# This one has me stumped...



## Krissim Klaw (Apr 28, 2011)

My dear sweet boy Keeper has me stumped, quite literally at this point. A little background info, He is an adult, male, Acanthops of about 6 months of age. Up until about a week ago he has been in perfect health. Within this last week however he has gone from being completely normal to having lost all six of his tips of his tarsus's/toes.

Initially when I noticed he seemed weak and was having a harder time getting around and clinging to things I was worried he was dieing. On closer inspection however I noticed both the tarsus on his claws were missing the tips in addition to the very tip of his foot of one of his back legs. This was why he was appearing to have a harder time getting around.

Now it isn't unheard of of a mantis to snag a hook or something and loose one, but loosing the tips of his feet on three limbs within a short period isn't normal. The only thing I could think of at the time was perhaps a cricket had done it to him. Since he is my shy boy and doesn't like to eat when there is movement around his cage, I do leave his prey items with him unsupervised. I only ever left one cricket at a time and they were always plenty small, about the size of his head. He has never had problems tackling them. Keeper is also an excellent flier and I had a hard time seeing him sitting around to get all three feet injured. In all my years tending mantises I've never had a cricket injure a mantis before. My crickets are well fed and I have had a breeder tank going for years now. Still, I though perhaps it was a fluke and the cricket that had been with him had been unusually aggressive.

Since he was having a harder time gripping things I decided to hand feed him so there would be no further risk of injury. I expected the issue to end there, only it didn't He continued to loose the tips of his other three feet one by one despite his empty cage. It has left me scratching my head in confusion. Did he chew them off? He lives in one of the LiveMonarch net cages and has so since he was a little nymph. There is no tape, glue, or anything sticky for him to get stuck on. The cage set up has been the same since he was little. Just what happened to my poor boy's toes?


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## hibiscusmile (Apr 28, 2011)

Humm, maybe he has some bacteria on his feet or something from the cages, or maybe cricket did hurt him and pieces will continue to fall off, doensn't sound good what ever it is. :blink:


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## massaman (Apr 28, 2011)

looks like the mantis may be on its way to a dirt nap or something if this keeps up and I would put them down if I had them get to this point or worse!


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## lancaster1313 (Apr 28, 2011)

Depending on his age and general health, he may well have let himself be chewed. I had a Chinese female that started slowing down in movement, but still had a great appetite. Once I dropped in a prey item, (I don't even remember what it was) and she jumped for it and her leg snapped in half, she didn't even seem to notice and continued to eat normally, only she was laying on her side. :huh:  

It is funny that I don't remember the prey item, but I will never forget the hungry mantis that didn't seem to notice that her leg snapped off.  She even bled a drop or two, but survived at least couple more weeks after the incident.


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## PhilinYuma (Apr 28, 2011)

It must be awful to have a pet afflicted like that!  I don't keep mantids as pets, but if Tucker's paws started dropping of, I would be horrified.

I don't like the cricket munching idea because it is highly unlikely that a cricket would score just the tarsae and nothing else. It sound like old age to me (just a guess, though) and perhaps lower humidity than this species is used to. If D. falcata, it comes from Panama where the humidity is frequently 80%+ RH.

As you can tell., though, he isn't suffering, so you may decide to keep him as long as he can take food.

@Paul: "Dirt nap"? I love it when you talk dirty! (See KK, we are trying to keep you entertained! :lol: )


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## Krissim Klaw (Apr 28, 2011)

hibiscusmile said:


> Humm, maybe he has some bacteria on his feet or something from the cages, or maybe cricket did hurt him and pieces will continue to fall off, doensn't sound good what ever it is. :blink:


I rather doubt bacteria though are there any cases of it taking off in mantids. My cages are so clean though since I only have three mantises I clean out any waste everyday.


massaman said:


> looks like the mantis may be on its way to a dirt nap or something if this keeps up and I would put them down if I had them get to this point or worse!


To be honest putting him down never even crossed my mind. Despite his lack of toes he is just as perky and active as ever. It certainly hasn't affected his appetite and he is more than willing to get room service brought right to him.


likebugs said:


> Depending on his age and general health, he may well have let himself be chewed. I had a Chinese female that started slowing down in movement, but still had a great appetite. Once I dropped in a prey item, (I don't even remember what it was) and she jumped for it and her leg snapped in half, she didn't even seem to notice and continued to eat normally, only she was laying on her side. :huh:
> 
> It is funny that I don't remember the prey item, but I will never forget the hungry mantis that didn't seem to notice that her leg snapped off.  She even bled a drop or two, but survived at least couple more weeks after the incident.


Adult Chinese mantises are walking stomachs so no surprise there. I've also had my older mantises manage to loose a bit of a limb when they get up there in age and aren't as resilient. It has never been off of all six limbs though.


PhilinYuma said:


> It must be awful to have a pet afflicted like that!  I don't keep mantids as pets, but if Tucker's paws started dropping of, I would be horrified.
> 
> I don't like the cricket munching idea because it is highly unlikely that a cricket would score just the tarsae and nothing else. It sound like old age to me (just a guess, though) and perhaps lower humidity than this species is used to. If D. falcata, it comes from Panama where the humidity is frequently 80%+ RH.
> 
> ...


Lol I was actually relieved when I realized the tips of his feet were missing versus my initial suspicion that he was flat out dieing. I would be far more stressed over one of my critters with paws having a similar experience. I think I've gotten rather laid back when it comes to mantises. He hardly seems bothered by the missing limbs except when he decides he just needs to hang upside down like this morning. I found him with his claws dug into the screen hanging from the top of the cage like a mountain climber. Other than that he is as perky and content as ever. This is probably a bad time to mention though that his nickname was Twinkle Toes.  I was wondering if old age might be playing a part though wasn't sure how long this species usually lives. The humidity could be a contributing factor also though I would have expected to see more issues with shedding if it disagreed with him that greatly.


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## Rick (Apr 29, 2011)

One of two causes. He is very old. When very old the tarsi often get brittle and break off. Second cause is that they are getting caught in the cage if it is a net cage or maybe getting caught in cage decor.


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## Krissim Klaw (Apr 29, 2011)

Rick said:


> One of two causes. He is very old. When very old the tarsi often get brittle and break off. Second cause is that they are getting caught in the cage if it is a net cage or maybe getting caught in cage decor.


I've never had a problem with this type of cage or items in it before though. He has been living in this cage since young I would have expected to see the damage being done sooner not all at once. Perhaps though it could be a combination of old age and feet getting stuck in the netting? He was always so light and delicate on his feet. He did enjoy filtering about his cage on occassion though so perhaps while taking flight the netting was holding his feet too well causing them to pop off from the sudden pressure. It still feels so random though. Has anyone had an Acanthops with a similar issue? Or even an old mantis that lost the tarsi on all six feet not the occasional brittle breaking?


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## sporeworld (Apr 29, 2011)

I had a very long-lived female Orchid in a similar condition, but that was becuase I used a metal mesh cage. I found 2 of the (white) peices still stuck in the mesh.


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## Rick (Apr 30, 2011)

So net cage? The tarsi are getting caught. If he is an old guy then that just makes them break off easier.


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## dgerndt (Apr 30, 2011)

Sorry to hear about the case of the missing toes! He's probably just getting old (like others said), and they're just snagging and breaking off. He'll be fine without them. Just keep him happy with free room service and he'll continue to be a healthy mantis, I'm sure.


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## psyconiko (May 1, 2011)

Sometimes they eat the tips of their own limbs(autocanibalism),because of stress,hunger,or a wound that does not heal.They keep cleaning too much(just like cats when they having health issues  )and damage limbs and tips.

The main concern is necrosis,if a wounded limb begin to rot,it is usually not just fall down but it may "contaminate"the whole body of the mantis leading to death....

Amputation works fine and prevent necrosis,but you have to nip/tuck(is that the proper term? :lol: )to hurt your baby the less

possible.


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## sporeworld (May 1, 2011)

Nikkko said:


> Sometimes they eat the tips of their own limbs(autocanibalism),because of stress,hunger,or a wound that does not heal.They keep cleaning too much(just like cats when they having health issues  )and damage limbs and tips.


Yeah, I thought about that, too. If not from neurosis, maybe from abrrasions or even an irritant (like soap, or beach residue). I use a lot of artifical plants, but sometime think I may be introducing more harmful chemicals than just using outdoor plants. Sigh.


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## Krissim Klaw (May 17, 2011)

Sporeworld said:


> Yeah, I thought about that, too. If not from neurosis, maybe from abrasions or even an irritant (like soap, or beach residue). I use a lot of artifical plants, but sometime think I may be introducing more harmful chemicals than just using outdoor plants. Sigh.


All of my artificial plants are from Exo Terra so I wouldn't expect them to be loaded with chemicals considering they are designed for peoples expensive delicate reptiles/amphibians. It is also a plant I've used with other mantises without issue. Now I know some of you are probably thinking. Krissim, we know you handle your mantises all the time, stress, soaps on your hand, come on. The only thing is I have always been rather hands off with Keeper. He is my shy little flutter butt and I know he prefers hiding amongst the leaves more than big old scary me poking at him. I fill all my handling needs with his two sisters, who have all their toes, thank you very much. =pI do feed wild caught though so maybe something he ate from outside afflicted him? There is always the chance something I fed was carrying an unknown pesticide or chemical. I've always known there are some potential risks to feeding wild caught, but I still feel as a whole the benefits of a more diverse diet outweigh them.

*Update*- I thought I would give an update on the dear boy. He is still going strong. Not much of a change minus he has pretty much lost the rest of his limbs on his claws. I wasn't surprised since they were honestly getting more in the way than anything else since he has been using the claw parts instead to get around. Outside of that however he still has a normal appetite and trucking around like any other mantis, minus the toes.


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## sporeworld (May 17, 2011)

My property here is sprayed regularly by Orkin, so if I DO use wild-caught food, it isn't going to be of the crawling variety. That might be a contributing factor as well.


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## Krissim Klaw (May 17, 2011)

Sporeworld said:


> My property here is sprayed regularly by Orkin, so if I DO use wild-caught food, it isn't going to be of the crawling variety. That might be a contributing factor as well.


*Hisses and makes big cross signs* Lol we don't use any sprays for bugs or much else, but since a lot of what I feed is of the flying variety they get around. I find it impossible to say no to those big mantis eyes though when the plead with me for some yummy butterflies, moths, dragon flies, and so on. They can be very convincing.


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## sporeworld (May 17, 2011)

Ha, ha. Yeah, I'm with you on that. Big ol fluttering bug is hard for ME to resist - and I don't eat them! Well, not regularly, anyway...


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## PhilinYuma (May 17, 2011)

Nikkko said:


> S*ometimes they eat the tips of their own limbs(autocanibalism),because of stress,hunger,or a wound that does not heal.They keep cleaning too much(just like cats* when they having health issues  )and damage limbs and tips.
> 
> The main concern is necrosis,if a wounded limb begin to rot,it is usually not just fall down but it may "contaminate"the whole body of the mantis leading to death....
> 
> ...


"Autocanibalism"? Neurotic mantids? Self ingestion to ease hunger pangs?

Sorry that I didn't read this interesting post sooner. I'm afraid that these advanced concepts haven't filtered down to Yuma yet. Do you have any literature on this, Nikko? Anyone? Anyone?


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## Krissim Klaw (Jun 9, 2011)

And my dear sweet boy, Keeper, passed away last night. His passing seemed like old age to me. Typical slow down period the last few days with waning interest in food a couple days prior. He was about 8 months so hopefully not to shabby of an age for his species. He will be missed.


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