# bugdesign



## evgenyi (Nov 7, 2009)

Hi everyone! I bought a pair of idolomantis diabolica at

http://www.bugdesign.com.ua/ . They were delivered by a train,But

insects appeared dead at the arrival . They were held in a container

without air holes . i think they die lack air in container . But the salesman says insects can't die because of air lack, but ther cold in train . Can insects survive lack air or die in cold? Is the salesman right in this case?


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## d17oug18 (Nov 7, 2009)

he is wrong, insects breathe lol, how can "lack of air" not be the cuase, he appeartly doesnt know wat he is doing.


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## 4upakabra (Nov 7, 2009)

yes. They could die from lack of oxygen. Idolomantis - view, requiring proper ventilation.


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## massaman (Nov 7, 2009)

sounds like this salesman needs to be told that all living things need to breath including insects!


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 7, 2009)

In my opinion/experience there was enough air in that container to allow the insects to live for at least 3 days (the original post said they were in there for 24 hours), if not an entire week. I will assume the shipper placed them in the container (had it open with a fresh exchange of air) shortly before they arrived at the train station.

The insects died primarily from stress. Cold may have been a contributing factor. There weren't enough textured surfaces in the cage. This species can't hold onto smooth surfaces like other hobby mantises. The single stick in the cage (photos posted in the breeder feedback section) would have done nothing for them as the train moved down the tracks. They would have spent 24 hours clambering around the cage, looking for footholds and holding on (TOO) tightly to one another.

Thank you for moving your post and sorry about your mantises. I will be deleting the non-relevant parts of the feedback thread at the end of this discussion (if I can remember). ( http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16084 )


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## evgenyi (Nov 8, 2009)

What to do with the seller? Claim compensation?


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## Matticus (Nov 8, 2009)

He should send you more in proper shipping (they do sell heat packs) on his dime.


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 8, 2009)

Yeah, I think that you have hit the nail squarely on the head, Peter. Stress is the big killer. Oxygen consumption in insects is measured in cc/hr/G body wt. Of course, we don't know the weight of the mantids (they weren't included in our Great Weight Contest) the size of the pot or the exact time that they were without air, but a mantis sitting quietly on a perch in transit will only use 1/6 of the oxygen required by a stressed active one.

I was a little surprised, Evgenyi, because yr Ukrainian dealer has a very professional looking website and offers a lot of living critters. (Tell us what you think, Surperfreak. I couldn't understand a word!)

You can only claim compensation if he guaranteed live delivery, and his offer suggests that he did not.

Did those of you who checked the site notice that some of the new-world scorpions not only had their scientific name, but also their common name in English? Yay!


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## evgenyi (Nov 8, 2009)

I did not understand who is a Superfreak? Sad death for mantis , but the seller did not reimburse the compensation


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## revmdn (Nov 8, 2009)

Superfreak is a member here.


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 8, 2009)

evgenyi said:


> I did not understand who is a Superfreak? Sad death for mantis , but the seller did not reimburse the compensation


Superfreak is a Russian speaking Ukrainian expatriot on the forum and the subject of the first five lines of "Endymion", a poem by the English poet John Keats.

It is always a good idea to come to an understanding (in writing!) before the sale. This is particularly true when you are dealing with a business.


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## hibiscusmile (Nov 8, 2009)

Thats too bad, they looked good to! hope u get something from the seller.


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## evgenyi (Nov 8, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Thats too bad, they looked good to! hope u get something from the seller.


I liked your site , you can send Ootheca in another country (Russia) ? Bad that we have hard to find a praying mantis and very expensive . As will warm in Russia , I would have bought . And the seller said that he was not guilty, and not to helps...


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 9, 2009)

I can't read the writing on the seller's website. I don't know what conversation you had with the seller/shipper before they sent the mantises.

But, this would be my next move if I were you, Evegenyi (if the seller can read English):



Dear "Seller",

Please review the conversation I am having on Mantidforum.net about the shipping service you have provided. Here is the link where we are reviewing your business "Bugdesign.com.ua": http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16089

As you will read, you failed to provide the appropriate shipping container and that has caused the death of these two mantises. I would appreciate it if you would take responsibility for their deaths and complete your part of our deal. If not, I would appreciate a refund. If you fail to take responsibility for this, I will continue to post truthful feedback on many insect hobby forums.

Thank you,

Evgenyi

And don't forget to update your post in the breeder's feedback thread when you are done!


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## 4upakabra (Nov 9, 2009)

Peter correctly written. I believe that both the best and do. The fight against unscrupulous dealers - our common goal)


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## evgenyi (Nov 9, 2009)

Thanks Peter, I sent a letter to the seller


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 9, 2009)

You know, Evgenyi, interesting as what you have told us is, what you have not told us is even more intriguing!  

It appears that you live in SW Russia, a 24hr train ride from BugDesign's place of business in the Ukraine (as suggested by the UA in his addy and the use of "rph", which I believe stands for the Ukrainian hrivnya).

You joined our American forum on the 6th, apparently with the express purpose of asking about mantis survival under shipping conditions in eastern Europe. This is comparable to me placing an order with a site in Mexico, and then asking a forum on Terra Typica about it in my limping German.

You say that the dealer blamed the deaths on the cold. Where I live the temp drops to a chilly 42C (65F) at night, around now,and it didn't occur to me until I checked that on the Ukrainian Russian border it is only a few degrees above freezing, even this early during the winter. You don't mention whether the dealer used heat packs, and if not, why not. Over here, Peter has a clearly posted policy about when he will ship and the use of hot and cold packs. Most dealers with websites also post their policy on live delivery guarantees over here. Unfortunately, we can't understand what these may be on BugDesign's site.

You also haven't told us about your experience with mantids (we have an Introduce Yourself" section just for that). Since you are apparently not affiliated with with any mantis organization in Europe, and your question suggests a lack of knowledge on the subject, it would appear that you don't have much experience with mantids, though of course I may be wrong. The fact remains, though, that if you are inexperienced, an expensive pair of mantids like the devil's flower mantis, _I. diabolica_, which you had presumably planned on breeding, is an extremely odd choice for a beginner, while if you are an advanced breeder who can handle the special requirements for this hard-to-breed species, I cannot imagine why you would have allowed these heat loving mantids to be exposed to near freezing weather --with or without a heat pack -- for over twenty four hrs.

Finally, since your question was about conditions that might kill mantids in transit, I wonder why you didn't mention the actual temperature, but did post the name and URL of the dealer who sold you the mantids. None of us here, of course, are likely to use him, and whatever is written on our forum is unlikely to ever be read by your dealer, even if he has English. If it is standard practice for this dealer to treat his creatures and customers in such an apparently negligent fashion, it seems odd that he remains in business.

Thanks for yr time, and I hope that you can find a moment to clear up the bewilderment of an old man!


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## 4upakabra (Nov 9, 2009)

Hi All!

In Russia it is very difficult to breed and keeping mantids. Very few people are doing it. I keep a sufficient number of species of mantids, but I order them from Germany (many thanks Lars!)))) All that I order, I convey through friends. I had only one transaction through the mail and it did not succeed (

In Europe, quite difficult to judge about Russia. But if you ever were here, you will understand me. Russian mail works very badly. Delivery of parcels to a big city takes a week. From other countries is very difficult to deliver something by mail.

In Russia and Ukraine, there are several shops selling animals. Dealers go to Europe (mainly in Hamm), buy and sell there animals here with us for the price of 2 times. For example, 1 pair Idolomantis L4-5, which could cost 180-250 euros in Russia.

Sorry for bad English)


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## Kruszakus (Nov 9, 2009)

I reckon you got conned big time. The way they were packed clearly indicates a lack of general knowledge of this species, and total disregard for their comfort and safety - no one serious would have done something that idiotic.

Do you remember the state of them nymphs? Were they soft/limp, or were them nymphs a bit dry? They could have been dead for some time.


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## evgenyi (Nov 10, 2009)

Hello everyone

PhilinYuma, not so long ago I doing mantises, but a lot of friends who are expert in this. And the seller does not say that this is very complicated . And he did not use heat packs. But I realized that I was going on , if the mantis were alive . And when the same is necessary to begin to get experience ? ...

Kruszakus , they were soft


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 10, 2009)

evgenyi said:


> Hello everyone PhilinYuma, not so long ago I doing mantises, but a lot of friends who are expert in this. And the seller does not say that this is very complicated . And he did not use heat packs. But I realized that I was going on , if the mantis were alive . And when the same is necessary to begin to get experience ? ...
> 
> Kruszakus , they were soft


Sadly, as Kruszakus suggested, it looks as though you were ripped off, or the dealer was totally incompetent. I spoke with the dealer's countrywoman earlier. She is too busy studying for finals to have time to look at the site, but she did point out that sending out mantids at this time of year even with hot packs would be fatal.

Well at least you found a great forum and can maybe hook up with 4upakabra, the only Russian on the forum who can make Mexican jokes


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## evgenyi (Nov 13, 2009)

The seller never responded. Posted at Russian forums about what happened


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