# Pure Amazing!!



## minomantis (Aug 21, 2012)

*Ok so I put my female T. sinensis on the rose bush today and watched her for about a little more then an hour (I have no life during the summer, don't judge) lol But as I was watching her, the following happened. I put her on the rose bush and it took her a coulple of minutes to find a place to be comfortable and that she liked. She picked a place right above a rather large funnel web spiders web. About 20 minutes later, a fly I guess was moving too fast and got caught up in the web struggled and the spider flew out snatched it up and took it back. My mantis actually tried to strike at the spider but it happened soo quickly that she missed her opportunity. Now about 10 minutes of processing (I have no idea what was going on in her mind) she used one of her forelegs to toggle with the web. It seemed very deliberate! But the spider came out to the spot where she was messing with the web and BAM got the spider! This literally BLEW my mind! This is a higher level of thinking and it was truly impressive to watch. I knew mantids were smart but not that smart!  woooow!!*


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## brancsikia339 (Aug 21, 2012)

Impressive! Mantids do have some intellectual qualities. You'd be surprised


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## hierodula (Aug 21, 2012)

Lol thats awesome. Its interesting to see how animals learn. Humans only use about 8-12% of their brains. I wonder how much a mantis uses.


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## Mvalenz (Aug 21, 2012)

That is frickin awesome!! I wish I could of seen that.


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## sueb4653 (Aug 21, 2012)

+1 SAME HERE WOULD HAVE BEEN COOL TO SEE


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## sinensispsyched (Aug 21, 2012)

WOW! THIS WILL BLOW SCIENTISTS' MINDS!


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## fleurdejoo (Aug 21, 2012)

Coolio!


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## happy1892 (Aug 21, 2012)

I do not think he did it on on purpose but maybe. Maybe he still was focused on the spider (they do not usually focus that long!) and wanted to get closer to find it and so it looked like he did it on purpose.



hierodula said:


> Lol thats awesome. Its interesting to see how animals learn. Humans only use about 8-12% of their brains. I wonder how much a mantis uses.


I doubt that is true. I guess it depends a lot on whole lot of things, like if you are blank you are barley using your brain and when you are playing just chess hard you are using your left brain mostly (maybe only, the right side is just about a sleep when pros play chess) while when a person plays ba-duk I have read that both sides of the brain are going full blast so I guess it is what you are doing.


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## Rick (Aug 21, 2012)

Most likely a neat coincidence. You would have to see it done many times in order to prove it was on purpose. Interesting to think it could have been.


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## Mime454 (Aug 21, 2012)

hierodula said:


> Lol thats awesome. Its interesting to see how animals learn. Humans only use about 8-12% of their brains. I wonder how much a mantis uses.


This statistic is just some made up nonsense that has entered popular culture. Human brains require an incredible amount of resources, and Evolution wouldn't have selected for them if they weren't going to be used.


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## aNisip (Aug 21, 2012)

happy1892 said:


> I do not think he did it on on purpose but maybe. Maybe he still was focused on the spider (they do not usually focus that long!) and wanted to get closer to find it and so it looked like he did it on purpose.


I agree, it probably saw the spider, went "looking" for it, got closer to the web and accidentally put her leg in the web and whilst trying to free the leg, attracted spidy, then wham! nice spidy snack...

Like Rick said 'neat coincidence'....


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## happy1892 (Aug 22, 2012)

AndrewNisip said:


> I agree, it probably saw the spider, went "looking" for it, got closer to the web and accidentally put her leg in the web and whilst trying to free the leg, attracted spidy, then wham! nice spidy snack...
> 
> Like Rick said 'neat coincidence'....


He did not say the mantis tried to free his leg. Or maybe I did not read that. I often miss lines or read the line again.


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## hierodula (Aug 22, 2012)

Mime454 said:


> This statistic is just some made up nonsense that has entered popular culture. Human brains require an incredible amount of resources, and Evolution wouldn't have selected for them if they weren't going to be used.


Ya ur right I think, that was just a stat floating in my head from a documentary from when I was little I think, but still, one has to admit that the amount of calculation that goes into a mantis' strike is crazy!!


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## Mime454 (Aug 23, 2012)

hierodula said:


> Ya ur right I think, that was just a stat floating in my head from a documentary from when I was little I think, but still, one has to admit that the amount of calculation that goes into a mantis' strike is crazy!!


He's definitely, but also think about the calculations involved in catching a ball. We don't even think about hyperbolic arcs or anything like that, the mind just does it. It is so amazing.


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## Mvalenz (Aug 23, 2012)

Well there is only one way to find out if it was deliberate. Have any more funnel spiders in your yard? But be careful it can turn ugly for your mantis.


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## gs304 (Aug 23, 2012)

Planning is an ability developed by a few birds and mammals species. When it appears among these animals, it is generally very poor. Insects definitely can't plan. Their "brain" is very simple, too simple to predict the results of what they are doing.

It must have been an accident.


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## Mime454 (Aug 23, 2012)

Greg said:


> Planning is an ability developed by a few birds and mammals species. When it appears among these animals, it is generally very poor. Insects definitely can't plan. Their "brain" is very simple, too simple to predict the results of what they are doing.
> 
> It must have been an accident.


It could be programmed by the genes. It's not as if bees are intellectually figuring out that hexagons are the best shape for their homes. An Antlion isn't calculating acceleration due to gravity when it builds it's trap. The same could be said for spiders, viruses, and to some degree humans.

I'm not saying that this wasn't a coincidence, but I'm also not saying that it's impossible to have such an impressive programmed behavior.


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## gs304 (Aug 23, 2012)

Mime454 said:


> It could be programmed by the genes. It's not as if bees are intellectually figuring out that hexagons are the best shape for their homes. An Antlion isn't calculating acceleration due to gravity when it builds it's trap. The same could be said for spiders, viruses, and to some degree humans.
> 
> I'm not saying that this wasn't a coincidence, but I'm also not saying that it's impossible to have such an impressive programmed behavior.


I see what you mean, but your examples are different from what happened to this mantis. These are actions programmed in genes, that's true, but they don't need any analysing. It's just instinct and something automatic. Bees don't think why they build hexagons, It's just how they do It.

That mantis just can't have been aware of the fact, that spider reacts for vibrations, that she can cause them and that spider will appear on the web after she moves it. Too complicated.

That's how I see it:

After attack the mantis was just standing where she was. Then she decided to move and checked the surface where she was going to step as the mantises normally do - by touching it with her tarsus. The spiderwas alarmed by vibrations, he came and she caught him.


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## Mime454 (Aug 23, 2012)

I think that you're looking at the wrong way. Mantids could have been selected to play in or be curious of funnel webs because there was a spider in it, increasing their caloric intake and fitness.

I don't think that a mantis possesses the kind of higher level thought that it would take to realize why he was messing with the web, it think it's the same sort of thing as the ant lion.

I'm just arguing that it's not impossible for this to be a programmed response. I'm not arguing that this isn't a coincidence, or that other mantids should be observed doing this, but I think it might be interesting for further study.


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## hierodula (Aug 23, 2012)

I agree with mime. Due to the size of their brain, mantids couldn't possibly know about the further results/complications of any action. For example, when a mantis launches itself off a branch, it doesn't think about the fact that it could get hit by a twig, or snatched in the air. It just wants to move, and as with most animals with limited thinking capabilities, it is primarily ruled by instinct.


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## gs304 (Aug 24, 2012)

*Mime*, if mantids were selected to search for spider webs, it would be somehow described, that mantids are specialized spider-killers, who find the web, touch it and catch the spider. Just like those little wasps that look for spider to paralyse it and lay eggs inside it's body. What's more, if it was a programmed response, it would be very common among this species, cause such a useful genetic information would spread incredibly fast.

*Hierodula*, exactly!


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## Mime454 (Aug 24, 2012)

Greg said:


> *Mime*, if mantids were selected to search for spider webs, it would be somehow described, that mantids are specialized spider-killers, who find the web, touch it and catch the spider. Just like those little wasps that look for spider to paralyse it and lay eggs inside it's body. What's more, if it was a programmed response, it would be very common among this species, cause such a useful genetic information would spread incredibly fast.
> 
> *Hierodula*, exactly!


I'm just trying to put the case out there that a mantis could do this with a simple programmed response without precognitive thought. I did some Googling and didn't find any studies on this, but I really could see this being a programmed behavior. It would be so useful, so useful in fact that I would like to study (in college for Ethology now) why the necessary genetic mutations haven't arrived to make this a ubiquitous behavior. It might even be, because most of the heavily funded studies(I'm only going by what I've read in "The Praying Mantids" and online searches of peer-reviewed journals) have been made by organizations that are culturing mantids, rather than field studies. I don't know many people who culture their mantids with grass spiders.

Do I think that this is a coincidence? Probably so. But I'm interested enough to try to study it. I'm going to go get some Chinese ooths from the garden store, because I don't want to risk my expensive mantids on such a study.

Thanks OP.


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## happy1892 (Aug 24, 2012)

Greg said:


> *Mime*, if mantids were selected to search for spider webs, it would be somehow described, that mantids are specialized spider-killers, who find the web, touch it and catch the spider. Just like those little wasps that look for spider to paralyse it and lay eggs inside it's body. What's more, if it was a programmed response, it would be very common among this species, cause such a useful genetic information would spread incredibly fast.
> 
> *Hierodula*, exactly!


He meant this one (One!) might be different in that way. I guess that is almost certainly not true. Could a person with a smaller brain than person 1 and every thing was the same (age, conditions (what happened) Do you guys know what I mean? The only difference between them is their brain.). Could the one with the smaller brain function better than person 1 when everything is the same except the brain at that time? Is there anyway it could?


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## gs304 (Aug 24, 2012)

happy1892 said:


> He meant this one (One!) might be different in that way. I guess that is almost certainly not true. Could a person with a smaller brain than person 1 and every thing was the same (age, conditions (what happened) Do you guys know what I mean? The only difference between them is their brain.). Could the one with the smaller brain function better than person 1 when everything is the same except the brain at that time? Is there anyway it could?


Oh, sorry. I misunderstood it.

For me both theories: mantis-genius-spider-slayer and mantis-species-super-ability are improbable, but who knows... I did not carry out any research, so I can't disprove it.


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## happy1892 (Aug 24, 2012)

Greg said:


> Oh, sorry. I misunderstood it.
> 
> For me both theories: mantis-genius-spider-slayer and mantis-species-super-ability are improbable, but who knows... I did not carry out any research, so I can't disprove it.


Darn, I cannot explain! Well, it is not important.


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## fleurdejoo (Aug 24, 2012)

Check out the big brain on Mime!!!


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## happy1892 (Aug 24, 2012)

fleurdejoo said:


> Check out the big brain on Mime!!!


His avatar?


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## Mime454 (Aug 24, 2012)

Greg said:


> Oh, sorry. I misunderstood it.
> 
> For me both theories: mantis-genius-spider-slayer and mantis-species-super-ability are improbable, but who knows... I did not carry out any research, so I can't disprove it.


This would hardly be the most impressive behavior in a predator. Fireflies use flashing symbols to call males to them. But fireflies of one species can fake the calls of another to trick the males and eat them.

To me, this seems more ingenius than a mantis probing a spider's web. If this were not documented, and OP came into the forum saying that he witnessed a female firefly of species x mimic the call of species y and eat the males come to her instead of trying to copulate what would any of you say? If we don't look at this as a genetically preprogrammed response, we would have to postulate not only that female's not only have a memory of the calls of other species, but that they actually have to know what the calls do and how males of another species will react! Impossible! It must be a coincidence!

I've got lots of these, each as extraordinary as the next. To find something pretty damn intuitive in a creature as simple as an insect shouldn't really give us much pause when we consider that Evolution has had millions of years to program behaviors of growing complexity and efficiency.

Is this a common mantis behavior? Once again, I don't know, but it would hardly be the most sophisticated behavior known in an outwardly "simplistic" creature.


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