# Hole in mantis abdomen, leaking



## Mantis Mama (Oct 2, 2016)

I came upon one of my dear mantis adolescents hanging, like a rag draped over a laundry line. He was in an L6 molt that had clearly gone very wrong.  He had a hole in his abdomen and was stuck in his exoskeleton.  I don't know how the hole got there.  The branch that he was hanging from had a rough bark (from Nanking Cherry tree) but I don't know if this would be a problem.  Or, did he somehow blow a hole during the molting process by expanding too much???  He's a Chinese praying mantis.

Anyway, he is still alive - barely.  He won't eat anything solid or even semi-solid, will only take liquids.  So, I've been getting him to slurp the liquid that comes off thawed pieces of brine shrimp cubes.  But seconds later, it leaks out of the hole in his abdomen.  He has become quite lethargic and I'm afraid he is starving 'cause the nutrients just leak out the hole. 

Is there some way of sealing the hole?  There is a beige coloured thing that pulsates out the hole at the same time that the liquid comes out.  Is this a piece of internal anatomy?  Is there internal anatomy, or is the outer abdominal skin the outer surface of an open digestive system?  If the hole is somehow sealed, does that lock in something that is supposed to go elsewhere through a waste removal system that might also have a hole in it?  So many questions. . . .

Has anybody experienced this type of problem before?

(I tried to upload pictures but for some reason they wouldn't upload.)


----------



## Krissim Klaw (Oct 3, 2016)

You can try superglue to seal the hole. Without knowing where the hole is it is hard to say if it will actually save him or just prolong the inevitable. It will all depend on if his digestive track is intact enough to carry food/waste fully down and out. I've also heard of people using honey, but I've never personally used that for wounds so I can't say how well it works.

I've only had one rupture before and it was a very old mantis that burst at the seam in one of her segments. There was so much blood I thought for sure she was going to be a goner. I was initially planning to use some superglue to stop the blood loss but her wound had already started to clot on its own. I offered water via eye dropper. Every ten minutes at first until she stopped greedily lapping it up. I would give her as much as she wanted to drink. Initially she was very shaky from all the blood loss but after a bunch of water and a couple hours rest she managed to re-hydrate herself. Went on to live another month plus like nothing was wrong before finally succumbing to old age.


----------



## CosbyArt (Oct 3, 2016)

As it is a nymph if you try to seal the hole with super glue or any other glue, it will cause it to become trapped in the next molt. Super glue can help some cases, but should only be used on adult mantises due to molting.  Sometimes the hole may seal itself too, the blood can form a black crusty looking scab; however, if this has been going on for a day already it isn't likely.

Honey is a natural antiseptic and if smeared on the opening may help the hole to scab over more quickly, and save the mantis. It is worth a trying if you think the mantis has a chance to survive at this point; otherwise, I'd say the most humane thing you could do is place the mantis into the freezer (for at least 24 hours) to end it's suffering.  

Regarding how the hole appeared in the abdomen, the most common cause is from them falling onto a pointed sticks or rocks (and likely when it was still soft from molting in your case). The rough bark could also have caused the puncture wound - as a slip or fall on anything pointed can cause wounds in mantises.


----------



## Krissim Klaw (Oct 3, 2016)

CosbyArt said:


> As it is a nymph if you try to seal the hole with super glue or any other glue, it will cause it to become trapped in the next molt. Super glue can help some cases, but should only be used on adult mantises due to molting.  Sometimes the hole may seal itself too, the blood can form a black crusty looking scab; however, if this has been going on for a day already it isn't likely.


I am curious about the reasoning behind it getting stuck in a molt? If this was a nymph coming up on a molt I could understand that as the skin beneath would already be highly formed and you could easily end up gluing it in the process, but this mantis just shed. I'm guessing the fact the mantis literally just shed is also one of the reasons the wound is having such a hard time clotting. The pro with superglue is the almost instant result. I do view superglue as a last resort type of method though and would use it highly sparingly. You want just enough to start the blood clotting on the surface.

I forgot to mention I've also heard of cornstarch/flour used for invert wounds to start the clotting process.


----------



## CosbyArt (Oct 3, 2016)

Krissim Klaw said:


> I am curious about the reasoning behind it getting stuck in a molt? If this was a nymph coming up on a molt I could understand that as the skin beneath would already be highly formed and you could easily end up gluing it in the process, but this mantis just shed. I'm guessing the fact the mantis literally just shed is also one of the reasons the wound is having such a hard time clotting. The pro with superglue is the almost instant result. I do view superglue as a last resort type of method though and would use it highly sparingly. You want just enough to start the blood clotting on the surface.
> 
> ...


Correct on the reasoning to avoid any glue on mantid nymphs, but not the reason why.

For clarity if you think of the mantids exoskeleton being like human skin tissue, the subcutaneous tissue (hypodermis) layer the most inferior layer (bottom inside layer) would be responsible for creating the new exoskeleton. If any glue bonds with that tissue layer, which it would as the glue would flow into a hole to seal it (no matter how thin the glue is applied), the affected region could not create the new exoskeleton properly. In fact the area would become a region on the soon to be created exoskeleton that is deformed (no exoskeleton made) and permanently attaches the rest of it around the glue where the new exoskeleton would end, which will trap the mantis when it molts.

I measured the exoskeleton cross-section tissue thickness of a mantid specimen I have, to put it into prospective for this post.

With my electronic caliper gauge the mantid abdomen exoskeleton (a large Chinese mantid (Tenodera sinensis)) is only 0.009 inches (0.22 mm) thick, and that is giving a bit of size from checking various abdominal locations. A glue layer would be much thicker than that no matter how little you used. A human hair ranges from 0.001" to 0.004" (0.04 to 0.12 mm) in thickness.

Putting those measurements together a mantids abdomen thickness is only two to three human hairs, laid flat together, thick. It also demonstrates how easy it is to puncture their abdomen from anything pointed/sharp or from a fall.

Lets say for arguments sake, even if the glue did not bond to the inner tissue of the mantis - if the glue contacts any internal organs that would itself result in other life threatening problems, or simply the external area that is glued can not flex properly like it should during the next molt and that will lead to it becoming trapped in the exuviae.

So as you can see glue of any sort, including super glue, should not be used on any mantid nymphs. It may prolong it's life until the nest molt at best, but either way it will in the end lead to the nymphs death.



Krissim Klaw said:


> ...
> 
> I forgot to mention I've also heard of cornstarch/flour used for invert wounds to start the clotting process.


Those are great materials to try, and ones I've used myself. They are worth trying for wounds, and would be much better than honey.


----------



## RedHead (Oct 4, 2016)

My thoughts are with u.  I'm crossing my fingers.  Wish I had advice.


----------



## Mantis Mama (Oct 4, 2016)

Thank you all for such valuable input.

My mantis stopped taking liquids today. He could no longer lift his head and as I held him in the palm of my hand I realized that he was

indeed dying.  So sad.   Tomorrow I'll bury him in the garden.


----------



## Krissim Klaw (Oct 4, 2016)

@CosbyArt

Do you by any chance have any links to any studies/documentation of superglue used in mantids/other insects that results in what your described?

I'll admit most of the superglue usage I've seen mentioned over the years has been by tarantula owners to fix life threatening abdomen ruptures. There are mentions of a risk of a soft spot/exoskeleton not forming properly in the next molt, but it has also been used with great success in other cases where the spider molts without issue in the next molt. Naturally tarantulas aren't mantises so there are a number of different factors including the fact tarantulas can go many months/years between molts.

@Mantis Mama

I'm sorry for your lost. It sounds like you did the best you could. Sadly us humans are rather limited when something goes wrong, especially during the molting process when they are so fragile.


----------



## CosbyArt (Oct 4, 2016)

Mantis Mama said:


> Thank you all for such valuable input.
> 
> My mantis stopped taking liquids today. He could no longer lift his head and as I held him in the palm of my hand I realized that he was
> 
> indeed dying.  So sad.   Tomorrow I'll bury him in the garden.


Sorry to hear he did succumb to the injury.  You gave him the best chance he could hope for. Hopefully in time things such as this can be treated by keepers at home.



Krissim Klaw said:


> @CosbyArt
> 
> Do you by any chance have any links to any studies/documentation of superglue used in mantids/other insects that results in what your described?
> 
> I'll admit most of the superglue usage I've seen mentioned over the years has been by tarantula owners to fix life threatening abdomen ruptures. There are mentions of a risk of a soft spot/exoskeleton not forming properly in the next molt, but it has also been used with great success in other cases where the spider molts without issue in the next molt. Naturally tarantulas aren't mantises so there are a number of different factors including the fact tarantulas can go many months/years between molts.


Nope just the ones provided, and my experience super gluing two mantises shortly after starting out in the hobby, and the basic theory as stated above. As with most things we take for granted in this hobby only personal experience can be found - as I highly doubt there has ever been a single study preformed scientifically on the use of cyanoacrylates glues on insect injuries and their outcome, let along one that can be found online freely (most scientific sites require a paid university account to even access the data).

In the same token, show me studies/documentation that shows it is safe to use super glue on mantises (a insect that is highly susceptible to chemicals).  

If your looking for hard data then research into the main chemical component in super glue, cyanoacrylates. The chemical is a irritation to any sensitive tissue membrane (eyes, mouth/throat, and even skin), can cause burns on sensitive skin, respiratory issues - all in humans. Let along putting such a chemical on a mantis that as a insect is highly sensitive to chemicals. Sure there are medical grades of the glue available for humans, but any super glue available is not refined/pure like anything nearly medical grade - or again for insect use.

The chemical can also cause fires (rapid exothermic reaction) when it contacts cotton, leather, and wool and variations such as fabric (clothes)/yarn/gloves/etc. To see that in action look at youtube here, although there are plenty more videos to be seen and the first I found to link here. For data links to the above information I wrote see the Gorilla glue MSDS and Loctite super glue brand MSDS for the scientific data - many others can also be found searching online.

After reading more about the glue and the chemicals it contains, I wouldn't recommend using it on living insects (mantises included) for the reasons given in the MSDS data alone. Then add to it the problems that occur in nymphs, there is no valid reason to ever use it. Of course feel free to use it on your mantises, but as stated I will avoid it and recommend others to avoid it as well.

If you do some trials and document the events and results on mantises I would be open to further discussing the matter; however, as it stands there is nothing left to say. I'm not sure why the topic on glue continues on, nor care, but I have spent more than enough time on this matter now. The poor mantis is already dead and further debate is unnecessary and unwarranted.


----------

