# Very small Chinese...?



## sporeworld (Dec 4, 2009)

Hey, guys!

Someone brought me a mantis that looks very similar to a Chinese female (long and slender), but less than half the size. Also, her wings only go about 2/3 the way down her back. There's also that slight color variance on the edges of the wings.

The ooth she laid looked like a 1/2 size version of my Carolina's (not all foamy like the Europeans). I didn't allow her to mate while with me, but about 12 nymphs popped out of her ooth anyway (presumably, she mated before I got her).

Is this a different species, or just a much smaller, odd sample of a Chinese...?

Mark


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## Katnapper (Dec 5, 2009)

Are you sure she's not an_ S. carolina_ that just laid a small ooth?


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## Rick (Dec 5, 2009)

Looks like a european mantis in that pic. A better pic may be needed and a pic of the ooth.


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## sbugir (Dec 5, 2009)

Rick said:


> Looks like a european mantis in that pic. A better pic may be needed and a pic of the ooth.


+1


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## Ntsees (Dec 5, 2009)

This is something that I cannot pass by. The way you described the mantid and it's ooth, the form of the mantid, the way the mantid is colored on the body parts - looks like the species that I raise. Check it's hind underwings. It should have some yellow, orange, and a big black spot fading outwards from the center. There's a very high probability that it's a Mediterranean mantid (_Iris oratoria_).

Also, where are you located? I'm guessing you're somewhere in the Western U.S.?


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## ismart (Dec 5, 2009)

That is an _Iris oatoriar_.


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## sporeworld (Dec 5, 2009)

Man, you guys are GOOD! Iris oratoria it is!

I checked online and found several pics that match my lil baby exactly! Very nice work.

I'm, in Los Angeles, and I've had people bringing me mantids from their gardens for a decade now (once people know you're into this kind of thing they just keep on comin...). This is the first time I've seen this species.

And wikipedia says, "...this species is capable of parthenogenic reproduction when males are scarce...". That is SO very cool!

Thanks again, guys!

Mark


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## massaman (Dec 5, 2009)

dont hold your breath on it laying ooths that can hatchwithout mating as wikipedia can be wrong on this instance and has been on other things!


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## sporeworld (Dec 5, 2009)

Ha, ha! That's probably true. Her first ooth DID hatch out about a dozen lil nymphs (so far), which is more exciting now in light of the POSSIBILITY of parthenogenesis. You know, a boy can dream...

Mark


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## Ntsees (Dec 5, 2009)

Sporeworld said:


> ...I'm, in Los Angeles, and I've had people bringing me mantids from their gardens for a decade now (once people know you're into this kind of thing they just keep on comin...). This is the first time I've seen this species....


Ok. As far as I know so far, _Iris oratoria _is in the Western states. I was asking your location because I want to know where else besides the West that this exotic species has become naturalized (that doesn't mean that people should go releasing them because you shouldn't do that). Anyways, we're glad we can help identify.


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 5, 2009)

massaman said:


> dont hold your breath on it laying ooths that can hatchwithout mating as wikipedia can be wrong on this instance and has been on other things!


Look before you leap, Massaman!  

Parthenogenesis is pretty well documented in I. oratorio, Sporemen, c.f. http://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2005/Projects/S1906.pdf

If they are parthenogenic, they will all be females in this species, but the odds favor yr female having been inseminated prior to capture.


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## ZoeRipper (Dec 5, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Look before you leap, Massaman!  Parthenogenesis is pretty well documented in I. oratorio, Sporemen, c.f. http://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2005/Projects/S1906.pdf
> 
> If they are parthenogenic, they will all be females in this species, but the odds favor yr female having been inseminated prior to capture.


Phil, are you Jesus?

You know EVERYTHING!

Plus that article was extremely interesting, I read the whole thing


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## PhilinYuma (Dec 5, 2009)

ZoeRipper said:


> Phil, are you Jesus?You know EVERYTHING!
> 
> Plus that article was extremely interesting, I read the whole thing


Oops, Zoe! I had some quick explaining to do there! I am but a humble servant of the Great Mantis Goddess (Blessed be Her Name) who shares at least one thing with the Other Guy: "I am a jealous God...." (Deuteronomy 5:8-9), but I made it quite clear that It Wasn't Yr Fault because I hadn't mentioned Her recently.

An extra, nice thing about that article is that it was written by a California H.S. student for the state's annual Science Fair. He was mentored by two professors from University of California, Riverside, so the article is pretty credible. Glad you liked it!


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## sporeworld (Dec 5, 2009)

Again, wow.

I'm glad I posted. I had no idea we had other local mantids in Los Angeles besides, Carolina, European and Chinese. Time to start google searching...



Ntsees - you've been raising this species for 12 years...? Why THIS species in particular...?

Mark


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## Ntsees (Dec 6, 2009)

Sporeworld said:


> Again, wow.I'm glad I posted. I had no idea we had other local mantids in Los Angeles besides, Carolina, European and Chinese. Time to start google searching...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Iris oratoria_ was my first mantid species and the only mantid I raise because, although they are not native to the U.S., it's so common where I am. I also happen to like their wing coloration/pattern. Someday, I might raise other mantid species though.

One thing. There shouldn't be any Carolina mantids in the Western states since that species is native to the Eastern U.S. I'm going to guess that you meant to say Bordered mantid (_Stagmomantis limbata_). But with transportation of many things, it is possible that some may have been introduced to the West.

Since you're in the West, try to keep an eye out for the California mantid (_Stagmomantis californica_) because there are quite a few people here, myself included, who want them. It's a Bordered mantid with purple/red/black underwings.


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## Rick (Dec 6, 2009)

Forgot all about the Iris. Not the greatest pic you posted. It still looks kinda like a european mantis, but since the poster compared his to the pics of the Iris then I am sure that is what it is.


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## sporeworld (Dec 6, 2009)

Yeah, I get the limbata here a lot, but not sure about the California. Any other obvious differences besides the wing color...? They look to have about the same body shape...

And it's for sure not a European - I always look for the eye spots on the arms first. I've got 2 of those right now.

Mark


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## Ntsees (Dec 7, 2009)

Sporeworld said:


> ...Any other obvious differences besides the wing color...? They look to have about the same body shape....


Since I've never seen one so far, that's the only differentiation that I'd use based on seeing pictures on the web and the discussions we've had on the forum. Other than that, they look very similar to the limbata mantid.


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## sporeworld (Dec 11, 2009)

Hey, Ntsees...

You said you raise this species - can they be kept communally...? Seems unlikely...

Mark


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## Peter Clausen (Dec 11, 2009)

If it was wild caught as an adult, chances are it was already fertilized.


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## Ntsees (Dec 11, 2009)

Sporeworld said:


> Hey, Ntsees...You said you raise this species - can they be kept communally...? Seems unlikely...
> 
> Mark


Sometimes yes and mostly no. If you keep them together in the first few instars, some will eat each other. In mid to higher level instars, they tend to eat the smaller siblings that are lagging behind or those that have just molted (soft and delicious). Mantids of the same size will tend to not bother each other as well as those that are bulging fat. Those that have just molted to the adult stage will all live together peacefully until egg development. After that point, they shouldn't be put together (especially after one has just laid an ooth). To be on the safe side, separate them whenever you feel like it or make sure every single one is full to reduce cannibalism. Don't wait too long otherwise you'll end up like me and get 1 male and 8 females (it was partly due to my fault because I couldn't feed them as much as I should - not enough time). When I'm able to tell the males from females, I usually start separating the ones that I want to make sure that I have at least a pair when they all reach adulthood.

Just to let you know, this is from just my experience and others may differ.


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## sporeworld (Dec 11, 2009)

Makes perfect sense.

I tend to hand-feed all my bigger babbies, anyway (except when I had 120 adult Chinese - holy ######!). So if I DO keep these guys successfully, I'll experiment with the communal thing and just take out the laggers and runts.

Thanks!

Mark


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## MantidLord (Dec 12, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> Sometimes yes and mostly no. If you keep them together in the first few instars, some will eat each other. In mid to higher level instars, they tend to eat the smaller siblings that are lagging behind or those that have just molted (soft and delicious). Mantids of the same size will tend to not bother each other as well as those that are bulging fat. Those that have just molted to the adult stage will all live together peacefully until egg development. After that point, they shouldn't be put together (especially after one has just laid an ooth). To be on the safe side, separate them whenever you feel like it or make sure every single one is full to reduce cannibalism. Don't wait too long otherwise you'll end up like me and get 1 male and 8 females (it was partly due to my fault because I couldn't feed them as much as I should - not enough time). When I'm able to tell the males from females, I usually start separating the ones that I want to make sure that I have at least a pair when they all reach adulthood.Just to let you know, this is from just my experience and others may differ.


I pretty much agree. I keep my hatchlings together until about L3 or L4. Then I separate them for good. Though I have kept up to five adult females together and had them laying ooths until they'd died of old age. Not saying to put them together, but it is possible. The adult males however, I've never experienced cannibalism between them. In my experience, they're less cannibalistic than M. religiosa.

@Sporeworld: even mantids of the same size can and often will fall prey to their "peers". Just be careful.


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## Ntsees (Dec 12, 2009)

MantidLord said:


> Though I have kept up to five adult females together and had them laying ooths until they'd died of old age....


Interesting. I've have thought about it but never tried it because I didn't want to risk it. But with your experience, I can see that it is very possible as long as they are fed well (which may be the problem for me because I don't have all the time in the world). Ok.


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## MantidLord (Dec 13, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> Interesting. I've have thought about it but never tried it because I didn't want to risk it. But with your experience, I can see that it is very possible as long as they are fed well (which may be the problem for me because I don't have all the time in the world). Ok.


Well actually, the reason why I put them together in the first place is because it was getting harder for me to get food (back when I was catching and not buying crix). I put them together to try and "lighten the load"  . But they never ate each other and I ended up having to feed them all anyway &lt;_&lt; . But I just decided to keep them together.


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## sporeworld (Dec 15, 2009)

I think I forgot to reply properly, but "yeah", I've got "Stagmomantis limbata", not Carolina (all green underwings - no pretty colors). And now SHE's got little ones crawling around, too (I missed an ooth, apparently). Sigh.

I'll keep my eye out for Bordered Mantids in the summer...

Cheers!

Mark


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## Ntsees (Dec 15, 2009)

Sporeworld said:


> ...I've got "Stagmomantis limbata", not Carolina (all green underwings - no pretty colors)....


Nice, you got nymphs. Anyways, from past discussions on this forum, it appears that the Bordered and Carolina mantids look very similar. They can have similar markings (i.e. banded tibia) and their underwings appear to be very similar too (~yellowish). The difference is the black speck that appears on the forewing. The Carolina's have that black speck but the Bordered mantid doesn't.


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## MantidLord (Dec 16, 2009)

Sporeworld said:


> I'll keep my eye out for Bordered Mantids in the summer...Cheers!
> 
> Mark


Congratulations. You do realize that "bordered mantids" are S. limbata right?  Unless your describing the elusive California, then ignore me.


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