# Earliest mating for a female?



## Orin (Sep 6, 2012)

I would think female mantids could mate immediately after molting while the exoskeleton is still teneral since it is common for related insects (the male stil needs a few weeks). Anybody ever try this?


----------



## aNisip (Sep 6, 2012)

The female will not allow the male to mate with her...she will rip him off before he can do anything...mantids have to wait a couple weeks before they can mate because their sexual organs are developing (maturing) during that time...


----------



## Orin (Sep 6, 2012)

AndrewNisip said:


> The female will not allow the male to mate with her...she will rip him off before he can do anything...mantids have to wait a couple weeks before they can mate because their sexual organs are developing (maturing) during that time...


 Do you have any evidence whatsoever?


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Sep 6, 2012)

Plus, she has no eggs yet, so why would she mate?


----------



## Orin (Sep 6, 2012)

angelofdeathzz said:


> Plus, she has no eggs yet, so why would she mate?


 That simply is not true.


----------



## Orin (Sep 6, 2012)

Before answering please keep in mind I did not ask for unsupported opinions on when mating can take place. I only asked for data on early mating.


----------



## aNisip (Sep 6, 2012)

Orin said:


> Do you have any evidence whatsoever?


personal experience...my noob years: i was soo excited when she hit adult, i waited one day, i took my 3week old male and introduced them, and he mounted and she made him dismount and began to try to eat him ( i intervened and saved him)...then when my second female made it to adult i waited a day and then fed her a roach (because i thought preoccupying her with food would solve the problem this time)...i introduced male and he mounted, and she immediately threw thr roach down, and grabbed the male and i had to intervene yet again..then three weeks later, i tried mating them and she fully cooperated and allowed the male to mate....


----------



## Orin (Sep 6, 2012)

AndrewNisip said:


> personal experience...my noob years: i was soo excited when she hit adult, i waited one day, i took my 3week old male and introduced them, and he mounted and she made him dismount and began to try to eat him ( i intervened and saved him)...then when my second female made it to adult i waited a day and then fed her a roach (because i thought preoccupying her with food would solve the problem this time)...i introduced male and he mounted, and she immediately threw thr roach down, and grabbed the male and i had to intervene yet again..then three weeks later, i tried mating them and she fully cooperated and allowed the male to mate....


 I've mated mantids of more species and individuals than most anyone on this forum. I've never tried to mate females early. I was simply wondering if anyone had been successful at it. Also, I included the word teneral to refer to the initial period after the molt when other Dictyoptera mate.


----------



## Orin (Sep 6, 2012)

When I say most anyone I'm sure there are a couple people here other than Yen who may have started a decade after me but still kick my butt.


----------



## Ntsees (Sep 6, 2012)

Orin said:


> I've mated mantids of more species and individuals than most anyone on this forum. I've never tried to mate females early. I was simply wondering if anyone had been successful at it. Also, I included the word teneral to refer to the initial period after the molt when other Dictyoptera mate.


I'm pretty confident the mating will fail, as it did in my one time experience. It's like trying to get a mantid to eat right after it just molted. I lost the female afterwards due to the punctures made by the male. The exoskeleton is still too vulnerable. Mantids may be insects, but they are not like other insects.


----------



## Orin (Sep 6, 2012)

Ntsees said:


> I'm pretty confident the mating will fail, as it did in my one time experience. It's like trying to get a mantid to eat right after it just molted. I lost the female afterwards due to the punctures made by the male. The exoskeleton is still too vulnerable. Mantids may be insects, but they are not like other insects.


 You tried a single time, consider how often that would work with any mating? The topic of the thread is reports of early mating. Mantids and cockroaches are in the same order and only recently did anyone realize teneral female mating was normal for the other Dictyoptera.


----------



## aNisip (Sep 6, 2012)

Orin said:


> I've never tried to mate females early. I was simply wondering if anyone had been successful at it.


i have not been successful at it...plus, in the wild where it would be nearly impossible for males to find new adult females, males wouldnt mate with a female who isnt releasing pheremones ( they couldnt find her) the glands that secreate these chemical signals are not mature until several weeks after molting to adult...(in controlled envoriments, like when we mate them, the females are visually detected by the males, that is how the males attempt to mate with a new female)


----------



## Orin (Sep 6, 2012)

AndrewNisip said:


> i have not been successful at it...plus, in the wild where it would be nearly impossible for males to find new adult females, males wouldnt mate with a female who isnt releasing pheremones ( they couldnt find her) the glands that secreate these chemical signals are not mature until several weeks after molting to adult...(in controlled envoriments, like when we mate them, the females are visually detected by the males, that is how the males attempt to mate with a new female)


 Do you have any scientific references that prove your statement about pheromone gland maturation time? (Of course this will vary by species as some of the boxers are documented to mate in six days, so if you have scientific evidence for pheromone gland maturity for a single species that would suffice.) Also, many mantids like Tenodera live in close proximity so they'd see each other.


----------



## Ntsees (Sep 6, 2012)

Orin said:


> You tried a single time, consider how often that would work with any mating? The topic of the thread is reports of early mating. Mantids and cockroaches are in the same order and only recently did anyone realize teneral female mating was normal for the other Dictyoptera.


It appears that even if others stated from their personal experience that it won't work, it seems like you'll still not be convinced. Therefore, I suggest you try it and experience it.


----------



## Orin (Sep 6, 2012)

Ntsees said:


> It appears that even if others stated from their personal experience that it won't work, it seems like you'll still not be convinced. Therefore, I suggest you try it and experience it.


 You don't have to be rude.


----------



## aNisip (Sep 6, 2012)

.http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1801..like halfway through it explains the pheromone information (not gland maturation time, that is my AP BIology knowledge and i do not feel like citing an entire book... u can buy a subscription if you want to read it..it is in the development chapters...http://wps.aw.com/wps/media/access/Pearson_Default/1663/1703422/login.html)

from the first source "The female secretes a pheromone to attract and show that she is* receptive to the mate.*"


----------



## aNisip (Sep 6, 2012)

Orin said:


> Also, many mantids like Tenodera live in close proximity so they'd see each other.


documentation?

you _assume_ they see each other because they live in close proximity...


----------



## Orin (Sep 6, 2012)

AndrewNisip said:


> documentation?
> 
> you _assume_ they see each other because they live in close proximity...


 So you're saying they're 2-3 feet apart and they can't see each other?


----------



## Orin (Sep 6, 2012)

AndrewNisip said:


> documentation?


You can locate documentation for Tenodera adult population density in Prete, Praying Mantids 1999. I can walk in the field behind my yard.


----------



## aNisip (Sep 6, 2012)

Nature isnt just a blank white canvas where mantises stick out....there is foliage and other biotic and abiotic factors...they would most likely see "the other mantis" as a food source, not another specie reproducing member...


----------



## Orin (Sep 6, 2012)

AndrewNisip said:


> .http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1801..like halfway through it explains the pheromone information (not gland maturation time, that is my AP BIology knowledge and i do not feel like citing an entire book... u can buy a subscription if you want to read it..it is in the development chapters...http://wps.aw.com/wps/media/access/Pearson_Default/1663/1703422/login.html)
> 
> from the first source "The female secretes a pheromone to attract and show that she is* receptive to the mate.*"


 Your entire arguement is you "know" she doesn't produce pheromones yet, but you have no evidence and you admit your sources don't have any information on when the pheromone gland matures.


----------



## aNisip (Sep 6, 2012)

Orin said:


> You don't have to be rude.


and you tell other people not to be rude when you immediately shut down Nick? "you should brush up on biology 101" ...please be considerate of others on this forum, Nick is a very well renowned resource in the mantis community. I have heard his name mentioned as a top source for knowledge along with Yen, not many other people... I mean no disrespect towards you orin, but i try to help you in the beginning and you quickly requestioned me about my past experience with mating females early when i was answering your question "i want to kno if anyone has been successful" and i answered with my experience....


----------



## aNisip (Sep 6, 2012)

Orin said:


> Your entire arguement is you "know" she doesn't produce pheromones yet, but you have no evidence and you admit your sources don't have any information on when the pheromone gland matures.


your original question deals with earliest mating of females, my information above deals with a female that will not release/produce pheromones will not attract a mate and will not allow mating to commence. i answered your original question in my very first post with my experience...i believe that is what the question asked...


----------



## Orin (Sep 6, 2012)

AndrewNisip said:


> and you tell other people not to be rude when you immediately shut down Nick? "you should brush up on biology 101" ...please be considerate of others on this forum, Nick is a very well renowned resource in the mantis community. I have heard his name mentioned as a top source for knowledge along with Yen, not many other people... I mean no disrespect towards you orin, but i try to help you in the beginning and you quickly requestioned me about my past experience with mating females early when i was answering your question "i want to kno if anyone has been successful" and i answered with my experience....


 I had considered how to edit that answer when I posted it but to say there's no eggs inside a mature female displays a complete lack of understanding and I wasn't sure there was a nicer way to say that. I do appreciate your report but I was just asking for reports not a debate on opinions.


----------



## aNisip (Sep 6, 2012)

Okay, now that we have gotten back on course, any one else have experience? that was a long useless argument, but i think i won...


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Sep 6, 2012)

Orin said:


> I had considered how to edit that answer when I posted it but to say there's no eggs inside a mature female displays a complete lack of understanding and I wasn't sure there was a nicer way to say that. I do appreciate your report but I was just asking for reports not a debate on opinions.


So your saying I have a "complete lack of understanding" and that the eggs in a freshly molted female are ready to go, full size, and could except the spermaphore, hence she could be fertilized same day as the final molt? Where's the documentation to back that up?


----------



## Mime454 (Sep 7, 2012)

I read in the book "The Praying Mantids" by Prete et al. that he waits until his mantids have laid one infertile ooth to even try to mate them(he doesn't have time for guesswork because he probably keeps thousands) so that they will definitely be ready for mating. He even mentioned(I think it would count as a scholarly source) that mating them too earlier, if successful at all, would only lead to the female digesting the male's spermatophore.


----------



## Orin (Sep 7, 2012)

angelofdeathzz said:


> So your saying I have a "complete lack of understanding" and that the eggs in a freshly molted female are ready to go, full size, and could except the spermaphore, hence she could be fertilized same day as the final molt? Where's the documentation to back that up?


This what you wrote: "Plus, she has no eggs yet, so why would she mate?" There's no way to defend your statement except to claim it was an error.


----------



## Orin (Sep 7, 2012)

angelofdeathzz said:


> ...the eggs in a freshly molted female are ready to go, full size, and could except the spermaphore,...


 Eggs don't accept a spermatophore, the female has a spermatheca which stores the sperm. This thread is a request for personal experiences from breeders not a debate on basic biology.


----------



## Orin (Sep 7, 2012)

Mime454 said:


> I read in the book "The Praying Mantids" by Prete et al. that he waits until his mantids have laid one infertile ooth to even try to mate them(he doesn't have time for guesswork because he probably keeps thousands) so that they will definitely be ready for mating. He even mentioned(I think it would count as a scholarly source) that mating them too earlier, if successful at all, would only lead to the female digesting the male's spermatophore.


 Thanks, you make an excellent point: even scholarly sources can give bad advice. If anyone here suggested its necessary to wait for infertile oothecae first they'd be berated right off the board.


----------



## womantis (Sep 7, 2012)

i am too new, so please don't "decapitate" me for my comment/thought. if i am not mistaken, the shared characteristics of dictyoptera are the wings and chewing mouthparts. however, it would seem that immediately post molt, the female mantid's teneral exoskeleton would be too vulnerable to injury by the male's sharp raptorial legs, the distinguishing feature of the order mantodea. therefore early mating would be avoided to protect the female.


----------



## Mime454 (Sep 7, 2012)

Orin said:


> Thanks, you make an excellent point: even scholarly sources can give bad advice. If anyone here suggested its necessary to wait for infertile oothecae first they'd be berated right off the board.


He didn't say that you had to wait. He just said that he did so that he could be sure the female was fertile.


----------



## gripen (Sep 7, 2012)

Orin said:


> Eggs don't accept a spermatophore, the female has a spermatheca which stores the sperm. This thread is a request for personal experiences from breeders not a debate on basic biology.


It seems like there is been plenty of personal experience but you are only interested in one answer. The simple answer in my opinion is that yes it could maybe happen under extreme and controlled circumstances other than that the female will shut the male down before he can even attempt to mate.


----------



## agent A (Sep 7, 2012)

Mime454 said:


> I read in the book "The Praying Mantids" by Prete et al. that he waits until his mantids have laid one infertile ooth to even try to mate them(he doesn't have time for guesswork because he probably keeps thousands) so that they will definitely be ready for mating. He even mentioned(I think it would count as a scholarly source) that mating them too earlier, if successful at all, would only lead to the female digesting the male's spermatophore.


ok i disagree with this! i've had creobroter mate before laying ooths and the female laid a perfectly fertile ooth 3 days after mating that went on to hatch 46 nymphs

and what if there is no second ooth? what if the female lays 1 ooth then gets eggbound or infected or something and never lays any infertile ooths? it happened with me to gongies and creos


----------



## brancsikia339 (Sep 7, 2012)

I mean it could happen, but the female would most likely deny the male the chance


----------



## Orin (Sep 8, 2012)

gripen said:


> It seems like there is been plenty of personal experience but you are only interested in one answer.


 Only a single member reported their first-hand experience. I did not ask for opinions but first-hand experience.


----------



## Orin (Sep 8, 2012)

womantis said:


> i am too new, so please don't "decapitate" me for my comment/thought.


 Decapitation is pretty common here, it is the mantidforum after all. Your opinion is fine and I'm not saying it's wrong but the plea was for first hand experiences. I know threads go off topic here regularly so I was not surprised by a huge debate over a question I didn't ask but was hoping some people would read the original question. I also realized nobody might have experiences to report as requested.


----------



## yen_saw (Sep 8, 2012)

Earliest mating: Second day after last molt (female), male is 3 weeks after last molt.

Species: _Gongylus gongylodes_

Average hatching rate for ootheca.


----------



## Bug Trader (Sep 8, 2012)

Sounds like a controlled test is due. I have more than enough Idolos to test this theory.


----------



## agent A (Sep 8, 2012)

yen_saw said:


> Earliest mating: Second day after last molt (female), male is 3 weeks after last molt.
> 
> Species: _Gongylus gongylodes_
> 
> Average hatching rate for ootheca.


lucky! my gongy gal laid 1 infertile ooth and got eggbound and even after mating with the 3rd extra male i got from u never laid fertile ooths for me  

but she makes a nice piece in my dried mantis collection


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Sep 8, 2012)

Well I guess "he" told me, and put me in my place, but I'm not sure why? :wacko: I'm not a entomologist nor did I claim to be one in any way, I just responded to a post, didn't know that was so heavily frowned upon around here, it seemed to be a simple comment? The reason I never tried to mate a fresh female is I didn't want her to get hurt or reject the male and eat him, but Yen has proven it can be done, so yes Orin I spoke in error without knowing, I applied what I thought was logic not science, my bad.

Thanks to everyone that contacted me in support, I truly appreciate it!


----------



## yen_saw (Sep 8, 2012)

angelofdeathzz said:


> ...... The reason I never tried to mate a fresh female is I didn't want her to get hurt or reject the male and eat him, .....
> 
> Thanks to everyone that contacted me in support, I truly appreciate it!


 I wouldn't recommend mating this early as well for the same reason you mentioned. So i use the violin mantis instead of some aggressive species like Tenodera or Hierodula sp. for the experiment.My guess is as long as the female is willing to accept and store the spermatozoa (for future use) while waiting for the production of eggs, it doesn't really matter when she is inseminated. As we all know female can produce multiple fertile ooth with one pairing.


----------



## Orin (Sep 8, 2012)

angelofdeathzz said:


> Well I guess "he" told me, and put me in my place, but I'm not sure why? :wacko: I'm not a entomologist nor did I claim to be one in any way, I just responded to a post, didn't know that was so heavily frowned upon around here, it seemed to be a simple comment?


 Nobody is trying to "tell" you or put you in your place. The original post simply was a request for personal experiences not unsupported opinions or statements about biology that simply aren't true. You're always welcome to start your own thread but if someone asks a question in a thread you should try to answer the question that was asked not make up answers for questions that weren't asked. You are always more than welcome to start your own thread with your new answer or question. Going way off topic has been a serious problem here lately. This thread was a request for personal experiences.


----------

