# Ultimate Fruit-Fly Medium (NO, really... seriously)



## lectricblueyes (Jun 8, 2009)

1 Cup Hot Water

1/2 Cup of Mashed Potato Mix

1 Teaspoon of Reptile Vitamin Powder

1-2 Drops of methylene blue (After stirring, medium should be mint-green)

Few grains of Yeast

Vitamin powder comes in a 4.5oz can. Enough for probably 90-100 cultures and costs around $3-$5. HERE is a link to what I bought.

Methylene blue is a great fungus inhibitor. It's used to cure fish suffering from fungal infections. It's used in many areas of science. To read up on it, go HERE. It can be bought in small bottles for a few dollars. You can find it at pet shops that carry fish or stores that specialize in fish.

1. Mix hot water with potato mix AND vitamin powder.

2. Stir real good to get the vitamins mixed up and any powder should be stirred and dissolved.

3. Add Methylene blue, 1-2 dops at a time and stir until you reach a mint-green color. Concentrate will only take 1-2 drops while the diluted kind might require 4-5 drops.

4. Sprinkle the yeast on top and your done.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jun 8, 2009)

Good to see you back again Dave, and thanks for reintroducing that popular debatable subject, ff cultures!  

Your friend doesn't raise mantids, does he? That's why he recommends Ca (!) and vitamins, right? Good for all those little dendrobites and herps, no doubt, but not for mantids, so far as I can determine, certainly not the Ca!

Methylene blue does indeed act as an antifungal, but so does vinegar, which is much cheaper and easier to find than Meth Blue and is greatly enjoyed by ffs. We've all heard of vinegar and fruit flies, right, but who ever heard of methylene blue flies?

The ratio of water to flakes is about half what most people, including the manufacturers of instant potatoes for human consumption, recommend. Why so dry? Unless you live in a very humid location ("lake effect," yay!), your medium must dry out very quickly unless you are spritzing it regularly, which adds to upkeep time, and why "very hot" water?

What is the process by which fruit flies "break down" vitamins and how do these "broken down" vitamins help your mantids? Yen and some other highly successful breeders use pollen to dust their feeders, because it is carried on the insects, (bees, flies, bees and bees) that they normally eat, but has anyone ever seen or read about mantids with vitamin deficiency? Save your money!

And he thinks that yeast is optional? Once again, I refer you and everyone else to Christian's post on ff cultures (that I am currently too lazy to look up) that points out the fact that the fruit fly larvae are _living off the microorganisms on top of the culture_, not the medium itself, and yeast is an excellent source of such microorganisms, together with rotting fruit like bananas and apples.

Okay my friend, it's your turn to blast me with a withering reply (or wither me with a blasting reply!)!

P.S. Long experience does not always impart technical knowledge. You know the huge sewage plant in Stickney? There used to be an old guy there who explained to school kids how bacteria broke down the waste and even pointed the bacteria out to the kids. They looked like dung flies to me!


----------



## Rick (Jun 8, 2009)

Pretty much same recipe as mine minus the vitamins. I get the commercially made medium which is just potato flakes with mold inhibitor mixed in and you add a pinch of yeast. The blue stuff is not necessary and is just added to see the maggots better. My cultures always lasted a long time. He didn't really tell you anything special to be honest though I may try the vitamins added.


----------



## lectricblueyes (Jun 8, 2009)

.


----------



## Rick (Jun 8, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> Taken from Wikipedia:"Methylene blue is used in aquaculture and by tropical fish hobbyists as a treatment for fungal infections. It can also be effective in treating fish infected with ich, the parasitic protozoa Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. It is usually used to protect newly laid fish eggs from being infected by fungus or bacteria. This is useful when the hobbyist wants to artificially hatch the fish eggs. Methylene Blue is also very effective when used as part of a "medicated fish bath" for treatment of ammonia, nitrite, and cyanide poisoning as well as for topical and internal treatment of injured or sick fish as a "first response"
> 
> LINK here.
> 
> ...


Nevermind. I read your post quickly and was thinking it was the food coloring stuff they add. My stuff has mold inhibitor added but the cultures are white.


----------



## lectricblueyes (Jun 8, 2009)

.


----------



## lectricblueyes (Jun 8, 2009)

.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jun 8, 2009)

"Healhier feeders with diversified nutritional content can only be good for our mantids."

That sounds like a health food commercial and makes about as much sense! The principle vitamin necessary for insects is thiamine, which is abundant in brewer's yeast. A number of vitamins that are benefial to humans, A, D, E, K, are not water soluble, so they are unlikely to do much for the fruit flies.

Most important, though is the issue of metabolism versus gut loading, see here: http://www.nagonline.net/Technical%20Paper...002MODIFIED.pdf for example.

Vitamins are given to prey insects, such as crickets, with the intention that they will be eaten before the vitamins and other nutrients are absorbed, to make the insect a "more complete nutritional package." Obviously, even if you could demonstrate hypovitaminosis in your mantids (how can you tell?) this is not the way to adress it.

"There are MANY ways to inhibit fungus (honey, yeast, etc) but there are few effective ways to inhibit fungus AND common forms of bacteria without being toxic."

Honey is, in fact, bacteriostatic, but what "common bacteria" do you wish to protect your fruit flies and ultimately your mantids from? Flies grow in bacteria laden filth in nature, but this does not apparently harm either mantids in the wild or those to whom we feed wild insects.

See, I told you that this would be fun!

Dave: You posted your reply while I was still shortsightedly pecking out mine!

I've wondered about Yen's pollen myself, but I do know that in nature, mantids, particularly flower mantids, which eat a lot of bees, flies, bees and more bees, injest a lot of pollen and that in captivity they appear to enjoy honey, so I would place its hypothetical value, at least, higher than a vitamin concoction which seems to benefit the retailer more than the insect. I don't really think that being a professional, like Hibiscusmile, from whom you probably bought the pollen or an amateur, like Yen, who invented it, makes much difference to the quality of the food or the insects. I'm sure you know that the pollen is just a source of second class protein, not vitamins.

Dissolving the water-soluble vitamins may be his reason for using hot water, but if so, the vitamins will precipitate out when the solution cools!

And so it goes!


----------



## lectricblueyes (Jun 9, 2009)

.


----------



## revmdn (Jun 9, 2009)

I used to love White Castle.


----------



## Rick (Jun 9, 2009)

LectricBlueyes said:


> I'm befuddled and honestly not in any position to discuss the breakdown of various vitamins found in supplementary powder or found in nature given my experience and laziness. But what about the minerals such as calcium, amino acids, proteins, and the other stuff found in the supplemental? While your advice is well researched I don't know that I can honestly believe we through our potato-mix FF cultures provide the myriad of nutrients found in nature.
> 
> So, I have it straight from you Phil... what you are saying is that the multivitamin supplement is a complete and utter waste. All of the various vitamins, amino acids, protein, yadda yadda are just going to go in and out of the fruit flies/mantids faster than a White Castle slider?


Who cares? Many have raised fruit flies for mantids for a very long time without doing anything really fancy. I think you think into these things too much. Get yourself some medium or make your own and be done with it. It doesn't have to be fancy.


----------



## lectricblueyes (Jun 9, 2009)

Rick said:


> Who cares? Many have raised fruit flies for mantids for a very long time without doing anything really fancy. I think you think into these things too much. Get yourself some medium or make your own and be done with it. It doesn't have to be fancy.


Hey I don't need negative-debby-f*cking-downer chasing after every one of my posts being poopy-a$$ about everything I write. I don't need my techniques and ideas shot down and dissed. I don't mind Phil's constructive critisms with his kind-wit and well-intentions but stay the f*ck out of my threads if you want to be a jerk. Now, I'm not being funny or a "smart-######" as you labeled me, I'm being serious. Nice to be back, thanks!


----------



## bassist (Jun 9, 2009)

What's with people on here past few days? Seems a lot of negative posts have been coming up. I've never really seen Rick's posts as negative and I don't think he really means to sound negative or 'like a jerk'.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jun 9, 2009)

Haha, Dave! I think that I am answering a question that you might have deleted!

No, I don't think the addition of a vitamin powder to a ff culture improves our matids' health and well being in any way, for the reasons that I stated. I agree with you completely that potato flakes contain virtually no vitamins except C and are almost all starch, but we don't feed just potato flakes. Vits A, C, and D are provided by the fruit, though the mantids can sythesize A,D, E and K, and thiamine is provide by the yeast.

This is not to say that you shouldn't use it if you are comfortable with it. It is part of the American Way to try to improve things, be they ff food or devices to protect mantids during mating, and though I might not use them myself, I see no problem in others doing so. I make a lot of ff cultures, though, so I try to strip mine down to the bare essentials that provide many, healthy flies, without spending time and money that I don't have to.

Also, for some obscure reason, I enjoy entering into debates about ff cultures; they are (nearly) always interesting!

Take care!


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 9, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]Well IDK no what is going on, Dave I thought that if your ff make your mantids happy then its cool with me, or Phil or Rick, did I forget any one I sorry  I am not trying to piss on any ones weaties :lol: .[/SIZE]

:huh: I use this mix 8cups of potato flakes, 1cup brewer'syeast, 1cup powdered sugar, then 2 cups water also 2 cups white distilled vinegar and mix. then mix with 1/4 cup water, &amp; 1/4 cup white distilled vinegar "about 6-8 cups in summer", and I keep it up, mixing and adding till I get mash potatos, I take brakes in mixing so its all sets up right "not runny" but softed'n mashed potatos. I got this mix from 2 frog breeder out here in Colorado oh ya it will make 18-20 1/2 32oz ff's cultures.  I have been only makeinh them for about almost 1 1/2 years for frogs.


----------



## hibiscusmile (Jun 9, 2009)

I dont see Lectrics post, I must be going blind :huh: someone help Me!


----------



## bassist (Jun 10, 2009)

He deleted them.


----------



## jacksun (Jun 10, 2009)

I've been using the applesauce recipe, with slight modifications with good success. The original recipe is posted on this forum somewhere, search applesauce. Here is my recipe...

Mix 1 part cornmeal with 1 part white flour.

add 1 part of the above mixture to 3 parts all natural unsweetened apple sauce

add 1 tbsp white vinegar

(If it is too runny increase the amount of the cornmeal/flour mix you use, but don't make it too thick, it should still be pourable, but not runny)

pour into a 32oz pot

sprinkle the top with dry yeast

toss in a couple napkins/coffee filters

add flies

bake covered at 350F for 22-25 minutes, remove and allow to cool before serving to your inlaws

Ok, all but the last line are what I do  

The mixture smells a little vinegary, that's about it though.


----------



## hibiscusmile (Jun 10, 2009)

Why u tease me Lectric? post ,,, no post,,, post mmm,,,,, no post! h34r: :wacko: :lol:


----------



## OGIGA (Jun 10, 2009)

Sad, I wanna see Lectric's posts.

Anyway, I think the idea is fine. I think Lectric should do an experiment, scientific style, and show us the results.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jun 10, 2009)

OGIGA said:


> Sad, I wanna see Lectric's posts.Anyway, I think the idea is fine. I think Lectric should do an experiment, scientific style, and show us the results.


The problem is, on what would you base your judgment? Longer life, greater fecundity, more joie de vivre?

What would be a good test population, a hunded fed with supplemented ffs and a hundred without? But since this is only likely to affect them through their first couple of instars, should we look at molt times and weight of the nymphs at the end of the second instar and, if there is a difference, see if that difference is lost after becoming adult?

Or, how about sitting down with some beer and a few dozen sliders?  God, Dave, I wish you hadn't mentioned them!!


----------



## lectricblueyes (Jun 12, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> The problem is, on what would you base your judgment? Longer life, greater fecundity, more joie de vivre? What would be a good test population, a hundred fed with supplemented ffs and a hundred without? But since this is only likely to affect them through their first couple of instars, should we look at molt times and weight of the nymphs at the end of the second instar and, if there is a difference, see if that difference is lost after becoming adult?
> 
> Or, how about sitting down with some beer and a few dozen sliders?  God, Dave, I wish you hadn't mentioned them!!


Essentially, nobody here can truly prove most of what they say unless put under TRUE scientific scrutiny in a laboratory unless the results are OVER-overwhelmingly obvious.

Many of us have things that work. The old saying goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

If we were to all truly follow that saying we would all be driving Model-T's and watching our wood-finished black &amp; white TV cabinet/councils. heck, maybe we'd all be sitting around the ole-family radio. But, Rick would be happy!

I like to think outside of the box. To challenge the same-ole ideas in hopes for progression through new or better methods. But, as another saying goes.... the path to success is paved in failure.

That's why I bring these ideas here. To listen to those who know far more than I do. As long as it's done in a respectful way, I'd like to hear that advice/criticism and I am grateful for your time.

My methods will not always be the most inexpensive. Heck, I remember a month or so ago I was amazed at my $30 bookshelf from Walmart until I saw all of you good folks showing me your shelves from other stores which were even better.

Anyway, the point is... let the show go on.. and most important.. have fun.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jun 12, 2009)

I'll drink to that, Dave! What's yours?


----------



## lectricblueyes (Jun 12, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> I'll drink to that, Dave! What's yours?


A&amp;W with a big scoop of vanilla!


----------



## d17oug18 (Jun 12, 2009)

bumber you erased all your comments, i wanted to replecate your incubation chamber lol. let me know if you can send me at least the pic through email ^_^


----------



## lectricblueyes (Jun 12, 2009)

d17oug18 said:


> bumber you erased all your comments, i wanted to replecate your incubation chamber lol. let me know if you can send me at least the pic through email ^_^


I'll put it back up  I got pissed and acted like a baby. Sometimes it's better to let the train go by. lol

Yours Truly,

DramaMantis


----------



## hibiscusmile (Jun 12, 2009)

I'll have a coke if your buying!


----------



## lectricblueyes (Jun 12, 2009)

d17oug18 said:


> bumber you erased all your comments, i wanted to replecate your incubation chamber lol. let me know if you can send me at least the pic through email ^_^


Here it is:

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14200


----------



## lectricblueyes (Jun 12, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> I'll have a coke if your buying!


I'll buy, but only if you add some rum to it!


----------



## OGIGA (Jun 12, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> The problem is, on what would you base your judgment? Longer life, greater fecundity, more joie de vivre? What would be a good test population, a hunded fed with supplemented ffs and a hundred without? But since this is only likely to affect them through their first couple of instars, should we look at molt times and weight of the nymphs at the end of the second instar and, if there is a difference, see if that difference is lost after becoming adult?
> 
> Or, how about sitting down with some beer and a few dozen sliders?  God, Dave, I wish you hadn't mentioned them!!


I hope you're not trying to be pessimistic. I wouldn't remotely call those "problems". They are questions that we want answers to and it's not impossible to find. On just the fruit flies, you can see which culture lasts longer. With mantises, separate the two groups with one being control and the other being "drugged".

The problem is, you usually kill the test subjects in the end, including the control. That's lab for you!


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jun 13, 2009)

OGIGA said:


> I hope you're not trying to be pessimistic. I wouldn't remotely call those "problems". They are questions that we want answers to and it's not impossible to find. On just the fruit flies, you can see which culture lasts longer. With mantises, separate the two groups with one being control and the other being "drugged".The problem is, you usually kill the test subjects in the end, including the control. That's lab for you!


Who, me? Pessimistic? Never! But it is much easier to talk about scientific experimentation than to perform it accurately.

Let me give you an example. Wild fruit flies are always welcome in my kitchen and I sometimes catch them to make new cultures. Three days ago I made six identical cultures, using 1:1 potato flakes and water, some brown sugar and cider vinegar, mixed together and placed in six 32oz pots. Next I chopped up a seriously black banana into six pieces, lightly mashed each piece and put it in a pot. Then I added six thin half slices of apple and put them on top of the culture and added a few grains of yeast and some excelsior and left the pots open for the night (with lights on) so that the ffs would be attracted to the pots. I added a few drops of vinegar to all six pots to act as an added attractant. Next day, I put the lids on and had 25 - 50 ffs in each pot.

Three days later, all six pots have maggots, but four of the pots have newly hatched flies, several hundred in each pot.

How could this be? How could the ffs have eclosed after only three days, and why has this not occured in two of the pots?

If you know the answer to this question from experience, please don't answer yet. If you have a good theory as to why this happened, let's hear it!


----------



## Katnapper (Jun 13, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Who, me? Pessimistic? Never! But it is much easier to talk about scientific experimentation than to perform it accurately.Let me give you an example. Wild fruit flies are always welcome in my kitchen and I sometimes catch them to make new cultures. Three days ago I made six identical cultures, using 1:1 potato flakes and water, some brown sugar and cider vinegar, mixed together and placed in six 32oz pots. Next I chopped up a seriously black banana into six pieces, lightly mashed each piece and put it in a pot. Then I added six thin half slices of apple and put them on top of the culture and added a few grains of yeast and some excelsior and left the pots open for the night (with lights on) so that the ffs would be attracted to the pots. I added a few drops of vinegar to all six pots to act as an added attractant. Next day, I put the lids on and had 25 - 50 ffs in each pot.
> 
> Three days later, all six pots have maggots, but four of the pots have newly hatched flies, several hundred in each pot.
> 
> ...


Fruit flies had already assaulted your banannas and laid eggs in them before you added them to the cultures?


----------



## OGIGA (Jun 13, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Who, me? Pessimistic? Never! But it is much easier to talk about scientific experimentation than to perform it accurately.Let me give you an example. Wild fruit flies are always welcome in my kitchen and I sometimes catch them to make new cultures. Three days ago I made six identical cultures, using 1:1 potato flakes and water, some brown sugar and cider vinegar, mixed together and placed in six 32oz pots. Next I chopped up a seriously black banana into six pieces, lightly mashed each piece and put it in a pot. Then I added six thin half slices of apple and put them on top of the culture and added a few grains of yeast and some excelsior and left the pots open for the night (with lights on) so that the ffs would be attracted to the pots. I added a few drops of vinegar to all six pots to act as an added attractant. Next day, I put the lids on and had 25 - 50 ffs in each pot.
> 
> Three days later, all six pots have maggots, but four of the pots have newly hatched flies, several hundred in each pot.
> 
> ...


Isn't that what you get in real labs too?


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jun 13, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> Fruit flies had already assaulted your banannas and laid eggs in them before you added them to the cultures?


Haha! What a great way to ruin the suspense! Yeah, I reckon that that's what happened. They hadn't gotten all the way down to the end of the banana, and that's why the last two pots were normal. On the one hand, it's a great way to ruin the hydei culture that you just spent money on, on the other hand it's a great way to "preculture" your mels!

Next time, I'm gonna say, "Anyone can answer except Katt."   

You're right, Ogiga; that's why people spend a lot of time "reduplicating" each others work. Remember the planaria that "inherited" the memories of planaria that had been fed to them? :lol:


----------



## Katnapper (Jun 13, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Haha! What a great way to ruin the suspense! Next time, I'm gonna say, "Anyone can answer except Katt."


  h34r:


----------

