# Why not to use latin?



## Isis (Feb 8, 2006)

I am beginning to wonder why do you english speaking breeders use some strange names of mantids e.g. flower mantis or budwings instead of the latin names? Refering to a species by "flower mantis" is not accurate, it could be as well P. wahlbergii, P. ocellata or even Creoboter sp.

It is a deceiving habit you know ;/

I just noticed that it is more common on this forum than in my country- it's not like I'm pointing you out this fact or something but it's troublesome


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## Rick (Feb 8, 2006)

I prefer the common name as opposed to the latin or scientific name. Much easier to remember. After all I don't speak latin.


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## Mantis Keeper (Feb 8, 2006)

I for one have been trying to transition over. For species that I know such as B. borealis and G. grisea I use the latin name. For other things that I'm still learning the common name is easier. Over hear we have to break years of habits to start using the latin names. At school and at home we are taught, this is a treefrog. It is only now, when I'm a junior in high school, that I am actually in a class that is having us learn latin names. Hence the reason my recent frog post is titled with it's scientific name. I am gradually transitioning but unless we make a very concentrated effort, it is hard to get used to, and remember to, use the latin names over the common names.


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## Christian (Feb 8, 2006)

Hi.

There is a trend, however, that the use of common names is more widespread in Anglophilic countries. I do not know why, but it has a long tradition. Unfortunately, while the English-speaking guys make the effort to change to scientific names (you do not have to speak Latin to use them), now some nonsense common names are becoming more and more widespread in Europe. At least for mantids, I have an idea why: in earlier days, rearing mantids was relatively rare, and most breeders came from other pet groups, mostly reptiles or spiders, so were generally more experienced and used to scientific names. The few common names existing were also known, but used only for few species (e.g. _Gongylus gongylodes_). Today, many younger people are keeping mantids or start their hobby with them (what, I think, is a good development) and are mostly rid of foreign languages. They, and the pet traders, are those who spread the common names among the community. This holds at least for Central Europe.

Regards,

Christian


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## recluse (Feb 8, 2006)

I keep T's, roaches, scorps, milli's, and mantids. In all of the other invert hobbies using the latin name is encouraged. It is the only way to properly identify different species. I dont speak latin but I have learned the latin name of all my bugs and try to remember other latin names even if I don't keep that species. Common names can be very misleading and cause misidentification of inverts.


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## Johnald Chaffinch (Feb 8, 2006)

i'll be using full scientific names from now on.

christian, how come you know so much about the history of mantid names?


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## Jodokohajjio (Feb 8, 2006)

I agree that the scientific names are nice for specifically referring to one particular species without confusion, but common names have advantages as well... With many names, you not only have something to call the mantis, but a description to go by. (ie lichin mantis, grass mantis, dead leaf mantis--names like Brunner's mantis and Chinese mantis are, of course, not as descriptive)


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## Christian (Feb 8, 2006)

Hard to tell. I do the stuff for quite a while now. You come across the information automatically when you work with your "special" group.

Regards,

Christian


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## Rick (Feb 8, 2006)

I am not a hardcore mantis keeper so I will rarely use the latin name. And I know you don't have to speak latin in order to use the latin name. I have kept various kinds of reptiles for years and never used the scientific names there either. I understand people using all sorts of common names being a problem and causing confusion however they all have a proper common name and that is what I prefer to use.


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## Andrew (Feb 8, 2006)

Personally, I have never had a problem remembering the scientific names, which I guess is a bit unusual(it seems most people have a tough time memorizing them).

The only name i remember having a problem memorizing was orthodera novaezealandiae. :roll:

Thanks,

Andrew


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## Obie (Feb 8, 2006)

Personally, I think scientific names are easier, once you get used to the system. Take the "marbled mantis" for example. Which marbled mantis are we talking about?? What if a dealer decides to call them "mottled mantises" instead (it happens)?

I think the only way to distinguish the two marbled mantises (which are not very closely related) using common names - would be to call one The Asian Marbled Mantis, and to call the other one The Madagascar Marbled Mantis.

Well thats a lot more to memorize than just H. parviceps and P. aeruginosa! Plus the H and P are giving info about its relationships to other mantises. You can even misspell scientific names (a lot of people do actually) and STILL there is no confusion....

I definitely prefer scientific names 8) .


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## Jwonni (Feb 9, 2006)

i've got to say as a n00b i hated scientific names coz i didn't know what matis was being talked about i now know a few of the simpler ones now


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## KennethJ78 (Feb 9, 2006)

Hi,

As a moderator on a Dutch Invertebrate forum I can say that we use scientific names *only*. As Christian has said, I too have noticed that mainly American and Brittish breeders / keepers tend to use "common names". Personally I don't like using "common names" because of the confusion that comes with it...

For example:

African Mantis is usually used for Sphodromantis sp. But what exact species is meant ? Some people have S. lineola, some have S. gastrica, not to mention S. viridis... On the other hand: do you guys have any idea how many Mantid species inhabit the African continent ??

Blepharopsis mendica: Devils flower Mantis ??? not really, since Idolomantis diabolica is called Devils flower Mantis.. So that's why some genius has made up the following "common name" for Idolomantis diabolica: "Giant Devils Flower Mantis" :roll:

You know another common name for Blepharopsis is "Thistle mantis"..

Sybilla pretiosa: "Lychen Mantis" or "Cryptic Mantis"

Phyllocrania paradoxa: "Ghost Mantis".. it looks like a dead leaf to me actually, so what part is to be concidered ghost-ish ???

"Marbled Mantis"... have seen it in several topics: What species is meant ? Polyspilota aeruginosa or Hierodula patellifera / Hierodula parviceps ?

Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii / Pseudocreobotra ocellata ( 2 different species !! ) both referred to as "Number 9 Flower- or Spiny Flower Mantis"

Should I continue ? :lol: 

Obviously you get the point. "Common" names ( especially when more common names are used for 1 species ) are causing much confusion for people that are relatively new with Mantis keeping :wink:

So let's please stick to the scientific names.. they're not that hard to remember really


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## Pelle (Feb 9, 2006)

I agree with kenneth.

If somebody use the scientific names and you don't know what species he is talking about, then just use google ?


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## randyardvark (Feb 9, 2006)

ok, i do agree on the identification of mantids and how much a scientific name can mean.

i have been keeping mantids for around 6 months and have picked up a few latin names, but before i could reconise these, i relied heavilly on common names, not only because they were easyer to remember, but because it was easyer to relate specimins to names (ie dead leaf mantis)

and it was forums like this that used both systems which began to teach me the latin names, google can be terribly time consuming if you have a poor inet connection and an even worse computer that can just about handle one window, if a scientific name is needed it should just be asked for, and yes pet shops should give out both names to aid new keepers.

basically both methods should still be used to allow both beginner and 'hardcore' keepers to be able to use the same forums and swap vital advice


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## Jwonni (Feb 10, 2006)

maybe not for you kenneth but i do have trouble remembering

i know Sprodomantis = african (all the sphods look the same to me)

i know hymenopus coronatus = orchid

idolo... -= big one (giant devils flower mantis)

Bleph.... = little devil flower mantis

Lobata &amp; Dessica = dead leaf

you see the full long names i dont remember hence when i come on and ewant to say something i cant just spout all the latin names like the bottom 3 i know what they are by a segment of the name but i cant just remember and type the whole thing

like if i wanna talk about a bud wing right now i have no idea what its latin is

and ghost why does it matter that it doesn't look like an actual ghost (by the way have you ever seen one to commpare to the mantis?) but i can remember that except for the fact i just read yours i wouldn't know what its latin is and in 10 minutes i wont anymore

so yes it is easier as randy says to use both so n00bs know what is being discussed and experts know exactly whats being discussed


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## Christian (Feb 10, 2006)

Of course it's easier for newbies (a terrible word, but I do not know other instantly) to deal with common names. Noone can switch immediately to scientific names if he has used the common names only until now. But, a gradual accomodation to the "right" specific names is desireable.

Because: Kenneth said it already, but I maybe the following examples may be elucidating: _Phyllocrania, Blepharopsis, Idolomantis_ are easy. There is only one species. But there are 34 species of _Sphodromantis_ known, additionally 8 subspecies; 11 species of _Deroplatys_; 34 species of _Rhombodera_; and horrible 98 species and 6 subspecies of _Hierodula_.... :shock:

The term "bark mantis" refers even to members of several families (Chaeteessidae, Metallyticidae, Amorphoscelidae, Liturgusidae and Tarachodidae...). I think it is obvious there is no future for common names when one is going to cultivate more species from one genus. We see it already with _Sphodromantis._

Regards,

Christian


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## KennethJ78 (Feb 10, 2006)

*Jwonni said*



> i know Sprodomantis = african (all the sphods look the same to me)


And there you have the problem: Because of the similarity in their appearance it's easy and inevitable to crossbreed two similar looking species. And that's one thing I think we should avoid at all costs.


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## Obie (Feb 10, 2006)

This could be a problem with 2 different Sphodromantis species, as you mentioned. Hybridization is much more likely between closely related species than between those that simply look similar though.

Similarity of appearance to the casual observer does not equate to reproductive compatability (there can be subtle behavioral differences, structural differences of the genitalia, or genetic incompatability of the gametes...any of which can prevent hybridization and that is likely the reason why these barriers evolved in the first place). Many mantises that look very similar also have differences in their number of chromosomes, which can create problems with fertilization and subsequent cell division, even if courtship and mating are successful. Hope that makes sense  .

Obie



> *Jwonni said*
> 
> 
> > i know Sprodomantis = african (all the sphods look the same to me)
> ...


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## Isis (Feb 11, 2006)

Yeah, in Poland there is a problem with one of the Sphodromantis species. One of the pet shops was selling an unidentified species, so they called it: 'sp. Tanzania'. Well, there is no track now to the source of the speciesas well as to the shop owner and it's hard to identify the species without knowing it's origin ... it just have to remain 'Sphodromantis sp. Tanzania', and we know that all mantids with this name are the offspring of a single couple.

Anyways it's interesting to watch the evolution of this species in captivity because of this name- there is no fresh blood because we don't know what species it isso the crossbreeding is the only possibility!


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## Chris Dickie (Feb 12, 2006)

I prefer latin, although even that isn't always reliable

I've been told of people inventing latin names!

For some reason names are so much more complex with inverts than with other animals, with repltiles for example most people use common names as they almost always refer to one species, however people keep inventing knew names for inverts, lol

Indian Rose is now Wandering Violin

Thistle is Now Devils Flower (B.mendica)

and there, as other people have demostrated many examples of a common name applying to several species

On the otherhand P.wahlbergii and P.occelata are known as African Flowe, #9, target and a few others that evade me

Nomenclature is so confusing with inverts, lol

Then of course people misspell names which creates confusion, lol

Theres no easy solution, especially as scientific names often change as taxonomic revisions are undertaken

Recent example in reptiles is the genus Elaphe, I believe that has now been split into several seperate genii(is that right for plural of genus? lol)


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