# Breeding & pheromones



## Synapze (Jun 1, 2019)

I've read that male and female enclosures should be kept separate to prevent males from becoming accustomed to the female's pheromones and show less interest during mating attempts.

Questions:

Is this accurate? If so, is separation only necessary when they reach adulthood? Also, if accurate, what distance should they be separated?

I've always assumed pheromones could be detected by males even from great distances and that keeping them in close proximity would just help get the males revved up and the females more receptive.


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## Viking (Jun 1, 2019)

I would love to know the answer to that question.


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## hysteresis (Jun 1, 2019)

Pheromone saturation. 

I was advised to keep mature males away from from mature females to prevent it.


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## Jaywo (Jun 1, 2019)

I have been advised to keep the males away as well. Although I have to say that because of room restraints, I don't do that unless necessary when I have a hard to breed pair. So far, I don't notice a major issue when the males and females are next to each other in their cages. I still have mating success with those. It's hard to test unless you have a longitudinal study on the variables. I wonder about this question a lot.


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## hysteresis (Jun 1, 2019)

My wife on the two bug areas:

YOUR BUGS ARE SPREADING? YOU'RE TAKING OVER THE WHOLE HOUSE. THAT'S MY BOOKSHELF.


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## hysteresis (Jun 1, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> My wife on the two bug areas:
> 
> YOUR BUGS ARE SPREADING? YOU'RE TAKING OVER THE WHOLE HOUSE. THAT'S MY BOOKSHELF.


Me: BUGS ARE SPREADING? HOLD MY BEER.


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## Synapze (Jun 1, 2019)

Jaywo said:


> I have﻿ ﻿been advised to keep the males awa﻿y as well. Alt﻿hough I have to say that because of room restraint﻿﻿s﻿.


Same here. I could move the females to another room, but I suspect the pheromones would still reach the males. 



hysteresis said:


> Pheromone saturation.
> 
> I was﻿ ﻿advised t﻿o﻿ keep mature males away from from mature females to prevent it.


Any idea how far the pheromones would reach? 

Do you think separation could wait until adulthood or should they be separated as nymphs?


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## Synapze (Jun 1, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> My wife﻿﻿﻿ on the two bug areas:
> 
> YOUR BUGS ARE SPREADING? YOU'RE TAKING OVER THE WHOLE HOUSE. THAT'S ﻿MY BOOKSHELF.


My spouse has developed a "have as many as you want" attitude, but I suspect that's just an excuse to justify a shopping addiction. I'm certain it would be added the the arsenal. 



hysteresis said:


> Me: BUGS﻿﻿﻿ ARE SPREADING﻿? HOLD MY BEER.


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## hysteresis (Jun 1, 2019)

There is always a steady flow of mantises planned weeks in advance.


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## MantisGirl13 (Jun 1, 2019)

In answer to the original question, my first Chinese mantids were kept in the same room next to each other and when it came time for mating, (the female had been calling for a few weeks) the male completely ignored the female. I turned on the fan to circulate air and caught a fresh male from outside. He showed much more interest, although mating never happened because I was a noob and was scared for the male so much that I intervened.

So my answer is yes, pheremone saturation is a fact and it can be prevented by airing the room that the female is in and keeping the male in a separate room. As long as there is a wall or a large space separating them, they should be ok. 



Synapze said:


> always assumed pheromones could be detected by males even from great distances and that keeping﻿﻿﻿ them in close proximity would just help get the males revved up and the females more receptive. ﻿﻿


Yes, but when the pheromones are built up in a smaller area, the male gets so used to them that he ignores them. In the wild, wind distributes there pheromones so they don't collect in a small area. Unfortunately, unless your mantids are kept outside, this cannot really happen in captivity.

Hope that answers your questions!

- MantisGirl13


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## Ben10101 (Jun 12, 2019)

What I do is keep the male away from the females' pheromone "Area of Effect" 2-3 days prior to pairing, this supposedly "starves" the male for her pheromones so when you introduce him 2-3 days later he'll be more interested.


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## Jaywo (Jun 12, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> My wife on the two bug areas:
> 
> YOUR BUGS ARE SPREADING? YOU'RE TAKING OVER THE WHOLE HOUSE. THAT'S MY BOOKSHELF.


 Off topic- 

Yeah, My husband gave me the same speech right before I took over his self space.

On topic- I think I'll try to set up a shed area in the back fro my males and see what happened when they get introduced. Will report back.


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## Synapze (Jun 12, 2019)

Jaywo said:


> Yeah﻿, My husband gave me the same speech right before I took over his self﻿ space.﻿


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## Synapze (Jun 12, 2019)

Ben10101 said:


> What﻿ I﻿ do is keep the male away from the females' pheromone "Area of Effect" 2-3 days prior to pairing, this supposedly "starves" the male for her pheromones so when you introduce him 2-3 days later he'll be more interested﻿.


Great! I kept my Ghost male separated for about a week. Made a breeding attempt over the weekend and he connected with both females.  

Unfortunately, the second female took his head as a trophy. I didn't realize his wings were so pretty until I found them at the bottom of the enclosure.


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## hysteresis (Jun 12, 2019)

Synapze said:


> Unfortunately, the second female took his head as a trophy.


I wonder if she reached around and grappled him while he was still on her, or got him as he dismounted?


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## Synapze (Jun 12, 2019)

@hysteresis I don't know. I thought ghosts weren't so aggressive during mating, so I'll admit I didn't keep as close an eye on them as I should have. He was connected at least 4 hours... hopefully that was long enough.  It doesn't break my heart. I'm not very fond of this species, so once I trade off the ooths and/or females I don't plan on acquiring any more. Great species, just not for me.


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