# Just A Little Challange to the thinking of inbreeding as bad...



## agent A (Jul 23, 2012)

ok so there has been a lot of debate about whether or not inbreeding is bad for our animals

obviously with vertebrates it's not a good idea

but we do a lot of inbreeding of other stuff

feeder insects for example

feeder roaches and fruitflies surely inbreed constantly because in the colony they get closer and closer related each generation as they continuosly mate with the individuals they live with

and yet we still have hundreds of feeder insects available to be used at our disposal

when we start a new fruitfly culture we merely add 20-30 or so adults from an existing culture, a culture which could be from a long line of cultures where no new bloodlines or individuals were added

and we know the fruitfly genome very well and know how to mess with it and mutate it

my audobon book on insects even says surviving male fruitflies mate with their daughters

we can't say no inbreeding happens in a fruitfly culture because it certainly does and i have no problems with the flies, as long as they have food, they r set

and we know about the genes of fruitflies better than we know mantises, so do we really know how inbreeding can affect mantises?

i dont fully understand all this so if i am wrong about this feeder insect thing let me know, this topic is just meant to get peeps thinking

please let me know wat u think of my theory...

thanx


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## massaman (Jul 23, 2012)

yes too much interbreeding can make a species sterile or could be worse off and maybe produce smaller ooths and what not!

Inbreeding can be a horrible CURSE , or a marvelous BLESSING! It is an excellent tool to be used by conscientious breeders looking for "deeply rooted" recessives! Inbreeding brings these "hidden secrets" out of hiding, so they can be properly dealt with. The great stuff can then be "polished" and strengthened through tighter inbreeding on that particular mantis, the BAD stuff can be "washed-out" through identification &amp; elimination! Inbreeding on "a species" without extensive knowledge of the mantis themselves, their nymph mates, etc is without a doubt the most dangerous form of breeding! It is much safer to just outcross, or "type" breed! That is the reason that most novices are advised NOT to inbreed!!! Without a long-term breeding program in mind, and the resources and dedication to accomplish it , all such breedings are in vain! Worse of all, others will most likely continue to breed such mantis without having sufficient knowledge about their faults &amp; virtues, thereby compounding this problem even more!


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## agent A (Jul 23, 2012)

well this is interesting massaman

i would think that if both parents are healthy (genetically speaking) then when their gametes match up they will produce a normal offspring regardless of how closely related they are

if they are both the same species their DNA is almost identical anyways, so theoretically if a zygote is made and has the proper chromosomes it will be healthy

but i've heard stuff like inbreeding doesnt allow for new dna to enter the pool and then genetic variability is non existent and then the offspring wont have the means to fight off new stressors in their environment or have new dna to fix any errors in their dna which kind of makes since

perhaps i just dont yet have enough knowledge about this stuff to grasp the concept

thanx for the thorough explanation though B)


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## frogparty (Jul 23, 2012)

You start a ff culture with 100+ individuals. Not all those are related. So right away you have the possibility of dozens of pairings of unrelated individuals. Especially if you do it the right, and use flies from 2 or more ciltures to start new ones. Take all those F1 pairings and see that there are many many instances for F2 offspring that are from totally unrelated pairings. Then think about the fact that all those pairings can result in a combination of related and unrelated pairings. Then consider that production comes in "waves" from ff cultures, and that a typical culture which expires after a month doesnt really have that many generational #s come from it, and youll see that the amount of inbreeding potential total isnt that high


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## massaman (Jul 23, 2012)

Inbreeding is a problem for all diploid animals. Diploid basically means you get a copy of every gene from each of your parents. For many of these genes you only require one working copy to exist and so the working one is said to be dominant over the broken one.

If one of your parents have a recessive copy (said to be carriers) than they have a 50% chance of passing that broken gene to their offspring but since the other parent probably has 2 working copies the child will get one working copy from the other parent.

If inbreeding happens there is a much higher chance that BOTH parents are carriers (have one broken copy) so they have a 25% chance of BOTH parents passing the broken gene to their offspring.

When you consider the vast number of genes in a human, animal or even insect it is very easy for at least a few important genes to be inherited broken from both parents if their is inbreeding.


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## frogparty (Jul 23, 2012)

agent A said:


> well this is interesting massaman
> 
> i would think that if both parents are healthy (genetically speaking) then when their gametes match up they will produce a normal offspring regardless of how closely related they are
> 
> ...


Take a genetics course, please. Even highschool biology should get you on the way to better understanding the basics of genetics


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## agent A (Jul 23, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Take a genetics course, please. Even highschool biology should get you on the way to better understanding the basics of genetics


not in my town :lol: 

in 9th grade they had us taking 7th grade latin  

i took bio last year but never learned abt broken genes and stuff

heck, we didnt even do dihybrid crosses on a punnet square


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## rs4guy (Jul 23, 2012)

Not to mention as a FF culture dwindles, smaller FF's are produced. I have an inkling that that is at the very least partly due to inbreeding......


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## agent A (Jul 23, 2012)

rs4guy said:


> Not to mention as a FF culture dwindles, smaller FF's are produced. I have an inkling that that is at the very least partly due to inbreeding......


i thought it was from malnourishment...


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## Norlin (Jul 31, 2012)

I would think it's from malnourishment as well. Consider that even though only a few generations occur in a FF culture, many take a few FF from that single culture to start their next culture and then repeat the cycle over and over. So while they're not in the same container, they're still from the same "culture" and if no diversification is introduced, I would consider these fully inbred.


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## Mime454 (Jul 31, 2012)

From what I've read, the danger with inbreeding is the expressing of leathal recessives in an organisms phenotype. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_alleles After enough generations of inbreeding, the effects can be bred out, even in humans, after each generation, the odds of lethal recessives expressing themselves gets lower and lower.


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## Mime454 (Jul 31, 2012)

The other danger is a bit more easily wiped out by parasites or viruses, because they have the same Histocompatibility jeans. This problem is intensified the longer the inbreeding goes on.


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## patrickfraser (Jul 31, 2012)

Mime454 said:


> The other danger is a bit more easily wiped out by parasites or viruses, because they have the same Histocompatibility jeans. This problem is intensified the longer the inbreeding goes on.


That sounds like an expensive name brand of jeans. Are they really tight or something?


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## Mime454 (Aug 1, 2012)

patrickfraser said:


> That sounds like an expensive name brand of jeans. Are they really tight or something?


Using siri dictation to type, not such a good idea in retrospect.


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## Rick (Aug 1, 2012)

It is good young members are thinking of these subjects and obviously googling for some information. Genetics is a fascinating subject and I encourage you to keep digging. There should be plenty of research on fruit fly genetics to be found. Try google scholar as well. I didn't have the internet as a kid so take advantage. It surprises me to even see you mention a punnett square at sixteen years old. And like somebody mentioned, as soon as you can take a genetics course I highly recommend it.


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## Ntsees (Aug 1, 2012)

I remember one of my proffessors mentioning that most plants inbreed often (flower self-fertilizing) and that they pretty much inbred themselves out of the lethal genes (the seedlings with the lethal genes never grew). I'm not going to say whether he's right or not but just wanted to throw that out there. Also, in regards to inbreeding in animals, just look at our dog breeds or foster farm chickens and look at how far back they date to (from that point in history to the present = that's how long they've been inbred). From the beginning, we've never had a bulldog or a white poultry chicken. The result of those animals were due to inbreeding because those traits were selected for (favored). To strengthen that trait, they would have to be bred to related animals because the related animals, even if it didn't expressed the phenotype, carried the gene. If they were not bred to a related animal, that favored trait would probably not be expressed or if expressed, it would be expressed to a lower degree. I do agree with inbreeding and lethal genes and all, but there's also what I just mentioned.


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## Rick (Aug 1, 2012)

Ntsees said:


> I remember one of my proffessors mentioning that most plants inbreed often (flower self-fertilizing) and that they pretty much inbred themselves out of the lethal genes (the seedlings with the lethal genes never grew). I'm not going to say whether he's right or not but just wanted to throw that out there. Also, in regards to inbreeding in animals, just look at our dog breeds or foster farm chickens and look at how far back they date to (from that point in history to the present = that's how long they've been inbred). From the beginning, we've never had a bulldog or a white poultry chicken. The result of those animals were due to inbreeding because those traits were selected for (favored). To strengthen that trait, they would have to be bred to related animals because the related animals, even if it didn't expressed the phenotype, carried the gene. If they were not bred to a related animal, that favored trait would probably not be expressed or if expressed, it would be expressed to a lower degree. I do agree with inbreeding and lethal genes and all, but there's also what I just mentioned.


But one current problem with pure breed dogs are certain diseases and conditions common to the breed BECAUSE of it.


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## Ntsees (Aug 1, 2012)

Rick said:


> But one current problem with pure breed dogs are certain diseases and conditions common to the breed BECAUSE of it.


Yes, you are correct. I was thinking about it too while writing but forgot to mention that. And also to add (that everyone already knows) that if the breed was bred to another breed, the offspring would be overall "stronger". Even though pure breeds have certain diseases and conditions, they are still wanted because they are not ~malformed (different looking than from what the breed should look like) and can still eat run etc. (basically, although there are problems, the dog breed still has not yet come to a point where it would die off as a breed).


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## Precarious (Aug 2, 2012)

Personally, I think the risks are low with insects, but that's just my instinctual feeling.


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## frogparty (Aug 3, 2012)

lower order vertebrates (amphibians/fish) are far les succeptible to inbreeding than mammals or birds, and insects even less succeptible

Heres the main point Id like to make. As a RESPONSIBLE BREEDER you should try your best to not inbreed


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## agent A (Aug 3, 2012)

frogparty said:


> lower order vertebrates (amphibians/fish) are far les succeptible to inbreeding than mammals or birds, and insects even less succeptible
> 
> Heres the main point Id like to make. As a RESPONSIBLE BREEDER you should try your best to not inbreed


I agree

Unless we get a full understanding of how inbreeding harms something and it's effects, which I'm not sure we do yet seeing as we don't fully understand mantis genes yet I don't think we should mess with this stuff and we should try to avoid inbreeding if possible

I notice inbred creos r less likely to wanna mate and r more aggressive towards each other

I saw on tv inbreeding tigers makes them more aggressive

Maybe a similar thing happens here but I'm not sure


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## Rick (Aug 3, 2012)

I really wouldn't compare mantids and mammals on this topic. I am willing to bet that the majority of our captive, non US mantids are already quite inbred.


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## Mime454 (Aug 3, 2012)

I don't actually see how most wild mantids are not imbred. They don't disperse much, some studies put it at only 20 meters over a lifetime.


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## frogparty (Aug 3, 2012)

theres a lot of new blood that comes in froim Malaysia and the EU.


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## angelofdeathzz (Aug 3, 2012)

If insects didn't inbreed they wouldn't have been here 10's of millions of years longer than us, do the math, they out live all species on the planet, It's not that hard to figure out only advanced life forms should not inbreed? It plagues are larger brain and soft vulnerable skin more than what they have, It's like apples and oranges? Ever here of give and take, we took...


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## angelofdeathzz (Aug 3, 2012)

Evolving comes at a price, y/n???


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## frogparty (Aug 3, 2012)

yes, it does. it certainly does. BUT you'll notice that nature has evolved built in mechanisms to prevent inbreeding in insects.

Lets start with fruit flies, shall we? In the early production stages of a fruit fly culture, the vast majority of the flies are a single sex, and that doesnt reverse till the end of the culture. Its one reason why its always a good idea to start cultures with flies from a young and an old culture, to get a even mix of sexes

In mantids, the males have evolved to mature much faster than females, and since the males are adept fliers, they disperse their hatch zone long before the female has matured, who remains relatively sedentary

If inbreeding wasnt a big deal, there wouldnt be evolutionary adaptations to prevent it...EVEN IN PLANTS, like someone already brought up, there are mechanisms to prevent "selfing" Where you see selfing become more common are in cultivars specifically selected for this trait


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## fleurdejoo (Aug 6, 2012)

Dude, I'm from Kentucky! Trust me it's bad!


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## patrickfraser (Aug 6, 2012)

Wanna see something crazy about inbreds? I think it is one of the more disturbing episodes of the X-files. It is titled "Home". Very creepy.


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## kitkat39 (Aug 6, 2012)

fleurdejoo said:


> Dude, I'm from Kentucky! Trust me it's bad!


lol.. but I love your fried chicken...


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## fleurdejoo (Aug 7, 2012)

Our real fried chicken will make you slap yr mama!


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## angelofdeathzz (Aug 11, 2012)

fleurdejoo said:


> Our real fried chicken will make you slap yr mama!


Haha... Well send me some then girl, if I get the 8 piece I'll forward 1 or 2 to Kitkat39, I promise!


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## Bug Trader (Aug 11, 2012)

We know there are known issues with line breeding certain mantids, the problem is without a real scientific study we dont know if its due to the line breeding or husbandry and this weve seen in the dart frog hobby as well. Id be more than happy to start holding back a few Hymenopus to start studying this. A few simple set husbandy/ feeding practices and a controled breeding setup with tracked individuals will tell us something.

As far as FF go, you need to understand that FF are already so inbred to the point they are deformed, Why do you think there are so many strains of them, wingless, golden wingless, turkish gliders, curly wings, and such you dont think they are all naturally occuring do you?

They also do not start producing runts do to breeding, its lack of food, they will keep breeding even without food in the bottom of the culture, the FF do not eat the media in the bottom of the cups for the most part, thats for the larva the FF go after the yeast in it and you will see if you sprinkle a bit of yeast in there a couple weeks into production they will flurish longer. Its also a genetic issue with how most seed their cultures, you should be seeding each culture from 3 seperate cultures, one from fresh producers, one from mid stage and then from the late stage in the culture, this creates a a stronger FF population in your culture.


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## angelofdeathzz (Aug 11, 2012)

Well that clears up the(my) mystery of why they get smaller as the cuture ages, thanks for your input on that.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 12, 2012)

For some really good info on fruit flies and their specifics, go to www.carolina.com, order a small vial of fruit flies, expensive I know, but they will send a booklet with them and there is a lot you can learn from the book, I have a couple, so if anyone wants one, place a note on your orders and if available I will send it out. Remember inbreeding causes problems, not just in insects but all life as well, some cause a destroying trait, others for some reason do not.


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## agent A (Aug 12, 2012)

well think of the silkworm moth, bombyx mori

the WHOLE SPECIES is captive now and frequently inbred and they still haven't gone extinct

they r extinct in the wild but very common in captivity


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## patrickfraser (Aug 12, 2012)

...AND they are very susceptible to disease and die off easily if not kept properly. Inbreeding issue??? hmmmm? :huh:


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## Mime454 (Aug 12, 2012)

Yep. Inbreeding stops being directly dangerous after the lethal alleles leave after a few generations. However, they will be more susceptible to disease and parasites with each loss of genetic variation. There is no away around this side effect of inbreeding. With proper care, it can be managed, but it's going to get harder and never eliminated.


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## agent A (Aug 12, 2012)

patrickfraser said:


> ...AND they are very susceptible to disease and die off easily if not kept properly. Inbreeding issue??? hmmmm? :huh:


maybe it's a domestication issue?? they need food placed right on them and dont fly

it's because they dont need to survive in the wild anymore i think...


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## Mime454 (Aug 12, 2012)

agent A said:


> maybe it's a domestication issue?? they need food placed right on them and dont fly
> 
> it's because they dont need to survive in the wild anymore i think...


I don't think that Evolution would work anywhere near that fast, if at all. Unless there is selective advantage to not being able to fly, it would take millennia at the very least for genetic drift to make all the moths flightless.


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## agent A (Aug 12, 2012)

Mime454 said:


> I don't think that Evolution would work anywhere near that fast, if at all. Unless there is selective advantage to not being able to fly, it would take millennia at the very least for genetic drift to make all the moths flightless.


they've been domesticated for about 6000 years i think


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## frogparty (Aug 12, 2012)

yeah, when theres no selective pressures on a population you get all kinds of abnormalities, THEN take into account that flightless would be selected FOR due to ease of handling and you can see a solid domestication trend leading to flightless moths


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## Mime454 (Aug 12, 2012)

frogparty said:


> yeah, when theres no selective pressures on a population you get all kinds of abnormalities, THEN take into account that flightless would be selected FOR due to ease of handling and you can see a solid domestication trend leading to flightless moths


6000 years is ample time for artificial selection to take place. Probably doesn't have much to do with inbreeding.


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## frogparty (Aug 12, 2012)

Mime454 said:


> 6000 years is ample time for artificial selection to take place. Probably doesn't have much to do with inbreeding.


Thats what Im saying.....artificial selection

However, who knows how diverse that gene pool is now, Im sure theres plenty of inbreeding going on, and has been for 1000s of years.


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