# P.W. Mating Tips?



## sinensispsyched (Jun 7, 2013)

I have my two PW's together right now. The male mounted (VERY quickly) but won't connect. I've tried blowing, darkness, and some alone time. I'm about to try to raise the humidity a little bit and up the heat. Any other advice to be had? Also, how long (on average) does it take wallies to connect?


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## jrh3 (Jun 7, 2013)

talk to silent devil, he did it but said they were very very hard.


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## ScienceGirl (Jun 7, 2013)

Yeah - try talking to some of the experienced breeders. Especially those that supply wahlbergiis. Also try searching the forum.

Here is who I think keeps them:

hibiscusmile

jamurfjr

Orin

SilentDevil

Mime454

brancsikia339

hierodula

Tammy Wolfe

Orin posted the dedicated caresheet for them. It seems to be a work in progress, though... Here is the link to the caresheet: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=29715

You should definately try talking to him.

Good luck!


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## brancsikia339 (Jun 7, 2013)

I did it by putting them in a cage together, keeping a close watch. After each mating, id remove the male for about 2 days and then try again. This worked three times (every time was an over nighter) until the last one which the male was eaten


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## hierodula (Jun 7, 2013)

I have them tooo  I found the male was more ready to connect when placed directly on the females back. Mine connected within the hour, but you can always try moving the males abdomen if all else fails


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## ScienceGirl (Jun 7, 2013)

brancsikia339 and hierodula - I added you guys to the list.  



hierodula said:


> I have them tooo  I found the male was more ready to connect when placed directly on the females back. Mine connected within the hour, but you can always try moving the males abdomen if all else fails





brancsikia339 said:


> I did it by putting them in a cage together, keeping a close watch. After each mating, id remove the male for about 2 days and then try again. This worked three times (every time was an over nighter) until the last one which the male was eaten


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## twolfe (Jun 7, 2013)

I've had several people ask me in chat/private messages for advice as I've been keeping the same wahlbergii bloodline going since I got my L1 nymphs in August 2011, but I'm afraid that I may not be able to say that a few months from now. When my original stock became adults in December 2011, I mated all of the females without much difficulty. I joked that they bred like rabbits for me. All five of my females laid fertile ooths that produced over 600 nymphs. (It would have been more but I gave away a couple of the females after they laid a few ooths.) The majority of the other members who bought nymphs from the same seller back in August/Sept 2011 were not able to breed their wahlbergii. I'm not sure why. I was able to breed their offspring again without any issues. The females were quite obvious about spraying pheromones after dark, and I usually mated them late at night as soon as the female seemed receptive. The males usually connected shortly after mounting the female. I struggled a bit with the next generation but was again able to mate all of my females. I had to put the males on the backs instead of letting them mount on their own. Now their offspring are adults, and I've had difficulty mating all of my females this time (round # 4). The females don't seem as receptive to mating. The males mounted and tried to connect but were not able to. Many of the males were eaten. A few died of old age. Now I have a couple of females I got from another member (same bloodline/member got them from a friend who got them from me and bred them) who is not able to keep mantids in the summer. These females are receptive but the only fresh male I had showed no interest in mating and was finally eaten.

I've discussed this with one of the more experienced mantid breeders (his name is not listed above but this species is on his blog, and he started with this species in 2005), and he mentioned that he also had trouble keeping wahlbergii going for more than a few generations. I think hibicusmile has acquired different stock at times according to her bugatorium thread, but I'm curious how many generations she and Orin were able to keep going. I've heard others have had trouble keeping these going for more than 3 - 4 generations. The bad news is that others I have given/sold wahlbergii to this last time also had trouble getting them to mate...and a few of them are great breeders. That said, I think the stock SilentDevil got from a friend is the same bloodline as mine, and he's had some success as have a few others. So, there is hope...

Give them plenty of light and feed them a variety of insects. Heating them up seems to help but also sometimes seems to make them more aggressive. Try late at night instead of the daytime. I often have more success breeding in the summer/fall than I do in the winter/early spring. Unfortunately we've had such cold and rainy weather this spring that I haven't been able to catch many insects yet. I sometimes put my mantids outside in the sun, and it's been too cold to do that. Be careful if you do. Plastic enclosures in the hot sun will kill the mantis. I use net enclosures and put them outside the window by the computer so that I can watch them. Extreme temperature fluctuations can also kill them...even in net enclosures.

Good luck and let us know if you are able to breed them. Hoping some can keep these going.


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## ScienceGirl (Jun 7, 2013)

Tell us how it works out, sinensispsyched!

Also, have you read "My technique for mating mantids" posted by Rick? It is in the breeding category. Here is a link: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7112

Make sure that the male has a lot of room to make his escape. Put them in either a large cage, or in a room.


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## SilentDeviL (Jun 7, 2013)

Tammy Wolfe said:


> I've had several people ask me in chat/private messages for advice as I've been keeping the same wahlbergii bloodline going since I got my L1 nymphs in August 2011, but I'm afraid that I may not be able to say that a few months from now. When my original stock became adults in December 2011, I mated all of the females without much difficulty. I joked that they bred like rabbits for me. All five of my females laid fertile ooths that produced over 600 nymphs. (It would have been more but I gave away a couple of the females after they laid a few ooths.) The majority of the other members who bought nymphs from the same seller back in August/Sept 2011 were not able to breed their wahlbergii. I'm not sure why. I was able to breed their offspring again without any issues. The females were quite obvious about spraying pheromones after dark, and I usually mated them late at night as soon as the female seemed receptive. The males usually connected shortly after mounting the female. I struggled a bit with the next generation but was again able to mate all of my females. I had to put the males on the backs instead of letting them mount on their own. Now their offspring are adults, and I've had difficulty mating all of my females this time (round # 4). The females don't seem as receptive to mating. The males mounted and tried to connect but were not able to. Many of the males were eaten. A few died of old age. Now I have a couple of females I got from another member (same bloodline/member got them from a friend who got them from me and bred them) who is not able to keep mantids in the summer. These females are receptive but the only fresh male I had showed no interest in mating and was finally eaten.
> 
> I've discussed this with one of the more experienced mantid breeders (his name is not listed above but this species is on his blog, and he started with this species in 2005), and he mentioned that he also had trouble keeping wahlbergii going for more than a few generations. I think hibicusmile has acquired different stock at times according to her bugatorium thread, but I'm curious how many generations she and Orin were able to keep going. I've heard others have had trouble keeping these going for more than 3 - 4 generations. The bad news is that others I have given/sold wahlbergii to this last time also had trouble getting them to mate...and a few of them are great breeders. That said, I think the stock SilentDevil got from a friend is the same bloodline as mine, and he's had some success as have a few others. So, there is hope...
> 
> ...


Ya Tammy I think i got the gen that is hard to mate...... I had 22 male 10 females ... now I'm down to 11 male and 10 Female but I only saw 4 Pair mated for 6-7hr with my only eyes ... the rest is still trying till i can see the connection ... Male will sit on Female for 2-5 days ... and If they still don;t connect ... then the male will be gone ..... all i can say the willing to mate males is only 40% the rest will jump on but wont mate ..... 11 of my male stay too long with out mating I think the female got feed up lol took them for dinner .... I have try many ways ... heat them up spray water ... Nothing seems to be working other then keep them under nature from the Sun power .... If the male wont mate..... it will not mate till it die.... thats why if u see a male mate after the connection make sure u save him for another female ...


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## sinensispsyched (Jun 7, 2013)

ScienceGirl said:


> Tell us how it works out, sinensispsyched!
> 
> Also, have you read "My technique for mating mantids" posted by Rick? It is in the breeding category. Here is a link: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7112
> 
> Make sure that the male has a lot of room to make his escape. Put them in either a large cage, or in a room.


Yep, I have! It's been an amazing help, but, as others have said, wallies have their own issues. Why can't they lose their darn virginity?


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## SilentDeviL (Jun 7, 2013)

sinensispsyched said:


> Yep, I have! It's been an amazing help, but, as others have said, wallies have their own issues. Why can't they lose their darn virginity?


For sure ,,, they have their own Issues If not P.W's will be like Cero's ..... all over the place ... If PW's are that easy to mate I'm sure u'll find them on the Sales/Trades section all the time ...


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## twolfe (Jun 7, 2013)

SilentDeviL said:


> For sure ,,, they have their own Issues If not P.W's will be like Cero's ..... all over the place ... If PW's are that easy to mate I'm sure u'll find them on the Sales/Trades section all the time ...


They were like Creos for me the first few generations!

The good thing about this species (at least in my experience) is that I only had to mate the females once and they laid several fertile ooths. Hatch rate didn't drop until the last few ooths. I'll be interested in seeing how many nymphs you get SilentDevil.


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## SilentDeviL (Jun 7, 2013)

Tammy Wolfe said:


> They were like Creos for me the first few generations!
> 
> The good thing about this species (at least in my experience) is that I only had to mate the females once and they laid several fertile ooths. Hatch rate didn't drop until the last few ooths. I'll be interested in seeing how many nymphs you get SilentDevil.


lol I'll keep around 100 Nymph for next gen keep it going, then sell off all the rest of ooth .


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## ScienceGirl (Jun 8, 2013)

Oh, good luck Tammy Wolfe, sinensispsyched and SilentDeviL!

I hope that your hatch rate is high.

I wonder if there is other stock on other forums or something.


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## agent A (Jun 10, 2013)

i really wonder if inbreeding causes breeding issues

creos will become less willing to mate and more aggressive towards each other after a few generations of inbreeding, maybe pseudocreos show the same issues


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## ismart (Jun 10, 2013)

I have about 4 ooths incubating right now. I have noticed with this species among others that all males are clearly not created equal. Out of four males only one was able to mate multiple females. My other three males either would just ride around until eaten or jump off and soon die of old age. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and hope to have a next generation soon?


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## SilentDeviL (Jun 10, 2013)

ismart said:


> I have about 4 ooths incubating right now. I have noticed with this species among others that all males are clearly not created equal. Out of four males only one was able to mate multiple females. My other three males either would just ride around until eaten or jump off and soon die of old age. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and hope to have a next generation soon?


Ya SO i was right .... Not all male willing to mate ... So don't matter how many male u got ~~~!!! U just need 1 sex machine to get the job done ... lol


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## twolfe (Jun 10, 2013)

SilentDeviL said:


> Ya SO i was right .... Not all male willing to mate ... So don't matter how many male u got ~~~!!! U just need 1 sex machine to get the job done ... lol


I had seven males with my original stock, and I used everyone for mating. Back then, they were all interested. My problem with this generation is that some of the females aren't interested. They eat the males before mating, and that never happened in the past. I've had some females interested and some males but never two interested at the same time.

Good luck to you and ismart! Hope you can keep these going.


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## agent A (Jun 10, 2013)

Tammy Wolfe said:


> I had seven males with my original stock, and I used everyone for mating. Back then, they were all interested. My problem with this generation is that some of the females aren't interested. They eat the males before mating, and that never happened in the past. I've had some females interested and some males but never two interested at the same time.
> 
> Good luck to you and ismart! Hope you can keep these going.


I think it's from inbreeding, and I think his are from the ooths you sent me


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## gripen (Jun 10, 2013)

I know we talked about this in chat a while back that maybe it was less variety of wild feeders that was the problem.


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## SilentDeviL (Jun 10, 2013)

gripen said:


> I know we talked about this in chat a while back that maybe it was less variety of wild feeders that was the problem.


I'll give it a test and see ... Is June now should be able to catch some Insect in my back yard .. still got 6 female to mate headache ...


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## jrh3 (Jun 11, 2013)

SilentDeviL said:


> I'll give it a test and see ... Is June now should be able to catch some Insect in my back yard .. still got 6 female to mate headache ...


im gonna try this when mine hatch. from L1 to adult i will offer flies moths katydids and other insects just to keep it broad for them and with fingers crossed i will have a good breeding stock, lol. its weird how generations change, and maybe its time for some fresh bloodlines to be introduced somehow.


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## sinensispsyched (Jun 11, 2013)

Well, after going on to day 3 riding around on top of the female, I found his wings at the bottom of the enclosure.  If the female lays an ooth in the next two days, I'll hold hope that they connected when I wasn't around.

As for the males being eaten, I believe that if you offer a female food while he's still riding around, you could save him from being eaten.


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## twolfe (Jun 11, 2013)

sinensispsyched said:


> Well, after going on to day 3 riding around on top of the female, I found his wings at the bottom of the enclosure.  If the female lays an ooth in the next two days, I'll hold hope that they connected when I wasn't around.
> 
> As for the males being eaten, I believe that if you offer a female food while he's still riding around, you could save him from being eaten.


The wahlbergii don't connect that long. So, it's possible, and they often mate at night. I would incubate anyway. Some of my ooths that aren't fertile are very thin, but you can't always tell. The fertile females do typically lay ooths on a regular basis. With mine, I found some of the ones that weren't mated with this last generation would hold back and then lay really long and thin ooths.

But feeding the females doesn't always work with this species. I've fed some females so much that they pushed away food I was offering them but ate the male anyway.



jrh3 said:


> im gonna try this when mine hatch. from L1 to adult i will offer flies moths katydids and other insects just to keep it broad for them and with fingers crossed i will have a good breeding stock, lol. its weird how generations change, and maybe its time for some fresh bloodlines to be introduced somehow.


I think Rebecca had some ooths in the past that were different bloodline. And Yen was selling some nymphs last year that were supposed to be a different bloodline. I got some of them, but I had the same issue.


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## ismart (Jun 11, 2013)

Tammy Wolfe said:


> I had seven males with my original stock, and I used everyone for mating. Back then, they were all interested. My problem with this generation is that some of the females aren't interested. They eat the males before mating, and that never happened in the past. I've had some females interested and some males but never two interested at the same time.
> 
> Good luck to you and ismart! Hope you can keep these going.


What do you mean by the females not being interested? Do they not let the males mount before getting eaten? I have found with this species you could just easily place the males right on the females backs. This method has let me save quite a few males in the past. If the female goes nutts right away, then you know she is not ready remove the male immedately.

The two females that i was able to breed. Would not tolerate a second mating. As soon as the male would touch there wings they would go nutts attacking the males. My two unmated females were very receptive til all the males died in the end.

Years ago when i breed this species for the first time. I had this same problem with the males. I don't know know if this is caused by inbreeding, or diet, but anything is worth trying to get a healthy stock going.

Best of luck to all those trying to breed them. These guys are one of my favorite species. There mannerisms remind me of cats the most.


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## ismart (Jun 11, 2013)

sinensispsyched said:


> Well, after going on to day 3 riding around on top of the female, I found his wings at the bottom of the enclosure.  If the female lays an ooth in the next two days, I'll hold hope that they connected when I wasn't around.
> 
> As for the males being eaten, I believe that if you offer a female food while he's still riding around, you could save him from being eaten.


I do hope you were successful!  

No matter how full you may think she is? There is always room for desert.


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## brancsikia339 (Jun 11, 2013)

My female is still alive, she isn't laying though. Hopefully her ooth will hatch. Had her for 9 months now


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## twolfe (Jun 11, 2013)

ismart said:


> What do you mean by the females not being interested? Do they not let the males mount before getting eaten? I have found with this species you could just easily place the males right on the females backs. This method has let me save quite a few males in the past. If the female goes nutts right away, then you know she is not ready remove the male immedately.
> 
> The two females that i was able to breed. Would not tolerate a second mating. As soon as the male would touch there wings they would go nutts attacking the males. My two unmated females were very receptive til all the males died in the end.
> 
> ...


With my original stock I didn't have to place the males on the females with the exception of one of the females. The females were all spraying pheromones and the males mounted them on their own. These females sprayed pheromones almost up until the day they died. The next generation was about the same. But with my third round, I did put the males on the females back and sometimes used different males. With my current generation, the females aren't spraying pheromones like they have done in the past. If they do, they are less obvious about it and do it for a shorter period at night. I tried letting them mate on their own in large terrariums, and the males kept their distance. When they didn't, they were eaten. Then I tried putting the males on the females back, and the females would reach back and try to grab the male. When the male was mounted on her back, the females made no effort other than to try to remove the male. In the past I've seen the females work with the males to get in the right position for mating.

I've had the females be receptive as early as two weeks by always by four weeks. You mentioned the females "going nutts." Well, I've had some do that at three weeks, four weeks, two months, three months. They never seem to be receptive. A couple of the males that I had tried and tried to connect but were not able to. Despite not being receptive, I think these females are all healthy. Some that molted to adults in November and December are still alive and have a hearty appetitie. They lay ooths but much less often that mated females do.

I have six wahlbergii nymphs that are pre and sub adults that a friend sent me to care for. (Same bloodline I think) I will be trying again if he doesn't want these back.


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## SilentDeviL (Jun 11, 2013)

Tammy Wolfe said:


> With my original stock I didn't have to place the males on the females with the exception of one of the females. The females were all spraying pheromones and the males mounted them on their own. These females sprayed pheromones almost up until the day they died. The next generation was about the same. But with my third round, I did put the males on the females back and sometimes used different males. With my current generation, the females aren't spraying pheromones like they have done in the past. If they do, they are less obvious about it and do it for a shorter period at night. I tried letting them mate on their own in large terrariums, and the males kept their distance. When they didn't, they were eaten. Then I tried putting the males on the females back, and the females would reach back and try to grab the male. When the male was mounted on her back, the females made no effort other than to try to remove the male. In the past I've seen the females work with the males to get in the right position for mating.
> 
> I've had the females be receptive as early as two weeks by always by four weeks. You mentioned the females "going nutts." Well, I've had some do that at three weeks, four weeks, two months, three months. They never seem to be receptive. A couple of the males that I had tried and tried to connect but were not able to. Despite not being receptive, I think these females are all healthy. Some that molted to adults in November and December are still alive and have a hearty appetitie. They lay ooths but much less often that mated females do.
> 
> I have six wahlbergii nymphs that are pre and sub adults that a friend sent me to care for. (Same bloodline I think) I will be trying again if he doesn't want these back.


Ya me2 I didn't have to put the male on her back ... they all jump on them self .... the problem is after jumping on ....Male just wont mate ... till it become dinner .... I had 22 males to play with I'm sure i did enough test ..... the result is not all male is willing to mate they will jump tho .......


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## sinensispsyched (Jun 11, 2013)

SilentDeviL said:


> Ya me2 I didn't have to put the male on her back ... they all jump on them self .... the problem is after jumping on ....Male just wont mate ... till it become dinner .... I had 22 males to play with I'm sure i did enough test ..... the result is not all male is willing to mate they will jump tho .......


 YES!!! That is my exact problem!!


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## ismart (Jun 11, 2013)

sinensispsyched said:


> YES!!! That is my exact problem!!


I guess for future reference when obtaining this species, get a large amount to work with. I was given 18 L1 nymphs. 8 survived to adulthood. The others died off soon after i received them.


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## sinensispsyched (Jun 11, 2013)

ismart said:


> I guess for future reference when obtaining this species, get a large amount to work with. I was given 18 L1 nymphs. 8 survived to adulthood. The others died off soon after i received them.


I got 3 to begin with, one accidentally got squished (oops!) and the other two were kept until today.


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## SilentDeviL (Jun 11, 2013)

sinensispsyched said:


> I got 3 to begin with, one accidentally got squished (oops!) and the other two were kept until today.


Don't worrie Buddy Just mated my 5th Pair today and 2 more jumped on so hope i get 7 pair mated by end of this week lol .... and I'm sure I'll have enough Ooth to go around to Make P.W like Cero once again lol ... Just waiting for my first few hatch and enough 2nd gen i keep before selling any ooth .


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## sinensispsyched (Jun 12, 2013)

SilentDeviL said:


> Don't worrie Buddy Just mated my 5th Pair today and 2 more jumped on so hope i get 7 pair mated by end of this week lol .... and I'm sure I'll have enough Ooth to go around to Make P.W like Cero once again lol ... Just waiting for my first few hatch and enough 2nd gen i keep before selling any ooth .


Good luck Al!


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## ScienceGirl (Jun 14, 2013)

Oh my guys, I hope that the generations continue . . . And this is why "sustainable mantid breeding" is a good option. Keep the numbers strong in the wild, and if captivity fails, at least we still have that species of mantids living on earth.


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## ismart (Jun 24, 2013)

Just a quick update. I woke up this morning to one of my ooths hatching. So far only two nymphs. Hopefuuly there will be a bunch more when i come home from work later?


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## agent A (Jun 24, 2013)

ismart said:


> Just a quick update. I woke up this morning to one of my ooths hatching. So far only two nymphs. Hopefuuly there will be a bunch more when i come home from work later?


LikelyTheir parents hatched like that

A few when i woke up then dozens 2 hours later


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## sinensispsyched (Jun 24, 2013)

Lucky for you guys....


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