# Why no Mantis religiosa in Southeastern United States?



## happy1892 (Jul 14, 2013)

Why are there no Mantis religiosa in the southeastern US? I am in North Carolina and cannot find any. They live in the Northeastern United States, why have they not spread here?


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## brancsikia339 (Jul 14, 2013)

I can't find them on long island...


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## Rick (Jul 14, 2013)

Too warm I believe. They need a good cold period in the ooth. We already have two non native species here, don't need another. We have four total species present in NC.


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## happy1892 (Jul 14, 2013)

They do not need a cold period. I have read that the northern limit of B. borealis was Raleigh. How about Wake Forest, North Carolina? I could not find any here. The climate should be the same.

Edit: Oh yeah, they do live in Wake County.


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## happy1892 (Jul 14, 2013)

So are there no Thesprotia graminis in North Carolina?


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## MantidLord (Jul 14, 2013)

Where did you read that M. religiosa did not need a cold period?


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## happy1892 (Jul 14, 2013)

These Mantis religiosa live in tropical southern californica.


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## psyconiko (Jul 15, 2013)

Tropical?I learned California had a mediterranean climate.M. religiosa species does not like high humidity level¨,they like dry summers,that s why it is not common in the southeastern sates.That s all.

Some asian M. religiosa subspecies may tolerate High humidity but not the one living in the USA.

I also believe some other introduced species(Tenodera,Iris) may challenge M. religiosa,explaining its limited occupation in some states.


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## MantidLord (Jul 15, 2013)

I didn't no SoCal was considered "tropical" but nevertheless, try taking an ooth from there and hatching it without subjecting it to the cold. If you get a hatch, the nymphs will probably be weak and die off quickly.


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## psyconiko (Jul 15, 2013)

M. religiosa can be found in the South of France where the climate is almost exactly the same you can find in the South of California.

You get mild winter,no problem for hatching them.


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## psyconiko (Jul 15, 2013)

Here you can see the climate is roughly the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_climate


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## Rick (Jul 15, 2013)

happy1892 said:


> They do not need a cold period. I have read that the northern limit of B. borealis was Raleigh. How about Wake Forest, North Carolina? I could not find any here. The climate should be the same.
> 
> Edit: Oh yeah, they do live in Wake County.


Yes they do which is why they likely do not occur here. The humidity is also very high here. If you notice they tend to be found in places with colder winters than we have here.

B. borealis is found in Wake County but more commonly near the coast. They take a lot of luck and technique to find. I know some places around here where they live but even then it takes hours to even find one.

We do not have T. graminis. NC has four species like I mentioned; T. angustipennis, T. sinensis, B. borealis, and S. carolina.


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## Domanating (Jul 15, 2013)

That's kind of weird. North Carolina has almost the same latitude as Portugal and here there are unlimited M. Religiosa everywhere.

Also I do live in and area where humidity is unusually high all year but this species still thrives here. However, Winters are rigorous and yes, they need a cold period.


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## gripen (Jul 15, 2013)

I am in the NE and we do not have any here.


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## happy1892 (Jul 15, 2013)

I was told that it was tropical. How about far south of California? Are you sure that they cannot live in humid climates? Are the ones in Portugal the same subspecies as in the US? Is NE Nabraska? Anybody raise these European Mantids without a diapause?


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## gripen (Jul 15, 2013)

happy1892 said:


> I was told that it was tropical. How about far south of California? Are you sure that they cannot live in humid climates? Are the ones in Portugal the same subspecies as in the US? Is NE Nabraska? Anybody raise these European Mantids without a diapause?


NE is North East, dorry if that was ambiguous.


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## happy1892 (Jul 15, 2013)

Okay. Anybody live in a humid climate with European Mantids?


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## MantidLord (Jul 15, 2013)

Well Mexico is south of California and if I'm not mistaken, it's pretty dry until you keep going deep into the south. I remember an old thread about Europeans that didn't require diapause. But if I'm not mistaken they were from Africa and probably a different subspecies.


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## Dracus (Jul 15, 2013)

I don't believe that the reason is climate. Even though there are differences in tolerance between the subspecies, every one of them is still very plastic. For instance, in Russia we have the same subspecies (polonica) from 58 degrees north (in taiga zone, with winters as cold as -30 Celsius) to the southern border of the country (e.g., Black Sea, where there is no cold season at all). Absence in NC is probably because of the pressure from Tenodera species.


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## Rick (Jul 16, 2013)

Dracus said:


> Absence in NC is probably because of the pressure from Tenodera species.


That certainly would be a factor but Tenodera are not everywhere, if Mantis could persist here I think they would still be found in some areas without Tenodera. Perhaps they just haven't made it here yet. Part of the reason for the rampant spread of Tenodera is people buying the ooths and putting them out in their gardens. Are Mantis ooths as widely available for that purpose?


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## MantidLord (Jul 16, 2013)

But the presence of Tenodera doesn't seen to affect the coexistence with Mantis religiosa in places like Delaware, where both Tenodera sp and M religiosa coexist.


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## Rick (Jul 16, 2013)

MantidLord said:


> But the presence of Tenodera doesn't seen to affect the coexistence with Mantis religiosa in places like Delaware, where both Tenodera sp and M religiosa coexist.


Excellent point. I think it is climate or simply geographical.


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## Domanating (Jul 16, 2013)

happy1892 said:


> Okay. Anybody live in a humid climate with European Mantids?


I live in foothill of a small mountain just 3-4 Km away from the sea. It's a very green region and the combination of the sea plus the mountain and weather turns it into an unusually humid area in comparison to the rest of the country. According to my barometer, typical humidity levels range between 60 to 80%. In hot the days of summer it can decrease a lot but for a very short period of time.

I've been catching this species here since ever. Yesterday I caught 3 new M. Religiosas in less than 5 minutes in a 2 square meter patch of green medium sized grass. Their age ranges around L4-L6


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## happy1892 (Jul 16, 2013)

Tenodera sinensis very common here. My area might be more humid than your area in Portugal. Is it always wet there? It is here. I cannot find any Tenodera angustipennis.....


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## Rick (Jul 17, 2013)

happy1892 said:


> Tenodera sinensis very common here. My area might be more humid than your area in Portugal. Is it always wet there? It is here. I cannot find any Tenodera angustipennis.....


They are quite patchy in their distribution. I lived here for twelve years before finding my first one by accident. I have a place down here that I find them if you're ever in the area.


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## Domanating (Jul 17, 2013)

happy1892 said:


> Tenodera sinensis very common here. My area might be more humid than your area in Portugal. Is it always wet there? It is here. I cannot find any Tenodera angustipennis.....


Mostly cloudy, even in hot summer days but not wet. I almost always fail to find Mantids after a rainy day or morning/evening dew.

That might be your problem then.


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## happy1892 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rick said:


> They are quite patchy in their distribution. I lived here for twelve years before finding my first one by accident. I have a place down here that I find them if you're ever in the area.


They are patchy compared to South Korea. But it seems like less patchy than where you are. I often find one wandering around in lawn grass but still a lot of the time I cannot find them in patches of grass with a lot of insects.



Domanating said:


> Mostly cloudy, even in hot summer days but not wet. I almost always fail to find Mantids after a rainy day or morning/evening dew.
> 
> That might be your problem then.


I never noticed something like that. It rains every few days here.


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## Rick (Jul 18, 2013)

happy1892 said:


> They are patchy compared to South Korea. But it seems like less patchy than where you are. I often find one wandering around in lawn grass but still a lot of the time I cannot find them in patches of grass with a lot of insects.
> 
> I never noticed something like that. It rains every few days here.


That is because that is their native range as far as I know. So you can find them or you can't? You said earlier you couldn't, but just now said you often find one wandering in lawn grass. Talking about T. angustipennis.


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## happy1892 (Jul 18, 2013)

Oh, I was talking about T. sinensis. I haven't found any T. angustipennis.


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## Rick (Jul 19, 2013)

happy1892 said:


> Oh, I was talking about T. sinensis. I haven't found any T. angustipennis.


I find them in Eastern NC fairly often. I know a place where they are found in decent numbers.


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## jrh3 (Jul 19, 2013)

i find Chinese and carolina mantis in my yard. im hoping this year will be euro mantis ooths laid on my property, lol.


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## happy1892 (Jul 19, 2013)

Jrh3 have you seen euros in your area?


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## agent A (Jul 21, 2013)

I've seen wild euros in Vermont before

ironically they are the state insect of CT even though they aren't even native or very common here &lt;_&lt;


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## happy1892 (Feb 10, 2014)

http://bugguide.net/node/view/35194

Here it says Oligonicella live in Maryland or does it mean they are just south of Maryland? I think that is Interesting.


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## happy1892 (Feb 10, 2014)

Temperature seems to vary at different parts of the world at same latitudes. Mountains are colder because of the altitude. Oceans can make temperature mild.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110615211334AAPQ1fL'

This is fun to read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Seoul


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## PlayingMantis (Feb 11, 2014)

The only mantids I ever found here where I currently live are Chinese mantids. Back when I lived in New Mexico, there was much more variety.


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## devetaki9 (Feb 18, 2014)

Got plenty of Euros here in New Hampshire, haven't found a lot of T Sinensis lately.. Except for the hundred or so currently residing in my bathroom *grin


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## SkittishMale (Feb 19, 2014)

I live in southern Ontario and Mantis religiosa is the only species that can be found in the wild here. Tenodera sinensis ooths are sold as biological control for gardens but I don't believe that this species has successfully naturalized here.

I always diapause the ooths of M. religiosa because in the wild of southern Ontario, they experience a cold winter.


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