# Issues with gongy falling?



## Rick (Feb 6, 2010)

During the last molt one fell right after molting. With my help was able to crawl up a stick and turn out fine. Another one seconds before molting. Managed to crawl up and molt normally. They are molting again and today I noticed one had fallen after a molt. I helped it up a stick but noticed half of one leg missing and one front leg is twisted a bit. Looks like it may be ok though.

These are in a net cage. Their sheds stay firmly attached to the top. There are no flies in there during molting periods. I don't know if the others are doing something to cause it or not. I have four in one of those net cages everybody is using. Anyone else had issues like this?


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## revmdn (Feb 6, 2010)

Yeah, I had something like this happen durring their last molt. Every one is cool, but one took a fall and got right back up to my suprise. I do have one missing a leg, not sure if that was a molting issue or done by a sibbling.


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## tier (Feb 6, 2010)

Hi

I have had this in every generation: 10-20% of the females fall down right after the final moult, 90% do fine. I do not know why some fall down. I guess the better the food, the better the final moulting will be (strictly big flies fed with honey and flower pollen or bees).

I know you like crickets, Rick, and maybe the crickets you use are fine as mantis food. But I am sure no cricket, not even the healthiest and best fed one, is a good diet for emusids like _Gongylus_.

regards


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## Katnapper (Feb 6, 2010)

Yes, I too have had a couple of Gongy's mismolt in the net cages from falling. As adults, especially the males, I've seen them occasionally "fall" off down to the bottom when misting the cage. Regardless, I can't think of any better way to keep them than in the net cages. It seems they would surely fall more in a plastic container with only the lid having either screening or cloth-type ventilation, even with sanding the sides of the interior plastic. I've sent some adult Gongy's in 32oz cups with sandpapered sides, and they can't grip the sides very well or at all anyways.

Maybe pinning some sticks, backer rod, or other type of artificial foliage to the top or sides might help. I don't know... haven't tried it with the Gongys.


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## Rick (Feb 6, 2010)

tier said:


> HiI have had this in every generation: 10-20% of the females fall down right after the final moult, 90% do fine. I do not know why some fall down. I guess the better the food, the better the final moulting will be (strictly big flies fed with honey and flower pollen or bees).
> 
> I know you like crickets, Rick, and maybe the crickets you use are fine as mantis food. But I am sure no cricket, not even the healthiest and best fed one, is a good diet for emusids like _Gongylus_.
> 
> regards


What makes you think I feed everything crickets?


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## Katnapper (Feb 6, 2010)

I think the issue is more related to the structure of this particular species' tarsi, and its large size and weight. They just seem to have more problems gripping surfaces, whether moving from place to place or holding on while hanging/molting.


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## kamakiri (Feb 6, 2010)

Is the problem that they are falling from the old exoskeleton?

Mine seem to prefer using the plastic grid screen that I am using for a 'ladder'. There seems to be a preference to use the sections that are around 45 to 60 degrees from horizontal. But I only have L5s that I've kept since L2.

Just a long shot...but maybe try tilting one of the cubes?

Would be nice if we could find somebody with some experience in the field with these.


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## Rick (Feb 6, 2010)

kamakiri said:


> Is the problem that they are falling from the old exoskeleton?Mine seem to prefer using the plastic grid screen that I am using for a 'ladder'. There seems to be a preference to use the sections that are around 45 to 60 degrees from horizontal. But I only have L5s that I've kept since L2.
> 
> Just a long shot...but maybe try tilting one of the cubes?
> 
> Would be nice if we could find somebody with some experience in the field with these.


I can look into doing that. Not sure where they are falling from.


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## PhilinYuma (Feb 6, 2010)

Rick said:


> What makes you think I feed everything crickets?


I doubt that it makes much of a difference regarding their falling or not, but as a matter of interest, Rick, what _do_ you feed your gongies?


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## hibiscusmile (Feb 6, 2010)

Tier has been raising these as long as I have been on the forum, so I go with what he says. I am only feeding mine blue bottle and house flies and they are falling too. I have not tried the bee pollen though, so I will have to do that right away, they are in a cage with all kinds of glued sticks to hand from and screen, nothing has helped them.


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## Rick (Feb 6, 2010)

PhilinYuma said:


> I doubt that it makes much of a difference regarding their falling or not, but as a matter of interest, Rick, what _do_ you feed your gongies?


They are fed flies as I stated in the original post which is irrelevant to this conversation.


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## hibiscusmile (Feb 6, 2010)

I do occassionaly give them a cricket, but only once in a blue moon as they are housed together and to much work to feed them that way.


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## kamakiri (Feb 6, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> Tier has been raising these as long as I have been on the forum, so I go with what he says. I am only feeding mine blue bottle and house flies and they are falling too. I have not tried the bee pollen though, so I will have to do that right away, they are in a cage with all kinds of glued sticks to hand from and screen, nothing has helped them.


On that note...maybe Andrew can chime in with his thoughts. He seems to be pretty successful with these and lives in your neck o' the woods...I'd like to hear what he suggests.

Since the blue bottles don't seem to be a 100% solution...I'm thinking it's not the food.


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## Rick (Feb 6, 2010)

kamakiri said:


> On that note...maybe Andrew can chime in with his thoughts. He seems to be pretty successful with these and lives in your neck o' the woods...I'd like to hear what he suggests.Since the blue bottles don't seem to be a 100% solution...I'm thinking it's not the food.


Why was food even mentioned? I never inquired about food! This has nothing to do with food.


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## kamakiri (Feb 6, 2010)

Rick said:


> They are fed flies as I stated in the original post which is irrelevant to this conversation.


And ironically, I have been feeding mine crix to date with no ill effects so far. I did just get some blue bottles, but I think I might try to raise one or two on exclusively crickets.

Back to the moulting space geometry issue...can anyone else comment on the angle and surfaces available to your mantises for molting?

This is what my typical setup has been:







I'm concerned that I need to use something similar, but scaled up for when they are larger.


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## Opivy (Feb 6, 2010)

to date I haven't put anything in the 32oz deli cups with my guys yet - but I like your little setup Grant. I want to do something simple -

Do you secure the branch in there with anything? (or is it even a branch?)


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## Rick (Feb 6, 2010)

Here is my set up. Net cage.


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## sbugir (Feb 6, 2010)

Perhaps the freshly molted gongylus get their tarsi stuck, and fall when struggling to pull them out? Those net cages are very fine.


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## revmdn (Feb 6, 2010)

Rick, it's all your falt that all of our gg's have been falling. You and your darn cricket feeding.   :lol:


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## yen_saw (Feb 6, 2010)

Aww bummer. It has been lucky for me so far no mismolt on the last stage. I have them about 85-90F, feeding house flies and blue bottles. But i mist them heavily during last stage, once in the morning and another before switching off the light.


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## hibiscusmile (Feb 6, 2010)

I am misting heavy too Yen, and branches are straight up and slanted, so they can do whatever they want, I think Tier may have something with the nutrition they are getting. Mine really don't have a chance to gut load before eaten, I could probably dip them in it, but with feeding out 1000 or more bbs a day, they dont get to eat.


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## hibiscusmile (Feb 6, 2010)

But I just realized I have them at around 80F . I will up their temp and see what happens. Is that a good temp Tier? 85 F to 90?


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## Rick (Feb 6, 2010)

Mine are at 100+ right under the lamp. High 80's-90's elsewhere. Misted every other day.


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## sbugir (Feb 6, 2010)

Rick said:


> Mine are at 100+ right under the lamp. High 80's-90's elsewhere. Misted every other day.


I remember Tier and Krusz having a discussion about heat. I'll post the thread when I find it, but perhaps its too hot.


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## Rick (Feb 6, 2010)

lemmiwinks said:


> I remember Tier and Krusz having a discussion about heat. I'll post the thread when I find it, but perhaps its too hot.


Got them from Andrew and that is what he recommended. He has had good luck. They are not falling every molt. I've had a couple do it is all. Seems fairly common by reading what others have said.


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## yen_saw (Feb 6, 2010)

hibiscusmile said:


> I am misting heavy too Yen, and branches are straight up and slanted, so they can do whatever they want, I think Tier may have something with the nutrition they are getting. Mine really don't have a chance to gut load before eaten, I could probably dip them in it, but with feeding out 1000 or more bbs a day, they dont get to eat.


Yes i do gutload the flies before feeding the violin mantis. I also have honey smear on the top of net cage for the flies to feed on while inside the cage.


Rick said:


> Mine are at 100+ right under the lamp. High 80's-90's elsewhere. Misted every other day.


 I use 100+ for breeding only. Although they live alright together, i separate subadult female that is about to molt into individual net cage under 80-90F.


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## tier (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi

I just mentioned the flies, Rick, because I a) know you like crickets and you seem to have fine, well working crickets, b ) I know some of you give crickets to empusids and do not realize the fault (see posts of members above) and c) I know you have problems with your Gongie's final moults as you mentioned it and asked for help. So I mentioned the crickets. So I pointed out the crickets because I thought logically. In my opinion, your problem is pretty sure a nutrient problem. That's why I pointed out the food. So, in your opinion food definitively has nothing to do with problems within the final moulting? Auugh, come on! Please!

The enclosure is good, but where are the thin twigs? Look, your Gongie's have to hang on the screen lid their whole life time. The are forced to hang there in the same position their whole life. I thik it could be important that they can rest with their legs in different positions. Yours always have their legs in the same position, they cannot relax one leg or change a leg's position, because they have no twigs in differewnt positions with different structure. It's like a human is forced to lay in his bed his whole lifetime, or stay straight for his whole lifetime. I am sure it is a big problem that they always have their legs in the same position on the same structured surface. Of course they have no chance to relaxe a single leg, but all legs are always chafing at the same position. That causes problems. Put a lot of fine, thin twigs in your enclosure.

Flies have to be fed with honey. It must be a honey mixed of different flowers, like a "wood flower honey" or a "meadow honey". It must not be a honey from only one single plant.

In this case, katnapper, it seems not to be a problem with the Tarsae of the Gongylus. I pointed out that the "screen-top-surface-only" is very very bad, yes. But anyway: They do not fall because they can not stay attached to the sreen surface, but they falll out off the old skin. This is definitively a nutrient problem, not a problem with their Tarsae. That's why I, Rick, pointed out crickets and the importance of honey, bee pollen or reptile-nutrient-powder as food for the flies (I have never used the latter).

I have them moulting on the top-net-screen without problems and on thin twigs. It makes no difference. But they must have the chance to choose a nice place: They must have different assoziated twigs in different positions with different structure. Than they can shoose the screen-top or another place. And they were not forced to always chafe the same part of their legs for their whole lifetime. If they have had a top quality diet and nicely structured enclosures, you minimize the problems while moulting. The temperature Yen pointed out is perfect. In such an open net cage, I would mist them at least 2 times a week or every day just a little bit.

By the way, I keep them in net cages, glass terrariums, wooden cages and plastic boxes. I normally use cages with sizes of 40x60x40cm and I use a 40W spot if the enclosure is not completely open, and for open cages like a net cage I use a 60W spot. I guess it's normal that 10-20% have problems, in nature it will maybe be much more. Sometimes, out of 50 females only two or three missmoult, sometimes from 50 females five have problems with the final moulting, and sometimes out of 50 females, 10 or 15 fall down while the final moult. After about 6-7 years resp. about 12-14 generations breeding them, the 10-20% final missmoults is just an avarage value.

regards


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## hibiscusmile (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks Tier, that's what I think too, you have given me FOOD (excuse the pun) for thought!


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## Rick (Feb 7, 2010)

tier said:


> HiI just mentioned the flies, Rick, because I a) know you like crickets and you seem to have fine, well working crickets, b ) I know some of you give crickets to empusids and do not realize the fault (see posts of members above) and c) I know you have problems with your Gongie's final moults as you mentioned it and asked for help. So I mentioned the crickets. So I pointed out the crickets because I thought logically. In my opinion, your problem is pretty sure a nutrient problem. That's why I pointed out the food. So, in your opinion food definitively has nothing to do with problems within the final moulting? Auugh, come on! Please!
> 
> The enclosure is good, but where are the thin twigs? Look, your Gongie's have to hang on the screen lid their whole life time. The are forced to hang there in the same position their whole life. I thik it could be important that they can rest with their legs in different positions. Yours always have their legs in the same position, they cannot relax one leg or change a leg's position, because they have no twigs in differewnt positions with different structure. It's like a human is forced to lay in his bed his whole lifetime, or stay straight for his whole lifetime. I am sure it is a big problem that they always have their legs in the same position on the same structured surface. Of course they have no chance to relaxe a single leg, but all legs are always chafing at the same position. That causes problems. Put a lot of fine, thin twigs in your enclosure.
> 
> ...


I guess my original post was not clear. No need to bring up crickets. Yes, I defend crickets as feeders often. However, and I will say it again. I do not feed these mantids crickets! In fact I don't own a single cricket. They eat bluebottle flies which are feed on honey. And yes I use three different types of honey on a rotating basis. Try not to make assumptions about what somebody may be doing as you did with my feeding routine.

Let me mention this as well. This is not the final molt. I don't think I ever said it was. There are twigs in the enclosure. About the only thing I can see I am doing differently is the temperature may be too warm.


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## tier (Feb 7, 2010)

Rick said:


> I guess my original post was not clear. No need to bring up crickets. Yes, I defend crickets as feeders often. However, and I will say it again. I do not feed these mantids crickets! In fact I don't own a single cricket. They eat bluebottle flies which are feed on honey. And yes I use three different types of honey on a rotating basis. Try not to make assumptions about what somebody may be doing as you did with my feeding routine. Let me mention this as well. This is not the final molt. I don't think I ever said it was. There are twigs in the enclosure. About the only thing I can see I am doing differently is the temperature may be too warm.


If you not want me to make assumptions, next time directly give more basic info, like you did now.-

If it is not the final moult, things are exactly the same, but worse. Normally the biggest loss is within the final moult. If you have already such problems now, it is worse.

I was thinking something like:" Well, 100 times I gave adivise to Gongylus, nobody cares. But now I will do a favour to Rick and again help with this species". Now look what happened - you feel offended, not realize I want to help you, not say thank you but ignore my advise.


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## Rick (Feb 7, 2010)

tier said:


> If you not want me to make assumptions, next time directly give more basic info, like you did now.-If it is not the final moult, things are exactly the same, but worse. Normally the biggest loss is within the final moult. If you have already such problems now, it is worse.
> 
> I was thinking something like:" Well, 100 times I gave adivise to Gongylus, nobody cares. But now I will do a favour to Rick and again help with this species". Now look what happened - you feel offended, not realize I want to help you, not say thank you but ignore my advise.


Your advice is not being ignored. I simply don't understand why crickets were brought into this discussion as if I did something wrong by feeding incorrectly. I mentioned flies in my first post even. The only thing I can see doing differently is to add more twigs. Even that seems like a bad idea as it could interfere with molting. But if you say that is what you do then it must work.


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## tier (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi

Well, they can moult very good on the screen top in general. But I think it is not good if they have only this all the time. If they have good twigs where they can hang on from time to time, maybe they will do the moultings on the screen top anyway. But I guess it is not good if they have ONLY this. A twig with the such a big radius I can see in the picture is not good for empusids. Maybe for laying an ooth, but that's it. They prefer twigs with an radius of 1-2mm. Of course one single, straight twig is not good, they need a lot of them arrenged so they can put all 4 legs on thin twigs without their feet building a straight line.

But actually your Gongies have no problems with staying attached to a surface, but with falling out off the old skin. I think this is not a matter of the material or structure or angle where they moult, but a different problem.

I just brought the crickets into discussion because I thought it may be a relevant or interesting point. No need for alarm.

regards


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## Rick (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks. I added more and thinner twigs. I did keep some of the thicker ones so they have options if they want to use them. Do you think I am keeping them too warm? I will start misting lightly once daily instead of every other day.


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## yen_saw (Feb 7, 2010)

Good luck Rick, mist them twice a day if your room is too dry. I don't know how dry is your bug room but mine is really dry. Mine molt from net screen and branches alright.


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## Rick (Feb 7, 2010)

yen_saw said:


> Good luck Rick, mist them twice a day if your room is too dry. I don't know how dry is your bug room but mine is really dry. Mine molt from net screen and branches alright.


It is very dry. My entire shelf containing everybody is enclosed and very warm.


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## tier (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi

Normally their raptorial forelegs stay stucked to the old skin after moulting if kept too dry. If yours are not stucking to the old skin, the humidity seems not to be too low.

Misting twice a day might be ok if kept really hot and in a completely open net cage. Anyway, once a day or every other day shold be enough. L1 and L2 need misting every day, but later insatrs can be misted every other day or three times a week.

The best tempertures are 30-35° for L1 and L2, 35 for L3 till subadult and 40°C for adults/for mating. These are daytime temperatures in the center of the enclosure. In the downer parts and corners, its 5°C lower, directly in the spot in the higest parts its 10°C hotter! That means easily up to 50°C in the hottest parts, and sometimes they do rest there. Mated females again search for cooler spots (30°C) to lay the ooth. Thus, the ooth should also be incubated at around 30°C. The lights are switched on 12hours every day. The night time temperatures MUST be around 10°C lower, night temperatures of 24°C work best.

These temperatures are available by a 40W or 60W spot lamp from your local DoItYourself store for 2 Dollars for the spot and 10 Dollars for the lamp I guess. I mean something like a desk-lamp. In cold winters, I have to use a small heating cable running 24/7, too.


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## hibiscusmile (Feb 7, 2010)

Information is much appreaciated Tier, I will follow your advice, thanks!


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## Rick (Feb 7, 2010)

tier said:


> HiNormally their raptorial forelegs stay stucked to the old skin after moulting if kept too dry. If yours are not stucking to the old skin, the humidity seems not to be too low.
> 
> Misting twice a day might be ok if kept really hot and in a completely open net cage. Anyway, once a day or every other day shold be enough. L1 and L2 need misting every day, but later insatrs can be misted every other day or three times a week.
> 
> ...


I have a 25w lamp over them now. Under the lamp which is six inches away it is 100+ degrees F. My ambient temps are well about 85.


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## kamakiri (Feb 7, 2010)

Not that my opinion matters much on the subject, I can say that I have had 100% success in molts from L2 to L5  







None of the molts have been on the horizontal tub lid, and they have all been in the section of plastic grid similar to that in the above pic. I get that particular grid from mantisplace. My concern going forward for me is how to scale the seemingly preferred molting angle so that it is wide enough as mine get larger.

10 to 20% mismolts does not seem to be a good number to systematically design to, and I doubt that the mismolt rate in nature would be that high, but again, what do I know?   

I do like tier's temp and daylight durations, as this is as close to topical or sub-tropical conditions that we can simulate in captivity. In the tropics daylight duration is not shorter than about 11hrs or longer than 13hrs. Typical daytime high to night time low usually only vary by about 10 degrees F. This is already in the range that I am keeping the ghosts and have added the cryptic and violins to.


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## kamakiri (Mar 2, 2010)

Any update to this issue, Rick? Is the new stick setup working out?

3 of mine just molted to L6 in their 32 oz tubs okay...


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## Rick (Mar 3, 2010)

Haven't had the issues since. I don't think the sticks have much to do with it because they never molt from the sticks. They always molt from the top of the cage. Finally had one molt into adult and he came out perfect. I did start misting daily.


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## Colorcham427 (Mar 3, 2010)

I mist my Violins everyday, just a light mist on the bottom of their container. I just had a female molt into adult. I thought this species was a little bit bigger than expected, but hey, these are gorgeous specimens!  

Anyways, I always keep a fiberglass mesh in with the mantids. The seem to prefer it over the bio-vine. Bio-vines are great because they have extra texture/bumps, exceptional for grip, atleast with reptiles and 'crickets'  .

I am keeping my guys at 90 F.

ALso guys I wanted to ask, do any of you know what moths are abudant in India where the Violins are mainly located, if they're found in any specific area that is. Curious what insects are over populated, possibly there is an insect that is commonly caught by them once they're bigger? Any of you been to India and actually witnessed them in their natural habitat?

Found this quick link about where one was found. http://www.whatsthatbug.com/2009/12/10/wandering-violin-mantis-from-india-2/

Insects of india, simply a cool site! lol im such a nerd hah http://www.insectsofindia.in/about.php

Any of you guys know where Violins naturally prefer to hangout so to speak, wait for prey? Most if not all insects have some sort of instinct, duty in their life... Just curious, maybe we can somehow piece information and figure more ways to help this species in captivity to progress. I am really digging this species!  

I strictly feed them flies btw lol.

Also, thought this would help some out with deli cup homes... Have you guys tried the hornworm pod pre-made cups? These are cool and sweet because they already have a mesh professionally stapled inside. All you really need to do is add one stick for the middle. The cloth on the lid is pretty awesome for grip. The mesh's spaces between the holes aren't too big. Plenty of room for the middle to place a stick or piece of fake leaves, etc...

They come with the cloth vented lids, you can easily poke holes in the "only covered by cloth holes" for more air flow.

I'm fully aware that this species needs? or just does better because it's easier to maintain an evironment that is not as prone to "bacteria orgies" with well ventialted enclosures, such as full screen,net etc. cages...

Just thought I'd share, greatlakeshornworm.com has them for a price that is reasonable. .75 cents per cup. These can certainly be used for other species.


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## Schloaty (Mar 3, 2010)

Without having read the entire thread, I have a rather odd question for you all....

Do your houses/appartments/whatever ever shake for some reason? Forced air going on, train or trucks nearby, or whatever?

Maybe even something that you don't even notice any more is just enough to shake them down....

or, perhaps since they're in net cages, Rick, there's an occaisonal draft?

Or maybe you have mantis gremlins.... :blink:


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## Rick (Mar 3, 2010)

Nothing like that here. Possibly their cage mates bump into them or their skins fall off as they hang from them. Or maybe while they are hanging only by their abdomens in the old skin they fall out?


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