# Malaysia shield mantis vs Indonesia shield mantis



## yen_saw (Jul 14, 2009)

It is still a long way to go but there is this one distinct difference between the currently available shield mantis and the one collected from Malaysia which i like to share here.

There is not dark band (see circle) in any of the Indonesia shield mantis







and this is the one collected in Malaysia. All 9 nymphs collected have dark color band on it. this pic was taken while i was in Malaysia it has now molted into pre-sub or subadult and the band is more distinct now.






Anyone currently keeping the shield mantis please help me check if there is a color band on your shield mantis. As far as i know the current shield mantis in distribution lack this color band and I just want to be sure it is not an isolated case. If the real Rh. basalis has color band on it I really doubt the current shield mantis in culture is Rh. basalis. I am sure there will be more differences noted once the batch collected in Malaysia grow into adult. Will add into this thread if i can find more.


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## ABbuggin (Jul 14, 2009)

Nice to know.


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## ismart (Jul 14, 2009)

Very interesting! I will check my stock when i get home from work.


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## hibiscusmile (Jul 14, 2009)

Heres mine Yen, I have others from another source, but they are only first and 2nd instar, so too little.


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## yen_saw (Jul 14, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Heres mine Yen, I have others from another source, but they are only first and 2nd instar, so too little.


Thanks Rebecca for the photo.

Here is the additional photos of subadult female collected from Malaysia.


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## Christian (Jul 15, 2009)

The intensity of the band may vary. It's not a good indicator of specific difference.


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## yen_saw (Jul 15, 2009)

Christian said:


> The intensity of the band may vary. It's not a good indicator of specific difference.


Ah ok. Is it possible that the band dissappear all together but still within the same species? So far none of the Indonesia batch that i know of has any band on it, while the collected batch constantly has color band.


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## hibiscusmile (Jul 15, 2009)

So what did u think of mine Yen? where did u think it from?


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## yen_saw (Jul 15, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> So what did u think of mine Yen? where did u think it from?


Looks like the one you have is similar to the batch i started back in 2007. i went back and check all the photos from that batch and none of them has the color band too. Not sure where you get them from but probably that's tha same batch Rebecca. Have you had a chance to look at other shield you got from other sources? Is that adult female on your pic? The shield appear to be slightly rounder too on the wild collected batch, will have to look closer when they turn adult. I am hoping all 9 nymphs there belongs to the same species i have 4 male and 5 female (yay!).


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## ABbuggin (Jul 15, 2009)

What stage are yours Yen? I'd like to get these guys again.


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## PhilinYuma (Jul 16, 2009)

I have eight shields from your stock, Yen. The five adults are orange on the ventral surface of the thorax, with no black band, and the three subs are completely green.


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## yen_saw (Jul 16, 2009)

ABbuggin said:


> What stage are yours Yen? I'd like to get these guys again.


I have some subadult and presubadult, they have all molted 2-3 times since collected in foothill of Cameron Highlands. Finger crossed that the batch breed another generation for me.


PhilinYuma said:


> I have eight shields from your stock, Yen. The five adults are orange on the ventral surface of the thorax, with no black band, and the three subs are completely green.


Thanks Phil for the feedback. The current batch in the hobby does lack of the color band. I am keeping at least a pair of each batch for comparison in the future. Will let everyone know if i can find more.


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## revmdn (Jul 16, 2009)

The colors of green almost blue are stunning Yen. Let me know when they started a second generation.


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## yen_saw (Jul 16, 2009)

revmdn said:


> The colors of green almost blue are stunning Yen. Let me know when they started a second generation.


That's right revmdn there are blue hue on the green for the collected batch while the Indonesia batch is predominantly green, good spot revmdn, would like to see the wing color on the adults.


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## revmdn (Jul 16, 2009)

yen_saw said:


> That's right revmdn there are blue hue on the green for the collected batch while the Indonesia batch is predominantly green, good spot revmdn, would like to see the wing color on the adults.


Me to, me to!


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## yen_saw (Jul 23, 2009)

One of the male collected in Malaysia molt into adult couple of day ago. He has molted at least 3 times since captured back in June 16! Following are couple of pics of the two adult shield mantis (male) next to each other. The original stock from Indonesia is on the right on first pic and left on the second pic. I received the Indonesia adult male shield mantis that appear to be slightly smaller than the usual one I kept, which probably makes the Malaysia shield appear to be larger and has rounder (wider) shield. There is also black color (at the edge) of the bottom of pronotum on Malaysia shield. THe black ring around the white spot on tegmina (front wing) also appear to be thicker with the Malaysia batch. The wing color on the Indonesia batch is jade green while the Malaysia batch is lighter with blue hue. I sent the pic to my friend Mr. Yeh and he thinks it might be Rh. basalis based on photo and location collected. Well maybe finally we have a real Rh. basalis. Hopefully....











I will have a better look at them when they die. But for now i hope the male live a little longer to mate with the female. Maybe there are more differences i will look for them when i have time. Right now it is back to mantis breeding for me.


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## Katnapper (Jul 23, 2009)

I'm very interested in the comparison, Yen... thank you for showing the side-by-side pics! It also looks like the Maylasian male has a slightly longer, slimmer, and more "pointy" end on the tegmina, versus the Indonesian which seems to have a slightly shorter, wider, and more rounded tip.


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## Opivy (Jul 23, 2009)

beautiful pictures! So cool that you were able to find these.

I just ordered a Giant Shield from mantis place =) will be my first, well besides wild one I had when I was about 10


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## Rob Byatt (Jul 23, 2009)

I still have pinned specimens from the original stock of _Rhombodera_ that was lost to the hobby around 2006 (I had them for three generations). The _Rhombodera_ was in stock was very different to the Indonesian stock that Yen brought in a few years ago; the pronotal shield is a different shape, infact, it was similar to the new one pictured above.


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## Katnapper (Jul 23, 2009)

Rob Byatt said:


> I still have pinned specimens from the original stock of _Rhombodera_ that was lost to the hobby around 2006 (I had them for three generations). The _Rhombodera_ was in stock was very different to the Indonesian stock that Yen brought in a few years ago; the pronotal shield is a different shape, infact, it was similar to the new one pictured above.


Would love to see pics of your pinned specimens for comparison here.


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## Rob Byatt (Jul 23, 2009)

Live ones will have to do for the moment  







ps. it was *bought *as _R. basalis_


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## Christian (Jul 23, 2009)

Guys, sent me specimens please. The ones from Malaysia are typical _basalis_ (=_valida_), while I still don't know what the Indonesian ones are. Forget all the obvious features, I will have to do a genitalia preparation.


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## hibiscusmile (Jul 23, 2009)

Really interesting, just to see those diffences is amazing in the hobby, the color though slight is really magnified when comparing them next to each other.


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## yen_saw (Jul 23, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> I'm very interested in the comparison, Yen... thank you for showing the side-by-side pics! It also looks like the Maylasian male has a slightly longer, slimmer, and more "pointy" end on the tegmina, versus the Indonesian which seems to have a slightly shorter, wider, and more rounded tip.


 Thanks for your observation. Good spot!


Opivy said:


> beautiful pictures! So cool that you were able to find these.I just ordered a Giant Shield from mantis place =) will be my first, well besides wild one I had when I was about 10


 Assumed you were in Southeast Asia when you are 10  


Christian said:


> ......... Forget all the obvious features, I will have to do a genitalia preparation.


 Do you mean none of the differences pointed out shows they are two different species, except by looking at the genitalia differences?


hibiscusmile said:


> Really interesting, just to see those diffences is amazing in the hobby, the color though slight is really magnified when comparing them next to each other.


 Thanks Rebecca. It's pretty cool.More comparison....






Below is the Malaysia shield. The shield appear to grow all the way down to the joint.






the shield does not extent all the way down to the joint. (Indonesia)






The hind wing and abdomen of the Indonesia shied appear to more reddish. (dead specimen)
















Indonesia (live specimen)






and this is the Malaysia shield


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## Christian (Jul 24, 2009)

> Do you mean none of the differences pointed out shows they are two different species, except by looking at the genitalia differences?


Yes. I cannot find the other Indonesian specimens you sent me, while I saw a lot different _valida/basalis_ from W-Malaysia, Borneo, Sumatra, Thailand and Myanmar, and all were the same. So I need a couple of Indonesian ones for comparison.


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## hibiscusmile (Jul 24, 2009)

The sheild in the new pic looks plastic!


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## revmdn (Jul 24, 2009)

Great pics.


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## yen_saw (Jul 24, 2009)

Christian said:


> Yes. I cannot find the other Indonesian specimens you sent me, while I saw a lot different _valida/basalis_ from W-Malaysia, Borneo, Sumatra, Thailand and Myanmar, and all were the same. So I need a couple of Indonesian ones for comparison.


 hmm interesting. So your current collection from Southeast Asia all have the same physical appearances or similar genitalia features? This may sound like a stupid question for you but may I know if two mantis with different obvious features but posess similar genitalia structure will they produce viable future generation? If so, how does one differentiate two different species on Rhombodera? I have seen key identifying two different species on Rhombodera just by measuring the shield width or even just by wing color patches different. 


hibiscusmile said:


> The sheild in the new pic looks plastic!


 Yeah i just made it from a plastic factory yesterday :lol: this species does look very plastic, especially right after molting.


revmdn said:


> Great pics.


Thanks Martin


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## Christian (Jul 24, 2009)

> So your current collection from Southeast Asia all have the same physical appearances or similar genitalia features?


Most of the specimens I saw didn't belong to my collection. I just have Malaysian, Birmanese and Bornean ones. They look quite similar, while shield width isn't a good indicator. The largest specimens I saw were from Borneo, I bred them for two generations, and shield width was quite variable in those specimens, even though they belonged to the same stock. It's similar in _Deroplatys_, you have specimens with a wider or narrower shield.



> may I know if two mantis with different obvious features but posess similar genitalia structure will they produce viable future generation? If so, how does one differentiate two different species on Rhombodera? I have seen key identifying two different species on Rhombodera just by measuring the shield width or even just by wing color patches different.


A simple answer would be no, because species with obvious differences usually also have different genitalia. Genitalia may not work strictly like "lock and key", so copulations between closely related species are observed from time to time. However, per definition two species cannot produce viable offspring able to reproduce, so if there is fertile offspring between two "species", their specific status has to be re-evaluated. Of course, things are not simple in nature, but as a rule of thumb, genitalia are important because species look similar, not different. If they look different, you don't need to examine the genitalia.

One can compile a key with morphological characters, but to do so those characters have to be well defined. And this is the problem with Rhombodera and many speciose genera which were not revised yet: the characters used in the past are often prone to considerable variation and not a good indicator of specific status, while stable characters haven't been known or taken into account. Somehow stable characters are genitalia, number and shape of the spines, number and shape of callous spots on the coxae, metazona-prozona relation, shape of wings etc., although there are some exceptions (for instance the _Hierodula bipapilla/patellifera_ problem). The form of the shield may be a good indicator in some species, but not in the _valida_ complex.


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## yen_saw (Aug 7, 2009)

Ah sorry for the late reply. Thanks for the info. I will see if there is any differences between them as you have mentioned.


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## yen_saw (Aug 7, 2009)

By chance I have also received couple of pics from a chinese speaking mantis expert based on the pics posted here.

He didn't mention metazona-prozona relation but the edge of the shield. Notch at the edge of shield for the Malaysia shield and straight line for the Indonesia shield.






Also the shape of wings






I was lucky to spot an adult male (Malaysia) showing threat pose. Took the pic and zoom out the spines on femur. The Indonesia adult male has 16 internal spines whlie Malaysia adult male has 15 internal spines. Both have the same number of external spines which is 4. The extra spine is located at the circle shown in the pic. I have checked the other two adult male and female from Malaysia and they have also lack the extra spine shown in the Indonesia shield mantis.






That's him haha!






When time permits will also check on the number of spines on tibia and coxa too.


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## Christian (Aug 7, 2009)

The shown features are all subject of considerable variation, particularly the number of internal spines. The wing shape may be important though if a comparison of genitalia will prove them to be distinct. I cannot continue on this topic without some Indonesian specimens, particularly, but not exclusively, some males.


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## yen_saw (Aug 7, 2009)

With all due respect, your previous post said number of spines is one of the stable character for species identification and now you said it is subject to variation? I am taking out time from my busy schedule to contribute these info to the forum hoping to share it with the 99% of the hobbyists (including me) in this forum and at the same time hoping the 1% of the experts (including yourself) can provide consistant info for the hobbyists. Now i felt like it is a waste of time to post here.

Please bear in mind that most of us are not entomologists/experts going into dissecting the genital of the insects for identification purpose, so the differences in obvious features on appearances are pretty important to hobbyists like us. This thread might be able to help hobbyists from accidental cross breeding in case there is a chance that “Malaysia” batch being distributed.

I am not trying to prove what you said is wrong but common sense is telling me I shouldn't cross breed this two batches. While you might be more interested in actual true species of both batches than us regular hobbyists’ concern, the purpose of this thread is to show the differences between the two different batches of shield mantis and by no means was I thinking the photos posted here are sufficient for actual species identification purpose. Just want to show there are distinctive enough as different species.

I am in discussion with Lars now in sending you some shield mantis specimen as he is also in Germany (easier on shipment). Although his website stated Rh. basalis (even after i told him it wasn't), they are actually the Indonesia batch from me which is part of the reason why we see many people claimed to own Rh. basalis in Europe nowadays.


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## Christian (Aug 7, 2009)

I wasn't clear on this: some spine numbers are stable, some aren't. For example, the number of outer spines and of discoidal spines is usually very stable among one subfamily. Others,like the outer and inner spines on the tibia and the spines on the coxa, show only slight vairations (+/- 1-2). Others, like the femoral inner spines, may be more variable, depending on body size etc. The number may vary e. g. from 13 to 16 in the same species.

I didn't say that your post was useless, I am just always trying to point out that comparing two specimens isn't sufficient. In such more variable features, you have to check series of say, 20 specimens, to get an average number, then you can see if average numbers differ between species. Saying this, it becomes clear that there may be some overlap in spine numbers and because this is the case they aren't a reliable feature which you can use, for example, in an ID key.

This is the problem with all unstable characters, you need a whole series to see differences, while you only need two specimens if you compare genitalia. There may well be a stable character separating the species, it can be a rather simple one evident for everyone, but first, one must be sure of a specific difference before being able to choose a reliable character. You have to do this first, and all the other stuff, like wings, spines, etc. afterwards, not the other way round.

Again, I'm sorry that I wasn't clear enough on this subject, you know that I appreciate everything you do! Who else can say this of me? :lol:


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## [email protected] (Aug 8, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]Yen you are the man, I think you are doing a great job @ this post the pics, the and obversations.  [/SIZE]


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## OGIGA (Aug 8, 2009)

I wonder if these two species would be able to make viable offsprings.


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## massaman (Jan 27, 2010)

odds are they wont produce offspring but if they do then I am sure their out there somewhere!


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## Opivy (Jan 28, 2010)

super interesting thread!!! sorry to get off topic -

But Yen.. How do you spread their wings like that? I was always scared I would hurt them. ---- Or they would hurt me!


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## yen_saw (Jan 29, 2010)

Opivy said:


> super interesting thread!!! sorry to get off topic -But Yen.. How do you spread their wings like that? I was always scared I would hurt them. ---- Or they would hurt me!


 with lot of struggle... like a wrestling match :lol: i wouldn't recommend doing it if it is not necessary.


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## yen_saw (Feb 18, 2010)

Received a short note from Julio regarding both type of shield mantis after dissecting the male genital. According to him, they are similar species.

A pic of Julio is attached in the link below

http://www.mantodearesearch.com/Literature.html


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## revmdn (Feb 18, 2010)

Three guys from Philly on that list.


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## Christian (Feb 18, 2010)

Can't confirm or reject this as I didn't receive any new males yet.


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## yen_saw (Feb 24, 2010)

revmdn said:


> Three guys from Philly on that list.


Martin, the best Stagmomantis colection in the US is housed by the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia, where James Rehn and Morgan Hebard worked on mantid taxonomy during the first half of 20th century. If I live in Philly I would certainly take my speciment and compare with the ones from the collection, and also pay you a visit too


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## revmdn (Feb 24, 2010)

You can stop on by any time Yen. Do they have a display of mantids there? I must admit I haven't been there since high school.


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## yen_saw (Feb 25, 2010)

revmdn said:


> You can stop on by any time Yen. Do they have a display of mantids there? I must admit I haven't been there since high school.


Yes i have seen the pictures but would love to visit the museum too. One day.... hopefully not when i am :wheelchair:


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## revmdn (Feb 26, 2010)

Now I must take a trip to thiis place. It's only 15 - 20 mins away.


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## hibiscusmile (Feb 26, 2010)

Oh Martin, wait for me! :tt2:


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## naeff002 (Feb 26, 2010)

this really is a beautiful specie


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## revmdn (Feb 26, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> Oh Martin, wait for me! :tt2:


Come on over everyone!


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