# Experience with Afican dealer



## Fisherman_Brazil (Mar 25, 2009)

I am told this is Hemiempusa spp.. Am I a fool again?


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Mar 25, 2009)




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## bassist (Mar 25, 2009)

First image looks like a Pseudocreobotra sp to me :\ but I could be wrong.


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## Morpheus uk (Mar 25, 2009)

Sorry to say that nymph doesnt look at all ike an Empusid to me  

Could it be bug wings?


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## chun (Mar 25, 2009)

both the shape of the ootheca and the hatchling resemble a Parasphendale species (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2110/2530720401_173db01be8.jpg). It's definitely not a Pseudocreobotra, their ootheca and hatchlings look very disimilar to these.


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## Morpheus uk (Mar 25, 2009)

Thats what i was going to say but i didnt know how to spell Parasphendale :lol:


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## lectricblueyes (Mar 25, 2009)

Hmm... how did you meet the African Dealer? Did he send you an email like this:

Dear Sir/Mam,

Please permit me to make your acquaintance in so informal a manner. This is necessitated by my urgent need to reach a dependable and trust wordy foreign partner. This request may seem strange and unsolicited but I will crave your indulgence and pray that you view it seriously. The great King Mantida of Nigeria, Africa has died and he has left behind a great wealth of Ootheca. We are in need of your help for transferring these Ootheca out of the country before the government finds them!

Sir. Doctor Patrick Othecia

Financial Assistant to King Mantida


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## bassist (Mar 25, 2009)

chun said:


> both the shape of the ootheca and the hatchling resemble a Parasphendale species (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2110/2530720401_173db01be8.jpg). It's definitely not a Pseudocreobotra, their ootheca and hatchlings look very disimilar to these.


Yeah looks like a Parasphendale sp didn't look close enough at the first photo.


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## Rick (Mar 25, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> Hmm... how did you meet the African Dealer? Did he send you an email like thisear Sir/Mam,
> 
> Please permit me to make your acquaintance in so informal a manner. This is necessitated by my urgent need to reach a dependable and trust wordy foreign partner. This request may seem strange and unsolicited but I will crave your indulgence and pray that you view it seriously. The great King Mantida of Nigeria, Africa has died and he has left behind a great wealth of Ootheca. We are in need of your help for transferring these Ootheca out of the country before the government finds them!
> 
> ...


Ha ha :lol:


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 25, 2009)

Quick (sorry Luke) someone give Lectric a cigar, Rick actually laughed... hahaha sorry Rick!


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 25, 2009)

They look a lot like the budwing, but even more ooths look like the Centrallis ooths I got, baby looks to dark though, where is Christian?


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Mar 26, 2009)

The story goes like this,

1. There were a couple of Afican dealers that I have contact with previously, but never really make any money transfer, because of my insisting shipping first then the money. No deal of curse at first beginning.

2. Then a German ffriend give me a contact information claiming to be a white woman, and trustworthy. Due to my trust to this German gentleman, so I send the money of 600+ US dollars to the African dealer without hesitation. Then, the parcel did come to me, but soon proven to be all empty ooth.

3. I asked for explaination and possible replacement. After painful negociation, the dealer agree to replace since I have documented the received ooth well enough with pictures. The dealer ask my sending 100 for the shiping cost, which I did. Not only that, I actually sent 150, 50 extra as "thank you gift".

4. Two weeks late as the African dealer's promise to receive the replacement ooth. Now, there are some ooth that I really need, namely the Idolomantis, and some other ooth that you have just seen labeled " Hemiempusa spp.".

5. Don't really care these other species as my target is the Idolo. Right after takng picture and examining the ooth, I find out most of them either have vent or hole indicating the possible hatched out or parasited, just like the first batch. Immediately cut open one of each, not surpise, an empty ooth again.

6. I report to the dealer, and ask again for an explaination. But the reply is asking another money payment of US$528.

I really don't know what can I say!


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## Katnapper (Mar 26, 2009)

Oh my, Luke...  That does not sound good at all, and you have sent so much money already!  I have no help to give you, but I hope you do not send more money. I hope not, but I fear someone is trying to swindle you. I feel very angry, and bad for you if that is the case.  Best of luck to you in getting the situation sorted.


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## Rob Byatt (Mar 26, 2009)

They all resemble _Parasphendale_ ootheca and so does the nymph (black with a thickened antennae base).

I would be very surprised if the person even knew what _Hemiempusa_ looks like :angry: 

I doubt you'll see the money again, sorry.


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 26, 2009)

:angry: I wish I knew who also sent me ooths from Africa, mine came in the same condition, only I got my money back, and only because it was from a forum member that I always deal with. When I got the ooths, and discovered they looked the same as u describe Luke, I immeaditly contacted him and he sent it back, a few ooths were even stapled to a container and the staples were already rusted, which ment they were in storage for awhile, I kept them for some reason until just last week and then I trashed them. ps Luke, this is how they keep you sending them money, by promising to make it right, demand your goods and refunds and u will never hear from them again. Because they have nothing to give you.


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## Rick (Mar 26, 2009)

Don't deal with anyone from Africa. Most of the scams going around originate from Africa.


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## revmdn (Mar 26, 2009)

That's a lot of money. I say deal with people you know are reliable, or stick to local species. I t seems like you have some great ones.


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## dafke14 (Mar 26, 2009)

Yeah Luke thats Parasphendale sp.

Same as my ooths and nimph looks the same also.

I was scammed also but only for 150 euro with Tanzanian dealer send him money and after 2 emails no ansewer at all.

Allmost 2 months now

His name is:

Oresh sairo

Box 77941

dar es salaam

Tanzania

+255 787 624 028

So please members do not do business with him if you get in contact with him.

(if you do ask about my money or ooths :lol: )


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 26, 2009)

This site has some updates on buyer bewares (please note administrators, if this post is not allowed, please delete it for me) http://www.terraristik.com/sticklist/black_list.html


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## hibiscusmile (Mar 26, 2009)

Also the same site offers this advice on African dealers and others:

http://www.terraristik.com/sticklist/changes_2005.html


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## dafke14 (Mar 26, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Also the same site offers this advice on African dealers and others:http://www.terraristik.com/sticklist/changes_2005.html


Thats the site where i found this dealer Oresh sairo


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks for all the information and advices. There is nothing wrong to trust people, just have to be careful that not everyone being trustworthy. And sadly, I am not really good at this!

The dealer is still writing to me every few days. I really don't know how to response. Maybe just keep silent. What would you suggest? my friends.


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## tier (Mar 26, 2009)

It does not depend on how you act. He will fool you if he wants to fool you. No matter what you do. This problem is well known since some years.

Be happy you got some Parasphendale, this is better than some other cases.

PS: How should an *african collector * (please dont try to tell me he is a breeder) know anything about the taxonomy? If you not send him a picture of Hemiempusa, how should he know?

Be happy with the Sphodromantis and Parasphendale even its not Idolomantis and Hemiempusa 

PS: You should start to wonder if an african "seller" offers you all species you want, even southamerican and south asian ones. 

Regards


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## tier (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi

What I forgot:

How should an african collector should know that the ooth he is collecting is already 3 years old and in fact empty?

These people are no breeders! Always remember.

PS:

Soon there will be no more Idolomantis ooth in the wild thanks to makeing a quick dollar.

BUY FROM BREEDERS!


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## dafke14 (Mar 26, 2009)

I would advice to send just enough to send youre order and for the dealers expences to collect about 50 euro.

Then if you receive it you send the rest of the money he wants.


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## Christian (Mar 26, 2009)

You can tell the people as often as you want to avoid deals with African collectors; noone listens, everyone knows it better.

Please don't get me wrong, but maybe this was as lesson you had to learn. The next time you will not send any money in advance to any collector of wildcaught specimens. You spent about 650 dollars (if I got it right) in hope to get _Idolomantis_. It would have been much cheaper and safer if you had bought from a breeder. I admit that there aren't many, but this species is available occasionally. The only reason I can imagine why people constantly try to import ooths is that they want to sell most of the hatchlings for a lot of money. Please excuse if I can't really take pity on you (and all the others) in this case. Wild-caught specimens should be, if necessary at all, just for you and not another way of overexploiting nature. You can still sell your own F1-x generations if you should breed the species successfully.

By the way, if you don't know what _Hemiempusa_ looks like, how do you want to explain it to a collector?


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 26, 2009)

Fisherman_Brazil said:


> Thanks for all the information and advices. There is nothing wrong to trust people, just have to be careful that not everyone being trustworthy. And sadly, I am not really good at this!The dealer is still writing to me every few days. I really don't know how to response. Maybe just keep silent. What would you suggest? my friends.


Poor Luke! This is about the only part of your sad story that I can help you with. I suggest a one word reply, and you can choose what you think is the most apropriate language from this short list:

Zulu: Amasimba!

Russian: чёрт!

German: Scheiße!

French: Merde!

Spanish: Mierda!

Thai: Kee! (Oops! Nearly forgot that one!)

Mantid Forum English: ######!

I hope that this helps.


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## dafke14 (Mar 26, 2009)

Christian said:


> You can tell the people as often as you want to avoid deals with African collectors; noone listens, everyone knows it better.Please don't get me wrong, but maybe this was as lesson you had to learn. The next time you will not send any money in advance to any collector of wildcaught specimens. You spent about 650 dollars (if I got it right) in hope to get _Idolomantis_. It would have been much cheaper and safer if you had bought from a breeder. I admit that there aren't many, but this species is available occasionally. The only reason I can imagine why people constantly try to import ooths is that they want to sell most of the hatchlings for a lot of money. Please excuse if I can't really take pity on you (and all the others) in this case. Wild-caught specimens should be, if necessary at all, just for you and not another way of overexploiting nature. You can still sell your own F1-x generations if you should breed the species successfully.
> 
> By the way, if you don't know what _Hemiempusa_ looks like, how do you want to explain it to a collector?


I am verry sorry but you are wrong with this one

My case i can deffend and Luke probably also.

When i have contacted this Oresh Sairo for idolo ooths i only have ordered 3 in order to have at least one hatch as sometimes there are wasps and stuff in it and dont hatch.

He then would reply:

Hi Dave,

minimua order should be 15 pcs of Idolomantis diabolica and other assorted ooths like 9december,brown and green ooths.

Payment can be done through western union money transfer.

So now you can place your carrent order.

The minimum order is 15 for oths because i travel a hundres of miles fo collection so it is not easy to go for 3 pcs only.

hope to hear from you again

best regards

Oresh

You see that not everybody wants to gain big bucks with them as you may think, and i know that Luke is not in for the money just obsessed for this species like most of us do.

Best regards Dave


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## Christian (Mar 26, 2009)

Of course he wants to sell you 15 instead of 3. If he can fraud you with 3 ooths, why not with 15? Obviously there are enough people out there to steal money from.

The point is a different one: to obtain a good amount for oneself, say



> to have at least one hatch


 it is sufficient to order from a breeder. Not only will you save "some" bucks, but you will also get an established stock which performs better under captive conditions. So far, only very few stocks arose from imported ooths. Most vanished already in the first generation due to unknown requirements (as the different stocks seem to differ from each other) or inexperienced breeding skills. This, again, has also been said several times.


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## PhilinYuma (Mar 26, 2009)

Christian said:


> Of course he wants to sell you 15 instead of 3. If he can fraud you with 3 ooths, why not with 15? Obviously there are enough people out there to steal money from.The point is a different one: to obtain a good amount for oneself, say it is sufficient to order from a breeder. Not only will you save "some" bucks, but you will also get an established stock which performs better under captive conditions. So far, only very few stocks arose from imported ooths. Most vanished already in the first generation due to unknown requirements (as the different stocks seem to differ from each other) or inexperienced breeding skills. This, again, has also been said several times.


I think, perhaps, Christian, that you are missing Dafke's point. He is taking exception to your statement, "The only reason I can imagine why people constantly try to import ooths is that they want to sell most of the hatchlings for a lot of money."

It seems evident, to me at least, from Luke's posts on this forum, particularly in the "mantids for sale/trade" section that that he has no such intention.


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Mar 26, 2009)

Christian said:


> You can tell the people as often as you want to avoid deals with African collectors; noone listens, everyone knows it better.Please don't get me wrong, but maybe this was as lesson you had to learn. The next time you will not send any money in advance to any collector of wildcaught specimens. You spent about 650 dollars (if I got it right) in hope to get _Idolomantis_. It would have been much cheaper and safer if you had bought from a breeder. I admit that there aren't many, but this species is available occasionally. The only reason I can imagine why people constantly try to import ooths is that they want to sell most of the hatchlings for a lot of money. Please excuse if I can't really take pity on you (and all the others) in this case. Wild-caught specimens should be, if necessary at all, just for you and not another way of overexploiting nature. You can still sell your own F1-x generations if you should breed the species successfully.
> 
> By the way, if you don't know what _Hemiempusa_ looks like, how do you want to explain it to a collector?


I rather like to beleive Christian did not mean to hurt people as the English being not his mother language.

The fact are:

1. I ordered from Swiss at UD$400 ea, 320 Euro for a couple of from German, and 100 Euro from Poland; the first one did not sent to me because of busy working schedule and returning my check, the second did NOT reach me at all, but returned by the custom to the breeder and then hear no more news ever since; the third one never hatched. All of those people has name.

2. I ordered from African breeder because of my another German friend, who I trust.

3. I did not order anything other than Idolomantis, they send them without my prove/agree, then tlod me that is the Hemiempusa.


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## Christian (Mar 27, 2009)

I see, obviously you weren't really lucky with obtaining them. However, the ooths from Poland were also imported ones (he sold them over here as well), and most of those don't hatch. The price for pairs from Germany and Switzerland were rather high. I can't tell you more without knowing the source. Please write me a PM.


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