# Am I doing something wrong?



## Graceface (Dec 16, 2018)

My adult female Orchid, Heidi, is dead. It happened so fast, I honestly just don't know what is going wrong.

Yesterday, she was totally fine; climbing around her enclosure looking hungry at feeding time. I fed her, as I normally would. She happily ate around 8 blue bottles and was hanging from the lid of her enclosure after her meal. Last night, in one of the many times I looked in on her, she was pumping her abdomen. I assumed she was calling (because she is 3 weeks mature) and got excited. Well, an hour later she was dangling from the lid by 2 of her feet. In the process of getting her enclosure out to check on her, she fell to the floor and made no attempt to get up. I fed her water and honey powder/bee pollen and she drank a bit but didn't move. She wouldn't drink anything else or respond to stimulus and this morning she is dead. Her decline was so rapid, she was normal at noon when she ate and by 8pm she was dying and there was nothing I could do

I really don't get it. I don't have any idea what went wrong or how to improve. My male orchids are totally fine, my nymphs are fine, but this is the 2nd adult female I've lost unexpectedly and unexplained. What could possibly be causing this? She was completely fine and then died within 12 hrs. I will break down the care I give them and maybe someone can tell me if I'm doing something glaringly wrong. 

I keep all my orchids in plastic cups with paper towels as substrate. The adult females are in modified  64oz Tupperware containers. The enclosures are kept in 10 gal aquariums with reptile fogger and heat mats. Heat is set to around 85 for my females, and RH is set to 70 with a 7% window of differential, RH typically stays in the mid 70s. The foggers are filled with distilled water. I mist daily with distilled water and change substrate every other day. They eat solely Blue Bottle flies, which I source from Mantids Galore. I feed my adult females every other day, and they usually eat 8 or 10 flies. If they don't eat some of the flies, I remove them. 

Letty declined in a similar fashion, albeit a little slower. She was fine, eating normally, had a meal and died within 12 hrs. Granted, Letty had mismolted and was eating less than Heidi, but she was eating and moving and acting fine then died suddenly after a meal. They were around the same age (3 weeks mature). I'm sourcing clean flies from a reputable place, could it be the flies? Is the humidity too high/not high enough? Coincidence?

Idk, I feel I'm grasping at straws. I have no idea what happened to Heidi. Is it something I'm doing? Any help would be appreciated. I don't want to see any more dead orchids


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## hysteresis (Dec 16, 2018)

This is tragic! Not even a hint as to why or how!

I'm so sorry you lost her! And *perfectly healthy*!


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## Graceface (Dec 16, 2018)

Something _*HAD*_ to have been wrong for her to die, right? She was showing zero signs of issue or illness. She was very active yesterday am, and was pressing against the side of her enclosure looking greedily at the one fly left in her sister's enclosure. She was hungry and ate immediately. Then bam, dangling from the lid and dying. 

It couldn't have been 'stale air' as I get in her enclosure daily. Could she have eaten too much? I thought adults wouldn't overeat, and I never considered it as a problem since they usually will ignore the flies they don't want and I can remove them and save them for later feedings. 

Idk. I've yet to get an adult female to live more than 3 or 4 weeks. Ingrid mismolted and died in the first 48hrs, Letty died unexpectedly, and now Heidi. I sincerely do not understand what is wrong, or if something even is wrong and I just have had rotten luck.


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## hysteresis (Dec 16, 2018)

I don't know the first thing about keeping orchids. I will really need to have a serious talk with myself if one of our breeders gets orchids, because it sounds very challenging.

How FRUSTRATING for you!


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## MantisGirl13 (Dec 16, 2018)

Oh no! I am so sorry, this is so sad! What did she eat last? What temps has she been kept in? How humid has she been kept? How much ventilation does her enclosure have? Are there any signs of mold or fungus in her enclosure? 

- MantisGirl13


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## Graceface (Dec 16, 2018)

MantisGirl13 said:


> Oh no! I am so sorry, this is so sad! What did she eat last? What temps has she been kept in? How humid has she been kept? How much ventilation does her enclosure have? Are there any signs of mold or fungus in her enclosure?
> 
> - MantisGirl13


Care parameters and feeding are listed above. I haven't seen any signs of mold anywhere. The lid of the enclosure is plastic canvas mesh, I'll get a picture of the enclosure for you guys to see. 

The suddenness is the most disturbing part, she was seemingly normal at noonish when I fed her and by 9pm she was too far gone to do anything to help her. 

Wouldn't an illness have shown a slower decay rate?


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## Graceface (Dec 16, 2018)

hysteresis said:


> I don't know the first thing about keeping orchids. I will really need to have a serious talk with myself if one of our breeders gets orchids, because it sounds very challenging.
> 
> How FRUSTRATING for you!


In general, I haven't found keeping Orchids too difficult until this issue. My males are fine; I haven't lost a single one to an illness or injury and I've had 7 make it to adult so far. My females haven't been as lucky and I just don't get whether I'm doing something wrong or just experiencing bad luck


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## cwebster (Dec 16, 2018)

Am sorry to hear of your orchid mantis losses.


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## Graceface (Dec 16, 2018)

Here are the enclosures. The right is the old enclosure, the left is the one I just upgraded for Jane. Jane is the mantis in the foreground. I took out the bug ladders and glued the bug ladders on the wall of the enclosure. I also added more plastic canvas to the lid





Here is Jane in the new enclosure


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## hysteresis (Dec 16, 2018)

@Graceface LoL.

I just did that for Hope's enclosure.

Same type of bin, except I used plastic mesh.


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## Graceface (Dec 16, 2018)

hysteresis said:


> @Graceface LoL.
> 
> I just did that for Hope's enclosure.
> 
> Same type of bin, except I used plastic mesh.


Funny! Great minds think alike, eh? 

I just tried to eliminate any component I felt could be a problem. The diagonal bug ladders needed support as they didn't have enough rigidity to hold the mantid's weight, so I took them out to be safe. I also lowered the humidity to 60%. 

My husband thinks I over fed her, I don't agree. 

Since I have no idea what went wrong I don't know what to fix. I don't want to lose Jane, too


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## hysteresis (Dec 16, 2018)

Im torturing myself wondering about Hope too. After arriving injured, while weakened, she was all over her enclosure. I was so wanting them to eat, it didnt occur to me that goldens eat _immediately _upon presenting prey, if they want it. If I'd just left her alone, would she have hooked in more solidly?

But, I'm a novice, and you're breeding.

Don't second guess yourself.


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## Graceface (Dec 17, 2018)

hysteresis said:


> Im torturing myself wondering about Hope too. After arriving injured, while weakened, she was all over her enclosure. I was so wanting them to eat, it didnt occur to me that goldens eat _immediately _upon presenting prey, if they want it. If I'd just left her alone, would she have hooked in more solidly?
> 
> But, I'm a novice, and you're breeding.
> 
> Don't second guess yourself.


Well, I'm not breeding yet. Gotta get an adult female to stay alive long enough to reach maturity first. My poor males are so so ready to mate, but I hope they can hold out for Jane. Heck, now I just hope I can get Jane to live to see mating. She is fine currently, but so was Heidi  

It's hard not to second guess yourself, when you're fretting over a sick mantis. I'm still sending positive vibes to Hope


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## hysteresis (Dec 17, 2018)

Eating like a champ. TY.  

You'll be successful with Jane.


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## Mantis Lady (Dec 17, 2018)

Sorry for your loss.  I have no experience with orchids. i don't know what happend with your poor girl.

I hope Jane will doing fine and can mate with one of your males.


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## MantisGirl13 (Dec 17, 2018)

Graceface said:


> Care parameters and feeding are listed above. I haven't seen any signs of mold anywhere. The lid of the enclosure is plastic canvas mesh, I'll get a picture of the enclosure for you guys to see.
> 
> The suddenness is the most disturbing part, she was seemingly normal at noonish when I fed her and by 9pm she was too far gone to do anything to help her.
> 
> Wouldn't an illness have shown a slower decay rate?


Oops, sorry, I just skimmed the first post and missed that part! Illnesses, from what I have seen, usually come on pretty fast, bet there are at least some signs of what is happening. Maybe something went wrong on her molt to adult and just started to affect her now?

- MantisGirl13


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## hysteresis (Dec 17, 2018)

This is a nerve wracking hobby.


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## Mantis Lady (Dec 17, 2018)

hysteresis said:


> This is a nerve wracking hobby.


yes, I have to agree on that. you feel so hopeless when one gets sick,  but you can't do much. (this is how i feel about Cleo)

On the other side when it goes well, they give a lot of fun.


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## Graceface (Dec 17, 2018)

MantisGirl13 said:


> Oops, sorry, I just skimmed the first post and missed that part! Illnesses, from what I have seen, usually come on pretty fast, bet there are at least some signs of what is happening. Maybe something went wrong on her molt to adult and just started to affect her now?
> 
> - MantisGirl13


Thanks for the reply, @MantisGirl13 I wrote a frickin novel, lol. It's understandable to miss a detail

It's possible Heidi had unknown complications from her molt, I spose. Idk what else to say for what happened. She molted to adult 11/20, so she was about 3 1/2 weeks mature.

Maybe she got sick, if illness sets in rapidly. I wonder what would've made her sick, though. There are only a few factors in her care, so it had to be one of those.

I use distilled water to avoid introducing bacteria and mold, maybe there is something growing inside my humidifier? If so, that would fog it into the air she breathes. I clean the water tank and use distilled water in it, too, though. None of my other orchid mantises are having issues and I have 3 foggers going on 3 different orchid enclosure tanks. 

Could she have overeaten? I've fed her more than flies than that before and she was fine. Can freshly hatched blue bottle flies make a mantis sick somehow? 

I changed any potential contaminant source (ie the ramps) in the enclosure, just to be safe (pictured and described above) 

Maybe I've just had rotten luck with my females so far. Jane is doing okay, my males are fine (a bit stir crazy and ready to mate tho), and my nymphs are fine too. I have had no issues with my orchids until this



Little Mantis said:


> yes, I have to agree on that. you feel so hopeless when one gets sick,  but you can't do much. (this is how i feel about Cleo)
> 
> On the other side when it goes well, they give a lot of fun.


So true. We have to cherish the good times to get us through the tough times  Just love those mantids extra while you can


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## MantisGirl13 (Dec 18, 2018)

Overeating is not a problem (Usually) for adult females. I guess we will never know what happened! I am sorry for your loss.

- MantisGirl13


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## hysteresis (Dec 18, 2018)

I just received Orin's latest mantis book. Nice hardcover FULL of facts.

I just read that mantids drop dead if kept in high humidity with poor air circulation. Their respiratory system is passive, and needs time to react. By the time you've hit them with too much humidity and poor air, even if you take them out, the system doesn't correct very quickly. It will eventually if the bug is still alive.

Coincidentally, that lag is an example of hysteresis in a system.  

I will leave my enclosures to air. I can mist the goldens and rhombos two or theee times daily as required.

Thanks Mr. McMonigle. I will make good use of this book, and the information contained within.


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## Graceface (Dec 18, 2018)

hysteresis said:


> I just received Orin's latest mantis book. Nice hardcover FULL of facts.
> 
> I just read that mantids drop dead if kept in high humidity with poor air circulation. Their respiratory system is passive, and needs time to react. By the time you've hit them with too much humidity and poor air, even if you take them out, the system doesn't correct very quickly. It will eventually if the bug is still alive.
> 
> ...


I have that book, too! It's great 

I feel ya about the humidity. I worried about stale air when I started keeping Orchids. I have a lid covering 85% of the aquarium so that it vents, and an ultrasonic humidifier/reptile fogger on a controller that keeps the humidity within the programmed range. It kicks on every 5 to 10minutes. I also have large vents on the enclosures so the air in the tank circulates in the enclosures, and I access the enclosures daily to vent the microclimate. Perhaps it isn't enough air, but also I have other mantids in the same aquarium doing just fine, and 2 other tanks with the same set up with no issues, so I'm inclined to say that wasn't the problem for Heidi. 

For now I'm chalking my loss of Heidi up to my awful, Charlie Brown luck. Good grief 

Thanks to all for the support, well wishes and condolences


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## hysteresis (Dec 18, 2018)

Radical changeup of my enclosures tonight. All three species. Problem is two of my species are still eating hydei and they get out through the screen.

We're running cool mist humidifiers so our ambient RH is low 40s.

I found it shocking that misting should dry up within 30 minutes. All my species have been soaking for days!


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## Graceface (Dec 18, 2018)

hysteresis said:


> Radical changeup of my enclosures tonight. All three species. Problem is two of my species are still eating hydei and they get out through the screen.
> 
> We're running cool mist humidifiers so our ambient RH is low 40s.
> 
> I found it shocking that misting should dry up within 30 minutes. All my species have been soaking for days!


We keep our small mantids in clear drink cups or portion cups. I cut a hole out of the lid and hot glued in some fine mesh fabric as a vent. The mesh is fine enough that the FF can't escape, and we still get ventilation. Below is a drink cup lid I modified. 

 



Can you modify your lids to use a fine mesh? Or add a layer of fine mesh?


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## hysteresis (Dec 18, 2018)

@Graceface

I orginally window meshed these small jars, then stuffed an untreated cotton pad as shown, under the lid. One in the bottom as a substrate.

My initial worry was that at molt, as they push out, the fiber might give a bit not allowing them to release themselves. 

It held all the moisture in. Maybe ill throw 1 ply of TP under the mesh to hold the FF until I find something more suitable.

I'll keep on with these pads as nymph substrate tho. Excellent. 

I have coco fiber as well (for the older goldens) but dubias....


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## Mantis Lady (Dec 19, 2018)

That is what i do with the lids of my cups too


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## Graceface (Dec 19, 2018)

Little Mantis said:


> That is what i do with the lids of my cups too


Nice! It works well. Once they get past the Hydeii phase, I use a square of tulle between the cup and lid as an extra molting surface, which they seem to prefer. The holes on the tulle are sometimes too big for the smaller Hydeii and they climb through. 

Currently past any need of fruit flies until I get more Orchid nymphs or have a successful breeding with Jane.


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## Graceface (Dec 24, 2018)

I'm adding to this topic rather than start a new one, as I'm experiencing the exact same thing with Jane today.

Jane has been healthy and acting normally. I fed her yesterday, she consumed 8 of 12 blue bottle flies I gave her. I removed the 4 uneaten flies this morning and she was fine. It has been about 2 or 3 hours since I removed the flies, and she sick. Jane is discolored, and has been 'breathing heavy' I'll call it, pumping her abdomen, with occasional convulsions/spasms.

I fed her some raw honey water and she drank, but she is not moving now and I know how this ended twice before. I fear and expect the worst

Here is a photo of her. Idk if you can see the brown spots on her raptorials. She has brown spots on her face, as well as a general sickly looking tone, very different from her normal striking white. 





I'm honestly out of ideas as to what is wrong. Genetics? I got all the affected females from Panterra Pets. Idk, though, as my males from the same bloodline are perfectly healthy kept in similar conditions, just slightly cooler (72 f VS 84 f) 

I feed the same blue bottles to 40 other mantids with no issues

Is there an illness that has these symptoms for mantids? I'll go research it in Orin's book later, but I have 40 other mouths to feed right now. 

Merry Christmas to me


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## Mantis Lady (Dec 24, 2018)

Sorry hear  that Jane got sick too  

it is strange that affects only your females and not your males. Maybe it is genectics, but I really dont know

*hugs*


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## Graceface (Dec 24, 2018)

Little Mantis said:


> Sorry hear  that Jane got sick too
> 
> it is strange that affects only your females and not your males. Maybe it is genectics, but I really dont know
> 
> *hugs*


Thanks, friend, I sure need hugs today.

I'm out of ideas as to things I can do to improve and prevent this in the future. It's really disheartening to have every adult female Orchid die in my helpless hands. My L4/5s and adult males doing great


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## hysteresis (Dec 24, 2018)

Guh! How disheartening!

This isn't the outcome I was hoping for.

Sorry this is happening, @Graceface.


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## Graceface (Dec 24, 2018)

Thanks @hysteresis

I poured over Orin's book hoping for a clue as to something I can try. Maybe more ventilation for the adult female enclosures? Here is a quote from pg 165: "Well fed adult females require good ventilation or they fall over dead (a mostly screen cage, or air circulated by a fan or aquarium pump is sufficient)." 

I have a plastic enclosure with a screen top in a ventilated aquarium tank. While I don't really think they dropped dead due to stale air, perhaps I will cut the sides of the enclosure out as well, or add a fan or aquarium pump as Orin suggests, to be safe. He does specifically mention well fed females need more ventilation, so males and nymphs may be fine in my setup and that is why my female adults are the only ones suffering from this anomaly. I suppose more vents can't possibly _hurt_ them as long as my humidity is in range. 

Interestingly, both Heidi and Jane lived the exact number of days as an adult, Letty only 4 days shorter. It seems odd that they would be fine in the same conditions for weeks and then all of a sudden fall ill from the air when nothing changed to spur this. Letty wasn't "well fed" either, as she had injuries and ate a third of what the others did. Idk... I'm rambling now, sorry. I'm pretty bummed out


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## hysteresis (Dec 24, 2018)

@Graceface i wouldnt cut too much away at once. A little goes a long way.

Ive been playing with my hygrometers and can tell you just 20pct more opening dries substrates out much faster than I would have expected.


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## Graceface (Dec 24, 2018)

hysteresis said:


> @Graceface i wouldnt cut too much away at once. A little goes a long way.
> 
> Ive been playing with my hygrometers and can tell you just 20pct more opening dries substrates out much faster than I would have expected.


My substrate already dries out within a day, so I personally feel there is enough ventilation. I guess I just don't know what else to try. All my other Orchids are male or L4/5 now so I have a while to think about it, lol.

Coincidentally, while I have many hygrometers already, I ordered some with probes the other day so I could monitor the humidity inside the enclosures VS the air in the tank around the enclosures. I'll do a test when they finally arrive on the slow boat from China via eBay


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## hysteresis (Dec 24, 2018)

Good plan.

Orin also writes about being sensitized to humidities and temperatures. Remember that? Something like that?

If you keep them too humid,  they're less able to tolerate a dry out.


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## Graceface (Dec 26, 2018)

hysteresis said:


> Good plan.
> 
> Orin also writes about being sensitized to humidities and temperatures. Remember that? Something like that?
> 
> If you keep them too humid,  they're less able to tolerate a dry out.


Im leaning towards some kind of contamination being the cause. The turning brown makes me believe they got infected by something. I have no evidence of any mold or bacteria in the enclosures or tank, but the human eye can't physically see bacteria and germs. The way they all got brown spots and then turned brown seems disease related.

I can't find any info on potential diseases for Mantids, as Orin says there's not much that can be done since "few issues can be meaningfully treated or fixed." He also says, "If animals are dying, they are not getting the proper amount of food, air, or water. Some species require a more narrow set of conditions but deaths are nearly always the result of improper conditions."

Ugh. ###### am I doing wrong to my adult girls?! I will set up the adult enclosure and put a hygrometer inside, and one outside and see if there is a major difference. My substrate dries out in less than a day so I feel I'm giving enough ventilation, but I'm running out of ideas and with 3 almost identical deaths, I _must_ be making a mistake somewhere, right?? 

The three amigos, aka my 3 adult male orchids are still totally fine, 8 weeks mature and going strong (kept in 32oz cups with fabric lids, with not a single death and I've matured 7 males to adult)

Anyone who has kept Orchids successfully have some advice as to what I can do to improve/prevent this from happening again? 

Photo examples of enclosures for your adult females? Do they differ from the enclosures for your males other than size (ie more vents, etc) 

Anything would be appreciated


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## hysteresis (Dec 26, 2018)

@Graceface you're right, i think, considering the discoloration. 

I'll try to do some searches myself in a while. Have to do some shopping for our late family xmas dinner tonight, as both stepdaughters havent been here until today. 

I sincerely hope you can gain some understanding of this situation.


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## Graceface (Dec 26, 2018)

hysteresis said:


> @Graceface you're right, i think, considering the discoloration.
> 
> I'll try to do some searches myself in a while. Have to do some shopping for our late family xmas dinner tonight, as both stepdaughters havent been here until today.
> 
> I sincerely hope you can gain some understanding of this situation.


Thank you, friend. I love my Orchids and I just wanna succeed. I don't get why the adult females are having an issue and no one else is. There must be a flaw somewhere. Even if they are getting sick, there must be something I can do to prevent it. 

You don't need to do any research for me,enjoy your holiday dinner  I'm hoping someone here who has experience with Orchids may be able to chime in and help. I'd love a verification as if my enclosures are adequate, or if there is a glaring problem in my system. I may reach out to a breeder and ask what they do for their females


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## hysteresis (Dec 26, 2018)

Yeh im still gonna look because I think it's worthwhile. ✌

This seems idiopathic so maybe it "doesn't take much" to have this happen to mantids. Super worthwhile.


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## Graceface (Jan 16, 2019)

Update:

I finally got my hygrometers with probes from eBay, so yesterday I did an experiment.

I cleaned my aquarium and enclosures well, then cut vents in both sides of 2 of my adult enclosures. Inside each enclosure, I placed a different substrate; one with damp cotton makeup remover pads, and one with damp paper towels. I sprayed 4 sprays of mist in each enclosure and placed the lid on with the probe inside. They were both put inside an aquarium with a humidifier set to 70% and a lid covering 80% of the aquarium top. 

The humidity spiked (expected) at first, up to 99% with the cotton rounds and 90% with the paper towels. I left it overnight and checked it this am. I was surprised to see that it was still very humid in the morning, with the cotton rounds reading 90% and paper towels reading 85%. 

I'm surprised to see how humid it is in the enclosures, even with the added ventilation. I will try lowering the humidity setting on my controller and increasing the top vent opening on the aquarium to get the humidifier to kick on more frequently and exchange the air more. Now I am suspecting that I may have had inadequate ventilation in the past for my adult females, based on these results, though I am not certain that is the cause of my previous health issues. 

Different care sheets say different things as far as humidity goes for Orchids, though the general guideline is 60-80%. Orin says adult females need more ventilation so I assume they'd like a lower humidity, like 60%.

Where do I want humidity to be for adult female orchids?


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## MantisGirl13 (Jan 16, 2019)

I have never kept an adult orchid, but I'd say go for much lower humidity. I keep my L4s at about 60% RH and they are thriving.

- MantisGirl13


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## Graceface (Jan 16, 2019)

@MantisGirl13 I had previously been keeping them all set at 70%, but based on these results, I lowered them to 60% and increased the top ventilation on the aquarium. (I don't have the probes inside the enclosures now, as I just received the female Orchids I ordered and I put them in the enclosures; I'm currently trying to get them warm )

The readings from inside the enclosure yesterday were 10% to 20% above the programmed RH setting on my controller. I think lowering the setting 10% and more ventilation on the aquarium top will result in around 60% inside the enclosures


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## hysteresis (Jan 16, 2019)

Also, more of an interpretation read between the lines, its likely better to keep them in the lower range of the humidity distribution. If they by chance run a little dry, and they're used to being on the dryer end, they'll tolerate the momentary lapse better.


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## Graceface (Jan 16, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> Also, more of an interpretation read between the lines, its likely better to keep them in the lower range of the humidity distribution. If they by chance run a little dry, and they're used to being on the dryer end, they'll tolerate the momentary lapse better.


Yes, I agree. 

The substrate has always dried out so quickly, I assumed the enclosures were drying out more than it appears they are. I thought that the humidity was spiking then falling rapidly, but it spikes and then tends to stay above the aquarium ambient RH by 10%. 

I may need to add mesh on another side of the enclosures to help make sure they aren't staying too humid or getting stuffy at any point. 

Never once had an issue with my nymphs or adult males


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## hysteresis (Jan 16, 2019)

@Graceface this is something we'll all learn from.

I hope this all works out.

*#orchidstrong *

**


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## Jaywo (Jan 20, 2019)

I have heard that with orchids, they can be over feed especially with females that are producing or ready to produce. Something about holding egg sacks and not having enough room. I read it on this forum in another post about ooth problems. This person had two females die and then limited to two flies for feeding for the females and that seemed to do the trick. I'm going to do that as well. My petals died from being egg bound and too large to lay.


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## hysteresis (Jan 20, 2019)

Lots to drink too.


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## Graceface (Jan 20, 2019)

Jaywo said:


> I have heard that with orchids, they can be over feed especially with females that are producing or ready to produce. Something about holding egg sacks and not having enough room. I read it on this forum in another post about ooth problems. This person had two females die and then limited to two flies for feeding for the females and that seemed to do the trick. I'm going to do that as well. My petals died from being egg bound and too large to lay.


I have recently been limiting food also. Orin's book says that the more they eat, the more air exchanges they will need. It's possible they ate too much and couldn't breathe in an environment where they previously were fine. 

I have been feeding 2-4 flies at a time, just to be safe.


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