# Phil's Phamous Entomological Explanations



## PhilinYuma (Mar 9, 2010)

I've thought about starting a thread that deals with some of the questions that we mantis keepers often ask: Is gut loading a good idea? Why does a nymph molt? What part of a mantis is the crop? and the like.

My answers would be Wikipediaish in style, simply quoting non controversial views (unless stated otherwise) of published experts. It would also contain on line and textual references.

I thought that I would start with nutrition if people are interested. I'm not proud, so if three members express an interest, I'll write up a post (it will be longer than most other topics, I fear), but if less than three are interested, I'll save time and space by letting it go by.

A nutritional post would deal mostly with the types of food required by mantis prey larvae, and something on adult insect requirements.

Let me know what you think, and if you are interested in a particular aspect of what makes mantids tick, please add that too.


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## sbugir (Mar 9, 2010)




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## JayzunBoget (Mar 9, 2010)

This sounds like an awesome idea. I , for one, tend to be better able to learn all of the idiosyncratic little "what to do"s of specific exotic creature keeping if I can learn the "why"s along with them.

I'll better understand and remember things like E. pennata faring poorly on a cricket diet if I know what the issue is, nutritionally speeking.

I hope many people show an interest in your proposed thread. I would like to see what becomes of it.


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## ismart (Mar 10, 2010)

I think this is a great idear phil. Please go through with it.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 10, 2010)

Ditto, and hey to Jazbun, I think I can successfully remove your head from that thing that ate you, it will be a bit painful and you may have to live on a stick or something like that, but it would probably be better than how u r living now. Give me a ring if u need me :tt2:


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## kookamonga (Mar 10, 2010)

Sign me up!


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## Katnapper (Mar 10, 2010)

I think it's a great idea, Phil!



I'd love to find out more about mantid's nutritional requirements, and similar aspects of recommended (or not) feeding issues!  You do all the work researching



, conjoined with the substantial amount of information you already know... and I'm sure lots of us would be grateful for the resulting assemblage of information.


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## revmdn (Mar 10, 2010)

What's a crop?


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 10, 2010)

I am just guessing, as some on here already know, but from what I read from Kats last question and poll, I tend to believe it is the secret place where a mantis food goes while being digested!



oh and Phil, I 'll say it for you,,,,, google is our friend! but we rather u tell us! :tt2:


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 11, 2010)

revmdn said:


> What's a crop?


A short horsewhip without a lash.


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## Katnapper (Mar 11, 2010)

revmdn said:


> What's a crop?


Corn, beans, wheat, rice, sunflowers, cotton, etc....








Here is a good explanation... about 2/3rds of the way down the page. (Plus some very interesting and educational information about other parts of insect anatomy.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 11, 2010)

haha, stupid farmers! stupid city folk


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## revmdn (Mar 11, 2010)

:lol:


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 11, 2010)

_*The Science Behind Making Larval Food Media*_

Recently, I passed on some wrong information about using flax seed oil and carotene in housefly larval media. This is my penance.

Insect nutritionists tend to raise insects on one of three kinds of diet, "natural", for those who like to compare 

 the benefits of cow, swine and goat dung, sterile, when studying specific nutritional components free from 

contaminants like bacteria, which have considerable food value, at the cost of adult size and fecundity, and artificial diets, like the veteran CSMA diet, 

Gainesville housefly diet, Purina rodent chow (!) and our own dog food/cat food concoction which most closely 

resembles the Rodent chow. It is useful to recognize the difference if you are reading an article on the subject. 

The purpose of a good artificial diet, unlike a sterile one, is to produce the most and largest adult insects possible.  

There is no "ideal" insect diet for at least two reasons. Researchers in the '60s suggested that dipterans 

(two winged flies of all sorts) will adapt to a given food over a few generations to optimize fecundity (urge to merge), and 

insects cheat, to put it bluntly, by using one nutrient to "spare" or substitute for another, though this ability is limited. 

Culture media that will do a good job of nourishing fly larvae will not always stimulate the fly to lay eggs on it. 

This point is made by Orin in his fruit fly sticky, and it applies equally to house and flesh flies. Houseflies will not 

lay eggs in a fruit fly culture, but housefly eggs/maggots will thrive on a ff medium, usually with cellulose – wood 

shavings or sawdust –added. Such a mixture is the basis for Carolina's HF medium. Flesh flies, blue bottles and 

the like will thrive in a housefly medium, but the females will not lay in it and need rotting flesh. Pulverized liver 

is a good but very smelly laying medium and can be washed away and replaced with a standard medium once maggots appear.

_*NecessaryNutrients *_

_*Ribobonucleic acid,*_ the poor cousin of DNA, but still with the double helix and the four nucleotide bases that 

we all know and love. Each combination of three of these four bases (you have forgotten them? thymine-adenine 

and guanine-cytosine) is called a DNA codone. So there are 60 possible combinations, but only twenty make the cut as amino acids and only eight of those are "essential" as described below. What is a great source of RNA? Baker's 

"active' yeast cells, the kind that you get inthose little foil packets and sprinkle on your ff medium. Once yeast 

begins to ferment, fed by ordinary sugar, it produces millions of living cells full of RNA, and the fly maggots eat 

the cells, RNA and all. But Orins' flies thrive because , though RNA is a valuable growth promoter, it is not irreplaceable and can be "spared" by a mixture of guanine, adenine and cytosine from other sources (i.e. I have no idea where, but they seem to find it). 

_*Amino acids*__._ Lots of them. Nutritionists talk about "essential amino acids". They are not the only amino acids that 

an animal requires; they are those that the animal cannot make (synthesize), in its own body. There are eight or 

ten essential amino acids for insects depending on who is keeping score. Happily, they are all found in several 

kinds of easily available foods, brewer's yeast and any kind of animal or vegetable (first or second class) protein, such as casein or soy. 

_*B complex vitamins*__. _Seven of them, but not vitaminB12. By a happy chance they are all found in brewer's yeast, though B12, essential for mammals, is probably not essential for insects, certainly not their growth. _*Fatty acids*_, unsaturated and saturated, may be of importance, in some insects. Lineolicacid is essential in man, and plays an active role in the pupation of some Lepidoptera, but seems to be of little importance in fly development. This is unfortunate for Katt and me who are awash in flax seed oil. 

_*Sterols*_, of which the best known in human dietetics is cholesterol, are vital for insects as an important 

component of cellular membranes, as precursors for many hormones (e.g.20-OH ecdysone, the Insect Sex 

Drug) and for regulating genes involved in developmental processes. That said, the vegetable sources of 

sterols do not include potatoes, our basic fly substrate. They are found in baker's yeast, though, another 

reason for using this fungus, and for Katt and me, in flax oil. (While preparing

this, I read a very short paper 

on phytosterols by Spence Behmer. He cited seven articles in his bib. list, all by Spence Behmer; obviously 

the go-to guy on this topic!) 

_*Fat soluble vitamins*_. A,E, K, are used by insects but really don't concern us here. Foranyone who would 

like to learn more about sterols and fat soluble vitamins as they apply to insects, I warmly recommend "Fat 

Metabolism in Insects" by Lilian E. Canavoso:  http://aedes.biosci....pers/ref161.pdf .It's rather 

long, but directed at a non-technical audience, very interesting (and free!). 

_*Minerals*_ Although sterile diets, in particular, use proprietary "salts" to provide minerals, I have no idea what 

they are, and larval growth seems to progress well with what ever traces are in the various food components. 

I realize that this is hugely long by our posting standards, but it is a huge and fascinating subject. All this stuff 

will be put to use when I do the next exciting post on rearing houseflies. All questions, disagreements and corrections are as welcome here as on any thread.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 11, 2010)

I got thru two, count them 2 sentences Phil and went blind



! I cannot read all that stuff, I am to old and afraid I will not live thru it!





ps, just cause u made a mistake, we should not have to suffer for it too


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 11, 2010)

P s s : can I change my poll


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 11, 2010)

O.K. It's time that someone outed you, Rebecca. To the best of my knowledge, folks, there is only one person who uses all of the nutrients mentioned in my discussion, and it isn't me. Yep it's "Wow, what a coincidence. How did I get that right, ha,ha" Hibiscusmile who is the only person that I know of who is using brewer's yeast and casein in her ff medium.

By a "pure coincidence" she sent me some brewer's yeast with a regular order, which I opened an hour ago. I'll add the yeast and some casein that I have ordered, set up cubes with a measured number of flies and the basic and "improved" mixes, count the number of flies that hatch, demonstrate (I'm pretty sure!) that the "improved" medium is better than the original, and _someone_ will say, "Haha! Who would have guessed?



"


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 11, 2010)

OH! That's gonna leave a mark!


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## Rick (Mar 13, 2010)

That's it? I was expecting a novel. You're letting me down Phil.


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## Katnapper (Mar 16, 2010)

Very interesting, Phil!




I'll have to read up, experiment more, and post the results of my ongoing and future attempts at housefly breeding later. I just haven't had time to even get on Mantidforum for 3 whole days!



I have sooo much to do it seems, and not enough time to get all of it done. Must go up and feed my mantids yet tonight (or should I say this morning) too. 4:30 a.m. getting up to go to the Labor Hall is going to be rough in a few hours.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 16, 2010)

Rick said:


> That's it? I was expecting a novel. You're letting me down Phil.


Just Chapter 1, Rick!


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 16, 2010)

Katnapper said:


> Very interesting, Phil!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My poor friend! Give me the number of your Hall and I'll make a call saying that I am from the IBNI (Illinois Board of Nasty Infections) and that Rebecca Heacox is a known carrier of Phyllocrania paradoxa and should be treated accordingly. When they say that they have no work, you can hurry home for a nice long lay in!


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## Katnapper (Mar 16, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> My poor friend! Give me the number of your Hall and I'll make a call saying that I am from the IBNI (Illinois Board of Nasty Infections) and that Rebecca Heacox is a known carrier of Phyllocrania paradoxa and should be treated accordingly. When they say that they have no work, you can hurry home for a nice long lay in!


Lol...



But so far there has been no work yet for me... and I'm just still always running behind on everything it seems. But at least I'm more ambitious lately than in the recent past. Just so much catching up to do.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 16, 2010)

haha, wouldn't that be funny! It sounds like a terrible disease, by the time she gets home and throws herself on the couch



and wakes up, the center for disease c will have roped off her house and police tape will be posistioned so she cannot get out, then she will have to run upstairs and stick all the ghost little feet in an ink pad and start stamping her arms and face!


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## Katnapper (Mar 16, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> haha, wouldn't that be funny! It sounds like a terrible disease, by the time she gets home and throws herself on the couch
> 
> 
> 
> and wakes up, the center for disease c will have roped off her house and police tape will be posistioned so she cannot get out, then she will have to run upstairs and stick all the ghost little feet in an ink pad and start stamping her arms and face!









!!!


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## MantidLord (Apr 1, 2010)

How did I miss this? I'm waiting for chapter two!  

P.S. It could be the medication talking, but I thought that RNA is single stranded and doesn't have thymine, but uracil.


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 19, 2010)

First, Mantidlord, I'm sorry that I didn't answer yr question about uracil and thymine in RNA. Yes, of course you are right. Start codones for amino acids (in eukaryotes, anyway) such as methionine are ATG for DNA and AUG for RNA. If I said or implied otherwise, I was wrong.

Secondly. I was guilty of woolly thinking when I said that I would count the number of flies produced by the basic (control) dog food formula and that produced by the "improved" formula. In fact, the larvae in the improved formula (equal volume of food to the control and exposed to the same number of adult flies for the same time) eclosed five days earlier than those in the control batch and there were 1990 as opposed to 1523 in the control group. All of which, alas, proves nothing. I

Some time ago, I talked about "biomass" in the context of why so many baby mantids kick the bucket before reaching adulthood. Once they start eating standard fare, say flies or bees, the weight (not number) of the available prey critters in their environmen will be a limiting factor on the weight (not number!) of the mantis population that depends on them. In nature, there seems seldom to be an overabundance of prey critters, which is why a mantis can go for days without feeding (and the fact that they will remain in the same spot instead of moving on suggests that at one time, they lived in an environment with many more prey insects). The weight of both prey and predators is called the biomass. As the mantids grow, the same number will weigh more, and if they are using up the entire prey biomass (give or take a fly or three) some mantids will have to die so that the rest can live and grow, rather like those painful lifeboat scenes in old movies.

Back at the houseflies, my guess is that there was a larger number of larvae in the "improved" formula, that they exhausted the edible part of the food ahead of the control and pupated early, producing more, but possibly smaller flies than those in the control group. In fact, I did notice some smaller flies in the "improved group, probably the last to hatch. Thus I invalidated the result by limiting the food biomass and by comparing numbers of flies instead of dry weights.

As a result of this rather obvious realization, I removed a maggot laden pot from a fly cube and shall transfer it into three pots of fresh medium. Yum.

I have always told students to have a friend read their papers before turning them in, and after such an obvious error (or two?) I shall take my own advice and Email my next thing, "More than You Ever Wanted to Know about Raising Fruit Flies" to my good friend Superfreak who is well equipped to critique this sort of material (we discovered that she took fly lab at uni and I worked in the lab where I took the BS. Awww!).

Chuck seems to have gone out of the HF pupae business at Spiderpharm, so I am really pleased that I am now able to feed my nymphs -- I shall be getting both gongies and B.mendica in the near future -- without having to go on a fly hunt and am saving myself uncertainty and money.

Has anyone tried this method yet?


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 23, 2010)

I want to do a thing on fruit fly larval nutrition that is different both from the general insect nutrition post above and the one on raising houseflies. It's gonna be long by forum standards, so I'll probably divide it into three posts, one on yeast and its importance to ff larvae, one on all the other things needed (or not) in a ff medium and one on a formula using home-made apparatus that would make Willy Wonka proud. One university ff lab director says that the original version of this formula is ten times more productive than his standard one, so we (I) should have some fun with that. I'll probably do part one on Monday. Meanwhile, here are some relevant questions to reflect on over a drink or two.

When ffs lay eggs on a rotting banana, what do the larvae feed on?

Why does a silk worm need to feed for about 42 days before pupating and a ff larva, only 5? (Hint, relative size is not a factor).

Does vinegar do more harm or good in a ff culture?

Is there an"ideal" ff medium? If not, why not? If so, why aren't you using it?

Why do bakers and brewers eat different kinds of yeast?

I saw a reference on another board to "the Paraben controversy". What's that all about (I truly don't know!)?

Yeast in a culture in a 32oz pot can kill adult fruit flies in under half an hour (I timed it yesterday), so why use it?

Why not just buy a commercial ff mix and be done (hard question!)?

This is a forum post like any other, so feel free to fire away!


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## MantidLord (Apr 24, 2010)

What you said about biomass was very interesting. It would make since that nymphs would have to die in order for more fit siblings to survive. But what about the question of cannibalism? For those nymphs to simply die, wouldn't it be more efficient for those nymphs to simply become prey for stronger ones, rather than die off? Also, when combining the weight of prey and predator, do you also include any organism that may prey upon a mantis? Not to mention, as the mantis grows, so too does its prey (in a general sense of growth and new prey items). So there must be another factor (whether in the topic of biomass or not) that leads to the mass dying off of nymphs. Especially considering that these "die offs" don't occur in all species. T. sinensis is famous for having about 80% of its hatchlings die, while I. oratoria (a species sharing some of the same environment) has a higher success rate for its nymphs.


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 25, 2010)

MantidLord said:


> What you said about biomass was very interesting. It would make since that nymphs would have to die in order for more fit siblings to survive. But what about the question of cannibalism? For those nymphs to simply die, wouldn't it be more efficient for those nymphs to simply become prey for stronger ones, rather than die off? Also, when combining the weight of prey and predator, do you also include any organism that may prey upon a mantis? Not to mention, as the mantis grows, so too does its prey (in a general sense of growth and new prey items). So there must be another factor (whether in the topic of biomass or not) that leads to the mass dying off of nymphs. Especially considering that these "die offs" don't occur in all species. T. sinensis is famous for having about 80% of its hatchlings die, while I. oratoria (a species sharing some of the same environment) has a higher success rate for its nymphs.


Good questions. First, I think that the death rate among newly hatched nymphs in captivity is higher than in the wild. There, the nymphs quickly separate and start their solitary lives, usually remaining quite still when awaiting prey. In a net cube, they are constantly on the move, colliding with and running away from siblings causing, IMO, a lethal level of stress. On the other hand, if a lot didn't die young in the wild or our gardens, we would soon be over run by them.

As you know, many of the young die within a few days. Newborn nymphs tend not to eat each other until the first molt, after about a week, when molting nymphs are often attacked by their fellows. Even if the fittest nymphs ate two siblings a day, they couldn't achieve the existing death rate, and to kill a same-size peer requires more energy than to eat a few fruit flies. Also, your idea of "efficiency" is taken from the viewpoint of the mantids. In fact, the baby corpses will provide needed food for scavengers, such as ants or microbes. In the latter case, it will form part of the organic detritus that nourishes the autotrophic (deriving energy from sunlight) plants/providers.

It is customary to show a terrestrial biomass as a pyramid with plants , primary providers, as the huge base tapering up through herbivores,--primary users--to the most dominant predator. Energy is used up in the transition from one stage to the next, so that a large mass of "primary provider" is needed to produce one top predator. Do remember, though the pyramid model either of biomass or energy does not foster the idea, that although most of the energy is spent, a lot is recycled, in the form of corpses and feces, to nourish the primary provider.

Normally, I use the biomass model in a limited way, such as in the discussion of raising houseflies. For a newly hatched mantis ooth(s), the primary provider is the plants in the area to which it has access. Imagine that the offspring of an I.oratorio ooth and those from a Tenodera sinensis ooth each had access to the same sized (but different, so that they were not competing) biomass. The Chinese ooth will not only likely produce more offspring than the Mediterranean, but the adults will be substantially larger and need more prey.

One way that animals can "cheat" on the available biomass is by specialization within a species. Obviously, young nymphs will be eating prey not suitable for older nymphs and adults and _vice versa, _and the staggering of ooth hatching means that while some nymphs are eating fruit flies and mosquitoes, older nymphs in the same area are taking larger prey. In mantids, this can extend into adult sexual dimorphism, with the male often eating smaller prey than the female.

I don't know whether or not this addresses all of your questions, but it is an interesting and fruitful topic.


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## MantidLord (Apr 26, 2010)

Thanks a lot Phil! That did answer my questions, and yes this is very fruitful topic indeed. So, say one was to simulate a mantis ecosystem for some "generic" mantis (T. sinensis); what would be all that would be needed to include to make it more realistic? I would imagine including (obviously) a plant that that species is found on, prey that it would feed upon (preferably plant eaters such as aphids?), and predators that would feed upon the mantid nymphs (jumping spiders, ladybugs, etc.). But besides that, what about regarding microscopic level? Would any special attention be necessary for maintaining the ecosystem for the nymphs' life span? Or are there other factors I'm missing?

Also, say the subject were T. sinensis, with its large hatch rate. How would someone determine the amount of prey and predator (and mantids for that matter) in a given area? And anticipating the large die offs of T. sinensis, what would be the best way in determining the amount of predators so the mantids aren't all devoured?


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## PhilinYuma (May 2, 2010)

MantidLord said:


> Thanks a lot Phil! That did answer my questions, and yes this is very fruitful topic indeed. So, say one was to simulate a mantis ecosystem for some "generic" mantis (T. sinensis); what would be all that would be needed to include to make it more realistic? I would imagine including (obviously) a plant that that species is found on, prey that it would feed upon (preferably plant eaters such as aphids?), and predators that would feed upon the mantid nymphs (jumping spiders, ladybugs, etc.). But besides that, what about regarding microscopic level? Would any special attention be necessary for maintaining the ecosystem for the nymphs' life span? Or are there other factors I'm missing?
> 
> Also, say the subject were T. sinensis, with its large hatch rate. How would someone determine the amount of prey and predator (and mantids for that matter) in a given area? And anticipating the large die offs of T. sinensis, what would be the best way in determining the amount of predators so the mantids aren't all devoured?


Sorry for the delay in answering, Mantidlord (I got some great new material on the Indian Mountain Artillery in the Second Afghan War. Love those screw guns!). This is a topic on which I have spent a lot of thought since I was keeping tropical fish in large tanks, and I have had no reason in the intervening decades to change my mind.

The most "natural" environment that I have seen for a single orchid mantis was presented in a fascinating series of posts by member Tony from Holland on a vivarium which was pretty much self supporting. It used soil bacteria, fungi and tiny animals like springtails, as I remember, to keep the micro flora and fauna in balance. Perhaps you say the posts?

I have to say that I am probably enthralled by enclosures, such as a well designed, carefully lit vivarium or planted aquarium more than most, perhaps because they are reminiscent of the really good trips (and by "trip" I mean the psychedelic experience consequent on the ingestion of illicit hallucinogens) of my youth. For whatever reason, I recommend them highly for their own sake, but I do not think that they are the best way to raise mantids, nor do I think that they resemble the mantids' natural environment in any meaningful way.

I have no doubt that the professional lab set ups, with their emphasis on simplicity, cleanliness and readily controlled food, temperature and humidity, provide the best environment for raising the little critters, and they have the added advantage of never being mistaken for a natural environment.

One of the hallmarks of an ecosystem is change. Where that change is severely limited, as on a small island, the system tends to be stultified. You mention spiders as predators of young mantids. I don't know about jumping spiders, but early-instar nymphs are particularly vulnerable to small web spinners, but as they grow, the nymphs turn the tables on the spiders who are forced to "flee the area". This example, one of many, is given in two excellent articles/chapters on mantis ecology in the Prete book. If you don't have it, I have two pieces of good new. First, now that it is eleven years old, the price has dropped to around $20 on Ebay (thanks again, Mike) and only slightly more on Amazon. Still too expensive? Google "Ecology of Praying Mantids" Hurd and "The ecology and Foraging strategy of Tenodora angustipennis" Matsura . The Prete book has become a Google book, but it is most easily accessed by chapter headings and you can read them for free! You will find these very interesting. T. matsura is my mantis ecology hero, and if you P.M. me after reading his chapter, I can give you refs to articles specifically on mantis predation in a given environment.

Good luck and Good reading!

BTW, the 7pounder (standard field gun at the time was a 9 pounder), jointed, rifled, muzzle loading, black-powder "screw gun', so called because the breech and barrel (and just about everything else, come to that) were carried separately and screwed together with a trunnion hoop, was deployed in the 1880s in Afghanistan in much the same terrain as that used by American combat troops today. It weighed 400lbs and needed another 400lbs of "extras" like ammunition, and was carried on mules, but on arrival, everything was offloaded, the barrel and breech screwed together, wheels mounted, gun loaded and set up for the first shot in under one minute!


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