# A guide to making FF (Fruit Fly) cultures



## packer43064 (Jan 14, 2011)

Hi everyone. I made this exact thread in another forum where I frequent daily. I'm not sure if linking to another site is ideal or against forum policies so I just made one here and changed a few words here and there. PM for the original I made which to tell you the truth it's nothing different besides like 5 words. lol I hope I can help some people out if possible. It's really NOT hard to make cultures. I make between 5-10 cultures every Sunday. I have wingless and flightless mels along with curly wing and turkish gliders. All i need now is Hydei and golden Hydei. I like a variety, plus it's fun to experiment with all of them. With the two new chinese ooths I have now, Hydei will be needed.

This is a guide on how I culture FF's. It can be done in MANY ways. This is just one way that works for me. Experimenting is key in making cultures. Hopefully this will be a start for new mantis owners who will be culturing FF's.

First off reach into your box of 240 cups/lids (32 oz.) and get some for making the cultures. What, you don't have 240 of them just lying around.  







Get out your media. I use this simple recipe.

6 parts instant potato flakes

1 part brewers yeast

1 part powdered sugar

It's very simple but works, for beginners simple is key. This can be made when you make cultures or made beforehand and put into ziploc bags like I have done. Even put in the freezer if wanted.






Use a half of cup of media per container. This will double when you add the liquid.











You will want to add the liquid now to the container of media. I use 1/2 cup of warm water and 1/4 cup of vinegar. Use warm or boiling water, it will make everything mix much better. The vinegar is a mold inhibitor. Methyl Paraben can also be used to prevent mold. It's available at many online websites. It's a powder. I have ordered some, but if you don't want to buy it vinegar is another solution to mold.


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## packer43064 (Jan 14, 2011)

The warm water and vinegar.






Normal cheap vinegar is all you need.






Just poured in liquids.






After your stir it a bit it will look like this.






Your fancy stirrin' tool.  






This what you want the media to look like after stirring for awhile. Takes less than 3 minutes to stir them. I also push the media down a bit to make it more level. Also if you look at the pic earlier with the dry media, it has doubled since then.






The flies will need something to crawl on (you will have hundreds when it starts booming) so they don't just walk all over each other. There are many options for this. Excelsior is what I use. Coffee filters would be the second most used, but there are other options out there. I wouldn't mind using coffee filters or at least trying them out, just hasn't happened yet. If you do use filters, use more than a couple. Think over 5 at least folded up. For excelsior though take some out and make it into a loose ball. It doesn't need to be big, at all. Too much and your just wasting it. Just push it down a bit into the container with the media. Not alot, just so it won't move when feeding out the flies to your mantids.


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## packer43064 (Jan 14, 2011)

After this I microwave them w/lid. This is mainly because there are things called mites, they can and will destroy your FF cultures and turn them into duds. I don't microwave for more than a minute tops for one. Two minutes for 4 cultures is usually good. Your just trying to kill any mites that MAY be in your media ingredients to start with. Your not cooking here, just nuking them for a bit. Let them cool for a bit after this.

After cooled proceed with the following.

Next add dry active baker's yeast to the culture. The flies will eat this and it's just good for the culture. NOT ALOT, just a small small pinch. Were talking 20 grain tops.






Next after this is adding the flies from an already booming culture. I didn't take pics. It's pretty simple after you make a few. Tap the established culture on the ground so the flies fall and take off the lid. The flies will climb to the top. Simply tip the established culture over the new culture and when they start to crawl out tap them into your new culture. Keep tapping them on the ground so none climb out if needed then close the lids on both when your done. 50 flies is a good number to start a new culture with. I just guess really, you will get used to it.

After this it is good to put the date/what type of FF are in each culture.






After a couple of days you will start to notice that the top layer of media is a different color. If you look closer you will see the larva wiggling around. I reuse FF cups thus the random label.






I made this on 12/26 so a week and a half later you will notice that the larva will turn to pupa on the sides of the container.






A week later and your culture is ready to feed out!!!!!!!!

Just some tips on mites. Their life cycle of a mite is around a month so it is good to throw cultures away after 4-5 weeks so you don't have a huge explosion of them. Mite are everywhere, you will get mites sooner or later. It happens, but if you notice one with mites isolate them into a different place than where you normally keep your cultures at. Some things to stop them getting into all of your cultures is mite paper which can be bought at alot of places online.

This is mite paper underneath the cultures.






Also mite spray (bird version) can be sprayed on paper towels. You then put your cultures on the paper towel to hinder the mites.






Well I think that's it. I didn't cover everything, but it should be a good start for a beginner making FF cultures. These cultures were wingless melanogaster.

If you have questions ask away or PM, and if you want the original PM me. Hopefully this helps.

Sorry it's sooooo long. I made it into one big post, but it said I had too many pics allowed so I had to do multiple posts.


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## lancaster1313 (Jan 14, 2011)

I like it. It seems simpler than the methods I have read about before.  I will definitely be trying it, because I have been paying mad money for cultures at my local exotics store.


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## GreenOasis (Jan 14, 2011)

The nuking of the culture just prior to adding the yeast is a good tip...I will have to try that! In addition to killing mite eggs, I'm thinking it might be a great way to kill wild mold spores (often found on the excelsior, which is why I stopped using excelsior recently).

Still going to stick with my cider vinegar, though, as I have definitely noticed an increase in population/breeding speed by using it.

Is 1 minute in the microwave a bit much, though? How many cultures are you nuking for a minute on high? Just wondering if I should make the medium a little soupy at first to account for "boiling off" in the microwave!

Edit: You've probably already seen this, but here's my thread on the subject: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19445&amp;st=0


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## packer43064 (Jan 14, 2011)

likebugs said:


> I like it. It seems simpler than the methods I have read about before.  I will definitely be trying it, because I have been paying mad money for cultures at my local exotics store.


Simple is the way to go. FF cups are cheap, less than 50 cents easily and using 1/2 cup of media can be under 25 cents easily. The brewers yeast is what will get you, but that can be bought in bulk or had at cheaper sites then a retail store. You'll be saving money in no time. B) 

EDIT: Also the FF cups are easily reuseable so all your really paying for is the media per container.


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## packer43064 (Jan 14, 2011)

GreenOasis said:


> The nuking of the culture just prior to adding the yeast is a good tip...I will have to try that! In addition to killing mite eggs, I'm thinking it might be a great way to kill wild mold spores (often found on the excelsior, which is why I stopped using excelsior recently).
> 
> Still going to stick with my cider vinegar, though, as I have definitely noticed an increase in population/breeding speed by using it.
> 
> ...


It'll kill those mold spores too! Variation is good, I'll try the cider vinegar one time.

I don't use high that's too much. For 1 culture I usually do a minute or so. For 4 cultures (the microwave only holds 4 really) I do 2 minutes or so. It shouldn't be boiling. The culture shouldn't get dry or anything since the flies will lay eggs in under a week and te larva will defecate and move through it making it wetter. Adding in more water though is fine. The 1/2 cup of warm water and 1/4 vinegar is a guideline. I've added more and it works out still.

Edit: I scanned over your thread, nice read. One thing I noticed is that if your having problems with Hydei it's more than likey because their life cycle is around 30 days. Unlike the mels were theirs is around 14 days so it takes much longer to get things going. Also unlike the other FF kinds out there they produce one sex at first hatch so if your making new cultures with new booming Hydei's then your putting in the same sex. Better to wait a week then making new cultures from a booming culture. I have a link about it if I can ever find it in my bookmarks again.


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## GreenOasis (Jan 14, 2011)

Hey, I sell that brewers' yeast in bulk on my site: www.mantispets.weebly.com $5.00/lb (that'll last you FOREVER!) And if you REALLY NEED more than a pound at a time, well...I can cut ya' a "bulk" deal, too!


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## hibiscusmile (Jan 14, 2011)

Still a lot of money for the yeast! Be careful with the excelsior in the microwave, it will ignite if to hot, ask someone who knows :lol:


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## Insect-lover (Jan 14, 2011)

GreenOasis said:


> Hey, I sell that brewers' yeast in bulk on my site: www.mantispets.weebly.com $5.00/lb (that'll last you FOREVER!) And if you REALLY NEED more than a pound at a time, well...I can cut ya' a "bulk" deal, too!


Edit: Nevermind.


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## Insect-lover (Jan 14, 2011)

Jeff Parker said:


> After this I microwave them w/lid. This is mainly because there are things called mites, they can and will destroy your FF cultures and turn them into duds. I don't microwave for more than a minute tops for one. Two minutes for 4 cultures is usually good. Your just trying to kill any mites that MAY be in your media ingredients to start with. Your not cooking here, just nuking them for a bit. Let them cool for a bit after this.
> 
> After cooled proceed with the following.
> 
> ...


Well, i need to learn to read, :huh: , nevermind what i asked.


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## Rick (Jan 15, 2011)

That is a take on what I have been doing for years. The only difference is that I use commercial medium that includes mold inhibitor. I also don't microwave anything. I use just a tiny bit of excelsior. I find that too much makes getting the flies out difficult. For a long time I used none at all and it didn't seem to make a difference.

The other difference is that I have a hole in the side of the container to tap the flies out. Other than that it is the same thing.


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## packer43064 (Jan 15, 2011)

Insect Lover said:


> Well, i need to learn to read, :huh: , nevermind what i asked.


Not sure what you asked, but lol.  



Rick said:


> That is a take on what I have been doing for years. The only difference is that I use commercial medium that includes mold inhibitor. I also don't microwave anything. I use just a tiny bit of excelsior. I find that too much makes getting the flies out difficult. For a long time I used none at all and it didn't seem to make a difference. The other difference is that I have a hole in the side of the container to tap the flies out. Other than that it is the same thing.


Sweet, all is good then. This isn't a ground breaking scientific method, just something that works. Glad you agreed with it and could input some info that you do personally.

Never had mites? I've never had them, but I did get a really really bad culture from Joshsfrogs that were crawling with mites. They were everywhere! So after that I don't screw around with those things.


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## hibiscusmile (Jan 15, 2011)

You should post that under his feedback, the mites were huge, wern't they? I know mine were, could see them with me naked eye! :lol:


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## geckoboy3 (Jan 15, 2011)

hibiscusmile said:


> You should post that under his feedback, the mites were huge, wern't they? I know mine were, could see them with me naked eye! :lol:


Wow, I don't pay enough attention to mites. Springtails, I can see, though.  

Oh and great guide!


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## packer43064 (Jan 15, 2011)

hibiscusmile said:


> You should post that under his feedback, the mites were huge, wern't they? I know mine were, could see them with me naked eye! :lol:


I ordered Hydei and wingless mels like 2 months back. The mels were great and have alot of cultures of those now. The Hydei were filled with mites near the top of the media. You could see them move around and everything. I tossed them both. Members on another forum I visit daily said they had mite issues with joshs Hydei too. They weren't producing cultures either so the mites were in the media when made or just walked right in there or on the bodies from the flies put in.



hisseman said:


> Wow, I don't pay enough attention to mites. Springtails, I can see, though.  Oh and great guide!


Thanks alot.


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## Rick (Jan 16, 2011)

Jeff Parker said:


> Not sure what you asked, but lol.
> 
> Sweet, all is good then. This isn't a ground breaking scientific method, just something that works. Glad you agreed with it and could input some info that you do personally.
> 
> Never had mites? I've never had them, but I did get a really really bad culture from Joshsfrogs that were crawling with mites. They were everywhere! So after that I don't screw around with those things.


I had mites ONE time. Probably back in 04 I think. I tend to get some flies from one place and keep breeding them for many months. So other than that one time it has never been an issue. I would avoid his cultures if you had that problem. I will now as well.


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## hibiscusmile (Jan 16, 2011)

Now that I think about it, the little bug running around on the screen Rick, is the size of his mites when I finally thru it away! :huh: yuck, poo, nasty!


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## cuervo (Jan 16, 2011)

Well helps me. I'm new and i like it, specially the pictures reading comprehension challenge :stuart:


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## Katnapper (Jan 16, 2011)

Great basic fruit fly culture guide. Very similar to how I do ff cultures also.


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## packer43064 (Jan 17, 2011)

cuervo said:


> Well helps me. I'm new and i like it, specially the pictures reading comprehension challenge :stuart:


Pictures explain alot.



Katnapper said:


> Great basic fruit fly culture guide. Very similar to how I do ff cultures also.


  Awesome.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 17, 2011)

As Becky (Katnapper) says, this is a great basic fruit fly guide, and the pix are always a plus.

You have proven that his mix is adequate for raising fruit flies.

I wonder, though, if you aren't using too much vinegar. I tried proofing active yeast -- a pinch plus a pinch of sugar in a warm solution -- in plain warm water and with a mixture of 1/3 white vinegar and 2/3 warm water which you recommend. As I write this, the suspension in plain water has proofed and that in vinegar and water has only produced two bubbles of CO2. Of course, I did not try it in your mixture, but I wonder if so much vinegar does not lower the pH to a point that the yeast eiither does not ferment or does so only slowly/partially. Also, while, as you say, the yeast is eaten by the flies, it is an essential food for the larvae, so I wonder if the combination of low pH and tiny amount of yeast do not limit the total hatch. I should add that I successfully raised FFs using the same amount of yeast that you recommend (though not nearly as much vinegar), but raising ithe amount to between 12.5% and 20% of the dry weight greatly increases the hatch.

This is your thread, of course, but I wonder if we couldn't have a number of members' favorite formulae submitted to an arbitrator, say Peter J.F. (ha! gotcha mate!), to compare the hatches yielded by the different mixes. I would expect that mine would yield the most, but it is also the most expensive per cup, and might not prove cost effective. What do you think?


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## packer43064 (Jan 17, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> As Becky (Katnapper) says, this is a great basic fruit fly guide, and the pix are always a plus. You have proven that his mix is adequate for raising fruit flies.I wonder, though, if you aren't using too much vinegar. I tried proofing active yeast -- a pinch plus a pinch of sugar in a warm solution -- in plain warm water and with a mixture of 1/3 white vinegar and 2/3 warm water which you recommend. As I write this, the suspension in plain water has proofed and that in vinegar and water has only produced two bubbles of CO2. Of course, I did not try it in your mixture, but I wonder if so much vinegar does not lower the pH to a point that the yeast eiither does not ferment or does so only slowly/partially. Also, while, as you say, the yeast is eaten by the flies, it is an essential food for the larvae, so I wonder if the combination of low pH and tiny amount of yeast do not limit the total hatch. I should add that I successfully raised FFs using the same amount of yeast that you recommend (though not nearly as much vinegar), but raising ithe amount to between 12.5% and 20% of the dry weight greatly increases the hatch.This is your thread, of course, but I wonder if we couldn't have a number of members' favorite formulae submitted to an arbitrator, say Peter J.F. (ha! gotcha mate!), to compare the hatches yielded by the different mixes. I would expect that mine would yield the most, but it is also the most expensive per cup, and might not prove cost effective. What do you think?


Honestly I looked for a recipe that was simple yet effective. I'm a member on a dart frog forum and the recipe in the guide (from dart site) seemed the easiest. There were loads of different recipes which involved juice and boiling ingredients and all kinds of extras. There's a point where spending a dollar per culture and doing all these special ways of making the media which takes even longer per culture to make when I can make my simple recipe in minutes per culture and if my production is low I can easily make two if I had to. With that being said, I do think I am using too much vinegar. I know because when I walk in the bug room there are 24 cultures going. That is 6 cups of vinegar total. I like the vinegar smell actually, but it is pretty strong. How much do you use? I'm thinking about just getting some Methyl Paraben and just do away with the vinegar. Alot of sponsors on the dart site uses it. Isn't that expensive either.

Another thing is I have no clue if my cultures produce well or not compared to other recipes. There seems to be a ton of them when they hatch and so on until about the 5th week then I trash them, but there's nothing to compare it to. I think I need to do some experiments with "better" recipes and see if there is a difference. Also you said you add more yeast, the active right? How much or do you mean the brewers yeast.


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## hibiscusmile (Jan 18, 2011)

I make so many cultures a week, I should be good at it, I continually have to fix it. I say go with what u know. I bad! :blink: After reading this I decided to try vinegar again, I don't know why, just did, made some last night, whining the whole time, It does not take forever, but I felt like complaining. I made 15 I think. I don't measure anymore, after all these years, it is not that I can't measure, I just never do. I use brewers yeast, and also sell it for 2.50 a lb. and calcium propionate which I also sell, but I digress.... sometimes I also forget to put something in if I am tired or the hubby is yacking at me.... I not perfect, even though you guys think I am.... :lol: . What I am trying to say, (but I don't wanna get up and go to work, so am wasting time typing) is if what you are doing works, continue on!


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## packer43064 (Jan 19, 2011)

It does work, so I'll stick with it. You think calcium propionate is better than Methyl Paraben? I've looked online for the calcium propionate and couldn't find it for cheap.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 20, 2011)

Jeff Parker said:


> It does work, so I'll stick with it. You think calcium propionate is better than Methyl Paraben? I've looked online for the calcium propionate and couldn't find it for cheap.


I use only methyl paraben -1TBS for 71/2 cups of food, but when I worked in a university fly lab, many years ago, we used both together (actually, propionic acid). If you get no mold with one, why add a second? Labs never use vinegar to my knowledge, either as an egg laying stimulus or mould retarder. As I think Rebecca might have been saying, :lol: if you come up with a formula that works to your satisfaction, stick with it, but it is not a bad idea to try several formulae before settling on the one you like.

I have never seen a lab formula with active yeast that uses less than 12.5% (1/8) and it iwill give the most dramatic increase in fly yield. It's a bit expensive, though, and I use 1 cup to 51/2 cups of other ingredients (4 cups potato flakes, 1/2 cup casein [animal protein] 1/2 cup sugar [to feed the growing yeast] and 1/2 cup brewer's yeast [essential amino acids]) This gives me a 15% yeast by volume mix, and I add a "scant" TBS of paraben.

A lot of folks, including Orin in his sticky, recommend starting the yeast culture on an apple slice, some "swear" by massa flour, but if you ever follow an academioc protocol you learn to be able to justify everything you use. I never designed formulae, of course, and some were depletion diets in which an element deemed vital was deliberately omitted (now you can by them from a supplier) but I learned a lot about both technique and protocols from my drudgery! Oh, BTW, a lot of folks have the mistaken idea that yeast fermentatiion takes a while to get started. It starts as soon as the yeast finds food (sugar, usually( and moisture, but if you are only adding a few grains, it will take a while before the ffs notice. The reason for using too little yeast may be that if you use a lot and mix it well into the formula, it will cause large ammounts of CO2 to be formed quite quickly, and if not allowed to vent, can stun and then kill the ffs as a member found out a while back. Using cotton wool bungs instead of foam ones helps. I personall let it sit over night befor introducing the flies.

I would add that while the emphasis in formulating FF food has been on the number and vigor of the flies produced, some Scandivian researchers have found that animal protein used in the food, in their case, ground dog food (25% protein) and in my feed, casein, has a measurable tritrophic effect. ie, it benefits the predators that eat the fliesthat ate the protein as larvae. They used slowly developing wolf spiders which suggests that the same benefits may obtain with mantids.


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## hibiscusmile (Jan 20, 2011)

I sell the calcium, but it is not on site, must email me for pricing.... [email protected]... sorry


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## packer43064 (Feb 2, 2011)

cuervo said:


> Well helps me. I'm new and i like it, specially the pictures reading comprehension challenge :stuart:


  



Katnapper said:


> Great basic fruit fly culture guide. Very similar to how I do ff cultures also.


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## Mr.Mantid (Feb 22, 2011)

I think I used a similar formula a year ago. I used oatmeal, vinegar, motts applesauce and a pinch of brewers yeast. I might have added sugar but I can not say for sure. I did not use any specific ratio.I used a flask for the container and to my suprise the drosophila melanogaster culture lasted for 4-5 mos. ( I have heard that flask containers normally do not do well for culturing fruit flys.)I had created two drosophila hydei cultures but they did not grow at all, although I only used a few hydei flys so it may not be the culture to blame, rather the lack of flys or perhaps an unknown variable.


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## Ricardo (Mar 30, 2011)

How do you extract them without them flying everywhere?

Also how long will it take for the fruit flies to form?


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## Mr.Mantid (Mar 30, 2011)

Ricardo said:


> How do you extract them without them flying everywhere?
> 
> Also how long will it take for the fruit flies to form?


Most people culture flightless fruit fly cultures which can be purchased practically anywhere online.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 30, 2011)

Mr.Mantid said:


> Most people culture flightless fruit fly cultures which can be purchased practically anywhere online.


Yeah, I have some on order now, but I rather like to use "wild" mels in 12"cubes, because they distribute better and are more fecund. You can calm them down by putting their deli cup in the fridge for a few minutes (check, first time, to see how many minutes it takes to immobilize 'em). I pour mine in through a funnel, but some folks prefer to just open the lid of the nymphs' pot.

If you want to buy the wild type, you can get pupae very reasonably from Chuck at SpiderPharm.


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## Mr.Mantid (Mar 31, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> Yeah, I have some on order now, but I rather like to use "wild" mels in 12"cubes, because they distribute better and are more fecund. You can calm them down by putting their deli cup in the fridge for a few minutes (check, first time, to see how many minutes it takes to immobilize 'em). I pour mine in through a funnel, but some folks prefer to just open the lid of the nymphs' pot.
> 
> If you want to buy the wild type, you can get pupae very reasonably from Chuck at SpiderPharm.


I've been trying to culture mels, and hydeis for the past two weeks. So far I have noticed mel. larvae but no hydei yet. The late winter we have had is not helping with ideal breeding temps :angry: I've been buying cultures like crazy too but they don't seem to last long. I have flat stomached mantids; I should have waited til at least mid-april before I got back in the mantis hobby.


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