# A New Discovery



## agent A (Jan 8, 2010)

First off, hi! Long time no post. Second, Micake's ooth hatched and many nymphs are L3. I am keeping the males together. Now the thing is, I noticed unique behavior between 2 males a few weeks ago. I am sure all of you know what it looks like when boxer mantids "box". Well I saw the 2 strike at each other, then 1 decided to make peace by "boxing" like a boxer mantis. The other one submissively walked off. My question is has anyone else ever seen "boxing" in any species other than boxer mantids?


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## ABbuggin (Jan 8, 2010)

I've seen it in:

orchids

dead leafs

cryptic mantids (sybilla pretosia)

acromantis formosana

spiny flower mantids

I'm sure I've seen a few others, but I can't think that far back lol


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## agent A (Jan 8, 2010)

wow! I guess that proves mantids are capable of communication. :lol:


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## MantidLord (Jan 8, 2010)

agent A said:


> wow! I guess that proves mantids are capable of communication. :lol:


Heck yeah. If not, then I don't think they would be able to survive in such dense populations (camo not being enough). Communication by physical means like "boxing", using the antennae, etc., appears to be some ways that mantids communicate without killing each other. Obviously, both mantids will probably not be hungry or see the other as a desirable meal for it to be "willing" to communicate. Great observation though.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 9, 2010)

MantidLord said:


> Heck yeah. If not, then I don't think they would be able to survive in such dense populations (camo not being enough). Communication by physical means like "boxing", using the antennae, etc., appears to be some ways that mantids communicate without killing each other. Obviously, both mantids will probably not be hungry or see the other as a desirable meal for it to be "willing" to communicate. Great observation though.


Yes, that really is good observation and has been the subject of at least one scholarly article (see if you can talk the rents into forking out $30 for a copy!): http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...864680/abstract.

There's no doubt that your nymphs are being "territorial" in a very limited sense. Mantids do not patrol and guard an area like a tiger or a Thompson's gazelle, and starvation will cause them to move to a different area, but if a wandering conspecific of about the same size approaches, he will respond to what is essentially a "fright reflex" (and I think that Marshall Edmunds uses that phrase in another paper) by retreating. This behavior reduces cannibalism and increases the odds that each nymph wil recieve an adequate number of prey, so it is likely to be selected for.

Many scientists, I have discovered, have a very fuzzy idea about language and tend to use it in specialized and often idiosyncratic ways. My hero, O.E. Wilson's specialized use of the term "social altruism" is a case in point. Whether or not we say that mantids communicate may be merely a matter of semantics. Obviously communication among eusocial insects, like the directional dance of honey bees is very different from a gesture made by a solitary insect like a mantis, and not just in complexity. Say that there was a kid at school who, whenever you got within ten feet of him became terrified and started screaming. Presumably, you would move out of range if he started to scream, until he stopped, but I doubt if you could call the manifestation of his terror communication.

In any event, keep on observing, keep a cogent record of your observations, and research their meaning as best you can, including by asking questions here.


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## yeatzee (Jan 9, 2010)

ABbuggin said:


> I've seen it inrchids
> 
> dead leafs
> 
> ...


can vouch for the above


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## planetq (Jan 9, 2010)

I see it mostly with my P.paradoxas (Ghosts)

But in captivity I have really only kept those and G.Gongyloids in communal space, and I separate all my other species, so I'm not risking anything.

The Ghosts seem to do it a lot.

I have never really seen G.Gongyloids ever really do it. They are definitely the nicest species I have kept. When they notice each other they simply just move out of each other's way.

Makes it easy for me haha.


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## agent A (Jan 9, 2010)

I am still confused, they only did it when they first met each other, they don't do it anymore and I put a new one in. But I don't watch them all day so maybe they are doing it still. For all I know, my animals could have parties in the room while I'm at school. :lol:


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## Matticus (Jan 12, 2010)

I think it is a bit anthropomorphic to call it "communication", but it's definitely interesting behavior.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 12, 2010)

Matticus said:


> I think it is a bit anthropomorphic to call it "communication", but it's definitely interesting behavior.


 I thought so too (see above) but the term is in common use by entomologists, even for non-social insects.. Chapman devotes over 70pp to various forms of insect communication, so I guess that we are overruled!


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## sufistic (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't know if this is categorised under 'communication' but it's quite an interesting discovery.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 12, 2010)

sufistic said:


> I don't know if this is categorised under 'communication' but it's quite an interesting discovery.


Very cool! Thanks for the link!


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## sufistic (Jan 12, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> Very cool! Thanks for the link!


No worries Phil, I knew you'd love it.


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## massaman (Jan 12, 2010)

I seen my giant asians do it when they were sub adults and nymphs as when one mantis got to close to another one it would put up a threat display I guess telling the other one to stay away or it will lay the smack down and never really seen them get too rowdy but I have seen the creobroters get a little slap happy if another gets too close!


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## idolomantis (Jan 14, 2010)

Seen my Gongies do it :/ I have no idea why.

I do Know gongies often go retard mode.


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## yen_saw (Jan 14, 2010)

All mantis species do the boxing display especially during the younger stage, seems to warn others not to invade their territory. Could be seen more often especially they are kept in group.


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## MantidLord (Jan 14, 2010)

yen_saw said:


> All mantis species do the boxing display especially during the younger stage, seems to warn others not to invade their territory. Could be seen more often especially they are kept in group.


+1 As in _The Praying Mantids_, it was stated that nymphs are more prone to engage in cryptic behavior (whether or not you define boxing as cryptic behavior), while adults were more likely to use the diematic display.


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## agent A (Jan 15, 2010)

yen_saw said:


> All mantis species do the boxing display especially during the younger stage, seems to warn others not to invade their territory. Could be seen more often especially they are kept in group.


yeah, odd thing is I have an L4 creobroter with 3 L3, and the L4 is scared of the L3, which is almost half his size


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## agent A (Jan 17, 2010)

alright, I just noticed a spiny flower mantis doing the "boxing thing"- to a cricket!!! &lt;_&lt; :angry:


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## bassist (Jan 20, 2010)

agent A said:


> yeah, odd thing is I have an L4 creobroter with 3 L3, and the L4 is scared of the L3, which is almost half his size


I've seen a fifth instar _Hierodula membranacea_ do a threat display to a _Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii_ second instar so it's really not surprising.


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## Eoullis (Jan 20, 2010)

I have 3 L3 African nymphs. They have all been eating like little pigs. Last night one of the nymphs had zero interest in her pinhead. This morning I fed the other two a pinhead and pulled out the non-eater. When the pinhead approached her she kind of slapped him away (boxing?). The pinhead was really dense and just wasn't getting it. The pinhead kept approaching her over and over. Finally, I guess she got pissed and slammed the pinhead literally smashing the thing into the grid of her lid top. My guess is she's getting ready to moult.

I was reading this topic and thought I could share this.


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