# Inbreeding



## Snipes (Oct 20, 2006)

I did a bit of searching and found some conflicting threads. Some said that since they are somewhat simple it shouldnt be a problem unless they are bred over and over and over..

Then there was a thread on orchid mantids and there was talk of avoiding inbreeding.

Is inbreeding taboo here, or is it common?

Has anyone specifically done tests on it? That is, inbreeding several generations and taking notes of things like mutations, mortality, sterility, and other problems in offspring, and then comparing them to those who are being bred by unrelated (by at least a few generations, they may be distantly related) individuals?


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## Rick (Oct 21, 2006)

I would say its common. There are only so many exotic mantids in collectors hands and they get inbred quite a bit. I have african mantids I have had for five generations and they are fine. I don't think it's really an issue for most mantids.


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## yen_saw (Oct 24, 2006)

I have no problem inbreeding budwing mantis (parasphendale sp) and Hierodula sp. for generations but i failed to continue on devil flower mantis (B. Mendica) and spiny flower mantis (P. Wahlbergii) after 2nd generation. Unfortunately i couldn't figure out the reason why, it could be coincident that it happened to flower type mantis but my guess is it has something to do with the food we offered.


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## Christian (Oct 24, 2006)

Hi.

I don't want to dissapoint you, but _Blepharopsis_ and _Pseudocreobotra _do in fact belong to the genera less affected by "inbreeding". I wrote somewhere else that inbreeding applies only after many many generations. People too easily think it's inbreeding when they do not succeed. There are species that do not well in captivity if the stock started with one specimen or one ooth only (_Blepharopsis_ and _Pseudocreobotra_ do not belong to this group), but this is not inbreeding but some kind of "recognizing genetic similarity". This is by far different from inbreeding symptoms and can be avoided in most taxa by keeping large breeding groups.

However, most unsuccessful cases belong to wrong climatic conditions or unsuitable food.

Regards,

Christian


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## Butterfly (Oct 24, 2006)

so you guys are saying I can take a female from pod A and a male from pod B and mate them and that should result in a viable ooth potentially?

As long as theyre not too far apart in age im assuming?


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## yen_saw (Oct 24, 2006)

Well actually some of later generation of mantis species looks stronger and live longer than the previous generations for me. But not P. Wahlbergii or B. mendica. I am going to do this with orchid mantis too. I am planning to give P. Wahlbergii another try. Christian, please enlighten us with the mantis species that do not do well in captivity with limited gene pool. I would continue on trading or buying new blood or wild caught species if orchid mantis belongs to one of them.


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## yen_saw (Oct 24, 2006)

> so you guys are saying I can take a female from pod A and a male from pod B and mate them and that should result in a viable ooth potentially? As long as theyre not too far apart in age im assuming?


If pod A and pod B are from different species, that would be cross-breeding. In this case the ooth will not be viable. if they are from the same species, the ooth should hatch.


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## Christian (Oct 24, 2006)

Hi.

Orchids do well in captivity. Crossing frequently new blood is not a bad idea, but:



> some of later generation of mantis species looks stronger and live longer than the previous generations for me.


That's the point! Has someone noticed new species to do very bad for 1-2 generations and to explode after that? This is because you select! In your stocks some kind of semi-natural selection applies which eliminates all genotypes which do not properly with your conditions. So, in fact, you do inbreed! To a certain extent, at least. In all cases you should breed with 6-10 adult pairs at least!

After some generations, you have a good-running stock and you sell your surplus stuff and give all information regarding breeding. But, the specimens are adapted to your conditions, not to those of the new breeder. So, all the thing starts again, except that he/she starts with an empoverished gene pool. If his conditions are very different from yours (even if you tell what to do the conditions will be different! In fact they are different between two enclosures in the same room!) his stock may not survive as the "adequate" allele combination may not exist. That's why many people are surprisingly unsuccessful with species you breed very easy!

"What? All died?/No males left?/ etc. What have you done?" "I did what you said!" "Very strange, in my stock they breed for themselves, I just drop food inside!" and so on...

Does someone recognize this conversation? :wink:

Now the point is: you select every time you establish a stock. To what extent depends on the breeding stock. If it's too small, you cannot compensate conditional changes very well. A hot summer, a period during which you are less cautionous and your stock may be gone. The trick is to find the balance between selection and this genetic impoverishment in your stock on the one hand and a nevertheless stable genetic diversity on the other.

Now, the extent to which this works depends on the taxon: some may be bred for generations with few specimens, others make it for just one or two generations. This last case is very interesting, and known over here as the "forest species problem". It's mostly primary rain or cloud forest species which are not successfully bred yet. Some cases: _Choeradodis, Acanthops, Vates amazonica_ and _weyrauchi, Phyllovates tripunctata, Antemna, Thesprotiella, Sibylla dolosa, Parhymenopus_, probably also _Toxodera_ and _Paratoxodera_. To a lesser extent also _Theopropus, Hymenopus, Deroplatys_. I suppose (the following is still speculation, but based on my knowledge in Tropical and mantid Ecology) species of this group may have adapted against inbreeding in natural conditions as a consequence of their rarity: maybe the likelihood of encountering a specimen from the same ootheca is higher than encountering an unrelated one. So, they have adapted to avoid pairings between brothers/sisters: different developmental times between males and females force males to fly away searching for mates in other places as none of the sisters is adult yet; recognising and, consequently, avoiding sisters by their pheromones; sperm competition; and so on. So, if you start with one ooth or one female, you may have a lot of wealthy specimens, but noone copulates or the ooths do not hatch or the larvae die soon. This is the "forest species problem".

Many forest species breed very well, but those are found also in secondary habitats. Strictly understorey species of closed forests often cause this difficulties. Savannah species are really easy to breed compared with those ones.

This is one of the* real* problems we think about over here and which is to be solved regarding the breeding of mantids.

Regards,

Christian


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## yen_saw (Oct 24, 2006)

Thanks for the input Christian.



> I don't want to dissapoint you, but Blepharopsis and Pseudocreobotra do in fact belong to the genera less affected by "inbreeding".


 I am actually glad there are not :wink:


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## francisco (Oct 25, 2006)

Hello Christian,

Thanks for the imformation, very interesting and helpfull.

regards

FT


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## Jay (Oct 25, 2006)

Christian,

Thank you so much for your remarks and input on the matter of inbreeding. Your explanation helped to clarify a lot of my confusion on the matter.

-Jay


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