# vegan alternative for mantises?



## kayimbo

Hi. I found a mantis on a trash can at a gas station. Then a second mantis was hanging out on my door frame! now i love mantises.

what essential vitamins and nutrients are food bugs made out of? I want to try and make sort of extruded soy protein gelatin food for the mantises. I'm thinking if i can find something nutritious for them, i can make it into a jelly and make a little robot that wobbles around like an insect. cover the robot in vegan mantis food.

mantis see's robot wiggling around and starts eating it. eats all the good nutrient jelly, robot parts are left over for another feeding.

Any input on specific nutrients in insect bodies that mantis needs would be appreciated.


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## jrh3

HAHA LOL. REALLY? Whats wrong with them eating the natural food them have been eating and was born to eat throughout history? What if you were locked in a room and fed a multivitiman everyday and a glass of water?.


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## Mime454

Why do you feel the need to impose your morals on an insect? Feed it what nature intended or just let it go. Plus mantids won't eat prey unless it is moving.


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## kayimbo

wow this mantis forum is hopping!

since i have a male and female, i'm going to see if i can't breed my mantises to be vegans. i figure a bunch will die  

uhm so i have no clue what kind of nutrients are found in insect meat that might not be available in plant form. i figure it can't be TOO specific because different species of mantis must have very different ideal prey!?!? does that make sense? If i can't find specific info, i think i'll do pretty much what the guy above recommended and try and just like, mix every random plant ###### together with the protein stuff and hope there isn't some mantis version of b12 deficiency.


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## Mime454

kayimbo said:


> since i have a male and female, i'm going to see if i can't breed my mantises to be vegans. i figure a bunch will die


You said that you like mantids, but it's better for your mantis prisoners to die than for the bugs that they normally eat to die? What an odd morality. Trust me, you're going to have a near 100% death rate. You can't breed mantids to be vegans, Evolution has already spent millions of years ensuring that they're carnivores. And they're just going to starve to death unless you can install some kind of biodegradable motor to attract their attention.


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## jrh3

Your going to starve them to death, and they will die, what do you think the large raptors are for..... Holding jelly beans.....NO.


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## Mime454

jrh3 said:


> Your going to starve them to death, and they will die, what do you think the large raptors are for..... Holding jelly beans.....NO.


Gnawing on Celerey.


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## patrickfraser

I'd really like to see this introduction. It's gotta be fascinating. :lol:


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## kayimbo

ah i dunno. genetics can adapt pretty quickly. you know the whole human cow milk example. if crickets can live on just some water and 1 or 2 types of food, their requirements for nutritional diversity must not be very high. I'm hoping that extends to most insects in general?!?!?

either way, i'll make my paste of whatever i can figure out, and if i can get these two to breed, see how many of the nymphs live from the paste ######.

Any input on what types of food should go into their food, or how to make a robot small enough a nymph would be attracted to it would be welcome.


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## agent A

kayimbo said:


> ah i dunno. genetics can adapt pretty quickly. you know the whole human cow milk example. if crickets can live on just some water and 1 or 2 types of food, their requirements for nutritional diversity must not be very high.


crickets are NOT mantises!!! in the wild a cricket is an oppurtunistic scavengar/omnivore/herbivore thing

they do not survive long term on a small range of food and the only way to keep them alive for more than a few weeks is to give them a huge variety of things such as crackers, fish flakes, apple, orange, sweet potato, carrot, celery, strawberry, and a whole bunch of other ###### they can digest

just because something is a feeder insect doesnt mean it's requirements r any less than that of another insect and that they should be treated any worse than another insect

they r still insects and u only wanna feed healthy stuff to your insectivores


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## Mime454

kayimbo said:


> Any input on what types of food should go into their food, or *how to make a robot small enough a nymph would be attracted to it* would be welcome.


We're obviously being trolled, guys.


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## jrh3

This noob is Coo Coo.


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## kayimbo

nah not a troll. just got alot of free time and have some roommates who are really into building robots. i'm thinking just have the food gel stuff kind of food dye painted to look like a tiny insect, and then have a motor pull it along on like the tiniest fishing line i can find or something.

for the food i have to do alot of reading about what insects are made of. off the top of my head i'm thinking like the extruded soy protein or whatever, mixed with ???


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## Mime454

I can't take this thread seriously anymore. Hopefully someone else will be able to help you, if it's even possible. I know that some mantids like honey, but you might as well feed them poison to make their death less prolonged.


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## massaman

or just get out of the hobby and do something else like trying this on spiders or scorpions or something else or do something like underwater basket weaving or something.


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## brancsikia339

This will never work. Very bad idea. Your mantids are going to die if you attempt this, so please don't. These innocent creatures are going to have a horrible prolonged death if you don't feed them live food. SOY PROTEIN?!!? FOR A LIVE *MEAT EATING *INSECT?!?! They're not humans, and they're certainly not crickets. My warning: PLEASE DON'T TRY THIS. If you're not going to feed them live, let them go. That's what I told my friend when he found one.


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## massaman

Or form a metal band and save the moss.


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## Orin

Sorry our members are more opinionated than friendly but I guess that's why most people like to hang out here (if everybody agrees the conversation becomes dull).



kayimbo said:


> nah not a troll. just got alot of free time and have some roommates who are really into building robots. i'm thinking just have the food gel stuff kind of food dye painted to look like a tiny insect, and then have a motor pull it along on like the tiniest fishing line i can find or something.
> 
> for the food i have to do alot of reading about what insects are made of. off the top of my head i'm thinking like the extruded soy protein or whatever, mixed with ???


Obviously you could formulate a synthetic diet though the time and effort would be extensive. Many mantids eat prey that are little more than fat (many moths) so you might find the more extras you add the worse off the creatures are. You'd really need to start off with a very easy species to have any chance of success and you'd have to understand it's going to take more effort than you are guessing.


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## agent A

Orin said:


> Sorry our members are more opinionated than friendly but I guess that's why most people like to hang out here (if everybody agrees the conversation becomes dull).
> 
> Obviously you could formulate a synthetic diet though the time and effort would be extensive. Many mantids eat prey that are little more than fat (many moths) so you might find the more extras you add the worse off the creatures are. You'd really need to start off with a very easy species to have any chance of success and you'd have to understand it's going to take more effort than you are guessing.


like pseudocreobotra or creobroter!! they r so prolific u can get enough experimental individuals from just a few adults!!


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## sueb4653

why experiment with a live feeling animal insect

go play with some non feeling object geesh


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## Norlin

I think the hard part of coming up with a successful diet would be replicating their need for consuming chitin in order to develop their own exoskeleton on molts?


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## frogparty

In addition to the chitin, for which there is NO veggie equivalent, youd need a saturated fat that would stay solid at room temp, unlike most veggie fats that are liquid at room temp. You need protein, and you need micro and macronutrients.

In my opinion... this will not work. Buuilding a mini robot? NO! You couldnt build one small enough to encourage small nymphs to feed.


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## Norlin

agree with the robot part, I build a decent number of robots (helped with the local highschool in their winning the local robotics competition to go on to nationals) and in the hobby community it's pretty hard getting anything under the size of the diameter of a penny (pretty hard even getting that small). Of course, this is a robot with a brain, you can get smaller if it's brainless...ie a motor, battery and that's it, but even then you're constricted by the size of available motors and power sources (batteries). The smallest battery you're likely to get is the size of a BB fly, and if you power it remotely via a thin wire, you still need the motor which you can get from a pager or cell phone, still generally no smaller than the size of a large housefly and then you need to add food on top of that meaning you'll probably end up the size of a large BB fly and try to feed an L1 nymph which is probably half that size at most.


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## Orin

frogparty said:


> In addition to the chitin, for which there is NO veggie equivalent, youd need a saturated fat that would stay solid at room temp, unlike most veggie fats that are liquid at room temp. You need protein, and you need micro and macronutrients.
> 
> In my opinion... this will not work. Buuilding a mini robot? NO! You couldnt build one small enough to encourage small nymphs to feed.


 The "robot" for small mantis feeding could have a small wire arm at the end of which the food would be placed in a tiny globule. It could twitch to attract attention.Mantids can't digest chitin so what would they need it for? Remember, chitin is similar to cellulose and mantids have a short digestive tract.

The idea is not at all impossible but I don't know that anyone would consider spending the time and effort it would require.


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## jrh3

I wonder if my mantids will eat there own legs if they step in this super jelly. Lmao.


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## Norlin

I had always read that chitin is a necessary part of their diet and went with that, however when you think carefully on it, it makes sense that they'd form it from other component materials rather than digest it to form it.


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## Mime454

I don't know why this thread is still being taken seriously. Think about it. You are honestly discussing how to build tiny robots laced with impossible food to circumvent millions of years of Evolution so that some 21st Century morals can be imposed on an insect with a "brain" the size of a pinto bean.


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## agent A

Mime454 said:


> I don't know why this thread is still being taken seriously. Think about it. You are honestly discussing how to build tiny robots laced with impossible food to circumvent millions of years of Evolution so that some 21st Century morals can be imposed on an insect with a "brain" the size of a pinto bean.


oh their brains r MUCH smaller than that :lol:


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## massaman

I think the mantis is a perfect predator created to hunt and eat live prey and if it was designed to eat vegetable matter then it would of been found by now but most insects are cannibalistic or some omnivores!


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## Norlin

I'm not concerned with the reason behind it because I think it's a ridiculously stupid reason, I'm just curious on the execution and possibility of it.


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## Mime454

agent A said:


> oh their brains r MUCH smaller than that :lol:


Maybe if you took all the ganglions and concentrated them like a brain, you'd get to the size I mean. I didn't mean just in the space between their eyes. That's also why brain was in quotes.


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## happy1892

This will be very hard if it is posible to give the food they need with that food. I am not reading all this! Maybe somebody already said this.........NO! fight the temptation! Haha!


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## kitkat39

Feed it peanut butter.. EVERYTHING seems to love peanut butter. I think beer is technically vegan as well. :-D


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## mutrok4040

Wouldn't it be awesome if stag beetles were carnivores?


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## Sneaky123

If you're serious and not just trolling, take into the consideration that a mantis could damage its mandibles on a metal robot covered in paste. Hopefully you have a lot of knowledge on proteins, sugars, and near-microscopic engineering, because achieving this in my view is near impossible. If you do find a formula that could sustain a mantis, it could be useful for sick mantids or covering their food in it before feeding.


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## mutrok4040

Im sure its possible to make a jelly for mantids, although I doubt it could be completly vegan.


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## Sneaky123

I wonder if the surviving vegan mantids would be as sickly as the human ones


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## patrickfraser

Sneaky123 said:


> I wonder if the surviving vegan mantids would be as sickly as the human ones


 :lol: +1


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## Orin

Sneaky123 said:


> Hopefully you have a lot of knowledge on proteins, sugars, and near-microscopic engineering, because achieving this in my view is near impossible.


 You probably don't realize there are artificial diets for a number of giant silk moths that feed only on specific host plants which would be much more difficult to emulate than a generalist predator diet. The mix itself would probably be very simple, it's the execution that would be difficult.


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## happy1892

Orin said:


> You probably don't realize there are artificial diets for a number of giant silk moths that feed only on specific host plants which would be much more difficult to emulate than a generalist predator diet. The mix itself would probably be very simple, it's the execution that would be difficult.


So you do not need meat? LOL! Wow. OK, I have to read this! At least I lasted a while hehehe. Actually I really have to know how it is done to believe it... maybe not. Are you sure or do you just guess that from knowing just a little? Oh, and Kayimbo you can just put the food into the mouth of the mantis (that would be easier I think but sometimes it seems imposible haha!). What about baby mantids? You will need small robots (fruit fly size?). Can you do that? Just curious.


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## happy1892

kayimbo said:


> ah i dunno. genetics can adapt pretty quickly. you know the whole human cow milk example. if crickets can live on just some water and 1 or 2 types of food, their requirements for nutritional diversity must not be very high. I'm hoping that extends to most insects in general?!?!?
> 
> either way, i'll make my paste of whatever i can figure out, and if i can get these two to breed, see how many of the nymphs live from the paste ######.
> 
> Any input on what types of food should go into their food, or how to make a robot small enough a nymph would be attracted to it would be welcome.


Oh my you should know that this is a big change and not a little one. I do not know anything about this so sorry. Oh, and crickets are omnivores, mantids are carnivores I guess that makes a difference but I do not know. What do you mean one or two types of foods? A Sphodromantis could live on just roaches.


Mime454 said:


> I don't know why this thread is still being taken seriously. Think about it. You are honestly discussing how to build tiny robots laced with impossible food to circumvent millions of years of Evolution so that some 21st Century morals can be imposed on an insect with a "brain" the size of a pinto bean.


Is it not too hard LOL!?


massaman said:


> I think the mantis is a perfect predator created to hunt and eat live prey and if it was designed to eat vegetable matter then it would of been found by now but most insects are cannibalistic or some omnivores!


Mantids do not strike perfectly, at least usually. "if it was designed to eat vegetable matter then it would of been found by now but most insects are cannibalistic or some omnivores!" What does this have to do with this? That does sound right but what does it have to do with this? Maybe the food mantids need are not just in animals..........I do not know.


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## kayimbo

wow this forum is really wonderful. Thank you for all the responses. I assure you after i'm done with this experiment i'll move onto something more traditional.

The information about the fat content was really helpful. I think i'm going to start emailing some entomologist professors and see if i can get some more details. I'll check in on this thread from now and again but i'll probably be silent till some progress or failure is made.

really its the micro nutrients i'm worried about. kind of like how cats will straight up die without taurine, and i think plant sources of taurine were only utilized pretty recently.


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## massaman

theres a 99.9 percent chance that this idea will fail and I would never attempt it with anything other then maybe a chinese mantis or european!


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## Mime454

massaman said:


> theres a 99.9 percent chance that this idea will fail and I would never attempt it with anything other then maybe a chinese mantis or european!


That's pretty racist.


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## massaman

never knew you could be a racist with a mantis?


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## Mime454

massaman said:


> never knew you could be a racist with a mantis?


Chinese and European are also ethnic groups. Explaining a joke makes it less funny. :'(


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## happy1892

Mime454 said:


> That's pretty racist.


Haha funny! Actually this might not be racist in anyway I might be wrong though. I am not sure what racist is but I have an idea.


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## mantisboy

This can be achieved but making the food or paste is a very long and tedious process. As well, your mantids will have to be fed by hand at least once daily. Do you have a food processor and a good organics store close to home by chance? The hardest part is getting milk kefir grains and organic white honey. The basic recipe to make a months supply of food is to mix 1 teaspoon of milk kefir grains, 1/2 teaspoon of organic white honey, 3 grams of fermented soybean paste (3 grams per every 1 teaspoon of milk kefir grains), 1/4 teaspoon of Carrot Powder (good for the eyes), 1/8 teaspoon of Shavegrass herb, 1/8 teaspoon of shepherds purse herb, 4 tablespoons of pureed Gryllidae. Make sure to mist them twice daily as this will help them purge their systems of any toxin build-up from their previous diets.

Good luck Kayimbo, those are 2 lucky mantids!


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## fleurdejoo

I have not read through all of this because it's entirely ridiculous.

And Kayimbo is about to make me lose my religion and cuss, thereby breaking my promise to Hibiscus.

I think this person is just trolling!


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## fleurdejoo

Or like Kitkat said you can feed it peanut butter and I can have the beer??


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## mutrok4040

fleurdejoo said:


> I have not read through all of this because it's entirely ridiculous.
> 
> And Kayimbo is about to make me lose my religion and cuss, thereby breaking my promise to Hibiscus.
> 
> I think this person is just trolling!


I know this is pretty ridiculous, but it's not impossible... no need to lose your religion and cuss over an experiment.Think of how far technology has come since the 50's... all that achieved but you guys don't think a diet can be made for an insect. Hmmm....


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## Paradoxica

idahomantid said:


> This can be achieved but making the food or paste is a very long and tedious process. As well, your mantids will have to be fed by hand at least once daily. Do you have a food processor and a good organics store close to home by chance? The hardest part is getting milk kefir grains and organic white honey. The basic recipe to make a months supply of food is to mix 1 teaspoon of milk kefir grains, 1/2 teaspoon of organic white honey, 3 grams of fermented soybean paste (3 grams per every 1 teaspoon of milk kefir grains), 1/4 teaspoon of Carrot Powder (good for the eyes), 1/8 teaspoon of Shavegrass herb, 1/8 teaspoon of shepherds purse herb, 4 tablespoons of pureed Gryllidae. Make sure to mist them twice daily as this will help them purge their systems of any toxin build-up from their previous diets.
> 
> Good luck Kayimbo, those are 2 lucky mantids!


you sound like you've done this before. how did that work out for you?


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## bobericc

Mantis will usually accept offering of fruit..

But they are a hunter at heart.. If Your trying to raise a lion as a sheep

don't expect them to turn out how you want


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## Orin

Paradoxica said:


> you sound like you've done this before. how did that work out for you?


 You've probably done it too if you've raised inverts in captivity. Do you think fruit flies eat potato flakes or corn mean in nature? Few, if any, of our captive critters have a diet that's not synthetic. Have you seen mantids under rocks eating house crickets? The original posters idea is difficult, not peculiar.


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## fleurdejoo

I actually think it would be difficult and peculiar.


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## patrickfraser

fleurdejoo said:


> I actually think it would be difficult and peculiar.


I used my first ever like for this one. You Go Girl! :lol:


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## Orin

Yes, but you said you hadn't read the thread, I admit it's not peculiar to draw conclusions on something you haven't read, people do it all the time. The peculiar reference was to a synthetic diet since that's what nearly all our pets subsist on.


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## happy1892

fleurdejoo said:


> I have not read through all of this because it's entirely ridiculous.
> 
> And Kayimbo is about to make me lose my religion and cuss, thereby breaking my promise to Hibiscus.
> 
> I think this person is just trolling!


NAA! I do not think he did this to make anyone upset or anything.


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## Mime454

Orin said:


> Yes, but you said you hadn't read the thread, I admit it's not peculiar to draw conclusions on something you haven't read, people do it all the time. The peculiar reference was to a synthetic diet since that's what nearly all our pets subsist on.


Prayimg mantids are adapted to eat meat. I imagine that trying to make a vegan praying mantis is equivalent to trying to make a coprophagous human.

This isn't a mantis eating a cricket(substituting one meat for another) this is trying to force a food down them that they are evolutionarily unprepared for.


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## happy1892

Mime454 said:


> Prayimg mantids are adapted to eat meat. I imagine that trying to make a vegan praying mantis is equivalent to trying to make a coprophagous human.
> 
> This isn't a mantis eating a cricket(substituting one meat for another) this is trying to force a food down them that they are evolutionarily unprepared for.


Maybe a person could make a meat like thing from a plant and maybe other things and not using meat.


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## MantidLord

My question is just "why?" Sure it's probably possible, but unlike moths fed on synthetic foods and fruit flies raised and cultured in man made substances, what would be the purpose of going through the trouble to feed mantids fake food? Let's say in a fantastic world the mantids "evolved" to readily eat the fake stuff. They'll just be dependent on the fake food and reject real food, meaning they can't be released in the environment. This thread is a waste of time and this guy is obviously trolling. I could see if prey weren't readily available for a mantis.

And btw, I would assume after a few generations, maybe the mantis will lose it's raptors and revert back to a cockroach. :clown: :tt2:


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## Orin

MantidLord said:


> Let's say in a fantastic world the mantids "evolved" to readily eat the fake stuff. They'll just be dependent on the fake food and reject real food, meaning they can't be released in the environment.


 First, releasing mantids is a bad idea for the local population and depending on what and where can be illegal. Second, hornworms adapted to eating brown mushy goo off the bottom of a deli cup do just fine on tomato leaves. You have to adapt the synthetic food to the animal, within reason it doesn't really work the other way around.


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## fleurdejoo

So Orin have you done this before?

Are you gonna give it a whirl?

And I did...skim it.


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## happy1892

If you are able to make the food then feed it to the mantid or mantids (I would use just a few, like three) and hand feed them using a chopstick, stick or something (this is hard and often takes a long time and it seems to depend on the species and age and the personality) and have roaches, moths and/or other insects to feed them if they are not doing well. I do not think it will do much harm if you do not let them starve and if it is not toxic to the mantids. inch: Maybe this helps, but it is not much.


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## MantidLord

Orin said:


> First, releasing mantids is a bad idea for the local population and depending on what and where can be illegal. Second, hornworms adapted to eating brown mushy goo off the bottom of a deli cup do just fine on tomato leaves. You have to adapt the synthetic food to the animal, within reason it doesn't really work the other way around.


How is releasing mantids a bad idea? I do it all the time, releasing mantids back into the area where I've found them. He never stated which species, but Chinese and Euros are found nearly everywhere so he can surely release them. Besides exotic species, and maybe Florida, what place prohibits you from releasing already established insects back into the environment? As for the second statement, that may be true. Still, I don't see the purpose in doing this. It's like trying to create a synthetic casing around mantid eggs that keeps them warm during the winter and protects them from other elements.


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## ChumpSnatcher

That mantis would be much happier eating bugs out of the trashcan you found it on.


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## mantisboy

> This can be achieved but making the food or paste is a very long and tedious process. As well, your mantids will have to be fed by hand at least once daily. Do you have a food processor and a good organics store close to home by chance? The hardest part is getting milk kefir grains and organic white honey. The basic recipe to make a months supply of food is to mix 1 teaspoon of milk kefir grains, 1/2 teaspoon of organic white honey, 3 grams of fermented soybean paste (3 grams per every 1 teaspoon of milk kefir grains), 1/4 teaspoon of Carrot Powder (good for the eyes), 1/8 teaspoon of Shavegrass herb, 1/8 teaspoon of shepherds purse herb, 4 tablespoons of pureed Gryllidae. Make sure to mist them twice daily as this will help them purge their systems of any toxin build-up from their previous diets.





Paradoxica said:


> you sound like you've done this before. how did that work out for you?


Look up the definition for "Gryllidae"....


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## Paradoxica

idahomantid said:


> Look up the definition for "Gryllidae"....


Haha! Very subtle. You got me


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## Mime454

happy1892 said:


> Maybe a person could make a meat like thing from a plant and maybe other things and not using meat.


I don't deny that humans can be vegan. That's not what I said. We're omnivores.

A praying mantis is an apex predator, so trying to make a vegan mantis would be like trying to make a coprophagus human.


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## Orin

MantidLord said:


> How is releasing mantids a bad idea? I do it all the time, releasing mantids back into the area where I've found them.


 If you found them in your area releasing them back into that area should not be a problem (though some people may disagree since your feeder crickets can have viruses your local mantis population doesn't).


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## MantidLord

Orin said:


> If you found them in your area releasing them back into that area should not be a problem (though some people may disagree since your feeder crickets can have viruses your local mantis population doesn't).


Yeah I was thinking that. Unless you release some type of virus but even still, the local population should have enough genetic diversity to survive something like that. And in dealing with introduced species like Euros and Chinese, even if a local population was devastated, it would soon be repopulated by mantids from neighboring areas.


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## happy1892

MantidLord said:


> Yeah I was thinking that. Unless you release some type of virus but even still, the local population should have enough genetic diversity to survive something like that. And in dealing with introduced species like Euros and Chinese, even if a local population was devastated, it would soon be repopulated by mantids from neighboring areas.


If it killed all of the mantids in a big area then I would guess it would keep spreading.


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## happy1892

Mime454 said:


> I don't deny that humans can be vegan. That's not what I said. We're omnivores.
> 
> A praying mantis is an apex predator, so trying to make a vegan mantis would be like trying to make a coprophagus human.


Maybe people can make meat without meat. A human could not grow without meat or something like that. A human baby would die without animal protein.


ChumpSnatcher said:


> That mantis would be much happier eating bugs out of the trashcan you found it on.


At least happy enough hahaha!


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## mutrok4040

happy1892 said:


> A human baby would die without animal protein.


Then make a synthetic diet for the baby o_0


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## happy1892

mutrok4040 said:


> Then make a synthetic diet for the baby o_0


Does it not have animal protein? If it does not it is hard for me to believe.


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## Extrememantid

They get their needed nutrition from bugs! You have a stupid plan that's not gonna work!


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## MantidLord

happy1892 said:


> If it killed all of the mantids in a big area then I would guess it would keep spreading.


If it's a virus, maybe, maybe not. It depends on what you consider "big". There will most likely be a population that is resistant to the virus and that population may migrate to the area where the mantids were decimated. Euros, Chinese, and Mediterraneans have spread to new areas before, they can do it again.


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## happy1892

MantidLord said:


> If it's a virus, maybe, maybe not. It depends on what you consider "big". There will most likely be a population that is resistant to the virus and that population may migrate to the area where the mantids were decimated. Euros, Chinese, and Mediterraneans have spread to new areas before, they can do it again.


Oh my! Why are they so different from each other that some die from a sickness that others do not? Is it a small difference?


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## ShieldMantid1997

I have read the whole thing. I don't really understand why everyone's giving him such a hard time. I understand that it can be hard to watch people plan/do something you think is completely ridiculous and could never see yourself doing, but please, if he wants to waste his time, so be it. Let him do what he wants.

With that said, i myself do not think this will work, but keep an open mind.

I for one would love to see this work, not because i would do it, but because how cool would a fruit fly sized robot walking around with edible mantis food on it? Pretty damn cool!


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## massaman

wasting a good mantis on this cocamammy project is pointless in all fairness its like trying to feed a vegan meat and that would not work out as planned and if he wants to waste a good perfectly mantis on this then its a choice but a bad one regardless!


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## ShieldMantid1997

massaman said:


> wasting a good mantis on this cocamammy project is pointless in all fairness its like trying to feed a vegan meat and that would not work out as planned and if he wants to waste a good perfectly mantis on this then its a choice but a bad one regardless!


You are entitled to an opinion, but that is YOUR opinion, not fact.

I agree, but obviously the OP has a different opinion, which is not right or wrong either.


----------



## happy1892

ShieldMantid1997 said:


> I have read the whole thing. I don't really understand why everyone's giving him such a hard time. I understand that it can be hard to watch people plan/do something you think is completely ridiculous and could never see yourself doing, but please, if he wants to waste his time, so be it. Let him do what he wants.
> 
> With that said, i myself do not think this will work, but keep an open mind.
> 
> I for one would love to see this work, not because i would do it, but because how cool would a fruit fly sized robot walking around with edible mantis food on it? Pretty damn cool!


+1. I have no idea how hard this will be actually! It sounds pretty hard to me though. Come on, this is just playing! And he wanted some help with that.Kayimbo it would be nice if you did not let the mantids starve.


----------



## ShieldMantid1997

happy1892 said:


> +1. I have no idea how hard this will be actually! It sounds pretty hard to me though. Come on, this is just playing! And he wanted some help with that.


Exactly, with modern technology i don't think this is possible, but hey, worth a shot.

As for me, i have no clue on this subject of matter but i hope whomever does can help him out!


----------



## MantidLord

happy1892 said:


> Oh my! Why are they so different from each other that some die from a sickness that others do not? Is it a small difference?


It's not that they're different. It's genetics. If a virus gets out that kills off a population that might be more genetically similar, and another population moves in (somehow) and is different enough to be resistant or survive the virus, then they can become established. Of course this is ignoring a lot of other factors in genetics, but it's a basic scheme. Basically, as long as the wild mantids aren't inbreeding as if they're in captivity, there will be a "couple" of mantids to survive and become resistant to the virus. Assuming the virus isn't extremely deadly and kills mantids before they can reproduce and spreads like wildfire.

Just like in other species and humans, some people die from a common cold while others never even get them and some just get the sniffles.


----------



## happy1892

MantidLord said:


> It's not that they're different. It's genetics. If a virus gets out that kills off a population that might be more genetically similar, and another population moves in (somehow) and is different enough to be resistant or survive the virus, then they can become established. Of course this is ignoring a lot of other factors in genetics, but it's a basic scheme. Basically, as long as the wild mantids aren't inbreeding as if they're in captivity, there will be a "couple" of mantids to survive and become resistant to the virus. Assuming the virus isn't extremely deadly and kills mantids before they can reproduce and spreads like wildfire.
> 
> Just like in other species and humans, some people die from a common cold while others never even get them and some just get the sniffles.


They are different. Thanks, I understand.


----------



## Meadow98684

Hey man, let nature work it's course. Feed them flies, grasshoppers, crickets, stuff like that. Don't try to feed them broccoli. It's just not natural, ya know? That'd be like humans being fed paper.


----------



## fleurdejoo

Robots!


----------



## patrickfraser

Be sure to keep us updated on your progress. I'm very interested in what you decide to go with. Pics would be awesome.


----------



## Mime454

happy1892 said:


> Maybe people can make meat without meat. A human could not grow without meat or something like that. A human baby would die without animal protein.
> 
> At least happy enough hahaha!


Is this true? Do vegans have to feed their kids meat? Or do you mean breast milk? Do vegans have problems with breast feeding?


----------



## happy1892

Mime454 said:


> Is this true? Do vegans have to feed their kids meat? Or do you mean breast milk? Do vegans have problems with breast feeding?


Sorry, I do not know.


Meadow98684 said:


> Hey man, let nature work it's course. Feed them flies, grasshoppers, crickets, stuff like that. Don't try to feed them broccoli. It's just not natural, ya know? That'd be like humans being fed paper.


He is not going to feed them something like meat or he is going to try to make something like meat?


----------



## fleurdejoo

Agreed! Photos fer sure.


----------



## Norlin

Nothing wrong with the experiment as long as it has a fallback plan. So if the mantis doesn't take the synthetic food, just toss it some flies to make sure it doesn't starve rather than stubbornly try to feed it the synthetic food until it starves.


----------



## justrokkit

First post here!

Kayimba (sp?), if you really wanted to do this, going to a mantid enthusiast forum was the completely wrong way to go. Your experiment operates on the acceptance of inevitable loss of life, and that will always be a problem to a mantid enthusiast. Another flaw (no offense intended) with your approach is that part of the passion and respect for mantids come from their feeding behavior and predatory instincts. A truly vegan mantid (independent of predatory instincts) won't move the way mantids do, won't turn and tilt its head the way mantids do, and won't even physically resemble a mantid. You'll probably get a stick insect.

The concept of evolution is inevitable. A lot of things have to die before you get what you get. Darwin's finches, for example. The berry-eaters only became berry-eaters after the whole lot of bug-eaters in that vicinity died out. What you're setting out to do is creating an entirely new species. The technology that is responsible for synthetic nutrients diverges on two concepts. With people (deviation from omnivore nature), a ton of people and a ton of money was poured into this for the prospect of not having to kill animals that have been anthropomorphized by culture. With the feeder insects to which so many people are referring, these insects are either primarily herbivore or omnivore. The nutrients they take in are much simpler, but their predators rely on the nutrients they *synthesize* out of the building blocks they consume. It will first take isolating and testing the biological significance of every chemical you can find in anything a mantid will consume, then cross-reference and find everything that is common to all subspecies and seeing if your cocktail will then sustain all species to full life expectancy. So you will, despite all the luck, skill, and smarts in the world, kill a whole lot of mantids.

For me, personally, I don't get how you, whom I presume to be vegan yourself, can stand to kill any animal for your curiosity when you don't agree with killing a cow to feed a village. And if you're not, why do you want/need to make a vegan anything?


----------



## happy1892

justrokkit said:


> First post here!


I do not understand? 


justrokkit said:


> Kayimba (sp?),


What does that mean? Is it a joke? The person's ID who started this topic is Kayimbo. I thought it was a species of mantis. Then other kind of animal LOL!


justrokkit said:


> First post here!
> 
> Kayimba (sp?), if you really wanted to do this, going to a mantid enthusiast forum was the completely wrong way to go. Your experiment operates on the acceptance of inevitable loss of life, and that will always be a problem to a mantid enthusiast.


Ummm.....I do not see a reason they need to die. Why do they?


justrokkit said:


> First post here!
> 
> Another flaw (no offense intended) with your approach is that part of the passion and respect for mantids come from their feeding behavior and predatory instincts. A truly vegan mantid (independent of predatory instincts) won't move the way mantids do, won't turn and tilt its head the way mantids do, and won't even physically resemble a mantid. You'll probably get a stick insect..


He is going to feed them what they need which is a meat like thing, right? And what he is talking about is vegan right? Anyway that is not a mantis (that is what you are saying?) and maybe that is one thing that could happen.


justrokkit said:


> For me, personally, I don't get how you, whom I presume to be vegan yourself, can stand to kill any animal for your curiosity when you don't agree with killing a cow to feed a village. And if you're not, why do you want/need to make a vegan anything?


I do not think he said he was vegan. You seem to be pretty certain about these things. Are you not that certain?


----------



## justrokkit

Happy1892, I don't want to get into a personal tête-à-tête with you on a thread about some scientific. I will provide clarification if that's what you want. My understanding was that Kayimbo (I was more interested in the subject matter, so I could not remember his/her handle) wanted to take soy to make a vegan alternative, using a mechanized analog to trigger the hunting reflex. I don't know all that is in an insect, nor do I know what a mantid absorbs from its food and what goes in the fecal matter, and s/he did not take steps to address such questions, either. And without specialized knowledge and tools, it's all trial and error, no?

Do some mantids discard wings because there's no tissue in it? Do some/more mantids strongly prefer crickets over silkworms because they need the crunch of chitin? When there are so many questions to answer and so many things to conclude and/or rule out, the experimenter has a lot of work cut out for him/her. And scientific progress, without exception, requires preemptive acceptance of loss in any experiment (if you can prove this wrong, I will only benefit from factual rebuttal); any voluntary loss of life and/or voluntary removal of standard food to a mantid in a mantid enthusiast community will invariably be ill-received.

Let me address Karimbo's post as an explanation for my previous post:

1. Karimbo posted that s/he intends to create a jelly without exhibit intent to test or address any significance of the texture of sub-skeletal tissue (meat in invertebrates that we humans regularly eat have fibrous structure).

2. S/he wants to use soy protein and only soy protein. A cursory search reveals that soy is steeped in controversy: heavy consumption can alter human physiology, and isolated consumption in livestock has shown poor health because they are not biologically equipped to digest soy alone.

3. S/he intends to coat the analog in the said jelly. I believe mantids are programmed (for lack of a better word) to consume the contents of their forelimbs, so I'm led to believe one would try and break down the robot analog.

If I've falsely concluded that you are vegan, then Karimbo, I am sorry. I made the conclusion based on stereotype that vegans outwardly aim to make the world vegan.

Happy1892, I regret that we interacted under these pretenses. If you have anything to discuss/debate exterior to this sole topic, please PM me and I will happily engage you. But I have no intent to simply come out on top. I may not yet have a mantid to call my own, but I respect them greatly, and would certainly respect them all the more if I were the size of a BB fly! It's why I responded the way I did.


----------



## jrh3

ShieldMantid1997 said:


> You are entitled to an opinion, but that is YOUR opinion, not fact.
> 
> I agree, but obviously the OP has a different opinion, which is not right or wrong either.


Democrats.....Geesshh!!!!!!!! :gunsmilie: . Never wanting to take sides. Yes the OP is wrong. Mantids are not vegetarians. They were not made that way.


----------



## Extrememantid

justrokkit said:


> Happy1892, I don't want to get into a personal tête-à-tête with you on a thread about some scientific. I will provide clarification if that's what you want. My understanding was that Kayimbo (I was more interested in the subject matter, so I could not remember his/her handle) wanted to take soy to make a vegan alternative, using a mechanized analog to trigger the hunting reflex. I don't know all that is in an insect, nor do I know what a mantid absorbs from its food and what goes in the fecal matter, and s/he did not take steps to address such questions, either. And without specialized knowledge and tools, it's all trial and error, no?
> 
> Do some mantids discard wings because there's no tissue in it? Do some/more mantids strongly prefer crickets over silkworms because they need the crunch of chitin? When there are so many questions to answer and so many things to conclude and/or rule out, the experimenter has a lot of work cut out for him/her. And scientific progress, without exception, requires preemptive acceptance of loss in any experiment (if you can prove this wrong, I will only benefit from factual rebuttal); any voluntary loss of life and/or voluntary removal of standard food to a mantid in a mantid enthusiast community will invariably be ill-received.
> 
> Let me address Karimbo's post as an explanation for my previous post:
> 
> 1. Karimbo posted that s/he intends to create a jelly without exhibit intent to test or address any significance of the texture of sub-skeletal tissue (meat in invertebrates that we humans regularly eat have fibrous structure).
> 
> 2. S/he wants to use soy protein and only soy protein. A cursory search reveals that soy is steeped in controversy: heavy
> 
> consumption can alter human physiology, and isolated consumption in livestock has shown poor health because they are not biologically equipped to digest soy alone.
> 
> 3. S/he intends to coat the analog in the said jelly. I believe mantids are programmed (for lack of a better word) to consume the contents of their forelimbs, so I'm led to believe one would try and break down the robot analog
> 
> If I've falsely concluded that you are vegan, then Karimbo, I am sorry. I made the conclusion based on stereotype that vegans outwardly aim to make the world vegan.
> 
> Happy1892, I regret that we interacted under these pretenses. If you have anything to discuss/debate exterior to this sole topic, please PM me and I will happily engage you. But I have no intent to simply come out on top. I may not yet have a mantid to call my
> 
> own, but I respect them greatly, and would certainly respect them all the more if I were the size of a BB fly! It's why I responded the way I did.


I have a feeling you and me will get along


----------



## brancsikia339

fleurdejoo said:


> I have not read through all of this because it's entirely ridiculous.
> 
> And Kayimbo is about to make me lose my religion and cuss, thereby breaking my promise to Hibiscus.
> 
> I think this person is just trolling!


+1



Orin said:


> Yes, but you said you hadn't read the thread, I admit it's not peculiar to draw conclusions on something you haven't read, people do it all the time. The peculiar reference was to a synthetic diet since that's what nearly all our pets subsist on.


Yes we do feed some of our pets different food than they do in the wild, but that isn't changing their lifestyle which took millions of years to evolve. It's like asking an elephant to eat a hamburger.


----------



## angelofdeathzz

The answer is simple, just feed them vegan flies, vegan crickets, and maybe some non meat eating butterflies for desert! This has got to make the top 10 for one of the most silly topics ever started! WOW... Obviously a troll, do you see any other posts from this person?


----------



## happy1892

angelofdeathzz said:


> The answer is simple, just feed them vegan flies, vegan crickets, and maybe some non meat eating butterflies for desert! This has got to make the top 10 for one of the most silly topics ever started! WOW... Obviously a troll, do you see any other posts from this person?


Uh oh, Oops!


----------



## justrokkit

angelofdeathzz said:


> The answer is simple, just feed them vegan flies, vegan crickets, and maybe some non meat eating butterflies for desert! This has got to make the top 10 for one of the most silly topics ever started! WOW... Obviously a troll, do you see any other posts from this person?


I certainly hope so!


----------



## ShieldMantid1997

jrh3 said:


> Democrats.....Geesshh!!!!!!!! :gunsmilie: . Never wanting to take sides. Yes the OP is wrong. Mantids are not vegetarians. They were not made that way.


nononononono not democrat! NO lol

It's called respect for someone's opinion, and i specifically stated which side im on.

And he is not wrong, because its possible, just really unnecessary


----------



## Mime454

Okay guys, who let the republicans on the Internet?


----------



## tylersterrain

Lol, all this talk and no one caught onto the fact that Gelatin isn't vegan or vegetarian. In fact, gelatin is a very common ingredient and is mostly animal skin and bone  

I have been a non-meat eater for 3.5 years and don't see a problem with feeding insects to insects. I'm not even extremely moral about my choice to not eat meat. I originally started for morality reasons (and still agree with them), but now that I don't eat meat it is honestly disgusting.

I would love it if the original post caused all this ruckus and accidentally used Gelatin in the recipe. :devil: 



kitkat39 said:


> Feed it peanut butter.. EVERYTHING seems to love peanut butter. I think beer is technically vegan as well. :-D


Also, most beer is vegan, however, some brands contain something called Isinglass. It's dried swim bladders from fish


----------



## sinensispsyched

What is an insect's exoskeleton made of? Can a synthetic version of this be created? If so, just imagine a hollow cylinder of this material with blended insect juices inside. Would this work out? You're not modifying its diet too much, but for the buyer there's no killing seen.

It'd also be long enough that mantids can grab them in their raptorials and munch away.

This is probably just as crazy, but it's simpler and another alternative.


----------



## justrokkit

sinensispsyched said:


> What is an insect's exoskeleton made of? Can a synthetic version of this be created? If so, just imagine a hollow cylinder of this material with blended insect juices inside. Would this work out? You're not modifying its diet too much, but for the buyer there's no killing seen.
> 
> It'd also be long enough that mantids can grab them in their raptorials and munch away.
> 
> This is probably just as crazy, but it's simpler and another alternative.


Minor note, the blended insect juices (if your usage is taken literally), will just nullify the whole effort.

But even with this so-called casing, mantids are predators, not scavengers. There is a distinction, because the predatory behavior requires the stimulus of recognizing prey (i.e. movement, smell, glint of light reflected off of eyes, and so on...sophistication generally grows with cognitive abilities). And it's just as ShieldMantid1997 said:



ShieldMantid1997 said:


> And he is not wrong, because its possible, just really unnecessary


The barrier to creating a suitable substitute is possible, but developing it will take money and time. Creating synthetic chemicals that have no drawbacks is really, really hard. So hard that even FDA can't require it of billion-dollar pharmaceuticals. But of course, not impossible. Theoretically.


----------



## sinensispsyched

Yeah, just a different idea.


----------



## rs4guy

I just saw this now and am glad I didn't see it before. What a moronic topic to discuss....


----------



## angelofdeathzz

rs4guy said:


> I just saw this now and am glad I didn't see it before. What a moronic topic to discuss....


Agreed, my words put more simply and to the point!


----------



## massaman

might as well take a syringe and inject bug juices into some tofu and try that instead maybe!


----------



## patrickfraser

I'm still waiting on updates and photos. There must be a bridge under attack somewhere, as it seems the troll has left the building. :lol:


----------



## brancsikia339

patrickfraser said:


> I'm still waiting on updates and photos. There must be a bridge under attack somewhere, as it seems the troll has left the building. :lol:


Yup. I hope those test mantids were set free!


----------



## fleurdejoo

I don't even think he /she ever had any to begin with.


----------



## sinensispsyched

Yup, a troll. I honestly didn't know what a troll is (beyond mythical creatures). However, after researching it, this certainly is a troll.


----------



## mantisboy

Both those Mantids are now dead....................................................................they got hit by a bus.


----------



## Domanating

Lol i can't believe i read the entire topic. It's hilarious!

If the guy wanted a vegan jelly stuff, why not just add some honey to be more appetizing and then hand feed the mantis instead of covering a micro robot with it? Why does he even want to trigger the hunting behavior of a mantis if he wants to make them eat plants? Even if it was possible to make them live only with the jelly stuff they couldn't be freed since their only "food source" is not available in the wild.

I could debate about turning vegan insects into carnivores since I've witnessed many times grasshoppers killing and eating each others out of desperation because of the lack of their normal food (it wasn't deliberate, i just frequently forget to feed my catches) but the other way around and specifically for the praying-mantis that's just ridiculous.


----------



## brancsikia339

I don't think he went through with this.


----------



## patrickfraser

This is probably posted as a link on some other forum as comic relief. :lol: I'm still waiting for pictures. :huh:


----------



## trevorrook1

maybe you could apply honey to this paste substance? my mantis seems to eat honey off a tooth pick. so if you add a kind of "honey scent" to it it might work hand feeding it. or maybe banana flavored substance enriched with protiens and vitamins???


----------



## trevorrook1

Domanating said:


> Lol i can't believe i read the entire topic. It's hilarious!
> 
> If the guy wanted a vegan jelly stuff, why not just add some honey to be more appetizing and then hand feed the mantis instead of covering a micro robot with it? Why does he even want to trigger the hunting behavior of a mantis if he wants to make them eat plants? Even if it was possible to make them live only with the jelly stuff they couldn't be freed since their only "food source" is not available in the wild.
> 
> I could debate about turning vegan insects into carnivores since I've witnessed many times grasshoppers killing and eating each others out of desperation because of the lack of their normal food (it wasn't deliberate, i just frequently forget to feed my catches) but the other way around and specifically for the praying-mantis that's just ridiculous.


sorry didnt see this lol. but yea the same ideal lol


----------



## kayimbo

hi justtrokkit, wonderful posts, thank you.

I'm very worried about the micro-nutrient thing, and don't really know of any way currently to work on that problem. Anyone have a some powerful centrifuges and can do nmr/gcms testing on blended up insects?

My reasons for wanting to do this experiment are pretty abstract. If you guys really care you can PM me and i'll explain my motivations.	I'm not a vegan, i accept that as part of the experiment i'll probably kill alot of mantis. progress is sad like that  

The details of my experiment that i've outlined are all just sketches at this point, tossing things out there. Sadly my male mantis died, but right after he died the female started showing signs of being pregnant, so i'm just kind of hoping here.

She's a european mantis though, so even if she lays a fertilized egg case, i'd still have quite a ways to go before i get nymphs. I don't know if i specifically stated it but i decided early on to try this with nymphs.

Getting those little mantis houses ready.

here is my baby, who i just call "green mantis".

edit: oh dear, does this forum allow autoplaying flash videos lol?


----------



## happy1892

kayimbo said:


> My reasons for wanting to do this experiment are pretty abstract. If you guys really care you can PM me and i'll explain my motivations.	I'm not a vegan, i accept that as part of the experiment i'll probably kill alot of mantis. progress is sad like that


Just feed them an insect they can eat when the food is not working then try something different. I am not sure about the video. Can you tell if it is a European Mantis and not another kind of mantis? Many people see nothing different between animals that are similar (I do not think they care much and they have not seen many LOL!). If you are not sure they are European Mantids will you please take a video of her closer and try to get it clear as you can? Oh, and I guess European Mantids are the only mantids in North America that have a big black dot and many white dots below the black dots in between their front legs. And adult females are usually around 7cm long.


----------



## kayimbo

yeah she's a european.

looking into getting some ooths. i keep you guys updated when the time rolls around.


----------



## Golden State Vivs

progress is sad like that? no needless experimentation is sad like that.


----------



## Bug Trader

Its pretty obvious when you come across a thread on any forum like this.......Its out of place, its always meant to stir up a debate and much more but when it involves the life of living organisms and your talking about trying to change evolution and recreate what you want its pretty clear you do not belong in this hobby. If you have to try and play god with a living being and risk its welfare for nothing more than to fit your wants, not needs this hobby is clearly not for you. Go get an iguana or something that wont suffer from your feeding requirments.

Doesnt matter if it can be done, why risk it, do you expect the rest of the hobby to follow and support this? I have to say , I wouldnt be lining up to buy any of your nutrient deprived mantids............


----------



## angelofdeathzz

Thank you BT!!! and very well put...I couldn't agree more. But he would only try and feed a Iguana hot dogs and raw meat to see what happens, disgusting!!!


----------



## Paradoxica

"Troll (Internet), an internet term for a person who, through willful action, attempts to disrupt a community or garner attention and controversy through provocative messages" -Wikipedia


----------



## sinensispsyched

Precisely.


----------



## brancsikia339

Killing mantids for experimentation! NOT COOL. Don't change nature and please STOP. The poor mantis!


----------



## happy1892

Bug Trader said:


> Go get an iguana or something that wont suffer from your feeding requirments.


How about cockroaches? They breed fast and are easier to keep, I mean many of them. If you kill many roaches it is much better than many mantids to me.


brancsikia339 said:


> Killing mantids for experimentation! NOT COOL. Don't change nature and please STOP. The poor mantis!


Kayimbo are you going to let them die? Can you tell when they are weak from when they are strong and well? You do not need to let them die by not having enough nutrition.


----------



## wrenae

I can't believe I read the whole thing!

I can't believe that I actually feel compelled to contribute to this discussion!

It certainly has stirred up emotions... but it has also really brought up some interesting points to ponder:

- what exactly IS the nutritional make-up of a mantid's diet?

- how small could a robot possibly be?

- what are the evolutionary implications of changing the diet within a species?

- Is Kayimbo a troll?

We have been forced to explore our emotions and our ethics!

Here is something I found interesting! Over the past 18 months, through this hobby, I have learned the scientific names for several types of mantids, and 2 types of fruit flies. My interest in insects and arachnids over many years has led to me learning other scientific names for invertebrates ... but I didn't recognize the recipe ingredient _Gryllidae_, even though I feed and care for some on a daily basis! (before I feed them to my non-vegan mantid.)


----------



## angelofdeathzz

Yeah this post got like 6 more pages worth of posts than it should have!!! Whats next "hey guys I'm going to feed my mantis only chocolate pudding" for pete's sake... :angry:


----------



## sinensispsyched

angelofdeathzz said:


> Yeah this post got like 6 more pages worth of posts than it should have!!! Whats next "hey guys I'm going to feed my mantis only chocolate pudding" for pete's sake... :angry:


Hahaha! Notice that he hasn't even posted in any other threads....


----------



## SomeWhiteGuy

Well maybe try flavorless jello with the vitamins in powder form mixed in and then make it into small chunks thread string in it pop it into the freezer so it is a little more solid then dangle in front of mantis tada XD


----------



## alan2296

Despite the points given from everybody I like the idea. And I agree with Orin it is not impossible, repashy has made a gel mix for carnivorious reptiles and amphibians. And guys mantids don't only eat live insects, my first mantis decided that he liked dead flies, Brancsikia339 can agree with me when I say this, and he lived to adulthood. The mantis wasn't starving or anything, he would just strike at dead flies then start eating them. I mean he had a few living flies just to be safe. But this jelly like thing would need to have something involving flies, crickets, etc. otherwise the mantis probably won't get enough nutrients and then die.

And guys he said he would accept the fact that he will probably lose some mantids in this experiment he didn't say that he would kill the mantids, some of you guys are being a little over dramatic don't you think? How do you guys think people came up with medicine?? They used test subjects and I'm sure a lot of them died. But they still accomplished something. And I understand that he may not be a doctor but my point is that if something good could come out of it why not try?? I mean it may not work, but it is seriously not the end of the world if one or 2 mantids die. I mean I wouldn't like having the mantis die either, but who knows maybe he will figure something out and people who don't feel comfortable feeding live food can finally keep mantids.

However, I wouldn't try this with my mantids. I'm too new to the hobby that I am just sticking to the facts I have read.


----------



## happy1892

alan2296 said:


> Despite the points given from everybody I like the idea. And I agree with Orin it is not impossible, repashy has made a gel mix for carnivorious reptiles and amphibians. And guys mantids don't only eat live insects, my first mantis decided that he liked dead flies, Brancsikia339 can agree with me when I say this, and he lived to adulthood. The mantis wasn't starving or anything, he would just strike at dead flies then start eating them. I mean he had a few living flies just to be safe. But this jelly like thing would need to have something involving flies, crickets, etc. otherwise the mantis probably won't get enough nutrients and then die.


I think Orin was talking about making the food without any animals in it. Yes, mantids will eat dead things (but I think it has to get their attention somehow).


alan2296 said:


> And guys he said he would accept the fact that he will probably lose some mantids in this experiment he didn't say that he would kill the mantids, some of you guys are being a little over dramatic don't you think? How do you guys think people came up with medicine?? They used test subjects and I'm sure a lot of them died. But they still accomplished something. And I understand that he may not be a doctor but my point is that if something good could come out of it why not try?? I mean it may not work, but it is seriously not the end of the world if one or 2 mantids die. I mean I wouldn't like having the mantis die either, but who knows maybe he will figure something out and people who don't feel comfortable feeding live food can finally keep mantids.
> 
> However, I wouldn't try this with my mantids. I'm too new to the hobby that I am just sticking to the facts I have read.


LOL! It would not be good if people were killed by those tests... I would use rabbits. I do not think they have to die. If they are starving that means it did not worked right? Then you could feed them back to health then do something else.


----------



## Peter Clausen

I read maybe half the posts in this thread. It's gotten long.

Just wanted to say very quickly that I'm 100% behind your experiment with mantises and a vegan diet, Kayimbo. Like I've said so many times before, we're all hypocrites for keeping a mantis in captivity in the first place, and choosing what and when it eats. You go, Kayimbo! You are so obviously not a troll from post #1. I'm sure many of these mantis hobbyists take better care of their mantises than the average American takes care of their children. Look at the health food industry. How much of that stuff is natural? We didn't evolve to eat even a fraction of the stuff we eat, but we're all doing just fine, living longer (on average). Orin made some excellent points along the way here. I'm sure there were others, but I hate to see a thread go a bad way when a little science is being done in the midst of so many hypocrites. There used to a lot more science on this forum, but not necessarily less bickering. Comes with the territory. Keep up the good work.


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## Sublime64tothe42

I never thought I would hear of a vegan keeping a wild animal in captivity? Vegans don't eat bee pollen nor honey due to the cruelty of the entire process, (this is coming from a vegan friend of mine) i don't see any cruelty being done in this line of work, Any who, aren't vegans 110% for letting all animals run free and don't use them for any of their sources nor keep them from being in their natural ways? Correct me if I am wrong, but I got these impressions from 2 family members and 1 good friend who all happen to be vegan.


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## lancaster1313

@ sublime: I thought the same thing about the vegan lifestyle but the creator of the topic is not a vegan. It is just an experiment.

Personally: I like the idea of some sort of pelleted diet for predatory insects,(just not a vegan one, I couldn't imagine a life without animal protein).

I would still feed live and think it is best, but in an emergency, predatory bug chow could come in handy.


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## happy1892

Peter Clausen said:


> I read maybe half the posts in this thread. It's gotten long.
> 
> Just wanted to say very quickly that I'm 100% behind your experiment with mantises and a vegan diet, Kayimbo. Like I've said so many times before, we're all hypocrites for keeping a mantis in captivity in the first place, and choosing what and when it eats. You go, Kayimbo! You are so obviously not a troll from post #1. I'm sure many of these mantis hobbyists take better care of their mantises than the average American takes care of their children. Look at the health food industry. How much of that stuff is natural? We didn't evolve to eat even a fraction of the stuff we eat, but we're all doing just fine, living longer (on average). Orin made some excellent points along the way here. I'm sure there were others, but I hate to see a thread go a bad way when a little science is being done in the midst of so many hypocrites. There used to a lot more science on this forum, but not necessarily less bickering. Comes with the territory. Keep up the good work.


Hehehe.  I do not think it is bad to do this Kayimbo. I think it will be hard to do though. It is weird hahaha! Petter Clausen I have heard that at one time a long time ago people used to live about 35 years on average! But people would live longer if they ate healthy. &lt;_&lt; LOL I could not keep my mantids! Oh, I would not say we are doing just fine eating stuff like that you know. I cannot think how this could work but Orin said it could work or maybe he said maybe (I know nothing about making something like this). Everybody is a hypocrites anyway right?


Sublime64tothe42 said:


> I never thought I would hear of a vegan keeping a wild animal in captivity? Vegans don't eat bee pollen nor honey due to the cruelty of the entire process, (this is coming from a vegan friend of mine) i don't see any cruelty being done in this line of work, Any who, aren't vegans 110% for letting all animals run free and don't use them for any of their sources nor keep them from being in their natural ways? Correct me if I am wrong, but I got these impressions from 2 family members and 1 good friend who all happen to be vegan.


 &lt;_&lt; I do not think he is vagen like likebugs. Maybe he said he was not? I forgot. 110% is very funny to me LOL! :clown:


likebugs said:


> @ sublime: I thought the same thing about the vegan lifestyle but the creator of the topic is not a vegan. It is just an experiment.
> 
> Personally: I like the idea of some sort of pelleted diet for predatory insects,(just not a vegan one, I couldn't imagine a life without animal protein).
> 
> I would still feed live and think it is best, but in an emergency, predatory bug chow could come in handy.


Yeah, you are right. Maybe you could freeze flies, roaches, crickets and whatever they eat and then take them out and let them melt and feed them to the mantids when it is an emergency (but it would be hard I guess. Oh! Put them on a robot that moves or something like that and it might be a piece of cake.).


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## ismart

likebugs said:


> @ sublime: I thought the same thing about the vegan lifestyle but the creator of the topic is not a vegan. It is just an experiment.
> 
> Personally: I like the idea of some sort of pelleted diet for predatory insects,(just not a vegan one, I couldn't imagine a life without animal protein).
> 
> I would still feed live and think it is best, but in an emergency, predatory bug chow could come in handy.


I agree with 100%. I would only use some thing like this in an emergency.

Even if a mantis jelly, or what ever you want to call it was created. You would still have to manipulate it for the mantids to take interest strike, and start eating. Or you could place it to the mantids mouth, and hope it takes it and eats. The point i'm trying make is this would be just as time consuming, or even more time consuming then throwing a live fly, or cricket into the enclosure.


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## brancsikia339

ismart said:


> Even if a mantis jelly, or what ever you want to call it was created. You would still have to manipulate it for the mantids to take interest strike, and start eating. Or you could place it to the mantids mouth, and hope it takes it and eats. The point i'm trying make is this would be just as time consuming, or even more time consuming then throwing a live fly, or cricket into the enclosure.


This.

Its not all about what you're feeding the mantis, it's how it's going to be eating it.


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## happy1892

brancsikia339 said:


> This.
> 
> Its not all about what you're feeding the mantis, it's how it's going to be eating it.


He said he wanted to make a small machine that might get the interest of the mantis.


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## Morbo

idahomantid said:


> 4 tablespoons of pureed Gryllidae.


I like this idea. Forget the other ingredients. The OP can get some crickets, kill them, make them into a paste, and smoother the paste onto a tiny robot that will get the mantid's attention.


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## alan2296

happy1892 said:


> He said he wanted to make a small machine that might get the interest of the mantis.


the problem with that is that the mantis would (if the machine is small enough) eat it. it would have to be very big and too hard to chew, and mantids have very strong mouths/jaws(?)(idk how to say it whoops)


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## brancsikia339

alan2296 said:


> the problem with that is that the mantis would (if the machine is small enough) eat it. it would have to be very big and too hard to chew, and mantids have very strong mouths/jaws(?)(idk how to say it whoops)


And a mantis' jaws wouldn't be able to tear apart a metal machine.


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## alan2296

brancsikia339 said:


> And a mantis' jaws wouldn't be able to tear apart a metal machine.


my point exactly so now the question is how would u make something that a mantis can not eat


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## lancaster1313

It seems as if a person will have to spend time with many mantids, persuading them to feed.

I have noticed that when I mist mantids, many will try to lap up the drops from almost any surface.

If that surface was palatable enough, they may feed on it.

It may not be what we think is the natural way of things, but I am sure that many have experienced mantids lapping up honey or sweets without having the mantids striking or grasping at a prey item. Many of my mantids will willingly lap up honey from my finger without any striking or grasping. They just lick it up.

Why would they behave in such a docile way if their only way to feed was a predatory way? This is a question that can start a good experiment, in my opinion.

It would still be a useful experiment if, mantids can actually thrive on such a diet.

They have geckos lapping up a staple diet, Why not mantids?

It is all in the opinion of hobbyists.

Some prefer natural, and some want to get things done in other ways.

When I was a kid, I had never heard of feeding dead and thawed out mice or fish to snakes. Now, some are just fine with feeding only dead prey. Maybe I should only feed my Royal python "live rodents directly from Africa" instead of our mice or rats. That is what they may prefer, isn't it?

I like to feed my snake both live and dead, depending on what is more convenient for me at the time. I like to please them with live prey, if that even makes a difference to them, I will never know.

I am only human, and many pets, even cats and dogs, have adapted to their particular status and feeding requirements.


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## happy1892

alan2296 said:


> my point exactly so now the question is how would u make something that a mantis can not eat


No, he said the mantis would't be able to not be able to tear apart a metal thing and I am pretty sure there is not mantis that could chew a metal thing (not very thin metal). What I want to know is if the mantis would get hurt trying to chew the metal?


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## preying mantis

I have had slight success coaxing my mantis into eating a morsel of chicken by holding it to its mouth. Not sure if it would work with vegan foodstuffs.

Either way, this is just an absurd concept. Praying mantises are the strictest of carnivores. Either feed them their natural food or let them go.


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## happy1892

preying mantis said:


> I have had slight success coaxing my mantis into eating a morsel of chicken by holding it to its mouth. Not sure if it would work with vegan foodstuffs.
> 
> Either way, this is just an absurd concept. Praying mantises are the strictest of carnivores. Either feed them their natural food or let them go.


Hehehe. Do you think it is possible to make this food?


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