on me so I sometimes think of how I feel and that is really how I relate to everything around me, whether they feel the same or not is inconsequencial to me, because I only know how I feel and the Golden Rule I follow is "do unto others, (things, or insects, mammals, books ) as I would have them do unto me. Now before u say it, I do think a quick squish when I am about to pass on is preferable than months of suffering, not that I am asking for that, but u get the picture! ( I do not have a reply to you head space, cause I have to look in dictionary for that long word u used :lol: . I could go on all day, but u guys knew that didn't u? ps, most of the time, especially n warmer months, when I notice one of mine dying, I take them outside and put them on a bush, and I coould get into : yea now they are free and get to smell and all that stuff after being closed up all their lives, but I won't and u can't make me!


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## sidewinder (Dec 12, 2008)

http://www.bugsforthugs.com/2007/06/30/ask...g-or-feel-pain/

S-


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## The_Asa (Dec 12, 2008)

PhilinYuma said:


> Some rap music has the same effect on me, and I move away or turn it off.


Tru dat :lol: Thanks for clearing things up guys!


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## Rick (Dec 12, 2008)

Sense of pain? Yes. Intelligence? No.


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## Andredesz (Dec 12, 2008)

What an amazingly informative thread. I'm so glad I asked, and so grateful to all those who contributed! Knowing this will add to my peace of mind, and allow me to enjoy this hobby even more. I had a feeling I was projecting human qualities onto my little pets, but now I know that this is natural. Once I witnessed a cricket continue eating its own piece of lettuce while it was being eaten by my mantid, and I guess that should have been a big clue.  

Carol A


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## The_Asa (Dec 13, 2008)

Andredesz said:


> Once I witnessed a cricket continue eating its own piece of lettuce while it was being eaten by my mantid, and I guess that should have been a big clue.  Carol A


Sounds like something was wrong with your cricket :lol: You'd think they'd still have basic survival mechanics :huh:


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## Katnapper (Dec 13, 2008)

-Asa said:


> Sounds like something was wrong with your cricket :lol: You'd think they'd still have basic survival mechanics :huh:


Maybe he knew it was all over and a lost cause to fight... so he might as well still enjoy his last meal while he could!


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 13, 2008)

Andredesz said:


> What an amazingly informative thread. I'm so glad I asked, and so grateful to all those who contributed! Knowing this will add to my peace of mind, and allow me to enjoy this hobby even more. I had a feeling I was projecting human qualities onto my little pets, but now I know that this is natural. Once I witnessed a cricket continue eating its own piece of lettuce while it was being eaten by my mantid, and I guess that should have been a big clue.  Carol A


Good observation, Carol. An even more extreme example was provided by the French entomologist Jean Fabre at the end of the C19th. He witnessed a hunting wasp paralyze a bee and then, as is usual with the species, induce the paralyzed bee to disgorge its nectar which she licked up. As she was doing this, a mantis seized the wasp and started devouring her abdomen, while she continued to lick up the bee's nectar.

And if I've told this story before, that's OK LOL!


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## Rick (Dec 14, 2008)

I doubt they feel pain the same as we do however they must. If you hurt a mantis it reacts as if in pain but it is obviously different.


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## idolomantis (Dec 14, 2008)

I agree, pain is a warning that something is wrong with your body.

Every creature feels pain in a way.


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## critterguy (Dec 14, 2008)

Their was a set of photos somewhere of a male mantid who had been pretty much beheaded by a female in a mating incident and was cut off right below the raptorial legs. The keeper, curious, offered it an insect..which it promptly seized and began eating.


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## kakistos (Dec 15, 2008)

I think the main debate here is: What is pain? And there are many definitions.

I think we all agree that mantids register some negative stimulus, like having their leg trapped between the lid and it's enclosure. They have to, because they have to react to the stimulus to stay alive.

But would you call that pain?

I would not, in my eyes "pain" is the processing in your brain that something is not right or is harming you, and that you feel pain because of it. That you could do something about it. It does not have to be concious thinking, like words/language, but just the sensory pathway's signals that are interpreted by the brain. Then they feel not right, when given a choice they will avoid the stimulus. So mammals feel pain, because they have the brain and advanced sensory system, and they also have the use for pain because they can remember what caused it and then avoid it. Mantids have a very poor memory compared to vertebrates.

So in my opinion mantids do sense discomfort and react to it (they reaction is similar to a cat etc, like pulling at their trapped leg, but that's just because it is a adequate respons to being trapped), but they do not know or feel it's pain. They also are not altered by hormones or by emotions I think. They just don't need those, because they cannot do anything with it.

Very interesting and good posts in this tread! Especially by Headspace and PhillinYuma in my opinion. We should not anthropomorphise animals. If mantids show the same behavior we do (drinking, pulling at trapped leg), it does not mean they sense en feel the same: it just means it is a good respons to a stimulus.  

About the freezing: I do not think they will suffer when frozen. But maybe you should just do with them what you feel like is best, where you feel comfortable with. Because we will never know what they sense or what is better, and chances are it does not make a difference anyway.


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## Anleoflippy (Dec 18, 2008)

Mantis do feel pain...

When my dumb friend press his Malayan dead leaf mantis legs really hard the mantis quickly response and tried to run away...

I do believe mantis feel the pain the same as we do...


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## Dinora (Dec 18, 2008)

Rick said:


> I doubt they feel pain the same as we do however they must. If you hurt a mantis it reacts as if in pain but it is obviously different.


Ok, I understand they have an initial reaction to an event that has caused them harm, say an appendage has been pulled out, but once that appendage is gone, and they are existing with a missing leg, are they continuing to feel the pain?

Just thinking of the little guy I lost the other night. He/she he had gotten tangled in a molt, lost part of both front legs and lived for another hour afterwards - did that little guy suffer in pain for an hour? Should I have given it an immediate squishing to end it immediately?


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## Andredesz (Dec 18, 2008)

Dinora said:


> Ok, I understand they have an initial reaction to an event that has caused them harm, say an appendage has been pulled out, but once that appendage is gone, and they are existing with a missing leg, are they continuing to feel the pain? Just thinking of the little guy I lost the other night. He/she he had gotten tangled in a molt, lost part of both front legs and lived for another hour afterwards - did that little guy suffer in pain for an hour? Should I have given it an immediate squishing to end it immediately?


Hi Dinora,

I started this thread because I had similar concerns. Let me try to paste some quotes from this thread in this reply, the ones that helped me understand this topic. I have bolded the quotes of others, and italicized the points I think are especially helpful.

I think Headspace explained it really well:

*Invertebrates have a nervous system that is markedly different from our own. It is decentralized and oriented around each component being able to operate independently of the others, instead of our central nervous system (CNS). When we feel pain, we always feel it in the same place--the somatosensory cortex of our brains. Your emotional reaction is processed inside your limbic system and it is not until the message reaches your frontal lobe do you comprehend "I am in pain." Mantids and other insects do not have such sophisticated hardware (wetware?). Being able to process sensory input and react from it does not equate to feeling pain the same way as humans or for that matter vertebrates in general.*

Philinyuma's reply was helpful as well:

*You may have noticed that if you burn you finger on the stove, you pull your finger away before you register pain. This is because the signal is mediated through the spinal cord, through something called the "somatic reflex arc".*

For this reflex to occur, there must be nerve endings in the skin, which is true of most vertebrates, but in insects and other inverts the epidermis is often replaced by a chitinous exoskeleton that contains no nerve endings and does not register touch.

1)_ Insects can have an aversive reaction to noxious stimuli. This is not the same as "feeling pain"_. Some rap music has the same effect on me, and I move away or turn it off. The same is true if I move to the shade on a hot day, but in neither case do I experience "pain" in its usual sense.

2)_Pain as we understand it is a survival mechanism for animals that can retain a memory of the stimulus. It helps us to remember to avoid that stimulus again. Inverts don't have a "brain" in the same sense as vertebrates do, and will not remember to avoid the stimulus_. The human brain, interestingly, does not register pain; a needle passed through the cerebrum of a conscious patient will not cause pain. "Headaches" are experienced in the scalp.

3) We should be glad that they don't feel pain (at least in Arizona), since our mantises spend their time eating other insects and each other, alive.

And Shorty's reply was insightful too:

*Of course they pull on their leg to try to get out of being trapped. Every single living organism on the planet, well multicellular at least, reacts in ways to avoid death. However, this does not mean they feel pain in any way. Like was already stated, massively different nervous systems. Us humans tend to anthropomorphize, or personify things. We look for patterns in everything that relates to us in someway or another without even thinking about it. I mean, when you do tear a leg off of a mantis, do they whither in extreme pain like if we lost a leg? No, they just walk away and go back to their business. And idolomantis, cats are mammals, and having mammalian nervous systems, they probably do feel pain in some sort. Even then, it is probably different than pain as we know it. Basically, mantids do have senses, just not like we know. They're pretty much very complex organic robots, as are all insects.*

Salomonis provided us with this link that discusses this issue:

http://www.bugsforthugs.com/2007/06/30/ask...g-or-feel-pain/

Here is a link to a study that discusses the matter as well:

http://dels.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjournal/33_...2Question.shtml

Of course everyone's contributions were helpful, but I feel that the quotes above explain the science behind this issue.

 

Carol


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## Katnapper (Dec 18, 2008)

Nice work, pulling that all together, Carol!


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## Andredesz (Dec 18, 2008)

Katnapper said:


> Nice work, pulling that all together, Carol!


Thanks Nappy! I'm glad I started this thread because now I feel way better about feeding my mantises live insects. Also, my mantids have had so many limb injuries that I found myself suffering for them. Oddly, I'd noticed they didn't seem much bothered by their newly missing appendage, but still I felt bad. It's normal for us to imagine that other living things feel just as we do, that's just how we understand things. I had a teddy bear as a child that I was sure was being teased by my other plush animals for its missing eye. And my daughter, there is nothing she cannot personify. Even her toothbrush has a backstory. Our cat had been married to several different Disney princesses before he passed.  

Carol


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## Katnapper (Dec 18, 2008)

Andredesz said:


> Even her toothbrush has a backstory. Our cat had been married to several different Disney princesses before he passed.  Carol


Lol...  I understand! :lol: My son (age 9) still thinks one of our cats, Magic, is his best buddy because he (Magic) remembers and is grateful that we saved him from the Humane Society and being left in a dumpster.


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## Dinora (Dec 19, 2008)

Thank you so much Carol!

Seeing it all together (and with the italics) did help!

Oh, and my 11 yr old refers to his World of Warcraft, Diablo, Runescape (etc.) in-game characters as "he" - as in "He leveled today!" or "He out dps'ed the rogue in the instance last night" or "I need to play this guy more, he's getting bored because my hunter has been more busy than he has" - LOL

 Dinora


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## patrickfraser (Sep 1, 2013)

Bump...


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