# Kinda random....



## Tiara (Mar 17, 2009)

Hey guys,

I had 3 wide arm babies. They were all doing excellent then on sunday the littlest one was walking really funny. I thought maybe he is gonna molt or something. Then later that day he was dragging his back legs around or picking them straight up in the air, it looked really weird. So then he was seeming to get weaker but still had a small cricket. So I hoped maybe he would pull through and molt and his legs would be better. Sadly enough, he passed on yesterday. The other two look fine and are acting fine. Anyone have this happen before??? :huh:


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## bassist (Mar 17, 2009)

It just happens I lost one with similar symptoms.


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## ismart (Mar 17, 2009)

This sounds more like some physical damage was inflicted. I have whitnessed this same behavior when i close something on limb. Wide-arms do not handle sickness well. Infact i have never had a wide-arm recover from any sickness for that matter.


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## Tiara (Mar 17, 2009)

I don't think he got hurt, unless maybe he fell off a leaf, but even then, he couldnt have hurt himself that bad you think? I feel so bad for him. I guess at least he isnt in pain.


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## ismart (Mar 17, 2009)

It probally was an infection then. So sorry for your loss  . Unfortunetly we do not yet know the reason for most mantid deaths.


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## Rick (Mar 17, 2009)

ismart said:


> It probally was an infection then. So sorry for your loss  . Unfortunetly these thing happen.


What basis do you have for your infection theory? Many mantids lay hundreds of eggs to ensure at least a couple survive. Little nymphs die all the time. These are fragile insects and you have to accept some deaths.


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## ismart (Mar 18, 2009)

Rick said:


> What basis do you have for your infection theory? Many mantids lay hundreds of eggs to ensure at least a couple survive. Little nymphs die all the time. These are fragile insects and you have to accept some deaths.


I said probally an infection. I dont know for sure. I do know when wide-arms are sick for any reason they deteriorate very quickly and die. They seem to be prone to sickness more so than other species, and feeding them crickets is a bad idear. It does not matter how well you feed your crickets. Wide-arms do not seem to digest them well. When i say this i'm speaking from experience. I now feed mine mostly flies, and have a lot less dieing than when i was feeding them crickets.


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## Tiara (Mar 18, 2009)

ismart said:


> I said probally an infection. I dont know for sure. I do know when wide-arms are sick for any reason they deteriorate very quickly and die. They seem to be prone to sickness more so than other species. And feeding them crickets is a bad idear. It does not matter how well you feed your crickets. Wide-arms do not seem to digest them well. When i say this i'm speaking from experience. I now feed mine mostly flies, and have a lot less dieing than when i was feeding them crickets.


Maybe that is why they are dying? I have been feeding them crickets for the past couple feedings. I thought they were good for them they wouldnt go after baby dubias and they need like ten fruit flies every day or they look really skinny. What should I doo???


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## ismart (Mar 18, 2009)

You need to upgrade to house flies or larger roaches. You could always buy some fly pupea from mantisplace or spiderpharm. Not to mention it's cheaper than buying crickets. What instar are your wide-arms?


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## Hypoponera (Mar 18, 2009)

Hey Rick,

Is there a reason you are so against the idea of infections in mantids? I'm not sure about mantids, but bacterial and fungal infections do occur in other insects. In fact, BT bacteria are used in agriculture to control several species of moth larvae. I also have several cool photos of ant workers that have been killed by fungal infections. If you have some text that states mantids don't get infections and why, let me know as I'd love to read it!


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 18, 2009)

Yeah, Paul. I don't have enough experience to make general statements on these guys, but I lost several of the widearms that I got from you, before changing to mostly flies, and the survivors are doing fine. They also take bees just about as soon as they enter the pot.

And yes, infection has been cited as a cause of death for mantids. In the breeding section of Prete's book (p. 315), D. Yager reports that though not common, "some facilities [labs raising mantids] have lost entire cultures to infections (in some cases, possibly introduced by crickets from commercial suppliers)." Since he works in the U.S., it's something worth bearing in mind.

It _may_ be that widearms have particularly low natural resistance to pathogens carried by American crickets. He also suggests that humidity (but not how much) and cleanliness are two other factors implicated in such infections. Since we don't know the etiology of these diseases and have no cure, the best we can manage is prophylaxis. It would probably be best to kill such mantids to prevent spread of the disease, but since we usually cant be sure... B) 

And before anybody writes in to say that they raised a widearm entirely on crickets, bear in mind that chance is an important factor in who/what becomes infected or doesn't. Remember Typhoid Mary.


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## ismart (Mar 18, 2009)

So sorry Phil  , but thank-you for bringing this to my attention!

I really should have mentioned to you that wide-arms dont do so well on crickets. I will be sure to mention this to all who buy from me in the future.


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## Rick (Mar 18, 2009)

Tiara said:


> Maybe that is why they are dying? I have been feeding them crickets for the past couple feedings. I thought they were good for them they wouldnt go after baby dubias and they need like ten fruit flies every day or they look really skinny. What should I doo???


No it's not. There is not a thing wrong with crickets as long as the crickets themselves are healthy and well fed. There are better foods for some species but the majority can eat crickets no problem. 98% of the mantids I have kept were fed mostly on crickets and that included wide arm mantids. I have had few issues and even fewer related to crickets.



Hypoponera said:


> Hey Rick,Is there a reason you are so against the idea of infections in mantids? I'm not sure about mantids, but bacterial and fungal infections do occur in other insects. In fact, BT bacteria are used in agriculture to control several species of moth larvae. I also have several cool photos of ant workers that have been killed by fungal infections. If you have some text that states mantids don't get infections and why, let me know as I'd love to read it!


Yes there is. I never said they didn't get infections for one. Second, it irks me that as soon as somebody has a mantis issue someone else spouts off it was an infection with literally no proof of that. I bet that the vast majority of these problems are not related to infections at all but most likely to poor/wrong conditions. If you want to say it was an infection then by all means go ahead and do it but make sure that was the actual problem. If not, all it does is scares people into worrying about infections which should be the least of their worries.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 18, 2009)

ismart said:


> So sorry Phil  , but thank-you for bringing this to my attention!I really should have mentioned to you that wide-arms dont do so well on crickets. I will be sure to mention this to all who buy from me in the future.


No problem, Paul! I'll get some more from you if you have any in the near future (I'll PM you).


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## Rick (Mar 18, 2009)

ismart said:


> So sorry Phil  , but thank-you for bringing this to my attention!I really should have mentioned to you that wide-arms dont do so well on crickets. I will be sure to mention this to all who buy from me in the future.


They don't? Based on what? I kept widearms for over a year and guess what was the only thing they ate? You got it, crickets! Nothing wrong with them eating crickets people. Treat your crickets as well as your mantids and you won't have issues.

This wide arm was raised on crickets her whole life and so were several others. Look how sickly she looks!


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## Tiara (Mar 18, 2009)

My babies are 3rd, 3rd and 4th the one that died was 3rd. Now my other 3rd is acting funny. I changed his bedding because if the crickets had a disease or something, i dont want it to kill him. The dudia are bigger than the crickets, so I think they are scared of them. House flys are good though??


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## Rick (Mar 18, 2009)

Tiara said:


> My babies are 3rd, 3rd and 4th the one that died was 3rd. Now my other 3rd is acting funny. I changed his bedding because if the crickets had a disease or something, i dont want it to kill him. The dudia are bigger than the crickets, so I think they are scared of them. House flys are good though??


I guess you do not want to take my advice. If you use crickets get them from a good source (not your local pet store) and feed them good. House flies/bluebottle flies are great however good luck feeding an adult female just on flies.


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## bassist (Mar 18, 2009)

Honestly I think the mantis was just a runt had a few different species do the same thing then they'd just die, though other factors could have caused the death of the wide arm. As I said it just happens I think little to nothing of how a mantis dies or what could have caused it unless the 'black death' is associated.


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## Rick (Mar 18, 2009)

bassist said:


> Honestly I think the mantis was just a runt had a few different species do the same thing then they'd just die, though other factors could have caused the death of the wide arm. As I said it just happens I think little to nothing of how a mantis dies or what could have caused it unless the 'black death' is associated.


Small nymphs are especially vulnerable to death for no obvious reasons. Many like to think they know why but we really don't. I am with you unless it is something obvious I have done wrong. At the end of the day it is just an insect and you cannot expect it to live long.


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## ismart (Mar 18, 2009)

Rick said:


> They don't? Based on what? I kept widearms for over a year and guess what was the only thing they ate? You got it, crickets! Nothing wrong with them eating crickets people. Treat your crickets as well as your mantids and you won't have issues.Based on this being my fifth generation of wide-arms. At one point last year i had 60 of them all in there own seperate enclosures. mainly fed on crickets whitch i feed on gutload cricket food. There water was changed daily. I had begun to lose quite a few wide-arms on a daily basis. The only thing i changed was there diet from crickets to flies. After that the overall survival improved. It's also possible the gutload cricket food i was purchasing may not have proved to be the best food after all. Rick what do you feed your crickets exactly? And do you raise them as hatchlings or store bought? I have actully gone as far as taking crickets completly off my mantid menue. Just for having to many problems. It is a pain though to feed larger mantids on blue bottle flies. My women wont let keep roaches.
> 
> This wide arm was raised on crickets her whole life and so were several others. Look how sickly she looks!


I have also raised wide-arms to adulthood on all but crickets, and have sucsessfully breed them to another generation on crickets. I still did lose quite a few as well to crickets. For a person who only has a few wide-arms i just dont think it's worth the risk. I'm not trying to scare people into not using crickets to feed there mantids. I just think there not the best food for wide-arms.


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## Tiara (Mar 18, 2009)

Rick said:


> I guess you do not want to take my advice. If you use crickets get them from a good source (not your local pet store) and feed them good. House flies/bluebottle flies are great however good luck feeding an adult female just on flies.


Dont take it like that Rick, I am just covering all my bases here. I know they are just bugs, but I really do have an attachement to them as silly as it sounds. I did get the crickets from a pet store, because I tried dubias and they were scared and fruit flies dont seem to fill them. I just want to do what is best for them. I am trying to take what everyone says and make sure my other two stay healthy! You guys are all experts to me here! Any help is good. Im going to try to stay away from crickets, because you said they are what they eat and I dont know what they ate. Maybe my mantids just dont do good on these crickets ( and I went this route before and NO WAY am I breeding those stinky mofos again!!) So I will try the dubia again, I have some other breeds too I will try. But everyone thank you for your help.

PS Adult females... What is good to feed them for future reference?? I feed my larger (IDK what instar) Indo Pacific mantid larger dubia or fuscas. OK??OR NO???


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## bassist (Mar 18, 2009)

Wide arm adult female will take dubias and probably the larger roach species most people say they'll eat anything.


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## Rick (Mar 18, 2009)

Tiara said:


> Dont take it like that Rick, I am just covering all my bases here. I know they are just bugs, but I really do have an attachement to them as silly as it sounds. I did get the crickets from a pet store, because I tried dubias and they were scared and fruit flies dont seem to fill them. I just want to do what is best for them. I am trying to take what everyone says and make sure my other two stay healthy! You guys are all experts to me here! Any help is good. Im going to try to stay away from crickets, because you said they are what they eat and I dont know what they ate. Maybe my mantids just dont do good on these crickets ( and I went this route before and NO WAY am I breeding those stinky mofos again!!) So I will try the dubia again, I have some other breeds too I will try. But everyone thank you for your help.PS Adult females... What is good to feed them for future reference?? I feed my larger (IDK what instar) Indo Pacific mantid larger dubia or fuscas. OK??OR NO???


Thanks. Well if your only source of crickets is a pet store then I understand. I get them online from breeders. In your case once they outgrow the flies go with roaches if you can. The males can probably stay on flies for their entire lives.


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## Tiara (Mar 19, 2009)

Okay guys, Something is fishy around here. I woke up this morning and the other L3 is dead. The L4 is fine. ######????!!!


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## ismart (Mar 19, 2009)

What conditions are you keeping them in?


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## Tiara (Mar 19, 2009)

In a vile with a fake plant leaf for them to hang on with damp paper towel on the bottom. I keep it just damp enough if you were to press your finger on it, it would be damp, but not wet.


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## Rick (Mar 20, 2009)

Tiara said:


> In a vile with a fake plant leaf for them to hang on with damp paper towel on the bottom. I keep it just damp enough if you were to press your finger on it, it would be damp, but not wet.


Vile screams small to me but I may be wrong. Can you post a pic.


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## ismart (Mar 20, 2009)

Rick said:


> Vile screams small to me but I may be wrong. Can you post a pic.


+1

Air flow may not be to good either. A pic would be very helpful.


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## Tiara (Mar 20, 2009)

He has plent of room to hang upside down and molt. I am not sure how to post pics but I will give you the measurements? Maybe that will help?? 3 1/2 tall and 2 diameter. The top is like a plastic rubbery material with about 20 holes drilled into it. The same thing I have my A. formosa nymphs in. If you go to thortonplastics.com (NO www. just type it in like that) it is the 40 dram size, so you can see the pic. If it was ventilation wouldnt it have killed them sooner?? I have had them for about a month??? And, silly question, but doesnt the bigger one need more air?? He is doing fine??!! AHHHHH!!! I seem to be a professional at killing these poor little bugs!!!


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## Hypoponera (Mar 20, 2009)

Your container may be a bit on the small side, but not too bad. And you have plenty of ventilation. How warm are you keeping them? My first attempt with wide arms failed as I could not keep them warm enough! I am not sure of the optimal temp, but I now keep mine at 84-85F and they are doing OK.

And don't take it too badly! We all started as pros at killing these critters too.


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## Rick (Mar 20, 2009)

Tiara said:


> He has plent of room to hang upside down and molt. I am not sure how to post pics but I will give you the measurements? Maybe that will help?? 3 1/2 tall and 2 diameter. The top is like a plastic rubbery material with about 20 holes drilled into it. The same thing I have my A. formosa nymphs in. If you go to thortonplastics.com (NO www. just type it in like that) it is the 40 dram size, so you can see the pic. If it was ventilation wouldnt it have killed them sooner?? I have had them for about a month??? And, silly question, but doesnt the bigger one need more air?? He is doing fine??!! AHHHHH!!! I seem to be a professional at killing these poor little bugs!!!


It sounds too small. One of the best containers you can use are the 32 oz deli cups with the vented lids.


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## bassist (Mar 20, 2009)

Rick said:


> It sounds too small. One of the best containers you can use are the 32 oz deli cups with the vented lids.


Best invention for mantis keeping ever.


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## Rick (Mar 20, 2009)

bassist said:


> Best invention for mantis keeping ever.


Yep. I bought a big batch several years ago and never needed to buy them again. Small species can live their whole life in these while the bigger ones will need to be moved out at some point.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 20, 2009)

Oh my Dear T! the container is too small and close, they need to move around a bit and have some air flow, send me your address dear and I will send u some containers with lids to try them in!


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## Tiara (Mar 24, 2009)

I had them in canning jars, Quart size, and they seemed lost, they hardly ate, it seemed too big? Maybe I just didnt give them enough time to adjust. My larger one is doing fine and so are my A. formosa nymphs. IDK........ I will transfer them to bigger containers today. Thanks guys. Now another question... my ooth that I bought from yensaw hatched sunday. How the heck do I get the little buggers separated?? They are jumping all over the place!!! I havent even tried opening the container. :blink:


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## Tiara (Mar 24, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Oh my Dear T! the container is too small and close, they need to move around a bit and have some air flow, send me your address dear and I will send u some containers with lids to try them in!


LOL its funny that you said T, (Tiara is my puppys name) that is what we call her!!!! I will pm you my adress. Thanks!!


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 24, 2009)

Tiara said:


> I had them in canning jars, Quart size, and they seemed lost, they hardly ate, it seemed too big? Maybe I just didnt give them enough time to adjust. My larger one is doing fine and so are my A. formosa nymphs. IDK........ I will transfer them to bigger containers today. Thanks guys. Now another question... my ooth that I bought from yensaw hatched sunday. How the heck do I get the little buggers separated?? They are jumping all over the place!!! I havent even tried opening the container. :blink:


Yeah, I had an ooth from Yen hatch last week. If it's a big ooth with lotsa babies (mine was Giant Asian) just toss the whole thing, pot and all (if course, it's a good idea to open the pot once it's in the cube!), into one of those 12" butterfly cubes (that you can buy at any American mantis store, like Mantisplace :lol: ) and give them lots of excelsior or raffia to scamper around on. I dump at least one pot of mels in there per day. I check to see if there are any left in the cage, and if not, it's feeding time again!


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## Katnapper (Mar 24, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Yeah, I had an ooth from Yen hatch last week. If it's a big ooth with lotsa babies (mine was Giant Asian) just toss the whole thing, pot and all (if course, it's a good idea to open the pot once it's in the cube!), into one of those 12" butterfly cubes (that you can buy at any American mantis store, like Mantisplace :lol: ) and give them lots of excelsior or raffia to scamper around on. I dump at least one pot of mels in there per day. I check to see if there are any left in the cage, and if not, it's feeding time again!


I disagree with Phil.... &lt;_&lt; I'd *carefully place *it, rather than *toss* it! :lol: And be ready to zip it right back up when they all come pouring out, lol.  Otherwise, I agree! Unzip just a little bit and use a funnel to shovel the fruit flies in. Have fun with all of your little ones.  Oh, a chopstick or wooden skewer is indispensable when wrangling nymphs individually too!


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 24, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> I disagree with Phil.... &lt;_&lt; I'd *carefully place *it, rather than *toss* it! :lol: And be ready to zip it right back up when they all come pouring out, lol.  Otherwise, I agree! Unzip just a little bit and use a funnel to shovel the fruit flies in. Have fun with all of your little ones.  Oh, a chopstick or wooden skewer is indispensable when wrangling nymphs individually too!


O.K. Katt! *Carefully toss* it, though tiny nymphs are much more resistant to the "natural shocks that flesh is heir to," than we give them credit for. Also, when "wrangling nymphs" it's not a bad idea to have a bushy paintbrush handy, too. It's called an oval mop, if you have to buy one, and Michael's has them cheap (thanks for the idea, Mija!). You can use it dry or with a little spit on it to mop up those babies!


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