# the bigger the feeder bug, the bigger the mantis gets?



## Joe (Jun 13, 2009)

I heard a while ago that if a mantis is fed on the biggest sized bugs it can catch and eat, particularly butterflys &amp; moths with their huge wings and strength, that the mantis will adapt and get bigger somehow like training ur muscles to get bigger. Have you guys tried it or heard anything about it? im gonna try an experiment myself. I've fed mantids pretty large moths &amp; butterflies before(Pictures below) and they seem to go crazy over flapping bugs no matter how big, but I havent maintained a diet like this.


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## Katnapper (Jun 14, 2009)

I haven't had enough of these type feeders to keep any on this kind of a diet exclusively, so I have no idea. Haven't heard of the theory either... but I'm interested to know your results if you do an informal study! I smiled when I read, "they seem to go crazy over flapping bugs no matter how big." Because that's so true, lol! They get so excited... :lol: You'll have to let us know how it goes if you do the experiment.


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## hibiscusmile (Jun 14, 2009)

I use wax moths and hornets, but they are not too big, had lunas but too pretty to feed them!


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 14, 2009)

Yes Joe, this is the well-known Superfreak Principle that says that optimal growth is obtained if a predator feeds on the largest pray it can manage, thereby minimizing the energy required to capture prey. The other factor in insects is temperature, but there are several limiting factors. You probably know the technique used for mantis species where the male ecloses sometimes several weeks before the female and is over the hill before the female is ready to mate. In nature, this is fine; he simply goes off and finds a female from an ooth that hatched earlier, thereby reducing the effects of inbreeding, but in captivity, one strategy is to feed him less and keep him at a lower temperature and increase the food and temp. for the female. The result is not tiny males and huge females but a reduced intermolt period (stadium) in the female and a slightly longer one in the male.

There is no doubt that an optimally fed mantis will be somewhat larger that a minimally fed one, and will reach adulthood rather faster, but the differences are not great. One direct reason for this is that, like humans, the mantis stops eating when it is full.

An indirect reason is that the maximum size of most creatures is genetically controlled. When a nymph or small mantis is confronted by a predator, it can scamper off and hide, an excellent strategy. Large adult mantids, who can't scamper, like a peacock for example [thank you Peter!], tend to rely on cryptic coloration (camo) or their attractive --to us -- but rather futile deimatic (warning) displays. (There's a long chapter on this in Prete's book). Everything else being equal, a predator like a bird is going to pick off a large (more easily seen) slower moving mantis than a smaller one, thereby fulfilling the Superfreak Principle itself.

I've got to say, though, Joe, that for me, one of the pleasures of keeping mantids is seeing the amazing skill amd alacrity with which they capture large flying prey!

All of this is pretty basic, non controversial science folks. Is it helpful, or do your eyes begin to glaze over after the first para? If they do, please tell me!


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## massaman (Jun 14, 2009)

maybe thats why my female gemmatus mantis is half the size of ones caught in the wild but they still lay regular size ooths regardless of how big they are!


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## [email protected] (Jun 14, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]That would be cool, good info Phil :blink: [/SIZE]


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## agent A (Jun 15, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> I use wax moths and hornets, but they are not too big, had lunas but too pretty to feed them!


I hope you don't feed lunas to mantids. I love lunas.


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## agent A (Jun 15, 2009)

Joe said:


> I heard a while ago that if a mantis is fed on the biggest sized bugs it can catch and eat, particularly butterflys &amp; moths with their huge wings and strength, that the mantis will adapt and get bigger somehow like training ur muscles to get bigger. Have you guys tried it or heard anything about it? im gonna try an experiment myself. I've fed mantids pretty large moths &amp; butterflies before(Pictures below) and they seem to go crazy over flapping bugs no matter how big, but I havent maintained a diet like this.


The second picture, what type of mantis is it and how old is it?


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## Joe (Jun 15, 2009)

thats for the great discussion on thsi topic and all your info guys! thanks especially PhilinYuma. Yeah, the only thing i noticed relating this topic in the wild is, i noticed in european mantids, was when i was camping in two different areas in washington during summer, one in eastern washington and one area near the border of oregon &amp; washington. the ones at this border were like %25 larger than the ones at eastern washington. and the i noticed a food difference too, the smallers ones in eastern washington had like an all you can eat buffet. There were like damselflies by the millions there and grasshoppers at least by the thousands, all i noticed was they were fatter and waay more active lol like when i got close to them they would run pretty fast out of my way. but the ones at the border had less food, but big grey grasshopers and a pretty decent amount of big moths there. and the temperature there was not noticably hotter. i was only at each location a few days though so im not too sure. i would have to really studdy everything if i wanted a good conclusion. and the mantis in the second picture is a P. Wahlbergii if thats how you spell it. I believe it was L2 at that time.


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## hibiscusmile (Jun 15, 2009)

no dont feed them to mantis, put them outside and hope for the best....


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## Christian (Jun 16, 2009)

> the bigger the feeder bug, the bigger the mantis gets?


No.


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## ABbuggin (Jun 16, 2009)

Christian said:


> No.


That is what I was thinking......


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## The_Asa (Jun 16, 2009)

ABbuggin said:


> That is what I was thinking......


 :lol: Me too. I thought it had more to do with genetics involved.


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## Rick (Jun 17, 2009)

Christian said:


> No.


Same here because the size wouldn't matter because it would be the same as one large food item or several smaller sized food items. Also most mantids of the same species are the same size.


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## Orin (Jun 17, 2009)

I wonder if I would be taller if my parents had fed me larger meals or from bigger plates. Maybe the giants of lore weren't fairytales but just people who were fed bigger food off bigger plates?


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## Joe (Jun 17, 2009)

lol maybe orin! i wish my parents fed me more  i know we would be bulkier, but then, just like roughly 4000 years ago, earth had 50 percent more oxygen! scientists did tests on increasing oxegen and air pressure on sea bugs, they got 400 times bigger. Boy if someone can, try putting a mantis in a hyperberic oxygen chamber and raising it on increase oxygen and it will grow i dunno how much bigger! Maybe higher oxegen helped in making us bigger too, theres alot more than just oxegen though as i found out, but hundreds of 9-12 foot human skeletons have been found all around the world


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## Joe (Jun 17, 2009)

yea i guess it is just the amount of food. but i'll try and do an experiment to see wat happens. this is an interesting topic though!


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## Christian (Jun 17, 2009)

4000 years ago the oxygen level was as today. If you refer to the Carboniferous, that age was 300-360 million years ago... Even though oxygen level was higher then, gigantism in arthropods at that time had various reasons not linked to oxygen levels alone.

Regarding this phrase:



> Boy if someone can, try putting a mantis in a hyperberic oxygen chamber and raising it on increase oxygen and it will grow i dunno how much bigger!


I wonder what people learn in school biology nowadays... :blink:


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## Joe (Jun 17, 2009)

haha yea we learned something completely different according to evidence, in school. i'll move what im gonna say in "other disscussions" forum tho cause its off topic. buuut yea theres more than just oxegen, its like magnetic feild and a buncha other stuff. i love science too so i will test to see wat happens to my mantis. lol i've been feeding my mantids large moths lately and they're going crazy over them being knocked around even. the ghost mantids just dont give up without a fight


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## agent A (Jun 17, 2009)

Well my creobroter female ate a fly her size, but dropped the last of it because she was full.


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## massaman (Jun 19, 2009)

does giving a mantis bigger prey also help make bigger and better ooths?


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## Katnapper (Jun 19, 2009)

I would think the amount of consistent food would be a more influential factor in bigger, healthier ooths. I don't think actual prey size has anything to do with it.


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 20, 2009)

Yeah, there tends to be a range in both mantid and ooth size from "normal minimum" to "normal maximum" with a few outliers (exceptions to the rule), and no amount of optimal feeding, humidity or music is going to affect that. However, mantids or most any animal that obtains maximum food at minimal effort consistently is, everything else being equal, going to tend toward the larger size of the norm.


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