# Mantis Cross Breeding ver.1.0



## Ghozt (Jan 24, 2011)

Orchid Male and Violin Female mated


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## Rick (Jan 24, 2011)

That won't work. The topic has been discussed before.


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## hibiscusmile (Jan 24, 2011)

Pity! :blink:


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## warpdrive (Jan 24, 2011)

I still want to see pics, get them back together...they clarly like each other.  

Harry


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## ismart (Jan 24, 2011)

Ghozt said:


> Orchid Male and Violin Female mated


 :lol: Awesome! That must look so funny! :lol:


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## PeterF (Jan 24, 2011)

Did she eat him after?


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## massaman (Jan 24, 2011)

wont produce a ooth and if it does it will be infertile and if it even does hatch the nymphs will all die and will be all for nothing!


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## [email protected] (Jan 24, 2011)

This is an interesteding topic. Most of the time this stuff doesn't work but there can be exceptions, at least in the reptile world. There have been snakes and turtles (that I know of) of different spcies even different genus to produce offspring.


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## PragmaticHominid (Jan 24, 2011)

Why? :blink:


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## more_rayne (Jan 24, 2011)

Why? Why not, I'd love to see some crazy looking hybrids.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 24, 2011)

more_rayne said:


> Why? Why not, I'd love to see some crazy looking hybrids.


Yep, there's nothing like a freak show to pull in the rubes!  

Once again. If someone were to produce viable crosses that could interbreed in the F1 generation, I'm sure that there would be plenty of folks who would be happy to buy them and to breed them back to their own stock, since, obviously, they don't care about pure strains. Most captive stocks come from a limited number of lines, and this could contaminate the genome of a complete captive species. We are all familiar with "Rhombodera sp.", which may be a victim of crossbreeding; what would you call the new crosses, G.sp.?

Fortunately, though, it ain't gonna happen.


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## Ghozt (Jan 25, 2011)

awww, well, too bad,....


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## Ghozt (Jan 25, 2011)

what if it dose work Rick ? Wanna buy some cross breeds.... lolool


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## Ghozt (Jan 25, 2011)

oh, and the male is safe, pilled the male off after the violin was done with the moth...


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 25, 2011)

So Ghozt. Let's see where you stand.

If your female produced a viable ooth (though G_d knows the odds against that) whose offspring were able to mate successfully with each other:

Do you you believe me when I say that they could contaminate the whole line of what they resemble most (i.e. violin or orchid mantids), if they were allowed to cross breed again?

If not, why not?

If so, would you sell them anyway, knowing that you were doing a serious disservice to the hobby, or,

Do you think that everyone who likes freaks would be honorable and careful not to do what you have already done, attempt to cross breed them again?

You started this thread, so I think that it is fair to ask you where you stand on the issue.


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## kitkat39 (Jan 26, 2011)

TAKE PICTURES! =)


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## batsofchaos (Jan 26, 2011)

I think ghozt is more interested in having a violorchid, or orchilin mantis, or whatever, than contaminating culture. While I seriously doubt anything will come of this mating, but even if there was viable offspring, I'm not sure I follow your logic, Phil. How could the little mutants contaminate the culture, unless they were maliciously sold as something they're not?


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 26, 2011)

A fair question, I guess, but why do you think that no one would buy the crosses and try to establish a strain? He could easily sell them, despite the danger, without any misrepresentation, malicious or otherwise. Has it ever been done? Yep. At an American Cichlid Association Convention in the seventies, a guy was selling a cross between two African cichlids of the same genus, though he had not yet successfully crossed the siblings of the F1 generation. A couple of us tried to persuade him to withdraw them from sale and he angrily refused, saying that he had succeeded in doing something that we couldn't, we were just jealous, and he was clearly selling them as cross breeds. It did not occur to him, or he refused to acknowledge, that he had no control over what his customers did with the freaks, including trying to breed them back to one of the original species. Fortunately, someone with more influence than mine persuaded the floor manager of sales to ban further sales, and I later heard that, predictably, the fish were sterile.

I am not asking Ghozt what he will do with the progeny, because there won't be any, or they will be sterile, but I wanted to know how he regards the whole idea of introducing such half breeds into the hobby, since he has already taken the first step in that direction.

No fight here, just an exchange of opinions.


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## Ghozt (Jan 26, 2011)

You know Phil, I thought about that. I just wanna see it happen, not destroy the breeds like ppl have done DOGS...

Like a Pit Bull and a Shitsu became a BullSh_t. So, no, I prolly wouldnt sell them... cuz if i did, the next person would to... and so on.

Also, if it where possible, we would have crazy cool breeds by now.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 26, 2011)

Oh, good. That's what I guessed. And you should know that the following famous account of how the Great Mantis Goddess (BbHN) destroyed some cross breeders, does not, therefor, apply to you:

Like the leaves of the forest when summer is green,

The evil cross breeders at sunset were seen:

Like the leaves of the forest when autumn hath blown,

Those muckers by morning lay withered and strown.

For the Mantis of Death spread Her wings on the blast,

And breathed in the face of the fiends as She passed:

And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,

And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!

That's another reason why it dosen't happen much!


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## batsofchaos (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm going to just have to disagree on this as being a negative at all, because ultimately it's a straw man argument. It's not something that is possible, and if it were possible it wouldn't matter in any way, shape, or form. These insects can't crossbreed so ultimately it's a moot point. If they could, and produced mules, it's also a moot point since the sterile offspring would just die as did the fish in your example. Even if the guy sold a bunch of those fish, being infertile they would have absolutely no affect on the hobby besides some disappointed buyers without any newborn fish. But it would also be a moot point if they produced viable offspring that could continue to have viable offspring, because ultimately this has no negative repercussions on anything.

Because, ultimately, we're pet owners. A successful half-breed between two species of mantis doesn't do any harm at all. For an example, we could use dogs, which can be separated into distinct and recognized 'breeds' that can all viably mate with each other. These breeds are recognized and governed by the kennel club, but dog owners can choose to follow or ignore the whole breed issue. And frankly some people just want a labradoodle. There's nothing wrong with having a mutt. You just have a dog without a breed that's recognized by the kennel club. It has no impact on the kennel club, nor does it have any impact on 'nature.'

It might seem reasonable to want to keep the cultures pure, for what could be considered scientific purposes, but it's an illusion. If two praying mantis species can be bred, and the offspring produced was completely viable with other mixes or either of the original species, then it really doesn't affect anything at all unless you wanted a 'breed standard' mantis and got a mutt. A violin mantis that is 97% _G. gongylodes_ and 3% _H. coronatus_ is only detrimental if you're looking for approval from the kennel club, because (at least using the givens of this argument) it doesn't impact you from raising and breeding a pet.

Because, let's face it, basically no one here is running a scientific culture. If they were, the health and longevity of a species in the hobby at large has practically no impact on them. They're running goal-oriented experiments on a group of genetically similar insects that will probably be destroyed once the experiment has run its course. We may pride ourselves in being interested in the science of our hobby, but keeping these insects, breeding them, and doing it all over again and/or selling the offspring is not science. It's pet ownership. And if we could breed albino-phase mantises like they do with snakes, we would.


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## Rick (Jan 26, 2011)

Ghozt said:


> what if it dose work Rick ? Wanna buy some cross breeds.... lolool


Take a genetics class and you will see why it won't work.


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## more_rayne (Jan 26, 2011)

There are all sorts of hybrid plants and animals created by man and mother nature. The more variety, the better. I don't see these hybrids ruining the pure species. If mother nature is allowed to make hybrids, we should also be able to.


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## [email protected] (Jan 26, 2011)

FYI, dogs don't count in this conversation because they are ALL THE SAME BREED. All of the different breeds you see are from selective breeding, all dogs are the same species.


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## GreenOasis (Jan 26, 2011)

It's all tigons &amp; ligers to me! :blink: 

Coyote-wolves, polar/grizzlies, various snake "intergrades"...all incidents in nature.

Mules, tigons, ligers, snake &amp; bird hybrids, rodents, fish...all introductions of man.

If God &amp; nature makes it POSSIBLE, I see no harm, except in the man who tries to pass them off as pure to someone whom it matters to. Not unlike the car salesman who tells you, "No, a Mercury Tracer is vastly superior to a Ford Escort!" (They are the same car underneath the exterior!)

I think those who are against the hybrid idea are more worried about being duped themselves than any detriment to the hobby. "Purists" have their right to feel it's wrong. It's up to those who decide to try it to be moral &amp; upright and NOT try to pass them off as anything other than what they are. The one thing I hate about the hybrid culture of snakes is when you come across a really NEAT-looking hybrid, but the careless breeder can't even tell you WHAT they crossed to get it. That's the kind of stuff to be wary of.

Phil, I understand your point...there are way too many careless breeders out there, but I don't agree that someone should've been banned from selling his progeny. Leave it to the consumer to decide if that is what they want! (That is part of the reason I love this country...the freedom!)  

I also agree with Bats. Hybridizing does no harm to the hobby, anymore than hybrid garden seeds do to the gardening hobby. (Unless you're Monsanto! NO GMOs, please!) No one here has the ability to gene-splice (that I am aware of), so I also think it's a moot point.

That being said, I don't have any hybrids in my collection of mantids (that I am aware of, see previous statement about the car salesman.) I don't plan to hybridize any mantids, and if there WERE an accidental mating between species in my collection and viable nymphs were produced, I would not be offering them for sale either! That is just my little disclaimer in case anyone thinks that I might be so careless because I support hybridization.


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## GreenOasis (Jan 26, 2011)

Leeann said:


> FYI, dogs don't count in this conversation because they are ALL THE SAME BREED. All of the different breeds you see are from selective breeding, all dogs are the same species.


EXACTLY! (See? There are some educated folks out there who make great informed consumers!) :smarty:


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## [email protected] (Jan 26, 2011)

Like I said before it has been done all sorts of times in the reptile world. Most of the offspring will be sterile but there are strange things that DO happen.

Examples:

http://crotalusco.com/projects/hybrids/

http://www.mesozoicreptiles.com/photogallery.html

Here is a carpet python x ball python







http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/38/l_3c3b8fa15fba446a85190a87b3d6b231.jpg

ball python x burmese python






Gaboon viper x rhino viper






Blandings turtle x n.a. wood turtle






red eared slider x map turtle (different genus!)






I know of more but those are the only documented ones I could fine right now.


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## Rick (Jan 26, 2011)

The issue Green is not the effect on the hobby, but instead the effect on the wild populations if these hybrids were to escape. I recommend anyone interested in this topic to take a genetics course.

Here is a good past discussion on the topic:

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=20047&amp;st=0&amp;p=148358&amp;hl=cross&amp;fromsearch=1entry148358


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## GreenOasis (Jan 26, 2011)

Granted Rick, but I thought we were talking about the hobby, not releasing said creatures. Any responsible person in the hobby knows that you do NOT release exotic mantids outside of their native habitat, double that statement for hybrid mantids. (Just like you DON'T ever release hybrid snakes, etc.)

The type of wreckless people who WOULD are the same type that would hybridize without thought and then sell later without disclosure.

I'm saying that, in my opinion, it is not the hybridizing that is at fault, but those careless people whom we fear will create the hybrids (and, as you pointed out, possibly be so thoughtless as to allow release or escape).


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 26, 2011)

GreenOasis said:


> It's all tigons &amp; ligers to me! :blink:
> 
> Coyote-wolves, polar/grizzlies, various snake "intergrades"...all incidents in nature.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm impressed that we are all being so civil on this thread! Maybe it's because, unlike feeding fluffy kittens to mantids, it is of little practical significance. The reason that hybridizing has done no harm to the hobby, if that is true, is that it has not yet been able to do so, though the possibility of two different species, both called "Giant Asian Shields" have interbred has given me pause. While I basically agrtee with Rick on this (thanks for digging up that recent post with Tier's and Yen's actual examples, BTW) except that I think that escaped tropical mantids, which comprise the bulk of the hobby in the US, aren't going to survive, while the typically sicky hybrids in captivity could be pampered until breeding age. Again, F2 fertility is rare indeed (the frequently cited ligers and tigrons never produce offspring, and a U.S. zoo was recently fined heavily for allowing such a cross to occur. Good).

But what is this American Freedom and long live capitalism thing, Carey?  

If I understand you, vendors should be able to sell what they like as part of their American Heritage, so long as they are not GMOs whose genetic history is painstakingly documented. Should they not be allowed to sell their wares on the open market? Think of all the struggling professional entomologists that you would be putting out of work with your Draconian decision!

In fact, the freedom to sell and the concept of "caveat emptor" (buyer beware) are limited. It is no longer possible, for example for the American Army to sell contaminated blankets to Indians, and Consumer Reports carries examples every month of harmful goods -- cribs that can catch fire or suffocate babies are examples particularly close to my heart -- whose sales have been banned by the government. So no, you can't just sell anything and The ACA was well within its rights to ban the sale of hybrid fish on its premesis. Had they allowed it, as I pointed out at the time, they would have been tacitly approving the sale.

I think that one of the reasons why people of good will disagree on this subject here is because of the unfortunate analogy with reptiles. Snakes. in particular, have not fully gotten their genetic act togother and still seem to be working out what color schemes are best suited to their survival, a loosness of genetic constraints that allows beeders to produce some amazing and beautiful color variations that probably wouldn't last long in practice (and SF's "genetic drift" would apply here as well. "Ring species", that can breed with the next variant in the ring, while the two variants at either end of the ring cannot, are found in a number of vertebrate orders, but the salamander, Ensatina escholtzii, is remarkable for having formed a ring in a small, area in Califonia, bounded by the Pacific and the Rockies..

I see that you praised Leeann's coment that "FYI, dogs don't count in this conversation because they are ALL THE SAME BREED", but of course they are not (sorry, Leeann!); they are different breeds of the same species. Rick's point about taking a course in genetics to better understand such issues is well made, but not everyone can trot off to school to rake a course. I have just started tutoring my 14 yr old GD, Amanda on genetics as part of her freshman biology course, so it shouldn't be out of reach of anyone who graduated from 8th grade. Here is the book: _Biology: Concepts and Connections_, by Neil A. Campbell, _et al ,_ published by Pearson education as Benjamin Cummings . I think that Amanda is using the 7th edition, but you can get the 5th edition, used, quite cheaply from Amazon, and it is almost identical. It will give you the basics of genetics, including the lovely homeobox genes that are at the beginning of the cascade that gives us wingless fruitflies, and lots of other Good Stuff!


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## MantidLord (Jan 26, 2011)

I took a Genetics course (high school) in the 11th grade, and can account for what Rick and Phil are saying in regards to mantis cross-breeding. However, as far as *if* it were possible and selling it to other breeders, I wouldn't for the possibility of it escaping (whether purposeful or accidental) and it having a detrimental effect on nature. Recall the infamous killer bees (cross bred between African bees and European bees) that are still spreading north and causing a decline in naturalized bee populations :angry: . I think that the assumption of the tropical mantids not surviving in the states (or any other area they aren't native to) is just that... an assumption. After taking a genetics class, I know that it is very possible for some specimens to survive in an environment that would otherwise see their demise. After surviving and successfully reproducing, they could evolve under these conditions and develop resistances to the very environment that would kill them (heat resistance, cold resistance, humidity changes, breeding periods, etc). This is especially true in insects that have a relatively short life span and produce many offspring (I guess mantids could apply here, although compared to other insects such as Drosophila, they aren't the typical case  ). My point is, if a sufficient amount of exotic mantids were to be released into the wild, you could rest assure that there is a probability that even a small population of that species may survive to spawn a second generation.

Now, let's say for instance that two species of mantids were cross-bred and able to reproduce, I assume that it would take the work of geneticists and/or taxonomists to determine whether or not this "hybrid" is actually a sub-species, able to interbreed with other sub-species and their "parent" species (differing in DNA sequences with other sub-species), or a new species that can only reproduce with others of its kind (having a different genetic makeup preventing interbreeding with other species). Of course, both of these are unlikely, as the F1 generation of a species (recall that species either have multiple sub species or none at all) would most likely be sterile (e.g., ligers). But for the sake of argument, let's say that a sub species (or maybe even a new species) were formed from naturalized mantids (for instance, Tenodera sinensis and angustipennis although no "hybrids" have been confirmed), I can only imagine what traits would be deemed "favorable" by mother nature and what would be lost either due to inheritance (dominant/recessive genes) or detrimental to survival (natural selection). It would also be interesting to note whether or not the hybrid could even survive in the environment or if it would thrive, replacing the pure breds.

Now as Phil said about dogs, they are different breeds of the same species. I don't think many people know the difference between breed and species (know that species are morphologically isolated from other species). However, these different breeds, if left to their own devices and mankind were to disappear (you should watch Life After People, a documentary about how the earth as we know it would change if man were to vanish) would undergo the stress of nature leading to the "unfit" breeds such as shitzus and poodles to either die off or interbreed with the "fit" breeds. This would ultimately lead to the formerly domestic canines reverting back to same or similar "breed" (resembling one another and passing on their traits uniformly). So in this instance, dogs may or may not contribute to the argument depending on whether or not the hybrids in question could interbreed with the pure breds. If not, it's a moot point.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing some cool, flashy mantis hybrid (as if people need a _hybrid_ to see a "flashy" mantis   ), however I also understand the genetic and overall ecological implications that come with a viable creation. If left to me, I would just keep it and take a bunch of pictures (forget selling it or releasing it). And if it's sterile it would just die in my care. If I find it to be fertile, I'd alert some scientific community and let them handle it  . That's the best course of action before selling something just "discovered". However my interest really isn't in the phenotype but the genotype. I would want to know how large the mantis could grow (okay maybe that is phenotype), it's temperament in feeding, breeding, etc, and other factors that are actually the cornerstone of the survival of these insects. Oh and Phil, female ligers and tigrons are fertile, but they can only reproduce with either lions or tigers (not the male hybrids). I think you may have meant that, but I'm just clarifying  . Anyway, all of this is really interesting, and please correct me if I'm wrong on anything I said. I'm also glad to see this thread progressing with intelligent thought (rather than one side screaming at the other that it's "wrong" and an abomination) without giving any insight or reasoning.


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## batsofchaos (Jan 26, 2011)

Anyone quick to point out that dog breeds don't count missed my point. If we're working from a hypothetical point where two (or three or four or all) species of mantis could inter-breed perfectly, the situation would be identical to dog breeds. I am well aware all dogs are a single subspecies of _C. lupus familiaris_, this does not impact the content of my previous post.


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## MantidLord (Jan 26, 2011)

Well if all species of mantis could interbreed perfectly then there wouldn't be different species of mantis, they would just be different breeds (like dogs). But I guess I see what you're saying if they were all the same species. Then again, being the same species, I doubt there would be that much of an ecological impact.


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## batsofchaos (Jan 26, 2011)

Well that goes toward why the whole argument is moot. Ultimately, none of these hypothetical matings are physically possible so this whole discussion is based on musings of fancy. I mean, there is no ecological impact, or culture contamination, or anything, and if these things _were_ physically possible, the situations would be different and there _STILL_ wouldn't be any ecological impact, culture contamination, etc.


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## JoeCapricorn (Jan 26, 2011)

A Violin mantis is an Empusid. An Orchid mantis is a Hymenopodid.

Sure, a species could cross breed with another species in the same genus, and even different genuses but still in the same family, but what you are attempting is between two families.

Tigons and Ligers are both crosses between Panthera Leo and Panthera Tigris. Savannah Cats are a cross between domestic cats and Servals - different genus but same family.

Hybrids that would be possible in mantises would probably be in the same genus for the most part. A male Orchid won't fertilize your Violin, but a male Gongylus trachelophyllus might.

Hierodula is a large genus, many species found in the hobby and hybrids occur possibly in the wild.

Melanoplus, a genus of common grasshoppers, is also a big genus (hundreds of species) and there are photos of probable hybrids. http://bugguide.net/node/view/174079/bgpage This looks like a hybrid of Two-Stripe and Differential grasshoppers, as both species are similar in size and form and hybrids would be possible. A lot of Melanoplus are smaller, about an inch long, and many are very difficult to tell apart. I had M. ponderosa from Georgia, if I had male M. femurrubrum a hybridization of those two species would be possible.

But still, hybrids are possible among species within the same family and have similar size. A humanzee is more likely than a violorchid.


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 27, 2011)

Oy vey. Sometimes my brain refuses to turn over as it should. I wince a little when someone says that a cross wil produce a "really cool mantis" but I still didn't engage my brain until I read the opening sentence of the biology chapter that i am going over with Amanda (I try to keep one chapter ahead!): "One of biology's overarching themes -- the reltionship between structure and function -- is evident in the double helix." And of course, that is just softening us up for more detail on form and function, ten chapters down the line. This concept is usually applied to bodily structures, from the flagelum to the cerebrum, rather than to individual species, but the same principle applies. A species' form fits it for its function. Accidental (and they're all accidental) changes in the genes will only persist if they are expressed in a way that benefits the survival of that species. If they are not beneficial, then the newcomers will "revert to type" over a few generation, though there are variations such as blue or brown eyes and different blood groups in humans and, perhaps a different distribution of coxal spots in a mantis, that don't seem to make much difference either way.

Cross breeding, though, can force a dramatic change which, if the two species are already well adapted to their current environment, is most likely to be for ill. Many years ago, when the world was young and the buffalo still roamed the prairie, I participated in a study -- mostly census taking on my part -- on the prairie chicken in Illinois. Also in the vincinity were sharp tailed grouse,. At the time, the taxonomists had them in different genera, but now they are united in the Tympanuchus genus, which makes the following more easy to understand. Occasionally, there would be a mismating between the two species which yielded offspring. Far from being "really cool", though, the females failed to attract mates and the males could neither boom as well as a prairie chicken or dance as well as a sharp tailed grouse and so could not attract females. Good thing, too.

So if you are persuaded to try hybridization based on the color morphs of snakes, be aware that freaks usually look freakish rather than cool.


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## batsofchaos (Jan 27, 2011)

But if those chicken/grouse monsters were kept as pets and could be bred by owners, producing birds that, while not really going to work in the wild and would eventually re-normalize within thee chicken and grouse populations (or just die off), were attractive and desired by pet owners people would still breed them. I don't see how this would be detrimental to anything, either.


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## hibiscusmile (Jan 27, 2011)

Like the leaves of the forest when summer is green,

The evil cross breeders at sunset were seen:

Like the leaves of the forest when autumn hath blown,

Those muckers by morning lay withered and strown.

For the Mantis of Death spread Her wings on the blast,

And breathed in the face of the fiends as She passed:

And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,

And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!

That's another reason why it dosen't happen much!  

Phil did u make that? lovely


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## PhilinYuma (Jan 27, 2011)

hibiscusmile said:


> Like the leaves of the forest when summer is green,
> 
> The evil cross breeders at sunset were seen:
> 
> ...


Wow, Rebecca! You really do have a poet's eye if you can see the beauty of this poem through my "minor alterations"! The original was by the English poet and and favorite of the scandal rags, Lord Byron as "The Destruction of Sennacherib" in 1815, the same year as England's victory at Waterloo. here it is:

http://englishhistor...s/destruct.html

I must say that "The Mantis of Death" sounds pretty cool and was the reason that I chose the poem, but you could obviously see the brilliant imagery of the original and probably the meter or rhythm as well. The name for the rhythm, anapaestic, comes from Greek poetry and consists of two unstressed syllables and one stressed, as in the word "understand" or "interrupt". It is a sad reflection on our knowledge of modern poetry that the best known example of this meter is "The Night Before Christmas" :

Twas the _night_ before _Christ_mas when _all _through the _house,_ Not a_ creat_ure was s_tirir_ng, not _ev_e_n_ a _mouse._

So now you know why that verse begins with an odd word like "'Twas" (even odder when spelled "twas")!

We haven't gone off topic yet, have we?


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## MantidLord (Jan 27, 2011)

Phil, just in case you're referring to me stating that cross-breeds would look "flashy", then I must point out that it was nothing more than sarcasm.


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## PeterF (Jan 27, 2011)

I can't believe no one is appalled by Leeann's reptile cross breeds! Look at all those turtles with out legs!

Snake turtles!

What's wrong with all you monsters!

[/wink]


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## yen_saw (Jan 28, 2011)

Was there ever a successful insect hybrids of different genus?


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