# Wow...



## Morpheus uk (Jun 18, 2009)

This is one weird mantis!

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...sa%3DN%26um%3D1


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## Rick (Jun 18, 2009)

I agree with your statement.


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## revmdn (Jun 18, 2009)

Someone go get some. I would like to have some please.


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## massaman (Jun 18, 2009)

adding my two cents worth

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo130598.htm

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo126007.htm

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo112096.htm

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo56987.htm

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo123250.htm

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo106836.htm

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo117646.htm

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo43432.htm

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo70891.htm

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo117440.htm

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo70831.htm

wierd caterpiller

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo119739.htm


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## Pelle (Jun 18, 2009)

Cool The picture says _Stenophylla cornigera_


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## ABbuggin (Jun 18, 2009)

Nice find Morpheus!

I saw a lot of _Empusa _ in your posted pics massman.


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## Christian (Jun 18, 2009)

The first mantis is _Stenophylla lobivertex_ (_cornigera_ does not occur in Peru). There was another thread on these in the past. I didn't see nymphs of these ones before.


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## [email protected] (Jun 18, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]Cool Pics[/SIZE]


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## jacksun (Jun 21, 2009)

Christian said:


> The first mantis is _Stenophylla lobivertex_ (_cornigera_ does not occur in Peru). There was another thread on these in the past. I didn't see nymphs of these ones before.


Christian, once again your identification of a species is clear and precise. I have read you spend lots of time doing this (are you an entomologist?) and would sincerely love to know, as I am certain others would, how you so quickly and accurately (I assume) identify these odd species. Is there a secret entomologists guide for identification that details unique factors/markings/appearances below the family level that makes identification easier? Can you share with us how you do this?


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## Christian (Jun 21, 2009)

It's not always that easy. I have written on many occasions that the respective mantids cannot be IDed from pics. This holds particularly for speciose groups as _Tarachodes_, _Hierodula_, _Sphodromantis_ etc. and for poorly revised ones as , e. g., _Creobroter_. Many of the small grey or brown ones from S-Africa are impossible to ID from pics.

On the other hand, many genera can be IDed rather properly, according to certain morphological characters and biogeographic distribution. This requires knowing a lot of literature and having seen many collection specimens. To make it short, it's experience. For example, if I see a slender mantis with a two- to four-lobed horn which was photographed in Africa, I know that only Sibyllidae and Empusidae occur there and have such a horn. Closer examination compares wings, legs and head to distinguish between the two families. If the horned mantid comes from the neotropics, it cannot be neither a Sibyllid nor an Empusid, but only some Vatinae. Then you look at the lobes on the legs, the shape of the horn etc. As I said before, this requires that you have experience with many genera.

In this particular case, it was rather easy, as _Stenophylla_ is the only genus with horns above the eyes (actually, the horn isn't _on_ the eye but on the cuticular structure _behind_ it) *and* on the vertex. As there are only three species described of which one has shorter horns as the figured specimen, only two remain. The other one is from Guyana, though, so only one candidate remains. Genera which were revised not long ago are better to work with. Speciose groups usually cannot be IDed without an examination of the genitalia.

To come to an end: you need a lot of experience to do the IDs like me. Some uncertainties always remain if you only have a pic to work with. Anyway, IDs should be restricted to persons which have some taxonomic background, otherwise you cause more damage than help. Guessing into the blue is widespread in the internet; I can't stand this, but telling people not to write anything they don't have a clue of isn't very appreciated either. I don't explain very much in the meanwhile, as it's not worth the time, except for the rare cases that details are required.

Taxonomy isn't very appreciated nowadays, when only genes seem to be "fancy" in science. So, although I am an entomologist (and ecologist) and got some good background, engaging in mantid taxonomy was my choice and my own work. I breed mantids for more than 15 years and read taxonomic papers since about 8-9 years. That helps a lot...  In the meanwhile I can recognize most genera rather well except of some Amelinae, Dystactinae etc.


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## jacksun (Jun 21, 2009)

Thanks Christian, I thought there would certainly be a great deal of experience involved, and being an old guy I know how valuable taxonomy can be. Gene's are great, and their power is incredible, unfortunately they are also pulling research money away from other areas which are no less valuable, but have a significantly potential lower return in the future from a monetary perspective.

From a taxonomy perspective, what book would be your primary reference? I have to start somewhere

Where did you study your entomology? I have been researching schools, but it is hard to differentiate just on a website.

And thanks for all your knowledgeable input on the board, I am certain many of us really appreciate it but fail to say thanks. A solution for one member is a solution for all, isn't it?

Cheers,

Wayne


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## Christian (Jun 21, 2009)

Well, I am actually a tropical ecologist with emphasis on entomology. I studied partially in Würzburg, Germany.

It is not an easy task to focus on this subject if you prefer a "secure" life with a steady income. I can afford it because I have no family. I would not encourage students to become ecologists nowadays, but the situation may be different in the US.

Regarding Mantid taxonomy, the overall starting point is the book of Ehrmann (2002). It's in German, though, but the base of all further studies. You also need Giglio-Tos (1927), which is in French; it's outdated, but provides ID keys.

There also is a catalogue by Otte &amp; Spearman (2005), but it contains many inaccuracies, by far more than the Ehrmann book does. Most taxonomic work was done in journals, though. The last bibliography (also by Ehrmann, 2005) lists over 5000 works on mantids. I still have a lot to do... :lol:


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## chun (Jun 21, 2009)

Christian said:


> It is not an easy task to focus on this subject if you prefer a "secure" life with a steady income





Christian said:


> I would not encourage students to become ecologists nowadays


i'll second that :lol:


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## jacksun (Jun 21, 2009)

Christian said:


> Well, I am actually a tropical ecologist with emphasis on entomology. I studied partially in Würzburg, Germany.It is not an easy task to focus on this subject if you prefer a "secure" life with a steady income. I can afford it because I have no family. I would not encourage students to become ecologists nowadays, but the situation may be different in the US.
> 
> Regarding Mantid taxonomy, the overall starting point is the book of Ehrmann (2002). It's in German, though, but the base of all further studies. You also need Giglio-Tos (1927), which is in French; it's outdated, but provides ID keys.
> 
> There also is a catalogue by Otte &amp; Spearman (2005), but it contains many inaccuracies, by far more than the Ehrmann book does. Most taxonomic work was done in journals, though. The last bibliography (also by Ehrmann, 2005) lists over 5000 works on mantids. I still have a lot to do... :lol:


Christian,

So is the book :

Schutte, K. &amp; Ehrmann, R. (2002):

Gesamtverzeichnis 10 Jahre Arthropoda. Full list 10 years Arthropoda. – Arthropoda, 10(4): 13-27, 1 Abb.; Roßlau. - Arthropoda, 10 (4): 13-27, 1 fig; Rosslau.

or

Ehrmann, R. (2002a):

Mantodea - Gottesanbeterinnen der Welt. Mantodea - Gottesanbeterinnen the world. – Natur und Tier-Verlag, 519 S., 13 Tab., 56 Grafiken, 194 Farbabb.; Münster. - Natural and animal-Verlag, 519 p., 13 Tab, 56 charts, 194 color illustrations.; Munster.

Unless of course you have an ISBN number?

Thanks Heaps,

Wayne


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## Christian (Jun 21, 2009)

The second one.



> Ehrmann, R. (2002a):Mantodea - Gottesanbeterinnen der Welt. Mantodea - Gottesanbeterinnen the world. – Natur und Tier-Verlag, 519 S., 13 Tab., 56 Grafiken, 194 Farbabb.; Münster. - Natural and animal-Verlag, 519 p., 13 Tab, 56 charts, 194 color illustrations.; Munster.


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## jacksun (Jun 22, 2009)

Christian said:


> The second one.


Thanks Christian!

Wayne


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 22, 2009)

Jacksun said:


> Thanks Christian!Wayne


I don't know whether you can find this at your university, Jacksun (I very much doubt it), but if you have tried the German Amazon site you will have found the pessimistic, "Derzeit nicht verfügbar." And under that, the even more pessimistic,

"Ob und wann dieser Artikel wieder vorrätig sein wird, ist unbekannt." Your German must be a lot better than mine; I can manage bread and butter stuff like this, but not technical writing. I think that even Mija, with her formidable command of languages, uses a scientific dictionary in French, German and English, none of which is her native language.


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 22, 2009)

Christian said:


> Well, I am actually a tropical ecologist with emphasis on entomology. I studied partially in Würzburg, Germany.It is not an easy task to focus on this subject if you prefer a "secure" life with a steady income. I can afford it because I have no family. I would not encourage students to become ecologists nowadays, but the situation may be different in the US.


No sir. Europe is the last bastion of true ecology whether in entomology or other fields of zoology. The countries where agriculture is practiced on a large scale, including the US, Australia, and parts of S. America and Africa seem to have one purpose in ecological and physiological study -- how to kill anything that is a "pest."

I know an ecologist at a local federal reserve. She is studying mountain lions (Felis concolor) with state and federal funding. Her job, essentially is to see how many mountain lions should be killed yearly in order to maintain the "threatened" herds of bighorn sheep. Government ecologists at the Olympuc National Park decided that the mountain goat (Oreamnos americanus) was an "exotic" and removed the population, killing many. In Arizona, wild horses (Cutesy horsey) are equally "exotic," but they are beloved animal groups, (though not by the farmers whose fences they break) who would most vigorously oppose their removal/destruction, and the government makes money by auctioning culls each year, so unlike the goats, they are not really "exotic" or "pests" after all.

Recently, I wondered about how little chitin is passed by a mantis after a steady diet of bees and tried to find out about their use of chitinase aside from molting. There are lots of references in recent scholarly articles, but everyone I have seen concerns using the enzyme to destroy an insect's perotrophic membrane (matrix) and so kill it.

This trend is universal. In the blurb to an elementary college text,_ Insects: An Outline of Entomology_ by Gullan and Cranston, we are promised that "Special consideration is given to...pest management," so the protoentomologists learn their true purpose in the cradle. Perhaps members like Chun and Hypoponera, with real experience in the field, can paint a brighter picture; if so, I should like to see it.

So keep the faith, Christian, and do what you do because you enjoy it. It won't bring you money and it won't bring you fame, but you'll sleep well.


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## jacksun (Jun 22, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> I don't know whether you can find this at your university, Jacksun (I very much doubt it), but if you have tried the German Amazon site you will have found the pessimistic, "Derzeit nicht verfügbar." And under that, the even more pessimistic,"Ob und wann dieser Artikel wieder vorrätig sein wird, ist unbekannt." Your German must be a lot better than mine; I can manage bread and butter stuff like this, but not technical writing. I think that even Mija, with her formidable command of languages, uses a scientific dictionary in French, German and English, none of which is her native language.


Phil, I speak very little German, I can say hello, how are you, a few others and ask if they speak english. I am hoping somewhere with a good Entomology program has an english translation in ebook or hardcopy form of this text.

If I find one I will let you know, but I fear my efforts will be to no avail.

Wayne


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## chun (Jun 22, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> No sir. Europe is the last bastion of true ecology whether in entomology or other fields of zoology. The countries where agriculture is practiced on a large scale, including the US, Australia, and parts of S. America and Africa seem to have one purpose in ecological and physiological study -- how to kill anything that is a "pest." This trend is universal. In the blurb to an elementary college text,_ Insects: An Outline of Entomology_ by Gullan and Cranston, we are promised that "Special consideration is given to...pest management," so the protoentomologists learn their true purpose in the cradle. Perhaps members like Chun and Hypoponera, with real experience in the field, can paint a brighter picture; if so, I should like to see it.


By qualification i am an applied entomologist, however, i can see myself in a dead end office job working as some sort of data analyst this summer due to the lack of opportunities and money available for graduates in the UK. The cliche "do what you truly enjoy because money is not as important" is beginning to lose its value and appeal a little bit, especially with my accumulating debts. There's not enough appreciation for ecologists in this world right now, ah well, i guess i can always sell my soul to Monsanto :lol: 

dont let me put anyone off wanting to be an ecologist, it has been highly rewarding studying and trying to develop a career form it albeit not financially.


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## tier (Jun 22, 2009)

Hi Wayne

Here they have some left I guess,

regards

http://www.herpetobuch.com/index.html?wirb..._wirbellose.htm


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## jacksun (Jun 22, 2009)

tier said:


> Hi WayneHere they have some left I guess,
> 
> regards
> 
> http://www.herpetobuch.com/index.html?wirb..._wirbellose.htm


Thanks Tier, unfortunately I need an english translation. My german is minimal at best. I may have to buy the german version for the templates and the like if I can't find a translated version.

Cheers,

Wayne


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