# Spiders as lunch?



## [email protected] (Mar 10, 2009)

Just wondering if mantis diet could be supplemented with spiders?

(I hope it is ok i just fed one to my florida bark mantis and then thouht of it but there was no getting it back....)


----------



## mikemercer (Mar 10, 2009)

Chase said:


> Just wondering if mantis diet could be supplemented with spiders?(I hope it is ok i just fed one to my florida bark mantis and then thouht of it but there was no getting it back....)


i wouldnt see why not as long as there just common spiders and not some tropical poisens one (but id wait for the more experiance ppl to answer first im still a newbie just trying to help)


----------



## Rick (Mar 10, 2009)

Everytime I find one it is fed to a mantis. Black widows too.


----------



## mikemercer (Mar 10, 2009)

Rick said:


> Everytime I find one it is fed to a mantis. Black widows too.


never would have imaged black widows. they take them down ok?


----------



## ismart (Mar 10, 2009)

Spiders are deffinetly on the menue. Just use commonsense when feeding them to your mantids. For instance you would not try to feed a spider to a mantis that is the same size. I'm not saying a mantis cant take a spider the same size, but is it worth the risk to your pet. I usally feed my mantids spiders that are no bigger than the mantids head.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 10, 2009)

Wow that was fast but not as fast as the mantis ate it i typed the first post went back to him/her there was only like 10% left i will go catch some more so his/her friends can enjoy.


----------



## nasty bugger (Mar 10, 2009)

When I visited Chuck at the spider pharm he touched a spider on the ceiling and said that I could feed my mantis one of those, then came back and smiled and said that if I had rare of expensive mantis' that feeding the mantis any predator, especially a spider, may not be a good idea, and that the spider may take the mantis, so he was not really suggesting that I feed the spider to the mantis, unless I wanted to watch the ensuing show.

He did say that my mantis may lose, and smiled, so maybe get on his site and ask him what he thinks about the spider vs mantis issue.


----------



## robelgado (Mar 10, 2009)

Yea, they love spiders.

I have an immense amount of spiders around my house, and I constantly feed them to my mantids.

They love the spiders, they eat the legs and all.


----------



## hibiscusmile (Mar 10, 2009)

I was chatting with Chuck a couple of hours ago about spiders, he has sent me some to see how the mantis like them and soon he will be selling me them to sell on my site, the spiders he has sent the mantis do good with and they are not to big for my girls, and I feed any I can catch running around in the Bugatorium too!  We have a lot of spiders.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Mar 10, 2009)

ismart said:


> Spiders are deffinetly on the menue. Just use commonsense when feeding them to your mantids. For instance you would not try to feed a spider to a mantis that is the same size. I'm not saying a mantis cant take a spider the same size, but is it worth the risk to your pet. I usally feed my mantids spiders that are no bigger than the mantids head.


Yeah, that sounds very cautious, but my friend just fed a leaf rolling spider, Phonognatha graeffei, to a false garden mantis, Pseudomantis albofimbriata. The spider was twice the size of the mantid's head and was able to paralyze one of her raptorial arms for a few minutes. We both live in areas that have venomous spiders (AZ recluse and black widow, here) and so defang the spider when in doubt. They are a great source of protein, though!

So Rebecca, what species is Chuck sending you? Black widows?


----------



## Katnapper (Mar 11, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> so defang the spider when in doubt.


How in the world do you do that, Phil? I can't help it, I have this image of a spider dentist... :lol: 

I've found spiders outside in the summer here and fed them with great sucess to adult Chinese girls. They'll tackle about anything! But I hardly ever find any in the house. I think the cats get to them first! But to use spiders consistently as feeders wouldn't work for me. The times I have found them and fed them... it was such an ordeal catching and wrangling them before getting them into the mantids cage, that it's not worth it to me. Spiders freak me out if they get on me! Ahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Hypoponera (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes, you can feed your mantid spiders. A black widow is no more dangerous to a mantid then a cricket. Less actually considering how slow and clumsy widows are when not in thier web. ANY AND ALL spiders have venom that CAN effect a mantid if the spider has a chance of delivering the bite. Don't be fooled by the size of the spider either. The venom of a small spider can kill a large mantid though the mantid may not show the effects for awhile.

If you do insist on feeding spiders to your mantids, use only orb weavers and other slow, clumsy species. Avoid any fast and agile ground spider species. A wolf spider or jumping spider can easily turn the tables on a much slower moving mantis. It's that "hunter becomes the hunted thing".


----------



## PhilinYuma (Mar 11, 2009)

This is rapidly turning into one of those threads where personal experience tends to be generalized into Rules of Conduct!  

I agree with a lot that has been said here on the side of caution and question anything that suggests that "it's O.K. if you just follow this practice." For example, Phonognatha graeffei, although not an orb spider proper, curls a leaf with a sheet web (rather like tent caterpillars do) and is rather slow moving, much like a black widow.

The only time that I have bothered with spiders was when I was still starting out, had inadequate conventional food supplies and black widows were abundant locally. As a precaution, I held the spider in a pair of padded forceps in my left hand, and using a head magnifier (the Boon to the Elderly) crushed the mandibles with a pair of forceps held in my right. Not quite as sophisticated as Chuck's milking apparatus, but effective. I do not like mutilating critters, for some reason, and will probably not bother to use this source of food, except for the occasional orb spider, in the future.

My friend, however, is made of much sterner stuff, and it is rumored that she snatches up a spider or wasp with her bare hand and bites off the offending appendage with her teeth. Go, Mija!


----------



## Rick (Mar 11, 2009)

Only danger when using spiders like black widows is the danger to you, not the mantis. Don't think I do this often. I did it once when I caught one in my garage. Now those house spiders I did feed pretty often because they were all over my house last year. Trying to defang or milk a spider to make it less "dangerous" to your mantis is just comical.

African manties eating that black widow:


----------



## hibiscusmile (Mar 11, 2009)

yea, teeth put to work and a tough woman to got with em! gotta love her!


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 11, 2009)

Thank you for all of the information i guess they will just be a occasional snack. :mellow:


----------



## superfreak (Mar 13, 2009)

If your mantid picks up the spider the wrong way it will have a chance to bite the mantid. This WILL affect your mantid. Whether it kills it or not will depend on the size of the spiders usual prey. a spider with strong fangs will be able to penetrate the exoskeleton of the mantid. But it doesnt need to - the mantid has vulnerable areas between its exoskeletal plates. Ive had similar things happen with wasps. I use spiders as a last resort and even then i crush their fangs with forceps. and its simple enough to pull the stinger from a wasp.

better safe than sorry!


----------



## Rick (Mar 14, 2009)

superfreak said:


> If your mantid picks up the spider the wrong way it will have a chance to bite the mantid. This WILL affect your mantid. Whether it kills it or not will depend on the size of the spiders usual prey. a spider with strong fangs will be able to penetrate the exoskeleton of the mantid. But it doesnt need to - the mantid has vulnerable areas between its exoskeletal plates. Ive had similar things happen with wasps. I use spiders as a last resort and even then i crush their fangs with forceps. and its simple enough to pull the stinger from a wasp. better safe than sorry!


Very, very low risk. I've never had an issue and I have fed hundreds of spiders.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Mar 14, 2009)

Rick said:


> Very, very low risk. I've never had an issue and I have fed hundreds of spiders.


Now you've done it Rick!  Based on your undoubted experience in the SE U.S., forum members all over the world are going to go out and snatch up spiders barehanded (because they don't want to appear comical) and many will not even get home to endanger their mantises. I don't know where in Australia SF comes from, but I do know that new member James lives in the middle of Sidney Funnel Spider country. Do you have your anti venom kit handy, James? They have even discovered a new poisonous spider in Brno, Moravia!

The difference between spiders and venomous insects like bees and wasps is that the latter are traditional mantis prey, particularly among flower mantids, but as most of us already know, and Hurd points out in Prete's _The Praying Mantids_, "Mantids and spiders eat each other," and though we tilt the balance heavily in favor of our charges by choosing smaller spiders for larger mantids, the spider stands a better chance than any other live food, I think, of turning the tables.


----------



## Rick (Mar 14, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Now you've done it Rick!  Based on your undoubted experience in the SE U.S., forum members all over the world are going to go out and snatch up spiders barehanded (because they don't want to appear comical) and many will not even get home to endanger their mantises. I don't know where in Australia SF comes from, but I do know that new member James lives in the middle of Sidney Funnel Spider country. Do you have your anti venom kit handy, James? They have even discovered a new poisonous spider in Brno, Moravia!The difference between spiders and venomous insects like bees and wasps is that the latter are traditional mantis prey, particularly among flower mantids, but as most of us already know, and Hurd points out in Prete's _The Praying Mantids_, "Mantids and spiders eat each other," and though we tilt the balance heavily in favor of our charges by choosing smaller spiders for larger mantids, the spider stands a better chance than any other live food, I think, of turning the tables.


I was replying to superfreaks comment about the mantis picking up a spider the wrong way. Common sense should tell you to watch out for yourself. I don't condone the act of gathering poisonous spiders as food. In my case vast majority of spiders I have used for food were house spiders which equals no danger for people or mantids. You should educate yourself on what is and isn't dangerous. Even the large garden banana spiders are no match for a large mantis.


----------



## superfreak (Mar 14, 2009)

Rick,

Despite how it often looks, a mantid does not consider how to hold its prey or whether its prey might bite it before it strikes. It will try to strike side on because it increases the chance of a successful hit. So often, the prey is almost completely immobilised. Unfortunately this is not always the case. As you said, its a very low risk. But the risk is still there. I have had mantids damages by spiders, wasps and even the odd katydid. Im not talking about some tiny flower mantid being overpowered here - ive had large Tenodera and Hierodula sp being permanently crippled! I had a wasp sting a mantid in the elbow joint even though the mantid had captured it perfectly. The wasp had a telescopic abdomen and felt around until it found a crack in the exoskeleton! Truthfully, before the past few months, i would not have believed that these insects could hurt my mantids. But recently ive had what seems to be a run of bad luck. What im saying is, although it may not happen usually, it sometimes does. I cant see how you can argue with the sense in trying to keep your beloved (and sometimes quite valuable) specimens safe!

Olga.


----------



## hibiscusmile (Mar 14, 2009)

Yeppers, this last summer a wasp got my orchid baby, she fought like a crazy woman to get it off her head and couldn't , when I realized she was in trouble, it took two forcepts of pulling to remove it and its body seperated from its head is why I had to do it twice, it wouldn't let go. The orchid bled, but recovered!


----------



## Rick (Mar 15, 2009)

superfreak said:


> Rick,Despite how it often looks, a mantid does not consider how to hold its prey or whether its prey might bite it before it strikes. It will try to strike side on because it increases the chance of a successful hit. So often, the prey is almost completely immobilised. Unfortunately this is not always the case. As you said, its a very low risk. But the risk is still there. I have had mantids damages by spiders, wasps and even the odd katydid. Im not talking about some tiny flower mantid being overpowered here - ive had large Tenodera and Hierodula sp being permanently crippled! I had a wasp sting a mantid in the elbow joint even though the mantid had captured it perfectly. The wasp had a telescopic abdomen and felt around until it found a crack in the exoskeleton! Truthfully, before the past few months, i would not have believed that these insects could hurt my mantids. But recently ive had what seems to be a run of bad luck. What im saying is, although it may not happen usually, it sometimes does. I cant see how you can argue with the sense in trying to keep your beloved (and sometimes quite valuable) specimens safe!
> 
> Olga.


I have never seen it happen. Ever. Now wasps can have a pretty good bite but then again you shouldn't feed one to a mantis unless that mantis is much larger. Not to mention wasps have little to eat on them anyways. We got mantids around here that sit in these bee/wasp infested meadows and eat them all day long. I don't normally use bees/wasps as food but have. I understand how mantids eat, been observing them since I was old enough to walk. I am not trying to argue with anyone. People like to say this and that will hurt your mantis when it won't. In my experience bee stings and spider bites happen so rarely (if ever) it's just not worth worrying about if you want to give one as an occasional snack to your mantids. Mantids are not beloved pets to me. My herps, cats, etc are beloved pets, not an insect that lives a few months.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Mar 15, 2009)

Rick said:


> I have never seen it happen. Ever. Now wasps can have a pretty good bite but then again you shouldn't feed one to a mantis unless that mantis is much larger. Not to mention wasps have little to eat on them anyways. We got mantids around here that sit in these bee/wasp infested meadows and eat them all day long. I don't normally use bees/wasps as food but have. I understand how mantids eat, been observing them since I was old enough to walk. I am not trying to argue with anyone. People like to say this and that will hurt your mantis when it won't. In my experience bee stings and spider bites happen so rarely (if ever) it's just not worth worrying about if you want to give one as an occasional snack to your mantids. Mantids are not beloved pets to me. My herps, cats, etc are beloved pets, not an insect that lives a few months.


Well, I've run out of anything new to say on this topic, though the discussion has been entertaining. I guess that those of us who regularly feed spiders and venomous insects will continue to do so, those of us who have had bad experiences (even if, Rick, as you suggest, they may be entirely imaginary) won't, and anyone weighing the pros and cons of this practice will be thoroughly confused!  

And anyway, I have to walk Tucker, catch some bees (and the Fairy Dusters in this area have nearly all gone to seed, damn), and admire the spiders


----------

