# Possible diapause emulation?



## sbugir (Sep 15, 2009)

Hello all,

As we know, European ooths need a diapause. However, the majority of us (including myself) just put the ooths in the fridge. However, the majority of these ooth never begin the diapause state. I have an idea that might work. So here it is:

Grab your ooth container or whatsoever you are using to house the ooths. In that container or housing place a few icecubes in their and begin with the light on. Every few hours shut the light off for a phototropism effect. After a weeks worth, I'm sure it would be very smart to put the ooths in the fridge and let them break diapause. After a week or two in the fridge, take the ooth out and let it hatch in a month or so. Would this work as a cycle of diapause. I'd like to try it because its been in the 80's here, and I don't want to just put it into the fridge unless it'll be fine with hatching.

Anyway tell me what you guys n gals think.

Thanks,

Lemmiwinks


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 16, 2009)

O.K. You are talking about inducing and breaking diapause so that hatching will not occur in mid fall or in mid winter.

Diapause is induced not by phototropism, but by photoperiod, the period of time that the ooth is exposed to sunlight each day and that is shortened gradually as the days draw in. Sunlight can also be approximated indoors by the use of broad spectrum, fluorescent bulbs. You can't use tungsten or Growlux (plant) lights. If you want to do it right, just reduce the photoperiod by about 15'/week. The photoperiod should be continuous for any given day. Constantly switching the light on and off may make the ooth dizzy and even cause it to throw up.

There is a much cheaper and easier alternative, though. Just put your ooth outside in a small enclosure (a Pyrex bowl works nicely) where it is exposed to the light (keep it in the shade, though) and protected from predatory birds and parasitic wasps. The temperature will also drop as the weeks go by, and if you live in one of those unimaginable parts of the U.S. that have that white stuff in the winter, just transfer it to the refrigerator. You don't have to wait until spring, leave it in the fridge for a month or so, and you are ready to set it up for incubation.

Notice that I haven't given you any precise time -- how short the days must get before diapause is induced and how long it should be refrigerated before diapause is broken -- and I'm not sure if anyone knows exactly. If you put the ooth out now, though, you might want to leave it out for a couple of months, sunlight is reduced by about an hour/month at this time of year. Good luck, and let us know how it works out!


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## Rick (Sep 16, 2009)

I never did anything like that. I just stuck in the fridge. I wonder how much of a role light plays, if at all.


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## kamakiri (Sep 16, 2009)

Rick said:


> I never did anything like that. I just stuck in the fridge. I wonder how much of a role light plays, if at all.


I'm with Rick on this. I always just stick 'em in the fridge. I also question the role of light as a requirement to enter diapause. Light does seem to be a possible hatching trigger...but I have no proof it is more than that for religiosa.


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## massaman (Sep 16, 2009)

can you still leave the ooth outside if you want to hatch it in the spring or early summer as just take the ooth put it in a container or something and just leave it outside in a safe place and recover it in the spring/summer to hatch it out? Would also work I think in a garage if the temp inside is less then the outside temp!

I got one european ooth right now that I got sitting outside for next year and just placed it in a power aid bottle and got it put in a spot outside where no animals can get at it!


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## Rick (Sep 16, 2009)

massaman said:


> can you still leave the ooth outside if you want to hatch it in the spring or early summer as just take the ooth put it in a container or something and just leave it outside in a safe place and recover it in the spring/summer to hatch it out? Would also work I think in a garage if the temp inside is less then the outside temp!I got one european ooth right now that I got sitting outside for next year and just placed it in a power aid bottle and got it put in a spot outside where no animals can get at it!


Yes. I wouldn't even put it in a container. Maybe a net cage but not a container. I container will hold moisture and could get very hot if left in the sun. I'm surprised more people don't do this instead of using the fridge.


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## ismart (Sep 16, 2009)

This time of year i let mother nature diapause/incubate my chinese, european, and carolina ooths.


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## massaman (Sep 16, 2009)

There is one small problem about leaving them outside without some kind of container to protect them. Though they still are prey to the animals and the elements and unless you offer a little protection for your ooths that your keeping outside then your risking some kind of danger or risk of having a ooth eaten of destroyed!Well also dont think I want people coming over looking in my fridge to find ooths and freak out and accuse me of being a nut or anything either and the problem around my house with leaving ooths outside unprotected is theres alot of birds and squirrels and other vermin and such that could make a meal out of my ooth and guess I think I am just too lazy to even keep them in my fridge being that I have to mist them all the time even in the fridge and rather not mist them at all and how can a ooth dry out in the fridge when its cold?


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## massaman (Sep 16, 2009)

Actually The bottle that I am using I made sure I put holes in it the top and bottom so that in case it rains the water would drain out of the bottom!


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## massaman (Sep 16, 2009)

I have a clorox bleach bottle that I cleaned out and there is not a trace of bleach in it anymore that I prob am going to use for my ooths and there is no way moisture will get in it to ruin the ooths and the bottle could prevent the elements and critters from doing any harm as well and going to go with this method and making sure this will work!


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## kamakiri (Sep 16, 2009)

I'd pass on the clorox bottle...just sayin'

I think the net cage or window screen would be better.


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 16, 2009)

Rick said:


> I never did anything like that. I just stuck in the fridge. I wonder how much of a role light plays, if at all.


Rick: low temperature in nature breaks the diapause caused by reduced photoperiod, a mechanism that has been very well explored and demonstrated at both an observational and biochemical level and is not contested by any entomologist that I have ever heard of.

It is most probable that your ooths spend the winter in your fridge in a state of quiescence, which wouldn't work in nature, since a few sunny days in autumn could cause the ooths to hatch and the nymphs to freeze or starve, but works fine for you, indoors.

So stop wondering, Rick! You have a great deal of influence on this forum and it would be unfortunate if some new and not-so-new members shrugged off the mechanism because of your doubts.

Sorry Kamakiri, I didn't mean to leave you out! The same goes for you!


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## Rick (Sep 16, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Rick: low temperature in nature breaks the diapause caused by reduced photoperiod, a mechanism that has been very well explored and demonstrated at both an observational and biochemical level and is not contested by any entomologist that I have ever heard of.It is most probable that your ooths spend the winter in your fridge in a state of quiescence, which wouldn't work in nature, since a few sunny days in autumn could cause the ooths to hatch and the nymphs to freeze or starve, but works fine for you, indoors.
> 
> So stop wondering, Rick! You have a great deal of influence on this forum and it would be unfortunate if some new and not-so-new members shrugged off the mechanism because of your doubts.


Just saying that there is often no need to do anything complicated for something like this. All that technical talk probably causes more confusion for a hobbyst when all they have to do is stick it in the fridge in the proper container and in that situation light obviously means nothing. Doesn't matter what would happen in nature since your house and fridge is not nature. That's all I am saying Phil.


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 16, 2009)

Rick said:


> Just saying that there is often no need to do anything complicated for something like this. All that technical talk probably causes more confusion for a hobbyst when all they have to do is stick it in the fridge in the proper container and in that situation light obviously means nothing. Doesn't matter what would happen in nature since your house and fridge is not nature. That's all I am saying Phil.


I agree with you Rick, lots of people can keep their ooths safely in the fridge over winter, but the ooths are not in diapause.


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## sbugir (Sep 16, 2009)

Okay, well Rick and Phil, if they are in the fridge an not in diapause, will they still hatch...? I'm keeping it indoors, I probably should have made that more clear. If they are not in diapause and in a state of quiescence will they still hatch...?


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## massaman (Sep 16, 2009)

so the question is can you arftifically induce diapause by what I am reading it would sound like its not really possible but what do I know and all I want to do is keep my ooths in a safe place till next year and decided not to use my fridge because I dont want to have to take them out every day of the week to mist them and put them back in the fridge if every second they are out breaks the over winter cycle even for a few seconds!


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 16, 2009)

lemmiwinks said:


> Okay, well Rick and Phil, if they are in the fridge an not in diapause, will they still hatch...? I'm keeping it indoors, I probably should have made that more clear. If they are not in diapause and in a state of quiescence will they still hatch...?


Yep!


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## sbugir (Sep 16, 2009)

All I want to know massaman, is if they'll hatch. I could care less about the time consumption/breaking winter stuff. By the way, just curious isn't massaman a kind of indian curry? (not being name offensive, just wondering)


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## sbugir (Sep 16, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Yep!


YAY! Also, how long should i leave them in the fridge (I'd like to hatch them asap, as I've never experienced an ooth hatch before)?


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## massaman (Sep 16, 2009)

LOL I do have two net cages but they not in very good shape sadly but if anyone has any lying around they are not using I would put it to good use then and you still got that offer up phil on sending me a net cage a long time ago when I gave you my address on you promised to send one that I did not hear from you or anything and wondered what happened!Well the two cages I do have are not in the best shape and well kind of use them for breeding my smaller mantis and used them to breed my europeans and one of them right now I am housing some giant asian nymphs that hatched a week or so ago and man trying to keep them alive is not easy they may seem easy to take care of but in no way should they be in the same zipcode as each other as they love to play the eating game with their siblings and well one of the better shape net cages is housing them for now until I get some that are going to last a while!


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## massaman (Sep 16, 2009)

no a nick name a friend of mine gave me years ago and it stayed with me and well in my case I dont want to raise chinese or europeans any more until next year is what I am getting at and want to put the native species in diapause in my situation as I dont want to do any more raising of these for a while but would like to let them go into my yard next year and so on and so forth!


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## sbugir (Sep 16, 2009)

O Okay, yeah I like european mantids alot and would like to see an ooth hatch. So i kinda want to know what to do lol!


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## massaman (Sep 16, 2009)

Ok if you put them in the fridge as that might be what I am hoping I dont break down and do but if I do then do I have to wrap the ooths in individual paper towels in a container then or just put down paper towel and put all the ooths I plan to diapause on top of the paper towel and just mist all of them?


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## Rick (Sep 16, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> I agree with you Rick, lots of people can keep their ooths safely in the fridge over winter, but the ooths are not in diapause.


Semantics.

If my doubts about something sway someone away from the mechanism then so be it Phil. I am not an expert on any of this and never claim to be and I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night either. I am learning sometimes just like many others. I just base what I say on my experiences and what works for me, bottom line plain and simple.


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## tier (Sep 16, 2009)

All in all, Phil, this is dangerous half knowledge. You are wrong or at least not precise in most what you say.

Anyway, nice try.


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