# Mantis in a box - 6 days without water and food. Help.



## Atlanthyda (Jun 19, 2018)

Hello

Me and my friend decided to try rising a mantis even though we are total noobs in this matter. We ordered a L4 orchid mantis through the internet (it's quite possible that we were fooled and it's actually below L4), however the guy from whom we bought it didn't inform us that the mantis was sent, and the mail man failed at bringing it at my friend's house... and I don't really have time for this story. The outcome was that the mantis spent a whole 6 days at the mail office - in a box, without water, food and fresh air. 

We were actually surprised it was still alive. It was exhaused and had its limbs tangled in molt - the mantis ate it later, after it got some fresh water and food (some mealworms and ant food dissolved in water) 

Even though it's now noticeably more energetic than it was at first, the mantis doesn't seem to be able to walk. It lays on its side for most of the time, but tries really hard to get up. Also it eats a lot but can't move its legs nor "hands" in coordinated way so must be fed by someone. 

The question is - what else can we do. How bad might be the damage and how can we help it molt since it can't move. Also - is there any chance it's going to be healthy ever again? Or is it just slowly dying? 

Picture 1 was taken soon after it got home (legs stuck in molt). The 2 and 3 show how it's getting better i think... is it?  

Pardon my english and sorry if i broke any rule. Im new here. 

Edit: i forgot to mention - we got the mantis yesterday.


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## Predatorhousepet (Jun 19, 2018)

Your mantis mismolted unfortunately and it will stay that way until it molts again but it looks pretty alert in that last photo so there may be hope of recovery. It is possible to hand feed a deformed mantis and get it to it's next molt, many of us have done it successfully. You will need to help it molt when the time comes by tacking the back legs to the lid of its container with a small amount of tape. Put something soft like moss on the bottom of the container and watch closely to assist if it runs into trouble. 

Besides mealworms you can also try feeding it other insects like fruit flies or small houseflies or moths. If the insect is too big you can cut it into pieces. Then just hold a section with bug guts coming out up to your mantis's mouth and it should recognize it as food and start eating. Good luck and if you need any help just ask.


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## Predatorhousepet (Jun 19, 2018)

Also, use raw unfiltered honey mixed with a small amount of water instead of the ant food (which is basically sugar I think.) Honey is beneficial to mantises and can really perk them up if sick or exhausted. You can feed straight honey to an older mantis but it's too sticky for younger nymphs so you need to mix with water to take away the stickiness.


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## Velve (Jun 19, 2018)

Predatorhousepet said:


> Your mantis mismolted unfortunately and it will stay that way until it molts again but it looks pretty alert in that last photo so there may be hope of recovery. It is possible to hand feed a deformed mantis and get it to it's next molt, many of us have done it successfully. You will need to help it molt when the time comes by tacking the back legs to the lid of its container with a small amount of tape. Put something soft like moss on the bottom of the container and watch closely to assist if it runs into trouble.


Tape only helps when a mantis already started a molt and fell down during the process. This one is completely done for, no point in prolonging the inevitable really. It has no chance of initiating a molt when it can't even move on the ground.


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## Mantis Lady (Jun 19, 2018)

Poor little mantis mismolted in a box.  You can only do what the others are advising and if the mantis has the will to stay alive till next molt.


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## Chemz (Jun 19, 2018)

Yea, If you can get the mantis to it's next molt it could regenerate and possibly heal its legs and be able to walk again.


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## Atlanthyda (Jun 19, 2018)

I'm pretty sure this mantis has enough will to stay alive. It's a little fighter. 

So as i understand we are now supposed to wait till the next molt and not do much more except for feeding it? I'm not entirely sure about the idea with tape though. Am i supposed to do this if something goes wrong or actually use this method from the very beggining when i see the molting comming?  Because i kinda doubt it will be even able to start molting by itself... but then again, im a noob. 

Also, it's a REALLY small mantis yet (picture for scale - it was taken yesterday though so doesn't represent how the mantis looks right now). Isn't it too fragile to glue its legs? My friend came up with idea to hook its legs on a net (something like anti-mosquito material or medicat gauze) instead of using tape. Would that be a bad idea? I just want to learn your opinions, we will do as you advise.

By the way, since you guys certainly know much better, does it look like L4 for you? 

(and thank you all for responding!)


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## Synapze (Jun 19, 2018)

Do you know what the black goo on the lid is?


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## Atlanthyda (Jun 19, 2018)

Synapze said:


> Do you know what the black goo on the lid is?


Yes, it's the mealworm. It's not there anymore, my friend cleaned it up.


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## River Dane (Jun 19, 2018)

I’ve never dealt with a molt this bad before, but I’m guessing the molt occurred less than ~12 hours before you picked the little guy based on the fact that he was alive.

If he molted soon before you picked him up, (s)he’ll probably molt again within the next 2 weeks, assuming it survives. Your best bet would be to ‘attach’ the mantis to the lid of a habitat around this time. If push comes to shove, however, you may have to pick up and hold your mantis for the entirety of the molt.

A more extreme solution is you and your friend alter your sleep schedules so at least one person is awake at all times. From there, whoever is awake should periodically check on the orchid, probably every hour or so, without stressing the mantis out. The best way to do this would be to have a live camera feed to view the mantis from anywhere. Again, this is a little on the extreme end.

Also, I’ve had two mantids successfully molt on the ground before, once because one molted there for some reason, and another time because it fell and somehow completed its molt on the ground. This is unlikely without the mantis being healthy when initiating the molt, but possible.

By the way, don’t use a plastic or glass habitat at this point. Your mantis will have an easier time gripping cheesecloth or some kind of mesh, especially on the lid.

Sorry about your bad first experience, I hope you choose to continue raising mantids anyway! Good luck with your little orchid!


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## Synapze (Jun 19, 2018)

If you're willing/able to put forth the effort, don't lose all hope yet. Even with my limited experience I've already seen many examples of mantids recovering against all odds... especially if they begin to show interest in eating.  

Honestly, I believe the owner usually feels worse than the mantis. Keep us posted and if you're able to keep this little guy alive, your experience may save someone else's mantis.

Good luck!


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## Predatorhousepet (Jun 19, 2018)

Can your mantis move at all on it's own? Like, can it stay sitting up on it's own without falling over like in that third photo you posted...or does it lay on its side completely paralyzed unless you prop it up with something?


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## Mantis Lady (Jun 19, 2018)

@Atlanthyda Something else: did you contact the breeder where this mantis came from? Told him/her what happend to your orchid? If yes, what did they say?


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## MantisGirl13 (Jun 19, 2018)

@Atlanthyda I am so sorry you had a mismolt! If you are not an experienced mantis keeper, getting a mismolted mantis through her next molt will raise you higher on the experience list!   Feed her honey mixed with a little water via toothpick, and hope and prey for the best! If you have any questions, just ask!

- MantisGirl13


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## Atlanthyda (Jun 20, 2018)

Predatorhousepet said:


> Can your mantis move at all on it's own? Like, can it stay sitting up on it's own without falling over like in that third photo you posted...or does it lay on its side completely paralyzed unless you pro﻿p﻿ it up with somethin﻿g?


For most of the time it lies on its side and don't make any movements. However often when it's getting feeded it energeticly moves all its legs, most likely trying to get up, but without our help it's very difficult if not impossible. The "tips" of the legs seem to be paralized to me. I also am very disturbed by how they look - seem to have more "knee joints" than there are supposed to be. If it was a human leg, i'd say it looks like it was broken and then badly healed. I hope i'm just overreacting though, my friend claims it doesn't look so bad to him. 

The first picture below was taken yesterday, the legs are clearly visible. The mantis required help to get up though. Also even though i haven't seen it with my own eyes my friend claims that it's capable of walking on a very small distance, which usually happens right after or at time when it gets feeded. But still - for most of the time it lies down at its side.



Little Mantis said:


> @Atlanthyda Something else: did you contact the breeder where this mantis came from? Told him/her what happend to your orchid? If yes, what did they say?


Well, the contact with this man was already very limited. He wasn't kind enough to inform us about sending the package nor to respond when we emailed him all worried. I don't think he would be kind enough to give us any tips in this situation either.


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## Synapze (Jun 20, 2018)

How is your mantis doing today?


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## Chemz (Jun 20, 2018)

You should probably look into leaving a review on the seller if you haven't done so already. Since it seems so hard to contact him.


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## Atlanthyda (Jun 20, 2018)

Synapze said:


> How is your mantis doing today?


As i mentioned it mostly lies down. However (s)he becomes kind of energetic whenever the feeding time comes (but not only, it seems to be more energetic in general in our opinion).  Most importantly it never refuses to eat and has some really huge appetite. The only problem is its legs which don't allow the mantis stand up without our help. She still tries her best though. 

Tomorrow i will try to make a video showing the kind of movements it makes when getting food (and not only actually) and send it here (if there's such an option).



Chemz said:


> You should probably look into leaving a review on the seller if you haven't done so already. Since it seems so hard to contact him.


  Yes, we are planning to do that.


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## Synapze (Jun 20, 2018)

Atlanthyda said:


> Tomorrow i will try to make a video showing the kind of movements it makes when getting food (and not only actually) and send it here (if there's such an option).


Sounds like progress! ?

If you use YouTube you may need to upload there and share the link, depending on the file size.

I'm glad things are beginning to look up.


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## Mantis Lady (Jun 20, 2018)

Atlanthyda said:


> Tomorrow i will try to make a video showing the kind of movements it makes when getting food (and not only actually) and send it here (if there's such an option).


then we can see how the little mantis is doing.


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## Predatorhousepet (Jun 20, 2018)

Atlanthyda said:


> For most of the time it lies on its side and don't make any movements. However often when it's getting feeded it energeticly moves all its legs, most likely trying to get up, but without our help it's very difficult if not impossible. The "tips" of the legs seem to be paralized to me. I also am very disturbed by how they look - seem to have more "knee joints" than there are supposed to be. If it was a human leg, i'd say it looks like it was broken and then badly healed. I hope i'm just overreacting though, my friend claims it doesn't look so bad to him.
> 
> The first picture below was taken yesterday, the legs are clearly visible. The mantis required help to get up though. Also even though i haven't seen it with my own eyes my friend claims that it's capable of walking on a very small distance, which usually happens right after or at time when it gets feeded. But still - for most of the time it lies down at its side.
> 
> ...


This last picture is encouraging. I just didn't want to give false hope your orchid could molt if it couldn't move at all. If it can stand without being propped up (even if it needed help to get in that position) and move on it's own then there is a possibility it can molt. The fact that it has a good appetite is also a positive sign.


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## MantisGirl13 (Jun 20, 2018)

@Atlanthyda She definitely looks better! Standing on her own is a great sign of recovery for a mismolted mantis. Good job with her, and good luck!

- MantisGirl13


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## Atlanthyda (Jun 21, 2018)

Hello,

As i promised i took a chance to record our mantis getting feeded. Her behaviour today exceeded  our expectations - she was fighting really hard to get up and actually managed to do it on her own! It might be thank to the new "bedding" she got (a piece of cotton cloth she's laying on) since she really seems to have an easier time grasping on it instead of the plastic lid. 

The videos i attached show the whole thing in chronological order. I hope they don't weight too much and will make their way throught.

There's also a picture showing her laying on her side - which is still what she does for the most of the time. As i said, she's only active during feeding (well, at least mostly). 

EDIT: sorry for the quality, i couldn't do better!

View attachment 2.mp4

View attachment 3.mp4

View attachment 4.mp4


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## MantisGirl13 (Jun 21, 2018)

Wow! She definitely looks much better! Keep up the good work, @Atlanthyda! Good job! What are you feeding her? She definitely looks stronger now. 

- MantisGirl13


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## Atlanthyda (Jun 21, 2018)

MantisGirl13 said:


> Wow! She definitely looks much better! Keep up the good work, @Atlanthyda! Good job! What are you feeding her? She definitely looks stronger now.
> 
> - MantisGirl13


She's getting mealworms and honey dissolved in water three times a day (the honey even more often than that). We are planning to provide her also some fruit flies soon.


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## Synapze (Jun 21, 2018)

Atlanthyda said:


> She's getting mealworms and honey dissolved in water three times a day (the honey even more often than that). We are planning to provide her also some fruit flies soon.


Fantastic! She looks so alert. ?

Be careful with the mealworms. I've had a mantis die from injuries received from a mealworm bite. Now I pull off their heads before I serve. From what I've been told, this isn't a common problem, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

?


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## Predatorhousepet (Jun 21, 2018)

Have you tried feeding pieces of insects or are you just mixing the bug guts with honey and water? If you feed her pieces of mealworm does she try to take them from you with her arms or do you have to hold them for her the entire time? I know you said the tips of her legs seem paralyzed and the deformity makes it hard for her to get up but how much functionality do her raptoral arms have? Have you tested this?


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## Atlanthyda (Jun 21, 2018)

Synapze said:


> Fantastic! She looks so alert. ?
> 
> Be careful with the mealworms. I've had a mantis die from injuries received from a mealworm bite. Now I pull off their heads before I serve. From what I've been told, this isn't a common problem, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
> 
> ?


The mealworms our mantis is feeded on now are getting their heads chopped off before too, but good to know for the future! I woudln't have thought that they could be able to bite a mantis so badly ?



Predatorhousepet said:


> Have you tried feeding pieces of insects or are you just mixing the bug guts with honey and water? If you feed her pieces of mealworm does she try to take them from you with her arms or do you have to hold them for her the entire time? I know you said the tips of her legs seem paralyzed and the deformity makes it hard for her to get up but how much functionality do her raptoral arms have? Have you tested this?


At first she was so weak that we haven't even thought of giving her a whole piece of an insect - it was obvious that she wouldn't be able to grab on it so we just feeded her mealworm's guts from a chopstick. So basically the answer is yes, we had to hold the food for her the entire time :c

But since she seems to be getting better we will try to give her a piece of insect in order to see how her arms work. I will keep you guys updated!


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## Chemz (Jun 21, 2018)

(s)he looks better than i thought, and is defiantly trying hard.


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## Mantis Lady (Jun 21, 2018)

She/he for sure has the will to live. It's a good idea to test her front arms. he'/she needs them to grab stuff. give then the abdomen. is more meat/goo for her/him,


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## MantisGirl13 (Jun 21, 2018)

Ok! I have never fed my mantids with mealworms, but whatever you are giving her, it sure is working! Good job, and keep us updated!

- MantisGirl13


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## Atlanthyda (Jun 22, 2018)

UPDATE

Today the situation is still pretty much the same - the mantis lays on its side totally idle for the most of time and gets more active during feeding. We tried to give her a whole piece of an insect but sadly she hasn't shown any interest in grabbing it with her arms. She could only keep the raptors up - which should be visible in the videos (again sorry for the quality). At least she still eats a lot.

I also noticed that one of her legs seem to be entirely broken. I marked the place on a picture below. The other limbs seem to be damaged too but not as badly as this one. Is there a chance it will straighten up (or regrow?) after a molt or should we rather amputate it? Talking about molting, would her raptor arms work more effective or an arm once broken is broken forever? :c 




View attachment 1.mp4

View attachment 2.mp4


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## Chemz (Jun 22, 2018)

Mantids can heal themselves when they molt but from what i understand (depending on the severity of the injury) it can take several molts before it heals completely.


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## Predatorhousepet (Jun 22, 2018)

Try squeezing the guts out of the end of the mealworm then put the goo up to her mouth. Even if she can't grab it with her arms she will still be able to eat some if you hold it for her. You can keep the shaking to a minimum by bracing your hand.

Any broken or missing limbs can potentially be fixed in one or more molts. A limb may grow back or it may stay a stunted nub. Don't amputate a limb unless it is an emergency and absolutely necessary, in this case it is not, a cut can introduce bacteria into the wound and potentially kill a mantis. Its better to err on the side of caution and leave it alone.


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## Mantis Lady (Jun 22, 2018)

When 1 of my mantids was sick I put the goo on a tooth pick and held it before his face. Hold it before his mouth so he can nibble the goo.


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## MantisGirl13 (Jun 22, 2018)

Mantids can regenerate legs. She still looks pretty healthy for a deformed mantis! You are doing a good job with her.

- MantisGirl13


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## Atlanthyda (Jun 23, 2018)

Little Mantis said:


> When 1 of my mantids was sick I put the goo on a tooth pick and held it before his face. Hold it before his mouth so he can nibble the goo.


Oh i just realised how on this videos it looks as if she wasn't getting to eat anything because of the shaking hand. Don't worry, we were only checking the raptoral arms here. Of course there were more attempts but it would take too long to upload here, especially if on any other videos she would just behave the same (not moving arms). After this she got feeded from a toothpick, as usual. 

Thank you guys for being so supporting and helpful. This means a lot!


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## MantisGirl13 (Jun 23, 2018)

I am gad you explained that! For an amateur mantis keeper, you are doing something most people would not know the first thing on how to do it: keeping a mismolted disabled mantis alive. 

- MantisGirl13


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## Synapze (Jun 23, 2018)

Atlanthyda said:


> Thank you guys for being so supporting and helpful. This means a lot!


This is an opportunity for us to learn as well. Keep up the good work and I hope you decide to become a regular here.


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## Mantis Lady (Jun 23, 2018)

we learn from each other here and we hope you can keep your mantis alive, till next molt. and hope your mantis goes trough it well and will be healed.


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## Atlanthyda (Jun 24, 2018)

Update

Situation seems to be pretty stable at the moment - nothing has changed for better but also nothing has changed for worse, which i guess is kind of success. She still eats a lot and tries her best to get up. Since the situation isn't changing we would like to already start preparing for the next molting - which according to our calculations should occur around the beggining of next week (in about 7 days). Aaaand here comes the right part of this post..

How to prepare for this? 

We both have never had a chance to witness a mantis molting before and even though we have watched plenty of videos and read tons of lectures about this lately, i don't think we will ever be truly ready - especially that our mantis is disabled. What we learned from other threads on this forum is that we should keep her in a moist surroundings and make sure she's drank a lot before molting. From other sources we also know that a few days before she will stop eating and shouldn't be forced to it, also that she will start making those characteristic "wavy movements" with her abdomen (if there are any other signs of molting comming please share them here). The question is - what to do when it finally happens?

At this point we are entirely sure she won't be able to climb up a branch on her own. In our conversations we came up with an idea to either tape her to a branch/lid of container once we notice the signs of molting or try hooking her legs to a netting. The only remaining option is to leave her on her own but i guess it wouldn't work out well. 

The actual problem here is when to start intervene? After she stops eating? After she does the movements with her abdomen? Or maybe after she will actually start sheding her skin? 

As many of you surely have some great experience in this matter, please share your tips with us ;-;


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## MantisGirl13 (Jun 24, 2018)

Make sure that she is hanging securely on a net screen. Keep her VERY humid to ensure a successful molt. Let her drink a lot, and make sure she is hanging in a few days, when you think she will molt. 

- MantisGirl13


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## cwebster (Jun 26, 2018)

Glad to see she is doing better. Lovely little mantis! My friend already told me i will be on my own if i get an orchid so am sticking with chinese and ghost mantises. You are very dedicated and brave. Hope your brave little mantis has a successful next molt.


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## Atlanthyda (Jun 27, 2018)

Update

Today she refused to eat for the first time. She's also noticeably less active even during feeding. We are planning to tape her in the right position for molting tomorrow - that is gonna be a tough one so keep your fingers crossed.

We keep humidity of 75-80% in temperature about 25°C. Ever since we got her she was regullary feeded 3 times a day. If there's anything else we could do for her or any of you want to give us some last advices please do it.

And wish us good luck.


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## Chemz (Jun 27, 2018)

Good luck!


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## Synapze (Jun 27, 2018)

I wish I had something helpful to add. Good luck you two.


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## Mantis Lady (Jun 27, 2018)

I hope this means close to molting time. Prepare the molting with taping her,  and then wait... and let do nature its work.

I wish you both Good Luck.

Keep us updated


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## Sticky (Jun 27, 2018)

Who was the breeder?


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## Predatorhousepet (Jun 27, 2018)

A week isn't long enough for her to be ready to molt. Healthy orchids that are eating well generally take at least 2 weeks between molts. Some mantids do take a whole week of fasting to prepare for a molt but I don't think that is what is going on here, she wouldn't have the strength to pull that off. I'm sorry to say this turn in her condition is likely not good. All you can do is keep offering food and see if she accepts it...if she makes it another week then you can start to prepare for signs she might be ready to molt.


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## Atlanthyda (Jun 28, 2018)

Predatorhousepet said:


> A week isn't long enough for her to be ready to molt. Healthy orchids that are eating well generally take at least 2 weeks between molts. Some mantids do take a whole week of fasting to prepare for a molt but I don't think that is what is going on here, she wouldn't have the strength to pull that off. I'm sorry to say this turn in her condition is likely not good. All you can do is keep offering food and see if she accepts it...if she makes it another week then you can start to prepare for signs she might be ready to molt.


It was a bit more than a week - about 10 days assuming that she last molted around 17-18 June. If a mantis stops eating a few days before molting then it gives her about 4-5 days to full 2 weeks. 

Today she's still refusing to eat though. I think our only option is to hang her upside down now - how likely is that she will start eating again?


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## Predatorhousepet (Jun 28, 2018)

With the orchids I've raised, stopping eating that far in advance is highly unusual. Usually it's only a 24 hour thing at most but the majority of my orchids keep eating right up until their molt. I'm usually surprised when they molt because they don't display any outward signs. I suppose there is a slight chance that is what is going on, all you can do is try and hope for the best...but please realize that what you are attempting is extremely difficult even for a seasoned keeper, especially with a mantis that is that disabled, and the chances of it going well are slim. Your case is right on the border of where I'd suggest to euthanize. The only reason I encouraged trying to save her is because the mantis seemed to have a strong will to live, she could move on her own and was eating  well....but any of those things can change suddenly. 

Go ahead and hang her upside down in a few days (even if she stopped eating to prepare for the molt it won't happen right away) but when you use the tape, take away the majority of the stickiness first by applying it to the back of your hand a few times so you can unstick her without harming her feet if necessary. You should try to continue to feed her just in case she changes her mind but she probably won't either way whether she is dying or about to molt.

Seriously I wish you the best of luck, I am rooting for your mantis to live. I want you to succeed here because it would be amazing if your mantis was healed despite the odds not being in her favor. I've seen it happen before so I know it's possible to save a mantis everyone thought would die for sure...hopefully your mantis is one of the lucky ones.


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## MantisGirl13 (Jun 28, 2018)

I hope the molt goes well!

- MantisGirl13


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## Atlanthyda (Jul 1, 2018)

I regret to inform you that our mantis wasn't one of the lucky ones - she didn't make it.

Thank you all for the support and advices you gave us. It was nice to be a part of such a positive community.


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## Mantis Lady (Jul 1, 2018)

Sorry for your loss, You have done everything you could to try to save the life of your mantis


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## MantisGirl13 (Jul 1, 2018)

I am so sorry. You did what you could, but mismiolts are horrible, and sometimes not easy to conquer.

- MantisGirl13


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## Chemz (Jul 2, 2018)

Atlanthyda said:


> I regret to inform you that our mantis wasn't one of the lucky ones - she didn't make it.
> 
> Thank you all for the support and advices you gave us. It was nice to be a part of such a positive community.


I hope this doesn't discourage you from owning any in the future, mismolts are just one of those things that comes with the hobby that no one wants. Sorry to hear the bad news.


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## Predatorhousepet (Jul 2, 2018)

Oh no, I am sorry to hear that. You did your best to save her, a beginner keeping a severely mismolted orchid alive for even that long was amazing in itself. You should try again and not let this bad experience keep you from owning another mantis.


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