# Guarantees



## PhilinYuma (Jun 7, 2011)

The poll speaks for itself. Check any statement that you agree with!


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 7, 2011)

Well, I'll resurrect this thread again. It appears that 37 people have answered to date and only two have had the time to respond. I would really appreciate a reply and it should only take ten seconds of your time. One person's opinion on this subject means little, but a cumulative reply will let us all know how members as a whole feel about asking for and giving guarantees on livestock offered for sale. For newbies, I would point out that though the results are public, there is no record of who voted what. You are also welcome to reply on the thread, if you have comments not covered by the poll. Thanks for your help.

*Also note: You are not restricted to one answer!*


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## jetsky82 (Jun 8, 2011)

I like this. However, the initial votes make it appear that there will be a relatively even spread of answers which doesn't make the issue any more clear in my mind because people can select multiple answers.

Perhaps a simpler dichotomy would be better. For example, asking the question "would you offer a live arrival guarantee if you were a seller" and have just yes or no, and "would you buy from a seller who explicitly did not have a live arrival guarantee?" with just a yes or no answer.


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## Peter Clausen (Jun 8, 2011)

I voted for four of them, I think. I could have voted yes on some of the others with small, circumstantial modifications. For example, I personally guarantee live nymphs with priority mail, but would not do so if shipping to Yuma in July! The latter is independant of ooths/"not ooths", though your question forced the comparison.

And same for the question below that- In a sense, I do offer an unconditional guarantee on mantises because I won't (hopefully) ship them if I know the temps at the destination are extreme.

By loss in mail, I assume you mean the carrier's fault, rather than a customer providing an incorrect address (the latter happens occasionally). Again, circumstantial if I resolve the issues differently or by degrees.

In fact, most if not all of my no's were cirumstantial.

Still, I think the questions and answers are interesting to think about.


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 8, 2011)

jetsky82 said:


> I like this. However, the initial votes make it appear that there will be a relatively even spread of answers which doesn't make the issue any more clear in my mind because people can select multiple answers.
> 
> Perhaps a simpler dichotomy would be better. For example, asking the question "would you offer a live arrival guarantee if you were a seller" and have just yes or no, and "would you buy from a seller who explicitly did not have a live arrival guarantee?" with just a yes or no answer.


You might be right. Give it a try!


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## jetsky82 (Jun 8, 2011)

On a related note, I think that the new clause that Frey added at the end of her for sale addresses the issues that have been discussed on this board.


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 10, 2011)

Time to put this tired old thread to bed.

I reckoned that I would get a hundred views, 1/7th of the number who viewed the bin Lauden thread!, and get maybe 200 -300 quantifiable results. In fact the poll got 117 vies --some obviously duplicates -- and 19 responses for 25 results. The usual way to run a check on the reliability of such outcome oriented results, is to run a chi square test on them, but obviously the sample is much too small for that. I was still able to draw some plausible conclusions, though:

The vast majority of members who answered this poll were not interested enough in the subject to answer it, though a few always void their participation by hitting the wrong button first.. This suggests that, despite our recent ethical discussions, most folks make different arrangements with different sellers without any consideration other than their getting what they want or they didn't like the wording of the poll

Nearly half (20/45) of them would not insist on guaranteed live delivery of nymphs if what they were ordering was "hot" or inexpensive or if they only paid for Priority shipping.

Only 2 responders demand an absolute guarantee; the majority applied it only to nymphs sent by Express mail which arrived in a timely fashion, not delayed in the mail.

2 breeders say that they offer a conditional guarantee, 6 said that they do not. "But I try to make the customer happy", is a process rather than an outcome statement and has no weight in this poll.

So there you have it. I suspect that a number of viewers, like Jetsky above, thought that this had something to do with Frey's (I wonder why?!) practices, but it was not, or I would have said so. Frey now has her own statement applying to her sales which seems pretty airtight.

Rather, I was interested in shaping my own sales policies, particularity in regard to the use of Express shipping . I am in a "second day" town, , as are many sellers so Express maiil sent out on Monday will arrive on Wednesda and Priority will usually arrive, regardless of where in the U.S. by Wednesday, so this poll has been of help to me..

My thanks to those who responded. Any criticism of my "analysis" is welcome.


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## angelofdeathzz (Jun 10, 2011)

I think a guarantee on all shipping would be nice, but a guarantee on express IS A MUST DO THING, I would maybe not buy to many or none at all with no guarantee.

My 2 cents are in.


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 10, 2011)

angelofdeathzz said:


> I think a guarantee on all shipping would be nice, but a guarantee on express IS A MUST DO THING, I would maybe not buy to many or none at all with no guarantee.
> 
> My 2 cents are in.


Yeah, I think that everyone will agree with you, otherwise why go to the extra expense? What guarantee, if any, do you offer on nymphs/ ooths sent by Priority (and I think that the vast majority are sent this way)?


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## angelofdeathzz (Jun 10, 2011)

I guarantee EVERY dollar spent on Express, and did have some molt during shipping that I replaced the very next day w/express, and I think I would replace priority shipped stuff but it would depend on what and the contents of my ad, I mean some things just ship better than other's depending on time of year, instar and when they last molted, I learned the hard way to only ship out freshly molted Nymphs so that risk is lowered(molt/mismolt during shipping).

If you buy some exotic and expensive mantis I suggest Express all day, but if it's 5 Budwings or Chinese its maybe not needed.

I would replace or refund priority but not the shipping and handling unless stated other wise, is my thought's on it.

I try to promote fairness even if I'm the one on the short end of the stick...


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## d17oug18 (Jun 10, 2011)

I personally guarantee everything on my site, if my FF culture was wet and killed all the flies, im sending a new one(which ive done many times over the years past). I do the same with mantis, if the order is big enough sometimes ill send a whole ooth just as an apology. The only i dont guarantee is the ooth hatch rate, if youve had it a week and it hatched one thats on you lol, i sent a fertile ooth and it hatched!(which hasnt happened to me yet, but ive gotten complaints on hatch rates(("this ooth shouldve hatched 100 and it only hatched 50")), and i think thats bogus. If your going to sell something have enough product to replace what your sending or else dont send it at all, thats what i think.


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 10, 2011)

d17oug18 said:


> I personally guarantee everything on my site, if my FF culture was wet and killed all the flies, im sending a new one(which ive done many times over the years past). I do the same with mantis, if the order is big enough sometimes ill send a whole ooth just as an apology. The only i dont guarantee is the ooth hatch rate, if youve had it a week and it hatched one thats on you lol, i sent a fertile ooth and it hatched!(which hasnt happened to me yet, but ive gotten complaints on hatch rates(("this ooth shouldve hatched 100 and it only hatched 50")), and i think thats bogus. If your going to sell something have enough product to replace what your sending or else dont send it at all, thats what i think.


You sound like a customer's dream, Doug! I'd never heard of anyone complaining about the hatch rate! If it were me, I'd either assume that the ooth was on the low end of the production scale (most female mantids can't count above seventy, anyway) or that I had screwed up the humidity.

I'm not sure how you work your "keep enough in reserve to make replacements" policy.Surely, at the least, you'd always end up with one ooth or batch of nymphs that you could never sell?


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## sporeworld (Jun 10, 2011)

Good point. When buying exotics, it seems unlikely that there will be replacement stock just laying around.

I wonder if some of this could be boiled down to question for the consumer: Would you pay 10% for guaranteed live delivery? My experience has been about 5% loss in shipping delicate L1's long distance. So a 10% add-on would seem reasonable. But as most people dealing with exotics are already prone to risk-taking, they may just be happy letting it ride.

But either way, I'm a big fan of a spelled out policy. Adding it as a tag or signature line here on the forum might help frequest breeders draw people in as well.


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## angelofdeathzz (Jun 10, 2011)

d17oug18 said:


> I personally guarantee everything on my site, if my FF culture was wet and killed all the flies, im sending a new one(which ive done many times over the years past). I do the same with mantis, if the order is big enough sometimes ill send a whole ooth just as an apology. The only i dont guarantee is the ooth hatch rate, if youve had it a week and it hatched one thats on you lol, i sent a fertile ooth and it hatched!(which hasnt happened to me yet, but ive gotten complaints on hatch rates(("this ooth shouldve hatched 100 and it only hatched 50")), and i think thats bogus. If your going to sell something have enough product to replace what your sending or else dont send it at all, thats what i think.


If I bought a"Dragon Egg" and it died would you replace it?  (I couldn't help myself on that one)


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 10, 2011)

Sporeworld said:


> Good point. When buying exotics, it seems unlikely that there will be replacement stock just laying around.
> 
> I wonder if some of this could be boiled down to question for the consumer: Would you pay 10% for guaranteed live delivery? My experience has been about 5% loss in shipping delicate L1's long distance. So a 10% add-on would seem reasonable. But as most people dealing with exotics are already prone to risk-taking, they may just be happy letting it ride.
> 
> *But either way, I'm a big fan of a spelled out policy. Adding it as a tag or signature line here on the forum might help frequest breeders draw people in as well.*


Yeah, and I saw that you "walked the walk" with yr O. gracilis advert. I think that it is good for forum members and sellers alike. I'm going to make a standard disclaimer that spells out my obligations and buyers' expectations, but that won't mean that I can't bend the rules in the buyer's favor if I wish. Perhaps this idea will catch on.


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## d17oug18 (Jun 10, 2011)

the way i see it, is when someone nymphs for sale, they are going to keep a lot for themselves, and if your going to sell nymphs i feel you should be prepared to give your spares away if there is a problem. I dont know, guess my standards are higher than most, i love doing business the way id want others to do business with me. I have so many stories on this topic lol, ive gone so far and beyond for some customers i can see why they come back, heck i have a handful of people from asia, pay 100$ for shipping sometimes only for FF's. They know why and i know why =).


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## GreenOasis (Jun 11, 2011)

Doug, I think I love you! Just kidding, Hubby! (He checks on me every now and then...  )

I'm sorry to say that I do not make any implicit live arrival guarantees. However, I think my feedback speaks for itself as far as what I would do to keep a customer happy. Am I going to buy the "they all arrived dead" twice? Probably not...I am not "out for the money" but I also don't want to get ripped off myself for my excellent customer-service reputation! (Barely making ends meet here as it is!) So far, I haven't had anyone (that I know of) try to abuse my generous nature, but I am always keeping an eye out. :shifty: The day you see a negative feedback will be the day I've caught someone trying to cheat me...and they've decided to "troll" about it!  

I agree with Doug...do whatever it takes to make a customer happy.


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## kamakiri (Jun 12, 2011)

I think terms only need to comply with the specific ad posted by the seller, and any other commitments made via email or PM. Any other assumptions on the buyer's part are not contractual.


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## Termite48 (Jun 16, 2011)

I have a question regarding the shipment of nymphs that has everything to do with the topic here. Recently I had something along the lines of the following happen. When ordering a given number of nymphs, what should be ones guarantee should the number ordered not be there when the package is opened. In other words, one orders ten nymphs and there are only five when the package is opened. The sender could say and has, that the nymphs must have been cannibalistic. Can someone with more experience in this area, than I, lend an opinion as to what one should do, from the receiver's side, and also from an honest sender's side of the transaction?


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 16, 2011)

Was this a US shipment? It seems highly unlikely that 50% of the nymphs would eat the other 50% in 3-4 days in the dark.. If the seller thought that they were this cannibalistic, why not send them in individual pots? If you had a live delivery guarantee, then you should get a replacement, since only five arrived alive.

If you are at an impasse, simply post in Breeders' Feedback what happened. This helps other members and allows the sender to make their side of story public if they think that you are being unfair.


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## d17oug18 (Jun 16, 2011)

Yeah, for a proper opinion, more information is needed. As Phil said, Was this national or international? What where the species? How big was the container? Did it look like there were mantis pieces in the container(because we all know mantis are messy eaters)? How hot was it during shipping? Lastly, was there anything inside the container for the mantis to hold on too?

In a perfect world for 10 nymphs, it would be at least 20oz container WITH at least exselcior. As well as, boats loads of flies and EVEN then some are smacked to hard and eaten. But experience can alwaz tell us that if there was cannibalism then there would be ALOT of mantis wings and legs around =)


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