# Empusa mantis



## yen_saw

I couldn't find the previous link for this species so created a new one.

Both of my _Empusa pennata_ male matured into adult 3 weeks after a one-month cooler period (with short daylight hour). They moulted twice in 3-week span but females are not buying it and remain the same stage as before the cooling (which is two molts behind). Guess in the future i need to extend the cold period to at least two months for a possible simultanous growth to adulthood. What a bummer....


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## Vulcain

hi !

It's the nicest mantis of France !


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## macro junkie

this is why im after the devil mantis..i love there antennas ,amazing mantid


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## idolomantis

in france and spain i see alot of these...


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## spawn

The first picture reminded me of my Gongylus male. I rarely see this mantis as adult, so it was good that you post pictures! Thanks.


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## rifkygirl

wow, that's one awesome looking mantid..


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## yen_saw

Thanks!

Caught the female moulting into subadult moment ago so took some pics, and even a short clip. She is the second one to moult into subadult.
















and while waiting for her to moult i took some pics of the other subadult female, she is gorgeous!
















and took a crappy pic of the mantis on next cage too - a pair of Arizona unicorn right before they mate






and by the time i got back she has almost done  











here is the short movie clip  sorry i didn't make it upside down so you have to turn your head 90 deg left :lol:


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## hibiscusmile

the other female, looks like she is at a disco party, how are they doing? Do u have males?


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## spawn

Why do the last few pictures look like the mantis is three or four times the size of the original skin?


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## yen_saw

hibiscusmile said:


> the other female, looks like she is at a disco party, how are they doing? Do u have males?


THey doing great Becky  yes i have two adult males, so time to speed up the female  



spawn said:


> Why do the last few pictures look like the mantis is three or four times the size of the original skin?


Well the fact that a mantis "swell up" a lot right after molting and that the wrinkling shed appear smaller make both looks very different in size.


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## yen_saw

NOw that i have a careful look and advice from other, i think this could be _Empusa fasciata _instead.


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## Felix Hamann

This is definitely _E. fasciata_!

_Empusa pennata_ doesn't have these Lobes on the Coxas of the first Walking-leg-pair.

Wonderful ones you have there! My _E. pennatas_ from Portugal are still frozen  

I'm from Germany, so pardon for my (probably) bad english.

best regards, Felix


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## yen_saw

Thank Felix, i checked it with the document from Alfred Kaltenbach. Jose R. Correas actually help me to confirm the species.


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## Christian

Where are they from? If they are from W Europe, it's clearly _pennata_. I can't see the lobes very well from this perspective.


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## Felix Hamann

Thea are from Poland (his Homepage says so), so it has to be _fasciata_   

The lobes are well-seen on this picture: Link

best regards, Felix aka Fischeversenker


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## yen_saw

Sorry i think it is misleading on my webpage regarding the location where this species is from. The specimen was traded by a person (Kamil - papilio) from Poland who mentioned to me that this species was collected at Montenegro, Spain. Now Christian i remember you told me _E. fasciata _can only be found on the Eastern Europe, E. Italy to India to be exact. While _E. pennata_ exists only to the West of Europe (Spain including). Anyway, whether this sepcies exist in Spain or there is a mix up from the collector, it appear that this is _Empusa fasciata_.

This is the lobe pattern for the adult male on the coxa of the middle leg, the lobe on the coxa hind leg is also visible on the first pic.











zoom in (MJ, wished i have your camera  )






Although it is just a subadult female speciemn, the lobe size is quite apparent so based on A. Kaltenbach key this should be_ Empusa fasciata_.






zoom in






and this one too






A. Kaltenbach






ANother guideline for different empusa species received from Jose


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## andy hood

beautifull stunning mantid yen


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## Felix Hamann

I don't trust the words of your trader  --&gt; again: _fasciata_.

Good Luck with them.  

best regards, Felix


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## Kruszakus

Just to clarify - we do not have Empusa species in Poland - the only species capable of surviving in our conditions is _Mantis religiosa_, but it is an extremely rare thing to witness it in the wild.


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## Felix Hamann

Yeah, i looked up the [Herkunft] Origin(?) of _fasciata and pennata_, and saw that they don't live in Poland. Im sorry for writing this, and thanks for correcting(?).

best regards, Felix


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## macro junkie

i want i want


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## Christian

The specimens seem to belong to _fasciata_. So it can't be from Spain.


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## empusapennata

Christian said:


> The specimens seem to belong to _fasciata_. So it can't be from Spain.


Some recent documents show that it's possible that in Spain we have both fasciata and pennata but pennata were generally more abundant.

look this document

http://www.amigosgalacho.com/caja1/caja2/c...Entomol2001.pdf

Sorry: It's in Spanish language.

Regards

Jose


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## Felix Hamann

Wow!

I thought there were much more Mantids in Spain, for example: _Rivetina_, _Pseudoyersinia_ and, of course, _Apteromantis_. But the document says there is only: _Ameles_, _Mantis_, _Iris_, _Empusa_ and _Perlamantis_ - is this possible?!

best regards, Felix


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## empusapennata

Two pictures of pennata male from the last spring in Spain












for taxonomy and comparison with pics of yen_saw's male.

Best Regards

José


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## empusapennata

Felix Hamann said:


> Wow!I thought there were much more Mantids in Spain, for example: _Rivetina_, _Pseudoyersinia_ and, of course, _Apteromantis_. But the document says there is only: _Ameles_, _Mantis_, _Iris_, _Empusa_ and _Perlamantis_ - is this possible?!
> 
> best regards, Felix


It's possible because that document is a taxonomic study of a municipality located in the province of Zaragoza, Aragon, Spain.

In Spain (with Canary Islands) »

Amorphoscelididae

Perlamantis alliberti Guerin-Meneville 1843

Empusidae

Empusa pennata (Thunberg 1815)

Empusa fasciata (Brullé, 1836)??

Blepharopsis mendica (Fabricius, 1775) only Canary I.

Hypsicorypha gracilis (Burmeister, 1838) only Canary I.

Mantidae

Ameles africana Bolivar 1914

Ameles assoi (Bolivar 1873)

Ameles decolor (Charpentier 1825)

Ameles picteti (Saussure, 1869)

Ameles spallanzania (Rossi 1792)

Ameles fracilis (Brullé, 1838) Only Canary I.

Ameles Limbata (Brullé, 1838)

Apteromantis aptera (Fuente 1894)

Geomantis larvoides Pantel 1896

Iris oratoria (Linnaeus 1758)

Mantis religiosa (Linnaeus 1758)

Pseudoyersinia paui (Bolivar 1898)

Pseudoyersinia canariensis Chopard 1942 only Canary I.

Pseudoyersinia betancuriae (Wiemers, 1993) only Canary I

Pseudoyersinia pilipes (Chopard, 1954) only Canary I.

Pseudoyersinia subaptera (Chopard, 1942) only Canary I

Pseudoyersinia teydeana (Chopard, 1942) only Canary I.

Rivetina baetica (Rambur 1838)

Sphodromantis viridis (Forskal 1775)

Regards


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## Christian

That document just summerizes the insects found during that study, as far as I understood it. So not all species naturally occurring in Spain are listed. However, I doubt the identification of _Empusa fasciata_ in Spain. It's more likely the specimen(s) were confounded with _E. pennata_. Some names are wrongly spelled, as _Ameles spallanz*ian*a_, which has to be _A. spallanz*ani*a_. Further, no evidence whatsoever is given to confirm _E. fasciata_. I'm still convinced that _E. pennata_ is the only W-European species of this genus.


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## empusapennata

Christian said:


> That document just summerizes the insects found during that study, as far as I understood it. So not all species naturally occurring in Spain are listed. However, I doubt the identification of _Empusa fasciata_ in Spain. It's more likely the specimen(s) were confounded with _E. pennata_. Some names are wrongly spelled, as _Ameles spallanz*ian*a_, which has to be _A. spallanz*ani*a_. Further, no evidence whatsoever is given to confirm _E. fasciata_. I'm still convinced that _E. pennata_ is the only W-European species of this genus.


I do agree with you on the point that in Spain. Now we've only _Empusa pennata_ nor Kaltenbach A. Bolivar, I. or Morales Agacino has any

possible occurrence in Periodical Literature but this is not the first time that species have moved in response to climate or ecological change.

And always is time for a possible First record or confirmation of the occurrence.

Best Regards


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## Christian

Of course, but it has to be foolproof - say a deposited specimen and/or a photo showing the diagnostic characters of the specimen found. There are a lot of papers with ID faults in it. It's difficult to determine if a species list published somewhere is correct. There are not many real mantid experts, so a lot of mis-IDs occur. All in all a difficult situation.


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## Morpheus uk

Luckily enough someone else went to spain and found some more empusa and is letting me breed em, hope i dont scew it up though


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## yen_saw

Felix Hamann said:


> I don't trust the words of your trader  --&gt; again: _fasciata_.Good Luck with them.
> 
> best regards, Felix


We are totally relying on the information from European traders for mantis from Europe, as a hobbyist i don't know why if he would want to give us a wrong information which Kamil appear to be very certain. Well, at least the species is identified.



macro junkie said:


> i want i want


Start packing your backpack and travel to Spain this coming Summer MJ, Morpheus might be able to join you  YOu are lucky don't have to travel across the ATlantic ocean to find this species  



empusapennata said:


> Two pictures of pennata male from the last spring in Spain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for taxonomy and comparison with pics of yen_saw's male.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> José


Thanks José, those are beautiful pics of your _E. pennata_.


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## Morpheus uk

Dunno what mine are, they came from alicante spain, though not sure about the other 2,


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## yen_saw

Morpheus uk said:


> Dunno what mine are, they came from alicante spain, though not sure about the other 2,


If your empusa is large enough to observe the lobes, you can tell which species, check the chart attached previously for details. However, both E. pennicornis and E. pennata lobes are quite similar.

One of my female E. fasciata finally molted into adult, what a long wait! i can only hope the month + old male can live long enough to mate.


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## Morpheus uk

Coinky dink, was just reading about thses, seem to be ticky to rear hope it all goes well for you and me, btw just now i read that males are ready to mate in 4 day! seems tofast,


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## Morpheus uk

Mine where DOA


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## yen_saw

Morpheus uk said:


> Coinky dink, was just reading about thses, seem to be ticky to rear hope it all goes well for you and me, btw just now i read that males are ready to mate in 4 day! seems tofast,


For me the tricky part was optimum diapause requirement. Best of luck to yours. My female is merely a week old but i am sure the 6-week old male are ready for sure.



Morpheus uk said:


> Mine where DOA


I thought you have some readily available with you?


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## yen_saw

Is it possible for the female to deposit an ooth just a week as adult??? I have a large net cage prepared for them, and put 2 males and the female together 2 days ago. I didn't witness mating but i was not looking at all. Could it be that the male mated with the female which accerelate or induce the process of ooth laying?!?! I have the chance to check the cage for the first time in 2 days and there is an ooth next to the adult female :blink: ANyone with the experience with Empusa species please shed some lights here i would like to make sure the second female won't lay ootheca too soon unmated. I will take a pic of that ooth when I got the chance.


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## Kruszakus

Yeah, mating always accelerates the process of depositing ooths - in my case, most females of various species held on for a couple of weeks, even if power-fed and kept at high temperatures. Then, after mating - sometimes even a few hours after - they were laying their first ooths.

For example - I let my O. Distinctus eat zounds of crickets and wax moths for ten days or so, and then I introduced the male to her - it was around midnight. The next morning I checked on them, and the female had deposited her first ooth - and it was fertile.

My other Empusidae have been adult for about two weeks - no ooths so far, even though they have a nearly constant supply of food - so I'd wager the possibility, that your ooth may be fertile.


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## Morpheus uk

Some one else just went on holiday and found 2 so gave em to me to breed


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## Christian

_Empusa_ are really quick developers. If she laid an ooth after a week, she must have mated. Unmated females lay their first ooth much later. Of course a pairing doesn't warrant a fertilization, so let him mate with her several times. But be careful: Adult females may suddenly turn to male killers.


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## Kruszakus

How about female-female agression?


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## Christian

Low, as usual. The aggression towards males is also low, but when males start flying around they are confounded with prey and captured.


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## Kruszakus

I had a situation with my Idolomorpha lateralis, when a sub-adult femala attacked an adult female, because she wanted to snatch a house fly, that was hanging from the aduld female's leg - fortunately nothing wrong had happened - they seem to get along pretty well.


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## yen_saw

Kruszakus said:


> Yeah, mating always accelerates the process of depositing ooths - in my case, most females of various species held on for a couple of weeks, even if power-fed and kept at high temperatures. Then, after mating - sometimes even a few hours after - they were laying their first ooths. For example - I let my O. Distinctus eat zounds of crickets and wax moths for ten days or so, and then I introduced the male to her - it was around midnight. The next morning I checked on them, and the female had deposited her first ooth - and it was fertile.
> 
> My other Empusidae have been adult for about two weeks - no ooths so far, even though they have a nearly constant supply of food - so I'd wager the possibility, that your ooth may be fertile.


Yes, i was just surprise to see an adult female mantis can produce ootheca that soon. If it wasn't for the cage is newly set-up i would have thought it was an old ooth accidentaly left out previously. :lol: 

and guess what, today i went to check the cage again after the reunion dinner. Lo and behold! I found another ooth!!! looks like she can't wait to unload her "stuff" :lol: this time i finally caught them mating.







in the pic below you can see two oothecae on the left








Christian said:


> _Empusa_ are really quick developers. If she laid an ooth after a week, she must have mated. Unmated females lay their first ooth much later. Of course a pairing doesn't warrant a fertilization, so let him mate with her several times. But be careful: Adult females may suddenly turn to male killers.


I guess she must have been mated as well, they are two very matured male in the same cage. GUess it is probably good to remove one of the male just in case. Now i wish my second female can mature soon.


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## Kruszakus

Geez, I wish we had net cages like this one available in Poland, it would make things much easier for many of those who are mostly into Empusidae.


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## Christian

Those net cages are nice, I also use similar ones frequently. However, they are not suited for every Empusid at any time. During winter, they are not as useful for tropical species, as they are badly isolated and you need (a) strong lamp(s) and hence more energy to achieve the required temperature. They are very best for overwintering _Empusa_ on the balcony or in a cold corridor and for being placed in full sun or half-shadow in summertime. Yen, of course, has fewer climate problems in Texas. :lol: But we Gulf-Stream dependents over here are not as lucky...


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## macro junkie

Kruszakus said:


> Geez, I wish we had net cages like this one available in Poland, it would make things much easier fom many of those, who are mostly into Empusidae.


i just bought 3 big ones and 3 small ones,. mantis place i got them ships to uk..u can do the same..


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## Kruszakus

What was the cost of the cages and the shipment?

By the way - this morning I found out, that my first I. lateralis male moulted for the last time, and I should be ready to introduce him to my females on the Valentine's Day - yeah!


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## yen_saw

Christian said:


> Those net cages are nice, I also use similar ones frequently. However, they are not suited for every Empusid at any time. During winter, they are not as useful for tropical species, as they are badly isolated and you need (a) strong lamp(s) and hence more energy to achieve the required temperature. They are very best for overwintering _Empusa_ on the balcony or in a cold corridor and for being placed in full sun or half-shadow in summertime. Yen, of course, has fewer climate problems in Texas. :lol: But we Gulf-Stream dependents over here are not as lucky...


Yes i guess Texas is blessed with the moderate climate, but that cage is not compeltely covered by the coconut fiber, only the top part. I have to include 2 light bulbs to provide the required 95-100F as well. The honey water dries up pretty quick under that kind of temp. so i need to refill it often. The painful part is those annoying house flies escape whenever i remove the cup for refilling. Well, that's why people say "no pain no gain"!! Here is the set-up for my empusa, if you remember it is pretty much the same set-up i used for my idolomantis nymphs.


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## Kruszakus

They don't get burned by the lamps?

Hmmmm - maybe you could just simply use a syringe to refill the cups with water?

With the net cage, you can always just leave a handkerchief dipped in honey water and leave it on the top of the enclosure.


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## Christian

:blink: Shouldn't the light come from above? I find this system rather strange. :huh: 

Regarding the fly food: use pure honey. It doesn't dry but cristallizes to sugar when it looses moisture. This doesn't matter, as fly saliva dissolves sugar. Use some kind of mesh or some other device if you use large amounts of honey to prevent the flies from drowning. The drinking water can be provided by spraying.


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## Kruszakus

I think that these are heat lamps, that's why they are inside the enclosure.


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## Christian

That doesn't matter. Animals (except those using warm stones) associate radiation heat with light and light with the sun. That's why light should come from above or at least one upper corner. However, if it works like this it's ok. It's just unusual.


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## yen_saw

Thanks for the input guys!! yeah it is kind of odd to have the light coming from bottom, i will think of a way to hang the light bulb from top. Current method allows a cooler spot at the bottom of the cage. I used just honey before, but many flies get stucked and die there so i changed it to honey water with tower paper in the cup so the flies won't drown. The bulb is only of 40 and 45W, not hot enough to burn the stick but i do set it in such a way that it won't be in direct contact with the net or dry leaves/stick. The top portion of the net cage is all covered up by the coconut fiber so can't pour any honey water from top unfortunately


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## Kruszakus

Sometimes I put the light source on the side of the enclosure, and this makes mantids congregate there - but since it's Texas Unicorn, it don't really matter - they can climb soft surfaces, and they feel comfortable there. Though I plan on using lamps which do not give any light at all - just the UV radiation and heat - I do not want to attact mantids where they shoult not be. I still do not know what species I want to keep there - Gongylus or Idolomantis - I hanker after both, but I don't want to be pre-occupied with too many.

Man, those Empusidae have some really tricky requirements.

As for feeding flies - I always do it from the top-side. I just hate when they get ensnared or poo all over the honey.

Yen - you can stick the paper towel to the side of the net cage, flys will find their way to the honey - prepare water with honey dissolved in it, and spray the towel from time to time - should be okay.


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## yen_saw

Christian said:


> That doesn't matter. Animals (except those using warm stones) associate radiation heat with light and light with the sun. That's why light should come from above or at least one upper corner. However, if it works like this it's ok. It's just unusual.


Yeah, hope i didn't confuse the empusa enough to think the world is upside down :lol: By the way, i was told the ooth of _Empusa sp _do hatch fairly quick if fertile, in 3 weeks? is that possible? I hope the "upside-down" light/heat source won't mess up anything.



Kruszakus said:


> Sometimes I put the light source on the side of the enclosure, and this makes mantids congregate there - but since it's Texas Unicorn, it don't really matter - they can climb soft surfaces, and they feel comfortable there. Though I plan on using lamps which do not give any light at all - just the UV radiation and heat - I do not want to attact mantids where they shoult not be. I still do not know what species I want to keep there - Gongylus or Idolomantis - I hanker after both, but I don't want to be pre-occupied with too many.Man, those Empusidae have some really tricky requirements.
> 
> As for feeding flies - I always do it from the top-side. I just hate when they get ensnared or poo all over the honey.
> 
> Yen - you can stick the paper towel to the side of the net cage, flys will find their way to the honey - prepare water with honey dissolved in it, and spray the towel from time to time - should be okay.


Yes i have seen bunch of the Texas unicorn nymphs clump up to the spot closet to the light/heat source. I have seen it on the idolomantis too, that basically means MORE heat is needed  

ok, let me see how the paper towel method will work, but is will sure dry up pretty fast i reckon.


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## Kruszakus

yen_saw said:


> Yeah, hope i didn't confuse the empusa enough to think the world is upside down :lol: By the way, i was told the ooth of _Empusa sp _do hatch fairly quick if fertile, in 3 weeks? is that possible? I hope the "upside-down" light/heat source won't mess up anything.Yes i have seen bunch of the Texas unicorn nymphs clump up to the spot closet to the light/heat source. I have seen it on the idolomantis too, that basically means MORE heat is needed
> 
> ok, let me see how the paper towel method will work, but is will sure dry up pretty fast i reckon.


Well, the heat goes from the bottom, to the top - but the side should not be that warm, so it should not dry as fast as it would on the top of the enclosure. You can leave a small opening by not zipping the zipper, and stuffing the paper towel there or something like that.

I have been thinking about using those small water tanks they use for hamsters and other small animals - but I don't know if it will work out.


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## Christian

> i was told the ooth of Empusa sp do hatch fairly quick if fertile, in 3 weeks? is that possible?


Yes, Empusa ooths hatch in just 2-4 weeks, as they have their diapause in the larval stage.



> I used just honey before, but many flies get stucked and die there so i changed it to honey water with tower paper in the cup so the flies won't drown.


Of course some flies die if you don't use a mesh or something, but even if there are some drowned ones, there are far less losses to drowning than flying around in your room! And, you have less work, as such a honey cup (I use the cups of plastic bottles), which can be rather small, lasts for quite a while. Last but not least, honey water quickly molds, what is not the case with pure honey.


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## OGIGA

95-100F is pretty warm... which gives me an idea! Well, I don't have any mantises now, but now I know that I should get some of these mantises when the weather is cold because their tank would warm up my house.


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## Mantida

Yen, do you find the mantids on top of the light bulbs sometimes? The only downside to that I think would be if one stayed on a bulb too long and got burned or cooked.

I like your net cage and coco-fibre mat idea though... should try it out myself for my gongy.


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## macro junkie

i cant see that happening?there not that stupid are they yen where they would sit on a boiling hot surface?


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## Kruszakus

Oh! Another method I developed - this is the so called oil flask method. You take a plastic container, and you cut out a small hole in the lid - you put a paper towel through the hole, so a small part it sticking out, and the rest should be long enough to reach the bottom of the container. You fill it with honeyed water, and it should provide your flies with both for some time.

Macro - I heard that someone was using a light bulb on the side of the enclosure (I think it was a glass tank) and the poor mantis had it's legs burned from stepping on the hot surface.


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## yen_saw

Christian said:


> Yes, Empusa ooths hatch in just 2-4 weeks, as they have their diapause in the larval stage.


So this species has a short incubating period because of the diapause in later stage of their life. Thta's interesting!



Mantida said:


> Yen, do you find the mantids on top of the light bulbs sometimes? The only downside to that I think would be if one stayed on a bulb too long and got burned or cooked.I like your net cage and coco-fibre mat idea though... should try it out myself for my gongy.


Actually i haven't seen the Empusa fasciata hanging on top of the light bulb since the light bulb is facing upwards. But i have seen idolomantis trying to reach the bottom of light bulb (when it is hang upside down) from another branch but as the light bulb is glass it was difficult for them to get a good grip so they usually give up. very few manage to hang on the light bulb but it is too hot that they eventually move away from the bulb. I wanted to add more fake long grasses on the cage but haven't got a chance to do so. But the female seems to do alright in the cage and has deposited 4 oothecae in 6 days :blink: 



macro junkie said:


> i cant see that happening?there not that stupid are they yen where they would sit on a boiling hot surface?


THey will hang as close to the the light source for the heat but never sit on top(or bottom) of light bulb. If that happen i would say it must be very cold or the light bulb is using too low of wattage.



Kruszakus said:


> Oh! Another method I developed - this is the so called oil flask method. You take a plastic container, and you cut out a small hole in the lid - you put a paper towel through the hole, so a small part it sticking out, and the rest should be long enough to reach the bottom of the container. You fill it with honeyed water, and it should provide your flies with both for some time.


I need that flask!!


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## Kruszakus

It's easy to do - 100 ml cups (the ones you pee in) with 1 cm hole in the lid and a paper towel put through it will hold water for even two weeks. This way you could provide your flys with a supply of water in one cup and with crystalized honey in the other one - you can carve out a nice nieche for them, hehehe.

By the way - I am shocked! My I. lateralis females started depositing ooths after one week! What a shame they haven't had a chance to mate before laying ooths.


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## yen_saw

Damn.... now i really hope the first couple of the _E. fasciata _oothecae are fertile!!


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## Kruszakus

I hope so as well - man, we should spread the love for Empusidae and other communal mantids all over the world... plus, after seeing those pictures Empusa has become even more coveted.

Your males are still doing fine? Or are they dropping like flies?


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## yen_saw

Yeah it is a cool species, but its requirement on diapause, food preference, and heat may be too much of a challenge for hobbyists, and timing for a mature adult pair wasn't easy in my case. Another species not recommended for beginner in my opinion.

Both adult males are doing alright, although the oldest one is a bit sluggish.


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## Kruszakus

I know it's not for beginners, but I will surely try to attempt breeding this species somewhere in the near future - considering the level of difficulty, this would be fun.

The male is a bit sluggish? This does not bode well, he'll probably be dead within a couple of days.

By the way - this is my new little guy, say hi to Rupert...


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## yen_saw

Hi Rupert  

Yeah no harm trying you have gone too far now to retreat  Best of luck breeding this species.


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## Kruszakus

The male got on top of the female and did his job after only four days from his final moult - that was was quick!

I hope you will do good with this species as well, but you are the man, so I'm sure it will be a success.


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## yen_saw

Thanks for the blessing Kruzakus. Just 6 weeks ago I never thought of breeding this species especially when my "intensive" cooling period resulted in males maturing two molts ahead of the females. Well, just 2 weeks after the first ootheca was layed, few nymphs hatched out. So the female did mate (while i was not looking) and layed her first ooth in a week. It still amazed me how fast a female is capable of producing fertile ootheca and 2 weeks later the ootheca hatched, everything happened in 3 weeks! All in all, i am glad there goes another successful breeding. Another diary thread closeout for me.


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## Kruszakus

I hope you will stick to this for a while, I'm gathering some heating equipment and some net cages and I think I would like to give this species a shot - temperatures near the fridges in my cellar are around 14-16C so it would not be a problem to cool them down, I even have a small fridge that could be used for diapause purpose only... and it would be nice to have them around.

By the way - a little comparison with the Idolomorha - three females laid 13 oothecae within three weeks of adulthood! Nice, isn't it? How's the ratio with you Empusa like?


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## king_frog

Wow, the antena on that species are _so_ cool.


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## Christian

> Another diary thread closeout for me


I wouldn't be so sure.  Two larvae isn't very good. There have to be more, 12 to 25. This is particularly one of the species which reveals only after several generations if one did it right. As I pointed out some months earlier, it is not known if it requires a diapause or not. It may breed for one generation, but fail to do so in the next. So it's really important that you continue this species, if possible. Otherwise you cannot draw any conclusions about the breeding of this species. I do it the conservative way, e. g. with diapause, so we could compare after a few years. So, if you have to give up something, please keep this one.


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## yen_saw

Kruszakus said:


> By the way - a little comparison with the Idolomorha - three females laid 13 oothecae within three weeks of adulthood! Nice, isn't it? How's the ratio with you Empusa like?


Empusa sp. are quite capable of producing multiple oothecae in short period of time, your females are just doing her thing  Yeah the same as my female Empusa fasciata too, she produced like 8 oothecae so far in less than 20 days. My second female is on the way to mass ootheca production, she just deposited a huge ooth (her first) this morning.



Christian said:


> I wouldn't be so sure.  Two larvae isn't very good. There have to be more, 12 to 25. This is particularly one of the species which reveals only after several generations if one did it right. As I pointed out some months earlier, it is not known if it requires a diapause or not. It may breed for one generation, but fail to do so in the next. So it's really important that you continue this species, if possible. Otherwise you cannot draw any conclusions about the breeding of this species. I do it the conservative way, e. g. with diapause, so we could compare after a few years. So, if you have to give up something, please keep this one.


Sorry to dissappoint you Christian  The first ooth hatched out only 5 nymphs, but it was from a very small ooth i don't think it contained more than 8 eggs in that ooth. I am hoping her larger ooth will give a better hatching rate and her mass production will give a good size of captive bred for next generation. Although i have to say that i am not sure if i have enough time to breed for the next generatin and you and a few other fellow members here know why  . However, it has been fun and challenging.


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## Kruszakus

Yeah - like three ooths in five days - man, this is shocking - but this is a good thing, I was worried that my recent loss of one female would affect me, but now I can relax. I just collected twelve ooths, and when I let the females return on top of the lid, one immediately deposited an ooth - wow!

Tell me Yen, is there a woman in your house?


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## Christian

The larger ooths are often infertile. I don't know why. There are fertile ooths of considerable size in this species, but if they are too long, often nothing hatches. I am somewhat puzzled abou this, as other species usually lay smaller ooths when infertile. However, I saw it in _Hymenopus_ and _Deroplatys_, too. The only possible explanation is that unfertilized females retain their eggs as long as possible and the amount in the ovaries rises to a level higher than in females depositing regularly. I am not sure if this is the reason, but as a general, extremely large ooths in Empusids should rise some skeptisism. As usual, the ooths should look "well-formed". They don't have to be large. 5 larvae are ok. It's on the lower scale but ok. Sometimes the subsequent ooths yeald more larvae than the first. This is also somewhat unique for Empusids.

All in all, those guys are particular in almost every part of their life cycle.

@ Yen: Regarding the other stuff, see PM.


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## Kruszakus

Wait a mo'...

So Empusa is in hiatus of sort during the colder period, right? Then when it gets warmer it matures within a couple of weeks, mates and a few weeks laters another generation is ready?

But this would leave a couple of very warm months for the next generation to live in, they would not have a chance for a diapause.

Can you alterate diapause periods every second generation?


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## Christian

The adults are usually found between April and June in the Mediterranean. The laid ooths hatch usually at some time in July. The larvae grow during the warmest time of the year until at some time in October the development is slowed down, triggered by the shorter days. They are then subadult or one instar below and spend the winter months in this stage. In spring, the development is completed as the days get longer and the temps rise and the last molt is then in April or May, depending on year.

If the three species ocurring in Europe undergo more than a generation per year in warmer climates (N-Africa, Arabia, India) is not known to me. It is well possible that they have a summer and a winter generation there. More than two generations is unrealistic for any Empusid, although people achieve more generations in captivity by "powerbreeding" in _Blepharopsis_. I try/tried to have no more than two generations per year in the desert species (_Hypsicorypha_) and one per year in _Empusa pennata_.

Regardless of the actual number of generations per year, I ALWAYS offer a diapause in the winter generation. Most people just don't do it, however, often the species are "worn out" after several generations then. This is always termed as inbreeding by most guys instead of just offering them a diapause in winter. It hasn't to be very severe in N-African species, usually just putting the container in some cooler corner of the room for some weeks and adhusting the duration of daylight is sufficient. Only Mediterranean _Empusa_ need a somewhat more severe diapause. It is just unnatural to me to do powerbreeding in a non-tropical species. Furthermore, it wasn't never successful until today. That's why I asked Yen to try it for several generations. You just can't draw any conclusions in Mediterranean species after just one generation.


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