# idolomantis



## nympho

sub-adult male is around 8 weeks and coming up to moulting into adult, ie stopped feeding and wing buds going darker. unfortunately its lost grip in the two hind legs, like my other one at L7. it probably wont be able to hang from the top to moult properly.

anyone any idea why this happens? it has not been disturbed or handled at all and was fine until a few days ago when i noticed it was clinging upside down from the side of the cage as usual but by its middle legs only. the hind claws just do not seem to work anymore, they stay in the relaxed open position and not a 'hooking' position when the mantis tries to grip on. the mantis tries to use them but they are usless. its so annoying after looking after it all this time for it to fail like this.


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## julian camilo

ive never kept idolomantis but from what i've read, the final moult into adulthood can be very problematic, even where no problems have occoured in the past. so yeh i dont know what the problem is, but its a common one as far as i know.


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## Christian

Hi.

Usually, this happens when a wrong clinging substrate/mesh is used. The tarsal claws may got stuck and break.

Regards,

Christian


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## Rick

Are the ends of the legs dry or missing?


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## nympho

hi, the legs may have been damaged but they look ok on the outside at least. there are no dry or dark segments to speak of; they don't appear dead, just non-functional.

but i did have a thought that could explain the issue. When being fed it would often attempt to grab a fly but miss and impale its front leg hooks in the wire mesh and get stuck. it would then sort of panic and try to pull back to try to free itself for about 10 seconds before 'realising' it had to move forward to free itself by releasing grip with the hind feet. maybe this hard pulling back had damaged the tendons that operate the rear claws, especially when the mantid is growing and somewhat delicate internally during the premoult stage.

Another thing i noticed is that even when freshy moulted (in later instars) its claws had little or no grip on twigs or other surfaces. they would just slide off. Also when held in the hand it could not grip the skin. the wire mesh seems the best material under the circumstances, giving good grip and apart from this problem mentioned they seem happy to cling onto it.

whatever the actual mechanism of damage i do agree the mesh is to blame in some way. i would use a different set up if i kept them again. maybe it can moult by holding on with the middle legs only. cheers


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## nympho

I think i might know what might cause this (just theoretical - I would need a microscope to see properly). The developing soft new hooks inside the skin may have been pulled forward inside the old skin so they are no longer lined up properly with the joint in the old hooks, hence the hook cannot move properly to grip. this could have been caused by the observation mentioned previously where the mantis grabs the mesh and puts strain on its feet. The new claws inside seem to work fine when the mantid sheds as i had this same issue before with one of the feet of this same mantis last time but it was resolved by it moulting, ie it regained the use of its hooks afterward. cheers


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## Johnald Chaffinch

i reckon they've probably only adapted to gripping just a few certain things in the wild

anyone got a photo of a mantis claw close up ?


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## Rib

If your mantis hasn't molted already, you can get round this by attaching its hinf legs to the roof of its enclosure yourself. It will still be able to molt as it would be the 'old skin' attached to the roof, not the new one. I had to do this recently with an orchid mantis which molted fine


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## nympho

thanks for the idea - i may have to do that, i certainly aint given up yet on the lil fella. at the moment its on a 1 inch thick strip of mesh, holding on by its one good foot.

its taking a heck of a long time to molt though; its 71 days so far! when the time eventually comes to moult (its keeping me guessing) i'm hoping it will hold on by wrapping its legs around the strip of mesh. as this is quite jagged on the edge it may 'snag' its non-gripping legs further up on the leg which may be enough to hold it in place.

if not its time to get the glue out but i'm thinking it will just struggle to free itself. if it chews its feet off i'll know who to blame :wink:


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## Rib

mine didn't struggle. if their close to their molt they usually grow weaker and more docile than usual. It sounds like your one hasnt much strength to put up much of a struggle. Its better than risking it only using one leg to molt from i would guess.


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## nympho

it hasnt moulted yet. thought it would last night but nothing. trouble with doing anything like you suggest is its impossible to know when its gonna moult - could be hours, days or weeks!

i'll post pics if it turns out good. I hope to get some of it expanding the wings (some chance)

i thought about putting small pieces of tape around its legs (with a bit jutting inwards so it can hook something onto the edge of the mesh). it tries to grip but its legs just keep slipping off.

is it worth it? :roll:


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## Rib

Well I know it wont turn out well with only one leg. When he/she molts they'll be wriggly and struggling and using their weight to come out their old skin and that one leg has to take it all.


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## nympho

yeah, one legs useless. one more idea ive had is tying very fine thread around its back leg and hanging it up by that. it may not even notice it. would have to be just before it moulted as it would go haywire and probably break its leg off. :lol:


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## nympho

update. it is now dead - it had lost grip on all claws so I tied cotton thread round each leg and hung it in the moulting possition. thought it might work for abit but it just never happened, probably cos it couldnt go through its premoult behavioral patterns or something. anyway it got weaker and weaker untill the inevitable... :evil:


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## 13ollox

sorry to hear that nympho ! you must be cheesed off ! it looked like a healthy mantis too !  i guess its just another learning experiance in the bag !

Neil


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## Rib

Sorry to hear about that, though I think if there is a next time it happens just tape the guys legs to the ground. That way he/she has some way of breaking out of the old skin


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## nympho

you mean not hanging from something? theres no way it would moult if it wasnt upside down. it did not even try to moult.

i dont think anything would have worked cos they hate disturbance of ANY kind. the cotton was the least intrusive method i could devise to help it hang like they do. it may work for less sensitive mants but not idolos


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