# Cannibalistic or Communal?



## superfreak (Nov 23, 2008)

For those out there that have had experience raising large numbers of nymphs together, which species have you found to have the lowest/highest rates of cannibalism?

More specifically, are new zealand nymphs cannibalistic? How long will they tolerate each other for?


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## Rick (Nov 23, 2008)

Pretty much all mantids will eat each other. I do hatch ooths and keep the nymphs together until I am left with a number I can actually manage.


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## idolomantis (Nov 23, 2008)

yeah, although cryptic spieces seem to be less cannibalistic tho.


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## Headspace (Nov 23, 2008)

The last batch of Tenodera nymphs I had started eating one another after the second or third molt. After that, it was guaranteed that they would feed off one another if not kept seperate.

Hope that helps.


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## Kruszakus (Nov 23, 2008)

The least cannibalistic species I've had were... Gongylus gongylodes (easy to obtain as of late), Didymocorypha lanceolata, Idolomorpha lateralis (stochastically extinct), and as of late Thesprotia graminis... which is a bit surprising, because they totally tolerate each other whilst being able to tackle pretty big prey (talk about a mantis thin as a needle grabbing a waxmoth too big even for Gongylus nymphs).


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## superfreak (Nov 24, 2008)

Cool. Thanks guys. I guess ill keep them together for the first month or so and hopefully by then ill have bought some new enclosures


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## shorty (Nov 28, 2008)

Isn't P. paradoxa a relatively communal species?


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## hibiscusmile (Nov 28, 2008)

As* Kruszakus says, those species do well together, the ghost will also do well, but will eat each other if the occasion arises! And the new Zealand, will eat each other in a heartbeat.*


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## Christian (Nov 28, 2008)

All mantids are cannibalistic to a certain degree. I will give you some examples from the top and bottom of the list.

All _Tenodera, Sphodromantis, Rhombodera, Iris, Mantis, Hierodula_ and relatives are rather cannibalistic and have to be housed individually after several molts. Further, _Eremiaphila_ falls under this definition. You won't get them in Australia, but it's good to know...  

Less cannibalistic are most Empusids (_Idolomantis, Gongylus, Idolomorpha, Hypsicorypha_), then _Phyllocrania_ and most of the slender species (_Euchomenella, Angela, Danuria, Thesprotia, Thesprotiella, Hoplocorypha_), even _Deroplatys_ can be housed together until subadult, if containers are large.

As a rule, the larger and structurated your enclosure is, the better you can keep mantids communally in it. You will always have some incidents of cannibalism, but if you use large numbers you will not care about the losses.

Of the Australian species, despite _Mantis, Hierodula_, _Tenodera_ etc., _Archimantis, Sphodropoda_ and relatives are rather aggressive. Less aggressive are the smaller ground- or trunk-living species (_Paraoxypilus, Gyromantis, Ciulfina_ etc.), but they may be more difficult to raise. I don't have personal experiences with _Orthodera_, but I would keep them together in larger cages with living plants inside. This method works even with those species which are regarded by some people as too aggressive to be housed together. If you don't use large terraria, however, better keep them separately.


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## Kruszakus (Dec 2, 2008)

What happened with Hypsicorypha - I'm kinda hoping to breed this species one day. But was it a victim of the infamous "stochastic extinction"? Just like Idolomorpha? Cuz the 3rd generation was totaly infertile, and I'm kinda curious if that's what happened with Hypsicorypha gracilis...


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## Christian (Dec 2, 2008)

No, I ceased to breed them when I got _Idolomantis_. I needed the cage. At that point almost noone had this species anymore, or did not succeed with the ones I sold, so it may be that they got problems. Mines were fine throughout all of the time. I offered a quiescence in winter and had two generations a year. Hypsicorypha weren't much appreciated at that time, as they lack lobes and are beige in color.


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## shorty (Dec 3, 2008)

Kruszakus said:


> What happened with Hypsicorypha - I'm kinda hoping to breed this species one day. But was it a victim of the infamous "stochastic extinction"? Just like Idolomorpha? Cuz the 3rd generation was totaly infertile, and I'm kinda curious if that's what happened with Hypsicorypha gracilis...


What exactly is "stochastic extinction"? I've never heard the term before.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 3, 2008)

shorty said:


> What exactly is "stochastic extinction"? I've never heard the term before.


Bloody good question. It is not in either of my (dumb!) biological dictionaries and I get the feeling that several sources that use it on the internet don't know what it means either. If I get this wrong, anybody, please correct me.

Roughly, a "stochastic model" is a mathematical model based on probability. When you input data into such a model, one of a variety of outcomes may ensue. It is the opposite of a deterministic model where you can predict that a given input will produce a particular outcome. It crops up a lot in weather forecasting, which is why forecasts are often wrong :blink: 

Stochastic extinction usually occurs when the population of a particular species is drastically (a very unquantifiable word) reduced. A good example of this occurs in the South American rain forest, where the habitat of a species is subdivided by logging and clearing into small areas each containing a population that may not be large enough to survive. Sometimes the population survives, sometimes not.

I imagine that Kruszakus (and correct me if I'm wrong, mate) is referring to the extinction of a cultivated species that is raised in captivity from a very small original breeding stock. The captive strain lacks "hybrid vigor" and is prone to extinction, but chance seems to play a part in whether the extinction event occurs or not. A famous example of a situation in which it did not occur is that of of the mutineers from The Bounty, who settled on Pitcairn Island in 1790.

Well, I know that I got that last bit right!


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## cloud jaguar (Dec 3, 2008)

So, basically, there is a chance that a small breeding colony will become inbred and sterile after a couple of generations?


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## Christian (Dec 3, 2008)

No.

What do all you guys have with all the inbreeding stuff?

I think I used the term in some mail. I put it in brackets to ensure it is not used in its normal context. Phil was only partially right. It refers to species which are bred by only one or a few breeders. If it not raised in numbers, it may be that due to multiple factors (most of which can be classified as breeder's fault, though) one particular breeder has only a few adults (and fail to pair them, e.g. because the male(s) is/are eaten) or only one gender left. If no exchange of specimens is possible, he will loose his stock. If this happens to all of the remaining breeders at one time, the species will vanish. This effect only occurs if captive populations are not large enough. One famous example which went this way is _Ceratomantis saussurii_. _Hypsicorypha_ may be loosely put in this category as well, as there weren't many breeders who were interested in it at that time, and most did not succeed. Eventually, the species vanished when I ceased to breed it. However, as a North African species, there is some good chance that it will appear in stock again one day. I kept mines at 40-50° by day in summer, although they came from the Canaries.


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## Kruszakus (Dec 3, 2008)

This sucks - I find Hypsicorypha really interesting and I would love to give it a try one day. Dunno about you, but I like such stuff.

Well - I did not use that term as a refference to inbreeding, just as a way of portraying the situatio when a certain species disappears from the market and it's no longer kept be anyone in captivity.


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## yen_saw (Dec 4, 2008)

Kruszakus said:


> The least cannibalistic species I've had were... Gongylus gongylodes (easy to obtain as of late), Didymocorypha lanceolata, Idolomorpha lateralis (stochastically extinct), and as of late Thesprotia graminis... which is a bit surprising, because they totally tolerate each other whilst being able to tackle pretty big prey (talk about a mantis thin as a needle grabbing a waxmoth too big even for Gongylus nymphs).


Watch out, Thesprotia graminis is in no way as communal as Gongylus.


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## Kruszakus (Dec 4, 2008)

yen_saw said:


> Watch out, Thesprotia graminis is in no way as communal as Gongylus.


I did not say they were.

So far they have been very tolerant - is their cannibalism more of a problem once females turn adult?


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## yen_saw (Dec 7, 2008)

Kruszakus said:


> The least cannibalistic species I've had were... Gongylus gongylodes (easy to obtain as of late), Didymocorypha lanceolata, Idolomorpha lateralis (stochastically extinct), and as of late Thesprotia graminis... which is a bit surprising, because they totally tolerate each other whilst being able to tackle pretty big prey (talk about a mantis thin as a needle grabbing a waxmoth too big even for Gongylus nymphs).


Your post here does sound like you categorized them the same level..... I have kept all those species you mentioned above and they are not on the same level of cannibalism (No mantis is communal!)

As for T. graminis, cannibalism can occur through out all stages, not only when female mature into adult.


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## Kruszakus (Dec 9, 2008)

yen_saw said:


> Your post here does sound like you categorized them the same level..... I have kept all those species you mentioned above and they are not on the same level of cannibalism (No mantis is communal!)As for T. graminis, cannibalism can occur through out all stages, not only when female mature into adult.


That was not my intention. I was just a it surprised that a non-Empusidae can tolerate each other so well - with a lot of food and some space they seem to do just fine.


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## sk8erkho (Dec 23, 2008)

Yeah. thats about right about these guys. my nephew and i use to sit there and watch them go at it. I know it seems cruel but by the time we knew what was going on it had already begun!!!! this was the first time I had to incubate an ooth and made the mistake of incubating them in a 15gal. tank. they did well at L1 but at L2 and up it was every mantid for itself!!! There would be mantid parts left all over the place. We hot glued a screen all around the walls of the tank for them to perch on and would find arms, legs, HEADS and such just hanging in the screen. We'd find them attacking each other for the mantid they had already began to eat. One little dude would yak another and begin eating it and just as it got it's mandibles in there here comes another little dude and grabs the partially eaten mantid from the first one. We'd see this going on all over the place as well as them knocking each other off of their perches. One would get comfortable and here comes another and would run up or jump over and knock the other off of it's place and vice verse!!!! Funny little dudes!!!!


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## Christian (Dec 23, 2008)

Feeding them helps a lot...


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## Kruszakus (Dec 23, 2008)

Christian said:


> Feeding them helps a lot...


This plus a lot of space - Idolomorpha and Gongylus would sometimes attack molting nymphs - when it gets crowded, things usually get ugly pretty fast.


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