# Albinism



## Meiji (Jul 23, 2008)

Albinism definately can occur in insects. Out of the millions of nymphs forum members have raised, has anyone ever encountered or even heard rumor of an true albino (or melanistic or xanthochromistic) mantis? - Meiji


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## JennMantis (Jul 23, 2008)

I have two Chinese mantids that are now adults. One of them is brown with a green stripe on the wings and the other is very pale yellow all throughout. I'm assuming the pale yellow one is albino, but not sure.


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## Meiji (Jul 23, 2008)

JennMantis said:


> I have two Chinese mantids that are now adults. One of them is brown with a green stripe on the wings and the other is very pale yellow all throughout. I'm assuming the pale yellow one is albino, but not sure.


I am pretty sure that's normal color variation. The super-pale ones are cool however.


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## mrblue (Jul 23, 2008)

i have never had or heard of any albino mantids.

i dont really know what counts as true melanism but p.paradoxa can be pretty much totally black when adult. i think i remember reading in the book "the praying mantids" (http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&amp;id=DpQtuB-EVSUC&amp;dq=the+praying+mantids,+prete&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=web&amp;ots=llUpsZvdrN&amp;sig=s3KSsMjklTDrfOOvcjsRVvo4wH8&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;resnum=1&amp;ct=result#PPA109,M1) something about "fire melanism" and some mantids turning black (after moulting) following a fire but i have obviously never seen it myself or heard of this happening to anyone.

i had to look up xanthochromism (has never heard of it) but from what i understand it to mean, i have never heard of any mantids with this either, from what i read it seems to be something mainly vertebrate related?


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## Rick (Jul 23, 2008)

I wish.


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## Orin (Jul 23, 2008)

You can find online references to an albino grasshopper and of course the albino Narceus millipedes but not mantids as of yet.


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## Orin (Jul 23, 2008)

The Narceus millipede follows the strict definition of albinism but according to this abstract the grasshopper does not (though I don't have details I imagine the lack of color was not complete). http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v182/.../1821529a0.html

If I get time I think there were some photos of a Stagmomantis carolina posted a while ago that certainly appeared albino.


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## Orin (Jul 23, 2008)

Back again, the only thing I could find were some no longer visible pic links by Andrew but I don't know if that's the one I'm thinking of (Stagmomantis, not carolina).


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## idolomantis (Jul 23, 2008)

i,m as far i know (and a searched much on this subject) is that there were only a albino millipede.. never found the grasshopper  

but well, mantids can have a natural color of white like(lightbrownish) examples are the budwing, gambians, orchids, and ameles spallanzia+decolor(heindrechi is darker)

my ameles was first lightgreen when i cought her, she turned out very lightbrown.


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## harryallard (Jul 24, 2008)

imagine an albino ghost


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## MANTIS DUDE (Jul 24, 2008)

harryallard said:


> imagine an albino ghost


Would you mind not posting those violent war images? It's not funny.


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## Christian (Jul 24, 2008)

There is no known albinistic mantid. Even the very pale ones have pigments. Mantids have mainly two types of pigments: the green ones are situatued at the basis of the muscles just below the cuticle, the brown ones are found in the cuticle. If a green mantis turns brown, the new brown pigment covers the green pigments and the mantid looks brownish. The pale brown to yellow is just a variation of the brown pigment, also black (melanine). There exists fire melanism, particularly in Tarachodids, _Oxypilus_, _Mantis religiosa _and others. Melanism is abundant in insects, as it is easy to achieve.

On the other hand, pink, red and white belong to the green pigments.

As insect color consists of several more or less unrelated pigments (and sometimes iridescent colors which have a different origin) this may br the explanation for the very rare case of albinism in insects.


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## Birdfly (Jul 24, 2008)

_Mantis religiosa_ exibits fire melanism, thats interesting, never seen one like it mind you but i did grow some increadably yellow ones. I am unsure as to whether it was the tungsten lights (Dry/hot environment) or the light level?  

Off to find melanism in _M religiosa_ now.


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## harryallard (Jul 24, 2008)

MANTIS DUDE said:


> Would you mind not posting those violent war images? It's not funny.


gosh

:blink: 

its only a bloody action film!

cant do anything can i &lt;_&lt;


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## idolomantis (Jul 24, 2008)

MANTIS DUDE said:


> Would you mind not posting those violent war images? It's not funny.


you see barly blood :blink:


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## Meiji (Jul 24, 2008)

Birdfly said:


> _Mantis religiosa_ exibits fire melanism, thats interesting, never seen one like it mind you but i did grow some increadably yellow ones. I am unsure as to whether it was the tungsten lights (Dry/hot environment) or the light level?  Off to find melanism in _M religiosa_ now.


I wonder if fire melanism might be induced in captivity by raising the nymphs on a simulated charred enviornment (i.e. black construction paper or whatever).


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## harryallard (Jul 24, 2008)

idolomantis said:


> you see barly blood :blink:


what does that mean :blink:


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## Christian (Jul 24, 2008)

Meiji said:


> I wonder if fire melanism might be induced in captivity by raising the nymphs on a simulated charred enviornment (i.e. black construction paper or whatever).


Partially yes. But natural light has a lot to do with it, as artificial bulbs will not yeald all color spectra found in nature. There were some old color change experiments with this species. It can achieve almost every color except blue and violet. But you have to paint the complete cage and its interior in the color you want to get.


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## idolomantis (Jul 24, 2008)

harryallard said:


> what does that mean :blink:


i dont see much blood, lol its justred paint or somrhing


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## harryallard (Jul 24, 2008)

exactly

but oh well

if anyone finds it offensive then fine,

i got rid of it

ok back on subject

:lol: 

so is there actually no such thing as an albino mantis?


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## idolomantis (Jul 24, 2008)

harryallard said:


> exactlybut oh well
> 
> if anyone finds it offensive then fine,
> 
> ...


no, its all pigment.


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## MANTIS DUDE (Jul 24, 2008)

Well, I would say that there can be an albino everything! So you there probably is such a thing as a albino mantis! :lol:  :lol:


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## idolomantis (Jul 24, 2008)

MANTIS DUDE said:


> Well, I would say that there can be an albino everything! So you there probably is such a thing as a albino mantis! :lol:  :lol:


if mannage to take a picture of one... lol there are alot of albino things but ive never heard of an albino insect. did heard of a millipede tho.


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## Meiji (Jul 24, 2008)

Since 95% of a mantis' survival strategy is to not be seen, maybe albinistic (and similar) genes in mantis are so rare as to be 1 in 3 billion or something.


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## Meiji (Aug 4, 2008)

Christian said:


> ... There were some old color change experiments with this species (Mantis religiosa ) It can achieve almost every color except blue and violet. But you have to paint the complete cage and its interior in the color you want to get.


Noticing that after it's moult to sub-adult one of my _Tenodera aridifolia sinensis_ Chinese Mantises was turning brownish, I tried a color experiment of my own by placing gold-leaf foil around its habitat. Within days, on it's underside especially, the mantis has acquired a buttery-gold tone that _seems_ to be in response to the color orf its environment although this experiment falls way, way short of proper research on the matter.


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## Morpheus uk (Aug 4, 2008)

I had a popa spurca crassa turn very black when she was near the radiator


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## The_Asa (Aug 4, 2008)

I've gotta try this, even if it doesn't do anything, it's worth a try :lol:


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## Andrew (Aug 4, 2008)

Orin said:


> Back again, the only thing I could find were some no longer visible pic links by Andrew but I don't know if that's the one I'm thinking of (Stagmomantis, not carolina).


Sorry I missed this! I'm not sure if I still have those photos anymore, but I found a similarly colored one last fall(pictured below). The original one I found was slightly more lightly colored than this one. If I can find the photo(s) I'll post them later. If I remember correctly, Jesse (an entomologist, for those of you who weren't around) was confident that there was nothing abnormal about the mantis.

Oh, and the species is _Stagmomantis limbata_.


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## Rick (Aug 4, 2008)

Andrew said:


> Sorry I missed this! I'm not sure if I still have those photos anymore, but I found a similarly colored one last fall(pictured below). The original one I found was slightly more lightly colored than this one. If I can find the photo(s) I'll post them later. If I remember correctly, Jesse (an entomologist, for those of you who weren't around) was confident that there was nothing abnormal about the mantis.Oh, and the species is _Stagmomantis limbata_.


When I kept those they were that exact color. Perfectly normal.


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## Andrew (Aug 4, 2008)

Rick said:


> When I kept those they were that exact color. Perfectly normal.


Of course, but back then the only ones I had seen were green. ^^;

Even now, most of them that I find are green. Makes me wonder just what it is that changes the color of this species.


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## MantidLord (Aug 4, 2008)

On color changing: I always wondered why I. oratorias were green, when there was no green anything in Nevada. So when my female molted to an adult, I sprayed her container, and put her under my bed. When I took her out (a couple of hours after molting), she was grayish brown. I tried it again with a male, and concluded (in my little experiment) that the surroundings had almost nothing to do with the color of my mantids (as I had green in both containers, and even went through the trouble of placing green paper under and beside their containers). The humidity and light did. That's why the wild I. oratorias I've seen were green. Nevada is an arid and dry place, with lots of light and heat. So maybe the heat from fire and smoke turns the mantids black. That's why someone said theirs turned black when it was by a raidiator. I'm am so smart  B)


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## ABbuggin (Aug 4, 2008)

Christian said:


> There exists fire melanism, particularly in Tarachodids, _Oxypilus_, _Mantis religiosa _and others. Melanism is abundant in insects, as it is easy to achieve.On the other hand, pink, red and white belong to the green pigments.


Hmmmm, I have to try that with my Tarachodes! So all I have to do is house some in a totally black environment, keep them warmer than normal and they will be black instead of tan? Sorry for the questions, I've never heard of this phenomenon before.  

AB

PS. Does fire melanism exist in Gongylus? I'm asking because I've seen pics of totally black gongyolus before. :blink:


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## mantidsandgeckos (Aug 5, 2008)

Wow, I would like to see an albino deroplatys sp!


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## Meiji (Aug 5, 2008)

ABbuggin said:


> Hmmmm, I have to try that with my Tarachodes! So all I have to do is house some in a totally black environment, keep them warmer than normal and they will be black instead of tan? Sorry for the questions, I've never heard of this phenomenon before.


No, you have to actually hold them over an open flame. Be careful.

Meiji in Boston

PS - I am NOT serious!


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## Christian (Aug 5, 2008)

Fire melanism occurs because of the black, charcoaled environment, not because of heat...

I think we should make this very clear, given the stuff I have read here recently... :lol:


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## MantidLord (Aug 6, 2008)

Christian said:


> Fire melanism occurs because of the black, charcoaled environment, not because of heat...I think we should make this very clear, given the stuff I have read here recently... :lol:


You can't mean that the heat has no effect on the mantis. Mantids don't alway change just based on their surroundings. If someones insect turned black by a radiator, how do you suppose this? I doubt it was in total darkness. Heat levels and humidity have a factor just as surroundings do. Of course the factors may vary in importance from species.


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## The_Asa (Aug 7, 2008)

MantidLord said:


> You can't mean that the heat has no effect on the mantis. Mantids don't alway change just based on their surroundings. If someones insect turned black by a radiator, how do you suppose this? I doubt it was in total darkness. Heat levels and humidity have a factor just as surroundings do. Of course the factors may vary in importance from species.


Christian is saying that fire melanism is not caused by heat. Not that heat has no effect?


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## Christian (Aug 7, 2008)

If temperature had such an effect, all _Blepharopsis_ and _Gongylus_ would turn black. The only factors which are known to date to influence color are humidity, light intensity and spectrum, and color of the surroundings. If temperature had an effect, it certainly wouldn't lead to fire melanism. This term just means turning very dark after a fire, it does not implicit that the fire is directly influencing the color. It is the environment that causes the change, not the temperature. If you don't know it yet, fire kills everything... :lol:


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## Orin (Aug 7, 2008)

Christian said:


> The only factors which are known to date to influence color are humidity, light intensity and spectrum, and color of the surroundings.


You're forgetting the texture of the branches/perches. This can be more important than the rest.


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## Christian (Aug 7, 2008)

The texture of the branches doesn't influence the color. The color patterns of the branches may do so, however. If you meant this, then we agree. I classify this still as color of the environment. I understand texture as the (morphological) shape of the bark (smooth, rough, with plates etc.), which may have triggered the evolution of some morphological traits but doesn't have effect on ontogenetic color change.


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## ABbuggin (Aug 7, 2008)

Christian said:


> If you don't know it yet, fire kills everything... :lol:


lol so funny :lol: 

Thanks a lot for all the info, I'm going to try to get some black gongylus.


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## Orin (Aug 7, 2008)

Christian said:


> The texture of the branches doesn't influence the color.


What's your reference for that statement? You do realize there are detailed experiments with a number of insects (there are some neat ones on various butterfly chrysalis) showing the texture is the cause of many specific color changes?


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## Christian (Aug 7, 2008)

I refer to mantids. It may be true in butterflies or lizards, but there is no experimental proof of *morphological* branch texture to have an effect on mantids. *Color patterns* of the perch do, however, so I ask again to define what you exactly refer to when talking about "texture".


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## Orin (Aug 7, 2008)

Here's a butterfly journal article: insect color change mechanisms abstract


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## Christian (Aug 7, 2008)

Well, that article refers to the light spectrum, luminance and color of the pupal environment, so there is no contradiction to what I have said. It is clear that any light and color effects affect mantid coloration. But, mantid coloration has nothing to do with the three-dimensional texture of the branch. If a mantid becomes marbled because there are lichens and mosses on the bark, it is because of the marbled color of those mosses and lichens, not because there are lichens, mosses or whatever structure protruding from the bark.


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## Orin (Aug 7, 2008)

Christian said:


> Well, that article refers to the light spectrum, luminance and color of the pupal environment, so there is no contradiction to what I have said.


Read the last sentence of the abstract. Obviously you only read what you want to and then your eyes close. Maybe if you read the whole article and noticed the title of the article: *TWO* different sensory mechanisms....

I imagine you have journal references for the various color change mechanisms you listed specific to mantids? Please list them.

The texture of the coating on metal screen (not color) affects mantids and phasmid coloration, this has been known for some time with phasmids.


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## Christian (Aug 7, 2008)

Oops, I overead the last stuff.  

However, there isn't known anything like this in mantids. I can give no reference for this kind of stimulus, as it was not found in mantids and thus there is no reference. Regarding light, humidity and environmental color please check the works of Ergene (1953), Robinson (1969a and b ), Edmunds (1972), (1976), (1986) and (1999) for a review, respectively. There are several other works which I haven't found in the past 10 minutes plus my own observational data. Show me a work where this is proven for mantids, and I'll accept it. Phasmids, moths or whatever are not mantids. By the way, I would like to have that work which has demonstrated it for phasmids.


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## Orin (Aug 7, 2008)

Mueller (2002), Kashida (1971) respectively.


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## Christian (Aug 7, 2008)

Thanks.


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## MantidLord (Aug 8, 2008)

Christian said:


> Thanks.


well...what do you say. Do you agree with Orin?


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## Christian (Aug 8, 2008)

No. I just thanked him for the literature tipps. I still think texture has no influence on mantis coloration.


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## jason_mazzy (Aug 13, 2008)

I work alot w/ genetics, and perhaps I can get my friend to look here as he is lead geneticist for nc state, but albinism isn't just a lack of color or pigment. it is the lack of a certain color (generally melanin which produces varying shades of black and brown). Such as my albino Boas, though they are true albino's they have varying shades of orange and yellow left. My anetherystics have no red pigment (ie no brown) so they apear black and white (w/ varying degrees of yellow) Yellow is produced by xanthin, so U would need the axanthic gene to remove that color. Basically U may have seen color morphs already and not reall noticed. or just seen one that looked different, but didn't register as something unique. I believe it is and will be very hard to isolate genes, because mantids naturally use diverse color genes to survive. That is why U can get so many varieties of color from two mantids. the offspring disperse, leaving the gentic weak to be picked off early, ([hypothetical situation]in this case the weakness is color) the greens survive more efficiently in this area because of all the foilage, but if two greens mate they still produce brown's. the reason being as nature knows things change. perhaps this was an exceptionally dry year, so the greens get picked off in great numbers and the fewer browns survive to mate.

I do believe that genetic anomalies do happen. and the only way to pinpoint one is to take what may be a unique or desreable color and breed it. Then U must take the offspring and breed them back to eachother. By doing that U can check for anomalies. Then U can begin on breeding hetrozygous and homozygous forms. The most stunning generally are a combination of recessive genes. Such as an anery/albino. That would most likely be solid white. Or Solid white base color with translucent yellow, or lavender markings where the pattern was. Hope this helps.


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## jason_mazzy (Aug 29, 2008)

no one here likes genetics?


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