# Idolo death mystery!



## Psychobunny (Mar 17, 2012)

I got my very first ever idolos, 4 of them, a few weeks ago from Yen (I think!!??). One has alredy molted twice, and

2 are big enough to put in 12'' net cages.

Well, one of them (in a 12'' net cage) was found dead on the floor of the cage yesterday!

There was no unusual discoloration nor any discharge coming from the body.

There were a few small stains inside which may be vomit, unknown!!??

I feed it only BB's, which it ate the day before it died.

I keep them on a UTH (Ultratherm from Bean Farm) at 90F and the room RH is 50% via 3 humidifiers going 24/7.

The other 3 idolo's are fine.

I can not figure out why on earth this one died so suddenly!!

Any thoughts???


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## gripen (Mar 17, 2012)

Had that happen to me as well. No idea why though.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 17, 2012)

Seems they just die off with out a clear reason.


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## Bryce08 (Mar 17, 2012)

My friends 2 idolos did the exact same thing, and we could NOT figure out what caused it...I have been lucky I guess with mine


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## Psychobunny (Mar 17, 2012)

Normally, when I find a dead one on the floor, there are signs, like discharge from mouth or anus, or body

discoloration, or black eyes, or something!!

This body was perfect! I almost expected it to wake up in my hand!!

Very strange. It was a new cage as well, so no cleaning chemicals or anything like that!!


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## gripen (Mar 17, 2012)

Yeah same thing with mine. No clue why to this date. I could be something to do with the conditions. My conditions are all most the exact same as yours and I had the same problem. It may be a coincidence but idk.


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## twolfe (Mar 17, 2012)

I've had it happen to me as well with this species. My temps for the Idolos are in the 70s - 80s.


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## Psychobunny (Mar 17, 2012)

Maybe a birth defect of some kind?!

That's the only thing I can think of :no:


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## brancsikia339 (Mar 17, 2012)

Same happened to me. Really sad


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## Colorcham427 (Mar 17, 2012)

Your idolo was in perfect coloration because it died very recently, sorry.

Does your room have a lot of plastic?

How clean is it?

Humidifiers can cause a bed for bacteria to party in...

Idolos seem fairy susceptible to bacterial infections.

Do you have any pictures of their net cages? I wash mine every month, regardless of how white it looks.

Did your idolo come from a wild caught ooth?

Sorry for your loss. In my experience, 'some' idolos do not digest their food as fast as other idolos. I believe it has to do with what ooth they came out of, depending how healthy the females was. Another 'guess' of mine is that if a nymph does not have much space to walk around in and exercise, it does not digest it's food as well as it would if it had much more space.

Suggesting your nymph from dying of fecal impaction, was his/her belly very fat?


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## dlemmings (Mar 17, 2012)

DEATH by fecal impaction...oh the agony!


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## warpdrive (Mar 17, 2012)

I guess I'm about to die, because everyone knows I'm full of %$^&amp;. :clown: 

anyway, I'm sorry to hear of your loss. I have no idea why it could happen, but I agree with Brian in that humidifiers need to be cleaned often and the room too.

Harry


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## angelofdeathzz (Mar 17, 2012)

About one out of ten can die this way on average, I feel it's just a bad molt before it happens from what I've noticed, it's always a Idolo that is old in it's instar, I've had the mystery death many times in 300 or so tries at adulthood...

If you have 2 L2-3 Idolo your chances at a adult are 50-50 or so, well that's my best guess anyway for someone that hasn't got some to adult before?


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## angelofdeathzz (Mar 17, 2012)

Psychobunny said:


> Maybe a birth defect of some kind?!
> 
> That's the only thing I can think of :no:


Your bunny looks totally psycho!!! in-case I never mentioned it? :lol:


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## Bryce08 (Mar 17, 2012)

angelofdeathzz said:


> Your bunny looks totally psycho!!! in-case I never mentioned it? :lol:


thats it!!!

THE BUNNY DID IT!!!


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## sporeworld (Mar 17, 2012)

Yeah - I saw losses at L1-L2 that were unexplainable. But most times, I witness odd behavior prior to death, and had already separated them from the others. It did seems to happen near molting time.


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## Psychobunny (Mar 18, 2012)

Brian Aschenbach said:


> Your idolo was in perfect coloration because it died very recently, sorry.
> 
> Does your room have a lot of plastic?
> 
> ...


You are right, esp the cool mist type of humidifiers.

I use Holmes Humidifier Bacteriostat concentrate in the water. It's a great, and needed product.

All my idolo's are captive bread.

There is one thing, I tried an experiment using a IR heat emmiter placing over the edge of one of my Idolo's

12'' net cage.

I have it about 6'' from the cage and measured the warmest spot at 109F.

I provided a temp gradient so the idolo could move about and find the temp he likes best.

Lo and behold, he parks himself directly under the heat emmiter and loves it!!

This tells me, given the choise, they will gravitate to the warmest spot if given the opertunity.

So, I am forming a theory the one who died was due to dropping night time temps.

So maybe temp is the culprit here!?


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## Psychobunny (Mar 18, 2012)

xxFaultxx said:


> thats it!!!
> 
> THE BUNNY DID IT!!!


HaHa!! they dont call me the Kwazy Wabbit for nothing ya know!!


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## sporeworld (Mar 18, 2012)

Psychobunny said:


> Lo and behold, he parks himself directly under the heat emmiter and loves it!!
> 
> This tells me, given the choise, they will gravitate to the warmest spot if given the opertunity.


Could be. I kept pushing the limits, and eventually had the lamp sitting on the top screen in a metal housing (so the bulb was maybe 2 or 3 inches away at most). This was the threshold for them... they'd sit around the edges, but not directly in it. Soon after that, I mounted the lights about a foot above the enclosure, which kept most of my Idolos in the 100-105 range at the top (during the day). Just had to be more diligent about keeping the enclosure hydrated above 40%RH until adults hood.


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## angelofdeathzz (Mar 19, 2012)

Is it not humid where your located Mark? I still think 105 is a bit high, 90-95 is at the top of what they want and need unless it for mating, But I do know it seems to work for you!  so who's to say? you got the job done so it must work for you. Curly compact floros get the heat around 88-90 in my set ups.

PS: I got my first adult male and female 1 day apart with more on the way... one of my first couple ooths will be coming your way old friend!


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## Psychobunny (Mar 19, 2012)

Sporeworld said:


> Could be. I kept pushing the limits, and eventually had the lamp sitting on the top screen in a metal housing (so the bulb was maybe 2 or 3 inches away at most). This was the threshold for them... they'd sit around the edges, but not directly in it. Soon after that, I mounted the lights about a foot above the enclosure, which kept most of my Idolos in the 100-105 range at the top (during the day). Just had to be more diligent about keeping the enclosure hydrated above 40%RH until adults hood.


I know it. Providing high temps + 50% RH + good ventilation = a tough job!! LOL


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## sporeworld (Mar 19, 2012)

angelofdeathzz said:


> Is it not humid where your located Mark? I still think 105 is a bit high, 90-95 is at the top of what they want and need unless it for mating, But I do know it seems to work for you!


Yeah - I don't think the high heats are necessary (and you've proved it). I work insane hours, and so neurotically spray and generally hover around my desk hobbies (bugs) whenever I need a breather (comparable to a smoke break for others). But it's super dry here (Los Angeles is pretty much still a desert). And even if it wasn't, constant AC sucks all the moisture out. I had no luck with large room humidifiers (my workspace is about 1k sq ft) and the foggers became impractical at 18+ cages. But repetitive spraying seems to be just right.

In any case, I still have the caresheet on the Consolidated thread listing 80-90f.

BTW&lt; how'd you get the male and female so close together...? Different ooths, or technique...?


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## angelofdeathzz (Mar 22, 2012)

Sporeworld said:


> In any case, I still have the caresheet on the Consolidated thread listing 80-90f.
> 
> BTW&lt; how'd you get the male and female so close together...? Different ooths, or technique...?


Yeah there from different ooths but oddly enough they hatched only 1.5 weeks apart, I separate the males at L5-6 and they stay a few degrees cooler till adult.


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## sporeworld (Mar 22, 2012)

Sweet.


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## Psychobunny (Mar 23, 2012)

Now that the weather has gotten warmer here, I turned the gas heat off and that means my

RH will go way up esp. with 3 humidifiers going.

I looked yesterday and the RH was 68%!!

Even noticed the room has misty, like a jungle !!LOL

I should cut down on misting I guess!?

I have 5 idolos now subs, 10 L2 cilnia's, 4 L3 orchids, 3 l3 T. gracilus (spelling???) and various

lineola, blue flash, creo's, and I forget what all else!

I am going to post some pics this weekend of my whole set up for your comments and advise.

Should I knock down the RH a bit??

I keep the orchids at 90 to 100F, the cilnia's about 90 (they are in a 12'' net cage), and the idolo's

also about 90 to 100F (I give them a temp gradient so they can move to whatever spot suites them).


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## Psychobunny (Mar 25, 2012)

This sux, another idolo droped dead!!

It was hanging from the top of a net cage and was molting, so I left it totally alone.

I did mist it twice but I sprayed away from the mantis so it would not get wet.

The room RH was already 60% and temp was 90F, so maybe too much humidity???

Now I only have 3 out of 6 idolo's and those last few molts to adult seem to be where

they are dieing. :no:


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## sporeworld (Mar 25, 2012)

I've never experienced high humidity as a problem. What kind of enclosure did you say you had...? And did you alter the top to sticks or nylon?

If the top material is correct, you can quite honestly (IMO) remove ALL other items in the enclosure. Your mantis will climb it's own skin. The bulk of folk here will recommend a complex arrangement with plenty to climb (and that works for them), but I've seen more cons than pros with that (twisted flips, improper wing inflation, etc).

In the beginning (first pic), I scrambled ramps, and nets and sticks and flowers to aid in "the flip". In the end, nothing mattered more than a good, solid grip on the ceiling from the old skin. No need for a cushion "if they fell", since the good grip ensured that they wouldn't. Once the system was in place, I stopped worrying, and life was grand! Eventually, I removed everything for the final molt, except a bare minimum of Bio-Vines of Sponges to help them wander from bottom to top, if needed.


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## angelofdeathzz (Mar 25, 2012)

Sometimes even with your best effort this still happens, your RH seem fine not to high by any means, as Sporeworld stated what they molt from is crucial in the last 2-3 molts, net cages are great for L5-6 and under only as the mesh is to fine for their large grasper's. What do you have on the top of the enclosure?


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## Psychobunny (Mar 26, 2012)

It was on the net material of the cage, it's very fine mesh. Are you guys saying I need

some larger net (as shown in your pic)?

That would make sense to me, as they are falling to the floor with old skin still attached to them

instead of attached to the net like it should be.


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## angelofdeathzz (Mar 26, 2012)

yes, either the stuff you see in Spores pic or real straw sized sticks from outside, which is what I use, well and it's what they use in the wild I believe, lol.


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## Psychobunny (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks U guys, I think this may have solved my problem.

I have a mesh nylon bag at home that I have been cutting up to glue inside

a few mantis boxes. When I get home, I will do some mods  

I have 2 more L5's coming from Yen to replace the dead ones.

Your pic was a great help because now I understand what they need for succesful

molting.

The mesh I have been using must be way to small for them to get a good grip on and

wiggle out of their old skin.

You guys just made my day


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## Psychobunny (Mar 26, 2012)

angelofdeathzz said:


> yes, either the stuff you see in Spores pic or real straw sized sticks from outside, which is what I use, well and it's what they use in the wild I believe, lol.


Got any pics of this setup ?


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## sporeworld (Mar 26, 2012)

Check the Consolidated page - lots of photos and discussions there (and well worth the time to skim it).

Most important is something they can get a grip on (or into).






I just glue the material to the top, and sometimes to the sides (remember, they can't climb glass).






I also glue... struts, I guess you'd call them... every 6-8" apart to add support. You can see them in the photos.


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## angelofdeathzz (Mar 26, 2012)

Sporeworlds are nice and should work great, here's something I've come to like that seem's easy, cheap, and natural.


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## sporeworld (Mar 26, 2012)

Yup! Both have historical (and photographic) proof of concept.


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## Psychobunny (Mar 27, 2012)

I hot glued some twigs to the lids of my idolo containers.

Dont have a large scale encloser like you guys, just one 80oz deli tub per mantis.

I cut "windows" all around the tubs and glued screen to the inside all the way around so

there are no slipery spots.

I also placed a lamp overhead so the mantids will be drawn to the lid instead of the sides.

This should work, I can already see that they walk around better upside down on the little twigs.


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## sporeworld (Mar 27, 2012)

I don't think (or predict) you'll be able to go much further with deli cups for these guys. What are your plans for the last instars?


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## Psychobunny (Mar 28, 2012)

Sporeworld said:


> I don't think (or predict) you'll be able to go much further with deli cups for these guys. What are your plans for the last instars?


That's a very good question!

I have several terrariums. I have 2 of the model in the above pic (if it's the 12 X 12 that is!!).

A bunch of the larger size critter keepers which I have already modified for their use.


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## angelofdeathzz (Mar 28, 2012)

That's a 18x18x24 in my pic, but the 12x12 will work great, have quite a few of those too. I would def not molt a L5 in a 80oz deli if I were you.


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