# Ghost mating - connection time?



## kamakiri (Sep 20, 2009)

*How long do they typically stay connected?*

Thanks to Arkanis, I finally have an adult male (and a subadult male) for my two girls Liana and BatGirl. I didn't waste any time attempting the mating yesterday. The first try was with Liana. I introduced the two and had his antennae touch her, and he quicly mounted backwards and shortly spun around. I think he's a tad larger than she is. She was on a bouquet of fake flowers and in a few minutes started walking. His two back legs at some point were off and eventually she walked away leaving him behind.

Tried again a little later. I blew on them to urge him to move up a little forward on her. Checked on them frequently and at about 7 pm they were connected. Left for a party right after...came back at 11 pm and they were separated. Liana was at on the flowers and he was very low on the bouquet, but I was just surprised to see that they might have been done that quickly. A pair of limbata that connected at about 6pm last night are still connected as I type.

I know several posts suggest that ghosts need or prefer darkness to mate and these were under lights while we were out. * Does 4 hours sound long enough?*


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## agent A (Sep 20, 2009)

4 hours should be long enough.


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## Rick (Sep 20, 2009)

agent A said:


> 4 hours should be long enough.


Have you bred these? If you know for a fact they were connect for four hours it should be ok but I would mate them again. If you are not sure they connected then you must mate them again.


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## agent A (Sep 20, 2009)

Rick said:


> Have you bred these? If you know for a fact they were connect for four hours it should be ok but I would mate them again. If you are not sure they connected then you must mate them again.


I think 4 hours is enough for any species. btw Rick, why do you keep changing your avatar, I kinda liked the turtle.


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## Rick (Sep 20, 2009)

agent A said:


> I think 4 hours is enough for any species. btw Rick, why do you keep changing your avatar, I kinda liked the turtle.


Ok and have you bred these? If not then don't offer advice.


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## kamakiri (Sep 20, 2009)

Could someone who has bred ghosts chime in please?


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## kamakiri (Sep 25, 2009)

Update:

I suppose the mating was successful. Liana started laying an ooth when I left for work this morning. 6 days after mating.

It's interesting the posture that is used when laying. Sorry about the cell phone quality of the shot:

click for larger


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## kamakiri (Sep 25, 2009)

Didn't notice when it started, but I checked on her after lunch and I think the ooth is a blue-green or light turquoise when just finished. Looks like it might be holding about 20 eggs counting the zigs and zags of the zipper.


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## kamakiri (Sep 25, 2009)




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## AmandaLynn (Sep 25, 2009)

Nice picture. I just mated two of my ghosts the other day. They didn't stay connected for very long either, they actually disconnected about half way through, I blew on them a little and they reconnected pretty quickly. Overall they were together for about 4.5-5 hours, that's counting the time they weren't connected. I'm going to put them together again this weekend, just to be sure.

Best of luck with your ooth!


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## hibiscusmile (Sep 25, 2009)

Sorry I am late with this one, u both did fine, they will be fertile so don't worry about that. I didn't answer because I thought with all the post someone else was gonna, so here I am, late but here.

The ooths will be fertile and in 6 or 7 weeks from now u will have babies, get the nurseries ready  and don't forget grandma will buy extra ooths B)


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## kamakiri (Sep 26, 2009)

Thanks to you both for the replies! I feel more confident that this first ooth will be fertile.  Now I can prioritize getting my other female BatGirl mated next instead of re-mating Liana. Didn't go too well today as he seemed to prefer flying around the house instead  Dang, he's a strong flier!


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## kamakiri (Sep 30, 2009)

Wow. I'm pleased to say that Liana started her 2nd ooth this morning! It was only 5 days ago that she made the first.

Still haven't gotten BatGirl mated yet  I've been focusing on all the _limbata_ lately...

EDIT:

Tried again with BatGirl that evening 9/30. While the male was mounted, but not connected, she wouln't walk off the plastic grid onto the fake plants I use for husbandry... Stuck them in the tub while still on the grid/ladder. The did not appear to connect before I went to bed and the last attempt to get them on the fake plants resulted in him flying around the room.


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## kamakiri (Oct 4, 2009)

Finally...seems that BatGirl has finally mated. The male from Arkanis was mounted since 11 am yesterday, but they did not appear to connect through the whole day. He was still mounted when we went to bed and this morning he was dismounted on the other side of the room. First thing, I was a little worried that nothing happened since the valves were not up and there was no evidence that mating occured except for his presumed intentional departure. The good sign is that just now, BatGirl has been moving and gyrating her valves out of the ovipositor like Liana did the next morning after she was mated. *whew*. I'll post some pictures of the valves out later.

I'm expecting Liana to lay tomorrow if she holds to a five day laying interval.


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## Kruszakus (Oct 4, 2009)

Actually, Agent A was kinda right... mating does take a couple of hours in case of this species.

Remember to keep those ooths humid and don't go above 28C.


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## kamakiri (Oct 4, 2009)

Yes, but he was probably just guessing.



agent A said:


> I think 4 hours is enough for any species.


I know for certain that 4 hours is not enough for all species. I have not had any of the limbata connected for less than 10 hours.

But thanks for confirming that it is enough time for ghosts. The ooths will not see more than about 25C or 77F or so. The hatching container is misted 1 or 2 times a day not directly.


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## Kruszakus (Oct 5, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Yes, but he was probably just guessing.I know for certain that 4 hours is not enough for all species. I have not had any of the limbata connected for less than 10 hours.
> 
> But thanks for confirming that it is enough time for ghosts. The ooths will not see more than about 25C or 77F or so. The hatching container is misted 1 or 2 times a day not directly.


Use saturated coconut fibre or something like that. Those ooths really like it humid.


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## kamakiri (Oct 5, 2009)

Kruszakus said:


> Use saturated coconut fibre or something like that. Those ooths really like it humid.


The first ooth (that these two females hatched from) I used a foam insert that was soaked (4" disk). My ambient humidity in the bug room was not more than 23% at the time. Lately it has been in the high 40% to low 50% range. I've only been soaking a 1" diameter foam plug, but making sure it stays wet day to day.


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## kamakiri (Oct 6, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> I'm expecting Liana to lay tomorrow (10/5) if she holds to a five day laying interval.


I guess I was being too pushy. She's just started laying five minutes ago...so it's 6 days since the last ooth.


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## kamakiri (Oct 6, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> I'll post some pictures of the valves out later.


BatGirl after mating:


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## kamakiri (Oct 8, 2009)

BatGirl laid today...late this morning or early of afternoon, 5 days after mating.


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## kamakiri (Oct 13, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> She's just started laying five minutes ago...so it's 6 days since the last ooth.


Her fourth was started this morning. 7 days later, I hope it's a larger one! It has been a little cooler lately, so even though I am trying to feed as heavily as possible, I think I should keep both of them a little warmer.


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## kamakiri (Oct 18, 2009)

BatGirl made her 2nd ooth on Friday 10/16, 8 days after her first.

2 adult females and a subadult male made their way back to me... so I have a couple more to be mated. :lol: 

They're a bit smaller than the other two which are already small compared to the one adult male that I have, so I'm curious to see how this will work out!


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## kamakiri (Oct 19, 2009)

I guess I'm more impatient than I thought. I gave the two new females several crickets since yesterday morning. Since they looked relatively fattened up and both appeared to be 'calling' this morning, I figured it's mating time tonight. They just coupled about half an hour ago and I'll try to time how long they stay connected and check on them in half hour increments.

Mr. Jeremy has been a busy mantis. I guess he figured out how to connect to the much smaller Trina. The fourth sister is even smaller...not sure how that will go.


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## kamakiri (Oct 20, 2009)

Well, I ended up checking in about 15 minute increments and they were disconnected between 9:55 and 10:10 PM. So they were connected for as little as two hours. Connection was made in near darkness.

Also forgot to mention that Liana made her 5th ooth today, 6 days after the last. The weather has been a little warmer lately with temps in the 76 range this past week vs 72 for the previous week.


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## kamakiri (Oct 20, 2009)

Taken shortly after they connected:


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## kamakiri (Oct 26, 2009)

6th ooth from Liana today...the first since having her re-mated with the same male.


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## yeatzee (Oct 26, 2009)

Sweet! Now if only I can get mine mated &lt;_&lt; 

Any advice? I fear they wont have a whole lot of time left in them.....


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## kamakiri (Oct 27, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Sweet! Now if only I can get mine mated &lt;_&lt; Any advice? I fear they wont have a whole lot of time left in them.....


I think the main factor in my limited success had been putting them together at dusk or simulated dusk.

Gently blowing on them also seems to help get the male started.

And from this thread:

my ghost has been adult for 3 weeks now



kamakiri said:


> She should be ready. I find that darkness seems to help. I try to put them together and mounted at dusk before the light fades. The frequency of 'S' bending and connection attempts is higher in the dark. I've been using a room with a skylight so there is a more natural fading of the light, but have done the same by using light from an adjacent room and progressively closing the door.This is probably overboard for what is needed, but I have seen the female ghosts 'calling' at dawn. And they stop calling rather abruptly when the lights go on or daylight is coming through the skylight. Two of them have also consistenly laid ooths in the morning, once there's light or daylight. So I think ghosts in general are very sensitve to the ambient lighting.


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## yeatzee (Oct 27, 2009)

interesting! I've only tried at night, but with the room light on. I'll try again with the light dimmed.

The male did notice her but after looking in her direction for several minutes he just goes on his own way.


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## kamakiri (Oct 29, 2009)

Good luck to you and yours.  

My 4th female (Quinn) was going to be part of an experiment to see how long before she laid the infertile ooth, fed on the same schedule as one of her previously mated sisters. Every morning for the last week, and since getting 'fat', she has been calling for a mate. I really hate watching the girls call, so I cancelled the experiment and had her mated with Ron. Oh, well.


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## ismart (Oct 29, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Good luck to you and yours.  My 4th female (Quinn) was going to be part of an experiment to see how long before she laid the infertile ooth, fed on the same schedule as one of her previously mated sisters. Every morning for the last week, and since getting 'fat', she has been calling for a mate. I really hate watching the girls call, so I cancelled the experiment and had her mated with Ron. Oh, well.


It's probally best that you did mate her. I have noticed with this species if they are not mated when ready they will lay infertile ooths rather quickly. They do not hold off at all when ready to lay. I have also observed connection time to be only two hours or so. My first ooth hatched this morning, yeilding about 15/20 nymphs. I thought two hours was rather quick, but i now have nymphs, so i guess it was good enough.


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## kamakiri (Oct 29, 2009)

ismart said:


> It's probally best that you did mate her. I have noticed with this species if they are not mated when ready they will lay infertile ooths rather quickly. They do not hold off at all when ready to lay. I have also observed connection time to be only two hours or so. My first ooth hatched this morning, yeilding about 15/20 nymphs. I thought two hours was rather quick, but i now have nymphs, so i guess it was good enough.


Thanks for the comments and update Paul. How long was the ooth incubating or when was it laid?


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## ismart (Oct 29, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Thanks for the comments and update Paul. How long was the ooth incubating or when was it laid?


I did not take exact record of when it was laid, but i'm positive it's only been about 4 week incubation time. I have kept my ooths pretty warm, around 85 to 90F and misted once a day. The final count when i got home today was 25 nymphs. I noticed these hatchlings were from the smallest ooth in the cup. I cant wait till one of the larger ooths hatches out!


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## ismart (Oct 29, 2009)

Another ooth has begun to hatch. So far there about 15 nymphs out of this one. At least now i know both sisters are fertile. It's amazing on how both ooths were laid a day apart, and now there hatching a day apart. Cant wait to see what the final count is tomorrow morning.


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## kamakiri (Oct 30, 2009)

Thanks for including your temp and hatching info. I'll probably bump up the temps for mine.


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## Solsticesun (Oct 30, 2009)

My lady pumped out a new ooth today... and I stupidly hadn't removed the other ooths... she chose to lay it EXACTLY ONTOP of one of the other ooths... Anyone know if I can rescue the babies who are now "walled in" ? ...any suggestions? Thnx!


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## ismart (Oct 30, 2009)

Wait a few days for the new ooth to harden. Then gently try to pry it off of the other.


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## Katnapper (Oct 31, 2009)

ismart said:


> Wait a few days for the new ooth to harden. Then gently try to pry it off of the other.


+1

And if dry doesn't work, I've found misting then waiting a couple of minutes will help encourage removal.


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## kamakiri (Nov 1, 2009)

Trina (FG3) made her first ooth today. 12 days after mating. She was fairly skinny when I got her, so I think she spent that time for oogenesis, since she did not lay right away. She did start a foam spot yesterday, but I don't know if she was disturbed. I'm guessing a 'false start', since today's ooth was interrupted because she started too low on the stick. Stopped laying and moved further up the stick and continued laying maybe an hour later.

Part of a test for oogenesis will be how soon her sister Quinn (FG4) takes to make her first ooth. They were on roughly the same feeding schedule, but were mated at significantly different times, 9 days apart.

And while I don't have a lot of experience with ghosts, I was pretty certain that they wouldn't know the difference between sticks and their ooths, so the ooths come out as soon as possible, except when I got that one munched by a cric  .


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## kamakiri (Nov 5, 2009)

Liana (FG2) made her 7th ooth today, 9 days after her last. It has definitely been colder lately 67-69 inside the house overnight. She has been well fed since the last ooth.


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## kamakiri (Nov 6, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Sorry I am late with this one, u both did fine, they will be fertile so don't worry about that. I didn't answer because I thought with all the post someone else was gonna, so here I am, late but here.The ooths will be fertile and in 6 or 7 weeks from now u will have babies, get the nurseries ready  and don't forget grandma will buy extra ooths B)


You're predictions are 2 for 2!  That first ooth hatched today, exactly 6 weeks from this post!  I'm sending you the 3rd ooth, because the 2nd one would probably hatch in transit.


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## kamakiri (Nov 9, 2009)

Trina is not proving to be a very smart mantis. She started her second ooth this morning, like her first, way too close to the bottom of the stick. *Sigh* I suppose I should give her better, more open options to compensate. This one was laid 8 days after her first.

Quinn appears that she is not mated, or not fertile... as I have noticed her calling again over the weekend and this morning. It also may have been too soon for the male. I'll try them again tonight, or maybe with the new, younger male.


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## kamakiri (Nov 10, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> My 4th female (Quinn) was going to be part of an experiment to see how long before she laid the infertile ooth, fed on the same schedule as one of her previously mated sisters. Every morning for the last week, and since getting 'fat', she has been calling for a mate. I really hate watching the girls call, so I cancelled the experiment and had her mated with Ron. Oh, well.


That mating a connection was not witnessed, but the male (Ron) did manage to dismount and go on walkabout. Quinn is currently connected to MG2 (Black &amp; white). Been together for about 1 hour now.


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## kamakiri (Nov 10, 2009)

Today at lunch I saw Quinn making this short little ooth:







That was it, and a little weird looking being laid on end. Maybe 4 to 6 eggs in it. I hope she tries again tomorrow and makes something normal looking...and on a stick.


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## kamakiri (Nov 12, 2009)

Quinn FG4 made her first normal ooth today 11/11 to follow the little one on the cloth lid yesterday. Liana made her 8th shortly after.


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## kamakiri (Nov 12, 2009)

Liana's 2nd ooth hatched today!...forgot to bring the flash card with me so I'll try to post some pics later tonight.

Was really nice to finally see a ghost ooth hatch!!  Too bad I didn't have the time to take them out for the shoot...had to shoot through the deli tub walls  quick count was over 20. I guess I'll see when I get home.


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## kamakiri (Nov 13, 2009)

Looks like 36 hatched from Liana's 2nd. Confuses me a little since they're the same length... :huh: ???


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## ismart (Nov 13, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Looks like 36 hatched from Liana's 2nd. Confuses me a little since they're the same length... :huh: ???


Wow! Thats a great hatch rate!  Maybe not all from the first ooth developed properly, and hatched out?


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## beckyl92 (Nov 13, 2009)

your so lucky!  

mine won't even mate. how long do the males live for? his been adult for about 10 weeks now.. i am screwed if he dies on me before my girls are mated.


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## kamakiri (Nov 14, 2009)

ismart said:


> Wow! Thats a great hatch rate!  Maybe not all from the first ooth developed properly, and hatched out?


Well, I was disappointed with the first of this batch since the only other ooth I hatched in April had more than 40. 42, IIRC.






Posted hatching pictures here


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## kamakiri (Nov 17, 2009)

ismart said:


> Maybe not all from the first ooth developed properly, and hatched out?


I partially dissected that ooth and there were some that appeared unfertilized, and some that appear to have been fertilized and developed or partially developed, but failed to hatch. Some of those that were developed were not dried-out...others were, but it has been a week and a half since it hatched.

As I recall from the last hatched ooth that I cracked open, every zig and zag of the 'zipper' contained two ova. So a zipper like \/\/\/\/\/ would contain about 18 eggs. This ooth should have had 30+.

Update:

Trina made her 3rd ooth today on the plastic grid. They've seemed to prefer the sticks I've included, but I've been wondering if they'd lay on the cloth lid or the plastic grid.


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## yeatzee (Nov 18, 2009)

could you describe this "calling" that the females do? I haven't recognized this behavior with my female, and she is more than old enough to begin mating.


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## kamakiri (Nov 18, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> could you describe this "calling" that the females do? I haven't recognized this behavior with my female, and she is more than old enough to begin mating.


It's bending the abdomen down (ventrally) so that the tergites (back segments) are visible. Presumably to help disperse pheremones. It sorta looks like when the females 'tap' their ovipositor to look for a place to lay, but without the tapping and walking around. Am I making sense?


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## kamakiri (Nov 22, 2009)

Update:

Liana made a weird shaped ooth on her lid last Thursday 11/19. Quinn followed with her 2nd on 11/20.

First batch of hatchlings are all L2. The 2nd batch are still L1.


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## kamakiri (Nov 25, 2009)

Trina made her 4th ooth on the lid. This one is pretty small. Liana's 3rd ooth hatched after shipping. Her 4th hatched one out today. I guess the rest will be tomorrow? :huh:


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## AmandaLynn (Nov 25, 2009)

My ghost still hasn't laid a second ooth yet. I thought she was going to last Thurs. but then she climbed back up to her lid.  I don't know what the hold up is. She's pretty fat, maybe she needs to be remated....


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## kamakiri (Nov 26, 2009)

AmandaLynn said:


> My ghost still hasn't laid a second ooth yet. I thought she was going to last Thurs. but then she climbed back up to her lid.  I don't know what the hold up is. She's pretty fat, maybe she needs to be remated....


When was the first one laid? Mine all seem to be from 5 to 9 day intervals.



kamakiri said:


> Liana's 3rd ooth hatched after shipping. Her 4th hatched one out today. I guess the rest will be tomorrow? :huh:


42 more hatched today! Too bad I got up a bit too late to get more pictures...


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## AmandaLynn (Nov 26, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> When was the first one laid? Mine all seem to be from 5 to 9 day intervals.42 more hatched today! Too bad I got up a bit too late to get more pictures...


She laid her first ooth on the 14th. So it's been 12 days now.


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## kamakiri (Nov 27, 2009)

AmandaLynn said:


> She laid her first ooth on the 14th. So it's been 12 days now.


Maybe remating would be a good idea. The male shouldn't be at risk if she's pretty fat.


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## AmandaLynn (Nov 28, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Maybe remating would be a good idea. The male shouldn't be at risk if she's pretty fat.


She finally laid another ooth this morning.


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## yeatzee (Dec 6, 2009)

quick questions.

I recently noticed my lone female laid two ooths. Now she has lived communal since sub-adult in one giant cage until recently (couple weeks ago), so what are the chances you would say they are fertile? I found what was left of a dead male below the female also before she laid the ooths, so im thinking he tried?

Another question... Because she has laid 2 ooths she should be more than old enough to mate right? I put her out of the cage with a male right next to her every other night and they have yet to connect. She has not been "calling" him at all as far as I can tell. What can I do to get them to connect? :angry:


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## kamakiri (Dec 16, 2009)

I guess it's been a while since I've visited this thread...

But I think the only way to really find out if they're fertile is to wait 6 or 7 weeks and keep them humidified near the end of that period.

I have more haching today from a female that was mated only once and I was very concerned that she wasn't fertile...


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