# procuring live diabolicas from Africa



## Medusa Mantis (Nov 23, 2006)

I am planning to get some live diabolicas from Africa since the ooths I got from my buyer was not viable. Any suggestions on how to get them to the US with the greatest chance for survival. I need help on container size? keeping the temperature constant for the cold trip on the plane? etc.. The trip will take 3 days. Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you.

M.M.


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## Christian (Nov 23, 2006)

What supplier Do you use? If you have one which ships from Europe, you can have some from me, and their survivorship will be certainly higher. Do not expect too much from shipped specimens from Africa. Most of them will not be able to reproduce.

Regards,

Christian


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## francisco (Nov 24, 2006)

HEllo Medusa,

I really doubt that a shipment fro Africa will take 3 days,unless offcouerse you have got some parcels from you suppliers already.

Most of the people who ordered from African dealers don't have a good turn out, so I think you really need to think about it.

If you were to buy mantis from Christian or any other breader in Europe, the parcel can take from 4-7 days depending on how much you pay, and you locality in the US

It is not easy and I hope you really do a lot of research before you invest your money.

good luck

FT


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## Isis (Nov 24, 2006)

I am beginning to wonder how much time will it take to make the most amazing mantids endangered... There are no limits in afriacan insect export and so far eg. Pseudocreobotra and Idolos are being exploited rather hard. What do you think?


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## Christian (Nov 25, 2006)

Hi.

I sometimes asked myself this question, too.

Two points argue against an actual endangering of most species:

1. Most imported species are found in close vicinity of human settlements and are relatively abundant: _Sphodromantis, Parasphendale, Tenodera, Pseudocreobotra, Miomanti_s and so on.

2. The aim of the African collector or trader is to make money with as less work as possible. This is no problem, as everyone follows this paradigm. But in our case this means that they do not travel really far from their village to find something, except something special is required. That's why we always get the same genera, mostly even the same species. Species or habitats unpopulated by humans are in most cases safe from exploitation.

That's why I usually do not import anything, as I usually won't get the species I am interested in. I'm rather traveling for myself, so I can also obtain habitat infos.

Now, _Idolomantis_ is an exception: Noone knows what habitats they really inhabit, so it may be that the collector searches for them outside his usual places, which *may* lead to an overexploitation of the natural population. The collectors do this just because of the high price *we *pay for the ooths. For them, every ooth is pure money, whether it will hatch or not. From a trading point of view, the collectors have no interest that we get hatching ooths, as this means that we will not import this species any more when we are successful. I doubt they can distinguish good ooths from hatched ones, but I am not sure whether the sent ooths don't get a special "treatment" prior to shipping. The amount of non-hatching ooths (not the hatched ones; I mean ooths with non-hatching eggs inside) is by far higher that should be expected by natural circumstances. I want to emphasize that I do not want to accuse anyone, I just draw some conclusions leading to consequences for my future importing behavior.

Another point concerns us: I frequently hear complains about overexploitation of natural resources, but most of the time the worried ones are the same which continue the imports. The problem is that we do not really need quantitative imports of say, _Idolomantis_. We just needed *one* to get it here. Now there are several people which successfully breed this species, so imports are not really necessary. In fact, almost all people can be served. However, I made the experience that some guys rather paid horrible sums in order to import them than buying them from the breeders, even though they, at last, spend more money while trying to import something that they would have spent if they had bought larvae from the breeders. The logistic problems apply just to overseas exports and I really regret that there is no possibility I know of to serve the North-Americans. But the European guys and especially some "collegues" over here in Germany did behave like this and are now wondering themselves why they get just crappy ooths. Now, what do you expect: every East African trader knows some "stupid" Europeans are willing to pay incredible sums for those foamy things found in the bushes - why not assure they will continue to do it?

I do not know if _Idolomantis_ is threatened by insect trading, but some of us should ask themselves if they are experienced enough to be faced with wild-caught specimens or they will not do better with already established stocks. *They* are responsible for most of the imports, as the breeders do not need imports anymore, as they, well... breed!

Pet traders constitute a good part of the problem, as long as wild-caught specimens are cheaper than bred ones. This holds especially for reptiles, but also for some mantids.

Most discussions I read until now dealing with this issue were quite canting, as almost noone wanted to be the first to stop this kind of imports, fearing that some other will continue it.

This are some of my experiences. I have to emphasize again, *that I do not mean anyone special*. I just described "archetypes" one may be faced with over the years.


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## yen_saw (Nov 25, 2006)

> wonder how much time will it take to make the most amazing mantids endangered


It depends on how fast their habitat is being exploited. Deforestation due to human expansion and drastic climate changes would more likely contribute to their extinction sooner compared to some insect traders stealing it from thier natural habitate.


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## Christian (Nov 25, 2006)

This holds for widespread or abundant species. Some rarer or locally restricted ones may well be affected by overcollecting. These cases are relatively rare, though.

Regards,

Christian


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## Isis (Nov 27, 2006)

Well you know... there was a case of a pidgeon species so common, that people begun to hunt for it for meat. A century or so and not a single one of them survived.

What I mean is not to be too careless about invertebrate collecting. Of course- there's nothing wrong about breeding mantids but there must be an aim to rather breed than collect from the wilderness, and many people not very much into mantids (there are many like this in my country, most of them are irresponsible youngsters) buy mantids scarcer and more prone to breeders errors. Then the whole population bred in captivity just evaporates from stock and it triggers the nesessity to capture from nature...It's kinda sad.


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## Sheldon Johnson (Nov 27, 2006)

I agree with the jist of what Christian is saying. Dont import from the wild if you know theyre in culture already, its rather selfish. This message also applies to those who buy from the wild purely to sell on.

Selling ooths and nymphs is fine when you breed them youself, but we need to work with what we've got. Buying more and more stock wont help the community, ensuring that stock goes to the correct people when its being seeded is what this community needs.


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## Orin (Nov 28, 2006)

> Well you know... there was a case of a pidgeon species so common, that people begun to hunt for it for meat. A century or so and not a single one of them survived. What I mean is not to be too careless about invertebrate collecting. Of course- there's nothing wrong about breeding mantids but there must be an aim to rather breed than collect from the wilderness, and many people not very much into mantids (there are many like this in my country, most of them are irresponsible youngsters) buy mantids scarcer and more prone to breeders errors. Then the whole population bred in captivity just evaporates from stock and it triggers the nesessity to capture from nature...It's kinda sad.


To compare a bird to a mantis represents a severe lack of understanding. There are many reasons a bird can be overhunted while a mantis cannot. One is reproduction. Birds live many years and have a few young each year (or less). One female mantis will give rise to many hundreds to thousands of young in a season. Habitat destruction is the only thing that can and will bring many insects to extinction.


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## Isis (Nov 28, 2006)

...


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## Rob Byatt (Nov 30, 2006)

> I do not know if _Idolomantis_ is threatened by insect trading, but some of us should ask themselves if they are experienced enough to be faced with wild-caught specimens or they will not do better with already established stocks. *They* are responsible for most of the imports, as the breeders do not need imports anymore, as they, well... breed!


I agree completely. Tha's why I have what I have in my signature !


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## Medusa Mantis (Nov 30, 2006)

Well since my initial inquiry about procuring diabolicas from Africa recieved such varied responses, much of it has been very informative. What I hear from the responses are that there are many breeders out there but most of you are in Europe and are telling me that the shipping of this mantis to the USA is difficult. However, if some one from there can give me a ring about ideas on how to get some here in the USA, I would not have the need to go to Africa and would be all too glad to accomodate captive breeding program arleady in existince in Europe. My goal is to transfer these captive breeding programs to the USA so that we as a group would not put undue demand for wild caught mantis. Thank you for all your responses.

M.M.


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## yen_saw (Nov 30, 2006)

> What I hear from the responses are that there are many breeders out there but most of you are in Europe and are telling me that the shipping of this mantis to the USA is difficult


Exactly!!

Idolomantis is still the most expensive mantis available, but the availablity is almost zero in the US. Unless this species is more readily available at reasonable price, people will continue to try their luck with wild caught species from African dealers. So the problem is not an one way issue.

So Medusa, as Francisco suggested, invest your money wisely! Unfortunately, most African dealers have no idea caring for mantis, but go for it if you have extra money to burn. I had 4 L1 idolomantis from Stephan once and raised them up to L4 without any issue until i gave it to someone who unfortunately couldn't continue them. So I believed someone bound to get this species populated eventually. Sorry for venting out, didn't help much there Medusa i know. Sorry!


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## Medusa Mantis (Nov 30, 2006)

I agree with you 100%. We are here as hobbyists and not to make money. I know Diabolicas are difficult to get but does that justify jacking up the price so much where the ordinary hobbyist would have to resort to going directly to Africa for them because it's cheaper from there. I would be most appreciative if someone would sell me some either from USA or Europe where we as hobbyist can propagate this species in captivity for all to enjoy and admire its beauty.

M.M.


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## Christian (Nov 30, 2006)

Hi.

The price has dropped considerably since this species was available for the first time. However, there are still people thinking the price is too high. The problem is that this is no _M. religiosa_, no _T. sinensis_ or other easy species. _Idolomantis_ is, as all Empusids, a high cost species. This means that they require a considerable amount of heat, light, and food, all of which sums up to a considerable amount of money one spends until the first larvae hatch. Secondly, they are not as productive as, say, _Tenodera_.

The next point is that you, on average, won't get them cheaper in Africa, because you spend much more money on transport, hatched ooths and transport losses until you may get a vaible stock than you would have if you had bought from a breeder.

Last but not least, despite the fact that most of us are hobbyists, we also trade mantids: we sell and we buy. Thus, there is a market to which market laws apply: species which are difficult to breed or are rare will cost more then easy or abundant ones. There are and will be species not affordable for everyone. This holds for every exotic pet category. This may be not fair in the opinion of the one or another, but hey, who says the world is fair? This may sound harsh, but it isn't. It just means that nothing is for free. We had this discussion over here as well (in a much harsher tone), so this kind of complains are not new to me.

Regarding the US guys: is there noone which is willing to inform himself about overseas suppliers and custom laws? Now, come one, YOU want them, so please help me a bit! I can't do anything from my location as long as no pets can be imported into the USA.

Greets,

Christian


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## yen_saw (Nov 30, 2006)

Christian, with all respect, i don't see why you couldn't understand reason people are buying from african dealers instead.



> there is a market to which market laws apply


 Bingo! a $20 idolomantis ootheca from an african dealer compared to 20 euro per each L5 idolomantis nymph from a european breeder. Buyers will go for the african dealers because that seems to be a better deal (by the way, i haven't seen any prolific breeders selling idolomantis ootheca). I am not encouraging people to buy from african dealers but many mantis hobbyist (especially beginners) will blindly take that risk, and unfortunately, that's nothing we could do to stop it from happening, the fact that idolomantis is highly price in the market is making the situation worst. I have learned from my mistake and also advised people not to get them (from african dealers) whenever i had a chance too. Regardless of species, the same situation will happen if there is another rare amazing species newly on the market, until the supply has sufficiently fulfilled the demand.


> Regarding the US guys: is there noone which is willing to inform himself about overseas suppliers and custom laws?


 As far as i know (based on an entomologist working in US insect museum), only a proper permit (a red color band) will met the custom rule. All parcels without permit will be on its own risk. ALthough the rule is vague for certain species, idolomantis is definately the one that required permit. So for US buyers, all imports of exotic mantis is on your own risk as regular hobbyist including myself will not be able to get a permit unless the rule is relaxed in the future. My hands are full with other species of mantis right now but i would like to try out idolomantis in the future, so i would really like to know as many idolomantis breeders as possible, which include yourself Christian. Stephan was the last one I knew before i gave up on this species.


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## Christian (Nov 30, 2006)

> Quote:there is a market to which market laws apply
> 
> Bingo! a $20 idolomantis ootheca from an african dealer compared to 20 euro per each L5 idolomantis nymph from a european breeder. Buyers will go for the african dealers because that seems to be a better deal (by the way, i haven't seen any prolific breeders selling idolomantis ootheca). I am not encouraging people to buy from african dealers but many mantis hobbyist (especially beginners) will blindly take that risk, and unfortunately, that's nothing we could do to stop it from happening, the fact that idolomantis is highly price in the market is making the situation worst. I have learned from my mistake and also advised people not to get them (from african dealers) whenever i had a chance too. Regardless of species, the same situation will happen if there is another rare amazing species newly on the market, until the supply has sufficiently fulfilled the demand.


Well, as I said, the African stuff seems to be cheaper on a first glimpse, but it isn't, as you will pay more in order to get a breeding stock. A example: Formerly, FedEx transported live stuff. There was a parcel for us with larvae, which took three days to arrive, nevertheless most of them died or were not fit enough to reproduce later, due to rude handling by the collectors. Now, this parcel was about 400 Euros plus (!) the price for the larvae.

Ooths seem to be cheaper, but they mostly don't hatch.

Now consider what you would get for this money from a breeder!

However, I talked about the hobbyist market dealing with selfbred stuff. Wild-caught specimens are always cheaper, regardless of species. The point is: it's everyones responsability to decide whether he wants to contribute to nature exploitation or not. If the decision falls to captive bred specimens, one will pay more but get good stuff. This precludes the trade of ooths in this species, as not every ooth hatches, even in captivity. You need at least 10 adults for a good breeding start as not all males want to copulate and not every copulation is successful. This means 15 to 20 young larvae! You can start with less, but the risk is higher.

Imports from time to time should be ok for people who need some new blood (or think they need it - all this "fresh blood" stuff is overconsidered), but newbies should not do it. Otherwise the species may well get on a red list one day or even get preventively protected. As I said, most contribution to such an issue is canting, as everyone wants the beasts on the one hand, but complains about the things associated with pet trade on the other.

As everyone seems to want to make his own mistakes, regardless of what one is telling them, I do not give any advices any more. Rather something like: "Import what you want, but don't ask me afterwards!":wink:

Regards,

Christian


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## Rob Byatt (Dec 6, 2006)

Always best to buy harder species from a breeder.


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