# Anyone hatched a recently laid S. Limbata Ooth yet?



## cloud jaguar (Dec 3, 2008)

I know a lot of our Southwestern US brethren and sistern are currently incubating Oothecae laid from wildcaught S. Limbata females - Anyone have any luck hatching them out yet? I am wondering because I have several ooths from S. Limbatas - one of them from 10-5 - which have not hatched out yet. They have been incubated consistently yet no dice - perhaps infertile? Seems unlikely when they are from 3 different females!

Alternately, we put a couple out in the garden. I am beginning to suspect that S. Limbata may require a cold period like Devil's Mare, since it is a desert dwelling species? Could that be why S. Limbata and S. Californica are not in culture?

Anyone?...... Anyone?...... Bueller?......

~Arkanis


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## Rick (Dec 4, 2008)

Arkanis said:


> I know a lot of our Southwestern US brethren and sistern are currently incubating Oothecae laid from wildcaught S. Limbata females - Anyone have any luck hatching them out yet? I am wondering because I have several ooths from S. Limbatas - one of them from 10-5 - which have not hatched out yet. They have been incubated consistently yet no dice - perhaps infertile? Seems unlikely when they are from 3 different females!Alternately, we put a couple out in the garden. I am beginning to suspect that S. Limbata may require a cold period like Devil's Mare, since it is a desert dwelling species? Could that be why S. Limbata and S. Californica are not in culture?
> 
> Anyone?...... Anyone?...... Bueller?......
> 
> ~Arkanis


Keep waiting. You would want to wait at least another 8 weeks before giving up.


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## Katnapper (Dec 4, 2008)

Rick said:


> Keep waiting. You would want to wait at least another 8 weeks before giving up.


But make sure you're not holding your breath while you are! :lol:


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## Rick (Dec 4, 2008)

Katnapper said:


> But make sure you're not holding your breath while you are! :lol:


Yes or you are going to be pretty dead. I hate waiting for ooths to hatch.


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## cloud jaguar (Dec 9, 2008)

It Haaatched!!! Starting last night, our S. Limbata ooth laid on Oct 5 hatched! - 3 1/2 inch long green nymphs with long legs and huge eyes were running around like crazy! None else hatched for several hours. Then at night I was adjusting the ooth and accidentally crushed an emerging nymph  . This morning there are about 12 or 13 green nymphs running around like crazy. They are suuuuper hoppy and jump like grasshoppers!

We bought some small deli cups today to put them in so they do not murder each other. When is a good time to separate them?

~Arkanis


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## The_Asa (Dec 9, 2008)

Arkanis said:


> It Haaatched!!! Starting last night, our S. Limbata ooth laid on Oct 5 hatched! - 3 1/2 inch long green nymphs with long legs and huge eyes were running around like crazy! None else hatched for several hours. Then at night I was adjusting the ooth and accidentally crushed an emerging nymph  . This morning there are about 12 or 13 green nymphs running around like crazy. They are suuuuper hoppy and jump like grasshoppers!We bought some small deli cups today to put them in so they do not murder each other. When is a good time to separate them?
> 
> ~Arkanis


3 1/2 inches?!

I would seperate them as soon as they molt.


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## Hypoponera (Dec 9, 2008)

I also had an _S. limbata _ooth hatch. It started hatching out on Sunday night. I just got 3 more stragglers this morning. The total is 21 from this ooth.

No, _S. limbata _and _S. californica _do not require any kind of cold expossure. I think they are not in culture due to being "generic-looking" or "uninteresting native" species. Seems too few hobbists here in the States appreciate the _Stegmomantis_ species! But that is just my opinion.


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## Katnapper (Dec 9, 2008)

-Asa said:


> 3 1/2 inches?! I would seperate them as soon as they molt.


Asa, I think he meant 3 of them had hatched last night.... at about 1/2 inch in size.


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## The_Asa (Dec 9, 2008)

Katnapper said:


> Asa, I think he meant 3 of them had hatched last night.... at about 1/2 inch in size.


Oh, I see. Thx :lol:


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## Katnapper (Dec 9, 2008)

-Asa said:


> Oh, I see. Thx :lol:


Hey, but it was pretty fun imagining 3 1/2 inch newborn nymphs, wasn't it?  I'd be thinking about getting them a new larger *cage* (not container), and myself a lion tamers start-up set real soon!


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## hibiscusmile (Dec 9, 2008)

:lol: Wonderful, wonderful, I like all the species, havent' met one yet I don't like, but the native ones are neat cause they are so hard to geT! I was watching a little tv while working today, and the movie was from 1954 and called "Them" anyone remember it?


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## yeatzee (Dec 16, 2008)

YES! man i thought i was done with the whole mantis thing until spring because all my adults died, and i thought my mating attempts failed but today after school I checked and half of my first ooth has hatched with little mantids everywhere in and out of the cage =) I havent hatched nymphs in so long i forgot how small they were so i quickly covered the small holes with a breathable material. Man im so excited because this was my first attempt at raising from nymph to adult and mating and it worked out!


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## Katnapper (Dec 16, 2008)

yeatzee said:


> YES! man i thought i was done with the whole mantis thing until spring because all my adults died, and i thought my mating attempts failed but today after school I checked and half of my first ooth has hatched with little mantids everywhere in and out of the cage =) I havent hatched nymphs in so long i forgot how small they were so i quickly covered the small holes with a breathable material. Man im so excited because this was my first attempt at raising from nymph to adult and mating and it worked out!


Congrats, Yeatzee!!  I've been right there with you today and yesterday... chasing little newborns that somehow are escaping through my (what I thought was escape-proof) modification to a Critter Keeper. Little boogers!!  Aren't they a riot though...


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## cloud jaguar (Dec 16, 2008)

Congrats Yeatzee! Post some pics  HOw many are hatching out of there? If anyone of us whith S. Limbatas get any of those PEACH colored ones we should mate them!!

Or trade breeding stocks to if we plan to keep them in culture. Ours started decapitating each other after 3 days - not so bad at all if they are not crowded though.


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## yeatzee (Dec 16, 2008)

Aww man they are so funny to watch. Never seen such hyper insects. I've got several more hatching right now........my mom continued to say they were duds but nope i gave it one more week and tada! I have had only one instance of cannibalism....at least I think so because this particular nymph is extremely fat compared to all the others. I had a whole plant full of aphids for when they hatched but the cold has since killed em all.....so food may be a dilema. They shouldnt be really hungry until a couple days after birth right? I've got plenty of ants which i slightly injur so the mantids have an easier time getting them. No i do not put hordes of them in....just a couple every once in a while. When they get slightly bigger ill buy some fruit fly pupea and see how that works out.

It is extremely hard to get decent pictures of the little guys......but i'll try through the plastic.

Could someone post a pic of a "peach" colored limbata? Im curiouse to see how they look.

Edit: Well after putting in two ants just now i got six strikes on them but only one succesful. Pretty funny whatching them and their unhoned hunting techniques.


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## kamakiri (Dec 16, 2008)

Congrats to you too Yeatzee!

I've still gotta find my way to Pasedena so I can buy some from Arkanis. Would be nice if we could establish a breeding program/exchange or something.

And I hope the recent storm hasn't been to hard on my SoCal neighbors.


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## yeatzee (Dec 16, 2008)

thanks.....i have 8 ooths that were all layed in succession so im waiting for the second ooth layed to hatch. Man im gonna get over run  

The storm atleast were i live was wonderful. We don't get a lot of decent showers so it was a welcome pleasure....for me atleast. Were do you live kamakiri?

Edit: I counted and i have 80 exactly nymphs hatched so far from my frist ooth layed.....and still more are emerging.


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## kamakiri (Dec 16, 2008)

I'm in O.C. - Irvine.

Yeah, it does sound like you're gonna be over run with nymphs! At least these are legal to release.

Just wondering, did either of you try to store some of your ooths in the fridge or perhaps outside?


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## yeatzee (Dec 16, 2008)

I was originally going to once all my adults died (they lived with the ooths they layed) but the weather was really bad and i just didnt want to risk the ooths failing because i put them outiside. I did put one cage in my garage which is colder though.....so we'll have to see how that one works out.


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## kamakiri (Dec 16, 2008)

Good idea...I bet that one hatches in the spring or late winter.


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## cloud jaguar (Dec 16, 2008)

My wife and I put 4 ooths outside in the mantis garden - they are sucured under a 1/2 coconut shell from the petshop to keep the rain off of them. I know that at least one of the eggs is fertile and I hope they hatch out like crazy in there. We planted passion fruit/flower vines so the fruits rot and attract fruitflies in the spring for the nymphs.


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## yeatzee (Dec 16, 2008)

Well this confirms i need a macro lens  I could not get close enough or still enough to get any in focus shots (tripod is broken)....plus they are never in the same place i put them by the time i have the camra ready  Well these are the best i could get:

Here's one i found running around my bathroom......









And causality #1. I was checking on them and i found what looked to be a mantis eating something. After closer inspection one mantis was eating this ones front arms. This one was trying to crawl away and another came and grabbed it. It proceded to eat only a small fraction of its head leaving it alive for some time. Poor little guy.


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## Katnapper (Dec 16, 2008)

Maybe he got full...


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## yeatzee (Dec 16, 2008)

Well I found casualty #2 just now.......


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## yeatzee (Dec 17, 2008)

Hey so i've been able to feed mine some ants.....but only a few get to eat because most of the ants crawl out of the cage so what are you feeding urs? I was thinking of just buying some fruit fly pupae will that work good? Which kind and from where would be best?


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## kamakiri (Dec 17, 2008)

I don't know of anyone who sells FF in pupae only, but I buy cultures.

Petco.com works in a pinch. I also order from Rebecca.


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## Hypoponera (Dec 17, 2008)

Mantiplace is a good source for flightless FF. If you don't mind having flying fruitflies, Spider Pharm is good also. Spider Pharm does sell the pupa if you do not want to try a culture. But you better hurry! Figure a week to get them and a few days for the pupa to hatch. Your nymphs will be eating each other well. You may not have many left!!


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## yeatzee (Dec 17, 2008)

Yeah, well because of that the nymphs have been semi seperated in large containers......

Im alittle intimidated by starting a ff culture TBH, which is why i would prefer pupae. Would i just buy the flightless FF culture from mantis place and use that for so long and than buy a new one when i need a fresh one?


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## Hypoponera (Dec 18, 2008)

You can buy a culture and use it up, then replace it with another. Or, to save a fair amount of cash, you can buy a culture, and buy the culture medium at the same time. Both are available at MantisPlace. The culture medium comes with pretty clear directions. Also, buy at least a couple extra 32oz cups with lids. You will get enough medium to set up several cultures. The medium is dry and does not need to be used immediately. Used wisely, you can keep an active culture going for several months. But you will probably need to have a couple cultures going to provide enough FFs to feed a huge number of nymphs.


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## yeatzee (Dec 18, 2008)

well i think im going to dive into this FF culture thing head first. I just found another 10 dead nymphs, but 18 more just hatched leaving the total at around 88 nymphs currently. For what ever reason none of them will eat the ants, they actually scare them.

Now correct me if im wrong but buying 1 culture of melanogaster FF's from mantis place will cost $20 bucks right with shipping? That seems like alot, so i found another place http://www.stflies.com/buy_melanogaster.html and theirs is alot cheaper. Is there anyother place I could purchase a culture of melanogaster FF's for relatively cheap?

*EDIT:*Ok im confused, on mantisplace it has the option for like 10 dollar shipping and a more expensive option so i thought u had to pay that price for anything u buy making their $10 FF culture about $20.......but i rang it up on paypal with out clicking the 10 dollar shipping option to check if there was a different shipping charge and now its not charging me shipping. If i buy it will they not send me what I bought because i didnt click the shipping option of 10 dollars or 25 dollars? Someone please help me out because i am thuroughly confused and my nymphs need food.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 18, 2008)

yeatzee said:


> well i think im going to dive into this FF culture thing head first. I just found another 10 dead nymphs, but 18 more just hatched leaving the total at around 88 nymphs currently. For what ever reason none of them will eat the ants, they actually scare them. Now correct me if im wrong but buying 1 culture of melanogaster FF's from mantis place will cost $20 bucks right with shipping? That seems like alot, so i found another place http://www.stflies.com/buy_melanogaster.html and theirs is alot cheaper. Is there anyother place I could purchase a culture of melanogaster FF's for relatively cheap?


Rebecca's price will depend on whether you buy any equipment, such as extra deli cups and culture medium, or not. She has an Advanced Degree in packing and may (you'd have to check with her) be able to ship everything for one Priority Mail fee. Also, of course, you know that if you order from her, you'll get exactly what you ordered.

However, Ohio is far away from where we live, and is very cold right now. I order from California because I know that I will get Priority Mail in two days. Since you live in CA, you might want to contact Obregon, a forum member, who ships from Long Beach, or The Fruit Fly Shop: http://www.buyfruitflies.com/; I have had good service from them.


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## Katnapper (Dec 18, 2008)

yeatzee said:


> well i think im going to dive into this FF culture thing head first. I just found another 10 dead nymphs, but 18 more just hatched leaving the total at around 88 nymphs currently. For what ever reason none of them will eat the ants, they actually scare them. Now correct me if im wrong but buying 1 culture of melanogaster FF's from mantis place will cost $20 bucks right with shipping? That seems like alot, so i found another place http://www.stflies.com/buy_melanogaster.html and theirs is alot cheaper. Is there anyother place I could purchase a culture of melanogaster FF's for relatively cheap?
> 
> *EDIT:*Ok im confused, on mantisplace it has the option for like 10 dollar shipping and a more expensive option so i thought u had to pay that price for anything u buy making their $10 FF culture about $20.......but i rang it up on paypal with out clicking the 10 dollar shipping option to check if there was a different shipping charge and now its not charging me shipping. If i buy it will they not send me what I bought because i didnt click the shipping option of 10 dollars or 25 dollars? Someone please help me out because i am thuroughly confused and my nymphs need food.


Yeatzee, contact Rebecca directly about your order, as it won't be completed if you didn't select a shipping option (even if it appears to be, but they wont ship if you don't pay shipping). You needed to select the $10.00 option as you're just ordering supplies/feeders, not mantids. Don't delay... I'm afraid you might have a lot of deaths by the time you receive a ff culture (from anywhere).

Edit: Call or visit your local PetCo now if you have one... they usually carry fruit fly cultures, and if so it can get you by until you get your online order.

Another Edit, lol: You're going to have to suck up shipping unfortunately if you order online, and that's about your only option to get exactly what you need usually. Try the local PetCo though... no shipping there! And it could save your babies if you get them some food asap. Timing and planning are so critical when hatching the ooths... gotta be prepared.

I know you're trying to go the least expensive route, which I do too. But I agree with Hypoponera's advice above and recommend you buy some media and extra cups with lids at the same time as a culture. You may spend a little more up front, but will be saving money in shipping in the long run. If you're buying melanogasters, you might also consider that once your mantids grow a little, you'll then be needing the D. hydei for them. So there you go again with needing to order online (and shipping). To save on shipping, you could order some D.hydei's at the same time as your melanogasters, media, and cups. Then you'll have them when you're ready. But they won't be as fresh or last as long as if you ordered them right before needing them. So many things to consider....  Good luck with whatever you do!


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## yeatzee (Dec 18, 2008)

Ha, man I know I should have been ready but as read in a few topics i made months ago I mated my limbata females but after doing some research and whatnot it seemed i mated them with the wrong males, but i couldnt tell for sure because all my males died when i found this out so I really wasnt expecting anything. The ooths were just there in the cages to show people.

Alright well right now they are all feasting on eachother at the moment, but i've got so many I think i'll be fine and i always have the other 7 ooths that were laid which _should_ hatch as a fall back. Now I was planning on buying 6 32 oz cups from mantisplace, some mesh to hold the FF's in, 1 culture, and some supplies for more but I didnt really think about what might happen to all the fruit flys because I am sure it is cold right now in Ohio. So I am probably going to still buy the 6 32oz cups, but now i need a new place to buy the FF cultures with fruit fly's from. A key note here is that they must be flightless! So guys here is where i need some seriouse help!

Edit: alright I bought the $16 pack from fruit flies inc. (12 cultures, 1 active)Now I just need some mesh to cover the large holes in my critter keeper cages. Where can i get some _CHEAP_


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## Katnapper (Dec 18, 2008)

yeatzee said:


> Ha, man I know I should have been ready but as read in a few topics i made months ago I mated my limbata females but after doing some research and whatnot it seemed i mated them with the wrong males, but i couldnt tell for sure because all my males died when i found this out so I really wasnt expecting anything. The ooths were just there in the cages to show people. Alright well right now they are all feasting on eachother at the moment, but i've got so many I think i'll be fine and i always have the other 7 ooths that were laid which _should_ hatch as a fall back. Now I was planning on buying 6 32 oz cups from mantisplace, some mesh to hold the FF's in, 1 culture, and some supplies for more but I didnt really think about what might happen to all the fruit flys because I am sure it is cold right now in Ohio. So I am probably going to still buy the 6 32oz cups, but now i need a new place to buy the FF cultures with fruit fly's from. A key note here is that they must be flightless! So guys here is where i need some seriouse help!
> 
> Edit: alright I bought the $16 pack from fruit flies inc. (12 cultures, 1 active)Now I just need some mesh to cover the large holes in my critter keeper cages. Where can i get some _CHEAP_


Ok... here's some more info...

I use melanogasters for the very small nymphs, most of them do take melanogasters at first. Not sure how little S. limbata are at birth. But some, like my Chinese and Texas Unicorns, were big enough to eat D. hydei right off the bat.

I first ordered both melano and D. hydei cultures... along with some media mix, extra cups and lids, and some excelsior to make my own to use after the ones I ordered got old and expired. But you have to make new ones up as soon as, or shortly after, you get your pre-made cultures. Do this as soon as you see that the pre-made cultures have lots of adult flies, and you have enough you can feed your babies with and can spare some extras to start the new cultures with.

To make the new cultures just follow the directions they will probably include. If they don't include directions, lots of ff culture selling sites have directions online. Basically, mix up the media ingredients how they tell you, put in some excelsior, then put about 50-100 of the flies that you got from the original culture in each culture to start a new breeding cycle. It will take about 2 weeks for the melanogasters to start producing more flies. And it will take 3-4 weeks for the D. hydei to reproduce to ready-to-feed adults. That's why you can't wait until you need more flies to make up new cultures. Don't forget or put it off... you can't breed new ones overnight. And there's no way to significantly speed up their reproductive cycle, although keeping them at around 80 degrees will optimize the cycle time.

It's really not as hard or complicated as it seems at first. I was all confused and worried what to do at first too. But just jump in, like you said... and you'll learn just fine.  

For the *screening cheap*... If you are going to use melanogasters especially, go to a fabric store or Walmart and get some white organza or tulle fabric. You don't need a whole bunch... 1/2 yard would probably be plenty. It will only cost a couple of bucks. You can get actual aluminum or fiberglass replacement screening at a hardware store. A roll that will last you forever and then some costs about 7-8 bucks. But the ff's (especially melanogasters) can escape through it. What I do is use both (1 layer of each), one on top of the other... the mesh screen for stability and strength, and the fabric to keep the little ones in.

But you'll need glue and a glue gun too... which they are fairly cheap at Walmart too. Low temp. kind has been recommended. Any more questions.... ask away! And don't forget to let us know how you make out.


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## yeatzee (Dec 18, 2008)

Thanks for the help, everything is set now....

here's an extremely crappy pictures of some more nymphs hatching.







and a nymph being eaten...also a crappy picture in which i blame my dog/no tripod/no macro lens/and the list goes on and on for both  






*EDIT:* well amongst the chaos of trying to get these nymphs fed I was able to convince my mom to let me use a small closet in our "play room" (aka tv room, etc). This way I can have my own little tidied spot for my bugs. Well heres some pictures i took real quick, and no its not set up yet and i dont have half the cages i will soon. _all the random items seen in these pictures will be removed_  






^ there are shelfs above the highest cage











My little sister is homeschooled which is why there are a bunch of papers and other ######......


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## yeatzee (Dec 19, 2008)

Well I just had an extremely rude awakening. I've been putting a couple regular small black ants you find in your house eating your food in my nymphs cages. Well i figured some were eating them which some probably are because there were parts of ants on the container floor, so i dropped in a couple more and noticed one nymph go after an ant. Well it began to eat the ant when somehow it got free of the nymphs grip and bit it (didnt even notice they had jaws) under the head and on the back of the head paralyzing the mantid. It continued to bite it eventually leaving the paralyzed mantid alone. I then noticed that many of the bodies of the what i thought were dead nymphs moved a little....not a dead twitch type but like the paralyzed mantid moved. They also had no visible wounds from being attacked by other mantids with a magnifying glass. Keep in mind these are _regular ants you find everyday in your house searching for your food....ya know the annoying little black ants_

Im not putting anymore ants in their cages without physically injuring them leaving them as what i hope to be easy prey.


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## Katnapper (Dec 19, 2008)

yeatzee said:


> Well I just had an extremely rude awakening. I've been putting a couple regular small black ants you find in your house eating your food in my nymphs cages. Well i figured some were eating them which some probably are because there were parts of ants on the container floor, so i dropped in a couple more and noticed one nymph go after an ant. Well it began to eat the ant when somehow it got free of the nymphs grip and bit it (didnt even notice they had jaws) under the head and on the back of the head paralyzing the mantid. It continued to bite it eventually leaving the paralyzed mantid alone. I then noticed that many of the bodies of the what i thought were dead nymphs moved a little....not a dead twitch type but like the paralyzed mantid moved. They also had no visible wounds from being attacked by other mantids with a magnifying glass. Keep in mind these are _regular ants you find everyday in your house searching for your food....ya know the annoying little black ants_ Im not putting anymore ants in their cages without physically injuring them leaving them as what i hope to be easy prey.


Good spotting that, Yeatzee. I was wondering about the ants earlier. I've read several times before that ants are one of the few insects not recommended to feed to mantids, or that they wouldn't eat for some reason.

Congrats on getting your new space!


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## Hypoponera (Dec 19, 2008)

Sorry to provide this so late. DON'T FEED ANTS TO YOUR MANTIDS!!!!!!!

Most ants have a sting or are able to spray/release a nasty chemical mix from the tip of the abdomen. And ALL ants have very powerful mandibles. Depending on species, a single "harmless" ant can take down a _Stegmo_ nymph with no trouble!

There is another, even worse, problem with ants. If you use ants from near your home, you risk an all out invasion. If one ant escapes and returns home, you can be certain others will return following the scent trail left by the escapee. Then your nymphs will become dinner for the ants. I have seen ants wipe out a whole room full of tarantulas. Locked in cages, the spiders had no chance to escape! Your mantids would be in the same boat.

Also, you can use cheese cloth as a tank cover. It is a woven fabric that will keep FFs in. Stegmomantis nymphs love to climb around on it as well. Available from walmart for a couple bucks in the craft/fabric section in packs.

By the way, your "crappy" photos are a heck of a lot better then any of mine!


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## yeatzee (Dec 19, 2008)

wow first involuntary double post &lt;_&lt; Mods please remove


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## yeatzee (Dec 19, 2008)

Man, i wish i knew that earlier. Well i've personally killed each ant within 20 feet of the cages so they should be fine now. I was incredibly amazed as to how quickly and percisly it killed the mantid. Kinda freaked me out to be honest.

im gunna buy some cheese cloth today after my school finals are over. Thanks guys......man i hope atleast a couple of my nymphs make it.


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## yeatzee (Dec 19, 2008)

ooth number two is hatching right now.....how are everyone else's ooths doing?


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## kamakiri (Dec 19, 2008)

Not sure about any other ooths, but I picked up some nymphs from Arkanis &amp; son last night  ...was good to meet you both!

I also should have warned you about the ants...nasty suckers in most cases. I've even had captive ant colonies decimated by invading ants that fit through ventilation holes. At least three times I recall. :angry: 

And I also forgot to mention that there's a source for pinheads/crix near you in Fallbrook... Mulberry Farms

Good luck to you.


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## yeatzee (Dec 19, 2008)

Just got 6 yards of cheese cloth from walmart for $4 bucks! Im just waiting for those dang flies.

A quick question.....what do you guys do whith ur FF's once you dont have anymore nymphs to feed because they have either died or out grown them?


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## Katnapper (Dec 19, 2008)

yeatzee said:


> A quick question.....what do you guys do whith ur FF's once you dont have anymore nymphs to feed because they have either died or out grown them?


I haven't experienced that yet. But if you do, you can feed them to the fish if you have a freshwater aquarium (I know nothing about saltwater fish or aquariums). If you don't have one, then maybe you know someone who does who might appreciate them.

But if you're planning on expanding your mantis collection anytime soon, you might want to keep a culture going...


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## Hypoponera (Dec 20, 2008)

I suggest you keep the culture going. I have kept mine going since 2007. It is a good idea to keep the culture as you may get more nymphs or ooths in the future. And FFs should be good to feed fish.


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## Katnapper (Dec 20, 2008)

Hypoponera said:


> And FFs should be good to feed fish.


Our fish love them! They can always tell now when there's an excess of ff's.... it's live banquet time for them!


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## yeatzee (Dec 20, 2008)

The only fish in the house is my sisters Betta fish....would this eat the fruit flies?

Well I just attached the cheese cloth.......












How long should it take to get my fruit flies? Im really anxious to save my nymphs!


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## Hypoponera (Dec 20, 2008)

The best way to test the FFs is to toss a few in with the betta. If they get inhaled, you'll know. Just check back to make sure they are eaten. If the fish refuses them, remove the FFs before they die and sink.

Speed of delivery depends on method of shipping and speed of seller. If you want them fast, pay the extra for express shipping! But you will probably need some one home to sign for the delivery. Priority takes 2 days to go from MantisPlace in Ohio to me in New Mexico. But that can be longer, especially if the are shipped on Friday.


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## yeatzee (Dec 27, 2008)

Well guys good news......FINALLY my fruit flies came in today. Whats left of my nymphs (only ~15 left) are currently feasting! I need to make a second culture and there were supposed to be instructions but non came with my ff culture stuff i purchased, so does anyone have the directions for the fruit fly inc. cultures?


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## Katnapper (Dec 28, 2008)

yeatzee said:


> Well guys good news......FINALLY my fruit flies came in today. Whats left of my nymphs (only ~15 left) are currently feasting! I need to make a second culture and there were supposed to be instructions but non came with my ff culture stuff i purchased, so does anyone have the directions for the fruit fly inc. cultures?


Glad your ff's came in. I don't have their specific instructions, but you can contact them and ask HERE.


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## yeatzee (Dec 29, 2008)

yeah, I already did. Im just waiting for a response now :/


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## yeatzee (Dec 29, 2008)

Well i was getting out a few fruit flies to feed to my mantids when i noticed some nasty green color on the wood fiber in the provided culture from fruitfliesinc.com. I really need to get the instructions on how to make my own culture with the remaining fruit flies left before they are all gone. If anyone has the guide from fruitfliesinc please PM me the instructions. Thanks!

Man i get no break from all this chaos of stuff going wrong


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## kamakiri (Dec 29, 2008)

Sorry to hear you only have 15 left...from two ooths? You still have more ooths though, right?

Anybody have any pink ones yet? Some of my L2s are showing a little red on the back of the thorax, but that's about it.


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## yeatzee (Dec 29, 2008)

less than 15 nymphs now....from 1 large ooth and another medium sized one. I have 1 more ooth that im 90% sure is fertile but is very small. I have a couple more but i doubt they are fertile.

Idk because all mine are L1's, non made it to L2 yet so they all look the same.


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## yeatzee (Jan 8, 2009)

hey guys, I thought I'd update on my situation. All is good so far.....the flies were not reproducing, but all of a sudden in one day of not checking on them, there were hundreds of pupaus (sp?) and maggots so my mantids have plenty of food now. I've lost a couple more nymphs, but also gained a few very late hatchers. I havent seen any molt yet but a few look bigger than the rest.

Still no response from fruitfliesinc.com after 3 emails. w/e I'll just figure it out on my own  

Ill make sure to let u guys know if i have any pink ones, with pictures to follow when they get bigger and my kit lens can take an adequate photo


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## Katnapper (Jan 8, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> hey guys, I thought I'd update on my situation. All is good so far.....the flies were not reproducing, but all of a sudden in one day of not checking on them, there were hundreds of pupaus (sp?) and maggots so my mantids have plenty of food now. I've lost a couple more nymphs, but also gained a few very late hatchers. I havent seen any molt yet but a few look bigger than the rest. Still no response from fruitfliesinc.com after 3 emails. w/e I'll just figure it out on my own


Did you get the photocopied instructions I sent you from the other place?


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## kamakiri (Jan 9, 2009)

Glad to hear things are going better yeatzee  

I guess you haven't seen any of the old exoskeletons? I'm sure at least some have molted by now.


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## yeatzee (Jan 9, 2009)

Yeah I got it. Thanks btw

Kamakiri: Yeah today I cleaned out their cages and found 4.

Im really hoping I can succesfully raise these nymphs, this being my first attempt at raising nymphs I bred.


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## yeatzee (Jan 11, 2009)

Another update.....just thought I should let you guys know that I have what seems to be a pink L2 nymph. She/He is a very light colored nymph with deffinent pink hues, and is the only one of his/her kind currently.

I also now have mostly L2 nymphs, about 5 L1's left and 3 unkown and the rest L2's.

Also my fruit fly culture has sprang back to life and i now have about the same amount of flies as I did when I first got the culture.


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## Katnapper (Jan 12, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Yeah I got it. Thanks btw


You're welcome.


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## kamakiri (Jan 12, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Another update.....just thought I should let you guys know that I have what seems to be a pink L2 nymph. She/He is a very light colored nymph with deffinent pink hues, and is the only one of his/her kind currently.


Cool.  I hope that one is separated!

Thanks for the update, that's good to hear. So far I have a few that look like they have some pink/red pigmentation on the sides and top of the abdomen and at the base of the walking legs. The best one so far also looks like the eyes and head might have some too. That one in particular has a tendency to hang out on the hot flourescent pink colored part of the lid. The others with the spot on near the wing buds seem to also favor the pink/purple areas, if available.

I have 24 or so and all are L3 now.


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## yeatzee (Jan 12, 2009)

Got a second L2 like the one I just described. He/She seems pretty week though :/

I abandoned their (the nymphs) hatching cage and transported the survivors to 32 oz containers a long time ago. Well I decided to check the cage and found two barely living nymphs. I havent checked that cage in 2 weeks! I fed them a couple fruit flies and they seem to be right back to their regular energetic L1 self's  

Edit: Here's a picture of my 2 new cultures and my 1 old one.





The layer of brown towards the bottom are pupae and/or maggots


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## kamakiri (Jan 15, 2009)

My update...

Got a several L4s now. My pinkest ones seem a little less so now  The 'best' one just molted to L4 this morning before I left for work so I hope she looks more pink when I get home. And it seems they are much easier to sex at L4. At L3, there were still too many underside segments for me to tell either way. It seems that the 6th segment plate forms differently and the 7th and 8th must get pulled up and inside.

Grant


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## cloud jaguar (Jan 15, 2009)

We have about 24 S. Limbatas from 2 different ooths (L2-L4). Most are green - we have a super cool looking yellow/gold camo L4 kept with Gold Pear Crack paper on its cage. Also 1 pink L4 (also with Pearl Crack - pink). Some of the green ones have a bright pink abdomen segment immediately adjacent to the thorax - wonder what will happen to the color of these. Also a green L4 with camo dark green. I guess at this point it is a wait and see game. I sure do love Limbatas though - i think they have a really cool mannerisms and personality


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## kamakiri (Jan 15, 2009)

Cool.  

I'm trying to jump a generation and have nymphs ready to release by mid to late spring. Then keep more of just the partial pink morphs for continued/future breeding...maybe get 2.5 to 3 generations per year.

Is your second batch still mostly brown? I only have a couple so far.


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## cloud jaguar (Jan 15, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Is your second batch still mostly brown? I only have a couple so far.


The second batch which was all camo brown has changed to all green - i forgot to mention that one of the second batch is pink/orange with green underbelly - and one solid brown. Weird how they all became green. None of these are housed with Pearl Crack.


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## yeatzee (Jan 15, 2009)

Glad ur guys's nymphs are doing good!

I checked the other night on my mantids and found one that just molted into an L3. Pretty cool, to see em getting bigger and bigger

I currently have 99% L2's (a few more just hatched from my second ooth) with now 5+ L3's and let me tell you guys.......I've got a crazy assortment of colors currently. I've got a couple possible pink nymphs, a bunch of light to dark brown, regular green...... a goldish camo one and a couple green camo ones.

They are all good eaters with great personalities which makes them that much more fun. Too bad I wasnt able to save more though.....my mom really wanted them in our backyard  

One more question for you guys, at what instar will they need hydei FF's? I'd like to be prepared this time


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## Katnapper (Jan 15, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Glad ur guys's nymphs are doing good!I checked the other night on my mantids and found one that just molted into an L3. Pretty cool, to see em getting bigger and bigger
> 
> I currently have 99% L2's (a few more just hatched from my second ooth) with now 5+ L3's and let me tell you guys.......I've got a crazy assortment of colors currently. I've got a couple possible pink nymphs, a bunch of light to dark brown, regular green...... a goldish camo one and a couple green camo ones.
> 
> ...


I've never had or seen S. limbata nymphs so I couldn't tell you exactly. But if they are anything like the S. carolina nymphs I hatched, they will be ready at L2-L3. So I'd get going on it now if I were you.


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## kamakiri (Jan 15, 2009)

I started my L1s on _hydei_ flies...replied in your other thread from the place that you bought yours.

A little disapointed...  the pink/green female turned golden-brown 'camo' :angry: Oh, well. I had no idea what you guys were talking about 'camo'...a little obvious now...and she's the only one.


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## yeatzee (Jan 15, 2009)

Well if thats the case.....I think im jsut going to skip the hydei stage and go straight to.....well wht fly would be next?

My L3's are doing fine on melanogaster (sp?) fruit flies.


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## Katnapper (Jan 16, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Well if thats the case.....I think im jsut going to skip the hydei stage and go straight to.....well wht fly would be next?My L3's are doing fine on melanogaster (sp?) fruit flies.


House flies would be next... but they might not be big enough yet. I wouldn't skip the _D. hydei _stage. It will serve you better and longer than the _D. melanogaster_ stage.


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## yeatzee (Jan 16, 2009)

How much bigger are the Hydei? Could someone post a pic with preferably an L3 or L2 Limbata nymph so I am familiar with the size, eating a Hydei FF?


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## kamakiri (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm not currently feeding hydei right now...too small for the L4 _limbatas_, using crix for the remaining L3s, and they're too big for the L1 _P. virescen_ nymphs which I also have right now...

Here's a couple of pics I got from google images searching 'melanogaster vs. hydei'


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## cloud jaguar (Jan 16, 2009)

Our L4 limbatas are happily eating houseflies. Our L2/L3 limbatas still prefer Hydei.


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## Katnapper (Jan 16, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> How much bigger are the Hydei? Could someone post a pic with preferably an L3 or L2 Limbata nymph so I am familiar with the size, eating a Hydei FF?


I took some photos today of my _D. hydei _and _D. melanogaster_ fruit flies and made up some reference pics for comparing the sizes with them. There's also a size comparison between _D. hydei_ and the common house fly. Check them out in my* blog *under today's submission date. Hope this helps you.


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## yeatzee (Jan 17, 2009)

My problem is....why buy Hydei FF's if they are only good to L4 and than they neeed bigger, when I have L3's doing great on melanogasters...


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## Katnapper (Jan 17, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> My problem is....why buy Hydei FF's if they are only good to L4 and than they neeed bigger, when I have L3's doing great on melanogasters...


Well then go by your own judgement and try houseflies. If all goes well, great. If they are too big and the mantids won't eat them, you can either stay with the _D. melanogaster_ until they do or buy some _D. hydei_.


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## yeatzee (Jan 17, 2009)

Do you guys breed the houseflies?


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## kamakiri (Jan 19, 2009)

Not very pink, but the pinkest one I have since the other one turned camo brown-black:


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## Katnapper (Jan 19, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Not very pink, but the pinkest one I have since the other one turned camo brown-black:


Interesting coloration... I like it!  Hmmm.... is that how you tell the boys from the girls in this species (pink)? :lol: Lol.... j/k of course.  Thanks for sharing the pic... I really couldn't imagine the coloration you guys were talking about before seeing the pic.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 20, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> My problem is....why buy Hydei FF's if they are only good to L4 and than they neeed bigger, when I have L3's doing great on melanogasters...Do you guys breed the houseflies?


Two answers for the price of one!

Although there are limiting factors (e.g. if a mantis is about to molt, and not eating, or if it has just eaten a meal many times its size) a mantis will catch as much food as stimulates its striking reflex. In captivity, how often this happens will depend on the size of the enclosure, the number of food items offered, and their accessibility to the mantis. (This is one reason why it is better to feed 1n fruit flies to a mantis per day rather than 3n every three days). If you feed the same number of hydei per day as mels, the mantis will likely eat the same number of flies but receive a greater amount of food, grow faster and die younger.

Raising house flies makes raising fruit flies seem like a kindergarten exercise, which is why so many people simply buy the pupae and have them eclose (emerge as adults) on an "as needed" basis. It's worth bearing in mind, though, that, depending on the ambient temperature and humidity in your fridge, they will only be viable for about two weeks or so. I gram of house fly pupae yields about 50 flies, so if you buy 100 grams you will have enough to feed about 120 mantises three flies a day for two weeks in order to use them all up! If you have fewer mantises than that, you may want to try Mantis Place which is the only p[lace I know that sells them by the hundred instead of by weight.

There is a hard-to find URL on the net (if you Google &lt;raising house flies&gt; you'll get hundreds of entries on how to kill them!), which gives a method for mass production. I built the enclosure, got a great number of flies and then killed them by leaving the container in the sun where they died, en masse, from heat and dehydration. I'm going to try again, and if the system works all the way through, (there are some minor omissions in the first part) I'll share the method. It's worth remembering, though, that raising flies can be a bit stinky, and mothers tend not to like that.


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## kamakiri (Jan 20, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Interesting coloration... I like it!  Hmmm.... is that how you tell the boys from the girls in this species (pink)? :lol: Lol.... j/k of course.  Thanks for sharing the pic... I really couldn't imagine the coloration you guys were talking about before seeing the pic.


Hrm...might not be a coincidence that it's the girls which have pink! (j/k for all the serious people)

The color was a little less subtle on the other green morph with pink/red on the legs too.


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## yeatzee (Jan 22, 2009)

I took a couple of pictures of my nymphs ranging from L1 - L4 which I will post when my computer will allow me to.

Just thought I'd let you guys know I currently have another ooth starting to hatch, but this time I'm fully prepared  

Also my second FF culture I set up is starting to explode meaning my what seems to be dying culture will have a backup just in case.


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## yeatzee (Jan 22, 2009)

excuse the quality..... because I dont have a macro lens I had to resort to _ultra_ cropping.


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## kamakiri (Jan 25, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> excuse the quality..... because I dont have a macro lens I had to resort to _ultra_ cropping.


Thanks for sharing your _limbatas_.

You know, you don't need a macro lens to to macro...there's lots of other methods that will get you higher magnification:

Extension tubes

Diopters (front mounted filter thread)

Reversing ring (needs two lenses, one is mounted backwards in front of the one normally mounted to the camera)

I've even done cell phone macro with a 10x loupe.

What brand of SLR are you using?


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## yeatzee (Jan 25, 2009)

Im Fairly familiar with all those methods but the quality just isnt on par with an actual macro lens by anymeans.

Im using a Pentax K200d btw.

On another note, one of my ooths that I thought was forsure not fertile, just started hatching today. Im beggining to get over ran again  

Also I purchased a D. Hydei culture today.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 26, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Good idea...I bet that one hatches in the spring or late winter.


Well, this is an old thread, and I imagine that the first of everyone's fertile ooths have started hatching by now. My sole wild caught female, still alive, still pouncing in crickets, was the exception that proves the rule about wild-caught females being fertile, I realized. How can you tell that an ooth is infertile? It's not easy, but for someone of my experience it is possible. Also of course, it never hatches. I had left the two "experimental" ooths outside (remember the "photoperiod" silliness?) and when I cleaned my patio off last week, I sadly brought them in,. I didn't even bother putting the poor things in a pot. This turned out to be a mistake, because today, the "normal photoperiod" ooth HATCHED!  Tiny little babies scampering around and hopping about 100 feet every time I tried to catch one. Did you better-organized guys start them off on mels? They seem so tiny compared with some of my other F1s .

AND THAT ISN'T ALL!

I envy Rick his eagle eyed ability to spot ooths. I have presbyopia, astigmatism and a retinal hole in my left eye, so I'm happy if I can spot small dogs before I step on them. To my amazement, I found a well weathered S.limbata ooth on an adobe covered wall yesterday, and since I had no intention of ruining the point of my knife, came back with something more appropriate today and dug it off. Five feet away was an uprooted bush, long dead, that had been slowly moving along the alley with every wind. I went to move one of the branches out of the way, and, you've guessed it, found another ooth on a twig. This alley is only about 100 yards from where I caught momma, and it is heavily infested with crix, so it looks as though I have found an S. limbata breeding ground.

All thanks to the Mantis Goddess, Blessed be Her Name.


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## yeatzee (Jan 27, 2009)

Ha, sweet man!

After I got my fruit flies I've been feeding them melanogasters from L1-L4 so farr. Seems to work pretty good, but I'll have a Hydei culture tommorow so I'll tell you if my L1's can handle em.

I also had another unexpected ooth hatch two days ago folowed with another early yesterday. I've currently got three ooths hatching at the same time  

I just hope I dont exhaust my melanogasters. I've got 1 old culture, 1 new, and one extremely new..... *sigh*

As for the Hydei should I start a new culture as soon as I get the culture?


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## Katnapper (Jan 27, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Ha, sweet man!After I got my fruit flies I've been feeding them melanogasters from L1-L4 so farr. Seems to work pretty good, but I'll have a Hydei culture tommorow so I'll tell you if my L1's can handle em.
> 
> I also had another unexpected ooth hatch two days ago folowed with another early yesterday. I've currently got three ooths hatching at the same time
> 
> ...


With all those nymphs, I'd start 2.


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## yeatzee (Jan 27, 2009)

two new Hydei cultures + the one I've got comming in? Anyone know where i can source some of those 32 oz. containers like the ones on mantis place with the cloth top for cheap? I bought a pack of twelve with my melanogaster culture (it was a kit), and Im using them all currently.


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## kamakiri (Jan 27, 2009)

Unless yours are hatching really small, I'm certain that L1s will take _hydei_ flies and eat them without waste. Since my small cricket supply has been reduced, i've started using the _hydei_ for some of my L4s as supplemental food. I thought they would be too small, but some of the mantises have been eating them double-fisted or even one in each claw with one handled just by the mouth parts. But I really feel that these are just snack-size bites and the mantises seem to be really working to fill their guts.

I'd suggest mainly switching to _hydei_ anyway. Starting at least two would be a good idea if you still have more ooths to hatch. Unless you are keeping smaller varieties, I wouldn't even bother with melanos. I only have them for my Gambian SE Flower and Ant mantises which are way too small to take _hydei_ at first feeding, and only start by eating partial melanos.

I hear you about the reduced quality with other options, but there are lenses (typically primes) that come close. Not really worth it if using a kit-type lens. I shoot Canon and Sigma mounts...so I wouldn't know what the equivalents would be for you.

My update&gt;

Have a few L5s now...two females just molted yesterday, and some of the males molted in the past few days. Lost one of the pink/tan females to a mis-molt or possibly also a cricket bite (not the one that was temporarily white). There was a wound near the last segments.


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## MantidLord (Jan 27, 2009)

Hey guys. I skimmed through the thread (really long), and I'm just wondering: did your ooths hatch in the wild or were they hatched inside? Also, were the ooths layed earlier than wild ooths or at the same time? I ask this because (old topic) my I. oratorias layed eggcases early in the year and despite being in room temp (which they usually require about 90 degrees fahrenheit), they hatched before the new year (around September). I just caught an adult I. oratoria a few weeks ago, but she died (old age). So my main question is this: If the nymphs hatched at an "unnatural" time like mine, do you plan on keeping them all, or would letting them go send them to their doom? And please, I've noticed that despite being stuffed with food, and being raised in the same temperature as their parents, this generation is growing really slow compared to last generation. Could this be due to their "early birth"? I've also had a dozen more casualties of nymphs above L2, which I haven't had any last generation unless it was due to cannibalism. Any ways, please let me know if you notice anything different about these nymphs compared to the "others".

P.S. All of this is assuming that Stagmomantis spp. don't have overlapping generations. Like I know I. oratoria doesn't.


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## kamakiri (Jan 27, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> did your ooths hatch in the wild or were they hatched inside? Also, were the ooths layed earlier than wild ooths or at the same time?


 The other guys would need to chime in, but I think yeatzee and Arkanis hatched primarily inside in CA and it looks like PhilinYuma's was essentially outside in AZ.



> So my main question is this: If the nymphs hatched at an "unnatural" time like mine, do you plan on keeping them all, or would letting them go send them to their doom?


I got mine from Arkanis and I plan on keeping most of this generation for breeding a subsequent generation to release locally in spring. Well, also to try to establish a breeding population of the pink morphs.

And could it be that your _oratorias_ had a problem with inbreeding? Also suggest to PM joossa...very knowledgable about _oratorias_.

Also reminds me...yeatzee&gt; Do you think we could trade some males from your first batch? I have about a dozen males still but want some that aren't siblings. Also willing to buy...since you probably have way more than you need.


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## MantidLord (Jan 27, 2009)

Well, as I've learned from the forum, inbreeding shouldn't cause a such a problem. But seeing as the parents were all found around my house (as nymphs) and paired randomly. It's very possible that inbreeding occured. But the extent of the consequence is what I don't know. thanks for the reply.


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## yeatzee (Jan 27, 2009)

Mine were all hatched indoors. I had setup a few outside but I decided to take them in (still not sure why though  ). These just hatched.

Kamakiri, i have not attempted to sex most of my nymphs. I sexed the ones that got to L4, but all have died. (one got eaten after it molted to L4, one died for unknown causes, and the other wouldn't eat.) I'd rather not flood this thread so PM me (i doubt giving you a couple would be a problem).


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## yeatzee (Jan 29, 2009)

None have made it to L4 yet sadly......but i have three ooths still hatching  

Here are a few pics of my current favorite of the bunch.





















Male right?






Once again sorry for the quality, I had to ultra crop. I am getting my 100mm macro lens soon though!


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## kamakiri (Jan 30, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Male right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would have guessed female...because the last two segments look like they're getting 'pulled in'. Might be easier to tell from the underside. What instar is that? L3?

Glad to hear you're getting the macro lens! I'm sure you're going to have fun with it!

But your pictures to date are fine considering...viewing/cropping at 100% for the web isn't a problem. And the ones you posted look like what you intended is in focus.

My update&gt;

Four females are L5, one is L4 (the temporarily white one). The camo female has turned more pink/camo. I should take more pics before she molts L6...

The 14 or so males are mostly L4 but there are a couple of L3s and L5s. Also just noticed last night that no males are brown or camo from this group.(Duuuh!) Just varied greens and some red/pink highlights.

I should also note that a couple of males that were L4s housed communally fell victim to their roommates...everyone else was kept individually.


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## yeatzee (Jan 30, 2009)

Yeah _it's_ an L3. Im still not sure why non will molt to L4.

Yeah im siked, and can't wait to post more pictures when i get the lens. Im taking a photography class, so for what I like to do a macro lens is a must to keep the quality at its best.

Oh yeah, before I left to practise today i checked on my mantids and found an ooth that i removed from one of my sticks waiting to be super glued to a container hatching even though it was right side up. I was almost late to practice trying to find all the little buggers   

I've got way too many mantids atm, and to think....if I had already purchased fruit flies for my first ooth which ended up hatching almost a 100 nymphs, I would have been able to save em all, meaning I doubt I could handle it once i got to where i am now. I've got 4 ooths hatching right now :lol: 

Quick question though...does anybody know where i can get more 32oz containers with the cloth tops for cheap? Im using all twelve and one of my larger containers atm, whose nymphs i would like to transfer to 32 oz ones.


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## cloud jaguar (Jan 30, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Quick question though...does anybody know where i can get more 32oz containers with the cloth tops for cheap? Im using all twelve and one of my larger containers atm, whose nymphs i would like to transfer to 32 oz ones.


If you want to do it cheap the best way is to go to SMART AND FINAL, buy the lids, make a square hole in them with an x-acto blade, then glue gun a square of fine mesh on there. You can suitable mesh at most fabric stores. I find it works best to squeeze the lid down on top of a piece of marble or glass after gluing to flatten everything out nice and pretty.

Otherwise buy them from mantisplace.com for 30 cents each.


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## yeatzee (Feb 4, 2009)

Just had one molt to an L4 today! I just hope this little girl makes it, unlike her siblings that turned to L4 &lt;_&lt; .


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## kamakiri (Feb 6, 2009)

Two of my five girls molted to L6 overnight...still don't look sub adult to me but they're almost two inches long. I had to leave early for work today...so I didn't look too much.

Are adult _limbata_ females about 3" long?


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## PhilinYuma (Feb 6, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Two of my five girls molted to L6 overnight...still don't look sub adult to me but they're almost two inches long. I had to leave early for work today...so I didn't look too much.Are adult _limbata_ females about 3" long?


Only in bad light! Much closer to 2" (at least in the wild)!


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## yeatzee (Feb 6, 2009)

Some of my females were 3+ inches (measured)....others not so much  (All were caught in my backyard)

As seen in this pic I took a little while ago:


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## kamakiri (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks guys, I guess I will find out if I am under feeding by the size of my girls! Interesting about the size difference...thanks for the pic!

One more turned L6 last night.

But my best guess is that L8 is adult?

Weirdest thing is that all the boys are still green. Varying shades at least... And some with the red dot.


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## cloud jaguar (Feb 7, 2009)

Color Update:

1. camo peach/ dark brown

4. camo brown

1. black or very dark

1. camo grey

1. solid grey

1. cream colored one

15. green ones


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## yeatzee (Feb 8, 2009)

Hey guys!

Well i've been gone the past couple of days, and because of this I lost many L3's to my L4's.

I thought I had enough Hydei in there but apparently not!

I've got 5 L4's, the rest L1's and L3's. I seriously need to segregate my L4's from the others, but currently I'm all out of space. Since im 100% broke, my mom said if I get an A on my math test tommorow she'll buy me some of the 32 oz. containers from mantisplace, lol.

Color wise I have about 1/2 green 1/2 tan with a few camo'd. I lost my only pink one to a mis-molt :angry: 

Please take some pics of them and post em Arkanis and Kamakiri!


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## kamakiri (Feb 8, 2009)

As requested...sorry to hear about your challenges...

pink female L5:






less white or white/camo:






green male L6






pink camo female L6






4th female molted to L6 - the 'mint' green one.


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## Peter Clausen (Feb 9, 2009)

My first captive-laid ootheca from wild caught S. limbata just hatched yesterday. I brought the oothecae in from the outdoors about a month ago. In the morning I'd placed them near the heat lamp of a reptile cage and they began a few hours later. It appears that a wild collected M. religiosa ootheca also hatched at the same time in the same container, so I've got a bungled set of nymphs.


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## Katnapper (Feb 9, 2009)

Beautiful range of colors, Kamakiri! Thanks for posting the photos.  

Good luck, Peter, with your "bungled set of nymphs!"  :lol:


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## cloud jaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

Wow, Kamakiri - those are pretty pink alright! Nice. Ours which are pink have much brown camo on them.

~Arkanis


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## kamakiri (Feb 9, 2009)

Peter&gt; Sorry to hear about your 'mixed nuts'! I'm sure they're going to be fun to separate :lol:  

Just glad this forum gets me off my butt and reminds me to post pictures once in a while...or I'd never get around to uploading to flickr! Still haven't done the pics from our last vacation :angry: 

The one in the last picture is really more camo than she appears in that pic. The thorax and dark markings are better visible from above. Also should have taken a pic of the green one with red legs.

yeatzee&gt; It's my feeling that _limbata_ need to be separated and housed individually in the L3 or L4 range or you will probably suffer more losses. I communally housed a few males just to test this, and none survived past L4. Right now I have most of them in 24 oz. tubs. Males will probably stay in those and the females might move into the 32 oz. containers once they look like they're ready to molt again.


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## yeatzee (Feb 9, 2009)

Well good news....I got a 100% on my math test so I've got 11 32oz. containers coming in  I've got most of my L4's in one of my large adult cages due to lack of space currently, so i hope they come in decently fast.

The plan was to seperate them earlier but i used to many 32 oz. containers for the fruit fly cultures.

I've got alot of L4's curerntly, and man they seem alot smaller than your L5's.....is the change from L4-L5 a big size growth?

So farr I havent had any mis molts lately. I had one a little awhile ago (she lost use of both her back legs)...... ha, I found her holding 2 1/2 fruit flies in her claws  She's a beast!


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## kamakiri (Feb 10, 2009)

Congrats on the math test! The L6 females are about 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" or so, measuring when 'flattened' under intense light. Haven't measured the L5's, but I think the females are just over 1" and the L5 males a little under or about 1". Maybe they just look bigger in the pics?

And yeah, the mis-molts are a pain. I have one male who is a little twisted. Hunts okay, but if you look at him head-on...the front legs are pointed a little to the side, and the thorax is twisted relative to the abdomen. Should all be fixed this week.


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## yeatzee (Feb 22, 2009)

Woot! Just got my first L5 today.... a nice healthy tan female. The fruit flies are too small for her though, so what do you feed your L5's?

Will post pics when I get a chance.


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## kamakiri (Feb 22, 2009)

My update&gt;

Females: 2 L7 and 3 L6

Males: 5 L7 and 7 L6

L7 does appear to be sub-adult judging by the relative size of the wing buds.

I have some L3s on order.


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## kamakiri (Feb 22, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Woot! Just got my first L5 today.... a nice healthy tan female. The fruit flies are too small for her though, so what do you feed your L5's?Will post pics when I get a chance.


Congrats! For a female L5, I think houseflies or 1/4" to 3/8" crickets would do...maybe small mealworms, since I know you hate crix.


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## PhilinYuma (Feb 22, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Congrats! For a female L5, I think houseflies or 1/4" to 3/8" crickets would do...maybe small mealworms, since I know you hate crix.


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## PhilinYuma (Feb 23, 2009)

Meanwhile, back to the title of this thread!  

Two weeks ago, I searched the walls around my "secret limbata breeding ground" and found some ooths, two of which were unzipped from 2007 (any earlier and they would have been painted over, how's that for cryptic coloration?). I put them in a pot at room temperature, and the first one hatched two hours ago. I've learned my lesson with this species. I still have unhatched captive ooths from Peter and Arkanis, as well as a bunch from my original female, who is still looking hale and hearty and had the pleasure (?) of seeing her offspring from the only ooth of hers that I wintered outside under normal conditions. This is a beautiful "classic" mantis and I intend to continue keeping it for a few years, but in future, I shall overwinter the ooths outside.


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## yeatzee (Feb 23, 2009)

I have grown more and more fawned (sp?) of this species also. I hope, too, to keep em for as long as possible.

Ha, to think how this all started with a lone female sub adult I found....  I fear it will progress to quite a hobby for me...one which rise to the top of my list, causing my poor wallet to be empty much more than usual.

Oh Well :lol: 

Edit: A male just molted to L5.

I have also resorted to hand feeding my L5 female the fruit flies until more turn L5, and I can justify buying some pupae.


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## cloud jaguar (Feb 24, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> my original female, who is still looking hale and hearty and had the pleasure (?) of seeing her offspring from the only ooth of hers that I wintered outside under normal conditions.


Phil, it would appear that among those of us keeping S. Limbatas, your ooth kept outside is the first to hatch under normal outdoor conditions. Indeed spring must come early to Arizona! Or did you bring it inside to incubate after wintereing it outside?

Inspired by your post I just checked our outside ooths and none have yet hatched. Probably soon though so I will look regularly at them.

~Arkanis


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## yeatzee (Feb 24, 2009)

Two more ooths hatched today....the last of em. All laid by my females have hatched. I put one ooth that I witnessed having its first nymph hatch outside. Weather has been nice, but they really don't have a chance.

I also got several L5's today but all mis-molted except one. That one is now dead because i accidently killed it :angry: 

Hope the rest do ok


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## PhilinYuma (Feb 24, 2009)

Arkanis said:


> Phil, it would appear that among those of us keeping S. Limbatas, your ooth kept outside is the first to hatch under normal outdoor conditions. Indeed spring must come early to Arizona! Or did you bring it inside to incubate after wintereing it outside? Inspired by your post I just checked our outside ooths and none have yet hatched. Probably soon though so I will look regularly at them.
> 
> ~Arkanis


Your second guess was correct. The first ooth was from a wild specimen, laid in captivity. It hatched within a few days of being brought indoors. The second was a wild ooth which hatched indoors after ten days indoors, a much more successful hatch than the first. The nymphs, though tiny (of course  ) appear to be a little larger than their predecessors and are much more lively.

But that doesn't tell us about ooths actually hatched outdoors. Our current highs here are about 85F, but the low tonight will be only 59F. I shall take one ooth out (to its great confusion, no doubt) and let it hatch outdoors. It will be interesting to see when that occurs.


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## kamakiri (Mar 8, 2009)

Finally have my first adult! Well, she's still pumping up the wings, but everything seems normal so far and she's out of the old exo, hanging 'face up'.  

I didn't want to disturb her with the flash...so I'll post pictures later. Prior to the molt she was pink/camo and the wing buds were yellow (for the last couple of days).


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## cloud jaguar (Mar 8, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Finally have my first adult! Well, she's still pumping up the wings, but everything seems normal so far and she's out of the old exo, hanging 'face up'.  I didn't want to disturb her with the flash...so I'll post pictures later. Prior to the molt she was pink/camo and the wing buds were yellow (for the last couple of days).


Nice! I best be on the lookout for swollen wing buds!

Interested to know what the pink camo adult color morph is!

~Arkanis


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## kamakiri (Mar 9, 2009)

Pre-molt:












Finally got her wings!


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## cloud jaguar (Mar 9, 2009)

nice one!


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## yeatzee (Mar 19, 2009)

Just thought I'd post one of my smaller girls, since i havent posted here in a little while.


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## kamakiri (Mar 19, 2009)

Cool. So I guess you got that macro lens?


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## yeatzee (Mar 20, 2009)

Just got it yesterday


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## Katnapper (Mar 20, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Just got it yesterday


Yaaay!! Congrats!  So...... you know we will all be expecting nice new pics now, right?!! :lol:


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## yeatzee (Mar 20, 2009)

yea, yea


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## kamakiri (Mar 23, 2009)

One of the batch I got from Paul:


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## kamakiri (Mar 30, 2009)

I finally have a couple of my females mated. So with any luck Vanessa and Marge are fertilized. Lost a couple of males as a result - Mr. Roast Beef, and Gus.

Mr. Chicken hung on for dear life for two days, even though mating was done in about 3 hours. I helped him escape with a squeeze of his thorax and he let go.

Fred has done the opposite (afaik) mounted Cherisse for over 24 hours, but doubt they have coupled.

Barbie died still subadult (L7)...I think the barfing episode did her in, despite the apparent recovery.  

Most of the 'new' batch are L5 for now.


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## Katnapper (Mar 30, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> I finally have a couple of my females mated. So with any luck Vanessa and Marge are fertilized. Lost a couple of males as a result - Mr. Roast Beef, and Gus. Mr. Chicken hung on for dear life for two days, even though mating was done in about 3 hours. I helped him escape with a squeeze of his thorax and he let go.
> 
> Fred has done the opposite (afaik) mounted Cherisse for over 24 hours, but doubt they have coupled.
> 
> ...


Love your names, Kamakiri!


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## kamakiri (Mar 31, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Love your names, Kamakiri!


  Glad someone does!

...Too bad Cherisse ate Fred last night  He was still trying to connect when I went to bed, so I thought I'd just leave him.

Mr. Spam is scheduled for a date next!


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## cloud jaguar (Mar 31, 2009)

Kamakiri, we have one adult pink female and an adult green male - how long should we mate after they become adults before we mate them?

Also, how is the krinkle wing count coming? Any clearer idea on the cause of this - appears about 1/2 of our male S. Limbatas have this. My wife thinks that it may be from an all cricket diet. If this is true it would be odd since we feed our crix oats, dogfood, and leafy greens.

~arkanis


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## kamakiri (Mar 31, 2009)

Arkanis said:


> Kamakiri, we have one adult pink female and an adult green male - how long should we mate after they become adults before we mate them?Also, how is the krinkle wing count coming? Any clearer idea on the cause of this - appears about 1/2 of our male S. Limbatas have this. My wife thinks that it may be from an all cricket diet. If this is true it would be odd since we feed our crix oats, dogfood, and leafy greens.
> 
> ~arkanis


10 days minimum so far for the 'successful' males. Two weeks would probably be safe, but at three weeks, they seem to mount quicker.

For the krinkle wings, the count is 6 and 6, one of the L7 males died...so that's it. I am now concerned that the problem is genetic since you are having the same problem too. Can't rule out the crix diet, as that is my main feed too. How many males do you have? Thanks for chiming in on this. Makes me less worried that it's just me!

EDIT:

I must be having accounting problems...too many male _limbata_!

Okay, it's supposed to be 6 normal and 7 krinkle.

1 krinkle eaten

2 normal eaten

still have 4 normal and 6 krinkle adults

1 L7 died


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## kamakiri (Mar 31, 2009)

Marge:






Gus:











Marge and poor Gus...warning, kinda gross:

*Clicky / Warning!*

Cherisse and Fred:


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## Katnapper (Mar 31, 2009)

Neither Fred or Gus had very good luck with the girls, did they? :mellow:


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## kamakiri (Mar 31, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Neither Fred or Gus had very good luck with the girls, did they? :mellow:


Well, Gus had better luck  at least he connected! I believe Fred succumbed to a reach-around move   

EDIT:

And Fred has been really unlucky. His head and about 1/4" of thorax are still alive or at least the antennae that waved are  Sometimes this hobby is a little gross.


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## Katnapper (Apr 1, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Well, Gus had better luck  at least he connected! I believe Fred succumbed to a reach-around move   EDIT:
> 
> And Fred has been really unlucky. His head and about 1/4" of thorax are still alive or at least the antennae that waved are  Sometimes this hobby is a little gross.


Yes, if it's going to happen I much prefer finding just a pile of wings... (like I did this morning,  An unlucky T. sinensis bachelor that had given it his all, truly!).


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## kamakiri (Apr 1, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Yes, if it's going to happen I much prefer finding just a pile of wings... (like I did this morning,  An unlucky T. sinensis bachelor that had given it his all, truly!).


 :lol: Yeah, waste aside...I prefer finding just the wings!


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## kamakiri (Apr 9, 2009)

Female L5 from my second batch Mandy:







Thought it was interesting she seems to have blue-green eyes.


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## yeatzee (Apr 10, 2009)

Man you take good pictures! Mine will never stay still enough for me to focus properly!

I just checked my smaller nymphs and i only have 1 male  

(quick question: What F-stop/shutter speed did you use for the above picture?


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## kamakiri (Apr 10, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Man you take good pictures! Mine will never stay still enough for me to focus properly!I just checked my smaller nymphs and i only have 1 male
> 
> (quick question: What F-stop/shutter speed did you use for the above picture?


Thanks! That's always nice to hear  

Exif data for that shot:

Exposure:	0.005 sec (1/200)

Aperture:	f/9.0

Focal Length:	100 mm

ISO Speed:	400

For flash/macro pictures, I usually shoot at the max synch speed and in the f/8 to f/16 range. Most of my macro is handheld, focusing is done manually (AF off) and lean to get focus and hit the shutter when what I want is in focus.

You probably know of this guy, but if you want serious macro inspiration see Lord V's work on flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lordv/

I hope you have that male separated! How many total do you have left?


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## yeatzee (Apr 10, 2009)

Wow, almost the exact settings I use for the most part.

Just got to work on my steadiness I guess


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## yeatzee (Apr 13, 2009)

Here's my most beastly Limbata eating a wasp after 4 crickets and an untold amount of fruit flies  






(sorry for the ###### picture  )


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## kamakiri (Apr 13, 2009)

Wasps still make me nervous! Did you catch it first and feed it live?


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## yeatzee (Apr 13, 2009)

yeah, i caught it and tossed it into the freezer for a couple minutes to slow it down temporarily and than gave it to my mantid.

lol, she is still finishing the wasp as i type


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## yeatzee (May 8, 2009)

Holy ######!

Well I woke up to my dread......the only male I have on the floor dead!

Than I see my largest Female who is in the middle of molting to adult, but according to my records she should be molting to sub-adult! She is ridiculously tiny! This is insane! I'll post pictures compared to a ruler when I get a chance.


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## kamakiri (May 9, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Holy ######!Well I woke up to my dread......the only male I have on the floor dead!
> 
> Than I see my largest Female who is in the middle of molting to adult, but according to my records she should be molting to sub-adult! She is ridiculously tiny! This is insane! I'll post pictures compared to a ruler when I get a chance.


Eesh. :huh: Sorry to hear.  

My second batch yeilded two more adult males and three females. Mandy in the above picture has yellow wings and saddle. Quite striking, but I'm sure not that uncommon. I'll probably try mating some of the new ones in the next week or so.


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## yeatzee (May 9, 2009)

Me to! There is no hope in finding any wild adult males that will be alive by the time my youngest females turn adult too, as I just found an L1 nymph in my backyard and my youngest female is L4. So much for keeping this species going!


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## yeatzee (May 13, 2009)

On another note my one adult female is pink, and I just found my third L1 nymph in my backyard feasting themselves on an assortment of nymph grasshoppers, small flies, aphids, etc. I can't wait until they get big!


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