# Can P. illudens and paradoxa mate?



## Jaywo (Sep 22, 2019)

They are so closely related I wonder if they can produce successful offsprings? Anyone ever try?


----------



## hysteresis (Sep 22, 2019)

Although ive thought about it, not yet.

Now that im swimming in both, I could try.


----------



## Synapze (Sep 23, 2019)

I don't know if they can successfully produce offspring, but if they could, it becomes a question of should you attempt to mate them. I think the opinion of most breeders would be that you shouldn't. If you were successful, you have a responsibility to inform buyers... or keep them all for yourself.


----------



## Jaywo (Sep 23, 2019)

Synapze said:


> I don't know if they can successfully produce offspring, but if they could, it becomes a question of should you attempt to mate them. I think the opinion of most breeders would be that you shouldn't. If you were successful, you have a responsibility to inform buyers... or keep them all for yourself.


I agree with you. I have no plans to breed them. I only keep P. paradoxas. I'm just more curious as to if someone did breed, it they produced offsprings and if those offsprings are sterile or fertile. I think you are right, its likely they won't produce viabable offspring like the other closely related ones.


----------



## hysteresis (Sep 23, 2019)

Well, if theyre synonyms they would. I was taught that under current classification, theyre synonyms. So it may all be moot.

Do crossed Rhombodera sp. produce viable offspring? Fertile offspring?


----------



## Synapze (Sep 23, 2019)

I've always been told that Phyllocrania genus has 3 distinct species: illudens, paradoxa, and insignis. I've seen a side by side comparison of paradoxa and illudens, and illudens does appear to be slightly larger. I've never seen an insignis. Someone smarter than I am would have to clarify.


----------



## hysteresis (Sep 23, 2019)

Synapze said:


> I've always been told that Phyllocrania genus has 3 distinct species: illudens, paradoxa, and insignis. I've seen a side by side comparison of paradoxa and illudens, and illudens does appear to be slightly larger. I've never seen an insignis. Someone smarter than I am would have to clarify.


Ive never even heard of insignis. LoL.

I have i1, i2/i3, and i3/i4 nymph cups of illudens and paradoxa side by side. I am likely cuckoo (as most of you have gathered by now  ) but I swear...

1) My illudens hatches are always smaller by 5 or 6 nymphs

2) My illudens nymphs seem juuust a tad bigger. its impossible to quantify, its something my eye seems to catch though

3) My adult illudens are WAY easier to feed.

4) My adult sizes were about the same. My male illudens was a good size. I got both species from a reseller, So I cant say theyve had all they can eat the whole time they were raised.

These nymphs were fed very well from the gate, so if there's a size difference, I plan to see that expressed in their growth this time.


----------



## Synapze (Sep 23, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> I am﻿ ﻿likely cuckoo (as most of you have gathered by now  ) ﻿


 Not as much as I am! 

I've asked an expert with 10 years experience with mantids... otherwise I'll lose sleep not knowing.  See, I've out-cuckood you.


----------



## hysteresis (Sep 23, 2019)

Synapze said:


> Not as much as I am!
> 
> I've asked an expert with 10 years experience with mantids... otherwise I'll lose sleep not knowing.  See, I've out-cuckood you.


Id really like to know. Im pretty sure theyre considered synonyms, but new methods in taxonomy using DNA instead of genitalia may break them up.

People have definitely observed differences though. I believe I have.


----------



## Jaywo (Sep 24, 2019)

Yes, I really want to know too!


----------



## Synapze (Sep 25, 2019)

Opinion: Because they have been bred successfully for years, they are morphological variants of the same species.


----------



## Jaywo (Sep 25, 2019)

Synapze said:


> Opinion: Because they have been bred successfully for years, they are morphological variants of the same species.


That was initially my thoughts also.


----------



## mantisfan101 (Oct 4, 2019)

Please don't, even if you did manage to hatch them out you'd need to find a way to take care of all the babies. For the most part, hybridization is frowned upon in general.


----------



## hysteresis (Oct 4, 2019)

mantisfan101 said:


> Please don't, even if you did manage to hatch them out you'd need to find a way to take care of all the babies. For the most part, hybridization is frowned upon in general.


I keep my illudens and paradoxa sequestered.

I only hatch one ooth in one cup, so. I had one stray nymph turn up. Because I dont know what it is, I wont mate or sell him. Hes in my son's room as a pet.


----------



## hysteresis (Oct 4, 2019)

I dont know if its malenor female yet.  Dont know why I said him. LoL.


----------

