# How Intelligent are Mantids?



## anthony2001a

It's very tough to gauge, but as predators, mantids need keen eye sight and hunting instincts in order to catch their prey. These features have contributed to their ability to turn their heads to observe the world around them, lending them an air of intelligence. Unlike, say, flies which don't seem to be paying attention, when I approach my mantids, they turn their heads and make eye contact.

Years (heck decades!) ago when I raised Chinese mantids, when I came into the room, the would raise their front legs and "beg" to be picked up. This wasn't the fear display, but quite obviously a recognition that I was a part of their world and that they could walk on me, for as soon as I extended my open hand, they began crawling on it trying to get higher. If mantids had a tail, it would have been wagging like a puppy's tail.

How about other people here? Has anyone else observed signs of intelligence amongst their mantids, from recognition to other behaviors? Does anyone have any scientific evidence for tests of mantis intelligence? I'd be curious and if there are any stories, I'd love to hear them.

Anthony


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## Isis

I think that mantids posess a bit of inteligence but it is very unlikely that they recognise you as their master- I'd rather say that have a sophisticated conditioned reflexes that you interpret as intelgent behaviour.

First thing I observed is that in general, Hymenopodidae (especially Oxypilini) are more "inteligent" then other mantids. They can use shortcuts to catch the prey (they realise that they can go faster by going another way), they use gesture to comunicate, they seem to be interested by the objects they are looking at (they are very attracted to my macro lens and want to carefully study it every time I try to take a shot).

Things like being used to their owner, being fed from tweezers, not being scared away by a movement and being attracted to it are- in my opinion- a complex programed behaviour they gain when you repeat the same habit often. I suggest keeping mantis away from your sight for a couple of days- in some darker container without taking it on your hand. It will get wild and forget about you- memory would last longer if the mantis thinked. It is not inteligence then.


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## Jodokohajjio

I agree with what Isis said about conditioning. Admittedly, I didn’t pay too much attention in my intro to psych class (or even attend very often), but I seem to remember studying some stuff about Pavlov where certain behaviors could be reinforced. In Pavlov’s case, he taught dogs to salivate at the ring of a bell by ringing it and then feeding them. In this case, if you are not feeding them when you remove them from their container, maybe you reinforce their attempts to climb on you merely by allowing them more space to move around. Mantids are ambush predators and in the confines of a cage have the potential to make them restless, so getting out could be like a nice breath of fresh air!


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## Rick

> I agree with what Isis said about conditioning. Admittedly, I didn’t pay too much attention in my intro to psych class (or even attend very often), but I seem to remember studying some stuff about Pavlov where certain behaviors could be reinforced. In Pavlov’s case, he taught dogs to salivate at the ring of a bell by ringing it and then feeding them. In this case, if you are not feeding them when you remove them from their container, maybe you reinforce their attempts to climb on you merely by allowing them more space to move around. Mantids are ambush predators and in the confines of a cage have the potential to make them restless, so getting out could be like a nice breath of fresh air!


Canines and mantids are very different. I believe that while a mantis may seem intelligent it's really just acting off instincts and having reactions to it's environment.


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## OGIGA

I noticed that mantises like to climb on me and walk all over me, even if I never met them before. I'm not sure if it's because I smell like something they like or what. Maybe their claws can grip onto me really well.


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## padkison

Mantids tend to go for a higher perch. If you're looming over them, you look like something to climb up. Just a theory.


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## anthony2001a

> Mantids tend to go for a higher perch. If you're looming over them, you look like something to climb up. Just a theory.


That makes sense, except they (my old Chinese mantises from years ago), learned to recognize that I wasn't a threat and would "beg" to be picked up, even when no hand was in front of them. Usually, they would actually turn around (usually they were head down) when they saw me, and then they would climb to the top of the plant they were on and begin waving their limbs around. Now, they could see that I was too far away to reach, but they understood that I would put a hand out for them. Perhaps they were training me. LOL

Anthony


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## yen_saw

Mantis is "intelligent" in sight, lightning speed in striking, and apparently sense of hearing too. Dr. David Yager, one of the professor in University of Maryland, had performed a behaviour experiment. Here are couple of e-mail he mentioned:

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

_Hi, Yen -_

Just want to check and see how your Tarachomantis are doing.

Breeding well? Easy to keep?

Their hearing turns out to be quite interesting, so I'm

thinking about setting up a breeding colony of them. As you know

better than most people, that's a big commitment of time and effort.

I'd like to be sure they are 'lab-worthy' before I take the plunge.

Hope all is going well with you and your animals.

David

--

______________________________________

Dr. David D. Yager Office: (301) 405-7228

Associate Professor Lab: (301) 405-9541

Department of Psychology Fax: (301) 314-9566

University of Maryland

College Park MD 20742-4411

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

_Yen -_

All the mantises arrived in excellent condition. The Pseudempusa are surprisingly large for 2nd instars. Everyone in the lab is quite excited about having them. We will start the behavior experiments today with the Tarachomantis to to see if they can hear. I suspect that they can, but we've never had a species from Madagascar before, and it's a strange place biologically.

Many thanks -

David


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## anthony2001a

> I think that mantids posess a bit of inteligence but it is very unlikely that they recognise you as their master- I'd rather say that have a sophisticated conditioned reflexes that you interpret as intelgent behaviour.First thing I observed is that in general, Hymenopodidae (especially Oxypilini) are more "inteligent" then other mantids. They can use shortcuts to catch the prey (they realise that they can go faster by going another way), they use gesture to comunicate, they seem to be interested by the objects they are looking at (they are very attracted to my macro lens and want to carefully study it every time I try to take a shot).
> 
> Things like being used to their owner, being fed from tweezers, not being scared away by a movement and being attracted to it are- in my opinion- a complex programed behaviour they gain when you repeat the same habit often. I suggest keeping mantis away from your sight for a couple of days- in some darker container without taking it on your hand. It will get wild and forget about you- memory would last longer if the mantis thinked. It is not inteligence then.


Memory and intelligence are two different things. They may be linked, but they are two different things. If your mantises are using gestures to communicate, I'd say that's a sign of some intelligence, however limited it might be. Likewise, using shortcuts is something akin to a rat being timed while running a maze.

And a complex programmed behavior, if sufficiently complex, may be practically indistinguishable from intelligence, wouldn't you say? I would even argue that the ability to *learn* a complex behavior which is not instinctive is a sign of some intelligence as well.

Anthony


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## OGIGA

> Mantis is "intelligent" in sight, lightning speed in striking, and apparently sense of hearing too. Dr. David Yager, one of the professor in University of Maryland, had performed a behaviour experiment. Here are couple of e-mail he mentioned:YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
> 
> _Hi, Yen -_
> 
> Just want to check and see how your Tarachomantis are doing.
> 
> Breeding well? Easy to keep?
> 
> Their hearing turns out to be quite interesting, so I'm
> 
> thinking about setting up a breeding colony of them. As you know
> 
> better than most people, that's a big commitment of time and effort.
> 
> I'd like to be sure they are 'lab-worthy' before I take the plunge.
> 
> Hope all is going well with you and your animals.
> 
> David
> 
> --
> 
> ______________________________________
> 
> Dr. David D. Yager Office: (301) 405-7228
> 
> Associate Professor Lab: (301) 405-9541
> 
> Department of Psychology Fax: (301) 314-9566
> 
> University of Maryland
> 
> College Park MD 20742-4411
> 
> YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
> 
> _Yen -_
> 
> All the mantises arrived in excellent condition. The Pseudempusa are surprisingly large for 2nd instars. Everyone in the lab is quite excited about having them. We will start the behavior experiments today with the Tarachomantis to to see if they can hear. I suspect that they can, but we've never had a species from Madagascar before, and it's a strange place biologically.
> 
> Many thanks -
> 
> David


_Interesting experiment. When can we expect results? Or do you know what Journal it'll be published in?_


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## Isis

Anthony you take it too emotionally. Insects are automatic. The gesture language is an exception, as I said before (though I am not sure whether it has anything to do wth inteligence).

The behavior you were talking about is habituation, not inteligence. (And memory is a crutial part of inteligent thinking so it is not unrelated!)

EDIT: I didn't want to interupt the discussion about mantid hearing.

About habituation: I meant she became used to the movement of big objects and is not scared now by your hand. This is why she climbs it so eagerly.


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## Christian

Hi.

Well, judging insect intelligence is a rather complicated thing, but, for an insect, a mantis may show some higher scale of intelligence. The simplest form is some kind of learning ability and mantids are capable of learning to a certain extent.

@ Yen: for Mr. Yager: _Tarachodes_ are not from Madagaskar, but from Africa. I would suppose at least the males to hear rather well, as they fly by night. _Pseudempusa_ are from Thailand, Myanmar and the Malay Peninsula and rather difficult to breed. I wish him good results with these species. He revolutionized the view on mantid sense physiology.  

Regards,

Christian


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## yen_saw

> Interesting experiment. When can we expect results? Or do you know what Journal it'll be published in?


I am sure Dr. Yager has the result presented before, these e-mail he sent me was on Jul 2006. He always goes around the country attending/presenting his finding. ANyone interested can reach him by e-mail: [email protected]

Please don't swarm him with lot of questions though.



> Pseudempusa are from Thailand, Myanmar and the Malay Peninsula and rather difficult to breed. I wish him good results with these species. He revolutionized the view on mantid sense physiology.


Yes i haven't been in touch with Dr. Yager since 2007, wonder how is he doing with the Thai budwing mantis. He didn't mention about them when he last received some Peruvian stick mantis (?) before Chrsitmas but was asking if i can keep hundreds of marble mantis he was giving away :shock:

So Tarachomantis Aloatrana does not exist in Madagasca?


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## Christian

Hi.

Oh, there was a misunderstanding: _Tarachomantis_ is well from Madagascar, I read _Tarachodes_ for some reason. Sorry for this.

Greets,

Christian


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## anthony2001a

> Anthony you take it too emotionally. Insects are automatic. The gesture language is an exception, as I said before (though I am not sure whether it has anything to do wth inteligence).The behavior you were talking about is habituation, not inteligence. (And memory is a crutial part of inteligent thinking so it is not unrelated!)


I never said memory was unrelated to intelligence, only that they are two different things.

And the behavior is *not* habituation, but instead evidence of learning. Habituation would be a reduction in response due to repeated stimulation. If you're going to throw out a term like that, you really should understand the proper definition.

Anthony


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## yen_saw

Received a surprise e-mail from Dr. Yager yesterday asking for some mantids so pop him the question about mantids hearing, this is what he said (some text deleted) if anyone is interested

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY



Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:10:50 -0500

From: "David D. Yager" &lt;[email protected]&gt;

Hi, Yen -

********(deleted)***********

We've had quite good luck with the hearing studies. Basically, if a mantis has long wings and is a good flyer, it also has good hearing. BUT they hear only ultrasound (above 20 kHz), far above what we can hear. There are a few exceptions like Thesprotia, but overall it looks like about 80% of mantises can hear. Also mantises have only one ear located in the middle of the body - pretty strange. There still are many, many species we need to test, especially because we've found that not every species has the same type of hearing.

********(deleted)***********

Cheers,

David

===================================


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## Jodokohajjio

In the book The Praying Mantis, they have a neat section on mantis hearing. They also have an interesting experiment regarding in-flight reactions to sounds heard. The experimenters conjectured that the reason they hear sound at such high frequency is so that they can hear bats using echolocation. I heard about this book on the forum and bought it a while ago. I highly recommend it!


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## neburg964

I've also noticed my Chinese mantids waving their arms and turning to follow my movements as I walk past their enclosures. But, I've had them do a couple of other things that definitely suggest recognition to me.

1) If they were outside of their enclosures and I ignored their gestures, they would fly to me. This happened often enough that I didn't think it was a random event.

2) They also seem to have a fascination with human faces, and are always trying to climb up to mine. Normally, I would associate this behavior with a mantid's climbing instincts, but if I am holding the mantid in my hand and raise my hand above my head, they would climb down to my face.

I think the fact that a mantis will gently lick the salt from your skin without trying to bite, and will turn and attack another insect in the same instant, shows a little intelligence. Also, I've had my mantids readily come to my hand, but shy away from the hand of a stranger. Again, this appears to be a simple form of recognition.


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## awesomebillfromdawsonvill

Great post fellas! I gotta say i agree with the statement that mantids like to climb on humans, or at least large moving things. I have also noticed that a mantis left from its cage make a nice little trip and leap onto my hand while i was working with anothers container. I have also noticed them holding out their hands "begging" to be held. Just seems like a really strange behavior to try to grab onto a moving object you know is to far away. Really odd, and i always notice this behavior. If one is sitting on the edge of his container and my hand comes any where near them, they will reach out and try to grab on, or even jump to it if i wait long enough. its a little troubles some when you want the little bastids to just hold still while you do clean up.


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## anthony2001a

> I've also noticed my Chinese mantids waving their arms and turning to follow my movements as I walk past their enclosures. But, I've had them do a couple of other things that definitely suggest recognition to me.1) If they were outside of their enclosures and I ignored their gestures, they would fly to me. This happened often enough that I didn't think it was a random event.
> 
> 2) They also seem to have a fascination with human faces, and are always trying to climb up to mine. Normally, I would associate this behavior with a mantid's climbing instincts, but if I am holding the mantid in my hand and raise my hand above my head, they would climb down to my face.
> 
> I think the fact that a mantis will gently lick the salt from your skin without trying to bite, and will turn and attack another insect in the same instant, shows a little intelligence. Also, I've had my mantids readily come to my hand, but shy away from the hand of a stranger. Again, this appears to be a simple form of recognition.


Stories like this make me think that mantis intelligence has not been sufficiently researched, which was why I made my original post. There's anecdotal stories to indicate that mantids have more intellgence than your average house fly or typical insect. It's instinctive for insects to fear large animals as potential predators (i.e. bats, birds, cats, etc), yet some species of mantids seem able to go beyond this fear, making them interesting pets. Much like vertebrate fish, they can change their behavior, apparently learning to associate people with food. Being able to train an insect means that the insect can learn, implying more than simple instinct at work.

I'm not sure how one would be able to test insect intelligence, but I do think it's not studied enough in the case of the mantis.

Anthony


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## Christian

Hi.

I would suggest the "begging behavior" to be not associated with a human as such, but just with a higher perch. Mantids do this also when climbing in their cage and lunging for a distant twig. Even if you are moving, for the mantis this may just look like a approaching perch. You should not overestimate this behavior and regard ist somewhat conservatively until the opposite is proven. The stories are rather anecdotical and not scientifically proven. Anthony is right in this regard that there should be more research on this issue.

Regards,

Christian


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## neburg964

The mantis I currently have is a very wounded animal. Due to a bad molt, she has lost the use of both raptor arms (one was broken so she chewed it off at the first joint, and the other is frozen in an outstretched shape). She also lost one of her back legs.

She has learned to eat mealworms off of a toothpick and drinks from a 1/4 t. measuring spoon. When she eats, she makes no attempt to grasp her food but instead eats exactly as a child would eat from a parent's ice cream cone.

While her survival instincts are clearly working here, her behavior is a modification of standard mantis instincts. She would obviously have died were she in the wild; our care and her adaptation are what have kept her alive.

This is brand-new behavior, because up until this point she was not hand-fed but was given fruit flies which she stalked and caught on her own. So the immediate adaptability along with suppression of instinct makes me believe there is at least a simple intelligence at work. I describe mantids as high-functioning insects, and that probably is the best description.

Since many people have observed aspects of mantid behavior that more closely resembles that of vertebrate animals, a study of their behavior and intelligence is definitely warranted.


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## jplelito

I guess I will wade into the mantid intelligence discussion here... I completely agree that mantid intelligence has not been sufficiently researched.. it is one of the things I try to get done in my spare time when I am not working on my 'official' thesis project.

So, in 1968, Alan Gelperin reviewed some evidence for learning in mantids. Some of the notes from his article include 'the acts of catching and bringing prey to the mouth are improved by experience' and 'it is clear that the presence of a learning component [in mantid hunting behavior] makes it more complex than those of other invertebrates known at present.'

Later, Hector Maldonado showed that mantids learn to avoid flies on red disks (they got a shock if they struck these.. not very nice, but effective) and only catch flies on white disks. Not only that, but they would retain the memory for 8 days or more - in insects, 'learning' often is really just their little nerve cells get tired and they seem like they have learned not to do something - but in this case, the mantids would catch other prey types and still 'know' not to catch flies on red disks.

Cesar Gemeno and colleagues have also shown that male _Mantis religiosa _are more likely to approach and mate with a female when she is eating: again, the male mantid brain is capable of extracting fairly complex info from the environment (they make their move when she catches a prey item or grooms her forelegs). (Gemeno and Claramunt, 2006)

My own research also suggests that male mantids can tell when females are hungry or full, and whether or not the female is facing the male (Lelito and Brown, 2006). Presumably all of this decision making is the result of selection on males to avoid cannibalism; while not 'smart', exactly, it certainly points to strong perceptual abilities, and these are often considered the forerunner to outright intelligence.

I would point only out that when a lizard, for example, 'learns' to do something (i.e. accept an item from a human hand) to get a food reward, we view that as intelligence.. so why not an insect?

Gelperin, A. 1968. Nature 219: 399-400.

Gemeno, C. and Claramunt, J. 2006. Journal of Insect Behavior 19: 731-740.

Lelito, J. and Brown, W. 2006. American Naturalist 168: 263-269.

Maldonado, H. 1972. Physiology and Behavior 9: 435-445.


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## humantis

The surplus - and variety - of protein in the Mantid diet would theoretically make long term &amp; relatively more developed incorporative nervous/neural evolution possible, I would think.

...much the same way that human evolution's adaptation to tool use allowed for a sustained surplus of protein that fueled our neurological evolution.

Granted, there are major, major differences between the two evolutionary processes &amp; phyla here, but...


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## yen_saw

I believed each insect has its own specialty or "intelligence" in order to survive and continue for generation. i agree there are only few people doing the research for the sake of understanding the real insect world, which is a shame. As usual, people are more interested in research which relate to human, or how it benefit or affect our daily life. Actually, most of my friend only knew mantis as a bug and only 1 out of 10 people here can identify them as beneficial insect. I remember a friend from China once told me praying mantis egg cases are used as medication purpose!! Think i am a little off topic here sorry!


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## Peekaboo

> Basically, if a mantis has long wings and is a good flyer, it also has good hearing. BUT they hear only ultrasound (above 20 kHz), far above what we can hear. There are a few exceptions like Thesprotia, but overall it looks like about 80% of mantises can hear.


I always wondered how well mantids could hear. I like loud angry rock music, and many of my mantids would sway to the vibration while it was playing.


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## OGIGA

Haha, that's awesome! I thought loud angry rock is mostly bass, which has pretty low frequency. Hmm, what kind of music has lots of high pitch sounds? Classical?


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## Peekaboo

Rock music has a lot of bass and a lot of high frequency guitar. But if mantids only hear high frequency sounds, high above what we can hear, I'm guessing they were responding to the vibrations created by the bass in the music when they swayed. Well it's good to know that I haven't been blasting their little ear drums out.


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## OGIGA

They're probably responding to the high frequency guitars.

Do your mantises sway synchronously? It would be great if you get that on video and show us.


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## Jodokohajjio

Not every mantis can hear, and they have a relatively simple ear (just a membrane that is sensitive to certain frequencies of vibration). I think there's a positive correlation between how well a species can fly and how well it can hear, but I'm not certain.


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## humantis

Slightly off topic - has anyone ever had a mantis in a terrarium/vivarium with an ultrasonic fogger?


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## yen_saw

I never use ultrasonic fogger, it might be great for humidity and viewing pleasure but i think that's a little exagerated.


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## humantis

I was wondering if the ultrasonic soundwaves would aggravate or frighten a mantis... especially if it's anywhere close to the same frequency range as a bat's echolocation sounds!


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## jplelito

If they were close to the same frequency, it would result in sensory adaptation in the mantid's ear... basically the same effect as if we hear a constant loud sound, and then go into a quiet room - it would take a relatively loud noise at first, to get our attention since our ear would be 'deadened' to those quiet sounds. Or imagine what it would feel like to your nose, if you had to live in someplace awful like a candle and bath store... achk!

Probably not very nice to the mantid if it is constant. 

I have an ultrasonic fogger in my living room that I leave on constantly, but it's not near a mantid's tank (maybe 15 ft. away) so it would be safe, and it makes the room humid, which they like. They don't freak out, but now that you mention it... I should check out and see if I can figure out what the frequency of the fogger is.. I bet Dr. Yager would love this one!

"Mantids flee from ultrasonic fog-machines!" - good paper.


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## OGIGA

Is an ultrasonic fogger a humidifier?


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## humantis

> Is an ultrasonic fogger a humidifier?


It is, although not all humidifiers use ultrasonics.



> I have an ultrasonic fogger in my living room that I leave on constantly, but it's not near a mantid's tank (maybe 15 ft. away) so it would be safe, and it makes the room humid, which they like. They don't freak out, but now that you mention it... I should check out and see if I can figure out what the frequency of the fogger is..


Don't quote me on this, but if I recall correctly most ultrasonic foggers use a frequency around 90,000 kHz, well out of the range of human hearing. Bats' echolocative calls can be anywhere from 20 to 120 kHz according to this webpage - however, the fogger's gonna be a steady drone w/ very little oscillation, while bats' calls are typically bursts and sweeps of very broad freq. ranges over short periods of time. Hopefully not enough to make a mantis nervous or aggro, but also something to consider in their environment for sure.

I've been dreaming up a planted viv/terr/paludarium habitat for a mantis and an orchid or two; the fogger would probably be timed to go on for a few minutes, then off for an hour or so.


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## critterguy

It seems maybe someone needs to do a basic Y maze test on these buggers?


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## captainmerkin

I think a reasonable test of "basic intellect" would be wether a mantid can hunt using its vision rather than its relexes.

Ie: will a mantis go looking for food that is stationary, recognise it and attack it. Or does it just wait for something to go flapping past before clobbering it?

Actively looking for things to eat that are not bringing attention to themselves would indicate that the insect is actually thinking about what its doing. (in my view)

My tiny orchid 2nd instar reaches out to me when I open its tank and then jumps onto my finger whenever I reach near it, but I would hardly call it clever...

Definately an interesting subject of this question, mantids really are different from the usual bugs !


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## neburg964

I always found it interesting that whenever I tried to take pictures of my mantids, they would always try to grab the camera, or touch the lens. They seemed to be fascinated by personal electronics. I demonstrated this for my wife with one of my Chinese mantids. I put the mantid on my coffee table and then tried to take a picture of her. As soon as she saw the camera, she came walking over towards it. So I moved to a different location and she followed me, never taking her eyes off the camera. I decided to just leave the camera on the table and she crawled all over it, exploring it for a few moments until her "curiosity" was sated.

Is curiosity a sign of intelligence?


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## stevesm

I was thrilled to see my African male mantis look straight into my eyes and follow me as I turned my hand. I'm not sure that shows intelligence exactly but it does give an impression of personality.


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## Peekaboo

Did he follow you with his eyes or with his head? The lenses in mantis eyes gives the appearance that the mantis is tracking you with their eyes, when in reality it's just an illusion due to the compound lenses.


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## OGIGA

I don't think they can move their eyes... right? Their head is already excellent at turning everywhere.


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## stevesm

He rotated his head while looking at a fixed position, namely my eyes! 

This is him:







Fantastic!


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## Rick

> I always found it interesting that whenever I tried to take pictures of my mantids, they would always try to grab the camera, or touch the lens. They seemed to be fascinated by personal electronics. I demonstrated this for my wife with one of my Chinese mantids. I put the mantid on my coffee table and then tried to take a picture of her. As soon as she saw the camera, she came walking over towards it. So I moved to a different location and she followed me, never taking her eyes off the camera. I decided to just leave the camera on the table and she crawled all over it, exploring it for a few moments until her "curiosity" was sated.Is curiosity a sign of intelligence?


If sitting on a flat surface they view the camera as something to climb onto.

Mantids cannot move their eyes since somebody asked. They are insects and are not intelligent in the true sense of the word.


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## stevesm

Yes, it's just an impression of intelligence. Still compelling though.


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## Peekaboo

> I don't think they can move their eyes... right? Their head is already excellent at turning everywhere.


When I meant tracking by their eyes, I was alluding to what "appears" to be black pupils that seem directed towards you.


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## critterguy

I think that is an optical illusion that the mantis is "looking" at you.


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## AFK

mantises are definitely not intelligent. almost all instincts and reflexes. conditioning is probably getting confused with intelligence.

from what i remember, jumping spiders are the smartest of the arthropods. anyone remember if they seem to exhibit considerable intelligence too?

if i also remember correctly, octopuses are by far the most intelligent invertebrates. and yes, they exhibit intelligence.


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## captainmerkin

> mantises are definitely not intelligent. almost all instincts and reflexes. conditioning is probably getting confused with intelligence.from what i remember, jumping spiders are the smartest of the arthropods. anyone remember if they seem to exhibit considerable intelligence too?
> 
> if i also remember correctly, octopuses are by far the most intelligent invertebrates. and yes, they exhibit intelligence.


There are degrees of intelligence, mantid definately have their little sprinkling of it..

Octupus are exceptionally intelligent creatures up to the point where they will solve puzzles simply because they can


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## neburg964

> I always found it interesting that whenever I tried to take pictures of my mantids, they would always try to grab the camera, or touch the lens. They seemed to be fascinated by personal electronics. I demonstrated this for my wife with one of my Chinese mantids. I put the mantid on my coffee table and then tried to take a picture of her. As soon as she saw the camera, she came walking over towards it. So I moved to a different location and she followed me, never taking her eyes off the camera. I decided to just leave the camera on the table and she crawled all over it, exploring it for a few moments until her "curiosity" was sated.Is curiosity a sign of intelligence?
> 
> 
> 
> If sitting on a flat surface they view the camera as something to climb onto.
> 
> Mantids cannot move their eyes since somebody asked. They are insects and are not intelligent in the true sense of the word.
Click to expand...

Maybe so... but she would ignore other objects on the table, walking past them to get to the camera. And it was definitely not the largest object on the table.

We had a European mantis in our office last year that hung out on a divider between two of our desks. My partner was walking back and forth past the mantis; she would follow my partners movements, but made no attempt to go to her - until my partner took out her cellphone to tak a picture of the mantis. As soon as she did this, the mantis became animated, waving its arms around and not holding still - and then it jumped off the divider and flew to the cameraphone.

This could all be coincidence, but mantids just seem to be naturally curious creatures. And - it's just my opinion - I think curiosity implies intelligence.


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## critterguy

I think that perhaps the metal attracts the mantids in some way. Similar to how moths are attracted to a light...but they are not exactly curious about it either.

I still think someone needs to do a standard Y maze test. C'mon. It might take only an hour at most and at the least the results would be interesting.


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## OGIGA

But how do we make the mantis want to explore? They'll just stand there all day.


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## critterguy

Angle it up. In one place put a reward(a feeding). Some versions of the Y maze use a punishment for the other side, though I can't think of anything.

I know even though earthworms do not seem like bright creatures they can manage this little puzzle somewhat(dark moist place in one arm, sandpaper and a shock in the other). They also have a memory(short, but it is memory). Can probably find this reference somewhere, its a popular example in bio books.


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## lloydapalooza

i saw one of my tenodera nymphs play dead today. it straightened out its legs so that it had the silhouette of a twig and wouldn't move when you poked it. of course, this was after trying to get it to eat an earwig that pinched it. Mantids seem to learn when a certain type of prey is harmful to them and to not go for them anymore.


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## OGIGA

> i saw one of my tenodera nymphs play dead today. it straightened out its legs so that it had the silhouette of a twig and wouldn't move when you poked it. of course, this was after trying to get it to eat an earwig that pinched it. Mantids seem to learn when a certain type of prey is harmful to them and to not go for them anymore.


I saw this with a spider too. Spiders seem to like to play dead a lot when I mess with them.


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## anthony2001a

> Angle it up. In one place put a reward(a feeding). Some versions of the Y maze use a punishment for the other side, though I can't think of anything.I know even though earthworms do not seem like bright creatures they can manage this little puzzle somewhat(dark moist place in one arm, sandpaper and a shock in the other). They also have a memory(short, but it is memory). Can probably find this reference somewhere, its a popular example in bio books.


The test has to involve something that is a normal behavior. For a worm, crawling to see food/shelter is a normal behavior. For a mantis, probably not.

Mantids tend to stay in one spot and strike prey, so (assuming mantids can see in color, for example, which I don't know if they can or not) you could color a lousy tasting insect "red" with white spots and a good tasting insect with no color. Would the mantis "learn" to not strike at the bad tasting insect or even a good tasting insect colored identically? Or do they just strike at objects that are the right size?

Some Y-mazes with worms involve electricity, so that when the work crosses over two wires in one part of the Y, it gets a shock across its skin and the worm learns to crawl to the other part of the Y without the electricity. I don't see how you could do this practically with a mantis.

Anthony


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## Way.Of.The.Mantis

Surely that could kill it?


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## Birdfly

I dont know if youd call it intelligence, but i have just observed a 3rd instar _Cilnia humeralis_ nymph catch sight of some fruit flies moving around on 2 bananas suspended several inches above it and with no easy route to it. The mantis checked every route out coming from the fruit until it had, what i believe, the shortest route.It took this path and made a killing. Intelligence? who knows? they can solve some small problems!

Cheers


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## jplelito

> Mantids tend to stay in one spot and strike prey, so (assuming mantids can see in color, for example, which I don't know if they can or not) you could color a lousy tasting insect "red" with white spots and a good tasting insect with no color. Would the mantis "learn" to not strike at the bad tasting insect or even a good tasting insect colored identically? Or do they just strike at objects that are the right size?Some Y-mazes with worms involve electricity, so that when the work crosses over two wires in one part of the Y, it gets a shock across its skin and the worm learns to crawl to the other part of the Y without the electricity. I don't see how you could do this practically with a mantis.
> 
> Anthony


I think something like this was done with _Tenodera_ and milkweed bugs (these are orange and black) - reared some on toxic milkweed seeds, others on non-toxic sunflower seeds - mantids fed the toxic ones then avoided all of the bugs with the same pattern (toxic or not) but the mantids fed non-toxic bugs did not learn that until they ate a toxic one. Further, mantids had a hard time learning this response if you painted the bug grey or something uniform, so maybe they can see color, but at least they see contrast and pattern for sure.

This is similar to a learned aversion response that most creatures can do at some level.


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## Bugsincyberspace.com

Hello,

I just noticed the previous post about mantids and milkweed bugs. I noticed that my mantises don't seem to be very interested in the boxelder bugs that are crawling all over a big leaf maple in the backyard. The orchid mantises and my young pink toe tarantula don't seem at all interested in them. A few budwing mantids tried them, but then dropped them. Perhaps they just don't "taste good"? I can't imagine they'd be very toxic, feeding on maple sap exclusively. They do, however, display red warning coloration when they fly (top of their bodies, under the wings).

I thought this might be relevant because the mantids don't really seem to be interested in something that looks very much like a milkweed bug, regardless of toxicity.

Other than that, I'd like to invite everybody to view and post at the new community site. Yen Saw uploaded some photos and text this morning. Thanks Yen!

http://wiki.bidabug.org/index.php?title=Mantodea

Peter Clausen

[email protected]


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## jplelito

Boxelder bugs are in the family Rhopalidae, I think, and they make scents that repel other insects in some cases. These wouldn't be things directly absorbed from the sap they feed on (although, for the record, boxelder bugs eat a lot of other stuff, especially dead bugs and such) but things they are able to chemically modify or synthesize themselves.

Most Hemiptera (true bugs) are relatively repulsive to other insects; stink bugs, toad bugs, boxelder bugs, milkweed bugs, some planthoppers, etc. all pretty much follow this pattern.

Considering some mantids struck them and then dropped them, I would guess they have some kind of quick-acting nasty smelling compound in them that lets predators know to let go of them. Orchid mantids probably ignore them because they don't fly like a moth or bee - I've never been able to get them to eat anything but flying insects.

At any rate, it does seem like maybe there is some innate repsonse like "don't eat bug if bug = crawling and black and red/orange" kind of instinct in mantids. They avoid ladybugs too - and these are definitely toxic.


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## hsm3

OK, I can't help but put my 2 cents in. The ability of insects to learn is very well documented in the scientific literature - from flies to bees and butterflies and grasshoppers and yes, mantids. Insects learn things that will help them to survive - location of food, quality of different foods, locations to lay eggs, the list can go on and on.

Therefore I think many insects are very intelligent.

A different question that I think is at the background of this discussion is the idea of self awareness, which has only been shown in a few animals other than humans.


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## AFK

> very intelligent.


1. evolved selective blindness (a process of elimination) is not necessarily intelligence.

2. learning is not necessarily intelligence, e.g. a robot learning that X does not fit into Y so therefore it tries Z.

3. "very?" then that must make us super super elite geniuses.


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## AFK

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1640513/posts


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## hsm3

Learning is a process that occurs in the lifetime of an individual, and is a different than the evolution of visual systems. Learning may not be a qualifier for intelligence if you are asking for metacognition, the ability to be aware of ones self and what is known or unknown. Some animals do possess self-awareness and metacognition (like humans) and that is a different level of intelligence. I believe the ability to modify behavior in response to experience is a sign of intelligence, and that is why I think many insects are very smart.


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## AFK

> I believe the ability to modify behavior in response to experience is a sign of intelligence, and that is why I think many insects are very smart.


the ability to respond to stimulus is one of the most fundamental qualifiers of "life," not "intelligence." everything from robots to computers to virii to bacteria to mantises to human beings respond to stimulus and modify their behavior accordingly (and sometimes quite complicatedly too); does this make ALL of them intelligent too?


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## hsm3

There is a difference between an innate (genetic) ability to respond to a stimulus and one that is learned. Not everything can learn, and it is not a qualifier for life.

Again, I think intelligence may be defined differently by different people and philosophers, but if you consider the ability to learn as a qualifier for intelligence than insects are intelligent.


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## AFK

> There is a difference between an innate (genetic) ability to respond to a stimulus and one that is learned. Not everything can learn, and it is not a qualifier for life. Again, I think intelligence may be defined differently by different people and philosophers, but if you consider the ability to learn as a qualifier for intelligence than insects are intelligent.


*Every *living thing can learn. You are making a tautological contradiction here. In order to respond to a stimulus, the organism needs to learn that there is something to respond to. E.g. a plant comes in contact with many substances, but if it learns that a substance is water, it will respond by absorbing it. Or if a robot learns that an object is too big to fit into a container, it will keep trying another object until it fits.Nothing I said here is open to interpretation, whether among people or philosophers.

The ability to learn is not a qualifier of intelligence. The ability to adopt completely NEW behavior may be though.


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## OGIGA

hsm3, don't bother trying to make AFK understand anything. You're going to end up with personal attacks like this here because AFK considers himself an "expert on invertrebrates". Keep chitchatting with him and you'll see more and more of his bizarre definitions. Now, if you guys agreed on the key definitions before discussion, I think you will get many points across.



> Nothing I said here is open to interpretation, whether among people or philosophers.


I never thought I would live to see anyone being serious say that.


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## AFK

the irony is strong with your post, OGIGA, because your post is nothing but a personal attack.

also, i find it hilarious that there's always the same few people who can't get over the fact that my other thread was clearly a joke lol. sense of humor?


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## OGIGA

I don't know of the irony you speak of. But don't bother answering that because I don't care either.


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## AFK

Wow, I don't know what your problem is, but I've been pretty civil and respectful the whole time, and you have to come in here to give me attitude. Not cool at all.


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