# Ill Orchid Mantis



## neps (Mar 6, 2010)

Early today, discovered that my female orchid mantis has some kind of infection. I've attached a couple of images. It appears to be spreading fast. She's lost the use of the infected limb; the joint in the dark area is frozen....

I feel really bad for her. Wish there was something I could do, for these are my favorite species and she was my only female. Had hoped to breed them, but looks like it's not going to happen. All my other mantids are doing quite well.

Has anyone seen this before? If so, is there any treatment possible? I am mystified. My conditions are pretty good: temps 20 to 30 C, with humidity from 60 to 75% and a diet of houseflies and crickets; misted once per day. Wish I knew what went wrong.

Thanks in advance for any light anyone can shed on this.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 7, 2010)

Good pix of the dreaded "black disease" that afflicts a lot of Orchids in the U.S. This is just an interim note to let you know that it is not due to your poor husbandry. When they wake up tomorrow, Rick and Hibiscusmile and others will tell you tales of an identical problem.


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## neps (Mar 7, 2010)

Phil, thank you for letting me know that. I do appreciate it.


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## JoeCapricorn (Mar 7, 2010)

I do not recommend following my advice, since I have no idea what I am talking about... however, maybe if you cut that particular limb off and immediately bind the wound with nail hardener (if that works at all, that is) it might prevent the spread of this infection.

But again, I have no idea what I am talking about. I want to get Orchids however, and I don't want this to happen to me. If there is a way to prevent it, I would like to know. If not... well... bummer.


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## sufistic (Mar 7, 2010)

Sorry for your sick Orchid Jeff. I agree with Phil that this is not due to your husbandry. To add, this disease also happens to Orchids in S.E. Asia. In fact, I've seen wild Orchids with the same issue. Typically, this disease will start at the joints of their limbs. I've seen some Orchids do what JoeCapricorn suggested (minus the nail hardener part of course), they will nibble on the affected areas to remove their limb and prevent the infection from spreading. Some Orchids will leave it be, probably knowing that they can't prevent the disease from spreading.

As for what causes this, I have no clue. My apologies.


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## Rick (Mar 7, 2010)

Last time I had that happen it started on her head. I'll see if I can find the thread.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 7, 2010)

All that being said, some people swear it is from the crickets, and I have to agree with them. NO Crickets!


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## Rick (Mar 7, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> All that being said, some people swear it is from the crickets, and I have to agree with them. NO Crickets!


It isn't crickets. The one I had where the head rotted off was not fed crickets. Also, when I had good luck with orchids a few years ago they ate nothing BUT crickets. I never had an issue with that batch of orchids.


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## sufistic (Mar 7, 2010)

If crickets were the cause, how would you explain wild Orchids having the same problems?


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 7, 2010)

I don't know, U mean crickets aren't in the wild





Plus I have it on good authority not to feed crickets, so there :tt3:


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## Rick (Mar 7, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> I don't know, U mean crickets aren't in the wild
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dont' think they are the best choice for them, but I dont' think we can prove right now that is the cause because my last one was not fed crickets. However, she was fed wild caught moths/butterflies.


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## Rick (Mar 7, 2010)

Here is the last one I had:


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## sufistic (Mar 7, 2010)

I personally hate giving my mantids crickets too because they basically stink and my wife is alright with me having roaches in the house now lol. But I don't think this issue is caused by crickets. Wild Orchids observed in the wild do not typically stay on bushes and on the forest floor where crickets are usually found. For the record, I've fed my Orchids wild-caught rainforest crickets and they do just fine.

And Rick I've never seen that happen before. From what I've seen, only limbs and joints are affected.


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## neps (Mar 7, 2010)

Many thanks to all of you for responding to my post and sharing your knowledge and suggestions. Certainly, I'm relieved to hear that this is not likely due to some husbandry error on my part. Sure feel badly for the mantis, however....


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## Katnapper (Mar 7, 2010)

Ugh... it's worse than I thought by your description.





Jeff, I agree with Joe that I'm not sure this is the best advice... but it's the only thing I can think of that might save your Orchid (or not, I'm afraid). At least the disease has affected only one limb, and doesn't appear to have spread to the main body or head yet. She will likely die soon anyways, so I would be inclined to try cutting that leg off close to where it attaches to the thorax. Sterilize your scissors first. I wouldn't use nail hardener or anything to seal the cut.

Like I said, it's not advice I feel comfortable giving, as I've never had the opportunity to test either the procedure or results. But the only alternative I see is watching the blackness/disease spread and eventually kill her. Sometimes drastic ailments call for drastic experimental measures, as we just don't know what causes this condition or any remedy. You'll have to let us know what you decide to do and how she progresses, either way. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

Edit: You will likely have to hand feed her if you cut off that leg; but one good thing is that Orchids respond well to hand feeding.


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## neps (Mar 7, 2010)

Thanks, Becky! I have been considering this very course of action. But, before I do so, I'm wondering if anyone else has tried amputation. If so, could you please describe the results? Did the mantis survive?


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 7, 2010)

First, crickets climb, all I am gonna say!!! and second, yes I have cut, and some make it and some don't! Like Rick showed, I have had it on the head and those do not live, sometimes legs cut off, if it is not to bad will make it, but never count on it.


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## Rick (Mar 7, 2010)

LIke she said, cutting it off might work. I would cut if off with something sharp and sterile quickly. I would also cut it about a quarter inch below the attachment to the thorax. I have cut many a mantids legs off. They usually do fine. Usually though it is a mantis that had one leg mangled from a bad molt. She will have mixed results catching food. Normally they can still do it with one front leg. However, you may want to just hand the food to her with some tongs or tweezers.


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## Ricky Ortiz (Mar 7, 2010)

Well speaking from a tarantula experience I had if you grab the mentioned leg with a pair of forceps and hold on to and pull causing the mantis to pull away herself so she actually breaks off the limb. Although I'm not sure if they work the same, as tarantulas have like a seal that they can shut off so they do not bleed out when a leg is removed but I like them to do it themselves so its a conscious effort made by them. it has been my experiance in Tarantulas that if you amputate the leg yourself that they have a much higher chance of bleeding out.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 7, 2010)

That's interesting, I have had that happen, sorry to say and never notice a problem, unless of course it was an adult, and then it did bleed. Don't member what happened after that....sorry


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## neps (Mar 7, 2010)

Thanks again, everyone, for the info and suggestions. The affected limb was removed with sharp, sterile scissors. Afterward, the stump did ooze a bit of fluid. Concerned that the poor creature would indeed die from blood loss, I applied a dressing of cyanoacrylate (superglue). This compound cures very fast, and is virtually inert after cure, so I figured that it would make a good bandage. So far, two hours later, that seems to be the case. Time will tell; I just hope that the infection, whatever it is, does not spread.... I'll keep you posted.


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## Katnapper (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm glad you did the surgery, Jeff, because I believe she would have certainly died soon if left to continue as she was. And I really hope it will stop the progression of the fatal "black disease," or complications from it. I believe no matter how she does now, at least there is some hope.

Please do keep us informed. This "disease" is a dreaded mystery to mantis keepers; and I'm sure many of us will be very interested in any updates... and of course the eventual outcome.


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## neps (Mar 7, 2010)

Thanks, Becky! Actually, I think that some light could be shed upon this situation, particularly if someone skilled in microbiology were to try to culture the pathogen from infected tissue. Unfortunately, although I'm a scientist, this is not my area of expertise. However, I do know someone currently working on a Ph.D. in microbiology, and I may contact her to see if a culture could be made. Of course, such knowledge may ultimately not be very useful at all, but must confess that I'm very curious to learn more about this.


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## JoeCapricorn (Mar 8, 2010)

neps said:


> Thanks again, everyone, for the info and suggestions. The affected limb was removed with sharp, sterile scissors. Afterward, the stump did ooze a bit of fluid. Concerned that the poor creature would indeed die from blood loss, I applied a dressing of cyanoacrylate (superglue). This compound cures very fast, and is virtually inert after cure, so I figured that it would make a good bandage. So far, two hours later, that seems to be the case. Time will tell; I just hope that the infection, whatever it is, does not spread.... I'll keep you posted.


I hope your mantis responds well to this treatment.

... this affliction, does it affect other species? Like Giant Asian mantises? Or should I not worry about it?


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## neps (Mar 8, 2010)

JoeCapricorn said:


> I hope your mantis responds well to this treatment.


Thank you! I'll be sure to post the outcome.


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## Rick (Mar 8, 2010)

Not sure about the glue though. Seems that would have some nasty chemicals in it.


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## neps (Mar 8, 2010)

Rick said:


> Not sure about the glue though. Seems that would have some nasty chemicals in it.


It does; however, it cures very fast, and is quite inert after that. Consequently, I don't think it has an opportunity to diffuse and do harm. Instead, it forms a hard seal over the wound and prevents infection or loss of fluid. So far, she's still alive and seems to be OK....


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## Katnapper (Mar 8, 2010)

neps said:


> It does; however, it cures very fast, and is quite inert after that. Consequently, I don't think it has an opportunity to diffuse and do harm. Instead, it forms a hard seal over the wound and prevents infection or loss of fluid. So far, she's still alive and seems to be OK....


Actually, I've used "New Skin" (a liquid bandage product for humans... for small cuts, etc.) successfully on mantis wounds on the abdomen with success. It even has antiseptic properties and cures/hardens forming a seal pretty quickly.


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## Rick (Mar 8, 2010)

Katnapper said:


> Actually, I've used "New Skin" (a liquid bandage product for humans... for small cuts, etc.) successfully on mantis wounds on the abdomen with success. It even has antiseptic properties and cures/hardens forming a seal pretty quickly.


That's what I was thinking of earlier. I guess we can see what happens with her.


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## neps (Mar 9, 2010)

Well, as of this point in time, she seems to be doing about as well as a one-armed mantis can. The disease has not reappeared on the affected limb, and her behavior seems otherwise normal. Appetite is also good. Fingers are crossed....


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## Katnapper (Mar 10, 2010)

Glad to hear it, Jeff... keeping mine crossed for you (and her) too!


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 10, 2010)

Took the New Skin, right outta my mouth!



Sitting here looking at it too, gotta keep it close, as my fingers split every night!


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## sufistic (Mar 10, 2010)

Glad to know that your Orchid's doing well!


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## neps (Mar 11, 2010)

Thanks for the kind words, everyone! So far, so good! I am guardedly optimistic that she's going to survive!


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## neps (Mar 18, 2010)

Just thought that I would let you know that she is still alive and doing quite well. In fact, as I mentioned in another thread, I woke up one morning this week to find that she'd deposited an ooth in her enclosure. Now, I doubt that it's fertile, but who knows?? In any event, so far, so good!


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 19, 2010)

She is giving it a good go!


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## neps (Apr 18, 2010)

Thought I would let you all know that she is still alive and well, more than a month after the amputation! So far, so good!


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## Quake (Jun 18, 2010)

My giant asian, Banana just passed last night from the black. She chewed her arm to the joint but there was still a speck of black left. She ate regularly and drank less than usual for about a week until she got a bit limp and finally passed. She died while I was asleep so upon finding her I figured proper burial was to let my turtle have her.


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