# Inflation



## superfreak (Apr 5, 2009)

i hate starting a topic in this section of the forum as it always means something is wrong    

alrighty. my new H. majescula female was going wonderfully until she moulted. She didnt mismoult. Had a small encounter with a stray cricket but that was dealt with quickly. I though it was all fine until i realosed that its been more than a week since she moulted and shes still refusing food. Not only that but har abdomen looks like its completely distended. It seems not as heavy as it would be were it full of food and is somewhat translucent when held up to a light. I will upload a picture asap. Has this happened to anyone before? Tell me it survived!  

sigh... :mellow:


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## Rick (Apr 5, 2009)

I had a very old mantis and her abdomen got HUGE. It was full of air though and she did die.


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## superfreak (Apr 5, 2009)

yeah  i think its full of air. this ones not old though - shes only sub-sub adult.

ah well we shall see. thanks rick


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## superfreak (Apr 6, 2009)

so if she gets worse... perhaps i should release some of that air with a sterilized pin...? only as a last resort, of course...


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## Emile.Wilson (Apr 6, 2009)

superfreak said:


> so if she gets worse... perhaps i should release some of that air with a sterilized pin...? only as a last resort, of course...


There should be a mantis surgeon that can help with mis molts and inflation


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 6, 2009)

superfreak said:


> so if she gets worse... perhaps i should release some of that air with a sterilized pin...? only as a last resort, of course...


That sounds like a smart idea. Instead of a pin, though, which will just leave a wound that might seal up, you might want to try a 21G or 23G needle if you can obtain one. Alternatively, rotate a piece of glass tubing over a bunsen burner and draw it out so that the center is as narrow as capillary tubing -- I imagine that you have done this at one time or another and your lab may even stock such pipettes. My fear, though, is that the gas is being caused by an ongoing infectious or necrotic process, but as you say, as a last resort... and at least you'll be doing something!

I assume, and I'm sure that you know more about arthropods' digestive tracts than I, that the production of free nitrogen gas or liquid in the abdomen is due to a (fatal if permanent) failure of the Malpighian tubules, but could it also be due to a distal obstruction of the gut itself? Before using a needle, you might try introducing a blunt probe like a lubricated toothpick, anally, to dislodge any potential blockage. This would have the merit of being, technically, a non-invasive procedure. You could then go to step 2 if that fails.

In the US I have stunned insects using CO2 generated by Alka Seltzer dropped in warm water, but perhaps you have something more sophisticated!

Best of luck, and please let us know the outcome.

I shall light a candle for you and your friend before the Shrine...


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## superfreak (Apr 9, 2009)

so i got me a nice, sterilized razor and deflated her. as we suspected - lots of gas, virtually no liquid at all. after this she seemed a tad happier and drank an awful lot. unfortunately she continues to ignore food and even push it away when hand fed. so i held her and force fed her a cricket. occasionally she would forget that she wasnt supposed to be enjoying it and start munching happily without me having to shove her face in it, but this never lasted long. after her meal she re-inflated  all in all it has been difficult looking after this one. i think ill try to get her to her next moult and then if shes still constantly blowing up like a balloon then ill leave her to her fate  

urgh! :angry:


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## kamakiri (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm sorry the surgery wasn't a permanent fix  

Could you describe where you made the puncture?

I don't know any of the technical nature of the organ, but my guess is that this is caused by a problem with an 'air bladder' used primarily for molting. I haven't disected any of my pets so I really have no idea...does somebody know if there is such a separate organ?


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## superfreak (Apr 9, 2009)

between the lateral and ventral margins on her abdomen, between the third and fourth plates.

didnt want to do it completely ventrally as their hearts and nerve chords run along there, no?


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 10, 2009)

I don't know any of the technical nature of the organ, but my guess is that this is caused by a problem with an 'air bladder' used primarily for molting. I haven't disected any of my pets so I really have no idea...does somebody know if there is such a separate organ?

No there isn't. Insects do not have air bladders, though they do have a number of "air sacs" in the thorax and/or abdomen. These are discrete sacs that can be compressed by hemolymph concentration and muscular action, (particularly those of flight) but they are not going to cause abdominal swelling. It is interesting that you should associate such an organ with molting. In some critters, true flies, for example, the air sacs tend to inflate after eclosure -- you're trying to confuse us again on this eclosure/ecdysis issue, aren't you!  

I am familiar with the action of the malpighian tubules, active transport of nitrogenous waste analogous to our renal tubules if you don't get too picky, but I have no idea what happens if they fail. I suspect that free nitrogen may occur as a result of the breakdown of such waste in the hemolymph. The consequent elongation of the abdominal muscles would inhibit hunger.

Don't be fooled by Superfreak's "I'm just a mantis lover doing my best" posture, by the way. It's not saying much, but I'm pretty that she knows a lot more insect anatomy and physiology than I. I would have made a midline incision and probably gone right through the ventral nerve cord.  Skill and knowledge make a good combination in any field.

Nearly forgot! Here's a really good old article on the function of insect air sacs: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v198/...s/198106a0.html


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## kamakiri (Apr 10, 2009)

For the puncture, that's what I was thinking would be best, and just trying to avoid the spiracles which should be clearly visible. I would go ventral of the 'line' of spiracles.

My theory about air being the fluid to compress for molting is just based on my observations during molting. And I'm not talking about the molt being simply the act of shedding tho old skin, but just after, when the abdomen is fully expanded/stretched. Usually just after the legs are free and it is really just the last couple of segments holding on. Since the mass of the mantis does not increase after molting (actually decreased due to the loss of the exuvium), the significant change in size of a mantis while distended must be due to air. Shortly thereafter, the abdomen is deflated and no liquid is lost. Makes me think air was used for that last step. I would doubt the air sacs would be involved, except in conjunction with such an organ.


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## Rick (Apr 10, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> For the puncture, that's what I was thinking would be best, and just trying to avoid the spiracles which should be clearly visible. I would go ventral of the 'line' of spiracles. My theory about air being the fluid to compress for molting is just based on my observations during molting. And I'm not talking about the molt being simply the act of shedding tho old skin, but just after, when the abdomen is fully expanded/stretched. Usually just after the legs are free and it is really just the last couple of segments holding on. Since the mass of the mantis does not increase after molting (actually decreased due to the loss of the exuvium), the significant change in size of a mantis while distended must be due to air. Shortly thereafter, the abdomen is deflated and no liquid is lost. Makes me think air was used for that last step. I would doubt the air sacs would be involved, except in conjunction with such an organ.


I've seen the inflation on mantids that just molted. In one case I had it was an adult female that was very old. She died soon after blowing up.


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 10, 2009)

Rick said:


> I've seen the inflation on mantids that just molted. In one case I had it was an adult female that was very old. She died soon after blowing up.


Did the post-moult bloating go away sponateously? If so, how long did it take to "disappear?


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## Rick (Apr 11, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Did the post-moult bloating go away sponateously? If so, how long did it take to "disappear?


I lost count how many times i've seen mantid that just molted blow up. It happens right after molting while they are still hanging from the old skin. It goes away.


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## Katnapper (Apr 11, 2009)

How is she now, Olga?


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## superfreak (Apr 12, 2009)

Just died.  She held on for ages. Ah well.


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## Katnapper (Apr 12, 2009)

Sorry to hear.  But at least you both tried your best.


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 12, 2009)

First: Sorry to hear about yr Rain Forest mantis, Superfreak, but like Katt says, you both fought the good fight.

Second: Tom, the wild caught female S. limbata who laid her first ooth for me on the day that I found her, _in extremis_, on 100408 (041008) died today. No period of senescence for her. She was occasionally still laying a tiny ooth, just to show that she could do it, in season or out, and she chased down and ate a bee yesterday. She had the Right Stuff.

Mija has advised me that I should mount my mantids, "for remembrance sake," so I shall do that.

I shall light a Special Candle for both mantids before the shrine of the Great Mantis Goddess (Blessed be Her Name) and consign them to Her care.

Damn!

"and all the trumpets sounded for them on the other side"


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## revmdn (Apr 12, 2009)

Sorry


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## superfreak (Apr 13, 2009)

Meh, it happens. Her sister moulted to sub-sub-adult today.


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## Headspace (Apr 13, 2009)

> didnt want to do it completely ventrally as their hearts and nerve chords run along there, no?


They do, but you'd really have to push to do damage to it.

I dissected one of my mantids after it had died (the thread is somewhere around here) and the nervous system is tougher than it's made out to be when you look at a drawing of it. I had to look to find the abdominal ganglia.


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## kamakiri (Apr 16, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Second: Tom, the wild caught female S. limbata who laid her first ooth for me on the day that I found her, _in extremis_, on 100408 (041008) died today.


Sorry to hear Phil  

...back to the inflation in the late phase of molting...here's a sample of what I mean:







I should have also taken a 'deflated' pic after that, but it is nearly paper thin as I am sure you are familiar with your_ S. limbata_


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## superfreak (Apr 17, 2009)

Thats definitely not what i meant. Ive seen my mantids moult many times and never been concerned with inflation, because it wasnt this obvious. She turned into a balloon  Ah well, her sister is getting bigger and bigger by the day


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## kamakiri (Apr 17, 2009)

superfreak, I know that's not what was going on with your late mantis. The picture is a response to a side discussion between posts #10 thru #14 about the mechanism that allows a mantis to compress liquid or air, and where the space or organ may be to do so.


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 17, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> superfreak, I know that's not what was going on with your late mantis. The picture is a response to a side discussion between posts #10 thru #14 about the mechanism that allows a mantis to compress liquid or air, and where the space or organ may be to do so.


Yeah, we really should do this swelling thing, because there is a nice, well known cause. So for once, a sensible question can have a reasonable answer.

Insect "blood" or hemolymph performs many of the functions of blood, but instead of being contained in a closed vascular system, it bathes the insect's organs. Like air in a balloon, it also exerts pressure on the exoskeleton, and where that is thin, typically in the abdomen, keeps it more or less turgid. It is capable of exerting a wide range of pressure. I don't know about mantids, but in the housefly, it can increase fivefold (that's like yr systolic B/P going from 120 to 600mm/Hg!) Pressure is increased or decreased according to the insect's water and/or air intake through the mouth. Here: This is the best Internet treatment of the insect's circulatory system that I know: http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/ent425/tut...irculatory.html

I don't think that this increased hemolymph pressure against a moulting mantid's new, soft skin would do much to help ecdysis, though. The only molting action that I can think of, is contraction and relaxation of the abdominal muscles to help work the old skin loose. Certainly, too much pressure of the new skin against the old would make shedding of the latter more difficult. Once the old skin is gone, though, the new skin maintains its integrity while it hardens due to the internal pressure exerted by the hemolymph. A second function of this increased pressure is to fill the wing veins after eclosure, which is one reason why I tend to favor an environmental explanatin for your "crumpled wing" mantids.

I think that that accounts for the abdominal swelling of your mantids immediately after ecdesis, and the return to normal thereafter, but another environmental condition may affect the wing problem. Environmetally, the onset of ecdysis tends to be governed by photoperiod. In the wild, (and often in our pots) the mantis normally molts under the cover of darkness, when its period of vulnerability is less likely to allow its being eaten. At night, higher ambient humidity also tends to decrease. It is a fairly common sight to see newly emerged insects such as butterlies "pumping their wings" first thing in the morning as the sun catches them (well, it is if you get outside early enough  ). In bug rooms, where we often work with the lights on way too late (right Katt?) that rhythm is disrumpted and may adversly affect the process. Perhaps it is also worth noting that there is no experimental evidence (unless someone just snuck some past me!) to demonstrate that increased ambient humidity facilitates ecdysis.

So there you go. The part about hemolymph pressure mechanism is pretty much text book stuff, though I'm sorry to say that I didn't find anything very useful on the internet, though you may find something useful to show us. The rest is more speculative, but I don't think that it contradicts any known facts.

I hope that this may be of some help.

HaHa! After sending this, I went back to the URL above to do a self-test and came across another great discussion, athttp://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/ent425/library/tutorials/internal_anatomy/molting.html on the hormonal cycle that produces ecdysis. At the top of the article, there is what I, in my computer-illiterate way, thought was one of the worst graphs I have ever seen.Then I found that it is deliberately incomplete and that you have to hover over each of the colored enzymes in order to see its place in the cycle! Now all I have to do is copy the graph and name all the bits! What fun!


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## cloud jaguar (Apr 17, 2009)

Sorry for your loss Superfreak and Phil - that always blows when one of our chirpy pets ascends to that mystic garden in the skies.


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## kamakiri (Apr 17, 2009)

Phil, thanks for the research! The sinuses/diaphragms are exactly what I was thinking. I had no idea there were 3 distinct chambers, but a failure of the regulating system in either or any of the sinus(es), would cause this problem as found in superfreak's mantis. I always suspected that air was ingested orally for this function and not a part of the respiratory system as I mentioned earlier.

But I think I'm not being clear about the normal function of the post-molt inflation. This is not a problem, nor is it part of the early phases of ecdysis. It is my belief that it is simply a normal part of the final shaping/stretching/hardening process once most of the mantis is out of the old exoskeleton as shown in my picture (forgive me for not rotating it - the manits is hanging head-down). The inflation of the abdomen never happens earlier, that would be a mess. I've watched it many times for all the species I've kept. It's not just my mantises as you've said.

I do think it is possible that an environmental cause like dehydration could still be at the root of the crinkle problem for my mantises, whereby enough hemolyph volume is present to molt properly first, then not enough to pump up the wings after that. None of my first batch _limbata_ were misted or watered since I got them at L1. The photo-period interruption seems much less likely to me, as I have seen mantises molting either way only 1 hour apart with the crinkle wing still finishing in darkness.

I'm thinking that the hemolyph and sinus systems work in conjuntion, and based on your post above I'm guessing you don't?

The genetic theory can still hold if there is a defect in the valving for the hemolyph system when it is time to pump up the wings. I'm sure that is done at a faily high pressure (not going to guess at figures) simply based on the relatively small diameter wing vein system compared to say a butterfly which has further spaced, but larger veins.

Not sure what you are pointing out with the example of butterflies pumping their wings in the morning relating to humidity. My understanding is that the morning pumping is just to collect and distribute heat to muscles in preparation for flight.

Forgive me if I'm creating more confusion for you! :lol:


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 18, 2009)

As regards the post-molt swelling that you portrayed in your pic, Kamakiri, I am in complete agreement. That doesn't mean that we're right, but at least we're not arguing about it.  

The reference to butterfies flexing their wings in the morning had absolutely no bearing on the topic whatsoever. When I wrote it, I had not had breakfast, and a combination of mild hypoglycemia and the effects of a hallucinatory drug that I take "for scientific purposes only" had caused a flock of bright neon-purple butterflies to fly around my head. That's the only explantation I can think of.

I wouldn't say that "hemolymph and sinuses work in conjunction," but rather that the sinuses contain the hemolymph during part of its journey through the insect's circulatory system.

Hemolymph just sludges passively backward through the body cavity until it gets sucked into the dorsal tube where the heart actively pumps it forward to the brain where the cycle starts over. Most of the plasma percolates through the large perivisceral sinus. The other two sinuses make sure that the dorsal tube, heart and aorta (pericardial sinus) and the nerve cord (perineural sinus) are constantly bathed in hemolymph by giving them their own compartments. All three empty into the posterior end of the dorsal tube. I assume that the two diaphramatic muscles can alter the size of each sinus, by analogy with the mammalian diaphragm that seperates the chest and abdomen. They could change the pressure of one sinus relative to another, but not the overall pressure exerted by the lymph on the cuticle.

Inflation of the wing veins is caused by muscular action (pulsatile organs) which pump the lymph into the wing veins.

I know that the foregoing is essentially correct, and also that increased hemolymph pressure can be due either to muscular contrraction or increase in fluid (plasma) volume. When it comes to the premorbid abdominal swelling of Superfreak's mantis I can only speculate, pretty much for speculation's sake. She reported that it was gas that escaped. One speculative possibility is that the Malpighian tubules failed due to disease or injury. They are usually described as akin to mammalian kidneys but also share some of the functions of the liver. It is here that catabolic nitrogenous waste is broken down, and harmful gaseous ammonia is converted to urea (remember the good old Krebb's cycle?). I have wondered if the gas in the abdomen wasn't perhaps a mixture of nitrogen, ammonia and other nasty gaseous stuff.

And that's that, until the issue of a genetic mutation comes up again. At the far end of my apartment, the neon-purple butterflies are gathering, beckoning, and I plan to join them shortly.


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