# black raptorial



## sunhorse (Sep 15, 2012)

my mantis has a black raptorial that can't move at all :no: .we don't know what happened to it.we think it has an infection :wacko: !we fed him some honey but he's not interested in insect's.


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## agent A (Sep 15, 2012)

i'd remove it or else the infection will spread and kill him


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## hierodula (Sep 15, 2012)

Yes, I know its hard, but agent A is right. This infection occasionally happens, and its like frostbite in that it slowly spreads across the mantis itself. I would definetly amputate quickly. the mantis ay be able to regrow it over a few molts.


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## agent A (Sep 15, 2012)

hierodula said:


> Yes, I know its hard, but agent A is right. This infection occasionally happens, and its like frostbite in that it slowly spreads across the mantis itself. I would definetly amputate quickly. the mantis ay be able to regrow it over a few molts.


AND some peeps will say (probably rick

"oh if it's a problem the mantis will bite it off"

typically i have seen mantises dont have that capacity and i dont think they'd bite off their whole raptoral leg, and if they do it's typically too late, i had a creo male bite off 2 legs but he still died of an infection the next day

if the black spreads it's a bad sign

on the other hand my idolo has a black spot on her antenna that's been there for weeks without causing any problem and she is abt to molt to adult


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## agent A (Sep 15, 2012)

oh and additionally, if u r gonna remove the raptoral, i would tear it out instead of cutting it

HERE'S WHY:

if u just cut it, there could still be necrotic tissue under the thorax since the claw was rooted into the thoraxic muscles

theoretically, the necrotic stuff will be different structure than healthy tissue, so they will probably easily separate from the healthy tissue

it's like a plant, if a part dies, u can easily pull the whole dead part off the healthy, live parts

that's just my thought

then i'd cover the area with a liquid bandage to prevent too much hemolymph loss

a few years ago we caught a mantis that was pecked by a bird in the abdomen and we covered the wound with liquid bandage and he molted and survived just fine


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## Rick (Sep 15, 2012)

I've removed limbs with this problem. You can prevent death sometimes if it is in an appendage. When it occurs on the head there is nothing you can do.


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## wrenae (Sep 16, 2012)

Thank you all. I removed the limb. Alex was already pretty lethargic, and I think that there is a black spot on his back where the raptorial joined, so we are quite worried about him. He is still taking a bit of honey. This morning he had himself propped over the artificial plant in his habitat, so that he was in a nicely upright position. I returned him to that spot, and he positioned himself again, this time he kind of propped himself up with his other raptorial. He doesn't seem to be visually tracking anything. Really just conserving energy.

Is there anything else that we can do to help him?


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## MandellaMandy123 (Sep 17, 2012)

Well, I hope he's okay, but unfortunately it's not sounding good. The fact that there's still a black spot on him means the infection had spread before you ripped off the arm. I'm really sorry to hear this happened to your mantid.


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## sunhorse (Sep 17, 2012)

he died today after all molt's the infection got inside him:'( :helpsmilie:


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## MandellaMandy123 (Sep 17, 2012)

Oh, I'm so so so so sorry to hear that    I was really hoping for him. Poor little Alex...


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## hierodula (Sep 17, 2012)

So sorry. The worst is having the mantids you care about die for unknown causes. Im sorrry for your loss ;(


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## Precarious (Sep 21, 2012)

Well I hope you didn't rip his arm off as agent A, who hasn't even been keeping mantids long, suggested. I don't even want to know why he suggested something so ignorant and cruel. After hearing that I don't think I can sell to him again.

In most cases if an entire limb died there is not much hope. For an issue that extensive the problem is too deep in its system to remove. Amputation will only weaken the mantis and open a pathway to additional infection. Better to just let nature take its course.

If, however, you notice a foot or tip of a raptor gone black removal can save the mantid's life. I had to do this last generation to my Orchid females. They are prone to fungal infection. Luckily they usually start on the very tips of the limbs. Very easy to snip it off with a small sharp scissors and they do quite well even if missing several tips.

And never try to remove a limb if there is no way for the mantid to reach its mouth to the wound for cleaning. That is pretty much a death sentence.


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## agent A (Sep 21, 2012)

Precarious said:


> Well I hope you didn't rip his arm off as agent A, who hasn't even been keeping mantids long, suggested. I don't even want to know why he suggested something so ignorant and cruel. After hearing that I don't think I can sell to him again.
> 
> In most cases if an entire limb died there is not much hope. For an issue that extensive the problem is too deep in its system to remove. Amputation will only weaken the mantis and open a pathway to additional infection. Better to just let nature take its course.
> 
> ...


ok i have been rearing since 2006, and if the mantis is gonna die of an infection anyways, it's best to try something and if it works, guess wat? he's found something the whole forum can use for future reference

they cant feel pain so it isnt too cruel, and u can use a liquid bandage or something to cover it

i had a theory based on observation of similar processes and merely suggested it as a last ditch attempt to save a clearly doomed mantis

very rarely do i see infections like this but they r always deadly no matter what so maybe a test like this isnt practical but it was worth the input :mellow:


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## Precarious (Sep 21, 2012)

agent A said:


> ok i have been rearing since 2006, and if the mantis is gonna die of an infection anyways, it's best to try something and if it works, guess wat? he's found something the whole forum can use for future reference
> 
> they cant feel pain so it isnt too cruel, and u can use a liquid bandage or something to cover it
> 
> ...


Bad advice all the way around. As if ripping off a limb will magically tear out the root of the problem. A mantis is not a plant.

Sorry, all I see in my head is you sitting in your room pulling the arm of an already sick and suffering mantis. Not cool. End of story. You can rationalize it however you like but that only works in your own head.


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## agent A (Sep 21, 2012)

Rick said:


> I've removed limbs with this problem. You can prevent death sometimes if it is in an appendage. When it occurs on the head there is nothing you can do.


read above



Precarious said:


> Bad advice all the way around. As if ripping off a limb will magically tear out the root of the problem. A mantis is not a plant.
> 
> Sorry, all I see in my head is you sitting in your room pulling the arm of an already sick and suffering mantis. Not cool. End of story. You can rationalize it however you like but that only works in your own head.


rick didnt seem to object to my idea

he posted right after me and didnt say anything against my suggestion, and rick is the kind of guy who would do that if it was wrong

i would never intentionally harm an animal but sometimes desparate times call for drastic measures and while I would freeze a mantis if it were THAT sick, the person who had the unhealthy mantis clearly wanted to save it rather than accept that there is nothing that can be done but to just end its suffering right then and there


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## Precarious (Sep 21, 2012)

agent A said:


> read above


All Rick said is that he's removed a limb. You are talking about ripping the limb out as opposed to snipping it off cleanly.



agent A said:


> rick didnt seem to object to my idea
> 
> he posted right after me and didnt say anything against my suggestion, and rick is the kind of guy who would do that if it was wrong
> 
> i would never intentionally harm an animal but sometimes desparate times call for drastic measures and while I would freeze a mantis if it were THAT sick, the person who had the unhealthy mantis clearly wanted to save it rather than accept that there is nothing that can be done but to just end its suffering right then and there


I have no concern over what Rick did or didn't say. My reactions are not influenced by what anybody else feels about a given subject. You are rationalizing again. That makes it OK for you inside your own head. "Well, Rick didn't say it was bad so that means he agrees with me." Doesn't matter to me even if he and everybody else on this forum actually did agreed with you. It doesn't translate into my reality. In my reality there is no situation in which ripping off a mantid's arm is acceptable.


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## Krissim Klaw (Sep 22, 2012)

Precarious said:


> If, however, you notice a foot or tip of a raptor gone black removal can save the mantid's life. I had to do this last generation to my Orchid females. They are prone to fungal infection. Luckily they usually start on the very tips of the limbs. Very easy to snip it off with a small sharp scissors and they do quite well even if missing several tips.


I've had older mantises sometimes have some die off and blackening to tips of feet and occasionally claws. I have never done anything for it and never witnessed any spreading. Is there a way to tell if the blackening is even an infection of some sort that needs to be tended to?I would hate to hurt a mantis but on the subject of cutting verses pulling a limb my instincts would make me think that pulling might be safer for the mantis in the long run because the limb would come off at one of the joints. Insect limbs to a certain extent are designed to break off in an attack. Pop off a limb to the predator, but save your life sort of design. I would wonder if the limb would have a better chance at the blood naturally closing off than it would with a unnaturally surgical cut somewhere the limb would not normally break?

I don't think I would be able to remove a limb unless someone could assure me it was the only way to save their life and would indeed save the life. Naturally we don't really have this. No mantis vets or intensive tests that can rule out something already having attacked the main part of the body. One of the biggest scares I had with one of my mantises was in my early days when one of mine got her claw caught in the metal screen of a cage. I thought she was going to twist/rip her entire arm off in her panic to get free. Thankfully I was able to push the tip through and she was fine. That is the last time I housed any of my mantises in an enclosure with metal screen. =(


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## Precarious (Sep 22, 2012)

Krissim Klaw said:


> I've had older mantises sometimes have some die off and blackening to tips of feet and occasionally claws. I have never done anything for it and never witnessed any spreading. Is there a way to tell if the blackening is even an infection of some sort that needs to be tended to?


I've only ever had to do this with Orchids. It is a known danger they are susceptible to fungal infection. It starts on the very ends of the extremities and will spread and kill them unless removed. I keep very close track of mine so I spotted it early and only had to remove the very tip of the finger-like appendage that extends from the end of the raptor and the foot of another. It was a very simple procedure.

Pulling off a limb is a ridiculous idea to even contemplate. I don't think you have fully thought this through. First of all you have no control over how much will be removed. Second, you risk damaging the mantid in ways you can't even predict because you would have to hold the body with one hand while you pull with the other. Just picturing that in my head is disturbing. It's not going to come off having a tug of war with it and it's not going to just sit still while you pull its body apart. What's more it would be traumatic. Whereas cutting the tip of a limb is very fast and the mantis doesn't even react.

I would never suggest this if you see an entire limb turn black. It's way too late by that point. That means the body is dying. It's an indication of the much bigger problem that is not limited to the limb. The limb is only a symptom so removal is not a cure. I have seen it happen and it's an indication the body is shutting down. An infection will start small and spread. So if one day an entire limb is suddenly black you are not dealing with an infection.

I agree with Rick that sometimes a limb will go limp and the mantis will remove it. That is something different than it turning black, which is indicative of necrosis.


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## sinensispsyched (Sep 22, 2012)

Yes, I have also seen mantids remove legs.

My fist mantis had a mismolt, which ruined the grippy thing at the end of his foot. His leg was also slightly bent, and he was unable to climb very well. However, he eventually bit his entire lower (back leg, FYI) leg off, right below the joint. Due to that, his nickname became Pegleg.


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## Krissim Klaw (Sep 22, 2012)

Precarious said:


> Pulling off a limb is a ridiculous idea to even contemplate. I don't think you have fully thought this through. First of all you have no control over how much will be removed. Second, you risk damaging the mantid in ways you can't even predict because you would have to hold the body with one hand while you pull with the other. Just picturing that in my head is disturbing. It's not going to come off having a tug of war with it and it's not going to just sit still while you pull its body apart. What's more it would be traumatic. Whereas cutting the tip of a limb is very fast and the mantis doesn't even react.


The fact the mantis was already lethargic and not eating would have been a sign for me things had already spread too far. As for the pulling I was thinking less along the lines of whole limbs and more along the lines of when the spread hasn't gotten that far and you are pulling to the closest joint on the limb that is past the infection. You would need two padded forceps and would pull right at the joint in a controlled swift manner. My main concern with cutting was that the mantis would have a slow death after the fact from bleeding out. It sounds however like you and Rick have both cut limbs in the past without this problem, which is a nice fact to know and would make cutting a much easier process for all involved.My concern with fiddling with them is always that I'll do more harm than good in the long run. Of course you already know I am one of the bleeding hearts on this forum. My mantises are pets for me just like any of my other animals. They all get their own names, have to suffer through my mantis themed baby talk, and even get individual stockings with their names in glitter at Christmas time. :wub:


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## Precarious (Sep 22, 2012)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Of course you already know I am one of the bleeding hearts on this forum. My mantises are pets for me just like any of my other animals. They all get their own names, have to suffer through my mantis themed baby talk, and even get individual stockings with their names in glitter at Christmas time. :wub:


Hahaha! That's hilarious. You know we're on the same emotional level in this regard (minus the Christmas stockings).

Grabbing a mantis even with padded forceps just seems too dangerous to me. I would never attempt it.

I think I stated this earlier (too lazy to check), but it's very important to be sure when removing a portion of a limb that the mantis can reach the wound with its mouth for cleaning. Otherwise infection is very likely. I had an Idolo that lost a leg in molt at the base where it couldn't tend it. There was nothing neither of us could do about it. It eventually died of infection.

Bleeding never seems to be an issue with any wound they can potentially survive. Again, if they can reach it with their mouth they can stop the bleeding. Wounds out of reach take longer to stop.


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## Krissim Klaw (Sep 23, 2012)

Precarious said:


> Hahaha! That's hilarious. You know we're on the same emotional level in this regard (minus the Christmas stockings).


Nothing says it is Christmas time like decorating mantis stockings. =pAs for limbs/parts out of reach of their mouth, have you tried super glue? I originally heard of its usage for arthropods from the tarantula hobbyist. It can save the spiders lives when it comes to something like an abdomen rupture. I would think it would be as effective on a mantis. It could both stop the bleeding and seal the wound off from outside contaminants. One of the reasons super glue was such a nice break through when it was originally invented was because they found it was great to quickly seal wounds in wartime on people. The liquid band aid Agent A mentioned is basically a modified version of super glue. I would think however the super glue is probably more durable in the long run and on an out of reach limb it isn't like it would be something we would want eventually removed.


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## MandellaMandy123 (Sep 23, 2012)

I've heard about a lot of people using super glue in the mantis hobby, luckily I've never needed to try it myself but I have heard of it  

What do you put in a mantid's stocking


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## Krissim Klaw (Sep 23, 2012)

WolfPuppy said:


> What do you put in a mantid's stocking


Usually I use it as an excuse to buy more pretty exo terra plants since they look nice and I like them for my cages and around the room for mantis perches. I always tell them they must be good little bugs or the Christmas Angle Spider will eat them instead of leaving them presents come Christmas morning.


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## agent A (Sep 23, 2012)

lol i love the little spider!!

i cant wait for christmas to come around again


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## MandellaMandy123 (Sep 23, 2012)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Usually I use it as an excuse to buy more pretty exo terra plants since they look nice and I like them for my cages and around the room for mantis perches. I always tell them they must be good little bugs or the Christmas Angle Spider will eat them instead of leaving them presents come Christmas morning.


 Ooh, good idea for stocking stuffers


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## Krissim Klaw (Sep 23, 2012)

WolfPuppy said:


> Ooh, good idea for stocking stuffers


Yep they are lovely. =3


agent A said:


> lol i love the little spider!!
> 
> i cant wait for christmas to come around again


Hahaha thanks. I got the spider at Halloween one year than stitched on the wings and added the outfit. He also has a wizard costume for Halloween.Yikes, sorry peeps, I managed to derail this topic quite a bit. :blush:


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## Bug Trader (Sep 23, 2012)

Has anyone tried to apply baytril to a fungal infection? Being I've kept dendrobatidae for a dozen yrs or so I can say that I have quite a stock of fungal and bacterial meds for the herp collection. I have no been hit with the fungal infections with Hymenopus or any other mantid yet but I do tend to keep things sterile as well as I use well ventilated setups and just rely on misting more often to keep up humidity.

I would think the act of tearing out an entire limb would not only prevent the mantid from being able to clean and manage its own wound but we really have no way of telling what nerves, muscles and such we are tearing, stretching and destroying inside the abdomen further stressing them. Also keep in mind superglue is not sterile, its no longer the quick battle field fix for wounds without a basic knowledge of whats going on you may just be further injuring or stressing the mantis. Nature tends to weed out the weak and damaged on its own, in a controlled environment its up to the keeper to consider a humane ending over a best guess surgery because for the most part when the animal is showing signs such as stunned or slowed behavior its already too late, infections work their way through the inside doing just as much damage you cant see.


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## MandellaMandy123 (Sep 25, 2012)

I've never had a mantid with an infection myself (I've kept mantids since I was five), and I keep all my mantids in mesh containers, which are totally ventilated. A badly ventilated container is never good for any species. Even if there is enough air to breathe, it's a great habitat for disease.


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