# What is Angel's gender?



## JoeCapricorn (Feb 4, 2010)

I took pictures of Angel's abdomen from the side and from the bottom to show how different the bottom looks than the side. S/He is an L7 Sphodromantis centralis.












Now, I also modified these pictures with red lines (and some humor) to show where the division between the segments are from my point of view. The confusion is because directly on the bottom it appears there are only six segments. From the sides and top, there appear to be eight. There is a very slight border between the last two segments, so it's still confusing me about what Angel's gender is.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c47/JoeC...elsbuttside.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c47/JoeC...lbuttbottom.jpg

Also, there are other pictures of Angel generally being cute:





















Angel has grown from the size of like a mosquito to this... and still has some growing to do.


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## bassist (Feb 4, 2010)

Looks more like a _Hierodula _to me but I could be wrong.


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## JoeCapricorn (Feb 4, 2010)

I have 4 Hierodula as well, but they are L4, except for Jasper who is L5. Still much smaller than the African mantises, who I got in November.


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## hibiscusmile (Feb 4, 2010)

Looks like a little girl to me!


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## Rick (Feb 4, 2010)

With a good pic of the end of the abdomen I could tell you. From what I can see it may be male. Those are very very easy to tell gender on. Try this:

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7110


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## agent A (Feb 4, 2010)

male.


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## JoeCapricorn (Feb 4, 2010)

Rick said:


> With a good pic of the end of the abdomen I could tell you. From what I can see it may be male. Those are very very easy to tell gender on. Try this:http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7110


Those nymphs look subadult and probably about ready to molt, their wing buds are a bit expanded... Angel's wing buds are quite tiny in comparison. I think he may have two molts to go?

I'll try to get a better picture of the end of his abdomen, but not now. Or I could wait until Fortune, Kit and Meek catch up to L7... they are all still L6, although with them it's a similar situation - I have no clue.

With the Giant Asians, I just wait until they are sub-adult (or near that point) to determine their gender. For now, they are all quite tiny, even Jasper (who I believe is L5) is probably about 4/5ths of an inch long. Also, Giant Asian females have wider abdomens than the males, which are longer and the 7th and 8th segments are more proportional to the rest (although still smaller), is that the same with African mantises?


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## sbugir (Feb 4, 2010)

I'm w/ Hibiscus and say that Angel is a girl.


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## Rick (Feb 5, 2010)

JoeCapricorn said:


> Those nymphs look subadult and probably about ready to molt, their wing buds are a bit expanded... Angel's wing buds are quite tiny in comparison. I think he may have two molts to go?I'll try to get a better picture of the end of his abdomen, but not now. Or I could wait until Fortune, Kit and Meek catch up to L7... they are all still L6, although with them it's a similar situation - I have no clue.
> 
> With the Giant Asians, I just wait until they are sub-adult (or near that point) to determine their gender. For now, they are all quite tiny, even Jasper (who I believe is L5) is probably about 4/5ths of an inch long. Also, Giant Asian females have wider abdomens than the males, which are longer and the 7th and 8th segments are more proportional to the rest (although still smaller), is that the same with African mantises?


Doesn't matter what stage they are. You can count segments at any age. No reason to wait to subadult. On these large species you can tell very very early. All females have wider abdomens but that really doesn't show up until some later stages in development and that applies to most of them. It is the same for most all of them. But it sounds like you don't really want my help.


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## ismart (Feb 5, 2010)

Looks like a female to me.


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## yen_saw (Feb 6, 2010)

I am sorry, your 'S. centralis' appear to be Hierodula. Check with your source again.


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## JoeCapricorn (Feb 7, 2010)

yen_saw said:


> I am sorry, your 'S. centralis' appear to be Hierodula. Check with your source again.


I got my S. centralis from Peter Clausen back in November. I know they are S. centralis, I also got H. membranacea from Peter in January, they are currently younger and smaller than the African mantises.

There are similarities to the two of them but I can see the differences as well. But one of the similarities is the color of the bottom of their abdomen, that dark grassy green.

The differences will become more apparent as the African mantises reach adult hood and the Giant Asians grow - the Giant Asians would be bigger than the African mantises when both are done growing, right?


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## Rick (Feb 7, 2010)

JoeCapricorn said:


> I got my S. centralis from Peter Clausen back in November. I know they are S. centralis, I also got H. membranacea from Peter in January, they are currently younger and smaller than the African mantises. There are similarities to the two of them but I can see the differences as well. But one of the similarities is the color of the bottom of their abdomen, that dark grassy green.
> 
> The differences will become more apparent as the African mantises reach adult hood and the Giant Asians grow - the Giant Asians would be bigger than the African mantises when both are done growing, right?


Yes, they will be bigger.


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## JoeCapricorn (Feb 9, 2010)

Okay... so, some searching on the internet revealed that my African mantises are more similar to H. membranacea than I previously thought.

First I came across this image on Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2055476252/

Second I looked up the image I was shown earlier about the black stripes with red spots - http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2649871252/

Third I took a picture of Meek's butt:






Needless to say there are differences between the African mantises and the Giant Asian mantises I have (or at least, the ones I think are African mantises and the ones I think are Giant Asian mantises) -

Here is a picture of Jasper:






Jasper is one of the Giant Asians, has starker markings and these two black dots on the inside of its forearm. Elbows are black, there are starker stripes on the legs. Jasper is L5 and about 4/5ths of an inch in length.

The African mantises have the same markings, except for those black dots on the inside of their forearms, and their markings are lighter. Angel is L7 and about an inch and a half, the others are L6 and slightly past an inch.

So, this presents some possibilities:

1) My Giant Asians are Giant Asians and my Africans are Africans but the resemblance is an uncanny coincidence.

2) My Africans are indeed Hierodula, possibly membranacea, and somehow got labeled as S. centralis.

3) All of my mantises are indeed the same species or same genus.

4) All of them are members of a new species, Mantis Mysteriosa.

And there are some facts:

1) They are cute! 2) They are green (except for Dio who is more of a brownish green - despite Angel, Baphomet, Nereid and Kit all being brown earlier on, they are now all green!)

3) They are going to dominate the world and usher in a new world order where humans are enslaved by mantises! Ooops, did I let that slip?


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## JoeCapricorn (Feb 9, 2010)

Okay, there is an update...

I e-mailed Peter about it and he confirmed that there might have been a "mix up"... so likely my African mantises are indeed Giant Asian mantises.

But nothing changes and I kinda find the whole situation funny. I'm also very intrigued, because this would mean that the next couple of molts for my first bunch of mantises will see them get pretty big. I see pictures of Giant Asian sub-adults near four inches long! Angel is only an inch and a half, and he's L7.

The whole point of getting mantises in the first place was so I could try raising baby mantises to adult hood. With the first-bunch of mantises, I've had a great time! They went with me all the way down to Alabama and all the way back home to Pennsylvania, along with my Eastern Lubbers Pear, Apricot and Nectarine (OJ in spirit, and Pear in spirit on the way back) - I can safely say no other pet of mine has EVER had such an epic journey with me before, except for maybe some grasshoppers I might've caught in Iowa as a kid and brought back to PA back in the days of road trips. I have 8 insects on my desk in the middle of February. There is a foot of snow on the ground, and another foot of snow due to fall this very night! School is canceled tomorrow... so that will leave me plenty of time to take pictures... and with all the snow reflecting light back into my room, the pictures should turn out very well! So, what I'm going to do with this thread is post pictures of all 8 of my mantises tomorrow. My other picture thread was for mantises I had in the past. This thread is for mantises I have *now*


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## Katnapper (Feb 10, 2010)

JoeCapricorn said:


> Okay, there is an update...I e-mailed Peter about it and he confirmed that there might have been a "mix up"... so likely my African mantises are indeed Giant Asian mantises.


Remember a while back, when Peter had an accidental hatching of 2 different species ooths in the same enclosure? I wonder if this was the event that caused this "mix-up?" :lol:


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## Rick (Feb 10, 2010)

Meek is a giant asian for sure. Those red marks on the abdomen are the give a way. I don't ever recall african mantids having those. Meek is also a male.


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