# Heat lighting length on time



## Katnapper (Nov 10, 2008)

I'm wondering if leaving my heat lamp on during the night will adversely affect my mantids, since they don't get the darkness of the regular day/night cycle? I'm keeping them in a bathroom for now until I figure out a better place. I keep the door shut to keep the cats out and the humidity in (I keep the sink filled with water in addition to their regular mistings). I keep the house thermostat set on 72f. But with the weather turning colder, it just seems a little cooler than the rest of the house in there without the heat lamp on sometimes, even though there is a small forced air register. The mantids are not right under the lamp, but it's always bright in there when I have it on. Do I need to turn it off to give them "night" sometimes?


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 10, 2008)

I'm wondering if leaving my heat lamp on during the night will adversely affect my mantids, since they don't get the darkness of the regular day/night cycle? I'm keeping them in a bathroom for now until I figure out a better place. I keep the door shut to keep the cats out and the humidity in (I keep the sink filled with water in addition to their regular mistings). I keep the house thermostat set on 72f. But with the weather turning colder, it just seems a little cooler than the rest of the house in there without the heat lamp on sometimes, even though there is a small forced air register. The mantids are not right under the lamp, but it's always bright in there when I have it on. Do I need to turn it off to give them "night" sometimes?

Katnapper:

My mantises, including some exotic L4 nymphs, (yes! I bought some babies!) are doing very nicely with night time temps of 70F. Most tropical countries that I have visited had temperatures substantially lower than that at night in winter.

But if you feel more comfortable keeping the lamp on 24/7, you might consider one of the following to give your critters some zzzs:

Put any small conainers in a larger container and cover everything with a cloth at night.

According to this site: http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/ent425/tut...olorvision.html insects can't see red, so you might try switching to an infrared bulb in your heat lamp. The added advantage of this is that if you have to visit your mantises in the middle of the night, the toilet seat will be nice and warm. :lol:


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## mrblue (Nov 10, 2008)

you may find part of this thread useful:

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?sh...hythm&amp;st=40

just pages 3 and 4 really. see what you think. personally i think it is a good idea to offer a day and night cycle (light and temp). if you are worried about the drop in night temps, maybe a heatmat would be a good idea?


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## Rick (Nov 10, 2008)

I don't use any kind of heat lamps (why do you?) but if you are going to use them it may be useful to turn them off at night as is natural.


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## sidewinder (Nov 10, 2008)

Rick said:


> I don't use any kind of heat lamps (why do you?) but if you are going to use them it may be useful to turn them off at night as is natural.


Rick,

What do you use to keep tropical mantids at appropriate temperature and humidity levels? How would you do this if you lived in a colder area than the southeast (USA).

Scott


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## hibiscusmile (Nov 10, 2008)

Here's my two cents! I believe they need night just like any other living creature, human or otherwise,

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that _it was_ good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

So now that we have established that,

[SIZE=12pt]As someone said on here, cover them with a towel or put them on a tv or radio or vcr or freezer that gives off heat. This way they will stay warm and still have night. Remember the night is always cooler than the day even in the desert  [/SIZE]


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## sidewinder (Nov 10, 2008)

Let's say you don't have a TV, VCR, freezer, etc. to put your mantid enclosures on. What do you use then? Do you use a heat source from the bottom or side? What kind of heat source? Do you use incandescent or fluorescent lights? The former provide heat while the latter does not. But, if you lighting to provide heat, what do you do at night?

Scott


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## hibiscusmile (Nov 10, 2008)

I use room temp for most of mine, some have to have heat tape and I turn it down at night and up in the day. ps, if no one has any of those electric thingies, they are probably better off not worring about a mantis needs, they need to take care of theirselves first. And if worse comes to worse, put the little fella under your shirt, body heat is fab! :lol:


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## sidewinder (Nov 10, 2008)

hibiscusmile said:


> I use room temp for most of mine, some have to have heat tape and I turn it down at night and up in the day. ps, if no one has any of those electric thingies, they are probably better off not worring about a mantis needs, they need to take care of theirselves first. And if worse comes to worse, put the little fella under your shirt, body heat is fab! :lol:


Rebecca,

Room temperature doesn't work well for tropical species if the temperature drops into the low 60's and high 50's F at night, does it? And I was referring to people that don't want their mantids on top of their appliances...it can look a little tacky. What then? Should heat come from the sides or the bottom of the enclosure? Should the light source provide heat? If you you use the light source to provide heat what should be done at night when the light is off?

Does anyone here use a quality thermostat (e.g. Herpstat) to control heating devices so night and day temperatures are well controlled?

By the way, I am asking for opinions from anyone here, not just Rebecca or Rick.

Scott


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## mrblue (Nov 10, 2008)

salomonis said:


> Rebecca,Room temperature doesn't work well for tropical species if the temperature drops into the low 60's and high 50's F at night, does it? And I was referring to people that don't want their mantids on top of their appliances...it can look a little tacky. What then? Should heat come from the sides or the bottom of the enclosure? Should the light source provide heat? If you you use the light source to provide heat what should be done at night when the light is off?
> 
> Does anyone here use a quality thermostat (e.g. Herpstat) to control heating devices so night and day temperatures are well controlled?
> 
> ...


i can only speak for myself in terms of the climate in this country (london/england/uk), the room temperatures of my house and the mantids i keep but room temperature on its own is not enough for some species, certainly not in autumn and winter. i have lamps on during the day providing heat and light. i also have heatmats on 24/7. i have never used a thermostat but i have a thermometer that records highs and lows, so every so often i can monitor the highs and lows of the mantis containers to see what kind of temps they are reaching during the day and night. once i have it setup, i dont really have any need for a thermostat.


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## Katnapper (Nov 10, 2008)

I guess I'm just paranoid they'll get too cold and die...  they're so little and don't have any way to warm themselves... they're dependent on me to keep them at the right temps.  Thank you all for the information, opinions, and links... it's all been helpful to me. I've decided I need to quit being so worried about them freezing to death. It's not like I keep the house frigid. I guess I'm just inexperienced and don't want anything to happen to them. But as has been suggested, night time_* is *_naturally cooler; and it's really been worrying me when I keep the light on overnight, and not give them the darkness of natural night. So off the lights go at night. Thank you all again... it eases my mind.

Oh, just in case it makes a difference.... I've got Carolina adults, a Chinese adult, Ghost nymphs, Giant Asian nymphs, and Giant Shield nymphs. It's the tropical species/nymphs that I always worry about. :huh:


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## sidewinder (Nov 11, 2008)

Katnapper,

No, I don't think you are paranoid at all. I think you should be concerned with day/night temperatures, the humidity, and the photoperiod to which you expose your tropical mantids. Local species are less of an issue. But, for best results with local and tropical species, you should duplicate what the species sees in their natural environment.

Based on data found in _The Praying Mantids_ for tropical species that live near the equator, this means 12 to 13 hour long days and 11 to 12 hour long nights. It means 28° to 30° C during the day with a 5° to 7° C drop at night. The relative humidity levels should be in the 50 to 70% range for nymphs and slightly less for adults. Misting is essential. Air turnover is important too. For some species, emulating dawn and dusk may be important as well.

Can tropical mantids live without such precise care? Sure. But will they do their best? No way. Will they breed successfully? Maybe. But they will not be as prolific as they could be and breeding successfully over multiple generations may be an issue.

I am sure glad I have a HerpStat Pro thermostat to use. I just have to figure out what I am going to use to heat my mantid enclosures.

Scott


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 11, 2008)

salomonis said:


> I am sure glad I have a HerpStat Pro thermostat to use. I just have to figure out what I am going to use to heat my mantid enclosures.
> 
> Scott
> 
> ...


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## Rick (Nov 11, 2008)

salomonis said:


> Rick,What do you use to keep tropical mantids at appropriate temperature and humidity levels? How would you do this if you lived in a colder area than the southeast (USA).
> 
> Scott


I don't use anything. Never have. My mantis room is also my computer room. Sure it cools down at night but it also does in the wild.


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## sidewinder (Nov 11, 2008)

PhilinYuma,

My point was that keepers should take care to provide appropriate temperature, humidity, and photoperiod for their mantids.

One shouldn't keep mantids at the same temperature all the time. They shouldn't be exposed to light 24 hours a day. Putting them on top of an appliance may not be the best thing to do.

If we want the mantids to thrive and reproduce, it is best to make a serious effort to get the environment correct. I was looking through the older posts on this topic and I see that I am not the first person to mention this. I suppose I too will face the same response these other people got and, like them, determine not bother to mentioned it again since it appears futile to do so.

The HerpStat Pro thermostat was something I had from another endeavor. At most it will handle four enclosures. Two if you use it to control the lights. And, for what it does, it is a bargain at ~$300!

S-


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## mrblue (Nov 11, 2008)

salomonis said:


> *If we want the mantids to thrive and reproduce, it is best to make a serious effort to get the environment correct*. I was looking through the older posts on this topic and I see that I am not the first person to mention this. I suppose I too will face the same response these other people got and, like them, determine not bother to mentioned it again since it appears futile to do so.


i dont know what posts you mean but i completely agree.


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## hibiscusmile (Nov 11, 2008)

I totally agree too!


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 11, 2008)

hibiscusmile said:


> I totally agree too!


Seven more needed for a minyan!


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## Orin (Nov 13, 2008)

Mantids may have no problem adjusting to constant daylight but I don't know that anyone has studied that parameter or for what possible reason.

Room temperature is usually qualified as 72-75 degreees Fahrenheit. If you keep your tropical or temperate species cooler than that they usually don't do very well. Some people keep their houses at 58F to save money, that's not room temperature.


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## sidewinder (Nov 13, 2008)

Orin said:


> Mantids may have no problem adjusting to constant daylight....


The only animals that might not have a problem with constant daylight are some blind animals or those that live near the arctic circle. Insects that are used to a day/night photoperiod should not be exposed to constant light if you want them to live a normal life span and reproduce. Such a significant change in circadian rhythm does not promote health. It promotes stress.

Scott


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## Orin (Nov 13, 2008)

salomonis said:


> It promotes stress.


You're welcome to your opinion but you have nothing to back it up. I don't believe constant daylight is a good thing for mantids, but it may well be harmless.


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## sidewinder (Nov 13, 2008)

Orin,

My "opinion" has a lot of science behind it for animals in general. Specific to mantids, here are some quotes form the _Rearing and Breeding Mantids_ chapter of _The Praying Mantids_:

"A consistent daily light cycle is critical for the well being of all animals."

"There is anecdotal evidence that inappropriate day length may increase the number of eggbound females in temperate species."

"[Causes of mortality]...anything that disrupts the normal hormonal patterns of nymphal development can also cause problems. This underscores the need for stable and appropriate lighting, temperature, humidity, and food supply."

I think I will take the "opinion" of someone, Dr. David Yager, that runs a lab that has raised over 90 species of mantids over period of at least 15 years over yours or mine.

Scott


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## mrblue (Nov 13, 2008)

Orin said:


> You're welcome to your opinion but you have nothing to back it up. I don't believe constant daylight is a good thing for mantids, but it may well be harmless.


even IF there was absolutely no evidence for lack of a day/night cycle being harmful, theres no practical reason not to offer it. i say if in doubt or in an absence of evidence, go with common sense/nature.


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## Orin (Nov 13, 2008)

Solo,

Yager has no data on keeping mantids under constant daylight and I imagine you understand the quotes you pulled are just, at best, anecdotal guestimates.

MrBlue, in nature only approximately 2 of every 200-2,000 mantids hatched ever reach adulthood. A hobbyist with that record wouldn't be one you'd want to emulate.


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## mrblue (Nov 13, 2008)

Orin said:


> MrBlue, in nature only approximately 2 of every 200-2,000 mantids hatched ever reach adulthood. A hobbyist with that record wouldn't be one you'd want to emulate.


unless you are suggesting that so few reach adulthood in nature because they are exposed to a day and night cycle then that is a completely irrelevant and slightly absurd point to make, in the context of this discussion


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## sidewinder (Nov 13, 2008)

Orin said:


> Solo,Yager has no data on keeping mantids under constant daylight and I imagine you understand the quotes you pulled are just, at best, anecdotal guestimates.
> 
> MrBlue, in nature only approximately 2 of every 200-2,000 mantids hatched ever reach adulthood. A hobbyist with that record wouldn't be one you'd want to emulate.


Orin,

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Dr. Yager is far more experienced at raising mantids than you or anyone else here. He has probably forgotten more about raising mantids than you or anyone else here will ever know. Yet you dismiss his text saying it is "anecdotal guestimates"?

These mantids evolved other hundreds of thousands of years to thrive in the environments we find them in today. The environment they experience in their native habitats *IS* what is best for them. Negative aspects of their environments, including predation, competition, food supply, and extreme weather, are a few major reasons why so few mantids make it to adulthood. If hobbyists do their job right, those issues don't exist or are severely mitigated.

Scott


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 14, 2008)

[SIZE=10pt]Admin Note: A few concerning posts had been temporarily set to invisible in this topic. After (prior) recent events involving deleted posts, our new policy as moderators is to temporarily set the posts to invisible while we get a second moderator's opinion on them. We made this change to ensure that moderators were acting fairly towards members they may have personal disagreements with. It is a difficult situation for me to mediate when concerning posts are deleted, but when we set them to invisible, the trail of evidence is more clear.[/SIZE]

In this particular case (this topic on "Heat lighting length on time"), I have reset the questionable and contentious posts back to visible. It's okay for people to have differing opinions, but there is a fine line that we must all walk. It is okay to attack another's opinion, but not okay to attack them as a person. For future reference, if anybody has a problem with the way this forum is managed, the appropriate response is NOT to start a new topic to vent your frustrations. The appropriate response IS to PM me. We're all human. We all make mistakes. We don't make huge changes to or within our community based on how well individuals get along with each other. However, warn points will be assessed for behaviors that are hurtful to our community.)

It may be difficult for members to appreciate the continuous (and unpaid) effort that is required to keep this forum family-friendly for years on end. Rick, Ian and Orin have been doing just that for many years with few complaints. To be perfectly clear, I am the owner of this forum and I have the ultimate decision on how things are done. I think the moderators will tell you that I do a very good job at pooling opinions before any major changes are made and that my goals are with the best interest of the community in mind.


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 14, 2008)

Most hobbyists know that almost every mantis available in the hobby does just fine at room temperatures, regardless of species. It is for this simple reason that a particular mantis species is even available in the hobby in the first place. We, as a hobby, are successful with what does well for us with a minimal amount of care (individuals have some personal success with difficult/unusual species, but these species don't get offered mainstream for more than a generation or two). Plain and simple! Available species do well at room temperature eating fruit flies, house flies, crickets and/or roaches. Aside from that, they need some humidity and space + place to molt from.

Katnapper is a new member and she just wants to learn about the care/health of her mantises.

Bottom line (just repeating what has already been said)- You can keep them at room temperature and they will do just fine. It's not necessary to keep them next to a light all night, nor will it likely harm your mantis in any noticeable way. Still, it's intuitively obvious to us that mimicking the natural patterns associated with any organism's native environment is ideal. This means a cycle of light and dark is naturally preferrable, though abnormal fluctuations will not kill your mantis.

While it may not be as ethical to keep non-native species at native temperatures, these are, afterall, pets for our enjoyment. It is clear that they have a better chance at a long life at any temperature comfortable to us, than they would in the wild.

Enjoy your wonderful pets that bring us all together, here!


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## chun (Nov 14, 2008)

personally i think Orin suggested that a constant diurnal photoperiod is not ideal for mantids but it won't necessarily harm some species of mantids as there are no empirical evidence to suggest that a constant diurnal pattern will harm a mantid. None of us here are disagreeing on the fact that a constant diurnal pattern is good for the wellbeing of your mantid, but some species are capable of adapting and deal with such stresses. For example, one member on this forum used to breed mantids if i remember righly, _Pseudempusa_ relatively successfully, whilst many others failed, with the light constantly on 24/7. In conclusion, it's not natural or ideal to deprive a mantid of a cicardian rhythm but it won't kill or harm them if they were subjected to such conditions. And i think that was the point Orin was trying to get across.


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## sidewinder (Nov 14, 2008)

Peter said:


> You can keep them [non-native mantid species] at room temperature and they will do just fine.


Peter,

I guess that depends on your definition of "just fine" and "room temperature". If you view room temperature as about 72° F and just fine means they will survive, then you are right in most cases. But do most people keep their rooms at 72° or more all the time? Not at my house. 60° F at night is not uncommon. Not to mention the total lack of emphasis on proper humidity and photoperiod. There is a reason that you read about so many sudden deaths, miss-molts, and failed matings here. A major reason is that not enough emphasis is placed on providing correct environmental conditions. And posts like this perpetuate the problem.

Can _Hierodula membranacea_ survive at 72° F all the time? Sure. But _H. membranacea_ would do much better if the temperature would get up to about 85° F degrees during the day and down to 72° F at night. Humidity at 50 to 60 percent would be good too. You want to breed _H. membranacea_? Then room temperature is not the way to go at all.

You are not going to go buy a tropical fish that expects 85° F and expect it to thrive at room temperature? Why should mantids be any different?

I know I am wasting my time on this because others more knowledgeable than myself have unsuccessfully attempted to make these points in the past. What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Scott


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## sidewinder (Nov 14, 2008)

chun said:


> In conclusion, it's not natural or ideal to deprive a mantid of a cicardian rhythm but it won't kill or harm them if they were subjected to such conditions.


You have no basis to conclude this. Exogenous rhythms are quite important to maintain for animal health and well being. Just because there have been no specific scientific experiments in this area in regards to mantids does not mean that are somehow magically different than other animals.

Scott


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## Cosmic (Nov 14, 2008)

Great thread,

Scott, could I ask what species of mantid have you personally kept, reared and breed, and also what sort of conditions you have personally kept them at?


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## sidewinder (Nov 14, 2008)

Cosmic,

I have kept, reared, and breed:

_Mantis religiosa religiosa_

Stagmomantis californica

Stagmomantis carolina

Tenodera sinensis

They were kept at around 65° F at night and up to 80° F during the day. The light cycle was typically 14 hours day and 10 hours night. _Mantis religiosa religiosa_ and _S. californica_ were troublesome to keep for more than one or two generations.

I have not kept tropical mantids as of yet. But I know the temperate species are typically harder to keep.

I have experience with tropical reptiles and arachnids. Oh, and tropical fish too (not the easy to keep species either). The most challenging environmental conditions to get right were for breeding fish (cichlids and discus).

Scott


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 15, 2008)

Hi Scott,

To answer your questions that were directed to me and possibly to add a healthy dose of perspective to counteract that self-proclaimed sanity issue you referred to (because I really do want you to be happy here):

My personal working definition of room temperature was described in my last post. I'm not interested in Webster's definition, so don't bother debating me over what is common sense. (Advanced apologies to any Eskimos living in igloos that are surfing the forum at this time for care tips on their _H. membrancea_.) [this is just Me, lightening up.]

Regarding the problems that you read about on this forum, remember that "problems" are the reasons there ARE posts on this forum. People don't write posts about the 200 mantises they raised successfully. They write posts discussing why 1 in 200 went wrong. Make sense? (and Katnapper was trying to prevent that 1 and she seems to have had her question answered to her satisfaction at this point and that IS the point.)

Regarding your usage of the term "much better" in the context of _H. membranacea_, it depends on what your goals with the pet are. I already touched on this in my post too, but there are two perspectives here:

1. pet (what's best for the people that keep them= enjoying our pets)

2. mantis (what is ethically/biologically best for the mantis= mimicking its natural conditions which is perfectly impossible)

In the ten+ years I've been answering people's questions about pet mantises, many of them prefer to keep them cooler because it will extend the life of their pets. Remember, 99% of us are here for the pet aspects of the mantis hobby. I think you often fail to see the big picture in terms of what the average person is interested in learning about here. If you are here for yourself and have deep questions of your own, then I can understand the source of your frustrations. This may not be the forum for you, no matter how hard you try to make it that. If you are an animal rights activist, I can understand the source of your concern for "precise" conditions (though they don't exist in nature or in captivity...in Mantis Heaven, maybe.). But your constant hair-splitting is totally taking away the fun in helping Katnapper and the average, new hobbyist out, here...at least for me.

This stuff is fun and we love our pets! Very few of us are interested in stressing over fractions of degrees or humidity and it is misleading to cause people unnecessary worry. There is science and there is hobby. This forum is mainly hobby-oriented. I do enjoy reading some of the scientific points that you and others bring to the table, but, by and large, most of us are just here to learn how to take care of our pets with the least bit of difficulty. This is the recipe for longterm enjoyment...convenience is the key to success...and, of course, sharing the hobby with others in a spirit of fascination and apprecation for mantises (and the people who keep them) enhances the experience! Taking care of mantises really isn't a science, nor do most of us want it to be. It's pretty simple stuff with a little bit of knowledge, confidence and practice.

You just said you have not raised _H. membranacea_ and my experience seems to be in conflict with what you haven't experienced.

I understand the source of your frustration in the last section of your post to me, but I think the source of your frustration is the result of your goals here vs. the average member's goals here. When you publicly display your frustrations, you should expect a public discussion of them.

Katnapper, if you did still have any questions about any of this, please feel safe to ask. This is YOUR topic!


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## chun (Nov 15, 2008)

salomonis said:


> You have no basis to conclude this. Exogenous rhythms are quite important to maintain for animal health and well being. Just because there have been no specific scientific experiments in this area in regards to mantids does not mean that are somehow magically different than other animals.Scott


i'm not disagreeing with you on the fact that exogenous rhythms are not important in maintaining good animal health and wellbeing, but mantids wont just drop dead if you deprive them of it even though it might incur other physiological effects or reduce reproductive success. Again, i want to make it clear a healthy rhythm is essential.


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 15, 2008)

Peter:

Despite the rumors, neither the position of Secretary of State nor that of Ambassador to the UN has yet been decided for the new cabinet. After reading your post, I sent an Email to some old friends in Chicago, and when they see my name, they'll know what to do. I trust that this will not adversely affect your ability to continue in your roles as leader of the forum or manager of your store.

Yours,

Phil(inYuma)


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## sidewinder (Nov 15, 2008)

Peter,

Like is I said, I don't expect any other response from you or most anyone else here. A search of the forum shows that "easy" is more important here than maintaining an environment equivalent to what the mantids experienced in their native habitats.

My 40 years of experience raising and breeding insects, arachnids, fish, reptiles, and amphibians has taught me that providing an environment similar to what the animals experience in their native habitats is important on several levels. Insects don't exhibit signs of stress nearly as well as fish, reptiles, and amphibians.

Who here would buy tropical fish and not put a heater in their tank? Why should mantids be any different?

Ironically, it really isn't that difficult or expensive to provide a little more warmth for the tropical mantid species. But hey, the mantids can't tell you they are uncomfortable so it's easy to assume all is well as long as they continue to live, right?

I'll stop banging my head against the wall now.....

Scott


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## sidewinder (Nov 15, 2008)

chun said:


> i'm not disagreeing with you on the fact that exogenous rhythms are not important in maintaining good animal health and wellbeing, but mantids wont just drop dead if you deprive them of it even though it might incur other physiological effects or reduce reproductive success. Again, i want to make it clear a healthy rhythm is essential.


chun,

Disrupting the exogenous rhythms can affect the endogenous rhythms as well.

I am not suggesting the mantids will just drop dead. My point is that just because a mantid continues to live does not mean it is not experiencing stress or even severe stress.

Scott


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## chun (Nov 16, 2008)

salomonis said:


> chun,Disrupting the exogenous rhythms can affect the endogenous rhythms as well.
> 
> I am not suggesting the mantids will just drop dead. My point is that just because a mantid continues to live does not mean it is not experiencing stress or even severe stress.
> 
> Scott


like i've said before disrupting the exogeneous rhythm could and will incur physiological effect and reduce reproductive potential so i am not disagreeing with you at all.


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## superfreak (Nov 17, 2008)

We are all just hobbyists, not specialists, Scott. I completely understand your frustration at the lack of understanding here. Ive been in this situation time and time again (on other forums). Often its simply a matter of phrasing your opinion in a more accessible way. In this case youve been wonderful with that (for the record i completely agree with you!). I believe this is more a matter of posing your question to the wrong group of people. Youre right - you are banging your head against a brick wall! Because the members of this forum are (to my knowledge) not entomologists or mantid specialists. The best anyone here can give is a summation of their experience which will often be limited by factors such as finance an convenience.

Im not going to tell you how i think you should raise your mantids. I think its fantastic to have someone truly dedicated in this hobby. Perhaps if you start breeding and selling mantids which are raised in optimal conditions your stock will exceed others' in quality (this opinion comes from my limited experience with purchasing other inverts).

The best advice i can give you at this point is todo some research and find out where there might be someone you can contact with some serious entomological expertise - possibly a professor or researcher.

So stop banging your head against the wall - every time you do it evokes a response and causes you undue stress.

Peace and Love  

- Olga


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## sidewinder (Nov 18, 2008)

Olga,

Thank you for commenting.

Actually, I am not frustrated or stressed at all. I made the mistake providing a definition of insanity and saying that I would not bang my head against the wall anymore. The former reference was pointing out that I was taking the same tack as others before me and it was insane to expect a different result. The later comment was equating that insane action with beating my head against a wall. I did not make these comments to suggest I was frustrated.

In regards to your hobbyists versus specialists comment, I don't think it justifies what I see here. Why? Tropical fish are a great example. I don't know anyone that makes a reasonable attempt at keeping tropical fish that does not include a filter, light, and a heater in their tank setups. It's a standard part of the habitat provided. This is true for 5 gallon tank setups all the way to 200 gallon tank setups. The vast majority of these people aren't specialists. The filter is their to keep the water clean. The light is provided for viewing pleasure and to simulate daylight. The heater is there to keep the water close to what they lived in in nature.

If one considers the tropical fish scenario, why do most here view it as outlandish to suggest that those that keep tropical mantids should provide their mantids with warmth, humidity, and photoperiod somewhat like they would have in nature? And that this idea is somehow reserved for the specialist? Heating pads or tape are not that expensive. Nor are temperature gauges. Nor is a substrate that will hold moisture and a spay bottle.

I know, the insanity of it all.....

Scott


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## superfreak (Nov 18, 2008)

But wont tropical fish die without such care (genuine question, as i dont know!)? also, as far as i can tell, for most people tropical fish are a big investment and those who purchase them take every possible measure to ensure their couple of thousand bucks doesnt simply end up (literally!) down the drain. With mantids this often isnt the case as they are much cheaper and many only need the most basic of housing.


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## sidewinder (Nov 18, 2008)

superfreak said:


> But wont tropical fish die without such care (genuine question, as i dont know!)? also, as far as i can tell, for most people tropical fish are a big investment and those who purchase them take every possible measure to ensure their couple of thousand bucks doesnt simply end up (literally!) down the drain. With mantids this often isnt the case as they are much cheaper and many only need the most basic of housing.


Olga,

More insanity.......

I am not comparing the cost of keeping tropical fish to the cost of keeping mantids. But, tropical fish don't need elaborate housing. You can get a basic 12 gallon setup, with everything you need, for less than $100 US.

There are many hardy tropical fish that will survive room temperature or colder water. But they will show distress. The colors will be drab and they will be lethargic compared to what they normally would be. They won't be their normal active selves. They will be more susceptible to disease and unexplained death. They won't eat as well. They won't breed. In other words, they won't thrive.

The stress tropical mantids are exposed to if kept too cool and with not enough humidity will have the same deleterious effects. The effects are just harder to see. And they won't thrive.

But, yes, keeping tropical mantids should be less expensive than keeping tropical fish. Even if you do provide some basic heating for the mantids.

How much does a heat mat cost? A 16 watt heat mat that measures 10.5” x 11” costs $17.95 US. If that breaks the bank, well, you can't afford to keep tropical mantids in the first place.

Hey, if your house is about 75° F all time and the light you use during the day provides more heat, your "room temperature" is perfectly fine. Just make sure you keep the humidity level up around 50 to 70 %. But, some houses are kept a lot cooler than that. During the winter, my house is never over 70° F during the day. At night, it can get as low as 58° F. Humidity can get as low as 10 percent. So I know I need to provide some heat and humidity for any tropical animal species I keep.

I just don't get the push back on the concept of providing heat if the environment is colder. I didn't realize that suggesting one buy a $17.95 heat mat made me an elitist scientist!

Scott


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 18, 2008)

There is no argument that providing warmth to bugs allows them to grow more quickly. There is no argument that this, in combination with plenty of food will cause them to thrive.

However, my advice to new hobbyists goes like this.

1. If you keep your mantis warmer it will need to feed more often (and is therefore more likely to starve if a person doesn't make it to the pet store to buy crickets after two weeks). This mantis will grow more quickly and die sooner. This is the natural condition for this mantis that originates from a tropical place.

2. If you keep your mantis cooler it will need to feed less often. This mantis will grow much more slowly and its life will be greatly extended. This is not the natural condition for your pet and therefore the word "thrive" is not appropriate. However, you will enjoy the life of your pet for a longer period of time.

Many people passing through this forum are just here because they brought a mantis in from the cold a few weeks ago. Others are here to raise a single mantis as a pet, perhaps for their children. These are the "lurkers". You may never see a single post from them, but they come in here looking for just enough information to provide a basic level of care for their pet. For these people, I think it is best to recommend they do not use a heat source (situation #2, above). Heat sources are actually a common cause of mismolts because inexperienced keepers are not able to provide proper/consistent humidity to offset it (with mismolts being the #1 cause/concern for captive mantis health). Say a person is doing really well for a couple months, but missed 3 days of misting the cage and then their mantis suddenly mismolts. In this case, we have done them and their mantis a disservice because we recommended they apply heat which is unnecessary and dangerous if not researched and applied in responsible manner (and let's face it...most people don't ask the questions that you do, nor does the majority of the population really value arthropod life). Even as an experienced keeper of mantises, I still make mistakes with my heat or humidity sometimes. For this reason, I do advocate simplicity in caring for our pets if you are new (Katnapper was and I'm still tying this all back to her situation since she started this thread). Responsibly heated environments will allow them to thrive, but a dead mantis is no good to itself or its keeper and this is often the unfortunate result for many new keepers that try to do too much too soon. They don't have the fundamentals down like providing suitable molting surfaces, humidity and removing large feeder insects that are uneaten for days on end. Hobbyists that stick around for awhile learn through experience with their pets and through sharing knowledge with other keepers.

For you Scott, I advocate keeping your mantises warm and well fed on a day/night cycle that approximates their natural conditions. You are definitely the personality type to excel and I fully agree that providing conditions that allow mantises to thrive in a natural way is THE ideal! However and again, perfection does not exist, nor do many enjoy the same challenges that the hobby has to offer as you do. If I were a mantis, I would want to be your pet. :wub:


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## sidewinder (Nov 18, 2008)

Peter,

I'll get on my soapbox one more time....

Most people here do not live in the tropics. So the species they find locally and bring into their home is not likely to be tropical so what I am saying is not at issue here. They don't need to worry about heat or humidity but misting is needed so the mantid can drink.

A thermometer, a spray bottle, and a coconut fiber, moss, or even a paper towel substrate, along with a little bit of diligence would pretty much solve all of the issues your bring up about using a heat source when keeping tropical mantids. This is not complicated and not extremely expensive. You don't need thermostats or humidity gauges. But you need some level of discipline since you must mist on a regular basis.

Who said that keeping tropical mantids should be a zero effort endeavor compared to keeping a local temperate species? Since no one has any idea how hot or cold "room temperature" is in any given household, I think recommending simplicity (don't worry about temperature) to the "hobbyist" is doing a disservice to them, the mantids, and the hobby itself. It makes these hobbyists think that tropical mantids will be just fine in much colder environments than they expect. I think that anyone keeping tropical animal species need to be made aware of their special basic needs and they need to make an effort to meet those basic needs. After all, a hobbyist is supposed to learn more about their "hobby" than the average joe and they apply what they learn to become better hobbyists.

Your advice actually discourages people from keeping their tropical mantids in appropriate conditions.

If someone does not want to put in the minimal extra expense and effort required to keep tropical mantids, keeping local mantid species during their normal season is the way to go and what should be recommended.

I am still amazed at the level of push back I, and others before me, get here on this topic. To most "hobbyists" I know, what I am saying is so standard that it is not often discussed. Providing an environment similar to what the animal experiences in nature is a basic tenet of any animal keeping hobby.

Scott


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 18, 2008)

superfreak said:


> But wont tropical fish die without such care (genuine question, as i dont know!)?
> 
> There you have it, Superfreak! This thread has talked a lot about stress without much discussion of its effects. The huge tropical fish industry depends on the death of a solid proportion of its product to keep going (how much? Way back at the end of the C20, Australia was marketing 13 million tropical fish and Koi per year, domestically!). And much of the "aquarium equipment", that they sell, like activated charcoal packets that fail in 2-3 days, is junk. In one year, the biggest seller in the U.S. trade was a plastic "space dog" that, when connected to an air pump would rise to the surface, blowing bubbles, and then sink again. Were I a fish, that would stress the heck out of me! Space invaders!!
> 
> ...


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## sidewinder (Nov 18, 2008)

PhilinYuma,

Here, again, is a quote from the _Rearing and Breeding Mantids_ chapter of _The Praying Mantids_:

"[Causes of mortality]...anything that disrupts the normal hormonal patterns of nymphal development can also cause problems. This underscores the need for stable and appropriate lighting, temperature, humidity, and food supply."

Scott


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 18, 2008)

salomonis said:


> PhilinYuma,
> 
> Here, again, is a quote from the _Rearing and Breeding Mantids_ chapter of _The Praying Mantids_:
> 
> ...


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## sidewinder (Nov 18, 2008)

What the heck do aspirin and drinking coffee have to do with what we are discussing in this thread? There is no correlation.

Scott


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 18, 2008)

salomonis said:


> What the heck do aspirin and drinking coffee have to do with what we are discussing in this thread? There is no correlation.
> 
> Scott:
> 
> ...


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 18, 2008)

Beating the dead horse one last time (think I read that somewhere else, recently)...

I have raised lots of temperate and tropical species. I notice no difference in their care requirements, and thus no reason to over-complicate my efforts in their care. I maintain that it is inadvisable to provide heat unless your goal is either:

1. To raise them as quickly as possible for breeding purposes (i.e. you are a dealer)

2. You have an ethical inclination to provide them with conditions that most closely approximate the natural habitat.

I wonder if Dr. David Yager LIVES with mantises. Setting up experiments with particular controls is a form of bias. To put it bluntly (again), my "research" shows that all the species that are available to the general hobby do well, even thrive, within environmental conditons that most people consider comfortable.

Quoting the mantis bible is a way of life for many people, but it is not the only pathway to truth. Experience, they say, is the best teacher.

To be clear, I find it very easy to raise "available" tropical mantises in my home without heat sources. (I still use them occasionally, but I keep my home at 69 degrees at night and 70 during the day). There's some data we can all chew on!

I'm reminded of the Bruce Lee movie where somebody is pointing at the moon and the disciple is looking at the finger (and thereby missing "all the heavenly glory").

I have to be done with this or I'm going to start having fun with it...that creative tickle...


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## Katnapper (Nov 18, 2008)

Hmmm.... what an interesting thread this turned out to be. I never expected such an in-depth debate to erupt; But it has given me food for thought on several points, and has satisfied what I needed to know. I finally bought a thermometer/humidity gage 2 days ago, which has also helped me get a much better idea of what conditions I currently have them in. My "lows" were 59f and 60f, and my "highs" have been 71f and 74f. That was with the heat lamp on during the daylight hours, and off at night. And my humidity levels were 33% to 40%. I'm not going for scientific perfection, but I've decided it's important to me to make temp and humidity levels a little closer to optimum.

I want to thank you all for your input... it has *all* helped me in coming to my own conclusions of what I need to do. And it has helped me finally make a decision I'd been struggling with for some time... about where I want to permanently house my mantids. It felt so good when I came to the conclusion of the perfect space for them last night. I discussed it with my husband today, and he is going to help me turn the spare bedroom into my mantid room. Good thing he agreed, because I already went out this morning and bought an electric room heater (the Vornado Vh2 Whole Room Vortex Heater)  . And thank goodness we didn't sell our humidifier (we were planning to, as our new home has a whole-house humidifier built in). I'm going to put it in the mantid room, along with the thermostatic heater, and hopefully create mantis heaven.  

I guess I'm a little more fervent about my new hobby than some other newbies might be; But I'm really into it, have the available space, and I believe I at least have a well rounded perspective on the subject now. The room heater was a bit more than I expected to spend on temp. control, but I think it will be worth it. Looking at the pricing on heat mats in Pet-Co today decided me on the room heater. In the end, for as many containers and mantids as I want and expect to be keeping, I think it is definitely the cheaper and easier option. It shouldn't really run that much either, just enough to boost the temp of that room a bit. And I can set the thermostat to a specific temp... I like that!

So.... my next question...... Has anyone, or is anyone using a room heater like this in combination with a humidifier (box type, like a piece of furniture) for their mantids? Any tips or caveats you might suggest? I'll still be misting regularly, btw. Thanks again for helping me out with my questions... I do really appreciate the input.  

PS... I love Bruce Lee and that clip is classic!  LOL


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 19, 2008)

I edited out the video clip link that I had posted earlier. It occurred to me (later) that it might not be perceived in the same way it was conceived. I had posted it some time after my written reference to it and was just excited to have found it.


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## superfreak (Nov 19, 2008)

Katnapper - id almost forgotten this was your thread! Im glad its helped you come to your decision. Unfortunately my babies are all still housed in various aquariums scattered around my room for now. Hopefully i can pull it all together this summer and possibly even build a nice display case!

Scott - I think everyone here has been far more gracious than you deserve. Everyones just putting forward their opinions, not taking a personal stab at you. Furthermore, most everyone here has kindly thanked you for your opinion, told you that they think its a FANTASTIC direction in which to take the hobby and yet you seem so stuck in the rut youve dug out for yourself that you completely refuse to see that NOONES SAYING YOURE WRONG.

Until now. My apologies, but i think i was more than supportive. Your repetitive argument with yourself is just a waste of space. We get the picture. Go buy a heat mat! Noones stopping you. But dont tell everyone else that its the only way, as many here have already pointed out (much more eloquently than myself) that its clearly not.

Anyway, im off to go play with my mantids and likely stop them from thriving by stressing them out too much! But considering i keep them partly for the fun of watching insects being eaten alive - i dont care!


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## sidewinder (Nov 19, 2008)

superfreak,

Hmm......I don't see where I have taken anything in this discussion personally. Don't confuse being an advocate of a position with emotional investment in that position.

The only reason I have continued the dialog is that others have participated in the discussion and offered up ideas and points of view different than my own. The fact that they disagree with me (how did you miss that?  ) means I have not been persuasive enough in my arguments and the fact I disagree with them means they have not persuaded me with their arguments. Discussion and disagreement are healthy, to a point. But, as has been noted by myself and Peter, this discussion has past that point. I only responded because posts were directed at me and my position. Almost everyone in an argument wants to have the last word. Peter bailed on it in his last post and I was going to stop too until your maligning post.

My argument is only repetitive because my position has not changed. Peter's argument has been repetitive as well. He has not changed his position. I never said there was only one way. My argument was that conditions dictate what one should do. We disagreed on what those conditions are and are not.

As an academic, you had better get used to "argumentum ad nauseam" or "argumentum ad infinitum".

Scott


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## Katnapper (Nov 19, 2008)

I like your truthful insight, superfreak... and your bluntness made me smile.  I hope we both can get our mantid spaces situated how we like them. Maybe I'll post some before and after pics when the move from the bathroom is complete, lol.


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## Katnapper (Nov 19, 2008)

Salomonis, the different opinions of *everyone *did very much help me to come to my own conclusions. Differing opinions are a good thing if they each have merit and can provoke more comprehensive and enlightened thought... which they did.  It did get to a point of repetitive nitpicking though...


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## sidewinder (Nov 19, 2008)

Katnapper,

I am glad you found the discussion useful.

Your mantid setup sounds like it is going to be great. I don't think my wife is going to be as understanding as your husband. The temperatures in your house sounds very much like what I see in mine. I won't have a full room to use so I have to be more creative. If only.....

My long term plan is to build a 42" wide by 67" tall by 18" deep enclosure with multiple shelves that will hold a variety of mantid "homes". The space will be heated and the heating elements will be controlled by a proportional thermostat (probably using my Herpstat Pro). I haven't decided how I am going to control humidity. Since I will be spraying each mantid "home" daily anyway, I will probably use a couple of humidity gauges in the enclosure to guide me.

Have fun!

Scott


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## superfreak (Nov 19, 2008)

Sorry Scott!

Lets just say i forgot to take my medication today  

Good luck to all with your mantid endeavors. May the mantis god bring you plentiful bounty


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## Orin (Nov 19, 2008)

Katnapper,

Keep in mind you are taking the 'experience' of someone who admits to having no track record. A big problem with keeping the temperature too high is problems with humidity and ventilation that otherwise wouldn't have to be dealt with. You may be able to overcome these difficulties created or your mantids may die. These are not problems associated with tropical fish because they live in water.


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 19, 2008)

Katnapper,

As you amass hundreds of mantids, remember that each container may have its own micro-climate in terms of humidity, etc. Also, the area near your ceiling may be significantly warmer than the area near your floor. I put certain mantises on top shelves and others on bottom shelves (males that need to sloooow down to mature at the same time as females, for example.).

Consider Scott's suggestion for spraying each container daily if you are going to be raising your mantises at higher than typical household temperatures.

Again, unless your containers have a lot of ventilation, the ambient/room humidity may be a non-factor to what's happening inside the containers. I do recommend that you standardize your selection of containers so that all variables will be equal. I use vials for young nymphs and 32 ounce containers for older nymphs. I move sub-adult mantises to molting cages temporarily, until they have successfully molted.

As you are making attempts to control the climate in the room, be sure to pay attention to what's going on in the containers. Too much humidity has consequences including the need to clean the containers more often. Bits of frass and fallen feeder insect parts mold much more quickly in high humidity and temperature. Also, molting surfaces that are too wet have the potential to cause problems.

I know some very successful hobbyist that provide a lot of water to their feeder insects and actually never mist their cages or provide drinking water for their mantises and they claim not to have a regular problem with mismolts. I believe them, but I still mist all my containers on every other feeding or so. Older and more unusually shaped mantises tend to have more difficulty molting, so pay particular attention to them.

I agree that this has been a productive discussion.


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## sidewinder (Nov 19, 2008)

Orin said:


> Katnapper,Keep in mind you are taking the 'experience' of someone who admits to having no track record. A big problem with keeping the temperature too high is problems with humidity and ventilation that otherwise wouldn't have to be dealt with. You may be able to overcome these difficulties created or your mantids may die. These are not problems associated with tropical fish because they live in water.


Orin,

While I lack experience in keeping tropical mantids, I do have experience with temperate mantids. I have 40 years of experience raising and breeding insects, arachnids, fish, reptiles, and amphibians. Heck, cats and dogs too. Many of the arachnids, fish, reptiles, and amphibians have been tropical. Breeding some of the fish I have had over the years makes tropical mantid care look completely uncomplicated.

Scott


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## sidewinder (Nov 19, 2008)

Peter,

Based on what Katnapper is doing with her room, do you think net cages along with a fan to keep the air moving would be the way to go?

Scott


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 19, 2008)

May the mantis god bring you plentiful bounty  

SuperFreak:

As one Latin spouting, elitist academic to another, was your reference to the "mantis god" simply a typographical error or does it betray a deeper, more fundamental misunderstanding of the Mantis _Goddess_?

Frankly, I would expect that even a schoolboy in the Lower Fifth would be familiar with Hesiod's "Mantisa mia tensia est" in which he states quite clearly, (p.ccxlviii), "Furthermore, though temperatures and photoperiods may wax or wane, She is now, and forever shall be the the One Supreme Goddess, so take that then thou SuperFreak." [My translation].

It is true that Jacobus Staminatus, a contemporary of Vergilius Maro, [personal correspondence] claims that "Even now, the villagers outside of Rome gather to celebrate the summer solstice with a bawdy ritual in which they act out the Mantis Goddess's devouring of her mate's head in the ceremony known as 'Donare Capitum'," but in the absence of any extant scholarly support for the existence of such a ritual, I cannot give this story credence.

I trust that this will be both instructive and edifying and that you will accept it in the spirit in which it is offered. If not, I shall be happy to repeat it again tomorrow.

And in the words of the Immortal Bard, TTFN!


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 19, 2008)

Hi Scott,

As before, I wouldn't recommend a fan unless you've raised a few mantises and are familiar with the fundamentals, especially in combination with heat unless you can effectively maintain consistent humidity in the "room". It just sounds like adding the (unnecessary) elements of wind and fire into the already challenging process of molting. Of course, applied correctly you could soon be charging admission to Mantis Heaven...and, drumroll please...mantises would be dying just to get there! (as opposed to getting there just to die)

At the same time, there are situations where heat is a good thing and I've tried to be careful not to say that anything I've suggested is an absolute-all-the-time rule. If I see that a mantis is molting I will assess the situation. I might, very carefully, spray into the container (away from the mantis) and place the mantis in the warm cupboard above my bearded dragon's cage. This creates additional humidity in the cage. I would not do this if the mantis had chosen a precarious surface to molt from. If the molt has come as a surprise (to me) and the cage looks dry and the goddess whispers in my ear, I will often help. I've been to those festivals, by the way. Few know about them because few males live to tell. Women never tell and not every male is consumed. If you survive, believe me, it's worth the risk, if only once in your life!  

In nature (and in Scott's cages [sorry, Scott...easy target]), mantises have more control over when and where they molt. They choose from an endless variety of potential molting surfaces for a good one and may have some sense for timing their molt to day/night/humidity (I didn't read that in a book, so I have no reference to quote.)

Still, I advocate experience and simplicity in the beginning. I find mantis care very simple because I've made every mistake there is to make (numerous times). I don't use net cages for any but adult mantises because of the humidity challenges.


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## Orin (Nov 19, 2008)

salomonis said:


> While I lack experience in keeping tropical mantids....Scott


You should be careful about giving advice without warning the person about your lack of experience at the same time. I don't share your lack of experience.


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## Cosmic (Nov 19, 2008)

Orin said:


> You should be careful about giving advice without warning the person about your lack of experience at the same time. I don't share your lack of experience.


I think you hit the nail on the head!!

Get some experience with "tropical" mantids (not Tropical fish, reptiles, amphibians, etc) first Scott, before preaching about how they should or shouldn't be kept.


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## sidewinder (Nov 19, 2008)

Orin said:


> You should be careful about giving advice without warning the person about your lack of experience at the same time. I don't share your lack of experience.


Orin,

Based on what most people apparently do here, I don't lack experience in keeping tropical mantids because they keep tropical mantids just like I kept temperate mantids. Been there, there done that.....

 

Scott


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 20, 2008)

LOL...that's a very good comeback, Scott! You were clearly paying attention in class today.

A+


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## sidewinder (Nov 20, 2008)

Peter,

When I mentioned a fan for Katnapper's setup, I was talking about a very low speed fan just to keep the air moving around (~1 MPH) the room so humidity and temperature stay somewhat even. If she was able to get the humidity throughout the room consistent at 50 to 60 percent, would net cages make some sense? The idea being that she would not have to worry about the micro-climate of each enclosure, right? Mist for drinking water and that would be about it.

That's how I did a room with many _Chamaeleo jacksonii_ in large net enclosures and and it worked quite well.

Scott


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 20, 2008)

I'd personally be concerned about the room molding, unless it were a tile/vinyl bathroom, but that's besides your point, I guess. Even most bathrooms will start to mold if you don't suck the humidity out in between your showers.

I can see the eventual destination in your line of questioning and yes, Scott, almost perfect conditions are almost perfect! It just sounds like a lot of work to me, but yes...we are getting right down to the fine details, aren't we?

Friends in Malaysia use net or screened cages for all sorts of critters (outdoors) and these work great.

It may be easier to move to a tropical location  Oh but "easy" isn't the goal here  X2


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## Katnapper (Nov 20, 2008)

Good question, Scott. The room does have a ceiling fan, and I had been debating about the pros and cons of using it. On the lowest speed (pretty slow, can't really feel any noticeable "wind" effect when standing under it), if I keep the humidity up, it might help keep the air temps more consistent, no?

Scott, it's too bad you don't have a whole room to utilize and play with for your mantids. No doubt you'd have fun maxing it out. I hope you're eventually able to come up with a setup that pleases you.  Have you looked in the furniture sections of stores at the storage cabinet options they have now? Maybe you can find something that works for you and would be pleasing to your wife as well.

It's not that my husband is *that* understanding. He's probably on a similar level with your wife, as far as tolerence to the "bugs." I think it's just come down to the better choice of two evils for him. My setup in the bathroom has been steadily growing until it's almost ridiculously crowded in there now.  Warning and apologizing to any visitors who need to use the bathroom is really wearing on him. Not to mention he says it creeps him out to have "all these bugs and worms and things looking at me when I'm trying to take a pi**!" So even though he has significant reservations about sacrificing the guest room, his resistance has worn down. And I think having them in a room he hardly goes in with the door shut is looking pretty good to him right now!  

PS... In it's former life, the room was a boy's bedroom. The ceiling fan is one of those baseball themed ones, to match the sports balls themed border in the room. :huh: I'm thinking the males will all love it, but the little girlies... maybe not so much, lol.


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## sidewinder (Nov 20, 2008)

Peter,

I wasn't talking about perfect conditions. Is there such a thing? I was just running with the environment that Katnapper said she was setting up. I figured net or screen cages would simplify the situation for her because there would be no micro climates to worry about.

According to the CDC, humidity is not going to cause mold problems as long as you keep the room humidity in the 40 to 60% range. A hot shower that leaves condensation on the surfaces of the bathroom is at 100% humidity.

Anyway,


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## Katnapper (Nov 20, 2008)

Thank you, Peter, for all of the tips and heads up about the temp. and humidity levels. I never really thought about being concerned about mold! :huh: With so many factors to think about one affecting the other, keeping things simple and not over-controlling seems prudent. I guess I'll just have to do as I think best with the set-up initially, then see how it goes... and adjust as necessary.

I do have a bunch of standardized containers in 3 sizes, that I plan on housing individuals in. And I have some Critter Keepers of varying sizes that I'm planning on using as nursuries when my ooths hatch (I've customized them with organza fabric covering the ventilation slots to keep in melanogasters). So I ought to be able to get an idea of the microclimates of the majority by monitoring just a few. I'm glad you gave me the heads up that the microclimates of the containers might vary significantly from the general room conditions. Lots of helpful information that I really appreciate!  

Scott, I have considered the net cages too. Almost bought some online, but then figured I'd just go with what I already have for now and see how it goes. I have *oodles* of these clear plastic, screw-on top storage containers in 3 graduating sizes (they came nesting, 3 to a set... $1.00 for each set at the Dollar Store! I thought they were perfect for my needs - after customizing with screen/organza covered hole in lid - so I bought all they had, and then bought more in another town's Dollar Store too, just to make sure I'd have all I might possibly ever want in the future!)


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 20, 2008)

salomonis said:


> According to the CDC, humidity is not going to cause mold problems as long as you keep the room humidity in the 40 to 60% range. A hot shower that leaves condensation on the surfaces of the bathroom is at 100% humidity.


Hi Scott,

So, normal household humidity ranges are 40-60% and anything above that provides breeding grounds for mold.

What then, are the typical humidity measurements in tropical areas of our planet?

And what does Dr. Yager recommend for tropical species, humidity-wise?


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## mythal (Nov 20, 2008)

I prefer using real plants (orchids, bromeliads and maybe soon nepenthes) in my terrariums, so some plant lighting is required. The lamps vary from 15w to 23w, so the heat they give is not too great. Also, the terrariums are large enough for the temperature to vary from 22 to 28 degrees celcius.

Don't know if that's ideal, but at least the little buggers can choose whatever temperature they like best. I'm still quite new at this (I have 2 phyllocrania paradoxa &amp; 1 creobroter gemmatus), since only started this hobby earlier this year, but just wanted to express my thoughts.


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## Katnapper (Nov 20, 2008)

Hi mythal.  Your terrariums sound nice! Real plants would be great, but too much hassle for me. And I tend to kill houseplants if my cats don't do the job first.


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## mythal (Nov 20, 2008)

Hello there.  

I'm actually also a plant enthusiast, so live plants just seem narutal. They do not agree with all people, though.  It's quite fun though, growing some tropical plants along with mantids.

Later this month, I'll most likely start building a larger terrarium; about 60cm x 30cm x 100cm (2' x 1' x 3'4"). Light and heating would be provided by two 18w fluorescent tubes. Top will most likely be the favourite place, but there should be enough foliage at different heights, for mantids to choose a place of their liking. Still thinking about what sort of feeder insects I should use, but houseflies and waxmoths jump to mind as main course.

Hopefully I will be able to succesfully breed my Phyllocrania paradoxa to fill the space up. Buying them is another option, should I not be able to pull it of with my own critters. In the end, I might even end up with another species.

- Tuomo

Oh, and I'm from Finland, if you're wondering about my writing.


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 20, 2008)

mythal said:


> Hello there.  Oh, and I'm from Finland, if you're wondering about my writing.


Welcome! Yes, I noticed that it was a bit above average for England or the U.S.! :lol: 

I have a friend who is thinking of something similar. Maybe you can compare notes.


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 20, 2008)

Peter said:


> Hi Scott,So, normal household humidity ranges are 40-60% and anything above that provides breeding grounds for mold.
> 
> What then, are the typical humidity measurements in tropical areas of our planet?


While waiting for Scott's reply, here's my 2c worth.

There is no "normal household humidity". Today, mine rose to a dizzying 15% before beginning to drop again. My mantises need spraying at least once a day, and my crickets, twice as often. I will never be able to leave the house again for more than a day. ever!

There is no "typical tropical humidity/temperature," either. In Nairobi, it's warm and humid during the day (though it could drop from sweaty in the morning to decent in the afternoon) and much cooler at night. As you go up the foothills of Mt Kenya, past the pyracanthus farms (the plant grows well with irrigation here in Yuma) it gets cooler and I guess (the army didn't give us hygrometers) drier.

Kuala Lumpur is always nasty, about 80%, I would guess, day and night, but if you go a few miles inland the temperature and humidity drops with the increase in elevation. Still plenty of insects (biting insects!) though.

It snows in Tokyo in the winter, and in Oahu, the humidity goes up to 100% around 11a.m. (at least whenever I was there) when it rains. Famously, it can be raining on one side of the street, though, and dry on the other.

So there you have it, Peter. I bet that you would never have guessed that, would you? B)


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## mythal (Nov 24, 2008)

PhilinYuma said:


> I have a friend who is thinking of something similar. Maybe you can compare notes.


Aye. It would be interesting to talk about possible problems and such.

I'll probably build the terrarium this week, but as my male P. paradoxa molted just yesterday into subadult, it will take quite a while for me to populate the enclosure. Well, at least I'll have time to observe how well the plants will fare, before introducing the mantids. Maybe I'll put my C. gemmatus there for her remaining life, so the space won't go to waste.  

I'll be using a timer for the lighting, so should be easy enough to create a natural light cycle.


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## kmsgameboy (Nov 25, 2008)

Katnapper said:


> I'm wondering if leaving my heat lamp on during the night will adversely affect my mantids, since they don't get the darkness of the regular day/night cycle? I'm keeping them in a bathroom for now until I figure out a better place. I keep the door shut to keep the cats out and the humidity in (I keep the sink filled with water in addition to their regular mistings). I keep the house thermostat set on 72f. But with the weather turning colder, it just seems a little cooler than the rest of the house in there without the heat lamp on sometimes, even though there is a small forced air register. The mantids are not right under the lamp, but it's always bright in there when I have it on. Do I need to turn it off to give them "night" sometimes?


I cant realy tell you for sure since I am new to mantid keeping HOWEVER I can tell you that they do sell heat lamp bulbs made JUST for night time use! (The light is a nice purple-ish blue...very cool looking) You can pick one up at your local Walmart for about $4-6!


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## nasty bugger (Dec 29, 2008)

I don't alter my comfort zone for the mantis', I figure the one's I want will adapt, or not survive. If I want a species that needs special care, then I'd have to provide that, or I could just let natural selection take it's course and get a mantis that may or may not look like the one I thought I wanted, after it adapted to this climate.

There are microclimates everywhere, especially in a garden. Under the canopy, over the canopy, between leaves, down where the moisture settles, up in the crotches of the plants where moisture may stay, or depending on what type of plant and the texture of the 'bark' or exterior as to how the moisture and such other variable factors are maintained.

I got into mantis' for biological garden control, so I mention that alot.

It would be nice to have a control species, as the 'perfect' mantis would go, and compare how native factors affect that particular species, if that were to interest someone.

I would be interested, if I had that kind of time and attention to detail, yeah right, like I have any sanity left after living in phoenix after the influx of, shall we say, idiots, that have moved here from less civil areas Not the nice little town it used to be, and speaking of places being altered by 'foreign species' moving in... I'm sure the native mantis' feel a difference when an 'outside' species is introduced into their room/habitat. When a butterfly flaps it's wings...

Photoperiod thingies...  What about alaska? Do they have mantis' in alaska, you know, that state with the period of time, I suppose season, where the sun really never sets for any amount of time, do you think the mantis' don't adapt, or just stay stressed?

I think that everything adapts. That if a mantis is used to perching, or laying in wait, if you will, at a specific plant that may flower only at a certain time, and/or under certain conditions, be it humidity or light or rain or whatever may be triggering its reproductive cycle into 'gettin it done' for purposes of pollenation etc to further the lineage, and during this flowering it attracts a specific type of 'food', that the mantis has come to rely on, if the mantis were to be taken from this everyday situation he would certainly suffer and stress, but I think he would adapt, and then calm back down, just like any other living creature would. He would then set up a new schedule, and get back into the swing of things, kinda what a hippy would call the circadium rhythm, or however it's spelled.

Now if you're looking for a control so as to note stimulus and response for science, well then that's all together different than just having a mantis crawl up your finger and walk around on you  

I like both science and just plain ol' pets, though I have so little time, you'd not know it from my many posts recently though, to observe these little details for scientific study though, especially since I haven't figured out what triggers the mantis to move or act the way he does, other than hunger, yet, and it doesn't stress me  

Even in the land of the night time sun they have microclimates that are darker than others, that I would assume some creatures seek out for refuge. I just try to offer the mantis, since I control it's living area, a variety, and exclude disease.

Right now I'm just trying to keep my mantis' alive, and happy, if they get happy  

I keep them about 3-4 feet off the floor, and my humidity level is probably way different than most peoples on here, since I live in a dry climate, yet I keep a garden in my living room, that I water on a one to two day schedule, so I have a bit more humidity than others in phoenix do, given the same ventilation in their house, and the same floor plan, and the same..........

I heat my house almost exclusively with the grow lights in my garden.

If the mantis' need more heat I'll put them up on the top of my cupboards, which can get up close to 90 degrees in the daytime on some days in the winter, or I can put them in my bedroom to cool down, which I won't, which can get down to 55 degrees at night, depending on if I open the door, and how much, and if I blow air in from the living room.

My worm room varies between 60 degrees to 75 depending on the outside temp. At 44 degrees outside at night my worm room is just over 60degrees, with no heater in it, and the door closed. They like it that temp, or at least they haven't complained anyway.

I just keep the mantis' in the kitchen/dining room area, which is only seperated from the living room by a 4 foot tall by 5 foot long wall and a post. The get the heat from the garden lamps, a 600 watt and a 400 watt lamp that is vented into the dining area with a small squirrel cage fan, that I run independently, the 600w on a 4:30 pm to 10:30 am timer, and the 400 watter when it starts getting lower than 75 degrees in the living area.

Now if I want to get fussy about temp and humidiy, I have an evironmental climate controller, that I bought for about $100 on sale at a hydroponics shop.

The EVC has outlets that will turn on fans to vent when it's too hot, or the humidity is too high, or whatever. I can plug the $2 yard sale water bed heater into this unit and it will turn on when a set temp rises or lowers (I like to yard sale on saturdays, kinda my social life outside of work, and I get stuff I otherwise wouldn't splurge on). I can also plug the humidifier into it to trigger at a set level, It will also turn on a CO2 tank, in case I want to mimic those primordial days and want to raise dinosaurs..., it's for my plants, if I choose.

No need for it in the winter, but when it gets screaming hot here in the summer it can make a life or death difference in the garden's optimal output, especially if you don't use air conditioning. I'm sure I can get climatised seed, but I'll just keep the comfort level to what I find comfortable.

Some home's here use what some folks don't know of, cause they don't work well in humid areas, but we call em swamp coolers.

Just a big squirrel cage van that pulls outside air through moistened pads to cool the air and vents it inside the house to cool it. I prefer air conditioning  Though this cheap place I'm at now has now has no a/c, just a swamp cooler, outside of the push around A/C unit that I put in the room I sleep in.

In other words, _not every house has the same conditions, nor every town have the save climate, let alone a jungle or where ever a mantis may originate from, but all creatures seem to adapt, as long as climates and variables aren't extreme._

I know if I want to set my mantis' free in my garden, where the temps are a bit higher than where I keep them now, that I'll have to use that $2 yard sale humidifier I got and keep it humider  for their survival, cause daddy can't, or won't, hunt them down an personally mist each and every one.

I won't keep the garden wet cause that will cause problems with the plants, so the mantis' will have to find a place, a microclime, where the humidity is good, close to the humidifier, or in a shady place etc, and adapt to that. Chances are that his prey will seek out the same situation, or he'll just have to become a travelling salesman, till he eats. He'll adapt.

I know that alot of different animal species instinctively know when and where to travel for seasonal food and water, and believe that mantis' aren't much different. I really don't know how intelligent they are, but instinct will guide them.

After they find the 'pattern' and triggers etc, then I'm sure the stress will be reduced, though I'm sure that animals have stress all the time, or they just don't care and have no idea what stress is. Everything just responds to some stumulus, so they'll adapt.

Only thing is, _if the housing doesn't allow for different micro climes, not shade or leaves or a moister area of substrate, like under the plant or sand or something that retains moisture, then they don't have much to offer in the way of a different micro clime in the micro clime._ I try to offer them more than Just This.

I have leafy sticks, some say don't use the sticks as they may hinder molting when the mantis hangs from the top of the enclosure, so I move the stick and leaves to allow a headspace area, and to keep the enclosure set up for that also.

I have a substrate of coir, and some of sand, that has something on it, one has bark that goes almost to the top of the jar, for them to climb and for the prey to feel more comfortable on, till it's chow time, and some have just leafy twigs. This offers shade, and a hangout place. Maybe a moister place when it gets drier.

Rick mentioned that I would probably want to put a hole in the side of my enclosure to mist and or feed through, since the mantis' like to hang out from the top, and that sounded like really good advise, so I now need to adapt my jars, or get different housing units.

I'm learning, but I believe that not only will I adapt to my new found knowledge, the mantis' will also adapt and do what they do, kill their prey and hang out, and climb up my arm. I wonder if they are just 'casing' me out and developing a plan to eat my head though...  

I think it'd be cool to put a small screened in ff culture in a terrarium so the ff's could fly out when they want to offer the mantis a meal, and still have a safe place they'd be attracted to to do the nasty in, and keep the species going. A sort of self sustaining set up. I think it would also be cool if I could run a tube from the ff area into my aquarium so the flies could go offer themselves to the fish as well. Guess Who's Coming to Dinner...  I guess they'd have to be black flies for that particular scenario though...  

In short, _I try to offer micro climates in my enclosure, and I believe they'll adapt_. I just don't want disease to get a foothold, but as for light cycles, they differ in different places. The land of the midnight sun would also have mantis', though I doubt they're anymore stressed than any other mantis, cause they'll adapt to those conditions and learn to find prey and where to sleep etc.

I like forums, cause they give me new idea's to incorporate. Not trying to jerk anyone's chain, even though I do it so well sometimes  

I've had to restrain my swat response since keeping these buggers


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