# vermiculite good or bad?



## etb99 (Oct 17, 2008)

I started with mantids last summer, got some orchids and dessicata's from a French breeder. At the time I asked him what how to best set them up. One of the things he advised is vermiculite as a substrate, because it holds water well, thereby helping to maintain good humidity. Now two days ago I saw a post on another forum saying vermiculite is bad, because larger mantids would have a very difficult time getting up if they fall on it (can't use it to hold on to). So, any opinions on this? What substrate do most of you use? I realize you can keep them without substrate, but I like the idea of something that helps maintain humidity.


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## sidewinder (Oct 17, 2008)

etb99,

I have never used vermiculite as a substrate for mantids. But it would seem to be ideal for _Hymenopus coronatus_, _Deroplatys dessicata_, and any other species requiring higher humidity levels. If what Birdfly said is true about vermiculite, I would suggest coconut fiber instead.

S-


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## Peter Clausen (Oct 17, 2008)

Substrate is an important part of a mantis enclosure. I use only two substrates for all of my mantises (often hundreds).

oothecae: coconut fiber (I buy the expandable bricks)

young nymphs: I keep these in vials and I use paper towel on the botton and up one side

older nymphs and sub-adults: paper towel and occasionally a layer of coconut fiber on the bottom if a specimen is truly important or I get that "gut-feeling" that additional moisture might be a good idea. (Some of my "special" mantis enclosures have cloth screen glued to the tops to provide additonal molting "traction".)

Paper towel is cheap and easy to replace/clean. I tend to have very little ventilation in my enclosures, containers, jars, etc. This keeps the paper towel fairly humid for a day or two after spraying. I only spray older nymphs once a week or so. With proper molting surfaces like paper towel (pinched between container and lid) or screen, humidity concerns are reduced. With lower humidity, mold and smell of frass and feeder insect parts are reduced. This translates to less frequent cleanings (work).

While not as pretty, paper towel seems the easiest.

I don't use vermiculite because it settles more loosely than other substrates. My feeder insects (usually roaches) will hide beneath it. (works great for many roaches because they love to burrow in it.) Also, larger mantises do have a bit of trouble crossing large areas of it if it's dry. Of course, if you have a ton of vegetation, etc. for your mantis to climb on, the substrate becomes less important.

I've also used peat moss. It's nice, but it tends to do the static cling thing up the sides of the containers as it dries or when I'm putting it in. Sphagnum moss is a pain because it offers a place for feeders to hide. Of course, I hand feed many of my older mantises via forceps, so it makes for nice display cases depending on your feeding methods (sphagnum moss is fine for hobbyists that feed flies, for example).


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## sidewinder (Oct 17, 2008)

What about a product called turface? Here is a link:

http://www.protimelawnseed.com/about-us/turface/

This product is used for baseball fields and in nursery plantings.

My grandmother, an orchid grower, loved this stuff for her orchid plants that needed high humidity at the roots but not soggy wet.

It looks like it would work quite well all by itself as a substrate for mantids.

Scott


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## Birdfly (Oct 17, 2008)

I'd used vermiculite for years with no problem but about 10 years ago i lost a few to being stranded on their backs, they must have been struggling to right themselves all night (as i seemed to find them in the morning) they were in a bad state and died later (from hours to days, i even found one dead on its back) those that died later seemed to have trouble with their equilibrium.

The reason for this happening imo (if they do fall awkwardly, onto their backs) is that as they are reaching about with their legs to grab some thing solid to right themselves with but only managing to grab/grip one small piece of vermiculite per foot, this is obviously much less than the mantis in weight and they didnt manage to right themselves staying stuck on there backs.

It could have happened to others and they did manage to right themselves but i only noticed the effected mantids.

Theoretically this could happen with any loose, granular substrate and its the reason why i use tissue now.

It might never effect you or your mantids but as with me, when it did, quite often it was when i was limited in numbers or sexes of a species or with an expensive or hard to obtain species, more than very annoying.

You could still use vermiculite but it might be wise to place a measured amount in the toe of an old stocking or similar, knot the end and press it into the base of the mantids enclosure, easily gripped should your mantid fall awkwardly on it and it might also limit burrowing prey types from dissapearing into it. This is too much faffing around for me so i use tissue, if i need more humidity i use more depth of it


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## sidewinder (Oct 18, 2008)

I am going to give turface a try. It would seem to have many of the advantages vermiculite offers without the downsides of being too loosely packed and light.

S-


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## Peter Clausen (Oct 18, 2008)

I grew up a few miles from the link at the Turace website. Looks like an interesting option since it's inorganic. I wonder if it retains water as long as coconut fiber. I guess it really depends how it compacts. If it is too compact, the water will not evaporate. If it is not compact enough it might dry out more quickly.

If that 50 lb bag is cheap, it might be a really great option for hobbyists. Is Turface sold at garden stores or sports stores or where?


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## sidewinder (Oct 18, 2008)

Peter said:


> I grew up a few miles from the link at the Turace website. Looks like an interesting option since it's inorganic. I wonder if it retains water as long as coconut fiber. I guess it really depends how it compacts. If it is too compact, the water will not evaporate. If it is not compact enough it might dry out more quickly.If that 50 lb bag is cheap, it might be a really great option for hobbyists. Is Turface sold at garden stores or sports stores or where?


Peter,

Turface MVP looks to be the right version of the product for our needs. It resists compaction and maintains moisture for a long time. The media size looks good for mantids too. From what I have read, it is easy to clean.

Here is a link to find who sells the product in the US and Canada.

http://profileproducts.com/sports_fields/wheretobuy.htm

The typical price I see for the a 50 lbs. bag is $27.95US. That would last a long time.

Scott


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## Dwaink (Oct 18, 2008)

sidewinder said:


> I am going to give turface a try. It would seem to have many of the advantages vermiculite offers without the downsides of being too loosely packed and light.S-


Hi,

vermiculite is a known cancer causing agent, artificial turfs are being investigated for lead. More research might be warranted.

Regards


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## sidewinder (Oct 18, 2008)

Happy Mantis said:


> Hi,vermiculite is a known cancer causing agent, artificial turfs are being investigated for lead. More research might be warranted.
> 
> Regards


Happy Mantis,

Vermiculite is *NOT* a cancer causing material. You are talking about vermiculite contaminated with asbestos. The vermiculite you can buy for horticulture use is not at issue. This is the vermiculite one would buy for use in terrariums.

Turface is a non-toxic material that has been in use on baseball fields for over 30 years. There are no health issues with Turface.

Please do some research before making claims of health issues.

Scott


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## darkspeed (Oct 19, 2008)

While I most often use paper towel in my enclosures I often times put a layer of cotton balls underneath the paper towel for more moisture retention. However in the past when I wanted the mantid enclosure to be more visually appealing for display purposes I found that pet store sand worked very well. With minimum misting I was able to keep a 20 gallon tank at or above 70% humidity. The sand had a 2 inch layer of finely ground peat moss underneath for additional moisture retention, and the ghost mantids within never seemed to have any trouble getting up off of it when they failed attempts to climb the glass. The only negative thing I ever noticed about using the sand is that at the time I was not using filtered water to maintain humidity, and since the sand I was using was black, after a while white mineral deposits started to become visible on the surface of the sand. However a quick raking with a fork easily solved that problem.


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## sidewinder (Oct 19, 2008)

Filtering water does not remove minerals from it. So you would want to use distilled water or bottled water with low mineral content.

I don't like sand because it does not absorb the water. I much prefer coconut fiber to sand for vivariums that need higher humidity.

Scott


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## Peter Clausen (Oct 19, 2008)

Vermiculite also comes in several different sizes. In the past, I've used the smaller ones mixed in with potting soil for various applications (bug and plant). I know quite a few roach breeders favor the vermiculite with larger individual pieces. These are often about a centimeter long and "vermi"-form.

It's MUCH cheaper (and healthier for most pet applications) to buy "play sand" at Home/Garden stores than the sand they offer at pet stores.

Distilled water is available and cheap at pretty much ever grocery store in my area. Rainwater works too.


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## darkspeed (Oct 19, 2008)

sidewinder said:


> Filtering water does not remove minerals from it. So you would want to use distilled water or bottled water with low mineral content.I don't like sand because it does not absorb the water. I much prefer coconut fiber to sand for vivariums that need higher humidity.
> 
> Scott


While each granule of sand may not "absorb" water, sand in its plural form sure can hold a lot of water, and keeps it from evaporating for quite a while. Nevertheless, I don't keep mantids in "display" setups anymore, so IMO nothing suits my particular needs better than paper towels and cotton balls.

As for the water, I am totally comfortable giving the mantids water from a PUR water filter. It may not filter out minerals like the expert says, but it filters out enough of the contaminants that may be dangerous to the mantis that it is no longer a concern to me.


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## sidewinder (Oct 19, 2008)

DARKSPEED,

My comment about filtered water had nothing to do with its suitability for mantid consumption or for use to increase humidity. My comment was directed at your comment suggesting that filtering the water would reduce the mineral deposits on your black sand.

The problem with wet sand versus substrate that absorb water is that you increase the risk of bacterial and mold growth with sand.

Scott


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## Birdfly (Oct 20, 2008)

Regarding the naturalistic looking mantid enclosures, you could top what ever substrate you use off with dead leaves etc (dont know the best way to steralize them, as there might be a fire risk with the micro wave?) this would also have the benefit of extra humidity and cusioning any mantids that fall, because they do some times, and perhaps save any injury and/or prolong their lives ?

I had an _Idolomantis_ fall and rupture a leg a while ago (shes old and her tarsi are failing) shes ok, its congealed and she's using it now


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## etb99 (Oct 20, 2008)

In my more naturalistic anclosures I put a layer of coco peat on top of the vermiculite. I also added oak leaves in the dessicata cage.

I wouldn't sterilize leaves in the microwave  You can heat them in an oven @ 100C for a while to kill all insects. There is no need to really sterilize. but if you want to a pressure cooker works well


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