# falling during molt



## hibiscusmile (Jun 5, 2009)

Just thought I would post this, during feeding this last week, I had 3 different mantis molt and all three found on the bottom of the container. They looked totatly dead, no hope, throw them away. Well I have a little heavy vase on my feeding table for a sick mantis to sit and eat while I work, and since it died I havent used it, I took each one of these fallen mantis, which looked like it was just starting to molt, and was very straight, sorry did not stop to take pic, and place it's feet on this vases flowers where it would hang or stick on, and within 15 to 20 minutes when i saw something moving out of the side of my eyes,it was them, each one I placed there, molted and was moving around on the plant. So thinking the mantis hit the dirt and there is no hope is not necessary so. There is hope if you catch them in time. Just thought it was worth writing about, ps, one was a macrops nymph, and two were asians.


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## agent A (Jun 6, 2009)

Very interesting. Now can you tell me why sometimes when my subadults become adults, the end of their wings are bent and crumbled?


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## Rick (Jun 6, 2009)

I agree Rebecca but you have to catch it right in time.

As far as the wings it could be they don't have enough room, they fell while the wings were growing or it could be something we don't yet understand. I sometimes see wild mantids with messed up wings.


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## hibiscusmile (Jun 6, 2009)

Yes u must catch them in time, I usually start by 6 30 so I must be catching the timeline. And with the wings, I agree, we dont know. One thing I think could contribute is maybe the mantis does not have enough strength to do whatever like fluttering to make them stand right, maybe they have a genetic deformity that causes it. h34r:


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## superfreak (Jun 7, 2009)

Agent A:

Dehydration and lack of nutrition are likely factors. That and lowered humidity. Perhaps youre not caring for them as you should be? Poor things...  

Make sure the enclosure has a relatively high humidity before a moult and that theyve been allowed to have a drink. They need to be able to pump up their wings before their new exoskeleton hardens  

Becky:

This has happened to me with several of my stick insects before. I always try to be aware of when one is getting close to a moult as many of them seem somewhat mentally impaired (not surprising i suppose :lol: ) and tend to always choose perches way too close to the ground!


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## yeatzee (Jun 9, 2009)

Whats with the hostility towards agent A superfreak? It seems every post I look at has you making an unreasonable comment towards him.

Additionally I don't think its fair at all even implying he is not taking care of his mantids due to cumpled wings. Infact I recently had a subadult molt to adult with mest up wings. All her sisters ended up fine and they have almost the exact same conditions which are quite good  .

As for the topic itself, I agree you need to get them at the perfect time. I've tried it with 4 mismolted mantids but only had 1 make it only to die mysteriously a week later  &lt;_&lt;


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## kamakiri (Jun 9, 2009)

I agree that a 'save' during a molt needs to be just in time. Usually less than a 5 minute window to be any help.

Luckily for me, I have saved a few since the bug room is in the home office. I've often heard the dreaded 'thunk' while on the computer. For species that don't require high humidity, I can often hold them by the feet. Some I have re-hung from a foam stopper. Ones that need high humidity can also be taped to a twig or plastic grid.

Most of the time I figure falls during molting are due to lack of good substrate to grip. So I consider it my job to help as it is not likely a problem with the individual mantis. For example, Europeans do not have sticky pads on their tarsi, so they need something that the tarsal claws will sink into. A fall is almost certain if one chooses to molt from grid or plastic keeper tops.


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## superfreak (Jun 9, 2009)

yeatzee - agent A was very aggressive in his assertions that others on this forum werent taking care of their mantids properly in a (unfortunately deleted) topic. i dont believe ive said anything particularly nasty. just reminding him of his recent silly accusations with one of my own


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## jameslongo (Jun 9, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Whats with the hostility towards agent A superfreak? It seems every post I look at has you making an unreasonable comment towards him. Additionally I don't think its fair at all even implying he is not taking care of his mantids due to cumpled wings. Infact I recently had a subadult molt to adult with mest up wings. All her sisters ended up fine and they have almost the exact same conditions which are quite good  .
> 
> As for the topic itself, I agree you need to get them at the perfect time. I've tried it with 4 mismolted mantids but only had 1 make it only to die mysteriously a week later  &lt;_&lt;


Go back over Alex's posts, mate. You'll get the idea  

Crumpled wings may be the recessive phenotype or poor circulation but most likely low humidity.


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## yeatzee (Jun 9, 2009)

Well in that case fighting fire with fire is simply immature and is not needed on these forums IMHO.

I doubt humidity was the problem in my case simply because the mismolts were with my indigenous species.


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## jameslongo (Jun 9, 2009)

Indeed it is immature but when you've tried to extinguish a stubborn fire over &amp; over again, a little back-burning can't be all that bad.


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## superfreak (Jun 10, 2009)

like i said, i havnt said anything nasty. whats with the hostility towards me, yeatzee?

and as for fighting fire with fire - no one should be flinging fire in the first place, dont you think?  

and as for the humidity issue - i didnt say it was definitely the problem here, it was just a suggestion of what could be altered to improve conditions for the molt.

why do people have to turn things into a brawl?  why join in? silly!


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## yeatzee (Jun 10, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> Indeed it is immature but when you've tried to extinguish a stubborn fire over &amp; over again, a little back-burning can't be all that bad.


Well I guess I havent been on the forums enough to see all that Agent A has done  



superfreak said:


> like i said, i havnt said anything nasty. whats with the hostility towards me, yeatzee?and as for fighting fire with fire - no one should be flinging fire in the first place, dont you think?
> 
> and as for the humidity issue - i didnt say it was definitely the problem here, it was just a suggestion of what could be altered to improve conditions for the molt.
> 
> why do people have to turn things into a brawl?  why join in? silly!


My post shows no hostility, just me trying to get to the bottom of what I personally see on these forums which is you getting mad at agent A for reasons I could not see.

Nasty is a term everyone defines by themselves..... what you think nasty quite possibly can be different than what others think  

as for the fighting fire comment... I agree which is why I posted ".....fighting fire with fire is simply immature and is not needed on these forums IMHO."   

I see no brawl...just a civilized conversation  :lol:


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 10, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Well I guess I havent been on the forums enough to see all that Agent A has done  My post shows no hostility, just me trying to get to the bottom of what I personally see on these forums which is you getting mad at agent A for reasons I could not see.
> 
> Nasty is a term everyone defines by themselves..... what you think nasty quite possibly can be different than what others think
> 
> ...


A well-couched argument of moderation, Yeatze!


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## Katnapper (Jun 10, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> A well-couched argument of moderation, Yeatze!


Yes, a fine job... I agree! :lol:


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## agent A (Jun 10, 2009)

yeatzee said:


> Whats with the hostility towards agent A superfreak? It seems every post I look at has you making an unreasonable comment towards him.


Thank you! It must be something with the respitory system because for the wings to expand, they must breathe to pump blood to their wings. And really superfreak, why be so harsh towards me? I'm only 12, and always have problems with males not molting, since I started, only 1 male became an adult safely, and that was last year, and the other problem is egg bound females. I don't need someone critiqueing my rearing skills, I'll figure it out someday, and I'm in no mood for mean comments, my budwing mantis died 2 days ago and I feel that he could have been saved. And I did change one post on a topic where I went a little overboard. But don't blame me. If someone showed pictures of them feeding a mantis to a tarantula would you go crazy? I changed a post there so it was less offensive (it went from "your sick, you discust me, blah blah" to "how could you?"). Wouldn't you agree that was a good change?


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## jameslongo (Jun 10, 2009)

agent A said:


> And really superfreak, why be so harsh towards me? I'm only 12, and always have problems with males not molting, since I started, only 1 male became an adult safely, and that was last year, and the other problem is egg bound females.


You have yet to understand the full implications &amp; pointlessness of some of your posts. You are 12 years old &amp; new to mantids so stop pretending that you know everything. You made a very bad impression when you became a member of this forum, and you know what they say about first impressions. On the plus side, I feel you are starting to become more humble &amp; mature. Nuture these facets of your persona.



> I don't need someone critiqueing my rearing skills, I'll figure it out someday


Then why do you start topics? :huh: 



> and I'm in no mood for mean comments, my budwing mantis died 2 days ago and I feel that he could have been saved. And I did change one post on a topic where I went a little overboard. But don't blame me. If someone showed pictures of them feeding a mantis to a tarantula would you go crazy? I changed a post there so it was less offensive (it went from "your sick, you discust me, blah blah" to "how could you?"). Wouldn't you agree that was a good change?


The answer to the 'Feeding Time' question is 'no, she didn't go crazy.' (Sorry for speaking for you, dear  ) I'm 100% positive mantids are part of a tarantula's diet. It was a very interesting topic to tell you the truth. I don't like offering my mantids as food, but in this case, why let the mantid suffer &amp; a spider go hungry? Thankyou Katnapper for enlighting me  The topic was put in the wrong subforum &amp; that's why naive mantid newbies began flinging poo.

Oh, and changing your post didn't do much good cos the topic was deleted  

What was this topic about again? *sigh*


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## superfreak (Jun 11, 2009)

sorry agent a, i didnt see the change. the mods obviously decided it was too difficult a topic for us feeble minded sheep before i could get back to it  

plus, i think i said something about realising that youre only twelve and backing off? or was that deleted too?  ah well!

and yeatzee:



> I see no brawl...just a civilized conversation wink.gif laugh.gif


then why the comment about fire and hostility?  :lol:


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## superfreak (Jun 11, 2009)

QUOTE (agent A @ Jun 11 2009, 10:10 AM) *

And really superfreak, why be so harsh towards me? I'm only 12, and always have problems with males not molting, since I started, only 1 male became an adult safely, and that was last year, and the other problem is egg bound females.

because despite all this you still decide to fling harsh criticisms about other people's mantis rearing skills (talking about that other user's egg bound female.). you made almost EXACTLY the same comment i did, though i toned it down a fair bit to avoid the kind of attention im getting from yeatzee here. i mean really, how difficult is it to see my point?!! you obviously don't like it when the assumption is made about your skills. will you stop doing it to other people?

everyone here wants to help you learn to take care of your mantids properly. but if you attack the skills of forum members who have been here longer than you (and are older than you - though i dont see what difference that makes!) then sparks are sure to fly!

(not to mention that the extremely high incidence of failure mentioned in your comment does indicate something wrong with the technique - though that can be changed with everyone's help and some practice!  )


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## agent A (Jun 11, 2009)

okay. i can be a little harsh at times. I do need help with my pregnant females because they never lay eggs! Superfreak, I was never aware that I was being harsh and being an embarassment. I have a female creobroter gemmatus L5 now that when I breed her, I don't want her to be egg bound. If I tell someone everything I do when a female is pregnant, can they maybe figure out the problem? And about my age thing, all you said was you agreed this was mantidforum, not court and that I must be confused by katnapper's big words.


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## agent A (Jun 11, 2009)

and also, we should discuss my issue about eggbound females on another topic (this one is about falling during molting) I will make a new topic in the health issues section called "Eggbound Females"


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## hibiscusmile (Jun 11, 2009)

Hey lets just call it a day and get back to the subject! We all make mistakes and lets let bygones be bygones! I wrote the "bad Mood" or wrong side of the bed the other day to help those of us who are .... humm whats the word I am looking for? oh I know ... acting like kids... so we could all realize how good we have it and maybe just try to have a little more patience towards each other and turn a blind eye to some of the things that are wrote out of anger or fear or whatever it is that brings this out, couldnt we just go back to enjoying each others post on the forum, I don't remember when so much ulgyniss has reared it's ugly head here, I dont think really ever. Really dissapointed and hope we all give each other a break. Please!

I have decided to add this, I send a lot of customers here, newbies who are interested in mantis rearing and the fun of the hobby, I really dont want to recommend something I am ashamed of someone seeing. Think about that. The forum is for all of us, not just a few, we must work together to make it family friendly, it wont be that way without much effort to control ourselves.


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## agent A (Jun 11, 2009)

Nice way to end this conflict.


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## superfreak (Jun 12, 2009)

*applause*


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## Katnapper (Jun 12, 2009)

Well said and agreed, Hibiscusmile.   

Just a few words of friendly advice though, agent A.  Olga is exactly right that you need to think about how your words in posts come off to others. You claim to have 4 years of mantis keeping/raising experience, and in your posts you seem to think you have all the answers, and the right ones at that. But with gentle conviction, I say you do not. I'm not accusing you of being a "poor" mantis keeper. I'm just saying you do not yet have the wisdom or experience to know, and thus be able to advise others, generally accepted and reliable suggestions for the best mantis keeping practices. You don't know it all. And it's irritating to keep reading your numerous postings giving questionable advice like it's fact. You need to step back and concentrate on learning more, and build your experience more, insead of trying to make everyone think you are an expert... because it's obvious you are not.  

We are not trying to "dis" you, put you or your advice down. But you need to realize that people will become upset if you try to act like you know more than you actually do, or you give unsound advice like it's the best. It's no crime not to be a mantis expert! No one is!!! We are *all *learning! Toning down your advice, and concentrating on learning from others will do much more for you than trying to convince everyone of your superior knowledge right now. And it will increase the respect you receive from others. Now.... let's just all learn together!


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## superfreak (Jun 12, 2009)

Ah Katnapper, if i could put my thoughts down in word the way you do, there'd be fewer wars on this forum


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## kamakiri (Jun 12, 2009)

Just a note to ALL the young men here:

Don't pick fights or argue with girls or women. You will always lose.

Why? Say you win the argument/fight. What are you going to do? Pat yerself on the back for beating a girl? Nobody else will. Say you lose the argument or a fight...well, then if it isn't obvious...you look like a wuss for losing to a girl/woman. No way to win, so don't do it.


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## yeatzee (Jun 12, 2009)

LOL @ Kamakiri

@ hibiscusmile - aww come on I had a witty comment coming :lol:  

Glad we got this all sorted out


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 13, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Just a note to ALL the young men hereon't pick fights or argue with girls or women. You will always lose.
> 
> Why? Say you win the argument/fight. What are you going to do? Pat yerself on the back for beating a girl? Nobody else will. Say you lose the argument or a fight...well, then if it isn't obvious...you look like a wuss for losing to a girl/woman. No way to win, so don't do it.


This is Absolutely True and one of the Paths to Male Happiness. However, it is perfectly O.K. after an ignominious defeat, to tell your mates, "You'll never believe what Mary (or equiv) said to me today. Well, I let her have it. I straightened her out all right." No one will believe you, but they will nod their heads supportively. This is called "male bonding."


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## kamakiri (Jun 14, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> *No one will believe you*, but they will nod their heads supportively. This is called "male bonding."


hahaha. So true. But that's an _advanced_ lesson for those who are married or about to be. I have a friend whom I support/nod in this manner, but I know the score...since our wives are friends too.


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## agent A (Jun 14, 2009)

superfreak said:


> Ah Katnapper, if i could put my thoughts down in word the way you do, there'd be fewer wars on this forum


Got that right.


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 14, 2009)

agent A said:


> Got that right.


Careful, young Alex! You can kick the embers of a dying fire with your bare foot and still burn your toes!


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