# What could be possibly wrong?



## Fisherman_Brazil (Feb 3, 2009)

What could be possibly wrong?

The orchids are mainly dined on roaches. Before this odd ooth happen, there has been pretty "normal" the ooth been built.

I have noticed the temperature was rised a little bit high, from roughly 28-30c to about 32-33c.


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## yen_saw (Feb 3, 2009)

Aww bummer. Sorry to see the deformed ooth. it could be due to the food or old age. Who knows. How we wish the orchid female speaks english. &lt;_&lt;


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Feb 3, 2009)

yen_saw said:


> Aww bummer. Sorry to see the deformed ooth. it could be due to the food or old age. Who knows. How we wish the orchid female speaks english. &lt;_&lt;


Speaking English and old age can possibly be ruled out. Food must be the primary suspect!


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## Hypoponera (Feb 3, 2009)

Hey Luke,

Sorry to see the mis shaped ooth! I've not had that species, but have seen ooths like that from several other species. The deformed ooths were always produced by females who had NOT been mated yet. Is it possible that she had not been mated? Or maybe she mated but was not fertilized? Have you seen her signalling/calling? I doubt the diet is the problem. Roaches should provide a better source of materials then the flies I use.


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Feb 3, 2009)

Hypoponera said:


> Hey Luke,Sorry to see the mis shaped ooth! I've not had that species, but have seen ooths like that from several other species. The deformed ooths were always produced by females who had NOT been mated yet. Is it possible that she had not been mated? Or maybe she mated but was not fertilized? Have you seen her signalling/calling? I doubt the diet is the problem. Roaches should provide a better source of materials then the flies I use.


maybe she mated but was not fertilized?

I have 5 females, all mated and witnessed myself. However, the possibility of not fertile is there! Just something has to be wrong, but exactly what?


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## Orin (Feb 3, 2009)

She may have been interrupted or lost footing during formation, I've seen a number of deformed oothecae of different species and generally the same female produces previous or/and subsequent proper oothecae.


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## Katnapper (Feb 3, 2009)

Orin said:


> She may have been interrupted or lost footing during formation, I've seen a number of deformed oothecae of different species and generally the same female produces previous or/and subsequent proper oothecae.


If the deformity is due to something like this as opposed to being old or infertile, does it affect the ability to hatch successfully?


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Feb 3, 2009)

may have been interrupted or lost footing during formation

This is convicing as we can still observe small portion of the ooth is quite alright in my point of view. We shall see if some can still be hatching out.


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## hibiscusmile (Feb 3, 2009)

Orin is more right than wrong. I have same thing happen when I pick up container to feed and not notice the laying ooth process, also have seen it with old age, also, don't know if u used crickets, but Rob B. swears not to feed them crickets, so I stopped. I have two ooths from one female that looked like teardrops, from one ooth 1 nymph and the other 2! So I should of took pic and posted it, but I didn't. So do not discount the ooths.


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## Rick (Feb 3, 2009)

Seen it many times. Often very old mantids do this and if that does not apply to yours then she may have fallen like Orin said. I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Katnapper (Feb 3, 2009)

Rick said:


> Seen it many times. Often very old mantids do this and if that does not apply to yours then she may have fallen like Orin said. I wouldn't worry about it.


When very old mantids do this are the ooths usually still fertile, or infertile?


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## yen_saw (Feb 3, 2009)

It will be interesting to see her next ooth. My guess is if she is not old, it could be that she is not healthy (could be from the dirty food). The fact that the ootheca has eggs exposed shows that she is not ready for it, more like trying to get rid of her load instead of depositing a proper ootheca because of sickness. If the mantis is disturbed during depositing, the ootheca may appear to look "bend" but should still be fully covered by foam if she is healthy. If the mantis have been fallen or miss footing, the oothecae would have been on separate location (and should still be fully covered by foam). I also doubt she actually fall during laying process as the netting appear to provide a good footing for her. Most of the time (especially with orchid mantis oothecae), the ootheca yield very little nymphs or nothing at all. Sorry to make it sounds persimistic. Please keep us update Luke and show another pic of her next ooth (which may look deformed again).

Your orchid ooth reminds me one of the deformed ooth from my orchid female. It was her 10th (probably more) ooth.






She was old and probably sick too. Obviously her ooth yield nothing.


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Feb 3, 2009)

yen_saw said:


> It will be interesting to see her next ooth. My guess is if she is not old, it could be that she is not healthy (could be from the dirty food). The fact that the ootheca has eggs exposed shows that she is not ready for it, more like trying to get rid of her load instead of depositing a proper ootheca because of sickness. If the mantis is disturbed during depositing, the ootheca may appear to look "bend" but should still be fully covered by foam if she is healthy. If the mantis have been fallen or miss footing, the oothecae would have been on separate location (and should still be fully covered by foam). I also doubt she actually fall during laying process as the netting appear to provide a good footing for her. Most of the time (especially with orchid mantis oothecae), the ootheca yield very little nymphs or nothing at all. Sorry to make it sounds persimistic. Please keep us update Luke and show another pic of her next ooth (which may look deformed again).Your orchid ooth reminds me one of the deformed ooth from my orchid female. It was her 10th (probably more) ooth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What an achievement, the 10th ooth! That is Who's who among mantis world.

The ooth cited actually is the second from the female. An opinion from another panel suggesting water residue on the netting may be acused as the suspect, that is another good possiblity, by observation from the fact, good part of the ooth still remaining literally intact.


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## Rick (Feb 4, 2009)

That one part of the ooth looks ok. You may get a few nymphs out of that.


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## kamakiri (Feb 5, 2009)

The formation of the ooth started normally. What I see is a 'structural' failure while it was being laid. Heat, humidity, perhaps a mis-step could have been factors with that section failing. My first thought is that it did not harden fast enough. It could also be the geometry of the lid. Sometimes mantises can't turn the corner when laying an ooth. Don't worry about it, but I would keep this one. It is probably fertile and would be a good specimen to observe prior to and during hatching. Please update us with her next ooth.


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Mar 21, 2009)

Hatching rate not good, only a dozen. But it does hatch!


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## Katnapper (Mar 21, 2009)

Fisherman_Brazil said:


> Hatching rate not good, only a dozen. But it does hatch!


That's great, Luke!  Thank you for letting us know... it might save someone from throwing out a deformed one thinking there is no chance of hatching.


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## OGIGA (Mar 21, 2009)

Wow, I must say that I am thoroughly surprised! I'm surprised that you didn't give up on it and that it actually hatched. Congratulations!


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Mar 21, 2009)

I was wrong as further examining - there are more than two dozen healthy nymphs!


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## kamakiri (Mar 21, 2009)

About what I expected...unfortunately, it also means that there are fully developed embryo/nymphs that simply will not hatch because they are trapped due to the mishap or structural failure. I bet you'll find them if you dissect the ooth.


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Mar 21, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> About what I expected...unfortunately, it also means that there are fully developed embryo/nymphs that simply will not hatch because they are trapped due to the mishap or structural failure. I bet you'll find them if you dissect the ooth.


"because they are trapped due to the mishap or structural failure"

Would there be any possiblility to "rescue" or help the nymphs?


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## kamakiri (Mar 21, 2009)

Fisherman_Brazil said:


> "because they are trapped due to the mishap or structural failure"Would there be any possiblility to "rescue" or help the nymphs?


Yes, but you would be doing it right when the regular hatch is just finishing and acting very quickly and carefully. Even then it would be likely that it is too late or some would be accidentally crushed during the 'cesarian' operation. I would have tried it, and it wouldn't hurt to try pulling it apart carefully now. But it is very likely too late now for any additional survivors unless there is any other natural hatching still occurring.


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks kamakiri

You are a schaler and a gentleman!


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 22, 2009)

There is nothing you can do really to help them, they will dry up and die shortly, the hatching process is part of their survival, if they are strong enough to hatch and escape the thread then they have a chance of surviving, I have tried everything I can to save a mantis in the ooth hatching process and all are failures, but as u can see an odd or misformed ooth will hatch very often, it just depends on the eggs laid inside the near normal part.


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Mar 23, 2009)

Thanks Becky, you are really an expert of the Orchid.


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