# Idolo Nymphs L2 now .. anyone at L3 yet ?



## Malnra

The ones I received from Yen were and still are at L2 ... was curious if anyone's had molted to L3 yet ?


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## Andrew

Had my first L3 yesterday.

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?sh...80&amp;start=80


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## macro junkie

Geoff_K said:


> The ones I received from Yen were and still are at L2 ... was curious if anyone's had molted to L3 yet ?


im still wondering what yours are going to be like with out a lamp..i bet they wont grow as fast as the ones with lamps.just a guees tho.


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## Andrew

Mine are being kept around 90-100F during the day, so I would imagine they will continue to grow pretty fast. The chart showing conditions from Arusha has an average of something like 80F for every month though, so it may not be necessary for them to be kept so hot.


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## Malnra

macro junkie said:


> im still wondering what yours are going to be like with out a lamp..i bet they wont grow as fast as the ones with lamps.just a guees tho.


i use a floodlight x 2 to keep the temps in the tank up to 93ish with 70% humidity during the day


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## MikhailsDinos

Mine are at L2 stage still. I'm keeping them at 90F to 100F during the day and 70F to 75F during the night, I'm using a floodlight as well. The humidity is at 80% during the day and a 100% during the night. I have everything on timers for the geckos, so I just hooked you the light to my geckos outlet. I set the timer to mach the day and night times of Colorado.

I have a blog now as well.  

Looks like we are all doing well so far.

Thanks again

Mikhail


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## macro junkie

Geoff_K said:


> i use a floodlight x 2 to keep the temps in the tank up to 93ish with 70% humidity during the day


oh ok..i just rember u saying your not going to use a lamp..did u change your mind?


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## Malnra

macro junkie said:


> oh ok..i just rember u saying your not going to use a lamp..did u change your mind?


I do not recall saying that. Then again, I am getting old and forgetful ... LOL


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## Andrew

Mikhails, if you made an entry in your blog, then you need to click "entry options" and "publish" in order for us to all see it. I make that mistake sometimes too, so I thought I would throw it out there.


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## MikhailsDinos

Thank you Andrew!

That makes since, okay now I have a blog.  



Andrew said:


> Mikhails, if you made an entry in your blog, then you need to click "entry options" and "publish" in order for us to all see it. I make that mistake sometimes too, so I thought I would throw it out there.


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## asdsdf

Very interesting. I really need to start a blog.


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## MikhailsDinos

One of the nymphs terned L3 last night. It looks like the L3 nymph can take blue bottle flies now. This species is going to be bigger than I thought.

Thanks again

Mikhail


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## macro junkie

MikhailsDinos said:


> One of the nymphs terned L3 last night. It looks like the L3 nymph can take blue bottle flies now. This species is going to be bigger than I thought.Thanks again
> 
> Mikhail


they can take blue bottles at L2  pretty mad


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## Malnra

I waited until he was done molting to say this .... 1 of mine is now L3 .... the others should follow in the next few days I would think. 1 step closer to an adult ;- )


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## MikhailsDinos

Thats good news, because all I have at the moment it the blue bottle flies and i'm waiting for them to tern into flies still. I hope they tern to flies soon. I'm trying not to use crickets for any of my mantis from now on. I've had so many deaths from crickets eating the mantis when molting, I just dont want to worry about the food eating my mantis. One less worry.

Thanks again

Mikhail



macro junkie said:


> they can take blue bottles at L2  pretty mad


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## MikhailsDinos

Congratulations my friend, It looks like we are all to a good start of things.

Thanks again

Mikhail



Geoff_K said:


> I waited until he was done molting to say this .... 1 of mine is now L3 .... the others should follow in the next few days I would think. 1 step closer to an adult ;- )


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## Malnra

another molted last night .... 2 down .. 3 to go.


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## Villosa

Four of mine turned L4 a few days ago, I'm still waiting on the other 5 to turn. One L2 was eaten by a L3 long ago. They feed on gut loaded blatta lateralis exclusively.


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## Malnra

Villosa said:


> Four of mine turned L4 a few days ago, I'm still waiting on the other 5 to turn. One L2 was eaten by a L3 long ago. They feed on gut loaded blatta lateralis exclusively.


do you know when they were born ? also .. did not know they were hunters, thought they just waited for things to fly by them, though i am not going to use roaches for any of my mantis, wife would wig if one got away ;- )


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## Villosa

I got the package beginning April, so at least two weeks before that. I actually hand feed my group every night with tweezers. Been doing that since L2 and they don't have problems with it.


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## macro junkie

Villosa said:


> I got the package beginning April, so at least two weeks before that. I actually hand feed my group every night with tweezers. Been doing that since L2 and they don't have problems with it.


why do u hand feed them?


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## Villosa

Cause I want to. It keeps them in check and I can make sure even the lazy ones get to eat everyday instead of sitting there and possibly ambush siblings. I don't use flies anymore, too much of a hassle. My B. lateralis colony is only going to get bigger so I'm good to go.


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## mrblue

Villosa said:


> Cause I want to. It keeps them in check and I can make sure even the lazy ones get to eat everyday instead of sitting there and possibly ambush siblings. I don't use flies anymore, too much of a hassle. My B. lateralis colony is only going to get bigger so I'm good to go.


of all the mantids i've ever had, i've noticed that the most alert and healthy ones aren't too keen on being hand fed, and back away from objects placed close to their face. i guess maybe it varies from mantis to mantis.


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## Villosa

mrblue said:


> of all the mantids i've ever had, i've noticed that the most alert and healthy ones aren't too keen on being hand fed, and back away from objects placed close to their face. i guess maybe it varies from mantis to mantis.


This is where things get intersting. My idolos aren't "tweezer" fed really. I actually use a thin, yet strong wire attached a thin needle. The roach is impaled on the needle, a bit curel I know, and wiggled naturally using the wire's fexibility while approaching the mantis. The mantis then accepts the food.


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## MikhailsDinos

Funny you should mention this.

I now have two of the Idolo Nymphs at L3 instar. I'm feeding the L2 nymphs fruit flies still. The L3 nymphs wont take the fruit flies. So I'm feeding them B. lateralis roaches from my colony, until I get the flies on Wednesday.

Nice work everyone!

Thanks again

Mikhail



Villosa said:


> Cause I want to. It keeps them in check and I can make sure even the lazy ones get to eat everyday instead of sitting there and possibly ambush siblings. I don't use flies anymore, too much of a hassle. My B. lateralis colony is only going to get bigger so I'm good to go.


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## Villosa

I've been trying to sex my nymphs but haven't been having much luck. They all look so similar. I've counted segments but it's a little hard sometimes. Is there an easier way at L3? I just haven't notice any differences while trying some of the methods. Thanks


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## macro junkie

Villosa said:


> This is where things get intersting. My idolos aren't "tweezer" fed really. I actually use a thin, yet strong wire attached a thin needle. The roach is impaled on the needle, a bit curel I know, and wiggled naturally using the wire's fexibility while approaching the mantis. The mantis then accepts the food.


try hand feeding them when u have 20 in a net cage. :lol:


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## Villosa

Just got done feeding them and noticed another has turned L4. Only 4 more to go


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## Malnra

now at 3 L3's ... 2 more to go ....


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## mrblue

Villosa said:


> I've been trying to sex my nymphs but haven't been having much luck. They all look so similar. I've counted segments but it's a little hard sometimes. Is there an easier way at L3? I just haven't notice any differences while trying some of the methods. Thanks


if you havent seen it already, have a look at my blog. i have a couple of photos that seem a good way to sex idolomantis, from L2. the males have a little hook on the third to last segment, females dont. i'm not guaranteeing anything, when mine grow i can tell you if i was right, but for now this seems the only way to tell my nymphs apart. 3 of them have this hook/spike, 2 dont, im assuming this is the gender split.


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## macro junkie

mrblue said:


> if you havent seen it already, have a look at my blog. i have a couple of photos that seem a good way to sex idolomantis, from L2. the males have a little hook on the third to last segment, females dont. i'm not guaranteeing anything, when mine grow i can tell you if i was right, but for now this seems the only way to tell my nymphs apart. 3 of them have this hook/spike, 2 dont, im assuming this is the gender split.


my blog on this forum wont work?how did u get yours to work?


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## Malnra

... #4 just molted .. seems all i had to do was wait just a little longer .. OR .. the magic of asking made it happen .. yeh .. i'll go with the magic thought .... ;- &gt;

* edit * seems that the last one to molt did not come out with one of his front legs (not claws) fully intact. It is missing the last segment. It has the knee and a little below that. It may have problems climbing and hanging on, which would impede feeding. I will probably put it in a smaller container so the flys cant get too far from it. This may be one that does not make it unless they can grow back that last segment in future molts.


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## mrblue

macro junkie said:


> my blog on this forum wont work?how did u get yours to work?


depends what you mean by "work" but i think where alot of people have trouble is that you have to "publish" every post you make, it is "draft" (and only viewable by you) as default. maybe best to ask a mod.


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## Malnra

5 of 5 are now level 3 ... only the 1 had a slight problem with his leg missing that last segment below the "knee"

now to see how they do when they molt to 4th instar, in a couple weeks i am guessing.


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## Andrew

A quick update on mine:

The first to molt to L3 died shortly after

Another mismolted. The arms got caught.

Three of the remaining eight have molted to L3 and are doing well.


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## MikhailsDinos

Nice guys, great work!

8 of mine are now L3 and two are still L2. I'm hoping the two left molt tonight.  

Thanks again

Mikhail


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## Andrew

Have all of yours molted at night? Mine have all molted in late afternoon - evening.


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## MikhailsDinos

I've had about half of them molt at night and the other half in the early mornings. I get up for work at 4:00am in morning and I would see most of them molting then, but I would also see some of them molt just before I went to bed (Around 12:00 at night).  

Thanks again

Mikhail



Andrew said:


> Have all of yours molted at night? Mine have all molted in late afternoon - evening.


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## Villosa

Mine molted usually around 10pm to 1am when the lights are down. Waiting for the last 3 to molt to L4...


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## Villosa

So as of last night I am waiting on my last slow idolo to molt to L4. Should happen soon since it's been dangling there for days not wanting to eat. The others are fine, they molt white but develop a very attractive tan, crispy looks, almost like frosted flakes without the frosting. I've been asking around and according to Yen, it'll be hard to sex them until males develop their thicker antenna or "horns" as I like to call them, don't they look like horns?


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## macro junkie

Villosa said:


> So as of last night I am waiting on my last slow idolo to molt to L4. Should happen soon since it's been dangling there for days not wanting to eat. The others are fine, they molt white but develop a very attractive tan, crispy looks, almost like frosted flakes without the frosting. I've been asking around and according to Yen, it'll be hard to sex them until males develop their thicker antenna or "horns" as I like to call them, don't they look like horns?


iv been told this also...


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## MikhailsDinos

Okay, I have one that has to molt and then all 10 are L3. I have one with a missing leg and now after molting has a little black leg. Otherwise all are eating blue bottle flies like there is no tomorrow.  

So that means we will have to wait until they they are very close to adulthood to tell the sex, very interesting!

Thanks again

Mikhail


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## MikhailsDinos

Okay, another update. All 10 nymphs are now L3 and eating like monsters.  

Thanks again

Mikhail


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## Malnra

one of mine is now 4th instar ... he molted last night ...

only took him 11 days to go from 3 to 4 ....


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## Villosa

My last L3 molted to L4 two days ago. One L4 molted to L5 last night. I should stop being lazy and start counting the days too. So far no mismolts, no lost of body parts.


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## Malnra

second one molted to 4th instar ....


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## Birdfly

Mine are mostly 4th instar now and still taking terrestrial prey insects, although fly species are offered all the time, i took one out for a photo shoot and offered it a cockroach, it stalked it like any other species of mantid, caught and ate it


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## macro junkie

Birdfly said:


> i took one out for a photo shoot and offered it a cockroach,


only flying insects for me..i wouldn't dream of feeding my idolos cockroaches.Seems risky?


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## Villosa

What's the risk? They're easy to gut load with your choice of nutrients, cost effective, high in protein, odor free, and can't fly. Mine are on strictly roaches fed different fresh and dried foods for gutload. Perfect idolo molts everytime.


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## Birdfly

As Villosa says, why is there a risk? _I diabolica_ eat allsorts in the wild so why not captivity?

Comercially reared and badly looked after crickets are potentially lethal to nearly all mantids, i wouldnt feed a cricket to any mantid but cockroaches have never been a threat.

The point i was making is that _I diabolica_ at 4th instar are still interested in actively stalking and taking terrestrial feeder insects so people who may find it difficult culturing fly species can do some thing with this.


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## MikhailsDinos

One of my Idolos is now L4. So I have 9 L3 nymphs and 1 L4 nymph. I'm looking forward to this species maturing.

Thanks again

Mikhail


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## Birdfly

Jolly good  

What would any one say is the lowest night time temperature for this mantis?

Only i have had a _Hierodula majuscula_ out in an unheated greenhouse for a fortnight with no ill effects, on the contrary it seems to be doing exellently its also a very vivid green, growing and feeding well even though it still gets quite cool out there.

Because of this i put an _Idolomantis_ nymph out there a few nights ago and it to seems well and is feeding better, i have today put the lot out there :blink: i have also just rigged up a thermostatically controlled 400watt bar heater just in case we get a cold snap but as yet have not turned it on.


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## Villosa

Another went L5 last night. I'm expecting 2 others to do so very soon.


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## Birdfly

Well your half way there


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## mrblue

Birdfly said:


> Jolly good  What would any one say is the lowest night time temperature for this mantis?
> 
> Only i have had a _Hierodula majuscula_ out in an unheated greenhouse for a fortnight with no ill effects, on the contrary it seems to be doing exellently its also a very vivid green, growing and feeding well even though it still gets quite cool out there.
> 
> Because of this i put an _Idolomantis_ nymph out there a few nights ago and it to seems well and is feeding better, i have today put the lot out there :blink: i have also just rigged up a thermostatically controlled 400watt bar heater just in case we get a cold snap but as yet have not turned it on.


i have read that the temperature should be no lower than 20C at night. mine drops to 23C minimum, i have a heatmat under the idolomantis container that is on 24/7. that your heirodula seems fine out there should be no bearing on whether your idolomantis would be. i woud say check the temps first.


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## ismart

Hey guys,

I also i'm keeping Idolo's. I have 10 from Yen's stock. 8 are L3 and 2 are L4. I'm kepping mine at 90F to 100F during the day and 75F at night, humidity is at 80% to 100% at all times. Mine are currently eating honey gut loaded house flies and blue bottle flies. Cant wait till there adults, such an awsome species.

Paul


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## acerbity

Can't wait till every one of you have so many idolo ooths you'll be practically giving them away


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## Birdfly

Temps were 15 at floor level and 18/19? head height, three had gone down to knee level and moulted up and two were at about 6 inches off the floor one eating a blue bottle the other a hunting spider _Pardosa_ sp early this morning.

If i have learnt one thing about keeping mantids/inverts its dont believe every thing you read, even so i will set my stat a bit higher as it dosnt seem to correspond with the setting?


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## mrblue

Birdfly said:


> If i have learnt one thing about keeping mantids/inverts its dont believe every thing you read.


theres blindly believing everything you read, and theres following sound advice from people who know what theyre talking about. i know i would rather stick with what has been proven to work.

EDIT: this post was not intended to be inflammatory or rude or whatever it came across as. instead of saying "people who know what they are talking about", in hindsight i should have said "people who have bred this species before".


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## Birdfly

I know what im talking about mate, i merely asked what is the minimum temps for this species.


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## Villosa

Another is molting to L4 as I type this. It's 4am and tank temps are about 78F. I sprayed last night as always.

EDIT: Oh man one leg is slipping!

EDIT2: On good the nymph didn't fall even when it was hanging by 3 legs on my cord. Another perfect molt!


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## macro junkie

Villosa said:


> EDIT: Oh man one leg is slipping!


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## mrblue

MikhailsDinos said:


> So that means we will have to wait until they they are very close to adulthood to tell the sex, very interesting!Thanks again
> 
> Mikhail


i am still not 100% sure, but i think you can tell gender fairly early if you look very closely. mine are fourth instar, i took a couple of photos (very noisy as i had to zoom alot and crop) of one that i think is a male and one that i think is a female. see what you think:












fourth instar male?











fourth instar female?

i'm going by counting the abdomen segments method. what do you lot think?


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## Malnra

Tonight I go to look at my mantis's and see that the Idolo that first molted to 4th instar is dead. No clue what the problem was. He had a couple Blue bottle as well as a couple houseflys in his enclosure. the temps/humidity are well within the range we have all discussed here.

he was first to hit 3rd .. first to hit 4th and first to die ;-(

That leaves me with 1 4th ... 2 3rd and 1 rd missing part of 1 leg ... the 1 legged one i expected to die, but not this guy who was HUGE compared to the others.

Oh well .... and then there were 4 ....


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## Andrew

I have a couple of L4 now too.


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## macro junkie

dont over mist them..i did and i found 1 which looked like its skin started to shed but he wasnt shedding if that makes any sense?im gueesing the water was drying out its skin.luckly for me i only lost 1..i wont be doing thata again.i only have 4 left now at 5th instar.not very good when u think i started with 9 at 1st instar..well i was sent 14 but some died in the post.


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## Gurd

4th instar











5th instar


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## MikhailsDinos

I had my first L5 yesterday and a second this morning. I have had one die out of the ten, dew to cannibalism. It happend when one of them was in molt.

Thanks again

Mikhail


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## Malnra

A second death .... down to 3 out of 5 .. the one with 1 leg short is hanging on .. thought he would die next ... i cant imagine he is going to make it though ....


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## mrblue

a couple of shots of an L5 female (theres more on my blog):











@geoff k

someone recently had a fourth instar with a missing leg moult up to fifth and regenerate it, so dont give up hope!


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## Malnra

thx mrblue ..... the one with the partial missing leg does not climb and i worry he is not eating ... i have taken the drastic measure to kill and fly and offer it to him every other day .... 2 out of 3 times he eventually took the fly .

*edit ...... he molted last night ,.... problem is .. he was unwilling/unable to climb with the 1 leg not complete and was on the ground when he tried to molt .... he was so small there was probably nothing i could do even if i noticed him hacving a problem ... and then there were 2


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## Malnra

Of the 2 that i have left

1 is now 5th instar .. the other one is still 3rd .. slowpoke that he/she is ....


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## mrblue

Geoff_K said:


> Of the 2 that i have left 1 is now 5th instar .. the other one is still 3rd .. slowpoke that he/she is ....


have you tried sexing them? you may get lucky and have a pair.


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## macro junkie

i started with 9..i have 3 left but there all presubadult.  ..

just to let u know 1 of them had a missing leg 2 sheds back and its shed fine both times.


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## mrblue

macro junkie said:


> i started with 9..i have 3 left but there all presubadult.  ..just to let u know 1 of them had a missing leg 2 sheds back and its shed fine both times.


any idea of gender?


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## macro junkie

mrblue said:


> any idea of gender?


god knows.il take some pics tho in the next few days.i hope to god i have 1 of each..  just my luck il have 3 males..lol


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## mrblue

macro junkie said:


> god knows.il take some pics tho in the next few days.i hope to god i have 1 of each..  just my luck il have 3 males..lol


if you look closely you can tell from L2, and at presubadult it should be easy. theres a few (poor quality) photos on my blog showing the differences but im sure if you post some photos here we'll be able to say for sure. if i had three left i would be hoping for two males and a female (in case one of the males was a bit dopey).

(kind of) off topic - i recently discovered my five _Hestiasula brunneriana_ are all male! :angry: :angry: :angry:


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## Malnra

no idea on sex ... i will have to check your site ....

side note .. the one i thought was 3rd still is 4th .. so s/he is not far behind the other one .... i am hoping i have a pair ... if not maybe someone in the US will have what i dont and i will have what they dont and we can do a swap

edit: when i try o click on your blog link ... it says ... You have no permission to view the Blogs and logs me out of the site ... wierd i know .. but wanted to mention it in case others had the same problem


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## mrblue

Geoff_K said:


> no idea on sex ... i will have to check your site ....side note .. the one i thought was 3rd still is 4th .. so s/he is not far behind the other one .... i am hoping i have a pair ... if not maybe someone in the US will have what i dont and i will have what they dont and we can do a swap
> 
> edit: when i try o click on your blog link ... it says ... You have no permission to view the Blogs and logs me out of the site ... wierd i know .. but wanted to mention it in case others had the same problem


  :blink:  i hope that's not the case for everyone. in any case, i already posted some photos on this thread too. theyre on this very page (4th) a bit higher up, showing a male and female fourth instar. the key is the abdomen tip on the underside.

also, didn't yen say he sold his first generation to around 20 people in the US? (i think i also read that he gave you contact details for each other?) if you don't have a pair i would like to think at least one of those can help you out, so there is still hope! there is always bound to be someone needing a male or female somewhere down the line.


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## MikhailsDinos

All 9 of my nymphs are L5 now and eating blue bottles. I now know that I have 8 femals and 1 male, I hope he stays with me. Otherwise I have females for trade.  So if anyone has males for trade and need a female, let me know.

Geoffrey,

I will send a female if you need it.  

Thanks again

Mikhail


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## mrblue

MikhailsDinos said:


> I now know that I have 8 femals and 1 male


 :blink: puts my five hestiasula males to shame.


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## MikhailsDinos

mrblue,

I agree with you on the sexing. It makes a lot of sense and after using your method it looks as if I only have 1 male. I'm 100% sure you are right about the sexing of this species.

Edit:

I must have posted the same time you did, but yeah it is a sad thing indeed. Hopefully someone will do a trade with me in the future?


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## pohchunyee

I have 4 Idolomantis remaining from Yen, all are in L4. However I haven't determine the sex yet. I will take some picture later today. Maybe someone can help me with the sexing.


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## mrblue

pohchunyee said:


> I have 4 Idolomantis remaining from Yen, all are in L4. However I haven't determine the sex yet. I will take some picture later today. Maybe someone can help me with the sexing.


i would love to help, though try to get some of the tip of the underside of the abdomen as this is the only area you can really tell (stuff like antennae are not yet different enough to tell from).


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## Malnra

MikhailsDinos said:


> All 9 of my nymphs are L5 now and eating blue bottles. I now know that I have 8 femals and 1 male, I hope he stays with me. Otherwise I have females for trade.  So if anyone has males for trade and need a female, let me know.Geoffrey,
> 
> I will send a female if you need it.
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Mikhail


Thanks MD .... I am afraid to look to see which i have .. i think i will wait a little longer. This way I can believe i have a pair. No need to fret about having 2 of the same sex since they are no where near breeding age. Sometimes ignorance IS bliss LOL


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## Malnra

MikhailsDinos said:


> All 9 of my nymphs are L5 now and eating blue bottles. I now know that I have 8 femals and 1 male, I hope he stays with me. Otherwise I have females for trade.  So if anyone has males for trade and need a female, let me know.Geoffrey,
> 
> I will send a female if you need it.
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Mikhail


Thanks MD .... I am afraid to look to see which i have .. i think i will wait a little longer. This way I can believe i have a pair. No need to fret about having 2 of the same sex since they are no where near breeding age. Sometimes ignorance IS bliss LOL


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## MikhailsDinos

"Sometimes ignorance IS bliss LOL", Very true.!  

But if you do end up with the same sex, I'm more than happy to help a friend out.

Thanks again

Mikhail

uote name='Geoff_K' date='May 31 2008, 11:18 PM' post='64596']

Thanks MD .... I am afraid to look to see which i have .. i think i will wait a little longer. This way I can believe i have a pair. No need to fret about having 2 of the same sex since they are no where near breeding age. Sometimes ignorance IS bliss LOL


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## pohchunyee

Here are 4 pictures taken today, 4 of my Idolomantis. Sorry if the picture is not clear, kinda shitty camera.

Mantis 1







Mantis 2






Mantis 3






Mantis 4






Hope you guys could tell me the sex. Thanks!!


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## mrblue

pohchunyee said:


> Here are 4 pictures taken today, 4 of my Idolomantis. Sorry if the picture is not clear, kinda shitty camera.Hope you guys could tell me the sex. Thanks!!


they're all male, sorry! i'm sure you can do a swap with someone in the future though.


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## MikhailsDinos

Well if they are all male and I almost have all females. what does that mean? We need to do a trade my friend.  

Thanks again

Mikhail


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## pohchunyee

LOL! All males. I am willing to trade 2 for 2 females.


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## tier

My advice: One of you two guyes better take all, because you will not be able to breed them when you only have around two pairs. Trust me in this one.

Nicest regards,

tierio


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## MikhailsDinos

Some pictures of my L5 Idolomantis diabolica. All 9 are still alive and eating very well. I hope they will be L6 very soon?


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## MikhailsDinos

Good advice, but here's the thing, who will take what? I think I'm going to wait on this one and make sure the sex's are right before sending anything. But I'm sure we will work something out and breed this species successfully. So far they seam easy (Knock on wood)  . Only great care and time will tell.

Thanks again

Mikhail



tier said:


> My advice: One of you two guyes better take all, because you will not be able to breed them when you only have around two pairs. Trust me in this one.Nicest regards,
> 
> tierio


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## mrblue

@mikhail



MikhailsDinos said:


> Good advice, but here's the thing, who will take what?


this does seem to be a problem in that everyone wants to breed them, but there are very few who would be willing to say "here, take all mine as you have a better chance of breeding them than me". i think it would be very rare to find someone willing to do that. unfortunately alot of the time it seems people are quite "out for themselves" and want to do things their own way and on their own which is a shame. but hopefully something can be worked out when the time comes.



MikhailsDinos said:


> So far they seam easy (Knock on wood)  . Only great care and time will tell.


raising them for the first four, five, 6 etc moults is really no big deal, as you've seen. most of the problems associated with this species will come with moulting and then subsequent breeding, which seems to be the biggest stumbling block. you could say these are first steps in a long journey, but then you could also say that a journey of 1000 steps begins with just one!

ps - i don't know when yours usually moult in relation to mine (i would have to go through this thread noting when you have posted news of your moults and compare them to my moults) but just for a guideline four out of my five moulted to 6th instar yesterday and today, so maybe yours are close?


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## Malnra

tier said:


> My advice: One of you two guyes better take all, because you will not be able to breed them when you only have around two pairs. Trust me in this one.Nicest regards,
> 
> tierio


I think I would give it a shot with 2 pairs ;-)

Now if mine turn out to be both male or female i would be willing to work out a deal for ooth's from any breeding that took place. No need to let the 2 i have just die off is the way i see it.


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## MikhailsDinos

Wise words, Mrblue.  

I totally agree with you and think you have good point. It's very true and we are human and that's just our nature. But I'm willing to make deals with other people in a heart beat. I think another reason for people keeping them would be that they did pay a lot of money for them ( I know I did)  It would have to be someone that you really truest with mantis. It's a hard one, because I can see arguments happening if that one person sends the other their mantis and just to have them die on that other person. Then I can see a problem arising. One of us " Including me" has to be man enough to just understand that they are going to die.

Yen, has said the same thing in his experience with this species, that they are easy in between the first molt and the last molt and then you you still have to worry about them not breeding for you. I think feeding them a lot now is so important in the breeding of this species later, or for that matter many species. The reason one of mine died so far is that another of his room mates ate him in a molt. Since then I give them flies everyday, but still only time will tell.

Yes I believe you are right. They have been L5 for sometime now, so I remember yours are just ahead of mine? So hopefully I will see some action soon. The molts are getting longer and longer between each other. I can see why they become harder during these times, you have more to time for things to go wrong the closer they get to adult.  

I think as a big mantis family that we should all come together and work at keeping this species going in captivity, even if we have to make sacrifices.

Thanks again

Mikhail



mrblue said:


> @mikhailthis does seem to be a problem in that everyone wants to breed them, but there are very few who would be willing to say "here, take all mine as you have a better chance of breeding them than me". i think it would be very rare to find someone willing to do that. unfortunately alot of the time it seems people are quite "out for themselves" and want to do things their own way and on their own which is a shame. but hopefully something can be worked out when the time comes.
> 
> raising them for the first four, five, 6 etc moults is really no big deal, as you've seen. most of the problems associated with this species will come with moulting and then subsequent breeding, which seems to be the biggest stumbling block. you could say these are first steps in a long journey, but then you could also say that a journey of 1000 steps begins with just one!
> 
> ps - i don't know when yours usually moult in relation to mine (i would have to go through this thread noting when you have posted news of your moults and compare them to my moults) but just for a guideline four out of my five moulted to 6th instar yesterday and today, so maybe yours are close?


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## mrblue

i agree with your whole post mikhail, but just wanted to add that as far as coming together to help each other keep this species in captivity, all i can offer you is information and my own experiences! because i iam in the uk so i dont think there is any swapping, borrowing or sending. however i think there are more people with idolomantis in the usa than here in the uk so maybe you guys have a better overall chance &lt;_&lt;


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## MikhailsDinos

Well you are still in the mantis family, but off the hook here in America.  Yen, did share out every ones email that got his stock.

But your information is very helpful and I appreciate it, I enjoy hearing what you have to say. Keep the info coming my friend!

Thanks again

Mikhail



mrblue said:


> i agree with your whole post mikhail, but just wanted to add that as far as coming together to help each other keep this species in captivity, all i can offer you is information and my own experiences! because i iam in the uk so i dont think there is any swapping, borrowing or sending. however i think there are more people with idolomantis in the usa than here in the uk so maybe you guys have a better overall chance &lt;_&lt;


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## MikhailsDinos

I had my first L6 molt last night. I have a question? Do the females mature at molt L8 and the males at L7?

Thanks again

Mikhail


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## mrblue

MikhailsDinos said:


> I had my first L6 molt last night. I have a question? Do the females mature at molt L8 and the males at L7?Thanks again
> 
> Mikhail


EDIT: males moult 8 times, females 9 (so an L9 female is subadult, an L8 male is subadult).


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## MikhailsDinos

Ah, okay that makes a lot of sense. So at L6, two more molts for the male and three more for the females?

What molt are yours at the moment? 5 of mine are now L6 and the other 4 are L5. Looks like everything is going well so far.

Thanks again

Mikhail



> i THINK L7 males are subadult and L8 females are subadult, but i am only going by the photos on terra typica (they have photos saying "L9 female = subadult" and "L8 male = subadult", but also photos of first instar nymphs labelled as "L2", and second instar nymphs labelled "L3" etc, so i minus one from all their labels, if you get what i mean? heres the link so you can see for yourself: http://ttwebbase.dyndns.org/mantid/view/78.html ).


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## mrblue

MikhailsDinos said:


> Ah, okay that makes a lot of sense. So at L6, two more molts for the male and three more for the females? What molt are yours at the moment? 5 of mine are now L6 and the other 4 are L5. Looks like everything is going well so far.
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Mikhail


sorry, my mistake! i remember making this same mistake of assuming all the photos are labelled incorrectly, they are not. i just remembered being told by someone who knows for sure that males undergo 8 moults before reaching adulthood, females 9. so an L9 female is indeed subadult, and an L8 male is indeed subadult, and so then at L6, males need 3 more moults, females need 4. hope that helps.

i only have five but they are now all L6 (fifth instar lasted 17 days for me, all previous instars lasted around 12 days each).


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## MikhailsDinos

Thank you for the help.  

I only have two L5 left. The other 7 are all L6 now. I think the L5 might be L6 tonight? So far the setup I put together is working nicely for this species and I have not had one miss molt to date. Lets hope this keeps on working through their molts.  

Thanks again

Mikhail



mrblue said:


> sorry, my mistake! i remember making this same mistake of assuming all the photos are labelled incorrectly, they are not. i just remembered being told by someone who knows for sure that males undergo 8 moults before reaching adulthood, females 9. so an L9 female is indeed subadult, and an L8 male is indeed subadult, and so then at L6, males need 3 more moults, females need 4. hope that helps.i only have five but they are now all L6 (fifth instar lasted 17 days for me, all previous instars lasted around 12 days each).


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## mrblue

this thread has been very quiet lately. got two L7s yesterday, just thought i'd update with a picture for those that don't read my blog.







_L7 female (freshly moulted)_

how are you US guys doing?


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## ABbuggin

nice!


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## MikhailsDinos

All 9 are still doing very well and I had 3 of them tern into L7 in the last two days.

Thanks again

Mikhail


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## Andrew

How is everyone doing? I have six left and my first one just hit pre subadult the other day.


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## Birdfly

Not bad thanks  my first adult female from about 36 hours ago approximately.

I had two batches of 1st instars, one batch was nearly 50% smaller than the other batch, this female is from the smaller batch (same amount of stadia though) she is smaller than my largest sub adult from the larger batch, if that makes any sense and is approx 4 inches, 100mm. My largest female is gunna molt up to adult tonight or tomorrow, hopefully  

Just measured the pronotal sheild from top point to point (width wise) 33mm in smaller one (adult) and 38mm in larger (sub adult) fairly accurately.


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## Andrew

Congrats! Mine are taking their sweet time growing up.


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## Birdfly

Correct me if im wrong but i think i got these on or around the 1st of April as a few days old 1st instars and got my first adult 3 or so days ago.

Which is approximately 4 months to maturation


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## MikhailsDinos

Very nice birdfly, and congratulations!

All 9 of mine are doing very well and they are now L7 and L8. I look forward to adults.


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## Andrew

Got my first subadult the other day. A male.


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## mrblue

anyone out there with subs kept together that wants to seperate them for the final moult, look out for this outline around the mantids' lobes/pronotum:











ive noticed this start to happen a week or so before moulting to adult.. also obviously the wing buds swell up like with any other mantis, they also darken in the few days before the moult.


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## macro junkie

hows every one getting on with there idolos?


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