# Escaped mantis vs Environmental damage



## captainmerkin

I recently had someones friend over in a rather drunk state who works with bacterial cleansing and evaluation for the british government, in his drunkard state he got convinced that there could be issues with escaping mantis causing an environmental impact in the UK.

Now my main debate was this:

Escaping mantis cannot survive the uk winter -10 degrees C on occasion but most likely around +2 c to - 5 c

No breeding partners

Inability to hunt due to lower temps after summer months

lack of food after summer months, lots of invertibrates tend to vanish in the uk between october - march

now lets take his argument:

warmer climate as things stand currently (im not convinced thats it will be high enough in near future to support mantis)

possible other escapees to breed with ( well possibly but in brixton hardly likely)

invertabrates ability to survive drastic climate and environmental changes ( possibly )

your thoughts?


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## Rob Byatt

I see both points of view and we should all be careful to reduce the risk of escapees, but the British summertime is no long enough for most species to mature, even _Tenodera aridofolia_ would struggle to mature in time. As you said, the winter would kill of most individuals.


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## edash

What about species which could go into diapause in cold months? I know _Empusa pennata_ does, do any others?

Though, with -10oC, they wouldn't survive that


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## Asa

If one does escape, it is usually only drastic if it is a rare species. Otherwise, in the UK, it won't survive the winter.


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## OGIGA

If a mated adult female escaped, I can see a potential problem. I don't know what kind of ootheca survives -10c but it might be possible.

As far as environmental impact, I'm really clueless. I don't really know how that works. Yeah, maybe someone can explain.


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## Asa

> If a mated adult female escaped, I can see a potential problem. I don't know what kind of ootheca survives -10c but it might be possible.As far as environmental impact, I'm really clueless. I don't really know how that works. Yeah, maybe someone can explain.


Ohh, I didn't consider that. Still, it would have to be a pretty hardy ooth to survive that! One of the reasons I wouldn't want to live in the UK, it's too cold.


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## Hypoponera

The winter temps are not a real problem for many common US species. How cold does it get in New York or Chicago during the winter? I don't recall RAF Upper Hayford being nearly as cold as Chicago!!

I remember winter In central Ohio getting cold enough to weaken weld beads on dozer blades!! And yet, the Chinese, European and Stegmomantis all seem to survive in the ootheca. Doesn't the Chinese mantid range into Southern Canada? I know L. minor reaches Southern Canada.


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## Asa

Well, I guess that settles it. Do not let your mantis escape on pain of death!


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## OGIGA

But I still want to know how it affects the environment... I mean, do they eat everything?


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## Hypoponera

I don't think a population of mantids would eat everything. In fact, I doubt there would be any really notable environmental damage. We have had several species introduced into the US with little or no real problems. I don't think there is any evidence that the introduced species have pushed out any of the native mantids or driven other species into local extinction.


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## Asa

There are cases where this has happened. Not in the US but in places like India.


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## Hypoponera

That is true. In the US, both the Black and the Red imported fire ants have caused serious environmental damage. They have eliminated native ants from huge areas. Likewise, in California, Argintine ants have devastated local ant species!

But I don't think any species of mantid would be capable of causing nearly as much damage! But I still wouldn't recommend intentional release.


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## markdneck

Most species of ants fight with other similar colonies over territory and keep their numbers dowen that way but I have heard that the Agentines (Iridomyrmex humilis) all have the same DNA, all originated from one queen and so they sort of buddy up. Where I live, Irvine in the "OC" they have eliminated all native ants including big red ants many times their size. They live deep underground, under all of our homes and any lax housekeeping results in an immediate invasion of seemingly millions of ants. One tiny spec of pet food or candy dropped by a child means ants invading through electerical sockets, plumbing fixtures, under doors. At least fireants don't come inside.

If we could develop and patent a mantid that ate Argentines, we'd get rich in a hurry!


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## Hypoponera

If you could come up with ANYTHING effective on Argies, you would be rich!!


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## Asa

Very, very, very rich.


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## athicks

Yeah, mantids do not seem to have the capability to do too much environmental damage. I mean, unlike ants they don't compete with colonies for territory, and they don't terraform. They are such solitary insects that the impact would be minimal. And, they would not survive the winter or find a mate. But it is still unethical and illegal to do something like that.


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## Asa

Very unethical. No worry here though, wouldn't want to lose any of my precious mantids


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## OGIGA

Okay okay, now I know what releasing non-native insects do.


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## Asa

Had your fill, huh? :lol:


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## yen_saw

The only mantis species i ever released was chinese mantis. But doubt any survive in my backyard. Guess that's why so many nymphs hatched out from single ootheca.


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## Hypoponera

And I thought you would have wanted to start up a wild population of "Texas Unicorn " mantids in the Houston area! They are native to Southern Texas. Why not get em started in central Texas?

I actually started this post as a joke. After thinking about it, I think you could release that species in Houston legally. At least your unicorn mantids are a native of Texas. Those Chinese are an introduced species.


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## captainmerkin

I really don't think that stating "they cant really do much damage honestly can they" is a very good approach..

I am sure that those words have been uttered many times before "oooh yeah I know, Cane toads they wont do any real harm will they"

and "ok predatory snails will obviously not want to eat all our dinky little polynesian tree snails now will they", "nah it will be fine"..

I think in the UK there is a very low risk of escapees surviving the winter unless they are very hardy.. but none the less you cant rule out a mated mantis escaping out a window and finding a warm garage with a boiler to lay its ooths.. plenty to eat in the average garage as well certainly at least for a female (maybe not all the sprogs though).. and if the ooths hatch out in spring or later, then you have a real cycle on the go.

But realistically I still am not sure that this would happen, though I bet nature will prove some of us wrong in time.

Even putting the idea of deliberately releasing non regional mantis into someones head is not a good idea, some people out there like to see their animals flourish and that can really cause problems if they do!


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## Asa

As I said, just don't let them escape :wink: .


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## captainmerkin

> As I said, just don't let them escape :wink: .


thats a very naive attitude I think, I bet plenty of people here have had the odd mantis or two escape in their time despite their best efforts.

My question is not about how to stop them escaping its about the (what I consider) inevitability of some escaping at some stage and what the consequences would be to the environment.


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## Hypoponera

I agree that the release of non-native mantids is inevitable. I worked in a research lab in a university and saw many near escapes. I am sure there were a few escapees that actually DID get away. So I could easily see a hobbiest loosing a couple. I have young kids who would love to take out some of my mantids. I have to keep mine under lock and key!

I don't think the more sensitive tropical species would survive a UK winter. But several species found in the US would. Fortunately, the impact would be minimal, IMHO! As a generalist predator, it could eat most insects in England. But it would not eat all of them. To do so would result in the mantids starving. Also, mantids suffer such high, natural, mortality that population numbers would never reach "epidemic" proportions. Thus a reproducing population could be established, but shouldn't be too destructive. But lets try not to test my hypothesis out!!


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## Asa

> As I said, just don't let them escape :wink: .
> 
> 
> 
> thats a very naive attitude I think, I bet plenty of people here have had the odd mantis or two escape in their time despite their best efforts.
> 
> My question is not about how to stop them escaping its about the (what I consider) inevitability of some escaping at some stage and what the consequences would be to the environment.
Click to expand...

Probably zip.


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## captainmerkin

> As I said, just don't let them escape :wink: .
> 
> 
> 
> thats a very naive attitude I think, I bet plenty of people here have had the odd mantis or two escape in their time despite their best efforts.
> 
> My question is not about how to stop them escaping its about the (what I consider) inevitability of some escaping at some stage and what the consequences would be to the environment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Probably zip.
Click to expand...

perhaps you would care to ellabourate?

that sounds just like the logic that has caused so many problems in the past for indigenous species..

"Recon all these rats we let off the boat on this island will cause any real damage... nope probably zip."

I am trying to get a balanced view from people with experience, rather than just a straight yes or no which is utterly useless as a comparison.

Hypoponera for example makes a good balanced argument as do many others!

Im not going to be having a go at anyone that keeps non native species, but its good to not bury your head in the sand and pretend if things go wonky its all going to be ok.


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## Asa

:lol: 

Note that I said probably on previous posts. It's a logical disability to assume that something will not happen. I'm not too big on this stuff, so the only way I can elaborate, is plainly to do your best to not allow them to escape, and if they do, mourn their death. A rather simplistic idea.


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## yen_saw

> And I thought you would have wanted to start up a wild population of "Texas Unicorn " mantids in the Houston area! They are native to Southern Texas. Why not get em started in central Texas? I actually started this post as a joke. After thinking about it, I think you could release that species in Houston legally. At least your unicorn mantids are a native of Texas. Those Chinese are an introduced species.


Is there a limit as to where or how far can you release a native species within a state? Texas is a huge state. So far the Texas Unicorn ootheca hatched out without needing a diapause. It gets pretty cold during winter even in Dallas (middle of Texas) and i really doubt any could survive the winter up North Texas. Maybe i should put one Texas Unicorn ooth in the fridge as experiment.


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## Hypoponera

While state laws vary, I doubt you would get into any legal trouble. You would be releasing not only a state-native species, but also a benificial. You should be safe releasing them anywhere in Texas. Besides, you can legally release the introduced Chinese in most, if not all, states. If you can release an introduced species, I would think releasing a state-native to do the same job would be OK. It might even be prefered!!

Now the problem would be if I released those Texas unicorns here in New Mexico. They are not native to my state and so release could have legal problems. But at least I might be able to claim that the unicorns are a US native. I can legally release the Chinese so a native of Texas "should" be OK for release. Fortunatly, if I get any of your unicorns, I don't think I would be releasing them!!


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## yen_saw

Do we still consider chinese mantis an introduce species? It has been in the USA for a long time and also an established species. If you can release introduce species, any import species can be intorduce into the wild which is wrong.

Mike, please find those elusive Arizona unicorn mantis!!


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## Hypoponera

I believe the Chinese, European, Narrow-wing and Mediterrainian are now considered "naturalized" species. Does anyone know if and where the species other then the Chinese are being released as biocontrol agents?

I wish I could find the Arizona unicorn! I tried for several years when I lived in Tucson. The only one I ever found was in the teaching collection though. It's data label said it was caught in Tucson. I searched and black-lighted every mountain and hill within a 2 hour drive of the city. No luck! I am beginning to think the species was invented as a cruel joke!!


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## Asa

> Do we still consider chinese mantis an introduce species? It has been in the USA for a long time and also an established species. If you can release introduce species, any import species can be intorduce into the wild which is wrong.Mike, please find those elusive Arizona unicorn mantis!!


Just a few months ago, I went on a searching spree for those mantids. I also am beginning to believe they are fake. I had an entire team of entomoligists looking for it!


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## awesomebillfromdawsonvill

The suggestion to yen to start a wild uinicorn pop in his city? I just wanted to say heck yeah to that!!! Thats probly legal.... right? Any ways thats the best ideas ive heard all day, go for it! Unicorns are mybe a little endagered even, no? I thought that they are some what rare in the wild, and i would not be surpised to find that was becasue of human tampering, so a little bit of human help would not hurt... right? sure.... lolz :lol:


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## hibiscusmile

> I believe the Chinese, European, Narrow-wing and Mediterrainian are now considered "naturalized" species. Does anyone know if and where the species other then the Chinese are being released as biocontrol agents?"I know the European and Chinese survive -15F here in Ohio with seemingly no problems, though I am sure a few do not make it, but the weather here is pretty rough and I see them all the time. The European is used for release into farmers fields also. Though most do not agree that they are as beneficial as once felt. They say they eat the good bugs too. But I must say I do not see a decrease in alphids and ladybugs to make me worry. Mine do not want anything with a shell on its back! There is merit in not releasing native species thought. The mussels on the hulls of ships are doing a lot of damage being brought into US waters now. They were obviously not looking for such a thing sticking onto the bottoms of ships/boats and now we are having problems with them and they do not know how to stop it.


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## yen_saw

I am still playing with the thought of releasing Texas Unicorn nymphs, I have lot of them right now, but still wary of releasing them in the public park, partly due to the everlasting rain here in Houston area.


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## hibiscusmile

Our laws here in Ohio, are that nothing can be added (as in plants, animals, insects, avian, fish) to any park, lake, roadway or other, or taken away. I wanted to sow seeds along the highways to change the ugly view, (u know where the grass is) but decided to look it up first, good thing I did. I'ds be in jail now. lol!


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## yen_saw

I believed there is no difference between Texas and Ohio law in releasing animal in the park. I better find out in advance, thanks Rebecca!


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## Rob Byatt

To me it is just common sense to *not * release a non native species, regardless of the laws.


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## Asa

I wouldn't want to release any of my non native species. They are my babies.


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## captainmerkin

In the UK it can be highly illegal to release native species into areas.

For example slow worms (these are legless lizards and considered protected in the UK), you can capture them, breed them, but you cannot release them into the wild again without autorisation.

Basically this is because of desease, releasing non regional animals into an area where they are not currently dispersed, damage to food chains etc..

I would imagine that taking unicorn mantis breeding them and releasing a truck load of them where there are not any would carry a suitable sentence just like dumping a load of slow worms in london would without permission from the relevant parties.

Law is not my strong point but I don know a few baiscs of species re-introduction or dispersal where they are not established, more over the rules with certain things in the UK.


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## Asa

Unfortunately, in the US, things aren't anywhere near as strict.


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## captainmerkin

> Unfortunately, in the US, things aren't anywhere near as strict.


I am sure that there is some legislation surely? But the US is a bloody huge place, must be very hard to regulate that kind of this to be honest, it certainly isnt an easy matter in the UK from what I gather either!

I think that common sense also takes a big part in peoples attitudes towards this kind of thing as well, that goes for all over the world.


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## yen_saw

Just told by an entomologist here that releasing in the public area (not including designated parks) is OK providing that the species is not new to the region, but permission is still needed from USDA as to ensure no parasites or diseases are brought in with the released species. It has been done before, releasing butterfly/bee when the region needs them to establish a balance ecology. When i asked about Texas Unicorn in Houston, the answer is no!! and the person also told me an interesting fact. THat is eventhough Texas is a huge state, 98% of the land are privately own, so it is like loosing some bugs in someone else backyard if releasing them accidentally. That is a serious crime!! However, i agree that it is very hard to control.


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## Christian

Hi.

Releasing animals into new areas may be illegal in some countries, or just not much appreciated in others. But, as Rob said, it is just common sense not to do it anyway. There are a lot of examples where this happened in the past, and in most cases the damage was higher than the use.

I agree that mantids are not really dangerous. Their impact on an ecosystem is very low, particularly in the depauperate Nearctic and Palearctic Region. The Ice Ages killed out most subtropical taxa, and while the Nearctic was repopulated by some taxa and is more diverse today than similar Palearctic regions, mantids were not much among those reinvaders. Over here, the Alps hindered some taxa to repopulate former regions, and, regarding mantids, only _M. religiosa_ managed to go as far north. So, comparing to East Asia, the Northern Ecosystems can support more mantid species than they own today. That's the reason why 4 (!) mantid species could establish in N-America. At least one of them (_T. sinensis_) was introduced intentionally, as past control agent. Well, this role may be questioned, as they also feed on bees and other beneficial insects (they are "ecologically indifferent"), but this was found out later when the species became established throughout the whole East-Coast. Other invaders were by far less "indifferent" and cause major costs in agriculture and elsewhere. That's why *nothing* from the hobby should be released, regardless if it is native to other parts of the country or not. This is, by the way, exactly the reason for the strict pet laws which appeared in America some time ago. Every attitude like this gives the sceptics right and complicates life for all serious hobbyists.

If a species is already there and fits well into the ecosystem, ok, let's have it a good life. But releasing new ones intentionally is really not a good idea. Even a mantid may turn out to become a threat for something native, even it this is also a mantid, as already has been seen in _Tenodera sinensis_ vs. _Stagmomantis carolina_. So, guys, just don't do it!

_Phyllovates chlorophaea_ is a tropical genus. It reaches Texas SE just because the favorable climate there. The proximity to the Gulf favors mild winters, and this is the only reason the species can survive there. Do you really think the species would not occurr elsewhere today if it just could support it?

So, it's really better just to breed your stuff and to have fun. Mankind damaged natural ecosystems enough, don't you think? :wink:

Regards,

Christian


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## Asa

I agree with Christian.


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## awesomebillfromdawsonvill

bah! i say Bah! How do you know that the only thing stopping them from spreading up further is not due to natural ecosystems damaged by mankind? Most manti reproduce and spew out hundreds of nymps at a time, and very few of these survive in nature. It would not be hard to belive that we would very eaisly impact a mantid population, simply by living in the same area, destroying thier oths and killing or poisning preg females. with all develpment and pollution in areas like texas, i imagine there are just less native manti anyways. i know i rarley see any in my area, (austin). But its all a moot point as most of texas is made up of hard asses and like he says its all been bought and sold. No need to risk getting in trouble or going to jail  , but i do think that this and many other species are probly being held back due to the tampering of man. One day it will all be concrete anyways :lol: jk (hopefully).


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## captainmerkin

> bah! i say Bah! How do you know that the only thing stopping them from spreading up further is not due to natural ecosystems damaged by mankind? Most manti reproduce and spew out hundreds of nymps at a time, and very few of these survive in nature. It would not be hard to belive that we would very eaisly impact a mantid population, simply by living in the same area, destroying thier oths and killing or poisning preg females. with all develpment and pollution in areas like texas, i imagine there are just less native manti anyways. i know i rarley see any in my area, (austin). But its all a moot point as most of texas is made up of hard asses and like he says its all been bought and sold. No need to risk getting in trouble or going to jail  , but i do think that this and many other species are probly being held back due to the tampering of man. One day it will all be concrete anyways :lol: jk (hopefully).


could you 100% gurantee that what you release is completely desease free?

Could you also guarantee that this will have no impact whatsoever on the local habitats?

I really do not think that you could even partially begin to gurantee these things, and I would also hazard a guess that you are not a parthologist able to assess you insects for desease be it dormant or active.

Personally I would like to think that anyone with an interest in these kind of animals would have a degree of respect for their environment and the common sense to not go throwing something into it that was not already there... but then again people are people and will to the end of humanity prove very very good at making very bad descisions based on their own instincts.

Admittedly I would love to see mantis in the UK living in the wild, but right now that is just not going to happen until nature sees fit... or some moron sets some free somewhere daft thinking its cool or good for the environment or for the animals.

Just stick to breeding your critters, trading your critters and having fun with them (they really are awesome things), but dont get delusions of grandure and go setting them free on a whim


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