# Rhombodera (unknown sp. - HELP!) Mating, Ooth



## Precarious (Nov 14, 2011)

I have 2 adult females successfully mated with my lone male. He stayed mounted for 25 and a half hours!

*Still looking for identification. *

Anyone know how to distinguish stalii from other sp.? I was told by one of my contacts these may be Rhombodera sp. new to culture. Shield appears broader than stalii but I have no previous experience with Rhombodera so have to go by photos online.

Females are about 3.6", which is larger than both my Sphodromantis sp. and viridis females!

Male is 3.35", not longer but much broader than Sphodromantis sp. and viridis.

Extensive photos of pre-sub female here:

http://mantidforum.n...showtopic=22221

Would like to identify before I start selling nymphs.  

*Gravid Female*







*First Coupling*
















*First Ooth*






Ooth is as long as an Idolo ooth and literally larger than her abdomen!


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## yen_saw (Nov 14, 2011)

Congrates! That is one impressive ooth! I want to say Rh. valida but there's been too many discussions on this genus so I don't know. All the best and looking forward to see tons of nymphs hatching out


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## agent A (Nov 14, 2011)

what is the tiny ooth on the stick behind her?


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## meaganelise9 (Nov 14, 2011)

I'm no expert (at all), but I'll make a guess anyway. Rhombodera basalis?

http://gallery.sulasula.com/CzechandMisc/Misc/17582262_462bwW#1430490479_r7cgbDD


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## gripen (Nov 14, 2011)

meaganelise9 said:


> I'm no expert (at all), but I'll make a guess anyway. Rhombodera basalis?
> 
> http://gallery.sulas...0490479_r7cgbDD


i kept basalis and it is defiantly not basalis. i would agree with Yen and say it is valida.


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## Precarious (Nov 14, 2011)

yen_saw said:


> Congrates! That is one impressive ooth! I want to say Rh. valida but there's been too many discussions on this genus so I don't know. All the best and looking forward to see tons of nymphs hatching out


Thanks, Yen! I consider you THE authority so your input is important to me. I saw you just posted stallii nymphs. Are these too big to be stallii?



agent A said:


> what is the tiny ooth on the stick behind her?


Her foot is on an old infertile Texas Unicorn (Phyllovates chlorophaea) ooth. There is another in the background. In the upper right corner you can see the very tip of a fertile Sphodromantis viridis (my favorite Sphodromantis species so far) ooth laid a few days before.


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## gripen (Nov 14, 2011)

I remember basalis had a smaller sheild than yours and the colors were a little tamer.


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## Precarious (Nov 14, 2011)

gripen said:


> I remember basalis had a smaller sheild than yours and the colors were a little tamer.


Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it. Sounds like you've got a lot of experience with shields. Between you and Yen I will assume they are valida. I'm really excited to get some nymphs and spread them around.


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## gripen (Nov 14, 2011)

i have to get back into shields so when you spread them think of me


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## guapoalto049 (Nov 14, 2011)

R. basalis ooths don't look like that, they are more globular. R. stalii does not have a brown stripe on the ventral prothorax so that is out too. Those are the only two Rhombodera I'm familiar with!


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## yen_saw (Nov 14, 2011)

Precarious said:


> I saw you just posted stallii nymphs. Are these too big to be stallii?


 Although size is not a good way to identify species, the average Indonesia (Rh. stallii) stock that I know measure to only about 7-8 cm. I wish i could tell you more.


guapoalto049 said:


> R. basalis ooths don't look like that, they are more globular. R. stalii does not have a brown stripe on the ventral prothorax so that is out too. Those are the only two Rhombodera I'm familiar with!


Good observation! I also noticed Rh. basalis has blue hue on wings.


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## Precarious (Nov 14, 2011)

guapoalto049 said:


> R. basalis ooths don't look like that, they are more globular. R. stalii does not have a brown stripe on the ventral prothorax so that is out too. Those are the only two Rhombodera I'm familiar with!


Great! Now we're getting somewhere. Thanks. I was going to contact you last week when the first ooth dropped but the forum was down.

***

Just so everyone knows, that first ooth is going back to Mylo (banned from the forum). He sent me his female to breed because he couldn't find any males anywhere else, including all of Europe. My female is due to drop any day so keep your fingers crossed.


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## Precarious (Nov 14, 2011)

gripen said:


> i have to get back into shields so when you spread them think of me


Will do. I'm keeping a list on interested members.


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## patrickfraser (Nov 14, 2011)

Did I make "The List"? :lol:


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## Precarious (Nov 14, 2011)

patrickfraser said:


> Did I make "The List"? :lol:


Yup. You're on there from the last post.


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## patrickfraser (Nov 14, 2011)

I didn't have any luck with my shield. Only laid one ooth before my female died and it was done in 2 sittings, as she was disturbed by a roach while laying.  I'm sure it/they are as fertile as possible with multiple pairings. But the clock is ticking away and I am starting to lose hope. They were really pretty...and BIG.

...I already forgot about the first ooth with nothing. so this would be a 2nd ooth.


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## agent A (Nov 14, 2011)

The female on your thumb looks HUGE!!! I may get Rhombodera one of these days (after I acquire some Blepharopsis though  )

Keep us posted!!!


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## Termite48 (Nov 14, 2011)

A truly nice looking Mantis and ooth Henry. Of course the pics are great as usual.


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## angelofdeathzz (Nov 14, 2011)

Very nice! Congratulations! :clap: you did it.


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## Precarious (Nov 14, 2011)

agent A said:


> The female on your thumb looks HUGE!!! I may get Rhombodera one of these days (after I acquire some Blepharopsis though  )
> 
> Keep us posted!!!


Hard to think of something under 4" as big but I've really grown to love the Sphodromantis species, especially viridis (will have ooths and nymphs for sale shortly), and was impressed by their size. Never thought I'd have a shield even bigger. This girl is slightly bigger than my Blue Flash (Sphodromantis sp.) and viridis. Her legs are really sturdy like a Sphodromantis.

I'll PM you about who to contact about Blepharopsis.


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## meaganelise9 (Nov 14, 2011)

Mystery solved, eh? They're very good-looking bugs.


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## Idolofreak (Nov 14, 2011)

Nice ooth!


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## Precarious (Nov 15, 2011)

meaganelise9 said:


> Mystery solved, eh? They're very good-looking bugs.


I will defer to the experts and assume Rhombodera valida. Now let's hope I get some nymphs!


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 15, 2011)

Hi Henry: Please don't sell your Mystery shield mantids under an unqualified binomial like Rhobodera valida, R. stalii or R. longa. Here's why:

Very often, insect hobbyists make species identifications in the field without sending them off to a museum or university. We have two great aids in doing this. We can compare our specimen with numerous reliable pix on the internet and in books. We can eliminate a lot of species because they don't occur in our locality. I always use this as a "pre scan". For example, I recently caught a gray hairstreak; I am always amazed at how closely their tail and wing extensions look like a head and antennae. The northern southern hairestreak (yep, it exists! Fixsenia favonius) looks a lot like the gray but I could discoun tit because it lives in Canada.

We simply don't have the same amount of accurate photographic examples among mantids and of course, location is no help for C.B. exotics.

Even accepting the above, we should remember that many insects can only be be keyed out by a field biologist to the genus level, sometimes not even that far. IGM 193 is "cf Rhombodera sp", so the committee of systematists, the last word on species I.D., is not even sure of the genus.

If you sell a mantis under the wrong scientific name, there is a good chance that folks with mantids bearing the same name will not be able to cross breed them, or worse, will unknowingly create a hybrid (very unlikely I know), that will further muddy the water.

I think that some members misunderstood Yen's statements. He is saying that he cannot say whether or not your mantis is R. valida, He is not even prepared to say that of his own specimens and is correctly selling them as Rhombodera cf. stalii ("cf" BTW means, roughly, "probably, but you never know"). This is in line with IGM #119, though he can't use the IGM number without a formal "pedigree' Indeed, if you check out their current list, I think that you will find that no Rhombodera species is given an unqualified species name; IGM 199 is "Rhombodera cf longa. This suggests that the genus is under revision, and it is!.

In your case, Henry, you could either sell yours as Rhombodera sp. or send a specimen off to someone like Christian Schwartz or Lars for ID. Without stronger evidence, comparison to the description of the type specimenn at least, it wouldn't even be right to call it Rhombodera cf. valida.

So there you have it. We have been having similar problems with the Creobroter genus, partly because of the idea that a few pix and a concensus, more or less, of members can identify a species. This may be truse for a ghost or Carolina mantis, but we need a little more for rare or look alike speceies.


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## Precarious (Nov 15, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> Hi Henry: Please don't sell your Mystery shield mantids under an unqualified binomial like Rhobodera valida, R. stalii or R. longa...


Well, I'm not setting up a museum exhibit. I'm only using the tentative identification to distinguish these from other available species so when I post people will know it's not stallii or basilis which have been eliminated from the running. Also, Yen didn't say he had any specimens like this to compare with so I'm not sure why you're suggesting I send one to him. He only said there had been discussion on the genus so he didn't know.

Identification is not in my skill set so I turn the community. When posting I would make it clear that this is a tentative ID. Obviously I'm not looking to mislead or rip anyone off (not that you're suggesting that). Just thought others know better than I when it comes to this.

So meybe yoo kin figur it out with all yur fancy book lurnin an such.







Stats:

Females about 3.6", males about 3.35"

Brown stripe on ventral prothorax

No blue hue on wings

Elongated oothecae

Wide shield

Pink knickers

Gregarious demeanor

Likes long walks on the beach

etc.

You have your mission:

*Get on it, soldier!* :tank: 

Because...


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## meaganelise9 (Nov 15, 2011)

Hahahaha


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 15, 2011)

No one would think that you would try and fool fellow members, Henry, but you are right about not knowing anything about nomenclature!

You don't need to know anything about the subject to buy and sell ghosts, poppas, wallys, idolos and the other commonplace species that are raised bought and sold every day, but you are offering specimens that, if you have them correctly identified are extreme rarities. These were being raised in Europe around 2006 and the the cultures seemed to collapse due to the fragility of the males. That at least is my understanding; I am not a Rhombodera guy and R.valida has not been available, to my knowledge, since I entered the hobby in 2008. In such a case, it seems to me that it is incumbent upon you to offer a diagnosis based on more than the non-expert guesses of members who have no idea about systematics and have not seen your strain, even if you are not making a museum exhibit.

So how do you identify the little buggers? Here are some thoughts. First Google &lt;rhombodera valida&gt; and check the images. You will see a nice pair of pinned specimens that might help. Alternatively, you may write to the insect curator at Texas A&amp;M. Their listing includes this species, so they may be able to compare one of your specimens with theirs. I suggested sending one to Yen because he may have (I'm not sure) a Chinese dichotomous key to the genus. Have you heard of these keys? If not, I recommend (to everyone) that you buy Jaques Helfer's _How to Know the Grasshoppers, Crickets, Cockroaches and their Allies_, available inexpensively at Amazon. He has a dichotomous key for the US mantids which is simple to use and will give you a good idea how to "key out" a species.

I can see why you might not want to call what you consider such a special strain Rhombodera sp. (even I have some of those!) but not want to give a misleading species name. I am sure that you would make yr doubts clear, but I am equally sure that some sellers of the next generation would adverise them simply as R. valida. There is another way out used by entreneurs and that is to give them an English, non scientific name, like "blue flash". Given yr description of you specimens, I would suggest "Rhombodera 'pink knickers'"


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## lunarstorm (Nov 15, 2011)

"WTB pink knickers."


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## Precarious (Nov 16, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> No one would think that you would try and fool fellow members, Henry, but you are right about not knowing anything about nomenclature!


I know nothing about the keys, but I did once lock myself out of the house. OK, it happened more than once. But that was a long time ago (last week :whistling: ).

I'll put my effort into getting them out there and someone more experienced than myself (i.e. you) can do the leg work. I'll just advertise them as "Big Green Bugz!", because I don't even know they are Rhombodera other than being told that, which doesn't really meet your scientifical standards.

All I know is...

*I just love me some bugs!*






KEY: That's you in the helmet. And me flashing the pearly whites.

(Note the pink knickers.)


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## patrickfraser (Nov 16, 2011)

oh, you two...get a room. :lol:


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## massaman (Nov 16, 2011)

contact me to on the thistles as well as I am interested and maybe some shields down the road!


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## gripen (Nov 17, 2011)

check this out http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14633&amp;hl=


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## Precarious (Nov 17, 2011)

gripen said:


> check this out http://mantidforum.n...topic=14633&amp;hl=


Good find!

I was told these are Indonesian. Here is my female as a sub...






Distinct _brown_ band.

As an adult the band isn't as distinct, more orange/brown, and here is where the plot thickens.

Below are comparison photos of my Rhombodera [*A*] and my friend Mylo's [*B*] that he sent for breeding. After close examination I think they may be different species.

At first glance they look very similar.






But a closer look at the underside of the thorax shows quite a bit of difference. I took the following shots under as close as possible to the same lighting conditions.






And the wings are very different. Mantis B has a deeper mauve on her abdomen and it appears this extends to the veins on the wings. Her wings are also a different hue of green. Is that the blue tinge Yen noted on the Malaysia species? I was told these were Indonesian and they do have the red wings Yen noted. Even the male. So they are probably not Malaysian.






The wings also fold to opposite sides. I'd imagine that can vary among the same species. Anyone know for sure?

So my question is can these differences be accounted for within the same species raised under different conditions or from different regions? Or do Mylo and I just happen to have different species significantly larger than the average Rhombodera? We each got our nymphs from different sources.

The good news is my male is from the same source as my female. Should be no issue with producing fertile ooths. I'm not sure if Mylo's ooths will hatch or if they are different species that are close enough to mix.

What say the experts???


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## guapoalto049 (Nov 17, 2011)

Wing folding is a no-no, take note next time one flaps its wings: Each individual can fold its wings either way.

I think the Rhombodera genus is at a big disadvantage geographically to be indentified. There are so many sub-regions where the genus is found, and I'm sure there are many more species than we know of. Think of how many islands there are in and around Indonesia.

Henry, your species looks like a hybrid between a R. basalis and R. stalii. With so many closely related but geographically distinct groups, who knows what is going on! Too many grey areas...


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 18, 2011)

Ah. I remember the thread that Gripen cites, and contributed a post to it. Here are a cuppla thoughts:

So far as I know, both Rhombodera basalis and R. valida occur in the mountains that separate Indonesia from Malaya in the island of Borneo. This is a political boundry, like that between AZ and Mexico, rather than a geographical one like that between AZ and CA, so there is no reason that the "Giant Mayaysian Shield Mantis shouldn't exist in Indonesia, as well. In short, the country of origin is not necessarily a good guide to speciation.

Increasingly, as with the Odonata and a number of other orders, species are differentiated morphologically by their sexual organs, the thinking being that if they do not match, successful copulation will be unlikely. So far as i know, Christian's statement that "basalis=valida" is based on such a consuideration. A year later though, Yen was still not completely convinced: http://asianmantisnetwork.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&amp;t=134&amp;sid=b417d0b10321d2368b1ebfc812609bf9

Some of the observations and many of the excellent photos here are really interesting and praiseworthy but cannot, by their very nature, yield a diagnosis of Henry's mantids beyond the genus level. Only a trained systematist can do that, and at the moment, and these things move slowly, there might not be an unquestioned diagnosis. Although I joked about the possible name for this variety, I was serious when I suggested that it should be given a common name like that used for the "blue flash". If you provide it in this thread, Henry, when you distribute it, everyone will be able to refer to the forum search engine and get a prety good idea of what they are getting. Any other views on this?


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## yen_saw (Nov 18, 2011)

Funny cartoons Henry!

Thanks for the wonderful pics comparing the two. Dr. Roger Roy from France would be the best person to give you the answer. But you will need to send him an adult pair for ID. He responds better to the snail mail than email so write him a letter like you write a love letter explaining your purpose and that will trigger his interest. I will send you his address.


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## Precarious (Nov 19, 2011)

UPDATE:

My female laid her first ooth! Woo-hoo!

Here she is posing with the fruit of her labors...






Slightly different shape to her ooth [*A*] from the one laid by Mylo's female [*B*]. I don't think there is more difference there than could exist within a species.

What say you? :huh:


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## Frey (Nov 30, 2011)

Got hatch today - just around 50 pcs

Nymphs are total diffrent than basalis , fusca or longa

Its sp. valida


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## Precarious (Dec 28, 2011)

guapoalto049 said:


> Henry, your species looks like a hybrid between a R. basalis and R. stalii. With so many closely related but geographically distinct groups, who knows what is going on! Too many grey areas...





yen_saw said:


> Thanks for the wonderful pics comparing the two.





Frey said:


> Got hatch today - just around 50 pcs
> 
> Nymphs are total diffrent than basalis , fusca or longa
> 
> Its sp. valida


Well, the ooth hatched today! 40 days incubation.

And here's the kicker...

*It hatched 357 nymphs!!!*

I don't know if that's normal, but I thought they would never stop coming out! Took over 3 hours to get the bulk of them out. Stragglers are still dropping. So I doubt these are the same species that hatched only 50, Justyna.

40 in each cup except for the front two that have 54 and 62 respectively. That's how I know how many dropped. I put them into the cups one at a time. nline2long: Just found 1 more a few minutes ago.






I sure hope people want these!

I spotted the hatch with only 2 nymphs dangling so I had plenty of time to take photos and video. Here is a sample. Much more to come.

They come out with a black skull cap in place. It comes off and remains connected to the harness.


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## twolfe (Dec 28, 2011)

WOW!!!

Amazing photos...some of the best of an ooth hatching.

I definitely want some after I get back from my next trip. Save some for me!


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## Precarious (Dec 28, 2011)

Tammy Wolfe said:


> WOW!!!
> 
> Amazing photos...some of the best of an ooth hatching.


Thanx! I took over 120 photos! Wait till you see the video. Easily my best footage to date.



Tammy Wolfe said:


> I definitely want some after I get back from my next trip. Save some for me!


Sorry, they all sold in the first few minutes.

Just kidding!  

Yours are reserved. How many did you want? Around 300?


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## twolfe (Dec 28, 2011)

Precarious said:


> Thanx! I took over 120 photos! Wait till you see the video. Easily my best footage to date.
> 
> Sorry, they all sold in the first few minutes.
> 
> ...


Well, maybe not quite that many...Hey, do the nymphs stay green like that? I've never had any nymphs that start out green.


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## patrickfraser (Dec 28, 2011)

Put me down for a dozen.


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## Precarious (Dec 28, 2011)

Tammy Wolfe said:


> Hey, do the nymphs stay green like that? I've never had any nymphs that start out green.


Yeah, they were green all the way up.



patrickfraser said:


> Put me down for a dozen.


You got it. You're already on the list and list members get first dibs.


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## yen_saw (Dec 29, 2011)

Precarious said:


> *It hatched 357 nymphs!!!*


 :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## bobericc (Dec 29, 2011)

I want some rhombodera bastallis

Lol

Awesome pics as always


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## ismart (Dec 29, 2011)

Wow! That is an insane amount!  I hope you have plenty of fruit flies?


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## Precarious (Dec 29, 2011)

ismart said:


> Wow! That is an insane amount!  I hope you have plenty of fruit flies?


I have one culture of each that just arrived today. I'll have to order more. I really wasn't expecting this. I only thought I'd see 100 Orchids but they didn't even hatch yet. Soon I'll be drowning in nymphs! :blink:


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## CoolMantid (Dec 29, 2011)

If you have noticed below me there is a list of what species I want. *Wink Wink* Add me on the list!! PM me, I only want one!


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## Precarious (Dec 29, 2011)

Hertarem45 said:


> If you have noticed below me there is a list of what species I want. *Wink Wink* Add me on the list!! PM me, I only want one!


Orchids should hatch within a week or so, Rhombos will take a few weeks before they hit L2, and I have fresh adult Unicorns fattening up for breeding. I'll add you to the lists.


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## CoolMantid (Dec 29, 2011)

Wow. You have all of them! PM me when you will sell some. I just want one of each.


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## jcal (Dec 29, 2011)

Precarious said:


> Orchids should hatch within a week or so, Rhombos will take a few weeks before they hit L2, and I have fresh adult Unicorns fattening up for breeding. I'll add you to the lists.


Orchids and rhombos. I'll take some of each please. I'll pm you.

Unicorns too....you are like a super center!


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## lunarstorm (Dec 29, 2011)

You counted the nymphs to provide the number 357? You're my new hero. I'd have just pulled a Yen and said "lots."


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## Precarious (Dec 29, 2011)

lunarstorm said:


> You counted the nymphs to provide the number 357? You're my new hero. I'd have just pulled a Yen and said "lots."


The only way to get good photos and video is to have the ooth out of any container so I can get right up close. The only way to do that without it becoming a nightmare is to collect each nymph as it climbs up. If you leave them loose until the skin totally hardens they are super fast! So I stood over the ooth for over 3 hours and collected each nymph before they hardened. Or so I thought. I found one loose today bringing the total to 358!


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## gripen (Dec 30, 2011)

Hahah! I thought I was patient.


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## agent A (Dec 30, 2011)

Yay!!! An even number


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## guapoalto049 (Dec 30, 2011)

Congrats man!


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## sporeworld (Dec 31, 2011)

Not to throw things off even more, but I had (and traded-off) quite a few nymphs that I referred to as "Red Shields". I was told (from a fairly reliable source) they were "Rhombodera laticolli". You can see them as nymphs in...

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=21447&amp;hl=welcome%20spongeworld&amp;st=0

The pic of their parent (which of course, I can't find now) looked very similar. There's a pic on page 2 of one molting to (I think) L3.

Why I bring this up, is that those pics were taken around June, so that might time out right, depending on incubation time. Either parent, if slow, or grand parent, if quick.

This link sends you to the tolweb.org page showing the (long) list of Rhombodera sp.

http://tolweb.org/Rhombodera/12792

Ohhh... when will we get our mantid DNA tests....!?!


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## guapoalto049 (Dec 31, 2011)

R. laticollis are much bigger than Henry's specimens if I'm not mistaken. We need more entomologists that specialize in mantids in this world!


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