# How to stop a mantis from vomiting?



## ZoeRipper (Jan 6, 2010)

Well, I posted a thread about it a few days ago, one of my mantids was vomiting.

And it's started again.

I changed his/her food source, and it's still pukin'.

Any ideas?

I have no idea how to stop this.

I put him in a different cup and lid, and the brown gunk has started showing up again.

Help?


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## ismart (Jan 6, 2010)

Give it some water because by now it's probally dehydrated. Take it out of the cup and place on a house plant or put it in a net cage for better ventilation. Don't feed it for the next few days. Hopefully it won't puke anymore if it's not to far gone.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 6, 2010)

ismart said:


> Give it some water because by now it's probally dehydrated. Take it out of the cup and place on a house plant or put it in a net cage for better ventilation. Don't feed it for the next few days. Hopefully it won't puke anymore if it's ot to far gone.


I think that this is the best advice I have seen on this topic! Some folks blame this on feeding crix, but since you are only feeding ffs, that is obviously not the case here. Also, don't blame yourself for doing "something wrong"; that isn't the case at all. Maybe it has mantis bulimia or is just trying to get (even more) attention. Do you spend more time with the nymph that likes to pose for pix? Take more pix of this one. Maybe that will help.


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## charleyandbecky (Jan 6, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> I think that this is the best advice I have seen on this topic! Some folks blame this on feeding crix, but since you are only feeding ffs, that is obviously not the case here. Also, don't blame yourself for doing "something wrong"; that isn't the case at all. Maybe it has mantis bulimia or is just trying to get (even more) attention. Do you spend more time with the nymph that likes to pose for pix? Take more pix of this one. Maybe that will help.


You know, it's funny but I had one mantis that vomited and carried on all the time. He lived to be over 10 months old but was always hypochondriac-ing (is that a word?) about something. My personal belief was that he was a total pig when it came to eating...always overdid it and ate too fast. I did give him more water than probably necessary because I worried about dehydration. He was a real attention hog and seemed to carry on more when he wasn't the center of attention.

Rebecca


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## ZoeRipper (Jan 6, 2010)

Phil: Hahaha! I giggled at "Mantis bulimia". Maybe I should give it more attention, it's name is Brutal. Maybe I'll give it a.. Sweeter name?

ismart: Thanks! I'll do just that, although I think I may have just drowned him! (Totally kidding.)

Becky: That reminds me of that movie, Madagascar, with the hypochondriac giraffe, Melman? Have you seen it? OH it's hilarious.


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## Rick (Jan 6, 2010)

There really isn't much you can do when an insect is ill.


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## massaman (Jan 7, 2010)

+1

I had one of my very first chinese mantis adult females who had that and she lasted maybe a week or 2 before she died cause of that condition and my only guess could be it was maybe something in the guts of the insects that the mantis was eating or maybe some kind of microbes or bacteria but no one knows what causes this!


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## edenmantis (Jan 11, 2010)

Hello,

Please follow Phil's advice : kill all your mantids and try another hobby like collecting tie clips for instance. I'm having the same problem with all my mantids which are dying from vomiting and diarrhoea. According to Phil, that cannot be due to any germ affecting the mantids which contaminate each other (thereby contradicting my vet's viewpoint). He thinks that such a hypothesis is stupid and he advises better crickets husbandry to solve the problem... He thinks that we are stupid and it is very easy to avoid the problem of mantids dying from vomiting. Phil is a worldwide respected scientist...

Regards,

Oliver


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## revmdn (Jan 11, 2010)

edenmantis said:


> Hello,Please follow Phil's advice : kill all your mantids and try another hobby like collecting tie clips for instance. I'm having the same problem with all my mantids which are dying from vomiting and diarrhoea. According to Phil, that cannot be due to any germ affecting the mantids which contaminate each other (thereby contradicting my vet's viewpoint). He thinks that such a hypothesis is stupid and he advises better crickets husbandry to solve the problem... He thinks that we are stupid and it is very easy to avoid the problem of mantids dying from vomiting. Phil is a worldwide respected scientist...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Oliver


Wow, tell us how you really feel there.


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## ismart (Jan 11, 2010)

Zoe, any update? Is the mantis still alive?


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## ismart (Jan 11, 2010)

edenmantis said:


> Hello,Please follow Phil's advice : kill all your mantids and try another hobby like collecting tie clips for instance. I'm having the same problem with all my mantids which are dying from vomiting and diarrhoea. According to Phil, that cannot be due to any germ affecting the mantids which contaminate each other (thereby contradicting my vet's viewpoint). He thinks that such a hypothesis is stupid and he advises better crickets husbandry to solve the problem... He thinks that we are stupid and it is very easy to avoid the problem of mantids dying from vomiting. Phil is a worldwide respected scientist...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Oliver


I deffinetly missed something? :lol:


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## edenmantis (Jan 11, 2010)

ismart said:


> I deffinetly missed something? :lol:


Hello,

Yes, you did miss something : a topic about "vomiting" that has been erased from the "Food and Feeding" section of this forum, in which Phil stated that I was the only stupid breeder to have trouble with my mantids vomiting, that the idea of a germ causing cross-contamination (suggested by a vet !) was foolish, and that the key to the problem lied in crickets husbandry only. He concluded writing that I would have more success collecting tie clips than breeding mantids.

Regards,

Oliver


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## massaman (Jan 11, 2010)

maybe you should ask phil to apologize for that old statement perhaps?


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## ZoeRipper (Jan 11, 2010)

Yes, the mantis is still alive, barely. He's not lookin' so good. But alive.

Oliver: I don't know what you're talking about. Phil has always been sweet and kind to me. I suggest you take your teen girl drama somewhere else, and that's coming from a teen girl! ( :lol: )


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## ZoeRipper (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh dear. I just checked on him again and uh... He's dead. ######. Well! Never fear, he donated his body to science! And I'll have a look-see under the microscope later.


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## edenmantis (Jan 11, 2010)

Hello,

Good idea. Please keep us informed.

Thank you,

Oliver


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## edenmantis (Jan 11, 2010)

ZoeRipper said:


> Yes, the mantis is still alive, barely. He's not lookin' so good. But alive. Oliver: I don't know what you're talking about. *Phil has always been sweet and kind to me*. I suggest you take your teen girl drama somewhere else, and that's coming from a teen girl! ( :lol: )


Hello,

Well, I guess that's because you're a cute teen girl. I am a "declining" 38-year-old male lion !

Kind regards,

Oliver


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 11, 2010)

ZoeRipper said:


> Yes, the mantis is still alive, barely. He's not lookin' so good. But alive. Oliver: I don't know what you're talking about. Phil has always been sweet and kind to me. I suggest you take your teen girl drama somewhere else, and that's coming from a teen girl! ( :lol: )


No. Zoe, I wasn't sweet and kind to poor Oliver, who, after asking for advice on this forum and receiving a lot of good suggestions from Rick and others, explicitly dismissed them in favor of his vet (!), who said, I believe , that the mantis will live or die, and his brother's pathologist who will test his mantids' stool for, among other things, "viral infection"(!)

As you have discovered, mantids, like other insects, can malfunction in ways that confound us and that would kill the insect in nature. When you start reading books on entomology, you will find that no one is funding research on mantis maladies and that therefore, there is no scientific information on them. Initially, Oliver described an isolated case that appeared to have nothing to do with infection, but subsequent information suggested that it certainly is.

Most of us, including Rebecca and Rick, who gave suggestions in this case, usually only have isolated cases of premature mantis death. Oliver is unusual in that he is experiencing an epidemic. Whether an epidemic occurs in a town, hospital (very common!) or bug room, human error, i.e. bad husbandry, is almost always to blame. Bacterial infections, particularly, are virtually always due to conditions that allow bacterial contagion. Frederick Prete summarizes this nicely in his _The Praying Mantids_: "Disease can pose a threat, and some facilities have lost entire cultures to infections (in some cases, possibly introduced by crickets from commercial suppliers). Disease is unusual, however, and reasonable cleanliness, moderate humidity, and quarantine of new arrivals will minimize risk." p.315.

Most of us can neither afford nor need the luxury of a culture, though it might point the way to avoiding a repetition of the problem, and we sometimes endanger our healthy stock by keeping a mantis alive that should probably be destroyed. In Oliver's case, destruction of his entire stock and sterilization or replacement of all equipment is probably the best way to proceed. This, obviously, does not apply to you and your isolated case, and I seriously doubt that your little guy carries an infectoion.

So there you have it. I must admit, though, that I regret suggesting to Oliver that he start collecting tie pins. He lives in a country that boasts the supremely collectible Limoges china.....


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## ismart (Jan 11, 2010)

ZoeRipper said:


> Oh dear. I just checked on him again and uh... He's dead. ######. Well! Never fear, he donated his body to science! And I'll have a look-see under the microscope later.


I'm sorry Zoe.  I guess it was to late. In the future if you find one of your mantids start to vomit. Take it out of it's enclousure and place it somewhere the ventilation is good. Give it some water, and don't feed it for awhile. I have manged to save quite a few mantids this way.


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## idolomantis (Jan 11, 2010)

Also on this forum, i see, Oliver  

You just don't give up, do you?


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## charleyandbecky (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm sorry about your mantis, Zoe.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 11, 2010)

ismart said:


> I'm sorry Zoe.  I guess it was to late. In the future if you find one of your mantids start to vomit. Take it out of it's enclousure and place it somewhere the ventilation is good. Give it some water, and don't feed it for awhile. I have manged to save quite a few mantids this way.


+1


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## ZoeRipper (Jan 11, 2010)

Thank you all for your help, and in the future should any of my other mantises start vomiting, I will most definitely act ALOT sooner, and I'm sorry for not helping poor Brutal sooner.

You all really do have good advice.

Phil: Stool testing? Viral infection? Pathology? Sounds like SOMEBODY is l-y-i-n-g!


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## edenmantis (Jan 11, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> No. Zoe, I wasn't sweet and kind to poor Oliver, who, after asking for advice on this forum and receiving a lot of good suggestions from Rick and others, explicitly dismissed them in favor of his vet (!), who said, I believe , that the mantis will live or die, and his brother's pathologist who will test his mantids' stool for, among other things, "viral infection"(!)As you have discovered, mantids, like other insects, can malfunction in ways that confound us and that would kill the insect in nature. *When you start reading books on entomology, you will find that no one is funding research on mantis maladies and that therefore, there is no scientific information on them.* Initially, Oliver described an isolated case that appeared to have nothing to do with infection, but subsequent information suggested that it certainly is.
> 
> Most of us, including Rebecca and Rick, who gave suggestions in this case, usually only have isolated cases of premature mantis death. Oliver is unusual in that he is experiencing an epidemic. Whether an epidemic occurs in a town, hospital (very common!) or bug room, human error, i.e. bad husbandry, is almost always to blame. Bacterial infections, particularly, are virtually always due to conditions that allow bacterial contagion. Frederick Prete summarizes this nicely in his _The Praying Mantids_: "Disease can pose a threat, and some facilities have lost entire cultures to infections (in some cases, possibly introduced by crickets from commercial suppliers). Disease is unusual, however, and reasonable cleanliness, moderate humidity, and quarantine of new arrivals will minimize risk." p.315.
> 
> ...


I guess you have not read the right books... I cannot let you spread the idea that "...no one is funding research on mantis maladies and that therefore, there is no scientific information on them."

*Example of a thorough book about insect pathology (568 pages) *:

_The principles of insect pathology_

Auteur(s) : BOUCIAS

Date de parution: 08-1998

Langue : ANGLAIS

568p. 22.9x15.3 Hardback

Etat : Disponible chez l'éditeur (délai de livraison : 10 jours)

Résumé

Principles of Insect Pathology, a text written from a pathological viewpoint, is intended for graduate-level students and researchers with little background in microbiology and in insect diseases. The book explains the importance of insect diseases and illuminates the complexity and diversity of insect--microbe relationships. Separate sections are devoted to + the major insect pathogens, their characteristics, and their life cycles + the homology that exists among invertebrate, vertebrate, and plant pathogens + the humoral and cellular defense systems of the host insect as well as the evasive and suppressive activities of insect disease agents + the structure and function of passive barriers + the heterogeneity in host susceptibility to insect diseases and associated toxins + the mechanisms regulating the spread and persistence of diseases in insects. Principles of Insect Pathology combines the disciplines of microbiology (virology, bacteriology, mycology, protozoology), pathology, and immunology within the context of the insect host, providing a format which is understandable to entomologists, microbiologists, and comparative pathologists.

Sommaire

Preface. 1. Insect-Pathogen Relationships. 2. General Features of *Viral Disease Agents*. 3. Major Groups of *Insect Viruses*. 4. Baculoviruses. 5. Characteristics of the Pathogenic Prokaryotes. 6. Insect Pathogenic *Bacteria*. 7. Bacillus Thuringiensis: Producer of Potent Insecticidal Toxins. 8. General Properties of *Fungal Pathogens*. 9. Entomopathogenic Fungi: `Perfect' Phyla. 10. Entomopathogenic Fungi: Fungi Imperfecti. 11. Insect *Pathogenic Protozoa*. 12. Phylum Microsporidia. 13. Insect Immune Defense System, Part I: Innate Defense Reactions. 14. Insect Immune Defense System, Part II: The Recognition of Nonself. 15. Insect Immune Defense System, Part III: Prophenoloxidase Cascade and post-Attachment Processes of Phagocytosis

Thèmes :

* Productions animales - elevage - peche / Zoologie, entomologie

I work in research on human diseases. As models for human diseases, we use genetically modified mice. The mice we work on are kept in two kinds of animal facilities : one is called "conventional facility", the other is named "SPF" (specific pathogene free) facility. In the conventional animal facilities, *whatever the care provided to the mice and the precautions taken*, we now that sooner or later, our mice will be contaminated, and the rate and of contamination will increase with time, leading not only to the deaths of individuals and sometimes to the loss of a whole lineage depending on the degree of pathogeneity of the germ, but also to what we call "scientific bias" (interference of a pathogene agent upon the results of an experiment).

On the other hand, mice can be kept in "SPF" facilities. In those facilities, the animals get in via embryonic transfer, which is THE guaranty to get germ-free mice. But in order to keep the germ-free status of our animals, A LOT of state-of-the-art machinery is used (the animals are NEVER exposed to the air, they are manipulated under "vertical air-flow changing stations" (see picture) according to very strict proceedings that the staff have to respect (I will not give full account of all these procedings, for that would take 4 pages), the mice are kept in closed cages put on ventilated racks, the airflox is filtered throuh "HEPA" (High Efficiency Particulate Absorbing) filters,...

All that to point out that whatever care is provided to ANY captive-bred animal, the contamination will just be delayed or limited, but there will come a time when the mantids WILL be contaminated by a pathogene and die (some of them might already have died from a disease, but you did not think about it as it was an "isolated case). So you can pride yourself of having apparently healthy mantids at the moment, your mantids WILL die from diseases one day or another, so much so as mantids are insects that eat other insects (sometimes belonging to the same _Orthopteroidea_ genius, thereby increasing the risks of cross-contamination as the closer the species, the higher the risks that some germ may infect and develop in both species). Whatever the care you treat your husbandry with, the idea that your insects will never be contaminated is pure imagination and mere illusion. "reasonable cleanliness, moderate humidity" will work for some time, but NOT forever.

Regards,

Oliver



Mice air-flow station. The animals are NEVER exposed to the air :







*Airtight-closed cageing system* :






*Cages on an air-ventilated rack equipped with "HEPA" filters *:


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## edenmantis (Jan 11, 2010)

idolomantis said:


> Also on this forum, i see, Oliver  You just don't give up, do you?


Who said I would "give up" ? Not me.


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## revmdn (Jan 11, 2010)

Idolomantis, something we should know? :huh:


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## idolomantis (Jan 11, 2010)

revmdn said:


> Idolomantis, something we should know? :huh:


Yes, actually.

This guy has been on other forums aswell, starting arguements. He left there and now he's here to do the same.

He left because people wouldn't agree with his ideas, people who have been doing this for many years.


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## ismart (Jan 11, 2010)

I know this is going to sound strange. I have a theroy. Of course i have no facts and scientific proff to back this up, but here it goes. I have come to the conclusion this is not a form of diease that can be passed from insect to insect, but rather a form of rot. I have noticed only very fat mantids will vomit a day later after eating more than it can handle. I believe the vomit is decomposing food that the mantid was not able to digest and absorb in a timely fashion. This would also acount fo the horrible smell. The thing that gets me is i'm able to simulate this at any time with _Rhombodera sp._, and _P. wahlbergii_.


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## ZoeRipper (Jan 11, 2010)

ismart: That is very interesting! I'd suggest experimentation but I don't wanna upset your mantises.

Idolo: thank you for the warning!

Edenmantis: If you are here to start arguments I suggest you leave. Also, I'll take experience from people who've been keeping mantids for years rather than some guy who just joined and what the hellfire do mice in cages have to do with vomiting mantids?


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## revmdn (Jan 11, 2010)

idolomantis said:


> Yes, actually.This guy has been on other forums aswell, starting arguements. He left there and now he's here to do the same.
> 
> He left because people wouldn't agree with his ideas, people who have been doing this for many years.


Thanks for the info.


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## edenmantis (Jan 11, 2010)

ZoeRipper said:


> Thank you all for your help, and in the future should any of my other mantises start vomiting, I will most definitely act ALOT sooner, and I'm sorry for not helping poor Brutal sooner. You all really do have good advice.
> 
> Phil: Stool testing? Viral infection? Pathology? Sounds like SOMEBODY is l-y-i-n-g!


Not a lie, not a joke. Stool testing is called "coproculture". If one day you suffer from gastro-intestinal symptoms (which I wish you NOT), you GP may ask you to take a sample of your stool and take it to a lab. Besides, insect pathology DOES exist (bacteria, viruses, fungi, protozoans). It is a common subject in entomological research, the goal being to find germs or toxines produced by germs that could be passed from a "harmless" insect to an insects considered as "pest". Each year, 1/3 of the worldwide crops (agricultural production) is eaten by insects !

Regards,

O.


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## edenmantis (Jan 11, 2010)

ismart said:


> I know this is going to sound strange. I have a theroy. Of course i have no facts and scientific proff to back this up, but here it goes. I have come to the conclusion this is not a form of diease that can be passed from insect to insect, but rather a form of rot. I have noticed only very fat mantids will vomit a day later after eating more than it can handle. I believe the vomit is decomposing food that the mantid was not able to digest and absorb in a timely fashion. This would also acount fo the horrible smell. The thing that gets me is i'm able to simulate this at any time with _Rhombodera sp._, and _P. wahlbergii_.


A very interesting analysis.


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## ZoeRipper (Jan 11, 2010)

edenmantis said:


> Not a lie, not a joke. Stool testing is called "coproculture". If one day you suffer from gastro-intestinal symptoms (which I wish you NOT), you GP may ask you to take a sample of your stool and take it to a lab. Besides, insect pathology DOES exist (bacteria, viruses, fungi, protozoans). It is a common subject in entomological research, the goal being to find germs or toxines produced by germs that could be passed from a "harmless" insect to an insects considered as "pest". Each year, 1/3 of the worldwide crops (agricultural production) is eaten by insects !Regards,
> 
> O.


I'm perfectly aware that stool testing is real, but to test mantis stool is purely STUPID. Honestly, besides you, who else on the forum sees their mantis vomiting, and thinks "Holy beaten prostitute, Batman! I better find one of their tiny poops and call all the vets around and see who'll test it!"? I sure don't. Also, I don't appreciate you telling us all that it's inevitable for a mantis to die of illness. You're obviously trollin' and I suggest you STOP.


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## edenmantis (Jan 11, 2010)

idolomantis said:


> Yes, actually.This guy has been on other forums aswell, starting arguements. He left there and now he's here to do the same.
> 
> He left because people wouldn't agree with his ideas, people who have been doing this for many years.


Yes, especially when I disagreed with the fact that moulting was influenced by humidity rate, and I had to post pictures showing my mantids had moulted successfully at only around 35% humidity, and yet 2 breeders did not believe me ! Or when I observed several successful matings with my freshly moulted _Hymenopus_ females (4 to 10 days after their final moult), and I showed them the empty spermatophore I had found (THE evidence that successful mating did take place in spite of the young age of the females), and yet, they said I was "nuts" or a liar. Not that people would not agree with my ideas as Idolomantis put it, but they would not agree with the facts I brought to their eyes. So I said to myself that I was not going to bring them evidence that I am not a mythomaniac by asking for a psychiatric assessment and posting it on the forum (anyway, I'm sure they would have questioned the authenticity of the paper) . That's why I decided to quit this forum. So I repeat, the problem did not lie in some people not agreeing with my opinions (which everyone is free to do as an opinion does not necessarily reflect the truth, and so it CAN be questioned), but in some stubborn people not believing what their eyes could see. Am I to blame for that ???

Now, if my presence of this forum annoys, please let me know, and I'll leave the forum. Anyway, if I feel that I am perceived as being too controversial, I will leave the forum by myself, so please do not worry.

*Freshly moulted Deroplatys desiccata. Humidity 23% *:






*Moulting female Hymenopus coronatus *:






*Successful moulting afew minutes later. Humidity rate : around 35% *:








Mating pair of _Hymenopus coronatus_ Male aged 17 days, freshly moulted female aged 7 days, taking place at dusk:








Spermatophore found in the morning :


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## edenmantis (Jan 11, 2010)

ZoeRipper said:


> I'm perfectly aware that stool testing is real, but to test mantis stool is purely STUPID. Honestly, besides you, who else on the forum sees their mantis vomiting, and thinks "Holy beaten prostitute, Batman! I better find one of their tiny poops and call all the vets around and see who'll test it!"? I sure don't. Also, I don't appreciate you telling us all that it's inevitable for a mantis to die of illness. You're obviously trollin' and I suggest you STOP.


Who are you, you, brainless little teen girl, to say that I'm stupid and to order me to STOP ??? Do you think I have lessons to receive from a stupid teen like you who knows nothing about life ? I am a 38-year man with a doctorate in English literature and a master's degree in biology. So shut you effing mouth, take your teddy bear, and go to bed.


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## edenmantis (Jan 11, 2010)

ZoeRipper said:


> I'm perfectly aware that stool testing is real, but to test mantis stool is purely STUPID. Honestly, besides you, who else on the forum sees their mantis vomiting, and thinks "Holy beaten prostitute, Batman! I better find one of their tiny poops and call all the vets around and see who'll test it!"? I sure don't. Also, I don't appreciate you telling us all that it's inevitable for a mantis to die of illness. You're obviously trollin' and I suggest you STOP.


I don't care what you appreciate or not. Who do you think you are to talk like this ? The Queen of England ? As a famous person , you'd rather remind me of Paris Hilton.


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## Katnapper (Jan 11, 2010)

Edenmantis, I think you are needlessly insulting and argumentative to anyone who disagrees with you. Please take your childish drama elsewhere, as it's not appreciated here. And yes, I am older than you. I also have a BA in English, but it didn't teach me to think my views are any better than anyone else's on here. Your behavior here is coarse, arrogant, and pitiful, considering your age and academic achievements.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks again, Idolo. This one is the nastiest troll that I can remember on this forum. I don't know how to cure his mantids' "infection", but I do know how to cure his particular infection. Isolation is the key, and I shall start in just a moment.

Zoe: You have nicer pets than the Queen of England and are both cuter and brighter, I believe, than Ms. Hilton. Don't waste your time!  

Wow Oliver! What are the odds against that! I, too have a PhD in English (dissertation: A "prophetic" reading of the iconography in Blake's Vergil woodcuts, NWU) but only a measly BS in biology (UICC). What fun we could have had!


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## Peter Clausen (Jan 14, 2010)

Deleted the worst in this post. Edenmantis was banned as stated in the post below:

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?s=...st&amp;p=122658

Now re-opening the topic out of consideration for the people that took the time to reply. Nice to see members sticking up for each other and in a respectful way!

Thanks for your patience as we worked through the muck.


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## sufistic (Jan 14, 2010)

Wow, I feel really bad for inviting him over to this forum. I sincerely thought that we could learn from his breeding and rearing experiences even though it might contradict the opinions of other members here. I never expected him to react in such a rude and childish manner.

My sincerest apologies to everyone in this forum, especially Zoe and Phil, for inviting him over.


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## revmdn (Jan 14, 2010)

Not your falt sir. You can't control the actions of others.


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## ismart (Jan 14, 2010)

edenmantis said:


> Yes, especially when I disagreed with the fact that moulting was influenced by humidity rate, and I had to post pictures showing my mantids had moulted successfully at only around 35% humidity, and yet 2 breeders did not believe me ! Or when I observed several successful matings with my freshly moulted _Hymenopus_ females (4 to 10 days after their final moult), and I showed them the empty spermatophore I had found (THE evidence that successful mating did take place in spite of the young age of the females), and yet, they said I was "nuts" or a liar. Not that people would not agree with my ideas as Idolomantis put it, but they would not agree with the facts I brought to their eyes. So I said to myself that I was not going to bring them evidence that I am not a mythomaniac by asking for a psychiatric assessment and posting it on the forum (anyway, I'm sure they would have questioned the authenticity of the paper) . That's why I decided to quit this forum. So I repeat, the problem did not lie in some people not agreeing with my opinions (which everyone is free to do as an opinion does not necessarily reflect the truth, and so it CAN be questioned), but in some stubborn people not believing what their eyes could see. Am I to blame for that ??? Now, if my presence of this forum annoys, please let me know, and I'll leave the forum. Anyway, if I feel that I am perceived as being too controversial, I will leave the forum by myself, so please do not worry.
> 
> *Freshly moulted Deroplatys desiccata. Humidity 23% *:
> 
> ...


I don't understand what this had to do with the topic? Who said it was impossilbe for a mantis to moult in such low humidity? It's possible alright, but i would never risk one of my tropical mantids moulting in such low humidity. At some point a mantis is going to moult no matter what the humidity is like. I do believe they can hold out moulting for a bit if the humidity is not favorable.

Oh, and trying to pair mantids less than a week after reaching adulthood is not a good idear. In most cases the male will either be attacked or eaten. Not recommended!


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## ismart (Jan 14, 2010)

sufistic said:


> Wow, I feel really bad for inviting him over to this forum. I sincerely thought that we could learn from his breeding and rearing experiences even though it might contradict the opinions of other members here. I never expected him to react in such a rude and childish manner.My sincerest apologies to everyone in this forum, especially Zoe and Phil, for inviting him over.


Don't sweat it Sufistic! You did not know things would get out of hand? It would have been a fun debate if he could have acted his age! Roar!!!! :lol:


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## yen_saw (Jan 14, 2010)

Not sure if this is true but happened to me once and i have never fed mantis freshly pupate fly (blue bottle or house fly) again. After a chat with Chuck he told me that soon after pupating flies will discharge 'waste' from their body stored during the pupa stage, i had two orchid mantis feeding on it and puke the day after. I have never 'tested' it on other species of mantis but prefer to believe it :huh:


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## ZoeRipper (Jan 14, 2010)

Peter: Thank you so much! To you and all the staff!

Sufistic: Don't apologize, you didn't know he'd go batpoop insane.

Phil: Thank you very much :lol: 

Yen: That's a very interesting idea.. Perhaps that was what's wrong!


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## massaman (Jan 14, 2010)

I was referring to the comment about the tie clips not anyone elses comment mind you!


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## ismart (Jan 14, 2010)

yen_saw said:


> Not sure if this is true but happened to me once and i have never fed mantis freshly pupate fly (blue bottle or house fly) again. After a chat with Chuck he told me that soon after pupating flies will discharge 'waste' from their body stored during the pupa stage, i had two orchid mantis feeding on it and puke the day after. I have never 'tested' it on other species of mantis but prefer to believe it :huh:


I have heard this from somewhere before. I usally wait two days after the flies mature to feed them to my mantids. Thats only one of the reasons i wait a couple of days, not to mention gut loading the flies before being served. Some good info there yen!


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## Katnapper (Jan 14, 2010)

yen_saw said:


> Not sure if this is true but happened to me once and i have never fed mantis freshly pupate fly (blue bottle or house fly) again. After a chat with Chuck he told me that soon after pupating flies will discharge 'waste' from their body stored during the pupa stage, i had two orchid mantis feeding on it and puke the day after. I have never 'tested' it on other species of mantis but prefer to believe it :huh:


Hmmm.... I had not heard this before. And due to a rather long shortage of flies, I just fed some freshly eclosed house flies to some of my mantids this morning.... as the pupae had finally started eclosing, and I was in a rush to give some of the ones who wouldn't accept hand feeding cut up roaches some food. I had already started seeing cannibalism in one of the cages and didn't want to wait. I hope all will be OK. I think I'll wait a couple of days after the shortage crisis is over from now on.

But what about when people put the pupae directly in the mantids cages to hatch? This isn't the way I normally do it, but I have done it before.


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## ismart (Jan 14, 2010)

Katnapper said:


> Hmmm.... I had not heard this before. And due to a rather long shortage of flies, I just fed some freshly eclosed house flies to some of my mantids this morning.... as the pupae had finally started eclosing, and I was in a rush to give some of the ones who wouldn't accept hand feeding cut up roaches some food. I had already started seeing cannibalism in one of the cages and didn't want to wait. I hope all will be OK. I think I'll wait a couple of days after the shortage crisis is over from now on.But what about when people put the pupae directly in the mantids cages to hatch? This isn't the way I normally do it, but I have done it before.


your mantids should be fine. I have done the same in a pinch. What species were you feeding them to anyway? Try to keep in mind when a mantis eats wild flies there also eating the shiznit the flies have been eating all day. Yum!  

I never realized so many people were putting the pupae in the enclosures for them to eclose for there mantids to eat on there own. The only way i would do something like that is if i were to go away for a bit.


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## 3.1415926 (Jan 14, 2010)

If it is a bacterial infection from poorly kept crickets, the infection is almost always incurable and fatal.


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## Katnapper (Jan 14, 2010)

ismart said:


> your mantids should be fine. I have done the same in a pinch. What species were you feeding them to anyway? Try to keep in mind when a mantis eats wild flies there also eating the shiznit the flies have been eating all day. Yum!  I never realized so many people were putting the pupae in the enclosures for them to eclose for there mantids to eat on there own. The only way i would do something like that is if i were to go away for a bit.


My Gongys, Texas Unicorns, Orchid males, Congo nymphs, and a couple of Boxers.


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## yeatzee (Jan 14, 2010)

ismart said:


> I never realized so many people were putting the pupae in the enclosures for them to eclose for there mantids to eat on there own. The only way i would do something like that is if i were to go away for a bit.


No need to worry about escapee's..... toss in a few and they hatch in the enclosure and the mantids eat them.

Very simple and effective


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## ismart (Jan 14, 2010)

Katnapper said:


> My Gongys, Texas Unicorns, Orchid males, Congo nymphs, and a couple of Boxers.


I would just keep an eye on the orchids. The Gongys should be fine, and the Texicorns. I don't know about the others.



yeatzee said:


> No need to worry about escapee's..... toss in a few and they hatch in the enclosure and the mantids eat them.Very simple and effective


Simple and effective, yes! Boring? yes! One of my most favorite things about htis hobby is whatching them catch food, and eat.


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## ZoeRipper (Jan 14, 2010)

ismart said:


> One of my most favorite things about htis hobby is whatching them catch food, and eat.


Whenever it's mantis feeding time, the whole family usually comes to watch and recently have started to bet on who will catch a fly first.


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## BellsBird (Jan 14, 2010)

I'm sorry to burst in and bring up that Oliver fool again, but I'm a pubescant thirteen year old girl-- and i act better than that on this forum!!! Maybe some people just has to "prove their false superiority" to make themselves feel good. Gosh that makes me mad! Yeesh!

And I'm sorry about your mantis Zoe


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## yeatzee (Jan 14, 2010)

ismart said:


> Simple and effective, yes! Boring? yes! One of my most favorite things about htis hobby is whatching them catch food, and eat.


Its not like I only toss in a few pupae. I add large amounts and there are always some in the container..... like I said earlier its not like they die instantly if not eaten. Believe me, I love feeding my mantids and watching them eat, but transfering eclosed flies to containers is a pain  Plus, I only have two mantids who eat BB's so its not a big deal. They are so fat that they dont eat much anyways  

The nymphs on the other hand.....


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## BellsBird (Jan 14, 2010)

yeatzee said:


> Its not like I only toss in a few pupae. I add large amounts and there are always some in the container..... like I said earlier its not like they die instantly if not eaten. Believe me, I love feeding my mantids and watching them eat, but transfering eclosed flies to containers is a pain  Plus, I only have two mantids who eat BB's so its not a big deal. They are so fat that they dont eat much anyways  The nymphs on the other hand.....


With the fly thing, try putting them in the freezer for five minutes. Then when you take them out they'll _look_ like they're dead...But it's a cunning deception! They'll start twicthing back to life within the next sixty seconds, and by then you'll have dumped then in with the mantis, and won't they have a rude awakening! but don't forget the flies in the freezer! (but if you do...Try putting salt on them. Though that may only work if the flies are drowning....)


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## fatal_mantis (Jan 15, 2010)

Sorry about you mantis Zoe.


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