# Chinese mantis fell out of exoskeleton, will she pull through?



## 1stmantidman (Oct 13, 2016)

I've attached a gallery to help understand my description.

http://imgur.com/gallery/nKBC1

I woke today and noticed from my bed that my now L7? chinese molting as soon as I woke up. Got clothes on took a second look and I saw from my bed fall 11' down to the substrate, although she completed the molt. When I went up to check her out she had injuries - both of her back legs on the last segment bent upwards slightly. Her just growing wings were also crumpled but and hadnt reached the length of her body yet. The only thing i felt i could do was mist her somewhat directly. I wanted to see if she could move on her own, and she did. 2 more sprays and she started to climb the wall in trying to get back to the top. I was late for work so I had to leave, and I hoped she'd take it from there as best she could. Now I've got back from work and she had made it back to the top of the enclosure, hanging from her two front leg with the back legs still turned out. The wings grew towards the end of the body now but they still look ruffled. If she made it back to the top on her own, and is back hanging now, should her next molts fix these disfigurements? I'm assuming I should try to hand feed because she won't be able to capture prey? She's sorta teetering at every movement that sends a vibration to her enclosure, this is driving me crazy that she could fall at any minute again. I misted again so she could drink. What is the likely hood of surviving? 

@CosbyArt I have seen some of your replies and your experience with the _Tenodera Sinensis sp_. Have you had any injuries like this?


----------



## Digger (Oct 14, 2016)

MM. She'll be fine.  Her raptors look normal, so she'll be able to capture and hold prey.  I've had many Tenodera sinensis, over the years, who suffered malformed legs. They did just fine.  There's a good chance these two back legs may straighten out with successive molts.  Incidentally - misting is not medicine.  Too many shots just stress them out.  After a molt, the exoskeleton needs to dry, not remain moist.  A few mists ** immediately before **  the start of a molt can sometimes help if the environment is too dry.


----------



## CosbyArt (Oct 14, 2016)

@1stmantidman The wings are no problem at all, as they are merely for show in the case of pets (in the wild males use them to find a female). The two back walking legs though are a issue, but she seems able to climb to her lid and hang anyway so she's doing really great. In time she will be able to get more use from them too once she learns how to use what she has.

On the plus side she doesn't have any life threatening issues, and should be fine the rest of her life. As she now has her wings she is an L8 (and a adult), as such there are no more molts left. Which means she won't get worse (or stuck in a molt), or sadly better either.

I think she should easily be able to live a normal life, if anything I would recommend you place some more perches in her habitat so she can get around easier (and catch herself if she falls). Also in which case give her some more substrate to help cushion her if she falls, as she likely will especially until she learns her disabilities.

Hand feeding should not be needed as her raptorial forearms appear to be fine, if however those are not, then hand feeding would be needed. A easy check would to watch her when you feed her, as she molted today I would wait until tomorrow to do so, then just watch to ensure she can still catch her own prey.

Regarding my pets, sure I've had molt issues happen, but the strangest was a Griffin (Polyspilota griffinii). He molted to adulthood (I thought he had another molt left) and was in a 32oz deli cup and ran out of room. As a consequence of the lack of space, he dried with a permanent curve to his body, it didn't affect him but looked like he was always turning around.

Of course wings can be a common issue, if they are a problem for the mantis they can easily be clipped too. Leg molt issues aren't as common for me, but are especially if they fall during a molt. If they are a serve bend, and the mantis is a nymph, I have amputated them so they would successfully molt the next time (and not become trapped, and have a chance to regrow it) - although in adults they are forced to remain that way, as they are out of molts. In which case unless the deformed leg bothers the mantis, it is best to leave it be. In some cases the mantis will even bite off their own legs if it bothering them.



Digger said:


> ... There's a good chance these two back legs may straighten out with successive molts. ...


Not sure if you noticed the description or photos, but this is an adult mantis, and as such is out of molts.


----------



## 1stmantidman (Oct 14, 2016)

Wow, thanks so much for the replies. Kind of comforting to read about her ability to keep going, Ooths are still in her future! 

Also, so intriguing about her instar. She was so small when she arrived in mid to late august. I thought for sure images and research told me she was an L3 when i got her. She was still eating hydei when she got to me. I didnt start feeding crickets and larger flies and moths until she molted the first time in my care. Maybe and inch and a half - possibly 2 in size. Shes only molted twice in my care. This means she molted 5 times with the owner of the ooth?! I have missed most of her life lol

It is good to hear about the wing problem being harmless. I will watch if it interferes with anything too seriously, at which point i would clip them. For now ill see if maybe they straighten out on their own with time. Indeed i had planned to have her enclosure extragavantly prepared with artificial flowers and plants. I have all the materials including spanish moss, floral moss, plenty of coco substrate and even some fake cowtails i was going to trim and put inside. But once i saw her wing buds enlarging and swelling, followed by refusing food, i figured i wanted to get her in her new enclosure as fast as possible with the bare essentials. I hotglued plastic polywindow screening on 3 sides for climbing, and placed two large sticks inside with a substrate that could have been higher. Actually Thomas, it was your guide i followed for hotgluing the plastic window screening! ?

I will take a look when i get home today but even yesterday she was active, and walking around the lid... with 2 legs!! She does occasionally tend to use her forelegs to help her grip but obviously that is normal as she did such before the injury. So now the question is when will she be ready to mate?? And what can i look for in her behaviour to know when shes ready??


----------



## CosbyArt (Oct 14, 2016)

@1stmantidman Yes, she will lay ooths mated or not, so if you can get her mated you might as well so the ooths will hatch.  About the instar refer to the image by Piotr Naskrecki, I pasted at the end of this message - as it shows all the stages very well. Yes, and no on her life. They spend typically about half their life as a nymph, and the rest as an adult - so you have had her most of her life still.

Glad to hear the guide helped you then. Sounds like you will have her well setup to help her too.  

She will be ready to mate typically after 3 weeks as an adult, so in your case about November 3rd. Regarding their mating behavior the females typical call for males, arching their abdomen in a particular pose releasing pheromones. If you see the behavior or not by the date mentioned you should be fine.

The photo below is by Piotr Naskrecki


----------



## 1stmantidman (Oct 14, 2016)

Awesome she will lay ooths regardless so i might as well try to breed her. This is what i love about the hobby already, a lot of it is really convenient and easy to do especially when it comes to mantids! The only problem is all the misinformation out there on the internet, which has been my only roadblock in pursuing this hobby. Such as the countless sources labeling tenodera sinensis as a perfect 'beginner' species. Obviously that has become slightly incorrect, as other forum members and lesser known insect hobbyist sites claiming the opposite, that the species is infact intermediate level and kind of prone to complications. Would you agree with this? Also the whole ordeal about females devouring their mates, which is actually proven to be not that common in the wild. Do you feel the same dread i do when you mention your hobby to people and this is the first thing they love to exclaim? Only to be instantly bored by the educational lecture about that misconception, Lol. 

I did examine the picture, its just amazing because she looked JUST like the nymph labeled 3 or 4, and when she molted the first time, she looked like the 5 or 6 labeled nymphs. Appearance wise its like she skipped a few instars ?. 

About mating, i have read that when the female starts calling you can put her outside in a net cube and she will attract males. As we are nearing the fall/winter months here, is this not an option? Will i have to collaborate with forum members to acquire a male as i have seen done here? I actually was in pursuit of an adult male of an unknown species at work today. Bright light green and missing a back leg. I was hoping a sinensis or shield. All i had was a blurry picture someone took and hearsay about which direction he flew towards. In doing so, i came across a mantis! But it was no male, it was an adult female! Dark not light green, large but short abdomen. Thick chitin and large raptorials. I suspect a species of the _Rhombodera_ genus. But that is a thread for the identification section.


----------



## CosbyArt (Oct 14, 2016)

1stmantidman said:


> Awesome she will lay ooths regardless so i might as well try to breed her. This is what i love about the hobby already, a lot of it is really convenient and easy to do especially when it comes to mantids! The only problem is all the misinformation out there on the internet, which has been my only roadblock in pursuing this hobby. Such as the countless sources labeling tenodera sinensis as a perfect 'beginner' species. Obviously that has become slightly incorrect, as other forum members and lesser known insect hobbyist sites claiming the opposite, that the species is infact intermediate level and kind of prone to complications. Would you agree with this? Also the whole ordeal about females devouring their mates, which is actually proven to be not that common in the wild. Do you feel the same dread i do when you mention your hobby to people and this is the first thing they love to exclaim? Only to be instantly bored by the educational lecture about that misconception, Lol.
> 
> I did examine the picture, its just amazing because she looked JUST like the nymph labeled 3 or 4, and when she molted the first time, she looked like the 5 or 6 labeled nymphs. Appearance wise its like she skipped a few instars ?.
> 
> About mating, i have read that when the female starts calling you can put her outside in a net cube and she will attract males. As we are nearing the fall/winter months here, is this not an option? Will i have to collaborate with forum members to acquire a male as i have seen done here? I actually was in pursuit of an adult male of an unknown species at work today. Bright light green and missing a back leg. I was hoping a sinensis or shield. All i had was a blurry picture someone took and hearsay about which direction he flew towards. In doing so, i came across a mantis! But it was no male, it was an adult female! Dark not light green, large but short abdomen. Thick chitin and large raptorials. I suspect a species of the _Rhombodera_ genus. But that is a thread for the identification section.


Labeling the Chinese mantis as a beginner is a fallacy, they do need a experienced keeper for best results. The species though is the most common (usually only) ooths sold at garden centers and such so it is thought to be a beginner. In nature perhaps they are, but for keepers they aren't. See their caresheet and the difficultly level at the end of the *Introduction* section.  

That people do, I had one on Tuesday say I am wasting my time with mantises the girls always eat all the males.



Anymore I just tell me if that is true how are there any mantises still left? Usually they had enough at that point, and very few care to hear any real information. In my experience though I've only had it happen three times ever in my mantises, and twice was from wild mantises I captured while they were already breeding. The wild ones refused to let go, and the next morning not much was left of the males - although it has only happened even then from very fair mating pairs I've caught.

Although rare, some mantises are said to skip instar stages. Perhaps yours did as well.

You can do the outside cage to attract a mate, just do so a few hours before sunset. Once the sun sets and the temperatures drop, then bring her back inside hopefully with a friend. It is getting late in the year, but depending on your temps it can still be done (It reached 70F here in my area today). In three weeks time though I doubt it will be a possibility, and in that case your best/only option is to track down a male on the forum classifieds.

Strange tale of the mantis at work. I'm not sure where that is, but it is possible to get some various species occasionally from imported plants and such. If it was a wild one in your area the chances for a Rhombodera species is about 0% in the US. Indeed start a new thread, perhaps someone can ID it for you.


----------



## Digger (Oct 15, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> @1stmantidman The wings are no problem at all, as they are merely for show in the case of pets (in the wild males use them to find a female). The two back walking legs though are a issue, but she seems able to climb to her lid and hang anyway so she's doing really great. In time she will be able to get more use from them too once she learns how to use what she has.
> 
> On the plus side she doesn't have any life threatening issues, and should be fine the rest of her life. As she now has her wings she is an L8 (and a adult), as such there are no more molts left. Which means she won't get worse (or stuck in a molt), or sadly better either.
> 
> ...


Ah. Then, of course, we live out life chasing crickets as a partial cripple. " Ello there mister cricket. Won't you come a lidl closah to elp an ol cripple mantis? Ay, there's a good cricket......"


----------



## CosbyArt (Oct 15, 2016)

Digger said:


> Ah. Then, of course, we live out life chasing crickets as a partial cripple. " Ello there mister cricket. Won't you come a lidl closah to elp an ol cripple mantis? Ay, there's a good cricket......"


Indeed.  If nothing else use tweezers to cripple the crickets jumping legs, and it will be more of a fair hunt.


----------



## 1stmantidman (Oct 15, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> Although rare, some mantises are said to skip instar stages. Perhaps yours did as well.


Oh wow, this is the first I've heard of this. What a fascinating concept. It just seemed so drastic. Appearance wise she seemed to go from L3 to Adult in two molts. 



CosbyArt said:


> You can do the outside cage to attract a mate, just do so a few hours before sunset. Once the sun sets and the temperatures drop, then bring her back inside hopefully with a friend. It is getting late in the year, but depending on your temps it can still be done (It reached 70F here in my area today). In three weeks time though I doubt it will be a possibility, and in that case your best/only option is to track down a male on the forum classifieds.


I live in Utah currently, I guess if i got really lucky I could see if it's possible. 



CosbyArt said:


> Strange tale of the mantis at work. I'm not sure where that is, but it is possible to get some various species occasionally from imported plants and such. If it was a wild one in your area the chances for a Rhombodera species is about 0% in the US. Indeed start a new thread, perhaps someone can ID it for you.


Ah forgive my ignorance! Another forum member ID'ed her as a Mantis Religiosa. She looks pregnant too.


----------



## 1stmantidman (Oct 15, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> Indeed.  If nothing else use tweezers to cripple the crickets jumping legs, and it will be more of a fair hunt.


Not needed    (for now). A grasshopper was a bit too fast and healthy for her right now. I wanted to test her abilities by herself. Jumping legs still attached in all. The grasshopper was just too active to chase down, so I removed it and placed the largest cricket I keep out of my current 7 in with her. She has adopted a new tactic, I call it the "baby steps stalk".  :lol:  I would try to watch, but her 'patience is key, play it smart with injuries' deal was taking a little while. I went to the kitchen and back, after sweeping the floor. She had already removed the crickets head and was holding it in one arm, and starting on the insides of the body with the other arm.

She has also started using the less damaged back leg to grip more. It almost looks like it's in the correct position when she holds it like this. The wings on this side of the leg have also sorted themselves out. They are almost completely flush up against the body like they are supposed to be. It is just now the opposite side with the leg that has a decent curve to it, and the corresponding wings which are not covering the body and almost curled inward almost like a paper towel roll.


----------



## CosbyArt (Oct 15, 2016)

1stmantidman said:


> Not needed    (for now). A grasshopper was a bit too fast and healthy for her right now. I wanted to test her abilities by herself. Jumping legs still attached in all. The grasshopper was just too active to chase down, so I removed it and placed the largest cricket I keep out of my current 7 in with her. She has adopted a new tactic, I call it the "baby steps stalk".  :lol:  I would try to watch, but her 'patience is key, play it smart with injuries' deal was taking a little while. I went to the kitchen and back, after sweeping the floor. She had already removed the crickets head and was holding it in one arm, and starting on the insides of the body with the other arm.
> 
> She has also started using the less damaged back leg to grip more. It almost looks like it's in the correct position when she holds it like this. The wings on this side of the leg have also sorted themselves out. They are almost completely flush up against the body like they are supposed to be. It is just now the opposite side with the leg that has a decent curve to it, and the corresponding wings which are not covering the body and almost curled inward almost like a paper towel roll.


Glad to hear her arms work fine (a major relief), and she's adapted a new technique already to get her prey.  Amazing she is already getting some use out of her damaged rear legs, quicker than I expected. Well glad the wings have sorted themselves out some too. Great, with all things considered, she is doing so well already.


----------



## 1stmantidman (Oct 17, 2016)

Update: I have done some improving on her enclosure such as including more objects covered with moss, added artificial flowers, and plenty more substrate. Everything is softer and more compact, with less height if a fall were to occur. If she were to fall, it would be a couple inches at most, everything is "baby proof" as I like to think of it. ?

https://imgur.com/gallery/fz4aU

I have deduced that the reason for her fall and subsequent injuries is probably due to the unforgiving aluminum mesh that is her enclosure lid. I noticed her lack of confidence in regards to movement on the lid when I first put her in the enclosure. I should have done something about it at the time and I did not. It seemed every movement took great strength, and she had trouble properly unhooking her tarsi from the screen. This combined with my errors of over-misting as an inexperienced keeper of this species (and mantids in general) meant she was soft during the fall, and the fall itself caused by an improper gripping surface. The aluminum is just an absolute No-Go for next time. I have since manually removed the aluminum and hotglued the same black plastic windowing that lines the walls of the enclosure. She prefers this material 10x over. This material is clearly much more comfortable for her and her mobility is alarmingly fluid. If someone hadn't known of her injuries before watching her explore her enclosure, they would probably think she was a healthy mantis. Thanks for the replies both of you. Whats next for me is getting to the center of the skipping instars mystery. Intriguing it is.


----------



## CosbyArt (Oct 18, 2016)

@1stmantidman Looks like she should be set in her new habitat with minimal issues. Great to hear she is still making improvements too with her condition.  

Seems there have been some keepers that have issues with the aluminum mesh, personally it has been uncommon in my mantids, but it is good to see you altered it as needed. I started using it myself with my wild caught mantids as some (especially males) like to try biting through the mesh the first day or so and the plastic/fiberglass mesh is easy for them to bite through (I've had several close calls with wild mantids before going to aluminum).

Perhaps in those cases it would be good to layer the plastic/fiberglass mesh over the aluminum to prevent the problems, and still have the protection if needed.


----------



## 1stmantidman (Oct 18, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> @1stmantidman
> 
> Perhaps in those cases it would be good to layer the plastic/fiberglass mesh over the aluminum to prevent the problems, and still have the protection if needed.


Good idea!


----------



## crucis (Oct 23, 2016)

Glad to know your mantis came out of that accident without serious injuries!

I had a similar incident happen during a tenodera female's final molt; the exoskeleton's grip failed as she was drying herself and she wound up with a visibly curved upper body and some awkwardness in forearm position / movement (among some other minor issues). Her injuries straightened up significantly with time, and she learnt to move as well as hunt at a slight angle.

I just wanna say, keep positive!^^ If your mantis is kept well-nourished and comfortable, she will most certainly make further improvements as she settles into adulthood. At the very least she'll be a more robust, strong, and confident individual in a week or two, and have picked up more skills to compensate for the mismolt.


----------

