# Camelomantis slowly recovering but eye swelling getting worse



## Predatorhousepet (Jul 25, 2019)

I have a Camelomantis adult female about 4 weeks into adulthood who I found on her back, legs up at the bottom of her terrarium 2 days ago. She was still alive but very very weak. I had been worried about her previously because she didn't seem to have much of an appetite and only half heartedly swiped at her flies. I had gotten her to eat a few bites of a fly I hand fed her the day before but it wasn't much. I also noticed the black part of both of her eyes, the pseudopupil, bulging out so she's probably blind on top of this. I thought for sure she would be dead within hours, usually finding them like that is means it's inevitable. I tried to hand feed her a fly and she seemed slightly interested but didn't have the energy to take it from me so I tried mushing it up but she still wouldn't eat it. I offered her some water and she took a few sips so that was encouraging. I made her a watery slurry in a spoon using Repashy bug burger (I usually feed it to crickets and dubias) and she seemed to really like that, she ate a good portion of it then sat back. Later that day I checked on her and she was still on the floor of her terrarium where I left her but sitting upright and looking a bit more alive than before. Yesterday I fed her some more of the slurry and she ate a bigger portion of it. This morning I found her clinging to the glass front doors of her terrarium, I was amazed she had the energy to climb up there and hold on to only glass....a definite improvement. She's still really clumsy and falls easily but she's noticeably more perky today than yesterday. Her pseudopupils are still bulging, the left more so than the right, I'm thinking she possibly damaged them during one of her falls.

Has anyone else ever fed their mantis Repashy bug burger, it was a last ditch type of idea but I figured since it was packed with vitamins &amp; nutrients it was maybe a better choice for a meal than honey which is straight sugar.

Also wondering if anyone else has seen pseuodopupils bulge out? I've noticed changes in size of the pseudopupil in other mantises but it always remained flat. This is different, they look like black bubbles sitting on top of her eyes.


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## hysteresis (Jul 25, 2019)

I had one mega that got a black eye. Looked like corruption. Went through a molt with no change. Mismolted the 2nd time, unable to get her head out of the exuvia. 

Slow spiral. 

Also, ive seen this happen twice:

Sick mantis. Hand feed and water. Makes a slight recovery after a few days and I let it climb and even perch inverted. Seems the inversion costs the poor thing and it fails the next day.


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## Predatorhousepet (Jul 25, 2019)

I took some pics but imgur is acting up again and won't let me upload, I'll try to find another image hosting service.

The left eye has a large black bulge while the right one has a less noticeable bulge but both of her eyes look misshapen, bruised, purple and swollen. I very much doubt she can see. She's already an adult so recovery by molting won't happen.

She hasn't tried to hang inverted yet, just on the side of the glass. I was suprised to see she was even able to do that. She still won't accept flies but happily eats the bug burger slurry out of the spoon on her own without my help or encouragement. I put the spoon down in front of her and she bends her head and torso down to grab a bite then lifts her head while eating it which I see as a good sign because the first day she couldn't lift her head at all. I'm remaining optimistic for her recovery but also pragmatic enough to know that once they fall sick they don't usually make it. I've seen it too many times myself. I just don't have any experience with eye problems, first time for everything. It looks pretty awful when you compare her to her healthy sister and how her eyes are supposed to look.


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## Predatorhousepet (Jul 25, 2019)

Different angle, eating bug burger slurry






Her healthy sister of the same age.


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## hysteresis (Jul 25, 2019)

At some level, Mantodean medicine has to exist.

I need to be alien abducted and get in tight with my aliens. They'll teach me.  unk: 

It's amazing how powerless I feel when one dies idiopathically.

Sounds promising, though! Good fortunes!


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## hysteresis (Jul 25, 2019)

Oyyy just saw the pics. That's awful!

I dont know what that is. Both eyes, hey? Maybe severe enough eye rubbing that a complete breach occurred in both eyes?


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## hysteresis (Jul 25, 2019)

Mine had darkness in one eye, and not the whole surface. Just  part of the surface was corrupted.

Funny observation: He walked like a drunk, leaning to one side when the corruption spread.

As if his vision helped him balance.


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## Predatorhousepet (Jul 25, 2019)

Yeah, I have no idea either. Never seen anything quite like that before, maybe some sort of extreme mantis glaucoma?

It came on suddenly though so I was leaning more toward injury or infection.

Mantids are highly visual so it would make sense for them to depend on vision to balance and navigate. Right now she's wandering around on the floor of her terrarium kinda aimlessly and a little drunk looking, yes. She seems to locate the bug burger slurry by scent as far as I can tell.


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## Mantis Lady (Jul 26, 2019)

That looks very bad. :blink: I think she can't see anymore with those black spots. How is she doing now?


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## Predatorhousepet (Jul 27, 2019)

She's still hanging in there. She's able to cling sideways on the glass &amp; branches but has not tried to hang inverted as far as I can tell. I still can't get her to accept any insects but she seems to be doing well enough on the bug burger slurry, she eats a good amount of it every day and seems to enjoy eating it. Her eyes haven't changed shape or coloring much since the pics, they still look awful but at least they don't seem to be getting too much worse. The black part that was bulging out seems to have retracted a bit, it isn't as puffy as it was the day before. I have no idea if that's good or bad.

She was in an identical type of setup and diet as her sister when this began, exclusively fed bluebottle flies the last few weeks. The only previous sign anything was wrong was a loss of appetite the day before. Like her sister they were both pretty chill, no pressing up against the glass or excessive climbing around. Camelomantis aren't terribly aggressive feeders in my experience, more of a sit &amp; wait kind of hunter. 

I definitely think she's completely blind because of the way she crawls around, stopping and starting while kind of feeling around with her arms &amp; feet to navigate. I feel bad for her because mantids are extremely visual, losing her sight can't be easy on her. Perhaps that's why she won't eat insects, she can't see movement so doesn't think they are food. Maybe the bug burger stuff tastes or smells really good to her, idk...my crickets and dubias always go straight for it and will often finish it off before starting to eat the other types of food given at the same time. 

I'll try to post updates if anything changes but right now her recovery seems to have plateaued, she's stable for now I think. Hopefully, she stays that way but I am aware she could take a turn for the worse at any time.


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## Predatorhousepet (Jul 27, 2019)

The pics seem to be acting up, sometimes showing up, sometimes broken so here are the clickable URLs:

Front view

https://www.image-story.com/images/s_2/d8b42aba0900347a3fac_3.jpg

Top.view, eating bug burger slurry

https://www.image-story.com/images/s_2/d8b42aba0900347a3fac_4.jpg

This is her healthy sister, what her eyes should look like:

https://www.image-story.com/images/s_2/d8b42aba0900347a3fac_1.jpg


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## Predatorhousepet (Jul 27, 2019)

She's still acting about the same and she still has a very healthy appetite but her eyes are noticeably more swollen than they were this morning. The black part of her right eye looks especially bad, bulging out even more than it was in the first pic. I'm wondering if the swelling goes down during the night (maybe when she's hanging sideways?) then it gradually swells back up throughout the day while she's upright...kind of like how my feet get really swollen by the end of the day.





https://www.image-story.com/images/s_2/7ff9bdc7c6603c14a08e_2.jpg


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## hysteresis (Jul 27, 2019)

Can't be good.


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## Predatorhousepet (Jul 29, 2019)

As you can see from that last pic there's what looks like a purple ulcer on the back of her right eye. Today I got a better look at it, and tried to take a pic but the angle was a bit awkward so it didn't come out as clear as I would have liked.






I noticed that the purple of the left eye has swelled up more since yesterday. The black part doesn't bulge out as much but it's now like a blown up balloon where the whole eye surface is being stretched out flat. The pressure in there is probably causing her pain. It's hard to know.

She's still alive and continues to eat really well but her quality of life isn't so great any more. She sits upright on the floor of her terrarium all day waiting until I feed her. After she eats she perks up a bit and crawls around for a few minutes before settling back down to sit on the floor. She has stopped trying to climb on the walls &amp; branches.

I'm starting to wonder if I should euthanize her because even if she lives, she'll be blind from permanent damage and I have no idea how much pain this is causing her. The main reason I hadn't put her down yet was because I wanted to give her a chance but also to document everything happening to her in the event something like this happens to another mantis. However, I have to weigh her comfort and quality of life against that and I'm starting to think it would be kindest choice at this point. What would you do in this situation?


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## hysteresis (Jul 29, 2019)

Its real easy to ask, even easier to answer. But only you can really say. 

One eye, idve done as you are doing.

Both eyes, id have let her go.


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## Predatorhousepet (Jul 29, 2019)

Thank you. It's always hard to know when to euthanize a mantis that persists in staying alive but in her case I think letting her eyes continue to worsen would not be the best course of action. Since it looks like she has irreversible widespread damage to both eyes she has no chance of regaining even a small portion of her sight, a poor outcome even if she lives. To a mantis sight is everything so I'll put her to rest when I get home this evening.


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## hysteresis (Jul 29, 2019)

I've read that eye damage does not regenerate in subsequent molts. 

Im sorry.


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## Mantis Lady (Jul 30, 2019)

Poor girl.  Sorry for your loss.

Stil wondering what she had with her eyes. An infection?


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## Predatorhousepet (Aug 3, 2019)

I didn't end up putting her down, I was going to but changed my mind last minute. I was feeding her a last meal and noticed she anticipated the spoon coming towards her, she grabbed onto it before excitedly dunking her head in to eat...so she was able to identify the spoon well enough to know what it was. I reasoned she had to have some vision still then I remembered that mantids have 5 eyes, the two big compound eyes for detail and depth perception and 3 simple eyes in the middle of the forehead for light detection. The 3 simple eyes are unaffected so she can distinguish light at the very least.

The swelling in her right eye eventually went down and now some of the green color around the pseudopupil has returned so she may have limited vision out of that eye, hard to tell. The left one is still completely dark purple and has some swelling but it's not as bad as it was. She still eats the bug burger slurry every day and has a good appetite, she hooks her raptoral arms over the edge of the spoon, grabbing onto it. I tried offering a fly a few times but she still won't take a bite. She mostly sits on the ground still which worried me but she resumed hanging sideways after I placed a large flat piece of bark vertically in her terrarium. She always stays very low to the ground though, maybe she's trying to avoid falling again? She's never tried hanging inverted from the ceiling since this started but she has the ability to climb surfaces if she wishes, I have seen her hanging on the glass sideways. I'll try to take some pictures if her eyes later.


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## Jaywo (Aug 4, 2019)

Oh man, I have never seen that. I hope she gets better.


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## hysteresis (Aug 4, 2019)

@Predatorhousepet hopefully you continue seeing improvement.


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## Predatorhousepet (Aug 5, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> @Predatorhousepet hopefully you continue seeing improvement.


She seems about the same today. The almost black dark purple color of her left eye really worries me but so far it hasn't developed necrosis (that I can see) and the amount of swelling hasn't changed in several days. I've been trying to test her level of vision which is hard to do even when they have perfect eyesight but she does notice when I'm bringing the spoon close to her vs my empty hand. She kind of perks up when she sees the spoon because she has come to associate it with food. Maybe the fact that the spoon is shiny &amp; reflects light allows her to be able to identify it using her simple eyes.


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## hysteresis (Aug 5, 2019)

@Predatorhousepet Plausible on all points.  Keep on keeping on!


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## Predatorhousepet (Aug 9, 2019)

Well, whatever the problem was with her eyes she passed on today. I fed her this morning and she seemed fine, same amount of energy and enthusiasm while eating. A couple hours later I saw her hanging sideways on the piece of bark but just now (about 10 hours after I last checked) I found her legs up on her back again, no response, she was really gone this time. Maybe she fell again but it was too much for her to come back from, idk.

She made it just over 2 weeks with the eye condition and hadn't gotten any worse over the last week (that I could tell, anyway) but whatever the cause it was bad enough that it eventually killed her. Hopefully what she went thru will help some other mantis owner in the future, if anything to know when to put them down. I probably should have done it when I first decided I was going to but I wanted to give her a chance. She was acting somewhat normal again and after finding out she still had some vision left, I didn't want to end her life just for being partially blind. She was about 6 weeks into adulthood so she did live most of her lifespan at least.


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## hysteresis (Aug 9, 2019)

Well there we are. Phew!

I wonder if there'll come a time where I won't even attempt to rehabilitate a mismolt? Will I become comfortable allowing cannibalism in a big hatch? I accidentally squished an i2 orchid, so I fed it to an i4 idolo. Teeny snack. 

I stopped naming mantises a long time ago. 

I still talk to our Guinea Pigs though. 

Still a bummer to lose a mantis. Sorry!


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## Predatorhousepet (Aug 9, 2019)

I never named my mantises (I only name pets that would respond to a name) but yeah it still sucks to lose one, its something you've cared for and put a lot of time and effort into keeping alive so you feel like you've failed when it dies. Breeding them results in tons of deaths and I've gotten used to it happening I guess but I still try to save them when there's any sort of chance they'll make it. Mismolts are the worst because they're usually horribly deformed and seeing them struggle against their own body is heartbreaking.


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## hysteresis (Aug 9, 2019)

Predatorhousepet said:


> Breeding them results in tons of deaths and I've gotten used to it happening I guess but I still try to save them when there's any sort of chance they'll make it.


I've only lost a male one time so far. I do care deeply for each individual I keep, but I didn't even blink at his horrible death, as I had 4 males to the one female. Had I lost the lone female instead of the male, id have gone mental. LOL!  Funny how my focus has shifted from the individual, to the species in culture.

But I have cared DEEPLY at every pairing. I have strived to "protecc". I don't think I could throw a pair of an aggressive species into an enclosure and just close the door.

I never would've thought i'd keep bugs like this.


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## Predatorhousepet (Aug 10, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> I've only lost a male one time so far. I do care deeply for each individual I keep, but I didn't even blink at his horrible death, as I had 4 males to the one female. Had I lost the lone female instead of the male, id have gone mental. LOL!  Funny how my focus has shifted from the individual, to the species in culture.


I was mainly referring to all the deaths after hatching an ooth rather than males getting eaten. I've come to expect losses of roughly 25% to 50% of the hatchlings, some from exhaustion, some because they won't eat, some from mismolts, some from cannibalism, some from unknown causes, even a few escapes but certain species have better hatchling survival rates than others. The worst % loss I ever had was from a Tenodera sinensis ooth (given to me for free)...lost 60% within 24 hours but only 10 made it to adulthood out of over 200!

I have lost a few males due to being eaten or fatally damaged by their mates but it really isn't a huge problem. Out of all species I've bred I had the most problems with barks, orchids, and ghosts trying to eat or fight their mate but for the most part the male almost always makes it out alive. I watch the couple closely until he mounts her THEN leave them alone, checking every so often to see if he has dismounted yet. This method seems to work as the biggest danger is in the approach.

The last breeding male (Galinthias amoena) I had that died was from old age rather than cannibalism, he had been mated with 2 different females at least 6 times each but didn't live long enough to get mated with the third female. Before that I mated a ghost female with 2 different males, one male is still alive but the other also died from old age. 

But yes I understand what you mean about shifting concern to the propagation of the species rather than the individual. I find I am much less upset when a female has laid several fertile ooths then dies rather than if she hadn't laid anything at all. On the other hand it's super frustrating when the female kills the only male you had before they had a chance to mate, especially after paying a lot of money for that hard-to-find expensive meal of hers. (I just sighed and let her finish eating him.)


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