# This is insane



## Rick (Sep 18, 2009)

In the last week and a half I have had over half of my mantids drop dead. They start by hanging from only two legs before dropping to the bottom of the container dead. I am not doing anything different than I normally do. I disinfected my water sprayer just in case but that was several days ago. I thought it may have been from feeding wild caught insects but I always do that and half of the dead ones didn't eat any wild caught food so that rules that out. I can't think of any other reason. Temps are good as well. Last night my female creobroter who was due to lay her first ooth any day now dropped dead. She went from perfect health eating well to dead in two days. I've always had random deaths every now and then but this is different.This kind of stuff really ticks me off! &lt;_&lt;


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 18, 2009)

hummm, maybe disinfect the cages, if the water was bad, and u respray, they could be picking it back up from on the container, I don't think that is it though, but other than the work, it can't hurt. Didn't someone else post on here kinda the same thing happening?


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## massaman (Sep 18, 2009)

yeah i had one chinese mantis fall over dead one day she was eating and everything and the next day she was on the bottom of her cage dead and thought maybe it was rough attempts at mating from a male mantis but she showed no physical signs of anything wrong from the other mantis and dont know had few more drop dead as well not as many as other people but think some just died maybe cause of temp fluxuations or decrease in humidity but there is so many factors that I just cant put my finger on any of it!


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## ismart (Sep 18, 2009)

Wow! That is really strange. Do you have any ventialtion issues maybe? What about those room air fresheners? I hear some can contain pesticides.  I cant seem to recall where i read that though?


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## Christian (Sep 18, 2009)

Did you use crickets or freshly bought plants?


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## Rick (Sep 18, 2009)

Christian said:


> Did you use crickets or freshly bought plants?


Neither. Blue bottle flies which are fed honey and wild caught moths/butterflies for a few of the mantids.



ismart said:


> Wow! That is really strange. Do you have any ventialtion issues maybe? What about those room air fresheners? I hear some can contain pesticides.  I cant seem to recall where i read that though?


Most are in 32 oz deli cups which I always use. No air freshners or anything is sprayed in the house.

I am going to put all of my containers into the dishwasher with a little added bleach and then use paper towels instead of moss and see what happens.


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## revmdn (Sep 18, 2009)

This may sound crazy, but how about doing a radon check or some other possible toxin. Just can't think of anything else myself.


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## Borya (Sep 18, 2009)

Did you use fumigator or something like that?

Are there any plantations near your house that could have been sprayed with insecticide?


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## Rick (Sep 18, 2009)

revmdn said:


> This may sound crazy, but how about doing a radon check or some other possible toxin. Just can't think of anything else myself.


Radon really is not prevelant in my area. I've thought about it.


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## Katnapper (Sep 18, 2009)

Different food for the feeders? Maybe the wild caught feeders were exposed to some kind of pesticide before you caught them? Are the affected ones all the same age? I don't know either.


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## Rick (Sep 18, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Different food for the feeders? Maybe the wild caught feeders were exposed to some kind of pesticide before you caught them? Are the affected ones all the same age? I don't know either.


Only about half of those who died ate wild caught food so I don't think that is it. Not all the same age. Adults, nymphs, etc. As far as different food for the feeders I guess I can change it. The flies are fed locally made raw honey. I can't think of anything better. I have some store bought honey I could try.


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## Katnapper (Sep 18, 2009)

Rick said:


> Only about half of those who died ate wild caught food so I don't think that is it. Not all the same age. Adults, nymphs, etc. As far as different food for the feeders I guess I can change it. The flies are fed locally made raw honey. I can't think of anything better. I have some store bought honey I could try.


It would seem the local raw honey would be better than store bought... but I guess if you're down to trying anything.....

Washing your hands with a different soap? Walking through pesticide-laden grass on your shoes? I'm grasping at straws too trying to think....

Maybe just some odd coincidence?

Not handling them enough? (Had to throw that in there...  )


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## Christian (Sep 18, 2009)

Oh, the honey!

In the US the use of certain antibiotics and insecticides is allowed due to the occurrence of the _Varroa_ mite and _Nosema_ protozoans. Maybe the stuff that your beekeeper used is toxic for mantids. Usually it should be toxic for flies as well if it's toxic for mantids, but maybe the accumulation by eating many flies may pass the threshold. I don't know for sure, it is just a guess. Over here, I try to get only Germany honey, as those chemicals are prohibited (but not in the European Union, so most honey you get in the supermarket isn't safe for sure - I didn't have problems so far, though.).


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## ABbuggin (Sep 18, 2009)

It could be the honey, but I'm not sure. I use store bought honey and I've never had any ill effects. Maybe the additives are farmer specific?


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## ismart (Sep 18, 2009)

You know it could be the moss? I had a freind that used sphagnum moss in his frog terrarium. All the frogs were dead in a week. We later found out from the pet store they recieved a bad batch of moss.


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## Rick (Sep 18, 2009)

About the honey. I have noticed that most of my flies die within a week of hatching. I figured it was just the flies because they were from a batch where half of them had hatched in the mail. I just figured they were weak from being near hatching and then being stuck in the fridge. I am going to switch the honey right now.


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## bassist (Sep 18, 2009)

Rick said:


> About the honey. I have noticed that most of my flies die within a week of hatching. I figured it was just the flies because they were from a batch where half of them had hatched in the mail. I just figured they were weak from being near hatching and then being stuck in the fridge. I am going to switch the honey right now.


Honey might be the problem then mine live about 2-4 weeks even if they do hatch in transit.


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## Rick (Sep 18, 2009)

bassist said:


> Honey might be the problem then mine live about 2-4 weeks even if they do hatch in transit.


Mine normally do too but I just figured these guys were weak from what I mentioned before. I did have a different batch that hatched two days ago and now most of those are either dead or staying down at the bottom instead of crawling around. Hmmmmm I had a batch hatch yesterday and now I just gave them different honey. Will see what happens from now on.


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## ABbuggin (Sep 18, 2009)

bassist said:


> Honey might be the problem then mine live about 2-4 weeks even if they do hatch in transit.


Same here, unless they are eaten by my gongylus first. :lol:


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## Orin (Sep 18, 2009)

Hopefully it was the honey, I've never had any troubles like that but I've used primarily blattids for food and have never used honey. I did have a friend whose blattid colonies started dying for no reason, which may have saved his life since he found out it was caused by carbon monoxide emissions from his furnace.


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## Rick (Sep 18, 2009)

Orin said:


> Hopefully it was the honey, I've never had any troubles like that but I've used primarily blattids for food and have never used honey. I did have a friend whose blattid colonies started dying for no reason, which may have saved his life since he found out it was caused by carbon monoxide emissions from his furnace.


Now that is interesting. I do have an alarm!

What other foods do you guys feed to flies? I thought about broth but sure since it is mostly salt.


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## d17oug18 (Sep 18, 2009)

i fed mine fish flakes to see if they would eat it and they did, ive also tried molasses(just cause) and that had no ill effects either.


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 18, 2009)

Rick said:


> Now that is interesting. I do have an alarm!What other foods do you guys feed to flies? I thought about broth but sure since it is mostly salt.


I feed mine powdered buttermilk (though I think that powdered milk would do fine) and sugar. The flies seem to enjoy it and it doesn't make a sticky mess!

I very much doubt that it is the honey, though, since each mantis is exposed to very much tinier doses than the bees were, and very few of them die when a substance like coumaphos is used in their hive (if a lot died, there would be no point in using it, would there?!).

Since your BBs are dying earlier than anticipated, the problem could be there. Changing their food will give you a better handle on that.

When did the last ones die? I hope that your plague is over. Good luck, mate.


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## Cosmic (Sep 18, 2009)

It's abit out there but nobodies gone down the avenue, Rick do you have a cat or dog?


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## Katnapper (Sep 18, 2009)

I've also used powdered milk and powdered sugar mixed together... but I don't think it does as well as the honey for me.


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## ismart (Sep 18, 2009)

I just use sugar-water with ground up bee pollen. This works really good for me. I have not had any issues thus far! I don't use honey at all.


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## AmandaLynn (Sep 18, 2009)

Cosmicbug said:


> It's abit out there but nobodies gone down the avenue, Rick do you have a cat or dog?


Are you using something new for fleas and ticks? I use 'Advantage' on my dogs, and haven't had any problems so far.


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## 3.1415926 (Sep 18, 2009)

Pesticides probaly drifted over from a neighbors yard.


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## Rick (Sep 18, 2009)

10dor1fro32 said:


> Pesticides probaly drifted over from a neighbors yard.


Half of the mantids didn't eat any wild food.

I have a dog and cat but the cats get no flea treatment and the dog only gets it once every month but he isn't in this side of the house.

I find it interesting some of you feed powdered food since I know flies have sponge like mouth parts. I have never had a problem with honey and it works best for me. If it is honey it would have to be this kind.


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## bassist (Sep 18, 2009)

AmandaLynn said:


> Are you using something new for fleas and ticks? I use 'Advantage' on my dogs, and haven't had any problems so far.


My cats get advantaged every month or so as well they never go near the mantids though.


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## massaman (Sep 19, 2009)

I give my dog a pill every 10th of the month to control fleas and ticks maybe there could be traces of something in the air maybe dust or something thats killing the mantis or something!


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## Rick (Sep 19, 2009)

massaman said:


> I give my dog a pill every 10th of the month to control fleas and ticks maybe there could be traces of something in the air maybe dust or something thats killing the mantis or something!


I'm ruling out that possibility because if that was the case it would have happened a long time ago and the dog rarely comes into the room.


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## wero626 (Sep 19, 2009)

Man sorry to hear that.Its been happening alot lately with me and my bro they just die for no apparent reason there healty eating good then boom outta nowhere thinking maybe the season or something?All good opinions on the matter though very interesting..


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## superfreak (Sep 19, 2009)

sometimes they just die for no reason............   :lol: :lol:


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## Rick (Sep 19, 2009)

superfreak said:


> sometimes they just die for no reason............   :lol: :lol:


Yep. My own words. However, I never have ten die in a week. &lt;_&lt;


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 19, 2009)

Have the deaths stopped now, Rick?


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## Rick (Sep 19, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Have the deaths stopped now, Rick?


As of right now they have but it has only been a day or so since the last one. Today all containers were washed in the dishwasher with a bit of bleach added to the soap. Moss has been replaced with paper towels and a new batch of flies are on a different honey. We will see.


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## superfreak (Sep 20, 2009)

how close are your neighbours on that side of the house? do they use pesticides? hope it works out ok.


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## Rick (Sep 20, 2009)

superfreak said:


> how close are your neighbours on that side of the house? do they use pesticides? hope it works out ok.


That's not it. Old ladies on one side and back. Neither do anything in their yards. House on other side is emtpy and the guy in the other house behind me rarely goes into his yard let alone even mow it. Houses are not that close either.


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## revmdn (Sep 20, 2009)

Maybe it was one of those suicide packs  :lol:


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## Rick (Sep 20, 2009)

revmdn said:


> Maybe it was one of those suicide packs  :lol:


 :lol: Maybe one of them was the cult leader and organized the whole thing. &lt;_&lt;


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## jacksun (Sep 20, 2009)

Any evidence of grape kool-aid?


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## sbugir (Sep 20, 2009)

Plus, if it was pesticides, (Rick, i think i saw your box turtle thread and you keep em outside?) wouldn't the turtles suffer? I don't know what pesticides do to turtles, for the fact that i keep mine inside, but i can only imagine that they would croak it.


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## Emile.Wilson (Sep 20, 2009)

Everyone look out for Jim Jones.


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## Rick (Sep 20, 2009)

lemmiwinks said:


> Plus, if it was pesticides, (Rick, i think i saw your box turtle thread and you keep em outside?) wouldn't the turtles suffer? I don't know what pesticides do to turtles, for the fact that i keep mine inside, but i can only imagine that they would croak it.


They do live outside but then again I know pesticides are not a concern here unless it came in on that locally made honey.


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## spicey (Sep 20, 2009)

I bought some house fly pupae from another forum member a few weeks back. I had difficulty hatching them, only a few hatched from the first batch I tried, and they all died before I fed them to any of my mantids. I set up another cup of flies and only 15 or 20 hatched out of it. The flies were fed honey, and I kept them with plenty of water on their sponge to drink from. They started dying after a couple of days as well. I fed them to 5 of my mantids, and some of the honey I was using as well. Unfortunately, 4 of the 5 mantids died within 48 hours after eating those flies and honey. The 5th one died soon afterward. I was thinking I got a bad batch of flies, so didn't try hatching any more of the pupae. Now that I read this thread, I'm thinking maybe it's the honey? Either way, I've lost a lot of mantids in a short time recently too. (and the only thing I had done differently was to feed those flies to them).


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## sbugir (Sep 20, 2009)

Rick said:


> They do live outside but then again I know pesticides are not a concern here unless it came in on that locally made honey.


Yeah, I was just trying to rule out pesticides  , I wouldn't think they'd use pesticides in honey... I give my flies locally made raw honey too. I guess it was just bad honey or bad flies  that's really disappointing though. Sorry about the loss


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## Rick (Sep 20, 2009)

lemmiwinks said:


> Yeah, I was just trying to rule out pesticides  , I wouldn't think they'd use pesticides in honey... I give my flies locally made raw honey too. I guess it was just bad honey or bad flies  that's really disappointing though. Sorry about the loss


Christain explained how the honey could be contaminated. Or the flies I was using may have been bad. I have had no more deaths.


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 20, 2009)

If I can remember tomorrow I will talk to my bee expert and ask him some questions on the honey subject. Btw Rick, I never feed mine honey, a dry mixture I make myself and they do fine on it, it does have honey powder and bee pollen grind fine in it and they seem to do ok with it, next time u order, remind me and I will send u a sample.


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## bassist (Sep 21, 2009)

spicey said:


> I bought some house fly pupae from another forum member a few weeks back. I had difficulty hatching them, only a few hatched from the first batch I tried, and they all died before I fed them to any of my mantids. I set up another cup of flies and only 15 or 20 hatched out of it. The flies were fed honey, and I kept them with plenty of water on their sponge to drink from. They started dying after a couple of days as well. I fed them to 5 of my mantids, and some of the honey I was using as well. Unfortunately, 4 of the 5 mantids died within 48 hours after eating those flies and honey. The 5th one died soon afterward. I was thinking I got a bad batch of flies, so didn't try hatching any more of the pupae. Now that I read this thread, I'm thinking maybe it's the honey? Either way, I've lost a lot of mantids in a short time recently too. (and the only thing I had done differently was to feed those flies to them).


No that was a bad batch of flies I got a few from the same source and I did not feed any to my mantids seeing as how the flies where dying.


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## Rick (Sep 21, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> If I can remember tomorrow I will talk to my bee expert and ask him some questions on the honey subject. Btw Rick, I never feed mine honey, a dry mixture I make myself and they do fine on it, it does have honey powder and bee pollen grind fine in it and they seem to do ok with it, next time u order, remind me and I will send u a sample.


How do flies eat dry food? Don't they have sponge like mouth parts?


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## Katnapper (Sep 21, 2009)

Rick said:


> How do flies eat dry food? Don't they have sponge like mouth parts?


I think they regurgitate on it, then suck it up. :lol:


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## spicey (Sep 21, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> I think they regurgitate on it, then suck it up. :lol:


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## Rick (Sep 21, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> I think they regurgitate on it, then suck it up. :lol:


Seems like they would be dehydrated. I will stick with honey just not the same kind as before.


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## Katnapper (Sep 21, 2009)

Rick said:


> Seems like they would be dehydrated. I will stick with honey just not the same kind as before.


I tried a powdered sugar and powdered milk dry mixture, then would mist them just like I do the mantids. But they still seem to go for the honey more. Seems like they like it better... and I feel it probably is more nutritious (on what basis? My own thoughts only.)


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## jameslongo (Sep 21, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> I tried a powdered sugar and powdered milk dry mixture, then would mist them just like I do the mantids. But they still seem to go for the honey more. Seems like they like it better... and I feel it probably is more nutritious (on what basis? My own thoughts only.)


Wouldn't you prefer honey over powdered milk?


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## andy bailey (Sep 21, 2009)

Er...honey? I`m surprised even humans are eating it! Colony Collapse Disorder anyone? Pesticides are killing bees off...especially in America, where Aussie bees are sent by the millions every year to replace all the dead ones!


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## bassist (Sep 21, 2009)

bodhi said:


> Er...honey? I`m surprised even humans are eating it! Colony Collapse Disorder anyone? Pesticides are killing bees off...especially in America, where Aussie bees are sent by the millions every year to replace all the dead ones!


And?


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 21, 2009)

I talked to the bee guy, he said only things he could think of is they are using something called bt or tb on the corn and bean crops to make the insects not like the pollen, but from what he understood, it did not hurt them, just made them not like it. Also the only other thing is if the honey gets old it will ferment and that could affect the flies. One more note, if the honey gets old, on top of the fermenting, it can get some parasites in it to, he said to change it frequently to keep it clean and not to use old honey, he said very unlikely to have something bad in the honey, but not impossible.


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## spicey (Sep 21, 2009)

bassist said:


> No that was a bad batch of flies I got a few from the same source and I did not feed any to my mantids seeing as how the flies where dying.


I wish I hadn't fed any to mine. I think blue bottles will work better for me anyway, but by the time I order the spikes, then pupate and eclose, that could take almost 2 weeks.....I wish someone could ship a cup of live flies to me.


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## bassist (Sep 21, 2009)

spicey said:


> I wish I hadn't fed any to mine. I think blue bottles will work better for me anyway, but by the time I order the spikes, then pupate and eclose, that could take almost 2 weeks.....I wish someone could ship a cup of live flies to me.


Just order pupae I'm giving a shot at maggots this week from grubco though.


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## massaman (Sep 21, 2009)

maybe carbon monoxide


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 21, 2009)

I talked to the bee guy, he said only things he could think of is they are using something called bt or tb on the corn and bean crops to make the insects not like the pollen, but from what he understood, it did not hurt them, just made them not like it. Also the only other thing is if the honey gets old it will ferment and that could affect the flies. One more note, if the honey gets old, on top of the fermenting, it can get some parasites in it to, he said to change it frequently to keep it clean and not to use old honey, he said very unlikely to have something bad in the honey, but not impossible.

One of the most interesting posts yet, Rebecca. Biotech BT corn and cotton are modified to repel insects like weevils by producing bacteria. You can find plenty of documentation for and against its use, particularly in regards to bees, but Australia has been using this for years and doesn't have CCD. No one, though, has even suggested that this bacterium lives on in the honey.

Personally, I have never seen honey so old that it had started fermenting, and I image that it would be visible and sniffable if it did.


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## Rick (Sep 21, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> I talked to the bee guy, he said only things he could think of is they are using something called bt or tb on the corn and bean crops to make the insects not like the pollen, but from what he understood, it did not hurt them, just made them not like it. Also the only other thing is if the honey gets old it will ferment and that could affect the flies. One more note, if the honey gets old, on top of the fermenting, it can get some parasites in it to, he said to change it frequently to keep it clean and not to use old honey, he said very unlikely to have something bad in the honey, but not impossible.One of the most interesting posts yet, Rebecca. Biotech BT corn and cotton are modified to repel insects like weevils by producing bacteria. You can find plenty of documentation for and against its use, particularly in regards to bees, but Australia has been using this for years and doesn't have CCD. No one, though, has even suggested that this bacterium lives on in the honey.
> 
> Personally, I have never seen honey so old that it had started fermenting, and I image that it would be visible and sniffable if it did.


Thanks Phil. This jar of honey I have had all summer. It sits on the counter. I have never had honey go bad at least to me. I am still eating it but I do use a knife after the knife has been used for peanut butter before the honey. I switched to a new store bought container and have had no more issues.


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## Katnapper (Sep 21, 2009)

Rick said:


> Thanks Phil. This jar of honey I have had all summer. It sits on the counter. I have never had honey go bad at least to me. I am still eating it but I do use a knife after the knife has been used for peanut butter before the honey. I switched to a new store bought container and have had no more issues.


Did you use the same knife to spread honey on the cages? Maybe some of the mantids had peanut allergies! :lol:


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## Rick (Sep 21, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Did you use the same knife to spread honey on the cages? Maybe some of the mantids had peanut allergies! :lol:


No. I use a syringe.


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 21, 2009)

Yea, I have had honey do that though, I get on a health kick and open honey and then it sits there till the cows come home, next time I look at it, it is either hard or weird looking!


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 21, 2009)

Also reading some more post here about Spiecy saying they wished they hadnt fed honey to the flies, He also said he just uses sugar water, doesnt see why u would feed a fly honey! I of course told him I didnt either :lol: He said feeding them bee pollen is good though because it has protein in it, and I told him I feed mine with honey powder with bee pollen and named some other things I put in it and he seemed to agree that was good. But for short time lives like a day or so, sugar water should be fine.


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## Rick (Sep 21, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Also reading some more post here about Spiecy saying they wished they hadnt fed honey to the flies, He also said he just uses sugar water, doesnt see why u would feed a fly honey! I of course told him I didnt either :lol: He said feeding them bee pollen is good though because it has protein in it, and I told him I feed mine with honey powder with bee pollen and named some other things I put in it and he seemed to agree that was good. But for short time lives like a day or so, sugar water should be fine.


I think honey is the best choice. Look how it is made. You get the nutrional value and it can hydrate the flies as well.


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## Rick (Sep 22, 2009)

Well seems the problem is not resolved. A wild caught s. carolina nymph I found Sunday died in the same way. She did eat one bluebottle fly but it was from the new batch. Looks like she was starting to molt as the skin seems lifted or swollen off of the body around the abdomen. This could just be the shock of captivity. I think I need to look at my water source again and maybe do something different.


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## ABbuggin (Sep 22, 2009)

It may be your water. I buy distilled water from Wal-Mart for .70 a gallon. Lasts me about 2 weeks and it insures nothing is in the water.


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## Rick (Sep 22, 2009)

ABbuggin said:


> It may be your water. I buy distilled water from Wal-Mart for .70 a gallon. Lasts me about 2 weeks and it insures nothing is in the water.


The water I use is filtered from the fridge and then I add reptisafe on top of that. I am thinking there is still too much stuff in the water or my sprayer is contaminated somehow. I have always used this technique without any issues but I guess I will try the other water.


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## Rick (Sep 25, 2009)

I had received two mantids yesterday. Both arrived ok and ate a fly each. This morning one of them has lost all use of his four rear legs. Now this could be stress from shipping but I don't think that it is. The other one is ok so far. Getting fed up. It has to be my water as that is the only constant. Today I am going to get some distilled water.


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## Christian (Sep 25, 2009)

I would move temporarily out and call the Feng shui zenzei, mate! I wouldn't drink that water either...


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## Rick (Sep 25, 2009)

Christian said:


> I would move temporarily out and call the Feng shui zenzei, mate! I wouldn't drink that water either...


I drink tons of it &lt;_&lt; They do treat it with chlorine twice a year and my wife told me they said not to use it in aquaria. I figured since I treated it it would be fine. I have only lived here a year and a half so that may not have been long enough to use the water with many mantids during the times that they change the treatment method.


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## wero626 (Sep 25, 2009)

Well ive been using honey for my flies and that seems to work i drip a little on the side of the container so it drips down and the flies love it they all stay in that one spot and suck the honey...Never used bee pollen though very interesting gotta try it nymphs are harder to care for as there small and many things could happen so might just be natural causes..I also heard its bad to when you give them fausite water.But i still use it and nothing has happen to my mantids there all healthy so i rarely think its that..


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## Rick (Oct 2, 2009)

Seems I have fixed whatever the issue was. I disinfected everything; containers, foreceps, foam plugs, etc. Got new batches of flies and changed their food source. I also changed from moss to paper towels. I admit you guys that use paper towels were right, they do work better. Everyone seems ok now.


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## Katnapper (Oct 2, 2009)

Glad to hear it, Rick.


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## ismart (Oct 2, 2009)

Rick said:


> Seems I have fixed whatever the issue was. I disinfected everything; containers, foreceps, foam plugs, etc. Got new batches of flies and changed their food source. I also changed from moss to paper towels. I admit you guys that use paper towels were right, they do work better. Everyone seems ok now.


Don't Just use any paper towel! Use Bounty paper towel, it is the most absorbent! I feel like a spokes person for Bounty right now! :lol: 



Katnapper said:


> Glad to hear it, Rick.


+1!


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