# INBREEDING



## idolomantis (Jan 27, 2008)

INBREEDING is dangerous and i now see the zoo gived me giant asians that are inbreeded for atleast 60 years.

if you read al my health problem topics you,ll see it is al inbrreding. thats why i have more problems in one moths then you all have...

inbreeding makes mantids very weak and smaller. The best way to make sure this dont gonna happen is:

EACH TWO GENERATIONS BUY AN OOTH OR MALE OR FEMALE FROM AN OTHER PERSON OR EVERYTHING GOES WRONG!!!!

AND: i see now that the zoo where i get them from, (artis) will dont have any mantids the comming 10 years becouse they al die,

now may male who eats 10 cricks sinse being adult stopped whit eating becouse of the inbreeding.

its not only this spieces but this count for every insect(and reptiles) that can keeping in terraria.

to everyone who is a beginer whit any insects,

read this warning and use it, or else it gives you only pain and stress.

my best and strongest female died becouse the local hideous cat &lt;_&lt; 

may this be a warning to you al.

and beginners at this area, i hope you learn from this topic


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## Andrew (Jan 27, 2008)

So you have been keeping this single bloodline of giant asians for 60 years?


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## idolomantis (Jan 27, 2008)

Andrew said:


> So you have been keeping this single bloodline of giant asians for 60 years?


no..... the zooo did where i got them from


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## obregon562 (Jan 27, 2008)

This doesn't sound plossible. For mantids to 'inbreed' you would have to have a female lay an ooth, survive up until the point the babies from the ooth mature, mate with her son, and then lay the resulting ooth!

I just dont think this is your problem idolo. it is kind of a reach.


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## Giosan (Jan 27, 2008)

obregon562 said:


> This doesn't sound plossible. For mantids to 'inbreed' you would have to have a female lay an ooth, survive up until the point the babies from the ooth mature, mate with her son, and then lay the resulting ooth! I just dont think this is your problem idolo. it is kind of a reach.


I think you're wrong there, the mom doesn't have to mate with her son, it's about that her children mate and get babies again - which means the blood/dna 'n stuff will still be the same. That's what inbreeding means. All the same genes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding


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## Moosashi (Jan 27, 2008)

is it ok to do that one time cuz I only have one carolina ooth that hatched and I'm gonna raise up some males and females to mate eventually. Will their progeny be messed up?


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## obregon562 (Jan 27, 2008)

Giosan said:


> I think you're wrong there, the mom doesn't have to mate with her son, it's about that her children mate and get babies again - which means the blood/dna 'n stuff will still be the same. That's what inbreeding means. All the same genes.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding


Upps! i messed up there. But is still dont think it would be that big a deal...i mean, i cant say i've had experience with 120+ generations, but mnay people start bloodlines from one ooth...

I dunno...it just shouldn't affect the problems you've had, like bad sheds, etc...

Thats humidities' fault, not inbreeding's.


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## Giosan (Jan 27, 2008)

obregon562 said:


> Upps! i messed up there. But is still dont think it would be that big a deal...i mean, i cant say i've had experience with 120+ generations, but mnay people start bloodlines from one ooth...I dunno...it just shouldn't affect the problems you've had, like bad sheds, etc...
> 
> Thats humidities' fault, not inbreeding's.


Well, if it's true that the zoo kept the same generation for 60 years, stuff like this might happen. Can't know for sure of course  

I do know some phasmids are sensitive for inbreeding and new nymphs will become weak. Need to bring some new males every now and then.


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## idolomantis (Jan 27, 2008)

yes and that is waht i,m going to do now


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## Moosashi (Jan 27, 2008)

might as well keep them in something that promotes humidity when they're likely to moult too as the majority of people seem to think that might be one of the main problems.


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## Birdfly (Jan 28, 2008)

Hi, I think the fact that the zoo kept and bred These _H membranacea_ for 60 years is proof that inbreeding is not a problem, at least not for _H membranacea_ as the problems normally associated with inbreeding should have halted the culture 55 years or so earlier


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## Mantida (Jan 28, 2008)

I don't think inbreeding has anything to do with what happened to those mantids.


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## idolomantis (Jan 28, 2008)

Mantida said:


> I don't think inbreeding has anything to do with what happened to those mantids.


oh but i never hear you al about those problems you see.

and inbreeding isnt a problem when they are like hatling-l4 but after that, the trouble begins...

i,m sure it IS inbreeding. What else could it be? the local poltergeist???

noo my tanks are al 40-50 cm high i only let them in my plants at the day and when they are going to moult, i even dont let then out of there tanks.

tell me what you think it is.


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## idolomantis (Jan 28, 2008)

Birdfly said:


> Hi, I think the fact that the zoo kept and bred These _H membranacea_ for 60 years is proof that inbreeding is not a problem, at least not for _H membranacea_ as the problems normally associated with inbreeding should have halted the culture 55 years or so earlier


look i saw many times that when a new ooth hatches there, only 5 make it to adulthood. 150-250 nymphs- 5 survive? no way that this happens to not inbreeded mantids


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## idolomantis (Jan 28, 2008)

rest in peace mantis number four


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## ismart (Jan 28, 2008)

Idolo why not try to get a new bloodline to mix up the gene pool if you think it's inbreeding? If it is inbreeding then i'm sure you will notice a difference with a new bloodline in the same kept conditions.

Wow 60 years of inbreeding, and mantises are still becoming adults and ooths are still hatching. That is quite impressive that this bloodline of mantids still exits. Maybe now people won't be so worried about inbreeding a generation or two.


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## idolomantis (Jan 28, 2008)

ismart said:


> Idolo why not try to get a new bloodline to mix up the gene pool if you think it's inbreeding? If it is inbreeding then i'm sure you will notice a difference with a new bloodline in the same kept conditions.Wow 60 years of inbreeding, and mantises are still becoming adults and ooths are still hatching. That is quite impressive that this bloodline of mantids still exits. Maybe now people won't be so worried about inbreeding a generation or two.


yes i,m gonna buy 2 asian ooths again. 1 from spain and one from america


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## joossa (Jan 28, 2008)

idolomantis said:


> i,m sure it IS inbreeding. What else could it be? the local poltergeist???


You cannot conclude this without having collected specific data that is both general (qualitative) and very specific (down to genetic testing).

While introducing a new individual into a breeding line that has been and is composed of only related individuals does increase the offspring's genetic diversity and is generally recommended when breeding anything, in mantids diversity is very minimal. Inbreeding does increase the chances of offspring resulting in a homozygous recessive genotype that can make them more susceptible to certain diseases, BUT since there has not been extensive studies on mantid genetics/diseases you cannot blame inbreeding as the cause of your mantids illnesses or "bad happenings". To do so is simply fallacious.


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## idolomantis (Jan 28, 2008)

joossa said:


> You cannot conclude this without having collected specific data that is both general (qualitative) and very specific (down to genetic testing).While introducing a new individual into a breeding line that has been and is composed of only related individuals does increase the offspring's genetic diversity and is generally recommended when breeding anything, in mantids diversity is very minimal. Inbreeding does increase the chances of offspring resulting in a homozygous recessive genotype that can make them more susceptible to certain diseases, BUT since there has not been extensive studies on mantid genetics/diseases you cannot blame inbreeding as the cause of your mantids illnesses or "bad happenings". To do so is simply fallacious.


i KNOW THAT THAT ZOO IS INBREEDING BECOESE I HAVE A HALF JOB THERE AT THE PHASMIDS AND MANTIDS!!!!!!

OMFG HOW DO I MAKE YOU GUYS SURE THAT INBREDING MAKES TROUBLE :angry: :angry: :angry: 

ANYONE STAND ME BY


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## Rob Byatt (Jan 28, 2008)

idolomantis said:


> i,m sure it IS inbreeding. What else could it be? the local poltergeist???..........tell me what you think it is.


So next time I fail with a species or 80% of my nymphs die between 1st instar and adulthood I'll blame inbreeding, not human error  

How much experience do you have with mantid husbandry ? Could it not be your fault that they are dying ?

Rob.


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## Christian (Jan 28, 2008)

> ANYONE STAND ME BY


No. :lol: 

First of all, I don't believe that any mantid was bred by a zoo for 60 years. Some phasmids indeed were, so maybe someone confounded it. Secondly, if we consider that that zoo indeed bred this species for a rather long time, inbreeding may not be the problem. It's rather a form of selection: they selected for their particular conditions. Every breeder selects, as he/she starts a culture, for his own conditions. The losses are high in the first generations (with the losses being as higher as the conditions differ from the optimum), then cease. You have adapted your stock to your conditions. Of course, every selection involves some loss of genetic diversity, but *this does not automatically mean inbreeding*! Now, when you give specimens from your stock away, they first have to adapt to the new conditions. This, again, means selection, so the new owner may suffer high losses first. Again, the rule is: the more the conditions differ from the optimum, the higher the losses. So, first of all, try to enhance your temperature, optimize the humidity and maybe the food, and *then*, if after a few generations it still goes wrong, then you may have suffered such a gene loss across the way that you can blame inbreeding to be responsible. Not now. And, by the way, by shouting to the community your problem is not solved any way!


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## idolomantis (Jan 28, 2008)

..... if this is al i can get i quit whit this toppic T~T

damn :,(

mods delete this topic cuz nobody,s listning


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## idolomantis (Jan 28, 2008)

Rob Byatt said:


> No, you are not listening ! Do you know anything about insect genetics or are you just assuming they share the same problems as with mammals ?


i know MUCH about insects and i am listning

you dont know how it feelss.

finaly have mantids and they al die

they dont share that whit mammals

mods delete this topic fast

no1 is understanding me..

nvm i dont comment anymore becouse i only get some bad comments

you there how to make some1 angry


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## Christian (Jan 28, 2008)

:blink: 



> you dont know how* tit* feelss.


What?

This post can really be closed as you don't deserve any help whatsoever!


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## idolomantis (Jan 28, 2008)

Christian said:


> :blink: What?
> 
> This post can really be closed as you don't deserve any help whatsoever!


it feels sorry


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## idolomantis (Jan 28, 2008)

i dont wanted help i just want to warn.

but that be accepted

INBREEDING IS A PROBLEM AND EVERY LIVING CREATURE ON THIS PLANET CAN BE WEAKEND BY IT!!!!!!

LAST WARN

a whatever. better expieriense by yourself, BUT DONT YOU AL DINT GET WARNED!!!!

mods delete this topic i just dont wanted to help so what happens to me dont happen to you guys.

now i feel dissapointed and unaccepted so i dont comment on anything anymore only on PM,s


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## Orin (Jan 28, 2008)

The term inbreeding is often used as an excuse for poor or misunderstood husbandry, you are right that you might as well blame a polterqeist or entomophagus fungus or the Terminal Tower. It's not that the term has no meaning but it is not the problem. When few people could keep mantids for one or two generations an 'inbreeding' myth was generated as a possible excuse. In recent years as more hobbyists have become proficient at breeding mantids it has become obvious that the 'inbreeding myth' is just that.


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## Mantida (Jan 28, 2008)

Ah well Idolo, seems like the majority of us disagree. BUT, do not keep thinking about inbreeding as the problems for your mantid deaths. Raise the ooths you are ordering, and start over.

And also, mantids who have high hatch rates, for example in your post 150-120 mantids, it is VERY common for only 5 to survive to adulthood. That is why many hatch out in the first place.

Anyway, good luck with the ooths you are recieving!


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## Sparky (Jan 28, 2008)

Well let me just avoid the inbreeding part so no one gets mad, but yeah... Ooths that are thick and bulky needs more protection because its in a dangerous environment, thus hatching more nymphs. 13 nymphs in a dangerous environment won't last that long. Though 100-200 nymphs that hatch out in a dangerous environment will have a better chance of 5 - 8 maybe even 1 surviving.

Causes to death can be anything from unknown bacteria/virus infection, predators, anything that can harm mantids that we don't know of.

Although mantids that come from an easy going environment, lays small, skinny, slender ooths. Not saying that they DON'T need protection because camouflage is on their side. For example gambian ooths hatch only about 6-12 somtimes even 1 or 2 mantids,but the majority of them survive.

Most mantids in the wild probably will mate with siblings anyway and it's probably going around for a couple hundred years.


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## sk8erkho (Jan 28, 2008)

Idolo, It seems the members here are more trying to help you understand that You have the ability to control the type of environment your mantids are exposed to. By changing the current set of variables which seem to be responsible for your mantids low mortality rates, you may be more at liberty to increase the survival rate of those little guys. It is very disappointing to lose large numbers of mantids for what seems to be, no apparent reason. My first Chinese left us with six ooths. Each ooth produced approximately 100-150 nymphs (maybe more, except the last one) and when it was all over I would only have maybe a third, if that, of mantids survive to maybe L-3. Of course they fell to bad molts and cannibalism and such. :angry: *Then*, the others which did not die as nymphs, even after making one change or so, still, a few would have bad molts and the others survived to adulthood which was maybe 20-25. I even had some really weird stuff happen as with one of my Orchids, which was in what I thought was perfect condition. -_- There was nothing out of the ordinary in play the night she began to shake violently and then suddenly just dropped dead in her tank. Imagine the horror.  I could not understand why they would all fall off like that. :blink: I began changing the humidity, temp, food etc as suggested in the forum threads and now I have far more mantids living well into adulthood and even dying of old age.  Again, for me, it took research and willingness to try new and different things. Heck, I even leave my Giant Asians out in the open hanging off my window vines! They even molted successfully, twice without putting them back into their tanks where I maintain specific temps and humidity for molting!!! :wacko: Also, I realized I am in this mantid thing for the long haul so I needed to learn as much as I could. I am finally at the point where I am trying my hand at my first breeding endeavour.  So, don't give up just because you are at odds with the members. They're not beating up on you and in this hobby you _Have_ to keep an open mind just as with anything else. When all else fails try something new!! Keep your chin up and a little advice can go a long, long way!!!!  :lol:


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## randyardvark (Jan 30, 2008)

idolomantis said:


> , only 5 make it to adulthood. 150-250 nymphs- 5 survive? no way that this happens to not inbreeded mantids


mate it happens all the time, can be lack of diapause in some sp. insufficiant or tainted food stuffs, aresols and other chemicals, being left in direct sunlight, lethal genes, a cockup in general husbandry, ive had this a few times with ooths (always with the european's)

try again, it probably has very little to do with inbreeding, but admittedly it could be....what you cant do is blame it on that for sure...thats just silly, unless you can prove it of course, invertebrates are prone to fungal diseases and often it is to late by the time any obvious signs are recognised, pronbably just a royal ****up

we all do them, it happens all the time its nothing to be ashamed of, but admittedly you should encourage new blood in the zoo stocks, its just common practice  

and dude dont take this as a personal vendetta we are advising, not just you, but other begginers that maybe reading the board, if your going to have a pissy when someone corrects you and/or critise's your point then id advise you never to be an artist/politician/florist/animal keeper/milkman/accountant....ect ect

critism is the easiest way to learn if you listen  

Chin Up


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## critterguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Also, what will buying mantids from another source do? Unless their have been multiple importations chacnesare all mantids in the hobby are very closely related in any case.


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## idolomantis (Feb 3, 2008)

pffffff never mind guysi know what it can do, saw whit my own eyes.

so dont comment anymore.

&lt;_&lt;


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## obregon562 (Feb 3, 2008)

Do you understand we are trying to help?

Once you prove beyond a doubt it is inbreeding, you have no right to be so mad and upset.

Trust me, i know it sucks to lose mantids that you have grow to like. I killed my fair share. Just yesterday one of my subadult Gambians mismoulted...it suck, as it was my only male, but you dont here me saying "inbreeding". I know it was my fault-i forgot to mist them for a few days.

We're just trying to help is all im saying.


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## Mantida (Feb 3, 2008)

idolomantis said:


> pffffff never mind guysi know what it can do, saw whit my own eyes.so dont comment anymore.
> 
> &lt;_&lt;


Hun, if you don't listen to criticism once in a while and think you are always right when the majority tell you you're wrong, you aren't going to survive when you grow up.

It wasn't inbreeding.


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## Christian (Feb 3, 2008)

Well, he is young and has no clue! We should be patient. :lol:


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## idolomantis (Feb 3, 2008)

bye i leave this forum now forever i only react on pms

thanks for being nice to me


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## macro junkie (Feb 3, 2008)

Christian said:


> Well, he is young and has no clue! We should be patient. :lol:


iv been told its a she now a he.?


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## Christian (Feb 3, 2008)

> iv been told its a she


 Ooops...


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## macro junkie (Feb 3, 2008)

who knows..shame somones leaving this forum tho..


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## Christian (Feb 3, 2008)

Maybe. One may ask though if she would persist in any other forum with this choleric behavior... :blink:


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## Mantida (Feb 3, 2008)

Leaving a forum because people disagree with ya... can't really comment on that.

But, whatever.  

Wish you luck on future mantids.


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## obregon562 (Feb 3, 2008)

*gasp* You mean people won't always think/act/look like me? Are you serious! OMG SOMEONE HIDE ME!!!!


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## obregon562 (Feb 3, 2008)

obregon562 said:


> *gasp* You mean people won't always think/act/look like me? Are you serious! OMG SOMEONE HIDE ME!!!!
> 
> It is a shame though...hopefully _she'll_ come back...maybe...


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## Ian (Feb 4, 2008)

Come on guys, lets lighten up a little.

I know Rod wasn't really listening, but we don't want a member of the forum to leave due to infeeling.

Let's try and put this thread behind us, and move on.

Now lets raise glass to everyone getting on.







Cheers guys.


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