# Cilnia humeralis trouble (part 2)



## Psychobunny (Nov 15, 2011)

I have posted this before and continue to have trouble with my 2 L6 cilnia's.

One has gotten so weak, I dont expect her to be alive when I get home this afternoon!!

Either one of them has ever shed, and they will not eat, refuse any sort of hand feeding

as well (they wont even take honey).

Two other members are having the same problems with theirs and we have exchanged

notes via PM.

I have searched the web for this species and all I have found is mention that it takes 2 months

for them to shed. This seems to be the general consensus.

I have had mine now for 2 months, no shedding yet.

I keep them well vented but w/ a damp sphagnum moss substrate and kept at 90 to 95F

with above 100W reptile basking light, and a UTH (under tank heater).

I have 2 humidifiers going night and day to maintain 60% RH.

They are in homes with plenty of space to roam around and hang from branches and lid.

I mist lightly once a day.

Am I missing something??? I really like this species and very depressed that I am having such

rotten luck with them. But I know I am not the only one.

Yet lots of others have no trouble with them at all!!??

Can anyone please help!!??


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## LLCoolJew (Nov 15, 2011)

OMG. I was SO sad when I read your PM! What you are describing is the same, exact slow death as mine. It was heartbreaking for me to see such a beautiful mantid die so prematurely. It's really quite sad, as I really invested a great deal of time and (and money!) into her, and it sounds as though you have as well with all of the heat and humidity considerations you have employed. I'm really sorry that this is happening to you, too.

SInce we bought ours at the same time, from the same place, it begs the question: Does the problem lie with the species? Or with the breeder?

Either way, THIS SUCKS!!! I hope someone can help.

(( HUGS ))

---- LL ----


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## Psychobunny (Nov 15, 2011)

Thanks for the kind words.

I stayed up with her last night until 10pm and went to bed.

This morning she was hanging by 3 legs, all 3 straight as arrows from her weakness to hold up her own

weight.

She does not seem to be suffering, or I would have put her down last night.

She was so pittyful laying in my hand just looking up at me as I cleaned her wounds from cricket bites with

Q-tips.

She was so weak, the crickets tried to take advantage, but I caught it in time and there was only minor bleeding.

We both got them from Carey at Mantis Pets. And she quickly sold out.

I hope she reads this post and chimes in.


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## patrickfraser (Nov 15, 2011)

Maybe the blood line is weak? Bred to the brink? I am sorry to hear this. I am hoping to acquire this species someday. It looks like a later someday might be in order. It is a beautiful species and hope others do better with them. Is everybody with these from the same source having the same problem? If so, I would think it may be a defect with the whole lot.


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## Psychobunny (Nov 15, 2011)

patrickfraser said:


> Maybe the blood line is weak? Bred to the brink? I am sorry to hear this. I am hoping to acquire this species someday. It looks like a later someday might be in order. It is a beautiful species and hope others do better with them. Is everybody with these from the same source having the same problem? If so, I would think it may be a defect with the whole lot.


I am thinking the same thing, bred out!!

It's interesting that the people who have posted good luck with this species are from several years ago

(old post's on the UK mantis forum).

I believe Carey has a number of these that she keeps, and since we got ours from her, I would really

like to get her *honest* opinion.

For all I know, maybe all of her's have died off as well!?


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## Psychobunny (Nov 15, 2011)

Well, I just got home and checked on her.

She was still hanging on barely with 3 legs.

I waved my finger in front of her face, no head movement.

Breathing was very shallow.

I couldnt stand it anymore, watching her slowly die, so I ended it.

I said goodby and put her in the freezer to go to sleep.

Now I really feel like ######!!


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## LLCoolJew (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your loss. It's never easy. Such a beatiful bug, too.

Mine also had really shallow breathing. It was hard to watch. But I held her all day until she died in my hand, because I couldn't end it. But you did the right thing.


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## Psychobunny (Nov 15, 2011)

Thank you.

I will always remember how she looked at me while I was swabing her wounds in the palm of

my hand.

It was as if she knew I was trying to help her and did not protest in the least.

Having them die of old is one thing, but when you raise them and have them die just before

adult is very sad, and she was so friendly too  

I dont know what I will do with the remaining one.

She seems okay and allert, but I can not get her to eat!!

I know she NEEDS to shed, and I have done everything to induce it, including putting her in the bathroom

when I take a hot shower, thinking that may trigger something!! but so far, nothing.

Obviously, if she does not shed, she will not eat, and she will also die!!  

I am very upset!

P.S. another thing I am thinking. Carey has serveral out of the same ooth because she wanted to keep them and

really liked them. I have to wonder why she gave them 4 "hearts", indicating that they are easy and good "beginner

species"??!!


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## ismart (Nov 15, 2011)

Sounds like they could be from a weak stock? 95F is over kill. I would personally not exceed 85F. 60% humidity is fine. These guys are prone over eating, and becoming sick. They for the most part do not know when to stop! On occasion they will vomit when overfed. This can become a serious problem! They may continuously vomit and die soon after. This species seems more prone to sickness, and does not usually recover. I personally would not handle them to much. Larger nymphs can get stressed out easy. I would say this species is not a good beginner species. Breeding them is also no easy task. Molting can also take a very long time for older nymphs.


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## Psychobunny (Nov 16, 2011)

I actually seldome handled them, also, they are always at the top of the enclosure which is much

cooler. I make sure there are ways for them to go to the temp they like best.

I am used to doing this from keeping reptiles. You always have a warm side and a cooler side for

them to go.

Since they never ate much, they never had the vomit problem.

I have a viridis adult female who has that problem, eating too much and vomitting.

But so far in my experience keeping mantids, the African (sphromantids, viridis, lineola, etc.) are

the hardiest and have the least problems in general.

I am going to continue researching cilnia. So far, I have found no real useful info.

Personally, I think there are too many breaders out there who do not know enough about the species

they are breading.

And no, I am not talking about Carey, I know for a fact that she knows her mantids, I'm talking about the scores

of others who have found a new hobby.


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## Psychobunny (Nov 21, 2011)

My last surviving female cilnia is still hanging on, very weak, still will not eat, not even hand

feeding of cricket puree (smashed up cricket guts!!).

She has turned from bright green to a nasty puke yellow!!

I know I am doing everything right as far as care.

I am now nearly certain she (and others) came from a bad ooth or a sick mother.

Pretty sure I will have to put her down soon


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## ismart (Nov 21, 2011)

This is starting to sound more like a miss molt? It's getting weak and, dieing due to the exoskeleton never splitting. The color change is also a sign of this happening. Do you have a pic?


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## ismart (Nov 21, 2011)

It could also be the Peter Pan disease? Meaning she does not want to grow up. I have had i the past 2 Sub-adult female Cilnia that refused to grow. They would just eat enough to sustain themselves. I think they both lasted 3 months like this before they became weak and died. It was strange? There sibling were showing sings of old age as adults while they were still sub-adults!


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## Psychobunny (Nov 21, 2011)

I really think there was something very wrong with the ooth which came from Carey.

Nothing else makes sense; cooljew bought her's at the same time, from the same ooth, and

confirmed all the same symptoms as mine.

Her's died, one of mine died not long after, and now a 3rd!!

It has nothing to do with how we cared for them, they are simply defective stock!!!


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## ismart (Nov 21, 2011)

Have you spoken with Carey? Has all of Caries stock died? What is her input on what is going on? I was just throwing some thoughts out there! I was just running some scenarios that have happened to me with my stock several years ago. I'm only speaking from experience. Sorry if this does not help at all?


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## guapoalto049 (Nov 21, 2011)

Have you fed the mantids crickets from a pet store?


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## Psychobunny (Nov 23, 2011)

No, I buy farm raised cricks from folks I trust.

Besides, she hasnt eaten anything in so long I cant even remember the last time

she ate!!

She finally shed yesterday!! She was in too small a container so I had to hurry

to transfer her to a 12'' net cube.

I have been checking on her as she is still very weak, but was able to climb the wall

of the cube to get to the top and hang.

I put some honey on the net directly above her head hoping she would take in some

of it to help build up her strength.

She is now a nice light lime green, and I see wing buds.

Will attempt to hand feed her when I get home today.

Maybe some nice cricket puree !! :wacko:


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## Psychobunny (Nov 23, 2011)

ismart said:


> Have you spoken with Carey? Has all of Caries stock died? What is her input on what is going on? I was just throwing some thoughts out there! I was just running some scenarios that have happened to me with my stock several years ago. I'm only speaking from experience. Sorry if this does not help at all?


No, I have not talked to Carey yet. I am going to do that ASAP.

I am very interested in how her's are doing and hope she will be honest with me.

I have heard some breaders say that they would not try these again because they die

almost right after their adult molt.

P.S. you have a lot more experience then I, so every thing you say is helpful to me


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## ismart (Nov 23, 2011)

Thats great news!  I would leave her be another day to harden up some more, and regain some strength! This would be a bad time to stress her out!


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## ismart (Nov 23, 2011)

Psychobunny said:


> No, I have not talked to Carey yet. I am going to do that ASAP.
> 
> I am very interested in how her's are doing and hope she will be honest with me.
> 
> ...


I'm sure Carey will be honest with you. She is a sweethart!  

I know some of the things i say may sound foolish, or even down right ridiculous at times, but i would not bring them up if i had not witnessed these strange occurrences more than once!


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## Psychobunny (Nov 23, 2011)

Great news!! I am so happy.

I came home and smashed up 3 crickets (sans the legs).

Got her out of her cube w/o a struggle (she got right on my hand) and fed her the cricket

smash with a chop stick.

She was very eager and happy to eat it and didnt have to move her arms, I put it right up to her

mouth so all she had to do was chew!!

She ate a good amount, about one large cricket's worth before pushing it away.

I put her back in her cube with a nice green fake tree.

Will continue the hand feedings until her raptorial arms are strong enough to hold her own food.

She is starting to act like a normal mantis now  

The appearence of a good apitite is a very good sign, but she is not completly out of the woods

quite yet.

I will watch her for any regurgitation and just leave her alone and quiet.

She is so sweet and cooperative.


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## scaryfeet (Jan 6, 2012)

Hi there

I'm not an expert by any means, but I've had a C.humeralis die on me, and raised one successfully to sub-adult so just thought I would share my experience for anyone that is having issues.

Humidity is a killer for this species. 50% is way too high, my first died from humidity and the symptoms he had are the same as you are describing. After much contact with the breeder who had gone through many trial and error experiments to find the best environment (since there is so much conflicting advice to be found) we've found that the lower the humidity the better. I spray the sand at the bottom of my terrarium lightly, once a week. I've never had any problems with moults, feeding or illness doing this. She seems very happy at around 85 degrees too.

Regards, Jo


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## CoolMantid (Jan 6, 2012)

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS!

i have been trying to solve this problem.

This happened to my old C. Gemmatus!

She never molted to adult and would never eat.(Which lead me to think she was going to molt!)

Then they stop moving as much.

Then they suddenly die! after weeks of refusing food.

Im happy yours lived

Good Luck with them in the future,

Alex


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## Psychobunny (Jan 13, 2012)

scaryfeet said:


> Hi there
> 
> I'm not an expert by any means, but I've had a C.humeralis die on me, and raised one successfully to sub-adult so just thought I would share my experience for anyone that is having issues.
> 
> ...


That's very interesting.

All the care lists I have read on cilnia recommends a 50 to 60% humidity!! your temp jives with what I

have read however.

I mist mine every day, and the room RH is about 50%, but they are in net cubes, which get a lot of

ventilation.

How do you know for sure it was the humidity that killed your mantis?


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## Psychobunny (Jan 13, 2012)

Hertarem45 said:


> THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS!
> 
> i have been trying to solve this problem.
> 
> ...


That is exactly what is happening now with my violin.

I had 5, now only one, and it will die soon from starvation.

If I can get the cilnia (I have only 2) past that last molt to adult, they are fine and normal.


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## ismart (Jan 17, 2012)

High humidity without proper ventilation for any species can be a killer. My Cilnia are kept 60 to 70% humidity with no issues. I admit it is kinda high, but I'm paranoid of miss molts. Once they are adults they are kept lower than 50% humidity. Also keep in mind when keeping mantids in high humidity, clean there enclosures often. If you let mold, and bacteria grow. Then your just asking for trouble.


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## Psychobunny (Feb 1, 2012)

I have both of my cilnia in 12'' net cubes with 50% room RH (3 humidifiers going 24/7).

Their temp is in the 80's day and mid to high 60's night.

I vauum the poop and feeder insect remains out weekly


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## CoolMantid (Feb 1, 2012)

Psychobunny said:


> That is exactly what is happening now with my violin.
> 
> I had 5, now only one, and it will die soon from starvation.
> 
> If I can get the cilnia (I have only 2) past that last molt to adult, they are fine and normal.


If your violin's are dying from starvation why dont you try raising the heat. They wil stop feeding when it gets to cold.


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## Psychobunny (Feb 17, 2012)

Hertarem45 said:


> If your violin's are dying from starvation why dont you try raising the heat. They wil stop feeding when it gets to cold.


Too late, they are all dead now.

I kept them between 80 and 85F and use a laser therometer to monitor

actual temps inside cages.

Should they have been hotter?


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## warpdrive (Feb 17, 2012)

no, no hotter. 80-85 seems fine to me. heck, my Idolos are eating fine with temps at only 78F durring the day.

I am moving them to my exoteras shortly...one just washed out, two more to go.

Harry


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## CoolMantid (Feb 17, 2012)

My violins are at 85- 90 F and they eat fine


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## CoolMantid (Feb 17, 2012)

Also violins are not a very aggressive species so dont throw food in the cage when it is not eating. They start and stop eating


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## Psychobunny (Feb 18, 2012)

The temps were cooler at night, maybe that is what killed them!?

That cant happen anymore because a now have 2 tower ceramic thermostated heaters going

24/7.

The temps are still lower at night, but not much.


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