# What's the story behind the L's



## sk8erkho (Jan 25, 2007)

Cheers all!

What's the story behind the L's? To a relative not-so-newbie I have been wondering about it's reference since I first heard of the term inre to the mantids, only! Is L as in Level 1,2,3,4,5? And as one other member as curious as I put it, does L1 mean beginning life stage and thus L5 meaning last level of life as I have not heard of L 6,7,8,9,10.

Any takers??

Regards,

Khori


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## OGIGA (Jan 25, 2007)

That's a good question and I also wonder. Apparently, some people debated about what is L1 and L2, saying that L2 is the first stage when the mantis can walk around. I personally don't know so I hope someone smart will answer.


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## Ian (Jan 25, 2007)

There is a huge thread about this somewhere else, use the search feature and you shall find


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## Orin (Jan 26, 2007)

> Cheers all!
> 
> What's the story behind the L's? To a relative not-so-newbie I have been wondering about it's reference since I first heard of the term inre to the mantids, only! Is L as in Level 1,2,3,4,5? And as one other member as curious as I put it, does L1 mean beginning life stage and thus L5 meaning last level of life as I have not heard of L 6,7,8,9,10.
> 
> ...


L is an abbreviation of the word Larven-stadium which is the German term equivalent to the English term *instar*.

The first instar hatches from the egg and each instar after that is preceded by a molt.

Adult is not an instar and most people lose track before instar 5.

There is no nine or ten in mantids but there are much higher numbers for a few other types of inverts.


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## Rob Byatt (Jan 26, 2007)

I posted a link to this this morning, but for some reason it was removed, so I've just copied and pasted my origianal words this time  .............

More and more people are refering to insect nymphal stages using the prefix 'L'. The only reason people are doing this in the UK is because a lot of the insects we have now originated from Europe or Germany.

In Germany they refer to the nymphal stage of insects as 'Larven', hence the abbreviation 'L'. In the UK we already have a long established word - it is *instar*.

We should refer to nymphal insects as 1st instar; 3rd instar etc. We already have our own language; others in Europe do not adopt instar, so why do we use Larven ?!

It is only because dealers have bought in stock from aboard and were unaware of the correct way of naming an immature specimen, so stock was sent out labelled with an 'L'.

I feel better now. Look how happy I was when people starting to use italics for scientific names !!!  

Rob.

Forgot to add this before !

here is a reference from a respected entomological book.

The intervals between the ecdyses are known as stages or _stadia_, and the form assumed by an insect during a particular stadium is termed an _instar_. (Imms, A.D. 1964. A general Textbook af Entomology. London: Methuen &amp; Co. inc.. p.222.)


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## sk8erkho (Jan 26, 2007)

Far out!!  I wonder what it is referred to as here in the states or perhaps it is the larven reference as I am totally unfamiliar with the "instar" reference. I'm going to research this and see how far it takes me. Deeply appreciated guys. Really far out info!! :wink:

Thanks much!!

Regards!!

Khori


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## Rob Byatt (Jan 26, 2007)

> Far out!!  I wonder what it is referred to as here in the states or perhaps it is the larven reference as I am totally unfamiliar with the "instar" reference. I'm going to research this and see how far it takes me. Deeply appreciated guys. Really far out info!! :wink: Thanks much!!
> 
> Regards!!
> 
> Khori


Khori,

it will be instar as you are English speaking :wink: Like I said before, the only reason we use 'L' (note it isn't even the full term !) is because of dealers 'passing on' the stock as they buy it.

Rob.


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## sk8erkho (Jan 27, 2007)

Got it!! :wink:


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## Christian (Jan 28, 2007)

Hi.

Orin was right: the terminus "L" is derived from the German word "Larvenstadium", what means "instar" in English. You can name it what you will, as long as the instar is right. Most mantids have 6 to nine instars, and after German L5 or L6 people often switch to "subadult" or sometimes even to the horrible word "subsubadult".:shock:

Even if a terminus like L1 or L5 is originally from Germany, you can continue to use it; many termini have passed the language barriers and become established in other languages in the original spelling. Nothing argues against using our termini as well as against finding an adequate English substitute. It's just preferences or usefulness, sometimes just tradition. So, it's nothing about it.

The real discussion over here was about whether the first mantid instar to be named L1 or L2. This is because mantids have an additional stadium called prelarva, that are the wormlike mantids hatching out the ooth and molting immediately. It was argued by some authors (e.g. Ehrmann), that due to this additional stadium, the prelarva has to be named L1 and thus, the young nymphs are in fact L2. This led to a considerable confusion, people selling freshly hatched larvae as L1 or L2.

However, the prelarva has in fact turned out long ago to be NOT an own instar, as the prelarval cuticle is just an embryonic envelope helping the young mantid to hatch from the ooth. The first instar is already there, just covered by the embryonic cuticle, which is shed immediately after hatching. So, the little mantids which have hatched out an ooth are in fact real L1 and not L2.

Real instars differ between molts and partly resorb the old cuticle prior to shedding. A molt is a physiological process and cannot be compared to the simple cover of a prelarval cuticle. Prelarvas are found in other taxa as well and noone termed them "first instar".

Regards,

Christian


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## jandl2204 (Jan 29, 2007)

> Even if a terminus like L1 or L5 is originally from Germany, you can continue to use it; many termini have passed the language barriers and become established in other languages in the original spelling. Nothing argues against using our termini as well as against finding an adequate English substitute. It's just preferences or usefulness, sometimes just tradition. So, it's nothing about it.Regards,
> 
> Christian


I have argued this for quite some time though admittedly a nominal few have been very reluctant to accept this argument.

Is there no truth in the argument that we have for along time accepted 'L' as the most common and seemingly the most appropriate means to label mantis that we have in culture. I by no means which to use any conflicting nomenclature.

I feel more confortable to use the abbreviation 'L' so long as my point is understood and as far as i am concerned 'L' is the most widely donned term within our hobby.

It is frequently used by The British, Americans North and South, Canadians and most European countries obviously including the UK and Germany. So i like many will continue to use the abbreviation 'L'. But by no means am going to depart from using instar when i feel it is necessary.

Lee


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## yen_saw (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi Lee, is up to you what you like to name them as long as you get it right. I have noticed most entomologists in english speaking country (including Brisitsh coloniel countries like Malaysia) using the word instar but they are some in the US that used L as well. Believed the term "L" is widely use because German hobbysit and entomologist are head and shoulder above others in entomology and its influence in current insect market. There is no right or wrong here as Christian mentioned. "L" is widely use in insect trading and "instar" - which is the same as Larvae - is widely used in any text book.


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## jandl2204 (Jan 29, 2007)

Indeed i know where you are coming from. When referring to stages i use the term instar when trading or writing in general i tend to use the abbreviation 'L' If i were to use the abbreviation 'i' i am not certain that my point would be conveyed particularly well.

I prefer the abbreviation 'L' for a number of reasons generally it is widely accepted as the norm particularly when we refer to the stage our mantids are or when we trade.

However, if i were to write (particularly if it were in an academic context) i would use the term instar.

Lee


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