# Idolomantis Consolidated



## sporeworld

Hey, all!

I'm going to (try to) post what I have from all my notes on Idolomantis diabolica. I hope we can put this towards a difinitive Idolomantis diabolica Caresheet. So much is opinion &amp; reports... and debatable... and desperate for citations. Maybe we can yell it out here, add pictures and evidence and structure, and get this to a digestable form (or format) we can be proud to show.

Pound away at it, and collectively, maybe we'll get these critters firmly into culture in the US.

Good luck!


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## sporeworld

*IDOLOMANTIS DIABOLICA CARE SHEET*

There is a great deal of Idolomantis husbandry still being hotly debated.

This is an attempt to collect those opinions into a simplified, one-stop shop for those considering this challenging species.

*ENCLOSURES:*

Glass, plastic or cloth cages are still in debate, but metal mesh cages in later instars seems unadvisable, as the mantids cannot get a reliable grip. A modified Exo-terra's "Flexi" is preferred by several breeders. Lining a glass or screen cage with sticks or nylon webbing is also a viable option.

_Edit: Fully screened enclosures should be avoided, unless a constant and reliable mist or drip system is in place. Humidity lower than 30% results in higher instances of mismolts._

Thin branches, or similar structures within the enclosure are CRITICAL for proper molting. Adults in particular, have a great deal of trouble making "the flip" to inflate the wings properly. A soft substrate to cushion any fall is also recommended.

"Precarious" suggests a modified "safety net" to aid in molting.

Proper ventilation and regular cleaning is always prudent. General rules of mantis husbandry apply.

*TEMPERATURE:*

80-90F, (or higher)

Maximum and minimum temperatures are still under debate. Some breeders, most notably Yen, recommend 90-100F by day, and 67-75F by night.

Christian sez: "Temperature IS an issue: our stock did well with 28-32° C (82°-90°F) on average by day, 18-22° (64°-72°F) at night. Lower temps were bad, higher temps were bad".

Some breeders have kept them MUCH hotter; 100-105F. other breeders reported success and temps of 80-85F (Angelofdeathzz) and 80-85f (Precarious).

It is uncertain whether higher heat has an beneficial effect on overall health.

Several breeders, including Yen, have noted that nymphs stop feeding at temperatures below 70F.

*HUMIDITY: *

50-60%

Advice on daily and weekly spraying is still under debate. With the exception of molting and mating, humidity above 60% may be irrelevant to overall health.

Christian sez: "60-80% RH by day and 70-100% RH for sub-adults"

*FEEDING:*

Flying Prey Preferred.

L1 and L2 can get by on large Fruit Flies (hydei) but prefer house flies. The more flutter, the better. L3 to adult prefer Blue Bottles, Moths, Bees and Wasp. If necessary, they have been known to take roaches, crickets, mealworms, grasshoppers, katydids. However, most breeders recommend sticking to flies, bees and wasps.

Edit: L1-L2 may do better on just Hydei, as House Flies and Blue Bottles tend to knock them off their perches, and generally stress them out.

Coating food items with pollen or other possible nutritional supplements is still under debate.

*IDOLO TIMETABLE (in days)*

Precarious Sporeworld

L1 to L2: 12 12

L2 to L3: 18 12

L3 to L4: 16 17

L4 to L5: 20 17

L5 to L6: 27-30 17-19

L6 to L7: ??? 20-39

L7 to L8: ??? ???

Expect between 97 - 120 days to reach adult after hatching

Females DO have an extra 8th molt.

Males live no more than about 3 months, several reports of less than a month.

Females can reportedly live as much as 6 months.

Females begin calling roughly 3-4 weeks after final molt.

Adults won't get their full colors for another 3 days after molting.

23-31 days between mating and 1st ooth

25 days between subsequent ooth production.

Expect from 3-6 ooths from each female.

Ooths hatch after incubating 51-54 days.

Typically, expect an average of 24 nymphs per ooth, with hatches as high as 50 reported from some breeders.

*BREEDING NOTES*

Several breeders recommend an increase in temperature, from 100-105F.

Breeders report various signs that a female is receptive, including "lift her wings slightly, and start pumping her abdomen" (Entomo-logic) and "goes ape by flipping the wing" (Yen).

101-105f seems to be the ideal breeding temp.

Removing the male from the female's enclosure for 1-3 days before mating, may help encourage breeding.

A strong argument has been made by "Entomo-logic" to introduce the MALE to the female's enclosure. However, this, the reverse, or even a neutral enclosure are all still under debate.

Other breeders, most notably "Gaupoalto40", recommend boosting the humidity to "tropical" during breeding.

Yen reports that day and night cycles seem to be important, as the adults tend to molt in darkness. He also noted that younger nymphs molted at first light.

Yen reported about 60% successful molting to adult.


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## sporeworld

(Blushes).

I'm waiting for the sparks to fly...

Round One: "To HEAT or NOT to Heat".

(Can't get the spacing to work on the Timetable. Have to approach that differently).


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## animalexplorer

Temps 80-85°F. Humidity 60-70% daytime worked out fine for me. The humidity was a little hard to maintain in the daytime as the heat from the bulbs were constantly bringing it down. I was misting 2 times a day one around 12 afternoon and one in the evening about an hour before turning the lights out. Humidity levels varied between 70-80 at night, it wasn't exact but pretty close. I use a enclosed glass terrarium to help stablize the variables. The top has a screen mesh but that was covered with a piece of cardboard with a small hole, to fit a hockey puck halogen light. The light hood houses a repti glo 5.0 UVB bulb which covers the other half but allows air circulation. It worked but I was not always there to mist at the exact time so I'm investing in a ultrasonic humidifier which will be activated by a timer switch.

I like Precarious's safety net idea. Somebody else on this forum had a pretty good idea that I ended up using. The terrarium setups that I acquired have these natural looking styrofoam backgrounds. As soon as the mantid started to go through the final molt I selected branches and would poke them into the styrofoam as to create a ladder for the mantids to grab and flip.


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## angelofdeathzz

Very spot on caresheet Bud! The only thing I would add that I've found to be VERY important is to have straw to pencil size branches mounted to the top of the lid horizontally close together(at least one per inch) running the length of the top, it's a little bit of work but I've had no falls from molting since I adopted this practice. Precarious and I have shared notes on theses guy's for almost a 3/4 of a year now and this one is a MUST if you want them to get to adult in one piece for Both of us. They stick to the real wood twigs(leave the bark on) so well when they molt you will have to almost use a chisel to get the shed skin off the twigs, falling seems to be a big problem for most people that try them, this will help clear that up...

Besides having a lot of humidity (60-90+%) when they molt anything else I would add is minor.

[Edit] I forgot to say, bake the branches in the oven at 175-190 for an hour or two to kill off any fugus or pesties and it will dry to wood up, but I try to start with dead branches.

Nick


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## sporeworld

That sort of confirms what I suspected. None of the skins from my Idolos stayed in place. Artificial, plastic plants and metal mesh didn't allow them to "dig in". They could only "hook around". Makes sense.


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## sporeworld

Anyone notice any feeding patterns? For instance, one large food item every other day? Something like that...?


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## PhilinYuma

Great idea about the horizontal twigs and one that is completely new to me. Idolomantis, generally imported from Europe, has been around for years in the US but Yen has been the only person here, that I know of, to breed them. He sold nymphs which no one apparently bred. This new push with a bunch of nymphs from captive bred parents and members already experienced in raising them, may be the break through we have needed and promote the new trend towards breeding mantids in large cages with heat, light and humidity that more closely simulate natural conditions.

Have at it!


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## sporeworld

Certainly appreciate all the contributions.

I think this is what I'm (currently) proposing for an ideal L2-l6 Idolomantis enclosure (below), noting that the last molt may require an isolated (no food, no neighbors) Molting Chamber (still looking for suggestions on that one). Certainly, others (Gurder comes to mind) have done without the need for such intensive care. But I'm over-compensating on this small population, until I have better numbers to work with. Also, the glass enclosures let me control humdity and temps much better.

A very, very big enclosure would be great (essentially a green house). Not an option for me at the moment.

_Notes:_

*CLIMBING SURFACES*

I still need to add the sticks to the top screen (as mentioned above), or similar gripping structure.

I've eliminated vertical climbing material to avoid awkward mismolts.

From L4-L6 I'll need to add the thin branches that seem to be so critical (not so much from L1-L3).

*HUMIDITY*

I have a Repti-Fogger prepared to fog it irregularly. Probably on a timer until I figure out the right settings.

I'm considering a "Big Dripper" as an alternative.

Might have a glass of plastic top to drape over at night, if needed.

*HEAT*

I have a ZooMed heat pad that I may use for night time temps (if needed).

I will experiment with na "Exo Terra Terrerarium Heater Cable" this weekend.

*FEEDING*

I've added 2 bung-ports (no idea what to call them) to the top for adding food.

Front doors slide open, or can be completely slid out. Holds in House Flies and larger, but FF's still get out (so not ideal for L1, as i still tend to top them of with Hydei).

*SUBSTRATE*

Currently using Carfresh Natural Pet Bedding. I can simply pour in huge amounts of water - it's crazy absorbant! Ideally, I can ShopVac out debris every other week, or hand clean, if needed.

Ideally, the bottom would be wide-screened, and i could just lift up the entire enclosure, and the debris woould fall through the cracks. Needs work.


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## angelofdeathzz

Sporeworld:

L1's yes, L2 I do 1 a day or 2 every other. but as they go on in instars they eat more and more maybe x2 per instar or close to that (talking about flies only).

Phil:

Thanks, I've done it for a while now, I was thinking about something better than any mesh type for the grip to limit the fall but Precarious showed me this Idea long ago, so he gets the credit! I use Lilac branches(many sub branches) vertical and on the top to climb on and the combo works like a charm.


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## angelofdeathzz

The pic above Is awesome looking but you would run a high risk of molting to low with all the stuff close to the bottom, can't have much on the bottom 8-10 inches or so of the tank, there not all to good at picking the best spot to molt

Here's a shot of my not all the way finished 24x18x18 (can't tell how big yours is, Looks big)Exo-Terra set up.


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## animalexplorer

I like this terrarium's dimensions better than the tall ones I got. It has more realty space on top allowing the mantids more room to walk around if they're up top. What size is this one Nick?

60 x 45 x 45 cm / 24” x 18” x 18” (WxDxH)?


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## sporeworld

God bless lilacs!

If I'm imagining this right, the ideal molting cage would be a barrel made out of twigs. No vertical surfaces, gentle sloping curves, everything gripable. But nothing in the center to interfere with molting. Maybe stuff the bottom with a few inches of foam, or something to break the fall that they can't get tangled in...?


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## sporeworld

I want to use a bunch of your Idolo pics and cage ideas for references on this and the caresheet. If you're willing to bless their usage, send me a PM and I'll add you to this post. Not sure how permissions work if the pic is already posted elsewhere. Thanks!

Permissions:

Sporeworld (duh)


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## angelofdeathzz

animalexplorer said:


> I like this terrarium's dimensions better than the tall ones I got. It has more realty space on top allowing the mantids more room to walk around if they're up top. What size is this one Nick?
> 
> 60 x 45 x 45 cm / 24" x 18" x 18" (WxDxH)?


Yes this is a 24x18x18 you can pick one up at Joshsfrogs.com for a good price! (w/free shipping was my deal)


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## animalexplorer

Thanks! I'll check them out.


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## guapoalto049

I'm just reinforcing what everyone has mentioned. Space is a concern with the species, more so than we think. They are probably the least-nimble mantid I've ever kept, and this is a problem when combined with their territoriality and size. A greenhouse would be perfect, but that's just not in the cards for most of us.

I got 3 of Yen's L2 Idolos last summer/fall, one mismolted at ~L6 from a small patch of metal screen. It got completely out of its old skin then fell. As well all know, a teneral mantid isn't exactly iron man.

Learned my lesson and the others were successful. Great point on the real twigs, they worked wonders for me. I think bark would also be good as a background or a secondary layer behind a twig roof.

I don't see temps and humidity being very constrained with this species, I kept them bone dry and 80F and didn't have problems getting out of the skin for any of the 3. It did make sense to raise the humidity a great deal at subadult into adulthood. I've never seen variations in Idolo colors, so I assume this stark contrast in color corresponds to a stark contrast in living conditions.

BTW, are there any other species out there that have such a predictable coloration/dramatic change into adulthood?


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## angelofdeathzz

Personally, I would like to hear from Henry on this post, as I feel he is every bit as good as me at raising and get this rare beauty to adult as me, plus his video is second to none !!!!

Not to knock any other post so far, but this guy know's more about mantis and photography than he lets on sometimes trust me on that


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## Precarious

Good to see all of this data finally coming together!

All I would add is that humidity is likely especially important at the early instars since young nymphs can retain very little fluid in their bodies. I have watched many molts and it seems the body fluids they use to internally lube the process are more important than relative humidity. As they mature you may get away with less humidity so long as you give them a chance to drink daily (but I don't risk it).

Here is a photo of a female Ghost hours before adult molt and the fluids can be seen seeping from the pores on the raptor claws.






Smaller nymphs can't afford to lose this vital liquid to dry air, so to be extra safe keep them in high humidity.

Personally, I mist all my mantids daily, every species, and I see them all drink. It may be certain species can go without it when living in an environment lacking water, but they all will drink regularly if given the chance. Because of this I very rarely see a mantid stuck in a molt, and when I do it's a very young nymph.

I'm going to make a big post on the threat pose with close up video of the legs making the sound. Should get to that over the next few days. In the mean time here are a few photos.


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## sporeworld

I pointed it out in a different thread, but the fern-like plants in the picture above (somewhere) are fantastic for L1 &amp; L2. They just love it. About half are content to stay there and not just hang from the screen. They also like to wander around on it, and I suspect it will make a good molting surface. And it holds beads of water (briefly), but I haven't seen them drinking. Not sure I ever have, come to think of it. Hmmm....


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## angelofdeathzz

As for the nymph's drinking, I see mine drinking from there raptors when I mist, and sometimes they reach for sticks or leaves to take a drink, but I don't think they need to drink every day as the flies are juicy(-:


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## sporeworld

Here's something I've noticed.

All my current nymphs were born at the same time, traveled the same distance, and are kept in the conditions. But they've all had RADICAL different molting times. Almost a week's difference - 4 still haven't molted to L2. Temperature variance explained anout a 24 hours difference.

The remaining hold outs ARE all eatting, but aren't as aggressive, and are much pickier. They challenge a crawling ff trying to force it to fly. If it doesn't, they won't eat it. I also notice these 4 being much less commital with what they DO catch. A sibling at L2 will pick a BB out of mid air and struggle for 15 minutes before it gets the head bit off. His L1 sibling lets a tiny Hydei go if it struggles too much. One caught and let go a small lacewing 4 times, and finally gave up. Fascinating.

I'm going to watch to see if it's a behavior that sticks with them through each instar, and if there's any gender bias.


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## Precarious

I just watched a female molt into an adult in only 35% humidity. A dangerous experiment but she got through it with no problems. She even picked a good spot in the enclosure. This suggests to me that giving them a chance to drink daily helps balance the danger of temporary drops in humidity.


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## sporeworld

Yeah, more and more, I'm thinking humdity is largely irrelevant for Idolos - particularly in later stages. Several reports of "bone dry" moltings. Looking at some of the crazy photos you guys have put up, with producing their own fluids and beads of sweat or whatever that was called, makes me think that a moisture rich diet may be a far more important factor. Or maybe just an environment that doesn't evaoprate their own mechanisms too quickly.

Thanks for the (risky) experiment, and for posting it.


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## sporeworld

Observation without a conclusion:

Three of my Idolo L1 nymphs were trailing 2 weeks behind their now-L2 hatch-mates.

All three seems to have less interest in eatting than the others. One finally molted today. Another one died. The one that died is the intersting story.

This nymph ("Jack" the Ripper) would stalk and follow prey, but would only eat their heads off. He never ate past the time they stopped resisting. His belly stayed full (even after death), but this feeding behavior was very curious. No prey items were found living in the container after death.

Any thoughts...?


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## angelofdeathzz

I think the heads are the "sweet spot" I've had many just eat the heads and disregaurd the rest, I'm like "Hey you pick that up and eat it"! :lol: 

This is the main reason I don't give the L1-L2 BB's yet, as there would be a clutter of half ate bodies on the bottom of the tank in no time...

I would rather see them eat 2 houseflies than half of a Blue bottle, make sence?


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## Precarious

Sounds like the Idolo equivalent of the picky kid who only eats bread with the crusts cut off.

Or possibly, if the abdomen looks full, it was only eating enough to top off what its belly could hold.

I don't suggest using BBS as steady feeders at L1. Makes more economic sense to fill them up with a single BB then feed smaller prey after so they will eat more consistently. I don't know if it matters in the long run, but I always fill my nymphs after a molt (or hatching) then try to maintain a full belly from there with maintenance feedings.

I've also seen mantids kill feeders just because they are annoyed by them.


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## sporeworld

Precarious said:


> I've also seen mantids kill feeders just because they are annoyed by them.


Yeah, I kinda thought that might be playing into it as well, although to consistently chase down and kill irritating house mates seems particularly psychotic.

And I don't do BB's until L3, unless I run out of HF's. Just not worth it.


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> Yeah, I kinda thought that might be playing into it as well, although to consistently chase down and kill irritating house mates seems particularly psychotic.


Maybe you had a serial killer on your hands.

Was he a loner? Was he the quiet type that just tries to blend in? Did he have 'mommy issues'?


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## sporeworld

He DID tend to hang out in the grassy knolls.

On a serious note, I started adding screen to 2 or 3 sides of the aquarium to help them climb to the top. I realize in later instars, this will be a problem, as they'll try to molt from it, but at these early instars, I think it's worth it. The one I HAVEN'T screened up yet has constantly got one or two nymphs struggling in the corner trying to hopelessly climb the sheer glass. :-(


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## sporeworld

Update:

No surprise, the 3rd one sort of fell asleep while molting. Trapped in skin and doing nothing. I pulled him out of his skin with tweezers (slipped right out), but he'd already given up the fight. Humidity was about 80%, and temp was about 75f. Alone in his private deli-cup, so no atmospheric explaination.

I'm beginning to think when they get that far behind, they're just genetic dead-ends. I'll keep an eye on the one that molted sucessfully and see if it's indicative of anything...

(stay tuned)


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## PhilinYuma

Sporeworld said:


> Update:
> 
> No surprise, the 3rd one sort of fell asleep while molting. Trapped in skin and doing nothing. I pulled him out of his skin with tweezers (slipped right out), but he'd already given up the fight. Humidity was about 80%, and temp was about 75f. Alone in his private deli-cup, so no atmospheric explaination.
> 
> *I'm beginning to think when they get that far behind, they're just genetic dead-ends.* I'll keep an eye on the one that molted sucessfully and see if it's indicative of anything...
> 
> (stay tuned)


Good lord, Sporeworld! You don't have any kids, do you?

"O.K. kids, after lunch we'll all drive down Highway 8 to the desert. I'll let you all out and drive 20 miles down the road and pick you up in four hours. And if little Mabel falls behind again, just leave her there. It's time to tie off some of those genetic dead ends!"


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## sporeworld

Here's the current L1-L3 Idolomantis Enclosure. Way open to suggestions...


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> Here's the current L1-L3 Idolomantis Enclosure. Way open to suggestions...


Looks nice. How many you got in there?


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## sporeworld

The way Idolo's huddle, I could probably fit about 50 L1's. But the more crowded it is, the more risk of disruptions during molting. I think 20 is about right.


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## angelofdeathzz

Here is a couple of my chicken coupe,  about 55-60 in there, they spread out more than the pics show, if they fall by a rare chance they hit the moist moss and climb back up like little monkey's to the mid or upper part of the tank. I can't watch them enough! I see like 2-3 molt a day with not one mis-molt so far...





















I did show some of these before so bare with me.


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## angelofdeathzz

Thanks man, I did forget to say, there's 4- 23 watt curly floro's in the top and a 16 watt heat pad that's always on in the bottom.


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## sporeworld

Looks great! I'm glad we're doing a few things differently. Should be able to debunk a few myths out there.

I've got screen on all but one of my glass sides. I'm making the argument that while molting from the sides IS problematic, not being able to grip the glass when needed might prove more-so. I'd also like to find out what makes a nymph think molting from a 90 degree angle is a good idea in the first place! Estupido!


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## sporeworld

angelofdeathzz said:


> Thanks man, I did forget to say, there's 4- 23 watt curly floro's in the top and a 16 watt heat pad that's always on in the bottom.


Great! I'm starting my first experiemnt with heat rocks tonight. I'll let you know how THAT goes...


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## angelofdeathzz

At night I think 70-74 is a good spot to be at. I'm testing that zone?


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## sporeworld

I'm a little dissapointed in the heat rocks (needs more testing), but for keeping the minimum temps up, I'm getting really good results from my new Hydrafarm Heat Mats. Pretty cheap as heat sources go.

http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=3347

It says (and seems to) keep temps about 10-20 degrees above ambient temp.

I'm also enjoying a new thermometer - a Taylor Indoor/Outdoor Thermometer &amp; Hygrometer. Reltively cheap, and my favorite part is the probe that I can raise and lower to find out what's REALLY going on in there!

http://www.taylorusa.com/environment/hygrometers/digital-indoor-outdoor-thermometer-hygrometer.html

I'll keep y'all posted...


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## sporeworld

Here's the setup I'm currently considering for my L4-L6 Idolos. I'm trying to create an alternative to thin branches randomly spread around. I think that a curved continuous weave of this sort of vine might function as molting place AND safety net (once I figure out the right shape). Thoughts...?

This has all my usual bells: Feeding port on top, track lighting above, and thick-grip shelf lining in the back. Even put a bit of bamboo in the corners (to be replaced with something with more texture later.


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> Here's the setup I'm currently considering for my L4-L6 Idolos.


Looks really nice! I think the leafy vine is a great idea. What kind of screen is that up top? You may want to cover that with mesh because you know they will find the worst possible place they can. I get mesh laundry bags at the dollar store that are perfect to cut up.

What brand tank is that? I'm about to buy another so I'm weighing all options.


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## micar511

i think you can do better - i don't mean that rudely - but being on here for two weeks...i already know that. Heat rocks - don't even bother - they are so unpredictable - in the most drastic ways - both ends of the spectrum. It will feel, "sorta hot," not sure, doubt yourself, and then can go mega hot - and has been known to burn reptiles in the past - I've used one. This was for a 4ft. long nile monitor though. They say don't even try snakes - yup, all and any snake should not be enclosed/caged with a heated rock - too dangerous. Heat matss are where it's at. If I had more use - I'd break out my huge kane heatmat made for mother pigs and used for big constrictors - has the temp gauge and all but this was and still is well worth the money. Screwed it on top of a hiding spot/cave so the heat came down on him in a borough. And you are dealing with really low wattage compared - but they have been so much more efficient and really good for any living animal I've owned.

I'm using Nick's style - L2s - they are in a ten gallon right now - took dead branches and material from climbing hydrangeas and honeysuckles - one is the strongest climber - has awesome grip itself, the other just twirls and climbs - so the pieces are pliable and decent length - durable and instantly made a canopy that was originally an issue I wasn't looking forward to dealing with. Next cage - gotta see what i have - maybe only a 40 gallon tall and 40 gallon breeder. i'm into the aesthetics as much as you have shown by way of effort and nice display, portrayals - so no matter what don't lose that. I'm going to concentrate on a pretty intense and serious canopy/top screen, but just molted so I have some time.

How big is that tank by the way. My depth must be off.

Michael


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## micar511

more wood the more humidity


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## sporeworld

Yeah, certinaly needs more work. Really just concentrating on the looping vine right now. Essentially I'm trying to make king-sized excellsior.

I don't beleive, at this point, that they sink their feet in when molting, so much as use their legs to form a big "C-Clamp". So I'm experimenting with materials more complex - so slipping their grip will just ratchet down to the next grip.

The cage is 30" wide. The top is nylon screen, but for L6 and up, I'll put in some version of the twig ceiling. I got a rope net to experiment with on at least one of the cages. What I DON'T like about the "Twig Tops" (we should patent that), is how much it cuts down on the light.

Speaking of the light, the track lights (you can't see them in this pic) are by far the most consistent source of heat I've found (105f just under them, 75-85 at the bottom parts). If I put heat mats on these at all, it'll be to control night temps, but living in SoCal in the (near) summer, I don't think that will be an issue.

It's hard to resist spraying them (habit) but I've yet to see them drink. I'm routinely soaking the substrate to keep up humidity.


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> What I DON'T like about the "Twig Tops" (we should patent that), is how much it cuts down on the light.
> 
> It's hard to resist spraying them (habit) but I've yet to see them drink. I'm routinely soaking the substrate to keep up humidity.


I don't notice much drop in light through my twigs, but that would depend, of course, on how thin they are and tightly you pack them. Was definitely a concern of mine since I shoot video in the tanks.

We'll do a limited experiment on misting. I'll be misting mine daily. We'll see if that makes any difference.


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## angelofdeathzz

All of sporeworlds stuff so far is great (amazing really  ) for L4 and under but you may need more for the upper part of the spectrum. Like uppper things to molt from(not screen) and things(sticks) to climb from after the molt when there bigger. OR do as you want, this is just how it work's well for me???


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## sporeworld

Yeah, I think I struggle (emotionally) with accepting that they MUST be separated at subadult to avoid molting problems. In large numbers that just becomes impractical. I'm hoping to develop something more efficient. I'd like us to leave a kind of legacy behind of how we did it, and how it can be done again (reliably).

I'm convinced that anyone can raise a small number with the info we have now. But an epic, eye-pleasing communal setup still seems just out of reach.

I've seen some massive branch-filled enclosures ("Gurder's" comes to mind) with 10 or 20 in each, which has a history of success. I think, if I had to house 20 subadults tomorrow, I'd just buy a giant screen tent, fill it with branches, throw some heat lamps on it, and take a nap.


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> Yeah, I think I struggle (emotionally) with accepting that they MUST be separated at subadult to avoid molting problems. In large numbers that just becomes impractical.


You can put in all the branches you want but they will always climb to the highest point. I've found that a 12"x12" area is only sufficient for 2 adults. Any more and they are overcrowded. You can fit 3 subs in that space but you'd have to separate those nearing molt. By my estimation you'd need 10 square feet of roof to keep 20 adults. You may want to try tall net cages laying down.


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## guapoalto049

Possible Idolo cage

(courtesy of Bioquip)

I'm waiting for someone to get one of these bad boys. I'd give it a go if I had more time on my hands!

Didn't someone put their Idolos in a greenhouse on the European forum and have lots of success?


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## sporeworld

Hahahah! Yeah - that is EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Well, threatening...

A big factor (for me) is VIEWABILITY. With a tent, I'd need to put glass on at least one side.

I'm also beginning to think WIDE is great , but HIGH is bad. Just more distance to fall, more area to climatize and more food to be stocked.

Someone (Precarius?) had their Idolo on Ficus. How did they do on that?


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> I'm also beginning to think WIDE is great , but HIGH is bad. Just more distance to fall, more area to climatize and more food to be stocked.
> 
> Someone (Precarius?) had their Idolo on Ficus. How did they do on that?


Absolutely! That's the first thing I thought when I looked at that giant net cage. It should only be 1/3rd that height.

My girls love hanging on the Ficus. I'll bet you could raise them on a freestanding plant if it was out of reach of any walls and if you could figure out how to feed them. I let them on the ficus for a day or two at a time since they need to be in a cage to feed on flies, but in that time they only leave the ficus to climb directly on the window screen if the window is open.

Maybe a Ficus or other small tree-like plant inside a tall net cage with something around the base to break a fall? Mesh stretched over a simple frame would do the trick and you'd be able to water the plant through it. I may have to try that. Then even if they molt from the top they could reach down to the Ficus. The only concern would be humidity so placement and time of year would be an important factor. I have a window in one of my non-air conditioned rooms that may be perfect for this.

Another option would be a net cage placed over just to top half of the ficus by cutting out the bottom of the cage, then tying it tight around the trunk. That way you'd have a zipper door and a viewing side. Personally I prefer viewing through glass. Always will.

Of course, net cages are not the ideal material for later instars so maybe one of those vinyl screen Reptarium enclosures would be better. Again, viewing becomes an issue.


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## sporeworld

Yeah, I have about 6 of those - one really huge one (6'x4', i think). They were recomended by someone in the UK, and I already had them for my silkmoths. (Ah, the olden days. No tracklights yet, and my file cabinets were so new, I still had the keys attached to them...)






I've got dozens of very large ficus, and tossing one or two in a tent would work. I'm still hoping to come up with a landscape (horizontal) version instead. Otherwise, rows of Exoterras might be the solution.


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## sporeworld

I could probably just modify my screen cages the way you did with the glass ones (twigs on the top and sides) for the same effect. This would probably house 12-18 sub adults.


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## angelofdeathzz

Very nice, are those all real plants in there? They would be a great way to display adults, I'll need to do something like this for another species I have on the back burner  (phone home)

I did pick up a 65 gallon Reptarium enclosure some time ago, but I must say I was disappointed on the viewing as the black mesh was darker than I thought when I ordered it, maybe a clear plastic panel would brighten it up so I can at least see in there from 5-6 ft away.


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## micar511

Check out the others from the same website - might be more suitable 

I kinda like these - same place as the big one posted earlier

hmmmm....mmm....mmhmmm - possibility. then again who knows - whatever works - and not sure if it's big enough.


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## Precarious

micar511 said:


> Check out the others from the same website - might be more suitable


Yes, those are standard net cages. The weave is too tight for later instars. That's why I suggested the Reptariums instead.


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## myzticalboi

I've been reading all of your guys post and doing my own setup. Right now my idolos are in a net cage with thin branches everywhere plus a ceramic heater on top so I can sleep at night. When they larger will switch net cages for them, but now they are still at L3s.


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## Precarious

joeho said:


> I've been reading all of your guys post and doing my own setup. Right now my idolos are in a net cage with thin branches everywhere plus a ceramic heater on top so I can sleep at night. When they larger will switch net cages for them, but now they are still at L3s.


Be careful to keep humidity up in that net cage. Especially if you've got heat on them. In my opinion, humidity is more important than extra heat for nymphs. You'll probably have to use a humidifier in the room or watch for when they are ready to molt and put them in a separate high humidity enclosure when the time comes. Just my opinion. Let us know how it goes.


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## sporeworld

Yeah, in something that large you could just put your humidifier IN the cage!

I think the mesh is about as relevant as glass in terms of wether they can climb or molt on it. If it's a big enclosure, and they have lots of twigs, they mesh they CAN'T grip is probably better than one they CAN.

Those walk-in net cages ARE pretty tempting...


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> I think the mesh is about as relevant as glass in terms of wether they can climb or molt on it. If it's a big enclosure, and they have lots of twigs, they mesh they CAN'T grip is probably better than one they CAN.


Perhaps I should clarify.

The adults and subs CAN grip the tight mesh. I have my adults in one right now and they have no trouble hanging from it. The problem is they can't grip it tight enough to molt from. According to others' reports when they try they often fall. They need something they can wrap their feet around.

Also, if they try to step onto a tight mesh after molt (stepping off the skin) they damage their feet, fall, and won't be able to grip anything after. Once the new carapace has hardened it's no problem. Try it while it's soft and the tiny hooks rip right off.

You are welcome to try it if you need to see it for yourself, but I don't recommend it. I watched my first adult Heterochaeta sp. suffer the same fate. I installed loose mesh and the remaining two molted to adult with no issues.


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## angelofdeathzz

All this is why I use real sticks with the bark still on, its the Best and its free, I do think this it what they molt on in the wild...

I don't see a need to reinvent the wheel, lol


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## sporeworld

Precarious said:


> Perhaps I should clarify.
> 
> The adults and subs CAN grip the tight mesh. I have my adults in one right now and they have no trouble hanging from it. The problem is they can't grip it tight enough to molt from. According to others' reports when they try they often fall. They need something they can wrap their feet around.
> 
> Also, if they try to step onto a tight mesh after molt (stepping off the skin) they damage their feet, fall, and won't be able to grip anything after. Once the new carapace has hardened it's no problem. Try it while it's soft and the tiny hooks rip right off.
> 
> You are welcome to try it if you need to see it for yourself, but I don't recommend it. I watched my first adult Heterochaeta sp. suffer the same fate. I installed loose mesh and the remaining two molted to adult with no issues.


Just to re-clarify (or redirect? or restate?), is it our collective advice to DIS-courage ANY molting on the sides - whether that side is screen OR twigs? I know I've witnessed nymphs distress at glass walls they couldn't climb. To that end, if designing a custom enclosre, would you/we consider having sloping sides, removing ALL vertical planes?


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## myzticalboi

Sporeworld said:


> Did you mean to say "...so I can sleep at night" or "they" can sleep at night...?


Lol. For me to sleep. I can't sleep with the lights on. So the ceramic bulb works magic. I've had two molts to L3 with 40-50% humidity, but I noticed that they are so darn fragile! One lil bump or scratch they lose a limb here and there.


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> Just to re-clarify (or redirect? or restate?), is it our collective advice to DIS-courage ANY molting on the sides - whether that side is screen OR twigs? I know I've witnessed nymphs distress at glass walls they couldn't climb. To that end, if designing a custom enclosre, would you/we consider having sloping sides, removing ALL vertical planes?


None of mine have ever tried to molt from the side of my enclosures, but that's because I use glass. I had one side all vines and twigs and they didn't try to molt from there either. I can't be certain of the situation in which others report molts from sides of net cages but it could very well be due to overcrowding.

I don't think there is any necessity to eliminating vertical walls. Nor do I think it is much of a concern if nymphs struggle trying to climb glass. So long as there is something along each wall they can climb I don't see a problem. One vertical branch running from floor to ceiling is sufficient.

My advice would simply be not to include surfaces they can grip, but not well enough to molt from, or that will damage their soft feet after molt (unless you move them to a separate enclosure during molt). You can shape an enclosure however you like if you follow those rules. I don't think there is a solution to their tendency to choose pore locations to molt other than an arched ceiling as you have suggested in the past. That may be surefire if surfaced with the right materials.

And I'd like to point out I am by no means an authority, but I am a very astute observer. These suggestions I'm making are only my personal conclusions based on my limited experience, which is one generation of Idolo from L1 to adult. So, since there is no authoritative rule book to follow, do what makes the most sense to you.  I just don't want to come off sounding like a know-it-all.


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## sporeworld

Precarious said:


> "... others report molts from sides of net cages but it could very well be due to overcrowding."


I watched this happen with one of my adults. It was excrutiating. Just sort of oozed out of the skin, fumbled the "flip" and collapsed into a useless pile. He lived about a week with wrinkled wings, but that's it. He only had one roommate, so it wasn't overcrowding. Just a bad decision, and I didn't identify the risk.



Precarious said:


> "...concern if nymphs struggle trying to climb glass."


Seen this, too. A few times as L1-L3, none after that. So, might be moot.



Precarious said:


> "...arched ceiling as you have suggested in the past."


Yeah, I'm still thinking a molting cage might be ideal. Then adults can go communal in a tent for all I care, after that.



Precarious said:


> "I just don't want to come off sounding like a know-it-all."


  Oh, if only someone DID know it all!!! I figure, if you got a nymph to adult, you've earned the right to chime in! At this point, it's a lot of speculation, anyway.

(I don't think I did this "quote" stuff properly. Fingers crossed...)


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## sporeworld

I'm more and more inclined to agree with the people suggesting that humidity, for this species, is largely irrelevant. I'm watching these guys at L2, L3 and L4 molt in the low 20's without incident. And quickly. I haven't timed it yet, but I don't remember seeing another species flip out of their skin this fast.

I think, adding the humdidity probably doesn't hurt anything, though. And I've been testing them at different times of day and temps to see if they'll drink. No interest. Different species in nearly the same situation, and all the nymphs hoover up the droplets. Not scientific, but pretty strong indications.


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## Colorcham427

My plans, opinions and experience so far with this awesome species:

What really moves me is their dramatic change from L1 to L2. L2 stage, they show so much beautiful purple and violets, I love how stunning they appear under a good day light bulb meant for reptiles. And as adults, we all know how amazing they look!  

I have had many nymphs drink in front of me. Never as eager as Lobata or Popa, some species just aren't sponges lol.

Keeping cages clean should always be part of your schedule.

Keeping your feeder bugs clean should always also be part of your schedule.

I strongly feel this species does best on very dried branches, twigs with lots of scratchy coating for good stability during molting.

I had an ooth hatch the other day, and I am going all the way with plastic/glass container/tank with lots of carefully spaced out twigs VS. my original setting which was plastic sides with a mesh for a ceiling. I feel that if one is using mesh for a ceiling, the larger the idolo is, the more layers of mesh is required for their claws to cling to. Their claws are rowed up, not bunched together like a hand. I made the mistake by using one single sheet of mesh, these larger nymphs L5 + should have a round, or at least thick layer of something to hold on to while they are squiggling their way out of their exoskeleton.

Space is always a good thing to consider with Mantids in general, due to molting and catching prey situations.

The larger they get, the more humidity for my guys. These guys get heavy, and they're truly oddly shaped, lots of difficult movements while staying clung to something. Upping the humidity just seems to be the most sensible thing to do when they get larger and have more of a struggle.

Ever since I found out the seasonal changes in their home land, the ones that make it to adult hood, are the ones that hatch out and are going towards adult hood as the rain starts to come. L1 - L3 nymphs do more than fine without much humidity.

These guys seem to hide stress and sickness well, so well that once they are 100% dead, it happens within a day, not so much a gradual 10% per day. It's more like... BOOM, I'm now dead lol.

Once these get to L5 or larger, I feel the amount of space is crucial for their well being. In my opinion, this species is very territorial, but not aggressive like other species towards one another. My idolos are moved to an enclosure with a heck of a lot more roaming space once they reach that L5 size. They are so heavy, with such little b!tch peg legs lol.

If any of you have adult females that are still doing good, I am going to get a lot of males soon. Let me know by email if you want to get these females a'poking.

[email protected]


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## sporeworld

Here's a pic of a very sparcely appointed enclosure - but I'm really happy with it (functionally). I hot-glued the background plants (which i love, structurely) to the glass bottom, and leaned them against the back wall. Really easy for nymphs to climb up. The white flowers I'm not thrilled with, but again, they're functional.

The heat Rock in the bottom left doesn't seem as useful in such a large enclosure, but we'll see. Given the choice between rising heat (left) and blistering heat lamp (right) you can see what they chose (that's them clustered on the far right).

I started putting smaller and smaller deli-cup-fly-hatcheries straight into the enclosure a day or so after they've eclosed. Getting better and timing them out now.

Still experimenting with different substrate. Not loving any of them. (I need to learn how to take pitures, apparently).


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## sporeworld

Here's a better view of the plants, and background.


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## sporeworld

Dinner time.


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## sporeworld

Here's an odd, but favorite hunting spot for a few Idolos...






And here are 2 pics illustrating the standing long jump these guys are capable of. Wish I'd have had it on video...


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## sporeworld

And here's something I'm seeing in about 1 in 20 Idolos. They head to the lower branches about 2 days in advance and molt from there - all the others just use the screen. It's interesting to see how they hold on to the leaf.


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> And here's something I'm seeing in about 1 in 20 Idolos. They head to the lower branches about 2 days in advance and molt from there - all the others just use the screen. It's interesting to see how they hold on to the leaf.


Interesting. It makes sense.


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## angelofdeathzz

Very nice tanks sporeworld, I like the way you can open either side to get in there when needed. And yeah mine molt as much from the mid branches and leaves as they do from the top of the tank, I think some know it's better to go find a spot alone to molt at (so their not lunch).

@ Brian, seems you've been keeping some secrets from us for a while now bud, we have had this topic open for a long time now, and now when your selling some you join in? To each his own I guess. Hope to hear more from ya on your experience with them...

I've been messaging back and forth with alot of members on the Idolo's, and it seems some feel that humidity is not to important for molting, since I'm not willing to take the chance on a dry Idolo tank as I feel it is Very important, I would love to hear from you guy's on how low your RH is when they molt? What I do know is that I had some gongy molt in a dry tank and mismolts happened but the ones in a humid tank all molted with out any issues, they are close in species genetically so that was all the proof I needed.


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## Precarious

angelofdeathzz said:


> I've been messaging back and forth with alot of members on the Idolo's, and it seems some feel that humidity is not to important for molting, since I'm not willing to take the chance on a dry Idolo tank as I feel it is Very important, I would love to hear from you guy's on how low your RH is when they molt?


I'll stick to what worked the first time - *LOTS OF HUMIDITY*. I started with 6 nymphs. 1 died during L2 molt. Another lived till L8. I now have 4 perfect adult females. If it ain't broke don't fix it, people.

The funny thing is, dry was the bad advice we found everywhere last year and, it would seem, the reason no one was having luck with this species. A little research shows it to be very humid in their natural environment. Seems counterproductive to even try dry when misting a tank really isn't much of a hassle. To be blunt, if I hadn't rejected the majority of useless information out there last year I wouldn't have adults right now. I'd have mismolted or dead Idolos in the bottom of a net cage.

So is there a fascination just to see if they can survive in other than their natural conditions or some other objective to these experiments I'm not seeing? Weird...

And while I'm on a rant, what are these emoticons even supposed to mean???

:shaun: :alucard: :sailor: :donatello: 

I mean I can't imagine a situation where I'd use a black poodle nurse (?), a pimp wearing a head mic, a winking pipe-smoking creep with a white toupee floating above his scalp, or a Mutant Ninja Turtle in front of a band aid other than right here. Oh, I guess I answered my own question. Or did I? No?

I'm going back to bed... inch:


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## Christian

Hi.

I haven't been here for long, and now what do I see? There isn't much progress regarding breeding successes. Most advices were written down previously, so I will make it short. Apologies for this.

1. There was a breeding report in Orin's Journal, so why for God's sake don't you guys stick to that? It was the result of about 4 years (at that time) of continuous breeding, so we couldn't have been so bad after all...  

The total breeding time was 6 years, then I had to spend some time in the tropics (poor me...  ) and gave up the stock. It still exists, I was told (IGM 25).

2. Anyway: all enclosures I have seen are not suitable: take out the fancy stuff and fill it completely up with thin branches. It may not look so nice but do you want to have a fancy terrarium or to breed a difficult species? You can stick to the fancy stuff again later, when you know what you're doing.

3. Humidity IS an issue. Not for small nymphs but for older instars. 60-80% by day and 70-100% should be given when subadult latest!

4. Temperature IS an issue: our stock did well with 28-32° C on average by day (higher in the spots, but not much) and 18-22° at night. Lower temps were bad, higher temps were bad, and if you want hatching ooths, the temps at night should not exceed 24°. More important: This temps should be given at every point in the enclosure, then the specimens will not always try to get to the highest point, although this cannot be avoided completely (see below). I had the best results with a combination of heaters (cable) and spotlights, to keep the temps at the desired degree at every point of the terrarium.

5. Size IS an issue. I have read something of a deli cup or something. Forget it. The larger the enclosure the better. You have less problems with larger terraria, because the temps can be fixed better and the animals have more space to spread and to look for a suitable environment. They will not go to the highest point then either. The reason why mantids do this, besides of light and temps, is that they are arboricolous animals and try to get away from the ground. Most enclosures are too small, so they go to the highest point they can reach. You don't have similar problems with larger enclosures, which provide a more natural surrounding.

6. Idolomantis needs very special requirements, and they need them at every time. Laziness or "laissez faire" attitudes are paid immediately with many deaths. They need your attention all the time and most stock vanished due to some other problems of the breeder at some point in time.

So, good luck guys. There is a record to be broken!  

Greets,

C.


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## angelofdeathzz

Thanks Christian for your thought's and advice, but I thought my tank WAS the way you stated in your post, not fancy/with alot of thin branches, and 70-90% humidity, also a 16 watt heat pad in the bottom to evenly heat the tank, I guess you didn't see it?

In case some of you don't know this guy is a legend(for the good or bad) at keeping these rare beauties, so there you have it from the horses mouth, much like I have done(and Precarious) with them now and in the past.


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## Christian

I might have missed it, but all the pics I saw showed suboptimal enclosures. I cannot say anything about whether the 16 W heater is sufficient - everything that raises the temps to the desired level may help - but there were too few thin branches inside and much too much flowers, stones, roots and the like. There should really by nothing inside except those branches. Glass terraria may be enhanced by sticking polystyrene to the walls (inside). Net cages work if the bug room is heated during the day, otherwise you don't get the right temps.


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## Precarious

Christian said:


> So, good luck guys. There is a record to be broken!


Thank you for all the info! That clears things up.


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## PhilinYuma

Good to see you back after so long, Christian. You will be pleased to know that Sporeworld, the author of this thread, at least, has the back copies of Orin's_ Elytra and Antenna_ that carried the Idolomantis article by you and your friends. As ypu know, they are being bred _en masse_ in Poland. Do you know if your original article in German was translated into Polish?


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## Christian

Not necessarily. Europeans usually speak more than one language, so understanding caresheets written in a foreign language is not an unusual thing. That caresheet published in Orin's Journal was a translation of a previously published article in German. And much info spread via forums. I didn't make a joke when I said that the info is out there. People just should be able to extract it out of the ######. From time to time, some do it and are paid by successes. Having a "green thumb" for mantids also helps, bacause you can compensate lack of info with intuition and a somewhat "common sense" for biological requirements.


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## sporeworld

Hiya, Christian! Big fan of your work.

As far as I can tell, the reports from those journals aren't available online, unless you're talking about something else. I started this before getting my copies.

I'm assuming you guys started from some point and built on top of that. Hopefull we can build on what YOU built. I'm confident that there is more than one right way. I did quite a few things wrong (different) the last time around and still had some limited success. I now, thanks to you and several other breeders, we have the numbers to support some experimentation, and try to add to the knowledge base.

I think the "fancy stuff" IS supportable, just not in the higher instars. I've proven this for L1, L2, L3, L4 and now (I suspect) L5. As I acknowledged, I'll need something else beyond that. I can still have my "Fancy" by using birch or decorative branches, instead of boring old sticks. I'll think of something to satisfy my sensibilities... 

Thanks for the update on humidity and temps. Glad to finally hear from you.

BTW, what's the record? I like a good challenge...

Note: I added your temp &amp; Humidity notes to the careheet draft at the beginning of the thread.

Note: (2011-08-24) As of this date, I'm 3 for 3 to adult with the "Fancy Stuff"...


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## sporeworld

Here's a link to a video from Precarious (used with permission). I think this single, video contribution is one of THE most valuable peices of evidence in the entire Idolomantis Molting debate. You can see the tiny little split toe holding the cloth net. You can see why the flip is important, and the "precarious" (couldn't resist) way she scrambles around to get to a comfortable position.

To the rest our little community - PLEASE, PLEASE contribute!


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## angelofdeathzz

Yes sir, I loved this video when I first seen it a while back, and I still love it now, the only problem I see is you will need to catch all your Idolo's in the act of molting(which all mine did in the middle of the night) to get the side net in place, if you can well then this is perfect!!!

But I for one sleep at night(most of the time)so my set up is something close to this but with many more branches and gripable leaves running from the floor to the top, so if I miss the molt they can flip on there own and give me a wide eyed surprise when I wake up.

Here is some samples with my old camera(not even close to Henry's quality, sorry)

Male Adult

















Even more branches






Sub adults next to old skin






I do have one regret, it's that Precarious didn't take these shot's for me. :blush:


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## Precarious

angelofdeathzz said:


> Yes sir, I loved this video when I first seen it a while back, and I still love it now, the only problem I see is you will need to catch all your Idolo's in the act of molting(which all mine did in the middle of the night) to get the side net in place, if you can well then this is perfect!!!


Exactly. The net curtain is literally just a safety net. It got the job done till I could figure out how to get by without it. The first generation was just about getting through all the molts however I could. Now comes the refining process.

The reality is, in order to avoid the necessity of human intervention during molt, a large space filled with branches is required. I worry about spacing since too much density would interfere with later molts. I believe adjusting enclosure content as they mature is unavoidable if we expect them to do well at each stage. There will be some trial and error involved.

I got some footage of wing fluttering last night and this morning I found the girls laid a 3rd ooth. It's a shame it will never hatch.


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## angelofdeathzz

I even use this method on my Wandering Violins
















But here's one or two I just like


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## sporeworld

Hahahahah! Brilliant!

While it's a safer bet to split them up, it's so much more satisfying to keep them together (well, til adult). Provided you keep them well fed, you won't have a problem. But let me re-phrase that: I have a replacement Idolo here that says I'm right, and that you'll be fine keeping them together! A gentleman's/woman's wager - if I'm wrong, I'll send you an Idolo free of charge (from whichever instar I have at the time - L1-5 atm), but if I'm right... I get... (looks around for something interesting)... that pink tennis ball!!! Yeah! The coveted Pink Manti-Ball!

Just trying to liven things up. I suppose you'd have to send me the chomped remains, but still.

(C'mon... take the bait...) :tt2:


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## alicenwnderlnd

Sporeworld said:


> Hahahahah! Brilliant!
> 
> While it's a safer bet to split them up, it's so much more satisfying to keep them together (well, til adult). Provided you keep them well fed, you won't have a problem. But let me re-phrase that: I have a replacement Idolo here that says I'm right, and that you'll be fine keeping them together! A gentleman's/woman's wager - if I'm wrong, I'll send you an Idolo free of charge (from whichever instar I have at the time - L1-5 atm), but if I'm right... I get... (looks around for something interesting)... that pink tennis ball!!! Yeah! The coveted Pink Manti-Ball!
> 
> Just trying to liven things up. I suppose you'd have to send me the chomped remains, but still.
> 
> (C'mon... take the bait...) :tt2:


Bait taken!

I have a huge extro-terra I want to put them all in,(but scared) so this weekend they all move from the small one to the large one! together! I am watching number 5 molt to L-4 now... so far they have been really good together, even with my little runt trouble maker. who has moved to solitaire twice! but i keep putting him back because i like to see them together. the pink tennis ball has your name on it :lol: :lol:


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## alicenwnderlnd

I think they wiggle out faster than most, start to finish was less than 10 minutes... had to grab back up camera so pic not great, battery on the charger and did not have time to put it in.  they seem to resume eating quicker than other species too. have you noticed that or is that my imagination? but then again i think they eat more then others. :chef: 





P1010553 by alicenwnderlnd, on Flickr


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## sporeworld

Yup! And if I make a loud noise or bang something, they get things moving even quicker.

I just got 4 of those Exo-Terras and (over) dressed them. I've got a bunch in a monarch cage that look at me like "Why do we have to live in the projects"? Poor guys. I screamed out, "I'm working the burn gun... I mean GLUE gun, as fast as I can!!"


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## Precarious

Alice said:


> they seem to resume eating quicker than other species too. have you noticed that or is that my imagination?


Mine sometimes eat _while they're molting!_ They pass the fly from one claw, pull it out of the old skin, then pass it back as they molt the second claw, taking bites periodically through the whole process! :blink: 

OK, that was a joke...  

I think you'll enjoy them more as a group. I've never seen any cannibalism and I raised my last batch together. That's not to say it hasn't ever happened, but they are not aggressive toward each other and they don't usually go for large prey.


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## angelofdeathzz

Alice said:


> 4 L-4's today! this weekend, i think we will be moving to the "BIG KID" enclosures. I am Still concerned about keeping them together, so i think i will be separating them, I have one picked out for modeling and a pink tennis ball!


Can't wait to see those's pics!!! And don't worry I keep well over 30 in the bigger 24x18x18 Exo, and like 7 in a smaller 12x12x12 Exo, as long as it's not L1 with L4 you should be good to go(well fed).  

I've come to know Sporeworld well in the last few months, and I can tell you he's not joking with his bet with you, He's a great and well rounded member that just wants to see everybody happy....  

And I've had many new molts eat within 1 hour or less, they have that Cookie Monster mentality, I hear them say"Cookiieee yum yum yum".


----------



## alicenwnderlnd

ok, guys I am reassured about keeping them together! I would much prefer it anyway!   I have them in a 12X12X18 right now, but i picked up a big one a few weeks ago. since i have been so undecided about leaving them together, it has stayed unused... thanks sporeworld for making it easy!


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## sporeworld

Wow! I've never seen (or noticed) it THAT fast. Sure they don't just "all look the same"?  

I know the fastest I clocked the L1-L3's was a little less than 24 hours. I'm shocked their little mouth peices can even work that soft. (Wait, are you guys being sarcastic?).


----------



## animalexplorer

I have them in a 24x18x18 Exo just like Nick's(He recommended the bigger size, so I said what the heck) Mine are doing fine as a community. I've observed several times where one individual barges right into a cluster of them and climbs right over the other(s) without incident, looks like a mosh pit dance. I also love the face downs where they are pretty much face to face with their arms up at each other(lol). These are simply fantastic to observe as a community.


----------



## alicenwnderlnd

I am serious about the hour and 36 minutes, i watched this guy molt( I could easily tell them apart because was the only L-4) and watched him catch a fly and eat it I am sure he was not even fully dried! I was shocked, and amazed! they defiantly have beauty and brawn! :taz:


----------



## alicenwnderlnd

animalexplorer said:


> I have them in a 24x18x18 Exo just like Nick's(He recommended the bigger size, so I said what the heck) Mine are doing fine as a community. I've observed several times where one individual barges right into a cluster of them and climbs right over the other(s) without incident, looks like a mosh pit dance. I also love the face downs where they are pretty much face to face with their arms up at each other(lol). These are simply fantastic to observe as a community.


I have just gotten used to this nerve racking behavior! i kept taking my trouble maker out, as he would jump in a mosh pit regularly, run to another and throw his arms up! he was giving me grey hair! i thought for sure he was going to be a snack! I have loosened up a bit though, as now i have insurance   and they are great as a community! but than again i think they all are better as a community!


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## Precarious

Alice said:


> I have loosened up a bit though, as now i have insurance   and they are great as a community!


Just to put your further at ease, I have L1s in with L2 and L3s with no problems. I catch the L1s lifting their arms threatening the bigger ones who turn and run away!


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## sporeworld

I cracked up yet again! Mosh Pit!!

Mine will go from victim to victim struting and threat posing, and the others just give him the stare down. As soon as one snaps at him, he runs away like flailing and making a fuss! Hillarious!

But by about l4 / l5, they all calm down, and you kind of miss it...


----------



## sporeworld

Concerning enclosures, I posted a thread called "Welcome to SpongeWorld", that I'm happy with (so far). (Here's a pic)







Also, I've done some putzing with other materials, including some paper-based insulation/filter stuff I found at Home Depot. Little nymphs LOVE climbing on it (and in it, which is a bit of an issue). I may hang strands of it from the ceiling to let them scurry about...






Here's an example of how I used it to line the sides (and keep at least a few of them off the ceiling).


----------



## sporeworld

After staring at my empire of Idolos, I just wanna say that they are THE most satisfying species I've ever had (well, yet). I hope the work we put in here leads to a large enough breeding community that everyone can have a go at them - even if it's just a lonely one or two GLORIOUS nymphs!


----------



## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> Concerning enclosures, I posted a thread called "Welcome to SpongeWorld", that I'm happy with (so far). (Here's a pic)
> 
> Here's an example of how I used it to line the sides (and keep at least a few of them off the ceiling).


Hahaha! SpongeWorld looks hilarious! They will think they're on another planet. :lol: 

I would be very wary of mold using that paper material.

I have a pretty simple setup with my twig wall to one side and thin branches throughout. As I write this there is only one out of 16 nymphs hanging from the top. They are content to hang scattered throughout the branches.



Sporeworld said:


> After staring at my empire of Idolos, I just wanna say that they are THE most satisfying species I've ever had (well, yet). I hope the work we put in here leads to a large enough breeding community that everyone can have a go at them - even if it's just a lonely one or two GLORIOUS nymphs!


AGREED!


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## sporeworld

Precarious said:


> I would be very wary of mold using that paper material.


Yeah - I think yer dead on. I'm keeping an eye out now for a plastic version. They really like the texture. It reminds me of camo netting for vehicles. But maybe they have the paintball version (neon) made of plastic. Needs research...


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## angelofdeathzz

Agreed X2 , I love coming home saying hi to everyone, then It's a quick peek at my Idolo Zoo, a count on all the new molts, all with a big smile on my face.  

Having 1-5 lets you have a good experience with them in a personal way, but when you have 10+ in one and over 30 in another you feel like a General in a MANTIS ARMY(Over the top I know) All I can say is I think their here to stay(Yahooo), in 6 months nobody will ever need to shop overseas for these bad boy's.


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## kitkat39

Sporeworld said:


> Concerning enclosures, I posted a thread called "Welcome to SpongeWorld", that I'm happy with (so far). (Here's a pic)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I've done some putzing with other materials, including some paper-based insulation/filter stuff I found at Home Depot. Little nymphs LOVE climbing on it (and in it, which is a bit of an issue). I may hang strands of it from the ceiling to let them scurry about...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's an example of how I used it to line the sides (and keep at least a few of them off the ceiling).


I actually use that paper material a lot for my mantis to molt on.. biggest thing that's used that has been the Deroplatys Lobata molting to adult


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## sporeworld

Good to know. They really seem to like it.


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## alicenwnderlnd

Can I easily sex my guys at L-4? help me out and give me some pointers, i have to say i am really bad at it, violins are easy and a few others but quite frankly i usually wait for wings. but of course i have the idolo excitement and want to know...  thanks!


----------



## alicenwnderlnd

angelofdeathzz said:


> Agreed X2 , I love coming home saying hi to everyone, then It's a quick peek at my Idolo Zoo, a count on all the new molts, all with a big smile on my face.
> 
> Having 1-5 lets you have a good experience with them in a personal way, but when you have 10+ in one and over 30 in another you feel like a General in a MANTIS ARMY(Over the top I know) All I can say is I think their here to stay(Yahooo), in 6 months nobody will ever need to shop overseas for these bad boy's.


to true! my five seem easy enough to keep up with. I did have a panic attack last night and thought i might have to use my insurance policy as i could only find 4 in the enclosure! it took me almost a half hour to find my missing guy, he had come down and was hanging on a low branch, he is still low today, so i am assuming he is the one that molted first to L-4 and soon will be an L-5. as when he molted to L-4 he spent 3-4 days on a lower stick before molting. (he was the only one that did that though, interesting!) and all are eating well!! my favorite thing is to release flies and watch all of them grab one and munch and rock! these guys are great and so far my favorite!


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## micar511

i have been using drywall patch tape/wrap, if you will. not exactly sure what it's called but it's used to patch up drywall, rather one of the methods. it comes in a duct tape like roll and you layer it over the area before applying the the mud/paint. it's thin netting material that only sticks, not binding kind of way, to other pieces, so i've lined the screen top with that. as far as i know it's safe, durable, and cheap for a good amount. i've played around folding pieces over and it can easily be tailored however you like - a long net across the enclosure, or draped, placed loosely or applied firmly. it doesn't have a sticking compound or substance. i can't say that it has helped anything because i've used it since acquiring these guys and haven't done differently, but it hasn't hurt anything, not messy, and actually seems befitting for our purposes.

all of mine molt from branches - usually the lower ones - L1 - L4 - granted I have a smaller number - 6 individuals - but every single molt except one when they were L1/L2s and in their first ten gallon enclosure. I also used a cheap, replacement window screen picked up from meijers as the top of that enclosure b/c the screen was pretty thin and not as hard, defined metal screen top. Also, since it is a window, you can adjust it bc it slides - so one top, or slide on the other top if you are losing too much humidity or need to clean one. I would sometimes put a little honey on the screen for the flies, and this came in handy. I've seen my idolos taking quicks nibbles of the honey as well and remember because we were discussing if they drink water . The heat mat I have seems to help quite a bit - and I'll catch one of them lounging and scavenging around through the substrate moss. They even go far and attempt to catch any groundwelling fly that crosses or comes qithin close proximity.

My L4s - molted from L3's in less than two weeks - 12 days - L3-L4. Seems quick according to the sheet - Precarious / Sporeworld...right? L2 - L3 was pretty fast as well...I'll check - I send a message to Nick every molt since he's a good dude and checks in to make sure things are going swimmingly with the dragons.

and Christian said in order for the ooths to hatch - no higher than 75f/24c at night, right? yes he said 24c max...just checking. is he referring to throughout the entire lifespan of the idolo or when adults or if/when the female actually has the ooth/s?? any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Michael


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## sporeworld

micar511 said:


> i have been using drywall patch tape/wrap,


I'll have to loo into that. Sounds good.



micar511 said:


> My L4s - molted from L3's in less than two weeks - 12 days - L3-L4. Seems quick according to the sheet - Precarious / Sporeworld...right?


Yeah. What's your heat like? I'm beating all my old times with higher heat. (I know - it's not a race).



micar511 said:


> Christian said in order for the ooths to hatch - no higher than 75f/24c at night, right? yes he said 24c max...just checking. is he referring to throughout the entire lifespan of the idolo or when adults or if/when the female actually has the ooth/s??


That's just for incubation.


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## sporeworld

Alice said:


> ... he had come down and was hanging on a low branch, he is still low today, so i am assuming he is the one that molted first to L-4 and soon will be an L-5. as when he molted to L-4 he spent 3-4 days on a lower stick before molting. (he was the only one that did that though, interesting!) and all are eating well!! my favorite thing is to release flies and watch all of them grab one and munch and rock! these guys are great and so far my favorite!


I noticed some doing that, too. What I HAVEN'T noticed (or noted) is the outcome of that behavior? If you've got a small group, you have the advantage on me in observation. Be curious to see if there are other behaviors the low-hangers exhibit...? Smaller...? Males/Females? Curious to see what happens...


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## angelofdeathzz

I strongly feel those low hangers(I have many of them) are just a little smarter and don't want to run the risk of being eaten by the guy (or girl) next to him during the fragile molting process, nothing more or less?

I'm running a IQ test now to find out. How do you guy's get them to hold a pencil again?

If I joke around too much just say "enough already Nick' and I'll just go into Guru :fortuneteller: mode and only type thing's that make me sound smart as a whip from there out. But don't hold me to that. :whistling:


----------



## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> I'm beating all my old times with higher heat. (I know - it's not a race).


I'm not adding extra heat so we'll see if yours mature faster. I only have L1-L3 right now so you're already ahead. We'll have to factor that in.


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## angelofdeathzz

Mark and I both got our first 2 batch's at the same time, I use moderate heat (86-92) and his are more like 105+, and so far his seem to be maturing somewhat faster than mine in general, but it is a race to the death after all. I think I would like mine around a while, even if I can just make more(hopeful ooth's). Not that I think it's wrong to get them to adult quickly, I just want to smell the roses along the way...


----------



## Precarious

angelofdeathzz said:


> Mark and I both got our first 2 batch's at the same time, I use moderate heat (86-92) and his are more like 105+, and so far his seem to be maturing somewhat faster than mine in general, but it is a race to the death after all. I think I would like mine around a while, even if I can just make more(hopeful ooth's). Not that I think it's wrong to get them to adult quickly, I just want to smell the roses along the way...


Just as an experiment I'm keeping one at very low temperatures (in the freezer) and so far it doesn't seem to have matured at all.


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## sporeworld

Yeah, my hope is to put as much distance as is safe between the groups. I'd like to have more than a month of adults. If I slow the last group and speed the first, I think I'll get close to 4 months. That should take care of any gender gaps (remember, the female has an extra molt).

Only SOME of mine are at 105f (daytime). Other are 90f, 85f, and variable. I'm also doing a sub-test on constant light. I've already botched it a bit, but I want to see if there are any differences in a group that never get's darkness. I suspect the day/night cycle isn't absolutely necessary. I kinda think drops in temp and humidity aren't either, but I'm out of experimental enclosures at the moment. :-(


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## micar511

the 24 light period is not hard to believe


----------



## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> I'm also doing a sub-test on constant light. I've already botched it a bit, but I want to see if there are any differences in a group that never get's darkness. I suspect the day/night cycle isn't absolutely necessary.


That equates to torture from my perspective. I would be willing to bet you get many deaths in that group due to stress. All living things need a light cycle. Without our circadian rhythm cued to a light cycle our health and development fails. I encourage you to discontinue this experiment as it amounts to animal cruelty.

...

*Importance in animals*

Circadian rhythmicity is present in the sleeping and feeding patterns of animals, including human beings. There are also clear patterns of core body temperature, brain wave activity, hormone production, cell regeneration and other biological activities. In addition, photoperiodism, the physiological reaction of organisms to the length of day or night, is vital to both plants and animals, and the circadian system plays a role in the measurement and interpretation of day length.

...

Freerunning organisms that normally have one or two consolidated sleep episodes will still have them when in an environment shielded from external cues, but the rhythm is, of course, not entrained to the 24-hour light–dark cycle in nature. The sleep–wake rhythm may, in these circumstances, become out of phase with other circadian or ultradian rhythms such as metabolic, hormonal, CNS electrical, or neurotransmitter rhythms.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm#cite_note-17

...

*Disruption*

Disruption to rhythms usually has a negative effect. Many travellers have experienced the condition known as jet lag, with its associated symptoms of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(physical)fatigue, disorientation and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomniainsomnia.

 A number of other disorders, for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorderbipolar disorder and some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_disordersleep disorders, are associated with irregular or pathological functioning of circadian rhythms. Recent research suggests that circadian rhythm disturbances found in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorderbipolar disorder are positively influenced by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_pharmacologylithium's effect on clock genes.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm#cite_note-54

Disruption to rhythms in the longer term is believed to have significant adverse health consequences on peripheral organs outside the brain, particularly in the development or exacerbation of cardiovascular disease. The suppression of melatonin production associated with the disruption of the circadian rhythm may increase the risk of developing cancer.[url=[/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm"]#cite_note-56]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm


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## angelofdeathzz

Precarious said:


> That equates to torture from my perspective. I would be willing to bet you get many deaths in that group due to stress. All living things need a light cycle. Without our circadian rhythm cued to a light cycle our health and development fails. I encourage you to discontinue this experiment as it amounts to animal cruelty.
> 
> ...
> 
> *Importance in animals*
> 
> Circadian rhythmicity is present in the sleeping and feeding patterns of animals, including human beings. There are also clear patterns of core body temperature, brain wave activity, hormone production, cell regeneration and other biological activities. In addition, photoperiodism, the physiological reaction of organisms to the length of day or night, is vital to both plants and animals, and the circadian system plays a role in the measurement and interpretation of day length.


Yeah I'm not to sure that they would make long in a healthy way in that environment, Precarious may have a point. Or are you joking Spore?


----------



## Precarious

angelofdeathzz said:


> Precarious may have a point. Or are you joking?


I'm serious. This is one of the things they do to inmates at Guantanamo Bay to break them down psychologically. They induce sleep deprivation by exposure to constant bright light (and loud noises in case they do fall asleep).

I don't encourage you to water board your nymphs either, by the way. :sweatdrop:


----------



## PhilinYuma

Precarious said:


> I'm serious. This is one of the things they do to inmates at Guantanamo Bay to break them down psychologically. They induce sleep deprivation by exposure to constant bright light (and loud noises in case they do fall asleep).
> 
> I don't encourage you to water board your nymphs either, by the way. :sweatdrop:


Yay! Fight! Fight! Debate! Debate! Can we all play? Good!

First of all, "torture" is an ugly word for this warm and friendly nation. What the CIA did (does?) at Gitmo is "enhanced interrogation", not torture. Glad we got that sorted.

Secondly, by any entomological measure, this is a very gentle, non invasive, technique. Those who have read the Prete book will be familiar with such techniques as painting mantids' eyes with black paint to make them blind and surgically removing certain organs to test their hearing ability.So calling this torture, how ever much we _feel_ it to be true, is special pleading at best.

We have to be very careful not to let our love of our pets to allow us to confuse them with vertebrates and critters that can feel pain. They can't; it would serve them no purpose. Neither can we induce bipolar disorder or any other cerebral disorder in them. They only just have a cerebral ganglion!

I leave the kitchen cabinet lights on all the time so that I don't kill myself in the middle of the night when stepping over the barrier made to keep out Tucker,. My kitchen is also HF (and ff) fiendly, and if I go in there at night, I will find the HFs motionless, in what is believed by many scientists to be their equivalent of sleep. I do not observe this behavior during the day; and they are much easier to catch when "asleep".

Observing a normal circadian rhythm for mantids, which means that we can't look at or play with them after sundown, (i.e. in the evenings when most of us are home) is advocated by professional and "serious" amateur breeders alike, but I know of no evidence to show that they sustain any harm if deprived of it. Maybe this experiment will give us some data on the subject

I suspect that these Idolos will simply find a shady spot at night and snooze. I look forward to hearing more of this experiment.

O.K. Now for the turn of the opposition!


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## sporeworld

Point taken.

Of course, I've had years of mantids living with my bizarre sleep schedule, and almost constant light, without noticeable impact (well, not on THEM, anyway).

My last batch had 16 hour day cycles, which may (possibly) have had more of an impact on development speeds than temperature or humidity. If we had identical temps and humdities, but I had longer light cycles, would mine mature faster or slower? Or would there be no difference?

It's already been suggested that day length (not clear if that's light or heat based) has an affect on some aspects of breeding. What else does it affect...? Mine don't seem to have any hard and fast rules on when they molt. They're on 12 hour cycles, so maybe that's why.

People thought I was going to cook my Creos, but they were totally fine - maybe even better. Aggressive (toward food), easy to breed, alert and evidentally healthy.

I know a lot of people check to see what the weather is like where their mantid was found, but it's not that simple. Nick in Detroit has the same species of Chinese that I do (and some guy in China). But our weather is crazy-different. Do they "survive" in Detroit, but "thrive" in China? I live in a desert, so humidity can't possibly be an all-or-nothing figure for that species. Or temps. We get to 120f and near-zero humidity in the summer. Detroit has 100f/100RH. And does Alaska have mantids? They have like 22 hours of sunlight in the summer. It can't be just that simple.

But the point is probably moot, since I'm out of town for a week, and won't be able to micro-manage any experiments. So (for now) they'll get their sleepy-time.

But I remain curious...


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## angelofdeathzz

I'm neutral on this one, I can't say if its good or bad to try, but I know I wouldn't try it, which doesn't mean someone else can't. I just think it could and would be less mantis in my collection when the dust settled.


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## Precarious

PhilinYuma said:


> ...but I know of no evidence to show that they sustain any harm if deprived of it. Maybe this experiment will give us some data on the subject
> 
> I suspect that these Idolos will simply find a shady spot at night and snooze. I look forward to hearing more of this experiment.
> 
> O.K. Now for the turn of the opposition!


"No known evidence" does not amount to evidence of the contrary. Where is the evidence deprivation of a day/night cycle is beneficial to ANY life form?

I will have no part of such experiments. You can all count me out of this thread if the consensus is keeping mantids in an uncomfortable environment is OK.

End of debate. You are free to debate amongst yourselves.


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## angelofdeathzz

OK, back to some pics then, here is some I never posted yet.  of what were all working for, I think?

The size is misleading he's 4 inches long, I just have biggish hands,lol.


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## angelofdeathzz

Here's some shots through the glass of some of my Idolo army, my hands and camera won't fit in there on that angle.





















All are L4-5, I have another tank with some big L5's and L6's. I'm going through about 50-60 BB's a day just with my Idolo's.  Cha-ching, I'm currently accepting fly donations. ^_^


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## angelofdeathzz

thats not a whole lot of flies  i am going through half that with just my five

Yeah I don't really count them, it's probably more, I just make sure I let enough go at one time that everybody get's one plus some extra. If I over fed them the whole bottom would be covered in fly carcases in no time, when there full they just eat the head and throw the rest down :angry: and even when I say you go pick that up and eat it, they won't.


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## alicenwnderlnd

angelofdeathzz said:


> thats not a whole lot of flies  i am going through half that with just my five
> 
> Yeah I don't really count them, it's probably more, I just make sure I let enough go at one time that everybody get's one plus some extra. If I over fed them the whole bottom would be covered in fly carcases in no time, when there full they just eat the head and throw the rest down :angry: and even when I say you go pick that up and eat it, they won't.


 :lol: :lol: i am having to clean up a lot after them myself, I have one that kills eats the good stuff them drops and gets another! I can imagine your army is hard to control  i have my second L-5 today, which is weird, i didn't expect it for another few days. the last molt, one was 4-5 days ahead of the others. now it seems this other one has caught up. it also looks female.  Man, i am in love with these guys! :tt1:


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## angelofdeathzz

Oh yeah, their very easy on the eye's and very easy to love. Myself and a couple others have learned that there seems to be MANY more females than males for some strange reason? Has anybody else noticed this phenomena? If you get a male put him in his own tank and slow him down if you can, is my advise to any male getters out there.

Mine molt at their own pace some fast some slow, I don't think any chart will tell you anything really except a in general time span that's not too accurate in the end, if you add up all the days they should molt per instar and figure in each one you'll be a month or more off +/- in the end on most of them.


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## angelofdeathzz

The easiest way to tell for me to is that the antennae get thicker at the base closest to the head early on Like Precarious said L5-L6, and I can tell at L4(95%) by how fat the abdomen is, the female has a circle or rounder shaped one and the male's look like a stretched out lemon. Think of a steak knife point (male) and a butter knife blunt point (female).


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## angelofdeathzz

I had to add this, a L5 going L6, just wish I had better than a 120.00 camera? And skill with said thing...  

Yes, I sprayed my mister once before I knew she was molting, but I didn't shock her off the twigs thank g_d!


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## alicenwnderlnd

angelofdeathzz said:


> The easiest way to tell for me to is that the antennae get thicker at the base closest to the head early on Like Precarious said L5-L6, and I can tell at L4(95%) by how fat the abdomen is, the female has a circle or rounder shaped one and the male's look like a stretched out lemon. Think of a steak knife point (male) and a butter knife blunt point (female).


I see what you mean! I think i have one male....  I hope its not wishful thinking, but his abdomen is shaped a bit different then the others (longer) and he is a bit smaller. he does not have as much flare on the abdomen fringe(not sure what its called but the decoration skin on the sides of the abdomen) I guess time will surely tell! patience patience! B)


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## angelofdeathzz

The males mature first and you have to slow them down with less heat -10 or so, plus a little less food.


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## Crantis

That's a very nice set up Nick. What size tank is that?


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## angelofdeathzz

Crantis said:


> That's a very nice set up Nick. What size tank is that?


Thanks, if you speaking of the Molting pic, thats a 12x12x12 Zoo Med that I have 4 of, but I'll be needing to get more soon, the other larger one is a 24x18x18 Exoterra, their both very similar in design and have a vent in the bottom that creates ventilation through convection if you have a heat source (lights) at the top. Joshsfrogs.com has them at a good price.


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## angelofdeathzz

Here's a quick pic of a male L6(can be done on L5) Idolo for anyone that needs some help sexing them, notice the thicker base on the antennae, much easier than counting segments for me...

female antennae are thin from top to bottom like thread and usually more curly at the tip but this is not always the case.

100% male here:


----------



## sporeworld

Here's an image of my latest enclosure approach. I found a roll of carpet backing, which has a nice, wide, net-like structure. And its nice and spongy - easy for nymphs to grip (and I'm hoping, adults). I loosely covered all sides and top with the material, and they seem to be doing great with it.

I realize I might have to just do the recommended "lots of sticks" thing as a default, but I'm trying to fight it. L5-L6 are doing great in SpongeWorld (and Spongeworld Lite). Some modifications to the sponges and stronger stems are going to be needed if I'm going to use them for adults.

I also did some limited experiments with Christmas lights. They look nice, but seem to have a minimal affect on temps.

More to come as I get more time...


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## sporeworld

Also, here's a quick pic of some Idolos taking a large silkmoth (it was almost dead already). All three fought over it before I got the camera out. But sadly, they didn't eat much of it, and just lost interest. :-( Please excuse the fly-spit on the window.


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## alicenwnderlnd

nice! I like the that netting that you used, it looks very sturdy! where did you get it?


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## sporeworld

Alice said:


> nice! I like the that netting that you used, it looks very sturdy! where did you get it?


I got it at Jo Ann's Fabric. You need some nice sharp scissors to cut it, or your hands will cramp up. Takes Hot glue really well, too. It's not as naturalistic as the stick ceilings the rest of you fellas came up with (kudos, again). Also, even though it looks spongy, it repels water (for better or worse). I suspect it will help insulate the tank, as well.

If it turns out to be what I stick with for a while, next I'll try painting it, or staining it.

I still have a few other uses for it. I'll update soon.


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## sporeworld

I took a picture of a similar material when I was on vacation. Here's the tag.


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## sporeworld

And sorry for calling your sticks ugly or boring... I think they are benchmarks - a place we got to that worked. Big "ups" to y'all for inventing them (and the molting net).

These things are essentially diaramas to me - little art projects. I'm really enjoying the tweaking that I'm doing ON TOP OF the work you guys have already done. So big thanks to all the contributors on this (and many other) topics!


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## sporeworld

angelofdeathzz said:


> Oh, you know I'm just joking with you about my ugly sticks, but on a serious note I never see your mantis on the sponges much, do you think they like it or maybe avoid it?


An excellent question! They all start on the sponges, but eventually (or invariably) end up on the top. That is true in ALMOST all my cages. It is ALWAYS true in my cages with top light heat sources. However, take a look at the picture below:






This was the result of one night where my office was completely dark... BUT the tanks were warmed with ceramic heat lamps instead. When I came in the next morning, they were all clustered on the glass facing THE LIGHT!!! NOT the HEAT!!! Interestingly, all the FLIES were clustered around the heat lamps. Within about 30 minutes of turning on the top light, all but the one hanging (maybe about to molt) had moved to the top.

So, earlier I said "that is true for ALMOST all my cages". In the tanks where the light was obscured at the top (my version of the stick ceiling was a little too tight) they hung where they felt most comfortable (since the light coming through the front glass was rougly the same everywhere). There seemed to be no necessity to hang from the top.

A cage that sits WAY high on the shelf wasn't getting any direct light or heat at all (wit was about 80f at the ceiling), and the nymphs were scattered throughout the cage.


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## d17oug18

honestly? when i first started, no water no mist on anything! it was an experiment, and everything even violins survived in the humid san gabriel valley without misting of any kind, only moisture was the inside of there food. Everything survived too, but i figured it was kind torturous to do that, so after about 6months to a year i started misting everything. EUUUURHAbody gets one mist a day =)


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## Precarious

d17oug18 said:


> EUUUURHAbody gets one mist a day =)


Yay! Glad to hear it. You've got to assume morning dew collects most places on earth and most animals take advantage of it.


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## sporeworld

OK - Let's see how y'all judge the gender on these lil guys (or is it gals?)

BTW, the broken leg in the first pic is compelling reason to de-screen the top of your enclosure before L4. They're little legs get stuck around that size, and can snap off. :-(


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## angelofdeathzz

quote: OK - Let's see how y'all judge the gender on these lil guys (or is it gals?)

All those in the pic's are males, except maybe the 3rd pick may be female, it does depend on their instar, some are late bloomers. But I'm fairly confident all are male but the 3rd.


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## alicenwnderlnd

angelofdeathzz said:


> quote: OK - Let's see how y'all judge the gender on these lil guys (or is it gals?)
> 
> All those in the pic's are males, except maybe the 3rd pick may be female, it does depend on their instar, some are late bloomers. But I'm fairly confident all are male but the 3rd.


I can see that! the difference of the antenna is quite subtle.


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## sporeworld

Alice said:


> they also had all their flowers 60% off... so of course i could not help but to get some!


I did an enclosure with a bunch of the really cheap flowers they had, but be warned - they stain easily. But the nymphs really like moving around on them... (noteL This was before I installed the vinyl mesh on the top. Also, there's a week of fly spit on everything! Yuck!).


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## sporeworld

UPDATE: You have until about L4 to use tight screen tops without modifications. The L4/L5 range is where they start losing legs and leg segments in the screen. I didn't have any deaths from it, but I've got 2 L4's in my little infirmary, getting special meals and attention. The last of my (many) cages got the "Nylon Sponge Mesh" upgrade tonight. They seem very "happy" in their new homes...






This one is simplistic, but the fern-like plant is amazing! It's rigid enough for an L4-L5 molt.






And here's a nymph (hard to call them that when they're this huge) who waited about 10 seconds after I turned off the lights to start molting. I wish I'd taken a picture earlier, cuz it's SO easy to tell when it's about to happen. They raise their arms a little above their head (well, from their perspective), and do these mini push-ups. I'm sure Precarious has it on video...


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## sporeworld

Here are some pics of their tarsus gripping the material. I imagined they hooked around the weave, but they appear to kind of pinch it. Anyone with a better lens than me (and Idolos), please get some closeups. This is the best I can manage...











Here're are some close-ups...


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## sporeworld

Happy to note that this was the first Idolo I witnessed using a sponge walk out of their skin. Went flawlessly!


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## sporeworld

Here's a poor quality shot of a nymph just minutes from shedding. With these guys, it's always this pose. Arms slightly above the head, and a droopy kind of posture. Good reference for people new to the species...


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## angelofdeathzz

Yeah I always say when I see them like that "this ones got a headache, he's about to molt guy's" :lol: , Great info to bring up and let people know about...


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## alicenwnderlnd

sporeworld, have you had very many molts using the new material? I have made my "girl" setup and have had 3 molts to L-6 very nicely, they seem to pinch the netting almost perfectly. I am a little concerned however that they are not hanging from the top like they used to. I know that sounds funny because the purpose of putting it on all the sides was so that they would have good grip all over, but, i am afraid they will try to molt on the sides? my instinct is that they will molt somewhere else, but my head says that they don't do what they are supposed to. any thoughts?


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## Precarious

Alice said:


> my instinct is that they will molt somewhere else, but my head says that they don't do what they are supposed to. any thoughts?


I hate to be the pessimist, but they will always pick the worst spot. You really have to either be present so you can take action to make sure they get through the later molts, or idiot-proof their enclosure. Enabling them to molt from vertical surfaces is not a good idea. No need to make the walls grippable. So long as you have a means of climbing available on two or more sides you're good. This can be as simple as branches they can reach from the ground or a fake vine snaking up the wall.

I still say glass enclosure with screen covered by twigs or mesh, filled with branches is the way to go. I was present to watch nearly every molt of my girls and I can tell you from direct experience they do not look for a good spot to molt. They just do it wherever. I would imagine in the wild their environment is such that they can successfully molt just about anywhere. Not so in captivity.

Last time I was more concerned with creating an environment that allowed me to shoot clear, close video of the process. The flip side to that formula is I needed to be present to film which enabled me to make up for their bad decisions. This time I may go for functionality instead.

If you are not able to be there each time they molt I suggest you do the same or you are setting yourself up for heartbreak.


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## sporeworld

I'm currently at about 50 out of 50 successful molts on the new material(s). There have been NO, repeat NO mismolts from my L4-L5-L6 in the new enclosures.

Now, it bears mentioning, that I'm using new materialS... _plural_. As Alice noted (with both twigs or mesh), the light is dimmed, and they tend to spend more time in the middle of the enclosure. One of my enclosure experiments is a fully screened cage with double flouro tube lighting. The mantids spend all their time on the top, where heat and light are much stronger. When I see one drop towards the middle, it is always to molt.

My point of materials-plural, is that the other enclosure elements (wired ferns, sunflowers or sponges) have all proven to be molt-wortyh for these instars (we'll see how they do for the final molt). I'm happy to say, I have the numbers to support these experiments, and enough lag time between the multi-aged nymphs to adjust as needed.

All that said, I think Precarious is correct (albeit, not in the direction I want to go), when he says to eliminate side molting options. If I were to design a single-mantid molting chamber, it'd probably be a small glass enclosure with the nylon mesh top, and a single, angled branch leading to the top (and for side grabbing during the flip. But, as mentioned, I'm trying to engineer an environment where the colony won't need that level of attention, and I can occasionally leave the office for fun and adventure!

I'll keep posting results. If y'all have other suggestions, please chime in. I'm confident we can take these beauties off the list of "Experts Only". They are, as I've mentioned several time, THE most rewarding species I've yet encountered.


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> I'm currently at about 50 out of 50 successful molts on the new material(s). There have been NO, repeat NO mismolts from my L4-L5-L6 in the new enclosures.


As would be expected. They are no different from any other species at this level of maturity. The special molting needs don't kick in till pre-sub or sub when they get heavier. So I say enjoy experimenting now while it doesn't matter. Hopefully you work something out that will be effective for later instars that both you and the mantids can live with.


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## alicenwnderlnd

:lol: :lol: point taken... I think i will remove the sides... am getting anxious as L-7 is just around the corner and i know I have only played with the "easy" molting, i am now concentrating on making the last molts as easy. I am glad i realized that i was making a mistake before molt time and it was to late! I have also removed most extra heating to the girls... i give them a couple hours in the am with a uv light and than shut it off. boys have no extra heating at all.


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## angelofdeathzz

Alice: Please do keep the girls above 82-84 or so a least, and the males not less than 76-78 (I know you want to cool the males down) day time or they may weaken, these guy's are either very healthy or dead! not much middle ground on them. I know some (many) people that messed (to low and to high both) with the temps too much and others with too low of RH and ALOT of theirs are Dead!

I GOT MY FIRST TWO L7's THIS MORNING !!!!!!!!! both males though=(

If we are not careful almost all the males WILL mature first which is the last thing we want. Keep in mind the females have a extra molt on the males, that makes it a double whammy!


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## alicenwnderlnd

angelofdeathzz said:


> Alice: Please do keep the girls above 82-84 or so a least, and the males not less than 76-78 (I know you want to cool the males down) day time or they may weaken, these guy's are either very healthy or dead! not much middle ground on them. I know some (many) people that messed (to low and to high both) with the temps too much and others with too low of RH and ALOT of theirs are Dead!
> 
> I GOT MY FIRST TWO L7's THIS MORNING !!!!!!!!! both males though=(
> 
> If we are not careful almost all the males WILL mature first which is the last thing we want. Keep in mind the females have a extra molt on the males, that makes it a double whammy!


Nick, my house is a constant 80-85, its over 100 degrees here and all i have is a swamp cooler so, they air is very humid. All of my mantis are thriving,(not me though :sweatdrop: ) I just moved my boys into my bed room where it is a few degrees cooler, I turn the UV light on the girls in the morning and it puts off very slight heat... i doubt they ever really get under 78 degrees even at night. but i like the "morning sun" effect...  

:clap: :clap: L-7 :clap: sub Adult for male?


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## sporeworld

Here's some pics to illustarte where I'm at with Sunflower City - an improvement on Spongeworld for molting L6-L8's. I'm about 57 sucessful molts, and ZERO mismolts. Not one!!!

I think, besides high humditiy and relatively high temps, the real improvements are (a) the spongy mesh on top and ( B) the arrangement and textures of the sunflowers (very similar to the sponges).

You can see in the photos below, how she (or he?) uses the nearby foliage to gently brace herself, and when ready, she just WALKED out of the skin. There was no flip. Very graceful. Back when I used screen, that skin would have fell right off, and her with it. Once she was ready, she tugged a little and her abdomen slipped right out.

















As always, looking for suggestions and input..


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> There was no flip. Very graceful.


They only flip when they become adult and have to inflate their wings. Until then they want to remain upside down. They may reach up after molt to grab on but the real danger comes with those pesky wings. :angel:


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## sporeworld

Hmmm. Good point.

I always think of the "flip" as the crawl back up their skin, but yeah - there's the other part where they try to be heads-up. Pretty sure the flowers can support them, But I might have to rethink the angles. Any suggestions (or pictures)?


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> Any suggestions (or pictures)?


Just the same old same-old. There should be grippable material within reach at the level they will be after molt so all their weight isn't on the old skin. That's the whole puzzle though.


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## angelofdeathzz

Precarious said:


> Just the same old same-old. There should be grippable material within reach at the level they will be after molt so all their weight isn't on the old skin. That's the whole puzzle though.


I just tape two of them together and they use the buddy system for the flip  , well that and MANY, MANY sticks and branches all over, from the top and mid zone, not to many in the bottom so they don't molt to low and bottom out.


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## animalexplorer

Zero casualty mismolts on my end so far, but then I'm still waiting for the final molt to adult to occur. I'm going to hang the net in front of them to assist in the flip when the time comes. I tried various sizes of branches in different zones to see if they had a preference but they seem to randomly molt in different locations throughout the whole enclosure. I let them all molt up to L4 using the screen top before placing the branches on top.


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## sporeworld

Precarious said:


> They only flip when they become adult and have to inflate their wings. Until then they want to remain upside down. They may reach up after molt to grab on but the real danger comes with those pesky wings. :angel:


OK, so I get a better sense of what we're dealing with... question to Precarious: If temp and humdidity could be controlled, do you think your Idolo could be left alone in your Ficus at home and molt successfully...? Obviously in a giant Net cube or some such.


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> OK, so I get a better sense of what we're dealing with... question to Precarious: If temp and humdidity could be controlled, do you think your Idolo could be left alone in your Ficus at home and molt successfully...? Obviously in a giant Net cube or some such.


I don't think the ficus is necessarily the perfect plant for them to molt on. They would probably pick the underside of one of the lower branches then have nothing to really grab onto. And in a net cage they might resort to grabbing the sides of the cage which would rip the spikes off their feet. But if the branch is on an incline and they are facing the downward slope it may work very well. I think you'd do better with a different branch configuration or to add an arrangement of vines hanging every 6" or so just in case.

I wish I could see them in their natural habitat to get an idea of the density of growth they prefer. I'm thinking branches with that 6" of spacing would be about right. They would always have something within reach.

You should ship me and Nick, with AnimalExplorer for tactical support, to Tanzania for some field research. We promise to bring you back a souvenir t-shirt at the very least.  

You'd look pretty snazzy in one of these...


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## hibiscusmile

I think I seen it mentioned that less daylight was given to the males, this might be a good thing to keep them from aging to fast, I know it works for me! :lol: :tt2: I like the dark!


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## sporeworld

You guys are a riot.

In other news, I have seen almost NO color variations, other than lightness after a molt, and more of a tan as they dry out. This guy here is the only exception. He's quite a bit darker than the others, and no real explaination why. He's in the darkest part of his emclosure, which is still brighter than about half the others. So I hope it isn't health related. Anyway, let me know if you guys see any variations.


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## angelofdeathzz

Yeah, some of mine are much darker than others and a couple are almost white, the same with some Violins I've noticed. I don't think it's a health issue there just a different hue, like people or other animals... Even human siblings from the same parents aren't always the same color/hue?

Or that one is the milk mans baby???


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## sporeworld

OK, I'm happy to say that I'm not crazy (well...) and I CAN tell the difference between male and femals after about L5. As it turned out, I just didn't HAVE any males in that range, at the time. Started getting them this week, and NO PROBLEM telling the difference. The antenae on the male are so dramatic. Here's an example...


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## Termite48

Mark : I must be dense, but I do not see what you are seeing in this picture. Are you seeing the kind of difference one sees in the antennae of a Violin male to female? The male's antennae are longer and more ornate.


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## Precarious

Please forgive the wacked out colors and contrast, as I just had to ship my lens out to get fixed, but...

This is what you're looking for. A little less pronounced then in this L7, but you get the idea. Thicker antennae from that lower portion, which both sexes have, on up to the tips. The males have a more delicate head as well, smaller, especially in comparison to the width of the shield.


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## sporeworld

Haven't had the time to take or process more pics, but here's a slightly better illustration than the one I posted. These are about L5-L6 (I think). Not L7. But you can see the dramatic difference in the antenae...






I'm sure there are clues in the genitalia as well, I just haven't studied it yet. I know one of the big breeders posted images a while back (I intend to do more).

In this photo, you can see the newly molted male (Left), and 2 near-molting siblings. I THINK one is a male, the other is certainly a female. You can see a difference in the antena thickness...


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## sporeworld

So, as I get ready for the "BIG FLIP" of the last molt, I am considering lifting one side of my square enclosure about 2". I'm hoping this will add enough of a slat to allow them to dry their wings from the top at a slight angle, and prevent them from flopping over, or drying wierd. It's that, or radically change the top entirely, which I'm trying to avoid.

Thoughts...?


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## angelofdeathzz

Well whatever you do DON'T add a bunch of sticks !!! :lol: 

But in your rigs maybe you could hot glue a bunch of sponges(reg dishwash rectangle ones) 5-6 inches apart all over the top so they hang down, they come in colors, then they can reach over to help flip when there ready, and they would also detour anybody wanting to take advantage of a easy snack. the Idea being 6-10 per square foot hanging long ways down parallel so you can still see in?


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## sporeworld

angelofdeathzz said:


> Well whatever you do DON'T add a bunch of sticks !!! :lol:


Hardee-Har-Har. &lt;_&lt; 



angelofdeathzz said:


> But in your rigs maybe you could hot glue a bunch of sponges(reg dishwash rectangle ones) 5-6 inches apart all over the top so they hang down, they come in colors, then they can reach over to help flip when there ready, and they would also detour anybody wanting to take advantage of a easy snack. the Idea being 6-10 per square foot hanging long ways down parallel so you can still see in?


Interesting. I had wanted to do them projecting upwards, but that might work as well (or better). I'll start hacking away tonight or tomorrow.


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## sporeworld

BTW, this image shows what is probably my favorite, and most stable approach to heating and lighting for these guys. I've got 2 lights mounted above the enclosure (on timers or on/off switches). Fairly consistent temps above 75F at the bottom, mid 80's at the top (with the A/C on).







I suspect they're better off hotter, but this range is consistent with daytime temp advice from "Christian" (82°-90°F), "Angelofdeathzz" (80-85F) and Precarious (80-85F). Besides, I have my other group at 95-105F and they're doing just fine. I'll adjust as needed.

I soak the substrate in the enclosure about every other day, which puts RH at about 80% after soaking, and down to about 50% before I hit it again. I don't mist them anymore, although I have been looking at drip systems (none installed as yet).

The enclosures closer to the ceiling are warmer - in part because it's warmer near the ceiling, and because the lights from the cage below warm the bottom of the enclosure. They need drenching slightly more often.

I had an oddball idea (go figure, huh?) to put a small betta tank inside, with a wide mesh over it. Or a lid with a gap (to keep out feces and debris). Always thinking about a waterfall or other decorative AND practical element, but so far, it just presents more problems than it solves. Any other ideas? Small toads, maybe? I usually keep some odds and ends in there (some small mantids to feed off the extra flies, and provide some amusement).


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## sporeworld

Feeding / Molting Note:

I noticed a male was about to molt from L5-L6, so Ipulled him out and gave him his own net cube. Molted fine with nothing in the cube (just the mesh). I put a single annoying fly in there the next morning. No interest in eatting until almost excatly 48 hour after the molt. Just FYI.


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## sporeworld

Molting note:

I had a beautiful molt from L6 to L7, that defied the odds. Just moments after the legs extended, one very reckless L6 decided to crawl BETWEEN the shed legs! I watched in terror as he forced his way through the legs and out the other side. Whew. Nope. Wait for it... One more lap around the enclosure... and... THROUGH THE LEGS AGAIN!!! I have NO IDEA what possessed him! It's exactly the kind of thing MY BROTHER would do to me if I ever had to shed.

Despite the annoyance of his brother, the molt was fine. But it was pretty funny (looking back). A few minutes later, he stepped the rest of the way out of his skin, and just scowled at his little brother with utter contempt. Love to get a thought bubble over THAT guy's head...


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## sporeworld

Just another comment on the nylon rug liner that I'm using on the top. Here's a pic of a skin that has been hanging for about 4 days and has yet to fall. A record for my enclosures for sure. The one to the right has been up for 3 days and counting...


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## hibiscusmile

Maybe it is just a very skinny mantis! :lol:


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## sporeworld

hibiscusmile said:


> Maybe it is just a very skinny mantis! :lol:


I pulled it off last night, and it broke just past the first "knee" bend. I had to un hook (or whatever) the rest of the leg. I think the tarsus might have been sunk into the nylon.


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## alicenwnderlnd

Sporeworld said:


> I pulled it off last night, and it broke just past the first "knee" bend. I had to un hook (or whatever) the rest of the leg. I think the tarsus might have been sunk into the nylon.


two fresh L-7's on the same stuff and i had to pull down the skins too


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## sporeworld

Had reasonable success today with feeding crickets to L5-L8 Idolos (probably 1 in 8 went for it). Worse odds, but (possibly) better nutrition with superworms (about 1 in 10). The ones that DID go for it, greedily ate them entirely. We'll see if the same nymphs will go for it tomorrow. (Am I the only one having trouble calling these beasts "nymphs"?).

Here's a few pics...


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## sporeworld

I couldn't get a good pic with my phone, but this is a compromise enclosure, where I added "sticks" to the enclosure (well, really plastic plants, but relatively thin, whispy branches). I'll watch how they do on it, then maybe thicken it up. They seem to like hanging from the leaves more than the branches. I may use similar branches in the final adult enclosure(s).


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## angelofdeathzz

Very nice, you've got all the bases covered that way (netting and sticks), maybe get the leaves and branches closer to the top with safety pins so they can grab on to do the flip?

I like it ! Hope you get some flies hatched soon...


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> I couldn't get a good pic with my phone, but this is a compromise enclosure, where I added "sticks" to the enclosure (well, really plastic plants, but relatively thin, whispy branches). I'll watch how they do on it, then maybe thicken it up. They seem to like hanging from the leaves more than the branches. I may use similar branches in the final adult enclosure(s).


Plastic branches will do you no good. They're not textured, so they're hard to grip. They can still climb them by wrapping their feet around but I doubt they will be of much help during a molt.

Just go into the wild (Eeek!) and get some plain old, brown twigs (Egad!!! Horror of horrors...). There is a whole big world outside of Michael's chock full of good materials better suited to your Idolo's needs.  

But seriously, I want as many of your babies as possible to make the transition into healthy, well-formed adults. I'm not saying you won't get adults otherwise, as animals will do their best with what they're given. But why not give them the best chance at an easy transition?


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## sporeworld

Precarious said:


> Plastic branches will do you no good. They're not textured, so they're hard to grip. They can still climb them by wrapping their feet around but I doubt they will be of much help during a molt.
> 
> Just go into the wild (Eeek!) and get some plain old, brown twigs (Egad!!! Horror of horrors...). There is a whole big world outside of Michael's chock full of good materials better suited to your Idolo's needs.
> 
> But seriously, I want as many of your babies as possible to make the transition into healthy, well-formed adults. I'm not saying you won't get adults otherwise, as animals will do their best with what they're given. But why not give them the best chance at an easy transition?


Nice!

These branches are crazy-complex textured, with soft rubber-like plastic. So better than all but the crustiest twigs I could find. I did (and have fairly regularly) walked my neighborhood and park neurotically, breaking, collecting and touch-testing branches. If they SNAP in my fingers, they don't make the cut. I really like lilac (so, I think, does AngelofDeath), but it's hard to find out here in any quantity.

So, yeah, as much as I'm committed to this no-branch approached, I'm prepared to switch over immediately. After the first "wave" of sub/adult molts, I'll to the TwigCage as well, just to compare. I think my only real concern is them molting from the sides, but that hasn't happened yet, and I suspect it had more to do with overcrowding before. Now, it's 4 subs to a 30" wide tank, and seems comfortable. I have 4 individual ExoTerras built and standing by if needed.

Now we wait...


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> So, yeah, as much as I'm committed to this no-branch approached, I'm prepared to switch over immediately. After the first "wave" of sub/adult molts, I'll to the TwigCage as well, just to compare.


Glad to hear it. I think if you get a chance to watch the subadults molt firsthand you'll see just how difficult it is for such a large, heavy insect. If you think about it, what they do is really amazing. It's like child birth - only birthing themselves. The challenges inherent in the process are incredible so we've got to do anything we can to make sure they succeed.

Another thing to consider is that if you are around enough to watch for swollen wing buds you can have an enclosure on hand decked out specifically for molting. You can move potential molters into there and still have the others in whatever setup you prefer. The only real danger is during molt and right after. Once they get through it and the new skin hardens they can pretty much grip anything again. So, realistically, branches can be a temporary thing.


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## angelofdeathzz

Well, I've got 3 Giant sub adult Females(L8), as Sporeworld mentioned to me, they seem much bigger than others I've had in the past, the shield at sub is as big as my adults last time around, and I also have 3 big sub males and a bunch of presub males that I've been slowing down. Using 4 tanks now for all the different stages, I'm a happy camper to say the least and have my finger's crossed for myself and all of you as well. Sports chant in order here "LET'S GO IDOLO" now that was almost as much fun as yelling it at a Red Wings game "Let's Go Red Wings", did I mention I live in HockeyTown, USA.


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## sporeworld

Precarious said:


> Glad to hear it. I think if you get a chance to watch the subadults molt firsthand you'll see just how difficult it is for such a large, heavy insect....


I'm not sure if you remember, but I've had adults before, and watched the whole (nerve-wracking) process. Also, I've got 8 subadults now, and I've seen almost all the moltings.

And yeah, you can tell when it's comming, but the females have that thing where they can delay for a really long time. So, I'm just leaving them in place for now, but solo molting chambers are ready and waiting...


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## guapoalto049

The genitalia will show when a molt is coming too. The sexual organs will start to poke out of a subadult around the day before/of a molt. So you have swollen wing buds over a week in advance, protruding genitalia around 12 hours out, and raised wing buds in the minutes before the molt.


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## What

Sporeworld said:


> Had reasonable success today with feeding crickets to L5-L8 Idolos (probably 1 in 8 went for it). Worse odds, but (possibly) better nutrition with superworms (about 1 in 10). The ones that DID go for it, greedily ate them entirely. We'll see if the same nymphs will go for it tomorrow.


Something I had a lot of success with when trying to get mantids to take to mealworms was cutting off an end and placing that open end against the mantis's mouth. The species I have experience doing that with(G. gonylodes &amp; couple CA native sp.) would generally start eating as soon as something contacted their mouth and then grab on to it and chow down.

This might work to get your idolos to take more readily to other feeders?


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## sporeworld

What said:


> Something I had a lot of success with when trying to get mantids to take to mealworms was cutting off an end and placing that open end against the mantis's mouth. The species I have experience doing that with(G. gonylodes &amp; couple CA native sp.) would generally start eating as soon as something contacted their mouth and then grab on to it and chow down.
> 
> This might work to get your idolos to take more readily to other feeders?


Yup! I did this with crickets, too. Also, a slight glaze of honey on the tip seems to help, as does just wetting them down.

What I found was fighting me, was the hard shell of the super worm. You could hear the claws hit it, and they'd freak a bit and let it go. If I was less squeamish, i'd cut them lengthwise. I've fed them BB grubs without incident.


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## sporeworld

guapoalto049 said:


> The genitalia will show when a molt is coming too. The sexual organs will start to poke out of a subadult around the day before/of a molt. So you have swollen wing buds over a week in advance, protruding genitalia around 12 hours out, and raised wing buds in the minutes before the molt.


THAT is brilliant! I've scan tons of pages of info on these guys specifically, and never heard that one before.

If anyone can get a pic of this, or comparison PLEASE post it! Thanks!


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## PhilinYuma

Sporeworld said:


> Yup! I did this with crickets, too. Also, a slight glaze of honey on the tip seems to help, as does just wetting them down.
> 
> What I found was fighting me, was the hard shell of the super worm. You could hear the claws hit it, and they'd freak a bit and let it go. If I was less squeamish, i'd cut them lengthwise. I've fed them BB grubs without incident.


Good point. certainly the idea that empusids (or any other kinds of mantis) can only take flies and that other feeders are potentially harmful has pretty much gone out of fashion in recent years, and Christian Schwartz's comment in part 2 of his article that you have:, is to the point: "...older nymphs and adults also catch cursorial insects from time to time, greatly influenced by individual preference". "Individual preference" is the operative phrase, and if the prey insect has to be mutilated and the mantis coaxed into sampling its vital fluids first, then it is obviously not a part of that individual's preference.

The analogy with human nutrition, and our need for a varied diet does not seem to have much force regarding insects. A Stagmomantis carolina may sit on a leafy branch for most of its late nymphal and adult life and must make do with whatever flies by. No decapitated meal worms of crickets or longitudinally sliced larvae for him! And yet the race continues to flourish.

The significant importance of airborne insects to the Idolo's diet is almost certainly a function of their carrying pollen, and I have no doubt (I think that you have mentioned it) that you are already giving that.

And so the epic continues!


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## sporeworld

Pollen would hold up if fed only uncoated blue bottles, would it...? What I read suggested at one point was that it had sometihg to do with digesting the wing (which they seldom eat), or that, more to the point, something in crickets caused problems in ooth production. If the later, I suspect that same probelm wouldn't occur from feeding them, say, hummingbirds (yuck). I fed my first adult legless-female pieces of chicken and honey-dipped flies, and even laying on her back, she still produced a fertile ooth (OK, so it only popped out ONE nymph, but it still counts!).


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## sporeworld

HEALTH NOTE:

I had an Idolo die this morning from something I'd seen once a year or so back when I did Idolos.

http://s1085.photobucket.com/albums/j439/Sporeworld1/?action=view&amp;current=dacd6307.mp4







The video above shows it best, but a few hours earlier, she was looking kinda "droopy". Holding her arms a little over her head. AT first I though maybe she was going to shed. But then she put her arms all the way down, which isn't right. He legs were fully extended, too. I saw her abdomen laboring. There's a small peice of feces stick to her, but I it wasn't IN her. When I felt her, she was very "soggy", like when they are about to molt.

She was nearly dead on a flower this morning. Not molted, but soggy and kind of deflated. I put her in the freezer.

She was eatting Blue bottles earlier yesterday and the day before, but no more than some of the others (a little less, if anything). She was NOT one of the ones that ate crickets or superworms.

She was not (visibly) injured. No sign of infection, or blemishes that I could see.

None of the other are showing any symptoms, so I suspect it's one of the pre-molting problems I've heard discussed elsewhere, and not the living conditions.

Anyone else experience this?


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> Anyone else experience this?


That's a shame. She was a big girl. I've never seen anything like that before in mantids, but I'd imagine it's not uncommon for insects to die while preparing to molt. I had a female Whipscorpion that molted to adult. She made it almost all the way out then just died for no reason. Wasn't stuck or anything. When I pulled she slid right out of the skin.

Sad. Hope you don't lose any more.


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## guapoalto049

Sporeworld said:


> THAT is brilliant! I've scan tons of pages of info on these guys specifically, and never heard that one before.
> 
> If anyone can get a pic of this, or comparison PLEASE post it! Thanks!


As a matter of fact Mark, I've got some:
















I don't have any pictures of swollen wing buds without 'protruding' genitalia, but most people can imagine this.

BTW, these were taken around 6 hours pre molt.


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## angelofdeathzz

Having over 30 L6 and up Idolo makes it a little hard taking pic's of all them, but how I can tell is when I release a multitude of flies in there tank, the one(s) that don't grab a big mac with wings are the ones that will molt very soon as they watch there roommate with a big mac in each raptor greedily eat one down to get to the other in his/her grip. I try to feed 3-5, fat honey laden BB's per mantis per day, and they seem very happy and content on that and occasionally give me the knuckle bump

@Sporeworld: I had a random death of one just the other day as you described, no real reason or clue why, she was not bitten or chewed on and seemed healthy till I awoke to find her on the floor barely moving(trying to crawl but to weak) and I picked her up and set her on some lower branches to no avail, she moved less and less through the day only to die that night, she was in a big tank with 15 others and she was the only target of the Grimm Reaper, strange never seen that before? Maybe it's just natural selection enforcing it's will.


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## guapoalto049

BTW my post only related to subadults ready to molt. Idolos get swollen wing buds for a longer period of time than most species, so it would be adventageous to notice the signs of an impending molt, i.e. the extended genitalia. This is beneficial particularly to those keeping communal Idolos. The last molt is dangerous enough, even without its siblings crawling all over it


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## alicenwnderlnd

I lost my first idolo today :angry:  eaten by her sister... they have been bickering for days, i should have separated them. what a bummer!


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## sporeworld

Sorry 'bout that Alice. :-(

To anyone questioning the appetite of these beastm here's pic of my subadult having NO problem with a huge moth!


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## sporeworld

I had a molting look like it might go wrong (too much activity from siblings), so I gt nervous and used my makeshift molting assistant (just a cut peice of pool noodle). Wedged it in place, and all ended well.

Not as sophisticated as the molting net, but it worked!


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> I had a molting look like it might go wrong (too much activity from siblings), so I gt nervous and used my makeshift molting assistant (just a cut peice of pool noodle). Wedged it in place, and all ended well.
> 
> Not as sophisticated as the molting net, but it worked!


That seems to have worked swimmingly, old chap! :euro: &lt;- Old English pool humor

I know, I know... "Don't quit my day job". Hey, I don't have a day job! I'm unemployed.

Maybe it was all the pool jokes and silly mustaches that got me fired. inch: 

fftopic: Now back to our regularly scheduled program... :whistling:


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## PhilinYuma

I never thought that i'd be posting on this thread except for admiring Oohs and AAhs and the occasional head nod in agreement. But suddenly, the second of my four CB ooths from Frey has started to hatch and I now have 30 L! nymphs.

A first minor note regards how to tell if one of these ooths has already hatched. This was a major concern when folks had ooths that weren't hatching. There is a slightly inverted zipper, and in the first ooth, that has given up 21 nymphs, it is clearly unzipped. In the second one, though, aside from a trace of exuvium, it is hard to tell which of the two ooths gave up nine babies. Frey has warned me that sometimes an ooth will hatch in bursts and should be kept in the hatching chamber, so that is what I have done.

One important thing is to make sure that you have plenty of HFs as soon as you put the ooths in the chamber. It has been mentioned here already, I think, that Idolos start out on HFs. Some are successful at their very first try, some need more trial and error, but with 30 L!s, my weekly fly consumption (not "mine" of course, I'm big enough for BBs) has suddenly increased by about 700, so be prepared!


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## sporeworld

Welcome to the club! 

I'm finding the first few days, they do better on Hydei than on House Flies. They only eat the heads off the big House Flies, and they have some trouble catching them anyway. Also, I've done a few rounds of L1 &amp; L2's with ONLY Hydei. I think they might have been "happier" with HF's, but they were fine, and probably better off.

As mentioned in an earlier post, a House Fly to fill them up, then Hydei to keep them "topped off".

Of course, NOW my subadults have begun habitually catching flies with just one claw, saving the sencond for the next fly to go by. They are insatiable PIGS!!!


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## PhilinYuma

Sporeworld said:


> Welcome to the club!
> 
> I'm finding the first few days, they do better on Hydei than on House Flies. They only eat the heads off the big House Flies, and they have some trouble catching them anyway. Also, I've done a few rounds of L1 &amp; L2's with ONLY Hydei. I think they might have been "happier" with HF's, but they were fine, and probably better off.
> 
> As mentioned in an earlier post, a House Fly to fill them up, then Hydei to keep them "topped off".
> 
> Of course, NOW my subadults have begun habitually catching flies with just one claw, saving the sencond for the next fly to go by. They are insatiable PIGS!!!


Yeah, the point about different sized houseflies is often overlooked. Chuck's (SpiderPharm) are a little on the small size, apparently what his spiders prefer. Certainly the ones that lure from outside to their deaths are larger, but I'll toss in a bunch of D. hydei tomorrow, just to be sure.


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## sporeworld

Yup! Spiderpharm are the smallest I've found (they can often get through the screen mesh on deli cups, so beware). Mantisplace seems to the medium to large size.

FYI, a week old L1 Idolo CAN take down and hold a Blue Bottle. I've seen it!

Also, I noticed on two ooths, a few nymphs that got stuck comging out of the ooth, despite a nearly 100% humidity level. No good explaination.


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## sporeworld

Anyone else notice sub adults favoring one leg...? I've got 2 that hang with one particular leg held out. When walking, they use the leg (apparently) just fine. Very odd.


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## Precarious

L1 can eat an entire medium sized blue bottle. Here is one eating a wild caught fly.


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## angelofdeathzz

Well it's about time Phil, Welcome aboard ! I do hope Jus is doing OK, she sent me a message that I won't disclose here, but it was not good news.  

And yeah Spore some of mine hold the one leg out also, no clue why as it seems to work just fine? They only do it when they want and then boom they start using it again, strange? Maybe there shear weight is giving them some sort of claw pain, so they rest it for abit?


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## sporeworld

Yeah, or maybe a burnt or damaged "toes" that makes it uncomfortable, but not impossible, to use.


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## sporeworld

Well put, Phil.

Between L3-L5 is when the space (and food) considerations REALLY smack you in the head.

My "machine" is now all setup and running smoothly... thanks to all the help, advice and contributions to this and other threads. L1 to Subadults! I've got more experiments in the works, but the system as is, functions great!

My crazy-genius tech guy is putzing with an automatic misting system, light timer, etc. But that's all overkill. Aside from weekly cleaning of the cages, I've got feeding down to just about an hour a day - less if I didn't have a lot of odds and ends species (oh, I long for the simplicity of a single species again).

Blue Bottles pupa get ordered once a week (gratuitous plug for www.mantisplace.com), which I may streamline by adding 500 spikes each order and pace them out separately.

I'm still not happy with my Sub-Adult molting "chambers". But what I have is pretty solid, but what I have planned is better and more efficient.

What I'm NOT prepared for, is the final display. The more I look at it, I don't think it's wise to keep the FEMALES in a communal enclosure. So it might be males-only. I have two very large fake ficus plants that I may put in a converted back storage room (about 10'x10') and let them free roam - but only a few hours a day (or, if well fed, alternating days), then back in the communal or solitairy for feeding. Or, screw it - just stay in the tanks! :angry:


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## angelofdeathzz

Got my first Adult male yesterday, perfectly molted, with some females not far behind. :fortuneteller: 

Keep in mind about roaming free, that females that aren't gravid can fly...


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## sporeworld

:angry: !jealousjealousjealous! :angry: 

Annnnny day now....


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> :angry: !jealousjealousjealous! :angry:
> 
> Annnnny day now....


Got my first male molt yesterday. Caught it all on video... except the flip! Turned my back for a minute and he was upright.

He's a big healthy boy. Hopefully, just in time to mate my two remaining adult females.


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## ShieldMantid1997

Sporewolrd, about your comment on the fact that your mantids do that (one leg hanging)i have two violins that do the same thing. I know its different since they are different species i just thought it might be worth saying  .


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## sporeworld

Well, I'm happy, nay, THRILLED to report, I have my first Adult Male!!! Got back from an overnighter, and SURPRISE!!






He's still brown and a little soft, but I said, "whatever" and got him out and put him on one of my girls (staff) and had a jolly good time!

He's resting in his own cage now, but he's glorious - and, btw, utterly unexpected. He was in with (what I thought were) other L6's. Seemed too small to be in the bigger boys clubhouse. Ah, well.

No great pics just yet (can't compete with Precarious, anyway), but I'll post what i get soon. Busy, busy, busy!

AND, to all those struggling with keeping these beasts well fed, I (again) recomend training your nymphs to eat crickets from your tweazers. Maybe (maybe) not gravid females, but all else seems safe... so far. I've got some of the enclosures 100% anxious to eat them, even when bloated already. Here's my "Four Hags" (they have the top shelf and lear down at everyone walking by) greedily chowing on crickets.






Once trained to do this, is much more efficient than the 8 or 10 Blue Bottles it would take to match the same relative nutrition.

Keep the faith!


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## angelofdeathzz

Yahooo the males a cometh. Now let's hope we all can have the same good results will some gals!

Don't worry Mark its Henry's job to make us feel inadequate about our photo's, It means he's doing his job properly. :lol: 

A little birdie told me he has quite a photo spread coming soon for all the Idolo lovers, you didn't hear it from me. :whistling:


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## Precarious

angelofdeathzz said:


> A little birdie told me he has quite a photo spread coming soon for all the Idolo lovers, you didn't hear it from me. :whistling:


Rumors... just rumors I tellz ya...


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## d17oug18

im wondering if the semi-translucent marbles are looks or if theirs a purpose to them? To me its what pops out the most when i see pictures of them.


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## angelofdeathzz

d17oug18 said:


> im wondering if the semi-translucent marbles are looks or if theirs a purpose to them? To me its what pops out the most when i see pictures of them.


I believe its called the "parietal eye" like in lizards it can sence light and movement in low light, but I may be wrong, we may need Dr Phil on this one...


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## RevWillie

Simple eyes or ocelli. As opposed to the large compound eyes.


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## sporeworld

OK - 2nd male molted with flying colors. Well, drab colors, but you know what I mean...

I was quite pleased to see the complete skin hanging, with all 4 feet still gripping the carpet liner after molting (proof of concept, as it were). This enclosure is right under the Bug Zapper, and we had a recent.. incident. About 50 flies got out, but zapper, net and fly strip solved the problem. 






I was also pleased to see how he managed to molt without a "flip" for wing inflation. He just let go with the back 2 feet, which changed the angle he was hanging. Once dried, he just hoisted himself back up.






Can you see the sneaky little (well, not THAT little) "Marbled Mantis" (Polyspilota aeruginosa) at the bottom...? That little (not SO little) sneak got put in there 3 molts ago, and hid in the plants when I cleaned the cages. If you've ever seen them, they crunch right down like a bark mantid, and you just can't spot them. He (or she, I don't remember) is in another enclosure now, but I didn't see her til I looked at the picture!


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## PhilinYuma

Quote. Sporeworld:

AND, to all those struggling with keeping these beasts well fed, I (again) recomend training your nymphs to eat crickets from your tweazers. Maybe (maybe) not gravid females, but all else seems safe... so far. I've got some of the enclosures 100% anxious to eat them, even when bloated already. Here's my "Four Hags" (they have the top shelf and lear down at everyone walking by) greedily chowing on crickets.

To me this seems to be major. G_d knows what flies by in the wild, but I've been in Africa, and even the mosquitoes are bigger than BBs! Flies eaten in the wild carry pollen. Ours usually do not. it might be an idea, though, to shake up the crix with some powdered pollen or Yen's Mix. I must confess that I don't bother to with flies. It might also be a good idea to feed the crix cat food with their veggies, since there is evidence that mantids are tritrophic feeders, i.e. they can derive benefit from food like pollen and animal protein that their prey has eaten and digested. This is not the same as "gut loading".


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## sporeworld

Yeah. I don't understand the insect digestive system, so I'll ask you... if I put pollen in the Blue Bottle food, will that do the trick, or does it need to be an undigested coating?


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## sporeworld

Not that I'm bragging (well, OK, I'm bragging), but today was successful molt 3 of 3 for my Idolos on Carpet-Liner. All 3 males, and gorgeous. Each a day apart. Photos processing now (I took 4 gig worth!!!).

Post soon...


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## PhilinYuma

Sporeworld said:


> Yeah. I don't understand the insect digestive system, so I'll ask you... if I put pollen in the Blue Bottle food, will that do the trick, or does it need to be an undigested coating?


Sorry for a late reply. Protein is digested in the posterior end of the midgut, so it is the last group to be transformed, but food passes pretty quickly through a fly's gut and the traditional method of feeding pollen is on the surface of the fly, which has plenty of hairs to hold it. The quick way is to put the pollen in a bag, then the flies, and shake the bag! Poison arrow frog keepers use that method, I know. Hope that helps.


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## sporeworld

Yeah, it helps, but still not sure how necessary it is, except maybe for the adult females. I'll have to look at methods of coating the flies besides bags. Hmmm...


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## d17oug18

well if your doing all these crazy things like misters and junk, why not liquify the pollen and mist it on the flies? What ever is missed the excess flies will walk over, dont know how sticky pollen is when mixed with water but thats another idea. OR or maybe use it as a subtrate! so they are gauranteed to walk and crawl over it, then all you need to do it cox them up into a bottle and BAM pollen covered flies.


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## sporeworld

Correction: 4 for 4.  4th adult molted tonight.


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## sporeworld

Here's the Boy's club (hand model is one of my very patient employees, bless her heart).











Here are the boys with a subadult gal in the middle...











Here they are with a Mottled mantis...






And the classic tennis ball shot...






And a boy and his very little (L1) brother...











So much to do. I'll post more when I can...


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## angelofdeathzz

Very nice !!!

I got my first adult female last night  so slowing down my males is working out perfectly, I now have one adult of each sex with many more to come any day now of both sexes, timing is everything unless you have 50 quadrillion Idolo's which I don't, wish I had more time to get some pics but working 10-12 hours a day the last few weeks has limited my free time fun. But I will get some soon of the adults and there molting chambers that I put together...

If nothing is done to prevent it almost all the males will try to mature first, and the females need three+ weeks at adult to even think about mating, I've talked to many Idolo veterans on this.  

Here's to wishing all the best of luck to those who are trying this beautiful species. And to Mark for making this thread and helping me out so much!


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> Correction: 4 for 4.  4th adult molted tonight.


And no females yet??? Females need a month as adult before breeding.

Nice photos!


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## sporeworld

Ha! He was crawling all over the boy, and you could tell he was annoyed. Finally, the little guy tickled a foot the wrong way, and got launched about 2 feet away! It was pretty funny. Nymph is fine.


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## sporeworld

Precarious said:


> And no females yet??? Females need a month as adult before breeding.
> 
> Nice photos!


So I heard. No, no females, but a grip of them are allllllmost ready.  

I'm not that concerned, though, as I have others males still a molt behind the females. So even if these guys are just window dressing, I'm thrilled. I'm still taking that advice and slowing them down, but nothing dramatic or risky.

Oh, and both threw threat poses at me (which I giggled at, then ignored) and parade them around the office. They stopped and just enjoyed the rest of the day. But I did get to hear the clicking noise. It was awesome!


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## sporeworld

angelofdeathzz said:


> Very nice !!!
> 
> I got my first adult female last night


Congratulations!!! What was your humidity / temp for the female during the days before the molt...?


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## angelofdeathzz

Sporeworld said:


> Congratulations!!! What was your humidity / temp for the female during the days before the molt...?


I try to keep it 90/90 during the day, and 72-75 temp and 95-100% RH at night for the females and 76-78 day temp and same RH for the males, I guess I shouldn't say try as I'm a stickler for getting it right this time, I'll spare no dread to get it done all the way to hatching ooth's.

Call me arrogant but I'm Very Happy with all my planning and cage designs, seems to be all working out in spades, well so far?

Your shear numbers will get it done for you for sure, not that your doing anything wrong at all, but the masses will give you a decisive edge on most of us, not to mention all the walking art forms you'll have.


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## PhilinYuma

O.K. Idolo experts. Enough fun. Here's a Newbie No No Note for other new and ambitious but totally clueless Idolo keepers. I was surprised to find that although my L1s had grown considerably, I found no cast skins and *I didn't know that they change color when they molt to L2! * :angry: I sent out twenty L1s, by mistake, to an experienced friend, who has since set me straight, and lost over a third of them, even though they were in individual 2oz pots. Ironically, although I am against sending out L1s, I sent a bunch of another species to a friend who lives much further away, all in one pot with excelsior, and they did fine. Are baby elephants that fragile too?

Now, of course, all the remaining nymphs from that batch are at L2 and smirking at me.


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## angelofdeathzz

Phil Phil Phil, you live and learn even at your age and generous mind set. L2 and L3 will be a glorious much loved purple with pink hues, then you know you have L4's when they go tan, no more color changes till adult and that may be the Great Mantis Goddess (BbHN) best trick she ever did, simply beautiful!!! I'm surprised Jus didn't fill you in more?


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## PhilinYuma

angelofdeathzz said:


> Phil Phil Phil, you live and learn even at your age and generous mind set. L2 and L3 will be a glorious much loved purple with pink hues, then you know you have L4's when they go tan, no more color changes till adult and that may be the Great Mantis Goddess (BbHN) best trick she ever did, simply beautiful!!! *I'm surprised Jus didn't fill you in more?*


Probably didn't realize I was that ignorant!


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## sporeworld

Yeah, and "ignorant", as you (the wordsmith) know, is a good word to use. Now that you know, no more ignorance. 

I've begun shipping all my idolos in empty (no excelsior) containers, that are 100% lined. No matter what direction they get bounced around, they can get a new handhold. Even excelsior can crush or tangle them, however unlikely. But nymphs recover well from a short fall.

Also, watch the rim of the container, as they try to wedge through it and can get stuck. I put a sheet of screen over the top, and THEN closed the lid. This eliminated the rim entirely.

Edit: Hope that didn't come off as inflamatory. I'm ignorant of 80% of what you (Phil) write! I have to google most of the historical posts!


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## sporeworld

Thanks. 2 updates:

1. My first female of this round molted. She seems healthy, but her wings aren't quite right. She's not perfectly straight either, making me think either she dried awkward, or fell and got back up. I'll keep watching her, but the way her wings are ruffled, she looks too tempting to be in with others after she dries. (Edit: 3 days later, she's doing fine. Eatting plenty and looking grumpy).

2. There's this phenomena that we've started calling "The Dripping Death". We've discussed it on the forum before. It starts with one claw hanging limp, but everything else seems fine. A day or so later, the other claw limps as well. Soon, the whole mantid starts sagging and barely hanging on. 3 or 4 days later, the mantis will be dead - probably still hanging on by a stubborn claw.

It was suggested in earlier discussions, that this might be molt related (I think Phil called it) and I think that's about right. As far as I can tell, it's not contagious, and seems untreatable. I still remove them from the others, and I'm too squeamish to feed them to others, even if I thought it would do no harm. Let me know if anyone has had a mantis pull out of this.


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## bravado

Sporeworld: What is that grid inside of your enclosures that your Idolomantises hang from? I've been encrafting matrices of birch twigs but I dread doing it again -- too involved. Your synthetic alternative looks very nice; that male looks to have had no problem remaining firmly planted during molt, even through the flip!


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## sporeworld

It's nylon Carpet Liner - available at JoAnn Fabrics, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. You can also just use shelf liner that I've seen at CVS, Target, even the dollar store.

For the insides of the cage, stick to everyone (else's) advice and go with twigs. Once my army has passed through to adult, I'll be more inclined to make different recommendations.


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## d17oug18

I use bamboo sticks, they look good, ergonomic, and cheap. I use them for almost anything!


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## sporeworld

Update: One ooth has been spacing out the nymphs - about 3 at a time, about 3 days apart. very odd. This has SOME corrolation to the hudity schedule of completely soaking, then letting dry. This is WAY fuzzy matj/logic, but I took a page from Phil and started soak/dry cycles, instead of daily misting. And it SEEMS (huge emphasis on SEEMS), to have an effect. I don't have any kind of numbers to do any real research. But seems noteworthy.


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## sporeworld

Two more females molted today. I can see the need to reposition a lot in my enclosures. She had trouble getting comfortable while inflating her wings. She wanted to hang from 2 legs and her claws, and let the other 2 legs dangle. But she'd try to get a grip with those back legs every few minutes. I moved the equivalent of a foot stool under her, and she finally relaxed. I'll try to post pics tonight.

Her sister is in the cage right next to her (they molted about 4 hours apart). I put her in an all stick enclosure as a comparison (happy, now!?!). I need to get some sleep, so I won't be around for her full inflate (or the flip), but I'll keep y'all posted.


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## sporeworld

Very funny.

So, two very healthy female molts. They look great! And what an emotional rollercoaster!

Here's a few pics of GIRL 1...

She had her back to the glass, which was good. I got paranoid about the fern, and added another branch, but it wasn't necessary.







Here she is inflating her wings, same as the boys did.






Here she is fully inflated. She stayed in essentially this position for about 3 hours.











And... done!

Girl 1


----------



## sporeworld

Here's Girl 2 early in the molt.

Her enclosure is all oak branches, but I got a little paranoid, and added sponges to the bottom, just in case. She didn't need them.











Here's Girl 2's perilous grip on the tippy-tip=tip of an acorn. Terrifying!






Here she is after climbing back up the skin and getting repositioned...






Girl 2 beginning to inflate her wings...











Girl 2 - Molt complete!


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## ShieldMantid1997

My "first class" species is Sino but Idolos r close behind!


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## sporeworld

Update:

One of my females that molted to adult 2 days ago, is limp and nearly lifeless today, for no apparent cause. No cuts, bruises or abrasions. She didn't fall. Humidity was above 50%, temp between 72-75f.

The only thing I can point to, is that she was in with live (cut) plants (California Wild Oak). No other suspects.

She had not begun eating yet (I usually see that around day 3), and her colors were just starting to come in.

Her sister, that molted a few hours before her, but is in an artificial enclosure shows no sign of lethargy.

I'm positive she won't improve, and I'll freeze her in a few hours.

Has anyone seen this before...?


----------



## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> Has anyone seen this before...?


I had a damaged pre-sub last time around missing a few legs that successfully molted to sub. Everything seemed to be going well. Then a month later she hung limp, her bowels emptied over a few days and finally she just died. No idea why it happened but she had eaten a cricket the day before. Not sure if that had anything to do with it.


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## sporeworld

Hmmm. I know she hasn't eaten anything yet.

I'll keep looking for clues...


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## angelofdeathzz

Was her mouth or head unusually dark, and raptors hanging down lower than normal?


----------



## sporeworld

I've tried to update the caresheet at the beginning of this thread. If anyone has notes to add to it, please chime in.

Once thing I added was about L1-L2 feeding. I'm convinced that it's far better to just feed them lots of Hydei. The House Flies and (for L2's) Blue Bottles cause too much stress, and frequently knock them from their perches. Whatever nutrition may be gained, isn't worth the risk. So, my advice to new breeders is to stick to Hydei - cheaper, easier, and safer. I did about 30 nymphs like this, that are now L4, and are doing fine.

Under debate still is L1-L2 enclosures. I have done well with glass aquariums, and can keep the humidity higher, but I think I'd still suggest people use a 12" net cube (I know, out of character for me). Less chance of cannibalism (they can always see it coming), and very easy to see, chase and catch prey. Nothing to get stuck on, or in. Some risk of side-molting,but if kept humid, probably minimal losses. Never seen mold or mildew in my net cages, but it's a constant battle in my aquariums.

Thoughts...?


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## sporeworld

angelofdeathzz said:


> Was her mouth or head unusually dark, and raptors hanging down lower than normal?


No dark areas anywhere, just body-wide lethargy. I picked her up by her wings, and everything just sort of sagged.

I got her to mouth some banana, but there was no zeal in it.


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## angelofdeathzz

Sorry to hear that, hope it's just a random case and a one time thing. I was asking(the above) to see if it was the same as when we both had a random death and they held there raptors over there head kind of like a molt to come or a headache type look?

You can keep FF's in a net cage? I used 80oz deli's with cloth lid at L1 for a day or two to feed them FF's then switched to house flies with a screen lids still at L1(10-12 nypmhs per deli) with good resualts compared to the cloth lid and only FF's only(many more died), but never gave BB's till L3-4 as they are to big and could knock them down plus they waste alot and only eat part of the BB's and throw the rest down.


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## sporeworld

angelofdeathzz said:


> ...I was asking(the above) to see if it was the same as when we both had a random death and they held there raptors over there head kind of like a molt to come or a headache type look?


Yeah. If it IS that, it happened WAY quicker than I've seen, and would DIS-prove my theory that it is pre-molt related. This happened within 12 hours.



angelofdeathzz said:


> You can keep FF's in a net cage?


For sure! I'm talking about the Monarch Castles, or Butterfly Cubes, or whatever they're called - the white, tight mesh ones, with the one clear plastic side. Nothing gets out, (or in) as long as the zipper is up tight. Even wild fruit flies can't get IN. I've used them with a wad of moss in the center, or a smudge of fruit fly medium for the ff's.

Edit: You can find them at: http://www.livemonarch.com/castle.htm


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## sporeworld

Update: I didn't put her in the freezer, yet. But she's long gone. Still no idea why.

On a brighter note, had another male molt to adult. No incidents at all. So, for molting, I'm 7-1-0. Seven molts without incident, one a little mangled, but doing fine, and no losses (from molting, anyway). So far, so good!


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## sporeworld

So, I ended up wedging in strips of Pool Noodle one of my Imminent Molt enclosure. Worked out pretty well.

You can see how she used them to steady herself at different stages. She only knocked off ONE of her legs from it's grip, climbing back up. She used the same wing inflation trick as her brothers and sisters.







You can also see her somewhat-mangled sister in the background. Her wings are funky, and she's kinda bent, but she's eating (and pooping) just fine.


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## sporeworld

Note: The kinda-mangled girl (Queen Richard), is doing great. Healthy appetite, good color. She's just clumsy and has goofy wings. I'm doubtful she'll attract any males, but who knows.


----------



## RevWillie

Sporeworld said:


> Note: The kinda-mangled girl (Queen Richard), is doing great. Healthy appetite, good color. She's just clumsy and has goofy wings. I'm doubtful she'll attract any males, but who knows.


Are the males that picky?  Have you thought of trimming off the vertical part of the goofy wings?


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## sporeworld

RevWillie said:


> Are the males that picky?
> 
> 
> 
> Have you thought of trimming off the vertical part of the goofy wings?


Hahah! I thought about it, but probably not until after the boys have said "not interested". Besides, some of my staff think she's the pretty one! Eye of the beholder, and all that.

Does kind of look like a cape...


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## sporeworld

Alice said:


> ... what a nymph.. that makes me giggle because its hard to call these guys nymphs anymore.


Amen! They are beasts!

Two more perfect molts last night. One boy, one girl. Humidity low (about 40%). Not on purpose. Didn't seem to matter. All molted on the top, with some assistance for either fake plants or sponges.

Has anyone noticed their eyes getting kind of reddish before a molt...? Might just be cooincidence.

Also...had my first subadult "Dripping Death", or whatever. Just started "wilting" over the course a few hours. None have ever survived once it starts. This one I touched as soon as I noticed it, and it felt just like it was going to molt - cool and clammy. I'm more convinced it's something to do with molting.


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## angelofdeathzz

After a long hard fight against the odds and many a series of ups and downs(mostly up), I'm very happy to report a successful mating with my 19 day adult Female and my oldest male(25+ days), The other three younger males get to sit and watch in a jealous stare, the second oldest male(21 days) was not happy the other got there first and got in the mix, well he tried but the female boxed him away as if to say "excuse me can't you see were busy here".

Most of the shots are through the glass as not to disturb them to much, they mated for 4 hours, he stayed on her and they did it again later that night. In the morning he was off her and no damage or even fighting happened the whole 28 hour duration. I'm ecstatic to say the least!!!


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## Precarious

You did it! Congratulations.


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## sporeworld

UPDATE: Record now for successful adult molts here in SpongeWorld is 8 males and 4 females. Plus, 1 less-than perfect molting Female (She's doing fine) and one perfect molt Female that died 2 days later for no obvious reason.

All are still living communally, although separated by gender. No other oddities or injuries to report, except 2 males each have one half-formed antenae - possibly from before the molt. Doesn't seem to affect their behavior.

I'm scheduled to introduce the female Thursday night, provided I see her calling.

All this is only 5 days later than predicted on page one of this thread. So, thanks to Precarious, Yen and a number others who shared their numbers with us. Keep the faith!


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## angelofdeathzz

Well Photobucket finaily let me post these, had some upload problems last few days? Laid on the 20th so will see about a new adult molt, mate, ooth, hatch time table I think?

Mid lay, I caught her!






The fruits of labor!






Guarding her ooth, she is a bad azz!


----------



## mantiscraze

Can we "domesticate" these so that they are as hardy and easy to care for as budwings? Not in my lifetime?


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## angelofdeathzz

@Mantiscraze: No they will never be very easy to raise, but with proper RH and good molting surfaces it can be done. But even still then not all will see adulthood, but their overall beauty and size makes it worth it to try, at least that's how I feel?

These are my favorite mantis by far, 2nd to none!

I will get the people that think they have the right stuff, some of these very soon, the biggest thing that needs to be done is simply keep the Humidity(RH) 70-90%(mainly at night) for easier and proper molting. 2nd is something for their feet to lock into(Sporeworlds grid netting or sticks with the bark still on) once those issues are addressed your chances increase 10 fold. High heat is very low on the list of must do things, 84-88 or so is all they need or want really (till mating).


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## Precarious

angelofdeathzz said:


> I will get the people that think they have the right stuff, some of these very soon, the biggest thing that needs to be done is simply keep the Humidity(RH) 70-90%(mainly at night) for easier and proper molting. 2nd is something for their feet to lock into(Sporeworlds grid netting or sticks with the bark still on) once those issues are addressed your chances increase 10 fold. High heat is very low on the list of must do things, 84-88 or so is all they need or want really (till mating).


I would second all of that and add that the key to breeding is having a large culture. That takes a lot of commitment. _AND a whole lot of flies_. I don't think there is any way around it. Other species you can end up with an adult of each sex and breed the next generation. I see no indication that is possible with Idolo. I don't know anyone who has successfully mated a single male to a single female. If anyone knows otherwise please fill me in.

Also be aware that as adults the only proper gripping surface is branches (or something similarly spaced and textured). I have seen them snag their claws and feet in every type of screen and mesh, including the mesh used in Apogee Reptarium cages. Only the loosest meshes are safe and then they have difficulty feeding on them.


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## alicenwnderlnd

i am a little slower than you guys, all of mine are sub-adult. i think my boys are about to molt though, have some pretty swollen bud-wings. other than that they are doing great! no real problems at all. defiantly my favorite mantis!


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## angelofdeathzz

Glad it's all going well for you Alice(;

I had more good fortune, I may rename my self angeloflife if all goes well?

2nd ooth from my prego girl, can't believe I caught her again on film???


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## Termite48

Nick: Congratulations are definitely in order here for all your work, the mantis' cooperation and the end result of two (so far) oothecae. Please, when you get time, post for the rest of us a normal time elapsed from mating to 1st ooth, 2nd ooth. The 2nd item of intested for me, especially since I am the caretaker of two oothecae from a long way across the pond, what is the normal dimensions of an Idolo ooth, and if possible the weight of a fertile ooth. I will share my info as well. The two I am incubating are approximately 5 cm in length and 2.5-2.8 cm in width. Good job!


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## sporeworld

Again, nice work! Love the Tiger's logo on the lighter!

Nick: The numbers on the first page of this thread are accurate on my count two times through - I was late by only 5 days, and I've kept them much cooler than the last time around (so not a huge change in numbers based on temp for me).

Not sure the weight of the ooths is going to be much use, as size REALLY varies. If you haven't read other posts from Phil and a few others (and I agree), there's is a growing interest in a drench/dry approach for the ooths, instead of a constant humidity. Warm/cold, dry/wet. Since we KNOW they hatch in trnasit on long (5-day plus) journeys, light CAN'T be the only trigger that get's them hatching. or at least, it's not that simple. Well, at least we KNOW they CAN hatch in the dark.


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## angelofdeathzz

I need to bring my tape measure in from my van lol and measure them, sorry I will soon I promise Rich. But here is some 4 day old news from me that I finally had time to bring you, I know I make you sick with the good news, but 2nd female is mated!!!

Just shoot me(;


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## sporeworld

UPDATES:

A few health issues I've been meaning to present here.

1. Shield Rot...?

Below is a picture of an Idolo male with what I call Shield Rot. Never seen it before, and not sure what it is. It's been a week and he doesn't seem bothered by it. I'll post more if it seems to affect his health.






2. Chinese libido knows no boundaries

Here's a pic of what happened when I put a small male Chinese in my Idolo pen for a few hours. He tried to mount my day-old adult Male... Crazy!






3. It's not ALL bad news...

Here's a pic of one of my gals from a few weeks back, that had trouble inflating her wings (we think she may have fell at some point, and got back up). Weeks later, she's healthy, eating well, and calling regularly (but the boys won't have anything to do with her). But she's evidence that a bad molt isn't ALWAYS a death sentence (but, generally it IS... sigh).


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## sporeworld

HEALTH UPDATE:

Two other mysteries solved...

1. CURVED LEGS

I've had larger nymphs come out of a molt with curved legs. I finally got to witness this happening. A large female molted a few inches from the front glass - the only surface not (yet) coated with something gripable.

When she was stabilizing herself, I watched as she tried over and over to brace herself with the foot, unable to grip anything. She did it so many times, that she re-shaped her leg in a curve, and flattened out the hooks on her tips.

After about an hour, that leg was worthless. So, when it came time to flip and inflate her wings, since it was one of her front legs, she couldn't get the angle right, and the wings were perfectly straight, but wouldn't close completely. Wish I'd have gotten pictures.

He overall look was not DIS-similar to the female pictured above. She is more lethargic than her sisters in the same circumstances, and I'm doubtful of her survival chances.

I will probably/possibly add a thin "ribs" to the glass (similar to your rear window defrosters).

2. MESSY WINDOWS

A long time ago, I posted that the back wall behind my screen enclosures looked like a Jackson Pollack painting - all splatters of something or other. I thought it might be blood and guts that squirted out when my Idolos &amp; Gongy's bit into a fly. But I finally got to see what it really was - first hand.

I had never noticed before that my mantids didn't JUST have solid waste. But I watched an L4ish mantis shoot out a small jet of liquid from his hind quarters. It looked like a cat spraying a bush with urine. Where it hit the glass matched the spray on the wall. Somehow, I had never seen that happen before.


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## massaman

I just got a few of them recently as l1s and are l2 now and out of 5 I have 2 are left.I can say that I keep them in the same conditions as my other species in room temperature with little or no humidity and they seem to be adjusted just as well as the other species. so it is my observation is one size does fit all usually and would work on most species of mantis using the same conditions unless its a real exotic species needing extremely humid conditions. So i think keeping them at the same temperature and the same environment works for me though most would disagree. but I find it is not a problem in my experience!


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## angelofdeathzz

As far as your wrinkled wing gal, I think it may be hard for a male to mount her? But hey you never know Bud, I wish her/you well and I'm sure she's loving all the extra attention I know you and your staff give her(;

Update: 2nd Female laid her first ooth this morning, so 3 in total now, all fertile out of 3 laid.

And Massaman, to each his own by all means! But we/us have put in alot of time and effort into writing all these pages and going from step A to Z for all to see and learn from, but hey I wish you luck on your method of no special treatment, do keep us posted on that.


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## LLCoolJew

Wow! As my people say: MAZEL TOV!


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## sporeworld

Yeah, I think she's a novelty, and not going to be mated, unless i cut the wings (which I kind of think is a visual cue - note the Chinese male mounting the winged female... Although, the same thing happened with a short-winged female Violin, so maybe not).

And massaman - keep us posted. I don't predict sucess, but this thread illustrates plenty of exceptions (and a few new "rules"). See keep us in the loop!


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## angelofdeathzz

So is that a male or female the Chinese is on, you've said both?

Do be careful if you trim her wings, I've never done it but I hear they run the risk of bleeding out, and super glue would be to hard to use in that location?


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## alicenwnderlnd

My males have finally molted to adult and girls are close to fallow. i had no molting issues and they all look good. As i read through the post, its awesome to see the great success everyone is having with molting and breeding, i hope i am soon to join in. Hands down for me this has been the most rewarding species and getting ooths(and hatching them) will be the ultimate reward!


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## Termite48

Nick, you mentioned that you have had three oothecae laid to date and that all are fertile. Is this based on that you have seen the matings, or is there a method of candling the ooth that lets you know that there are virile embryonic nymphs inside the ooth?


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## angelofdeathzz

Rich: I caught and photographed each female mating/connected for more than 4 hours each, the first girl mated twice. It's been posted here for all to see? Look above and on the previous page. So no I don't have absolute proof the male seeded her, but it's as close to a sure thing as I can get.


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## meaganelise9

Thanks for such an informative post. I do have one question (and I'm sorry if it's been covered before- it's hard to search for): What does IGM # 25 mean? Does it refer to the specific species of the insect?


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## guapoalto049

meaganelise9 said:


> Thanks for such an informative post. I do have one question (and I'm sorry if it's been covered before- it's hard to search for): What does IGM # 25 mean? Does it refer to the specific species of the insect?


The IGM list is for enthusiasts that would like to know specific information about their mantids. For example, IGM 198 is a stock of Idolomantis from Musoma, Tanzania. This is a geographically distinct group that is slightly different that the Idolomantis of IGM 130 stock (Kenyan group that is somewhat smaller with more vibrant colors).

It is similar to humans: We are all _Homo sapien_, yet there are geographical differences in phenotype (looks), genetic predispositions, etc.

Some stocks have been diluted throughout the trade, particularly of the very common species.


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## meaganelise9

Oh, interesting. Thanks. So I suppose if someone is selling me something and refers to a particular number, he probably knows what he's doing.


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## sporeworld

Update: I've got my adult Idolos now in very large net cubes (something like 35" across). They are under the heat lamps for warmth, and I should have the Repti-fogger setup later tonight.

I lined the top (and one side) of one of the cubes with the same nylon carpet liner (mesh) I've been using in most of the cages. It's working out really well. They ALWAYS hold on to the mesh - adjusting until they're off the netcube mesh, and firmly on the nylon liner.

I have some concerns that their feet and claws will get stuck in the net cube mesh (I've seen it with other species).

They seem to mate more freely in the larger, better ventilated enclosure. Speculation, of course.

I still have my eye on the really, really big Net cages... just not sure where to put it.


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## angelofdeathzz

Yeah please keep us up to date on how the big net cube mesh works out, I was worried about the snagging of the tarsus, getting stuck or damaged?

Update: I'm now closing in on a half dozen fertile ooths, one laid this morning. And I plan on keeping all the babies for myself! Just kidding, I will throw a Idolo nymph party and everyone is invited, but only if my males spunk was good, time will tell? Fingers crossed.


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## sporeworld

My first boy looks to be winding down. I didn't record what day he molted, but it's been more than a month, so I'm pretty happy with that. He did his "job", and can now rest in peace. Good night, sweet prince!


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## twolfe

I need advice... My first two males molted to adults, and they have the same condition. They don't hold their wings tight to their body. I'm not sure how to explain it. I can take a photo if you don't know what I'm talking about. The first one has a slight crease in one of his inner wings. When he was inflating, I don't think he was in the right position. The second one molted yesterday morning, and I kept an eye on him. He appeared to be doing everything right, but his wings still look like the others. Now I've had a male Ghost mate with a female with this condition, but I've never had a male molt with a female that didn't have the wings folded correctly. Any ideas what might be causing this and whether there is anything I can do to prevent this? My third (and last male) is inflating his wings now.

Also, I would love to know if people kept track of how many nymphs they started with, what instar they were when they got them, and how many of those made it to adults.


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## Precarious

Tammy Wolfe said:


> I need advice... My first two males molted to adults, and they have the same condition. They don't hold their wings tight to their body. I'm not sure how to explain it. I can take a photo if you don't know what I'm talking about. The first one has a slight crease in one of his inner wings. When he was inflating, I don't think he was in the right position. The second one molted yesterday morning, and I kept an eye on him. He appeared to be doing everything right, but his wings still look like the others. Now I've had a male Ghost mate with a female with this condition, but I've never had a male molt with a female that didn't have the wings folded correctly. Any ideas what might be causing this and whether there is anything I can do to prevent this? My third (and last male) is inflating his wings now.
> 
> Also, I would love to know if people kept track of how many nymphs they started with, what instar they were when they got them, and how many of those made it to adults.


I would guess they are unable to hang at the proper angle. What I see them do is hang by the tips of the raptor claws and the first set of legs. That puts their body at about 45 degrees and the wings almost vertical. If the wings dry before they are fully inflated they will be puffed up and won't lay right. All you can really do is give them plenty of branches and other perches to hang from so they can find the right spot.

I got my last generation as six L1 nymphs and all but two made it to adult. One died molting to L2 and another fell while molting to L7, made it to L8 then died a few days later. I put a lot of work into making sure she molted to L8 so it was disappointing that she then died for no reason.


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## sporeworld

+1 to Precarious.

Best situation I've seen for them is as he described - hanging by raptors and front 2 legs (back ones dangle, usually). One of my females with a damaged front leg was doomed to an odd wing config, since she couldn't get the right angle with the bad tarsus. Otherwise, she's healthy, but the boys won't "play: with her.

I've had a few with sliiiightly offset wings... usually because some obstruction in the enclosure got in the way when inflating (my subadult enclosures are very sparse now).

I see a few cases of mismolt (stuck in the skin somehow). Almost always when the humidity slip below 40%.

Also, I finally got one suffering from "The Dripping Death" to molt. He didn't SURVIVE the molt, but I'm positive now, it's molt-related. But I've never seen this phenomena in any other species.


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## angelofdeathzz

I've found that about 2-3 in 10 will make it to adult and live out a healthy life all the way to old age and die from natural causes, but I was still learning, so now with the next flock I'm shooting for 5-6 out of 10, I've learned alot with this fairly large batch I started with, so at the risk of sounding arrogant please just follow the steps I've written in these pages along with some other peoples Great notes and it is possible to get them to adult, I'm just a PM away if ANYONE needs some help or advice as some of you already know.

Keep in mind unless you live in Africa these will always be a challenge, but the rewards are GREAT and totally worth it for me anyway. I think I may have had some good success with these in recent times and want to help others do the same!


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## angelofdeathzz

I had my first Hatch and it was HUGE, you can't really tell from the pic but there over 75 nymph's in there that have been moved from the 80oz deli to a 12x12 net cage, NO death's in over a week now, all are eating house flies still at L1 with some ff's mixed in there for any that are more timid, but from what I see they ALL love the house flies!

I do have them up for sale at a nice low price if anyone wants some, just check the for sale section.







well ventilated deli's are key


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## Sparky

Cool I haven't been here in years and the last time I was on, keeping Idolomantis diabolicas were only a dream now I see some on the classifieds for reasonable prices and a whole thread dedicated on their care. I've kept species of other critters in other hobbies known to be "difficult" that weren't actually that hard once I got them. Seeing from what I've read on here these guys have proven to be a struggle for even the most experienced breeders on here. I been thinking about trying out these guys since they are a little more affordable now and I would little to attempt at finding a way around their fussy requirements. Like having them in 3 seperate enclosures,

1) Preferred recorded living conditions

2) One with slightly less heat (room temperature)

3) One with slightly low humidity

I would also like to separate a few nymphs that are in the preferred living conditions and feed them exclusively on ground insects like roaches while the others will be fed exclusively flying insects to see if I notice a difference. If they are able to molt to adulthood and breed then I don't see all the fuss about their care ,but until then we'll have to go by the book.


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## Precarious

Sparky said:


> I would also like to separate a few nymphs that are in the preferred living conditions and feed them exclusively on ground insects like roaches while the others will be fed exclusively flying insects to see if I notice a difference.


I predict the difference you will notice is those fed exclusively on ground insects will soon die of starvation... unless you plan on hand-feeding them just about every meal. I can appreciate wanting to find the ideal conditions but I would scratch that variable off the list. They prefer flying insects over any other feeders without exception. I think everyone here would agree with that assessment.

I think what we're finding is they do relatively well in just about any conditions short of too dry, which is normal for any species. I raise mine without extra heat while others add heat, which only seems to increase their maturation rate. Their enclosure is the biggest factor as to whether or not you end up with adults. Pay the most attention to that and you will likely do fine. It would seem all the failures early on were due to falls from using the wrong surfaces to molt. Given the right surfaces the failure rate drops dramatically.

That being said, they are still not easy to breed. Getting adults is one thing. Producing viable ooths is another.

Hats off to Angelofdeathzz!

You should definitely get some. Really worth the effort. You will love them!

I mean... c'mon...


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## lunarstorm

Nice post Precarious, lets summarize.

&lt;Oldtime Forum User&gt; Holy cow, I haven't been to this place in years! When I was a young lad here, raising Idolomantis Diabolica was just a twinkle in our eyes. I wonder if I pull it off...

&lt;Precarious&gt; Yes, yes you should. Come into my lair, let me show you my drugs.

Precarious reaches into his trenchcoat and produces awesome pictures that inspire diabolical greed* to mantid fans.

...To Be Continued?

*har har!


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## Precarious

lunarstorm said:


> &lt;Precarious&gt; Yes, yes you should. Come into my lair, let me show you my drugs.
> 
> Precarious reaches into his trenchcoat and produces awesome pictures that inspire diabolical greed* to mantid fans.


Ha-ha...  That's right. I'm a pusher and the newest designer kick is called Idolo.

You know you want it... :devil:


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## Sparky

Precarious said:


> I predict the difference you will notice is those fed exclusively on ground insects will soon die of starvation... unless you plan on hand-feeding them just about every meal.


I just wanted to say that most of these have been successfully kept in screen cages and or anything else that can help Idolo's to the top of the cage. I've kept unicorn mantids before and I'm pretty sure you would agree with me on saying that they usually stick to their little spot at the top of the enclosure and enjoy just hanging around in one spot, even for days at a time. If you heard of B. lateralis they are a species of roach that are increasingly becoming more popular as feeders and are preferred over crickets by many hobbyists. In my experience if you take these guys out of hiding and drop them into the open they will scamper around like mad and I've used these to feed my unicorn mantids. I'll just drop a few into its enclosure and if its a screen/mesh/ butterfly netting type deal they would usually run all over the walls and to the top where they were eaten but you will have a few smart ones that stay at the bottom, I just hand feed the left overs.

I'm not saying that this idea is bomb proof , I just want to try it out as a trial and error kinda thing and share my experience.

Oh and don't worry, if I wanted flies all I would have to do is open the patio door  and thanks for the tip. The thing I'm worried about most is the surface they will molt on and molting issues. I'm not really worried about humidity or heat, I've kept things that stress the importance of heat and humidity which I pretty much don't make a big deal out of and never usually use anything special and everything I've had always thrived more than they should.


----------



## angelofdeathzz

I just need to say I never fed mine anything but flying food and never will, there's a myth and or truth(not sure really)that crix and other ground type feeders have to much protein and other things that can effect ooth's in a negative way in this type of species, so feed them at your own risk, I have over 150 nymphs from 3 ooths so far and I'll just go with what I know works! (;


----------



## Precarious

Sparky said:


> The thing I'm worried about most is the surface they will molt on and molting issues. I'm not really worried about humidity or heat, I've kept things that stress the importance of heat and humidity which I pretty much don't make a big deal out of and never usually use anything special and everything I've had always thrived more than they should.


No sweat, I wasn't trying to pick on you or anything. I just want you to have happy, healthy nymphs if you do decide to try Idolo. But be aware they are not Unicorns by a long shot. I've never had a Unicorn mismolt even with minimal attention. You won't get that result with Idolo. In their case humidity will make a difference. Ask anyone here who keeps them. And you are right to focus on the surfaces in your enclosure, especially for later molts.


----------



## Sparky

Ok cool, I'm going to keep them by the book but I also I really want to have a separate tank with a couple of Idolos in it so I can crack down a couple of myths and see if I can't make it a little easier to keep these guys. Roaches have been used to feed many things without usually causing any noticeable damage and in a way B. lateralis are kind of like semi flyers, well more like gliders... I'll let you guys know how it goes once I get a couple of things situated and get back into the hobby.

I'll start a diary thread or something on their conditions. I really can't wait to get back into the hobby and breed some idolos.

My plan is to raise a couple of these guys as L1's then raise them to adulthood by the book at first. I won't actually start the myth busting phase until I have at least successfully bred them.


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## meaganelise9

I know I've tried feeding mine a number of things, and she won't even touch most crawling food (except one spider I found in my bathroom).


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## angelofdeathzz

I'm very pleased in the fact that I did what I set out to do long ago, which is get these bred and in culture in the USA at a good price point so more people can try there hand at a once very rare, misunderstood mantis, that is also very stunning and beautiful. I would also like to thank everyone for all the input and Idea's that have sprang up a long the way, I didn't just succeed, we all did it as a team which is very cool in my book!

Has anyone heard from Sporeworld lately, he seem's to have dropped off the face of the earth?


----------



## Precarious

angelofdeathzz said:


> Has anyone heard from Sporeworld lately, he seem's to have dropped off the face of the earth?


Sh!t, you didn't see the news?

Sorry to break this to you, buddy...


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## angelofdeathzz

Holy cow Batman! That is bad news!!! :lol: and why does that cloud in the back ground look like a old man with alot of hair and beard go'n on? subliminal messages?


----------



## sporeworld

Nice headline.  "Shenanigans", indeed! (Man, I WISH gravity would reverse like that - what a way to go!)

Forum dropped right before I went on a two-week work adventure (exhausting). Sporeworld (the person and the place) are doing fine. My bugsitter did a great job while I was gone.

I've got 8 ooths and 18 adults, with (lots) more on the way. Adult males are averaging a little over a month, as predicted. Haven't lost a female yet.

All adults are living in modified (of course) Large net cages. No losses to cannibalism.

Cages that had perpetual, or near-perpetual light had identical results as those with lights on timers. Due to nearby computer monitors going 24/7, complete darkenss has never really been possible for any of my critters.

As Precarious and Angelofdeathzz pointed out above, molting surfaces and humidity (above 40% rh) seem to be the big must-have's. Crickets seem fine, if you're willing to hand-feed (I've got a few trained to pick them off on occassion). Temps above 70f seem necessary to keep them feeding. And a portion of them just seem to have dead-end genes, mature slowly, fall behind the others, and eventually die. No idea why. I battled quite a bit with mildew and mold in some of my cages, but more frequent housekeeping, alternate substrates (I really like coconut fibers) and Nick's vinegar spray idea, seemed to win out in the end.

All in all, a great adventure. We should have them solidly on the market now, at affordable prices. Hopefully we'll get them in many different hands, and keep the breed in culture here in the states.

I think the openning page of this thread can stand as-is. If anyone thinks we need to add or ammend, let me know.

Now I'm off to dig through mountains and mountains of paperwork. Sigh.

Take care!


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## angelofdeathzz

That's great news Mark, I hope you have many, many babies from them all! Glad your alright, you must have been pack'n a parachute, or did that Zeus like cloud thing save you? Ha ha...


----------



## yen_saw

angelofdeathzz said:


>


Congrates!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: you did it :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## angelofdeathzz

Well I now have had my first 3 ooths hatch in the order they were laid by 2 different females, so needless to say I'm very happy about that.

If anyone would like some just PM me. A few L3-4's left, some L2's and a new hatch of L1's, I'm doing some record breaking prices on them to help other's enjoy them with out breaking the bank or taking a chance over seas.


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## meaganelise9

Ugh.. Sometimes I just wanna take a cricket and some discarded wings and glue them together with honey... Think she'd know the difference?

k, yeah, probably.


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## Precarious

meaganelise9 said:


> Ugh.. Sometimes I just wanna take a cricket and some discarded wings and glue them together with honey... Think she'd know the difference?
> 
> k, yeah, probably.


Get used to maggots. They are your best friend when you have Idolo.

General info for everyone:

I buy maggots 1,000 at a time from Grubco.com. Comes out to about 20 shipped. Maggots last up to 2 months refrigerated. Pupae last less than 2 weeks.

I leave about 250 out to pupate (usually withing 24 hours) in a shoebox sized enclosure with a screen lid. Then its 8-10 days before they hatch.

Once they hatch allow them to feed a few days. I keep water crystals and fly food in there. Sprinkle some fresh food each day.

Then I keep them refrigerated. Put the whole container in the fridge. That way they are always docile and ready to go. They last a very long time that way. If your going to keep them over a long period give them a day out of the fridge to eat and drink about once a week.

I take the next batch of maggots out to pupate once the first batch starts to hatch. That's the timing that works for me. May be different for you depending on how many you hatch vs how many you go through in 10-12 days.


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## meaganelise9

Haha Thanks. That is helpful. I'm learning to keep more around..


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## Precarious

meaganelise9 said:


> Haha Thanks. That is helpful. I'm learning to keep more around..


I find that if I stop washing, using deoderant and changing my clothes the flies just show up. Its weird.


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## meaganelise9

So do we have any clearer timeline now than on page one as far as the length of time between L6 and L7 and onward?


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## sporeworld

I think that timeline is just about right. Some variance in heat and nutrition.

And Precarious' suggestion on the maggots is spot on.


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## angelofdeathzz

@ Meagan,The last 2 molt's are more unpredictable than the first 6-7, I've noticed a wide range of molting times in siblings (same batch of nymphs) to get to adult first, all with the same care and food, you have to look for swollen wing buds to know for sure, well that my best way to know anyway?


----------



## sporeworld

Yup! Swollen wing buds, disinterest in food, and you can actually FEEL that they are... soggier. If you hold or move them, you can tell when the molt is close.


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## angelofdeathzz

I owe a thank you and and tip my hat to Mark, when I grow up I want to be just like him, lol.

Thanks Bud!


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## meaganelise9

It does, really.

Question: Do your idolos like butterflies and moths? I know they like flippity flappity things. Surely, they must get tired of flies for dinner every night.. I was thinking of raising some other flying fudz.


----------



## sporeworld

RE: The "Don't Feed Idolos Crickets" debate:

I had an adult female eat nothing but adult crickets for 30 days - the majority of which, she caught herself. She laid an ooth after (roughly) 28 days, which appears to be healthy... normal-sized and shaped for an Idolo ooth. If it hatches successfully, I'll update on this thread.


----------



## gripen

hey guys. i just noticed that there seems to be two strains of idolos in culture. one has a blue or black base to the thorax in the nymph phase while the other has a green base. has any one else noticed this?


----------



## happy1892

gripen said:


> hey guys. i just noticed that there seems to be two strains of idolos in culture. one has a blue or black base to the thorax in the nymph phase while the other has a green base. has any one else noticed this?


Are there any pictures of these?


----------



## gripen

Precarious said:


> I predict the difference you will notice is those fed exclusively on ground insects will soon die of starvation... unless you plan on hand-feeding them just about every meal. I can appreciate wanting to find the ideal conditions but I would scratch that variable off the list. They prefer flying insects over any other feeders without exception. I think everyone here would agree with that assessment.
> 
> I think what we're finding is they do relatively well in just about any conditions short of too dry, which is normal for any species. I raise mine without extra heat while others add heat, which only seems to increase their maturation rate. Their enclosure is the biggest factor as to whether or not you end up with adults. Pay the most attention to that and you will likely do fine. It would seem all the failures early on were due to falls from using the wrong surfaces to molt. Given the right surfaces the failure rate drops dramatically.
> 
> That being said, they are still not easy to breed. Getting adults is one thing. Producing viable ooths is another.
> 
> Hats off to Angelofdeathzz!
> 
> You should definitely get some. Really worth the effort. You will love them!
> 
> I mean... c'mon...


here is the blue version (precarious's)


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## gripen

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19882&amp;hl=&amp;fromsearch=1this is the green version from europe. (the gex files's) has anyone else noticed this?


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## angelofdeathzz

Yes, in fact there are 2 different strains right now or in recent times. One is a bit smaller with more purple and maybe greenish hue to it though not as hardy, in fact I know a few friends that have(had) them but they didn't last long, all died before pre-sub to poor overall health or genetics not sure which and these are but the people I speak of know how to care for them. The other strain are the ones I have going that are much larger(some 4.5-5 inches)like tanks and way more robust with some having a more flat color but 60-70% are very bright in hue/color but a little less purple going on overall.

Mine are from the Tanzania region the other smaller dead end sp I believe are from Kenya but don't quote me on that.

Keep in mind Henry has very good, and expensive photoshop type programs to enhance color or what ever he wants, not sure but both photo's may be from my stock with Precarious magic thrown in there. But he did have both stocks, one all died and mine all lived, maybe he'll shed some light on this?


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## gripen

oh ###### i have the greenish version from poland.


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## angelofdeathzz

gripen said:


> oh ###### i have the greenish version from poland.


None come from Poland Buddy, read my above statement...  

I should say "originate" from Poland, I have some L2-3's still if anybody wants to check them out? Just PM me...


----------



## gripen

yes i know mine are from frey and do not look like your stock. i remember a couple of years ago when idolos were getting popular there were to main stocks. i did not know if they were still around.


----------



## Precarious

gripen said:


> hey guys. i just noticed that there seems to be two strains of idolos in culture. one has a blue or black base to the thorax in the nymph phase while the other has a green base. has any one else noticed this?


There are members way more qualified to answer this question but these are my observations.

There is some slight variation between nymphs depending on conditions and natural variance.

For instance, this is an L3 nymphs I got from Nick that got his original stock from the same source I got mine originally, yet they turned out somewhat different in coloration. Take note that this nymph is nearly white with streaks of pink with black marks on the headpiece.







Coloration also varies with each molt and changes depending on how long after molt the photo was taken. There is a gradual change in shade from one molt to the next. The most noticeable, of course, is after the final molt.

This is an adult female days after final molt...






And this female had a lot more pink than others and held onto it pretty far into adulthood...











Whereas this female had a deeper purple than average...






You also have to consider the difference lighting and post processing makes in photography. Adjusting one slider can change the colors in an unnatural way if you're not careful.

However, there are 2 regional species in culture. One is smaller than the other with slightly different coloration. I always get mixed up as to which is from which area so I won't embarrass myself.

This is a male of the smaller of the two...






And this is the more commonly available, larger regional species...






As you can see the difference is very noticeable. The smaller species is much more delicate, has a lot more yellow and light green, redder eyes and light colored face. The bottom of the chest shield is purple versus the very dark bluish-green of the other.

I have never raised the smaller subspecies but received that adult male from a friend, so it could very well be you are spotting the differences between the regional species. But it could also just as easily be natural variation in the more common larger regional species. You'd really have to see those nymphs as adults to know for sure.


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## LLCoolJew

I didn't want to post here, and change the current topic/discussion, but I just added some info + photos under "Housing and Enclosures" about how to use weather stripping as a great way to secure sticks/branches for Idolos.

Carry on.


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## gripen

for the gripping surface at the top of the cage i use a hemp grid (1 inch grid) with birch twigs weaved into it. do you guys think hemp is a good gripping/moulting surface?


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## guapoalto049

Yes, this has been mentioned in a few posts before. The stock from Tanzania is typically larger (the ones you see in the 11-12 cm range) with less fantastic coloration, while the stocks from Kenya are smaller (9-10 cm) and have more vivid purples and greens.


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## angelofdeathzz

guapoalto049 said:


> Yes, this has been mentioned in a few posts before. The stock from Tanzania is typically larger (the ones you see in the 11-12 cm range) with less fantastic coloration, while the stocks from Kenya are smaller (9-10 cm) and have more vivid purples and greens.


Thanks for reinforcing what I thought to be true as well, do you keep any from Kenya?


----------



## Precarious

gripen said:


> for the gripping surface at the top of the cage i use a hemp grid (1 inch grid) with birch twigs weaved into it. do you guys think hemp is a good gripping/moulting surface?


I've been looking for some kind of grid made of natural fiber. Where do you get it? I've looked at hardware (carpet/tile department) and craft stores.



guapoalto049 said:


> Yes, this has been mentioned in a few posts before. The stock from Tanzania is typically larger (the ones you see in the 11-12 cm range) with less fantastic coloration, while the stocks from Kenya are smaller (9-10 cm) and have more vivid purples and greens.


It's funny because I've also heard the smaller species was more vivid but the specimen I had definitely wasn't. The colors were a little more faded. Just more yellow and lighter in general.

See for yourself...

*Kenyan*

Granted, much better lighting in the second video but you can still see the Tanzanian's colors are more vivid. The Kenyan was kind of drab which is why I didn't bother making a really well lit video documenting it. Maybe I just had a drab specimen.


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## gripen

i had to make the grid my self. i will try to get some pics.


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## guapoalto049

Could be a different stock from Kenya, or like you said an oddball. There are four stocks in culture from what I've heard, but I was referring to IGM 167 Musoma stock and 130 Kenya.

I know I have had some 'vibrance variants' in other species, such as the Rhombodera stalii. People often say they are a leafier green compared to the true R. basalis, and they almost always are, but I have had individuals with much more of a blue-green than others.

That's great you had an opportunity to work with two stocks, did you mix them at all?


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## Precarious

gripen said:


> i had to make the grid my self. i will try to get some pics.


So you rolled your own hemp. :huh: I see...



guapoalto049 said:


> That's great you had an opportunity to work with two stocks, did you mix them at all?


The Kenyan was sent to mate my Tanzanian females but he never showed any interest. Makes me wonder if they were even compatible. There is quite a bit of difference.


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## guapoalto049

Precarious said:


> The Kenyan was sent to mate my Tanzanian females but he never showed any interest. Makes me wonder if they were even compatible. There is quite a bit of difference.


Hmm are we seeing evolution at work?!


----------



## gripen

Precarious said:


> So you rolled your own hemp. :huh: I see...
> 
> The Kenyan was sent to mate my Tanzanian females but he never showed any interest. Makes me wonder if they were even compatible. There is quite a bit of difference.


haha no! i just made the grid part by weaving the hemp into a loose weave. this makes me think there are sub species of idolos. do you think that is possible?


----------



## frogparty

sub species can will and often do interbreed where ranges overlap. It could be that they are distinctly different yet closely related species, and the pheromone signals do not work between.

Since they are so similar in appearance, if they ARE distinct species then it is a fairly recent divergence evolutionarily speaking, most likely caused by some type of physical barrier between range overlap.


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## gripen

maybe so. where is christian when we need him?


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## Precarious

guapoalto049 said:


> Hmm are we seeing evolution at work?!


That's a whole other thread. :lol: 

I'm am _not_ a creationist but regional differences are a far cry from the process of metamorphosis developing randomly. Makes about as much sense to me as a god making them all in a day! The truth is usually somewhere in the middle. Seems to be an organized process driving evolution to me. Not 'God' per se, but maybe some type of morphogenic intelligence? OK, I'll shut up now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphogenetic_field


----------



## Precarious

gripen said:


> this makes me think there are sub species of idolos. do you think that is possible?





frogparty said:


> sub species can will and often do interbreed where ranges overlap. It could be that they are distinctly different yet closely related species, and the pheromone signals do not work between.
> 
> Since they are so similar in appearance, if they ARE distinct species then it is a fairly recent divergence evolutionarily speaking, most likely caused by some type of physical barrier between range overlap.


Yeah, apparently there are regional species. Not sure if they can interbreed. Asking the same question with these Rhombodra cf valida. We'll have to see if my buddy's female produced a viable ooth. Sometimes Rhombodera can look identical to the untrained eye but still be incompatible due to regional changes of the genitalia. Again, much more qualified people here to answer these questions so...


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## LLCoolJew

Idolo Mismolt: Good morning. Just woke up to one of my two L6 females on the ground of the terrarium after a mismolt that took one of her rear legs.  She's still alive (for how long, I don't know!)... But I'm wondering what I could have done to have achieved a more successful molt. You guys talk about grids and nets, and I wonder if I missed the memo on that one in my set up. Thanks! -LL


----------



## Precarious

LLCoolJew said:


> Idolo Mismolt: Good morning. Just woke up to one of my two L6 females on the ground of the terrarium after a mismolt that took one of her rear legs.  She's still alive (for how long, I don't know!)... But I'm wondering what I could have done to have achieved a more successful molt. You guys talk about grids and nets, and I wonder if I missed the memo on that one in my set up. Thanks! -LL


Sorry to hear that. Can we see a photo of your enclosure to better suggest how to improve it?


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## LLCoolJew

Yup! This is the one!


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## guapoalto049

I've found that metal screens are not a good surface for mantids to molt from, especially delicate ones. Something like Sporeworld suggested is good as a base, or do the entire roof of rough sticks.


----------



## Precarious

LLCoolJew said:


> Yup! This is the one!


Grrr... And that's the tank we were all excited to see.

Was her skin still attached or does it look like the skin dropped and her with it? I'm betting she molted from the screen and her feet came loose.

I cover all my screens with loose weave mesh from laundry bags. I then cover that with branches as flat to the mesh as possible to prevent the Idolo and flies wedging between the two. What works best for me it to take two thin flat wooden dowels cut to the width of the screen and glue sticks to it. I lay the screen on a flat surface with a piece of mesh cut to size, lay the dowels with twigs attacked over top, then attach the dowels by pushing short lengths of wire ties over them and through the screen and twisting on the outside. This works to keep both the twigs and mesh in place, flush with the screen.

If her skin is still attached she must have fallen when reaching for something as she got off the old skin. That's another problem with Idolo and why it's important to have things to grip at the level they will be while molting. They are heavy so the more they can grab onto the less chance the skin will break and drop them. Maybe consider some vines winding through the branches from top to bottom to each side where there is now only glass. I cover one wall with a grid of branches and vines and see late instar Idolo grab it all the time for extra support after a molt while still hanging from the skin.

It really is tough to make a good enclosure for Idolo. I've only ever had one drop but I'm usually there to help if they chose a bad spot.


----------



## LLCoolJew

Just modified tank by adding plastic grid along the glass, so hopefully that will give a better chance for the second L6. I'll let u know if it helps.


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## Precarious

LLCoolJew said:


> Do you have a pics of your set up that you could post a link to? This thread is a bit too tricky to dig through. Thanks again


I tried to get a photo but there are too many flies for me to open it to get a good view. Maybe I'll post a separate thread in the near future.



LLCoolJew said:


> Just modified tank by adding plastic grid along the glass, so hopefully that will give a better chance for the second L6. I'll let u know if it helps.


That may be all it takes to help them out, so long as they stay clear of the screen.


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## sporeworld

I've yet to find anything better for molting than the spongy carpet liner I've got on almost all my enclosures now. And, as much as I LOVE decorations, the less clutter (IMO) the better. With the liner on the top, they don't need assistance from other branches - they climb right up their own skin.

This is an older picture, but my last dozen adults all molted from a nearly empty tank. Only fake plant materials in the corners to help angle a climb.

To each his own, as they say, but this really, really works.


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## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> To each his own, as they say, but this really, really works.


I agree. Whatever works. My only real criticism of the enclosure in your photo is that it looks like the flies can get between the screen and your carpet liner, leading your Idolo to strike at the screen.


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## sporeworld

Yup! But I've decided that's a "featutre", not a "bug" (pun intended). They'd make feeble attempts (occassionally), but it's super-soft material, so no harm done. And I LIKE it when the flies get up in there and chill out. They're less annoying, and all I do is tap the cage, and they come whizzing out (and get snapped up).

With some of the cages, I glued it in place so tight that there were no gaps. But I moved away from that design, and stuck with the looser fitting mesh in the end. I used "ribs" on later designs - strips of tighter-woven material - to help get a better glue-grip on the screen.


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## gripen

i dont glue... i sew my grid to the top


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## sporeworld

gripen said:


> i dont glue... i sew my grid to the top


Yeah - that's a great approach. I'd prefer to do that (maybe with nylon fishing line). Just been too lazy. Even considered staples at one point.

Another option, depending on how your tank-top is designed, is to lay it down and close the screen lid on top of it to hold it in place. Mine isn't set up like that, but I've seen some that are.


----------



## angelofdeathzz

OMG!!! Came home from work to read this misfortune?

Sorry LL about the L6(Noooo!), I'll post what work's for me so you can look again, I'm not a genie in a bottle by any means but I do keep them with little to no death's from L1 to adult as a rule. Yes some will get eaten on a molt or a fall can happen once in a blue moon since I keep more than one in a tank BUT, they do need a level type molting surface, or one or more legs will not molt at the same time given the lower leg on a uneven surface could pop out much later and end up sticking or result in a fall trying to pull the leg out 20 minutes later. I know it sounds like a small detail but it's not in the long run?

There's also a sucky a thing called bad luck which haunts everyone from time to time? LOL

Pm me if you want to try and get you back in the saddle with this Beautiful species not that you did something wrong but I feel your pain.


----------



## lunarstorm

Grr. One of my sub-adults appears to suddenly be near-death. After a tough day at work, it was a double-whammy to come home and find her on the floor of the netcube. I'm not convinced I've done anything wrong, she started ignoring food a couple of days ago and I thought a molt was imminent so I raised humidity levels and temps a bit.

She has no injuries or physical symptoms that I can see except for being very, very weak and refusing to eat (no go on a mashed fly). I doubt she'll still be around in 24 hours but there's still hope, however slim.

It's especially tough to get *this* close to adulthood and not make it. Grr.


----------



## sporeworld

I don't think I've ever seen anything like that. Are you SURE she didn't molt, and THEN fell, and you just can't see the skin (I know, hard to miss)? Or is she really, really close to molting, and then just happened to fall?

Do you have something rigged on the top of the net cube? Subadult is going to have trouble molting from it, unless you've got an alternative gripping surface.


----------



## lunarstorm

I'm guessing she was really, really close to molting and just happened to fall. I didn't see any evidence of a molt (like you said, hard to miss) but it's possible. I didn't handle her for long - just enough to attempt a hand-feeding, water, and ensure that she still has enough strength to barely hang of her own accord.

Regarding the top of the cube, yeah I think it's a solid setup. The plastic side is the floor and a grid of sticks is secured to the ceiling. In addition to carefresh bedding and a paper towel at the base, I have several large soft and absorbant materials to aid with humidity (foam, sponges, etc.) It's not nearly as attractive as the gorgeous Sporeworld setups but I thought it has worked well thus far, mantids nor feeders have never been stuck in the sticks, I've had a 100% molt success rate (just two mantids), etc. etc.

If she doesn't make it, and/or any of my other mantids start mismolting, I'll take steps to up my humidity (humidifier) and go from there.

I didn't have super high expectations to get two adults from just two nymphs but my hopes surged when they both hit sub-adult awhile back.


----------



## sporeworld

Yeah - that sounds about right.

I've got no issues with the netcube - it has it's function. I ended up putting the majority of my adult Idolos in the really, really big ones (I think it's like 70"). Pretty much as you described.

It's hard to keep the humidity high enough with netcubes. In my experience, that critical 40% RH seems to be the number to beat. Under that, and I started seeing body parts get stuck - especially antenae, which, as I understand it, don't regrow with subsequent molts.


----------



## lunarstorm

Confirmed, mismolt.  She made progress before succumbing. I know it sometimes happens but this is my first/only mismolt in months, to have it happen on the final molt for a gorgeous idolo.... Bah.

Time to up the humidity to better ensure a constant 40-50+ RH.


----------



## angelofdeathzz

Sorry to hear that. I make sure I mist VERY heavily at night past L5-6 to get the humidity up before lights off due to the fact they almost always molt in the night or early morning, after a good misting the RH is over 90% and holds(I use only glass after L6) high over night with the light's off.

What their feet are digging into is very important during the last 2 molts, the more like cork/bark it is the better they can dig in. I've dealt with and gotten through about all Idolo's can dish out in having several different generation of them now, but I still lose one once in a while to a untimely death myself so I feel your pain..


----------



## lunarstorm

angelofdeathzz said:


> Sorry to hear that. I make sure I mist VERY heavily at night past L5-6 to get the humidity up before lights off due to the fact they almost always molt in the at night or early morning, after a good misting the RH is over 90% and holds high over night with the light's off.
> 
> What their feet are digging into is very important during the last 2 molts, the more like cork/bark it is the better they can dig in. I've dealt with and gotten through about all Idolo's can dish out in having several different generation of them now, but I still lose one once in a while to a untimely death myself so I feel your pain..


Thanks man, I appreciate that. One of these days I'll try to get a large batch of idolo nymphs and give a serious run at getting a viable ootheca. Your success is an inspiration!  

By just having two, I wanted to gain some experience and a better understanding of their needs before I dive into it. I'm sad to be down to just one but it's a learning experience; I just hope my last idolo gets her wings...


----------



## ShieldMantid1997

Is this odd, i'm testing conditions with one of my idolos, he is in a net cube, with sticks, but he only walks on the mesh for some reason, and he is being kept at 84 degrees, 30-40% RH, and has had NO health issues, is actually a little more active them my idols in the exoterra? He is L5/6.


----------



## Termite48

Mark: Are you saying that this carpet liner does away with the need for sticks. I am behind the 8 ball and was just getting ready for attempt number 2 with this gorgeous species of mantis and now I am finding a different approach to solve the delicate matter of molting in the later stages when adulthood is near. What exactly is a carpet liner. In my younger years I bought a lot of carpet and I never came across the term carpet liner. Is is something like a wrapping over carpet on the roll? Where does one get it?


----------



## patrickfraser

It's thin,airy, and spongy. It is used to keep things from sliding around on shelves and to keep rugs from slipping on hard wood or slick flooring. Here is a link to what it is. http://www.organizei...liner-taupe.asp

I picked some up at Big Lots.


----------



## sporeworld

Yeah - that's the stuff I use on the sides, but it doen't enough light in for viewing. So I went to Jo Ann's Fabric and got this instead (below), and it's all I use now.






Here's the tag (I took a picture of it when I was there).






Here's where it really comes in handy - this is the pose they take after "The Flip". If she has a bad front leg, you simply won't get pretty wings. The angle is that critical.






Here you can see the tighter, shelf-liner variety used on the sides (and to add background color). And the wider mesh for the top.






Here's the finished product in action.






And here's an entire setup.






And here's a close up of their little feet gripping in!


----------



## sporeworld

I don't think I posted this when it happened (bad phone quality). It's my staff watching some Idolos tear into a hawk moth. (Short video below). Caution - the girls swear a bit.


----------



## Colorcham427

Hey all,

I am going to get some of the green hoppers that this guy keeps telling me what the idolo eat out in Tanzania. Hopefully they will make it here.. lol


----------



## Colorcham427

*Sporeworld** - I would replace those vines with bio - vines or some sort of twigs with much more scratchy surfaces. Smooth surfaces aren't so good.*


----------



## sporeworld

Brian Aschenbach said:


> *Sporeworld** - I would replace those vines with bio - vines or some sort of twigs with much more scratchy surfaces. Smooth surfaces aren't so good.*


Yeah - by the 18th cage, I was stretching the limits of my vine inventory. The vine picture there is a long vine with nicks and bumps and lots of little branches and leaves. So it worked, but not my favorite. I had about 70 feet of BioVines at the peak of my Idolo army, plus all the sponge-walks. But it's all in bagged storage now.


----------



## sporeworld

Brian Aschenbach said:


> I am going to get some of the green hoppers that this guy keeps telling me what the idolo eat out in Tanzania. Hopefully they will make it here.. lol


That's interesting. Very few of mine would eat a Katydid, without great coaxing. Is your friend referring to the mature/flying stage of the hopper? I can see them going for them in mid-flight.


----------



## Chivalry

Whew. I started reading this thread when I got my single idolomantis a few weeks ago and finally finished, much wiser for the read! MANY thanks.

In the meantime Mal has molted once. Yen had L2 on him when I got him but one molt later there is no pink.... L3 or 4 now?

Also, I had an idea and I'm wondering what you experts think... What about a sushi mat for either lid lining or safety net?

He (I think hes a he) is currently in a cork lined deli cup but this week for my birthday I'm getting a Zoo Med 12 x 12 x 18 enclosure. Big enough for a mantis man cave/bachelor pad?

One more time. Thanks all for taking the fear out of keeping one of these guys for a noob like me. (and thanks of course to Yen for the adventure!)


----------



## Precarious

Chivalry said:


> Also, I had an idea and I'm wondering what you experts think... What about a sushi mat for either lid lining or safety net?


That would work great so long as the weave isn't too tight. I use a bamboo mat covering the back wall in one of mine. Similar idea. Just make sure it doesn't get too moist or they can grow mold.


----------



## gripen

well sorry for the double post but here goes nottin. my L2-L3s dont seem to care for BBs. whats up with that? they shouldnt devourer BBs at that stage right? my L5-L6s LOVE BBs like you would not imagine. they only eat the heads though...


----------



## angelofdeathzz

gripen said:


> a big plus 1! i have never ever had any falls while moulting with these guys using "nature sticksTM" as a gripping surface. getting stuck mid moult though is a big problem for me.


That usually means the RH was to low, when you see one that looks like its setting up to molt(legs stretched out long and chalky skin) make sure to mist the enclosure well at night before the lights go out as that's when 90% of them molt, but never mist them directly mid molt or they may freak and fall.


----------



## angelofdeathzz

gripen said:


> well sorry for the double post but here goes nottin. my L2-L3s dont seem to care for BBs. whats up with that? they shouldnt devourer BBs at that stage right? my L5-L6s LOVE BBs like you would not imagine. they only eat the heads though...


I feed L1-3 house flies and or FF's for 2 reasons, 1) they eat the whole thing so theres not to much mess/waste, 2) if they eat large prey(almost as big as them) they tend to think there cage mates are on the menu as well, not good if you keep them in groups.


----------



## gripen

yeah i need better humidity. i can get 65% right now but just last night i watched one mismoult. what is your view on the BB situation?


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## warpdrive

angelofdeathzz said:


> It's turning into a Idolo Nation around here, which is a good thing for everyone!
> 
> I've said before and I'll probably say it again "the sticks outside are free and are what they molt on in the wild"


well I have 2 Idolos that just molted to L4 this morning.

I personaly use dead or dying ficus branches. the sticks outside might be free, but my ficus branches are just as free and in my house.

I also love that when they dry out they are extra wrinkly and have lots of nooks and grooves in them.

I also like to add live plants to some of my cages and pothos and ficus are the two favorites. I get my small and large ficus trees from LLLReptile dot com. perfiect sizes for my chameleons and mantids.

Harry


----------



## sporeworld

+++++++++OMG++++++++++++

*HEADLINE: CRICKET-FED IDOLO PRODUCED *_*FERTILE *_*OOTH!!!!!!*

OH - maaaaaaaan!!! I just got back from a trip, sprayed my (slightly dry -20%rh) ooth and KA-POWIE!!! Out pops a beautiful baby Idolo!!!! Only one so far, but still... very exciting!

Just to be clear - this female ate _nothing_ but crickets for 2 months leading up to the laying of this ooth. AND it was her last ooth before passing. Ooth was kept at very low humidity (20-35% on average, with daily spikes to maybe 55%). High temps of about 100f, low to about 80f.

Of course, now I have to go hustle up fruit flies (sigh) but all in all - pretty good day!!!


----------



## gripen

turns out these guys are impossible to sex!! my 2 L5ish idolos turned out to be a perfect pair! i thought they were 2 females for ages! also the male is a dark burgundy. is that an unusual color because he is darker than any of the photos of idolos i have seen. to fallow up on that point i had a female who was a grey black color with green highlights which was totally amazing! i have never seen a color like that before.


----------



## gripen

the DOA female looked a bit like this http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9086&amp;hl=%2Bdark+%2Bidolomantis&amp;fromsearch=1

she was more grey than black though.


----------



## angelofdeathzz

Yes, but not burgandy? that would be a first for me.  

They can get darker if to cold same with some Gongy I've noticed, like the one in the link you posted.


----------



## Precarious

gripen said:


> turns out these guys are impossible to sex!! my 2 L5ish idolos turned out to be a perfect pair! i thought they were 2 females for ages! also the male is a dark burgundy. is that an unusual color because he is darker than any of the photos of idolos i have seen. to fallow up on that point i had a female who was a grey black color with green highlights which was totally amazing! i have never seen a color like that before.


I find them pretty impossible to accurately sex until around L5, and then only by the tiny extra abdominal fin on the underside of the last segment of males (Thanks to Yen for that clue). By L6 you can tell by the antennae.

Color variation is normal. Not completely common but I've had quite a few. I already posted the pale L3 with purple/pink stripes. I have one now that is an ashy white with green that I have to get pics of.

And here are 2 sisters from the first batch last year...


----------



## sporeworld

I had one very dark nymph - around l4. But the dark color went away with the next molt.


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## sporeworld

gripen said:


> Nice! i just bought an exo-terra thingy for mine. they love the big net cage but i can only get the humidity up to 70% so i have to get a REALLY expensive glass terrarium for them  picky little buggers...


You'd probably have to leave the net cage behind eventually - just for molting purposes. You could attach (glue or sew-in) a molting grid to the top of your net cage, to save a few bucks.


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## warpdrive

Chivalry said:


> I'd love to hear more info on how you're doing that rigging


that's easy. I rig it more or less how I do my chameleon cages if needed.

I hot glue, cut up plastic bags to the outside of the cage. then the inside is lined on the bottom with paper towel. the same for two sides of the inside of the cage. I use the plastic window of the cage as a window so that gives me 3 sides that help lock in the humidity. only the top, bottom and the door is open. but remember that the bottom is at least lined with paper towel and is above another cage also helping add humidity to the lower cage.

oh, and I woke up to 1 more good L4 nymph today. so that's just one more to go.

as someone who is freashly back into the hobbie, I'm convinced that my L4 that has the bad rear leg fell due to having some BB flys in the cage overnight. this is something that I normaly never do but forgot how important it is to not have food in the cage/tub at night when any mantids are molting. it could also be the reason I had a bad mismolt and couldn't help him, but that case looks like my room just had bad humidity levels for that one night and it just couldn't free both of it's claws.

Harry


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## sporeworld

A modification to add a molting surface (branches, BioVines, or other methods mentioned here) the top of a net cage can work, if you can keep the humidity up. But netcages is general, aren't as good for viewing or photography (IMO). But they ARE crazy-easy to clean.

You can see here that adults can move around and even mate easily enough in a netcage. But molting is still a challenge without a better-suited ceiling.

And I really don't think they are a difficult species. MORE difficult than the AVERAGE species, but not overly- complicated, once your system is in place. (But we've covered all that).

Good luck!


----------



## gripen

i would add though that you should not handle them before L5 because they are so fragile and dainty. i completely agree about what you said about idolos VS blephs VS gongys.


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## sporeworld

Obviously, I'm an Idolo fan. The claws are really more like venus fly traps than crushing spears. I've never had one grab me with them (ever). Just threat displays and jabs.

Gripen gives you good advice (thanks, Gripen) when he recommends not to handle them before L5 - or ever, really. But where's the fun in that...? ;-)

I'll give you RISKIER advice and say - go for it! Maybe go easy on the L1 and L2's, but have fun! My bug area is carpeted, so the few times they've jumped and made a run for it, they were fine.

I have a really thick rope that I string over my desk and let them crawl on it. Fun, fun, fun!


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## sporeworld

Here's a good idea of how big they get... L1 and Adult on a Tennis Ball, with a hand in the shot.


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## sporeworld

Yen just posted this thread with a GREAT guide to sexing Idolo nymphs. Check it out!

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=24368&amp;pid=189028&amp;st=0entry189028


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## warpdrive

update: today I a have a new L5 Idolo who molted two days after the first to reach L5. that makes two L4 to L5 Idolos in 10 days time. (shouldn't this be about 3 weeks before they molt to L5)

after speaking to Yen briefly, he says that it sould be because of over eating. so I'm posting how I feed.

I have 11 Idolos in a net cage. room temps max out at 85F, but are mostly lower.

I feed 8 to 10 BB flys each day.

this means that at least 1 or 2 Idolos miss a meal each day so none are ultra fat and some are thin but not starving.

does anyone here think that this is too much?

Harry


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## Precarious

warpdrive said:


> it would also be nice to have a reply from you my Precarious friend. :sailor:
> 
> Harry


I feed mine more than that. I try to feed at least one for each nymph, but sometimes twice that many depending on availability. I want mine to eat as much as they care to. That's the best way to avoid cannibalism. I can also skip a day hear and there if I need to. They don't seem to overeat at all. I stuffed my Idolos last time and they did well, but these don't want to eat as much. Mine are older than yours too so a BB is a bigger meal for yours.

Not sure on the timing between molts. I didn't pay that close attention this time around and I'm using different conditions than last time. But I've got 7 together and one is growing significantly faster than the others. It's at least one molt ahead of the others and they're from the same hatch.


----------



## warpdrive

Precarious said:


> I feed mine more than that. I try to feed at least one for each nymph, but sometimes twice that many depending on availability. I want mine to eat as much as they care to. That's the best way to avoid cannibalism. I can also skip a day hear and there if I need to. They don't seem to overeat at all. I stuffed my Idolos last time and they did well, but these don't want to eat as much. Mine are older than yours too so a BB is a bigger meal for yours.
> 
> Not sure on the timing between molts. I didn't pay that close attention this time around and I'm using different conditions than last time. But I've got 7 together and one is growing significantly faster than the others. It's at least one molt ahead of the others and they're from the same hatch.


the reason why I bring it up is that on the first page that lists the care sheet, it shows both yours and sporeworld's time table.

it lists them to molt from L4 to L5 as 20 days for you, and 17 days for Sporeworld. with my temps being 85F max, and down to only 75F just before my heat in my apartment turns back on, seems low or lower then what you and others have been doing. yet mine seem to cut the time to molt in half.

maybe I'm making too much out of nothing. I'm just amazed that my Idolos are now begining to molt to L5 and I feel that I'm in no way over feeding them and my temps are far from high.

I hope I'm not in any way sounding silly. I'm just wondering out loud to some of you guys in hopes that we all might learn something.

Harry


----------



## Precarious

warpdrive said:


> the reason why I bring it up is that on the first page that lists the care sheet, it shows both yours and sporeworld's time table.
> 
> it lists them to molt from L4 to L5 as 20 days for you, and 17 days for Sporeworld. with my temps being 85F max, and down to only 75F just before my heat in my apartment turns back on, seems low or lower then what you and others have been doing. yet mine seem to cut the time to molt in half.


Those times are from my first batch and I wasn't adding any extra heat. They do fine without it. 75 was about the average temp. I'm adding some this time just because they really seem to respond to it and my setup allows for it.

I would guess there are many variables - from genetics to humidity/temp to food - that have cumulative effect on molt times so there are no hard fast rules, but it would seem universal that higher temps speed metabolism and maturation rate. Not sure why yours would break that rule. But like I said, I have some kept under identical conditions with one taking a distinct lead in development. Maybe you've got some genetic advantage going.


----------



## sporeworld

Not sure about the odd time table. But food wise, I've never seen any problem with over eatting, other than the flies becoming a hazzard when the Idolos are full. Eventually, I either let the exttra flies go, extract them from the enclosure, or (and this is just me) add smaller (or bigger) fly-eatting mantids to eat off the extras (don't try this at home, kiddies). (old pic)


----------



## Chivalry

Couple of noob questions and thoughts.

My first one is still solo at L4 (I think will molt to 5 soon), and the trio I got later are just molting to L4. Are they likely to do okay together? I currently have the trio in the ZooMed and the first one is and has been separated; I'd really like to move him in with the gang.

Still having a heck of a time keeping humidity up in the ZooMed. Going to try a moisture retaining substrate next, or maybe a live plant.

I had problems with them falling for no obvious reason. I think that their feet were getting through the material I covered the metal screen with, so I've since replaced that with something more dense, plus branches (they insist on hanging between the branches from the ceiling). The one that was the worst has molted without a problem and seems fine now, so fingers crossed that we're past that issue.

Metal screen = EVIL. I don't think that can be emphasized enough.


----------



## Precarious

Chivalry said:


> Couple of noob questions and thoughts.
> 
> My first one is still solo at L4 (I think will molt to 5 soon), and the trio I got later are just molting to L4. Are they likely to do okay together? I currently have the trio in the ZooMed and the first one is and has been separated; I'd really like to move him in with the gang.
> 
> Still having a heck of a time keeping humidity up in the ZooMed. Going to try a moisture retaining substrate next, or maybe a live plant.
> 
> I had problems with them falling for no obvious reason. I think that their feet were getting through the material I covered the metal screen with, so I've since replaced that with something more dense, plus branches (they insist on hanging between the branches from the ceiling). The one that was the worst has molted without a problem and seems fine now, so fingers crossed that we're past that issue.
> 
> Metal screen = EVIL. I don't think that can be emphasized enough.


Yeah, you got that right. No metal screens.

It's iffy putting different instars together. No guarantee that won't lead to cannibalism. Be smart about it. Too much difference in size can be especially bad. You can give it a shot if you're willing to risk it. Just make sure there is always food available.

I don't suggest moist substrate unless you keep it in a shallow dish within the Zoo-Med. That way the moisture is contained and won't cause mold elsewhere in the tank, plus it's much easier to remove and clean. I use the shallow containers Chinese food comes in. I fill them with wet moss. Works well, but there is no substitute for misting the tank a couple times a day. Potted plant will help but so will increasing surface area and misting regularly. Fake leafy vines hold a lot of spray that takes time to evaporate. Also is good climbing surface for the nymphs.


----------



## warpdrive

Nick, you should have seen the uproar when they heard from me that many of you guys were going to use glass (exoterras and fish tanks). they thought you guys were crazy. just couldn't be done were the thoughts that were kind and nice.

on behalf of all the newbies, a BIG thank you for all of your hard work.

Harry


----------



## Gill

warpdrive said:


> Nick, you should have seen the uproar when they heard from me that many of you guys were going to use glass (exoterras and fish tanks). they thought you guys were crazy. just couldn't be done were the thoughts that were kind and nice.
> 
> on behalf of all the newbies, a BIG thank you for all of your hard work.
> 
> Harry


Is this the thread? http://www.ukmantisf...59894#post59894

It's just that our caresheet says aquariums are recommended and only one member critised the cage (though not for being glass.

I am on the ukforum staff. The thread I linked was May 2011, a year ago. Idolos were bred in the US before the UK (as it says in our care sheet) .

And whoever said



> as it seems some (well many) overseas didn't think we had what it takes to get anything but budwings and creos bred,


 has not kept an eye on who is breeding what.


----------



## Precarious

Gill said:


> Is this the thread? http://www.ukmantisf...59894#post59894
> 
> It's just that our caresheet says aquariums are recommended and only one member critised the cage (though not for being glass.


It's all cool with me. I don't think anyone should be hurt on either end. I was going against the grain of what had been proven to work so I caught resistance from US keepers too. It was an experiment and others decided to join in and also try glass. But, hey, whatever works. Personally I ended up having all females in my tiny colony so didn't get much chance to breed but others who had larger numbers were able to make it happen. I think the final outcome is there is more than one method that works, but both require a large community of Idolo. I want to find a way to make it happen using smaller numbers. Probably a lost cause but I'll keep dreaming. The established methods were geared toward a large colony and since I was working with much smaller numbers I did what worked best for me and my video camera.

That being said, there was quite a bit a disinformation out there on Idolo care when I first got my nymphs(such as suggestions of low humidity) and luckily I was able to see through it. I'm not sure if that was purposeful, in order to keep others from finding success, or just poor research on the part of others. Either way, it is very difficult if not impossible to maintain the humidity levels Idolo require in a net cage. What's more, their legs get stuck, they lose the tips of their craws and even whole feet if the weave is too tight. No one can dispute those two points. So to me it appeared the net enclosure suggestions fell into the realm of disinfo. Maybe others can dedicate a whole room to be kept at very high humidity. I can't.

So again, it didn't mean anything to me for anyone to criticize my setup. To each their own. What does have meaning to me is that it worked. I got adults - all females, but still adults.


----------



## angelofdeathzz

Just a quick update, from the 11 ooths I hatched out(from my females)there were 350-375 nymphs and I kept about 50 L1's for re-breeding, I now have about 45 left from L4 to adult. One 3.5 week female adult and two adult males one is 3 weeks and one molted to adult last night, all molted perfectly with no issues, so I'll have to see if I can get a few more with such a good/lucky ratio 3 for 3(100%) no mismolts on the final molt yet.

I only kept so many(50) as I expected more deaths along the way which aren't happening, well yet anyway, only 2 mismolts and 3 random drop deads so far.

So that puts some 300+ Idolos out there among many forum members I sent out to, some good friends some I never hear from except for a few questions/tips which I very much love to answer and help with, but I would be very interested to hear how other people are doing with their Idolo, be it from Yen or myself?


----------



## Psychobunny

I see lots of people keeping idolo communally in large cages!!??

Is it safe to do that? If so, that would be ideal for me instead of keeping them

seperate, which takes up too much space.

Is it okay to have L4's together with L6 and higher?

What about mixing the sexes together??

I have a Exo Terra 18 X 18 X 18 that I would love to put ALL my idolo in


----------



## Precarious

Psychobunny said:


> I see lots of people keeping idolo communally in large cages!!??
> 
> Is it safe to do that? If so, that would be ideal for me instead of keeping them
> 
> seperate, which takes up too much space.
> 
> Is it okay to have L4's together with L6 and higher?
> 
> What about mixing the sexes together??
> 
> I have a Exo Terra 18 X 18 X 18 that I would love to put ALL my idolo in


As far as I'm concerned, it's the only way to raise them. They really require a lot of space, especially at later instars. Cups will no cut it. Adults need to hang at an angle after final molt or wings will be imperfect and they prefer to do this by dropping to a branch lower than where they molted. Can't do that in any kind of cup.

It's risky to mix instars separated by more than one molt of any species. You may get away with it if you feed really well but there is always a risk. No problem mixing sexes.

Just make sure you cover the screen on any cage you use and follow all the other guidelines.


----------



## sporeworld

Yup! What he said.

I'm all about the communal living, and am very willing to accept losses, if they occur (although, of course, I'd prefer to prevent them). I've heard a few report recently of "friendly fire" incidents, but that was not my experience with very, very large numbers and plenty of food.

Repeating ad nauseum, it's 1-2-3:

1. get the molting surface right

2. keep the humidity above the 40% rh threshold

3. LOTS of flying, fluttering food


----------



## Psychobunny

Do you buy the ZooMed vines or some other brand?


----------



## Precarious

Psychobunny said:


> Do you buy the ZooMed vines or some other brand?


I buy a coil of vines at A.C.Moore for about $7 that is good for _many_ enclosures. Cut it to length and shape appropriately. They grip the leaves more than the plastic stem. I use it in all my enclosures and many deli cups. Use safety pins to secure to the sides of net cages.


----------



## Precarious

warpdrive said:


> I agree. Only ghosts are as communal. I've had zero cannibalism in small net cages and exoterras.
> 
> Yet even with great humidity I've had my fourth mismolt yesterday. Today, I got my first good L6 with poorer humidity then yesterday.





xxFaultxx said:


> But Ive been keeping my Idolos with some high humidity...about 70% ...I spray the exo terra about 3-4 times to keep the substrate moist...No mis-molts yet ( crosses fingers ) ...and for my sub female...I want to make sure she has plenty of humidity so that she doesnt mis-molt...But 7 Idolos...no mis-molts yet...I hope to beat the 50%-ish adulthood for Idolos
> 
> Not to go off topic a little but ive never had any ghost cannibalism untill my new set of nymphs I got which are now L4, but one female ate 3 ghosts in 1 day!!!!!!! right after eating 3 house flies as an L3!! I was slighty mad LoL


I think some overlook the importance of giving them a chance to drink on a regular basis. Humidity could be 100% but if they are lacking fluid in their body they will still mismolt. On the other hand if they get to drink regularly they have much better tolerance for drops in humidity.

I mist mine directly every day, sometimes twice. I can honestly tell you that I have NEVER had a bad molt relating to moisture. The only bad molts I've had were the mantis choosing to molt from a low perch or falling for one reason or another. You will see some L2-L3 get stuck in skin no matter the humidity level. That's more to do with nature weeding out individual weakness.

Also, Ghosts are relatively communal but once females reach pre-sub they should be separated. You rarely see cannibalism before that. Same goes for Unicorns and Oxyopsis gracilis. And you really have to keep up on feeding with any communal group. That girl must have been very hungry to fit 3 siblings and 3 house flies in her belly. I know it's tough to gauge how much they can handle so always feed extra just to be safe. Personally after a molt I feed mine until they stop eating. That way you can see how their abdomen looks at full extension and feed smaller maintenance meals from that point on.


----------



## angelofdeathzz

If I don't mist at least once a day to drink(sometimes 2-3) I expect fail with these, they always are drinking the water from their raptors daily when misted, day after day. It's as important as high RH...


----------



## sporeworld

Yeah, mine always cleaned themselves after being sprays, but I was never sure how much really got ingested. I suspect properly feeding/watering the flies (or whatever prey) was even more important. I always "felt good" when they'd eat a juicy moth or katydid in addition to the flies. Soooo not scientific, but SEEMED better.


----------



## sporeworld

I think I had something like ten or more L4's (or around there) is my enclosure (below). Pay no attention to that numbers on the tape.







After that, I'd try to keep it to about 5 or 6. By adult, maybe less. You can see, they take up a lot of room, but are very tolerant of each other - maybe even a little gregarious. 






Eventually, once they were adult, and there was no more risk of molting disasters, I let them roam around in those _ginormous_ Net Castle things. Clearly (pun intended) not as good for viewing... but more practical. And, I thought, more bug-friendly. They really seemed to "enjoy" the space.


----------



## Psychobunny

Okay guys, taking all your advise to heart, I started my mods with my 12 X 12 X 12 Exo.

Here are a few pics, not very good ones, but just to give U an idea and maybe you can give me your

comments.

As my population grows, I will mod my largest 18 X 18 X 23 Exo.

They are moving around with very well on all surfaces:


----------



## Precarious

Psychobunny said:


> Okay guys, taking all your advise to heart, I started my mods with my 12 X 12 X 12 Exo.
> 
> Here are a few pics, not very good ones, but just to give U an idea and maybe you can give me your
> 
> comments.


I would have went with much thinner branches. They do best on branches they can wrap their feet around. Not sure how they will do with these for later molts. You may also get frustrated that the flies get above the top branches.


----------



## Psychobunny

U mean those fat sticks on the lower level?

I can easily replace them with smaller ones, or eliminate completly if U think it's not needed.


----------



## gripen

Psychobunny said:


> U mean those fat sticks on the lower level?
> 
> I can easily replace them with smaller ones, or eliminate completly if U think it's not needed.


The twigs on the top of the cage are too big. They will have trouble moulting from them.


----------



## sporeworld

Psychobunny said:


> Cool, what model of terrarium is that? I love the slidding front doors!!


They are custom built for a pet shop down the road from me. A stock item, now. They run about $80 new. And, yeah - the sliding (and removable) doors are awesome! To do it over again, I'd put a false bottom, and maybe a wide gauge screen on the bottom as well. My metal cages have that, and it so much easier to keep clean without major disturbances.


----------



## sporeworld

Precarious said:


> I would have went with much thinner branches. They do best on branches they can wrap their feet around. Not sure how they will do with these for later molts. You may also get frustrated that the flies get above the top branches.


+1. Except for the fly part. I actually began to appreciate the flies clustering at the top. They were less annoying to the mantids, and when I sprayed the top, they all fluttered away to their imminent demise. 

And, as long as you have reasonably soft substrate, you can probably ditch all but the top branches. They can climb the walls if they need to get back up.


----------



## agent A

hey, are these enough sticks for the lid of my future idolo's cage?

this is the lid with sticks glued to it


----------



## Precarious

agent A said:


> hey, are these enough sticks for the lid of my future idolo's cage?
> 
> this is the lid with sticks glued to it


They aren't chimpanzees! :huh: You see the size of their little feet?

All you need is a row of thin branches. That's it. A pile like this will just give the flies places to hide and the Idolo will try to squeeze into the spaces.

Some photos of what I build last year in the links below. I do things a little differently now but should give you an idea of what you need.

*New Idolo Tank*

*Terrarium with lots of twigs*

*Enclosures and Housing: The Basics*


----------



## angelofdeathzz

> They aren't chimpanzees! :huh: You see the size of their little feet?


Lol, chimpanzees, that was funny!  

They need straw sized or smaller like this(below) with room to still grab flies, but not to much room or they will molt from the screen. Some will molt lower if you give them vertical branches, so others don't mess with them mid-molt, the smart ones do go down lower to molt, but you can't set it up where they molt to close to the bottom they need 6-8 inch clearence on that.


----------



## sporeworld

I used the thin BioVines on an earlier version. I also bought, but put into use, a can of PlastiDip, The idea was to use coat hangers made into a perfect shape, then dip/spray them with the rubbery material. Then I realized I could just use any grill like structure I could find to the same effect. And then I realized I was just making the equivalent of Carpet Liner, so I just started using that.


----------



## Precarious

agent A said:


> would raffia straw work?


Yes, but it tends to rot and/or grow mold in a high humidity environment.


----------



## sporeworld

Precarious said:


> Yes, but it tends to rot and/or grow mold in a high humidity environment.


Again, +1

All my stuff is non-organic. Mold/Mildew can still be an issue, but is easily removed. You next investment should be in a quality nozzle for your garden hose... Makes cleaning a lot easier.


----------



## Precarious

agent A said:


> would raffia straw work?


You want to create an environment that encourages this...






The past 3 nights one of the 6 Idolo in that cage has dropped down to the vine to molt.






All I did was cut the fake vine, bend the ends and attached one side using a large safety pin through the side of the net cage. The ceiling has twigs glued to two wooden dowels, also attached with safety pins. Very simple and effective. I don't suggest using a net cage unless you will be around to mist frequently. I also run a humidifier at night that brings the room up to about 50%.

The nymphs will be moved to a glass Exo-Terra for next molt.


----------



## sporeworld

That's probably the most economical way I can imagine right now to approach an Idolo enclosure (kudos).

You could probably even sit it in a tin pan with about 1/8" of water, for goodness sake! For that matter, use the whole net cage as the lid for your heated aquarium.

And because I'm still pushing people to try the carpet liner, I'd say you can probably just SEW it right into the net fabric.

The only thing I'd suggest, is to make sure any fake plants have enough texture for gripping - the waxy kind are a wee bit riskier.

And, remember, as someone (Peter?) showed in another thread, you can HANG netcubes - freeing up a lot of space.


----------



## Psychobunny

gripen said:


> The twigs on the top of the cage are too big. They will have trouble moulting from them.


Oh noooooo!!!! U guys dont like my lid sticks  

Okay, I will wank them all off and do it over again!! &lt;_&lt; 

They LOVE the foam carpet liner and I cant get them off of the side walls!!

I even have a lamp on top to attract them to the top.

Why cant I just use it on the ceiling too and forget glueing more sticks?

I can just have thinner branches inside for them to climb on!?


----------



## Precarious

Psychobunny said:


> They LOVE the foam carpet liner and I cant get them off of the side walls!!
> 
> I even have a lamp on top to attract them to the top.
> 
> Why cant I just use it on the ceiling too and forget glueing more sticks?


We like the sticks. The Idolo will not when it comes time to molt. At that thickness they amount to a textured surface rather than something they can wrap around. They are most secure when they use the whole foot as a hook. Sames goes for Violins.

If you use carpet liner for the top just be aware that if, after final molt, their foot goes through the spaces and grips the metal screen all the hooks will be torn from that foot. This applies to any material you use with spaces exposing the screen. And it only matters for that brief moment after final molt while the hooks are still soft. I know this because I have seen this happen with Heterochaeta sp., another large species with similar gripping needs, and it was heartbreaking to watch a perfect molt end with all the hooks being torn from his feet when he stepped off the old skin and onto the screen. They can't grip anything after that. They drop and that's the end of the story.


----------



## Psychobunny

Okay, I did some mods on my 18 X 18'' Exo.

I have the carpet linner on the lid plus some sticks over top of that without overdoing it:

The lamp is one of those curly-Q fluorescent 40W (incan equivalent) and does not get hot,

just slightly warm.

It also accounts for the yellow color in the pics.

Let me know what U think of it.

We do go through a lot of our little friends, dont we!? LOL

My brother thinks I'm ready for the mental hospital!!


----------



## Precarious

Psychobunny said:


> Okay, I did some mods on my 18 X 18'' Exo.
> 
> I have the carpet linner on the lid plus some sticks over top of that without overdoing it:
> 
> The lamp is one of those curly-Q fluorescent 40W (incan equivalent) and does not get hot,
> 
> just slightly warm.
> 
> It also accounts for the yellow color in the pics.
> 
> Let me know what U think of it.
> 
> We do go through a lot of our little friends, dont we!? LOL
> 
> My brother thinks I'm ready for the mental hospital!!


P.E.R.F.E.C.T.!

Just add some moss to the bottom to break falls and hold humidity. I use wet moss in a shallow dish and fill the rest of the bottom with dry moss. That way the water is contained within the dish. This helps prevent mold growing in the tank. If it does it is only in the dish which is easy to remove and clean.


----------



## Psychobunny

Precarious said:


> P.E.R.F.E.C.T.!
> 
> Just add some moss to the bottom to break falls and hold humidity. I use wet moss in a shallow dish and fill the rest of the bottom with dry moss. That way the water is contained within the dish. This helps prevent mold growing in the tank. If it does it is only in the dish which is easy to remove and clean.


Will do, I have a whole big bag of nice sphagnum moss and a square baking dish.

Question; when you water them for a drink, do you mist directly on them or do you spray the mist over the top?


----------



## Bryce08

Psychobunny said:


> Will do, I have a whole big bag of nice sphagnum moss and a square baking dish.
> 
> Question; when you water them for a drink, do you mist directly on them or do you spray the mist over the top?


Yeah add moss, you will be 100%

I spray them directly, then spray the moss at the bottom a couple times....that way they get a drink and the cage stays humid, spraying from the top sometimes makes them try to drink it through whatever you have at the top...wire, mesh, liner, etc...


----------



## Precarious

Psychobunny said:


> Question; when you water them for a drink, do you mist directly on them or do you spray the mist over the top?


I mist them directly, and/or from above so droplets form on a branches.



Psychobunny said:


> RATS!! cant find anything to put the moss in! will put down some paper towels until I can get to the grocery
> 
> store tomorrow and get some of those disposible aluminum cooking trays.


I use the plastic containers Chinese food generally comes in.


----------



## Precarious

*Everyone that uses foam carpet liners:*

Please report how they worked for you and if there were any health unusual issues. My concern with using them is that they may give off fumes.

Theoretically, a fully reacted polyurethane polymer should be chemically inert. But any chemist will tell you that even fully reacted polyurethane produces dust that can cause mechanical irritation to the eyes and lungs in humans. This is mainly a concern for materials that we are in contact with for extended periods, such as foam mattresses. It is also known that some foam insulation materials give off formaldehyde fumes as the materials decay.

It is for these reasons I have not jumped on board. It looks very convenient and effective. My only concern is the composition of the materials used to make it. I worry about unknown effects from being literally surrounded by it in an enclosed space through a mantid lifetime, as well as drinking water from it. I suppose the same could be said for plastics to some extent due to their petrochemical origins and potential release of Bisphenol A (BPA), but this is mainly a concern when heat is applied or BPA is leached into liquids in contact for extended periods.

The non-slip liners I've seen on line are made from 'polyester 4'. Tufts Medical University found that cancer cells grow more rapidly in polyester test tubes than glass tubes. It is believed that this is because polyester emits phytoestrogens, which are potentially dangerous to the endocrine system as synthetic estrogens, i.e. endocrine disrupters, known to cause cancerous tumors, birth defects, and other developmental disorders.

*I'm not trying to scare anyone away from it.* I'm hoping we can prove this isn't a concern. I know Sporeworld used it extensively last generation but he was dealing with an army of Idolo. Potential effects would be easier to track by those with a smaller population. If you have a small group being raised in an enclosure including a fair amount of this material I'd be interested to know what percentage make it to adult and how many died due to health problems vs. trauma such as falls during molt.


----------



## Psychobunny

Henry,

I was concerned about that too.

When I bought a pack, it did have a "new plastic" smell.

I put it in the washing machine and washed it in warm water, then hung it up outside in the sun and wind to dry.

After dry, I could not detect the slightest odor.

So, I decided to ball some of it up, stuff it into a cup, and put cold water on it.

I let it soak for about an hour and I drank the water!!

No off flavor at all.

Of course, my brand may be different from others, but I suggest doing what I did before U use it.

If, after washing, you still get a off oder, let it hang outside longer or re-wash it.

This is the brand I am using:

http://www.amazon.co...s00_i00_details

If concerned, you can put some in a container with a bunch of crickets and wait a few weeks to monitor any ill effects.

Some plastics can leech BPA, which is partialy soluble in water (very soluble in alcohol) and is know to be toxic.


----------



## Bryce08

Psychobunny said:


> Henry,
> 
> I was concerned about that too.
> 
> When I bought a pack, it did have a "new plastic" smell.
> 
> So, I decided to ball some of it up, stuff it into a cup, and put cold water on it.
> 
> I let it soak for about an hour and I drank the water!!


Your dedicated!!! HaHa...Ive used it for a while before using in the exo terras, I use it as well in all the deli cups...Henry does make a very valid point though, would be nice if we could counter out any problems with it, so we know its 100%


----------



## Precarious

Psychobunny said:


> Henry,
> 
> I was concerned about that too.
> 
> When I bought a pack, it did have a "new plastic" smell.
> 
> I put it in the washing machine and washed it in warm water, then hung it up outside in the sun and wind to dry.
> 
> After dry, I could not detect the slightest odor.
> 
> So, I decided to ball some of it up, stuff it into a cup, and put cold water on it.
> 
> I let it soak for about an hour and I drank the water!!


That's good. Part of the problem is synthetics seldom purge all the chemicals used in their production which are not a bonded part of the material. That's usually the source of the nasty fumes. Rinsing and airing is the smart thing to do. I hope everyone is doing that.

We should still try to keep track of any long term effects, if any, due to breakdown of the material.

I was looking for a coarse woven material formed into a grid. Couldn't find anything aside from burlap, which comes apart once the seams are cut, and the grids people use for knitting, which I haven't tried. Would be much easier to buy carpet liners.


----------



## Psychobunny

xxFaultxx said:


> Your dedicated!!! HaHa...Ive used it for a while before using in the exo terras, I use it as well in all the deli cups...Henry does make a very valid point though, would be nice if we could counter out any problems with it, so we know its 100%


LOL!! before changing my career path, I was an analytical chemist for a packaged food trade association.

Back then, BPA was a major consummer scare.

I analyzed food products which had been packaged in various containers using different plastics, we also "mimiced" the canning process by using alcohol solutions.

We used a HPLC method for the analysis and found BPA to be below the quantatation limit in all cases. It largly turned out to be media hype, but the consummer still

believes it.

The biggest concern they had was infant formulas and baby bottles made of plastic. The concern was unwarrented, but the media continued to scare the ###### out

of them!!

Besides BPA, there are other compounds in plastics, but they are not water soluble.

So, bottom line is, if water is the only solvent you intend to use, just soak the material in hot water!! that will leech out any residual that may be in it.

It's not a big worry, plastic is everywhere and in nearly everything. Even canned foods have a plastic coating on the tinplate.


----------



## Precarious

Psychobunny said:


> LOL!! before changing my career path, I was an analytical chemist for a packaged food trade association.
> 
> Back then, BPA was a major consummer scare.
> 
> I analyzed food products which had been packaged in various containers using different plastics, we also "mimiced" the canning process by using alcohol solutions.
> 
> We used a HPLC method for the analysis and found BPA to be below the quantatation limit in all cases. It largly turned out to be media hype, but the consummer still
> 
> believes it.
> 
> The biggest concern they had was infant formulas and baby bottles made of plastic. The concern was unwarrented, but the media continued to scare the ###### out
> 
> of them!!


Well good to know you have a working knowledge on the subject! I would have to disagree about BPA not being an issue simply because individual products don't contain over the accepted amounts. The problem is when it's coming at you from all angles there is a cumulative effect. In this modern world everyone is carrying BPA in their system at all times. It's in urine, it's in the water. There have been documented cases of just the excreted portions feminizing male fish, etc. I don't want to get too far off the topic of this thread, but BPA is banned in many nations, Canada for instance, and is currently being considered for ban in the US. I see the FDA rejected the ban just in the last 24 hours but I doubt that means it will be legal much longer. Consumers will demand protections the FDA continually fails to provide.

The bottom line is any synthetic estrogen hormone (BPA and pesticides included) work against maintaining a balanced endocrine system and are best avoided if at all possible.

End rant...


----------



## angelofdeathzz

First off that stuff is throw rug anti-skid material so area rugs don't move around as they have no jute backing, it's not carpet liner(backing) like you would find on the back of your carpet if you peeled it back in your living room, the jute backing on carpet is more like thin rope made of mostly if not all "natural" materials then bonded into a mesh using latex, and heat applies it to the back of the carpet roll so later it can be stretched in(installed) using tack strip that holds it in place. If you could find the netting(backing) for the back of actual carpet it would be much healthier, it would be made of a hemp like material, not toxic man made stuff like the "carpet liner".

How do I know, I own a flooring company, lol.

If it's what you choose then more power to ya, but you don't need all the sides coated with anything? A few sticks or vines going from top to bottom is all they need. You don't want them to molt vertically do you? I've had a few smaller instars molt from the sides of my net cages and it cost some of them bent legs, missing legs, and deformity in general. A larger instar would be a hot mess if it molted from the side, and their not all that smart about molting to begin with sometimes. :no: 

I will just stick to my natural branches and fake vines/leaves in glass enclosures, did I mention sticks are free and all they use in the wild? like they say "if it isn't broke don't fix it!" my set-ups have worked very well for many generations of Idolo with no mysterious rot in adulthood that I've seen first hand from others that use less natural cages, we're still not sure what caused it though to be honest, but in the end to each his own I guess, good luck to all you carpet anti-skiders out there...


----------



## sporeworld

Good points, all around.

Some notes: I suggest some kind of liner on as many surfaces as possible with Idolos - simply because I experienced more incidents of misformed legs (from trying in vain to grasp the glass with still-forming legs) than from side-molting. Once I had the lining on the tops, I had zero out of hundreds even attempt a side molt. I think the prevention of over-crowding is far more important to their molting success than eliminating side-molt opportunities.

I've NO idea about the health effects of this material. Do we even know if cancer is a concern with mantids? Or Idolos? Or are they apparently immune like sharks are alleged to be?

I love the enclosure you posted - really top notch. For the bottom, you can use moss, or any one of many "litter" or bedding products available at stores, fairly cheaply.

If I ever mention "misting" in my posts, I almost always should have said "drenching". As Phil pointed out in several threads, a few spritzes are just not sufficient do do more than just let them drink. I drench the ###### out of everything in the enclosure - it's more than a day before it's dry again - even in LA.

Concerning heat and the ceiling - yeah - what they said. Much warmer at the ceiling. Lighting can be an issue, since they'll want light above them. To this, you could aim your light at the wall or ceiling, and see if the bounce light will do the trick. Heat from the lights will rise anyway, so win/win.

And bunny - for being such a good sport about all this - send me a PM and I'll send you one of my old Taylor Thermometer / Hydrometers. They're really great and will keep you from guessing if you've got them in the right place.

And, I LOVE to innovate. When it's all figured out, I get bored and move on. I'm still looking for better alternatives to the carpet liners, the substrate, heating, timers, misters, enclosures, and so on. Just less pressure since I'm mantis free at the moment. So, hopefully that confession will keep people from thinking I'm attacking THEIR ideas - I'm just attempting to improve on THE idea. As such, I'm prone to lots of failures, embarrassments and apologies. But I'll get it right eventually...


----------



## agent A

just wondering, will an infrared bulb be ok for these guys? my belph lamp has no room for my idolo cage but under the infrared roach lamp it's a toasy 85 degrees


----------



## angelofdeathzz

I believe I speak for Henry as well as myself when I say we're not attacking the liner Idea, just wondering the outcome of using it? I can see some of the advantages of it's overall shape and pattern plus ease of use seems irresistible for sure, and if you don't put in enough vertical sticks then something on the sides is needed, but all mine molt on the branches never to move from there till the molt is complete.

When in the last part of the molt and just their butt is in the old skin they reach their legs straight up to grab some wood and stay there till dry and hardened, never seeing the bottom to have to try and get back up? The top sticks are just half the idea, many up and down with side branches(like in my pics) are also needed in this method so they can hang upside down till dry and not climb on any sides which may bend legs or mis-form wings.

The last thing I wanted was to offend anyone, so all apologies if I did? There are so many options that can be used, I just prefer the most mother naturally way I can create is all, nothing more or less.

I think I've made my point and won't comment anymore on on things that puzzle me, after all there's more than one way to skin a cat as they say.  

So just ignore my partial ignorance and carry on, in truth if I didn't use my natural way for so long I may also jump on the liner Idea. :surrender:


----------



## angelofdeathzz

agent A said:


> just wondering, will an infrared bulb be ok for these guys? my belph lamp has no room for my idolo cage but under the infrared roach lamp it's a toasy 85 degrees


I used infrared mid winter when I was not thrilled with night time temps going below 68 with no issues.


----------



## guapoalto049

I think the only problem with the white rug mesh could be if it is heated very high, same as plastics. Personally I use the stuff to cover any metal in the cage, then use a stick roof on top of that.

Without question the best way for an Idolo or any other species to molt is from a *slanted *surface. I've mentioned this multiple times, and it makes sense when you think about it. The biggest problem once mantids are out of the skin is having a place to grip. The exuvia is old, brittle, and weak. If this is all a mantid has to grip after a molt, it will most likely fall. Hence, large+heavy Idolomantis will fall often on the last molt. Young instars are relatively light for the length of the legs, which is why most of the mismolts at low instars are attributed to humidity/getting stuck.

Nature is never a geometric cube...you rarely see a large flat horizontal surface hovering over the ground with nothing else around it. In essence, this is what a plain net cube is. Give the mantids angles, twigs, bark, etc. just like nature does.

Here is an almost foolproof way to keep any mantids molting well:

1.) Mantids can get stuck. Keep humidity high, especially when young.

2.) Mantids do not do grip slick surfaces well. Give them something rough and easy to grab.

3.) Mantids are large insects. Exuvia is weak and will rarely support large mantids. Give a slanted surface (I use 45 degrees) so when through the molt, they can reach forward, instead of up and over the weak and brittle exuvial bridge


----------



## sporeworld

Yeah - I had considered elevating the front of my enclosure to put them at a slight angle, but just didn't bother. In the VAST majority of cases, I had to personally remove the exuvia, as all 4 legs were still firmly attached. This is the positive quality of the spongy carpet liner. However, if someone wants to further improve their odds, tilting the enclosure may have added benefit. I wonder if, when tilted, they will all face the same way before molting? If not, then the tilting could be worse. Hmmmm.

And, yeah - Angelofdeathzz - its ALL good. As with heat, humidity, decorations, food and enclosure types, we've proved there are some truly harmful approaches, and a very wide array of acceptable ones. So, keep the faith!


----------



## Psychobunny

Sporeworld said:


> Good points, all around.
> 
> Some notes: I suggest some kind of liner on as many surfaces as possible with Idolos - simply because I experienced more incidents of misformed legs (from trying in vain to grasp the glass with still-forming legs) than from side-molting. Once I had the lining on the tops, I had zero out of hundreds even attempt a side molt. I think the prevention of over-crowding is far more important to their molting success than eliminating side-molt opportunities.
> 
> I've NO idea about the health effects of this material. Do we even know if cancer is a concern with mantids? Or Idolos? Or are they apparently immune like sharks are alleged to be?
> 
> I love the enclosure you posted - really top notch. For the bottom, you can use moss, or any one of many "litter" or bedding products available at stores, fairly cheaply.
> 
> If I ever mention "misting" in my posts, I almost always should have said "drenching". As Phil pointed out in several threads, a few spritzes are just not sufficient do do more than just let them drink. I drench the ###### out of everything in the enclosure - it's more than a day before it's dry again - even in LA.
> 
> Concerning heat and the ceiling - yeah - what they said. Much warmer at the ceiling. Lighting can be an issue, since they'll want light above them. To this, you could aim your light at the wall or ceiling, and see if the bounce light will do the trick. Heat from the lights will rise anyway, so win/win.
> 
> And bunny - for being such a good sport about all this - send me a PM and I'll send you one of my old Taylor Thermometer / Hydrometers. They're really great and will keep you from guessing if you've got them in the right place.
> 
> And, I LOVE to innovate. When it's all figured out, I get bored and move on. I'm still looking for better alternatives to the carpet liners, the substrate, heating, timers, misters, enclosures, and so on. Just less pressure since I'm mantis free at the moment. So, hopefully that confession will keep people from thinking I'm attacking THEIR ideas - I'm just attempting to improve on THE idea.	As such, I'm prone to lots of failures, embarrassments and apologies. But I'll get it right eventually...


OOoo, Taylor used to make some nice hydrometers back in the old days, cheap too!!

I only have a few expensive, calibratable ones, but they are not inside the enclosers, they monitor

the room RH.

It would be nice to have something accurate I can stick inside with my mantis  

Soooo, I may take you up on your generous offer  

I have no pride when it comes to a nice person offering to give me something usefull  

P.S. I kind of give all my mantids a "shower" when I spray them too.

In a few hours, it's dry again anyway, and it's the best way to know they got a good drink!

Lots of molting problems come from not drinking enough water, and/or ill-hydrated feeders.


----------



## Bryce08

So this morning I wake up to one of my L5 that molted to L6....She had obviously molted throughout the night and I didnt see, because when I woke up she was already completely dried, BUT hanging from only 2 legs with her claws on her tarsals placed opposite ways.

So I look at the top of the cage, and see her skin. She lost her 2 back tarsals...You can see her front legs she had stretched forward a little bit, but her back legs got stuck which I guess she pulled her tarsals out...Needless to say I was a little mad because she molted 100% on sticks hanging from top of the exo terra, which is why I was a little lost at how she got stuck.

But ###### happens...Oh well....So im trying to come up with a cage that will better suit her, because I definitely want her to live on and make it through this...which she should be able to. Shes acting normal just hanging from only 2 legs. She still has her front claws, all her legs, just missing her back tarsals.

This morning I tried to hand feed her a BB fly, but she didnt want it...still could have just been because she recently molted. Normaly I just let BBs go inside the cage for them to catch...but I was afraid to this morning with the other idolos being in the cage, as well as her trying to go after them and falling hard...although I think she would do fine on the ground by just dragging her legs. Let me know what you guys think....When I get home im going to take some pics, I just have 2 crappy phone pictures that you cant really tell anything in.

Edit:

Heres a picture, but im almost positive she had both legs like on the right there, not like on the left, I think maybe she chewed part of the left one off there during the day....?


----------



## Psychobunny

Someone mentioned something that makes a lot of sense to me regarding angled surfaces.

I saw this on Amazon. Sheets of bark which you can cut into desired pieces.

I was thinking of cutting pieces to turn the square, right cube angles into a more slanted gradient:

http://www.amazon.co...33397371&amp;sr=1-3

Granted, I do not see a need to get neurotic about all this, it runs into a lot of money.

If I could find out how long time succesful breeders do it, that's what I will follow.

Folks like Yen and Henry are the only 2 I know so far, but I'm sure lots of U other guys who posted wonderful advise are also

experienced breeders.


----------



## Chivalry

Precarious said:


> I usually glue all the sticks to two thin flat wooden dowels then use bread ties to secure the dowels to the screen at the corners. Works great.
> 
> I've had up to 4 adults in a 12x12 which is pushing it. Helps if you add a second level of perches. Right now I have 6 L7s in a modified net cube and they are not stressed or cramped at all. They really like the fake vine I arched across the mid level.


I'd love to hear more about your net cube modifications.


----------



## Chivalry

I am using a combo of shelf liner (similar to the carpet liner but more densely woven - their feet were getting thru the stuff i originally had in there) with natural material rug-hooking grid over that, then sticks supported by LLCoolJew's awesome foam idea. This is 3 currently L5's in a 12 x 12 x 18 ZooMed - I have an L6 currently kept separately that I would like to introduce to the commune eventually. I'll post pics later. There are fake vines on the sides, no liner. So far zero molt or health probs. I am pondering 'safety net' modifications for later (heavier) molts.

I've had a few molt from the vines also without problems but that's not going to be the case when they are bigger.


----------



## Precarious

Chivalry said:


> I'd love to hear more about your net cube modifications.


Not much to tell. Nick was getting good results raising younger nymphs in net cages so I gave it a shot. So long as you really keep up on humidity they work fine. Lay paper towel and add fake vine secured with safety pins. Make sure you get the kind with cloth leaves. Being able to pin things wherever you need them is pretty handy.

Once they got a little older I safety pinned a grid of twigs like the one in the link below, but they've been consistently dropping to the vine, away from the crowd, for molts. So make sure you have the vine high enough to molt from.

*Terrarium with lots of twigs*

Some photos of one of the net cages in this comment:

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=21061&amp;view=findpost&amp;p=192937


----------



## agent A

these r the sticks i have now






here she is!!!































her in her cage






little unclear, but after misting her, she got scared shitless! literally

the red is indicating her head, the blue indicates the poop she took after misting the cage


----------



## warpdrive

agent A said:


> My idolo has a reduced appetite for some reason
> 
> Is it true they have to catch stuff out of the air to eat?


I would say that 75% of the time, mine only catch flys in mid air.

Harry


----------



## angelofdeathzz

Psychobunny said:


> Instead of tree sticks on the lid, what about those cheap chop sticks they give you at Chinese food
> 
> places for free!!
> 
> They are unfinished sticks, but are they rough surface enough?
> 
> I can get tons of these. Beats having to cut tree branches!!!


When I use sticks It's the soft bark that I'm going for, the hooks on their feet dig in and hold even after the molt is done, sometimes it's a challenge to get the exoskeleton to come off after, which is a good thing, lol.

But any wood is better than letting them molt from the screen.


----------



## Psychobunny

I think you are right.

Modding my Exo Terra 18 X 18, I just used what I know works, real sticks from trees and spongy carpet liner.

I am not sure what to do with the back. I have the carpet liner on the sides, but I ordered 2 18X18'' natural cork

tiles from Amazon.

So, I am hoping that will not only look nice, but also provide good grip for my idolo's.

Here is my mod work so far. I have used 100% silicon glue to glue the Ultratherm UTH to the glass bottom.

The glue is rated for over 250F and always works fine for me.
















This is the 18 X 18'' cork tile I ordered as the back panel. If it turns out I dont like it, I will glue another piece

of carpet liner instead.

http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Natural-Background-18-Inches/dp/B0019J1VPY/ref=sr_1_8?s=pet-supplies&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1333823783&amp;sr=1-8


----------



## Psychobunny

Thanks  

What do U think of the cork tile idea?


----------



## Bryce08

Looks good, looks almost exactly like mine. Which heatmat is that?


----------



## Precarious

Psychobunny said:


> Thanks
> 
> What do U think of the cork tile idea?


The cork tiles are great. I have one in my 18" tall Zoo-Med but I covered it with a bamboo mat because it made the tank too dark. I was shooting video in there so I needed a lighter background to make the mantids stand out better. But otherwise they are very nice.

My whipspider loves the one in his tank. :devil:


----------



## Psychobunny

xxFaultxx said:


> Looks good, looks almost exactly like mine. Which heatmat is that?


Ultratherm sold only by The Bean Farm.

They are the best. The ones by Exo Terra and ZooMed are ######!!!

These actually are regulated to sence the room temp. so in many cases, unless you need

precise temps, with these you do not need a thermostat, they will not go over 110F in a cold room

and will automaticly lower it's temp if the room air is warmer.

They are very thin, and cheap!! No "peel and stick" that cant be removed.

Just use some silicon cement (fish tank glue) which will peel right off when you want to remove and

use it on something else.

I have lots of them, some I have had for several years.


----------



## angelofdeathzz

The cork should be great for climbing on/up without messing with it, but in all my many Exo Terra's be it 12x12 or 18x24 that have always been filled with Idolo I never have had anything on the sides just glass, I use 3-4 angled vertical branches per sq foot from the bottom to the top(as shown in my pics) and should any hit the bottom they spend less than 2 minutes down there, find a branch and scurry back up to the top without any incident, except one adult male I had a while back that never seemed to bright and never even tried to mate even though he had many chances.

So in short I'm saying it's not needed, any money spent on sides could be used elsewhere, they have eyes and can see a way up if provided, I don't know maybe it's just that I've had all my 100's of Idolo from L1's and they learned, but I don't think so?


----------



## Psychobunny

Finally finished my Exo Terra mods and got all my guys in there!

Had to cut the cork tile and plywood base down to size.

Fixture has 2 25W incan bulbs with provide 75F when measured in the middle of

the 18'' cube encloser.

Have a 11 x 11'' Ultratherm UTH silicon glued to the bottom (no thermostat needed)

The cork tile was hard to glue to the glass!! hot glue did not do the job, had to use a 2 part

epoxy.

Let me know if I did anything wrong!! :


----------



## Precarious

Psychobunny said:


> Let me know if I did anything wrong!! :


Looks great! Top sticks could be thinner but I don't think that is a deal breaker. Just watch the molts to make sure it isn't.


----------



## Bryce08

Looks really nice, very nice and neat looking.

I need to get me another exo terra, I sold one to a friend thinking I had another 2 lined up for only 25 bucks a piece, and he wont call me back now


----------



## Psychobunny

xxFaultxx said:


> Looks really nice, very nice and neat looking.
> 
> I need to get me another exo terra, I sold one to a friend thinking I had another 2 lined up for only 25 bucks a piece, and he wont call me back now


I have a large wide 18 x 18 x 36'' one for sale if you want to pop over this weekend to pick it up


----------



## Psychobunny

Precarious said:


> Looks great! Top sticks could be thinner but I don't think that is a deal breaker. Just watch the molts to make sure it isn't.


Thanks Henry, I was hoping for your feedback.

The sticks look bigger in the pics for some reason, maybe it's the lens, but it's not a wide angle, so I dont know

why it does that.

I tried to pick the smallest ones. I have been watching them closly as they walk around on it, and they look comfortable.

They really like to hang out on that carpet liner stuff (on the two sides) and seem to be more agile (for an idolo that is!!) on it!!

P.S. also, as you can see, the sticks are glued to the carpet liner and not the screen lid.

I glued the carpet liner on first, then layered the sticks over it. So they have extra support.


----------



## Psychobunny

I noticed they like to congregate on the right side wall. There is a window a few feet to the right on that

side, so I thought they were attracted to the sunlight.

I put a piece of black craft paper over that side to block the light and train them back to the ceiling!!

So far, my plan isnt working so well!! Maybe I should put stronger bulbs in the fixture??


----------



## Bryce08

Psychobunny said:


> I noticed they like to congregate on the right side wall. There is a window a few feet to the right on that
> 
> side, so I thought they were attracted to the sunlight.
> 
> I put a piece of black craft paper over that side to block the light and train them back to the ceiling!!
> 
> So far, my plan isnt working so well!! Maybe I should put stronger bulbs in the fixture??


Mine roam and move all over the cage all the time, for a few days they will all hang around up top, then stay at the bottom of the cage for a couple days...the positioning of my light doesnt seem to change anything for them.


----------



## sporeworld

Psychobunny said:


> I noticed they like to congregate on the right side wall. There is a window a few feet to the right on that
> 
> side, so I thought they were attracted to the sunlight.
> 
> I put a piece of black craft paper over that side to block the light and train them back to the ceiling!!


Yup! Light attracts the Idols - heat attracts the flies. You'll see them separate almost immediately. Move the light and heat sources and come back in an hour for proof. I repositioned all my enclosures to avoid any view of the sun.


----------



## Psychobunny

Precarious said:


> Looks great! Top sticks could be thinner but I don't think that is a deal breaker. Just watch the molts to make sure it isn't.


Had a problem! the bulbs in the hood melted the hot glue, causing a few of the sticks to fall !!

No injuries, but had to think fast and fix it.

Now I have the hood elevated one inch so it does not rest on the lid.

I also put a small 3'' fan (battery op) on the hood.


----------



## Psychobunny

Sporeworld said:


> Yup! Light attracts the Idols - heat attracts the flies. You'll see them separate almost immediately. Move the light and heat sources and come back in an hour for proof. I repositioned all my enclosures to avoid any view of the sun.


Yep, they did just that! in a few minutes, they were back on the lid  

If it is not possible to possition the cage away from an unwanted light, thick black craft paper works wonders  

You can order it from any arts and crafts place pretty cheap.


----------



## sporeworld

+1

Even with wildly different temps, we all came out about the same.

Also, if the glue is failing and you aren't that handy with tools (me), you can use twisters, garbage ties, thread, or even pipe cleaners. All will hold them in place. Just lace it though the screen, the carpet liner, or both.


----------



## Psychobunny

I do the same, I spray them directly (they dont seem to mine it at all!!). It's the only way

to be sure they get a good drink.

I prefer not to spray through the top of the terrarium because I have sticks glued up there,

and I dont know what continued dampness may do to them!!

I just open the front door (a few sometimes make a break for it!) and spray!

I think my melting glue problem is solved as long as the light hood is not actualy touching

the top metal screen.

The hood is now elavated an inch with a small fan mounted to it.

In this position, the temp from the 2 25W bulbs has dropped some, so I was able to put a

better 60W full spectrum bulb in it. It now looks much better, white light instead of incan yellow!!

and no over heating yet.

Controlling the temps between the lights, and the under tank heater was a little tricky.

I want a temp zone so they can go to what ever place they want for the temp they want.

Something I learned from keeping reptiles, hot end, cool end (where the food and water are).


----------



## dr0ndeh

just thought i'd post in this thread to show my appreciation. I recently acquired a couple of L2 idolo's from a breeder on the UK forum, both doing very well, one just shed this evening to L3, used alot of the info on this thread to make the enclosure etc so I just wanted to say a big thanks as they seem to have gotten off to a great start, both feeding well and seem very content, and hopefully will be able to stay that way to adult (which with the info gained from this thread im fairly confident they will.)

so thanks! heres a couple of pics if you're interested...


----------



## sporeworld

Nice! Since you only have 2, that cage might last you through their entire lifespan. Not sure how you're planning on introducing prey items, but I've always appreciated feeding ports in the top of my enclosures. Here's a few pics.












I cut the screen and used rubber ports at first. Then, found large rubber washers at the Hardware store. Eventually, I just bought pieces of colored foam from the craft store and cut it to size. In any case, just creating a way to drop in food without opening the door is a huge boon.

Good luck!


----------



## dr0ndeh

Sporeworld said:


> Nice! Since you only have 2, that cage might last you through their entire lifespan. Not sure how you're planning on introducing prey items, but I've always appreciated feeding ports in the top of my enclosures. Here's a few pics.
> 
> I cut the screen and used rubber ports at first. Then, found large rubber washers at the Hardware store. Eventually, I just bought pieces of colored foam from the craft store and cut it to size. In any case, just creating a way to drop in food without opening the door is a huge boon.
> 
> Good luck!


thanks sporeworld, as these are the only mantids I have im feeding wild caught flies, just catching the food in a jar, opening up the front of the viv and letting them fly out the jar and right in. in the event they manage to escape before i close the front i just re-catch them in the room and try again  currently feeding them crane flies or blue/green bottles pretty much on a daily basis (or less if theyre particularly full from a bluebottle.) all seems to be going well so far, the 2nd molted to L3 today:


----------



## sporeworld

Nice.

Nothing was produced from the mating(s). I kept the ooths for myself and didn't let them breed again, but nothing hatched (pretty sure the science says it couldn't).


----------



## sporeworld

Earlier in the thread I mentioned a kind of "Shield Rot" I had seen on my Idolos. I finally got some close-ups back from my friend with a Macro lens (although, I may have already posted this). Here's the early stage...






Here's a more advanced case...






Here it's worse...






Genetic? Parasite? Mineral deficiency? Pretty sure it was just in the one group.

Any thoughts...?


----------



## Precarious

Sporeworld said:


> Genetic? Parasite? Mineral deficiency? Pretty sure it was just in the one group.
> 
> Any thoughts...?


I would guess that's the result of a fungus. I've seen various spots and holes on a few of mine but nothing as extensive as this. Not sure what could be done about it but I wonder if in some cases it's internal and causes deaths.

I just had a sub female die for no apparent reason. Stopped eating, evacuated her bowels and went limp. Today I looked at her corpse and noticed one of her eyes is clear, like the fluid normally in it drained out. I've never seen that before and I'm wondering if it has something to do with the cause of her death. It wasn't that way while she was still alive. Maybe there is some kind of parasite in there.


----------



## sporeworld

Yeah - kinda thought a fungus might be the culprit, too. It looks like something is penetrating the skin, and causing blood loss. Amazing what we still don't know...


----------



## sporeworld

I only remember seeing it with adults. It might have shortened their lives by a bit, or diminished their health... hard to say (or remember). It wasn't quick, in any case.


----------



## Chivalry

This is my L7 male. I have the now-L6 trio in my ExoTerra but this one is a full molt ahead of them and I haven't wanted to mix instars so he's solo. He was in an 80 ounce deli cup with a well-lined lid and, I'm afraid, probably not enough humidity - usually he stays immobile for days before a molt, and this time he didn't, and ate up to the day before, so he caught me by surprise... the plan was to move him to his new hex home before the molt happened. nline2long: And here I thought my noobness was wearing off some.

Long story short, he got one of his middle legs caught in his exoskeleton. I've had this before with some of my other guys so I soaked it really well and helped him get out of it, I thought. Well, turned out I just detached the exoskeleton leg and the new leg was still in it. Unfortunately I didn't notice this until 2 days later. Every once in a while he manages to hook the bum leg up correctly for inverted hang time (which is his default, he is really not one to crawl around or hang out on the sides of his container) but for the most part he just leaves it hanging.






We have 1 molt left or two? He gets along with this the way it is but my big concern is that he's not going to be able to hang properly for his next molt, especially if it's his final molt. What say you?

Here's his new setup, a 10" plastic hex, which he seems to approve because the sticks are at varying heights, so he can rest his leg where it's comfortable. I have carpet liner on the ceiling with sticks below, and I found this awesome greenery chain at Hobby Lobby that I thought might make a decent safety net. The 45 degree surfaces, except for one viewing surface, have either carpet liner or the hemp (I think?) grid that is used for rug hooking.
















And the other 3 are in my ZooMed 12 x 12 x 18. I'm hoping to move the big guy in there when everyone's adult. Carpet liner covering the screen, sticks with weather stripping holding them up, greenery garland along the sides. Substrate is coco bark plus sphagnum moss. I have a 60 watt bulb plus a UTH that is actually meant for a much smaller tank, but it helps a little. It stays around 83-85 degrees in there near the top. Humidity is a constant challenge to keep up.
















The L6 trio is doing great, came through the last molt with not a hitch. Actually the big guy's issue is the only molt issue we've had so far, but of course they've all been subadult molts. Fingers crossed for me, guys.


----------



## Precarious

Chivalry said:


> The L6 trio is doing great, came through the last molt with not a hitch. Actually the big guy's issue is the only molt issue we've had so far, but of course they've all been subadult molts. Fingers crossed for me, guys.


Not much you can do about a missing leg other than cross your fingers.

I would be concerned there is not enough ventilation in that hex. Maybe replace one face or at least the lid with screen. It wouldn't hurt to add a loop of fake vine around the wall opposite the other vine. I buy a nice length pretty cheap at ACMoore. It's really useful because the wire in the stem is pretty stiff allowing you to shape it. It will even stay in place without gluing if you bend it properly. Would add a lot of cloth leaves to climb and hang from. Also, the more surface area you add to the enclosure the better it will hold humidity. If not you should add a few strips of the hemp grid to grip. Chances are he will molt from the spot he's in in the photos. You want as much grippable material within reach as he hangs from the old skin.

Ideally those upper slanted surfaces would be used to molt if they were coated. Then he could just step forward off of the skin.


----------



## agent A

r u sure the L7 is a male??

it's cool though


----------



## Chivalry

You probably can't see, but there are six 1" holes cut in the top above the mesh. Think I need more ventilation than that? I will cover the slanted surfaces with hemp and add more vines, and possibly a few more sticks on those slanted surfaces too.

Here's another angle, you tell me if you think male or female. I was ... maybe 80% sure I'd finally figured it out :shifty:


----------



## Precarious

Chivalry said:


> You probably can't see, but there are six 1" holes cut in the top above the mesh. Think I need more ventilation than that? I will cover the slanted surfaces with hemp and add more vines, and possibly a few more sticks on those slanted surfaces too.
> 
> Here's another angle, you tell me if you think male or female. I was ... maybe 80% sure I'd finally figured it out :shifty:


Yeah, I would add more ventilation than that. Add a screen window somewhere.

Definitely female. L7 male antennae look like horns. I can't see the abdominal spikes well enough to count.


----------



## Precarious

zack4211 said:


> if i get a terrarium should i make the top mesh or metal screen which one is easier to grip on to while molting?


We put a lot of work and info into this thread so we don't have to answer basic questions individually. Read through at least the first couple pages before asking questions.

And check these threads for photos of how I setup my enclosures:

Enclosures and Housing: The Basics

Terrarium with lots of twigs

New Idolo Tank


----------



## Chivalry

Yep, pretty sure he is male, I made a closer inspection of his antennae and spikes... it sure helps having several in the same instar to compare. I'm not _really_ that worried about breeding them with this few, but if it happened I'd be ecstatic.

I do have another question that I don't _think_ has been covered yet. Precarious, I noticed in your vids that you have a setup for flight time for the girls. How important do you guys think "out time" is? I am considering setting up a corner of my bathroom with a fake tree and maybe some other stuff so the gang can take turns on field trips.


----------



## Precarious

Chivalry said:


> How important do you guys think "out time" is?


I doubt many dedicate the time and space to this so it's not necessary. For me, however, it is necessary. When you bring any mantis out of an enclosure they become a different animal entirely. They really seem to come to life; they will fly, look all around the room, and explore. I feel I owe the adults that extra freedom, especially with a large species like Idolo. At the moment I've got some adult Heterochaeta sp. on that tree. There is an adult female Unicorn that lives on the window.

Most people probably don't have the option of doing this. They may have pets or small children, and there is the danger the mantis will wander into the room and get hurt. You've always got to be aware so you don't step on one. Each mantis has a different personality too. Some will stay put while others won't. I almost stepped on one particular Heterochaeta that just wanted to constantly roam. He's now back in the tank while his siblings are content to hang on the tree.

So it's not necessary for their survival, but it sure is rewarding to watch them play and be more of what they would be in the wild. They fully recognize when they have that extra freedom.


----------



## Chivalry

I've noticed that too, and I've also noticed that live plants seem to matter. I had a bamboo that the L7 adored when she was little enough that it supported her well.

Unfortunately I don't have decent enough light for most house plants. I find it amusing that I browse the garden center looking for 1) low light requirements and 2) good leaf texture/shape for empusid feet to stick to.


----------



## sporeworld

I'm with Precarious (mostly). I'm positive it isn't NECESSARY - in that they will live, eat, mate and produce fertile ooths regardless. And there IS some risk with letting them FLY, as they are TERRIBLE at landing (on anything other than a tree). They fly fast enough, and have enough mass to make any crash a fatal event. But, it sure is fun to watch!

That said, if someone is having trouble getting their male to mate, pulling them out of their enclosure, taking them to a new room and letting them roam free (that is, _pheromone_-free), I suspect you'll be rewarded for your efforts. Sooooo not science.

As stated earlier, I LOVE to play with my critters. So, my setups are engineered with this in mind (easy access).


----------



## angelofdeathzz

Males fly pretty well, females don't!


----------



## zack4211

So i just finished my Idolo terrarium and now i need a thermo/hydrometer does anyone sugest any specific brands that you prefer


----------



## agent A

zack4211 said:


> So i just finished my Idolo terrarium and now i need a thermo/hydrometer does anyone sugest any specific brands that you prefer


fluker's


----------



## zack4211

agent A said:


> fluker's


 I read some reviews and a number of people said that they are way off and dont work the right way so im hesitating getting it but does yours work accurately?One more question what type of bulb should i get cause theres all different kinds of uv bulbs( http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/lighting.php )


----------



## agent A

mine works pretty good

it's a digital hydrothermometer

i figure out how accurate it is by putting several different thermometers in one area and if there's little significant discrepancy, they're either all right or all wrong


----------



## zack4211

does anyone sugest using a heating pad during the night or at all?


----------



## agent A

Heat pads r a waste of money


----------



## zack4211

agent A said:


> Heat pads r a waste of money


 so then what should i use to heat the tank during the night and winter


----------



## sporeworld

At night, probably nothing. A little cooling is fine (see first page of this thread). If you really need/want to heat, I suggest a ceramic bulb. If not that, try a heat stone or a heating rope (or whatever that thing's called).


----------



## zack4211

last question; what are the proper temperatures and environment the ooth should be put in (dormant/nondormant)?


----------



## sporeworld

The easy answer *for me* was to just keep them in the same environment as the adults. Hot, well ventilated and more than 40% humidity. I did a lot of variations, and didn't see any differences that I could point to definitely. I even setup a grid in my tall tank with about 10 ooths, each about 3" further away from the lights than the other. No appreciable difference noted.

On the other hand, Angelofdeathzz (the "Idolo King") probably has more specific, and consistent advice. So, do what HE did.


----------



## angelofdeathzz

I would agree with Sporeworld on keeping them close to the same as adults would be kept. I like the 80oz deli's for incubating with a screen mesh side added for air flow and cloth lid, not metal screen(so you can feed ff's). Misting heavily once a day or when it dries up again, you don't want it to wet or they will mold up on you.

hot glued mesh with tape to be sure no ff's get out:












don't be alarmed when they come out reddish brown, the black color takes a few hours to set in.


----------



## agent A

here's a molting pic


----------



## dr0ndeh

just a quick update on mine, I now have a L7 female and a L6 Male (not sure why the male has developed slower, it was my understanding they were usually faster)

and here is a quick macro vid of the L7 female eating a bluebottle


----------



## Mirk

Best of luck to ya Brancsikia. I Just had my male molt to adult on the 21st, and got a couple shots of him drying his wings.

Last night I took him out to hang out with me while I played around on the intronet when a male chinese flew into the light he was chilling on. I let a couple males go in the house to help get rid of all the moths I keep letting in at night. Twas funny tho, when the Chinese approached the Idolo(didn't see him half a body length infront of him), the Idolo threw like half a threat pose and I swear the chinese forgot he had wings. He turned and did the "nymph" jump and run thing right off my desk. Anyhow had the camera handy and got a few pics before they got too close to eachother

Anyhow here are some pics, sorry they aren't very pro











After almost 5 days
















And my female who i am hoping will follow his lead in the next week or so


----------



## dr0ndeh

Female moulted to Sub last night, she is now L8 while the male is STILL L6

hes been L6 over a month now, well fed, anyone heard of this before?


----------



## Mirk

So i have a kinda random breeding question... It's one i have yet see and am just a wee bit concerned about their bulkier size and sometimes clumsy tendencies.

So i was wondering what positions the females most often took before the male would show interest and/or pounce(examples; hanging from the ceiling, Standing upright as-if standing on the ground,). I am just wondering how I may want to introduce her to him. It is looking like my male will be about 5 weeks into adulthood when she starts calling, so the fewer attempts(if I get any) it takes for him connect, the happier I shall be.

Also very sorry I could not be more articulate with my question, but i have a dying wireless keyboard and no batteries in site. If it is too confusing I will try and clarify when i have mo power, and less urge to beat my keyboard.


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## angelofdeathzz

She will hang horizontally with the tip of her abdomen twitching up and down(calling), then if all is right he will start to walk in fast circles around the top of the enclosure/her and seem very wound up till he makes his move, but I did have a male jump on the female as soon as he saw her once, he literally jumped from my hand right to her back and you could tell his switch was ON!


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## Chivalry

How much should I be feeding my subadults? I was going by the way their abdomens looked, but I woke up this morning to one of the females devouring the male...


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## Mirk

very cool on the hatch

I am super excite right now. So last night my female was lookin like she needed some lovins. Giving buddy those over her shoulder looks, wavin her moneymaker around like she just don't care. Even attracted all 4 of my free range male chinese? They where hangin very near her enclosure. Kinda caught me off guard as she is still only 14 days from her adult molt. So I figured I'd let him have a shot at her before i pulled him outta the room to avoid that pheromone saturation beez. Well I came in to turn on the light this morning and bam, he's connected.

Even more craziness is the conditions. Yesterday they were at no more then 80-85 degrees and 30-50% humidity, and last night when he made his move with it was about 75 with 70% humidity. Although until yesterday (light burned out)they where getting 93-98 for daytime temps and 75-80 at night. Humidity was 30-40 during the day and 70-90+ at night.

Also these are the only 2 idolos I've had( got them at 3rd instar). Technically i had a 3rd but she died the night I received her. And after realizing I could actually raise these little turds, no-one had anymore. I feel pretty darn lucky getting a connection

Anyhow here is apic


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## Mirk

Super sorry to hear that Chiv. I basically just fed mine until they refused more. They seem to do pretty good at knowing when enough is enough. I wonder if it might have started out as a territorial issue and the male got a little too persistent. And again I sorry for your loss


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## angelofdeathzz

Hats off to both Steve and Mirk! I've been waiting a long time now to see some success out there, and bam here it is! :sorcerer: 

Sub and adult Idolo can eat more BB's than most people think, they are piggies! 6-10 a day each is totally in the norm, a couple each per day in a grouped enclosure will spell trouble sooner or later, sorry Chivalry...


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## angelofdeathzz

Chivalry said:


> Seriously, you should see their big ole booties... I can't imagine they were hungry. Just ticked off, I guess.


I've seen 100's of Idolo come and go, a fight over food is one thing but they don't eat each other over a grudge or temper tantrum, it was something else you need to address.


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## Mirk

Got another connection today. Still no ooth yet.

Conditions for the past 24 hours have been temps between 74-84 with humidity running 42-75. Currently it is 80 with 67% humidity. The previous mating had fairly identical temp and humidity. It just took place in the morning. Makes me wonder if the high temps are truly that necessary, as both of my matings have happened during drops in daily highs. Normal temps for me are 90+ in the day and around 80-75 at night, with humidity around 30-50+ during the day and 70-90+ at night.


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## Emckenzie24

I'm sure this has been answered on this thread before but 48 pages is a lot to sift through :/

I have three idolomantis L2 nymphs in one of hibiscusmile's medium hexagon enclosures. When will I need to separate them? Thank you for your time!


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## Precarious

Emckenzie24 said:


> I'm sure this has been answered on this thread before but 48 pages is a lot to sift through :/
> 
> I have three idolomantis L2 nymphs in one of hibiscusmile's medium hexagon enclosures. When will I need to separate them? Thank you for your time!


Technically, you never have to separate them. Incidence of cannibalism is very low with this species given enough space and food, but it's more likely to happen in early instars than later. You may want to separate by sex once that becomes possible so you can speed the females. And it's good to separate adults by sex to prevent males becoming less sensitive to the female's pheromones.


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## Norlin

I have 6 in an exo-terra small/low (18x18x12) with Yen's carpet liner ceiling, they're in the process of molting to L4 (4 of the 6 were molted as of this morning) and have been in there together since L1. There's always been plenty of HF in there and I haven't lost any yet.


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## SSimsswiSS

Precarious said:


> Technically, you never have to separate them. Incidence of cannibalism is very low with this species given enough space and food, but it's more likely to happen in early instars than later. You may want to separate by sex once that becomes possible so you can speed the females. And it's good to separate adults by sex to prevent males becoming less sensitive to the female's pheromones.


 I would like to add that at later stages near adulthood, it's a good idea to keep lower numbers together. There is risk of a cage/tank mate bumping into a fellow molting mate. Which usually isn't a good thing.


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## Precarious

brancsikia339 said:


> My male is very old and weak. He can barely stand on his own and can't really crawl.. The male is also (I have no idea why) Missing one of his feet (Not full leg, just foot). He doesn't walk flatfoot, either. He doesn't use the gripping pads on his feet and the only thing he can climb on is couch. I don't know how i could possibly mate them. He can't even climb the cage walls to get to her, let alone mount her and mate her.


One of my males is also missing a foot. It seems this species is very prone to it. Even if kept loose on a plant it can happen over time. But there are a few things that increase the probability. If they feel confined they will rampage and end up losing feet. Also if you keep them in a net cage sometimes the feet get stuck and end up pulled off. This also happens with the feet on the ends of their raptors.


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## angelofdeathzz

With some people it's 50/50 and with others its much better like 90/10, depends on your care and preparation, the first time with them is almost always harder than after you have some experience. And with this Mega thread it should be even easier to have success, something I didn't have when I started with them long ago, they were just a pipe dream and no one even dared try them, spare Yen of course.


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## agent A

any special requirements for the final molt i should be aware of???


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## angelofdeathzz

Almost all of my final molts happened at night or early morning so mist very well before the lights go off, and have plenty of good molting surfaces, I Iike branches with the bark still on, but some people like the "carpet liner" material, in the end they just need something they can sink their claws deeply into so when they climb back up the old shed it holds in place like a self made ladder.


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## agent A

here's the adult girl!!!


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## Mime454

How long after adult does it take for them to be fully green?


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## agent A

Mime454 said:


> How long after adult does it take for them to be fully green?


5-7 days


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## angelofdeathzz

I might add, with breeding this particular species It helps to have more than one male, and those should be put far away from the females for 2-3 days prior to any mating attempt to decrease the pheromone saturation(many species benefit from this) they build up, then heated for a few hours to 95-98 to help stimulate them(they will move around alot) now its time to put in a cooler female 75-80 in the enclosure with the males(hot) mist around the cage but not too much on them directly, add 20-30 BB's and watch the show unfold, well if the stars are aliened anyway?


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## Rousher

His mantis are beautiful in Mexico is not as easy to get, but over here we have S. limbata, Yersiniops sphodrónica, bactromantis Toltec, and other endemic species. But we can also get African species, Oriental, etc..

By the way, I'm new to this page, thanks for accepting me as one of you.
Sorry for my English, google translator is not very good.


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## MantidBro

Wow, a bunch of useful information, thanks to those who've kept this species and passed on the info.


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## sally

Here is the start of my first Idolomantis enclosure. I went through the threads and pictures, and this is what I came up with. Any advise is appreciated. The front will be a screen door made by Bug Trader.


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## glock34girl

Nice work Sally. What type of screen did you use?


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## sally

glock34girl said:


> Nice work Sally. What type of screen did you use?


I have one of the screen kits from Bug Trader. It is fine mesh and opens from the front on a hinge. I love it!


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## angelofdeathzz

Looks great Sally!

Be good to my babies  Mist every day and keep them warm(84-88), if your keeping them together feed them well, too many flies is better than not enough, they have been known to snack on a fellow molter if not tip top full in earlier instars.


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## sally

angelofdeathzz said:


> Looks great Sally!
> 
> Be good to my babies  Mist every day and keep them warm(84-88), if your keeping them together feed them well, too many flies is better than not enough, they have been known to snack on a fellow molter if not tip top full in earlier instars.


Yes, I will be good to them! I have a humidifier, also a fan, and if needed a reptile humidifier for in the tank. Plenty of hydei and mels in there


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## angelofdeathzz

Maybe I should have messaged you(but people need to know) they can and really should have house flies at L2 and can even eat BB's now, I only use ff's for they're first few feedings at L1 then it's house flies and at L3 it's all BB's there up. They may be saying "where's the beef" lol as they already are used to larger prey, it helps keep them from looking at one another as the next belly full.


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## MantisMatt14

I love how well this Idolo discussion went! In my experience heat above 70 degrees is crucial because anything below it will cause the mantises to become lethargic and their metabolism will be slowed down and they will not be interested in the food they are offered. Temps above 85 degrees are best and no greater than 105 degrees. The heat speeds up the Idolos metabolisms so with little of it will cause mismolts, no interest in food, etc... I am glad people are realizing that sticks and plants are crucial to successful molts because mismolts make no one happy especially when it is an Idolo. Good to know the many people in the hobby that are really getting good at writing caresheets on Idolomantis!  ^_^ :sweatdrop:


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## MantidBro

*MANTIDBRO'S IDOLO EXPERIENCE*

*Temperature*: 80F - 95F

*Humidity*: 70% - 80%

*Prey They Prefer*: Fruit flies (L1), Blue Bottle Flies/House flies, moths, grasshoppers, darkling beetles (L2 and up), Dubai roaches (boiled to kill bacteria and then hand-fed in bits and pieces).

* I've tried feeding mine bees before... one of the bees bit the Idolo's claw and wouldn't let go! I haven't used them since.*

*Prey You Shouldn't Risk Feeding Them*: Crickets!! A lot of mantids can't seem to handle the bad bacteria on them, and will become sick (vomiting) before dying. Some may survive the sickness if given honey and water.

*TIP:* Idolos are hard to feed. They are picky. if you run out of food by Winter, it's a good idea to freeze some prey that they enjoy in the freezer. Try teaching them to be hand-fed as young as possible. Patience is key when teaching them how to be hand-fed.

*MOLTING*

*Molting Time-Table (days):*

Female:

L1-L2: 14
L2-L3: 13
L3-L4: 11
L4-L5: 15
L5-L6: 18
L6-L7: 26
L7-L8: 43
L8-Adult: 65

Male:

L1-L2: 17
L2-L3: 18
L3-L4: 11
L4-L5: 16
L5-L6: 25
L6-L7: 31
L7-Adult: 44

*It very much depends on how much they are fed.*

*Successful Molting Surface For L1-L5*: Molts have been very successful using gauze bandage.







*Successful Molting Surface For L5-L7*: Drawer liner works very well for when they're older and bigger/heavier. I use this exact type.






* Safety nets are useful for molts past L6. They seem to have trouble without one. I align the sides of their containers with drawer liner and/or Polyester Cargo Mesh.*

*Successful Molting Surface For L7-Adult*: Polyester Dive Mesh/Polyester Cargo Mesh (the netted material found in swim shorts). This has worked so well that a female actually held onto the exuvia (shed skin) with two of her feet after molting and the exuvia didn't fall. They get an incredible grip on this material. You can use this material through out their entire lives as opposed to switching from material to material.





*TIP:* Long enclosures are a good idea, but wide ones aren't as helpful. It seems that once they get bigger and heavier, it's better to have them in narrow enclosures for their molt. I align the walls of their molting enclosure with polyester cargo mesh and/or drawer liner, so that once they're ready to pull away from the exuvia that they'd been hanging from, it's much easier.

Example:






See how he uses the wall of the enclosure before hanging upside down from the top? It helps lessen the chance of them falling once trying to transition from hanging from the exuvia to gripping a surface.

*Issues I've Run Into*:

Heat lamps placed directly above the mantid can cause problems. One of my Idolos mismolted from L5 - L6 because of this. He lost the walking hairs (the hooks used for gripping/molting) on two of his feet because they got stuck in the exuvia because he molted right underneath the heat lamp and the heat lamp dried up his feet. The mantis below ended up having to be put down because he fell during his next molt due to the absence of those walking hairs. Here you can see, what NOT to do:






My first adult female Idolomantis diabolica (Baline):











My First Adult Male Idolomantis diabolica (Heterodox):






To Be Continued (Breeding).


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## Danny.

MantidBro said:


> Just figured id give my input!
> 
> My idolos like 80-95F with around 60% humidity. At night it drops to 70-80F. I have moss at the bottom.
> 
> They molt well from shoes laces, at least for L1-L2. Ill update on later molts about that.
> 
> I tried giving mine some little bees, one bit my idolos claw and wouldnt let go! I wouldnt feed mine bees or wasps.


Bro, feed bees and wasps only at L5 and adults. It's their favorite.


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## MantidBro

Danny. said:


> Bro, feed bees and wasps only at L5 and adults. It's their favorite.


They werent regular bees, they were about three centimeters long. Im not sure which species they were. But were definitely bees. Idk if im gonna risk doin it anymore though... Not unless i kill the bee first then hand feed. But thats not as fun as watching them catch their own prey lol


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## MantidBro




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## Dail14

A quick question. I just started keeping one of these guys after I got a L-2nymph. Last night it molted to L-3 and I moved it from the deli cup it came in to a 10 gallon tank with large and small sticks hot glued to the sides and metal screen on top. I have started offering it flies that I catch from outside but it seems that she is unable to catch them. She tries but just fails each time. Should I move her to a smaller cage until she completes another molt or is there some way I can help her? She has now not eaten in 2 days so I'm kind of worried. She hunts better at night so I'm hoping she might get one while I sleep.


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## Dail14

A quick question. I just started keeping one of these guys after I got a L-2nymph. Last night it molted to L-3 and I moved it from the deli cup it came in to a 10 gallon tank with large and small sticks hot glued to the sides and metal screen on top. I have started offering it flies that I catch from outside but it seems that she is unable to catch them. She tries but just fails each time. Should I move her to a smaller cage until she completes another molt or is there some way I can help her? She has now not eaten in 2 days so I'm kind of worried. She hunts better at night so I'm hoping she might get one while I sleep.


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## MantidBro

Dail14 said:


> A quick question. I just started keeping one of these guys after I got a L-2nymph. Last night it molted to L-3 and I moved it from the deli cup it came in to a 10 gallon tank with large and small sticks hot glued to the sides and metal screen on top. I have started offering it flies that I catch from outside but it seems that she is unable to catch them. She tries but just fails each time. Should I move her to a smaller cage until she completes another molt or is there some way I can help her? She has now not eaten in 2 days so I'm kind of worried. She hunts better at night so I'm hoping she might get one while I sleep.


I'd move her into a smaller container for now, since she is still only at L3. I honestly kept mine in delis until they reached L5. You just gotta be sure to have the sides of the deli lined with drawer liner or something of the sort so molts are successful.

You can also try hand-feeding, but I'll warn you that it's tough. Idolos seem to be a bit skittish. But I've been hand-feeding them since the beginning so it CAN be done, as long as they're hungry. Does your Idolo look starved? They can go without food for a few days if they're already stuffed. Or if she just reached L3, she won't want to eat for a couple days anyways.


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## Dail14

I moved her to a smaller container. She has managed to catch at least one fly. Well I found one pair of wings on the ground so she maybe ate more but completely. Tomorrow I will bring home some slow moving wasps from my lab. Only makes so there is no danger but she should have no trouble killing them. I did all try the hand feeding with crickets but I lacked the dexterity to let go when she grabs and she let go too fast.


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## mantiseater

Dail14 said:


> I moved her to a smaller container. She has managed to catch at least one fly. Well I found one pair of wings on the ground so she maybe ate more but completely. Tomorrow I will bring home some slow moving wasps from my lab. Only makes so there is no danger but she should have no trouble killing them. I did all try the hand feeding with crickets but I lacked the dexterity to let go when she grabs and she let go too fast.


dont try crickets! there are always mysterious deaths after feeding mantids crickets


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## Dail14

mantiseater said:


> dont try crickets! there are always mysterious deaths after feeding mantids crickets


At the time she wasn't eating anything and had fasted for several days. I would rather have risked possible problem foods over letting her starve. I figured out that the problem was that she was having a hard time hanging upside down on the mesh I had at the top of her cup so I glued medical gauze onto it and she quickly got comfortable and is now eating well. In fact today she molted into her 4th instar.


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## MantidBro

mantiseater said:


> dont try crickets! there are always mysterious deaths after feeding mantids crickets


Agreed


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## MantidBro

Dail14 said:


> At the time she wasn't eating anything and had fasted for several days. I would rather have risked possible problem foods over letting her starve. I figured out that the problem was that she was having a hard time hanging upside down on the mesh I had at the top of her cup so I glued medical gauze onto it and she quickly got comfortable and is now eating well. In fact today she molted into her 4th instar.


Thats great news!


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## LAME

*LAME's Experience. *

Temperature: 80°F - 105°F

Humidity: 70% - 90%

Prey: 
L1 - Fruit flies.
L2/Adulthood -  house flies, moths, green/blue bottle flies, bees, wasps, Dubai roaches, lobster roaches, and Madagascar hissing roaches. (Babies/smaller nymphs only.)

Prey to avoid: Crickets. Do not feed them crickets.

Molt time very dependant upon feeding (Meal sizes/how often.) and also heat. Come later instars you can delay molt times by feeding less (keeping them SLIM...Not starving. ) and dropping heat to 80°F
You can also reverse it and speed molt times so they will molt quicker.

ALSO NOTE: Come later instars (Presub,Sub,Final molt.) If you're like me and watch your idolos closely , you notice swelling around the jaw, mouth,and budwings of the mantid. Once you pick up on it, you can judge your molt window (and PREPARE.) for those final sheds.

Housing/molt surface:
Materials Needed:

Hot glue sticks/Gun.
Rubberized shelf liner.
Polyester mesh.
Tape. (Clear packing tape. Not regular. )
Time.. and a little patience. 

L1/L5 - Modified "Idolo Friendly" 32oz deli container will work. Hot gluing rubberized shelf liner on the inside walls and lid is ideal.

L5/Adulthood - Modified "Idolo Friendly" builds. (5 gallon/ desired.) I personally use 10 and 20 gallon. Idea remains the same, however.

--- IMPORTANT: Before wasting your time and supplies, take the time out and tape all edges of the inside of the tank. Without doing so when the glue hardens it will simply peel off in a day or so..

ALSO NOTE: Come the last few molts I add in polyester mesh. Combined with the rubberized liner, so far has been a godsend on my end.

Lifespan - 1 year, Give or take a few months. Males perish 1-3 months after reaching adulthood.


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## LAME

I would like to add wax worms to excepted food items without any negative outcome. 

Tried by me (LAME.)


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## Jaywo

I know there is a back and forth on humidity for this species and I for one have tried both. The last couple of molts, I went with bone dry and they seem to molt better and faster. Of course, this is a sample of 3 so it could be just luck. I do plan to raise the humidity soon as my big female just went through a molt and is L6. I want to follow the dry and wet season in Tanzania if possible fo the mantis age. The picture shows her doing some funny acrobatics (she couldn't get a grip).


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## y1oveu

Females are opportunists.

They can eat others who are during molt.


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## Rango100

really cool care sheet. this species is incredible but so fragile. I unfortunately lost mine today. she miss molted although I gave her high heat and lots of proper gripping sticks to molt off. she must of fallen but I have no idea why.


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