# Rubs behind head... then dies?



## BugLover (Jan 19, 2013)

Ok, so i ordered two baby chinese mantises a week or two ago and i found one of them one of them upside down on the floor. he rubbed behind his eyes for 1-2 hours, and then died. Any ideas what could have happened?


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## patrickfraser (Jan 19, 2013)

How old are they? Was it possibly trying to molt? Chinese mantids have a high mortality rate, as well. Maybe you got some "bum" ones?


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## BugLover (Jan 19, 2013)

patrickfraser said:


> How old are they? Was it possibly trying to molt? Chinese mantids have a high mortality rate, as well. Maybe you got some "bum" ones?


I think they were L1-L2? im not sure. the people i ordered from just said that they were about 1 month old.


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## happy1892 (Jan 19, 2013)

Maybe he got too much stress. Wild Chinese Mantids get stressed out in a small container easily but the ones you have are young, the older ones I have caught did not do well in a small container but the young ones (Maybe L2-L4?) seemed to get used to it after some time but the young ones still seem stressed in a small container and they push against the sides of the containers over and over again. One month old is at least L3 I guess. The temperature matters in how fast they grow.


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## Mime454 (Jan 19, 2013)

It's probably more likely than not that a particular L1 or L2 Chinese mantis will die at that instar. Very high infant mortality rate.


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## BugLover (Jan 20, 2013)

happy1892 said:


> Maybe he got too much stress. Wild Chinese Mantids get stressed out in a small container easily but the ones you have are young, the older ones I have caught did not do well in a small container but the young ones (Maybe L2-L4?) seemed to get used to it after some time but the young ones still seem stressed in a small container and they push against the sides of the containers over and over again. One month old is at least L3 I guess. The temperature matters in how fast they grow.


I actually think the container was a little big for him, according to the 3x as tall and 2x as wide thing

And he wasn't wild I ordered it from prayingmantisshop.com


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## sally (Jan 20, 2013)

aww so sorry. hope the other one does ok.


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## angelofdeathzz (Jan 20, 2013)

I think most people find that if you have 10 L2 Chinese you'll be lucky to get 2 or 3 to adult, even if conditions are perfect.


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## angelofdeathzz (Jan 20, 2013)

BugLover said:


> I actually think the container was a little big for him, according to the 3x as tall and 2x as wide thing
> 
> And he wasn't wild I ordered it from prayingmantisshop.com


The 3x tall 2x wide is the minimum not the max, as long as they can find food it's fine, I kept L2-3 Chinese singly in 32oz deli cups which may be 20x tall and they did very well, 6 of 9 made it to sub adult in those, then switched to custom containers for the final molt.


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## Mime454 (Jan 20, 2013)

angelofdeathzz said:


> I think most people find that if you have 10 L2 Chinese you'll be lucky to get 2 or 3 to adult, even if conditions are perfect.


I wonder why they do this. In their native home, is there a lot of variation in environment year to year? Or hatch to hatch? That's the only reason my limited imagination can come up with for the high hatch/death rate. Anyone have any idea why?


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## Malakyoma (Jan 20, 2013)

Mime454 said:


> I wonder why they do this. In their native home, is there a lot of variation in environment year to year? Or hatch to hatch? That's the only reason my limited imagination can come up with for the high hatch/death rate. Anyone have any idea why?


My guess would be an abundance of predators. birds and reptiles and frogs and such. This way all the weaker ones get picked off and buy time for the strong ones to escape.


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## aychen222 (Jan 20, 2013)

Does this mean that inbreeding with this species will strengthen the nymphs that come from each subsequent generation, since the ones that survive will have traits suited for captivity?


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## Reptiliatus (Jan 21, 2013)

Malakyoma said:


> My guess would be an abundance of predators. birds and reptiles and frogs and such. This way all the weaker ones get picked off and buy time for the strong ones to escape.


Although the fittest nymphs have a good chance of escaping predators, the number of hatchlings that emerge from the ootheca have more to do with "having a greater hatch numbers ---&gt; get's more adults to that generation". Natural selection is a process that occurs regardless of this. A species doesn't purposely conceive weak offspring to serve as protection to the strong. Conceiving a large number of nymphs often forfeits qualities such as the strength/health/quality of the offspring. We often see in genus such as Oxyopsis, Phyllocrania, and Creobotra that, while producing lower numbers per ootheca (in general) yield fairly large and strong nymphs from the start. Compare a Heirodula L1 nymph to that same instar of Oxyopsis. You'll see the difference  . While the Hierodula will grow to be a much larger more powerful genus, the Oxyopsis begins life much larger and stronger (essentially the size of an L2 Hierodula).

Just my 2cent$


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## Meadow98684 (Mar 2, 2013)

I've never had a problem w/ Chinese. In fact, mine made it all the way to adult. The only noted thing is she was the least lived mantis I've had (march 2012 - October 2012)


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## happy1892 (Mar 2, 2013)

Meadow98684 did you keep the Chinese Mantis in a big container?


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## Meadow98684 (Mar 2, 2013)

Yes I did why?


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