# Hello! n00b with Tenodera sinensis L1s



## mmcguffi (Jun 27, 2013)

Hey guys! One of my chinese mantis ooths just hatched 2 days ago and Im in need of some direction!

I let the vast majority of them go (in Michigan) but I have 3 small mason jars (~16 oz or less) that I have some in. The jars have live moss substrate, plenty of small twigs and such for vertical surfaces, and there are about 5-8 mantids in each jar. I probably should have less in each right? It's just hard to only put a few in when you have so many!

Also I have a couple cultures of D. hydei -- are these too large for my L1 nymphs? Ignorantly, I put some ffs in on day 1 with the mantids. Im not sure if they have touched them yet (I dont believe so). I have one jar that the mantids haven't been given any ffs yet and I was thinking about giving them ffs today or tomorrow.

And last question -- I plan on ultimately keeping 3-4 adults. What is the minimum sized container I can keep each in? I would like to eventually construct some mantis-condos out of acrylic.

Thanks and Im excited to be a part of this community! :sorcerer:


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## vonmehr (Jun 27, 2013)

I was in your shoes not two weeks ago. It's late in the week to order smaller fruit fly cultures. You may find someone willing to overnight, but you'd have to act fast. (You would also have to find someone selling a well started culture. New ones take about 10 days to start producing). My advice is find a PetCo near you and pick up a culture or two of Melanogaster fruit flies. They're smaller than Hydei. I would call ahead to make sure they have it in stock as well as verify that they're alive. I ran into a bit of a pickle with this. It was my 4th Petco that had good cultures.

Chinese are a voracious species, so they will be prone to cannibalism. You'd be better off separating them sooner rather than later. Rebecca (mantidpets.com) has a good stock of deli cups that you can house them in as nymphs until you get or build better enclosures for them. Rule of thumb for size is 3x their length in height and 2x their length in width. Have fun with it too. I've really enjoyed making some nice enclosures for some of my older mantids. One of the great things is that they can really be done on the cheap. Check out the Housing section of the forum for some cool and inventive ideas.


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## mmcguffi (Jun 27, 2013)

Do I absolutely need to use melanogaster? From searching the forums it seems that I might be able use hydei for L1 T. sinensis?

​And Im fine with some cannibalism as long as I end up with 3-4 mantids! I just dont want to have them all die for whatever reason.

And actually I just read your thread! I might have to pick up some more "exotic" mantids!


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## vonmehr (Jun 27, 2013)

I tried hydei with a small batch, but they were untouched. That isn't to say they won't eat it. Just that it is safer to give them melanogaster as they will be more likely to grab that than run away from it. That's just my experience though. I'm new to this, so I'd love to hear some other opinions.


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## sally (Jun 27, 2013)

Welcome


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## hibiscusmile (Jun 27, 2013)

Doesn't hurt to try, but don't put to many in till u see how they do.


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## mantidsaresweet (Jun 28, 2013)

Hydei are fine with L1 T. sinensis. I've had a couple ooths hatch this summer and all my L1s love the hydei FF. You just have to give 3 days or so. Also you should mist them at this time too as they will love some of that delicious water.

If kept together this species will definitely eat each other. I would try to split them up if you could cause the biggest problem with this species is that first molt from L1 to L2. Keeping a higher number will give you a better chance of getting the number you want in case of mismolts. They could all make it and then you could just let a few more go.

Just mist them every few days, feed every other day or so, and keep an eye out for molting signs then let them do their thing and hope they make it lol.

Good luck!!


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## mmcguffi (Jun 28, 2013)

So indeed they are gobbling up the hydei. I suppose it just took about 3 days before they developed the urge to eat

I tried to grab a picture, but my house actually doesnt have any power right now and it's super cloudy outside! Because of the lack of good light I cant grab a decent macro of these dudes going to town lol. They seem to have a little trouble catching them, but eventually they get a good strike in.

Also I think I am going to separate them a little more because Im thinking I ideally want to end up with 2 females 1 male.

Thanks for the input everyone!


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## minomantis (Jun 29, 2013)

First congrats on the hatching! Chinese mantids are a great mantis and are very interesting to watch for there voracioius appetites, curiosity in a set up, ability to change color right after a molt, and their overall size! But just like the fellow members said before me, I think 5-8 is pushing it in a small mason jar. These guys are not afraid to take each other out so I would advise you to make your numbers just a little smaller and who knows, maybe when August rolls around, you'll find a couple around your house that you can breed together!

I would say the biggest thing that I have learned from raising mantids is patience. It's very easy to see your mantids not eating you take the food out for a day or two thinking they are going to molt and they were just full and there is two days wasted from feeding. So patience is with mantids is essential! As for feeding, I would try new things. My L1's have surprised me with taking down moths, hoverflies, and leafhoppers so I think big FF's are ok for them! Have fun!


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## mmcguffi (Jun 30, 2013)

So I havent had time to separate them yet but Im going to do that in a min

However, one of the jars is full of completely dead mantises. Ive put some hydei in there and over time they disappeared so I assume they've eaten so I dont really know what's up. Perhaps the holes are too big and the hydei escaped that way and they starved?

There are a few more dead in the other jars too -- any ideas?


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## sally (Jun 30, 2013)

Is there enough ventilation? I feel the 32 ounce deli cups with the material on the lids with small sticks hotglued to the lid and sides works well. There is a thread on making nymph cups in the housing forum.


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## mmcguffi (Jun 30, 2013)

Huh, I didnt consider ventilation. Thanks for the tip!

I checked out some nymph cup thread and they indeed have much more ventilation than my current set up (I only have about 5 or so pin-sized holes in the metal top). I guess for now Im just going to add about 20+ more pinholes to the tops

After going through each my jars and redistributing, I now have two jars with 2 mantids and one jar with 3 mantids -- that's a lot of die-off! In each I currently have an equal ratio of hydei:mantis in them. I also put some drops of water in each jar.

Any more tips are certainly welcome!


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## mmcguffi (Jul 2, 2013)

two more dead in the same jar  that means Im down to 4 nymphs

any ideas what Im doing wrong? these guys are definitely eating the FFs

I see some mold in one of the jars I made (that one didnt actually have any mantids in it though -- just an extra). Could mold be the culprit? Should I just ditch the live moss substrate and go for a deli cup/excelsior dealio?


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## minomantis (Jul 2, 2013)

Check if the dead ones have heads because I've noticed with chinese mantids they will sometimes just eat the heads and drop the rest of the body on the bottom. But maybe you're culprit is ventilation still? Mold likes damp places so maybe there needs to be more air flow.

If I were you I would get some styrofoam cups, fold up a paper towel and place it at the bottom and dampen it with water, use a toothpick and poke holes all around it and you can use saran wrap for the top and use a rubber band to keep it in place. Nice cheap way to keep them safe and alive. You can improvise with this or create your own but something along the lines would be good for you I think. That's what I do and it works nicely!


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## sally (Jul 2, 2013)

I always use the deli cups with paper towels on the bottom. I am doing nymph cups today, but I am putting mesh on the side for ventilation now with hot glue. I love the housing threads so many great ideas for nymph care . I would not use a lid with only pin holes in it though, mesh screen or nymph lids, but that is just my opinion, I Am new also.


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## mmcguffi (Jul 4, 2013)

Down to 3 nymphs! The corpses arent decapitated so I think that means ventilation is the culprit. I see/smell a little more mold

I took out all of the live moss, scrubbed the jars down, put moist paper towel in the bottom &amp; replaced the sticks, and replaced the lids with mesh/rubber bands. I'm hoping this should finally suffice! Thankfully they are still wolfing down the hydei so I don't have to worry about that.

Thanks for all the advice!


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## minomantis (Jul 4, 2013)

No problem! Hope they all survive! Keep us updated!


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## mmcguffi (Jul 5, 2013)

Well, down to 2 mantids. I guess for one of them it was too little too late. This is really bummin me out! I'm usually very good at care for my animals and it's super disappointing to see so many of them die!!

Gah! I just hope these last two make it. I want to explore more exotic species but I can't even manage T. Sinensis!


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## sally (Jul 5, 2013)

Don't be to hard on yourself. T.sinensis have a very high mortality rate at early instars.


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## Ranitomeya (Jul 5, 2013)

There's a tendency for there to be many more offspring produced than will reach maturity in most organisms and if the number of nymphs that are produced in just one _Tenodera sinensis_ ootheca suggests anything, it is that this species has adapted to high offspring mortality by producing many more offspring than are expected to survive. You shouldn't be too hard on yourself considering it's your first time rearing mantids from oothecae especially with a species known to have high nymph mortality rates.


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## mmcguffi (Jul 11, 2013)

Well, sadly I had a mis-molt on one of my last two mantids so that brings me down to one. Good news is that s/he seems really healthy! I can't tell if s/he's L2 or L3

And! In other news my other ooth hatched today so this time I can apply what I've learned so I dont commit mass mantid genocide again :stuart:


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