# Common name needed



## Rick (Sep 11, 2009)

Need to know the most widely used common name for the following. These are what I can make out of what was written on some donated ooths. I know that I may not be spelling them right but am just writing what I can make out.

p. mediaconstrict


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## idolomantis (Sep 11, 2009)

Double shield mantis.

_Pnigomantis medioconstricta_


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 11, 2009)

Rick said:


> Need to know the most widely used common name for the following. These are what I can make out of what was written on some donated ooths. I know that I may not be spelling them right but am just writing what I can make out. p. mediaconstrict


That would be Pnigmomantis medioconstricta, Rick, the double shield mantis.


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## Rick (Sep 11, 2009)

idolomantis said:


> Double shield mantis._Pnigomantis medioconstricta_


Yeah I posted wrong one:

ephistiula pictipes


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## Morpheus uk (Sep 11, 2009)

Purple boxer then


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## agent A (Sep 11, 2009)

Rick said:


> Yeah I posted wrong one:ephistiula pictipes


purple boxer I think, leviatin had a topic in the classfeilds about this species


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## idolomantis (Sep 11, 2009)

_Ephestiasula pictipes_ Purple boxer mantis


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## Morpheus uk (Sep 11, 2009)

Quit jumping on my band wagun


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 11, 2009)

Rick said:


> Yeah I posted wrong one:ephistiula pictipes


That would be Ephestiasula pictipes, the purple bower mantis.


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## idolomantis (Sep 11, 2009)

Morpheus uk said:


> Quit jumping on my band wagun


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## Rick (Sep 11, 2009)

Thanks. I was surprised in my lists of names I didn't have those two.


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## idolomantis (Sep 11, 2009)

You're welcome


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## agent A (Sep 11, 2009)

same here, common names can be confusing, here are the common names of Creobroter as I know them:

Nebulosa= Chinese Flower Mantis

Pictipennis= Indian Flower Mantis

Gemmatus= Jeweled Flower Mantis

Elongata= Thailand Flower Mantis

Urbanis= Japaneese Flower Mantis

Meleagris= East African Flower Mantis


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## idolomantis (Sep 11, 2009)

Are those official?

And



> Meleagris= East *African* Flower Mantis


Since when do they come from Africa?

They are vietnamese right?


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## agent A (Sep 11, 2009)

idolomantis said:


> Are those official?And
> 
> Since when do they come from Africa?
> 
> They are vietnamese right?


well I got the African part from flickr or something, I'll try and get the link in a sec


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## agent A (Sep 11, 2009)

here:

Link


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## idolomantis (Sep 11, 2009)

_Pseudocreobotra_ is from Africa.

_Creobroter meleagris_ is from Vietnam and few other countries.

BTW who in that link said it's from Africa.


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## agent A (Sep 11, 2009)

idolomantis said:


> _Pseudocreobotra_ is from Africa._Creobroter meleagris_ is from Vietnam and few other countries.


but did you see the link?


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 11, 2009)

Yes it does, but on another flickr URL it says that it is from the Philipines and that is confirmed here: http://insects.tamu.edu/research/collectio...menopodidae.txt

Ian calls it an Indian flower mantis, I think.

BTW, how many members have this species?


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## Rick (Sep 11, 2009)

One more:

Iris Oratoria

This is for bugfest btw. Lots of kids and regular people. It is just easier to use common names for regular people.


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 11, 2009)

Iris oratorio = Mediterranean mantis =


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## bassist (Sep 11, 2009)

Mediterranean Mantis


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## MantidLord (Sep 11, 2009)

bassist said:


> Mediterranean Mantis


+1 those are my babies


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## Rick (Sep 11, 2009)

Thanks. That thing is established in US right? I think so but want to double check so I don't get shook down by APHIS tomorrow!


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## ABbuggin (Sep 11, 2009)

Rick said:


> Thanks. That thing is established in US right? I think so but want to double check so I don't get shook down by APHIS tomorrow!


Pretty sure they are.


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## agent A (Sep 12, 2009)

Am I late, I. oratoria is the mediterranean and I believe they live in NY. hey does anyone know the common name for the idolomorpha species?


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## MantidLord (Sep 12, 2009)

agent A said:


> Am I late, I. oratoria is the mediterranean and I believe they live in NY. hey does anyone know the common name for the idolomorpha species?


New York!!?? Since when? I. oratoria are desert species and the last time I heard they went as far east as Texas. How could they bee in New York?


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## chun (Sep 12, 2009)

agent A said:


> same here, common names can be confusing, here are the common names of Creobroter as I know them:Nebulosa= Chinese Flower Mantis
> 
> Pictipennis= Indian Flower Mantis
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, this is utter rubbish. Firstly, Creobroter species are from Asia, so C. meleagris are not "East African Flower Mantis". And dont provide me some rubbish and call it "references" or give me the "i read it somewhere, it must be true". The identification of Creobroter is already messy and difficult as it is, we really don't need someone who has absoultely no idea to make things even more difficult.

sorry rick for ruining your thread.


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 12, 2009)

Idolomorpha lateralis is known in the hobby in England as the cryptic grass mantis.

No Iris oratoria in N.Y. except, perhaps in a zoo. They are found in Texas, but they apparently moved to my part of the world, S.W. Arizona, from

S. California.


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## Ian (Sep 12, 2009)

RE the Creobroter meleagris, the guy that collected them from South India was fairly adament that they were indeed meleagris.


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 12, 2009)

Ian said:


> RE the Creobroter meleagris, the guy that collected them from South India was fairly adament that they were indeed meleagris.


It's currently a valid species. No reason why it shouldn't be a valid mantis! The fact remains that the ability to judge exactly what species a mantis is defeats the hobbyist, particularly if the Dx is based, say, on an examination of the male genitalia. Frequently, even if the hobbyist is able to accurately identify a species, he may find, after the fact, that the binomial has been "revised". Frequently the sources that are accessible to the hobbyist are not kept up to date. The Australian gvt list of the Mantodea still includes Archimantis minor (Giglio-Tos) as a valid species, even though G.A. Milledge declared it a junior synonym of A. sobrina (Saussere) twelve years ago (Memoirs of the Museum of Victoria; 0814-1827;50(2): 1-63).

In the hands of those who are expert in systematics, a valid binomial is definitive, but for the rest of us, confronted with a new mantis, accurate identification is pretty much out of the question and "common names" serve a useful purpose. As an example of this, I am currently incubating two ooths of the New Zealand mantis, Orthodera novaezealandiae. But is it? Up to a few decades ago, this species, occuring in New Zealand (surprise!) was known by the name that it still carries in Australia, Orthodera ministralis, and I have no idea which I have. A book which goes into painful detail on why the New Zealand mantis got its new name is on the way to me from Australia, but I doubt that I shall be able to key it out without a microscope.

In both England and the US, all birds and all butterflies anfd many beetles have standardized common names. I see no reason why this cannot be done with mantids, and indeed, the English mantid forum has compiled just such a list. It is not perfect or complete by any means, but it is a good start.


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## Christian (Sep 12, 2009)

_C. meleagris_ is not in stock. It's from the Philippines, but very probably just the same as _gemmatus_.

As with common names, it's absolutely useless to use them in mantids (or, in every invert), particularly as in the _Creobroter_ example. Most of those species occur in more countries than the "common" (rather: invented) name might suggest. But hey, fighting aginst windmills of ignorance makes me tired after a while. Do what you want, but don't expect other people to follow this.


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## MantidLord (Sep 13, 2009)

Christian said:


> _C. meleagris_ is not in stock. It's from the Philippines, but very probably just the same as _gemmatus_.As with common names, it's absolutely useless to use them in mantids (or, in every invert), particularly as in the _Creobroter_ example. Most of those species occur in more countries than the "common" (rather: invented) name might suggest. But hey, fighting aginst windmills of ignorance makes me tired after a while. Do what you want, but don't expect other people to follow this.


HAHAHAHAHAHA :lol: I gotta use that "windmills of ignorance" line.


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## Ntsees (Sep 14, 2009)

Rick said:


> Thanks. That thing is established in US right? I think so but want to double check so I don't get shook down by APHIS tomorrow!


(sorry, kinda late) Yeah, they are established in the US. If they don't agree, they can come to Fresno California and the FIRST mantid they find will be the Mediterranean mantid. It's just too common here.


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## Rick (Sep 14, 2009)

Christian said:


> _C. meleagris_ is not in stock. It's from the Philippines, but very probably just the same as _gemmatus_.As with common names, it's absolutely useless to use them in mantids (or, in every invert), particularly as in the _Creobroter_ example. Most of those species occur in more countries than the "common" (rather: invented) name might suggest. But hey, fighting aginst windmills of ignorance makes me tired after a while. Do what you want, but don't expect other people to follow this.


Not sure if this is in reference to me or not. I will continue to use the most accepted common name at this event. Many of the visitiors to the table are children and the first year we used latin names and spent 12 hours explaining the names to children and regular adults as well. These are not scientists visiting the display. You might get one or two people that whole time who are experts.


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## Christian (Sep 14, 2009)

No that wasn't a reference to you. As I pointed out in the other thread, I see no problem in using the common names that already exist when talking to kids or people outside the hobby. Most mantids occurring today in the US have one and as you are not allow to show other species the issue isn't relevant here. I just think it is better to use binomials between hobbyists and to not try to invent ridiculous new names for all the species appearing in the hobby.


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## Rick (Sep 14, 2009)

Christian said:


> No that wasn't a reference to you. As I pointed out in the other thread, I see no problem in using the common names that already exist when talking to kids or people outside the hobby. Most mantids occurring today in the US have one and as you are not allow to show other species the issue isn't relevant here. I just think it is better to use binomials between hobbyists and to not try to invent ridiculous new names for all the species appearing in the hobby.


Gotcha.


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Sep 20, 2009)

Any common name for them? please advise

Metallyticus fallax

Metallyticus pallipes

Metallyticus semiaeneus

Metallyticus splendidus

Metallyticus violaceus


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## bassist (Sep 20, 2009)

Most people here don't even know about _Metallyticus _lol.


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## ismart (Sep 20, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> New York!!?? Since when? I. oratoria are desert species and the last time I heard they went as far east as Texas. How could they bee in New York?


Because i put em there! :lol:


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## ismart (Sep 20, 2009)

bassist said:


> Most people here don't even know about _Metallyticus _lol.


The only common name i heard for them is ''Metal Mantis''


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## Christian (Sep 20, 2009)

It gets worse and worse...


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Sep 20, 2009)

Metallyticus fallax

Metallyticus pallipes

Metallyticus semiaeneus

Metallyticus splendidus

Metallyticus violaceus

What is the meaning of these latin words? if possible, please advise!


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 20, 2009)

Fisherman_Brazil said:


> Any common name for them? please adviseMetallyticus fallax
> 
> Metallyticus pallipes
> 
> ...


No common names for them, Luke, for the reason that Bassist gave, though apparently, M. spendidus is/was in culture, somewhere.

Christian: I too was amused at the thought of you likening yourself to Don Quixote. Although such an interpretation is no longer fashionable, Cervantes explicitly represented him as mad, ineffectually "tilting at windmills" that he believes are giants!

Your reference to "ridiculous new names" is also unwittingly amusing. Latin and Greek binomials were initiated at a time when a man of learning was classically literate. This is no longer the case, and for several centuries, scientists have waved their Latinate bats like a blindfolded child with a pinata. The genus _Aethochroa_ is Greek for "unusual appearance", not as useful, I would think, as the common name, "Pakistan stick insect", but the species name, _affinis_ meaning "related" is in Latin. The two names in a binomial are supposed to agree in gender, but how do you get a Greek word to ""agree" with a Latin word? Consider my favorite mantis binomial,_ Blepharopsis mendica_. It's common name of "thistle mantis" describes the sharp little tubercles on it body, but _Bleparopsis_ means "eyelid appearance", and _mendica_, used today in the English word "mendicant" means "beggar". Not very descriptive, is it?

Again, I do agree with you in one respect; our arguments, however passionate and stimulating, are unlikely to affect people's usage, one way or the other.  

(I was going to use _Amorphoscelis parva_ as an example of the Greek/Latin hybrid, but my translation of _Amorphoscelis_ as "not in the shape of a leg" even if accurate, sounds too bizarre to be taken seriously.)


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## bassist (Sep 20, 2009)

_Metallyticus splendidus_ is in culture


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## Christian (Sep 20, 2009)

The meaning of _Amorphoscelis_ is referred to the unusual raptorial leg of this genus. Regarding the genders of generic and specific epitheton, the origin of either of them is of no importance. It's convention that the gender of the specific epitheton has to follow the gender of the generic one. This is comparatively new, on a decade scale, so not all binomials have been changed accordingly yet.

I think you expressed your utterly biased disapproval of binomials, and as such, scientific usage, enough by now, so I won't engage in even more comments on this. The reason for binomials was explained multiple times. If you don't like them it's your choice, but don't try to convince others that they are by definition inaccurate! The opposite is true.


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## Ntsees (Sep 20, 2009)

ismart said:


> Because i put em there! :lol:


Lol, I found that a little funny even though I know I shouldn't be. Anyways, I think we all need to be aware of the species we are releasing into our yards (if we release them or by escape). My fear is the Carolina mantid becoming naturalized in California. Not only will it add to the confusion between limbata and californica, it'll probably also compete with the species that are already naturalized. Let's all try to keep the carolina on the east coast and if we find one here in California, keep it, destroy it, etc. So far, I've seen one case in this forum where I believe the mantid in the picture (caught in Cali) was a carolina and claimed to be a californica. My newly-learned identification skills with the help of many members on this forum allowed me to see that (I can't believe I even mistaked the species).


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## ismart (Sep 22, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> Lol, I found that a little funny even though I know I shouldn't be. Anyways, I think we all need to be aware of the species we are releasing into our yards (if we release them or by escape). My fear is the Carolina mantid becoming naturalized in California. Not only will it add to the confusion between limbata and californica, it'll probably also compete with the species that are already naturalized. Let's all try to keep the carolina on the east coast and if we find one here in California, keep it, destroy it, etc. So far, I've seen one case in this forum where I believe the mantid in the picture (caught in Cali) was a carolina and claimed to be a californica. My newly-learned identification skills with the help of many members on this forum allowed me to see that (I can't believe I even mistaked the species).


Oh no!  What i ment was there in my house in NY!  :lol: 

I would not release these here. I have plenty of wild mantids here as it is. Not to mention i don't think _Iris oratoria_ would do well in this climate.


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## Ntsees (Sep 22, 2009)

ismart said:


> Oh no!  What i ment was there in my house in NY!  :lol: I would not release these here. I have plenty of wild mantids here as it is. Not to mention i don't think _Iris oratoria_ would do well in this climate.


Oh ok. I must have probably read it wrong then.


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## brancsikia (Sep 27, 2009)

bassist said:


> _Metallyticus splendidus_ is in culture


and _Metallyticus violaceus_, too


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 27, 2009)

Fisherman_Brazil said:


> Metallyticus fallaxMetallyticus pallipes
> 
> Metallyticus semiaeneus
> 
> ...


For some reason, we never did answer your question, Luke!

metallicus = metallic (Gr. metal [by derivation from "mine"] and L. icus converts a noun to an adjective and gives emphasis). The Latin loan word metallum was also first used to mean "mine" and then what the mine produced and it is likely that the author of the trivial name had the Latin version in mind.

fallax = false (L. fallo, to deceive).

pallipes = covered foot (L. palli a cover and ped[pes] a foot)

semiaeneus = half copper (L. semi half and aeneus copper or bronze)

splendidus = bright, glittering (L. splendidus -- also splendid)

violaceus = violet (L. violet [flower] aceus of)

These are literal translations; there may be something better/more accurate.

Christian: I was using binomials accurately well over half a century ago and continue to do so. I also have a smattering (no more) of Latin and Greek. Binomials were originated and used by eighteenth century gentlemen who were fluent in both, and you can be sure that the generic and trivial names agreed in gender. My problem is not now nor ever has been with binomials, but with those who create them with minimal knowledge of the languages in which they are working and with the belief that English speaking peoples are "ignorant" because they follow the practice of their forefathers in using common names while Germans and central Europeans do not. At least the users of common names usually know what the names that they are using mean and often spell them correctly.


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## Christian (Sep 28, 2009)

You still didn't get the point: it is unimportant how silly a binomial may be (and there are a lot of crappy ones). The only thing to consider here is that they are internationally accepted and referable to one single species each. Common names are not, regardless how elegant or easy to spell they are (unfortunately there are enough people who can't spell even these).


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