# Why not feed crickets?



## bugzilla (Mar 19, 2008)

Why don't people like to feed crickets to their mantis?

ATM I'm feeding mine on various sized crickets that have been fed fruit - grapes, apple, cucumber, honey etc. I also catch whatever flying insects I can find but these are in REALLY short supply atm (good, rainy, cold Welsh weather  ).

I've read about curly wing flies but these look to be a right pain to rear/catch. Are they worth all the hastle.

Does anyone have any other suggestions for food items. (something frozen would be nice - if only  )

Cheers

Huw


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## macro junkie (Mar 19, 2008)

i think it was last year or the year before there was some sort of crickt infection or somthing,and people lost there hole stcok because of it..im in no doubt that the crickets i was feeding my adult female jade killed her..im sure if she was on bluebottle flys she would still be alive..mayby.crickets are dirty nasty things.soon as i hatched enough flys i wont be using them again! crickets kill mantids.


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## bugzilla (Mar 19, 2008)

macro junkie said:


> i think it was last year or the year before there was some sort of crickt infection or somthing,and people lost there hole stcok because of it..im in no doubt that the crickets i was feeding my adult female jade killed her..im sure if she was on bluebottle flys she would still be alive..mayby.crickets are dirty nasty things.soon as i hatched enough flys i wont be using them again! crickets kill mantids.


So it's a disease issue as opposed to a nutrition one?

How do you rear your flies then? does it make the type of smell I imagine it will and how do you feed them to the mantis? I find the slippery little beggers are a nightmare to handle without themescaping everywhere.

Thanks

Huw


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## Rick (Mar 19, 2008)

I feed crickets 98% of the time! There is no reason NOT to use crickets. Feed them well and they make fine feeders. Every now and then someone has problems they blame on crickets and everyone freaks out.


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## macro junkie (Mar 19, 2008)

Rick said:


> I feed crickets 98% of the time! There is no reason NOT to use crickets. Feed them well and they make fine feeders. Every now and then someone has problems they blame on crickets and everyone freaks out.


i feed mine weekerbix and appple..i keep the tank extra clean..my jade started being sick last week then yesterday she died..she was in perfect condtions..79f..the only reson i can think of is it was the crickets..she had only laid 1 ooth and was adult couple of months,.


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## Rick (Mar 19, 2008)

macro junkie said:


> i feed mine weekerbix and appple..i keep the tank extra clean..my jade started being sick last week then yesterday she died..she was in perfect condtions..79f..the only reson i can think of is it was the crickets..she had only laid 1 ooth and was adult couple of months,.


Crickets are fine for mantids. I just put them in a tub with some oatmeal substrate and feed them leafy greens and cat food. No issues. To the original poster, don't get discouraged from this food source based on what a few people say. After all they cannot confirm crickets had anything to do with their issues.


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## Mantida (Mar 19, 2008)

Basically, Rick is right. As long as you feed your crickets adequately, with a protein base (that is important, most people tend to forget crickets need protein too, and give them watery foods), and keep them clean, they'll be fine.

The problem with crickets starts when they are neglected, or bought straight from the petshop and given to the mantids. That is not a good idea, you could very well end up with a sick or dying mantis.


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## tier (Mar 19, 2008)

Hi

I do not know only one german breeder (breeder, not keeper) who uses crickets. At least the crickets you can get in germany are worsest food, use them and kill your mantid.

Well, Hierodula membranacea is so rubust, they can even eat crickets without problems.

regards


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## Krissim Klaw (Mar 19, 2008)

I've always thought crickets were a great prey item, and have fed them to all my mantises and never had a problem. Like Mantida and Rick said just make sure to feed them a good diet, and make sure not to feed new crickets immediately after purchasing. One other thing to remember about crickets is they are predators and are capable of killing or injuring a mantis. Normally this only comes into play if you have a weak, injured, or mantis that sheds it's skin while the crickets are in its cage. In all my years I've never had a cricket injure one of my mantises through attack so as long as your mantis is healthy, to begin with, I wouldn't worry about it.


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## blitzmantis (Mar 19, 2008)

just to proof their is no problem with crickets, i neglect my crickets so much, no food or water, i just leave them the box and they have not caused any problems.


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## darkspeed (Mar 19, 2008)

I tend to be on the fence about this one... It is my understanding that black crickets are poisonous if eaten by other animals and really have no natural predators, which is why every year we have them around here by the millions, literally congregating around light sources to the point that the stench of thousands of dead crickets is nausiating...In my line of work (large scale food production) it is a major battle to keep them out of our facility.

Yet brown crickets are supposed to be ok. That makes me feel that there is a fine evolutionary line between the two, and that depending on the purity of the source of the crickets, that line may be crossed and one could end up with an occasional poisonous brown cricket... It may not be enough to kill a lizard or a tarantula, but Mantids are much more delicate. I know that my Ghosts would not touch crickets, and the one time I coerced one of them to eat some of one, he vomited it back up.


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## Krissim Klaw (Mar 19, 2008)

DARKSPEED said:


> I tend to be on the fence about this one... It is my understanding that black crickets are poisonous if eaten by other animals and really have no natural predators, which is why every year we have them around here by the millions, literally congregating around light sources to the point that the stench of thousands of dead crickets is nausiating...In my line of work (large scale food production) it is a major battle to keep them out of our facility. Yet brown crickets are supposed to be ok. That makes me feel that there is a fine evolutionary line between the two, and that depending on the purity of the source of the crickets, that line may be crossed and one could end up with an occasional poisonous brown cricket... It may not be enough to kill a lizard or a tarantula, but Mantids are much more delicate. I know that my Ghosts would not touch crickets, and the one time I coerced one of them to eat some of one, he vomited it back up.


Links/documentation please if you have any on black crickets (what species?) being toxic to certain predators. I've never heard of this and couldn't find anything on the web about it. I wouldn't be worried about store crickets being the dangerous variety since they are bred in captivity and a completely different line of crickets. The only worry I would have is that while in other hands the crickets could have been introduced or managed to ingest a dangerous substance that could intern effect the mantises if eaten. That is why I always give store bought crickets at least a week, to die off or clear there systems before feeding to my mantises.As for the ghosts, My male ghost had no problem tackling crickets and never showed any negative effects from his cricket diet.


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## macro junkie (Mar 19, 2008)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Links/documentation please if you have any on black crickets (what species?) being toxic to certain predators. I've never heard of this and couldn't find anything on the web about it. I wouldn't be worried about store crickets being the dangerous variety since they are bred in captivity and a completely different line of crickets. The only worry I would have is that while in other hands the crickets could have been introduced or managed to ingest a dangerous substance that could intern effect the mantises if eaten. That is why I always give store bought crickets at least a week, to die off or clear there systems before feeding to my mantises.As for the ghosts, My male ghost had no problem tackling crickets and never showed any negative effects from his cricket diet.


mine has mixture of flys and crickets..there fine..got them at L3 there sub adult now


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## bugzilla (Mar 19, 2008)

Thanks for all the replies.

Looks like there are lots of different experiences out there.

I was thinking that the crickets may harbour some kind of pathogen but when I think of flies this doesn't seem so bad. Krissim's info on what they have been eating seems like a more likely cause or concern :blink: 

Mine will be getting a good clean out tomorrow at the very least. Role on the summer months when I can catch some nice clean wild bits and pieces :lol: 

Huw


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## Andrew (Mar 19, 2008)

I've been using crickets for all of my mantids that have outgrown houseflies. I haven't had any problems.


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## Precious (Mar 19, 2008)

Crickets will eat newly moulted mantids, even gang up on adults. Sometimes that's just our own negligence. I've lost several Chinese nymphs to crickets recently because I wasn't paying attention. I don't like them, but I use them. I had one bite me once. Devils.

I have had some mantids sick that had a brown vomit that appeared to be associated with crix. I fed them flies, they got better and I gave them crix again and they were fine. I think the bottom line is the manitid's diet in the wild would be primarily flying insects, in most cases. So it would be common sense that flying food is best. I use a lot of crix and have had very few issues, healthy mantids, nice ooths and hatches. I still hate them.

Has anyone seen Halloween 5? I think it was 5, Michael Myers' head (I think it was Michael) exploded and all these roaches came pouring out. It looked funny to me and backed up on the DVR (it was Fearfest on AMC in Oct.) and looked in slo-mo and they were'nt roaches, THEY WERE CRIX! The same brown devils we use. That's how nasty they are. They explode out of people's heads.

Rick, could you elaborate on the oatmeal substrate? Does it help with the smell? Mine don't have substrate and I feed them Flucker's and potatos.


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## Andrew (Mar 19, 2008)

I started using the oatmeal substrate, I think after I read about Rick using it. I buy a thousand crickets at a time because of my reptiles. With a couple of inches of the oatmeal, there's virtually no odor, and the crickets eat it too.


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## Rob Byatt (Mar 19, 2008)

The two main reasons that crickets CAN cause death in mantids have been mentioned already; neglected crickets at home and ones bought from petshops that neglect them  



tier said:


> HiI do not know only one german breeder (breeder, not keeper) who uses crickets. At least the crickets you can get in germany are worsest food, use them and kill your mantid.
> 
> Well, Hierodula membranacea is so rubust, they can even eat crickets without problems.
> 
> regards


Stephan is 100% correct in all of the above statements.

The Germans have always been ahead of the rest of us when it comes to breeding insects  

Crickets are known carriers of microsporidians. These may be the cause of many mantid deaths after feeding them with infected crickets.

The most important point is the last - certain species are more vunerable than others. I will still use crickets (well fed ones !) for the tougher species eg. _H. membranacea, Sphodromantis spp., Deroplatys spp., Euchomenella sp., Tenodera spp., _. I NEVER feed crickets to more 'delicate' species i.e. ones that are more specific in their prey choices eg. _Hymenopus coronatus, Pseudocreobotra_spp. the Empusidae.

Since I stopped feeding crickets to _Cilnia humeralis_ two years ago, I have had a massive increase in survival. Interestingly, adult female _Plistospilota guineensis_ also die coincidentally after eating crickets, though this species is a pain anyway !


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## bugzilla (Mar 19, 2008)

Rob Byatt said:


> The two main reasons that crickets CAN cause death in mantids have been mentioned already; neglected crickets at home and ones bought from petshops that neglect them  Stephan is 100% correct in all of the above statements.
> 
> The Germans have always been ahead of the rest of us when it comes to breeding insects
> 
> ...


Is there any way of cleaning/steralising them befoere feeding?


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## Rick (Mar 19, 2008)

I buy crickets 1000 at a time from reputable breeders online and NOT from a pet store. They're much cheaper bought in bulk anyways. Crickets are not harmful to mantids. It is also a slim chance they will chew on a mantis. If they do it is usually a sick or dying mantis or one that has fallen during a molt. But then again you should remove all types of food if the mantis is about to molt. Go ahead and use them and don't worry. You can also use flies, roaches, or anything you find outside which includes black crickets. I feed mine almost anything I find outside which even includes bees. No wasps as most refuse them for some reason. I can count on half a hand how many times I have had problems related to crickets.


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## Andrew (Mar 19, 2008)

For the record, I also buy 1000 at a time, still boxed up from the online seller that the pet store bought them from.


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## darkspeed (Mar 20, 2008)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Links/documentation please if you have any on black crickets (what species?) being toxic to certain predators. I've never heard of this and couldn't find anything on the web about it. I wouldn't be worried about store crickets being the dangerous variety since they are bred in captivity and a completely different line of crickets. The only worry I would have is that while in other hands the crickets could have been introduced or managed to ingest a dangerous substance that could intern effect the mantises if eaten. That is why I always give store bought crickets at least a week, to die off or clear there systems before feeding to my mantises.As for the ghosts, My male ghost had no problem tackling crickets and never showed any negative effects from his cricket diet.


I have not found any literature to support it either, but that is what I was told by my local pet store owner... he may very well have told me that to keep me from catching my own crickets and instead putting my money in his pocket...... nevertheless, if there is another feeder insect available I usually choose them over crickets. They are a last resort for me.


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## Christian (Mar 20, 2008)

Crickets are not toxic to mantids, it seems clear why pet store owners try to establish this bull****.

However, they may carry pathogens, and, at least over here, they do. So, it is of absolutely no importance to anyone affected that Rick, for instance, has no problems with his ones. Rather, he is lucky to have a good supplier. I can't say this of my sources. It is useless to start a topic and ask the guys if they use crickets, as you will get different answers. You just have to test it by yourself: if your mantids die, don't use them, if not, they are fine. I wrote already on this topic. One point though, should be highlighted: if a cricket box contains infected crickets, no food whatsoever can solve the problem. It is a pathogen, a parasite, the food offered makes no difference. So, you may either have a good supplier of mantid-proof crickets or you should breed them by yourself. In all other cases, feeding crickets to mantids is risky. Positive experiences by a few don't outweigh the losses of many.

EDIT: I completely forgot an important point: often infected mantids don't die, but recover. One may think then that everything is fine, but it isn't, as the concerned specimens are infertile. I wonder how many breeding attempts failed because of this reason!


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## Mantida (Mar 20, 2008)

Damn, I'm glad I read your post Christian. Seems like the risk outweighs the actual benefits of feeding crickets, no?  I guess I have a good supplier, but I don't think I'll be using crickets again.


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## Orin (Mar 20, 2008)

DARKSPEED said:


> I have not found any literature to support it either, but that is what I was told by my local pet store owner... he may very well have told me that to keep me from catching my own crickets and instead putting my money in his pocket...... nevertheless, if there is another feeder insect available I usually choose them over crickets. They are a last resort for me.


Your pet store owner has an ative imagination if not just trying to pull one over on you.

Flies are deficient in certain amino acids which causes serious issues in arachnids and centipedes but doesn't seem to bother mantids. Waxworm larvae are little more than bags of fat and are not a recommended diet for reptiles, but might be just fine for mantids. Mantids grown on roaches do tend to grow larger and have less trouble than those reared on crickets (under otherwise identical conditions only of course). The care taken and amount of feeding can be far more important than the type of prey.


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## Rick (Mar 20, 2008)

Mantida said:


> Damn, I'm glad I read your post Christian. Seems like the risk outweighs the actual benefits of feeding crickets, no?  I guess I have a good supplier, but I don't think I'll be using crickets again.


Obvioulsy Christian knows his stuff but I think you're worrying about something that isn't worth worrying about. As with any food there is a risk of some sort however I think this risk is very low. For the record mine come from Grubco and Wormman.


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## Christian (Mar 20, 2008)

I can assure you that the problem is not a minor one over here. I think it's rather difficult to assess the severeness of the problem if you were never faced with it. Despite of supplier quality it would maybe be good to know which species you are keeping, Rick: if you are/were just keeping the robust ones, this may explain partially (?) the problem.


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## bugzilla (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm keeping orchids and flower mantis atm so am figuring these are not overly robust and they've cost me an arm and a leg (the orchids set me back almost £60 with delivery) so I don't want to risk anything with these in particular.

I'll have to order some curly wing flies next week. How long will these last? Would hathing out maggots from a fishing tackle shop be OK, or maybe the maggots themselves???


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## macro junkie (Mar 20, 2008)

well my jade was being sick for 1 week..somone said on here u cant over feed mantids..so the only reason i can think of is she had a bad cricket..if it had flys mayby it walnut of happened..1 week later shes dead?if that wasnt the crickets that done it what was it?


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## Krissim Klaw (Mar 20, 2008)

Christian said:


> In all other cases, feeding crickets to mantids is risky. Positive experiences by a few don't outweigh the losses of many.


I wasn't aware that there was such a high death rate with mantises on crickets? So are the flies and roaches just not prone to as many pathogens/parasites or is it that generally the places that breed/sell them care for them better than crickets?I must admit my study group of mantises is far smaller than most members on this site. I keep mine strictly as pets and don't breed. Normally I only like to have 1-3 at a time. That being said, they are my little bug eyed babies and I try to keep them as healthy as possible. Still, I also regularly feed wild caught and I know certainly there is risk involved in that practice too, but my mantises seem to thrive on the variety.


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## Rick (Mar 20, 2008)

I have had problems with mantids that I assumed were caused by a bad batch of crickets. This has only happened once or twice in several years though. I think that where you get your crickets probably has something to do with it. Here in the US we have plenty of choices of where to buy them from. In other countries this cricket problem may be more of an issue. So as for mantids keepers in the US I think this is very low risk if at all.

bugzilla, keep the maggots in the fridge and take out however many you want to pupate. At room temps they should turn into flies in a week or so. I find these are great food for mantids that are too big for fruit flies. For large mantids you have to feed a lot of these in order to fill the mantis up and you should probably switch to crickets or roaches.


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## tier (Mar 20, 2008)

Hi

I want to abstract my thoughts on crickets. Therefor I want to determine them first:

In Germany you can get several kinds of "crickets", which are in general:

-Acheta domestica

-Gryllus bimaculatus

-Gryllus assimlilis

-mule of these species

First: All are great food as long as they do not carry pathogens.

Second: All these species available in Germany do carry pathogens, in general every box of crickets over here do.

Rick, I do believe that you do not have this problems in USA, you should be right because healthy crickets should be great food.

Third: Some species like Blepharopsis, Gongylus, Idolomantis and other Empusidae can die after eating crickets. This concerns adult females only because they cannot lay ooth anymore but will be congested by the ooth-material and die a slow death. This has nothing to do with pathogens but with the diet itself: No crickets - neither ill nor the healthiest ones - for our Empusidae, please.

best regards and have a nice easter,

tier


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## Precious (Mar 21, 2008)

I haven't been keeping mantids too very long, and there is no scientific or statistical support to my observations. That said, my mantids fair much better on flies, moths, butterflies and bees than they do on the crickets. If it made that much difference, I wouldn't use crickets and I use them all the time. C'est la vie. I order bulk crickets online and am amazed at the difference in their quality as opposed to the pet store. The pet store is dang handy, though. I'm curious about the oatmeal. I have two large plastic containers with fresh egg carton and I transfer the crix once a week. It allows me to remove the dead and sanitize the enclosure. Maybe a substrate of oatmeal would be easier.


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## bugzilla (Mar 22, 2008)

Just a tought on crickets causing deaths, could this also be to do with the food they get.

Most supermarket produce is literally covered in pesticides, washing won't do much to clean them as some will get absorbed into the leaves. Crickets eat this and are pretty tough but accumulate the poison in their tissues which then kills the mantis :huh: 

This happens in nature all the time, Seratoga poisoning form fish in Australia for exaample.

From what some peolpe have said about vomiting just after eating a cricket I can't see a pathogen acting this quickly (except Ebola maybe :lol: )

Just a thought

Huw


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## Rick (Mar 22, 2008)

Precious said:


> I haven't been keeping mantids too very long, and there is no scientific or statistical support to my observations. That said, my mantids fair much better on flies, moths, butterflies and bees than they do on the crickets. If it made that much difference, I wouldn't use crickets and I use them all the time. C'est la vie. I order bulk crickets online and am amazed at the difference in their quality as opposed to the pet store. The pet store is dang handy, though. I'm curious about the oatmeal. I have two large plastic containers with fresh egg carton and I transfer the crix once a week. It allows me to remove the dead and sanitize the enclosure. Maybe a substrate of oatmeal would be easier.


I rarely if ever actually clean the cricket enclosure. I pick out uneaten food but that's about it. According to this thread I must have unheard of results with using crickets since my mantids are all healthy and are not dying from crickets. I think a lot of you need to look at how you keep your crickets or where you get em from.


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## Orin (Mar 22, 2008)

Rick said:


> According to this thread I must have unheard of results with using crickets since my mantids are all healthy and are not dying from crickets.


 Maybe but I used primarily purchased crickets years ago and know others who did the same with good success for a number of mantis species. I've never heard of such a thing here in the states but I guess there could be some undescribed orthopteran plague in Europe.


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## Rick (Mar 22, 2008)

Orin said:


> Maybe but I used primarily purchased crickets years ago and know others who did the same with good success for a number of mantis species. I've never heard of such a thing here in the states but I guess there could be some undescribed orthopteran plague in Europe.


Well obviously I am speaking for those here in the US as I mentioned before.


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## Christian (Mar 22, 2008)

You must be lucky over there to have such a good cricket supply. We had good crickets, too, but since a few years all we get is ######. It probably is due to two factors: first of all, the number of herp and bug guys is increasing, so the cricket breeders learned that it would become a good deal and raised the numbers of bred crickets. I doubt that that all of them raised the space needed in the same manner... As everywhere, overpopulation is a good source for pathogens, so the crickets became either sick or were treated with chemicals to supress the illnesses, both of which don't really do well to other arthropods. The problem is that the main customers aren't mantid guys, but herpies, and the vertebrate gut probably doesn't bother because of some lousy arthropod illnesses. So, as long as the herp guys don't complain, why change the procedure?

The second point may be a little more delicate: some cricket suppliers are worse than other ones. There are some indices that they treat their crickets in a way to prevent others to breed them by themselves, so they are forced to buy them from the supplier again: it is said that some use radiation to sterilize them, or some chemicals. Now, I cannot say if this is true, but I know from a collegue who wanted to establish a breeding stock, that some crickets just don't reproduce. He tried another source and these crickets reproduced formidably under the same conditions. So, I decided to leave the suppliers with their ###### alone and breed my own roaches.


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## Rob Byatt (Mar 23, 2008)

Christian said:


> The problem is that the main customers aren't mantid guys, but herpies, and the vertebrate gut probably doesn't bother because of some lousy arthropod illnesses. So, as long as the herp guys don't complain, why change the procedure?


True, most customers are herpies. But......a few years a go crickets did cause big problems with herps. Everybody was complaining then  

As Christian and I both stated before, some species of mantis remain unaffected by 'infected' crickets.

Rick, what species are you keeping ?

Rob.


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## Rob Byatt (Mar 28, 2008)

Rick,

please tell us what species you are keeping.


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## bugzilla (May 16, 2008)

I had a chat with a lady at a local exotic pet shop yesterday which I found interesting. She keeps tarantulas of various species and told me that some of the problem with feeder crickets is that when the egg carton in the box gets wet the cricks eat it and also the mould that grows on it. This in turn poisons the mantis/tarantula that eats them, or at least blocks their gut.

I wondering if this is why keepers in mainland Europe have problems but not those in the states. Maybe the card used contains some contaminants that accumulate in the crickets then poison the mantis :huh:


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## Rob Byatt (May 16, 2008)

Come on Rick, I'm only asking what species you have fed crickets to so we can help clear this up  As stated previously, some species really are okay after eating infected crickets.


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## pedro92 (May 16, 2008)

I've fed my crix to my ghosts, chinese, and g.asians. They are all doing good. I heard that it is not good to feed a cricket to a female and im curious if that means every species or what and also why would that matter.


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