# More problems with same mantis



## Rick

Well that female I discussed in the other thread is having some minor problems. Her top wings for the most part stay slightly spread with her abdomen hanging down between them. We were discussing the black eye spots awhile back and she has developed a few. Her eyes were completely clear before the molt but have developed some of the small black spots. Other then that she is acting normally.


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## Leah

Stick her in the freezer. She is obviously imperfect, why pollute the gene pool unnecessarily. THere isnt anything you can do about how she molted out....


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## Jesse

Leah, I don't believe all or most molting imperfections are a result of bad genetics, most are from an assortment of factors possibly including location of molt, health, environmental conditions, physical stimuli, etc. It is difficult to prove one way or another.


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## Leah

Yes, some physical abnormalities are results of environmental factors, undoubtedly. However, I assume that someone who is trying to breed any live animal has raised them to breeding age, or otherwise is aware of the required environment needed, lowering the effect of environmental influence on the animal and increasing the likelihood that the problem is with the particular animal itself.


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## Jesse

It is easier to blame the animal and not ones self :wink:

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense.


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## Leah

Yes, it certainly is. One of those things most everyone is guilty of in one form or another.


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## DeShawn

I too would not suggest breeding it, but I see no reason to kill it off if it is doing just fine and you want to keep it. I have had a few females like that (mostly T. sinensis) and they lived just fine. I simply chose not to breed them because of the very reasons Leah and Jesse described. There is just no telling exactly what caused the problems.

As for the black spots, I would like to know for sure what causes them. I have heard a few different things, but I believe they are from impact or some kind of direct eye damage (I know... duh). I have a female Lineola that I kept in a kritter keeper with nothing to climb on. She would fall every once in awhile and then I noticed she had a black spot in her eye. The spot got bigger over the next few weeks and when I took a closer look, I noticed it had a dent in it (could have been caused by the black spot, but who knows). She also seems to be partially blind in that eye.


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## Rick

She is fine other than the wing thing and the black spots. I have never seen the spots on anything but an adult and I have not seen any of them rub or hit their eye on anything. SHe was a perfect mantid up until now. Here is how she looks.


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## Birdfly

Hi folks.

I have had both these problems and i believe they were both my fault..

Firstly the floppy abdomen, i reckon that this was caused by the insect spending an unnaturally long time hanging upside down from the cage's screen top. obviously mantids do this naturally but probably dont do it quite as much in the chaos of the wild.Some geckoes suffer from a similar thing called flap tail, were by their tails hang directly down wards instead of staight out behind them [might be calcium deficiency aswell]

Also its exacerbated by the mantid being very full before it sloughs the extra weight and gravity pulling it downwards causing an abnormal fold through the abdominal scute whilst the cuticle is still soft ?.

I also lost some to the reaper, it was as though food could not pass from the crop through the fold and into the gut..i only had this problem with the long bodied tenodera family.

secondly the black spots on the eyes, i never came across this problem until i used tungsten lighting that was used in emergancys as heating. they were probably too close ???

the spots were either in the mantids main, condensed forward vision area or randomly aranged any where else.

This "black eye spotting" was not restricted to species, it effected all types under tungsten but not every individual.

Preventable rather than curable i think.

I dont believe either is a genetics problem, but who knows?


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## Rick

That makes sense. However most captive mantids spend a lot of time hanging from the lid. Seems no matter what you do they always go there. This mantis was perfectly normal all her life. Right before this final molt she developed a kink right behind her wing buds and her abdomen starting hangind down. Now it just stays that way. She also spends a lot of time with either one or both back legs just hanging there not attached to anything. I have also seen chinese mantids with black spots on their eyes in the wild but it never seemed to affect any of them. This mantis just developed them a few days after this molt. Her brother is about to make his final molt. He is from the same ooth so I am waiting to see how he turns out.


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## Birdfly

Allright Rick,

Yeah as i said i've only noticed the "flapping" in the Tenodera family, they have quite long thin abdomens and dont readily hold their abdomens up in the "J" position.Mine deffinatly got this from being over fed to close to a moult and spending to much time upside down[natural to mantids][unnatural amount of time though]they would spend more time moving hunting in wild, instead of meals being handed to them. addressing the feeding might be the only way of preventing it, if in deed thats whats causing it.

No where near as confidant about the black spots though, if your seeing it in the wild [street lights?] doubt it.Have to keep our eyes open.

cheers


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## Rick

Yeah. What you said about possible overfeeding causing the abdomen to hang down makes sense. I do tend to overfeed a bit. Can't help it, it's my favorite part. I love to watch them catch their food. I will wait and see how the sibling turns out.


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## Rick

Well I am happy to report that this mantids sibling (male) has molted and came out PERFECT! He looks great. He was kept under the exact same conditions as the female I was talking about in this thread. So I am not sure why she turned out the way she did. Other than her bad wings and drooping abdomen she is fine.


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## Birdfly

Glad to here it Rick,

Yeh i think its like we said, females having a much bigger appetite and being much bulkier to.Id like to show you some of the shots i took of my T superstituosa's that were affected the same way but cant get them on screen, Doh!

Dont get me wrong though, it still might be sumut else, it just seems logical ????

I have only had it with those 3 species, never sphods or Hiero's or any of the shorter abdomen types.


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