# Giant Shield mantis - Rhombodera sp.



## yen_saw

Anyone here following my website probably found out i have traded two ootheca of Rhombodera sp. recently. Well, one of it hatched the next day! But only 4 nymphs hatched out, when i was separating them this evening, one more hatched out. I really hope to raise them to adulthood but it will be tough. Hopefully I can spread this species eventually.

Ootheca (The top two are Rhombodera sp. bottom two are D. Desiccata)







Hatching






L1






This is the adult female which produced the ooth






edit: Taking R. Basilis out till further identification.


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## Rob Byatt

Oh I feel happy again !

I have not seen this species since '95 (whoops, '05  ) when I ended up with 6 females and no males 

I really hope this is successful for you Yen.


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## OGIGA

How big is the mantis? Or how big is the lid that it's standing on?


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## Rob Byatt

Without answering for Yen....... females are typically 80-90mm.


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## OGIGA

Ah. That's not a bad size.


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## Sheldon Johnson

You mean 05 Rob.

Good luck Yen, if you need some advice, Rob is te guy to ask; he was the only person that managed to culture them in long term.


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## Rick

Have always been interested in these. Hopefully you can get them going.


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## yen_saw

Ok, apparently, it is still hatching, and this morning i woke up to find 40 more nymphs!! It is looking good for now at least, hope to raise them to another generation. I will get the pic later, lets hope the next ootheca will hatch out a good number too.


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## Christian

Hi.

We had _Rh. basalis_ until 2005 or so. The old stock was bluish green. This one resembles the _Rh. valida_ I had for a while, execpt that the shield is somewaht smaller in the specimen on the foto. _Rh. valida_ was even larger that the _Rh. basalis_ which were in stock. There are several variable species which look similarly and are hard to distinguish. I cannot say from the photo to which one it belongs.

Regards,

Christian


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## Ian

Awesome Yen  

Nice to see these back in culture again. Was the female a WC, or CB specimen?


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## Fisherman_Brazil

congragulation Yen

Way to go!

Luke


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## yen_saw

Thanks guys. My intention is to breed them here first in the US, and hopefully they can continue for many generation. I just don't want to take any risk shipping it overseas again!!



> Was the female a WC, or CB specimen?


Female was a WC specimen.


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## Rick

Put me on the waiting list....


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## jplelito

> Put me on the waiting list....


Ditto!


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## yen_saw

Here are more pics of the hatchling, i have no idea they hatched out over 2 days, or might be more...













> if you need some advice, Rob is te guy to ask; he was the only person that managed to culture them in long term.


Rob, could you kindly give a few pointers on what should i watch out for this species? What happened to your culture that left you with only 6 of this species after three generation?


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## Sheldon Johnson

Here is some simple advice Yen; avoid cold snaps. These will die so easily if the temperature drops suddenly (how i lost 4 sub adults in a night).

Anyway, good luck with them. If you want some more in-detail accounts, just msn me.


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## Rob Byatt

> Rob, could you kindly give a few pointers on what should i watch out for this species? What happened to your culture that left you with only 6 of this species after three generation?


At last I am able to reply !

It has taken me some time to remember what happened, my memory is fading :wink:

Basically at the beginning of 2005 (not '95 :wink: ) I lost 70+ 3rd-4th instar nymphs, the reason for this I will warn you about later. Then I moved house. I lost a few more through bad moults and some random deaths.

The next thing I knew I had 6 adult females and no males. I managed to get a male from Martin French and got my last female paired, this was after 6 months of watching them die one by one.

Unfortunatley she died before laying. And that was the last time I saw them. I feel emotional now  

The best advice I can give you Yen is this; *don't let the temperature drop below 70 F at night*, this is how I lost the 70.

To be honest, I didn't find them anymore difficult to rear than _Sphodromantis_ spp., though they will drink if you offer them water every 3 days.

Temperature during the day 80-85 F.

Do not try to keep them communially, it won't work :wink:

Though this may not be _R. basalis_ (different colour), I think that you can assume they require similar conditions.

I hope that helps, Rob.


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## yen_saw

Thanks Sheldon. I assumed the low temp must be pretty low (&lt;15C). Here is what i can share from the moment (Thanks Christian!), and some info for anyone else interested in this species in the future.



> _They are good feeders, and can be kept together at first stages, gut have to be spread out among large enclosures or kept separately at all as soon as they begin to show more interest to themselves as to the offered food... _The T is critical: Rh. basalis did not well above 25-26°C, Rh. valida not over 28°C. By night, they needed 15-19° and 20°C, respectively. If it got hotter, they began vomiting and either died or became infertile as adults. I lost by valida stock to the hot summer last year. I couldn't cool them down. Something similar happened to the basalis. If your stock is from the lowlands, the T may not play such a critical note, but our stocks reacted badly on overheating.
> 
> Feeding is not really a problem. We do not feed crickets over here though, due to the vomiting desease.


So far the appeared to be hardy being kept at 85F (day) and 80F (night) with daily misting. Zero casualty. Some have started to feed ferociously, eventhough they are just 6-10 hours after birth. Some even showing sign of "killing and not eating" habit, very disturbing. So anyone keeping nymph must have ample supply of food source. A total fruit fly massacre in the cage :shock: It wouldn't be too long before they turn into each other. Another observation was ootheca continue to hatch for the third day, another 30 nymphs found in the cage after i removed all out just yesterday. Will keep everyone update when possible. Hopefully more experience breeders can share their thought here as this is the species i hope to dsitribute in the future and experience from previous breeders are important to make this happen.


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## yen_saw

Thanks Rob, i didn't see your reply when i submit the previous post. Good info! As Summer is approaching, low temp will not be an issue here. I am more worry about temp. being too high based on Christian's advice.

That was a bummer about your 6 unmated female  

Thanks again for the info.


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## Sheldon Johnson

Actually Rob, if i recall, Martin didnt come through for you and it was my last male that i sent to you...


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## Rob Byatt

> Actually Rob, if i recall, Martin didnt come through for you and it was my last male that i sent to you...


Damn it, you are right. I'm losing the plot mate :roll: Sorry and thanks !


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## Sheldon Johnson

The point being Yen, is that between the 3 of us; Rob, Myself and Martin, we all failed at similar times due to some horrible weather, so be very careful. I guess it wont be as big of a problem in the US, but you have been warned!


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## hibiscusmile

I have heard that they can take up to 2 weeks to finish hatching!


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## yen_saw

> The point being Yen, is that between the 3 of us; Rob, Myself and Martin, we all failed at similar times due to some horrible weather, so be very careful. I guess it wont be as big of a problem in the US, but you have been warned!


That was too bad.... Houston weather is pretty warm being close to Gulf of Mexico. From May to September, temperature almost never drop below 70F, heat might be an issue instead with 100F (very common) during August. But i hope some will mature into adult before the next winter sets in.

I will be able to learn from this batch and hopefully have some for sell when the next batch is available.



> I have heard that they can take up to 2 weeks to finish hatching!


I have no idea about the hatching pattern for Rhombodera sp. but doubt it will take that long. Stagmomantis sp can take as long as 2 week to hatch though. I just got home today (thrid day) and found total of 40+ nymphs hatched out, so combined with the 60+ from yesterday and a day before. It is ~100-110 nymphs total. My guess is it is done hatching.


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## hibiscusmile

That's good, it seems like you had a good hatch rate.


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## yen_saw

I was wrong, it continued to hatch yesterday evening. But i can see some hatchling stucked at the ootheca so that may indicate sign of the end. i am separating them into 2 groups (about 70+ each) with two different conditions. One with higher T and H, and another with lower T and H. So far the one with higher T is doing well, i suspect it is from the lowland species. They are greedy bunch and will continue to killl even with full tummy. :shock:


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## hibiscusmile

I've seen this before, whenever I thought a certain ooth was thru hatching and i was going to throw it out..."lo &amp; behold" there were more hatching. I wait forever now... or close to it. :lol:


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## yen_saw

The second ooth hatched out few days ago! This time it is all out bursting type hatching. The hatchling from first ooth are all at L3 now (going to L4 soon), the shield is not developed yet, looking forward to see one soon. I have put more details in my webpage under following link

http://www.usamantis.com/shield_log.html












L3 nymph


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## Ben.M

Some day i will hav this species as they are so interesting and beautiful to look at


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## yen_saw

This species turn out to be one of the easiest so far. Basically plenty of food and spray daily and they will be happy as can be! Temperature will only affect the growth but they can take extreme temp. between 100F and 65F without any casualty. Some of them grow pretty fast and is L4 now. They are basically green but some are jade green, yellowish green, dark green, etc. Some have purple legs and other has bluish green head. The shield is just beginning to show but it should be more obvious after next molt. Will keep the updating here. Below are two different L4 specimen. They are still very little right now so hopefully the shield will grow as their body length increase.


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## Birdfly

Thats an interesting colour Yen, the young nymph on your thumb, almost orange. Have you found any others deviating from green?


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## yen_saw

> Thats an interesting colour Yen, the young nymph on your thumb, almost orange. Have you found any others deviating from green?


Hi Birdfly, they are green basically but some shows darker and lighter color such as yellowish and bluish besides the green. Lets hope your specimen will turn out to be a colorful group as well.


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## Birdfly

Im sure they will Yen, thanks, they've moulted up an instar since they arrived, Only the faintest sign of a developing shield too. I must admit, im quite looking forward to seeing them as adults, but am still enjoying them as small nymphs.

cheers.


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## yen_saw

Well I am not a very patient person, if it helps by stretching their pronotum by hand, i would do that to "speed-up" the process :lol: After another molt, i can finally see shield with my naked eye, yay! :lol: this species does not grow up very quickly even after 4-5 molt, i guess it is compensating the development on the shield, i hope they will explode in size on the coming few molts, both on the length and the shield size..... very wishful thinking i know.

Some of the nymphs have larger shield than the other, i wonder if that could help me in se-xing this species. I caught one that is closest to the zipper on the net cage (so not to allow any flies escaping!), this one has the average size shield. It has body length of only about 1.5 inch


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## Ian

Starting to look more like a Rhombodera now Yen  

Do you have no clue what species this could be?


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## yen_saw

No clue buddy unfortunately!! was advised to use Rhombodera sp for now. I will send an adult specimen to Christian for identification, i have many of them although still keeping them together, hopefully i can get some adults from this species, it could be R. Valida if the shield turn out to be larger than the wild caught adult female, but i have seen many coloration of this species so far so it is hard to tell


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## yen_saw

Here is another one that molted for the fifth time.


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## Asa

I stink at getting them to molt correctly. Good pictures  .


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## wuwu

> Do not try to keep them communially, it won't work :wink:


i started off with 23, but i'm down to 19 now. 1 died from a mismolt, even though i mist everyday. 1 died from unknown reasons and 2 got eaten. due to their small size at L2/L3, i figured 2 per 32 oz. room was more than enough room, especially since i fed them plenty of fruitflies each day. guess i was wrong. :x

now i separated them all to 1 per 32 oz. container. now i just need to hope no others die from mismolting or unknown reasons.


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## yen_saw

ANother molt gone, still a small size. But the shield is very visible by now.


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## yen_saw

Another update, i believed it is just 2 molts away now. Got to love the shield


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## ddvw123abc

Ooooooooooo Pretty


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## Mettler

Aren't these supposed to grow even bigger and bulkier than H. Membranacea, H. Grandis, and S. Lineola etc? I've been finding conflicting information and it's making it tricky to figure out what will be the biggest of them all.


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## Birdfly

Yes i have read this type of info about _Rhombodera basilis_ ie bigger, better, stronger 110mm etc but i believe its all untrue of _R basilis_

As yet we dont think this species is _R basilis_, but still dont know what species it is?

I have seen dryed "sheild type" mantids that looked like they could be around the 120mm mark on the net, but i cant be exact and i cant find the pics any more.

Who knows, we'll have to wait and see how this type pans out??


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## Asa

I got confused by that too, but they don't grow that large.


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## yen_saw

This species is about the size of 8-9 cm. Not as long as H. membranacea but slightly longer than african mantis.


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## yen_saw

This one just molted into subadult female, about 60 mm. My guess is it will be about 80 mm when adult.


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## RodG

Great photos of a fantastic mantid 8)


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## wuwu

how cool! can't wait till mind reach that size. mine are only L4/L5 and i don't see much of the shield yet.


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## Birdfly

Exellent photos Yen, cant wait for mine to get some size.


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## yen_saw

Thanks guys.

Couple of days ago, I witnessed the second cannibalism. A subadult female taking down a sub-subadult female. I promptly separate the mantis and realized that i only have 4 male!! :shock: so female outnumber male by 4:1 ratio for me right now. I have noticed the same finding from another person who received the same stock from me. Did you have a chance to take a look at your stock Birdfly?


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## Asa

Beautiful mantis.


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## Birdfly

Hi Yen, no i havent tryed to *S E X* them at all, if i think along the lines of one *S E X *maturing quicker than another i would hazard a guess at 50/50, but its pure guess work, if i find time this week i might be able to get the magnifying glass out provided one of the kids hasn't been digging with it or taking anothers temperature :lol:


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## Rob Byatt

Most Rhombodera are highly canabalistic and you will eventually end up with one very fat mantis :wink:

When I was breeding _R. basalis_, I found them to be one of the worst species for canabalism I have ever kept - that was at 3rd instar when I always seperate off breeding stock, they are even worse when older.

A low male to female ratio is the norm for _R. basalis_, so this could be inferred for this very similar species.


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## Christian

Hi.

I can't tell it for _Rh. valida_, it was approx. 1:1.

Regards,

Christian


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## yen_saw

I still think it is just coincident. i will check the outcome with others. Wuwu, are yours large enough to s.ex? Right now most of them have reached subadult, hopefully i can breed them for another generation.


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## yen_saw

I was told by another breeder that he has more male than female for this species :? well he noticed that male is the weaker between the two genders, more prone to diseases compared to female so he keeps more male on separate individual cage with extra care. I hope this is not true because i only have 4 male (3 subadult and 1 sub-subadult)


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## wuwu

> I still think it is just coincident. i will check the outcome with others. Wuwu, are yours large enough to s.ex? Right now most of them have reached subadult, hopefully i can breed them for another generation.


yea, they should be. i just have to use a magnifying glass. i'll try to sex them when i get a chance. at what stage do you start seeing the size difference between the two sexes?


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## yen_saw

Sorry i missed your question wuwu. they are about the same size up to sub-subadult, male has smaller shield and slimmer abdomen, but about the same length really.


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## yen_saw

Finally two of the smallest females (with smaller shield) molted into adult today, her shield expanded quite a bit on the last molt and about 7.5 cm but still small compare to the other subadult female, i'm looking forward to see a larger shield for those larger females. Now i hope the male will molt out alright. If possible, I will keep another generation before quitting it.

Here is the comparison between two subadult female, the one on the left is going to molt (which has molted recently), but appeared smaller than the subadult female on the right which molted out just 2 days ago.







Here is the average size of a subadult female at about 6 cm, this one is about 6.5 if measure from head to tip of abdomen.






Pic of the small adult female






Enjoy!


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## Asa

They look so cool when they're older! I've only got nymphs.


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## yen_saw

Asa, you will start to see sign of shield at L4/L5. The shield grows up pretty quick each moult after that.


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## Asa

Cool. I'm at L3.


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## yen_saw

ah ok won't be long now :wink:

It took me only 2 months to raise them from hatchling to adult so you should see sign of shield by end of this month.


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## yen_saw

4 subadult females and the last subadult male have decided to molt into adult yesterday, it is great to see all of them molt out alright and none has mis-moulting issue going into adult so far (just hate to see they come so far just to mismolt on the last moult). Will wait for 2 weeks and start to pair them up, lets hope the female can be nice to the male as they outnumbered male in 4 to 1 ratio :shock:


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## Asa

Did the mantid in the second picture get hurt? It looks as if something green is oozing out.


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## yen_saw

No that i know Asa. She looks fine to me.


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## Asa

Okay, that's good.


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## Rob Byatt

Glad so many have come through successfully out of what you had left.

One word of caution though - I'd wait more than 2 weeks until you try to pair them, these are very aggresive towards the males.

Rob.


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## Kriss

That males got his work cut out for him.

They are very beautiful Yen, great mantids.


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## RodG

More great photos Yen!!! Best of luck with them.


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## Asa

How did you make the lids for the cages? Drill a hole and cover it with mesh?


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## yen_saw

Thanks guys.

Just cut a hole in the center, and hot glue it with mesh screen. the lid on top left and right are readily made when bought.


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## Ian

That's awesome Yen! I think you are probably the first breeder to have successfully reared so many to adult...let's hope your luck progresses when you breed them


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## Asa

Yeah, don't let the male get killed! It turns out, that I have all females


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## yen_saw

Thanks Ian, hopefully this species will be around in large quantity and more readily available to mantis hobbyists. Just hope breeding will do fine, i am sure it will be another "orchid boom" for me if this species can breed well cos ootheca hatched out at least hundred nymphs


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## Ian

That's not bad at all...even better if you get some killer ooths like you did with the Hymenopus =]

Keep us up to date bud.


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## yen_saw

My last subadult female moluted into adult...yay!!













> Asa Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: Yeah, don't let the male get killed! It turns out, that I have all females


I hope to have some male left for you, the first pair mated today. She's adult since 6/31 and male's adult just 10 days ago. I tried couple of days ago and the male appeared not interested with the female at all. Today, female appear to be releasing phermones (spelling!) so it does work this time. Female is constantly interested with the male (as food source) until i stuffed her up nicely.


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## OGIGA

Wow, nice! Does the shield keep the female from grabbing the male or anything?


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## Asa

I would be happy to steal your male away, but my females are only L3 and L4. And growing very slowly.


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## yen_saw

> Wow, nice! Does the shield keep the female from grabbing the male or anything?


I don't think the shield will stop a female to grab the male if she is determined to have him for dinner. I did follow the mating process. The male actually monitored the female for a while, kind of making sure she is not threatening before jumping on her back.



> I would be happy to steal your male away, but my females are only L3 and L4. And growing very slowly.


That is strange that your nymphs stay on L3/L4 stage for this long, if you keep them warmer and feed more often, they sould grow up quickly.

i left them together for the night, and they appeared to be just separated this morning. Male is alive!!  i will send the male your way Asa if he is still alive after few more pairing ups. I have 7 more adult females to mate, hopefully the other 3 male will do the job with equal success.


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## Asa

My house is frigid. It's lucky I'm able to keep the one's I have alive. I'm debating to moving everything to the shed.


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## yen_saw

Gez Asa, are you trying to kill your mantis?

The mated female appear to be receptive again so i put another male and they mated promptly.












Now i have two "experience" adult male


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## Asa

> Gez Asa, are you trying to kill your mantis?


Of course not. I just had an entire shift of everything. It took 5 hours :shock:

Now everybody's at 78 ish.


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## yen_saw

Ah good! hopefully you will see some "shield" soon.


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## Asa

Yep, I see it now. One molted to L5.


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## Ian

Congrats Yen! Good to see you managed to breed these. Let us know how you get on with the ootheca


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## yen_saw

Thanks Ian, i hope to see ootheca from the mated female in near future. She is being fed daily, sometimes I wonder how her abdomen can store so much food. I brought her out for some wild insects, but the weather in Houston has been terrible with routine daily rain so not much luck for her finding any, so i took some pics of her instead.


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## RodG

Great photos Yen!!! Can't wait to see the ooths and the nymphs that will follow 8)


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## Asa

Wow. She does look fat :lol:


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## Ian

Wow, she really is bursting! Good work Yen.


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## yen_saw

Thanks guys, she can really eat like a pig!! hopefully i will have a pic of ootheca in near future.


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## OGIGA

Heh, I hope she doesn't end up escaping.


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## yen_saw

Honestly, i was more worry of her dropping than escaping :wink:

Tada..... she laid an ooth this morning!! and now she is back to her aggressive form. The ootheca is HUGE! i would say at least 200 eggs inside that ooth. It has been satisfying so far. Not the toughest species but i would give extra care to the male. Looking forward to complete the "circle" when this ootheca hatches, hopefully by the end of next month or early September.


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## Asa

That is pretty big!! Nearly as big as the mantis. Continue to stuff the 'pig' :lol:


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## RodG

Great work Yen!!! Looking forward to some nymphs


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## MikhailsDinos

Yen,

Thats a beautiful species! I just love seeing what you have going on. 8)


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## chris hill

great pics yen. i love hatchling mantids. what are you going to do with that many ?? i always wanted to hatch my own ooth


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## Ben.M

Man thats huge  , good luck with the nymphs Yen,

And Chris u will some day


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## Ian

Oh congrats Yen! We knew you could do it  

That is one beefy ooth. Do let us know how you get on with it!


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## yen_saw

Thanks guys!

Ian, nice avatar. Honestly, i like this one better


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## Ian

Haha, well you know Yen, now it has your approval, I feel I can finally sleep at night


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## yen_saw

Oh come on Ian. Really, am I that mean?  



> Continue to stuff the 'pig'


Yes she is back to her 30 blue bottle and 5 large crickets daily diet :shock:



> what are you going to do with that many ??


Sell it :!:



> I just love seeing what you have going on.


Thanks Mikhail, lets hope your ground mantis lays one soon.



> Looking forward to some nymphs


Me too Rod, me too....

The angle of the pic may be the reason why the ooth appeared gigantic, it was shot from the bottom, here are couple more pics from the side and top. Anyway, the ooth is X.X.L size with good girth.


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## robo mantis

Hey Yen are we going to have a big mantis dinner yet or do they need more fattening?  Oh this isn't pm sorry Yen  lol joking


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## Ben.M

It still looks huge


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## robo mantis

Watch out Yen its going to eat you! :lol:


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## Asa

Ha ha! Yeah Ian, I am so glad you got rid of that disgusting avatar.


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## robo mantis

DON'T remind him


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## Ian

> Oh come on Ian. Really, am I that mean?


You sure are...I mean that time you sent me anthrax was just uncalled for!

Anyway, back onto the Rhombodera now


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## chrisbrock

What, that wasn't a pic of yourself Ian?


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## Ian

> What, that wasn't a pic of yourself Ian?


Na, I am not quite that hot I am afraid. ^_^


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## chrisbrock

&lt;----&lt;&lt; Real Pic of me.


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## Asa

> What, that wasn't a pic of yourself Ian?
> 
> 
> 
> Na, I am not quite that hot I am afraid. ^_^
Click to expand...

Hot :lol: 

I really wish that species would just grow.


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