# Mantid Cabinet / Enclosures



## lectricblueyes (Mar 26, 2009)

Creating a hand-made cabinet to hold enclosures, nyph cups, small adults and supplies.

[SIZE=14pt]PHASE I: Planning[/SIZE]

Final Draft







*CABINET*

Cost: TBA

Description: The cabinet will have 6 spaces for enclosures and the right side of the cabinet will be completely adjustable for adding small nymph nurseries, smaller species, and feeder insects. Each of the six spaces for enclosures will have a 3in hole bore out near the bottom for cables and a 3x3 square hole for a small fan which will increase airflow. The Mantid cabinet will be sitting up on top of my dresser. Which is 63"Wide x 18" 3/4 Deep x 30" Tall. (Dresser Image Link)

*ENCLOSURES*

Cost: $44.95 (Each) x6

Size will be variable. Though they are 12x12x12, they can be greatly altered based on the height of the substrate, the use of clear fiberglass dividers and the thickness of background wall. Here are the 6 enclosures I'm going to place inside &lt;PT-2600&gt;

(Image Link)

*LIGHTING*

Cost: $14.95 (Each) x6

Each enclosure will have a Compact Top Light Fixtures adhered to the roof of the cabinet and not on the roof of the actual enclosure. This will allow 3in of space between the fixture and the roof of the cage. Providing air flow and keeping the mantids safe from the heat.

(Image Link)

Thanks for reading!!!

David

[SIZE=14pt]PHASE II: Building[/SIZE]

Well, I've bought the wood and to resolve the air flow problem, I'm not going with solid Birch to cover the back. I"m going with peg board which has plenty of holes for air flow. As you can see from my draft plan, I've also taken everyone's advice and I have raised the height between the tops of the enclosures, and the roof of each area to get the lights off of the top of the enclosures and to allow more space for air flow.

Here it is so far (Excuse the messy garage lol)






4/8/2009






[SIZE=14pt]PHASE III: Detailing[/SIZE]

4/9/2009 - Installed the trimming and used wood putty to cover nail holes and other blemishes.











[SIZE=14pt]Phase IV: Painting[/SIZE]

4/9/2009 Painted on the primer and I'm just exhausted, will pick up painting tomorrow night.


























[SIZE=14pt]Phase V: *Top Secret*[/SIZE]

::COMING SOON::

*COST CALCULATOR*

Cabinet:

(2) 4x8 Birch 1/2in sheets of plywood: $81

(1) 4x8 Peg Board $12

2-Piece Brush kit $4

Pack of 2 hooks for water bottles $2

Pack of brass shelf clips $2

Primer Paint $9

Paint $14

Wood putty (for blemishes and to fill in gaps) $8

Sub: $132

Enclosures:

(1) Exo-Terra 12x12x12 Terrarium: $45

(1) Exo-Terra Compact Light (sm): $15

Sub: $60

[SIZE=14pt]GRAND TOTAL: $192[/SIZE]


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## Katnapper (Mar 26, 2009)

I'm impressed with your prospective set-up plans, David!  Let's see... problems I might consider would be:

The larger terrarium-type enclosures aren't very practical for keeping most mantids. Individuals would be better kept in smaller, more mobile containers to allow for easier access to food sources, and greater ease in working with the mantids and enclosures. Those types of enclosures would be OK for sub-adult or adults of larger species, or small groups of communal mantids (not very many species, I'm afraid).

Your collection may outgrow this set-up quicker than you think, lol!

Opening the relatively large door/s at the front to feed, mist, clean, and tend (if that will be your common or only access) might cause trouble with escapee feeders.

This seems like it might add up to a lot of unnecessary expense and WORK!  

You asked for it....  :lol: 

Edit: Oh, and what about ventilation? Did I miss that part?


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## lectricblueyes (Mar 26, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> I'm impressed with your prospective set-up plans, David!  Let's see... problems I might consider would be:The larger terrarium-type enclosures aren't very practical for keeping most mantids. Individuals would be better kept in smaller, more mobile containers to allow for easier access to food sources, and greater ease in working with the mantids and enclosures. Those types of enclosures would be OK for sub-adult or adults of larger species, or small groups of communal mantids (not very many species, I'm afraid).
> 
> Your collection may outgrow this set-up quicker than you think, lol!
> 
> ...


The smallest (Under 2 inches adult?) would go to the area to the right which will have very small enclosures and will be the nymph area along with feeder insects. The 12x12x12 enclosures will be cut in 1/2. So it will be 12x12x6. Now, when it comes to that long 12 inch depth, I can easily scale that down using background material, along with cut sheets of fiberglass. The 12 inch height can also be adjusted using substrate. So, I could get those enclosures down to 10x8x6. I have to admit I am a fan of the bigger species so, most of them will be BIG! (3-4+ inches). As time goes on, I might be adjusting sizes of the enclosures but I like that... I like that each enclosure shares the same lighting and front doors. For example, the giant shield nyphs I received in the mail today will start out on the right side in their own individual containers. (Ordered $40 worth of stuff from Mantisplace) and as they got bigger would be upgraded from the 8oz, 12oz, and 16oz cups. Finally, as pre-adults or adults they would each get a 10x10x6 enclosure. (normal enclosure cut in 1/2 with 2inch thick background and 2inch thick substrate). They like humidity and warmth (60% Humidity and 80-90 F) so that would be an enclosure with the added substrate warmer.

Front accessible. I have to agree with you. opening an entire WALL of your enclosure is asking for escapees! But, these enclosures do allow you to only open 1 of the 2 doors in front. That, and I'm pretty good at keeping my prisoners in their cells. (Prison guard in another life??!!). Besides, what's 1-2 crickets or... a couple of fruit flies here and there when you have literally... hundreds if not thousands!!


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## Rick (Mar 26, 2009)

Very nice and very detailed. I know those tanks are not cheap and honestly they may be too large for small mantid nymphs. I once desired fancy cages but found they just didn't work well for mantid keeping. The fanciest I get is 2 1/2 gal mini aquariums with screen tops. They are much cheaper and would work with your plans. So these days I stick to the idea that simple is best. As far as lighting mantids don't need any special lights so I wouldn't break the bank for fancy UV bulbs when a standard tube flourescent light or anything really will work.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 26, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> The smallest (Under 2 inches adult?) would go to the area to the right which will have very small enclosures and will be the nymph area along with feeder insects. The 12x12x12 enclosures will be cut in 1/2. So it will be 12x12x6. Now, when it comes to that long 12 inch depth, I can easily scale that down using background material, along with cut sheets of fiberglass. The 12 inch height can also be adjusted using substrate. So, I could get those enclosures down to 10x8x6. I have to admit I am a fan of the bigger species so, most of them will be BIG! (3-4+ inches). As time goes on, I might be adjusting sizes of the enclosures but I like that... I like that each enclosure shares the same lighting and front doors. For example, the giant shield nyphs I received in the mail today will start out on the right side in their own individual containers. (Ordered $40 worth of stuff from Mantisplace) and as they got bigger would be upgraded from the 8oz, 12oz, and 16oz cups. Finally, as pre-adults or adults they would each get a 10x10x6 enclosure. (normal enclosure cut in 1/2 with 2inch thick background and 2inch thick substrate). They like humidity and warmth (60% Humidity and 80-90 F) so that would be an enclosure with the added substrate warmer. Front accessible. I have to agree with you. opening an entire WALL of your enclosure is asking for escapees! But, these enclosures do allow you to only open 1 of the 2 doors in front. That, and I'm pretty good at keeping my prisoners in their cells. (Prison guard in another life??!!). Besides, what's 1-2 crickets or... a couple of fruit flies here and there when you have literally... hundreds if not thousands!!


I think that you are going to have great fun building your set up, and I'm certainly not going to tell you to scrap it, but these enclosure were designed for herps and not mantids.

I see three main problems:

Feeding will be much more of a problem than you imagine. When a large ooth hatches, many folks flood the enclosure with mels. You will have problems putting them in through those doors, and keeping them in if the doors aren't sealed in some way. Without a feeding port, it will be almost impossible to feed them the flying insects that you catch outside, though I guess that you could give them stunned flies. If you feed crix, you'll want to know that they have not hopped out while you were closing the doors. It's not a question of expense but of knowing that your mantids are adequately fed.

Is the top mesh? And how close to it will the lights be? Mantids like to hang from the mesh top and will be unable to do so if the light is too close to the grid. Ventillation will be further inpaired if you keep the enclosures in an unventilated cabinet.

Keeping the glass fronts clean will be another issue. You can't clean them in place with glass cleaner, and you will have to remove everything to clean the sides.

Without saying not to do this, I suggest that you first put up a four foot shelf that will take ten 32oz pots. When you successfully hatch an ooth, you will probably want to keep ten babies as breeding stock (and hope that you end up with six!). Cover the pots with cloth lids if the nymphs are taking ffs and put a 1" (2.5cm) hole low down on the side and fill it with a sponge rubber bung. Use a substrate and decoration of your choice , and you are set. You can mist one of these, put in food and have the pot back on the shelf in under 30 seconds most of the time, so that you can service forty pots in about half an hour (at least in theory. In practice, things usually get more interesting!).

You can move the pots around (I usually keep a few near the computer so that we can keep an eye on each other) and it is easy to transfer everything to another pot while cleaning the old one.

Try this and see how you like it before setting up your system. You might end up using both, but for a 2" (5cm) mantis, the pot is all you really need. When/if they get bigger, you can use sweet (candy) jars, which require the same care as the pots, but that's another story.

And keep us up to date on your project!


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## lectricblueyes (Mar 26, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> I think that you are going to have great fun building your set up, and I'm certainly not going to tell you to scrap it, but these enclosure were designed for herps and not mantids.I see three main problems:
> 
> Feeding will be much more of a problem than you imagine. When a large ooth hatches, many folks flood the enclosure with mels. You will have problems putting them in through those doors, and keeping them in if the doors aren't sealed in some way. Without a feeding port, it will be almost impossible to feed them the flying insects that you catch outside, though I guess that you could give them stunned flies. If you feed crix, you'll want to know that they have not hopped out while you were closing the doors. It's not a question of expense but of knowing that your mantids are adequately fed.
> 
> ...


**WOW** thank you so much for the information. I am completely grateful for the time you took and I am **literally** printing this stuff out to have on hand! (Printer at work = cheaper than at home)

I know it seems expensive but I think it's going to be a lot of fun and more than anything, I will be learning. Best thing is.. if worse comes to worse I can re-sell the Exo Terra tanks on ebay and get 1/2 or more back. Then I could use different containers in their place.

Ooths and Nymphs do not belong in 12x12x12 tanks, period. These will be kept to the right side of the cabinet, as outlined in the drawing. I just ordered $40.00 worth of supplies for Ooths/Nymphs from the MantisPlace.com.

Again, the 12x12x12's will be split in 1/2 (or smaller) as needed depending on which species I plan on collecting. I don't know how much "breeding" I'll be doing because my real interest is in collecting, and keeping them alive. I can then order more should they pass away. I'm going for variety here.

You are correct, Mantids do not need special UV lighting though the real live plants which I plan on keeping in the mantis tanks will need it.

I don't plan on having these insects hanging from the metal mesh screen up at the top of the enclosure. (That's no fun!) I plan on having plant life, vines, and other items in the enclosure for them to hang from vertically so that they can properly molt. I understand that a thin band of vaseline can be smeared along the top edges of the glass to keep the mantis from climbing up the glass and onto the top surface.

This is definately an experiment. My father has the wood, and the tools (he stores leftover wood from various projects) and he loves this stuff so were going to bond and have some fun.

As far as the cost goes... well... I don't want to sound like a snob or anything but I'm single, no kids, almost 30 years old and I make a good living. I'll just have to cut back on beer consumption (have you ever bought a beer in a major city? 1 night = 1,000 mantids worth of money! lol).

Again, thank you!


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## revmdn (Mar 26, 2009)

I would never deny a mantid the inside top of it's enclosure. Most of their food lives up there, it's the best place for them to molt, and they like it I think. Also, it keeps them off the floor so they don't step in poop. :lol: I'm not sure if you really want to put Vaseline in the enclosure either. Not sure if it's healthy for them in the long run.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 26, 2009)

I dont know just where the post is right now, but I made a cage with lexan and drilled feeder holes in the front so I dont have to open it to feed, if u use lexan u can drill thru it, u can also take to a glass company (or send them here) for us to drill the holes in it, but the best and most cost effective thing is, (not that I want u drinking Letric) but to order drilled tempered glass for the doors, very safe and cheaper than lexan!


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## Katnapper (Mar 26, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> I don't plan on having these insects hanging from the metal mesh screen up at the top of the enclosure. (That's no fun!) I plan on having plant life, vines, and other items in the enclosure for them to hang from vertically so that they can properly molt. I understand that a thin band of vaseline can be smeared along the top edges of the glass to keep the mantis from climbing up the glass and onto the top surface.


The only problem is that mantids rarely care about or abide by even our best laid plans! They will go to the top mesh if they feel like it, and usually do... even if there are plenty of plants, twigs, or whatever below.

Please don't put Vaseline in any of your mantis enclosures... it's just not a good idea. That's for roaches (barrier to keep them from climbing beyone and escaping from out of the tops of their enclosures). Even if you feed roaches to your mantids, you don't need or want Vaseline inside the mantis enclosure. Just make sure the enclosure is escape-proof (the exception being when you have the door/lid/whatever open).


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## lectricblueyes (Mar 26, 2009)

About the top screen area for them to cling to. I understand they need to be upside down, that they like this behavior, and that putting Vaseline on the very topmost edges of the glass to keep them off of the screen (away from the lamp) is toxic to them (verified?). But, where in nature do mantids find "screen roof" plants growing about?  Maybe I'm making an "######"umption out of myself  but if I give them vines, plant life (real), or otherwise fake plants to hang upside down by... won't that suffice? Isn't that the natural way they live in the wild?

What can I do to keep them off the ceiling? Nothing? If that's the case I'll need to re-do my drawing and have the UVB lamps attached to the roof inside each cabinet. The nymphs will have all the roof space they want because they won't be in the Exo-Terra enclosures.

I discussed the ventilation with my father and he made some suggestions. Being in the computer business, I'm pretty good with cooling/ventilation and I actually know a place that caries silent fans. From 20mm up to 300mm and they are cheap ($5/each). I could run the fans to a power supply (Also cheap) and have the air flowing through the whole cabinet giving constant fresh air.

Sexy isn't always practical both fiscally or otherwise. I'm trying to find the happy medium.


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## lectricblueyes (Mar 26, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> I dont know just where the post is right now, but I made a cage with lexan and drilled feeder holes in the front so I dont have to open it to feed, if u use lexan u can drill thru it, u can also take to a glass company (or send them here) for us to drill the holes in it, but the best and most cost effective thing is, (not that I want u drinking Letric) but to order drilled tempered glass for the doors, very safe and cheaper than lexan!


I can drill holes in standard glass. Tempered is rough. The enclosures I've seen have been pretty standard glass. It's a $7.00 drill bit at most hardware stores designed specifically for drilling glass. Just have to have a steady hand, set the revs real low, and be patient  The bit literally chips away micro pieces of glass (glass dust) until it gets through. You have to stop every 30 seconds to let the bit cool unless you have some real pro gear with water flowing on the bit.


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## Katnapper (Mar 27, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> About the top screen area for them to cling to. I understand they need to be upside down, that they like this behavior, and that putting Vaseline on the very topmost edges of the glass to keep them off of the screen (away from the lamp) is toxic to them (verified?). But, where in nature do mantids find "screen roof" plants growing about?  Maybe I'm making an "######"umption out of myself  but if I give them vines, plant life (real), or otherwise fake plants to hang upside down by... won't that suffice? Isn't that the natural way they live in the wild? What can I do to keep them off the ceiling? Nothing? If that's the case I'll need to re-do my drawing and have the UVB lamps attached to the roof inside each cabinet. The nymphs will have all the roof space they want because they won't be in the Exo-Terra enclosures.
> 
> I discussed the ventilation with my father and he made some suggestions. Being in the computer business, I'm pretty good with cooling/ventilation and I actually know a place that caries silent fans. From 20mm up to 300mm and they are cheap ($5/each). I could run the fans to a power supply (Also cheap) and have the air flowing through the whole cabinet giving constant fresh air.
> 
> Sexy isn't always practical both fiscally or otherwise. I'm trying to find the happy medium.


I don't think Vaseline would be toxic to them, just not a good idea in my estimation.  One of the main reasons I can think of offhand is grip for molting. If they have Vaseline on their feet or other surfaces, and it's time to molt, they can have problems finding and keeping a sufficient grip to a molting surface... and that is necessary. Not having an appropriate surface to molt from, or a good grip to that surface can cause them to fall during the molt. And falling during molting is extremely bad... usually causing deformity at the least, and commmonly death.

Also adults could get stuck by the wings in it. I've had adults get wings stuck to the side of a moist container from water droplet mistings, and die when they dried like that and couldn't get unstuck before I noticed them. I think Vaseline would be worse.

I'm also imagining it getting spread about the entire enclosure eventually... ruining your carefully planned aesthetics, and making everything a slippery hazard for the mantis, and a real b*tch for you to clean!

Someone else might have a different viewpoint or other imput on the Vaseline. This is only my opinion, and I've never tried it in a mantis enclosure to test it.  

I like the idea of the silent ventilation fans. But with artificially forced air moving in and around the enclosures (along with the lights, and even more if you add a heat mat), you could run the risk of depleting your humidity.

Hopefully someone with experience with similar types of set-ups will come in and give you their 2 cents. That would be better than someone like me... who has no experience at all with this type of set-up.


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## lectricblueyes (Mar 27, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> I don't think Vaseline would be toxic to them, just not a good idea in my estimation.  One of the main reasons I can think of offhand is grip for molting. If they have Vaseline on their feet or other surfaces, and it's time to molt, they can have problems finding and keeping a sufficient grip to a molting surface... and that is necessary. Not having an appropriate surface to molt from, or a good grip to that surface can cause them to fall during the molt. And falling during molting is extremely bad... usually causing deformity at the least, and commonly death.Also adults could get stuck by the wings in it. I've had adults get wings stuck to the side of a moist container from water droplet mistings, and die when they dried like that and couldn't get unstuck before I noticed them. I think Vaseline would be worse.
> 
> I'm also imagining it getting spread about the entire enclosure eventually... ruining your carefully planned aesthetics, and making everything a slippery hazard for the mantis, and a real b*tch for you to clean!
> 
> ...


Ahh, the Vaseline idea is looking worse and worse. You make great points I hadn't thought of. I think that idea is about to go out of the window  

Ventilation - I could put the power source/fans on a timer where they run for 5 minutes every hour or so.


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## tonyi (Mar 27, 2009)

> You are correct, Mantids do not need special UV lighting though the real live plants which I plan on keeping in the mantis tanks will need it.


Are you sure? I've had vivariums with lots of live plants for years and I tend to follow a number of vivarium forums closely (my own vivarium is built according to the standards used by the poison dart frog community). I have never heard of any plant that needs UV light. You save yourself a lot of trouble by skipping the UV lights.



> Ventilation - I could put the power source/fans on a timer where they run for 5 minutes every hour or so.


Computer fans are the usual choice in the tropical viv community. They're very cheap, reliable and easy to find in a number of sizes. In my own viv, I have cut off one of the back corners and built a mesh lid to cover it. On top of that lid, I have a 60mm computer fan. It's easy to splice the cables and hook the fan up to a suitable AC/DC adaptor. I suggest finding one that has approx. 4.5V output since the full 12V makes the fan too effective and adds unnecessary noise. By cutting down on the voltage, the fan runs more slowly and will make less noise. My fan is currently set to run about 4 times per day, 15 minutes at a time. My viv, with lots of substrate and plants, maintains a humidity of around 75-95% during the day (depending on how much I've been using the rain system). Place the fans upside down, they should suck air out of the viv, not pump air into them.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 27, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> Ahh, the Vaseline idea is looking worse and worse. You make great points I hadn't thought of. I think that idea is about to go out of the window  Ventilation - I could put the power source/fans on a timer where they run for 5 minutes every hour or so.


I'm not even sure that you want to stop your mantids from climbing any more, but I just tried out an old roach breeder's trick that obviates the need for vaseline. I just took some 2" clear, shiny packing tape and ran it round the inside of a sweater box. Then I dumped a few lobster roaches in the box and got them excited (I don't believe I'm doing this at 0300!). They are good climbers, but they were unable to climb over the tape, which was too slick. YRMV, but you might want to give it a try.

And I'm going to bed, though I was thinking of checking out one of those inexpensive humidor hydrometers, and an ooth has just began to hatch...


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## Rick (Mar 27, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> I'm not even sure that you want to stop your mantids from climbing any more, but I just tried out an old roach breeder's trick that obviates the need for vaseline. I just took some 2" clear, shiny packing tape and ran it round the inside of a sweater box. Then I dumped a few lobster roaches in the box and got them excited (I don't believe I'm doing this at 0300!). They are good climbers, but they were unable to climb over the tape, which was too slick. YRMV, but you might want to give it a try. And I'm going to bed, though I was thinking of checking out one of those inexpensive humidor hydrometers, and an ooth has just began to hatch...


You can't really stop them from climbing up. NEVER use anything sticky for mantids. They WILL get caught in it and be stuck. Do not use the vaseline or any tape. I love your idea but Phil raised some great points that I forgot about. It's up to you but this hobby can be done pretty cheap. I totally understand wanting fancy cages so if you want to continue you have some changes to make.


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## revmdn (Mar 27, 2009)

I think Rick has it right.


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## tonyi (Mar 27, 2009)

Rick said:


> You can't really stop them from climbing up. NEVER use anything sticky for mantids. They WILL get caught in it and be stuck. Do not use the vaseline or any tape. I love your idea but Phil raised some great points that I forgot about. It's up to you but this hobby can be done pretty cheap. I totally understand wanting fancy cages so if you want to continue you have some changes to make.


Maybe I'm mistaking here but didn't he mean that the tape should be attached to the sides of the enclosure? I.e., that the mantids would not be exposed to the sticky side but to the slick backside?


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## lectricblueyes (Mar 27, 2009)

Rick said:


> You can't really stop them from climbing up. NEVER use anything sticky for mantids. They WILL get caught in it and be stuck. Do not use the Vaseline or any tape. I love your idea but Phil raised some great points that I forgot about. It's up to you but this hobby can be done pretty cheap. I totally understand wanting fancy cages so if you want to continue you have some changes to make.


Ah so the Vaseline and tape aren't looking so good. The tape is tempting and would seem plausible if it's done ***very*** carefully leaving absolutely no sticky-side facing up and no air bubbles so that it would never come undone. Checking the tape on a routine basis would be required as well. It also eliminates the problem of the mantids dragging Vaseline throughout the enclosure.

Can't really stop them from climbing up. Well, you are probably correct and really, the solution is easy. Get the lights off of the top of the enclosure.

So to recap:

1. Mantids hanging on the roof - Impossible to stop, no solution, they MUST be allowed to dangle from the screen regardless of plant life available and no matter how precisely/carefully placed the tape is, they will get stuck in it. Vaseline could be toxic, will get dragged around the enclosure and could interfere with molting.

Solution - Raise the lights off of the top of the enclosure and let them dingleberry up there.

2. Money - It's unnecessary, you can save a lot of money, it's not as portable and the Exo-Terra 12x12x12 is not really a good idea for Mantids

Solution -  I'm okay with the money and the enclosures can be split into 2 smaller enclosures and only the biggest of my collection go in here, the rest will be placed on the right-hand side of the cabinet.

3. Cabinet might not have enough air flow

Solution - Install computer fans and route them to a power source (AC Adap or PC PS)

Okay so with all the warnings and "dont do it" advice. I'm not going to buy the 6 Exo-Terra enclosures. I'm going to buy just 1 enclosure and see how well it works (or does not). That will reduce the cost of this thing *significantly* and is just.. a smart idea since I don't really know how well they will work. (or not).

Cost:

Cabinet - Estimated $100-$125

(1) Exo Terra 12x12x12 $45

(1) Exo Terra Compact Light fixture $15

(1) LCD Thermometer $5

$165-$190. That's a very rough estimate and it doesn't include anything that goes into the enclosure.


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## Rick (Mar 27, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> Ah so the Vaseline and tape aren't looking so good. The tape is tempting and would seem plausible if it's done ***very*** carefully leaving absolutely no sticky-side facing up and no air bubbles so that it would never come undone. Checking the tape on a routine basis would be required as well. It also eliminates the problem of the mantids dragging Vaseline throughout the enclosure.Can't really stop them from climbing up. Well, you are probably correct and really, the solution is easy. Get the lights off of the top of the enclosure.
> 
> So to recap:
> 
> ...


I don't know if the vaseline would be toxic however it is sticky and just won't work. Lights are not what makes mantids go to the top, they just like to spend much of their time as high up as they can get. There really is no way around that. Good luck.


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## revmdn (Mar 27, 2009)

This is just my opinion, but I would put the smaller adult mantids in 32 oz deli cups, the larger species in 2.5 gallon tanks. Spend the money on a nice shelving unit or units. Air flow is important (orchids), but I don't think you need fans for each container. Maybe one for the room. And I think Phil mentioned the tape in regards to some roach species, but others can walk up smooth surfaces. Mantids can climb up almost all surfaces. So the risk is not worth it, and I don't think it would work. Sometimes the simplest ideas are the best, although I like your attitude. B)


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## lectricblueyes (Mar 27, 2009)

revmdn said:


> This is just my opinion, but I would put the smaller adult mantids in 32 oz deli cups, the larger species in 2.5 gallon tanks. Spend the money on a nice shelving unit or units. Air flow is important (orchids), but I don't think you need fans for each container. Maybe one for the room. And I think Phil mentioned the tape in regards to some roach species, but others can walk up smooth surfaces. Mantids can climb up almost all surfaces. So the risk is not worth it, and I don't think it would work. Sometimes the simplest ideas are the best, although I like your attitude. B)


Yep, agree on the smaller adults. Definitely a good idea I'm keeping the right side of the cabinet wide open with adjustable shelves for just that reason.

Airflow is for the enclosures mostly because they won't have a whole ton of space between the top lid and the roof of the cabinet.

Awww.. buy shelves? That's no fun!  Father/Son time would be totally restricted since furniture purchasing is my mother's forte!

I am definitely posting all of this for advice/criticism so... keep it coming.  Don't be shy.

Thanks for the compliment on my attitude  I feel a bit defeated in my fancy pants/over priced setup but I'm gonna keep trucking.


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## lectricblueyes (Mar 27, 2009)

Anyone willing to experiment a bit? Try putting up that super-slick clear shipping tape to see if an adult can climb on it? I probably don't need to say this but if you DO want to give it a shot, *FEEL THE TAPE WITH YOUR FINGER to be SURE *there is no sticky side up!!! Thanks!


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## Swipht (Mar 27, 2009)

I see where he's coming from. Putting many cups on the right to hatch ooths in, as well as keeping individual mantis until they grow to a size that would be better suited for the larger tarrariums.

As far as opening the front of the tarrarium and letting the feeders escape, what if you put the sleves on tracks like your draws in the kitchen, so you can slide the tanks out, and open it from the top? That way you wont run the risk of any non flying food from escaping. Might be easier then trying to drill holes in the glass, and run the risk of cracking it. Then again I don't really find press board easy to drill into... Hate the stuff myself. Used to have a wood shop in my garrage as a kid: so I can see how working with wood would be a great time, especialy having a beer with your dad while doing it. You should becareful that the shelves wont slide off the tracks and fall out, breaking your tarrarium.... You might not think $46 dollars is a lot, but cleaning up the mess would be a pain. Maybe also make a lip to catch the tarrarium if you should pull it out to fast and it wants to slide forward.

If you don't want to go the route of building sliding shelves then you could always just use foreseps to 'hand' feed your mantis. Then again you really can't force them to eat, since they do have the habbit of not eating before they molt, or lay ooths. So just offer it to them, and if they don't take it just put it back, and offer it to them again later that day, or the next day. Cut back on escapees, as well makes it easier for the mantis to find food in a 'larger' encloser.


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## bassist (Mar 27, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> Anyone willing to experiment a bit? Try putting up that super-slick clear shipping tape to see if an adult can climb on it? I probably don't need to say this but if you DO want to give it a shot, *FEEL THE TAPE WITH YOUR FINGER to be SURE *there is no sticky side up!!! Thanks!


Not going to stop them from getting up if they want to they'll just fly/jump, getting to the top is unavoidable Lol.


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## Rick (Mar 27, 2009)

Mantids can climb about anything and if they couldn't get to the top they will likely keep on trying. Don't feel bad. Most newcomers to this hobby want fancy cages at first but soon realize simple is better.


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## lectricblueyes (Mar 27, 2009)

Rick said:


> Mantids can climb about anything and if they couldn't get to the top they will likely keep on trying. Don't feel bad. Most newcomers to this hobby want fancy cages at first but soon realize simple is better.


  Like your signature says...

Yours truly,

Stupid


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 27, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> Like your signature says...Yours truly,
> 
> Stupid


No, stupid you're not, you're just close enough to being a Chicagoan to want to things BIG. Your project also seems to have captured everyone's interest  

I'm still very new at this, less than six months (it just feels like six years) and my setup is relatively small, 40 32 oz pots and some larger containers for breeding, larger species etc. Since, like you, I live alone, except for Faithful Hound, I can do what I like, and my bedroom is now effectively the bug room. With ooths, new hatchlings, nymphs, adults and courting couples, it takes a fair bit of work (but FUN work!) to keep it manageable. This weekend, ten surviving GiantAsian nymphs will go into pots as potentil breeding stock, and early next week, I shall get ten of Don L's new babies, so that is 20 more puts and two more shelves. I shall also get an adult ghost and a bunch of new ooths next week. The point is that you are probably going to do the same, and it will be hard to manage your "growth spurts" in yr beautiful, proposed setups.

Here is something you might want to consider. Build your cabinet, but leave it open and somewhere where it can be seen and show off your adult specimens. You can solve the the ceiling problem by putting in a false one, and you'll work out the other issues.

I guess at your age you don't want to turn your bedroom into a workroom :lol: but it would be good to have a room like that (and a box with 100 pots and lids) to manage your day-to-day husbandry and house all those sweater boxes full of crix and roaches. It would be really great if you could find someone in your area with a setup, but there are always folks in this forum to talk to.

And, if you work hard, you should have your work room running and all your enclosures on display when you hold a big party to celebrate the Cubs winning the World Series this year!!


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## Katnapper (Mar 28, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> No, stupid you're not.


I agree!  You just haven't gained experience *yet*, and are funny to boot... anyone who can make Rick laugh has to be funny.  (And he likely laughed at your signature!)



> I guess at your age you don't want to turn your bedroom into a workroom :lol: but it would be good to have a room like that


Yes, turning your bedroom into a "bug room" might have negative effects on your social life.  But hopefully you either have an alternate workable space in your apartment... or a girlfriend/s that won't run away screaming in horror just when the mood gets good! :lol:


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## Rick (Mar 28, 2009)

I love his idea. The original plans would make a great enlcosure for some other creature. Just gonna need some modifications for mantids. I really like the 2 1/2 gallon mini aquariums I mentioned. For awhile there I would buy those little potted indoor plants and put them in there pot and all. They made it look pretty nice. Another thing I don't like about mantids is with misting it tends to dirty up the glass pretty fast not to mention all the mantis poop. I always end up back at the 32 oz deli cup. &lt;_&lt;


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## tonyi (Mar 29, 2009)

LectricBlueyes;

I fully understand the desire to have a nice planted vivarium set up. It is a bit of different mindset, a well-functioning planted vivarium requires a holistic approach, i.e. it's not a cage for a mantis but an attempt to maintain a limited miniature eco-system. The mantis/mantids are just one of many organisms in such an enclosure. This requires some planning in terms of substrate, lighting, moisture/climate control and it also benefits from an established population of invertebrates (springtails and isopods do the dirty work). It's a very rewarding experience to maintain a whole system like that and not particularly work-intensive once the planning and construction work is finished.

That said, I've come to understand that an enclosure like that is not better than a more easy solution when it comes to rearing mantids. However, I still intend to try it once my orchid mantis has grown larger. Feeding ports and fly-proofing are easily taken care of with a little DIY spirit (I already have taken care of both in my Exo Terra).

I've attached a pic of my own Exo Terra vivarium to give you an idea of how it can look. The water feature has been removed after the pic was taken though, I've used that space for experiments with non-organic substrates instead.


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## Rick (Mar 29, 2009)

Tony said:


> LectricBlueyes;I fully understand the desire to have a nice planted vivarium set up. It is a bit of different mindset, a well-functioning planted vivarium requires a holistic approach, i.e. it's not a cage for a mantis but an attempt to maintain a limited miniature eco-system. The mantis/mantids are just one of many organisms in such an enclosure. This requires some planning in terms of substrate, lighting, moisture/climate control and it also benefits from an established population of invertebrates (springtails and isopods do the dirty work). It's a very rewarding experience to maintain a whole system like that and not particularly work-intensive once the planning and construction work is finished.
> 
> That said, I've come to understand that an enclosure like that is not better than a more easy solution when it comes to rearing mantids. However, I still intend to try it once my orchid mantis has grown larger. Feeding ports and fly-proofing are easily taken care of with a little DIY spirit (I already have taken care of both in my Exo Terra).
> 
> I've attached a pic of my own Exo Terra vivarium to give you an idea of how it can look. The water feature has been removed after the pic was taken though, I've used that space for experiments with non-organic substrates instead.


Wow that is beautiful Tony! I think if you have something like that a mantis can live just fine in it. However for most of us with multiple mantids and breeding going on the simple approach is better.


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## tonyi (Mar 29, 2009)

> Wow that is beautiful Tony! I think if you have something like that a mantis can live just fine in it. However for most of us with multiple mantids and breeding going on the simple approach is better.


Thanks Rick! I agree with your assessment, I just wanted to mention that a tropical vivarium can be an end in itself rather than "just" an enclosure for a specific mantid or herp. Right now I'm keeping my orchid mantis in a 32oz container placed inside the vivarium (the idea being that she can get accustomed to and benefit from the climate and lighting until she gets big enough to roam around freely).


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## lectricblueyes (Mar 29, 2009)

Tony said:


> LectricBlueyes;I fully understand the desire to have a nice planted vivarium set up. It is a bit of different mindset, a well-functioning planted vivarium requires a holistic approach, i.e. it's not a cage for a mantis but an attempt to maintain a limited miniature eco-system. The mantis/mantids are just one of many organisms in such an enclosure. This requires some planning in terms of substrate, lighting, moisture/climate control and it also benefits from an established population of invertebrates (springtails and isopods do the dirty work). It's a very rewarding experience to maintain a whole system like that and not particularly work-intensive once the planning and construction work is finished.
> 
> That said, I've come to understand that an enclosure like that is not better than a more easy solution when it comes to rearing mantids. However, I still intend to try it once my orchid mantis has grown larger. Feeding ports and fly-proofing are easily taken care of with a little DIY spirit (I already have taken care of both in my Exo Terra).
> 
> I've attached a pic of my own Exo Terra vivarium to give you an idea of how it can look. The water feature has been removed after the pic was taken though, I've used that space for experiments with non-organic substrates instead.


Wow! Tony, that is amazing. That is far more advanced than what I have in mind for now. I do want to reach that level of beauty/expertise/detail one day.


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## The_Asa (Mar 29, 2009)

I also like the idea. If you really want to get into this hobby by way of obtaining many mantids, this is going to be outdated in time however. With a select few it really shouldn't be as much of a problem. A couple kinks worked out and this should be at the very least functional as well as aesthetic.


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 3, 2009)

UPDATE

Work is moving forward. As you can see I'll be updating my original post (thread starter) with news and photos.


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## hibiscusmile (Apr 4, 2009)

Hey lectric, no vaseline, use earwax! :lol: any kind of oil and petroleum will end up killing the mantis and feeders, so lets move on...

What is the main reason for the kind of setup u r trying to make? if u r worried about the light on top, it can go on the side, or lower a screen which would be great for them to hang on and if u use fiberglass it wont absorbe the heat like wire will. I dont think it is advisable to stop them from hanging, the reason I say this is for their well being. If you came homefrom work and the couch and chair u usually hang around on was gone, u would have to sit somewhere else and as such u would be uncomfortable, and as such it would probably generally aggitate u as time when on, I mean sitting in a straight back chair, which u had to get from the kitchen :lol: is no wheres near as comfortable as that worn in couch or your easy chair... and it could cause them to be really uncomfortable too, like some of my dead leafs like to grab the guy next to them and use him as a branch, now the tough guy seems to like this, but the branch guy, well lets just say he is not a happy branch! :lol:


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## Rick (Apr 4, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Hey lectric, no vaseline, use earwax! :lol: any kind of oil and petroleum will end up killing the mantis and feeders, so lets move on...What is the main reason for the kind of setup u r trying to make? if u r worried about the light on top, it can go on the side, or lower a screen which would be great for them to hang on and if u use fiberglass it wont absorbe the heat like wire will. I dont think it is advisable to stop them from hanging, the reason I say this is for their well being. If you came homefrom work and the couch and chair u usually hang around on was gone, u would have to sit somewhere else and as such u would be uncomfortable, and as such it would probably generally aggitate u as time when on, I mean sitting in a straight back chair, which u had to get from the kitchen :lol: is no wheres near as comfortable as that worn in couch or your easy chair... and it could cause them to be really uncomfortable too, like some of my dead leafs like to grab the guy next to them and use him as a branch, now the tough guy seems to like this, but the branch guy, well lets just say he is not a happy branch! :lol:


Agree with everything except earwax. Mantids will want to use the lid most of the time so do not deny that option.

It's looking good. How do you get those tanks so cheap?


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 4, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Hey lectric, no vaseline, use earwax! :lol: any kind of oil and petroleum will end up killing the mantis and feeders, so lets move on...What is the main reason for the kind of setup u r trying to make? if u r worried about the light on top, it can go on the side, or lower a screen which would be great for them to hang on and if u use fiberglass it wont absorbe the heat like wire will. I dont think it is advisable to stop them from hanging, the reason I say this is for their well being. If you came homefrom work and the couch and chair u usually hang around on was gone, u would have to sit somewhere else and as such u would be uncomfortable, and as such it would probably generally aggitate u as time when on, I mean sitting in a straight back chair, which u had to get from the kitchen :lol: is no wheres near as comfortable as that worn in couch or your easy chair... and it could cause them to be really uncomfortable too, like some of my dead leafs like to grab the guy next to them and use him as a branch, now the tough guy seems to like this, but the branch guy, well lets just say he is not a happy branch! :lol:


Yep, I've done away with keeping them off the ceiling. This is why I've re-done my plans and have made more room between the top of the enclosure, and the lights. (Don't want them getting too hot!). I'll be using the lowest wattage possible.


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 4, 2009)

Rick said:


> Agree with everything except earwax. Mantids will want to use the lid most of the time so do not deny that option. It's looking good. How do you get those tanks so cheap?


Petland in Tinley Park, IL sells them for $44.99 each. I talked to the manager and told her I was going to buy 5 more, she's going to put an order out for me and discount each one by $5. $40 each. This is, of course only if I buy the light fixtures at regular price, 5 of those also. Right now, I'm holding off on buying 5 more because it's silly to buy all of that when I don't even have mantids to put into them. Also, going to central america for 21 days in May.


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## Rick (Apr 5, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> Petland in Tinley Park, IL sells them for $44.99 each. I talked to the manager and told her I was going to buy 5 more, she's going to put an order out for me and discount each one by $5. $40 each. This is, of course only if I buy the light fixtures at regular price, 5 of those also. Right now, I'm holding off on buying 5 more because it's silly to buy all of that when I don't even have mantids to put into them. Also, going to central america for 21 days in May.


They seem to be more expensive when I saw them. That might be for a larger one though.


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 5, 2009)

Rick said:


> They seem to be more expensive when I saw them. That might be for a larger one though.


Price sky rockets when you go up above the 12x12x12.


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 8, 2009)

Phase II picture added today

Added $40 to the cost of building materials (Paint, molding, adjustable shelf brackets, hooks for misting bottles, primer)


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## Rick (Apr 11, 2009)

Lookin good


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 11, 2009)

Rick said:


> Lookin good


Thank you Rick. So far the best part has been hanging out with my dad and just relaxing, listening to some nice music and painting. It'll be done and the final photo will be ready tomorrow night. Happy Easter


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## Rick (Apr 11, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> Thank you Rick. So far the best part has been hanging out with my dad and just relaxing, listening to some nice music and painting. It'll be done and the final photo will be ready tomorrow night. Happy Easter


I wish I was more handy with things like this. I can do about anything on a car but ask me to cut a board in a straight line and it comes out crooked. Besides, the wife would not be happy if I came home with something like that. I get away with the 5 shelf unit but that's it.


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 12, 2009)

Alright, it's completed. Phase V: Top Secret will be completed next week. This has been entered into the contest. Thank you all for your advice and help! I appreciate it!


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## Rick (Apr 12, 2009)

What do you have in those plastic containers? I hope not mantids or ooths as they are WAY too short.

In the bottom right, is that fruit flies? If so you don't need to pack it so full of stuff. I have never figured out why people do that. I dont' put anything in there.


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 12, 2009)

Rick said:


> What do you have in those plastic containers? I hope not mantids or ooths as they are WAY too short. In the bottom right, is that fruit flies? If so you don't need to pack it so full of stuff. I have never figured out why people do that. I dont' put anything in there.


The 12oz deli's have 1 L2-L3 acromantis nymphs in them, and the 16 oz deli's have L3-L4 giant Malaysian nymphs. According to the care sheets from MantisPlace.com, these should be more than sufficient. What do you suggest for L2-L4 nymphs? I could take a close of those cups and maybe you can see better? If you look at the two FF cultures you'll see the one with the green goo on the bottom has a TON of ###### in there. That one was store-bought and the store is supplied with the FF cultures from a guy who breeds/sells fruit flies. I agree with you, it's full of so much crud and I can never get enough FF's out of the darn culture because they can't get through to the hole because of so much STUFF in the way. The other FF culture with the off-white food on the bottom has very few coffee filters and some of that.. stringy stuff from Mantisplace.com. Now, maybe none is better but I didn't go anywhere NEAR as crazy as that store-bought stuff.  If you insist that nothing but food is good in there, I'll do that in my next culture. Fine by me, if they can survive with nothing to climb up but the walls of the cup... then I see no use for anything else.


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## lectricblueyes (Apr 12, 2009)

Rick said:


> What do you have in those plastic containers? I hope not mantids or ooths as they are WAY too short. In the bottom right, is that fruit flies? If so you don't need to pack it so full of stuff. I have never figured out why people do that. I dont' put anything in there.


Here you go, that tiny brown thing up at the top is an Acromantis nymph and this is a 12oz cup.


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## Rick (Apr 13, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> Here you go, that tiny brown thing up at the top is an Acromantis nymph and this is a 12oz cup.quote]
> 
> Those are too short IMO. It looks like he can do maybe one molt safety and that is it. With that foam in the bottom he may hit the bottom on his next molt actually. It appears all of your containers are about the same height. If that acromantis is that close to the bottom the other larger species is going to hit bottom when he molts. I would remove that excelsior as it just gets in the way and could interfere with a molt. I only use that stuff in containers with ooths. Height is very important. I recommend again the use of 32 oz deli cups for nymphs as they are the perfect size and leave plenty of room for molting.
> 
> As for the fruit flies many people cram them full of stuff which causes the problem you mentioned. If you want to use a little excelsior that is fine or you can use fiberglass screen or the plastic screen they sell for the purpose. I started taking some screen and wrapping it around the inside of the container but most times I use nothing at all.


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## Christian (Apr 26, 2009)

Even with the risk of boring you with repetitions, I'm keeping all my mantids in large enclosures, most of them planted. I don't use a single box anymore, except for singletons that require that I have an eye on them (specimens that I need for the collection etc.). That mantids cannot find food in large containers is simply a myth. Cleaning isn't an issue, as debris is eaten up by feeder insects (roaches, firebrats) and springtails. I clean the window and the cage walls about 1-2 times a year when the cage is empty for some days. That's also the time I cut the plants back to a good size.

It's ok for you all to use cups and stuff like this, but telling that large enclosures don't work it's just not true. So, LectricBlueEyes, just go on with it and make your own experiences.


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## Rick (Apr 26, 2009)

Christian said:


> Even with the risk of boring you with repetitions, I'm keeping all my mantids in large enclosures, most of them planted. I don't use a single box anymore, except for singletons that require that I have an eye on them (specimens that I need for the collection etc.). That mantids cannot find food in large containers is simply a myth. Cleaning isn't an issue, as debris is eaten up by feeder insects (roaches, firebrats) and springtails. I clean the window and the cage walls about 1-2 times a year when the cage is empty for some days. That's also the time I cut the plants back to a good size.It's ok for you all to use cups and stuff like this, but telling that large enclosures don't work it's just not true. So, LectricBlueEyes, just go on with it and make your own experiences.


I prefer smaller but I know large will work. Most mantids have to be kept alone so what is the point of a huge enclosure for one mantis? THey can find food yes but they tend not to find as much of it in my experience. I find I always have to feed extra to ensure they get enough when in a large enclosure.


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## Christian (Apr 26, 2009)

Oh, I see, I forgot to add that I keep all mantids communally in the large containers. Even adult females of most species can be kept together when they can space out. Of course this is something that you only can do with some experience, and it doesn't work with some species (_Tenodera_ etc.), but nymphs and adult males are suited for communal breeding in larger enclosures.


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## yeatzee (Jun 30, 2009)

Would you mind posting your enclosures Christian?


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## kmsgameboy (Jul 12, 2009)

Looks good just as most of the creations on mantid forums do. I really need to find me a work room and some tools!


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