# Pre-sub to Sub-adult Idolomantises



## Colorcham427 (Sep 6, 2010)

So I had 8 pre-sub adults. All have recently molted to sub adult, finally! I was told the wait for final stage is even longer! :angry: 

I had 4 out of 8 molt on the side of the screen cage, where their legs got crippled and eventually fell off. This is NOT making me happy! :angry: 

I am thinking about putting very thin plastic around the sides of the screen cage so they cannot get on the sides, just in case they begin to molt on the sides...

They have plenty of real twigs in their screen cage, plus the screen is perfect for them to grip. I witnessed one molt to sub-adult the other night on the ceiling of the screened cage and he/she came out beautifully.

I really do have a strong feeling that they get a little uncomfortable molting from the side angel just because of their weight and size, not to mention their odd shapes.

Have any of you weighed an Idolo? Pre-sub? Sub-adult? Adult?

As of now I have 2 beautiful Sub-adult males and females, and one sub-adult female that is only missing one back foot.

The other three are missing both of their back feet. I put those ones in their own little net cage.

I also placed a crumbled up layer of paper towels on the bottom of the screen cage just because if they fall it isn't such a hard fall...

Please let me know your experience, any advice is greatly appreciated. This is that one species that makes me bananas, I really want some perfectly formed adults!!!


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## Colorcham427 (Sep 10, 2010)

gee... thanks to all those people who keep Idolos!!!


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## LauraMG (Sep 10, 2010)

:lol: They've been a touchy subject recently! I think there's only a few people who have been successful thus far though.


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## guapoalto049 (Sep 10, 2010)

Mine just molted to L3, I should pre-order Rogaine for when my hair starts coming out around L7


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## Colorcham427 (Sep 10, 2010)

guapoalto049 said:


> Mine just molted to L3, I should pre-order Rogaine for when my hair starts coming out around L7


LOL! I am thinking this species is just a very hardy species UNTIL it hits a certain weight. Once the mantid itself is bigger, it'll weigh a lot more and the molting becomes more of an obstacle for it.


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## Schloaty (Sep 10, 2010)

I just got mine, and the first just made L3.

However, I think you're right about the weight thing.

For me, I use screen tops on my cages, and I never had a problem with any moltings until the mantids got heavier.

For example, I had five ghosts molt to adult easily (they're slender)...

However, both females fell...

So now, when my mantids get larger, I will use a glass top (along with plastic sides) so they have no choice besides using the sticks/ fake plants I have in their cages.


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## Colorcham427 (Sep 10, 2010)

Schloaty said:


> I just got mine, and the first just made L3.
> 
> However, I think you're right about the weight thing.
> 
> ...


Sounds good, but I was thinking leaving the screen top and just have some twigs coming across from the sides...

Plastic on the sides is my first choice. Getting them to adjust to just use the twigs and ceiling. Having my Idolos never relying on the sides is my goal. Side molting is a disaster with larger Idolos from my experience with them.

These guys do get really big lol. Love it!!!

I have one sub-adult now that is so close to molting, her wing stubs are nice and detailed.


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## guapoalto049 (Sep 10, 2010)

Brian Aschenbach said:


> Sounds good, but I was thinking leaving the screen top and just have some twigs coming across from the sides...
> 
> Plastic on the sides is my first choice. Getting them to adjust to just use the twigs and ceiling. Having my Idolos never relying on the sides is my goal. Side molting is a disaster with larger Idolos from my experience with them.
> 
> ...


Yeah this first week and a half has been good, they eat very well and are fun to watch. They look almost as big as my subadult ghost lol at L3. Please keep us posted on how the plastic sides work out for the subadult


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## Andrew (Sep 11, 2010)

Built a 5x4 screen cage and filled it with branches. Kept them outside in a shady part of the yard during a large part of the summer. Fed them plenty of bees, houseflies, other critters of that sort. Took the hose and showered them down a couple of times per week. By the time they hit subadult, winter started setting in, and I didn't prepare properly. Ended up losing all of them.

These were from Yen's stock, so I can't speak for any other locale, but they were pretty straightforward to keep - Warm to hot days, relatively cool nights, some humidity, good airflow and flying prey.


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## guapoalto049 (Sep 12, 2010)

Andrew said:


> Built a 5x4 screen cage and filled it with branches. Kept them outside in a shady part of the yard during a large part of the summer. Fed them plenty of bees, houseflies, other critters of that sort. Took the hose and showered them down a couple of times per week. By the time they hit subadult, winter started setting in, and I didn't prepare properly. Ended up losing all of them.
> 
> These were from Yen's stock, so I can't speak for any other locale, but they were pretty straightforward to keep - Warm to hot days, relatively cool nights, some humidity, good airflow and flying prey.


Have many molting problems in the large cage? (I'm assuming in was 5x4 feet)


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## Andrew (Sep 12, 2010)

There were almost no molting problems at all. Yes, 5x4 feet.  

Maybe I'll try and get some new photos of the cage later, can't seem to find any on my computer at the moment.


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## Andrew (Sep 13, 2010)

Here it is. I ended up adding more branches and stuff to it later.






This is what I kept them in when they were younger. The Butterfly Pavillion from Insect Lore.


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## Colorcham427 (Sep 14, 2010)

Andrew said:


> Here it is. I ended up adding more branches and stuff to it later.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some strains are simply hardier than others.

I believe I have had 3 different batches, WC ooths. I try my best to buy them at L1, I do love watching the dramatic change from jet black to white/purple/pink/tan colors! LOL

One batch, out of 18 of them, only 1 mis molted. They all were huge right out of the L1 skin.

Second batch, out of the 10 of them, 4 of them mis molted. And they were much smaller and ate flies a whole lot slower.

Third batch, out of 11 of them, 9 of them are very small, yet very active and good eaters.

I recieved 3 sexed pairs of L5's a few months ago. One out of the 6 arrived dead.

Out of all of them, only 2 have molted to sub-adult without any issues.

These mantids seem to fall a lot and break their legs. Then, they have trouble molting...

Appears to me that some are just stronger than others.

Being WC oothecae, I am sure there are parasites effecting some of the growing larvae inside of the ooths. Possibly, robbing their nutrition? Making them weaker specimens once they emerge into the real world...

I honestly hope those who love this species do NOT give up, we MUST get them going. Once in culture, CB specimens should be much healtheir coming out of the healtheir ootheca.

What are your thoughts on this guys?


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## Colorcham427 (Sep 14, 2010)

Andrew said:


> Built a 5x4 screen cage and filled it with branches. Kept them outside in a shady part of the yard during a large part of the summer. Fed them plenty of bees, houseflies, other critters of that sort. Took the hose and showered them down a couple of times per week. By the time they hit subadult, winter started setting in, and I didn't prepare properly. Ended up losing all of them.
> 
> These were from Yen's stock, so I can't speak for any other locale, but they were pretty straightforward to keep - Warm to hot days, relatively cool nights, some humidity, good airflow and flying prey.


When you say you hosed them down? Did you literally mimic a rain-like spray on to them? I thought this species NEEDED IT TO BE EXTREMELY DRY?

I always mist a very light sprinkle to the floor of their cages for the blue bottle flies to drink from... Should I mist their cage more to help them shed?

I have been told by so many experienced keepers to keep it dry as possible... !!!??? You seem to have done well man. Sorry about the winter cool killing them!


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 15, 2010)

I disagree on keeping cb vs wc, they will never be healthier then where God placed them to be, we cannot give them same quality of food no matter what we do.


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## Colorcham427 (Sep 15, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> I disagree on keeping cb vs wc, they will never be healthier then where God placed them to be, we cannot give them same quality of food no matter what we do.


I hope you mean god as in mother nature.

WC = parasites, how can you even put CB as less healthy? Maybe they are getting a much different source of vitamins etc. through sun light plus different foods for different insects, but still, getting CB animals of all sorts if always better than WC. Just think about it, it is common sense.

As for the god thing... lol sorry it just bothers me people still believe in such a fairy tale!


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## ismart (Sep 15, 2010)

Too many pros, and cons to consider. Nature is still the better care giver in my opinion.


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## Andrew (Sep 15, 2010)

Brian Aschenbach said:


> When you say you hosed them down? Did you literally mimic a rain-like spray on to them? I thought this species NEEDED IT TO BE EXTREMELY DRY?
> 
> I always mist a very light sprinkle to the floor of their cages for the blue bottle flies to drink from... Should I mist their cage more to help them shed?
> 
> I have been told by so many experienced keepers to keep it dry as possible... !!!??? You seem to have done well man. Sorry about the winter cool killing them!


Yep. The shower-nozzle function worked quite well.  

If I recall correctly, Christian said that there were two different varieties of Idolomantis; a highland one, and a lowland one. Apparently most if not all WC oothecae come from one of the varieties, and the stock that Yen had came from a different one? I think that's how it went.

Anyways, I remember looking up weather charts for the area - I think it was Arusha, but I can't say for sure anymore - and I saw a decent amount of rainfall. Christian also stressed a proper circadian rhythm, and I believe mentioned a temperature drop at night. Now, my group did not have a perfect record when it came to molting, but it wasn't any more of an issue than with any other species of mantis I kept. I honestly don't know if increasing humidity would help you or not, but if you're suffering a lot of losses, then it may not be a bad idea to try tweaking your system a bit. You'll notice in the second picture if you look closely that they are inside of a greenhouse. They had warm to hot days and cool, humid nights in there. They grew very fast under these conditions with plenty of houseflies and honey bees to eat. I never once fed my Idolomantis a ground-crawling insect.

What worked for me may or may not work for you. It seems this species can just be finicky and unpredictable sometimes. I would suggest finding out where your stock originated if you don't already know and looking up weather charts for that area.


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## angelofdeathzz (Sep 15, 2010)

Brian Aschenbach said:


> I hope you mean god as in mother nature.
> 
> WC = parasites, how can you even put CB as less healthy? Maybe they are getting a much different source of vitamins etc. through sun light plus different foods for different insects, but still, getting CB animals of all sorts if always better than WC. Just think about it, it is common sense.
> 
> As for the god thing... lol sorry it just bothers me people still believe in such a fairy tale!


Hey Brian are you always so arrogant? couple days ago you said I should respect Rick when I was joking with him, now you insult Rebecca's(and many other people's) beliefs!

you need to think about it, your mantis think your God so why couldn't there be something watching us in are little cage called earth.

you are nowhere near as smart as you think you are. so grow up and show some respect! and you owe her a apology.

as for the arrogant thing... sorry it just bothers me when people are so arrogant!


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 16, 2010)

Brain everyone has their own opinions, and I am glad my God bothers you! He sent his only son to die on the cross for you, So it is good that you think of him, no matter what way it is, you at least acknowledge that there is one just by saying his name, and btw, it is written: Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

and hope is born of God, so you hoping I ment something else is "hopeful" to me to  :tt2:


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## lancaster1313 (Sep 16, 2010)

> As for the god thing... lol sorry it just bothers me people still believe in such a fairy tale!


 Statements like that can give other non believers a bad name.  It is just rude and disrespectful.


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## Colorcham427 (Sep 16, 2010)

Sorry for being such an arrogant jack-butt.


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## Colorcham427 (Sep 16, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> I disagree on keeping cb vs wc, they will never be healthier then where God placed them to be, we cannot give them same quality of food no matter what we do.


All in all they are much better off in captivity than the wild. The only thing that we can not mimic is their diet. Specifically what their favorite foods eat.

How have they evolved to use that sort of nutrition to help them?

CB vs. WC

In the wild, mantids will most likely eat insects of all sorts, who knows every species but we can get an idea by observing them in the wild and figuring out what is most abundant in that region. All we can do is rely on folks that are cool enough to take their time to observe them. These are mostly collectors, exporters, etc. In my opinion, observing them in the wild would but a serious thrill!!!  

Their instinct. Looking out for predators, how stressed are they really in the wild if they are attacked every few days? Do they keep a journal? Memory, or just gut instinct thru evolution.

Providing them a secure home, even though they do not feel secure because they are always looking over their shoulders, they are safe. They do not have to experience the traumatic situations they deal with in the wild. Birds, rodents, fighting for survival, fight a prey item if they underestimate it's power, etc.

We don't disturb them when they shed. (In the wild, I am sure there are tons of mantids that become food just because they became crippled from mis molting due to a heavy wind, or rain, or being attacked by a predator.

It doesn't rain, blow winds nor anything else for that matter when they are mating in our homes that we provide for them.

Mantids seem to do best on flying insects such as house flies, blue bottle flies,bumble bees, honey bees, moths, even wasps.

Most of us do that. We provide them with the best of our knowledge. What helps them thrive to the best of their ability is our goal.

Although, there must be something in the wild, that their prey eats or gets that we do not know of yet. Something that benefits them. Hopefully we will get an idea.

Example: The Idolomantis just appears to have trouble molting as an older, larger, heavier mantid. Some strains have trouble molting as L6+ while others are eating machines and molt quicker than others. All of this, is in my experience. However, their ooths can hatch up to 100! This is probably why they do exist, having an average of 60 nymphs make it out of a fertile ooth, and 7-10 adults survive, few mate. Who really knows.

Possibly they take longer in the wild to get to adult hood? How much food do they really have available? Do these gems hide out from predators most of the day? Do they hang in the shade just because it gets so damn hot?

Maybe they do not get as much food as we provide them, so they take longer periods between molts.

Maybe a lot of my pre-sub adults mis molted because they were over fed prior to molting? Maybe a few of them feel from the top because they were feeling weak from being over fed? I have no idea. But I do want to test more and more pre-subs with their consumption of food.

Also, how many species of mantids are IMPOSSIBLE to raise in captivity?

I only know of 1. So far... The Moss mantis, not sure the scientific name. It is the mantid that literally is covered in exoskeleton material that mimics moss?

By the way, I edited this a few times. I don't have much time as I wish on here because this is my fourth hobby.

And now that I slept on it, I do apologize for being such a jerk. Rebecca's comment should have never bothered me as much as it did, who am I to dismiss other's beliefs. I am sorry Rebecca.


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## angelofdeathzz (Sep 17, 2010)

I read your unedited post and I'm glad you slept on it and change the whole thing.




but hey in the end you opened your mind a little and did the right thing.  

guess your OK in my book after all.


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## lancaster1313 (Sep 17, 2010)




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## sporeworld (Sep 27, 2010)

Coming into the discussion late, but yeah - I had a lot of mis-molts with my adult idols. I had 3 beautiful specimens that fell with their wings about 3/4 expanded. Wasn't sure what happened, until i watch my last female molting. I wathced her go from a great grip on a perfect perch, to slipping her grip one foot at a time. It was excrutiating to watch! Her entire weight ended up hanging by the shell of ONE tiny leg. It all ended well, but it was an hour long nail-biter! My guess is, the others had similar predicaments, but also had to contend with flies buzzing around - maybe seeking their revenge! (ha).

That girl, in particular, was about 2 weeks behind her siblings. It seemed noteworthy, that she was one of the few I allowed to eat crickets, and she gorged on them. Bloated, she took close to a week without eating before she molted - like she had to shed the weight first. Seemed really odd.


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## guapoalto049 (Sep 28, 2010)

Nice little chart I found with the weather from Musoma, Tanzania. This is where my Idolos came from (IGM 198). Don't know much about what time of year the generations come about, but its interesting nonetheless.

Musoma weather reports


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## Colorcham427 (Oct 2, 2010)

That is a kick-butt chart of info.!!!  

Maybe they need a much lower temp. at night to sleep????

95 degrees is a big difference from 105.

Average of 80 is huge from an average of 95 .


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## guapoalto049 (Oct 2, 2010)

Brian Aschenbach said:


> That is a kick-butt chart of info.!!!
> 
> Maybe they need a much lower temp. at night to sleep????
> 
> ...


Thanks, the whole Idolo thing just bothers me so I started doing research on their home. Some interesting things I thought were the avg low temps in the mid 60s, and the highs don't get crazy hot either. I'm trying to keep conditions as near to these as possible, around 80-85 during the day at 50% humidity, then dropping to 70 at night at 60% humidity.


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## LauraMG (Oct 2, 2010)

guapoalto049 said:


> Thanks, the whole Idolo thing just bothers me so I started doing research on their home. Some interesting things I thought were the avg low temps in the mid 60s, and the highs don't get crazy hot either. I'm trying to keep conditions as near to these as possible, around 80-85 during the day at 50% humidity, then dropping to 70 at night at 60% humidity.


The thing is, that's not too far off of standard room temperatures and humidity. I hope it works


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## guapoalto049 (Oct 2, 2010)

Laura G said:


> The thing is, that's not too far off of standard room temperatures and humidity. I hope it works


Yeah kinda weird huh? Well the rainy season is Mar-Apr-May, so I'm thinking this is when the adults are around. Apparently there is a burst of green foliage in Tanzania during this time, so the mantids have most likely evolved to match this. All Idolos I've seen pictures of change from drab brown subs to bright green adults without any changes in habitat (i.e. I'm assuming its genetic). I keep my shields in monarch cages and put them over a pan of water at night, which increases humidity for the cage pretty well. I'll either do this or use a glass aquarium when my Idolos get older.


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## nebrakacinese (Oct 3, 2010)

good morning every one,i hope i dont overstep my bounds being a newbie.in my way of thinking God gave these mantdids to nurture ,enjoy,and take care to the best of our ability.Recently i ordered a african lineola and im very thrilled about it.My only regrets when it comes to mantids i did;nt do it early in the year.And i really don't wantno one's eye's to fall out ha ha.last night i lost one of my favorite chinese females,the somberness i feel is strong.Today i'm going to the locale, where there is many carolinas and try to find some more females who've hadnt laid yet,because if i do something each day that,has to do with mantis's i alway feel better.may everyone have a blessed day and enjoy your mantids


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## hibiscusmile (Oct 3, 2010)

You still have some to play with right?


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## Precarious (Oct 24, 2010)

guapoalto049 said:


> Nice little chart I found with the weather from Musoma, Tanzania. This is where my Idolos came from (IGM 198). Don't know much about what time of year the generations come about, but its interesting nonetheless.
> 
> Musoma weather reports


Great info! Thanks!

The funny thing is I've been raising mine at these conditions nearly exactly and it's been working well. Just had my first molt to L6 with no problems.

PLEASE, everyone keeping Idolos, take note of the relative humidity on that chart. I know I'm always harping on humidity, but it is key to healthy molts. Of course they need to have feet too!

Lately when I see they stop taking food I've been putting mine into deli cups I set up specifically for molting. The screen lid is covered in thin twigs and there are leaves to one side in case they need to step off the old skin. The L6 had legs long enough to reach over he old skin to the molting surface! Man, their legs get long after that molt.

For L7 they will need to step off the old skin and flip right side up to inflate the wings. Make sure you have a lower perch available or they may try to climb up the old skin and fall. I've watched this with Violins molting to adult and they are about as close physiologically to Idolos as we can get. The Idolos main issue when molting is the widened claws. Once they clear that the final obstacle is rotation to allow for wing inflation. Make sure you give them what they need to do this safely.

Of course, I'm only a n00b, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.


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## Colorcham427 (Oct 25, 2010)

I was thinking the same thing, most adults probably molt correcting during the rainy season. I've been told by a few more experienced breeders over seas that keeping them humid past L4 is the best thing you can do for them. Still use screen, still relocate them to a much wider holed mesh once they are getting to large L4s, but keep that paper towel on the floor wet.


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## Precarious (Oct 25, 2010)

It's been an Idolo molt fest over here the past few days:

My last molt to L4, two more molts to L5 and another perfect molt to L6.

Here is the new L6...


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## guapoalto049 (Oct 25, 2010)

Nice pics. My triplets should be molting to L6 soon, they look like they're gonna pop with so many bluebottles in em. I've heard some members say they are not food aggressive, though I see the opposite. Perhaps its a different IGM #? Anywho they are amazing so far.


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## Precarious (Oct 25, 2010)

guapoalto049 said:


> Nice pics. My triplets should be molting to L6 soon, they look like they're gonna pop with so many bluebottles in em. I've heard some members say they are not food aggressive, though I see the opposite. Perhaps its a different IGM #? Anywho they are amazing so far.


Mine are very aggressive eaters. They were taking bluebottles at L1!


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## sporeworld (Oct 25, 2010)

Beautiful! I've never missed a species so much.


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## paddythemic (Dec 1, 2010)

I think it's possible that the wire screen is slippery when they weigh more, no?

Does anyone use mosquito netting, or any kind of fabric net? It's worked for me up to pre-sub so far...

Also - can they successfully do the last molt without flipping upright, ie can they complete the molt from hanging upside down?


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## Precarious (Dec 1, 2010)

paddythemic said:


> Also - can they successfully do the last molt without flipping upright, ie can they complete the molt from hanging upside down?


I don't see how you could prevent instinctual drives. Mantids use gravity to assist in the entire process. Flipping upright enables the blood to flow more easily into the wings to form properly. I've been told that adult Idolos with imperfect wings seldom mate.


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## sporeworld (Dec 1, 2010)

I don't see how they could. They need to inflate the wings properly.


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## lion (Dec 21, 2010)

Has anyone thought of using hessian. It should give them some awesome grip.

Just dont put it into the washing machine if you haven't stiched the sides over.


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## lion (Dec 21, 2010)

It will look like this after a wash.


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## hibiscusmile (Dec 21, 2010)

Is that burlap? It looks like what we call burlap in the United States of America!


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## lion (Dec 22, 2010)

Yes you're right.

I'm gonna post some pics of a cage later to convince you guys that it looks cool.


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## Precarious (Dec 22, 2010)

lion said:


> Yes you're right.
> 
> I'm gonna post some pics of a cage later to convince you guys that it looks cool.


Tattered pieces hanging would probably even look cool. Like hanging moss or something.

My only concern would be how well it holds up in high humidity and whether it will grow mold in those conditions.


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