# Adult Creobroter keep dyeing



## Zelthan (Aug 14, 2009)

My creobroter get to the last instar, and become adults , everything looks fine but one or two weeks they just die what can be?


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## ismart (Aug 14, 2009)

How many have died already? What conditions are you keeping them in? What are you feeding them?


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## Zelthan (Aug 17, 2009)

They are keept at 24-29 C temperature changes day/night, 8'-90% humidity, today a female showed up I havent seen a mature female before, they hatched on february, they eat well


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 17, 2009)

Zeth said:


> They are keept at 24-29 C temperature changes day/night, 8'-90% humidity, today a female showed up I havent seen a mature female before, they hatched on february, they eat well


I think that Paul was asking _what_ food you give them. Lots of crickets? Do you feed them the same food as adults that you did as nymphs? Temp and humidity sound O.K.


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## Zelthan (Aug 19, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> I think that Paul was asking _what_ food you give them. Lots of crickets? Do you feed them the same food as adults that you did as nymphs? Temp and humidity sound O.K.


Yea lots of crickets only


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 19, 2009)

Zeth said:


> Yea lots of crickets only


I don't know what's killing your creobroter, but since your temp and humidity seem to be fine, you might want to try revising your feeding regimen. Creobroter sp are flower mantises and ambush predators. What they ambush are flying, pollenated insects, such as small bees, flies, bluebottles and butterflies. Most probably never see a cricket in their lives. A number of breeders on this forum use only flying insects for these mantids, cf http://www.usamantis.com/asianflower_species.html, and I would certainly suggest that you modify their diet to include a preponderance of flying insects. In any event, an unrelieved diet of only one species of prey is never a good thing. Your Creobroter sp may be simply dying of a deficiency of some vital nutrient that is presently not in their diet.

I am not saying that this is the cause of your mantids' deaths, but it is certainly worth checking out.


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## Katnapper (Aug 19, 2009)

If it were me, I'd lessen the humidity a bit.


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## Zelthan (Aug 19, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> If it were me, I'd lessen the humidity a bit.


Thank you very mutch, I try to catch bees, in mexico we dont have bluebottle, (In fact I dont even know them) I lessen humidty too, also they are 7 months old when reaching maturity ,I`ll lowert temp too


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## ismart (Aug 19, 2009)

What are you keeping them in? Could very well be a ventilation issue?


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## Zelthan (Aug 19, 2009)

Hi here is the picture


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## ismart (Aug 19, 2009)

Air flow is deffinetly an issue with those containers. Try and cover the whole top with mesh or netting. That should let more air come through.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 19, 2009)

ismart said:


> Air flow is deffinetly an issue with those containers. Try and cover the whole top with mesh or netting. That should let more air come through.


For sure. Also there is no directional airflow through your container. A lot of people cut a 1" (2.5cm) square hole in the side of the container and fill it with a sponge bung. The idea is to introduce food through it when your mantis is sitting on the lid, but it also gives a while to allow air to circulate through the conatiner. I am increasingly persuaded, partly on the basis of AWOL mantids who do fine with minimal food and no misting, but do have excellent air circulation, that circulation is much more important than we usually realize.


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## Zelthan (Aug 19, 2009)

The black mesh is for air flow do you think an inch diamter hole with mesh is too little?


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 19, 2009)

I think for the size of the cup the hole is fine, but I would give it a bit bigger container, it prob died from boredom.... sorry!


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## ismart (Aug 20, 2009)

Zeth said:


> The black mesh is for air flow do you think an inch diamter hole with mesh is too little?


I would make the whole top diameter of the cup mesh, or netting. It would not hurt to maybe put in a stick or something for them climb on. For nymphs i would put some kind of moisture holding substrate on the bottom to hold more humidity.


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## Zelthan (Aug 20, 2009)

ismart said:


> I would make the whole top diameter of the cup mesh, or netting. It would not hurt to maybe put in a stick or something for them climb on. For nymphs i would put some kind of moisture holding substrate on the bottom to hold more humidity.


They die one week after they become adults


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## ismart (Aug 20, 2009)

Zeth said:


> They die one week after they become adults


Yes i know this. This is also why i'm saying maybe you should change your husbandry a bit. Clearly you are doing something wrong for them to keep dying when they reach adulthood. You should try different things and see what works the best for you. I'm just trying to help you out!


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## jameslongo (Aug 20, 2009)

Adding some honey to their diet &amp; sticks to their enclosures couldn't hurt. Ventilation looks fine to me.


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## Zelthan (Aug 21, 2009)

Thank you very mutch guys tomorrow I use bees with no sting


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## planetq (Aug 21, 2009)

Yeah I was gonna say that I think there is something wrong with giving a Hymenopdidae/flower mantis species an only cricket diet.

Maybe you should try to give them less crickets as possible. Good luck!


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## agent A (Aug 27, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> I don't know what's killing your creobroter, but since your temp and humidity seem to be fine, you might want to try revising your feeding regimen. Creobroter sp are flower mantises and ambush predators. What they ambush are flying, pollenated insects, such as small bees, flies, bluebottles and butterflies. Most probably never see a cricket in their lives. A number of breeders on this forum use only flying insects for these mantids, cf http://www.usamantis.com/asianflower_species.html, and I would certainly suggest that you modify their diet to include a preponderance of flying insects. In any event, an unrelieved diet of only one species of prey is never a good thing. Your Creobroter sp may be simply dying of a deficiency of some vital nutrient that is presently not in their diet. I am not saying that this is the cause of your mantids' deaths, but it is certainly worth checking out.


I disagree, mine love crickets. and they probably are fine with crickets, cricktes climb on plants and creobroter will be in contact with them


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## jameslongo (Aug 27, 2009)

agent A said:


> I disagree, mine love crickets. and they probably are fine with crickets, cricktes climb on plants and creobroter will be in contact with them


A pure cricket diet hasn't been proven to kill anything; they are quite nutritious. My thoughts are now on your cricket husbandry.

Under what conditions are your crix kept? If you get them from a pet store &amp; feed them immediately to your mantids, you're looking at some problems. Pet store crix are usually kept in inadequate conditions, where mould &amp; other nasties can run rampant. Place the crix in another container &amp; feed them on your own food (including Gutload, if possible), then feed your mantids. This will make your crix healthier and, in turn, anything higher on the food chain as well.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 28, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> A pure cricket diet hasn't been proven to kill anything; they are quite nutritious. My thoughts are now on your cricket husbandry.


Absoluite statements, my friend, will get you every time. Check Superfreak's copy of the Prete book, last para on p.313 and over to the next page.

Since we are never sure of our charges' nutritional needs it is a sound practice to give them a variety of foods.

Young Alex, of course, is talking nonsense about crickets being generally available to ambush predators on flowers. Not just flower mantids, but even mantids like Asians and Giant Shields do very well on bees, and Tucker and I usually collect about 16 every morning. I have noticed that if I feed a couple of crickets at about 0900, they are often still alive and well when I check around noon, but a bee is frequently taken within seconds of being placed in the enclosure. This does not speak to one's nutritional value over the other, of course, but it does suggest that a variety of mantids have a predeliction for flying prey.

I know that you can obtain crix in Sidney, which must be particularly useful at this time of the year, but I do recommend that you eschew any store where you see crix exposed to mould and rampant nasties!


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## planetq (Aug 28, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Absoluite statements, my friend, will get you every time. Check Superfreak's copy of the Prete book, last para on p.313 and over to the next page. Since we are never sure of our charges' nutritional needs it is a sound practice to give them a variety of foods.
> 
> Young Alex, of course, is talking nonsense about crickets being generally available to ambush predators on flowers. Not just flower mantids, but even mantids like Asians and Giant Shields do very well on bees, and Tucker and I usually collect about 16 every morning. I have noticed that if I feed a couple of crickets at about 0900, they are often still alive and well when I check around noon, but a bee is frequently taken within seconds of being placed in the enclosure. This does not speak to one's nutritional value over the other, of course, but it does suggest that a variety of mantids have a predeliction for flying prey.
> 
> I know that you can obtain crix in Sidney, which must be particularly useful at this time of the year, but I do recommend that you eschew any store where you see crix exposed to mould and rampant nasties!


Yes, yes, and YES.

That is all...


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## massaman (Aug 28, 2009)

hmm tried the bee thing with my gemmatus before they all died and they had no interest in them what so ever and the crickets they chowed them down like no tomorrow and the other thing was they liked flies and dragonflies more then bees though!I never have humidity in my aparment to have a problem and also use a dehumidifier and my mantids all have had no ill effects!


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## Orin (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm curious how you maintain the 80-90% humidity?



PhilinYuma said:


> Check Superfreak's copy of the Prete book, last para on p.313 and over to the next page. "Since we are never sure of our charges' nutritional needs it is a sound practice to give them a variety of foods."


 Blaming crickets isn't likely to result in a solution to the problem. The statement you quote is at best a guess.


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## Rick (Aug 28, 2009)

Don't know how many times it has to be said. Crickets are not the problem. Mine eat almost nothing but crickets and rarely are there any problems.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 28, 2009)

Orin said:


> I'm curious how you maintain the 80-90% humidity?Blaming crickets isn't likely to result in a solution to the problem. The statement you quote is at best a guess.


At no time have I "blamed crickets." I do stand by my statement, though, that a variety of foods is always a good idea for any captive critter.


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## Rick (Aug 28, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> I do stand by my statement, though, that a variety of foods is always a good idea for any captive critter.


I agree. It can be hard to do however I do try to give variety. If I can't then I give a variety of foods to my feeders.


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## Orin (Aug 28, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> At no time have I "blamed crickets." I do stand by my statement, though, that a variety of foods is always a good idea for any captive critter.


 There are a myriad of insect species where your statement is absolutely wrong (remember your warning about absolute statements?). I'll give you two that are very popular: milkweed bugs and silkworms.


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## agent A (Aug 28, 2009)

well crickets probably climb plants and flower mantids probably will come in contact with one or two in their life and I don't think mantids really know or care what they eat, any moving insect is food to them, and crickets are goats of the insect world, easy to gut-load with nutritious stuff


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## jameslongo (Aug 28, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Absoluite statements, my friend, will get you every time. Check Superfreak's copy of the Prete book, last para on p.313 and over to the next page. Since we are never sure of our charges' nutritional needs it is a sound practice to give them a variety of foods.
> 
> Young Alex, of course, is talking nonsense about crickets being generally available to ambush predators on flowers. Not just flower mantids, but even mantids like Asians and Giant Shields do very well on bees, and Tucker and I usually collect about 16 every morning. I have noticed that if I feed a couple of crickets at about 0900, they are often still alive and well when I check around noon, but a bee is frequently taken within seconds of being placed in the enclosure. This does not speak to one's nutritional value over the other, of course, but it does suggest that a variety of mantids have a predeliction for flying prey.
> 
> I know that you can obtain crix in Sidney, which must be particularly useful at this time of the year, but I do recommend that you eschew any store where you see crix exposed to mould and rampant nasties!


Am I wrong in saying that feeding a mantid nothing but crickets won't kill it? There's no sufficient evidence either way, so I guess it's a draw. I base my statement on the fact that Orthopterans (mantids, phasmids, crickets) are closely related to Blattodeans (cockroaches), which make very good feeders. I whole-heartedly agree with you when you say a variety of feeders is best. At no point did I say that crickets were superior feeders to anything else.

I also agree that the ratio of a mantid's choice between flying and terrestrial feeder insects is skewed in favour of the flyers. I'm not sure why but I have some hair-brained theories.



Rick said:


> Don't know how many times it has to be said. Crickets are not the problem. Mine eat almost nothing but crickets and rarely are there any problems.


Congrats, Rick, on your flawless cricket feeding but you can't just stamp out this suspect in this case. Also, I implore you, give better reasons for your answers than "mine do and that means everyone else's does too."

I realise that you keep your crickets very well, which would reduce the amount of problems you have with them. But for those who buy them from the store and feed them straight away, a problem may rise. Let's face it, most pet stores aren't terribly fussed about the conditions of their crickets: they aren't worth the hassle. The food in the container starts to go mouldy, crickets die in there, it's disgusting. Cricket crawls over &amp; eats infected food/corpse --&gt; it gets infected --&gt; unwary breeder feeds it to mantid --&gt; mantid gets infected... and we know the rest. I speak out of experience (which isn't everyone's) and I have learnt from my mistake.

Crickets could be the problem, or I could be way off. The fact that we haven't heard from Zeph means that we don't have all the clues; thus, final judgements are premature.


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## Zelthan (Aug 29, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> Am I wrong in saying that feeding a mantid nothing but crickets won't kill it? There's no sufficient evidence either way, so I guess it's a draw. I base my statement on the fact that Orthopterans (mantids, phasmids, crickets) are closely related to Blattodeans (cockroaches), which make very good feeders. I whole-heartedly agree with you when you say a variety of feeders is best. At no point did I say that crickets were superior feeders to anything else.I also agree that the ratio of a mantid's choice between flying and terrestrial feeder insects is skewed in favour of the flyers. I'm not sure why but I have some hair-brained theories.
> 
> Congrats, Rick, on your flawless cricket feeding but you can't just stamp out this suspect in this case. Also, I implore you, give better reasons for your answers than "mine do and that means everyone else's does too."
> 
> ...


Hi I`ve been away from pc, well crickets come from a breeder, the gemmatus are 7 month old and some are not even reaching adulthood, My theorie is temp vs age, what do you say?


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