# Need your opinion please



## yen_saw

If you are given a chance to chose only half of the species list below (in none particular order), which would you like to drop? it is taking too much of my personnal time, and i am afraid that i may not be able to give the best to all the species.

1. Florida bark mantis - Gonatista grisea

2. Nigerian flower mantis - Chloroharpax Modesta

3. Budwing mantis - Parasphendale Agrionina

4. Grass mantis - Thesprotia Graminis

5. Orchid mantis - Hymenopus Coronatus

6. Ghost mantis - P. Paradoxa

7. Spiny flower mantis - P. Wahlbergii

8. Desert pebble mantis - Eremiaphilla sp.

9. Texas unicorn mantis - Phyllovates chlorophaea

10. Asian giant mantis - H. Membranacea

11. Peruvian stick mantis - Pseudovates Peruvianan/Phyllovates?

12. African twig mantis - Popa sp

13. North aAfrican ground mantis - Oxyothepsis Dumonti

14: Boxer mantis - Otomantis sp.

I dropped marble mantis and devil flower mantis from my list of culture already but still having trouble spending too much time. Thanks in advance for any input.

Edited: scientific name included ---- sorry Isis, hope this help. By the way, i forgotten about North African grass mantis (No. 13)

Second Edit - bummer i forgotten my boxer mantis.....


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## randyardvark

yen thats a hard one! do you have any charater preferences? which do you find the most interesting in your opinion? and which are the highest maintinance? i mean its all very well for me to say drop the budwings, the asians and the ghosts, but bud wings may be your fav species ect,

the easyier to gain species may be better to drop however as if you want to get back into those species it would be easyier to do so than say with the bark mantids

sorry for beating about the bush, but i hope this helped in some vague way :?


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## Isis

I hate these awful english names  I always have hard time dtranslating them to only-correct latin  

Anyway: In my opinion drop: Chloroharpax, Hierodula, Peruvian stick.

I guess you will quit raising orchids too after your extraordinary success with them...

btw: I feel quite the same, having more than 10 species, I've decided to keep a pair or three of some more popular species. I have more from rare species.


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## CockroachYet

-Hello Yen, a very hard to answering question, but the next list was taked from your own list, and is only my very own particular selection ((for still keep them)) from your own list ((with no order of preference)):

-Orchid Mantis.

-Spiny Flower Mantis.

-Ghost mantis.

-African Twig Mantis

-Bark Mantis.

-Asian Giant Mantis.

-Best regards. Roberto.


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## padkison

Ok, If it were me (and I am not you, beauty is in the eye of the beholder), I would drop

1. Florida bark mantis (interesting but not a real beauty)

2. Nigerian flower mantis (cute little guys but not a lot of pizazz)

8. Desert pebble mantis (interesting but not fascinating)

9. Texas unicorn mantis (pick between this and peruvian)

10. Asian giant mantis (Nice, but something has to go and these take space)

11. Peruvian stick mantis (pick between this and Texas unicorn)

4. &amp; 13. Drop one grass mantis species

Note that I've only kept a couple of those on the list so I am going off of pictures and caresheet info on many. Also, you know I've only been keeping mantids for about 9 months.

I do know exactly what you mean about trying to keep the number of creatures to a manageable level.

IMHO - all species have something unique about them that makes one want to keep them.

Good luck with such a hard decision!



> If you are given a chance to chose only half of the species list below (in none particular order), which would you like to drop? it is taking too much of my personnal time, and i am afraid that i may not be able to give the best to all the species. 1. Florida bark mantis
> 
> 2. Nigerian flower mantis
> 
> 3. Budwing mantis
> 
> 4. Grass mantis
> 
> 5. Orchid mantis
> 
> 6. Ghost mantis
> 
> 7. Spiny flower mantis
> 
> 8. Desert pebble mantis
> 
> 9. Texas unicorn mantis
> 
> 10. Asian giant mantis
> 
> 11. Peruvian stick mantis
> 
> 12. African twig mantis
> 
> I dropped marble mantis and devil flower mantis from my list of culture already but still having trouble spending too much time. Thanks in advance for any input.


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## yen_saw

Sorry i updated my list, would gladly hear more. isis, Perry, Roberto, Randy, If you change your mind, please let me know.


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## xenuwantsyou

1. Florida bark mantis - Gonatista grisea

5. Orchid mantis - Hymenopus Coronatus

9. Texas unicorn mantis - Phyllovates chlorophaea

10. Asian giant mantis - H. Membranacea

11. Peruvian stick mantis - Pseudovates Peruvianan/Phyllovates?

12. African twig mantis - Popa sp

If it were up to me, I would drop those. Realize I've kept very few mantids, so I'm more inclined to suggest keeping the ones I'm more interested in keeping some day. :?


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## wuwu

i feel exactly the same way as you, even though i only have 9 species at the moment. i'm thinking about dropping half of my species, most likely the "normal looking species."

if i were you, i would drop these species:

2. Nigerian flower mantis - Chloroharpax Modesta

3. Budwing mantis - Parasphendale Agrionina

4. Grass mantis - Thesprotia Graminis

5. Orchid mantis - Hymenopus Coronatus

6. Ghost mantis - P. Paradoxa

10. Asian giant mantis - H. Membranacea

13. North aAfrican ground mantis - Oxyothepsis Dumonti


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## Isis

For me only 1 species would be easy to drop  I HATE Hierodulas.

As to other... if you are dropping orchids, I would'n mind getting some adults you know  [a joke, if I exchanged something for these you would have a much greater dilemma  ]

It depends on the country. In Poland other species are on top than in US. Keep that in mind. And you have a couple of grass species- save only 1 of them which you find m,ost interesting- they look alike and behave alike, if I were you I would do that.

So me list to drop-:

1.HIERODULA

2. Chloroharpax (there is no cuteness factor in them  )

3-4. Some grass mantids

5. Hymenopus (but I would 100% save them  these precious gems! )


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## hibiscusmile

Oh please keep the Orchids. They are so lovely! And the Devil, the Ghost, the Dead leaf and the Spiny Flower, and if you can the others too!  But defineatly keep the Orchid, Devil, Ghost, Dead leaf and Spiny!

These are my favorites, and you did ask!


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## hibiscusmile

Oh please keep in mind the species (male or female) that reply! Thanks Yen


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## yen_saw

Wow, afraid orchid will have to go hibiscusmaile. I am just waiting to see if more breeders are able to breed them, i will definately drop orchid from the list if this species is doing well here in the states.



> i mean its all very well for me to say drop the budwings, the asians and the ghosts, but bud wings may be your fav species ect


Randy indeed they are my fav! I sold all of them just to buy them back again (from the same person i sold to)! BUt i am going to miss them, however, they are doing well here too so no worry.



> I guess you will quit raising orchids too after your extraordinary success with them...


 Thanks Isis, it has been great fun raising them, although i haven't kept them as long as budwing mantis...err i mean P. Agrionina :wink: hope you have fun with the one i sent you too.Perry, you got my PM!! and agree with you on Giant Asian, except that my female just laid an ooth :?

wuwu, i feel your pain too!!

Thanks Roberto, i will take note of it.


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## Christian

Hi.

Now, I would handle it like this:

1. Florida bark mantis - _Gonatista grisea_

-&gt; Interesting one, somewhat difficult. Maybe not beautiful, but very special. I would definitely keep it.

2. Nigerian flower mantis - _Chloroharpax modesta_

-&gt; A nice one, rather new in stock, and doesn't need much space, so you can keep it or not.

3. Budwing mantis - _Parasphendale agrionina_

-&gt; drop it; everyone has it and they are really boring

4. Grass mantis - _Thesprotia graminis_

-&gt; unusual species, doesn't need much space either; keep it.

5. Orchid mantis - _Hymenopus coronatus_

-&gt; drop it; everyone has it. They are nice, but somewhat "worn".

6. Ghost mantis - _P. paradoxa_

-&gt; drop this one, too. Everyone has it. You can take it back when you get more time or loose some other species.

7. Spiny flower mantis - _P. wahlbergii_

-&gt; drop it; everyone has it. It's a beautiful one, but not very challenging.

8. Desert pebble mantis - _Eremiaphila_ sp.

-&gt; definitely: keep it! A difficult species with interesting behavior, like no other mantis you have

9. Texas unicorn mantis - _Phyllovates chlorophaea_

-&gt; keep it. All members of this group are difficult, even if this does not look like at the moment. A real challange to breed those. If it will turn out that they are easy, you can abandon them. Not available in Europe.

10. Asian giant mantis - _H. membranacea_

-&gt; drop it; boring, needs a lot of space and everyone has it.

11. Peruvian stick mantis - _Pseudovates peruviana/Phyllovates_?

-&gt; see _Phyllovates chlorophaea_. Everyone seems to have this one at the moment, but wait 2 generations! Remember _Pseudovates arizonae_? You see!

12. African twig mantis - _Popa spurca_

-&gt; widespread; you can drop it.

13. North African ground mantis - _Oxyothepsis dumonti_

-&gt; this one is new in stock; keep it.

14: Boxer mantis - _Otomantis_ sp.

-&gt; keep it; they are small, show interesting behavior and do not need much space. Also a species which tends to disappear from the stock, so wait some generations!

This is how I would do it. Challenging species are by far more interesting, as they require some attention and experience.

Regards,

Christian


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## Isis

Oh Christian I don't agree with you!

Parasphendale is one of the most interesting mantises I've raised! Maybe simple to keep but the colours, the "angryness", the hunting- they are very interesting IMO.

The rest... I wouldn't said anything bad about the species you dropped- polish breeders would drop Oxyothespis definately but not Hymenopus nor Pseudocreobotra


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## Orin

KEEP THESE

1. Florida bark mantis - Gonatista grisea

5. Orchid mantis - Hymenopus Coronatus

6. Ghost mantis - P. Paradoxa

9. Texas unicorn mantis - Phyllovates chlorophaea


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## padkison

I am finding it very interesting to see everyones' opinions. Helps me rethink what I want to culture from new perspectives.


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## sean

i agree with christian. it would be a shame for you to drop mantids that are very rare in the hobby. it may be that some of the more common species are your favourites(as are mine), so keep some, but everyone has them and you will easily be able to re-stock with these in the future. The other less common species would be much more difficult to come by at a later date. Thats how i would make the decision.


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## CockroachYet

-Also, may help to definy exactly what is your particular search ((looking for)) in the mantis breeding ((I am not a breeder but some animal breeders may apply these point of view for re-definy their breeding stock)), is say, awesome looking species, or very rare species, or very hard to breed species, or small or big species, or common looking species, or a mix of all above ways and other not mentioned ways.

-Every way have their own pros and cons on their road. Principally is a definition about which are your most favourites species of mantis for owning/keeping by any reason you definy. And finally, only take all other points of view said here ((mines included)) like a none reference definitive ((but please keep breeding the Orchid Mantis :wink: )).

-Best regards. Roberto.


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## jplelito

1. Florida bark mantis - Gonatista grisea

I'm with Christian on this one.. they may prove to be really cool. Their behavior is not like most other mantids.

2. Nigerian flower mantis - Chloroharpax Modesta

Small, but once you've sold a lot of them you can get rid of it... someone else will breed it.

3. Budwing mantis - Parasphendale Agrionina

I love these too, I will keep these because students love them - if you need more later, PM me, we can trade. But otherwise ditch 'em.

4. Grass mantis - Thesprotia Graminis

Maybe keep out of uniqueness at the moment.

5. Orchid mantis - Hymenopus Coronatus

Since you made this species so easy, you are probably safe to get rid of it, once you know other people will maintain it.

6. Ghost mantis - P. Paradoxa

Several others breed these, and even though they don't take much space their generation times are looooooooong. Probably safe to get rid of it.

7. Spiny flower mantis - P. Wahlbergii

I don't know too much about these guys, but if other folks breed them, it's safe to get rid of them.

8. Desert pebble mantis - Eremiaphilla sp.

Must keep! You are good at breeding things before anyone else, so once you teach the rest of us, you can get rid of it. 

9. Texas unicorn mantis - Phyllovates chlorophaea

Keep! Same as #8.

10. Asian giant mantis - H. Membranacea

Ditch 'em. They are widespread enough without your help.

11. Peruvian stick mantis - Pseudovates Peruvianan/Phyllovates?

Keep! Same as #8.

12. African twig mantis - Popa sp

Same as #7.

13. North African ground mantis - Oxyothepsis Dumonti

Keep until others breed them, maybe?

14: Boxer mantis - Otomantis sp.

Please keep these! They have many VERY interesting behaviors. If you are going to get rid of them make sure you get some into the hands of us researchers first!

Good luck trimming your colony.. I always hate getting rid of any critters... :?


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## yen_saw

Thanks for the reply all, please do not hesitate to voice your opinion. I am all ear.

Here is my "draft" list

Orchid, NIgerian flower, spiny flower - out of the three, spiny flower is selected (Sad that orchid and Nigeria flower have to go  ). Orchid mantis is no longer a "rare" collection now and i am sure breeders around the world (especially the US which i am more concern) have cracked the secret "breeding code". Nigerian is new here but there are not a difficult species to breed as far as i know. However, spiny flower mantis is still uncommon here in the states and i am hoping to breed them again. Nevertheless it will still be a while before i am really "done" with this generation of orchid and nigerian flower. So... sorry i know some of you will hate me for this!!

desert pebble, florida bark, grass mantis - have to go with Eremiaphilla. They are hatching left and right for me right now, i am hoping to see them becoming popular here, it is a very nice species i have to say. They are so lovely that i am worry i might fail to breed them, so i will most likely sell some to breeders here, two breeders is always better than 1 breeder!! The other two species are local species and there is always a chance to get them again, but i will certainly get back to florida bark one day.

BUdwing, african twig, ghost - i am not sure which one to keep!! they are all pretty species but i am probably going to get rid of them all :? .

Peruvian stick vs Texas Unicorn - well, i need to keep both of them, but my time will be on the later species. They are both tough species to breed which is what i heard but i am ready to break the myth (hopefully).

Asian giant, boxer, north african - most likely boxer, although they are all doing very well for me right now.

I'm hoping to get a few more rare species to breed... which is why i need to get rid some of them in the first hand.


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## wuwu

i'm glad you're keeping p. wahlberggii, they are a very interesting species. i think i'm going to give up on breeding mine. i tried many times but the male is just not interested. i've talked to a few people that have breed them and tried their techniques but none worked. i guess my male is a dud.


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## Jay

You will have to excuse me for interjecting this in, Yen Saw, but I think it is a wonderful thing that you were able to breed the orchids so well and I am sad to see that you decided not to continue breeding them.

I have had to take a look at my small mantis collection in the past too, and have had to think of my insect priorities vs. other priorities. Because of all of the other priorities in my life I decided a while ago that I could only focus on one or two species at a time. When you have a family it can sometimes be pretty taxing on the family to always be taking care of the mantids.

I am sure that whatever you decide to do, you will do well at it.


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## yen_saw

Wuwu, it is like a lottery in mating this beautiful species (spiny flower). I have a male that never interested in mating and i have another two male that have no problem at all when pairing up with another female. So each of them has their own character. Give it another try, keep the place warm before introduce both of them in the same net cage. Good luck.

Jay, thanks! i am really thinking of going back and breed dead leaf mantis again. But my effort will be on Texas unicorn, pebble desert, and boxer for now. But i will have petty much the rest of my current culture available until they are all sold for this generation.


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## Peekaboo

I may be chiming in late, but after a lot of thinking, I'd keep the following 4 species for sure.

Spiney flower mantis - P. Wahlbergii

I still can't get over how alien they look.

Desert pebble mantis - Eremiaphilla sp.

Incredibly cute little species. As Christian mentioned it'd be interesting to watch what behavior they exhibit.

Boxer mantis - Otomantis sp.

I just like them and haven't had the opportunity to try my hand at them.

Grass mantis - Thesprotia Graminis

Seems like an interesting species to watch develop.


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## yen_saw

Lilian, yes i would like to continue the first three species you mentioned but grass mantis is pretty common here and they are not difficult to raise so i am going to drop it from my list. Thanks for your kind feedback. If you like grass mantis i will send you a few with your current order tomorrow, that would help saving more flies for others


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## joossa

Whatever you do Yen, PLEASE keep the orchids! I have seen your progress with them and I am amazed!


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## OGIGA

> Whatever you do Yen, PLEASE keep the orchids! I have seen your progress with them and I am amazed!


I second that. I really like the orchids... which probably means I should get some.


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## yen_saw

Some e-mail from hobbyists and protest from my son make me change my mind on dropping orchid mantis. So orchid stays in the list! However, i will have to let Peruvian stick mantis go in order to accommodate some new species which hopefully be available in my culture soon. They are Oxypilus distinctus, Pseudoharpax virescens, Pnignomantis sp. and also re-populate these wonderful species - Dead leaf ( Deroplatys sp) and devil flower (B. mendica). Lets hope this will come true.

Again, thanks for everyone who spare time to share their thought here.


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## joossa

> Some e-mail from hobbyists and protest from my son make me change my mind on dropping orchid mantis. So orchid stays in the list!


ALRIGHT! Woot!!!


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## wuwu

> Some e-mail from hobbyists and protest from my son make me change my mind on dropping orchid mantis. So orchid stays in the list! However, i will have to let Peruvian stick mantis go in order to accommodate some new species which hopefully be available in my culture soon. They are Oxypilus distinctus, Pseudoharpax virescens, Pnignomantis sp. and also re-populate these wonderful species - Dead leaf ( Deroplatys sp) and devil flower (B. mendica). Lets hope this will come true.Again, thanks for everyone who spare time to share their thought here.


oh no, i was thinking about dropping peruvian stick mantids too.


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## yen_saw

Ah bummer!! I trust Perry will be able to continue this species. Although he is the only person i know holding a good size culture for this species. I still have an ooth for this species incubating right now.



> ALRIGHT! Woot!!!


Only wish my son can be more helpful in rearing this species.


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## Peekaboo

> Some e-mail from hobbyists and protest from my son make me change my mind on dropping orchid mantis.


Peer pressure strikes again!  Not-so-secretly though, I'm glad you're keeping them.


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## OGIGA

Yay!!! Long live orchids!


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## yen_saw

> Some e-mail from hobbyists and protest from my son make me change my mind on dropping orchid mantis.
> 
> 
> 
> Peer pressure strikes again!  Not-so-secretly though, I'm glad you're keeping them.
Click to expand...

Yeah Lili, i cracked under pressure. :roll:

Either way now i will have to deal with all these orchid hatchling. Another orchid ooth hatched out around 100 nymph yesterday. After going through the record, found out it was the third consecutive ootheca from the same female which hatched out over 100 nymph (1st ooth - 130 nymphs, 2nd ooth - 120 nymphs), and i have her fourth and fifth oothecae incubating. Guess her future babies alone will fill up all my net cages. :evil: Glad i let few ooth from another female went to Poland (Empiu), one of it hatched out hundred nymphs as well or i am in serious trouble finding excess fruit flies.


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## Jay

Glad to hear you are keeping the orchids, Yen.


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## yen_saw

Hi Jay, yes i am going to continue to the third generation instead of letting them all go. I sold out all the large orchid recently after deciding to drop this species. Now my breeding stock are only L3 so there will be a gap soon as my Orchid females are getting into 5-6 ootheca now, but i am sure other breeders here will fill up the gap. It would be interesting to see how the inbreeding affects the hatching rate (not planning to intorduce newblood) but so far it is the same.


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## colddigger

personally I would just keep trying to find an efficient routine to take care of them all(I'm greedy like that), but if you have to only keep some then I think you should pick like this:

1-2 mantis that you personally enjoy very much

1+ mantis that is popular and easily managed(for the beginners, like me)

2+ mantis that are rare/hard to breed in captivaty

1+ mantis that is an active hunter(vicious)/ground dwelling hunter

i think the Texas Unicorn Mantis would be a really nice thing to keep by the looks of pics I've seen.


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## yen_saw

Thanks colddigger for your input, i am working towards that direction as well. I figured the only way for me to try as many species as possible is too keep only one generation of each species, unfortunately this also means dropping some species eventhough they are nice and pretty. Hopefully I can reduce my breeding species to only 5 by the end of this year, if only i can resist more new species which I failed miserably this year :x



> 1+ mantis that is popular and easily managed(for the beginners, like me)


If you can handle beginner species, there is really only little extra effort from you to step up to an "intermediate" species.


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## Rob Byatt

> if only i can resist more new species


Trust me, this is impossible :wink:


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## yen_saw

Dang Rob.... you are a psychic!! :wink: ok maybe down to 8 species  unless they all die mysteriously one night :twisted: just kidding!!


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## hibiscusmile

Well I see you took my advice and are keeping my favorite, way to go Yen. ps, I would like to try my hand at them if you have an Ooth to sell!!! :lol: :wink:


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## yen_saw

Yes HIbiscusmile your advice was considered among with many others, thanks.

Actually I prefer to trade orchid mantis ootheca for other species of mantis instead of selling them. I only sold few orchid ootheca locally. The one I sent to DeShawn and Jenn hatched out handsomely, i believed close to hundred, but i can start to see a decline in hatching rate as the number of ootheca from each female approaching 6-7th ooth. One of the ootheca from the female orchid - which has the best hatching record - couldn't break 100 nymphs for the first time, but that was her 6th ooth, i took the pic yesterday while it was still hatching.












I will have more nymphs to offer though.......


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## OGIGA

Just wondering, about how many orchids in an ooth can you expect to make it to adulthood?


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## yen_saw

They are not very difficult to raise to adulthood Ogiga. If the food and conditions are right, mortality rate is about 10-20% around L1, around 5% from L2-L4, and &lt;5% after that. Large nymph seldom have any problem growing and molting. So all in all, i would say around 60-70% should make it to adulthood. This is based on my own experience.


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## OGIGA

That's amazingly a lot! Makes me excited.


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## asdsdf

How will you "drop" the species? Freezer? (I hope not) Or giving them all away?(I prefer the second  ) Although you may not want orchids anymore, it is still a very poplular "exoctic" mantis, and newcomers would be willing to purchase them (me). Even the common ones, people would want to buy since they are easier to take care of, and possibly more hardy. I think you should drop species by the number of sales. The customer is always right!


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## yen_saw

The way i drop a species is to sell them all (adults or nymphs) and do not breed them again. I also give them away for free to anyone with orders. The last thing i do is to feed them to another mantis (yes i can be cruel sometimes! :twisted: )

Regarding Orchid mantis, i didn't drop them from my list. I was about to drop it but decided to continue (with "peer presures" from fellow forum members :wink: ) but by then i have sold out all the larger orchid so i have to start from little hatchling and thus a "gap" between generations. But they are many other breeding orchids right now i am sure you can find them without problem in the USA. Currenly i only have L1 orchid which is new bloodline hatched out recently so i don't have any extra until more are available hopefully in September. Hopefully this explains it.


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## Ben.M

> The way i drop a species is to sell them all (adults or nymphs) and do not breed them again. I also give them away for free to anyone with orders. The last thing i do is to feed them to another mantis (yes i can be cruel sometimes! :twisted: ).


Wouldnt that backfire every now and again :?


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## asdsdf

Th eating part at least. Has it ever backfired? Unless you act really cruel and handicap the other one.(removal of claws?)


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## OGIGA

Maybe just giving it to a budwing or an African will do the job with no worries.


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## yen_saw

> Th eating part at least. Has it ever backfired? Unless you act really cruel and handicap the other one.(removal of claws?)


Nah no problem, obviously i am not throwing in excess "feeder" mantis the same size as the mantis i am feeding.


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## Asa

yeah seems weird...


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## yen_saw

Trust me it is not weird when you have too many and you cannot release any.


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