# Ooths from Tanzania



## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]He there to anyone that got Ooths from Tanzania that Don.L was selling has anyones hatch out yet and if so what kind are did you get, also any pics?[/SIZE]

I am still waiting for mine to come out and say yellow there" ha ha" well what are they going to say.


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## hibiscusmile (Jul 27, 2009)

Not mine "{ but I suppose I'm not the only one!


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## pohchunyee (Jul 28, 2009)

I think I am the only one whose ooth I bought from DonL. had hatched!

Species: Idolomantis diabolica ooth

Date Received: June 6, 2009

Date Hatch: June 9, 2009

Number of Nymphs hatched: 39












Good luck guys!!!!


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]Mine still haven't hatched nor do they smell bad so idk, any one eles get any bad or good?[/SIZE]


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## francisco (Aug 4, 2009)

ArkBlue said:


> [SIZE=14pt]Mine still haven't hatched nor do they smell bad so idk, any one eles get any bad or good?[/SIZE]


PErhaps you all should cut a little corner to expose the nymphs and see if they are still alive or they are hard like a grain of rice.

good luck to all.

francisco


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## [email protected] (Aug 6, 2009)

francisco said:


> PErhaps you all should cut a little corner to expose the nymphs and see if they are still alive or they are hard like a grain of rice.good luck to all.
> 
> francisco


[SIZE=14pt]Well I cut the 1st Ooth that had the wasp hatch out, looking in side they where some green but more black ones I gess the wasp, some where dry but some of the black ones where a little wet I gess the wasp whent bad, it looks like the outer ones are the dry ones be it green or black .[/SIZE]

Then the 2rd was dry in side and the nymphs where green, sucks.

So it look like they might of dryed out a little befor.

I had both Ooth on the same lid, with the foam, they where the same kind the giant flower mantis.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 6, 2009)

Those of you who have ooths that have not hatched, dont forget to update your breeders feedback on him, also if they hatch.... do the same.


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## [email protected] (Aug 6, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]I did now, now why isn't there more people post that theres haven't hatched or have or they got a bucket of monkeys and not A Ooth. [/SIZE]

A note Pohchunyee my 2 Ooth look just like yours, the shape not the hatched part.


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## Katnapper (Aug 6, 2009)

I'm working on my feedback for Don L.  It's just taking a while, as I have a lot to say.


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## [email protected] (Aug 17, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]Well I've been needing to get back to this, I had hear back about what kind of Ooth he thoght they are; spiny flowers/#9 or Creobroter Gemmatus but there Ooths are a long thin kind also Creobroter sp live in Asia, also my Ooths look like Pohchunyee pics so its sad that we will never know what kind thay were.[/SIZE]


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## rodmalm (Aug 26, 2009)

Mine didn't hatch either. (two Idolomantis ooths) I assume one reason more people haven't mentioned it is because they are still waiting and hoping for a hatch. It's kind of hard to open up an ooth of a species that you have been tring to get for a long time, when there is still some risk that you will kill it by opening it too soon.

I went back and read Yen Saw's notes on this species, and he said that the ooths hatched in 50 days. Since I've waited a bit longer than that, plus the time in transit and the time between when it was laid and when it was collected, I figured it was safe to open them. There were a bunch of dried up nymphs. About 75 in each ooth and they were pretty developed. It looks like they died a long time prior to me opening the ooth. I kept them at very close to 100% humidity the entire time they were in my care, so I know they didn't dry out here. No bad smell like Rebecca described. I assume that is because they were so dried out. I've had very old infertile ooths that my mantises have produced, and they were wet when opened. That is to say, the ova broke open and the ova were wet, even though they were over two months old. I've got to believe the ooths dried out too much in transit, or overheated in transit. I can't really blame Don for that, it's a risk you take, but it sure was a waste of my hard earned cash!! :angry: That's a lot of money to lay out for nothing in return, but again, that's a risk you take.

Rodney


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## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]Good point Rodney A+ man[/SIZE]

When I had started this topic it wasn't to blame anyone for the Ooths dying. It was to see who hatched what and to see how they were doing, also to see if anyone had gotten the kind I bought from Don and to see what they were? for that I know what they were not any Spiny flowers or any Cerobroter sp. that I could find. I bought the giant flower mantids Ooth, and I know he was selling other kinds of Ooths besides Idolomantis or the kind I got so still wondering about the rest of you out there anymore info on your W.C. Ooths from Tanzania?


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## Christian (Aug 26, 2009)

Guys, have you ever thought of at least some ooths being killed purposedly by the African sellers in order to keep their business going? Or, if the seller doesn't know of it, by the collector (sellers and collectors are different persons)? Still as prone to buy such stuff?


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## Rick (Aug 26, 2009)

Christian said:


> Guys, have you ever thought of at least some ooths being killed purposedly by the African sellers in order to keep their business going? Or, if the seller doesn't know of it, by the collector (sellers and collectors are different persons)? Still as prone to buy such stuff?


Very good points there. However, there doesn't seem to be much choice with this species.


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## Christian (Aug 26, 2009)

There are enough breeders. But this isn't the point, isn't it?


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## Rick (Aug 26, 2009)

Christian said:


> There are enough breeders. But this isn't the point, isn't it?


I just haven't noticed that many breeders.


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## pohchunyee (Aug 26, 2009)

Christian said:


> There are enough breeders. But this isn't the point, isn't it?


Lots of breeder in Europe and I think 0 breeder in USA.


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## Christian (Aug 26, 2009)

Well, that may be true, but it isn't that one can't get them from over here. There is express delivery, why isn't it used by more? You need permits? Go and get them - and don't tell me this isn't possible. Sincerely, there are possibilities, but if saving money is all that has priority it's no surprise that things end up like this.

Another point is that even those who get a good ooth don't manage to get the species into stock (with Yen as the single exception, which, by the way, holds also for other species). This is due to a lack of experience and a lack of willingness to listen to the stuff the more experienced breeders said. WC specimens are not for everyone, and this species particularly, that is the simple truth. WC specimens are by far not as hardy and used to captive conditions as established stocks are. You see, most excuses can be wiped away in a blink of an eye.

It's a shame that people don't see what this unholy practice of overexploiting a species is leading to in the long term.


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## Kruszakus (Aug 26, 2009)

Christian said:


> Well, that may be true, but it isn't that one can't get them from over here. There is express delivery, why isn't it used by more? You need permits? Go and get them - and don't tell me this isn't possible. Sincerely, there are possibilities, but if saving money is all that has priority it's no surprise that things end up like this. Another point is that even those who get a good ooth don't manage to get the species into stock (with Yen as the single exception, which, by the way, holds also for other species). This is due to a lack of experience and a lack of willingness to listen to the stuff the more experienced breeders said. WC specimens are not for everyone, and this species particularly, that is the simple truth. WC specimens are by far not as hardy and used to captive conditions as established stocks are. You see, most excuses can be wiped away in a blink of an eye.
> 
> It's a shame that people don't see what this unholy practice of overexploiting a species is leading to in the long term.


Don't forget about mandatory UVB lights, or about the fact that misting from L6 upwards kills them and so on.


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## Rick (Aug 26, 2009)

Christian said:


> Well, that may be true, but it isn't that one can't get them from over here. There is express delivery, why isn't it used by more? You need permits? Go and get them -


Go read my thread in the regulatory issues forum. Chances of us getting a permit to IMPORT is about zero.


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## Christian (Aug 26, 2009)

If this is the situation, isn't it also illegal to import ooths? So, if you all undergo such risks, isn't it irrevant if you do it for captive specimens or for WC ones?

Someone should be able to clarify to the relevant persons that a species as specialized as Idolomantis wouldn't be threat for native faunas.


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## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2009)

Christian said:


> Guys, have you ever thought of at least some ooths being killed purposedly by the African sellers in order to keep their business going? Or, if the seller doesn't know of it, by the collector (sellers and collectors are different persons)? Still as prone to buy such stuff?


[SIZE=14pt]Now A thought would be for the Tanzania collectors/Tanzania sellers whom ever it is, well wouldn't it be wise for them to collect adults and breed them, as some do for some reptiles like chameleon breeders in Africa or what they do with Ball python where thay catch the gravid wild female balls and then they Incubat them and export them to around, so they can put them into the pet trade. Well its a thought why haven't someone done this, but then again Christian has a good point.[/SIZE]


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## Christian (Aug 26, 2009)

In order to keep a particular species alive, not talking about breeding it, you have to know something about it. Unfortunately, in most countries people either have other, more severe problems, or simply are not much interested or are misinformed about their native faunas. As a consequence, the state of knowledge on most taxa is rather poor. For example, prior of our very first _Idolomantis_ imports, many natives down there didn't even know that the nymphs, the ooths and the adults belong to the same species. Furthermore, taking care of a bunch of animals means work, and why engaging in work if you just can pick what nature has already done for you.

We shouldn't be too confident either: our activities aren't any better than what those people do, on the contrary, we are acting on a global scale, overharvesting timber, overfishing oceans and stealing other peoples resources. Thinking about consequences is obviously an evolutionary trait that wasn't necessary for the survival of the hominids. Maybe this lack will turn out to maneuver us into a dead end street. Nature will give a party then, I think.


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## Katnapper (Aug 26, 2009)

Christian said:


> Nature will give a party then, I think.


After it recovers.


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## Rick (Aug 26, 2009)

Christian said:


> If this is the situation, isn't it also illegal to import ooths? So, if you all undergo such risks, isn't it irrevant if you do it for captive specimens or for WC ones?Someone should be able to clarify to the relevant persons that a species as specialized as Idolomantis wouldn't be threat for native faunas.


Yes it is illegal.

I posed the exact issue in your last sentence to the USDA person. His reply is in the thread in the regularatory forum. He says they make the laws/rules based on the entire country, not a specific area. There is a problem of non native species taking hold in FL and southern CA but it probably couldn't happen in most other places with these mantids. I wonder often why those areas cannot be the ones with the restrictions but that isn't how they do it. I agree it makes no sense in the case of mantids but then again not much makes sense when dealing with government.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 26, 2009)

Amen Rick, Amen! and everybody said AMEN!


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## Katnapper (Aug 26, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Amen Rick, Amen! and everybody said AMEN!


AY Men!!!!


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 26, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> AY Men!!!!


And again I say, "Amen!"


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## tier (Aug 30, 2009)

[SIZE=12pt]*Simple Mathematics*[/SIZE]

Hi

Here is a calculation for all those who wonder that the African Wild Caught ooths never hatch.

Let’s say there are areas in Tanzania and Kenia with one, two or three rain seasons. Some tribes of let’s say Idolomantis diabolica thus undergo one, two or three generations a year. That means that if you collect all ooth you will collect the ooth of up to three different generations. Only some of the last ooth of the last generation will not have hatched out yet. Consequently, only less than 33% are still filled with alive larvae.

OK, but the empty, not collected ooth in nature do not vanish! They will stay where they were laid by the mother for several years! This results in the fact that not less than 33% of all ooth are empty already. Let’s say the ooth can resist the outdoor conditions for 5 years. This means less than 33%/5 = 6.6% are still filled with larvae.

Now be aware that only a low percentage of these 6.6% of all collected ooth which are still filled with larvae where collected directly before they are shipped to Europe or USA. The collector collects not one ooth and directly sends it. He collects for 2-4 weeks and later he sends all ooth. So most of the ooth will hatch at the collector while waiting to be shipped to Europe or US. I would say less than 50% of the less than 6.6% will be shipped with still alive larvae. Resulting in around 3% of alive larvae containing ooth are on their way to USA or Europe. In the 3-5 weeks of shipping, around 80% of this ooth will hatch while shipping. Because it takes 3-5 weeks! Of course the collector does no express shipping because why should he ship stuff express which is laying on his desk for already 2-4weeks?!

You can see that the chance for an Idolomantis ooth from Tanzanian or Kenian collectors to hatch is *much less than 0.5%*. But this is not enough. Now the ooth which were imported to Europe and still contain larvae (which of course will hatch out every day) are sold to USA and shipped to USA for another 3-5 Weeks traveling around from Europe to USA.

All in all, it’s not that the collector or the people who are buying ooth from collectors and selling them to hobbyists like us fool us. It’s just normal that nearly no ooth will be fine. The collectors and sellers do not realize the facts just as most of you seem not to realize it. As you can see, this year, the only Idolomantis ooth which was exported to the USA and really hatched out directly hatched out after arriving at PohChunYee. And some years ago, the only other one or two succesfull ooth in USA hatched out on their way to Yen, luckily he handled it to manage them although they hatched out some days before arrival while shipping.

So, even if my calculation is not 100% correct, I think it can help to understand the situation. If you receive a ooth, it will hatch with a chance of much less than 0.5%, and if you will get a new one because the seller gives a guaranty, this new one will hatch with 0.5% and so on…

Best regards,

Stefan


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## Christian (Aug 30, 2009)

This seems to be roughly correct, except that there aren't 3 _Idolomantis_ generations a year. 2 is the most that's possible.


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## [email protected] (Aug 30, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]A+ Stefan[/SIZE]

still I think helping whom ever is collecting the Ooths where ever thay are collecting them be it Tanzania or Malaysian maybe befor its to late somone could start a breeding program to help keep some for the wild and then some for the hobby, its a thought to save our hobby and the wild mantids of the world.


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## Kruszakus (Aug 30, 2009)

But it should not be a problem to tell a fresh ooth from a hatched one. Besides, ooths sitting somewhere for months will deteriorate - the problem is, those ooths are often collected by people who know nothing about mantids.

I've seen it - them ooths that came from Tanzania, some on them looked like they were already hatched, some appeared damaged, and some looked fine, but nothing hatched from them... which proves the point that Tier has made. You pay for a good ooth, but there is a good chance that you might get some old, moldy garbage.


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## tier (Sep 8, 2009)

Hi

Not too much reply to my calculation. Are you all shocked now, or just ignore it?

Anyway, now the moderators start selling WC Idolomantis ooth, which is the baddest thing ever here in the forum in my opinion. We will see how much of the new imports will hatch. And it's the worst of the situations I mentioned above: First to UK, and later on from the UK to the wide world. Good incubation!

(Sorry Ian, but this is what I think).

Good luck to all of you

regards


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 8, 2009)

I just caught this post! I think that is pretty much correct, other than an ooth that is hatched will usually show signs of being hatched, as in the little brown lines along the zipper, now an ooth that is old with a summers age will also not look fresh and clean, it will appear a bit faded. I raise in my fields the chinese and religiosa, and I can usually tell when I missed picking from the year before, but that does not mean that those who are not breeders, but collectors (those who buy from someone and resell) will know what that looks like. That is why when Don L. told me to send him a picture after I told him the first ooths he sent were old and hatched, I did so, so there would be no reason to send me another like that. haha. not that it did any good!


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## Ian (Sep 12, 2009)

tier said:


> HiNot too much reply to my calculation. Are you all shocked now, or just ignore it?
> 
> Anyway, now the moderators start selling WC Idolomantis ooth, which is the baddest thing ever here in the forum in my opinion. We will see how much of the new imports will hatch. And it's the worst of the situations I mentioned above: First to UK, and later on from the UK to the wide world. Good incubation!
> 
> ...


No need to appologise  

Last year before last when I imported some Idolomantis ootheca, 7 out of the 10 I got hatched. Hence, I bought some more. The one ootheca I cut open had living larvae in - could have been the only one, could have been one of many. We will soon see if the ones I kept, hatch. People realise the risks of buying wild caught ootheca, as I realised the risks of buying them myself.

As for your calculations, you do raise an interesting point. And depending on the results from these ootheca, will certainly depend on whether I buy any more of these again. However, as I said, I bought this lot based on the good results I had last time from WC ootheca.


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## tier (Sep 12, 2009)

Ian said:


> No need to appologise  Last year before last when I imported some Idolomantis ootheca, 7 out of the 10 I got hatched. Hence, I bought some more. The one ootheca I cut open had living larvae in - could have been the only one, could have been one of many. We will soon see if the ones I kept, hatch. People realise the risks of buying wild caught ootheca, as I realised the risks of buying them myself.
> 
> As for your calculations, you do raise an interesting point. And depending on the results from these ootheca, will certainly depend on whether I buy any more of these again. However, as I said, I bought this lot based on the good results I had last time from WC ootheca.


Ahh, I see. You had good results so you tried it again. Ok, why not. You are right.

But Ian, 7 ooth hatched out and you need to import new ooth? I cannot understand that! Did you just sell all without trying to breed them? Or did all these hundreds of larvae died? I could understand that, as new imported tribes of Idolomantis fail nearly always.

regards


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## Ian (Sep 12, 2009)

Nope, I sold all the livestock I had about about 6 weeks after they had hatched, as I went away to Europe for a couple of months. Timing was extremely badly planned on that one. I didn't have a massive amount, I got between 5 and 10 from each ootheca; but regardless, better than nothing. And yes, a lot of larvae did die, about 30% all in all. However, I figured I'd give it another bash.


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## sporeworld (Mar 10, 2011)

I just wanted to ping this thread. Somehow, I missed it when scanning the forum last year, and I'd like to see more people read it and chime in, as it's been a while. Any new insights...?


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 11, 2011)

No, I think that it is pretty much exhausted. Tier's "simple mathematics" had far too many hypotheticals, including a wrong estimate on the number of generations per year, to be convincing, but we know that buying African Idolomantis is a serious gamble, whether the odds of getting a goodun are 0.5% or 1.28697%.

Rick's comment about having federal laws that apply only to certain areas betrays a misunderstanding of the concept of Federal law, or for the reason for it, which applies to the whole of the United States equally. Undocumented Mexicans are as illegal in Wisconsin as they are in Arizona or Texas. The only exception to this (and I'm a bloody foreigner, goldurn it! Don't you learn about your own government in school?) is when a state uses a stricter interpretation of the law than do the feds, in which case, the stricter interpretation wins. If a state believes, for example, that the privacy of a person's property extends to garbage that has been set out for collection, then federal agents cannot use evidence from papers taken from such garbage in that state, though Federal law allows such confiscation.

The reason why WC ooths and mantids are considered much more dangerous than captive raised specimens of the same species is that they are likely to carry all sorts of parasites that can escape and become established even though the mantids that bore them die out.


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