# Collecting yesterday with ABbuggin



## Rick (Oct 18, 2009)

Went out yesterday to two of my favorite spots. We have had a cool week so the mantids were not very numerous. At the first place we found s. carolina ooths literally everywhere. Also some brunners mantids.

Andrew found this brunners on a brown weed literally within seconds of arriving. I found one soon after but I guess I didn't take a pic:


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## Rick (Oct 18, 2009)

Some other critters. I like the katydid with the blue eyes.

wheel bug


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## Rick (Oct 18, 2009)

Chinese looking pretty sick











Green chinese:
















Brown one:


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## Rick (Oct 18, 2009)

Went over to the spot with the narrow winged mantids. These seem to only be found in one small area. I was happy to see lots of their ooths. Only found a couple of the adults though. THere were some chinese mixed in with them that we moved to the other area.

Narrow wing mantis ooths

&lt;img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/RTrone/Mantids/DSCF7341.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /&gt;

&lt;img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/RTrone/Mantids/DSCF7349.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /&gt;

&lt;img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/RTrone/Mantids/DSCF7350.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /&gt;

Parasitic wasps hatching from this ooth. You can see one of them. They obviously hatch out before winter:

&lt;img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/RTrone/Mantids/DSCF7342.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /&gt;

&lt;img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/RTrone/Mantids/DSCF7343.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /&gt;

Here was something I suspected. Chinese male mating with narrow wing female. There must be some mechanism that prevents him fertilizing her eggs.

&lt;img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/RTrone/Mantids/DSCF7344.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /&gt;

&lt;img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/RTrone/Mantids/DSCF7345.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /&gt;

Really rough narrow wing female. She had a wound like many of them did that we think is caused by the thorns on the plants.

&lt;img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/RTrone/Mantids/DSCF7346.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /&gt;

&lt;img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/RTrone/Mantids/DSCF7347.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /&gt;

&lt;img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/RTrone/Mantids/DSCF7348.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /&gt;


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## Rick (Oct 18, 2009)

Brown narrow winged female:






Was a nice trip even though we only found one caroilna in an area full of their ooths. I am not sure where they adults were at. I found many last time I went. I am very curious to know how the mating between the chinese and narrow wing works, if it does.


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## ABbuggin (Oct 18, 2009)

You got some good pics.  The carolina ooths were so thick in areas, it was lie picking grapes! I saw several sticks with two ooths, and some with three!!! :blink: But, they were only like that by the bridge pillars.

If anything does come of the chinese x narrow wing, we will find out because I will be saving her ooths.


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## Rick (Oct 18, 2009)

ABbuggin said:


> You got some good pics.  The carolina ooths were so thick in areas, it was lie picking grapes! I saw several sticks with two ooths, and some with three!!! :blink: But, they were only like that by the bridge pillars.If anything does come of the chinese x narrow wing, we will find out because I will be saving her ooths.


I was wondering if you would. She has probably been mated before so I am not sure.


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## Rick (Oct 18, 2009)

Forgot a pic!


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## Katnapper (Oct 18, 2009)

Nice pics. Looks like you had a productive day.  Glad you two were able to arrange to get together and go... that's nice.

 

What was the deal with those 2 S. carolina ooths together on that stick (about 5th &amp; 6th pics)... what's that in the middle? Or was it one that somehow got bent/separated?


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## ABbuggin (Oct 18, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Nice pics. Looks like you had a productive day.  Glad you two were able to arrange to get together and go... that's nice.
> 
> What was the deal with those 2 S. carolina ooths together on that stick (about 5th &amp; 6th pics)... what's that in the middle? Or was it one that somehow got bent/separated?


That was an ooth I found. It was only one ooth, an odd one at that. I actually have it and I'm pretty sure it will hatch.  My best guess was the female got disturbed while laying and continued on another surface; but I found it only attached to the single stick.


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## Katnapper (Oct 18, 2009)

ABbuggin said:


> That was an ooth I found. It was only one ooth, an odd one at that. I actually have it and I'm pretty sure it will hatch.  My best guess was the female got disturbed while laying and continued on another surface; but I found it only attached to the single stick.


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## revmdn (Oct 18, 2009)

I wish I had some friends around here to look for bugs. Maybe when the kid gets a little older.


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## NoKanDo (Oct 18, 2009)

wow great pics! you guys are very lucky you can go out and just find mantis' like that, I'd have to drive an hour away to find mantises


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## Christian (Oct 18, 2009)

The interspecific mating should not yield any fertile offspring, if any.

Did you keep the wheel bug? I have a collegue who is interested in those ones.


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## cloud jaguar (Oct 18, 2009)

That looks like another great trip! I cant believe how manymantids there are there!


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## ABbuggin (Oct 18, 2009)

Christian said:


> The interspecific mating should not yield any fertile offspring, if any.Did you keep the wheel bug? I have a collegue who is interested in those ones.


I have the wheel bug.  She is actually pregnant, and should lay soon. If your collegue wants several, he needs to contact me later next year, I am pretty good at finding them (early to late summer).


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## Christian (Oct 18, 2009)

ABbuggin said:


> I have the wheel bug.  She is actually pregnant, and should lay soon. If your collegue wants several, he needs to contact me later next year, I am pretty good at finding them (early to late summer).


No chance that he might get the pregnant one that lays soon and you search for other ones?  

Or at least some of the eggs?


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## Rick (Oct 18, 2009)

Christian said:


> The interspecific mating should not yield any fertile offspring, if any.Did you keep the wheel bug? I have a collegue who is interested in those ones.


Even though they are closely related? I never find anything that looks like a mix, it is either one or the other. These two are pretty similar so I was not surprised to see they will mate.


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## Christian (Oct 18, 2009)

The lack of hybrids points to the fact that they don't seem to be genetically compatible.


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## MantidLord (Oct 18, 2009)

Christian said:


> The lack of hybrids points to the fact that they don't seem to be genetically compatible.


Question: How could you tell there are a lack of hybrids? What if they take on the physical traits of one of the species and are able to mate with either one?


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## Christian (Oct 18, 2009)

Because it contradicts the biospecies concept. T. sinensis and T. angustipennis live sympatrically in the natural habitat in Asia where they evolved. If there weren't a genetic barrier they would have merged to one species long ago.


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## Rick (Oct 18, 2009)

Christian said:


> Because it contradicts the biospecies concept. T. sinensis and T. angustipennis live sympatrically in the natural habitat in Asia where they evolved. If there weren't a genetic barrier they would have merged to one species long ago.


So T. angustipennis originates from the same area? There doesn't seem to be much information on them. I have been curious about where they came from.


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## Christian (Oct 18, 2009)

They are both occurring in E Asia (China, Japan), with differing abundances in certain regions. At least _T. sinensis_ seems to reach the subtropical regions of SE Asia, where it is replaced by _T. aridifolia_. In the Asian tropics there are more species. So _T. aridifolia_, _T. sinensi_s and _T. angustipennis_ seem to have originated through vicariance or reproductive or geographical barriers in different regions and subsequently dispersed and met again, overlapping more or less (data lacking to what extent). At this point, the reproductive barrier was established already.

There were some studies by L. Hurd _et al._ in Eastern USA, showing that the two species exhibit niche separation strategies: _T. angustipennis_ lives higher in the vegetation, and hatches later. _T. sinensis_ is larger than _T. angustipennis_ and hatches earlier. This allows the nymphs to exploit different prey sizes and _T. sinensis_ to prey on _T. angustipennis_. However, _T. sinensis_ may hatch too early and die from starvation or late frosts. The situation becomes still more interesting when you add _M. religiosa_ (which lives lower in the vegetation and avoids the other two species) or every other sympatric mantid (the studies dealt only with these three though).


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## Rick (Oct 18, 2009)

Christian said:


> They are both occurring in E Asia (China, Japan), with differing abundances in certain regions. At least _T. sinensis_ seems to reach the subtropical regions of SE Asia, where it is replaced by _T. aridifolia_. In the Asian tropics there are more species. So _T. aridifolia_, _T. sinensi_s and _T. angustipennis_ seem to have originated through vicariance or reproductive or geographical barriers in different regions and subsequently dispersed and met again, overlapping more or less (data lacking to what extent). At this point, the reproductive barrier was established already.There were some studies by L. Hurd _et al._ in Eastern USA, showing that the two species exhibit niche separation strategies: _T. angustipennis_ lives higher in the vegetation, and hatches later. _T. sinensis_ is larger than _T. angustipennis_ and hatches earlier. This allows the nymphs to exploit different prey sizes and _T. sinensis_ to prey on _T. angustipennis_. However, _T. sinensis_ may hatch too early and die from starvation or late frosts. The situation becomes still more interesting when you add _M. religiosa_ (which lives lower in the vegetation and avoids the other two species) or every other sympatric mantid (the studies dealt only with these three though).


Very interesting. Thanks. About them living in different areas of the vegetation, I find both species at all levels. I know they prey on stagmomantis which may explain seeing few of them in the same area.


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## ismart (Oct 18, 2009)

Rick said:


> Very interesting. Thanks. About them living in different areas of the vegetation, I find both species at all levels. I know they prey on stagmomantis which may explain seeing few of them in the same area.


Thats rather sad that these two introduced species are displacing/feeding on the native species in the area.


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## ABbuggin (Oct 18, 2009)

Christian, I sent you a PM.


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## hibiscusmile (Oct 18, 2009)

Christian said:


> They are both occurring in E Asia (China, Japan), with differing abundances in certain regions. At least _T. sinensis_ seems to reach the subtropical regions of SE Asia, where it is replaced by _T. aridifolia_. In the Asian tropics there are more species. So _T. aridifolia_, _T. sinensi_s and _T. angustipennis_ seem to have originated through vicariance or reproductive or geographical barriers in different regions and subsequently dispersed and met again, overlapping more or less (data lacking to what extent). At this point, the reproductive barrier was established already.There were some studies by L. Hurd _et al._ in Eastern USA, showing that the two species exhibit niche separation strategies: _T. angustipennis_ lives higher in the vegetation, and hatches later. _T. sinensis_ is larger than _T. angustipennis_ and hatches earlier. This allows the nymphs to exploit different prey sizes and _T. sinensis_ to prey on _T. angustipennis_. However, _T. sinensis_ may hatch too early and die from starvation or late frosts. The situation becomes still more interesting when you add _M. religiosa_ (which lives lower in the vegetation and avoids the other two species) or every other sympatric mantid (the studies dealt only with these three though).


That is what I thought, due to where I find the three different ones I have here on my farm, the M. religiosa always lays ankle height here while the T. Sinensis always lays knee height, rarely ever find either of them on different levels. Thanks for comfirming that!


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## Christian (Oct 19, 2009)

As far as I checked the literature, _St. carolina_ has lower population numbers than the introduced ones, whether they occur in the same area or not. I don't know any case in which a mantid species has extirpated another sympatric one. In tropical savannas there a lot of species coexisting. Even though interspecific predation occurs, with T. sinensis having a size advantage and high abundances, the other species usually will not vanish, but have somewhat lower population sizes. At least I haven't read anything that would point to this yet.


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## Ntsees (Oct 19, 2009)

ABbuggin said:


> You got some good pics.  The carolina ooths were so thick in areas, it was lie picking grapes! I saw several sticks with two ooths, and some with three!!! :blink: But, they were only like that by the bridge pillars.If anything does come of the chinese x narrow wing, we will find out because I will be saving her ooths.


Like what Rick said, she probably was already mated before with her own species and so her ooths will hatch. To find the real answer though, you'd have to use a non-mated female. But like in most cases, the result may be an infertile ooth. But then again, nature has gray areas and so you don't always know what to expect.


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## MantidLord (Oct 21, 2009)

Christian said:


> As far as I checked the literature, _St. carolina_ has lower population numbers than the introduced ones, whether they occur in the same area or not. I don't know any case in which a mantid species has extirpated another sympatric one. In tropical savannas there a lot of species coexisting. Even though interspecific predation occurs, with T. sinensis having a size advantage and high abundances, the other species usually will not vanish, but have somewhat lower population sizes. At least I haven't read anything that would point to this yet.


Very interesting stuff Christian. I read about the whole hatching interval and late frost topic in The Praying Mantids. But are you sure that there was never some hardly documented species of mantis that was wiped out by new comers? Also, could the three Tenedora sp that you mentioned have been a single species but changed due to geographic differences? (true that could be said for a lot of species these days but bare with me).I also had no idea where angustipennis was native too. I read it was native to the states and found no contradicting info on the matter.


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## Christian (Oct 21, 2009)

I read a lot of literature already and never heard of a mantis species wiped out by another. The only species that are endangered are threatened by habitat loss or small distribution areas. Most of those also co-occur with other, larger, species. As I said before, mantids can well coexist in the same habitat. The more species there are, the lower the abundances of individual species. It must be said in this context, that the Nearktis (= N-America) is very empoverished regarding its mantid fauna, that is, it is not as saturated with species as latitude and the climatic conditions would suggest. While most N-American taxa are more diverse than the European counterparts (birds, mammals, reptiles, butterflies, beetles etc.), the situation is reversed in mantids. That's why the 4 new mantid species were able to colonize the N-American continent so fast. As some of the S-American taxa seem to have invaded S-America via N-America, the reasons for the depauperate state isn't to be found in missing chances but rather in extinction events during the Pleistocene and possibly the Pliocene. As a tropical group, mantids do not well with Ice Ages...

_Tenodera_ is a paleotropical group which spread out into the temperate zone of East Asia (not a temperate group as suggested by Hurd _et al_.). You see this in the fact that _T. sinensis_ doesn't have an obligate diapause: if you keep the ooths warm, they will hatch. Temperate species adjust their diapause via daylight cycle, not temperature.

A speciation event only occurs if a reproductive barrier is established. The nature of this barrier may be diverse. Geographical barriers are the best known ones. _T. sinensis, aridifolia_ and _angustipennis_ are very similar and most probably closely related. If a geographical barrier facilitated speciation, they must have been separated for a long period of time, long enough for reproductive incompatibilities to become established. Subsequent overlap of area wasn't a problem then. It has to be considered that there are several other species known, which may or may not be closely related to one of the three.


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## ABbuggin (Oct 21, 2009)

Thought it woudl be interesting to note that the female Carolina Rick found is filled with parasites. I can see them move around through her abdomen.


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## Rick (Oct 21, 2009)

ABbuggin said:


> Thought it woudl be interesting to note that the female Carolina Rick found is filled with parasites. I can see them move around through her abdomen.


I have never found an adult with parasites. Got a pic?


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## ABbuggin (Oct 21, 2009)

Rick said:


> I have never found an adult with parasites. Got a pic?


I guess you have now.  I have found an infected adult female before (Carolina).

I'll put some up later on today, but they have eaten at her abdomen lining making it somewhat transparent. I can see them move through the lining. :blink:


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## Matticus (Oct 21, 2009)

ABbuggin said:


> I guess you have now.  I have found an infected adult female before (Carolina).I'll put some up later on today, but they have eaten at her abdomen lining making it somewhat transparent. I can see them move through the lining. :blink:


That is absolutely fascinating.


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## Rick (Oct 21, 2009)

ABbuggin said:


> I guess you have now.  I have found an infected adult female before (Carolina).I'll put some up later on today, but they have eaten at her abdomen lining making it somewhat transparent. I can see them move through the lining. :blink:


Could add this to the parasite thread. On more than one occasion I have had a situation where I could see through the abdomen in certain areas and see what could be mistaken as something moving inside.


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## ABbuggin (Oct 21, 2009)

I will add the pics to the parasite thread. I am positive that there are maggots inside because I saw them, one almost crawled out. On another account, she is about dead. I would go ahead and kill her, but I am going to wait until the maggots emerge so that I can preserve them and the resulting flies for public display.


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## MantidLord (Oct 21, 2009)

Christian said:


> I read a lot of literature already and never heard of a mantis species wiped out by another. The only species that are endangered are threatened by habitat loss or small distribution areas. Most of those also co-occur with other, larger, species. As I said before, mantids can well coexist in the same habitat. The more species there are, the lower the abundances of individual species. It must be said in this context, that the Nearktis (= N-America) is very empoverished regarding its mantid fauna, that is, it is not as saturated with species as latitude and the climatic conditions would suggest. While most N-American taxa are more diverse than the European counterparts (birds, mammals, reptiles, butterflies, beetles etc.), the situation is reversed in mantids. That's why the 4 new mantid species were able to colonize the N-American continent so fast. As some of the S-American taxa seem to have invaded S-America via N-America, the reasons for the depauperate state isn't to be found in missing chances but rather in extinction events during the Pleistocene and possibly the Pliocene. As a tropical group, mantids do not well with Ice Ages..._Tenodera_ is a paleotropical group which spread out into the temperate zone of East Asia (not a temperate group as suggested by Hurd _et al_.). You see this in the fact that _T. sinensis_ doesn't have an obligate diapause: if you keep the ooths warm, they will hatch. Temperate species adjust their diapause via daylight cycle, not temperature.
> 
> A speciation event only occurs if a reproductive barrier is established. The nature of this barrier may be diverse. Geographical barriers are the best known ones. _T. sinensis, aridifolia_ and _angustipennis_ are very similar and most probably closely related. If a geographical barrier facilitated speciation, they must have been separated for a long period of time, long enough for reproductive incompatibilities to become established. Subsequent overlap of area wasn't a problem then. It has to be considered that there are several other species known, which may or may not be closely related to one of the three.


Very fascinating indeed. So if the S. American species "invaded" through N. America, why weren't they able to sustain a population in N. America? Also, you mention that _T sinensis_ doesn't need diapause, so I'm "assuming" that _angustipennis_ and/or _aridifolia _do. And by several other species, do you mean species in the origin area of those three, or species in the same genus that aren't closely related? One more thing, do you think if speciation did occur, which one (if any of them) would have been the "main" species that the other ones branched off of?


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## Rick (Oct 22, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Very fascinating indeed. So if the S. American species "invaded" through N. America, why weren't they able to sustain a population in N. America? Also, you mention that _T sinensis_ doesn't need diapause, so I'm "assuming" that _angustipennis_ and/or _aridifolia _do. And by several other species, do you mean species in the origin area of those three, or species in the same genus that aren't closely related? One more thing, do you think if speciation did occur, which one (if any of them) would have been the "main" species that the other ones branched off of?


I'm incubating a angustipennis ooth without a cold period. Will update this if it hatches.


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## Christian (Oct 22, 2009)

> Very fascinating indeed. So if the S. American species "invaded" through N. America, why weren't they able to sustain a population in N. America?


 The Ice Ages wiped out most tropical fauna. At that point there weren't many tropical taxa left anyway, as tropical forests disappeared during the Miocene cooling. Those taxa with tropical relatives (Stagmomantis, Mantoida, Thesprotia, Brunneria etc.) re-invaded N-America later.



> Also, you mention that T sinensis doesn't need diapause, so I'm "assuming" that angustipennis and/or aridifolia do.


No. I don't know about _angustipennis_, but _aridifolia_ is a tropical species and doesn't need diapause.



> And by several other species, do you mean species in the origin area of those three, or species in the same genus that aren't closely related?


The latter.



> One more thing, do you think if speciation did occur, which one (if any of them) would have been the "main" species that the other ones branched off of?


Such a thing doesn't exist. The extant species have undergone all about the same time of evolution. The original taxon doesn't exist anymore.


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## MantidLord (Oct 25, 2009)

Christian said:


> The Ice Ages wiped out most tropical fauna. At that point there weren't many tropical taxa left anyway, as tropical forests disappeared during the Miocene cooling. Those taxa with tropical relatives (Stagmomantis, Mantoida, Thesprotia, Brunneria etc.) re-invaded N-America later.No. I don't know about _angustipennis_, but _aridifolia_ is a tropical species and doesn't need diapause.
> 
> The latter.
> 
> Such a thing doesn't exist. The extant species have undergone all about the same time of evolution. The original taxon doesn't exist anymore.


Wow, okay. Thanks a lot for the information Christian. I wonder how you can determine how close the species are compared to others in the same genus.


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## Ntsees (Oct 25, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Wow, okay. Thanks a lot for the information Christian. I wonder how you can determine how close the species are compared to others in the same genus.


You would have to genetically analyze them and the more similar gene markers they have, the more related they are. I'm not a geneticist so someone more familiar with it can go into more detail.


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## MantidLord (Oct 25, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> You would have to genetically analyze them and the more similar gene markers they have, the more related they are. I'm not a geneticist so someone more familiar with it can go into more detail.


Well...good thing I'm in a Genetics class. Too bad we haven't gotten in depth yet.


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## Ntsees (Oct 26, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Well...good thing I'm in a Genetics class. Too bad we haven't gotten in depth yet.


Oh ok. You'll cover it later I hope. It is an important part of the course.


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## revmdn (Oct 26, 2009)

So Rick, when you go out for these "hunts" do you have a backpack filled with deli containers, and maybe a net? How do you prepare, what's your setup?


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## Mantibama (Oct 26, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> You would have to genetically analyze them and the more similar gene markers they have, the more related they are. I'm not a geneticist so someone more familiar with it can go into more detail.


Well you would first need a full genome for both species. The current most common sequencing method is sanger sequencing, which uses ddNTP that is absent of hydroxyl groups on both the 2nd and 3rd carbon of the ribose to create varying DNA fragments in polymerase chain reactions. The ddNTP also generally have a radioactive marker so they can be sequenced properly as they migrate through a medium based on molecular weight (DNA is negatively charged and moves through a current and heavier molecules obviously migrate slower). There are a lot of next generation sequencers that are coming out that might get this done faster then the current sanger sequencing technique which can only look at one part of the sequence at a time, but you'd also need a lot of $$$  . If your interested you can google the Illumana sequencer which is a quite impressive display of the future potential of genetics. After sequencing you could compare the sequences for highly conserved areas which would actually be pretty plentiful across the board for all mantis species and probably a lot of other insects too (protein complexes, metabolic cycles, etc. are similar for quite a lot of animals). I suspect the major differences would be found within hox gene locations as these play a major role in the form of an animal and any similarities there would suggest close relation. However, as eukaryotes, mantids have quite a lot of "junk DNA" or introns (we actually don't really know if it's junk) that are excised from RNA before translation, so simple comparison of sequences may not be enough. This is why a lot of research involves turning gene expression on and off and seeing what happens in a life form. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.


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