# the perfect Idolomantis tank/conditions?



## captainmerkin

In the near future I will be coming into possesion of a 70 - 100 gallon aquarium and want to do something funky with it.

I am a huge fan of the idolomantis but failed with my last one so want to try again in future.

at the moment its just in the planning stage but I think I would like to try and breed a load of idolomantis in their almost natural conditions.

I need some facts first to help with the plan!

(I know that breeders advise against keeping mantids together for obvious reasons and also advise against large tanks, however I belive this can work)

Firstly, habitat... what is the idolomantis' natural habitat? (i hear long grass of India and woodland)

Temperature? I would expect daytime around 30 degrees C and nightime 15 - 20 but really have no facts on that.

Humidity, fairly high? (though different breeders advise different things)

60 - 80% at a guess.

Tank will be set up with around 4 inch of top soil planted thickly with grass, there will be a few raises for a rock shelf and one side will be a false wall with a possible small water feature and some back lighting, some creeping fig and wondering jew going up it.

Also putting a small rise in at each end for more "hangy" plants to grow where the mantis can shed etc..

Their natural diet is also something I need to know.. if its butterflies I will buy them in as live food or hatch them for them, if its flies even better I have millions...

Very early planning stages now so let me know any thoughts or answers to what I am missing or wrong with.

thanks as always


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## buddhistsoldier88

I have nothing to contribute facts wise but I support your idea and hope it works! Rick is doing something similar with his mantids and has had quite a bit of success with it if I have my facts right. :lol: Good luck! and keep us posted!!!


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## captainmerkin

I am waiting on the tank to arrive from my parents who inherited it from someone who has kept terrapins for years (they no longer need it as they got so hardy they can even survive british winters outside!*with a pond heater)

First step is getting it planted and walls fitted and lighting, then try and sort out a hood if it does not have one already.. (I think a plant of wood will do the job really)

cant wait to at least get started on it!


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## buddhistsoldier88

Before and after pics? :lol: Thatd be a great idea! Show us the whole process of your home building process! :shock: thats brilliant!


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## captainmerkin

> Before and after pics? :lol: Thatd be a great idea! Show us the whole process of your home building process! :shock: thats brilliant!


don't worry there will be!


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## ThorEH

You're rather way of in a couple of things here!

The Idolomantis originates from Tanzania, in Africa !

And it's a flower mimicry species, so in long grass it's camouflage would count for nothing, so I think you should reconsider your biotop in the tank!


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## captainmerkin

> You're rather way of in a couple of things here!The Idolomantis originates from Tanzania, in Africa !
> 
> And it's a flower mimicry species, so in long grass it's camouflage would count for nothing, so I think you should reconsider your biotop in the tank!


hmmm well thats kind wierd since they are all over the place in goa........ in long grass...

but this is what this thread is for, finding out FACTS and ideas , since I know they are in goa/india...

also I am confused how this mantis can mimic a flower, I have never seen a flower that looks like this before in any ways!

please provide facts and thoughts still it is all good


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## ThorEH

http://ttwebbase.dyndns.org/mantid/view/78.html

I have picked out a quote for you from the first link.

As you can se they are only found in eastern parts of Africa, not Asia.

But perhaps some similar species ?



> Distribution AER: Ethopia, Kenya, Malawi, Somalia, Tanzania, Uganda





> hmmm well thats kind wierd since they are all over the place in goa........ in long grass... but this is what this thread is for, finding out FACTS and ideas , since I know they are in goa/india...


How do you KNOW this ?

http://www.mantis-inc.co.uk/idolomantis.htm

http://www.insectchat.com/general-mantid-d...-live--314.html

http://www.pets-classifieds.co.uk/c62d17466.php



> also I am confused how this mantis can mimic a flower, I have never seen a flower that looks like this before in any ways!


So you have never seen an orchid ? Which is one of the flowers they mimic...







Never seen a flower with these colours before ?


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## captainmerkin

goa because a friend just got back from there and has a ton of pictures of wild idolomantis..

agree that the adults have the colours to match, but not the nymphs

however like I said till I have the tank and can start work on it then this thread is a bit of fact finding so cheers for the links!


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## ThorEH

Here's a picture of a L2 nymph.. pretty much flower colors on them to  

The L1, on the otherhand if often black... But nymphs from L2 and up seems tu mimic flowers


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## Christian

Hi.

_Idolomantis_ is *definitely* from Africa! I do not know exactly, *what* you saw in India, but it was certainly not an _Idolomantis_!

There are, however, other Empusids occurring in India, which may have some potential to be confounded with _Idolomantis_ adults or larvae. First of all, _Gongylus gongylodes_ and the much rarer _G. trachelophyllus_, then _Blepharopsis mendica_ and 1-2 _Empusa_ species.

By the way, _Idolomantis_ does not mimic flowers! The position shown in the photo is the threat pose, also called startling display, and designed to scare a potiential enemy. Flowers are not really scary... The effect works potentially by resembling a large eye, more conservatively seen just by the contrast between the green upper side and the suddenly appearing striking colors. This is also shown in several moths.

Regards,

Christian


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## Asa

> Hi._Idolomantis_ is *definitely* from Africa! I do not know exactly, *what* you saw in India, but it was certainly not an _Idolomantis_!
> 
> There are, however, other Empusids occurring in India, which may have some potential to be confounded with _Idolomantis_ adults or larvae. First of all, _Gongylus gongylodes_ and the much rarer _G. trachelophyllus_, then _Blepharopsis mendica_ and 1-2 _Empusa_ species.
> 
> By the way, _Idolomantis_ does not mimic flowers! The position shown in the photo is the threat pose, also called startling display, and designed to scare a potiential enemy. Flowers are not really scary... The effect works potentially by resembling a large eye, more conservatively seen just by the contrast between the green upper side and the suddenly appearing striking colors. This is also shown in several moths.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Christian


Yes, captainmerkin, there are many similiar species in India, but not Idolomantis.

That is a threat pose, but the Idolomantis does mimic flowers. You can tell that with their designs. They match well with the African grown bulleyflower which is near their 'habitat' or as close as one is for a mantis.


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## Christian

What is a "bulleyflower"? :?


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## ThorEH

I was not saying that it was mimicing a flower in the threatpose, but rather showing the pictures for the purpose of showing the colours on the Idolomantis.

But after what I have read in different places on the internet, they are a flower mimicing species, the english name also "verifies" this ? "African Devil Flower Mantis". The colours they have, are that way to blend in with the conditions where they hunt, and together with species such as p.wahlbergii, c.elongata and b.mendica they do hunt from i.e flowers such as orchids.. Or am I dead wrong ?


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## Christian

Hm... yes...  

The name "Devil's Flower" (and that's the only real one) arose from a misunderstanding of an old author called Sharp, which never saw a living one but got a specimen sent by a collegue together with a description of the threat pose. The misunderstanding was that the threat pose was regarded as the hunting pose, in a way that the mantis should mimic a flower and catch the arriving insects just by flexing the tibia against the femur, say, without the typical mantis strike. In real, all colors are conceiled in the usual mantid hanging pose, and the insects are captured by a normal strike. Despite of the slight pink tinge of L2 larvae and the colors of the adults, there is nothing flowerlike in this species. Dwelling around in bushes and around blooms is observable in all species, as they rest where most prey movements occur. The only real flower mantids, which *search* to rest primarily on inflorescences (but are also found somewhere else), are _Hymenopus, Pseudocreobotra, Creobroter_, _Pseudoharpax_, and some other Hymenopodinae. _Idolomantis_ and _Gongylus_ do hunt in scrubs and bushes, but, as far as I observed, do not explicitely search to rest on flowers. Both live in low savanna or dry forest scrubs and treelets where orchids are rather rare, by the way. :wink:

The only thing that may attract prey is the underside of the prothorax in both species and if this really works has still to be proved. The purple and blue of the forelegs is not seen in the living specimen. On the contrary, despite its size, _Idolomantis_ is rather well camouflaged in dense foliage.

Regards,

Christian


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## Asa

> Hm... yes...  The name "Devil's Flower" (and that's the only real one) arose from a misunderstanding of an old author called Sharp, which never saw a living one but got a specimen sent by a collegue together with a description of the threat pose. The misunderstanding was that the threat pose was regarded as the hunting pose, in a way that the mantis should mimic a flower and catch the arriving insects just by flexing the tibia against the femur, say, without the typical mantis strike. In real, all colors are conceiled in the usual mantid hanging pose, and the insects are captured by a normal strike. Despite of the slight pink tinge of L2 larvae and the colors of the adults, there is nothing flowerlike in this species. Dwelling around in bushes and around blooms is observable in all species, as they rest where most prey movements occur. The only real flower mantids, which *search* to rest primarily on inflorescences (but are also found somewhere else), are _Hymenopus, Pseudocreobotra, Creobroter_, _Pseudoharpax_, and some other Hymenopodinae. _Idolomantis_ and _Gongylus_ do hunt in scrubs and bushes, but, as far as I observed, do not explicitely search to rest on flowers. Both live in low savanna or dry forest scrubs and treelets where orchids are rather rare, by the way. :wink:
> 
> The only thing that may attract prey is the underside of the prothorax in both species and if this really works has still to be proved. The purple and blue of the forelegs is not seen in the living specimen. On the contrary, despite its size, _Idolomantis_ is rather well camouflaged in dense foliage.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Christian


A Bulley-flower appears to be grass, but is actually classified as a flower. The Idolomantis blends in with this grass well, and will use it readily to lay her oothecae on, so basically, it could be considered a 'flower mantis', if not technically.

Nice history lesson


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## Christian

Do you have a scientific name for the "bulleyflower"?

Greetings,

Christian

PS: _Idolomantis_ is an arboreal species, it uses bushes and scrubs in nature. In the terrarium, of course, it has to use what is offered. This may not be equal with the resting places it chooses in the natural environment. The green color of adults greatly refects this, as grass dies out in the dry season whereas bushes stay green most of the time, even if they loose some leaves. Even the larvae are rather leaf than grass mimics. Older _Idolomantis_ larvae have considerable difficulties walking on the even ground - nothing reflects their arboreal lifestyle more than this. Grass species have other adaptations.


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## Asa

Wish I did, but I've forgotten it  :?


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## ThorEH

Well, at least I got right that they're from Africa  

Thanks for splendid information Christian, perhaps you even could answer the Captains question ?


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## Christian

- Big is beautiful regarding _Idolomantis_ cages. The larger the better. They can be kept communally, but should be separated for the adult molt.

- No wire mesh, as the tarsal claws will break off! Just synthetic material.

- Forget the grass, use highly ramified branches or small living or dead treelets. Living plants are dificult to cultivate, though, as they do not well with the rather strong spots needed.

- The T differences should not be high between top and bottom, and around 30-32°C bay day. 20°C by night is ok.

Regards,

Christian


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## captainmerkin

lots of good stuff here thanks all..

I will try and post a picture my friend took in Goa and see what you all think it is as I am 100% convinced its a Idolomantis as it is identical to the large picture posted and same display colours etc..

from what posted before I think that I should try and raise some large branches up into the mid/top of the tank and have some kind of planters there in/on them with hanging plants coming down, probably have these built into the fake cliff wall to give them more support.

will forget the grass and think more of a moss carpet if possible though those temps are a bit high I think for moss, not sure what else would be good as a floor covering plant.

also bushes at the ends will have to be planned out a little better but I am currently sorting out some day lilly cuttings that bulk up fairly well and go up and out with lots of hanging spots (though once again temps too high?)

gorr the ideas are there but tricky to work it out so well, though if it doesnt go according to plan then I would be able to use it for something else I guess.


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## Christian

I do not use plants in the Empusid terraria. The temps are just too high. Although I use plants in most of my other cages. So, plants and _Idolomantis_ are a tricky stuff. Most don't support it. What would go, depending on the cage type, is _Schefflera, Ficus benjamini, Ipomoea_ spec. and _Acacia_ sp. (if available). You don't need plants as ground cover. Bare soil and dead leaves should be enough. Big NO-NOs are mosses, epiphytes, bromeliads and stem succulents. As I said, I do not use living plants in this species.

Regards,

Christian


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## captainmerkin

that my big concern as I really wish to make this tank look awesome, live plants are a must, though obviously thats a whole bloody field of research on its own!

Certainly I am beginning to think that this is going to be very tricky, but certainly some things can be set up nicely still, sand and mud mix and see what I can grown eh..

perhaps certain areas of shade may be a possibility with plants out of direct heat light but still...


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## Asa

There really is no 'perfect' conditions of keeping a mantid of any kind, as perfect is defined likewise by a 0 mortality rate, which, especially with an Idolomantis, is not going to happen.


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## Christian

Well, even in nature the mortality rate is higher than 0%. Most times it is even considerably high. So this is not a good comparison, really. However, the natural conditions cannot be fit perfectly well in a terrarium, but the point is, that they don't have to. You have just to copy those conditions which are important for the respective species.

The mortality in _Idolomantis_ is not higher than in other species - in fact, it is lower than in _Hierodula_  . The reason for the losses I read of here is to be found in wrong conditions, wrong food, and wrong enclosures. I have seen some pictures throughout the forum showing absolutely wrong conditions for _Idolomantis_. In the US especially there is some "tradition" in using small tanks for single specimens. This may work for _Tenodera_, _Hierodula_ and other aggressive species, but Empusids, for instance, do not well if treated like this. Here, larger cages are better. I have written somewhere else that I keep almost all species communally with only a few losses, even adult females. The advantage of a larger enclosure outweighs the risk of cannibalism. I know everyone has his techniques and some may not favor communal breeding. However, I think my success with this species proves me right in this case.

Best wishes,

Christian


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## hibiscusmile

Christian, what would be an acceptable size enclosure for this mantis?


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## Christian

Minimum 30 x 30 x 60 (L x W x H) cm for 15 L1 or 3-4 subadults until the last molt (for the last molt to adulthood the same space is required for one individual). I use at moment two glass terraria with 80 x 45 x 55 cm and 30 x 40 x 100 cm, respectively. I'm going to built a 120 x 30 x 60 cm terrarium of some styrofoam-related but more robust stuff soon. This material isolates better. A collegue of mine also use mini plastic glass-houses of about 150 x 200 x 170 cm. However, an enclosure like this is really huge and not applicable to everyone... :roll:

I propose any enclosure equal or larger than about 50 x 50 x 50 cm.

Regards,

Christian


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## Asa

> Well, even in nature the mortality rate is higher than 0%. Most times it is even considerably high. So this is not a good comparison, really. However, the natural conditions cannot be fit perfectly well in a terrarium, but the point is, that they don't have to. You have just to copy those conditions which are important for the respective species. The mortality in _Idolomantis_ is not higher than in other species - in fact, it is lower than in _Hierodula_  . The reason for the losses I read of here is to be found in wrong conditions, wrong food, and wrong enclosures. I have seen some pictures throughout the forum showing absolutely wrong conditions for _Idolomantis_. In the US especially there is some "tradition" in using small tanks for single specimens. This may work for _Tenodera_, _Hierodula_ and other aggressive species, but Empusids, for instance, do not well if treated like this. Here, larger cages are better. I have written somewhere else that I keep almost all species communally with only a few losses, even adult females. The advantage of a larger enclosure outweighs the risk of cannibalism. I know everyone has his techniques and some may not favor communal breeding. However, I think my success with this species proves me right in this case.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Christian


Yes, Idolomantis do like large containers. What I'm saying, is that not even 'Nature' is completely perfect for the mantis itself. It is benefitted to fit all creatures, not just mantids, so with the varied life forms, is stuck to providing the best it can. In single care, we can do better than Nature. But still not perfect.


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## captainmerkin

very pleased to hear that you are doing well with communally kept mantis, this is how I would like to do things myself!

got to admit that 50- 100 gallon tank does not sound big enough from what you are saying but thats about as big as I can get it without buying a new house

do you think that an oothcaes worth of idolomantis would be able to live (reasonably well at least) in something 50 gal - 100? I will be ensuring that there are numerous hides and hanging areas for them so they will have the option to keep out of each others way


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## Christian

We in Old Europe are just familiar with the metric system. :lol: 

If you tell me how many liters 50-100 gallons are, I can tell you if it's enough.  

Greetings,

Christian


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## ThorEH

I think a US Gallon is app. 3,7 liters, så 100 gallons should then be 370liters.

After your post about Idolomantis community, I'm considering using a 400 liter aquarium as a tank for my 5 Idolomantis, that should be enough ?


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## Christian

Yeah, that should be really enough, as long as the ventilation is sufficient. You maybe have to cut out some of the glass.

Regards,

Christian


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## Asa

> I think a US Gallon is app. 3,7 liters, så 100 gallons should then be 370liters.After your post about Idolomantis community, I'm considering using a 400 liter aquarium as a tank for my 5 Idolomantis, that should be enough ?


So you would like to keep them together?


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## ThorEH

> I think a US Gallon is app. 3,7 liters, så 100 gallons should then be 370liters.After your post about Idolomantis community, I'm considering using a 400 liter aquarium as a tank for my 5 Idolomantis, that should be enough ?
> 
> 
> 
> So you would like to keep them together?
Click to expand...

Yeah, that would be the coolest  

They are now l2, and I keep them together. No problem so far...

Edit : 1 of them moulted today, so 4 are l2 and 1 l3


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## captainmerkin

ok managed to get a picture from my friend of one of the many mantids she found in goa... had to host it elsewhere because of work filters

it was stated that they cannot be idolomantis by christian and thoreh I belive? please identify.


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## Christian

:shock:

Now come on! You're kidding! You don't want to tell me this picture was made in India, don't you! :wink:

I absolutely cannot believe it! The picture really shows an I_dolomantis_ male, but it simply cannot be wild-caught in *India*! No, no, no. Never! :shock: :shock:

Regards,

Christian


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## Djoul

My god... so beautiful

Defenatly, when I will have the money...

I read all the topic, thank you Christian for all the information.

I heard that the blepharopsis breeding is quite the same than blepharopsis ?

Please Christian, what do you think about that ? For me this mantis is a myth, so I can not beleive that... because blepharopsis are not so difficult to breed, and Idolomantis breeding is a legend for french :roll:

Thank you for your response ! :wink:


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## Christian

_Blepharopsis_ and _Idolomantis_ have to be bred differently, though slightly similar regarding container and interior. However, _Blepharopsis_ needs higher temperatures and acccepts a wider variety of food. Breeding _Idolomantis_ mostly fails due to difficulties with getting them paired.

If you can read German, there was an article two collegues and myself wrote about _Idolomantis_ for the "Terraria" journal, maybe you manage to get it in France.

At the moment, I am merely interested in clarifying the status of the specimen from that photo!

Greets,

Christian


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## Djoul

Thank you very much  

let´s talk about the picture ^^

You are not convinced that it is in India ?  

I think too, I never heard that idolomantis are from Asia, but Africa. :?


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## captainmerkin

well I was not there but my friend took this picture whilst on holiday in Goa..

If these are not supposed to be there then perhaps somonee had been breeding them and released some for some reason? And then again the european mantis was introduced to america and has done well..

I am positive that it is an idolomantis and trusting my friend there was a few of them there..

I am not discrediting what you say that they should not be there but still, they are.


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## Christian

Hi.

The point is, that I am not convinced that this species occurs there. This is like discovering wild elephants in the Amazon!

It would have been recorded earlier! Hey, this is _Idolomantis_! A species like this would not remain unrecognized. I have read some publications about Indian mantids, and none even considers the possibility or rumours of this species to occur in India.

For me, the following explanations come into mind:

1. Fraud. Or a joke. I do not know anyone personally, so why should I believe the good old story of a friend of a friend who saw them?

2. A mistake: the photo was taken elsewhere and labelled erroneously. Things like this happen even with specimens.

3. Some jerk released them there. But when? And how? Most people did not really manage to breed them successfully, and the species is in stock only since 2004/2005. This is not enough time to establish a population as large as specimens to be encountered frequently. And I did not sell any to India, a.f.a.i.k. :lol: By the way, introducing a species into a new habitat is not as easy as most people think, particularly considering a difficult species like _Idolomantis diabolica_. However, if this had really happen, the species must have been recorded soon after.

4. The most unlikely, but most sensational case: the species survived unrecognized in that region until now. I do not believe in this, there are some biogeographical constraints that cannot be ignored.

I favour theory 2 until some better proofs are offered.

Regards,

Christian


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## captainmerkin

totally understand all points, but there is very little I can really do to prove it  

I assure you I am not trying to wind you up, make a joke etc..

Perhaps when my friend is back from her latest travels or when I can get in touch I can try and get the name of the place where she saw them if thats any use?

I would generally like to think my friend knows the difference between one country and another but like you say to you this is "a friend of a friends tale" so I cant blame you for being sceptical!

I have heard that idolomantis are very hard to breed so I would be suprised to find they are doing well also, but still dont really know what else I can say other that what I have been told by someone I trust..

till I can get something better for you lets just leave it because we will just go round in circles I think  

still thinking about my project as well, to which I much appreciate the advice!


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