# Hierodula identification



## Jackson (Apr 30, 2006)

Hey,

I bought some mantids at the start of the month as Hierodula Sp. The breeder was 90% sure they were Membrecena, looking at them now it looks like i have 3 males and no females so i need a definate ID on them.

These mantids look just like patifella but on the sides of the throat (like shield) its looks like a dark pink/burgundt colour...Is this natural of the Membrecena species? I'll try to post some pics tommorow.

Cheers, Jackson


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## julian camilo (Apr 30, 2006)

you probably mean hierodula membranacea. i dont know anything about them, but yeh just thought id let you know the correct spelling in case you want to google it or look it up in the databse: http://ttwebbase.dyndns.org/


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## nympho (Apr 30, 2006)

I was going to post a similar question. I have some Hierodula grandis nymphs and was wondering how they can be distinguised from the similar Hierodula Membrenacea species. Are there features that can be used for a positive ID? And has anyone tried crossing them and seeing if the offspring are fertile - the mark of a single true species.


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## Jackson (May 2, 2006)

Anyone else at all?.....Ian? Rick? Yen?

I'll try to distinguish in the pics on the database later.


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## Christian (May 2, 2006)

Hi.

I really doubt the real _grandis_ is in stock. Probably there are only _membranacea_. It is very likely that someone once invented the name in order to sell his specimens better. Unfortunately, there really exists a species named _H. grandis_, so that's where the whole thing is supposed to come from.

If you are not sure, send the specimens to someone who may identify them. I proposed this some time ago for that red-leg-_Sphodromantis-_thing and did not see any dead specimen until today. I need just dead ones, dried or in alcohol, so it simply depends on you... :wink:

Regards,

Christian


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## nympho (May 2, 2006)

ok Christian; when (or if) i get an adult one i'll send it. i have some from two different sources so you may have to ID two. they are still small so it may be a while.


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## Christian (May 2, 2006)

That's no problem. Just tell me when they're ready, that is... dead.  

Regards

Christian


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## 13ollox (May 2, 2006)

so christian , what exactly are the differences between each species ? if you give me an answer i'll check my grandis to actually see if they are grandis, i dont really want to wait till they dead !

thanks

Neil


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## nympho (May 2, 2006)

hey neil. do your mantids have two rows of small dots on the dorsal surface (thats top 8) ) of the abdomen. cant really see any other features apart from a faint dark splodge on the outside of their 'fore-arms'.

mine are about L4, about 5cm long.


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## 13ollox (May 2, 2006)

mine are about 4cm long .. and no rows of dark spots on the top but there seems to be 2 rows of faint yellowy spots and no dark splodge on forearms !


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## Christian (May 2, 2006)

Hi.

The differences between closely related _Hierodula_ species aren't easy to see. It concerns the shape and the number of spines on the fore-coxae, the shape of the clypeus (frontal sclerite), the length of the hind metatarsus, the color of the internal spines, the male genitalia, and so on. It is really not possible to determine them without specimens at hand. As long as you do not know the species, please use _Hierodula_ spec. or _Hierodula_ cf. _membranacea_ (that means "species resembling _membranacea_) rather than a fictive name.

Regards,

Christian


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## 13ollox (May 2, 2006)

the only reason i ask is because i got 2 females and thursday should be recieving some males from ian and as it will be 1st time at attempting mating when they mature i want to know if i got the right species .. but as you said probaly Grandis isnt even in stock ! so in that case i guess i shudnt really be concerned ??? also . christian .. how the heck do you know so much!!! im having trouble learning the latin names and you basically know em all as well as everything else about every species !!! is there a secret to your success


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## Sheldon Johnson (May 2, 2006)

Chances are that if its within the UK then its bred from the same lineage. Dont worry about it.

As for learning, learn by doing, thats how im learning coding... with my new super secret mantis project.


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## 13ollox (May 2, 2006)

kool thanks ... so are yours definate " Grandis " like your thing says ? or were yours sold to you as " Grandis " like mine was on both occasions !


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## Tapos (May 2, 2006)

i had grandis from Deshawn and Mem. from a calif. breeder. they were about 2 weeks apart in age, and all the way through i was able to tell them apart. by using the marking pen label on the lids of their containers. lol The Mem. females seemed to have larger red segments on the bottom of their abdomens, but everything else was the same.


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## 13ollox (May 3, 2006)

thats where my ones from ian are coming from , the states . so im kinda concernerned ive just wasted some money on a species i cant mate with my females !

thanks

Neil


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## Sheldon Johnson (May 3, 2006)

Well if theyre from the states, then chances are they are *cough "grandis" cough* This is because about 18 months ago i sold some breeders and deshawn about 20+ "grandis" ooths, and he then flooded the market with them.

Also the "grandis" circulating the UK at the moment i beleive are still the same strain. To be hoenst, we need some new blood and deffinate IDs.

Regardless its liek christian said, its quite a high chance theat they were miss labled as grandis and are just membrenacea.

Still fear not good people, all of these problems will be addressed in my super secret project!


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## 13ollox (May 3, 2006)

haha , you got me all exited now sheldon. and thanks for the reassurance about the whole thing . if they get jiggy and get some fertile oothca i'll know they were the same species ! if not .. would have been another learning experiance ! will your secret project take long ?

Neil


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## Sheldon Johnson (May 3, 2006)

Attempt mating the female twice before she drops an ooth (just to make sure). Stop feeding her as much for the next 4-6 weeks or until the ootheca hatches. If it hatches, just start feeding her regulary again. If it doesnt hatch after 6 weeks consuider buying another male. Because you have slowed her metabolism, she probably wont drop another ooth until after those 6 weeks, so if you get a new male fast enough you can get her mated, ready for her second ooth.

As for my super secret project, all i can say is that its all in the pipe line and it may take all summer to complete, but trust me when i say its going to be worth it!


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## 13ollox (May 3, 2006)

Ive got 2 females anyway . and 2 males arriving . so i can try the other male i guess .. but it probs will be succesful anyway. thanks ! look forward to the unveiling of your super secret project !

thanks

Neil


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## yen_saw (May 4, 2006)

Ah bummer... is this a Grandis or Membranecea? I receive the ooth from Denmark and raise them to subadult now. This is is probably a male sub-subadult.


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## 13ollox (May 4, 2006)

thats exactly what mine look like  . christian says there isnt a tell tale sign without him actually checking a dead specimen " The differences between closely related Hierodula species aren't easy to see. It concerns the shape and the number of spines on the fore-coxae, the shape of the clypeus (frontal sclerite), the length of the hind metatarsus, the color of the internal spines, the male genitalia, and so on. It is really not possible to determine them without specimens at hand " and also that " Grandis " probaly isnt even in stock anyway and was made up to sell "Membrancea" better ! but that does look exactly like mine !

BTW . nice mantis yen !

Neil


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## Jackson (May 4, 2006)

Yen, Mine look the same as that aswell and they were labelled as Hierodula Sp.

The 2 Grandis i had before didn't have any red down the sides of them, just pure green. And i am pretty certain they were grandis, i picked them up from a garden centre that sheldon or ian had sold them to.


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## Christian (May 5, 2006)

Hi.

Now the reddish tinge on the side is not important. It's like the green/brown switch between different instars, or may be characteristic for a certain stock. Regarding the coxae, I would say it is a membranacea. It's not sure from a photo, just an opinion, particularly as the specimen is not adult yet.

Regards,

Christian


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## nympho (May 17, 2006)

> It's like the green/brown switch between different instars


mine went from green to brown, about L3/4. I thought it was due to the surroundings. are you suggesting the change is genetic and if so can they go green again?


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## Christian (May 17, 2006)

Hi.

The change is not genetically determined, but environmentally. Just the ability to switch between a green and a brown phase is due to genetical reasons.

Regards,

Christian


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