# Difficult Molt? Help.



## LoveBug (Aug 16, 2014)

Frank is my first mantid. I'm a bit concerned. He is one week old today and he's molting. His legs are out and his body is almost completely out except for the last two segments. I've been watching him for about 15 minutes. There seems to be quite a bit of humidity in the cup, but I spritzed his tail end. Is there anything else I can do to help him? I'd be so very sad to lose him.


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## LoveBug (Aug 16, 2014)

Wait! I spritzed his butt one more time and out he popped! Hurray!

If anyone has any suggestions about how long to wait before feeding him or changing his paper towel, I'd appreciate it.

Whew ... good old Frank.

:- )


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## Sticky (Aug 16, 2014)

They hang from thier behind for a good while before climbing away from thier skin to continue to dry. I think he will be fine. If you disturb him now he could fall while still soft.

Be patient! He should be fine.


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## LoveBug (Aug 16, 2014)

Sticky said:


> They hang from thier behind for a good while before climbing away from thier skin to continue to dry. I think he will be fine. If you disturb him now he could fall while still soft.
> 
> Be patient! He should be fine.


Thanks! I took the top of his plastic cup off to dry it. It was quite wet from my spritzing. He has quite a bit of moisture on the sides of the cup itself, but I'll let it be, as you suggest. I won't mess with anything else until I see him moving around in a normal way. :- )

Whew, it's tough being a first-time mom.


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## Ranitomeya (Aug 16, 2014)

In the future, do not spray any mantis while they're molting as it can get them stuck to soft, wet exoskeleton. You only need to increase the humidity in the container by spraying the enclosure or putting a piece of damp, warm paper towel on the bottom. it's not necessary to get the mantis wet.

As Sticky mentioned, they remain stuck to their exoskeleton by the end of the abdomen for a while as they begin to harden their legs so that they do not get damaged while they're too soft. Insects also have exoskeleton lining their digestive system and respiratory system, so they are also likely slowly passing their old digestive lining as they hang.


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## Sticky (Aug 16, 2014)

Im glad he is ok!


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## LoveBug (Aug 16, 2014)

Ranitomeya said:


> In the future, do not spray any mantis while they're molting as it can get them stuck to soft, wet exoskeleton. You only need to increase the humidity in the container by spraying the enclosure or putting a piece of damp, warm paper towel on the bottom. it's not necessary to get the mantis wet.
> 
> As Sticky mentioned, they remain stuck to their exoskeleton by the end of the abdomen for a while as they begin to harden their legs so that they do not get damaged while they're too soft. Insects also have exoskeleton lining their digestive system and respiratory system, so they are also likely slowly passing their old digestive lining as they hang.


Thanks! This is great information that I haven't yet found on the web. I've heard about how difficult the first molt can be and I was concerned that he seemed to be struggling to get out and then he hung limp. Next time I'll know to wait it out. How long do they usually hang like that? How long should I wait before getting worried. Or ... once they're hanging only by their butt, should I just not worry at all?


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## happy1892 (Aug 16, 2014)

It is probably wrong that the first molt is hard. The last molts actually might be the hardest. And yes, once they are hanging by their abdomen tips they are probably molting fine. Only when their legs are stuck in the molt while still the body is coming out then it is a problem.


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## Krissim Klaw (Aug 16, 2014)

As others stated please don't panic spray your mantis in that type of situation again. Hanging from the rear like that is perfectly normal and being denied that chance can deform them during the drying process.

I'm glad your mantis was okay. Sheddings are actually easier the smaller they are. Less weight, less risk of them falling, shorter drying times, ect. The only reason I would say the first one can be a test is it tends to separate nymphs that are having other issues from those that will go on to be healthy adults.


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## mantisman 230 (Aug 16, 2014)

Believe it when they say the last molt is the most difficult, I am having issues for adult T sinensis sheddings, lost two already  , the first and second got stuck at some point in the molting process, it is rare for this at the last molt, I had plenty of correct environment options for them to molt correctly, the two that successfully molted are fine, but the female has the back legs slightly bowed and a missing midfoot. the foot deteatched itself for no reason this afternoon &gt;


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## Ranitomeya (Aug 16, 2014)

Once their legs are out and all that's left for them to do is get the end of their abdomen out of their old exoskeleton, you can generally relax as they've gotten through the hardest parts of molting. After that, all you need to do is wait for them to let go on their own. Just make sure that once they're on their own legs, their butts aren't still stuck in their old exoskeleton. The only thing you really need to worry about once they're hanging by the butt is the chance that they might get dislodged accidentally and drop before they're ready and get badly injured.

The best thing you can do while a mantis is molting is to leave it alone--disturbances can cause their old exoskeleton to disloge while they're still trying to get out of it or it can cause them to fall. It's tough to sit back and watch them go through the process and not worry, but that's just what you should do. Just sit back and watch and assist only if they fail or fall.


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## LoveBug (Aug 16, 2014)

mantisman 230 said:


> Believe it when they say the last molt is the most difficult, I am having issues for adult T sinensis sheddings, lost two already  , the first and second got stuck at some point in the molting process, it is rare for this at the last molt, I had plenty of correct environment options for them to molt correctly, the two that successfully molted are fine, but the female has the back legs slightly bowed and a missing midfoot. the foot deteatched itself for no reason this afternoon &gt;


Will the foot regrow at the next molt?


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## soundspawn (Aug 16, 2014)

Water can be the enemy of a young nymph, so be very careful with your spraying. A wet paper towel is like industrial glue when you are that small... the water tension alone can pin them down and drown them.

You want your humidity right, and it's okay to have some droplets around for drinking, but liberal spraying can lead to a lot of problems.


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## LoveBug (Aug 16, 2014)

Ranitomeya said:


> Once their legs are out and all that's left for them to do is get the end of their abdomen out of their old exoskeleton, you can generally relax as they've gotten through the hardest parts of molting. After that, all you need to do is wait for them to let go on their own. Just make sure that once they're on their own legs, their butts aren't still stuck in their old exoskeleton. The only thing you really need to worry about once they're hanging by the butt is the chance that they might get dislodged accidentally and drop before they're ready and get badly injured.
> 
> The best thing you can do while a mantis is molting is to leave it alone--disturbances can cause their old exoskeleton to disloge while they're still trying to get out of it or it can cause them to fall. It's tough to sit back and watch them go through the process and not worry, but that's just what you should do. Just sit back and watch and assist only if they fail or fall.


OK, thanks. I'll do that next time.


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## mantisman 230 (Aug 16, 2014)

no foot wont come back, these are the last molts, they are adults after this, and will no longer molt, has wings.


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## LoveBug (Aug 17, 2014)

Two more questions, please. I feel bad that, in my ignorance, I spritzed my mantis out of his first molt and forced him to hang by his hind legs as he dried.

Frank seems ok but he can no longer cling to the domed plastic top of his cup. He can still cling to the sides. Is this normal after the first molt or did I mess up his feet? I've also seen him fall a couple of times but I think he was startled. Otherwise he moves around ok.

When should he show an interest in food? I have several fruit flies in the cup, but he doesn't seem interested. He molted around 4 pm yesterday.

Thanks.


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## soundspawn (Aug 17, 2014)

His feet could be a little messed up, but fortunately every 2-4 weeks (or so) he'll molt and be given a new chance to fix any defects. He can regrow an entire leg, albeit over the course of several molts, but if his feet are damaged it is only temporary. Is the material any different between the sides and the top? If it is, you can give him something easier to cling to along the top - you can hot glue just about anything porous. Small sticks, fabric, etc.

As for eating, generally it will be a couple days, but there are exceptions in both directions. It's said that nymphs will stop eating for a few days before a molt, but in my experience that's unreliable; I'd estimate at least 1/3 of my nymphs have eaten within 36 hours of a molt and that's across a wide range of species. So short answer is if he fasted for two days before molting then he should eat today, otherwise it could be another day or two.


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## mantisman 230 (Aug 17, 2014)

You need mesh, and better for him would be a flat topped lid so he can sit on the lid, mesh is critical, he will not eat for a couple days perfectly normal, but his feet simply cannot grip plastic indefinitely, gat some Kevlar window screening for him, it should work great, gender can be determined by his fifth instar, should I say "it's"


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## LoveBug (Aug 17, 2014)

soundspawn said:


> His feet could be a little messed up, but fortunately every 2-4 weeks (or so) he'll molt and be given a new chance to fix any defects. He can regrow an entire leg, albeit over the course of several molts, but if his feet are damaged it is only temporary. Is the material any different between the sides and the top? If it is, you can give him something easier to cling to along the top - you can hot glue just about anything porous. Small sticks, fabric, etc.
> 
> As for eating, generally it will be a couple days, but there are exceptions in both directions. It's said that nymphs will stop eating for a few days before a molt, but in my experience that's unreliable; I'd estimate at least 1/3 of my nymphs have eaten within 36 hours of a molt and that's across a wide range of species. So short answer is if he fasted for two days before molting then he should eat today, otherwise it could be another day or two.


I'm glad that a molt will fix anything that may have gone wrong. As for the plastic top, it's the same as the bottom part of the cup. As you and mantisman 230 suggested, I'll add something to the top for gripping.

And I'll try to stop worrying about his eating over the next couple of days. :- )


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## LoveBug (Aug 17, 2014)

mantisman 230 said:


> You need mesh, and better for him would be a flat topped lid so he can sit on the lid, mesh is critical, he will not eat for a couple days perfectly normal, but his feet simply cannot grip plastic indefinitely, gat some Kevlar window screening for him, it should work great, gender can be determined by his fifth instar, should I say "it's"


Just to be sure I understand, are you saying he'd rather hang from a flat top than hang on the side of a domed lid? I'll certainly either use mesh on a flat top or add some to the dome, based on your response. And thanks for reassuring me about his fasting.

I'll get the hang of this yet. ;-)


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## soundspawn (Aug 17, 2014)

They certainly like flat surfaces more, so if there's a way to pull fabric across the bottom of the lid I'd do that.


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## LoveBug (Aug 17, 2014)

soundspawn said:


> They certainly like flat surfaces more, so if there's a way to pull fabric across the bottom of the lid I'd do that.


I have some aluminum screening. Is the aluminum bad for him? Would fabric or cloth mesh be better?


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## soundspawn (Aug 17, 2014)

Fabric is best for gripping and keeping flies in... but if the aluminum is fine enough it should be fine. Once he's bigger you'll want screen for better ventilation


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## LoveBug (Aug 17, 2014)

soundspawn said:


> Fabric is best for gripping and keeping flies in... but if the aluminum is fine enough it should be fine. Once he's bigger you'll want screen for better ventilation


OK, thanks very much.


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## LoveBug (Aug 18, 2014)

Update: Today Frank has been moving around more normally in his cup. Also, this afternoon I found him with a fruit fly head in his hands. A good sign .... :- )

I'll get him a flat mesh top for his cup and will try not to worry so much in the future.

Thanks everyone. From my heart.


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## LAME (Aug 18, 2014)

There's many materials you could use for your lid that are probably right in sight. For my budwing nymphs there were times where id take a piece of toilet paper, separate the two plys and rubberband a Ply to each deli container. Good way to keep fruit flies in compared to mesh screen. Many people use pantyhose as well... Once its eating bigger flies or crickets mesh is the way to do it.

main thing to consider is ventilation. I don't really use the t.p method unless it absolutely boils down to having nothing else.

Do you have any photos of your little friend?


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## LoveBug (Aug 29, 2014)

Sorry to be so late in replying to this. Frank went through his second shed beautifully and seemed to be doing just fine. Then last night I gave him a very, very small cricket from the pet store. He grabbed it and seemed to have a good time eating most of it. This morning I found him clinging to the plastic screen on the top of his cup. I spritzed a little water through the screen on the other side of the cup. A short time later, I found him on the paper towel. I thought maybe he was drinking water from the paper towel and left him. A bit later, although he hadn't really moved much, I put in a few fruit files. He batted them away and tried to climb up the plastic but couldn't. At that point I got the flies out of the cup and let him be. He died later in the afternoon.

What happened???

He seemed to be doing so well. Sad.


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## Danny. (Aug 30, 2014)

LoveBug said:


> Sorry to be so late in replying to this. Frank went through his second shed beautifully and seemed to be doing just fine. Then last night I gave him a very, very small cricket from the pet store. He grabbed it and seemed to have a good time eating most of it. This morning I found him clinging to the plastic screen on the top of his cup. I spritzed a little water through the screen on the other side of the cup. A short time later, I found him on the paper towel. I thought maybe he was drinking water from the paper towel and left him. A bit later, although he hadn't really moved much, I put in a few fruit files. He batted them away and tried to climb up the plastic but couldn't. At that point I got the flies out of the cup and let him be. He died later in the afternoon.
> 
> What happened???
> 
> He seemed to be doing so well. Sad.


 What happened is he ate a bad cricket!


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## LoveBug (Aug 30, 2014)

But Danny, why would a pet store bought cricket that I had gut loaded with cricket food be bad?


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## Ranitomeya (Aug 30, 2014)

Store-bought crickets should be quarantined for at least a week and fed a healthy diet for just as long--cricket food is a poor substitute for fruits and vegetables and crickets--and all other insects--tend to do poorly on cricket diets in comparison with a diet of fresh food.

If you've ever seen the inside of a cricket bin at most pet stores, you'd avoid touching them with your bare hands. They tend to be kept in disgusting conditions and dead crickets frequently get left in there to rot and spread disease. Cricket diets are usually fed in these conditions because it's abnormally resistant to spoiling--which is not a good sign for food.

There is nothing wrong with feeding healthy crickets. Most people that encounter problems when feeding crickets purchased and used them without quarantining them and making sure the crickets weren't sick.


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## Mantis Man13 (Aug 31, 2014)

This is why I don't feed my mantises grasshopers and crickets. I have fed wild caught ones to mantises and my mantis had watery poop and died


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