# Is there any way to save this?



## Gwan-Thwei (Jul 12, 2014)

Hey gang

Kind of at a loss as to what to do. I went outside to check on my mantis and found he had just shed. I couldn't tell you what instar he's in, he's only about two and a half inches long and still hasn't developed his wings yet. He's a chinese mantis, so they're hardy, but...i really don't know if he can survive past this.

As i was saying before, i found him molting, only, it wasn't on the ceiling of the enclosure. It was under the large stick he perches on. Now this happened the last time i found him molting, so i wasn't too stressed, but when i picked him up, it became quite clear that he hadn't shed right _at all._











His legs (aside from the one still in his moult and the one he chewed off or fell off) are all twisted and hardened. I picked him up to see if i could straighten them out but they had already set at unusual angles. He can't even stand on them. His front legs (i tried to get a picture, but my phone is kind of shitty) are actually _twisting over each other_. I tried to carefully nudge them apart, but when he goes to crawl or grab at something they get twisted all over again. There's the possibility that he might moult just fine next time, but he can't even balance on his stomach, let alone hang upside down. 

Now i'm an amateur at best, so i have no idea if this can be fixed. Any tips you have help, and i would prefer not to euthanize him (i've grown more attached to him than i would like to admit). If worst comes to worst, suggest quick and painless ways to put him down so he doesn't have to die slowly in the freezer.


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## Aryia (Jul 12, 2014)

Can he hang upside down on his own? Sometimes they adapt to their situation in the weirdest ways and actually make it through, but unless he can hang upside down he won't be able to molt again in which case it would be best to put him out of his misery. Quickest way if you're not too squirmish would be just to squish his entire body (it needs to be the entire body since mantises can live without their heads/limbs for quite a while). If you stick him in the freezer his metabolism will just slow down until he's in a sleeplike state and then pass away, at least that's what I imagine will happen.


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## Gwan-Thwei (Jul 12, 2014)

He hadn't moved from where i put him back in the cage for an hour and a half.

Gave him some honey (it might be beneficial, and if not it'll make my mantis happy), some water, and moistened the leg he hadn't finished shedding. After a few moments he shed the leg and i held it as straight as it could be while it dried. I found out the reason he crosses his front legs is because the right one is twisted and naturally curves over the left one. He regrew the leg i had to cut after the last bad moult, but it's folded in over itself and probably doesn't work. His breathing moves his whole body, but i can't tell if that's because it's hard for him to breathe or if it's just because he's resting his weight on his abdomen.

I dunno guys, i mean he can't move but he's still just as alert as ever. I tried feeding him, and even though he didn't grab it he sat up and pointed his antennae at it like he was interested.


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## Toxic (Jul 12, 2014)

I doubt he will be able to moult... You could keep him alive awhile by hand feeding but I donut it'll work long....

Beat of luck on what ever road you decide to take...


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## Aryia (Jul 12, 2014)

It doesn't matter if he can't move, as long as he can hang upside down on his own he could find a way to molt and fix himself. I've had a really bad mismolt that was missing 2 of his back legs, and he couldn't really move on his own either. But I made sure he was hanging on his own when he was close to his molt, and he fixed himself just fine.

Just let him cling on to the lid and see if he can hold himself upside down.


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## Gwan-Thwei (Jul 12, 2014)

He can't hang onto the lid. His legs are too bent to do much else besides sitting.

I spread some netting over the branch and put soft terrarium liner (stuff i use for my tortoise) underneath so he can still sit up. I'll try feeding him tomorrow.


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## Toxic (Jul 13, 2014)

Aryia said:


> It doesn't matter if he can't move, as long as he can hang upside down on his own he could find a way to molt and fix himself. I've had a really bad mismolt that was missing 2 of his back legs, and he couldn't really move on his own either. But I made sure he was hanging on his own when he was close to his molt, and he fixed himself just fine.
> 
> Just let him cling on to the lid and see if he can hold himself upside down.


I agree as I've had the same when I first started nymphs with 2 missing legs but still able to hunt, however if you look at the pictures in 1st post u can see he's a leg one leg stuck in a moult which once free will be benta nd the free legs are all bent up also so the hooks will never be able to grip any surface to even start moult...

Sorry to say if he's unable to hang he won't make it to he's next moult....


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## rickyveloz33 (Jul 14, 2014)

What if its about to molt and u just tape the legs and hang it upside down? Would that work?


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## MantidBro (Jul 14, 2014)

rickyveloz33 said:


> What if its about to molt and u just tape the legs and hang it upside down? Would that work?


i had a mantid whos legs were all mangled, i used tape to stick him, but even though he was getting ready to molt, he started pulling away from the tape, trying to get free, and the tarsa tore. lost two feet.

though i do think that would work but the mantid would have to actually be in the process of molting, so they wont try to get free.

although in my experience a mantid that cant move ends up dying on its own for some reason.

theres always a chance though. id feed him a bunch so his next molt will come quicker. and then keep a good eye on him. wait until hes actually trying to force himself out of the exoskeleton, then tape him up. its best to put the foot between a folded piece of tape, then get another piece of tape, and tape it to which ever surface. they can lose limbs or feet if their foot is taped in too odd an angle.


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## Gwan-Thwei (Jul 14, 2014)

He is moving around (pulling himself by his forelimbs - how weird is that?) but his legs are still pretty useless. The one i thought would be safe is now bent and crumpled, and my mantis has chewed part of it off. He's still not eating, but he is drinking and eating honey. 

I considered taping him up for his next moult, but i'm not exactly sure when that would be. He hadn't grown much since the last time he moulted either, so i have no idea how old he is. How long would it usually take for him to moult again?


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## MantidBro (Jul 14, 2014)

Gwan-Thwei said:


> He is moving around (pulling himself by his forelimbs - how weird is that?) but his legs are still pretty useless. The one i thought would be safe is now bent and crumpled, and my mantis has chewed part of it off. He's still not eating, but he is drinking and eating honey.
> 
> I considered taping him up for his next moult, but i'm not exactly sure when that would be. He hadn't grown much since the last time he moulted either, so i have no idea how old he is. How long would it usually take for him to moult again?


it might be impossible for him to catch his own food. mantids have to balanace on their hind legs when striking prey with their "arms". you may have to hand feed him, by taking an insect, squishing it so the guts pop out, then holding it at his mouth as he eats it. ive had to do this, it can be time consuming, but worth it.

he looks to me to be a subadult, i think he would be an adult by his next molt. it takes about a month once at this stage. you could speed up the process by feeding him a lot.


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## Gwan-Thwei (Jul 15, 2014)

He ate today, which is good, and he tried climbing again. Would feeding him a lot of honey speed things along any?


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## MantidBro (Jul 15, 2014)

Gwan-Thwei said:


> He ate today, which is good, and he tried climbing again. Would feeding him a lot of honey speed things along any?


thats good, what did he eat? honeys not exactly very filling, i think he will need more than that, have you tried hand feeding him insects?


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## Gwan-Thwei (Jul 16, 2014)

I fed him a grasshopper nymph. I have no problem holding his food while he figures out how to strike. I think he just had to figure out how to adapt to not using his legs.


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## MantidBro (Jul 17, 2014)

Gwan-Thwei said:


> I fed him a grasshopper nymph. I have no problem holding his food while he figures out how to strike. I think he just had to figure out how to adapt to not using his legs.


Thats good keep trying to feed him grasshopper nymphs or whatever else, its best to give him insects, honey is really just beneficial for health, not external deformities so much. Good luck


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## [email protected] (Jul 18, 2014)

I'm so sorry. I have an adult female in the same situation. It is heartbreaking. My heart goes out to you and your little one


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## Gwan-Thwei (Jul 25, 2014)

Would it be possible for me to make a temporary prosthesis for him out of tape? His back legs aren't the same length and have no feet anyway...


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## MantidBro (Jul 26, 2014)

Gwan-Thwei said:


> Would it be possible for me to make a temporary prosthesis for him out of tape? His back legs aren't the same length and have no feet anyway...


He might eat the tape, if your meaning you want to use it permanately. If you mean for just the molt id hold off til hes actually JUST about to molt cause he will try to get lose and may tear his legs. I learned that the hard way!


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## Aryia (Jul 29, 2014)

Tape and mantises don't mix well. I don't think eating would be your worst problem, mantises just get entangled in tape all the time, in the most impossible ways. And tape somehow loves mantises, it's impossible to get them back out without harming the mantis.


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## MantidBro (Jul 29, 2014)

Aryia said:


> Tape and mantises don't mix well. I don't think eating would be your worst problem, mantises just get entangled in tape all the time, in the most impossible ways. And tape somehow loves mantises, it's impossible to get them back out without harming the mantis.


Tape can be bad for your mantid but it's useful if they've fallen during a molt or can't hang upside down due to a previous mismolt. Then it's kind of needed. I've been able to save a couple mantids using tape to hold them up by their shed legs once they'd fallen, or because they couldn't hang upside down due to a previous mismolt.


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## Vespertino (Jun 21, 2015)

I'm currently nursing a mismolted L4 carolina. It seemed to have fallen in the middle of molting, the front arms are crooked. It can move and climb- awkwardly- but it can't grasp food to it's mouth and the hind legs seem paralyzed and malformed (the molt was stuck to one of the hind legs). It can hang upside down using it's middle and front legs. I have a good idea of what to do, but I'm having trouble getting the mantis to eat. It seems more interested in climbing onto my hand (squirrely, froggy little thing!) than taking the bugs I try to hold to it's mouth using a tweezer. She might take a few bites but seems to get bored and walks off. It will take a little bit of honey, but overall doesn't seem to have much appetite. I'm trying decapitated superworms and calciworms. Luckily the mantis doesn't seem lethargic, but I'm worried at how little I'm able to get it to eat. Also I'm not sure how much time I have to the next molt, at least two weeks to go, but unless I can get it to eat more it's going to be a long two weeks.

Any tips on feeding when they don't seem to wanna eat?


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## LAME (Jun 21, 2015)

Give it a little time, it just may not be interested in meals at the moment. Is it incredibly skinny? (flat abdominal.) or is it in healthy shape?

Best advice I can offer is keep it hydrated.


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## Vespertino (Jun 21, 2015)

Thanks for the advice. It's not incredibly skinny, but the abdomen is starting to flatten a little. Whenever I take the mantis out of the enclosure it seems active despite being crippled. It did eat a little today, but not nearly as much as the L4 siblings that polish off half a small mealworm. I gave it some water this morning, I'll give it a little more and see if it drinks.


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## MantidBro (Jun 21, 2015)

Vespertino said:


> Thanks for the advice. It's not incredibly skinny, but the abdomen is starting to flatten a little. Whenever I take the mantis out of the enclosure it seems active despite being crippled. It did eat a little today, but not nearly as much as the L4 siblings that polish off half a small mealworm. I gave it some water this morning, I'll give it a little more and see if it drinks.


Does the food fall from the mouth? you may have to hold the food still for the mantid. But if she is just hyper, soon she will calm down, she will get hungry eventually.


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## Vespertino (Jun 21, 2015)

Yes, the food falls from it's mouth because her forearms are skewed from the bad molt. I've held the worms up to the mouth with tweezers so it can eat, holding the food up since she can't grasp it, and the longest she's eaten is about 3 minutes and then gets bored and wanders off (usually onto the hand that holds the tweezers). I've been persistent and will keep bringing the food to it's mouth and it might take a couple bites, then does the same wandering off thing... She really seems to like climbing onto my hand, dunno why. Maybe she thinks the tweezers offering food and the hand that holds it is "mommy".


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## MantidBro (Jun 21, 2015)

Vespertino said:


> Yes, the food falls from it's mouth because her forearms are skewed from the bad molt. I've held the worms up to the mouth with tweezers so it can eat, holding the food up since she can't grasp it, and the longest she's eaten is about 3 minutes and then gets bored and wanders off (usually onto the hand that holds the tweezers). I've been persistent and will keep bringing the food to it's mouth and it might take a couple bites, then does the same wandering off thing... She really seems to like climbing onto my hand, dunno why. Maybe she thinks the tweezers offering food and the hand that holds it is "mommy".


Oh okay, so you hold it still for her, thats good! I guess she just stops feeling hungry. Id say, hand feed her multiple times a day. if she only get a little each time, its better if she gets a little multiple times rather than a little just once. My advice would be, feed her just the guts. She can get a good grip on the guts even without help because theyre soft and sticky. Haha for sure youre her mommy


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## LAME (Jun 21, 2015)

Vespertino said:


> Yes, the food falls from it's mouth because her forearms are skewed from the bad molt. I've held the worms up to the mouth with tweezers so it can eat, holding the food up since she can't grasp it, and the longest she's eaten is about 3 minutes and then gets bored and wanders off (usually onto the hand that holds the tweezers). I've been persistent and will keep bringing the food to it's mouth and it might take a couple bites, then does the same wandering off thing... She really seems to like climbing onto my hand, dunno why. Maybe she thinks the tweezers offering food and the hand that holds it is "mommy".


There used to a thread where a member had used a thumbtack as a feeder device. It may still be on here somewhere. I'd consider using that method if you do get tired of holding it up for her.


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## Vespertino (Jun 21, 2015)

Thanks for the advice! I'll give her another feeding in a bit, I know I have some thumbtacks around somewhere. I'm hoping she stays energetic until the 5th molt in a couple of weeks. I'm considering using the tape method to help her molt when it's time since she can't use her hind legs at all right now.


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## birdiefu (Jun 23, 2015)

I have an S. viridis female (Mrs. Pickles) I just got 2 days ago who molted in transit (think is now L4, but not really sure - she is my first mantid other than a wild M. religiosa I gave some honey to). She also has both rear legs curved up/unusable and a bit of a thorax bend, but unlike your girly she seems to be able to use both raptorials. As she likes to use one to support herself, she will only hold hand-fed food with one at a time, however. She took beheaded mealworm toothpaste tubes well, and will be trying decapitated houseflies tomorrow.

I have spent the days since I got her going through about 20 pages of the health section here on mismolts on care and in anticipation of her next, and just wanted to pipe up about that thread with the thumbtack. Not sure if it was the same thread or two separate ones, but one method was a thumbtack with the bottom pressed in clay as a base (pretty sure silly putty is nontoxic), the other with a toothpick hotglued to a small plastic disc as a base.

There was another thread with a mantis with frozen joints on her raptorials that would take fruitflies and tilt her head back as she munched to keep it in place, lol.

Good luck with your carolina!


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## Vespertino (Jun 23, 2015)

The soft guts + thumbtack seemed to help, hubs was cringing as I took an xacto blade to a worm and disemboweled it and piled that thumbtack high. I'm just wondering if her scampering around is normal or if she might be nervously seeking a safe place to retreat to whenever I remove her from the enclosure for feeding. She either makes a bee line for my hand or the closest object (usually the honey jar). She just wont stay still unless she's in her enclosure but I can't hand feed her in there. Has anyone noted any odd behaviors in mantids after a bad molt?


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## Vespertino (Jun 23, 2015)

birdiefu said:


> I have an S. viridis female (Mrs. Pickles) I just got 2 days ago who molted in transit (think is now L4, but not really sure - she is my first mantid other than a wild M. religiosa I gave some honey to). She also has both rear legs curved up/unusable and a bit of a thorax bend, but unlike your girly she seems to be able to use both raptorials. As she likes to use one to support herself, she will only hold hand-fed food with one at a time, however. She took beheaded mealworm toothpaste tubes well, and will be trying decapitated houseflies tomorrow.
> 
> I have spent the days since I got her going through about 20 pages of the health section here on mismolts on care and in anticipation of her next, and just wanted to pipe up about that thread with the thumbtack. Not sure if it was the same thread or two separate ones, but one method was a thumbtack with the bottom pressed in clay as a base (pretty sure silly putty is nontoxic), the other with a toothpick hotglued to a small plastic disc as a base.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about Mrs. Pickles molting in transit. Sounds like she's eating well. What instar is she at? I'm guessing we're both counting the days to the next molt, hoping it helps right our poor babies bodies into alignment once again. I like the term "mealworm toothpaste tubes", I chuckled when I read it- that's very much how I processed the worm for feeding. Sliced the head off, and squished the flesh and guts out from the bottom of the tail through the top where it's head used to be.


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## birdiefu (Jun 23, 2015)

Vespertino said:


> Sorry to hear about Mrs. Pickles molting in transit. Sounds like she's eating well. What instar is she at? I'm guessing we're both counting the days to the next molt, hoping it helps right our poor babies bodies into alignment once again. I like the term "mealworm toothpaste tubes", I chuckled when I read it- that's very much how I processed the worm for feeding. Sliced the head off, and squished the flesh and guts out from the bottom of the tail through the top where it's head used to be.


Hehe, yes it is interesting imagery! I am not exactly sure what instar Mrs. Pickles is - my googling has not led me to anywhere that gives a good guide to this, but I am only guessing at L4. I'm trying to keep her temp a little higher and keep her nice and fed to hopefully hasten the time to her next molt. I will be modifying her enclosure with easy-to-hang on items (hopefully!), and am ready to hold/tape her if necessary.

Some pics if it can help identify her age? Yes, she is still Mrs. Pickles even though not green  I should probably start my own thread, don't mean to hijack or anything!

Eating honey from fingernail - bad focus but can get scale of size and sorta see hindlegs up:







She actually *can* hang and eat - using two middle legs and one raptorial, holding mealworm with the other:






But she seems more stable/happier munching in my hand or on something sturdy, can see how she props up with other raptorial:






ETA: Congrats on the thumbtack working! I have noticed Mrs. Pickles seems a little edgy/flightly for a female (from what I can tell and with little experience) - She gets really nervous with new environments and it took a *ton* of coaxing to get her on that towel to eat. She would *not* go on it before she had food, and even by coaxing with my other hand, she would only scamper/drag to grab onto another one of my fingers like it was a lifesaver, lol. First time to try feeding her there, she only took a few bites and then when I moved to stand up she freaked, dropped her worm, and ran off. She settled down in my hand, then I put her in her enclosure and she took the worm again there. Second feeding she was okay enough with the towel to finish her meal. I would have her finish her meal in my hand if necessary, but it does take a while...


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## Vespertino (Jun 23, 2015)

Awwww poor Mrs.Pickles and those little legs. I'm not an expert but she's about the same size as my L4 carolinas, so L4 would be my guess as well. Thanks for sharing those pics, you're taking such good care of her, she was really chowing down on that worm! Sounds like it was a bit of an adventure getting her to eat. It sounds like they have some similar behavior with being squirmy and flighty out in the "open" for feeding time. She wasn't like this before the bad molt, so I'm almost wondering if they behave as if they have an injury and try to scurry away to hide in a "safe place" to ride things out until they recover. Today the thumbtack didn't work because I couldn't coax her towards it, she was just wholly uncooperative with staying put on the paper plate with the breakfast-bug-buffet-tumb-tack this morning. She clung to my hand this time, so I hand fed her the bug guts on the end of a bamboo skewer. Once again I'm really alarmed at how little she ate this morning, it didn't take much before she lost interest and started evading the bamboo stick. I'm going to stop by the store on the way home and get some baby food and see if she'd prefer it over bugs.


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## Sticky (Jun 23, 2015)

Your mantis may decide to cut off the bad legs herself in the hopes they will regrow.

This is my little girl I had that did just that. It left her unable to hang so when she was close to molting I stuck her to some tape. That did not work out as she struggled and got more stuck. N trying to help her one leg ended up being broken.

Things may not end up that way for you.


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## birdiefu (Jun 23, 2015)

Fingers crossed that the baby food is easier for your carolina to get down! Can she clean her raptorials? I'm thinking maybe even if she is losing interest, if you dab a little on her arms she will get more in as she cleans herself. Glad to hear she is spry and has energy though! As I never knew mine before this mismolt, I can't say if she was as flighty as now, but it would seem logical that they may change behavior to be more defensive/scaredy to avoid predators if they feel their body not working quite right.

You are doing a great job trying to help her out, I wish I was more experienced with these sweet little guys so I could give more advice!


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## Sticky (Jun 24, 2015)

How is she today?


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## Vespertino (Jun 24, 2015)

Hi guys!

Sticky: it looks like my little mantid did shorten her legs by chewing off some of the stuck exoskeleton that was adding an unnatural amount of length to one of the legs, even after I helped remove some of what was stuck. I'll be on the lookout as she gets closer to molting to see if she whittles them down any further.

She's doing much better now! But it's entirely because I gave up on the tumbtack and open-area feeding. I went with my hunch that she was trying to flee to a place she considered safe whenever I removed her from the enclosure to help with feeding. Instead of listening to her appetite, she was getting worked up trying to flee. Instead I let her perch on my hand (where she seemed to flee to 50% of the time) and just hand-fed her from there and she totally pigged out on whatever I squished on the end of the bamboo skewer and dangled in front of her nose. She was so much more cooperative with the last two feedings as long as I let her stay on my hand, and at the last feeding she was able to grab onto some worm exoskeleton (after she ate the guts I picked out for her) with one of her raptorial arms and bring it to her mouth. This is the first time she was able to do this since the bad molt last weekend.

So now I'm relieved and I know she'll make it to her next molt. I just need to learn how to read the signs so I know when to tape her hind legs since she can't hang by them. She can hang using her middle legs, but I don't know if that's ideal for molting.

Thanks for all the advice and support, I wouldn't have been prepared for this if it wasn't for the wisdom and advice in this thread on how to take care of my six-legged-friend.


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## MantidBro (Jun 24, 2015)

Vespertino said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> Sticky: it looks like my little mantid did shorten her legs by chewing off some of the stuck exoskeleton that was adding an unnatural amount of length to one of the legs, even after I helped remove some of what was stuck. I'll be on the lookout as she gets closer to molting to see if she whittles them down any further.
> 
> ...


Thats great that shes eating now and can grab on with her claw herself!! congrats!! i made a video for mismolted mantids next molt, maybe itll help. Ive used this method myself and have saved their lives!


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## Vespertino (Jun 24, 2015)

Thanks Mantidbro,

That gives more more clues on what to look for for the upcoming molt.  Does the l4-l5 molt take 2 weeks or a bit longer?


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## MantidBro (Jun 24, 2015)

Vespertino said:


> Thanks Mantidbro,
> 
> That gives more more clues on what to look for for the upcoming molt.  Does the l4-l5 molt take 2 weeks or a bit longer?


you're welcome, and it depends on the species, but it is usually around 2-3 weeks on average id say.


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## birdiefu (Jun 25, 2015)

Glad to hear that she is eating *and* able to hold on to her food a bit! Mrs. Pickles got to feast on a blue bottle fly yesterday, she gobbled it up waaaay faster than her mealworms. Just a trip in the fridge to slow down, decapitation, then skewer and I barely needed to put guts to her mouth before she snatched it  Now that I have pupa emerging at a good rate, I will probably stick with these over mealworms (which I went out in a thunderstorm to get when I had no flies, oh the things we do!).

MantidBro - That vid above is stellar and helps prepare us for how to help during the next molt...just in case. Thanks for making it!

Vespertino - Are you monitoring temp in your carolina's enclosure? I am trying to keep mine on the higher side for her species, in the hopes that that and keeping her on the fatter side will make the next molt come sooner.


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## MantidBro (Jun 25, 2015)

birdiefu said:


> Glad to hear that she is eating *and* able to hold on to her food a bit! Mrs. Pickles got to feast on a blue bottle fly yesterday, she gobbled it up waaaay faster than her mealworms. Just a trip in the fridge to slow down, decapitation, then skewer and I barely needed to put guts to her mouth before she snatched it  Now that I have pupa emerging at a good rate, I will probably stick with these over mealworms (which I went out in a thunderstorm to get when I had no flies, oh the things we do!).
> 
> MantidBro - That vid above is stellar and helps prepare us for how to help during the next molt...just in case. Thanks for making it!
> 
> Vespertino - Are you monitoring temp in your carolina's enclosure? I am trying to keep mine on the higher side for her species, in the hopes that that and keeping her on the fatter side will make the next molt come sooner.


Id stick with flies too, its just that i have a hard time keeping them going! its easier for me to breed mealies. But heck, if flies were as easy, id definitely be using those... Forever!! lol

Youre welcome for the vid!

Heat definitely speeds up the process!!


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## Vespertino (Jul 5, 2015)

Well, sad news. I wasn't able to read all the signs well enough, she molted in the middle of the night and as would be expected fell in the process. This time she was coiled in a tight circle on the floor of the deli cup when I found her, and she's already hardened in that position so she was beyond saving. The good news is that she managed to get one of her hind legs back, but from the looks of it she had trouble freeing her front body and arms during the molt. She was still alive, struggling, and I removed as much of the stuck molt skin as I could but it was clear she was so terribly deformed this time there was no chance she could molt out of it.

I put her in the freezer and gave her decent burial in my basil patch of the garden.

I have another that mis-molted last week, it also had it's forearms and head stuck (I managed to free her arms but her prothotax was deformed and curved) so her back/raptors are all crooked but I'm able to feed her by hand. Let's hope I can save that one, it has it's hind legs in order so she can hang just fine, it's just the front half that's a problem.

Birdie, any updates on Ms. Pickles? How is she doing?


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## birdiefu (Jul 5, 2015)

Oh no, I'm so sorry that she didn't make it  She was lucky to have someone to care and handfeed her since the last molt, and end her suffering quickly when it became apparent there was no hope. RIP little carolina girl, may she forever catch bugs and enjoy the sunshine in your basil!

Since your second can climb and hang well, her chances should be very high for fixing her issues with the next molt, wishing you tons of luck  

Mrs. Pickles hasn't molted yet, but I am sooo nervous for when she does! Every morning I peek in, ready to find the worst. About a week ago her color seemed to change a bit, with what looks like some green coming in between the abdominal segments, and she looked a little "wrinkled" on the rest of her abdominal exoskeleton, so I was all excited and on standby. But other than that, she didn't slow down and no other molting signs. She is pretty big (I think she may actually be an L5 rather than L4 as I earlier thought), and afraid that the two legs won't be enough to hold her weight with the next molt. It's also hard to say how her appetite is, as if I don't get her fly guts to touch her mouth ASAP, she gets annoyed and bats it away, but once guts hit ground zero, it's munching time - don't know if guts-to-mouth trigger overrides the natural reduction in feeding close to molting. I have generally slowed down my feeding frequency just to be on the safe side, and keeping her full but not too fat.

Finger's crossed for your newest mis-molt!


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## Mantis Man13 (Jul 6, 2015)

Hope you succeed in keeping your mantis alive and well!


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## MantidBro (Jul 6, 2015)

Vespertino said:


> Well, sad news. I wasn't able to read all the signs well enough, she molted in the middle of the night and as would be expected fell in the process. This time she was coiled in a tight circle on the floor of the deli cup when I found her, and she's already hardened in that position so she was beyond saving. The good news is that she managed to get one of her hind legs back, but from the looks of it she had trouble freeing her front body and arms during the molt. She was still alive, struggling, and I removed as much of the stuck molt skin as I could but it was clear she was so terribly deformed this time there was no chance she could molt out of it.
> 
> I put her in the freezer and gave her decent burial in my basil patch of the garden.
> 
> ...


Aw man im sorry about that! Good luck with the other mantid


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## birdiefu (Jul 7, 2015)

Well, Mrs. Pickles molted last night. I woke up 15 min late (darn snooze button!), and when I checked on her I realized she was hanging on her climbing wall, which she hardly ever does. Peeked closer and saw her molted skin! First a happy dance as she at least had not fallen, and her abdomen and head/raptorials looked great. Then I realized she only had one leg on one side, hrm ok. Then I realized the other hind leg still was still in molted skin from the distal tibia on. Trying to save it, I tried to gently tease it off, but it was dried - sprayed water, held the foot end of the molt but dropped it and her leg bent  . Grabbed the shed again and tried to hold it up and tease it off her leg, but I think the bend I did earlier may have negatively affected her poor fresh molted skin, and off popped the 2nd leg... nline2long: 

I am SO glad she managed to hang the whole time, but I think since her rear legs were not attached to anything, as she came out the skin hung on like trying to kick off a wet sock. It might be best that she is legless at this point, hopefully she can regrow those legs (she's at L5/L6 now) and since there won't be a long dangly molted legs to escape from it might actually go 100% right next time! So back to handfeeding until *another* molt and praying no falling again.

Pic of her tangly legs before (was so sad to see her try to walk and they would hook around each other...maybe she will be more agile now!)







Pic when I saw her this morning. I had hot glued a climbing wall to help her get around easier up to a molting disk (pool noodle slice) or stick with pantyhose/yarn around, hoping those would help her stick with only two legs to molt.






Pic later on today, showing stumps (also panyhose horizontal stick near climbing wall)


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## Vespertino (Jul 27, 2015)

How is Ms. Pickles doing? Is she almost ready for another molt and maybe get her legs back?

Sadly my second mismolt isn't going so well, she either can't or won't eat (in hindsight I think her mouth may have been damaged from the mismolt), and she's been shrinking. This evening she threw up the honey and water I fed her. I'm wondering if the freezer is going to be the best option.


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## Vespertino (Jul 30, 2015)

Well my second mis-molted mantis has now passed, she couldn't hold herself up and seemed to be in rapid decline over the past couple days (vomiting, gravitating to the bottom of the enclosure, weak, refusing liquids, dull eyes), so I decided to put her in the freezer. Poor girl


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## birdiefu (Jul 31, 2015)

Oh no, so sorry about your second mantis  It sure hurts to see them go after putting so much care in for them. I hear that when their mouthparts are affect by a mismolt, it can be quite difficult. RIP poor girl!

Mrs. Pickles STILL has not molted, and it's been about 3 1/2 weeks since her last. Every night I tuck her in thinking she will molt and expecting the worst, and so far every morning it's "you didn't molt yet!?" However, she finally is a pickle! A few days after her last molt she gradually became greener (at first my son and I thought we were imagning it), but she is a gorgeous shade of green now. I will have to put up pics of my son holding her at some point. She also has been taking her flies much faster after this past molt, with much less coaxing needed. I'm just worried that since she is so much larger/heavier that her two legs may not be enough for this coming molt....

And I will be away for Saturday night, I have a feeling that will be the day she chooses to molt and I won't be there to help! But I will check in when she does, for better or worse.

Hope any other mantids you have are doing great and no more mismolts in the near future!


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## Vespertino (Jul 31, 2015)

I'd love to see updated pictures of Ms. Pickles, I'm a fan of the classic green. It's a relief when they eat, isn't it? It almost seems a good appetite is a sign of happiness.


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## birdiefu (Aug 3, 2015)

Well, she did *not* molt while I was away Sat night, thank goodness! Cause she molted last night and needed a bit of assistance. She is in one piece (whew), I will post more of an update with pics later today, I just wanted to add in the pic of my son with her over a week ago with no hindlegs and green (though a bit washed out in this pic), which we took for posterity's sake in case she didn't make her next molt.


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## birdiefu (Aug 4, 2015)

Yesterday was my B-day, so I stayed up pretty late. Two Ghosts molted that day, and right before midnight my son calls me in this sorta-quite voice to come over to Mrs. Pickles. She was mid-molt, at the point where all legs are out and she is hanging by her abdomen. My first thought was "she didn't fall yet!" Then "oh no...she is in the middle with no wall nearby...". She was molting from her horizontal panty-hosed stick, but not near the mesh wall, smack dab in the middle. I was of course nervous of her molted exoskeleton that was only attached by two legs, and that it might fall if she tried to grab onto that.

I noticed she *did* have some shorty hind legs (yay!) that were fully free, but were midget legs. Eventually, she started wiggling her legs, the midget legs trying to grab up on the molted skin, but she didn't seem to control them well. Then she was kicking around and her molt was shaking dangerously and I feared she would fall. I looked around for anything sorta sturdy yet that she could cling to, and grabbed a hat I had firmly knitted for my daughter (lol), and held that right next to where she was hanging. She grabbed it as soon as it was near, and settled down again, abdomen still attached.

So, I spent about 15 minutes holding a knit hat as still as possible with her holding it with midlegs. Finally her abdomen came free and she held on with raptorials also, and I taped the hat very securely to the enclosure and let her stay there and dry overnight, satisfied she made it through her molt in one piece!

I was not sure about the status of her hind legs. While I was happy she grew some, I am a bit afraid that if she can't stick with them that they might again get stuck in the molt like the last time. Today I took the hat out (she was on it all night, most of the day) to examine her legs/feet. At first, she had them up in the air, but eventually she tried to put them down. It seems like they are shaped normally, complete with feet just much smaller. I think she may not be used to having hind legs that actually *work* after all this time, and seemed to get better at synchronizing them. Hopefully after a few days she will get the hang of them and she can catch prey/hang by all four walking legs.

So...Mrs. Pickles is now a subadult - she has wingbuds! I didn't realize she was this far along, and it means only one more stressful molt to make it through. Best case her midget legs will become full legs and she will be a perfect adult specimen. But even if she has issues and becomes the legless wonder again I will be super happy. We have hand fed her as long as we had her, so doing so for the rest of her adult life will be just fine. Just as long as there is no fall  

Bunch of pictures of molting and the next day:

Abdomen still attached, on the hat with only midlegs, then abdomen out (can see wingbuds, but I didn't notice at this point), still not using hindlegs









Her molted exoskeleton on the pantyhose-stick. I think this actually helped her hold on better as she could grip on the sides rather than hang from straight above.






Her midget hindlegs held up and all discombobulated (but shaped normally), then she starts to test them out









Using hindlegs a little more, getting feet to touch and push off a bit. Then last pic more confident with hindlegs, although still steps on own abdomen at times.









My son was so sad when she had lost her legs during the last molt. I don't think he really believed me that they could grow back until he actually saw it!


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## Deathlok (Aug 4, 2015)

Best of luck to Mrs. Pickles, she's a beautiful mantis. Fingers crossed she gets full legs when she molts to adult


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## Vespertino (Aug 4, 2015)

Birdie, Ms. Pickles is beautiful!!!! I love that mint color. Sounds like it was an adventure and I'm so glad you were there to help her with her molt, perfect timing! Those little legs look really cute, almost froggy like in a way, and I'm sure they will get longer with her final molt. Grats on the successful molt! It's so nice to hear good news


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## birdiefu (Aug 7, 2015)

Thanks, Deathlok and Vespertino! I'm very happy that she has had a successful mismolt journey so far, if anything my son and I have learned a lot more about mantid care from her


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## birdiefu (Aug 4, 2016)

I wanted to pop back in here even though this thread is old, to give an update on Mrs. Pickles and hopefully give some hope to those who have had to struggle with the heartache and uncertainty of nursing mismolted mantids. Mrs. Pickles is a miracle mantis to my family, not only because she struggled through so much pain as a nymph to became a beautiful, perfect adult, but that she still is hanging in there with us even though she is approximately 15 months old right now!

She molted to adult 8/31/15, relatively uneventful as she learned quite well how to make her stublegs stick, and was the only molt I did not have to assist. But like her previous ones, I was there to witness. I have pics of her wings slowly filling out, which I hope to post in the future, but in the meantime...

Mrs. Pickles says HI!






Now, since Mrs. Pickles was originally a present for my son (though she became a huge family affair), he has always held her close to his heart. I know I posted a photo earlier of him with Mrs. Pickles before her 2-legged molt in case she never made it through, so I will present more photos of him so happy with his favorite pickle (or, as he says, the smartest pickle in the jar....when she puzzles out how to catch her bugs you can just see the wheels turning!)

Thanksgiving 2015 (cause she is a part of what we are thankful for!):






Yesterday (8/3/16):






One of the greatest things about her having all of her legs functions (last walking legs are needed for support when catching prey), she was finally able to eat all on her own! So proud of her, and I can tell she enjoys stalking and catching . As much as I miss the bonding time with handfeeding, it did get tiresome here or there. Her and her roach cup, though she also catches roaches that are free/hiding in her enclosure:






And one last photo to give a better idea of how her hindlegs have grown since her stubby subadult ones. They *might* not still be exactly normal full length, but they are perfectly functional and she is able to move/act like any other of my "normal" mantids . I have some vid I might eventaully post of her moving around (and being soooo cute!) despite her age/slowness now.






I know I read a post on here where someone had an S. viridis at 17 months and felt like she still had a few months left in her. Here is to Mrs. Pickles hopefully setting a record and making it even longer despite her hard times. She also laid at least 5 ooths (the last was a looong time ago, I don't think she may produce anymore), but as we had no male for her, no little pickles to carry on her legacy. But I don't think any other pickle could replace her. Thanks again to everyone on here who helped me!


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## CosbyArt (Aug 17, 2016)

Glad to see Mrs. Pickles did so well.  15 months is amazing, hopefully she has several more months left.





Are you planning on getting another mantid when the time comes? If nothing else use it as a excuse to try a new species. It is a negative trait of the hobby to be sure, the short lifespan, I've found it easier to get another one. Each nymph tends to have their own personalities and traits (even in the same species), and is what keeps me going.


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