# Understanding oogenesis, laying intervals, time to first ootheca



## kamakiri (Oct 7, 2009)

Since I'm in the process of burying myself in ooths this season, I've had a chance to see what appears to generally affect when a female will lay. My limited experience with just a handful of species points out some possible differences in triggers, and certainly different timing. Of course, different ooth sizes should take different times and intervals. I'd like to explore the reasons.

As a process, I think these are some of the events that make ooth laying possible:

1. Start of oogenesis

The difficult part of this phase is that we can't really observe when it starts. It is my feeling that when most females are fed, that they will make and store eggs to capacity. I suspect this may not be true of ghosts, which I am guessing make the eggs after mating. More on that later.

2. Time and energy for oogenesis

It is fairly well known that larger species that make larger ooths take longer intervals than smaller species and smaller or fewer egg oothecae. For species I am currently keeping the numbers vary from 150+ (_S.limbata_) down to 5 or so (_P. virescens_) and even individual eggs (_I. oratoria_). It appears that ovaries have a relatively fixed capacity for production. Given enough food, this should be able to be expressed as eggs per day average. Based on the hatchings and intervals, it appears _ S. limbata_ should be making roughly 4-7 eggs per day and _P. virescens_ roughly 2-3.

Examples that support oogenesis beforehand are that an older heavier unmated female can lay the next day after mating. I have seen this happen with both _S. limbata_ and_ P. virescens_. Conversely, a younger thin female, can still be mated, but will not lay until adult for more than the typical interval before laying. Otherwise, the time to lay fertile oothecae from adulthood is relatively consistent for a given species.

3. Mating and availability of sperm

We know that some species will still lay ooths even if not mated and not parthenogenic. It seems that laying such an infertile ooth is done so out of necessity. If a female makes eggs even unmated, then there will come a time that she is not able to store any more, and is essentially purging to make room for the eggs to come.

I believe mating is a possible trigger to oogenesis, as I suspect with ghosts based on the interval observed on two specimens after mating. The two did not lay infertile ooths, though well fed and relatively fat. I'll have to study that further with ghosts, or perhaps someone with more experience with them could chime in. Or if there examples of ghosts making infertile ooths. Otherwise, it may just be that the females can store eggs for a limited time. But there appears to be a strategy to hold-off from infertile laying as long as possible, since the time to lay infertile is usually longer than the typical interval. Refusal of food may preclude continuous oogenesis and may further this strategy.

Please chime in with your thoughts and examples.


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## Rick (Oct 7, 2009)

Good stuff but I think it would need much more research to be conclusive.


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## Ntsees (Oct 7, 2009)

I agree with most of the things you stated as I have witnessed it myself in my experience. But there are gray areas and so there is not an exact ~rule.


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## kamakiri (Oct 8, 2009)

Rick said:


> Good stuff but I think it would need much more research to be conclusive.


I completely agree that I need to more research and observation. I'm hoping others can keep these ideas in mind and report on their own mantises.


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## yen_saw (Oct 9, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Since I'm in the process of burying myself in ooths this season, I've had a chance to see what appears to generally affect when a female will lay. My limited experience with just a handful of species points out some possible differences in triggers, and certainly different timing. Of course, different ooth sizes should take different times and intervals. I'd like to explore the reasons.As a process, I think these are some of the events that make ooth laying possible:
> 
> 1. Start of oogenesis
> 
> ...


Just my 2 cents

1. Agree. My experience with ghost is different though. My mantis are heavily fed usually. My ghost female will deposit ootheca in as little as 3 weeks if I don't find her a mate to pair up with.

2. Time and energy for oogenesis is very much depending on food supply and temperature. From my experience, a mated female will take a longer time to produce a smaller than average ootheca when underfed, while the one with plenty of food and heat are able to produce larger ootheca in less time in between two ootheca.

3. Yeah i agree, the adult female appear to suffer complication of egg bound if not purging out the eggs through ootheca. Ghost mantis produce oothecae pretty often, and i have seen ootheca of different sizes and different hatchng rate in between.


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## kamakiri (Oct 13, 2009)

yen_saw said:


> Just my 2 cents1. Agree. My experience with ghost is different though. My mantis are heavily fed usually. My ghost female will deposit ootheca in as little as 3 weeks if I don't find her a mate to pair up with.
> 
> 2. Time and energy for oogenesis is very much depending on food supply and temperature. From my experience, a mated female will take a longer time to produce a smaller than average ootheca when underfed, while the one with plenty of food and heat are able to produce larger ootheca in less time in between two ootheca.
> 
> 3. Yeah i agree, the adult female appear to suffer complication of egg bound if not purging out the eggs through ootheca. Ghost mantis produce oothecae pretty often, and i have seen ootheca of different sizes and different hatchng rate in between.


Yen, thanks for adding the temperature to the time and energy consideration. It seems that even just slightly cooler temps has extended a fairly consistent 5 or 6 day interval to 7 days with one female (Liana). I wouldn't be surprised if the same extension in interval occurs with her sister (BatGirl).


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## AmandaLynn (Nov 14, 2009)

My ghosts finally mated successfully on Wed. 11/11, and today, Sat. 11/14, the female laid her first ooth! She didnt' seem fat enough, but her ooth is a little under two inches long, which I think is a decent size. Just wanted to share.


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## kamakiri (Nov 14, 2009)

AmandaLynn said:


> My ghosts finally mated successfully on Wed. 11/11, and today, Sat. 11/14, the female laid her first ooth! She didnt' seem fat enough, but her ooth is a little under two inches long, which I think is a decent size. Just wanted to share.


Thanks for sharing! What temps do you keep her at? Please update when she makes her second ooth.


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## AmandaLynn (Nov 14, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Thanks for sharing! What temps do you keep her at? Please update when she makes her second ooth.


Will do.  I've been keeping the temps around 80F during the day and 70 at night.


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## cloud jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

I had a really rough time with my s. limbata females this year. Out of five (all pink and all mated after 2 weeks) 2 died without laying an ooth a couple of days and 2 weeks after mating, respectively. One died right after laying her first ooth!

I am wondering if i mated them too early or what? It seemed odd to me as they all seemed so healthy then - plop, dead!

I am wondering if the pink morph ones are just weaker or crappy oothers or something.


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## kamakiri (Nov 15, 2009)

Arkanis said:


> I had a really rough time with my s. limbata females this year. Out of five (all pink and all mated after 2 weeks) 2 died without laying an ooth a couple of days and 2 weeks after mating, respectively. One died right after laying her first ooth!I am wondering if i mated them too early or what? It seemed odd to me as they all seemed so healthy then - plop, dead!
> 
> I am wondering if the pink morph ones are just weaker or crappy oothers or something.


Sorry to hear about the untimely deaths.  It does sound a lot like the problem we were both having earlier in the year. For me, that was before I was misting the limbata at all. My current batch(es) of limbata have had next to no casualties...just one from what appears to have been an injury due to a fall where the abdomen was punctured by the 'ladder' plastic grid I use. She died after a week and a half of not eating, and maybe a localized infection or necrosis at the injury site. She was immediately frozen and is one of the mantises to be sent to Yen for his Stagmomantis study. The rest of the two dozen+ limbata females (w.c. and c.b.) have been busy making ooths. I just released two of the females back to the (secret) garden who had just made their 3rd ooths while in my care. Maybe it has been too cold for them in the house? I've been raising the temps in the bug room just to keep mid-low 70's during the day.

Now that I'm keeping several of the pink, tan, and yellow morphs, I don't think there's any evidence that they're weaker with the ones I have now.


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