# Color morph experiment in Phyllocrania paradoxa (Environmental trigger).



## JonRich (Feb 26, 2015)

I've searched the forum for a similar experiment with zero results (a lot of F/S adds though, lol). Well I get bored and I have the tanks and my female Ghost is on her 3rd ooth, so there is no shortage there . So why not, rite?

I don't know much about this, I'm just going by observation. My female is dark brown and my male is more of a cream color. They all hatch out black and "any like". I believe the gene is present for almost any color range between brown to green . I believe the trigger is environmental (foliage and humidity) and takes dominance after the first molt . Too dry and triggy and they will go brown, more humid and leafy green foliage and they will go lighter brown to green . I see very few people keeping them in a naturalistic enclosure. (Mostly small cups with twigs. So I assume most tend to be brown).

I have a well planted tank that's humid with live green plants . I'll try to build another tank to mimic a dryer tank with just dried twigs/leaves and mist less frequently . Then split the hatchlings between the two tanks for a more controlled environmental experiment . (I have an ooth that's anout 2-3 weeks from hatching).

The plan is to see if more brown mantis are produced in the "dry, dead twig tank" and more green mantis are produced in the "wet, leafy green tank"

I'll keep you posted.

Not sure why it won't let me post pix . I'll make a short video later of the two tanks .


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## JonRich (Feb 26, 2015)

Forum wouldn't let me post pix of the tanks . So I made a video


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## CosbyArt (Feb 26, 2015)

JonRich said:


> Too dry and triggy and they will go brown, more humid and leafy green foliage and they will go lighter brown to green . I see very few people keeping them in a naturalistic enclosure. (Mostly small cups with twigs. So I assume most tend to be brown).


Out of my hundreds of nymphs I've hatched and kept in cups lately, L1 nymphs are always 100% brown no matter the species I've had (even if some appear to have color "spots"). I actually get about a 50 - 50 split on them going to green by the 2nd molt.

Also I tend to keep most lately in small groups of 5 nymphs or so, as having 100's of cups is not possible, and nymphs kept in the same cup even do the 50 - 50 split by L2. Then as they progress in instar molting stages some will revert to brown (from green).

So for true testing it would have to range over many instar stages, and perhaps variations of nymphs kept communal or separate. I also imagine species will vary on the results too (much like Parthenogenesis), and even sex (as my later instar females tend to always be green).

Although I am quite curious of seeing some research go into this as it is rather interesting. If I could help let me know as I have several more ooths to incubate soon.








JonRich said:


> Not sure why it won't let me post pix . I'll make a short video later of the two tanks .


I imagine you are referring to uploading the images direct to the forum correct(attaching them to your post)? As members (supported or not) have a very limited amount of image space.

You will have to delete your older images to add new ones. Or do like the majority here and upload files to PhotoBucket and use the "Image" post button to add your images.


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## JonRich (Feb 26, 2015)

Ahh . Interesting . Well these are 10g verts . I assume I can keep about 5-7 nymphs in each to adult molt. You make a good point about the sexes . Maybe I'll just do this experiment with just males , since females tend to go green more frequently regardless .

I just got my GoProHERO4Silver , so bring on the videos!!! That will solve the uploading issue . 

I'll just see how many hatch out of this first ooth and see if I can have enough males for the test .


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## mantiseater (Feb 26, 2015)

how do you make an enclosure like that?


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## JonRich (Feb 26, 2015)

mantiseater said:


> how do you make an enclosure like that?


Which one? They are both regular 10g aquarium converted to a vertical orientation . And planted with some Ficus I got cheap at HomeDepot and sticks and twigs I collected locally . This is the build thread. http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34493

The "green " one is one of a few tanks I built for poison dart frogs . Same concept , less vents . And I used Great Stuff spray foam (gap filler foam in a can ) also sold at HomeDepot for the background . Carved it to shape with a box-cutter and bread knife. Then covered with pure aquarium grade silicone and pressed in some organic substrate (petemoss, ABG,TreeFiber, sphagnum,etc). Once that's done, I lay in a drainage layer of rocks or hydroton , then a screen barrier , then soil ("ABG" Atlanta Botanical Garden mix), pretty much anything to hold moisture and promote plant growth on the background. Then plant with tropical plants. Mist and good lighting (6700k LED and flourecent) and wait . Plants are mostly philodendron, ficus, mini orchids , Neoregelia bromeliads, macgravia and whatever else I can get my hands on. I'm lucky to have a really good friend that's a botanist at the Museum Of Natural History.

Hope that helps .


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## LAME (Feb 27, 2015)

I kept my male (Nymbit) in a humid tank all his younger to subadult cycles... He is incredibly green. I too have read the same online which gave me the idea to do it when I received my 2 ghosts. I kept his brother (Cyprus) in a much less humid home, and he was always darker throughout his time under my care(traded with dmina in exchange for a female.)

Also.... Despite what people say, I keep ALL my mantids in suiting (in my opinion...) homes. Bigger species get larger tanks whereas smallers guys get smaller ones, but I will not home a mantis in a cup... To me that's cruel and is in the same as being locked in a closet or being in jail. Lol  

I keep mine happy.


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## Bugmankeith (Feb 28, 2015)

What if you added colorful fake flowers in one cage with the green leaves, say Pink, think that would alter color?


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## aNisip (Feb 28, 2015)

I'm pretty sure Phyllocrania paradoxa color morph is determined by genotypes, not environment (like other species, such as T sinensis or M religiosa) I could be completely wrong tho, but I thought for sure awhile back, older members did this experiment and found the cause for color was genes...


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## JonRich (Mar 3, 2015)

Bugmankeith said:


> What if you added colorful fake flowers in one cage with the green leaves, say Pink, think that would alter color?


I'm not sure. But ghost mantis seem to be earth toned. (brown-green). Not sure if pink foliage will make a difference.


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## JonRich (Mar 3, 2015)

AndrewNisip said:


> I'm pretty sure Phyllocrania paradoxa color morph is determined by genotypes, not environment (like other species, such as T sinensis or M religiosa) I could be completely wrong tho, but I thought for sure awhile back, older members did this experiment and found the cause for color was genes...


I did a pretty intense search of the forum before making this thread and didn't find anything to prove or disprove this experiment. Maybe i missed something in the filters. I'd be interested in reading any publishings about this in Ghost Mantis. Because curiosity usually gets the best of me and i have the time and resources, i'll proceed with this test. I wonder if they can distinguish between live plants vs artificial plants? If not, i can make this more controlled and do more tanks. Building and growing in a live tank is a task in itself. But if green artificial leaves are fine. I can do the following.

*(10g verts)*

*Green artificial leaves/branches and humid with just males

*Green artificial leaves/branches and humid with just females

*Green artificial leaves/branches and humid with mixed sexes

*(10g verts)*

*Brown dried leaves/branches and less humid with just males

*Brown dried leaves/branches and less humid with just females

*Brown dried leaves/branches and less humid with mixed sexes

Lighting and food will be the same. All individuals will be kept under these conditions from hatching to adult molt. (6 individuals in each, 3:3 in the mixed sex tanks)

*Parents for this test will be Dark Brown female paired with a Light Brown male. (No history on their parents unfortunately)*

~Jon


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## Danny. (Mar 3, 2015)

I never added green leaves just brown branches and always ended up with green Ghosties.


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## JonRich (Mar 3, 2015)

Danny. said:


> I never added green leaves just brown branches and always ended up with green Ghosties.


What percentage? "Always" is a very exact statement, as in 100%. (all the time; continuously; uninterruptedly)


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## PlayingMantis (Mar 3, 2015)

I currently have 6 L5-6 ghost females living communally in a container with sticks and paper towels. So far, 5 are definitely green, and the other one is greenish brown, which seems to be on the verge of turning green. In the past, I had a few ghost pairs and the adult females were green and the males brown. I think it would be nice to have some different colored ghosts for a change - I've seen pictures of adult female ghosts ranging from light tan to dark brown, which are pretty neat.


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## JonRich (Mar 4, 2015)

PlayingMantis said:


> I currently have 6 L5-6 ghost females living communally in a container with sticks and paper towels. So far, 5 are definitely green, and the other one is greenish brown, which seems to be on the verge of turning green. In the past, I had a few ghost pairs and the adult females were green and the males brown. I think it would be nice to have some different colored ghosts for a change - I've seen pictures of adult female ghosts ranging from light tan to dark brown, which are pretty neat.


What color were the parents ?


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## bobericc (Mar 5, 2015)

Im sure humidity and temps plays a big role, as it is a dead leaf mimic, ghosties come from madagascar, where the climate has only two seasons. A hot and rainy season where perhaps the green moorph is more likely to take place, and a cool dry season when im sure brown ghosties make the majority. Good luck on your experiment i know similar ones have been done on theoprobus and pseudocreo to draw out those pinks.


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## JonRich (Mar 5, 2015)

bobericc said:


> Im sure humidity and temps plays a big role, as it is a dead leaf mimic, ghosties come from madagascar, where the climate has only two seasons. A hot and rainy season where perhaps the green moorph is more likely to take place, and a cool dry season when im sure brown ghosties make the majority. Good luck on your experiment i know similar ones have been done on theoprobus and pseudocreo to draw out those pinks.


This makes perfect sense..... +1

~Jon


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## Danny. (Mar 5, 2015)

bobericc said:


> Im sure humidity and temps plays a big role, as it is a dead leaf mimic, ghosties come from madagascar, where the climate has only two seasons. A hot and rainy season where perhaps the green moorph is more likely to take place, and a cool dry season when im sure brown ghosties make the majority. Good luck on your experiment i know similar ones have been done on theoprobus and pseudocreo to draw out those pinks.


 Not just Madagascar but range across the African continent.Old but a cool read.

http://mantodea.myspecies.info/sites/mantodea.myspecies.info/files/MSG%20NL%2023%20(February%202002).pdf


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## bobericc (Mar 5, 2015)

The page is not found, mind reposting?


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## bobericc (Mar 5, 2015)

Also they may have spread through out africa, much like the chinese and mediterranean mantis is now naturalized to the US. im pretty sure they were first discovered in madagascar and have probably become naturalized to most of east africa because of their hardiness and general adaptability. But i could be wrong.


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## JonRich (Mar 12, 2015)

The first clutch started to hatch. But i fear i was away for a few days traveling for work and the container remained a bit dry. There were 2 nymphs that emerged, but were dried and partially stuck to the ooth. I now have it misted lightly 2x a day to try to keep any others that hatch from succumbing to the same faith. Any tips during this time would be great.

~Jon


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## PlayingMantis (Mar 19, 2015)

JonRich said:


> What color were the parents ?


Not sure, I got mine as L2s from someone else.


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## JonRich (Apr 14, 2015)

Finally had a single nymph hatch, from the 2nd ooth laid. Still no activity from the 1st ooth other than that one dried nymph). I have 5 ooths total from this female.

Do they usually hatch one by one , or all together? I've seen videos of them hatching together , so not sure whats going on.


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## CosbyArt (Apr 16, 2015)

JonRich said:


> Finally had a single nymph hatch, from the 2nd ooth laid. Still no activity from the 1st ooth other than that one dried nymph). I have 5 ooths total from this female.
> 
> Do they usually hatch one by one , or all together? I've seen videos of them hatching together , so not sure whats going on.


I imagine Ghosts would be like the other species I've hatched in that regard, the ooth got too hot and too dry. I hatch several ooths using a heating pad to help keep up the temps and had the same result - a few nymphs 1 to 7 would hatch at a time and did so for a bit over a month averaging about 2 days between hatches. Overall the total hatched count was way down too. Seemed the heat would quickly evaporate any misting I did, so the ooths got to dry, even when I tried misting several times every day.

I'm curious did you try a heating pad or such, or have high temps where you incubated the ooth?


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## JonRich (Apr 17, 2015)

CosbyArt said:


> I imagine Ghosts would be like the other species I've hatched in that regard, the ooth got too hot and too dry. I hatch several ooths using a heating pad to help keep up the temps and had the same result - a few nymphs 1 to 7 would hatch at a time and did so for a bit over a month averaging about 2 days between hatches. Overall the total hatched count was way down too. Seemed the heat would quickly evaporate any misting I did, so the ooths got to dry, even when I tried misting several times every day.
> 
> I'm curious did you try a heating pad or such, or have high temps where you incubated the ooth?


They were all in the tank with the female. I just cut the branch with the ooth on it and placed it in a small deli cup with a breathable lid. The tank is whatever room temp is, low to mid 70's and i mist once a day. I even tried placing one ooth in a tank that is a constant 60% humidity.

Not sure whats going on but thanks for the reply. I suspected the first ooth was dry, but the second one was kept at decent humidity.

~Jon


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## jrh3 (Apr 18, 2015)

Mine always hatch a few at a time. But it sounds like yours have dried out. I always keep a moist paper towel in the bottom of the deli cup plus mist every other day.


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