# Do stagmomantis ooths really need to diapause???



## agent A (Nov 30, 2012)

Ik this is a very much debated topic so i dont want any scrutiny for asking this

But is it really all that necessary to diapause stagmomantis ooths?? Ive been patiently waiting almost 4 months for 2 stagmomantis californica ooths to hatch and they r incubating at 90 degrees and high humidity from twice daily misting

Ive heard from paul that californicas dont need diapause (my last diapaused ooth hatched 5 months late and 85% got stuck in the ooth)

Yen said limbatas dont need to diapause

So i am wondering, do stagmos really need to diapause? Stagmomantis carolina lives all throughout the US and while in many of its areas it gets cold temps, in the southern extents of the range like florida and texas, how cold is it really in winter? Amd stagmo limbo and cali are found as southernly as arizona and mexico, i doubt they need a diapause there??

And there r always stories of more than 1 stagmo generation a year down south, implying ooths had to hatch the next gen without diapause

Its not like the ooths know wat generation they r from right? So is it truely necessary to diapause stagmo ooths? I think its too late for these cali ooths to diapause but is diapause really worth it? Id like to hear varying viewpoints on the subject, especially science based ones

Thanx


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## lancaster1313 (Nov 30, 2012)

I don't do anything but incubate _Stagmomantis carolina _oothecae at room temperature. No problems with hatching over here.


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## Rick (Dec 1, 2012)

I never gave one to S. carolina.


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## Termite48 (Dec 1, 2012)

Biology major logic not based on clinical data: if one gives a diapause to an ooth after it has been developing eggs, it will not be a good thing for the development. This came up in another thread a few days ago about what to do to hold off the hatching when one has more than one oothecae. Geographically there is so much mixing of the species from colder states to warmer states, that Genera, like Stagmomantis and specifically californica and limbata which are found in both North and South, it makes no sense to always practice the diapause routine as they in nature do not experience it across the board. If you have a wild caught ooth and it is from a cold state like Michigan, for example, the ooth is freshly laid, then by all means give it a diapause as it would have experienced in nature.


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## frogparty (Dec 1, 2012)

Ive got a bunch of S. californica ooths that I just harvested incubating at approx 77 degrees F and nicely humid. Well see how long it takes them to hatch. Despite cold temps, Im still finding some large LARGE females in my folks garage or on screen doors in the evening


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## agent A (Dec 1, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Ive got a bunch of S. californica ooths that I just harvested incubating at approx 77 degrees F and nicely humid. Well see how long it takes them to hatch. Despite cold temps, Im still finding some large LARGE females in my folks garage or on screen doors in the evening


I would like pics to be sure they r not limbata, and if they r californica would u be willing to sell me a few?


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## garin33 (Dec 1, 2012)

agent A said:


> Ik this is a very much debated topic so i dont want any scrutiny for asking this
> 
> But is it really all that necessary to diapause stagmomantis ooths?? Ive been patiently waiting almost 4 months for 2 stagmomantis californica ooths to hatch and they r incubating at 90 degrees and high humidity from twice daily misting
> 
> ...


Wow, 4 months. Is that normal for S. Carolina? I just got my first S. Carolina ooth and didn't realize that it would take so long. I would have thought it was dud by then. Is it similar for Limbata?


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## agent A (Dec 1, 2012)

garin33 said:


> Wow, 4 months. Is that normal for S. Carolina? I just got my first S. Carolina ooth and didn't realize that it would take so long. I would have thought it was dud by then. Is it similar for Limbata?


These r californicas and ive seen them take 10 months with diapause so id say 5 months without it is normal

Limbata take 3 months to hatch


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## garin33 (Dec 1, 2012)

agent A said:


> These r californicas and ive seen them take 10 months with diapause so id say 5 months without it is normal
> 
> Limbata take 3 months to hatch


Sorry, Californicas. When you get old, your eyes don't see things quite as well. You won't have to worry about that for another 30 years or so.

5 months, a long time, you need alot of patience. How long are Carolinas?


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## frogparty (Dec 1, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Ive got a bunch of S. californica ooths that I just harvested incubating at approx 77 degrees F and nicely humid. Well see how long it takes them to hatch. Despite cold temps, Im still finding some large LARGE females in my folks garage or on screen doors in the evening





agent A said:


> I would like pics to be sure they r not limbata, and if they r californica would u be willing to sell me a few?


Yeah I can snap some pics and sell you an ooth


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## agent A (Dec 1, 2012)

garin33 said:


> Sorry, Californicas. When you get old, your eyes don't see things quite as well. You won't have to worry about that for another 30 years or so.
> 
> 5 months, a long time, you need alot of patience. How long are Carolinas?


I dont know abt carolinas ive never kept them before



frogparty said:


> Yeah I can snap some pics and sell you an ooth


Please take pics of females and ooths because californicas r far from large and if possible snap pics of the hindwings


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## frogparty (Dec 1, 2012)

agent A said:


> I dont know abt carolinas ive never kept them before
> 
> Please take pics of females and ooths because californicas r far from large and if possible snap pics of the hindwings


No pics of females. The ooths are wild collected and were laid outside on the stucco of thier house, or on Lonicera vines. The hind wings on the females were quite dark, Ill try to remember to get pics of the ooths tonight


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## agent A (Dec 1, 2012)

frogparty said:


> No pics of females. The ooths are wild collected and were laid outside on the stucco of thier house, or on Lonicera vines. The hind wings on the females were quite dark, Ill try to remember to get pics of the ooths tonight


Any dark bands atop the abdomen under the wings??


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## frogparty (Dec 1, 2012)

Not that I remember...I usually see them from the underside on their screen doors LOL


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## agent A (Dec 1, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Not that I remember...I usually see them from the underside on their screen doors LOL


Lol ok well take pics of the ooths so ik which species u have and u might have cali and limbata...


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## frogparty (Dec 1, 2012)

Theres limbata in the general area of their house, but these ooths are very oval and not rounded at all, much more like californica ooths instead of limbata (at least from pics Ive seen ) Ooths are greyish brown with distinct white "zipper" and I think the largest MIGHT be 4cm in length (more like 2.5-3cm avg)


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## agent A (Dec 1, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Theres limbata in the general area of their house, but these ooths are very oval and not rounded at all, much more like californica ooths instead of limbata (at least from pics Ive seen ) Ooths are greyish brown with distinct white "zipper" and I think the largest MIGHT be 4cm in length (more like 2.5-3cm avg)


Size sounds cali but idk abt color

Check out stagmomantis consolidated i put pics of both species ooths there for reference


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## MantidLord (Dec 1, 2012)

I've never heard stagmomantis needs diapause. In fact, I figured they were in the same situation as most mantids in North America (T. sinensis, I. oratoria, Litaneutria, and maybe some more) in that the cold merely prevents them from hatching too early and dying off with no food. The cold's not a requirement, but a tool to help them thrive as a species. Taken in a captive, environment, there might not be anything holding them back from hatching.


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## Ranitomeya (Dec 1, 2012)

Diapause might not always be necessary and it certainly would not make sense in a situation where the warmer seasons are long enough that an ootheca has to sit for longer than it can without significant losses to experience a change from warmer weather to cooler weather and back. Egg development is affected by the temperature as we have all observed that cooler temperatures mean later hatch dates, so it is more likely that the diapause we see is a result of cold temperatures slowing down development and not a result of a required biological process. Some species with very slow hatch times might simply have evolved a longer egg stage that can be extended further by cold temperatures.

On the other hand, it is also possible that diapause in mantids is not managed solely by the environmental queues the ootheca experiences and that the discrepency in hatch times is also the result of diapause initiated prior to egg-laying by the environmental queues experienced by the egg-laying female. Mantids kept in captivity cannot be a very good indicator of this as we tend to keep them at more optimal food and temperature levels and lighting is just all over the place. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference in the hatch times for oothecae of the same species between ones obtained from captive bred mantids and ones obained from wild mantids near the end of the season.


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## agent A (Dec 1, 2012)

Ranitomeya said:


> Diapause might not always be necessary and it certainly would not make sense in a situation where the warmer seasons are long enough that an ootheca has to sit for longer than it can without significant losses to experience a change from warmer weather to cooler weather and back. Egg development is affected by the temperature as we have all observed that cooler temperatures mean later hatch dates, so it is more likely that the diapause we see is a result of cold temperatures slowing down development and not a result of a required biological process. Some species with very slow hatch times might simply have evolved a longer egg stage that can be extended further by cold temperatures.
> 
> On the other hand, it is also possible that diapause in mantids is not managed solely by the environmental queues the ootheca experiences and that the discrepency in hatch times is also the result of diapause initiated prior to egg-laying by the environmental queues experienced by the egg-laying female. Mantids kept in captivity cannot be a very good indicator of this as we tend to keep them at more optimal food and temperature levels and lighting is just all over the place. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference in the hatch times for oothecae of the same species between ones obtained from captive bred mantids and ones obained from wild mantids near the end of the season.


That is a thought

So lets assume my cali female who was captive her whole life and went to rick at the end of august was exposed to NC climate

Now in CT in august the temps r in the 80s and daylight hours r about 14 hours

I bet they were a bit greater in NC

So basically, i dont think my cali girl had any reason to assume winter was coming

So assuming her ooths r fertile, i may see some nymphs very soon


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## MantidLord (Dec 1, 2012)

agent A said:


> That is a thought
> 
> So lets assume my cali female who was captive her whole life and went to rick at the end of august was exposed to NC climate
> 
> ...


That's a lot of assumption...and it brings a sort of nature vs nurture aspect to it. How did she adapt to living in your CT home, despite being naturally adapted to living in California?

I think the argument isn't as complex as we're making it. There are observations of wild T. sinensis ooths hatching early December because of a late frost, and the nymphs were found either stuck to the ooth frozen or dead on the ground. There were no captive conditions, simply a slight temperature change. Naturally, not all of the T. sinensis ooths in the area hatched, and those that were laid a little bit later weren't ready to hatch and when the winter finally came, they simply didn't hatch. Weather has been a huge dictator in T. sinensis. In some areas females lay only one ooth, in others they can lay two. I think the same would hold true for Stagmomantis.


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## agent A (Dec 1, 2012)

MantidLord said:


> That's a lot of assumption...and it brings a sort of nature vs nurture aspect to it. How did she adapt to living in your CT home, despite being naturally adapted to living in California?
> 
> I think the argument isn't as complex as we're making it. There are observations of wild T. sinensis ooths hatching early December because of a late frost, and the nymphs were found either stuck to the ooth frozen or dead on the ground. There were no captive conditions, simply a slight temperature change. Naturally, not all of the T. sinensis ooths in the area hatched, and those that were laid a little bit later weren't ready to hatch and when the winter finally came, they simply didn't hatch. Weather has been a huge dictator in T. sinensis. In some areas females lay only one ooth, in others they can lay two. I think the same would hold true for Stagmomantis.


She spent L1/2 in texas with yen

Her mother was from arizona

She grew under a heatlamp until subadult

She went to hertarems house in pasadena california for 2 weeks

Then spent a few weeks outside before goin to ricks, mating with your male, laying 2 ooths and dying

U mentioned ooths might diapause if the female laying it thinks winter was approaching

I dont think my cali female had any sense of winter coming around

My feeling is the ooths figure out for themselves whether or not to diapause

Though diapause may reassure nymphs the winter is over it has certainly been shown that most species dont need diapause to hatch

My next question

Can ooth sense how long they have diapaused for? Could someone put an ooth in the fridge for a day snd trick an ooth into thinking a whole winter went by??


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## MantidLord (Dec 2, 2012)

agent A said:


> U mentioned ooths might diapause if the female laying it thinks winter was approaching


I did? I don't feel like going back and reading, but if I did say that, I'm misspoke. I don't know anything about females sensing winter coming. The females will lay as many ooths as possible until she starves to death, dies of old age, or the cold kills her. The approaching winter doesn't change her behavior to where it affects the ooth. To suggest that would imply that maybe she injects some chemical in the ooth to keep them from hatching.

What I am saying is that the ooths figure it out for themselves (in the simplest of words) and if they don't need a cold period, and don't experience one, then they'll hatch. Read my last post, I said that most species don't need it to hatch. As for the last question, well I'm not sure. For a species that isn't dependent upon a cold period to stall hatching (say T. sinensis), probably not. It typically takes more than one day to fool an ooth. Think about it, not all winter days are cold, not all spring days are hot. So if you get one random extreme day, you don't want everything hatching because then when the weather gets normal again...things go wrong. You don't see mantids hatching on a warm day in the middle of winter. You see it after a prolonged period of warmness after winter or (in the case of those that don't need the cold) a continuing of warm weather in an unusual winter.


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