# S. limbata breeding 2009



## kamakiri (Apr 4, 2009)

Finally have my 3rd of 3 female adults mated.

Cherisse, a small bright green female and Mr. Spam, a normal male were coupled from about 9pm last night to about 2 pm today. After de-coupling, he immediately jumped off when I removed the lid. So at least I didn't lose another.  

Cherisse previously ate Fred, who probably didn't couple as he was a little agitated prior to mounting. I believe that was my fault for nudging him onto her lid. Since then I've just brought the males to the females on their lid and just set it down behind the female making sure he has spotted her and holds still.

Previous matings were between Marge, my only pinkish adult female and Gus another 'normal' green male. Gus was eaten after copulation. The other mating was with Vanessa who is green with red-puple legs and Mr. Chicken, a crinkle winged male.

I was going to re-mate Vanessa with a normal male after some of Arkanis' males, which are siblings, molted to adult with crinkle wings...but decided to wait until I have one or two ooths first. I may re-mate Vanessa with another crinkle winged male first.

Originally, I was hoping to do more of an experiment around the colors and patterns, but since I only ended up with green or greenish males and only one pink female, I thought that would be moot.


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## yeatzee (Apr 4, 2009)

Dang your way ahead of me! I've been super busy lately so my Limbatas have been fed sparingly so I only have L5-6 mainly! Ha I actually have a couple L1's and a few L4's too!


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## kamakiri (Apr 7, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Dang your way ahead of me! I've been super busy lately so my Limbatas have been fed sparingly so I only have L5-6 mainly! Ha I actually have a couple L1's and a few L4's too!


Haha...hurry up!  

Re-mated Vanessa and Mr. Chicken Sunday night. Came home Monday evening to Chicken dismounted hanging under the twig in the cage. Vanessa was just reaching out toward him from the lid. He was fluttering his useless wings frantically...poor guy. At least I came home in time to save him!

I'll probably re-mate Marge with a new normal male once the other two turn two weeks next week.

Cherisse and Marge are finally putting on some weight and are finally taking 2 adult crix in a feeding. Feedings have been once or twice a day.


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## hibiscusmile (Apr 7, 2009)

YOu guys did good, I ended up with just girls


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## Zelthan (Apr 7, 2009)

Could you please show me photos of your limabtaas?


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## kamakiri (Apr 8, 2009)

Zeth said:


> Could you please show me photos of your limabtaas?


Many of us have some in this thread (link to my post):

Hatch limbatas post



hibiscusmile said:


> YOu guys did good, I ended up with just girls


 Hrm...does that mean they're for sale?  

Might be interested in swapping for something! :lol: 

But that does make me wonder about the differences in male vs. female ratios. :huh:


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## yeatzee (Apr 9, 2009)

idk what the ratios are, but I just checked and found out to my dismay that I only have 1 male!!! Im going to need to find some wild ones quick!


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## kamakiri (Apr 9, 2009)

Here's a couple of the girls fattening up...

EDIT: Cherisse is much smaller and was about 2 3/4" long after her last molt. Marge is about 3 1/4".

Cherisse having a cricket:







Marge doing the same:


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## Peter Clausen (Apr 9, 2009)

I have quite a few L4 and L1 nymphs (two diff. ooths). The older ones are kept in the same kinds of individual containers (3 inches tall with paper towel). Lots of different colorations showing despite all having the same decor.


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## kamakiri (Apr 11, 2009)

Vanessa wasn't putting on weight like the other girls...so I am guessing that Mr. Chicken may be sterile. I am re-mating her with another crinkle wing, Dexter, right now.

Peter, it sounds like you will be better equipped to try a color breeding experiment sooner than I will. I only have one L5 male that is not green, but tan-camo for now.


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## kamakiri (Apr 16, 2009)

Vanessa finally appears to be putting on weight and needs to catch up with her sisters!

I also think Mr. Chicken must have damaged his phallomeres from the first mating. They've never retracted for him and all the other males to survive mating seem to have.

Dexter and Vanessa from last week:
















Also wanted to point out that all three females show puncture marks at the base of the fore wings from the males tibial spines. Perhaps it is what one should look for on wild caught females to predict fertility of her oothecae.


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## OGIGA (Apr 16, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Also wanted to point out that all three females show puncture marks at the base of the fore wings from the males tibial spines. Perhaps it is what one should look for on wild caught females to predict fertility of her oothecae.


That's an awesome idea! I never thought of looking for those puncture marks to indicate fertility. Props for you.


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## jameslongo (Apr 17, 2009)

Hey Kamakiri,

Your S. limbata look almost exactly the same as the Aussie P. albifimbrata (False Garden Mantid). I guess Falseys are our response to yours Is the crinkle-wing specific to this mantid, or do other varieties display this trait? And is it common in S. limbata? I'm just asking to see if I can't spice up my humble stock

Cheers,

James.


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## kamakiri (Apr 17, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> Hey Kamakiri,Your S. limbata look almost exactly the same as the Aussie P. albifimbrata (False Garden Mantid). I guess Falseys are our response to yours Is the crinkle-wing specific to this mantid, or do other varieties display this trait? And is it common in S. limbata? I'm just asking to see if I can't spice up my humble stock
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> James.


James, I think the crinkle-wing is specific to an ooth (could be oothecae) from a wild caught female that Arkanis found last year. I got my 'first batch' stock from him. I believe this to be a new genetic mutation or an environmental issue with the keeper(s). I hope my experiment with Vanessa and Dexter tells us which it is!


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## kamakiri (Apr 17, 2009)

OGIGA said:


> That's an awesome idea! I never thought of looking for those puncture marks to indicate fertility. Props for you.


Thanks, perhaps this would have been a better talent contest entry  :lol:


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## yeatzee (Apr 17, 2009)

Look at those wings! I didn't expect them to be that bad! I'll have to see if i get any/find any.


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## kamakiri (Apr 17, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Look at those wings! I didn't expect them to be that bad! I'll have to see if i get any/find any.


I hope you don't...

Are you misting your mantises?


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## cloud jaguar (Apr 18, 2009)

Kamakiri, none of the crinkle wings we raised have wings as crinkled as those of the males in your pictures above. Are those males pictured typical of the ones you raised from the same ooth as ours or especially crinkly?

Only the males are crinkles? We had one female slightly crinkled but she fell during molting and i had to reposition her so not sure if her very slight crinkles are from fall.

As far as ours go, the factors which may have affected these crinkle wings are:

1. recessive mutation

2. inbreeding - wild found ooth

3. humidity based (sprayed every 2 days with distilled water but can get very dry here like 25%). All enclosures have foam bottoms to conserve humidity.

4. light based - during the day these guys dont get too much light at all

5. cricket based - these were fed on crickets exclusively save for an occasional found treat . These crickets are giant and cannibalistic even though well fed on greens, oats, dog food kibbles, nectar and water. They are kept in a tub in the same room where the mantids are so they get about the same amount of light as the mantids.

An important observation made by my wife is that several of the crickets are crinkle wings too. This fact makes factors 3, 4, and 5 more attractive to me as reasons for the crinkle wings.

Also, while we had very very low casualties of the s. limbatas through all stages of nymphdom, once they became subadaults many of the pinks or brown camos mysteriously weakened and died very suddenly despite being well fed and watered. Also i discussed that our first s. limbata to become an adult and happened to be pink died mysteriously at about 2 weeks just as i was getting ready to have her mated to a crinkle winged male.

Currently we only have one adult female and no adult males since there are some crinkles and normals living out there in our mantis garden - which reminds me i need a pic of that garden soon when the tall stuff starts to fill in.

Anyways, it is intriguing about the crinkle wings - a true enigma.


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## kamakiri (Apr 20, 2009)

There's been a huge setback to the experiment. Vanessa died sometime this morning. She had a bit of diarrhea when I left for work. Came back home just after lunch and she was legs folded on the floor. Ugh. :-/

I've been anxious enough that none of her sisters have laid yet, but this really sucks on so many levels.


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## kamakiri (Apr 20, 2009)

She appears to have suffered a prolapsed intestine. Prepping her for either burial or dissection, it looks like a 1/4" of intestine are full and exposed. I'm guessing dissection won't find anything else, so I'm probably just going to bury her.

Could have been due to a cricket bite since there were two in her cage, but I doubt they were the culprits since I saw the diarrhea this morning.


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## Katnapper (Apr 20, 2009)

Sorry to hear about Vanessa, Kamakiri.


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## kamakiri (Apr 20, 2009)

Thanks Katnapper. It's always disappointing to lose adults...but even more frustrating to lose a pet *and* subject of experiment. Oh, well.


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## Peter Clausen (Apr 21, 2009)

Sorry, Kamakiri, but I have trouble believing in the color experiment. I've seen all different colors displayed from the same original ootheca, so I just have trouble believing that different colors in their environments could have an affect.

Also, humidity supposedly plays a factor in coloration of some other insects (Extatosoma tiaratum, for example, is more green when raised in humid conditions. Full on phasmid scientists swear by this! And then foods like Eucalyptus vs. blackberry have been said to have effects.).

It seems difficult to set the control. Since a large percentage of them are pinkish-tan and another large portion are green (and other colors as you have listed), it's impossible to know whether an individual mantis placed on a green background was going to be green anyway. I tend to suspect it has more to do with genetic factors, but I'm interested in your experiments and results. S. limbata is a wonderful mantis for the fact it does come in several different flavors! So little is really known about most bugs. Today you've taught me to look for puncture marks on wild-caught females' wings!

What did I miss about these crinkle-winged mantids? I must have missed the other thread where you discussed this. Arkanis and Kamakiri, how many males reached maturity and how many of them had crinkled wings? Very interesting!


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## kamakiri (Apr 21, 2009)

Peter,

The crinkle wing discussion is mostly here:

Crinkle wing thread in health forum

My feeling so far is that the environment color only has a small effect on overall color and patterning with _S. limbata_.

From my first batch, all my males ended up being green variants. 13 or so made it to adult. One was a slightly blue-green. None from this group were 'camo' patterned.

Of the five females that made it to L7/subadult, two were pink/tan and three were green. One of each were showing camo patterning, only the pink female became a camo imago.

The slight adjustment of color was only noticeable from a small sample of the group. Off the top of my head, the examples are the white one which was only that way for L5 or L6 and reverted back to pink/tan. A couple of the males turned into a shade of green very close to the green of their enclosure. The other male mentioned above turned bluer than the rest with blue and purple surroundings.

More bad news for me to pile on today...

Marge will probably die too.

Over the weekend and thru yesterday, we've been having a heat wave...the house is air conditioned, but we have it set to a relatively high temp when we are out at either 76 or 78 F.


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## Peter Clausen (Apr 21, 2009)

Thanks for the update on the color experiment and link. I will make a post at that link about my theory on the wings.

Sorry to hear about Marge.


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 21, 2009)

Peter said:


> Sorry, Kamakiri, but I have trouble believing in the color experiment. I've seen all different colors displayed from the same original ootheca, so I just have trouble believing that different colors in their environments could have an affect.It seems difficult to set the control. Since a large percentage of them are pinkish-tan and another large portion are green (and other colors as you have listed), it's impossible to know whether an individual mantis placed on a green background was going to be green anyway. I tend to suspect it has more to do with genetic factors, but I'm interested in your experiments and results. S. limbata is a wonderful mantis for the fact it does come in several different flavors! So little is really known about most bugs. Today you've taught me to look for puncture marks on wild-caught females' wings!


Yeah, quite aside from the dreaded "null hypothesis" that you alluded to, there are a lot of pitfalls standing between accurately gathered data and a working hypothesis. Here are two S. limbata related examples, one ridiculous, one interesting:

I collected wild S. limbata ooths from the wall adjoining my "secret limbata haven," and found that while most of them were a faded grey, some were of a cream color that exactly matched the stucco wall. Cryptic coloration! Only when I got them home and examined them closely did I realize that the "cream" ones were over a year old (all unzipped) and that they were cream because someone had touched up the wall with cream paint!

One field study on this mantis (sorry, can't remember where I saw it) noted that of two color morphs of S. limbata, occuring on grass stems, there were a greater number of brown miorph specimens at the top of the stalks, which had begun to turn brown, and greater number of green specimens on the power, greener parts of the stems. This seems to suggest that either the mantids could change their color to match their environment or that they "selected" an apropriate background on which to perch. The former, though, implies an almost chameleon like ability to change color, and the latter suggests that the two populations were ecologically distinct. This argument, thoughm, as you suggest, would be greatly weakened by finding a "significant" number of brown morphs among the greens and vice versa. Another, perhaps more likely possibility, though, is that neither color morph chose its environment, but that at the end of the day, more green specimens on the brown stems had been predated and the same with brown specimens on the green parts of the stems. Evolution in process!

Certainly, it wouldn't be hard to test this hypothesis, but my point here is that a single set of data is often insufficient on its own.


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## kamakiri (Apr 30, 2009)

Finally have a couple of adults from the second batch of nymphs. Mandy molted last week and is a light tan with lemon-yellow wings. One of the two males molted and is a green/tan camo with silvery wings speckled with black. Both are relatively small compared to all of the first batch adults. I'll try breeding them in another week or so.

Cherisse seems to be egg bound and still has not laid. There are 4 normal and 3 crinkle males left from the first batch.


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## kamakiri (May 1, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Cherisse seems to be egg bound and still has not laid.


Of course, I needed to type that in order to encourage her. She's not doing too well, but is laying an ooth between the branch she is barely hanging from and the bottom of the plastic cage. I hope at least a few will be able to hatch from that one.

I think lack of humidity may be the main issue with my first batch of females and the loss of Vanessa and Marge. The second batch seems to be doing better with some misting, and Cherisse seems to be doing better, and well, at least she isn't egg bound. Thanks to hypoponera for pointing out that his adults 'respond well to increased humidity'.


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## Zelthan (May 2, 2009)

Do limbata need wintering to hatch?


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## kamakiri (May 2, 2009)

Zeth said:


> Do limbata need wintering to hatch?


nope!


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## Zelthan (May 2, 2009)

I gues I have S limbate then!! I will be trading ooths soon!


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## Zelthan (May 4, 2009)

Zeth said:


> I gues I have S limbate then!! I will be trading ooths soon!


Yea Now I have 3 adult males and 3 adult females !!


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## kamakiri (May 27, 2009)

Update:

Well after the near complete failure of the first batch, I finally have some hope with the second batch. Mandy is mating right now with one of her siblings. I still have several males from the first batch, but since Mandy is relatively small, a large male's head would be easy pickins for the fatal reach-around manouvre...

Cherisse died last week without making a second ooth. I'll just be crossing my fingers on the one she made while barely hanging on...

There is one more female from the second batch, but she has barfed several times over the last month and I don't have high hopes that she would successfully mate and lay.

EDIT 7/29/09 :



kamakiri said:


> Cherisse died last week without making a second ooth.


Forgot to update that Cherisse actually did make a small second ooth that I did not find until the day that I buried her. It was just well hidden in the crotch of the branch in her enclosure.


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## kamakiri (May 27, 2009)

:sigh: Mandy ate Scotty  So much for my smaller male won't get eaten idea...


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## d17oug18 (May 28, 2009)

just thought id chime in on the chamo thoughts, i had a full batch living in one cage and i think they can change colors when they shed, when the foilage dried or died, the nymphs would shed brown, if i put in new foilage when they where close to shedding they would go back to green, ALL 10 nymphs changed colors to where they liked to pearch, if they were at a brown area and moved to a greener area they changed the drastic colors during there mold, shocked me quite a bit. i do believe they can change without shedding as well. only because my brothers S. limbata did so 2 weeks after a molt, it shed green then after the plants died off it went into a brown chamo colors, both tan and dark brown, almost like a zebra lol. just thought id add my 2 cents in.


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## kamakiri (Jun 2, 2009)

Yay! Finally, a normal ooth!  I was pretty sure there was going to be one this morning. Last night, Mandy was probing/tapping the ceiling of her enclosure with her ovipositor. Was way too tired to stay up to watch...but I'm so glad to finally have a new ooth!


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 2, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> :sigh: Mandy ate Scotty  So much for my smaller male won't get eaten idea...


I guess that poor old Scotty failed to beam up in time!


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## kamakiri (Jun 6, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> I guess that poor old Scotty failed to beam up in time!


I guess not! :lol: And was thinking I would re-mate Mandy after her first ooth, but she is *extra* agressive for a small female...but I'm thinking it is almost guaranteed to cost me another male. While I don't think it's a bad idea, I'm not doing the cone thing to any of my girls.


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## kamakiri (Jun 22, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> There is one more female from the second batch, but she has barfed several times over the last month and I don't have high hopes that she would successfully mate and lay.


Just to prove me wrong, this girl "Sandy" (Mandy's sister) laid an ooth this afternoon! A really nice surprise for this one and considering all the problems with my 'first batch' females.

It's been over two weeks since Mandy's last ooth (6/2) and she hasn't been eating, so I'm hoping for her second ooth any day now...


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## Peter Clausen (Jun 22, 2009)

It's very interesting and rare to get culture updates like this through a series of generations. Keep them coming!


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## kamakiri (Jun 22, 2009)

Peter said:


> It's very interesting and rare to get culture updates like this through a series of generations. Keep them coming!


Will do...I'm glad somebody is listening! Sometimes feel like I'm typing at myself! :lol: 



kamakiri said:


> It's been over two weeks since Mandy's last ooth (6/2) and she hasn't been eating, so I'm hoping for her second ooth any day now...


At least Mandy was a good girl and was finishing up her second ooth by the time I got up this morning (6/22). Just after I typed the above post and went to bed, I did see her tap the roof of her enclosure with her ovipositor and that's exacty where the ooth was this morning. Yay.


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## kamakiri (Jul 11, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Of course, I needed to type that in order to encourage her. She's not doing too well, but is laying an ooth between the branch she is barely hanging from and the bottom of the plastic cage. I hope at least a few will be able to hatch from that one.I think lack of humidity may be the main issue with my first batch of females and the loss of Vanessa and Marge. The second batch seems to be doing better with some misting, and Cherisse seems to be doing better, and well, at least she isn't egg bound. Thanks to hypoponera for pointing out that his adults 'respond well to increased humidity'.


Well, there's some good news and bad news...

Cherisse's laid while barely alive stuck on the zipper upside down ooth has hatched!  That was just over two months incubating in the mid-70s fahrenheit from 5/1 to 7/10 yesterday. While I was only hoping to get a few nymphs from that ooth it hatched out over 32!  So I'm guessing that Mandy's first ooth from 6/2 should hatch before 8/10 since the average temp should be slightly warmer now that it's early summer. I guess we'll see.

The bad news is that Mandy died earlier in the week 7/8/09.  Apparently, there were problems with her reproductive parts. When I last saw her alive, the vavles were pointed up out of the ovipositor/'6th segment' with what I'm guessing was unfrothed ooth material stuck all around. Hated feeling there was nothing I could do to help her, but we all know that's sometimes just the way it is. I am also a little disappointed since she was simply a favorite pet, the only one I had considered pinning after she died.

Mandy:


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## Katnapper (Jul 11, 2009)

That's great that Cherisse's ooth hatched! And a good number too.  Sorry to hear about Mandy. I hope her ooths will give you her babies to remind you of her. :wub:


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## kamakiri (Jul 11, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> That's great that Cherisse's ooth hatched! And a good number too.  Sorry to hear about Mandy. I hope her ooths will give you her babies to remind you of her. :wub:


Thanks Rebecca  That's what I'm hoping for! More yellow manties! :lol:


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## cloud jaguar (Jul 11, 2009)

Sorry your pet Mandy died


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## yen_saw (Jul 11, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Mandy:


Very nice pic of Mandy... RIP


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## agent A (Jul 11, 2009)

So sad.


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## kamakiri (Jul 12, 2009)

Hey, thanks guys.  Cherisse's ooth continued to hatch through this morning, about another 10 yesterday and watched 5 more this morning so far.


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## kamakiri (Jul 28, 2009)

Great news! Mandy's first ooth from 6/2 hatched this morning exactly eight weeks later! I was expecting it to hatch within another 10 days based on Cherisse's ooth incubation time. I don't have an exact count, but looks like 100-120 guesstimating.


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## kamakiri (Aug 4, 2009)

From the ooth that hatched on 7/28, there were 105 in the first two days, and 31 from the next two days...for a total of 136 over 4 days of hatching. Most of these are 'camo' patterned, and some appear to be dark red. When they were hatching, they were cream with red at some of the joints.

I put Mandy's second ooth from 6/22 in the fridge. Since there was a decent hatch out from the first ooth, I thought it would be prudent to 'save' these for another day, effectively half way through their incubation period. I hope it doesn't kill them, but I am betting that they will be okay.

Cherisse's nymphs are mostly L3 now, and I have maybe 15-20 and will separate soon as they are starting to be more interested in consuming one another instead of the feeder hydei.

Sandra's ooth from 6/3 has still not hatched, and since it was kept so close to Mandy's...I'm beginning to wonder if it is fertile...now that I type that, it will probably hatch tomorrow! :lol:


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## kamakiri (Aug 15, 2009)

Sandra's ooth started hatching this morning. Not sure about the reason for the 'delay' since it was only laid a day after Mandy's first and was kept right next to it. I guess I'll never know. Perhaps a couple dozen today, and I'd expect more tomorrow.

EDIT:

I guess I got my records all messed up. Sandra's first ooth was from 6/21 NOT 6/3...so it is just in time! One day shy of 8 weeks!

EDIT 2:

Separated the first day nymphs from the hatching container tonight and it had 35 total. Would have waited 2 days to feed and separate, but several were getting stuck under a paper towel at the bottom and I had to take that out when I realized it was pinning several of the nymphs.


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## kamakiri (Aug 31, 2009)

Update:

Cherisse's nymphs L4 &amp; L5...Mostly green and a few with red/brown spots on the back tergites/wing buds/thorax

Mandy's nymphs L3 &amp; L4...Small percentage of brown/pink and lime-green to yellow. Others are green. Few are camo patterend now.

Sandra's nymphs mostly L2 now...most shed the camo and are solid green with very few tan.

With all communally housed groups cannibalism has been prettly low for now as they have been pretty well fed. 'special' colors and L4+ mantises have been separated and housed individually. I hope to have a breeding army soon!

EDIT:

Also plan to take out Mandy's 2nd ooth from the fridge tomorrow, it will have been exactly 1 month and would be predicted to hatch in about 4 more weeks.


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## MantidLord (Aug 31, 2009)

Hey kamakiri, do you have any pics of Limbata with its wings out (showing the second set of wings)? I know someone with an unidentified mantis and we can't decide whether or not it's limbata, carolina, ect. Thanks a lot and congrats on the success.


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## kamakiri (Sep 1, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Hey kamakiri, do you have any pics of Limbata with its wings out (showing the second set of wings)? I know someone with an unidentified mantis and we can't decide whether or not it's limbata, carolina, ect. Thanks a lot and congrats on the success.


Sorry  I don't have any of the hind wings. But the adult limbata females have yellow or yellow/clear speckled wings and the males have been a dark/clear speckling. I wish I did take some pics, but the girls rarely had reason to display. Some of them would flutter their wings when I picked up their containers, but otherwise I rarely saw the wings.

I did have some of the males out on occasion to fly...but their wings are not that spectacular.


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## MantidLord (Sep 1, 2009)

Thanks anyway for the info. For some reason I have the ability to make my mantids freak out on me. So Limbata are yellow in the female. Cool. Is there any other characteristics distinguishing the stagmomantis species besides ooths and hind wings? For instance, when the mystery mantis was a nymph, its arms had these small stripe-like markings on them. And its head and body aren't proportional. At first we thought it was a budwing. But now that it's an adult female, its wings are too large. So we figured it's a stagmomantis species.


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## kamakiri (Sep 2, 2009)

Could you post a picture? I'm sure that would help.


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## MantidLord (Sep 3, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Could you post a picture? I'm sure that would help.


I'll see if I can get a picture of it. My friend lives in California and I don't even know if he has a camera but if I get a pic, I'll definitely post it.


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## kamakiri (Sep 3, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> ...its arms had these small stripe-like markings on them.


If it was wild-caught in California, I think that odds are it is a _limbata_ considering the striped 'arms'. A pic would still help if you can get one. What area did he get it?


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## MantidLord (Sep 3, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> If it was wild-caught in California, I think that odds are it is a _limbata_ considering the striped 'arms'. A pic would still help if you can get one. What area did he get it?


Northern California, like the bay area.


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## kamakiri (Sep 15, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Also plan to take out Mandy's 2nd ooth from the fridge tomorrow, it will have been exactly 1 month and would be predicted to hatch in about 4 more weeks.


Well, that prediction was WRONG! That ooth hatched today! Exactly two weeks after I took it out of the fridge.






















So to recap, Mandy's first ooth took exactly 8 weeks to hatch.

The second one was out for 4 weeks, in the fridge for 4 weeks and then was out only 2 weeks till it hatched! I'll update with a headcount.


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## cloud jaguar (Sep 15, 2009)

Man, those sure look cool hatching out like that! One of us really has to get the s. californica and start keeping that one. As i have only found one (on mexican sage) and i read in Insects of Los Angeles Basin that they prefer 'coastal sage' i expect this is probably the best place to look for these. If anyone finds some of these let me know


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## cloud jaguar (Sep 15, 2009)

Kamakiri, if you have a chance perhaps you could put together a post discussing your findings about keeping s. limbata oothecae in the fridge - i have never done this and am keen on trying this. Did you spray them? What was the hatch rate? stuff like that


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## kamakiri (Sep 16, 2009)

Arkanis said:


> Man, those sure look cool hatching out like that! One of us really has to get the s. californica and start keeping that one. As i have only found one (on mexican sage) and i read in Insects of Los Angeles Basin that they prefer 'coastal sage' i expect this is probably the best place to look for these. If anyone finds some of these let me know


Watching them hatch never gets old for me...I guess I'm just a big kid. If I can find any californica, you can bet I'll try to keep them!



Arkanis said:


> Kamakiri, if you have a chance perhaps you could put together a post discussing your findings about keeping s. limbata oothecae in the fridge - i have never done this and am keen on trying this. Did you spray them? What was the hatch rate? stuff like that


It was pretty simple the way I did it. First, I gotta say I believe that these and many other ooths do not generally need to be sprayed while incubating. Only for the period that they are expected to hatch. Since I was only planning to keep it in the fridge for a month, I decided that it shouldn't need spraying.

I use containers that are paper ventilated cups (from Smart-n-Final right across the aisle from the deli tubs at the store near me). I noticed that they are the same as some ooth vendors use for commercial sale.

I put enough excelsior to loosely fill the bottom third of the container. I sprayed the excelsior once with distilled water to make it surface damp, but not soggy. I didn't want the ooth rolling around like the ones I've seen in the garden stores, so I made a basket or cradle out of vinyl window screen to hold it in the center, so it wouldn't touch the sides or the damp excelsior. Put the ooth in put it in the fridge, in the door on the upper shelf, where it never freezes. Took the ooth out a month later and glued it back to the top of the kritter keeper where it came from one day later. Just used two low-temp glue dots on the ends.

I haven't done a head count yet, but the hatching seems better than the last. So far it has been less than 24 hours and it looks like it has hatched more than Mandy's first ooth in two days. Which might mean that the diapause just let them group together more/tighter...I'll know more when hatching is complete.

That's about it. I'll send you one of the cups if you want.

One interesting thing about Mandy's nymphs is that I can see that some are yellow-based morphs and others are green based. While I am excited to have found so many new (to me) morphs...I really want to cross the Mandy pink ones with the (very few) others from Sandra and Cherisse. It seems the selective breeding is making a difference even at the F1 generation.


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## kamakiri (Sep 16, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Hey kamakiri, do you have any pics of Limbata with its wings out (showing the second set of wings)? I know someone with an unidentified mantis and we can't decide whether or not it's limbata, carolina, ect. Thanks a lot and congrats on the success.





kamakiri said:


> Sorry  I don't have any of the hind wings. But the adult limbata females have yellow or yellow/clear speckled wings and the males have been a dark/clear speckling. I wish I did take some pics, but the girls rarely had reason to display. Some of them would flutter their wings when I picked up their containers, but otherwise I rarely saw the wings.I did have some of the males out on occasion to fly...but their wings are not that spectacular.


*Sigh*, I lied...took this shot on 4/19. Forgot about the pics from this shooting day because the shutter died  

Click for LARGE pic


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## kamakiri (Sep 17, 2009)

More of Mandy's 2nd hatching:

Click for Large pic






Early green morph on the left and tan morph on the right:

Click for Large pic


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## kamakiri (Sep 17, 2009)

Also forgot to include one of Mandy's pink nymphs:

Click for Larger


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## MantidLord (Sep 18, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> *Sigh*, I lied...took this shot on 4/19. Forgot about the pics from this shooting day because the shutter died  Click for LARGE pic


lol, thanks a lot. It's definitely a limbata.


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## kamakiri (Sep 22, 2009)

After watching some of my previously kept _limbata_ girls searching for a place to lay, I decided that I'd try to use twigs that are closer in diameter to what I found in the wild. The rose twig that I found the ooth on was just over 3/32" in diameter and was found on a section that was nearly horizontal. Most of the branches that I was using in the critter keepers for laying were in the 1/2" to 1" range, and mostly diagonal in the 30 to 40 degree range.

So with the female (Athena) that I found mating last week, I decide to give her the options of the larger branches that I used to use, some fake flower/foliage/stems, and a few thin twigs both diagonal and horizontal directly mounted to the cage top with twist ties.

As I type, she is laying on the horizontal twig twist-tied to the cage top. I'll be giving all the females similar options to get a sample set of data.


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## kamakiri (Sep 27, 2009)

Gwyn laid an ooth this weekend after mating last weekend. She didn't use the lid-mounted twig, but chose a plastic rail that borders the perimeter of the door. Same type of place that Mandy put her two ooths.

Most of the recently caught females are mated. The last wild caught male (Daniel) with one arm molted to adult today.


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## cloud jaguar (Sep 27, 2009)

Kamakiri, did any of your second gen mantids have crinkle wings?


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## Katnapper (Sep 28, 2009)

Grant, Sept. 17th's nymph pics are awesome!


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## kamakiri (Sep 28, 2009)

Arkanis said:


> Kamakiri, did any of your second gen mantids have crinkle wings?


I've been wondering about that too. The only ones that I'm watching for it are from Cherisse, and there a few subadult males...so I should know soon. I've had three wild caught males molt to adult, so I'm thinking that my current keeping conditions should help me figure out if it is genetic or environmental. I suspect the latter.

Just took a look after I typed the above, and one of Cherisse's male sons molted to adult overnight and is normal winged.



Katnapper said:


> Grant, Sept. 17th's nymph pics are awesome!


Thanks, Rebecca!  Compliments on Mondays are especially nice!


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## yen_saw (Sep 28, 2009)

Congrate Kamakiri! thanks for sharing your observation too.


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## yeatzee (Oct 1, 2009)

I can't seem to remember, do you have the canon MPE-65?


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## kamakiri (Oct 1, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> I can't seem to remember, do you have the canon MPE-65?


Yup, and probably one of the reasons why I stick with Canon. Well, that and there's a service center not far away from me.

I've been meaning to convert one of my Sigma cameras to EOS (Canon) mount...I'd love to see what the MP-E would do on the Sigma DSLR.

EDIT: And might as well post an update...

The wild-caught yellow female (mated with the first 'dark' WC male) laid an ooth yesterday morning 9/30/09 on a horizontal narrow twig not strapped to the lid, but about 1" below it. This ooth seems longer than average.

A deep green wild-caught female laid an ooth overnight last night on the cloth deli lid. She was mated with the '2nd batch' WC green male. She was in the tub and not a 'prepared' keeper for laying because she was mated overnight just the night before. She was tapping the top of the lid with her ovipositor late last night. I did not want to disturb and relocate her.

The green-pink female was laying this morning (mated with the first 'dark' WC male). This ooth was being laid vertically from top-down on the side of the lid/top and will probably be on the clear sides when finished.

Still waiting for 2nd ooths...and for the red/purple one to lay.

All of the females were inspected for the 'tell-tale' puncture marks for indication of mating in the wild. There was only one with clear markings, and she also has not laid since caught. I suspect she did lay an ooth prior to catching her because she was relatively thin. Thin enough to speculate that if she didn't lay, then she also didn't recently eat her mate. The only (two) females caught while mating were fat.


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## yeatzee (Oct 1, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Yup, and probably one of the reasons why I stick with Canon. Well, that and there's a service center not far away from me.I've been meaning to convert one of my Sigma cameras to EOS (Canon) mount...I'd love to see what the MP-E would do on the Sigma DSLR.


As Im sure I've already said, that lens is the only reason I would go dual system (I love my pentax system to death so thats why I'd go dual system.). That and their macro flash (not the ring light).


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## kamakiri (Oct 3, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Cherisse's (ooth) laid while barely alive stuck on the zipper upside down ooth has hatched!  That was just over two months incubating in the mid-70s fahrenheit from 5/1 to 7/10 yesterday.


Forgot to report the first adults from this batch (Cherisse) were: male molted on 9/28 and female on 10/1. I don't have records what day those individuals hatched, but that means they made adult in less than 3 months. (maximum 11 weeks, 3 and 6 days respectively).


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## kamakiri (Oct 4, 2009)

Arkanis said:


> Kamakiri, did any of your second gen mantids have crinkle wings?


Two more 'Cherisse' males molted to adult this morning each in 16 oz. tubs. Perfectly normal green males...


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## kamakiri (Oct 5, 2009)

The red/pink one was laying an ooth on her lid this morning on the rim of the opening like many others have done. Except that it was laid right next to one of the twigs mounted to the lid, and may be touching it on the side.


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## yeatzee (Oct 6, 2009)

I just found a half pink female (abdomen down she is pink including wings). She is the biggest limbata I've personally seen before, and by far the "prettiest".

Fingers crossed I find a male or she's already mated. I'll post pictures later


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## kamakiri (Oct 6, 2009)

Take a look (or a pic) of the base of the forewings. I've noticed that sometimes males leave puncture marks there from their femoral spines from hanging on tightly. The marks are not always there or obvious on a female even if mated. So it's not a completely reliable indicator.

PM me if you need more males.


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## yeatzee (Oct 6, 2009)

Thanks for the tip! I'll take a look at her with my camera hopefully today

edit: *CONGRATS ON THE 1000 POST!!!!*


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## kamakiri (Oct 8, 2009)

Update:

2 more females laid ooths. The dark green female made one this morning on the cloth lid. Pics to follow. Also the darker gray/pink female. I didn't expect the green one to lay so soon after mating, less than 19 hours from disconnecting (could be as little as 11 hours). Still no 2nd ooths from any of the females. All 10 females that were collected have been mated. Only one of those did not lay yet and probably will today or tomorrow.


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## kamakiri (Oct 9, 2009)

*Big* Update!

Lo and behold: One of the males molted yesterday with *crinkle wings*! This is a male from the same batch/source from Arkanis that was having the problems. His mother was Cherisse and a 'normal' winged male from the same batch which had the crinkles. I watched the molt and saw him turn and hang properly to pump-up the wings. When I checked on him later yesterday...they hadn't fully pumed up despite a problem free molt. Recently, I've had 4 wild caught males and two of his brothers molt with normal wings in the same conditions and the same 16 oz deli tub size with cloth lids and a foam stopper in the center. Ambient humidity has been in the mid to high 50% range. Temps were in the 68 to 76 F range. One other deviation seems to be a curled antenna.

While I thought the experiment was a total failure, there is a glimmer of producing some results. And I am leaning towards it being a recessive genetic condition. I will study and produce for at least another generation if I am lucky enough.

Other update news is that the first female (yellow) adult molted this morning or overnight from Mandy's 1st ooth. I now suspect that the size of some of these mantises is partly genetic, as Mandy and Sandra are from different genetic stock which were from Paul (ismart) earlier this year. Those adults were notably smaller for both males and females. This female is petite like Mandy was, and I would not be surprised if she develops the faint blue hue in the eyes that Mandy had...I have not seen that color in the yellow females wild-caught or bred from California stock.

It is possible that this supports Christian's comment in another thread that limbata may actually be two species. I hope to cross the two groups once the crinkle breeding is done and I have some ooths.


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 9, 2009)

Oops! Sorry, double post.


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 9, 2009)

Oops, Oops! Sorry, sorry, triple post!


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 9, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> *Big* Update!Lo and behold: One of the males molted yesterday with *crinkle wings*! This is a male from the same batch/source from Arkanis that was having the problems. His mother was Cherisse and a 'normal' winged male from the same batch which had the crinkles. I watched the molt and saw him turn and hang properly to pump-up the wings. When I checked on him later yesterday...they hadn't fully pumed up despite a problem free molt. Recently, I've had 4 wild caught males and two of his brothers molt with normal wings in the same conditions and the same 16 oz deli tub size with cloth lids and a foam stopper in the center. Ambient humidity has been in the mid to high 50% range. Temps were in the 68 to 76 F range. One other deviation seems to be a curled antenna.
> 
> While I thought the experiment was a total failure, there is a glimmer of producing some results. And I am leaning towards it being a recessive genetic condition. I will study and produce for at least another generation if I am lucky enough.
> 
> ...


Kamakiri:

Your persistence and attention to detail in this study, which is almost certainly the longest of its kind on this forum, is truly impressive. You mention, though, that you had thought that your experiment "was a total failure." This suggests to me that you had already decided what you wanted the outcome to be when you started this experiment, rather than conducting it to see what is true. I think that you have provided a convincing demonstration of the facts of this issue.

You suggest that your discovery of a male that eclosed with a wing defect may support Christian's contention that S. limbata _may_ [my emphasis] be actually two species. I'm sure that Christian will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that as a systematist, he would "split" the species on morphological grounds rather than on the presence of an occasional aberration. Also, if your mantids are producing offspring when crossed in the F2 generation, they can be considered to be of the same species, though one type may have "transitional " characteristics.

Actually, Grant, this issue has been decided over a century ago by Mendel. A recessive phenotype like "male crinkle wings" (let's assume that it is lethal in females) should appear in 25% of the population*. If this form represents substantially less than that, as you appear to have demonstrated, it is not. A discussion of the appearance of critters or plants with a double recessive genotype (demonstrated in the phenotype) is readily available on the Internet. There is no particular reason why you should believe me, but I do suggest that you check it out.

And again, I am truly impressed by your rigor.

* And before someone goes off at a tangent, I am referring to the male population, of course.


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## kamakiri (Oct 9, 2009)

Phil, Thanks, but before we go off on a tangent, I view the size/species issue and the crinkle wing/genetics issue as separate.

1. The ismart source of mantises helps only prove that the condition is probably not environmental. The 'new' wild caught specimens also help to prove the 'not environmental' thinking.

2. The ismart mantises are noticably smaller. The size and source issue will be tested separately, though the two 'experiments' may use the same control group or comparisons.

By failure, I only mean that I was not able to keep the main subjects of the crinkle test alive. Mainly Vanessa, who was mated with a crinkle-wing, and also the other pairs from the Arkanis sourced group as a whole. While Cherisse was part of the whole attempt, loss of her sisters was the main failure.

Hope that clarifies my intent.


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## MantidLord (Oct 9, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Phil, Thanks, but before we go off on a tangent, I view the size/species issue and the crinkle wing/genetics issue as separate. 1. The ismart source of mantises helps only prove that the condition is probably not environmental. The 'new' wild caught specimens also help to prove the 'not environmental' thinking.
> 
> 2. The ismart mantises are noticably smaller. The size and source issue will be tested separately, though the two 'experiments' may use the same control group or comparisons.
> 
> ...


I agree with phil that you have amazing dedication. Good luck in your experiment whatever the outcome may be.


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## kamakiri (Oct 10, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> After watching some of my previously kept _limbata_ girls searching for a place to lay, I decided that I'd try to use twigs that are closer in diameter to what I found in the wild. The rose twig that I found the ooth on was just over 3/32" in diameter and was found on a section that was nearly horizontal. Most of the branches that I was using in the critter keepers for laying were in the 1/2" to 1" range, and mostly diagonal in the 30 to 40 degree range. So with the female (Athena) that I found mating last week, I decide to give her the options of the larger branches that I used to use, some fake flower/foliage/stems, and a few thin twigs both diagonal and horizontal directly mounted to the cage top with twist ties.
> 
> As I type, she is laying on the horizontal twig twist-tied to the cage top. I'll be giving all the females similar options to get a sample set of data.


Athena made another ooth overnight. A little smaller than the first, probably due to being kept at room temps and crickets were mostly fed supervised as not to eat the ooth in her enclosure. That's a 17 day interval from the first ootheca. It was laid in front of and touching the first ooth.

Because she should have used more of her stored sperm than any of the other females I have, I'm probably going to breed Athena with the new crinkle winged male.

For the ooths that were not laid on a cloth lid of a deli tub, 5 of 7 were laid on horizontal or near horizontal surfaces. 3 of those were on twigs provided. The other two were laid on a plastic rail that borders the cage top opening/lid. One of those two is right next to a twig that runs parallel to that rail.

For the two that were not horizontal or near to it, on was on a section of twig that is at about 45 degrees on the underside laid going downslope. The other ooth was laid vertically on a wall but started on the plastic lid and jogs over the lip of the clear wall to finish. Really curious to see what that female does with her 2nd ooth.

All of the females in a cloth lid deli tub with a diagonal plastic grid ladder laid on the cloth lid. Three of those so far.


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## kamakiri (Oct 11, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Gwyn laid an ooth this weekend after mating last weekend. She didn't use the lid-mounted twig, but chose a plastic rail that borders the perimeter of the door. Same type of place that Mandy put her two ooths.


Gwyn (gray female) made her 2nd ooth overnight, only two weeks after her 1st. It is also butting the 1st ooth, laid in the opposite direction. The 'start' ends are touching.


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## kamakiri (Oct 27, 2009)

Most of the wild caught females have laid their 2nd ooths. Preference seems to have swayed to the lid-mounted twigs for this round. One of the wild caught adult males died.


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## kamakiri (Nov 1, 2009)

Gwyn (Gray) was re-mated by one of the red-black males (found as a subadult) last night. Couldn't find him this morning though they were enclosed in a small room. :huh: He must have gone under the door. My wife found him just now on the kitchen ceiling!  :lol: 

The other surprise is that Gwyn was found this morning laying her 3rd ooth. The strange thing is that of all the _limbata_ females so far, this is the first one that does not have a consistent shape or look to the previous ooths from the same female. This one happened to be much wider than the previous two.


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## kamakiri (Nov 6, 2009)

The crinkle experiment is on!  A wild caught subadult female, now adult was mated to the crinkle-winged male Wednesday overnight. She produced a small ooth on the cloth lid this morning! I used this female since she was definitely not mated in the wild, and is not part of the same population where the crinkle wings originated.

To further support the genetic cause hypothesis, none of the Mandy or Sandra mantises (from ismart&gt;hypoponera&gt;w.c. AZ) exhibit the crinkle winged males, but the one male that did have crinkle wings is from Cherisse (from arkanis ooth&gt;w.c. female CA) who was a sister of 'original' crinkle winged males that I raised. The two groups were hatched and raised in the same environmental conditions, and misted (unlike the first batch of limbata which were raised without misting).

Next, I'll have this male mated to one of his siblings, and following that, one of the Mandy or Sandra progeny. Probably one of the green females, since the pinks and yellows are being used for color-fixing 'experiments'.


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## Ntsees (Nov 7, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> The crinkle experiment is on!  A wild caught subadult female, now adult was mated to the crinkle-winged male Wednesday overnight. She produced a small ooth on the cloth lid this morning! I used this female since she was definitely not mated in the wild, and is not part of the same population where the crinkle wings originated.To further support the genetic cause hypothesis, none of the Mandy or Sandra mantises (from ismart&gt;hypoponera&gt;w.c. AZ) exhibit the crinkle winged males, but the one male that did have crinkle wings is from Cherisse (from arkanis ooth&gt;w.c. female CA) who was a sister of 'original' crinkle winged males that I raised. The two groups were hatched and raised in the same environmental conditions, and misted (unlike the first batch of limbata which were raised without misting).
> 
> Next, I'll have this male mated to one of his siblings, and following that, one of the Mandy or Sandra progeny. Probably one of the green females, since the pinks and yellows are being used for color-fixing 'experiments'.


Nice experiment going on. It would be nice to know if the crinkle-wing was due to environment (no humidity/moisture) or genes or both. I say this because it could be any factor. Not enough moisture will not allow the wing to spread evenly. Likewise, it could be genes because it has been seen in fruitflies. Another interesting thing was your other color-fixing experiment. I think it might be possible but you're probably going to have to do that for a some generations. I don't know about you but for me, I don't let new genes (mating my mantids with wild caught specimens) come into the experiment because these new genes might throw the experiment back. Then again, you'll have to deal with imbreeding if there are any. But to know the answer, you'll just have to keep at it like what I'm doing.


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## kamakiri (Nov 23, 2009)

Update:

Released a couple of females last week, but picked up another two today...Gray with faint yellow wings for the first one and Green ventral and gray dorsal for the 2nd one. Spotted over a dozen green females, but let them be.

The wild collected ooth started hatching on 11/20. Just shy of 9 weeks from when I found it. I think it was not more than 2 days laid, judging by the light color. A three day old ooth will be dark brown. 60-70 guestimated/loose count from a relatively small ooth.



Ntsees said:


> Nice experiment going on. It would be nice to know if the crinkle-wing was due to environment (no humidity/moisture) or genes or both. I say this because it could be any factor. Not enough moisture will not allow the wing to spread evenly. Likewise, it could be genes because it has been seen in fruitflies. Another interesting thing was your other color-fixing experiment. I think it might be possible but you're probably going to have to do that for a some generations. I don't know about you but for me, I don't let new genes (mating my mantids with wild caught specimens) come into the experiment because these new genes might throw the experiment back. Then again, you'll have to deal with imbreeding if there are any. But to know the answer, you'll just have to keep at it like what I'm doing.


I feel that the environmental probability for the wings is greatly reduced since this last batch.

Unfortunately, I am aware that the color fixing will take many generations to show results. My last batch had very few individuals that survived to lay ooths. Now that I have more specimen-pets to choose from and cross...I hope to have some results by pushing for 2 to 3 generations per year. The good news is that the offspring seem to quickly take after their parents...the results so far look promising to me.


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## kamakiri (Jan 10, 2010)

UPDATE:

No real news on the krinkle front...except that there aren't any randomly showing up from the Mandy/Sandy AZ sourced mantises. There are a total of 3 ooths from the local female mated with my only krinkle offsping from 2009. Ooths are laid on 11/6, 12/5, and 1/7/10. Some should be hatching from the 11/6 ooth within the next two weeks, if all goes well.

There is finally a female which resembles her mother Mandy down to the tinge of green-blue in the eyes ('Yvette' Ma2F3y). Several of the selected tan-beige nymphs are showing yellow wings without the eye color. There is also finally a male from the entire AZ group that is not showing the typical 'pepper' speckling of the fore wings.


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## yen_saw (Jan 11, 2010)

Nice log Grant. Thanks for sharing the info i enjoy reading it.


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## kamakiri (Jan 26, 2010)

This is probably going to get its own thread later, but I thought I'd mention it here first.

It seems that mantises hatched from a particular wild caught female (YM) are noticeably non-cannibalistic. I was packing some of the free mantises that I've been shipping, and at the bottom of Pot/ooth YM2-2, I noticed that there were no casualties even 4 days after start of hatching. Now I know that I *try* to keep the pots well fed from day 2, but inevitably with _limbata_ there are usually some that succumb to the proximity of tubmates at even 50+ per 32 oz pot. I can usually keep 20-25 in one of those up to about L4 without any problems...but never this many. Anyway, when I got back home I went and checked on the pots from the previous ooth (YM1-1, YM1-2, YM1-3) and while I did give many of those siblings away, the head count in those 3 pots are higher than the other pots of similar age. Perhaps double on average at the L4/L5 range where I normally start to separate.

Makes me wonder if it's genetic and all the characteristics that could be tested for...

I hope to eventually have more to report on this subject.


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