# Yet another M. religiosa question



## MantidLord (Jan 9, 2010)

Okay, some of you may no that I've had Mantis religiosa ooths since about September. After following the advice of members on the forum, I placed the ooths in a container outside so they can go through diapause and hatch in the spring. So while I'm waiting for months, &lt;_&lt; I've got some questions:

1) Is 15 degrees celsius a cold enough temperature for these guys to enter diapause?

2) It hasn't really rained this winter so I've misted the ooths every once in a while (less than ten times since they've been layed). Is this enough, meaning is it possible that they've dried out?

3) I checked up on the ooths about a week ago and noticed molt in the substrate (soil). None of the molt were on the sticks or ooths so I just dumped the soil out. Should I just keep the ooths without a substrate or try something else (like paper towel) and just mist them less or poke more holes for ventilation?

And finally 4) What make's this species difficult to raise (Rick)? I've raised wild caught specimens from about three molts from adult hood and had random casualties where the mantids will be eating and then just die. But overall, I was successful. Do the problems occur much earlier in the development cycle?

Thanks all in advance. I know some of these questions are probably simple, but I'm just curious and want to make sure they hatch and I can rear them successfully. I can take pics of the ooths if needed.


----------



## Rick (Jan 9, 2010)

I've hatched a few ooths of those. Nearly all of them died for some reason. The few that lived died as well but still far short of adult.


----------



## MantidLord (Jan 9, 2010)

Rick said:


> I've hatched a few ooths of those. Nearly all of them died for some reason. The few that lived died as well but still far short of adult.


So does my setup seem okay for the ooths? And did they just randomly die or were they not eating?


----------



## batsofchaos (Jan 9, 2010)

The advice I've seen for diapausing ooths is to put the ooth in a paper bag and put the paper bag in a sheltered space outside, that way they can get good ventilation and moisture but aren't subject to direct exposure and are more likely to hatch out. It might not be terribly humid in Nevada, but keep in mind that _M. religiosa_ is found there in the wild, so at least some of the ooths in the wild make it. I think you're probably fine, but really there's no way to know for sure until they either hatch or fail to do so.


----------



## MantidLord (Jan 9, 2010)

Thanks batsofchaos. I figured that since they do occur here in Nevada I would just leave them outside so they can experience the cold weather. I thought that as long as they experience a cold period, they'd be fine. I actually have them in container that they were laid and the container is placed in one of my aquariums outside to protect it further. So they're not necessarily exposed to the outside (if that's what you meant). Although you bring up a good point with ventilation. I'll have to make more holes for them. And just to clarify, I really have to wait till spring in order for them to hatch huh? Man the wait is crazy. I'm used to my I. oratoria that don't require diapause.


----------



## batsofchaos (Jan 9, 2010)

When I mentioned exposure, I wasn't referring to anything you were doing, just the reason for putting it in a bag in a sheltered area, as opposed to just anywhere where it might get snowed or rained on.

Regarding the duration of diapause, Peter's guide to ooth care says that a diapause period can be as short as three weeks at cooler temperatures. I'm sure the actual length of time varies from species to species among those that require a diapause, but since _M. religiosa_ is a hardy species that crops up practically everywhere in the US I doubt they need much more time than that. As for whether 15 degrees C is cold enough, Peter recommends 10 degrees C so it might be worth moving the ooth into your fridge for a few weeks and then set it up to hatch rather than leaving it outside.


----------



## MantidLord (Jan 10, 2010)

batsofchaos said:


> When I mentioned exposure, I wasn't referring to anything you were doing, just the reason for putting it in a bag in a sheltered area, as opposed to just anywhere where it might get snowed or rained on.Regarding the duration of diapause, Peter's guide to ooth care says that a diapause period can be as short as three weeks at cooler temperatures. I'm sure the actual length of time varies from species to species among those that require a diapause, but since _M. religiosa_ is a hardy species that crops up practically everywhere in the US I doubt they need much more time than that. As for whether 15 degrees C is cold enough, Peter recommends 10 degrees C so it might be worth moving the ooth into your fridge for a few weeks and then set it up to hatch rather than leaving it outside.


Okay, so I just read Peter's guide again and went and checked on my ooths for fear of mold (again). The ooths were fine. But one of them had fallen. So I picked it up and examined it. It was very soft around the edges. So I just began peeling away at it. After a while, I just said "screw it" and started opening it up (it's the smallest ooth I have, even smaller than my I. oratoria ooths) and to my surprise, it was indeed fertile. Juices started to ooze from the ooth and I could see the tiny, unhatched nymphs. I'm happy because that means that the other ooths are fertile and that they're not dried out or molded.

Now, back to discussion at hand. If what Peter said can be applied to my situation, then I may be able to start hatching mine now. But, I'm not going to because I want them to be on a natural cycle. I only feared putting the ooths in the fridge because I knew the fridge could dry them out, and I didn't want to risk me over-spraying or underspraying them (even though the few times I used the fridge for ooths, they all hatched). So now that we know that the ooths are in fact fertile and not dried out, do you think I should still just leave them be? If everything goes according to plan, I'm going to try and start incubation in March. Thanks a lot for the help btw.


----------



## ZoeRipper (Jan 10, 2010)

You could _see_ the unhatched nymphs? Holy poopenheimer. I wanna see that so bad! (Not bad enough to go tearing into any of my ooths, though, lol)


----------



## Ntsees (Jan 10, 2010)

Go ahead and continue what you're doing. From my experience, the 1st instars are very fragile and small droplets of water will get their legs stuck. The farthest I've gone is them molting to the second instar and then having problems with the molting (they get stuck). The older instars that I find are no problem though.


----------



## MantidLord (Jan 10, 2010)

ZoeRipper said:


> You could _see_ the unhatched nymphs? Holy poopenheimer. I wanna see that so bad! (Not bad enough to go tearing into any of my ooths, though, lol)


Lol! Yeah, I felt kinda bad at ripping it apart like that, but it was so small for a European ooth and small for an ooth period, that I got over it within seconds. I guess the fact that it was actually fertile outweighed the fact that it will never hatch (I guess we can chalk it up for the sake of science I guess). The nymphs were still curled up and were a yellowish color. I could make out there little legs still bundled together.

@Ntsees:

So do you suggest that once they hatch that I don't mist as often and then pick it up again once they reach L2? That sounds complicated. Maybe I'll separate them into batches with different care techniques for each to find the best method. And by L1 legs getting stuck, do you mean after they hatch or while hatching? I have condensation in the container so I guess once we reach the end of February I'll start to wipe it off and really reduce misting.


----------



## Rick (Jan 10, 2010)

If they are found in youre area just stick the ooth outside somewhere birds can't get to it. Be careful about using containers as they can heat up if in the sun.


----------



## MantidLord (Jan 10, 2010)

True, I know what you mean. I killed a couple of I. oratoria nymphs before by leaving them in a container outside; baked them alive. But one thing, this species seems to be taken over by I. oratoria. I used to find a lot of them years ago, (8 years ago) but over the past two years I've only found one adult female M. religiosa. Could such a small species really be driving M. religiosa out of this habitat?


----------



## agent A (Jan 10, 2010)

Mantis Religiosa is my state insect, and I have kept them. They are extremely fragile as nymphs. My suggestion is 10 week diapause, they hatch about 12 weeks later, they take a few days to hatch completely, humidity should be about 55%, and they do best on thin, grass-like perches (tall grass, daylillies with long thin leaves, spider plants, excelsior etc.), that's where I find them in the wild (I've seen wild ones here and in Vermont)


----------



## MantidLord (Jan 10, 2010)

agent A said:


> Mantis Religiosa is my state insect, and I have kept them. They are extremely fragile as nymphs. My suggestion is 10 week diapause, they hatch about 14 weeks later, they take a few days to hatch completely, humidity should be about 55%, and they do best on thin, grass-like perches (tall grass, daylillies with long thin leaves, spider plants, excelsior etc.), that's where I find them in the wild (I've seen wild ones here and in Vermont)


Thanks agen A. So a ten week diapause? So I already fulfilled that condition. They were layed in October. So I should basically break diapause and bring them inside (?). Or does the 14 weeks later part include the winter? I Figured I would need to put some type of grass in there because that is where I always find them: in weeds and grassy fields.


----------



## massaman (Jan 10, 2010)

I did find them all over the place last summer but in Michigan the europeans are pretty much the only dominate species out here and heard there is chinese also but none are in my area and also another good idea if you plan to keep them outside like i did as I used like a half of a metal cage used to catch fish and placed two smaller cages inside that and put two chinese ooths in the smaller cages and made sure they hung and put all this around ground level but put the bigger age over a tree shaft and so far nothing can get at the ooths I set out.Just hope they do hatch in the spring though and figured to try to bring some chinese into my area at least where I live!


----------



## agent A (Jan 10, 2010)

MantidLord said:


> Thanks agen A. So a ten week diapause? So I already fulfilled that condition. They were layed in October. So I should basically break diapause and bring them inside (?). Or does the 14 weeks later part include the winter? I Figured I would need to put some type of grass in there because that is where I always find them: in weeds and grassy fields.


the 14 weeks is after the diapause. I took an ooth out of a 10 week diapause and it hatched 14 weeks later. It takes them a little longer to hatch than chinese. I typically take ooths out of diapause in late march, chinese hatch late may, european hatch mid june. I think it's about 14 weeks after diapause, chinese take 8, takes europeans about 3 weeks longer, so about 11-12 weeks.


----------



## MantidLord (Jan 10, 2010)

agent A said:


> the 14 weeks is after the diapause. I took an ooth out of a 10 week diapause and it hatched 14 weeks later. It takes them a little longer to hatch than chinese. I typically take ooths out of diapause in late march, chinese hatch late may, european hatch mid june. I think it's about 14 weeks after diapause, chinese take 8, takes europeans about 3 weeks longer, so about 11-12 weeks.


So if I want mine to hatch in March, then I should break diapause now. Thanks a lot for the info. mid June does sound about right, which is why I guess I see adults well after I. oratoria are dead (they hatch typically in May).

@massaman, I guess my set up is kind of similar except the above ground part. The only reason I put them in another cage is because last year I lost some ooths due to parasitic wasps even though they were in jars. Of course some wasps could probably still enter the container, the chances are greatly reduced.


----------



## massaman (Jan 10, 2010)

problem is if your going to plan to release any though if there is cold snaps that may kill the nymphs unless you plan to raise them all!


----------



## MantidLord (Jan 10, 2010)

massaman said:


> problem is if your going to plan to release any though if there is cold snaps that may kill the nymphs unless you plan to raise them all!


I see what you mean. But based on everyone's experience with this species, I might need as many individuals as possible so I can get a good number that's successfully reared. I have five ooths (four ooths actually because two were supposed to be made at the same time), two of which are "normal" sized 1-1.5 inch ooths laid by one female. The other three are roughly half an inch laid by a different female (but was proven fertile as of last night). So out of those, how many nymphs do you think I'll end up with? I know they're hatch rates are usually pretty large, but nothing compared to T. sinensis.


----------



## agent A (Jan 10, 2010)

they hatch about 150 nymphs. They are extremely sensitive to cold. I released them, it got to 58 degrees that night, most died, then on my birthday (June 22nd), I found an L4 nymph, so they grow fast, it molted a week later into L5 before dying of a seizure (remember that topic)-it was a male


----------



## Ntsees (Jan 10, 2010)

MantidLord said:


> True, I know what you mean. I killed a couple of I. oratoria nymphs before by leaving them in a container outside; baked them alive. But one thing, this species seems to be taken over by I. oratoria. I used to find a lot of them years ago, (8 years ago) but over the past two years I've only found one adult female M. religiosa. Could such a small species really be driving M. religiosa out of this habitat?


Your situation is the same as mines in regards to the _I. oratoria _out-numbering the _M. religiosa_. Where I live, the wild _M. religiosa _always hatch out earlier and the earliest adults appear by July. I don't know if _I. oratoria _is driving the _M. religiosa _because I once kept a female _M. religiosa_ outside and it caught and ate a wild adult _I. oratoria _female.


----------



## MantidLord (Jan 10, 2010)

@Ntsees: That's why I'm a little confused. I mean M. religiosa can easily prey on I. oratoria. So unless I. oratoria are more efficient hunters, then I can't see why they are diminishing in numbers (even if they were more efficient, M. religiosa would just prey on them).

@Agent A: 150 out of a normal sized ooth huh. Okay, so I may be looking at about 150 X 2 (for the two regular ooths) + 3(50-100) (for three smaller ooths) which should equal out to about 525 nymphs. This of course will probably be the maximum amount of nymphs as I'm sure I'll get less than that. Taking into consideration that half of the nymphs will probably die due to unknown, unavoidable causes leaving about 260. Not to mention nymphs lost to cannibalism before they're large enough to separate (lets divide by 2 again) to equal 130. And of course, the fact that these species appear to be (contradicting that the web says they are easy starter species) pretty difficult to keep alive, I'll lose some extras in the L1 and L2 phase due to mismolts, trapped in water, etc. So lets divide by 2 again to get 65. Coupled by mismolts throughout development, I should end up with (If I'm lucky) at most 60 nymphs making it passed L3.

By that time I'm sure the cold periods will be nearing the end and I'll be preparing to release some of them outside. I know I can't possibly calculate/predict the number of mantids, but I'm only doing this so I can decide when to take the next step: incubation.


----------



## MantidLord (Jan 13, 2010)

Besides, if I get my leopard gecko before they hatch, I might use some as feeders (depending on what I fill the nymphs with).


----------



## agent A (Jan 13, 2010)

M. Religiosa has very high mortality rates. Consider yourself really really lucky if 10 survive to adulthood from 1 ooth


----------



## Ntsees (Jan 13, 2010)

What Agent A said is the only possible explanation (for me at least) why _M. religiosa_, although they are much physically stronger, isn't as abundant as the _I. oratoria_ in the wild.


----------



## MantidLord (Jan 13, 2010)

Ntsees said:


> What Agent A said is the only possible explanation (for me at least) why _M. religiosa_, although they are much physically stronger, isn't as abundant as the _I. oratoria_ in the wild.


So how would that explain M. religiosa in territories with Stagmomantis sp.? By the way, I'm not criticizing you, I'm just throwing off ideas because this is pretty interesting to me. And Agent A, thanks. Honestly despite my "calculations" I would be happy if i got 10 from all of them (as long as I let some go or used some as feeders).


----------



## Ntsees (Jan 13, 2010)

MantidLord said:


> So how would that explain M. religiosa in territories with Stagmomantis sp.? By the way, I'm not criticizing you, I'm just throwing off ideas because this is pretty interesting to me. And Agent A, thanks. Honestly despite my "calculations" I would be happy if i got 10 from all of them (as long as I let some go or used some as feeders).


Don't worry about me being criticized (I didn't even see it as criticizing). There are many things that I don't know and if I'm wrong, I want to be corrected and I want to learn. What I meant to say is that although the introduced _M. religiosa _is capable of surviving in territories with the Stagmomantis sp., their instar survival is low and therefore that accounts to the low numbers of adults. I'm just correlating on the low survival rate in captivity and applying it to the wild (~if that's what we see in captivity, then that's probably what happens in the wild). There are some forum members who I think are experts at raising mantids and if they are doing their best with _M. religiosa _and the survival rate is still low, then I think that it's just the way the species is. Of course, this is just my thought and I hope I answered your question.


----------



## ismart (Jan 14, 2010)

MantidLord said:


> Okay, some of you may no that I've had Mantis religiosa ooths since about September. After following the advice of members on the forum, I placed the ooths in a container outside so they can go through diapause and hatch in the spring. So while I'm waiting for months, &lt;_&lt; I've got some questions:1) Is 15 degrees celsius a cold enough temperature for these guys to enter diapause?
> 
> 2) It hasn't really rained this winter so I've misted the ooths every once in a while (less than ten times since they've been layed). Is this enough, meaning is it possible that they've dried out?
> 
> ...


1) 15 degrees celsius seems high to me. Remember this species can also be found as far north as Canada. I would keep them like in 8 celsius or less.

2) That is fine. I one time forgot to mist my european ooths for a whole winter. They were kept in my garage in a cardbord box wraped in some paper towel. I thought for sure nothing was going to hatch, but to my surprise all 6 ooths hatched out about 200 nymphs each, that spring.

3) The only time you need a substrate is when you are incubating them. No substrate is required when they are in diapause. Just mist every now and then.

4) Rick unfortunately had a weak batch to begin with. I have had the same problem in the past. I have had ooths hatch out only a handfull of weak nymphs, and die soon after. I have also had great hatches reaching over 200 nymphs per ooth. These nymphs were strong. One of these ooths i decided to keep 10 of the nymphs. I managed to raise all 10 to adulthood with no problems. I ended up with 5 males, and 5 females. That was sweet! B) I know i will never have a male to female ratio like that again!  

Your questions are good ones!  This species can be tricky at times.


----------



## Ntsees (Jan 14, 2010)

ismart said:


> 1) 15 degrees celsius seems high to me. Remember this species can also be found as far north as Canada. I would keep them like in 8 celsius or less.2) That is fine. I one time forgot to mist my european ooths for a whole winter. They were kept in my garage in a cardbord box wraped in some paper towel. I thought for sure nothing was going to hatch, but to my surprise all 6 ooths hatched out about 200 nymphs each, that spring.
> 
> 3) The only time you need a substrate is when you are incubating them. No substrate is required when they are in diapause. Just mist every now and then.
> 
> ...


Ok, that's very good to know - that it depends on how strong the batch is.


----------



## MantidLord (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks a bunch guys for the replies. Ismart, that helps to know that it depends on the batch. I hope that considering how tough my females were, that their batch will be strong. I'll put them in my garage where it is much cooler than outside, and there is no substrate in there anymore. And yeah, you were lucky to get a ratio like that. Hopefully I'll be somewhat lucky. I thought this species hatched less than T. sinensis, but it seems they're roughly the same.

Ntsees, I see what you mean, and that really does make since in terms of survival rate. And if the mantids are exposed to ideal conditions and still die then I guess it could be contributed to low survival rates (depending on if it is a weak batch as stated above). The only problem is, I actually used to see more M. religiosa. What I'm trying to say is, I used to be able to find religiosas around Nevada fairly easy, but then there was a period where I found nothing. Now, I only find I. oratoria and one M. religiosa within the past four years. So I'm guessing there is a correlation between the gap with no mantids/emergence of I. oratoria and the lowering population of M. religiosa. Because frankly, low survival rates would have made it hard to find them in the first place, but it wasn't. While when I go to California, I can find M. religiosa all day and I rarely find S. limbata (which share the same habitat).


----------



## agent A (Jan 14, 2010)

M. religiosa likes it hot! I have seen them be adults in late July if there was a hot June, so they can become adults in like 1.5 months with hot temp. Tenodera are adults almost a month later. I do remember seeing an adult female at Indian Rock Wildlife Reserve at a summer program in late July back in 2006, and I found an L4 nymph 3 weeks after I released it with its breveren.


----------

