# Pregnant Dead Leaf: Eggs dying inside itself? (with pics)



## Alex 1

Some of you may remember my old dead leaf thread where I was worried about not getting an ooth due to food type issues (dubias and lateralis, fed cat food and occasional fruit). Well, still no ooth, but even worse, it's developed black spots in between it's abdominal segments. I know they're not markings, because they are on the underside, weren't there before, and are irregular in shape. It's even stopped eating for over a week. It barely moves; It can sometimes stay in the same position for over a day. It seems like it's going to die without even laying an ooth, since it's been at least 4 months since it's went adult.

Any thoughts?

Black spots






Side view






With male 1, mated once. The photo only shows mounting, but they did connect.





Male 2, mated 2 more times. I didn't save him from the kiss of death

:twisted:





Lopsided arms from a botched final molt. Before any black spot or inactivity problems.


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## Rick

I've seen the black stuff on the abdomens of older females before but they acted fine. I don't think thats your problem. Sometimes these things just happen and we don't know why. If shes having so many issues I personally would stick her in the freezer for about 15 mins and end it.


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## robo mantis

i never want to kill any of my mantids so just leave he alone feed her and see what happens always worth a try you never know maybe it will turn out


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## Butterflyhornet

I think at one time I had mealworms that had that problem or something like that. I don't know what it could be. My guess, anything from parasites, to fungi, to bacteria, to potentially even viruses.


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## Rick

> i never want to kill any of my mantids so just leave he alone feed her and see what happens always worth a try you never know maybe it will turn out


Well neither do I. But we're not talking about your mantis. Whats the point in letting it slowly waste away? Because thats what is going to happen. They don't normally get better when they look like that. We're talking about an insect here, not a cat or dog.


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## robo mantis

don't know but i still don't like to do it i feel bad for them


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## Rick

> don't know but i still don't like to do it i feel bad for them


I feel worse letting them sit there and taking two weeks to die. But its your choice Alex. I just don't get attached to any mantis because they have short life spans.


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## Jwonni

personally i dont think i'd do it yet BUT i would be willing to do it when she is visibly not happy

With mine she slowed down etc and was getting lower (sitting at a lower point on the back wall) eventually she was resting with her bum on the soil otherwise she would not have been upright at all and i could just not watch her anymore she couldn't move and could barely hold herself up right so i did what i felt and feel was right which was put her in the freezer and get it all over for her

Luckily my other mantids have all been a fine one day then next day just drop dead


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## Alex 1

Good news: I tried to feed her last night and she ate. I use this new technique where I pierce the roach with a needle and thread and leave it dangling in front of her.

However, the above pics are actually a few weeks ago when it was well fed, and the black spots have actually grown a little, but stopped. I'm glad to know it'll still be fine with the spots. I'll post more pics later.

And I'll take that freezer thing as reverse psychology. While it is inactive, it certainly isn't in it's death throes, where a mantis will just stay on it's back after falling over, not trying to get up or struggling doing so, taking quite a few days to actually die. This is probably due to the weather getting colder, which is why I'll try raising the temp and humidity by having a fish tank bubbler and heater at the bottom of the tank, with some grow rocks to keep the water unexposed.

I'll try everything I can to try and save it, not so much for emotional attachment(though I do care), but so that my investment will pay off with at least one ooth, and I can raise this great species again and maybe trade for other species.


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## Rick

Well it sounded like you were saying she was on he way out which is why I suggested ending it. But if she can't catch her own food or anything I think its a losing battle.


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## Alex 1

Yeah, sorry. Bad wording on my part. Her warped arms do screw up her ability to strike properly. She can be looking straight at her prey at a close enough distance to strike, but her arms just go a little sideways naturally. I'd say it screws up her accuracy by about 50%, because she does sometimes get things on the first try and doesn't take more than 3 tries to get something. As a matter of fact, after the final molt, one of it's forearms tips was stuck closed, and I atually had to pull it out a bit for it to regain function.

I'll let everyone know how the temp and humidity raising go. And thanks for all the replies.


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## Alex 1

Oh, and has anyone ever had an adult female go this long(4-5 months) without laying an ooth?


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## Rick

> Oh, and has anyone ever had an adult female go this long(4-5 months) without laying an ooth?


No. She is probably getting eggbound which will kill her.


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## Alex 1

^^^ A depressing yet useful reply. I just looked up that term and it could be for the lack of a suitable laying spot, among other things. I guess I need more twigs. The recent feeding is a good sign though.


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## Rick

That may or may not help. Mantid illness is not fully understood and you have to keep that in mind. GIve it a go and see what happens.


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## yen_saw

Mantis sometimes developed some black spots at the abdomen due to old age too. It is not uncommon. Dead leaf mantis generally needs a good size of enclosure with some branches and dead leaves so to feel "comfy" enough for them to lay ootheca. For me they are really not a "good" captive species if the enclosure is not "well decorated" and large enough for them.


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