# This newbie is really impressed with Mantid mentality



## markdneck (Jun 18, 2007)

I have a couple cats and perhaps I should have expected a Mantid, same sort of predator as a cat I guess, to exhibit similar hunting characteristics but cats are smart mammals. How big can a Mantid cortex be!? My Mantid, JC (Jackie Chan) acts much the same as the cats. When I put her into a new enclosure, I have two and trade off during cleaning, she just like a cat examines every inch of the new enclosure. I am not being anthropomorphic, she is very clearly checking it out and likely memorizing the geometry for future hunting purposes?

JC also seems to remember where she made her last catch and returns to that spot and today I watched the way she caught and ate a large cricket. Small crickets she just grabs but this grasshopper size cricket had very strong hind legs and though it was if not as long as JC, it was probably heavier and very strong with large muscles in those jumping legs. To make a meal of the cricket JC hung from the roof of her enclosure, completely unlike the way she "bulrushes" small crickets. She grabbed the cricket and lifted it off the ground thereby neutralizing the leg muscles. She just gobbled it up from the head first. I can't believe she ate the whole thing. Where does she put it. She had two small crickets earlier today!

What a neat pet! Gruesome but fascinating! Thanks to all here for the valuable info you have shared with me.


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## athicks (Jun 18, 2007)

sorry, this post is a repeat of the next one.


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## athicks (Jun 18, 2007)

Mine always attack the head first too! I think it must be instinct to get rid of the head or maybe just because the prey moves it's head around so much? But, yeah it seems that they are very smart, I guess they don't have any cortex space devoted to language, decision space or huge digestive systems. I mean, how detailed are their memories even, they may be able to have a lot of very lightly detailed memories.

PS good name! (JC)


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## OGIGA (Jun 18, 2007)

Mine gets the head first most of the time, but they start from anywhere that's convenient. I recently noticed that they have been starting from the thorax when I feed them roaches from outside.


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## Rick (Jun 19, 2007)

You're looking into it too much. I think you're seeing what you want to see. Mantids and higher life forms like cats are nothing alike.


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## markdneck (Jun 19, 2007)

Sure we mammals have larger cerebrums and are more dependant on learning, less on instinct but aren't you being a bit "order-centric" to say that the two predators are nothing alike? They both stalk, no? They both ambush right? Smaller cat species and Mantids can both be predator and at the same time can be hunted by larger animals; eagles hunt small wild cats and bats prey on Mantids so both exhibit offensive and defensive behavior at the same time.

There does seem to be something like intelligence, whatever that is (like "love", hard to define what intelligence really is!) but it does seem to exist in other inverts like cephalopods like octopus and squids and I think I see effectively discretionary behavior on the part of a hunting Mantid. What else explains why they would so carefully examine a new habitat or take different prey in a different manner? Don't ants who practice agriculture and hunting wasps like tarantula hawks and bees who communicate the direction of new pollen finds to their co-workers act "intelligently"? Well, so do Mantids! I like to think so anyway.


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## ThorEH (Jun 19, 2007)

You're confusing intelligence with inherited instincts...


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## Asa (Jun 19, 2007)

They attack the head, because with the neck off it is easier to get to the more filling organs. It is a lower life form that does not know what or why it does what it does.


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## Orin (Jun 19, 2007)

> You're looking into it too much. I think you're seeing what you want to see. Mantids and higher life forms like cats are nothing alike.


 If you said birds or monkeys or something reasonable your point would be better taken but it's hard to make a case for a cat being smarter than a mantis, both run almost entirely on instinct.


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## markdneck (Jun 19, 2007)

"The line which demarcates the instinct of the brute creation from the boasted reason of man, is, beyond doubt, of the most shadowy and unsatisfactory character--a boundary line far more difficult to settle than even the North-Eastern or the Oregon. The question whether the lower animals do or do not reason, will possibly never be decided--certainly never in our present condition of knowledge. While the self-love and arrogance of man will persist in denying the reflective power to beasts, because the granting it seems to derogate from his own vaunted supremacy, he yet perpetually finds himself involved in the paradox of decrying instinct as an inferior faculty, while he is forced to admit its infinite superiority, in a thousand cases, over the very reason which he claims exclusively as his own. Instinct, so far from being an inferior reason, is perhaps the most exalted intellect of all. It will appear to the true philosopher, as the divine mind itself acting immediately upon its creatures."

So if a spider designs a web that fits the local trees and plants, is configured best for the available prey and faces the prevailing breeze just right ... that is "instinct" yet if a human engineer, if he could do as well, did the same ... that is IQ? Figuring and planning whether Mantid or cat or person are the same. We just talk about it better!


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## Asa (Jun 19, 2007)

> > You're looking into it too much. I think you're seeing what you want to see. Mantids and higher life forms like cats are nothing alike.
> 
> 
> If you said birds or monkeys or something reasonable your point would be better taken but it's hard to make a case for a cat being smarter than a mantis, both run almost entirely on instinct.


You can teach a cat tricks, can't you? Not as easily as a dog, as cats are really, according to tests, smarter. A cat does deviate from its natural behaviour. If you gave it cat food its entire life, then gave it a rat, and it ate it with no trouble, that is instinct. A better example would be a dog.


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## jmac27 (Jun 19, 2007)

Any predatory animal will share some similarities in the way it hunts with other animals, however, a cat's brain is much more advanced and complex than a mantid. A mantid is no higher than any other insect; they're all pretty much preprogrammed organic robots. The human brain naturally searches for patterns in things and collates gathered information. Every time you see or experience something your brain draws on vast stores of information collected throughout your life and instantly connects memories with it. I.e., when you saw the mantid, your brain connected memories of a cat with it which allowed you to see these patterns.

And what you said about a human engineer.. If you really think about it, we're no different than animals. Intelligence is a natural adaptation we've gained through evolution. Our complex brain gives us the illusion that we're set apart from animals and that we don't feed off of instinct like animals, but we do. A human engineer planning the construction of a building is no different than a spider planning to spin a web. Every building you see is as natural as a foxes den in the woods. We change the environment to support our survival as a species. Our intelligence allows us to change it in more complex ways. Any environmentalist would disagree with me here, but it's a philosophy I like.


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## Asa (Jun 19, 2007)

> Any predatory animal will share some similarities in the way it hunts with other animals, however, a cat's brain is much more advanced and complex than a mantid. A mantid is no higher than any other insect; they're all pretty much preprogrammed organic robots. The human brain naturally searches for patterns in things and collates gathered information. Every time you see or experience something your brain draws on vast stores of information collected throughout your life and instantly connects memories with it. I.e., when you saw the mantid, your brain connected memories of a cat with it which allowed you to see these patterns.And what you said about a human engineer.. If you really think about it, we're no different than animals. Intelligence is a natural adaptation we've gained through evolution. Our complex brain gives us the illusion that we're set apart from animals and that we don't feed off of instinct like animals, but we do. A human engineer planning the construction of a building is no different than a spider planning to spin a web. Every building you see is as natural as a foxes den in the woods. We change the environment to support our survival as a species. Our intelligence allows us to change it in more complex ways. Any environmentalist would disagree with me here, but it's a philosophy I like.


Of course, a human engineer is taught 'how' to build a building, by someone who 'discovered' 'how'. Something like a spider, did not learn this. And as my faith requires, I believe that we are different than animals because we have souls. Any atheist would disagree with me here, but it's a philosophy I like.


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## markdneck (Jun 19, 2007)

Mantid behavior to the existence of God ... Proves people into this kind of stuff are smarter than the average bear, I mean average bug!


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## Asa (Jun 19, 2007)

Well, some of us :lol: .


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## jmac27 (Jun 19, 2007)

> Well, some of us :lol: .


No need to get offensive here, they're just ideas. I don't really like beliefs because when you tell someone who believes something anything different from what they believe they get angry. I'm no atheist either. I'm an agnostic and I don't really feel you can know anything for certain. I don't like to assume that God or anything of the such does exist, yet I also don't like to assume that it doesn't exist. I am a philosopher. I like ideas because you can change them. I like to look at all aspects of everything from every angle.


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## markdneck (Jun 19, 2007)

But you didn't figure out this "faith" of yours that you mentioned. You didn't choose it, right? You believe it because your parents programmed you to believe it. Isn't that more like a mantitid's or spider's instinct than about anything? Had your parents been Mayans you would believe in a Jaguar God, if they were Hindu you would believe in Shiva and that the world was created on the back of a giant turtle.

Humans do have original thinkers, the Einsteins and Newtons with 200+_ IQs. the rest of us are programmed about the way Mantids are programmed.

Enough Philosophy!!!


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## jmac27 (Jun 19, 2007)

I don't want to get an into an argument over this. Let's stick to discussing mantids. Speaking of which, I am very excited because my budwings and wide arms arrive today.


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## Asa (Jun 19, 2007)

> > Well' date=' some of us :lol: .[/quote']No need to get offensive here, they're just ideas. I don't really like beliefs because when you tell someone who believes something anything different from what they believe they get angry. I'm no atheist either. I'm an agnostic and I don't really feel you can know anything for certain. I don't like to assume that God or anything of the such does exist, yet I also don't like to assume that it doesn't exist. I am a philosopher. I like ideas because you can change them. I like to look at all aspects of everything from every angle.
> 
> 
> Oh, sorry if you thought I was referring to you. No, I certainly respect your ideas theories and beliefs. It was just a passing joke referring to no one, except perhaps myself. I was not being offensive at all. No hard feelings. If anyone contradicts my belief, I believe in calmly explaining to them why I think it is. However I do believe that some beliefs are certain and unchanging. Sorry if misunderstood.
> ...


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## jenner59 (Jun 19, 2007)

_I_ think this is _great _discussion.

I'll give you a friendly challenge on your theories on absolutes, jmac. I'll trade your 100 dollar bill for my ten dollar bill. I don't beleive in absolutes either.

:wink:


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## jmac27 (Jun 19, 2007)

> _I_ think this is _great _discussion.I'll give you a friendly challenge on your theories on absolutes, jmac. I'll trade your 100 dollar bill for my ten dollar bill. I don't beleive in absolutes either.
> 
> :wink:


I love talking philosophy. Throw an e-mail my way any time. [email protected]


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## Asa (Jun 19, 2007)

> I don't want to get an into an argument over this. Let's stick to discussing mantids. Speaking of which, I am very excited because my budwings and wide arms arrive today.


Cool, how many did you get?


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## OGIGA (Jun 19, 2007)

> _I_ think this is _great _discussion.


Yes, great discussion. Perhaps in the wrong thread though. Hehe, why don't we have a mod move some posts to a thread for talking about philosophical things?


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## jenner59 (Jun 19, 2007)

I agree - jmac aand I are continuing privately.

I just thought it was great that these amazing little creatures were bringing up questions about life.


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## Rick (Jun 19, 2007)

Do not turn this into a religious debate/discussion.

But going back to the first page on cats and mantids. Cats are somewhat intelligent. I simply do not believe mantids are in any way intelligent.


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## athicks (Jun 19, 2007)

Well it depends what you define "intelligence" as right?

Almost all our "vital functions" are controlled by our brainstem and cerebellum. And it is big because humans are big. Mantids could have all the control over their limbs that we have in a much smaller package.

But probably "intelligence" refers to memory and innate learned differences not related to their genetic lineage. (I say probably because I am not trying to fully define intelligence.)

To that extent what makes a mantid intelligent? People in this forum have talked about mantids waving their arms to be picked up, about scouting out cages and avoidence behavior to harmful stimuli. A mantid may be intelligent and yet be unable to do anything with it's intelligence. Mantids can't talk, and I am sure that noone knows exactly what mantids are 'thinking' when they wave back and forth in different situations.

It's hard to classify or identify intelligence, especially if it is not the human kind.


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## jmac27 (Jun 20, 2007)

> > I don't want to get an into an argument over this. Let's stick to discussing mantids. Speaking of which, I am very excited because my budwings and wide arms arrive today.
> 
> 
> Cool, how many did you get?


I ordered six of each but I ended up with eight widearms and seven budwings. They were all very healthy and well fed. It felt like Christmas opening that package. The budwings even successfully molted while in transit! It's funny to watch how the little guys act. One of them was running and even jumping all over the place. He gave me trouble while I was trying to separate them. Others were calm and cooperative. I love all of them. They're so cute.  It's been a long time since I've seen a mantis besides the local species.


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## Asa (Jun 20, 2007)

> > > I don't want to get an into an argument over this. Let's stick to discussing mantids. Speaking of which, I am very excited because my budwings and wide arms arrive today.
> >
> >
> > Cool, how many did you get?
> ...


I felt the same way when my Giant Asians and Idolomantis arrived. Especially the Idolomantis  .


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## xenuwantsyou (Jun 20, 2007)

I think on a cosmetic level they are quite similar. They stalk their prey, they both clean themselves almost religiously, and they both are incredibly fast at certain times. However, I don't think it's quite the same as far as intelligence goes, and we've had this debate before. For example, my cat has the capacity to be the most arrogant creature I've ever known. My mantids have the capcity to eat and procreate. Two entirely different levels of thought there.


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## Butterfly (Jun 20, 2007)

Wow I take a day off and I miss a major debate of Mantis Intellignece and then it turned into belief's. I gotta say I love this forum lol!

Glad to her Jackie Chan is an approved Mantid name too lol. I just needed to differentiate a few of them and Mark got Jackie when he asked for a local Mantid person with a few for sale. . Theres also Bruce Lee from the same ooth lol.


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