# Pet store feeder woes



## CosbyArt (Jan 3, 2018)

I've never been a fan of local pet stores in general, there were a few exceptions but they are long gone. It seems lately though things have gotten even worse which I thought wasn't really possible.

Earlier I went to a local pet store for some feeders to add to the gene pool of my feeder colonies, and was told they got a delivery today of new feeders. I thought I was in luck hearing that, but it turns out I was wrong.

I purchased a "full tube" of small crickets, which is 150 small at the store (100 if medium, or 50 large). The employee went and got my crickets from the back and rang me up on the register.

At home I counted 81 dead and about 130 live crickets - and I kept them in a warm vehicle and was home in 5 minutes so it wasn't on my end. Judging by the quantity of crickets and the substrate I can only assume the employee took the cricket tank and shook it into the bag.  I've never gotten substrate with crickets, and judging by my vermiculite that is what I got with them.

It seems the crickets were at the mercy of the winter cold on their trip to the store today with many die-offs too.







Most of my recent trips to other pet stores too has resulted in out of stock feeders, rotten fruit fly cultures, half-dead waxworms, phoenix worms that already emerged as adult soldier flies, and such. It doesn't seem to matter if it is a chain pet store, local mom-and-pop store, or whatever.

I hope it is the weather, but it seems to be more than that. Is anyone else running into these problems too? If so is this normal or worse than your experience?

It really makes me want to stick to ordering online; however, the small $10 or so in feeder amounts wouldn't even cover shipping costs online.


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## Nanodot (Jan 4, 2018)

At my local Petco, I'm lucky to find 1/4 of the boxed feeders alive, it's almost useless. 

However, my local dedicated reptile shop has Very Healthy crickets, dubias, and soldier flies.  I haven't yet found a reptile shop that carries bluebottles or houseflies, though frogs and chameleons would love them...


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## Sticky (Jan 4, 2018)

Dont buy anything without inspecting it first! At a Petco in Maine I poked through several containers and some had NOTHING in them! Not even a single dead bug!

I pointed it out to an employee and he looked through the containers too and he collected the empties and took them out to the back rooms. I like them, its a nice store with reasonable people.


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## River Dane (Jan 4, 2018)

The only pet store that I know of near me with feeders is PetCo, unfortunately. Last I was there was in September. The only good feeders are the ones untouched by the employees. Roaches, crickets, or really any animal that the employees have to care for are either dead or dying. But that’s PetCo.


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## Bathory (Jan 4, 2018)

Wow, I've never been sold DEAD feeders. I can't imagine working at a pet store and just pouring crickets into a container without checking to see if they were alive or not. Only issue I've had with pet store crickets is that they tend to be very hungry and thirsty when I get them, as soon as they are offered food and a drink they all crowd around it. No wonder people have had mantids get sick if this is the condition of the feeders people are being sold.


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## Krissim Klaw (Jan 4, 2018)

One thing I don't miss is getting feeders from petstores. I'm always shocked at how little even exotic specialized stores often know about basic feeder care. I can only assume it is because animals like the crickets are so cheap they simply don't care if a bunch die from dehydration and rancid living conditions. The strangest experience I've had was actually getting crickets at a large store down here that focuses solely on exotics such as reptiles and amphibians. They are the only place I've ever been in that occasionally gets in praying mantises. You would think they would definitely have the knowledge for basic cricket care but apparently not. I wanted to get some smaller crickets and they took me into the back room to verify which size I was looking for. Their cricket cages where tubs with one large u shaped PV pipe that was I assume suppose to be hiding area for the crickets but all it really did was serve to squish them any time staff needed to move it to catch crickets. When I was getting the crickets I mentioned I wanted them young so they would live a couple months. The person I was dealing with quickly informed me that would never happen and at best they would last a couple of weeks because if they were kept together they would cannibalize until none were left . . .​





On the flip side I do have one fond memory where I convinced one pet store to let me hand pick a bunch of female crickets because I didn't want noisy boys while I was in the dorms. They were amazed I could tell them apart. I used to consider it good if 50% of the crickets I got survived past the first week. Even when getting nymphs so many would perish from the strain they suffered prior to getting them.


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## rantology (Jan 4, 2018)

I've gotten fruitflies a couple times from my local petco. Mine must be an exception, all their stuff is usually pretty clean and healthy (animals and feeders alike). They also have a few nice plants/moss usually too. I like going there even though it's infrequent..


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## CosbyArt (Jan 4, 2018)

Seems my rant hit a theme with many others too. Sorry to hear that is the state of feeders nearly everywhere, thanks for the responses it answers several questions.



Nanodot said:


> At my local Petco, I'm lucky to find 1/4 of the boxed feeders alive, it's almost useless.
> 
> However, my local dedicated reptile shop has Very Healthy crickets, dubias, and soldier flies.  I haven't yet found a reptile shop that carries bluebottles or houseflies, though frogs and chameleons would love them...


That would be great. I had chance to visit a place similar once, but at 136 miles away isn't a place nearby. You may want to get some website links or articles and print them out to show to the manager/owner. After all they would make money, and you would have the feeders.  

I've managed to get places to stock items before, but to make it stick as a selling point I kept buying up their stock for weeks. Then apparently everyone else realized it was something the store carried because I had trouble finding it in stock afterwards.



Sticky said:


> Dont buy anything without inspecting it first! At a Petco in Maine I poked through several containers and some had NOTHING in them! Not even a single dead bug!
> 
> I pointed it out to an employee and he looked through the containers too and he collected the empties and took them out to the back rooms. I like them, its a nice store with reasonable people.


That I normally do, but as she filled the bag and had it behind the counter until paid I didn't get to see them. I never had such a issue with them before either so my quick look out the door I saw the substrate and just a few dead (which happens occasionally anyway it seems) and thought nothing of it.

Sounds like a nice response from the employee. I've never seen empty containers and that is even worse - I mean how could that even happen? Seems like maybe someone combined containers for a cheap deal or something.



FluffyMantid said:


> The only pet store that I know of near me with feeders is PetCo, unfortunately. Last I was there was in September. The only good feeders are the ones untouched by the employees. Roaches, crickets, or really any animal that the employees have to care for are either dead or dying. But that’s PetCo.


Sadly I know PetCo all too well. At times they have been great, and others really horrible. I think it has more to do with their employees than anything else, and as a typical retail job the pay doesn't keep anyone around long or to care.

In the past when I visited PetCo for crickets or such, I would ignore the bagged/boxed/container crickets and always ask for a employee to bag some up from their bins. That always resulted in the best result.



Bathory said:


> Wow, I've never been sold DEAD feeders. I can't imagine working at a pet store and just pouring crickets into a container without checking to see if they were alive or not. Only issue I've had with pet store crickets is that they tend to be very hungry and thirsty when I get them, as soon as they are offered food and a drink they all crowd around it. No wonder people have had mantids get sick if this is the condition of the feeders people are being sold.


Yes a first for me too and why I felt compelled to rant. Indeed crickets tend to be hungry and thirsty and why it is best to properly house the crickets for 48 hours before using as feeders.

You do have a very valid point as to why mantids can get sick from such feeder conditions, and is the main reason for all the "cricket hate" online.



Krissim Klaw said:


> One thing I don't miss is getting feeders from petstores. I'm always shocked at how little even exotic specialized stores often know about basic feeder care. I can only assume it is because animals like the crickets are so cheap they simply don't care if a bunch die from dehydration and rancid living conditions. The strangest experience I've had was actually getting crickets at a large store down here that focuses solely on exotics such as reptiles and amphibians. They are the only place I've ever been in that occasionally gets in praying mantises. You would think they would definitely have the knowledge for basic cricket care but apparently not.​
> ...​


I can't blame you there. My feeder colonies are thankfully self-sustaining, and I just get some occasionally now to help fill in missing stages between their growth tanks or such.

You are right and I have been told by a pet store owner it is much easier for him to replace dead crickets (and other things) than to properly care for them. He went on to tell me they rarely clean the tanks either as the cost of a sponge/soap/water/time to clean it regularly was more than to refill the tank with new crickets.

Depending on cricket size he was able to buy usually several crickets for a single penny depending on the quantity ordered. A quick look at prices online at a great/trusted supplier for me Ghann's shows that the typical small 1/4" crickets if bought in 8000 quantities is $0.00925 per cricket. So I can only imagine a pet store that buys wholesale bulk several times a month, or a chain pet store with hundreds of locations to buy for, would buy at even much lower prices. Not to mention they rotate stock quickly to make it a mute point with them

Those are some interesting experiences, and back-up the consensus of their care. I guess if they look at them having a worth of a penny, and how most people hate pennies and even throw them away, I can only imagine what they think of the crickets themselves.

Great to hear you were able to do that, I would have my hands slapped trying to pick my own crickets at a store.  



rantology said:


> I've gotten fruitflies a couple times from my local petco. Mine must be an exception, all their stuff is usually pretty clean and healthy (animals and feeders alike). They also have a few nice plants/moss usually too. I like going there even though it's infrequent..


Glad to hear your local PetCo is a exception, enjoy. The one near me comes and goes depending on their current employees. Overall it is one of the better ones in my area anymore, with PetSmart just beating them (but their higher prices and often out of stock on things keeps them from being great).


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## Tonypace2009 (Jan 4, 2018)

The pet store where I get my crickets seems to always have phorid flies  so i dont trust the crickets any more. The vendor where they get the crickets from is less thsan 2 hours away  and a very reputable vendor so not sure  when the crickets are being infected (from the vendor or at the pet store). The only way I will feed crickets again is to buy smalls and culture my own. The last time I started a cricket culture bought 56 crickets and after 4 days started realy looking at the crickets and noticed not even one male (What are the odds  How does that even happen)I had went to another store a hour away to get these crickets and watched the guy randomly scoop up nearly 3 bags of crickets  and there was't even one male.

I have Dubai roaches now that I have told everyone in the house hold  that they are flat ground beetles not roaches (you have to do what you have to do so don't judge me)


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## CosbyArt (Jan 5, 2018)

@Tonypace2009 I have done the same and will skip pet stores if I fear they are little more than a haven of bacteria. That is some bad luck not getting any male crickets in your cultures with such numbers. I would have assumed the odds of that happening would have been nearly zero too.

Ah, I won't judge negatively, but it apparently done the trick for you to keep roaches.


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## Sarah K (Jan 5, 2018)

rantology said:


> I've gotten fruitflies a couple times from my local petco. Mine must be an exception, all their stuff is usually pretty clean and healthy (animals and feeders alike). They also have a few nice plants/moss usually too. I like going there even though it's infrequent..


My experience is that Petco Fruit fly cultures are remarkably better than Petsmart!  Petco's cultures are usually full of tons of healthy flies and have a lot of medium at the bottom, Petsmart has little tubes with hardly any flies in them alive, and very little medium. Really the best option is always to breed them yourself, but if people are desperate, I would recommend Petco over Petsmart anyday!


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## River Dane (Jan 5, 2018)

Sarah K said:


> My experience is that Petco Fruit fly cultures are remarkably better than Petsmart!  Petco's cultures are usually full of tons of healthy flies and have a lot of medium at the bottom, Petsmart has little tubes with hardly any flies in them alive, and very little medium. Really the best option is always to breed them yourself, but if people are desperate, I would recommend Petco over Petsmart anyday!


I’ve never been to PetSmart, but I agree PetCo has nice fruit fly cultures. It’s only really the animal’s the employees actually have to go in and care for that’re unhealthy, they normally don’t know how, and can sometimes hurt the animal more. But as @CosbyArt said, it depends completely on the employees.


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## CosbyArt (Jan 5, 2018)

Sarah K said:


> My experience is that Petco Fruit fly cultures are remarkably better than Petsmart!  Petco's cultures are usually full of tons of healthy flies and have a lot of medium at the bottom, Petsmart has little tubes with hardly any flies in them alive, and very little medium. Really the best option is always to breed them yourself, but if people are desperate, I would recommend Petco over Petsmart anyday!


In my area it depends on what fruit fly I want to buy, as they both only sell one FF variety of the Timberline FF's. PetCo sells the Melanogaster in the small peanut butter looking container, and PetSmart only sells Hydei in the vial that is 1/6th the size of the PB jar.  It sounds like they do the same in your area too with the species.

Not sure why those pet stores do not carry both species of FF, but at least it is a option depending on the FF species needed. Yes culturing them is the way to go, but the starter flies have to come from somewhere (and usually in a hurry to feed nymphs).


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## Falconerguy (Jan 5, 2018)

I work at a Petco (a comparatively good one, thankfully) and I can tell you its mostly due to weather, and employee negligence. At my store we have plastic totes with egg carton and food/water dishes that we keep the crickets in. I just tap them off the egg carton into a funnel leading to the bag. There is no reason you should have received a single dead cricket or whatever the heck kind of substrate they are using. I'm not sure why they have a substrate at all to be honest.

One thing I have to say is to be wary of pre-packaged crickets, as they are usually mostly dead, same with roaches. And always be sure to look at your worm containers before you buy them. That sort of thing is out of the stores control for the most part. (save a daily check on EVERY container, but that's a little extreme)

Our cricket shipments have been delayed and about 50% dead due to the weather right now and we also can't receive new reptile shipments for a while. Pet stores have it rough in the winter.


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## CosbyArt (Jan 5, 2018)

@Falconerguy Great, there is a knowledgeable employee at a pet store, i.e. you.  Very nice to know that PetCo gives their crickets food and water, which many pet stores do not seem to. My nearby PetCo I found strangely keeps the crickets in large (55 gallon) lidded Rubbermaid trash cans on wheels. One employee after getting me a bag of crickets told me she nearly fell into one, as the can was getting really low and she had to get them from the lower egg crates.

The crickets I got originally elsewhere had many more die-offs that night too, so I would assume it was weather related getting to the store. From the full tube I have now maybe 25-30 left that seem to have survived. The substrate though is another matter, and I'll be sure to avoid my local mom-and-pop store when they get new stock from now on.

Sorry to hear that, I can only imagine the winter trouble makes it much harder on you as well. Nothing quite like irritate customers from stock levels that has nothing to do with you.


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## Krissim Klaw (Jan 5, 2018)

CosbyArt said:


> Not sure why those pet stores do not carry both species of FF, but at least it is a option depending on the FF species needed. Yes culturing them is the way to go, but the starter flies have to come from somewhere (and usually in a hurry to feed nymphs).


I got the impression at least from the ones in my area they rarely sell FF cultures. I don't think the Petsmart I go to even carries them and I have asked the Petco employers before how often they sell cultures and they couldn't remember the last time they actually sold one. On the couple occasions I've gone to get some flies to start a culture they ended up giving me either a couple cultures for the price of one or trying to dump flies all into one because they are always super old.


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## Falconerguy (Jan 5, 2018)

Krissim Klaw said:


> I got the impression at least from the ones in my area they rarely sell FF cultures. I don't think the Petsmart I go to even carries them and I have asked the Petco employers before how often they sell cultures and they couldn't remember the last time they actually sold one. On the couple occasions I've gone to get some flies to start a culture they ended up giving me either a couple cultures for the price of one or trying to dump flies all into one because they are always super old.


We sell them at our petco but they come in at extremely irregular schedules. They are much bigger (and better, IMO) than the petsmart cultures, although I do like petsmart cultures for mantids because of how easy they are to dispense. 

On an unrelated note, a mom and pop shop near me sold me a huge culture of """""Flightless""""" fruit flies for about $10. Well, guess what swarmed my room as soon as I opened the lid? Be careful out there folks


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## CosbyArt (Jan 6, 2018)

@Krissim Klaw I could see FF being a very region selling item depending on pet owners. Likely most stock FF as company policy or purely for customer service. Sounds like at least you got the best experience possible, them trying to ensure you got all the flies you could.  



Falconerguy said:


> They are much bigger (and better, IMO) than the petsmart cultures, although I do like petsmart cultures for mantids because of how easy they are to dispense.


The empty vials can be bought online so you can make your own with better materials (the ones I've bought lately with flies are in paper thin plastic). Of course for convenience buying them with flies and already done is always a plus.  

For the vials Nasco sells them for $0.90 each and the lid/plugs for $0.53 each. Carolina sells the vials in 12-packs and the lids/plugs in 12-packs. Or find similarly sized containers such as the 40 dram (148ml) with a lid/cap included from here. The internal plastic mesh can be done by cutting identical looking mesh, similar material, craft mesh/plastic canvas, etc. Then just add your fly medium and flies.


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## Krissim Klaw (Jan 6, 2018)

@CosbyArt Reptiles/Amphibians/exotics are pretty popular down here so you would think there would be more of a demand, then again I feel like most people who need fruit flies also know how easy it is to order online and the fact that will often have better results than some of the abysmal samplings in many of the chain stores. One thing you can do though if your store carries them but has a terrible selection is request they order you some fresh ones in. Generally they will, although obviously this really only works if you aren't in an emergency situation, which seems to be the case when most people rush to buy them from the chain stores.

I've only gotten them a couple times from stores down here when I want to start a fresh colony and I know I will only need a couple of flies to get things started. I used to let my cultures die off each gen my nymphs outgrew them, but over the years I've found in the long run it is simpler just to keep one culture of each species going in between just so I always have them if I need them. Sometimes for fun I will let my adult mantises pig out on hydei. It is a nice showcase of just how deft even some of the larger species can be at plucking up even tiny prey.


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## CosbyArt (Jan 6, 2018)

@Krissim Klaw If the pets are really popular it could also be people are getting cultures from their pet friends/clubs and such too. A good idea to request flies, and I'll try next time I am not in immediate need of them.

I do a bit of both myself in letting FF cultures die-off or continue until needed again. Honestly though it seems I plan to keep them going but eventually wait too long to start a new culture at some point.  Price wise I agree, the $0.50 a month to restart a culture is much better than the cost of driving to a pet store (about 60 miles for me round trip), or priority/over-night shipping to buy them each time - and the stress of worrying about getting them soon enough.

Nice, I bet it adds a change of pace in feeders to the mantises too. I've done it in the past too but mine seemed more annoyed than fed, but was great for mantises with feeding issues.

If you aren't completely freaked out by the little jumpers (see the 2nd comment by Potato Man) they are a good excuse to use up the excess Hydei. Funny enough most think they are even cute with their wide eyes and "eyebrow" hairs, even if they don't want to be near them.  While most adult jumpers happily take down bottle flies their own size, they are just as content with Hydei most times. Anymore I'm sure if I figured out my pet numbers I've kept, and usually have currently, (not counting nymphs) more of my pets are jumpers than mantids.


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## Serle (Jan 6, 2018)

We have a pet store in Vernon that I have asked for F.F's , they don't stock them but ordered from a supplier . The next week I went back and they had a culture in for $15.95 . Problem it was dead , I have thrown better cultures out . The staff kept telling me that the white spots were eggs , they weren't .  A couple weeks later I went back the culture was gone and another (DEAD) one was in stock $19.95 , I suppose they found a market some where .........  S


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## Krissim Klaw (Jan 6, 2018)

CosbyArt said:


> If you aren't completely freaked out by the little jumpers (see the 2nd comment by Potato Man) they are a good excuse to use up the excess Hydei. Funny enough most think they are even cute with their wide eyes and "eyebrow" hairs, even if they don't want to be near them.  While most adult jumpers happily take down bottle flies their own size, they are just as content with Hydei most times. Anymore I'm sure if I figured out my pet numbers I've kept, and usually have currently, (not counting nymphs) more of my pets are jumpers than mantids.


Lol too lazy to take on more pets right now, but I regularly hand offer fruit flies to the jumpers outside when I make new cultures. I will get some of the escapees in the process and just go up to the jumping spiders around the porch so I can watch them hop over and grab them off my hand. So cute.


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## CosbyArt (Jan 7, 2018)

Serle said:


> We have a pet store in Vernon that I have asked for F.F's , they don't stock them but ordered from a supplier . The next week I went back and they had a culture in for $15.95 . Problem it was dead , I have thrown better cultures out . The staff kept telling me that the white spots were eggs , they weren't .  A couple weeks later I went back the culture was gone and another (DEAD) one was in stock $19.95 , I suppose they found a market some where .........  S


I had a online seller tell me the same thing about the white spots, and wait a few days. All that came of it was a population explosion of mites that I was ready for, as I had it sitting in another room in a pan of water so they did not spread. Thankfully with a photo after waiting though I was refunded.

Strange customers would buy those dead cultures for those kind of prices too. I guess the container was worth the price.  



Krissim Klaw said:


> Lol too lazy to take on more pets right now, but I regularly hand offer fruit flies to the jumpers outside when I make new cultures. I will get some of the escapees in the process and just go up to the jumping spiders around the porch so I can watch them hop over and grab them off my hand. So cute.


That's great!  Glad to hear your not in the terrified group as they really are inquisitive, easy to keep, and a bit cute.


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## Mystymantis (Jan 10, 2018)

I recently bought some medium/large crickets at my local petstore, and nearly every one of them died within 2 days! They appeared very sickly, their back legs were being held up, and they were twitching? I don't know what was wrong.

But the small crickets I bought that same day were fine...so I am not sure what went wrong with the larger ones. Normally when I get crickets it isn't that bad, I suppose either they got a bad stock, or the weather was bad for them and the crickets just died or had a disease?


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## Ocelotbren (Jan 10, 2018)

Mystymantis said:


> I recently bought some medium/large crickets at my local petstore, and nearly every one of them died within 2 days! They appeared very sickly, their back legs were being held up, and they were twitching? I don't know what was wrong.
> 
> But the small crickets I bought that same day were fine...so I am not sure what went wrong with the larger ones. Normally when I get crickets it isn't that bad, I suppose either they got a bad stock, or the weather was bad for them and the crickets just died or had a disease?


I think I know what you mean about their back legs being held up, and I have also seen that in my crickets.  No idea on the implications though...I have very little experience with crickets.  I do have unexplained die offs in each newly bought batch though within the first few days.

I've also possibly had issues with pet store crickets I bought last week, but I'm not sure.  My adult female Chinese mantis has had crickets before, although not that often, and with this batch, even after quarantining them, she took a few bites and dropped them, but was still eating her blue bottle flies.

I have read here and there that mantids will refuse food if they know it's going to hurt them, although I couldn't find where I saw that posted.  But can they really tell while eating that the food is bad?  Could my Chinese mantis really take a bite, determine that the cricket is no good, and know to drop it?

I tried feeding her another cricket yesterday and she dropped it after a bite again.  She seems like she's getting ready to lay an ooth so I'm not ruling out that she just doesn't want to eat right now, but last week I tried with two different crickets from the batch and she dropped both.


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## Bathory (Jan 10, 2018)

@Mystymantis could they have been old? Crickets do tend to show when they are old/dying, with crumpled wings and dull colors. Worst case scenario is CPV, but supposedly they flip onto their backs and die. I'd quarantine the small ones for a while to see if they make it just to be sure. 

@Ocelotbren my Hierodula would throw crickets if they were too big for her when she was smaller. Since the most common reason I see for premature death in mantids is bad feeders I really doubt they'd be able to tell good insects from bad ones. Maybe she's just picky and prefers flying prey?


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## Mystymantis (Jan 10, 2018)

Bathory said:


> @Mystymantis could they have been old? Crickets do tend to show when they are old/dying, with crumpled wings and dull colors. Worst case scenario is CPV, but supposedly they flip onto their backs and die. I'd quarantine the small ones for a while to see if they make it just to be sure.
> 
> @Ocelotbren my Hierodula would throw crickets if they were too big for her when she was smaller. Since the most common reason I see for premature death in mantids is bad feeders I really doubt they'd be able to tell good insects from bad ones. Maybe she's just picky and prefers flying prey?


@Bathory No, the crickets were not old as they were still nymphs just larger nymphs then the really small batch. I really hope it isn't CPV though. But I have no idea why they seemed to be all sick and died. The smaller ones are doing fine right now. No signs of the symptoms the older ones had. Quarantine is a good idea.

Thanks


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## CosbyArt (Jan 11, 2018)

@Mystymantis Indeed it could very well be the cricket virus CrPV/CrPVvic/AdDNV, and it's various strains. I have heard of a few keepers that had crickets displaying the symptoms recently. That is the cricket will lay on it's back rapidly flaring it's legs (even if flipped over), before becoming paralyzed, and dying.

Typically crickets exposed to prolonged excessive cold will become lethargic (barley moving) and simply die, a few may end up on their backs and do a bit of leg flaring as they die; however, if you seen many crickets preforming that action on their backs it does point to CrPV.

@Ocelotbren Perhaps your girl simply prefers the bottle flies due to "taste"/smell/texture.  

If a mantid is able to tell if a feeder is bad or not by taste/smell/appearance/etc is debatable, and can vary with mantid individuals. Overall I'd say if I had to put a number on it I'd say mantids can discern typical bad feeders 90% of the time - the feeders that could lead to their death.

That is if the feeder has a natural/plant toxin, like a wild large milkweed bug (Oncopeltus fasciatus), nearly all mantids will avoid it altogether. If they simply avoid it as they recognized the bright warning colors and are reacting, detecting a odor, or something else is a topic I have not read scientifically. I do know the milkweed bug if bred in captivity on unsalted shelled sunflower seeds will remove the toxin, and has been used as mantid feeder cultures in the past - so the bright colors apparently are not the factor for mantids deciding to eat a possible feeder.

However if the mantid took a bite and spits/vomits it out then it is detecting a taste/odor apparently to have the reaction.

The problem is not all things are so obvious to discern from a possible bad feeder, especially bacteria. In which case some mantids may eat much more of a feeder, before it realizes a problem, if it does at all. Which can lead to sickness or death depending on the amount ate/toxicity/and other factors.

Thankfully though from my past mantids (and many other keepers I have read) that tends to be few cases, and mostly from certain wild caught insect species that should not have been used. The more common problem species is a firefly (Lampyridae sp.) that some have used as a feeder when they become numerous. The luciferin used for the firefly glow is highly toxic to mantids. While some mantids can eat a firefly excluding the abdomen (with the majority of the chemical) and be fine, some other mantids have not survived eating any portion of a firefly.

If your talking strictly about cricket feeders I've never had a mantid related issue from the many thousands I have fed to mantids (even straight from a pet store when I first started). I have not heard of problems from numerous others as well, here is one , at least any crickets that were cared for properly. It seems in most cases even if the crickets were not cared for, it usually results in some mantid sickness they recover from.


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## Bathory (Jan 11, 2018)

I just found a cricket on its back and I had one die yesterday. Guess who's gonna feed with just wax moths for a couple of days...


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## Ocelotbren (Jan 12, 2018)

@Bathory @CosbyArt Yeah, I guess it is possible she is just becoming picky in her old age haha.  It just seemed unlikely since I was under the impression that Chinese mantids are pretty voracious and unpicky eaters, and she did accept crickets at one point.  But I don't need to feed her crickets; it was just a larger alternative to replace tons of blue bottle flies once in a while.

Also CosbyArt, that is interesting stuff about the possibly toxic feeders!  Especially that mantids will eat the normally toxic milkweed bug if the toxicity was bred out of them.


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## CosbyArt (Jan 12, 2018)

@Ocelotbren Likely she avoids crickets waiting for the flies to return as she is well fed and in no hurry. Be glad she isn't hooked on waxworm moths, which are hard to keep staged so moths are always available.

When I fed waxworm moths some mantids became hooked and barely would eat other feeders too including even bottle flies. Waxworm moths are the insect world's twinkie junk food - most mantids will choose it when given a choice between any other feeder.  The problem with them though is their high fat content and little else, so should be used as a treat.

Feeder varieties is interesting and with plenty of species that can be cultured too. I've posted large lists of species in the past, and it seems there are occasionally new ones to add from member comments. The only problem though is species availability usually which also causes a lack of culture information. For the large milkweed bug (Oncopeltus fasciatus) as a feeder, see my attempts, and others who have kept them, from here. Carolina supply also has a caresheet for them too.


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## Nanodot (Jan 12, 2018)

CosbyArt said:


> Most of my recent trips to other pet stores too has resulted in out of stock feeders, rotten fruit fly cultures, half-dead waxworms, phoenix worms that already emerged as adult soldier flies, and such. It doesn't seem to matter if it is a chain pet store, local mom-and-pop store, or whatever.


I'm having great luck with black soldier flies right now.  The larvae are extremely easy to raise to pupae, and my gongy's love the emerged flies.  The flies are large, harmless, and more sedentary than bluebottles.  They don't buzz around so much that the gongys are bothered by the flies being left in their terrarium for laters.    My mantids like them almost as much as they like wax moths.       Does anyone have experience using soldier flies as primary feeders?  

In most parts of the country, a small outdoor composter will generate all the BSF you want for free.


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## Ocelotbren (Jan 12, 2018)

@CosbyArt Hah, I guess that could be it.  Thanks for the information and links!


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## Nanodot (Jan 12, 2018)

http://pubmedcentralcanada.ca/pmcc/articles/PMC5552164/ 

soldier fly crude protein shows its maximum value being 57.6% at postmortem adult stage with 21.6% fat level.


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## CosbyArt (Jan 12, 2018)

Nanodot said:


> I'm having great luck with black soldier flies right now.  The larvae are extremely easy to raise to pupae, and my gongy's love the emerged flies.  The flies are large, harmless, and more sedentary than bluebottles.  They don't buzz around so much that the gongys are bothered by the flies being left in their terrarium for laters.    My mantids like them almost as much as they like wax moths.       Does anyone have experience using soldier flies as primary feeders?
> 
> In most parts of the country, a small outdoor composter will generate all the BSF you want for free.


You may want to send some PMs to members if you have questions, and don't get a response here. I haven't tried them yet, but is on my list of things to do. There are several members lately who have been using BSF's though...





Ocelotbren said:


> @CosbyArt Hah, I guess that could be it.  Thanks for the information and links!


Your welcome and best of luck.


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