# Care Sheets by MantidForum.Net



## sporeworld (Jan 1, 2011)

Isn't there some way for a forum like this to generate/maintain species specific caresheets...?

I know just for Idolos, I've easily put in 12 hours of research just to get a consensus on temps and humidity levels. Seems like a forum with this level of credibility and participation could engineer a way to pull this off. I've seen lots of caresheets on the web, but there's no sense of how credible or reliable they are. And I'm think something like a wiki is prone to tampering (maybe - I'm not that tech-savvy).

A "MantidForum.Net Brand Care Sheet" with comments and discussions afterwards would seem like a smart next step. I feel badly for the new hobbyist (because I am/was one) who needs to gun through volumes of text to find just the right humidity levels (and that's STILL debated).

I'd love to see something like Netflix has for movies: ratings, info, trailers(?)... you get a real good feel for the movie before comitting to watching it. You can read other members reviews (like "Philinyuma sez: Use a Deli-Cup", or Hibiscusmile sez "Give them love and Blue Bottles"... something like that). Even a "Mantids You'll Love" section - if you liked "Giant Asian" you'll LOVE "Double Shield".

Has anyone seen something like this on other forums...? Do we have people here that are techie enough to pull it off...?


----------



## davestreasurechest (Jan 1, 2011)

A species specific care and breeding sections,with personal observations and log info? I am all for that ,...

mantisplace.com has a good start on specific species care,but not much info out there on mateing and breeding and ooth care (other than general info) (unless a discussion on the forum,which often gets off topic)

dont get me wrong there is a wealth of helpful information on this site ,but finding it is a challenge


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Jan 1, 2011)

I agree Mark, we should have a defined set of info on most all species by now? a least a pinned section for newbies as well as more seasoned keepers to fall back on and or learn.

I think Peter, Orin or Rick may have to set the parameters on something like this though. and that will take a few PM's from us to get the ball rolling.


----------



## hibiscusmile (Jan 1, 2011)

I hope to have it on my new site soon, problem is it takes time to do these things, and the men who run this forum have to work at their jobs and other things going on in their lives, like Rick goes to school, so between home and work and whatever they really can't find the time I am sure for the extras, it would take quite a while to do it. I am sure it would be nice, and maybe in time we can all help with it, we will see what they say. ps, just me butting in, cause I know it is hard to juggle all the things in our daily lives.


----------



## warpdrive (Jan 1, 2011)

While I think that it is a great idea, I still have some fears that can crop up.

Say in the advanced section we list what types of enclosures are to be used. This could lead to a hot topic or debate.

In the case of Idolos, I'm quite sure that many members would disagree to start using glass enclosure that are modified to their needs, regardless that in Asia and some members here have had great success with such setups. I could see like on the chameleon forum an "unwritten rule" for the beginner that might not be truly correct...ie: chameleons can only be housed in screen cages or screen cages are easier for the beginner, both of witch are not true at all.

In other words, are we to post what I call old ways of doing things or maybe post some of the new ways when it comes to advancements in our hobby? And who is to say what is correct?

After all, for some, glass enclosures might be too difficult due to the humidity levels at that persons house. While a soft net enclosure might be best.

To use a heat light or not also depends on the environment they may live in too. So a cold home may be fine, yet a warmer one may be unnecessary.

Yet to not speak about such issues in an advanced section would be a disservice for a newbie like myself who is looking to learn far more then just the simple basics.

Just my 2 cents

Harry


----------



## PeterF (Jan 1, 2011)

I have been thinking about this. As well as pins for breeding and keeping feeders.

I think if we, as a forum, took one species at a time we could probably do more than we think. The first few will take some time, but once we have a method and a plan, they should come along faster.

Some members who are more used to science writing will be able to handle the disagreements easily enough to make a final product that acknowledges different opinions among breeders. Even if the writer is biased.


----------



## sporeworld (Jan 2, 2011)

Yeah, I'm sure we're not the first forum to have controversial material, so it's just a matter of looking to see how others have solved it.

Maybe contentious categories would read:

Humidity: 20% at night, 65% day time*

============================================

* Opinions vary greatly on the need for high humidity. See "Why I Don't Spray My Deli Cups" thread for more details.

That, or maybe a few credible reviewers or breeders with a little icon next to the category: "Phil sez: No more than 30%".

Dunno. Like Hibiscusmile mentioned, we'd need the right people with the right resources. Not sure what we have in our collective talent pool. I'm happy to pitch in IF I can and with WHAT I can. Just let me know...


----------



## Peter Clausen (Jan 2, 2011)

The truth is, it is the recurring discussions of previously covered material that keeps this forum alive, year after year.

If we were to create a single topic on, say, Idolomantis, the thread would soon become 762 posts long. I don't want to sort through that for the answers to my questions. Creating a sub-forum specifically for "Idolomantis" would also be less interesting than the hodge podge we sometimes have to wade through (surprising ourselves by other interesting topics on care for species we're not personally keeping, but which still may apply to those we are, for example). Since only a handful of people are working with Idolomantis in the US at any given time, very few posts might make it onto these sections of the forum. Conversely, since so many people raise Tenodera, we might have a preponderance of posts on a topic that really only needs one good post.

Instead of searching the forum for hours and reading hours worth of material, why not just get directly involved and post your questions on the forum? That's what it's here for. If you want to lurk, that's fine too. Previous posts will always be accessible via the search feature.

All the proposed ideas are good ones, but Mantidforum is arguably the most successful forum dedicated to a specific insect group in the history of the internet. Our hobby thrives on community, not expediency of information exchanged. Reinventing the wheel can be tempting, but we have to be careful about implementing new ideas into a system that historically works so well. If you look at the average membership-age of the participants in this discussion you will see that they average about a year, or less (except our curve-breaker, Rebecca).

As pointed out, there is much information on the web to sort through and much to sort through on the archived posts on this forum. When you go into a classroom as a new student, you don't just bury your nose in a book written two years ago. You read the book, ask questions and listen to your peers and teachers. You also get your hands dirty on the laboratory table. Experience remains the best teacher.


----------



## sporeworld (Jan 2, 2011)

Bah! (Spoken humorously - you have to picture me waving my hand dismissively...) 

I respectfully disagree with some of your (Peter) points - mostly from a marketing perspective.

I think the average membership-age can be improved dramatically on the short end by easier access to information - the "zero to one-day" members moving towards several months (and several species). I've dodged many prospective hobbies over the years because the barrier to entry was either too great or I felt doomed to failure. And if my first foray into mantids had ended in disaster, I might have just moved on. Because mantisplace provided me easy to digest info without complication, I ultimately WAS successful, and moved on through dozens of species (and remain fiercely loyal to the people who gave be reasoned and friendly advice).

I'm guessing (since I have no stats to work with) that the typical new "lurker" comes here because:

a. they found, or were given a "pet" by a neighbor or child, and now have T-minus 20 minutes to figure things out,

b. they want to relive fond mantid memories from childhood (probably triggered by "a" above),

c. they've moved on, or added to, an existing hobby (reptiles, phasmids, etc).

In all but the last case, the new-bug-lover may have had ZERO experience with ANY type of animal husbandry, or like me, had almost NO experience with forums (waaaaaaaaaay more common than you might imagine).

Also, although many of the authorities on this forum appear to be quite scholarly, that same tone can be off-putting to someone just trying to be decent folk, and keep their kid's new bug alive - for just a few weeks more. This is EXACTLY my brother's tale. He simply doesn't have time to check webpages (and, just to underline my point above, had never even HEARD of a "forum"). And he doesn't want to do research on this project, or make a hobby out of this. Of course, as I mentioned above, if he's successful, I think he WILL make a hobby out of it, and may even participate on this very forum. The more photos I send of MY bugs to his kid, the more he has to hear "I want one of those like Uncle Mark has!). Yeah... he'll be hooked.

You wrote, "Instead of searching the forum for hours and reading hours worth of material, why not just get directly involved and post your questions on the forum?". I think that's the right sentiment, but not timely. In example (a) above, there's a mantis in a jar on his desk and his kid is tossing the mantis fire ants as play-pals! Ideally, he'd get a quick care sheet from a google search and report back her with specific questions (like, "WHY is my mantis running away from those fire ants...?").

That same google search would NOT directly bring him HERE. But since, mantisplace DOES appear on the first page of that search, I'll admit that the best approach MAY just be to let "the market" do the work - let the sellers create a breeder-based caresheet approach. Then maybe just a pinned topic of "Mantis Caresheet Links" directing readers to the latest-greatest caresheets DIRECT from the breeders. If mantisplace, for instance, had the most credible looking page and the best info, I think that's where the market would go - I suspect they will NOT be solely price-driven for their first run.

In any case, the opening page of this forum says "...Through the doorway below, you can read posts and learn all the care requirements for these interesting and unique pets...". I think that's a great approach - very inviting to the newbie. I also think it makes for a very noble endeavor on our collective parts - to actually provide "all the care requirements" needed for these "truly unique pets".

Look forward to your feedback... but be gentle - I come in peace...


----------



## Rick (Jan 2, 2011)

It is something I have thought about many times. Except for a few species the vast majority of mantid species can be kept under basically the same conditions. Due to this a care sheet would only need give the very basics of mantis care. And most people have their own way of doing things, I know I do. I believe a very basic care sheet could be constructed and maybe even a few for those specific species that really need special conditions. Like Peter said, this forum is a great resource for care advice. An internet search is almost worthless when it comes to mantis care. Most of the info out there is incorrect as well.


----------



## guapoalto049 (Jan 2, 2011)

I agree with Rick. Any type of necessary special care is almost always a popular thread (i.e. Idolomantis). In my experiences, every mantid so far has been very hardy. Even my violins were kept at 75-80 degrees with no special conditions except flying food. Having to search for stuff has led me down different paths (sometimes for hours) but helped contribute to more knowlege.


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Jan 2, 2011)

So it seems maybe a pinned care sheet that is labeled on top "Please use your better judgment or contact a more advanced member as this information will vary depending on your conditions and geographical location" may work? but I do understand Peters view that diving in to the whole pie can taste pretty good and in the end give you more knowledge than one page can offer.

It comes down to how much time you have to burn to obtain the info your looking for I guess.

But Hey I'm basically a newbie here so what do I know.


----------



## hibiscusmile (Jan 2, 2011)

All very interesting and good points, we shall just plod on!

on the other hand, this is my first forum I was ever on, and here is where I learned, I have done a couple things wrong and was pointed in the right direction, so my forum manners are from here, and this is really fftopic: so ignore me, yesterday cooking for family and the 14 hour day did me in and I don't know what I am talking about any longer :surrender:


----------



## sporeworld (Jan 2, 2011)

Yeah, a few hours of sleep and a clear head makes me think that maybe a minimal approach would be best. Again, to reference my experience with silkmoths, I foud this page http://butterflywebsite.com/articles/lizday/moth.html and it was very nearly everything I needed to know to get moving. Pictures and videos and more all would have been great, but this was sufficient. So maybe just a "You have your first mantis - Now what...?" kind of thing.


----------



## PeterF (Jan 3, 2011)

We could also leverage our position to work on getting common names for some of the species that lack them.

It takes time to get them in common use. But we might as well work at it.


----------



## PeterF (Jan 3, 2011)

I must say I find the argument "most mantids have basically the same care" quite annoying.

I want to know what is good for my species, I don't want to know what is good for most and hope that what I have is not an exception.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 3, 2011)

Peter J F said:


> I must say I find the argument "most mantids have basically the same care" quite annoying.
> 
> I want to know what is good for my species, I don't want to know what is good for most and hope that what I have is not an exception.


Rick has been saying the same thing for years, and I was pretty irritated myself, first time I saw it, but over the past cuppla years I've seen that is true.

I keep all of my "exotic" mantids in the same room with the same temp and RH in either 32oz pots or 12"net cubes and feed them all the largest food they will take.I let them molt in peace and shoot for a breeding colony with a M:F 2:1 ratio, separate the males and females until I mate them and do that in the toilet with the seat down, after sunset. Often they lay fertile ooths, sometimes not, so I try again. And that's about it. I talk to the breeder who sold me the ooth or fry and ask for help with any problems I'm having, and they have always been free with good advice.

Remember, little preteen boys and girls and and ancient, half-blind old farts are managing to do this quite successfully, so it can't be that hard!


----------



## hibiscusmile (Jan 3, 2011)

half blind, I resemble that :blink:


----------



## Rick (Jan 3, 2011)

Peter J F said:


> I must say I find the argument "most mantids have basically the same care" quite annoying.
> 
> I want to know what is good for my species, I don't want to know what is good for most and hope that what I have is not an exception.


Annoying or not it is the truth. It is impractical to make a care sheet for every species in the hobby especially when almost all of them require the same basic care. Why on earth would you make a seperate care sheet for let's say a chinese mantis and a giant asian mantis? Care is the same. Except for size, many other species could go right in with the care for those two. Those that really need exceptions would have a different care sheet.

Care sheets would not be all inclusive anyways. What annoys me is it seems a large amount of people can't seem to use their own brains and come up with something on their own. Every little aspect of care requirements has to be spelled out for some people.


----------



## PeterF (Jan 3, 2011)

Rick said:


> Annoying or not it is the truth.


Irrelivant.

There is no reason that a caresheet can't be multi species. The point is to list the species, instead of saying "this will probrably work, good luck".


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Jan 3, 2011)

Well Peter J F, If you mess with the bull you get the horns. ^_^ 

I think Rick is off his meds again?  

Don't ream me too bad Rick It's only a joke, and honestly you have a point.


----------



## Krissim Klaw (Jan 3, 2011)

I certainly don't think a couple care sheets could hurt, but I agree with some of the others that we really don't need one for every species. One of the things I like about mantises is for the most part they are hardy and easy to care for. In fact the only species that sounds all that intimidating is those Idolos everyone is always raving on about. I would also say that 99% of the people that would come running in looking for emergency info on some mantis that got dumped in their lap would also have one of those basic easy species that are generally pretty hard to kill off.

If someone is getting an especially exotic species I would always think they would simply ask the breeder they are purchasing from most of the basics. I know I always ask the peeps I buy new species from any questions I have, generally even before deciding if I want to try the species out.

I like to keep it simple and stress free with my bugs. Truth is, I have no idea what temp their cages are, they get whatever else is going on in the house that day. I also couldn't tell you their current humidity level and despite what I have heard time and time again by all the experts, I still swear by the importance of making sure they get natural sunlight on a regular basis. :tt2:


----------



## sporeworld (Jan 3, 2011)

Well, speaking for the people who "can't seem to use their own brains and come up with something on their own", I think this is a case of the have and have nots. It's like intellectual elitism, and it can drive away nice folk and leave the bitter elite to their lonely, empty forum. Or 5 or 6 active members berating the timid lurker who dares to ask a "stupid" question. :-(

I still believe this forum was engineered for the free flow of information. If that can flow easier, and be more welcoming, why not...? I could make a post this weekend featuring links to other people's caresheet on the web and be done with it. But do we really want to direct new people AWAY from this forum...?

Note: "Common sense" is far from common. Even drinking from a cup needed to be learned - (hint: the open part points up).


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 3, 2011)

Glad to see that you have abandoned your "whatever works' approach for an outright attack on the "haves". You don't appear to be offering anything, but demanding it. "If you [forum administration] don't provide care sheets on specific mantids, you will lose potential forum membersand fail to keep new ones".

New members don't really want "care sheets", they want to know that it is O.K. to keep their new mantis (complete with cute name) in a critter keeper or plastic food container. Years before you joined, a member opened his own website and advertised a rate for a hack to write mantis caresheets. One mantis vendor, probably now extinct, kept on his site a bunch of "care sheets" by a teenager, long out of the hobby, that gave splendid advice, like "don't feed your mantids anything that can sting or bite"

A few people, like Rick, give good advice, year after year (look at the number of posts he has made!), to all of the new members who flood this forum, for free. He will continue to give it, probably long after you have gone on to fresh fields and pastures new. If you and like minded members want care sheets, then design a few dozen and submit them to the forum's owner. Until then, you are hardly arguing from a position of strength.


----------



## PeterF (Jan 3, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> A few people, like Rick, give good advice, year after year (look at the number of posts he has made!), to all of the new members who flood this forum, for free.


Unless you (Phil) get there first and tell the new member they should be using the search function instead of asking questions that have been asked before.

I am fairly certain that Spore's intent was for us as a community to work on the fact sheets. Not for them to be produced out of the aether.

It's a fair topic for discussion.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 3, 2011)

Peter J F said:


> *Unless you (Phil) get there first and tell the new member they should be using the search function instead of asking questions that have been asked before.*
> 
> I am fairly certain that Spore's intent was for us as a community to work on the fact sheets. Not for them to be produced out of the aether.
> 
> It's a fair topic for discussion.


I don't think that I have, have I, PJ,? Though it is a sound observation Can you cite an example? It seems that I spend a fair amount of time giving simple answers to simple questions when no one else (how about you?) has done so. I have gotten a lot from this forum, so I don't mind giving a little back.

I have no problem with the community working on fact sheets, but so far, I have not seen it happen. Perhaps you and Spore will be the first? Alas, though, be prepared for the fact that many members who have contributed nothing will be happy to poke holes in your care sheets!


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Jan 4, 2011)

Well Sporeworld is a A1 member to this forum bar none, he gives to people and wants no fame or recognition so don't judge him unless you have talked to him personally like I have had the Honor to do!!!! he is just trying to make one small point, its not worth brother against brother. SO YOU ALL JUST COOL OUT for a minute...###### is this place coming too,

PEACE OUT


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 4, 2011)

I, for one, death angel, didn't mean to upset you, and aside from agreeing with your estimate of Sporeworld, I would add that Peter JF recently did me a real service and I have no bad feeling towards him at all,.On the contrary, I hope to be able to help him out as he has me.

The art of the well diected insult is, though, a skill in itself, I think. Several years ago, one of my closest personal friends who was then active on this forum, insulted a sub teen girl in such a foul misogynist way that the child never posted on the forum again, but she did it so skillfully that no one thought to push the "report " button. When folks tell me that I am "arrogant" or that I am the "pot calling the kettle black", I have to smile, because my granddaughter Sunny can do better than that without even getting out of bed! Such things are relative, I guess!


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Jan 4, 2011)

Hey Ima FILLIN Its angelofdeathzz, just so you can remember???


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 4, 2011)

angelofdeathzz said:


> Hey Ima FILLIN Its angelofdeathzz, just so you can remember???


Oh, of course! I was probably thinking of "teen angel." So you're the angel of death from Byron's poem, The Destruction of Sennacherib -- "For the angel of death spread his wings on the blast/And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed". I think that that was published in the same year as the Battle of Waterloo. You know the talmudic tradition is that the particular angel of death involved in that strange halitosic disaster was the Archangel Gabriel.

Can we call you Gabe?


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Jan 4, 2011)

Your twice my age and then some!!! so in a war of wisdom I must concede to your wordisim but I got lucky 3 times this week. what you got???---- thats what I thought.  

and Gabe is fine if you must. lol

wow how thing's get weird quick lately???

But on the other hand just because you have more knowlegde than most of us does not make you right on all subject matter. it makes you outdated on many of things just to keep you up to date.

I can't wait to hear how bitter smart you sound on your next reponce? so lets hear it mantid guru(not my yoda) Sporeworld is a better teacher. OLD MAN


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 4, 2011)

You go, Gabe! Tell that old f.. fellow, what for. And don't feel bad about only getting lucky thrice in one week. The same thing happened to me, once, when I was your age, right after major surgery as I remember. It is really nice that you want to stick up for your friend, but I suspect that if he felt maligned, he could stick up for himself pretty well! Now, back on topic, off you go and write a care sheet!


----------



## Bitenomnom (Jan 4, 2011)

Er, so, I hope it's okay to mention this since the topic has diverged somewhat and I'm a newbie on this forum and all, but on the "people coming here looking for information" front -- I don't know if it was an error or something, but when I came here and tried to take a look at the forums, a message came up telling me that I had to join in order to read the content of the forums. I did, of course, and without much grumbling, but all I had really wanted to do was read about others' experiences and such while deciding if/when I should get a mantis, and maybe dipping my toes in the water of the community before posting. If I weren't used to this type of setup from all my milling around similar sites, or if I was, say, the parent of some kid who had just gotten a mantis as a present and I was just trying to find information as quickly as possible -- this whole "you have to sign up" business would have probably kept me away.

Like I said, maybe it was just an error, but if this setup is the case I think the best thing for most people would be to keep the forums open to be viewed by guests, and encourage people who are lurking as guests to sign up for accounts in order to post their questions if they can't find the answers. If this is already how it is, I'm sorry, and I have no idea why I got that error.

If I were to give my newbie two cents on the issue at hand, I'd say that there is a natural appeal to care sheets. I mean, I know that once I own an animal for a while I will realize I needn't do this-or-that exactly, but it's a comforting starting point. For me (a person who is looking into getting a mantis but hasn't had any experience with them yet) what I would like to see would be something like the assurance that by and large care for the mantids is the same, some general guidelines for that care, and maybe a few asterisks tossed around for the breeds that need more attention/care in some area or another. (I mean, I don't know enough to know if that's practical, but it's the impression I get. Like: "Keep mantids in this general humidity range*" -- "* except for this one breed, make sure it's at least this much.") And a friendly nice reminder for the "suddenly a mantis owner" type that any extra questions or concerns can be addressed in the appropriate forum. From my experience around caudata.org (I own a couple of axolotls) it tends to work out well -- the panicked new owner has all the information that has been compiled by the most knowledgeable people to start from in the form of care sheets on the site (they have it split up into some categories -- housing, feeding, breeding, illnesses, and so on, on the forums as well as in the care sheets), rather than thirty people of varying levels of experience tossing out figures and comments of assorted levels of relevance that the new owner then has to decipher and choose between (granted, said person could theoretically identify the most experienced people on the board, but I'm not sure if it's that obvious to someone who's not used to using forums). I don't know if that happens around here, but it's a thought to consider, I guess.

Whew! Anyway, sorry to rant. Er, hope I'm not too out of line. Just trying to help.

EDIT: Heh, a couple of posts happened in the time it took me to compose that, er, novel, so I guess at least saying the topic had diverged was not entirely correct.


----------



## sporeworld (Jan 4, 2011)

Yikes!

Well, thanks for the good words (and bad ones, I guess). I think we're getting somewhere... you know, fightin' words aside.

Yeah, I'm happy to submit a caresheet example or two to get things moving. And I'm a brainstormer by trade, so I'm open to constructive critism. Hopefully we can collaborate and have fun in the process. I can't start til late in the week, but I'll give it a go. I'll stick to species I have experience with, and maybe Entomologic or one of the other authorities can chime in with corrections.

BTW, as newbie advice, "don't give them anything that can sting or bite" isn't completely useless. FF's, BB's and HF's are all compatable with that advice, and for the majority of species, meet the minimal standard of nutrition. But I get your point.

And, as Peter J F noted, my intent IS/WAS for the forum community to work on the fact sheets. I'll try to word things more clearly in the future... and maybe use more happy emoticons!  

Peace.


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Jan 4, 2011)

Hey Phil, my hats off to you! you are funny, and mostly right ,and it's not Gabe, and I'm gunna work on that three times,LOL


----------



## sporeworld (Jan 4, 2011)

Hey, Bitenomnom - Nice!

I checked out this careheet on the site you recomended:

http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Ambystoma/A_tigrinum.shtml

Very clean - nice pics and a good approach. That site has obviously put a lot of work into their content. So, I've got a lot of research to do. Thanks. :angry:


----------



## Bitenomnom (Jan 4, 2011)

Sporeworld said:


> Hey, Bitenomnom - Nice!
> 
> I checked out this careheet on the site you recomended:
> 
> ...


Ah, admittedly I haven't looked at that particular care sheet (I own axolotls, don't have to worry about all that pesky transformation business of tiger salamanders and the like). What I meant to point out was this one; I keep forgetting that caudata.org isn't set up exactly like it used to be: http://www.axolotl.org/

Similar, anyway, but a little more approachable in my opinion.

Heh, sorry.  I don't know that site's history, but I imagine they (and in particular the founder) put a great deal of time into it. I'm sure something that fancy wouldn't be necessary at least to start with. It seems to be a much bigger site, anyway, than this one (oodles and oodles of forums and subforums since it's dedicated to all caudates; though I imagine a majority of the traffic is axolotl owners) so such things are to be expected. I feel pretty at home already here since these forums remind me a lot of those, in setup and so on.

Anyway, I hope I don't come off as uppity or mean or anything, with all my fancy semicolons and so on. :lol: Just trying to seem competent to make up for my lack of mantid knowledge (that is, of course, being remedied as I digest all the content here).


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 4, 2011)

Hey, Bitenomnom, Sporeworld is right, very nice indeed! Writing coherently and accurately (love those subjunctives!) in an informal manner, as you do, is rather harder than writing formally to the same end. I see that you list "writing" as one of your interests (I also noticed that you avoided, quite correctly, the use of the semi colon!); don't let the English department lure you away from your chosen path, not because you wouldn't do well there, but because science is, finally, more rewarding! I personally find your argument more persuasive than the facts merit, a real tribute to your rhetorical skill!


----------



## Bitenomnom (Jan 4, 2011)

D'aw, thank you! I do what I can. :blush: 

(Don't worry -- most of the writing that I do is fanfiction, heh. Between being a scientist who's a good writer and a writer who knows some science, I'll opt for the former, I think.)


----------



## sporeworld (Jan 4, 2011)

Wow. The FAQ's on this page ( http://www.axolotl.org/faq.htm ) are fantastic! Not the easiest to sort through, but great.


----------



## Rick (Jan 4, 2011)

Peter J F said:


> Irrelivant.
> 
> There is no reason that a caresheet can't be multi species. The point is to list the species, instead of saying "this will probrably work, good luck".


Who said it would be like that? The caresheet WOULD cover multi species. I am pretty sure I mentioned that. However, many could fall under a general care sheet and those would be listed. How many species have you kept? Nobody said it would simply say good luck.



angelofdeathzz said:


> Well Peter J F, If you mess with the bull you get the horns. ^_^
> 
> I think Rick is off his meds again?
> 
> Don't ream me too bad Rick It's only a joke, and honestly you have a point.


No meds here. I am not upset nor do I want to make anyone "mad." The bad thing about text is that you don't know the writers' tone. Don't mistake my posting style to mean I am mad or upset at anyone.



Sporeworld said:


> Well, speaking for the people who "can't seem to use their own brains and come up with something on their own", I think this is a case of the have and have nots. It's like intellectual elitism, and it can drive away nice folk and leave the bitter elite to their lonely, empty forum. Or 5 or 6 active members berating the timid lurker who dares to ask a "stupid" question. :-(
> 
> I still believe this forum was engineered for the free flow of information. If that can flow easier, and be more welcoming, why not...? I could make a post this weekend featuring links to other people's caresheet on the web and be done with it. But do we really want to direct new people AWAY from this forum...?
> 
> Note: "Common sense" is far from common. Even drinking from a cup needed to be learned - (hint: the open part points up).


I agree that my comment was poorly executed. You got me there. But elitism? Ha. I am a mod on a bug forum. Nothing elite about that. I also am not an expert by any means. I am a hobbyist plain and simple. Though I have been observing and interacting with these particular insects since I was old enough to walk. I know a little about them.

I don't think we want to drive anyone away to look at care info. I think most people figure out pretty quickly that a lot of hte care info on the net is poorly written. Maybe a lot of you are new to forums. There is plenty of info here already. In fact, I bet there is more quality info here on the subject than anywhere else on the net.



angelofdeathzz said:


> Well Sporeworld is a A1 member to this forum bar none, he gives to people and wants no fame or recognition so don't judge him unless you have talked to him personally like I have had the Honor to do!!!! he is just trying to make one small point, its not worth brother against brother. SO YOU ALL JUST COOL OUT for a minute...###### is this place coming too,
> 
> PEACE OUT


Nobody is judging anyone. He has a valid point. I feel care sheets are an excellent idea. However I feel that writing a care sheet on every single species is impractical. Anybody who has kept more than a handful of species will tell you that. Especially when care for many of them can be lumped into one general basic care sheet. That is the point I am trying to make.

NObody here is trying to argue or "fight" with anyone else. Including me. What do you mean "what is this place coming to?" Check your join date again. You just got here.


----------



## dgerndt (Jan 4, 2011)

Sorry to pop in so late on the topic here!

All of you have very good points. But speaking as a newbie, I think care sheets would be a wonderful idea. I came across this site several times during my search for mantis information. But when I saw that this was a forum and I'd have to join to be able to post, I just clicked the back button to Google search and eventually tried Yahoo Answers again. It took at least four separate occasions of being linked to this website before I finally decided to join. I especially felt intimidated by some of the more educated forum members (including you, Phil. Your type of humor can easily be interpreted as anger or conceit). This is also the first forum I have been an active member of, so I can see why a lot of people would just keep going with Google when finding this site. I did, obviously.

Also speaking from my experience, I searched specifically for care sheets. I didn't want to read small bits and pieces of information from all over. And most of the info I found was inconsistant, to say the least. I feel that even a few good care sheets would help bring in new members, and ultimately keep people from killing their mantids because of improper care and misinformation.

But, hey, that's just me. I hope I didn't offend anyone (especially you, Phil!).


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 5, 2011)

No offense taken, Deby, though I hate top think what you'd say if you did wish to offend!

Let me try a different tack on this.

Newb or not, I'm sure that you know that Yen Saw is the leading mantis breeder in the US and one of the most respected in the world. Have you gone to his website, USA Mantis that he directs you to on his posts? If so, you have seen his care sheets, concise, precise, accurate. And not much good for the rank beginner.

O.K. You have decided to raise Acromantis formosana, a nice simple species. Oh dear, although he has more care sheets than any site I can think of, he hasn't gotten round to that one. Let's try that old stanby, the ghost mantis. There it is! What to feed it. Flies, roaches crickets. Let's toss some crix in with the babies. Well the crix look fatter, but the nymphs are gone.

Worse is to come! He recommends a temp of 80-95F during the day and 75F at night and a humidity of 70%RH How am I going to get a humity that high here in Yuma in the winter? And if I use heat lamps during the day, won't it drop to 70F- at night? No solution to that problem in the care sheet and there shouldn't be or it would be a care tome.

No. It's gonna get worse. I found the environmental paramaters for those A. formosana on the site, 85F and 60% RH (hope I have these right, I'm quoting from memory). Now how am I going to raise these two species in one bug room with such different requirements? In caresheet terms, its a mystery.

And what about other members who have markedly different approaches to raising the same species, like a humidity of nearkly 100RH for flower mantids and a warning to never feed anything but flying insects, and this from a highly respected breeder who has good success with these species.

No, I am not saying that these problems are reason enough to abandon the project, especially as no one, quite rightly, would heed my suggestion. What I do say, though, is that these are real problems and unless you adress them early on in the project, it will be hard to bring it to a successful conclusion.


----------



## Rick (Jan 5, 2011)

I agree with you Deby on the requirement to register to browse the site. Maybe it would be possible that somebody like Yen would post his caresheets here or something along those lines. It does sadden me when people get their care advice from somewhere like yahoo answers. I've thought many times over the years about writing up something. I am sure in time it will be something we have here.


----------



## hibiscusmile (Jan 5, 2011)

Wow, u guys have to much time on your hands, glad I am outta this one. :blink:


----------



## warpdrive (Jan 5, 2011)

ok, I gave my 2 cents, but I got a dime left over so here we go...

even if we have a simple care sheet like Rebecca has on her site, and an advanced care sheet like Yen (i've only been able to find his logs, but they are extencive), there would still be plenty of questions posted on this website.

I agree that most of us keep all of our mantids in the same room with the same temps and humidity.

mantids are great at adapting to what we give them.

but many of us would like to have a few advanced care sheets that describe how they live and there suroundings...like for D. Lobata I would raise the nymphs in deli cups, but as sub adults I would transfer them to a nice enclosure with dead ficus leaves on the bottom and a few branches from my dead ficus collection. the background and sides I can use fake silk plants to add color and contrast. the end result would look just how we would find (or not find) them in the wild. without doing my homework and tons of research, just how would a newbie like myself know how to keep such adults in an environment that best suits them? something that makes them blend in and be a true preditor that they are. beats keeping one in a glass jar with a stick and some ferms collected from outside like I'm some scientist keeping some like a lab rat.

temps and humidity isn't everything. I get lots of ideas from reading and looking at photos in this forum. this is what makes this forum so good. and don't worry Phil, I'll make sure I have plenty of questions to keep you busy even if we have such care sheets with maybe some photos to go along with them to show some housing ideas.

I just wouldn't want any bickering over what is the only way we should keep them. so if you like soft mesh enclosures then good. if someone else likes glass, that's fine too. we don't need to fight over the small stuff.

yet posting some care sheets wouldn't harm this site at all. if anything, it would draw people to at least read (lurk) here and they will know where to come if they run into any questions later.

ok, my dime ran out.

Harry


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Jan 5, 2011)

angelofdeathzz, on 04 January 2011 - 12:43 AM, said:

Well Sporeworld is a A1 member to this forum bar none, he gives to people and wants no fame or recognition so don't judge him unless you have talked to him personally like I have had the Honor to do!!!! he is just trying to make one small point, its not worth brother against brother. SO YOU ALL JUST COOL OUT for a minute...###### is this place coming too,

PEACE OUT

Nobody is judging anyone. He has a valid point. I feel care sheets are an excellent idea. However I feel that writing a care sheet on every single species is impractical. Anybody who has kept more than a handful of species will tell you that. Especially when care for many of them can be lumped into one general basic care sheet. That is the point I am trying to make.

NObody here is trying to argue or "fight" with anyone else. Including me. What do you mean "what is this place coming to?" Check your join date again. You just got here.  

--My comment was aimed at Phil not you Rick.

I don't agree with Phil on saying Sporewold is "demanding care sheets or attacking the haves" I don't know Mark as well as I know some other members here, but I do know he would give someone the shirt off his back if he thought it would help. And I don't understand why Phil 50% of the time is so course and down right bitter sounding to members that are just asking a simple(newbie) question? does he know alot about bugs and many other things, YES he is quite intelligent, so much so I think he doesn't know how to deal with a lesser individual with out sounding like he's bashing them for a simple Innocent comment and or question.

As for you Rick, we don't always see eye to eye but I know you have a job to do here and in the end I think you do it well. I now know you don't sweet'n up your words to sound nice, you just say it like you see it and that's ok and I can respect that. but when some members talk like it's there way or the highway that eerks me. especially when they are so polite to long time members but jump on a newbie and make them feel like a dumb azz for a simple statement or question. I know thats probably not going to change but it doesn't mean we have to take it. I for one will fire back!

Maybe its just the nature of the beast in a forum this large and I'll just have to learn to live with it like others here have? I don't mean to single out Phil but think thats what happened, so sorry Phil if I sound like a younger punk thats trying to rain on your parade, thats not my intent . your the Mantid Godfather here as we all know.

And yes I am basically a newbie here myself I know, but have talked to many member's here over time and they all feel the same as me, some don't even post that much anymore because of what I already stated, so I'm either carrying on like a big baby or I have a valid point? to each thier own I guess.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 5, 2011)

Well, my goodness, I feel your pain, and I have a remedy. The admins here give a fair amount of leeway on posts, but I'm sure that they don't want members being made to feel like dumb azzez. Have you seen the "report button" on the bottom left corner of each post? If you find that I or any other member is posting something offensive, just hit that button. A window will pop up (yep, I've used it!) asking why you are reporting the post and you can put in something like, "This poster is being coarse and downright bitter, again" or "He is really eerking me". If the admin agrees that it is offensive, it will be removed and the poster may even be awarded dreaded "warning points".

Now that that is sorted, I know of no one who has a problem with members writing caresheets. Obviously, anyone can write a caresheet right now and post it under "general mantis discussions". You don't need special permission,

Who will write them? Long-term members have not done so, so will that leave those who have not been here long but have experience (i.e. bred a species through two generations)? I suspect that many advocates of this "project" want to be readers rather than writers, and if I have any objection at all about the way that this thread has proceded it is when I sense that some folks are demanding to be looked after rather than volunteering to write a caresheet, or better yet, just doing it and posting the result. Some folks are putting this slightly differently and saying that someone should be writing these sheets for the good of the forum. If you want something done, goes the saying, do it yourself.

Care sheets posted in the regular forums, though, will quickly cease to become readily accessible except through the search engine, so do you want them in a new forum? Has anyone contacted Peter with this proposal? And to prevent errors that might mislead others, should they be approved by admin before being accepted?

Can there be several different caresheets on the same mantis to reflect different rearing practices?

Should the care sheets be generic, grouped according to the habits and special needs of different groups or individuals? Both types have their advantages and disadvantages.

I must say that I have enjoyed some of the rhetorical flourishes (flourishettes?) on this thread, but now , surely, it is time for the care-sheet activists to settle down and produce some care sheets. I, for one am looking forward to them.

Good luck!


----------



## Peter Clausen (Jan 5, 2011)

I admit I've not read page 3 of this discussion, but two pages seemed plenty. I have taken the opportunity to provide a pinned caresheet in the main discussion forum here:

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=20114

Please review it, contribute suggestions through replies and we'll take it from there.

It will sound political, but I tend to agree with most of what I've read on the various sides of this discussion.

Change has occurred, for better or worse. Time will tell and some of us will still be around to make additional changes


----------



## angelofdeathzz (Jan 5, 2011)

In the end I myself may have sounded a little harsh, but as far as reporting you or anyone else thats probably not going to happen, Its not my style, I would rather deal with it myself(hence all the rambling I've done on this post).

I for one do not have the needed writing skills or knowledge to make care sheets, I think that it would take several members or maybe a large group of members to pull together and hammer out the details, along with newbie's like me adding there two cents before the final draft was made.

It's does sound like it would be a rather hard task to do but not impossible by any means? I'm also not sure how one would get the structure started? a simple post???

Well Peter posted while I was writing this so problem solved I think. -Thanks Peter-


----------



## sporeworld (Jan 5, 2011)

warpdrive said:


> ok, I gave my 2 cents, but I got a dime left over so here we go...


Hillarious!


----------



## sporeworld (Jan 5, 2011)

Peter Clausen said:


> ... I have taken the opportunity to provide a pinned caresheet in the main discussion forum here:
> 
> http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=20114


Great! I admit, I didn't finish it yet (I gotta buzz off to work) but that seems like a huge leap forward. I can see something like that as a pin under a seperate (bold listed) forum heading like "New Mantis Overview" or "Basic Mantid Care" or something like that. It's a really exciting start and easy to build on. Kudos!

I'm still going to spend this weekend researching other approaches to care sheets and see if someone has found a fresh approach with other critters (how do Dog Breeders approach it, or ferrets or inverts or herps). I know members here can (and probably will) contribute pictures to illustrate points - I think the caresheet on salamanders listed earlier in the thread was gorgeous, and the pictures helped lazy readers (me) make it through the text (oooo, if I could just make the careheet into a comic book! The magic of sequential art!).

Very exciting stuff! Thanks again, Peter!


----------



## dgerndt (Jan 5, 2011)

I feel like the whole problem with keeping mantids, and therefore making care sheets, is that there just is a huge shortage of actual scientific information that is easily accessable. This may not be the same for everyone, but I personally want to find out everything I can about mantids. I actually searched for hours, just looking for information on mantids in the wild. I feel like the best way to keep a mantis is to replicate their environment as much as possible. That being said, I understand that isn't very realistic for the new mantis owner, or for people who own many species. But I think it's worth noting in any care sheet where the mantis comes from. Some names are obvious, like Chinese, Egyptian, African Stick, etc... But as we all know (hopefully), Chinese and European are very common in the United States, and they thrive here. Names can be misleading to a new hobbiest, and to make it worse, some don't even _have_ common names.

Basically, I feel like the main reason for care sheets is to help spread our knowledge, and help the beginning mantis lover. Personally, I would _love_ to help with the care sheets (really great job so far, Peter!), but I haven't even raised ONE generation of mantids. Maybe I can help out more when I become an entomologist.  Too bad that'll be years from now...


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 5, 2011)

Well, you'll get there if you want to! Have you just entered college? I see that you are 18. Under the American system, you still have two years (in theory!) to shop ariound before declaring your major. Cram as many entomology courses as you can in your biology curriculum and then you can consider pursuing entomology, like at least two of our members, in graduate school.

In the meantime, consider volunteering at a museum or zoo near you (if there is one), and buy or look at:'

Frederick R. Prete (ed) _The Praying Mantids_, 1999 Now remaindered and quite cheap

Ken Preston-Mafham, _Grasshoppers and Mantids of the world_, 1990.

For a good field guide to the U.S. species, try:

Jacques R. Helfer, How_ to Know the Grasshoppers, Crickets, Cockroaches and their Allies _1987.


----------



## dgerndt (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks for the book suggestions, Phil. I will definately look into those. I see that grasshoppers are mentioned in two of those book titles. It reminded me of something my boyfriend said this morning as I explained to him that mantids live in tall grass sometimes. He said "Well, you know. Grasshoppers live in grass." And so I nodded and figured he meant they live there so they can EAT the grasshoppers. Apparently, he thought mantids and grasshoppers are the same thing. inch: Are they closely related, at least? Maybe he has _some_ redemption if that's true.

Anyway, I just started college this last August (just days before my 18th birthday! Yay, college at 17!). I don't know if they offer many entomology courses at my school, since it's just community college. But I _do_ live right next to the University of Michigan, and there is a really nice museum of natural history there. Not sure how great their insect section is, though.

Sorry for being so off topic, everyone!


----------



## Rick (Jan 6, 2011)

After being here for awhile and doing a lot of reading of the forum and the few good books out there on the subject you will gain the knowledge. It will come in time.


----------



## dgerndt (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks for the encouraging words, Rick.  I have already learned a lot from you and all the other members here. I'm glad there is a place where I can get first-hand knowledge from experienced and intelligent mantis keepers.


----------



## sporeworld (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm still wading through various CareSheet (good Lord, that's taxing), but wanted to check in. Hats off, Peter, for putting yours together so quickly!

As I'm making a mockup and want to use pics from this forum, is it permissable to use the image with a big "pending approval from Precious" written across it, or do I need to get approvale from the author first...? Can I pixelate the mantids face and be OK...? (Mostly joking).


----------



## Koshmar (Jan 17, 2011)

Care sheets are very nice indeed for a new hobbiest. When I was first starting out with stomatopods I couldn't fine anything until I stumbled upon this webpage called Roy's List. After I saw what it had in terms of info, I almost had a seizure due to the excitement and joy. That page of care sheets is pretty much the word of god on mantis shrimp forums. If you guys had something like that, new hobbiests would love it. Here's a link to the page if you guys want an example:

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/

If you guys had access to like an E O Wilson of mantids, I bet you could work to make something with that kind of professional signature/stamp. Just trying to help and give ideas. I love this site regardless though, it's helped a lot.


----------



## packer43064 (Jan 17, 2011)

Am I getting this right? This thread and it's members in it for the most part want to make a care sheet for mantids. Maybe for each different kind, or maybe a general one and then the species that are "different" and not kept like the norm can be made into their own...right?

But it seems that there is fighting, bickering, angry talking followed by smiley faces so you don't show that you ARE really mad whatever you want to call it over the chance that each care sheet might be different. There is a reason why there are hundred upon hundreds of caresheets on leopard geckos. They can be kept DIFFERENT ways, some keep them in plastic shoeboxes their whole lives, guess what they breed like a leopard gecko kept in a tank with sand and everything else that mimics their environment. Mantids are the same way! Nothing wrong with that. Keeping nymphs in a FF container might not be natural or mimic their environment, but its easy. Make a care sheet, telling the reader of this way, then a different approach is by doing this...blah blah blah. Easy enough.

Honestly though, I don't think everyone putting their input into a caresheet is going to work at all. I made a thread on how to raise FF's. If I asked 10 people to help me, we would be bickeirng over the amount of media to put in or if sunlight helps them to get special nutrients which transfers to a frog or mantid and everything else. Just make your own and post it up, if people disagree then who cares. It worked for you and you know this, because there is more than ONE way to keep a mantid which is perfectly fine.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Jan 17, 2011)

Well Jeff, you ask a very good question and I am happy to inform you that, no, you are not getting it right. I see that you joined a few days ago, on my birthday, in fact, and of course, you have not yet had time to get aquainted with the members that you are judging. Perhaps in a week or so, you will have a better handle on things.

I see that this is post #61 and yet no member (Peter, of course, is not a member) so far as I know, has submitted a care sheet, though plenty have seen cause to advocate their posting and warmly condemned those whom they feel stand in the way of Progress.

"But while the mice were cheering this inspiring speech, the Eldest Rat, who had appeared to be sleeping, raised his head and said, "But who will put the bell around the cat's neck?"

Not I, young Jeff, and apparently, not you either.


----------



## packer43064 (Jan 17, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> Well Jeff, you ask a very good question and I am happy to inform you that, no, you are not getting it right. I see that you joined a few days ago, on my birthday, in fact, and of course, you have not yet had time to get aquainted with the members that you are judging. Perhaps in a week or so, you will have a better handle on things.I see that this is post #61 and yet no member (Peter, of course, is not a member) so far as I know, has submitted a care sheet, though plenty have seen cause to advocate their posting and warmly condemned those whom they feel stand in the way of Progress. "But while the mice were cheering this inspiring speech, the Eldest Rat, who had appeared to be sleeping, raised his head and said, "But who will put the bell around the cat's neck?"Not I, young Jeff, and apparently, not you either.


----------

