# Chinese Mantis Group Enclosure?



## avn (Apr 19, 2016)

Mantids and Womantids,

I hatched my first chinese ootheca yesterday!   I am the proud parent to 150 little nightmares. 

I'm planning on keeping some as pets, sending as many as I can to adoptive parents, and then releasing the rest.  

I've got them chilling right now in a 10 gallon aquarium. 20" long and 10" wide.  

I tried feeding them fruit flies, but they didn't seem hungry. They wouldn't take them even when they passed right in front of their face. I'll try again tonight. 

I'm expecting some to die in the first week or two, and then after they go through their first molt, I'll choose the strongest to be pets and release the rest.

My question is - after this crew of babies is gone, how many chinese mantises can I keep in a 10 gallon aquarium? I know this species likes to eat each-other...

will they still do that if they have a whole 10 gallon to roam in? 

I considered putting a screen down the middle of the cage to separate it into two, but I'd like to avoid that if possible - the terrarium is much prettier without a divider. 

Does anyone have any experience with chinese mantises in large enclosures? Do you think I could get by with 3 or 4 in there?

(I'm assuming I'm dealing with Tenodera Sinensis here. It was a Orcon ooth from Orchard Supply and hardware, and there wasn't a species label.)


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## mantisman 230 (Apr 19, 2016)

Yeah, they will eat each other no matter how big the enclosure is xD They probably aren't eating because there is such a density in there. These guys stress each other out when kept together. Often never eating. But when larger, will gladly eat each other.


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## CosbyArt (Apr 19, 2016)

Well a photo of the ooth would clear up any confusion as they are easy to tell apart with a bit of experience; although, from a local store it would be a local species, with Tenodera sinensis sadly being the most common. I attached one of my photos below, compare what you have to the ooths in it.

The nymphs can only be housed separate once they molt once or twice, which is L2 or L3 - after that the chances for cannibalism goes up dramatically (and even at L1-L3 it will happen some). A larger habitat will make no difference on the outcome, if they can get physically to each other you will only have one left very quickly. The Tenodera sinensis is not a communal species at all.

I've had a few ooths that I collected from my yard that hatched lately. From those two ooths between the weak/problem nymphs dying off, and a bit of cannibalism as I have them housed in a large 5 gallon container, I am down to a few dozen left (and they are just molting to L3 and are fed daily).  

View attachment 7375


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## mantisman 230 (Apr 19, 2016)

I myself am building a 1.5 gallon hatchery  but this will be used for griffins, which have a pretty big hatch.


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## HunniBunnixo (Apr 19, 2016)

Chinese Mantises in one enclosure together will most definitely exhibit cannibalism as an adult. Even keeping them well fed. lol. In my personal experience of keeping them and other species, they are one of the more aggressive eaters and will attack others. 

I REALLY love your idea though of using the 10 gal tank as a large terrarium for your mantises. I love to give my mantises as much room as possible to roam in and stuff to hang on. (It has to suck living in cubicle..lol  Gotta keep it interesting for em.   ) As much as you hate to put a divider in, it may be the _safest_ and _surest _way to prevent the loss of any of your pets. There is lots of great ideas on this forum on how to utilize the space of 10 gal tank for multiple mantises. Let it inspire you, and maybe you can come up with an alternative or a way to keep them in the tank. Safely, of course. lol


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## avn (Apr 20, 2016)

CosbyArt thanks for the picture. It's definitely a Chinese mantis ootheca.

Yeah I love this big enclosure... But I hear everyone loud and clear- can't keep more than 1 Chinese per space.

not sure yet if I'll divide it in two or get a second terrarium (for the office maybe?) 

I put a bunch of sculptures I made in here. Finally a place to store my nick knacks!


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## avn (Apr 20, 2016)

Oh also... They started eating! Guess they just needed some time.


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## mantisman 230 (Apr 20, 2016)

They don't feed for a couple days after hatching. But if you really want to maximize number, you can separate them into smaller containers to be kept alone. Sterilite makes awesome containers for this purpose. You would have to add mesh and air vents, but they last a while.


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## avn (Apr 21, 2016)

:-( 

i used some duck tape on the lid to keep the lights on the tank and a couple mantises ran out when I opened the lid. 3 got stuck on the duct tape. I was able to save one but the other two were completely stuck... I had to put them out of their misery. 

I know most of these guys won't survive and are probably gonna be eaten by eachother but still, feel bad about that. I won't ever use tape with mantises again. 

I'm getting a bunch of cups ready so I can adopt out a bunch of mantises. If anyone wants a Chinese mantis nymph in the SF  Bay Area, let me know


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## avn (Apr 21, 2016)

Oh man I just realized I was using scotch tape to attach the paper towels to the kids of the deli cups. Gotta change to hot glue and cheesecloth I guess...


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## mantisman 230 (Apr 21, 2016)

paper towel can he hotglued easily. I fully seal a piece to each lid, and punch 5-8 holes in it afterwards.


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## CosbyArt (Apr 21, 2016)

Glad to see you are making progress with your nymphs and have them properly identified. Sorry to hear you learned about tape the hard way though. The only tip besides avoiding any tape, is to use a toothpick to try to dislodge their feet if it happens.

To save money on individual habitats you can use cheap plastic drinking cups for about $2 and have more than enough for all the nymphs. One of the tricks that makes it possible to separate tons of nymphs.  Of course the next trick is to learn how to feed that many individually housed nymphs, and even with the best tricks can take hours. That is one reason many will wait to separate them at L2 or L3, when there are many less to worry about.


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## mantisman 230 (Apr 21, 2016)

I will be doing the funnel fruit fly method xD


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## avn (Apr 22, 2016)

All my nymphs are on the walls, ceiling and foliage and all my fruit flies are on the ground. They're chowing on some mashed potatoes I left in the enclosure. 

I've seen a couple eating. I hope the rest of them are eating and I just don't see it.

i'm gonna make some nymph cups this weekend using one of these designs and pull out some from the main enclosure so I know that they, at least, are eating.  I think I have about 10 people who want a mantis as a pet


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## Sarah K (Apr 22, 2016)

avn said:


> All my nymphs are on the walls, ceiling and foliage and all my fruit flies are on the ground. They're chowing on some mashed potatoes I left in the enclosure.


When my fruit flies like to hang out at the bottom, while nymphs are elsewhere, I usually will blow on the fruit flies a bit, which encourages them to start moving and climbing the walls, where the nymphs usually are.


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## avn (Apr 25, 2016)

Updates on my progress - 

My brother got me a second terrarium for my birthday, this one made out of acrylic. I like it a lot, and I think the mantids like it too (they seem to be able to walk on it better).

I put about half of my mantids in that new terrarium, and this time I didn't decorate it.  I have it just paper towels, mantids and fruit flies.  This really helps the mantids find something to eat, and I can see they are eating. 

I've started making little mantid habitats and little fruit fly cultures to give to adoptive parents.  The mantid habitats I'm making out of these rubbermaid containers because they were the deepest thing I could find (no deli cups at walgreens OR target!) (http://www.rubbermaid.com/en-US/shop-products/food-storage/takealongs®/takealongs®-squares)

I'm cutting a hole on the top and hotglueing window screen mesh over it. 

I noticed my fruit fly colonies have started to really mold!  I made a 'main' one a few weeks ago that seems to be doing ok, but the ones I spawned off of that one are getting really moldy.  They're deli cups with paper towel over a hole in the lid.   The food is instant mashed potatoes with some vinegar.  According to some posts on this forum, apparently the mold is fine?  Is that right? It's big fluffy white mold, looks pretty nasty.

 Those ones haven't really started to produce flies yet. 

Is there something I'm doing wrong with my ff colonies? Do paper towels not provide enough ventilation?

I've noticed some of my mantids seem a little listless and won't eat even if there is a fly in front of them.  Others eat really well.

I think they should molt sometime this week. They hatched 7 days ago, and I've read that they molt after 8 days if well fed (4 ff/day) , 12 days if poorly fed (1 ff/day) .  I'm probably in the "poorly fed" category because I just don't have that many fruit flies. 

  So I hopefully will be seeing some molts this week


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## CosbyArt (Apr 25, 2016)

The containers should get you by for a bit, until they molt and cannibalism really kicks in until individually separated. The window mesh is not standard window mesh right? Otherwise, the fruit flies will escape as soon as you feed them - for that you have to use a micro mesh, coffee filters, paper towel, or a fine fabric like I use organza fabric.

The mold is usually turned over by the FF pupae and adults once they are established, so it doesn't become a issue. In the meantime you can mix the mold with the top crust layer to get rid of yourself. In the future adding a pinch of bakers yeast (what I use) or brewers yeast (said to be better if you can find it) will help keep mold at bay until the FF take over.

As long as you see some nymphs eat, that means you are doing fine. They don't all eat at the same time or every-time even (unless you mark each nymph somehow safely and watch it 24 hours - I wouldn't worry), especially if they are nearing a molt.


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## avn (Apr 25, 2016)

It's fiberglass window screen from home depot. I bet it's "standard window screen".

I decided not to go with the aluminum since it's a nymph house and your mantis enclosure guide (_VERY_ HELPFUL BTW!!) says the aluminum will hurt their feet.

I thought the fruit flies would escape from the mantis habitat through the screen but I haven't seen them do it yet.  I let a ff run around on top of the screen and it didn't fall through. I'll have to layer it with cheesecloth if it turns out they can get out. 

How much do you think individual mantises have 'personality'? I was thinking that when it comes time to choose ones to keep, maybe I should try to choose one whose behavior is desirable in some way.  Perhaps ones that are more active, or ones that prefer to stand on the ground rather than the wall (so they can be seen better), or something else.

Do you think stuff like that is mantis "personality" and would stay true over the course of it's life, or do you think they're just kind of random?


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## CosbyArt (Apr 25, 2016)

I myself user fiberglass screen until they reach adults, then I typical switch them to aluminum screen (at least any species about 3" or larger as adults). I do that for a variety of reasons - the most common being adult males often try to bite they way out of fiberglass screen to mate, and I've noticed my adult females tend to like the aluminum when laying ooths (I guess as it is more of a stable mesh holding it's shape).

Glad to hear the DIY guide helps. I really should update it, but that will require a lot more time and effort so I keep putting it off. I guess when it gets dated, it will be time to update it with new/more information.  

Sounds like either the fruit flies are behaving as you are watching, or your mesh is smaller than typical. I tend to layer my ventilation areas, and often see many Melanogaster and a few Hydei between the layers. Good that you have a plan in place if they do make a escape.

Regarding mantid individuality/personality I think many nymphs in time (at least some of the majority) develop quirks or something that sets them apart from the others. That said some I've had still stand out even from my other pet mantids through the years. If it is caused by their environment, handling by me, or even a physical trait, they seem to keep their personality as they age and even further develop it even further.

For example from my current batch of Chinese nymphs that are now L3, I had one that would sit and wait for me at the feeder hole every time. The nymph figured out that I misted, and fed through it, and if it was around it could come out for a bit too. It started that as a late L1, and kept it up until L3, at which point I put it into it's own habitat. I also had another that was similar and would run to the middle of the large communal tank lid and wait for the flies to come to it to eat. My wife named them Thing 1 &amp; 2, from the Cat and the Hat books.  

Rather if it is a random or developed personality traits/quirks, the mantids I kept as pets usually kept it up for their entire lives. They also picked up new traits/quirks as well as it aged, if it was a learned behavior or something more is beyond me. I have learned though if there is something about a nymph that is unique, it will continue to do more things as it ages - while the others seem to are always "simply there" if that makes sense.


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## avn (Apr 28, 2016)

Ok so I have been paying more attention to mantis personality and the difference is remarkable! So are consistently a lot more active than others and some are a lot more willing to stand on my hand than others who are always jumping away.

I've been doing a system where whenever I open a cage and a mantis runs onto my hand, I put it in a new cage... A more prestigious cage.   The ones in the highest cage (have run onto my hand a few times each) are a lot more interactive and will stand on my hand and eat out of my hand.

 I think these are the ones I'll keep. I've already given some of them names.


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## CosbyArt (Apr 28, 2016)

Glad to see you found some keepers from your hatch. It is odd how they can stand out from the others, but they tend to develop personalities. I'd be interested to see what the insect psychology books say, but at prices of $50-$200 for each book used on Amazon on the topic I haven't bothered to get one.  

The only trick I learned on picking out names is to find name lists like this one. It lists the top 100 names for girls, they have them for boys as well. That way I am not using the same one twice very quickly, and I don't have problems deciding on one.


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## avn (May 3, 2016)

I got a bunch of molts now! 

I was searching a lot for how long it would take for them to molt for the first time. So: 

For or the record, my Chinese mantis nymphs hatched  between 17 and 18 April and they went through their first molt from 2-3 May.   So that's 14-15 days later. 

During that time I fed them probably 1-2 fruit flies per day. I would have fed more but my colonies weren't mature when they hatched. I bought another colony the day they hatched but it was a fresh one... A fruit fly colony ramps up on 12 days which is about as long as the mantises are in their first instar.

i estimated I started with around 120 from my ootheca. I now have about 50. Survival rate of 40%... 

Lessons I learned:

- have fruit fly colonies ready to go when your ooth hatches. These take about two to three weeks to ramp up, so prepare for that. If it's an emergency, buy an already producing culture, don't buy a newly made one.

- petco sells cultures from "the fruit fly company". They produce really well, but they put them on the shelves the day they make them, instead of waiting for them to start making new flies. You can tell a culture is making new flies if it has pupae all over the walls.

- Home made fruit fly colonies are fine but the mashed potatoe recipe is semiliquid, which means you can't turn the culture and shake it to get the flies out. Commercial fruit flie mediums have an advantage here.

- mold doesn't seem to hurt fruit fly colonies! But it does make them even grosser. 

- mantids nymphs need lots of space but don't make a really decorated terrarium initially.  Keep it simple with a paper towel floor and some simple furniture. In a decorated cage it's harder for them to find food and harder for you to see the mantises and see if any die.

-mantises have different personalities! Some are more skiddish of you, some are less.

- NEVER USE TAPE, even for external things you think the mantises won't go on. They will get everywhere and anywhere. It's really easy to have an up corned corner of duct tape that kills a bunch of mantises.

- an ooth is a LOT of mantises. If you're new to this hobby, consider just getting one mantis. It's been fun having an ooth to nurture but it's also been a lot of stress. 

- causes of preventable mortality - 

-- stuck to tape: 3

-- tangled in hot glue strand: 1 

-- Escaped- Unknown... Maybe like 20.


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## CosbyArt (May 4, 2016)

avn said:


> ...
> 
> - Home made fruit fly colonies are fine but the mashed potatoe recipe is semiliquid, which means you can't turn the culture and shake it to get the flies out. Commercial fruit flie mediums have an advantage here.
> 
> ...


Glad the nymphs molted and you learned from it, bound to happen.  

Regarding the homemade/DIY fruit fly medium it can be made as thick of a paste as needed (even like concrete) - just vary the amount of water.

I tend to make mine a thick goop as the adult flies can safely walk on it without getting stuck or drowning in the medium/food that has too much water. Also as mentioned there are many other variations that can be used to control mold and what goes in the medium, take a look at this FF recipe list for plenty of tips. Personally my mix works just as well as the store bought variety at a fraction of the cost (and without the unnecessary additives they have for the benefit of frogs or reptiles that eat the flies, which are not needed for mantids).


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## avn (May 15, 2016)

I got my first l3's today, some 27 days after they originally hatched. Interestingly I found an escapee in my room today and it was still l1. Maybe if they don't get much food they really will delay molting.

Anyway, the l3's seem hungrier for mantisflesh than the l2's. Time for individual nymph cups


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## avn (May 16, 2016)




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## avn (May 16, 2016)

I've got them mostly in individual habitats. It's a lot of habitats though.  at some

point I should figure out how many mantises I want to really keep.  I have 16 habitats now and it seems like I'll never bond with this many mantises... I've been thinking I would release them but it feels pretty weird to release them after raising them for so long...


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## CosbyArt (May 16, 2016)

Good, great to hear you got them separated. Don't worry 16 isn't anything, as I've had well over 70 a few times when hatching ooths, not counting my adults which at times range near 50.  Although I admit I'm like you in that regard, I like about half-dozen or so that way I can get them tamed and as true pets rather than having a mini-zoo.  

If you don't want to release the excess nymphs you can place a ad in the classifieds to sell them off, or simply run it as free to a good home ad with members covering shipping costs if you want to ensure they get adopted.


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## Kara S (Jun 19, 2016)

Thanks for this topic. I was wondering about my African Mantis, George. He/she (3rdinstar) has not let me touch it or get on a stick I am holding or take food directly from me. He just sways at me and will not break gaze with me, even to eat (although I have caught him looking away for a millisecond to grab the ff. I thought I was doing something wrong, but it seems he is just an a**hole.  Just kidding.


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## kmjack123 (Nov 15, 2016)

Looks good. I have one just just molted into the L2 stage. It hatched around November 7. I went to the dollar store and got one of their containers and poked about 7 holes on top and on the sides wrapped the sides of the inside of the container with paper towel and put a couple sprays of water on it to get it moist to get humidity in the tank and put a popsicle stick in it. It molted to the side of the container last night. 

Congrats


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