# Video: Mantis Eats Sushi!



## Peter Clausen

Our Water Dragon wasn't interested in these little guys, so I fed them to some mantises:

Mantis Eats Fish on Youtube

Not very natural, but probably pretty healthy for the mantis and they didn't go to waste!


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## Rick

I hope you didn't just open a can of worms! I personally have no problem with this, but it seems some do. Great vid.


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## Rob Byatt

A can of worms? No, not yet, but one day it will  

I can't believe a moderator is actually condoning feeding live vertebrates 'tail first' by showing it on the internet. What kind of message does this give people?

Maybe the Atlantic ocean has prevented problems occuring in the US, but in Europe this kind of behaviour is viewed very differently.

As I've said many times before, I am well aware that people do this kind of thing, but why post it on the net for everyone to see?

Does nobody care anymore?

Rob.


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## Christian

I second that. It's not good to post such things.


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## lynneowen1

Wow! I am at a loss for words! ...

Nope i found a few, cruel,offensive,unnecessary, i could go on...Admin you condone this? shame on you!


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## revmdn

Animals eat animals all the time. If you don't like it, go vegan. I liked the music, Peter.


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## Gurd

I'm sorry but I made my views known about this last time it came up

It wouldn't happen in the wild, unless it's a jesus mantis and parts the pond for it sushi

I could go on but I'll leave it there

bye


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## ismart

Things are deffinetly viewed very differently here in the states. I fish the atlantic ocean at least once a week. The things i see on party/charter boats fishing is pretty sick, and insane. :blink: If he were feeding a puppy or kitten to a mantis that might turn some heads, but fish, no. I'm still waiting for animal cops to break down some peoples doors for mistreating there fish! :lol:


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## Rick

ismart said:


> Things are deffinetly viewed very differently here in the states. I fish the atlantic ocean at least once a week. The things i see on party/charter boats fishing is pretty sick, and insane. :blink: If he were feeding a puppy or kitten to a mantis that might turn some heads, but fish, no. I'm still waiting for animal cops to break down some peoples doors for mistreating there fish! :lol:


I understand how others feel about this. At the same time I find it interesting nobody seems to have any issues when the pics show up of a mantis eating a hummingbird. There are fish sold as feeders just like there are mice sold as feeders. But I guess it is ok to feed a fish to another fish but not a mantis?

I know some of you want this thread removed. The site admin posted it and that is the reason I won't remove it personally. I will let him handle it.


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## Christian

> At the same time I find it interesting nobody seems to have any issues when the pics show up of a mantis eating a hummingbird. There are fish sold as feeders just like there are mice sold as feeders. But I guess it is ok to feed a fish to another fish but not a mantis?


There is a difference between what happens in the wild and what practices we are posting on youtube. Documented predation on vertebrates by mantids in the wild is very rare and worth a pic. As with lions or hyenas eating live elefants this may be disgusting and unfair, but nature is unfair and gruesome. But noone should feed vertebrates to mantids at home, because we shouldn't be unfair and gruesome!! Torturing a vertebrate by feeding it alive to a predator like a mantis that doesn't kill its prey before devouring it isn't something that we should promote. Every vertebrate kills its prey before eating it and that's why feeder verts are accepted. Whether fed alive or dead, the prey will not suffer a lot. This isn't the case with mantids and promoting this on the internet sheds a wrong light on us and our hobby. We are not perverse satanic psychos which get a (*use of vulgarity deleted*) while torturing animals but serious enthusiasts who can contribute a lot to the knowledge of the respective groups. If someone feels he belongs to the first category he has the wrong hobby - not that I am referring to anyone in particular.


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## Rick

Christian said:


> There is a difference between what happens in the wild and what practices we are posting on youtube. Documented predation on vertebrates by mantids in the wild is very rare and worth a pic. As with lions or hyenas eating live elefants this may be disgusting and unfair, but nature is unfair and gruesome. But noone should feed vertebrates to mantids at home, because we shouldn't be unfair and gruesome!! Torturing a vertebrate by feeding it alive to a predator like a mantis that doesn't kill its prey before devouring it isn't something that we should promote. Every vertebrate kills its prey before eating it and that's why feeder verts are accepted. Whether fed alive or dead, the prey will not suffer a lot. This isn't the case with mantids and promoting this on the internet sheds a wrong light on us and our hobby. We are not perverse satanic psychos which get a (use of vulgarity deleted) while torturing animals but serious enthusiasts who can contribute a lot to the knowledge of the respective groups. If someone feels he belongs to the first category he has the wrong hobby - not that I am referring to anyone in particular.


Every vertebrate kills its prey before eating it? That isn't true. I don't use fish as mantis food but I don't have a problem with someone else doing it as long as the fish used was bred to be a 'feeder' fish. I often find small anole lizards living in the same weeds around here that chinese mantids live. They must eat these small lizards, but if someone fed one to a mantis and posted the video would you be upset? I guess that it would be ok since it could happen in the wild? I don't see it as being any different. Could a mantis eat a fish in the wild? Very unlikely but it could happen. I see these small puddles around here that dry up and contain fish. These places are bordered by weeds. Lets say that the water dries up and there are small fish flopping around in the mud and a mantis lives in the weeds next to the puddle. Could a mantis catch one of those fish? I think so. If that was documented would be ok with the feeding of fish then?


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## Christian

Videos like this damage the hobby. Bad enough if someone see's no difference between the two situations, but as long as the "blindness" happens at home I could live with it. But there may arise a problem if videos of such stuff alerts some bored animal-rights activists or politicians!


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## Rick

Christian said:


> Videos like this damage the hobby. Bad enough if someone see's no difference between the two situations, but as long as the "blindness" happens at home I could live with it. But there may arise a problem if videos of such stuff alerts some bored animal-rights activists or politicians!


Now that I do agree. I'm not saying I think these types of vids are ok to post for everyone to see.


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## bassist

Rick said:


> Now that I do agree. I'm not saying I think these types of vids are ok to post for everyone to see.


Agreed.


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## lynneowen1

Rick said:


> I'm not saying I think these types of vids are ok to post for everyone to see.


So get rid of it? Your admin, this is damaging to the hobby and your site! mods here leave alot to be desired!


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## Rob Byatt

It seems that most people are missing the point completely - does common sense not prevail anymore?

I was speaking to Gurd earlies about this topic and his views are also clear. One of the fairs he attended this year was nearly stopped due to animal right campaigners. Why? Because they viewed the selling of invertebrates in small tubs as cruelty. This is obviously rediculous but it shows how fragile the situation can become.



> These places are bordered by weeds. Lets say that the water dries up and there are small fish flopping around in the mud and a mantis lives in the weeds next to the puddle. Could a mantis catch one of those fish? I think so. If that was documented would be ok with the feeding of fish then?





> At the same time I find it interesting nobody seems to have any issues when the pics show up of a mantis eating a hummingbird


These are completely irrelevant. Of course these instances are okay - neither were fed to the mantis by a human!

I just don't understand why anyone would risk their own hobby by posting such unnecessary practices on the web, especially when those same people complain about the legislations that are affecting the hobby as a whole. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot  

Rob.


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## ismart

lynneowen1 said:


> So get rid of it? Your admin, this is damaging to the hobby and your site! mods here leave alot to be desired!


Rick is not going to delete this thread. He wants peter to handle this personally.

I seriously doubt peter is deliberately trying to damage the hobby. That just would not make very much sense! He's not the first one to post a video like this, and i'm sure he won't be the last! Let him voice his opinion before throwing any stones!

I don't care either way as long as it's done in the privacy of your own home. I did forget myself that everyone is capable of viewing these videos on youtube. I do hope after all this is said and done, that this thread can be deleted. We really don't need any negative publicity.


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## Rick

lynneowen1 said:


> So get rid of it? Your admin, this is damaging to the hobby and your site! mods here leave alot to be desired!


You've been here six months. If you don't like how the site is handled then go find another mantis site. I will not delete this thread for the reason I already stated.


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## Orin

Where was the outrage when this one was posted?


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## ismart

Orin said:


> Where was the outrage when this one was posted?


 :lol: :lol: :lol: Now were really going to have the animal rights activisits after us! :lol:


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## Rob Byatt

The intelligence of the 'staff' here never ceases to amaze me. Are you all really that ignorant?

I want a yes or no answer to this question from each and every one of you;

Do you think that the condonation of feeding live vertebrates to mantids is responsible?


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## Orin

In our country the animal rights activists are already trying to make it a felony offense punishable by up to five years in prison per animal to keep nearly any exotic fish, bird, invert, reptile, etc. I'm surprised you haven't noticed the banners on many user accounts and the long discussions. Outrage over someone feeding a feeder to a predator will not cause them to stop their pursuit.


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## PhilinYuma

Well, bless your repetitive hearts! I can understand, if not endorse, the _frisson _that "eating up the food chain" causes many people. Frankly, I find the eating of a fish, cockroach or any other critter, by a mantis rather boring. My pleasure comes from watching the strike, but I have no problem with those who do enjoy it, with or without a bulging Richard. Of course, the answer for those of you who abhor this or any other kind of display, be it pornography or a speech by Sarah Palin, is to simply not watch it, but no, you are not content with this, you must bend the rest of us to your will, by vague threats of "governmental action" (not yet, but soon, just mark my words!), misrepresentation of fact, (vertebrates always kill their prey before feeding, piranhas simply swallow a horse whole; it doesn't feel a thing) by spurious analogy (it is unnatural, as opposed to feeding a mantis honey on a stick or a beheaded cricket on a pair of forceps). The vague, Chicken Little, threats of some future disaster consequent on the action being debated, has little rhetorical value unless it has some evidence, however specious, to back it up. Lolicon hentai is freely available on the internet, yet no "bored politician" either in the U.S. or Europe (unless you count Ireland!) has made any move to ban it, despite the anti-child pornography statutes in both regions, and I would rank it rather higher than fish-eating mantids.

In the hands of our European members who are the most vociferous opponents of this practice, this also becomes a subset of the "Americans will destroy the mantis hobby" manifesto.We have been solemnly advised that, contrary to all available evidence on the subject, the use of common names for mantids will destroy the hobby. Here, we are given the judgment, equally untrammeled by supporting evidence, that while this pernicious practice (and remember, it too my "destroy the hobby" very soon) may be condoned in the U.S., "in Europe this kind of behaviour is viewed very differently." I lack the skill and language ability to assess Europe's attitude toward mantids eating fish, though I'm sure that there is a scholarly article on it somewhere, but since it is mid evening in the U.K. I sent out a few Emails asking what friends and relatives think. I only have one answer so far, from 17 yr old Sarah (a great niece, I think): "Krewl. Kreepy. Kool!!," but I should wait for at least one more answer before making a judgment on the European consensus.

All of these, though, are mere quibbles and an amusing reflection on the rhetorical skills of those who use them. What is much, much more reprehensible, though, is to say, "this is a nasty topic that gets people excited, so let's remove the thread and make it go away." Germans in the '30's (and I am old enough to have talked with some) who disapproved of Hitler's traeatment of the Jews, kept quiet about it and were complicit in the deaths of 6,000,000 people. Now a days, (I am writing this in English, to honour our English members. I hope that you blokes and blokesses enjoyed the Houseman reference) the American Press refuses to show any pix of dead American soldiers in the combat zone. This magically brings them back to life and puts an end to the conflict. Debate never hurts. Censorship, whether imposed or voluntary, can.

On the bright side, this topic does elicit a response from some of my friends and countrymen who are not usually very prominent on our forum. Gurd, whose posts almost never exceed one line, managed four on this subject. Rob, of course, never lets us down when it comes to discussing fish, and lynneowen, what can I say? My only fear, Rob, is that the "ignorance" and "intelligence" or lack thereof, of the owner and administrators of this forum may cause you and other "serious hobbyists" to leave the forum and thus deprive of us of the interesting and helpful insights into mantis keeping that you post with such regularity. I noticed that all three of you replied within an hour and a half of each other. In the U.S., flying saucer aficionados notify each other of new UFO sightings so that they can don their metal foil hats. Do you have a similar network?  

Thanks, Peter! Good photography and a great song!! Rick and Orin, I wouldn't have your job for all the tea in China!


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## Orin

Rob Byatt said:


> The intelligence of the 'staff' here never ceases to amaze me. Are you all really that ignorant?


You have to jump straigh into calling names? Most forums would ban you for flaming moderators in open discussion.


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## Rob Byatt

Orin said:


> In our country the animal rights activists are already trying to make it a felony offense punishable by up to five years in prison per animal to keep nearly any exotic fish, bird, invert, reptile, etc. I'm surprised you haven't noticed the banners on many user accounts and the long discussions. Outrage over someone feeding a feeder to a predator will not cause them to stop their pursuit.


So giving them ammunition helps? In my first reply I referred to the problems already happeneing over there.



Orin said:


> You have to jump straigh into calling names? Most forums would ban you for flaming moderators in open discussion.


Actually no, but it makes a refreshing change from the name calling being directed at me, which, coincidentally is acceptable  

As for speaking to other people about this subject, yes, of course I have and so what?

As for banning, believe me, there is no need  

Orin, would you answer my question please?


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## Ian

Pipe down Rob, stop coming over here and flaming everyone as ususal. If you're so offended/bothered, then please go elsewhere.


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## Rob Byatt

Ian said:


> Pipe down Rob, stop coming over here and flaming everyone as ususal. If you're so offended/bothered, then please go elsewhere.


Flaming? I was only using the evidence given to me.

ian, would you kindly answer the question I asked?

Also, please put my last post back on the forum.


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## Rob Byatt

Again, another of my posts has been deleted.

Will one of you please answer my question? I'm now on moderator post watch apparently, so I'd at least like one answer.....

I'll keep posting until one of you replies.


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## Ian

I didn't remove your post. And yes, you were flaming.

In response to your question, do I think it's responsible? Personally, I don't see why there is such a big deal about it, I guess it comes down to personal preference. Can I see why people are offended? To some degree, yes. I would say that posting the video was neither responsible or irresponsible.

I people find something offensive, move on. Don't get abusive and personal.


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## Peter Clausen

Anybody who keeps an organism in captivity is doing the very same thing. Feeding captive-raised houseflies, mass-produced crickets, housing mantises in tiny cages? These are all shades of the same gray. No captive habitat replaces nature. If you are a scientist studying mantises that's one thing, but every single person who keeps mantises as pets and has a problem with this video is a hypocrite. I'm personally aware of the moral implications of the video. Anybody that is upset about the video should seriously consider whether they should even be keeping mantises as pets because they are doing the very same thing. Of course, I'm not judging you. My personal belief is that human awareness of bugs is the only step towards their salvation. So, somebody call CNN and tell them what I did!

Yes, it was a feeder fish that was destined to live a meaningless existence since the reptile we bought it for would not eat it. By my moral judgment, I gave the existence of this fish meaning as I fed it to a mantis normally confined to an unnatural diet of house flies, house crickets and breeder roaches. Not incidentally, these feeder insects are fed on unnatural diets including ground up cow, pig and chicken parts in the dried dog food they consume. In turn, this ends up in the mantis stomach. But like I said, it doesn’t matter if your pet mantis doesn’t eat dogfood-fed crickets. If you are keeping it in a cage you are still a hypocrite by your own definition. I realize I'm a hypocrite. I’m a bug-loving hypocrite. If I lived in a hunter and gatherer society, I'd be surrounded by bugs and not feel as compelled to keep them. However, I live in a cold, wet place with no bugs (not so much by choice). I live in a house/yard that displaces native habitat, drive a car that pollutes in so many ways. What about you? We have a reality to deal with here. Mantises aren't even on the radar! Ancient cultures deified them. What do we deify? Celebrities, cars, etc. You want to ask who is a friend to the mantis? I'll tell you...

Orin writes books about them.

Rick's years of dedicated moderating on this forum.

Ian has created many insect resources.

Rob has been raising them for fifteen years.

Christian provides our community with "the facts".

Ismart supports the hobby through his breeding efforts and participation here.

PhilinYuma's objectivity.

Just because somebody doesn't agree with my posting of a video, doesn't diminish my overall respect for them as a generally like-minded person.

Mantises eat all their feeders alive. Many insects eat fish in the wild (though most of them are aquatic insects). To say a mantis never eats up the foodchain is ridiculous. To display it in a video may be sensational, I admit, however all the arguments posted here against doing it are just as sensational!

If you expose a group of people (the Youtube audience) to something they have never seen before (mantises), each of them will take something different away from the experience (but probably a reflection of themselves). Interesting how controversy does the same in a group of people. I'm not above changing my mind about whether something is right or wrong. And I'm not angry or surprised by the response.

As for threats to leave the forum and flaming the moderators (I am the owner) who take so much time to keep it generally friendly around here…same thing…just more reflections of feelings and threats that we’ve seen before. If you will leave, leave. If stay, stay. I don’t mind an opinion, but don't blame the moderators for attempting damage control. Just because you feel your response is justified by your beliefs or emotions doesn't mean it won't incur warn points!

One last thing...stick to the issue in this thread. All further attacks directed towards Orin, Rick or Ian will result in warn points. I'm leaving the prior discussion up because I'm against censorship, however the moderators do have a responsibility to keep it friendly and they do a good job of it. This thread was temporarily closed earlier for review.


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## Matticus

+1 to Peter.

It's an animal eating an animal. Terribly rare and disgusting subject matter, right?

Also to iSmart: The animal rights activists don't care about people or fish, so they're no problem for the video or the pic =P


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## Christian

The point is still missed, but I will not insist any more. Go on like this. Obviously it seems to be a cultural issue, since most Europeans are against those practices, while most Americans don't see a problem. As with any cultural difference, it is almost impossible to find a consense.

Of course piranhas aren't swallowing horses, simply because piranhas as mainly fish eaters. I made a generalization to emphasize a point, instead of searching for the 2 per cent exceptions you should have tried to understand why we have a problem with it.

I leave this discussion with a certain taste of disgust down my throat and have the hope that one will actually read what we *have* written and not what the reader likes to extract from it.

I don't like the way some people are treated here either. I will have to rethink some stuff and make a decision.


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## ismart

Matticus said:


> +1 to Peter.It's an animal eating an animal. Terribly rare and disgusting subject matter, right?
> 
> Also to iSmart: The animal rights activists don't care about people or fish, so they're no problem for the video or the pic =P


Being a new yorker, i surpose i'm just a little paranoid. Pretty much all the exotics here are already banned. I cant even buy a tarantula here anymore.


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## ABbuggin

Christian said:


> Obviously it seems to be a cultural issue, since most Europeans are against those practices, while most Americans don't see a problem. As with any cultural difference, it is almost impossible to find a consense.


I couldn't agree more. Personally, I don't see a problem with it, it is just a feeder minnow that was bred to be fed later on in life. Its no different that us using roaches, crickets, flies, moths, etc to feed our mantids. Besides, several other animals are bred as feeders for snakes including rabbits and mice. I just don't see what the hype is all about.  I know others have their opinions though.


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## Rick

ABbuggin said:


> I couldn't agree more. Personally, I don't see a problem with it, it is just a feeder minnow that was bred to be fed later on in life. Its no different that us using roaches, crickets, flies, moths, etc to feed out mantids. Besides, several other animals are bred as feeders for snakes including rabbits and mice. I just don't see what the hype is all about.  I know others have their opinions though.


+1. If it was a kitten or something then yeah I could see it being an issue.


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## Orin

Rick said:


> +1. If it was a kitten or something then yeah I could see it being an issue.


 I'm still heartbroken over that poor chap who was fed to a mantis


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## Rob Byatt

Ian said:


> And yes, you were flaming.........Don't get abusive and personal.


I said what I thought, big deal. If moderators can't take aa bit of critisism without locking threads or deleting posts then I give up. Not once have I removed bad words directed to me or arguments I disagree with on the forums I moderate.

Personal attacks? So tell me, why was it okay in the past for me to be called an ######, anal and a few other less than nice names? Don't get me wrong, I have been called far worse things by far worse people, but it is the hypocrisy that annoys me.



Christian said:


> The point is still missed, but I will not insist any more.


We have tried Christian, many times. One day we can say I told you so  There was a time when my complaints were listened to and the posts removed; something changed along the way.

When are you all going to listen to what we are saying??? We are simple being cautious to protect the future of the hobby, where is the problem with that?

I'll go back to 'raising' mantids now :lol: 

Rob.


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## Orin

Rob Byatt said:


> So tell me, why was it okay in the past for me to be called an ######, anal and a few other less than nice names?


 Name calling is not acceptable. You've never reported an incident to me. You have to send a PM if you have a problem. I can't follow you around watching for every time you're rude to someone and they call you a name.


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## Ian

Rob, a bit of criticism is fine. Personal attacks are not. And why is it you think that every time you make a complaint, action should be taken? Fair enough if there's something you disagree with, obviously you're entitled to your opinion. But because you don't like what you see, doesn't mean it's gone for everyone. We often get people reporting material that they don't like, but unless it's clearly something unacceptable, it will stay visible.

Let's face it, if material was removed that one person didn't agree with, it would be a fairly empty forum.


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## Kruszakus

Nevermind. I'm way better that doing something that cruel.


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## revmdn

It's funny that the members of this forum that are so offended by this video are also the same members being the most offensive to their fellow members who do not share their beliefs.


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## PhilinYuma

Rob Byatt said:


> I said what I thought, big deal. If moderators can't take aa bit of critisism without locking threads or deleting posts then I give up. Not once have I removed bad words directed to me or arguments I disagree with on the forums I moderate. Personal attacks? So tell me, why was it okay in the past for me to be called an ######, anal and a few other less than nice names? Don't get me wrong, I have been called far worse things by far worse people, but it is the hypocrisy that annoys me.
> 
> We have tried Christian, many times. One day we can say I told you so  There was a time when my complaints were listened to and the posts removed; something changed along the way.
> 
> When are you all going to listen to what we are saying??? We are simple being cautious to protect the future of the hobby, where is the problem with that?
> 
> I'll go back to 'raising' mantids now :lol:
> 
> Rob.


Well, I'm going to bow out of this thread on an upbeat and positive note!

Rob. You complain that we are not getting yr point. I want you to know that you haven't failed. Yr point is made quite clearly and cogently. If I understand you, and I do, you say that while you have no objections to folks feeding live fish to mantids in private, you fear that if they post pix of this practice on You Tube and on this site, sooner or later, someone will ban the keeping of mantids. We are very familiar with this argument in the U.S. as in the doctrine of "Don't ask, don't tell" in the armed forces. It is not that we don't get your point, it is just that we strongly disagree with it. Do you or Christian get _our_ point?

The good news, though, is summed up in Christian's last post. American's are less concerned with fishes' rights than you believe Europeans to be. Mantid Forum and You Tube are American sites. However bored Christian's hypothetical politician may be, it would be hard to get much traction for an attempt to ban mantid keeping in Europe solely on the basis of the practice of a few degenerate Americans. So there you are. Our behavior is not likely to interest your politicians or animal rights groups any more than the fate of fox hunting in England concerns Americans. You're not at risk from us!

Some of your fellow European hobbyists, though, do not agree with your viewpoint. Kruszakus is up front in telling us that Peter and those who agree with him are cruel and that he is a better person than we. A comforting philosophy indeed. Christian is more subtle, so I am not sure whether the taste of disgust down his throat (reification!!  ) is due to our failure to understand and therefor be converted to his argument or because he agrees with Kruszakus. That you, who have contributed nothing that I can remember to mantis care in this forum in the past year, would call allies with a similar record here (though Gurd sometimes has a pleasant word!) to press an argument that has failed in the past, suggests that you may have a deeper emotional investment in this than you know.

So one final piece of good news. This topic is obviously a thorn in your side and you seem to be unable to leave it alone, but that is curable too. You have hinted at leaving the forum on several occasions in the brief time that I have been here, because of unhappiness with the administrators and the pernicious influence of folks like me. If you quit, I would miss you, frankly, for your entertainment value, but it would be unfair of me to urge you or any like minded member to stay just for my sake. _Ite in pace!_


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## Ian

I'd love to see you on a comedy panel show Phil :lol: 

Great post.


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## ZoeRipper

Oh noes, a live fish.

Keep in mind fish don't have the brain capacity to recognize pain.

And those look like the kind I use to go fishing with.


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## revmdn

Thank you Phil.


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## Rob Byatt

PhilinYuma said:


> That you, who have contributed nothing that I can remember to mantis care in this forum in the past year


You have been here for a year, Phil  I ceased to give advice on _Hymenopus_ as no matter how much [good] advice I gave it fell on deaf ears. The same happened with _Idolomantis_. There are only so many times I will repeat myself, believe it or not.....

Phil, have you started to keep any mantids yet?


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## Cosmic

Can't quite believe why admin would even start a thread about feeding live vertebrates to an insect without knowing what will occur after, but what can I say not my site do as you please.

I can't condone it, certainly not filming it and making it public but I'm in the UK so what do my views count.

Is this an international mantid forum or just for people residing in the US? Seems the views of some members just arn't respected by members of this site who should know better.

Is you-tube a site devoted to and promoting the mantid hobby? Yes anybody can see a mantid eating a mouse/fish/snake/hummingbird on you-tube, so they may think they are pretty cool seeing the films of mantids eating live vertibrate and think "hey I'd like one of them" so they find out about the care of these mantids stumble onto this site and think "cool I can feed them live fish" but why stop there "wonder how they would get on with a mouse?"

What do you think when you step on an ant? What would you think if you stepped on a shrew? My analogy is you can't really compare vertebrates to invertebrates.

The sell of live vertebrates for the purposes of feeding to other animals is banned in this country and to my knowledge this includes "feeder fish", so maybe some of you US members can understand why some of us European members are against this.

Sorry Phil not up to scratch with some of your essays but at least it was more than one line as they don't seem to count as legit posts in your eyes.


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## revmdn

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't respect you. Buddhist and Hindus believe life is life, vert. or invert. You can't be upset when others don't share your views or opinions, or is that an American trait?


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## Mantibama

This has been an extremely interesting debate to sit on the sidelines and watch. But the time has come for myself, being a peon of no consequence nor sway within this community, to add my two cents.  First, it seems like this debate has really degraded into an us vs. them mentality between countries. Who initially drew the line of demarcation I wonder?  Phil makes a good point. How can you claim that you know the opinion of the majority of Europe on the feeding of vertebrates to mantids or, for that matter, ignorantly lump all Americans into having one sole opinion on the matter? Oh yeah I forgot! Surely the U.S. is not one of the greatest meccas of diversity and free thought in the world and we're all just mindless, baby-eating, middle east meddling, blindly religious, destroyers of the ozone. I, being an American (from the South even!), am personally horribly offended by this video and upon viewing immediately started crying tears of fish blood. Can I jump on the moral high horse as well? That's tongue-in-cheek by the way. Ironic sarcastic commentary aside, I just don't understand any value system that places prominence on one form of evolution over another. I think that conservation of rare species and preservation of one's own species are important things. Nature is much better at doing things than we are and it would be a shame to lose potential understanding of the world around us or deny future generations the possibility to do so, and, while I think the human population is a little too big, I am not a fan of murder. I know I don't want to be murdered just as much as the next guy, and since we're an intelligent enough species to communicate that to each other the whole murder is illegal thing works for me. I point both of these out to avoid attempts of contradicting my following statement. Despite religious beliefs, what we can absolutely claim is we're all just a bunch of molecules. The fish, the mantis, you, me, and judge Joe Brown are all just a bunch of molecules. I do not see any moral issues with choosing to convert a bunch of molecules into another form nor do I see how one divergent phylum developing a vertebral column gives humans the right to prioritize their life value. I'm not one to be sympathetic to animals feeling pain nor am I willing to censor my opinions or actions for fear of the repercussions of offending someone's sensibilities. That's how theocracies and China get started! What is the exact length of time that exceeds the acceptable limit of the sensation of pain anyway? In conclusion, with a sound mind (I think  ), I cannot throw any support behind the condemnation of Peter for posting this video and in fact give him a metaphorical high five. What can I say? I guess I'm too American.


----------



## PhilinYuma

Thanks for a very helpful post, cosmicbug! So the use of fish as live food _is_ a core issue in the UK. I just checked a bunch of threads on British forums and folks are now looking on it as an ethical issue. This makes a lot more sense to me, at least, than a vague fear about the possible future action of some hypothetical bored politician. I was closely associated with a few members of the British Cichlid Association a few decades ago and know that feeder fish were fed as a matter of course, then. I also remember going down to the harbor in Hastings as a kid, when the fishing boats came in. A fisherman would give the tourists a lecture on the fish that they had caught, while the latter quietly died of suffocation. Sensibilities change, I guess. Americans deplore the killing of dolphins in Denmark; Australians are outraged by the killing of baby seals in Canada: Canadians are appalled by the massacre of kangaroos in Australia, Californians are outraged by the veterinarian who ordered the killing of 3,000 infected chickens in a wood chipper ("macerator"), a practice that is routine in parts of Europe, and so it goes. Meanwhile, our own soldiers are sent to war in places where it is certain that they will kill women and children, and this is deemed unfortunate collateral damage.

Like me mum used to say, "there's nowt as queer as folk."


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## JoeCapricorn

There are other videos on Youtube of mantises eating fishies. There's one awesome one of a mantis slaying a mouse! Insects eating vertebrates isn't unheard of in nature, and let's not forget those hummingbirds. I'm sure they feel more pain than a cold blooded vertebrate, being warm blooded and having a higher metabolism.

I think insects also feel pain, but a mantis has to eat! They can't become vegan...

And if anyone here has snakes and feeds them pinkies or hoppers... I'm sure you're not among the ones protesting this sushi eating mantis.

Also, I love the music Peter puts in his videos, the song on his Horse Lubber grasshoppers is so fitting!


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## superfreak

1) Invertebrates do not have as highly developed a nervous system as vertebrates. The do not feel pain. Fish do. If youre not a biologist, dont even start with this argument.

2) The "but other people do it all the time" argument belongs in the playground. Im shocked people still carry this mentality with them into the world. Funnily enough, whenever this topic is posted by an ordinary peon and not a moderator, it gets deleted instantly.

3) The feeding of live rats and mice (and sometimes birds and gerbils and bunnies...im sure even a kitten out there somewhere!) to reptiles or large fish or even insects isnt something thats encouraged here in Australia. Perhaps its our European roots, but feeders are killed quickly and fed fresh.

4) Seeing a video like this immediately has me drawing similarities in my mind with all those horrid "vs." videos on youtube. Is this really the image we wish to display to the viewing community?

I, personally, have no problems with feeding feeder fish to a mantis. Im just calling it as i see it. And as i see it, this shouldnt have been posted up to begin with but really shouldnt have caused such a stir when it was.

Back to exam prep,

- Olga


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## PhilinYuma

Curses, Superfreak, best argument I've heard from the opposition yet!   Kittens, huh?  Good luck on Monday, luv!


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## revmdn

PhilinYuma said:


> Curses, Superfreak, best argument I've heard from the opposition yet!   Kittens, huh?  Good luck on Monday, luv!


Yeah Phil, she is one swell young laddie, isn't she. :wub: No offense James.


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## JoeCapricorn

superfreak said:


> 1) Invertebrates do not have as highly developed a nervous system as vertebrates. The do not feel pain. Fish do. If youre not a biologist, dont even start with this argument.2) The "but other people do it all the time" argument belongs in the playground. Im shocked people still carry this mentality with them into the world. Funnily enough, whenever this topic is posted by an ordinary peon and not a moderator, it gets deleted instantly.
> 
> 3) The feeding of live rats and mice (and sometimes birds and gerbils and bunnies...im sure even a kitten out there somewhere!) to reptiles or large fish or even insects isnt something thats encouraged here in Australia. Perhaps its our European roots, but feeders are killed quickly and fed fresh.
> 
> 4) Seeing a video like this immediately has me drawing similarities in my mind with all those horrid "vs." videos on youtube. Is this really the image we wish to display to the viewing community?
> 
> I, personally, have no problems with feeding feeder fish to a mantis. Im just calling it as i see it. And as i see it, this shouldnt have been posted up to begin with but really shouldnt have caused such a stir when it was.
> 
> Back to exam prep,
> 
> - Olga


1) I disagree. It hasn't been proven either way, I'm not sure of any research in the field of insect pain... but crustaceans have been researched and there has been some evidence pointing to morphine affecting them in a similar way as it affects vertebrates. My personal opinion is that they do feel pain. I don't think it can be proven either way, because the sense experiences from the point of view of an insect cannot be completely understood to my knowledge. I think figuring this out sometimes is influenced by our own empathy, because insects and other inverts do react to noxious stimulus in a similar way to vertebrates. I mean, sometimes I wonder if my pet Monarch Valentine, who is missing her front two wings, feels sadness because she cannot fly free... but that doesn't mean she actually feels sad, right? But if so, I'd like to think that I am cheering her up when I feed her and let her sit on my finger.

3) Bunnies? Kittens? ;_; I can't see myself owning a snake or other reptile that requires mice. In fact, whenever I go to this local reptile shop, I sometimes ponder having a pet mouse... because they are so cute and small. What sort of pet would a kitten be fed to? I certainly wouldn't want something like that around my house. I have a cat named Milo and I don't want Milo to be food :c

4) Mantises are fascinating creatures to watch, the first thing people are curious about is how they catch their food... the second thing is how they eat their mates. Naturally, when someone has footage of a mantis eating, they'd post it because they feel it would satisfy the curiosity of others about how a mantis eats. Personally, my favorite video on Youtube is "Mantis religiosa and wasp" (it's actually a S. viridis, though) because of the little "happy dance" the mantis does at the end. "Sick Praying Mantis" seems to be another popular video, because it caters to our feelings of empathy toward the mantis - the mantis in the video is missing her two hind left feet and is advertised as being sick (although aside from her feet she seems fine to me). I also like the "Astrid being dumb" video because of the cuteness of a mantis trying to grab water.

Yeah, the negative response to this video had me going "lol wut"...


----------



## PhilinYuma

JoeCapricorn said:


> 1) I disagree. It hasn't been proven either way, I'm not sure of any research in the field of insect pain... but crustaceans have been researched and there has been some evidence pointing to morphine affecting them in a similar way as it affects vertebrates. My personal opinion is that they do feel pain. I don't think it can be proven either way, because the sense experiences from the point of view of an insect cannot be completely understood to my knowledge. I think figuring this out sometimes is influenced by our own empathy, because insects and other inverts do react to noxious stimulus in a similar way to vertebrates. I mean, sometimes I wonder if my pet Monarch Valentine, who is missing her front two wings, feels sadness because she cannot fly free... but that doesn't mean she actually feels sad, right? But if so, I'd like to think that I am cheering her up when I feed her and let her sit on my finger. Yeah, the negative response to this video had me going "lol wut"...


Hey, go for it Joe! Morphine on crustaceans, huh? I reckon that you think that Superfreak is wrong, then, when she says that you need a background in biology to argue her point? Unfortunately (or fortunately  ), she is cramming at the moment, but I'm sure that she won't mind if I stick to a simple answer about insects not having a highly developed nervous system compared to vertebrates. As you know, there are several ways of measuring stimulus response in insects, and one is the Weber-Fechner relationships. There, you may remember, the magnitude of the stimulus effect on the frequency of action potentials of the sense cell is related to the log of the stimulus strength. This is covered in Murray Blum's _Fundamentals of Insect Physiology_ (1985) Chap 7 and Marc Klowden's _Physiological Systems in Insects_(2002) Chap 11, but it is pretty routine stuff, available anywhere. And that relationship can only obtain due to the very limited ranges of mechanoreceptor response in insects. I imagine that that was what Superfreak had in mind, but like you, I am not a biologist, let alone an entomologist.

You won't see the term "pain" used in works on insect physiology, because while one can measure stimuli, pain is a subjective response to that stimulus. It is often addressed as a psycholinguistic issue, and that does come under my area of competence, so without bothering you with any more jargon, I can tell you confidently that insects do not experience pain (except in parts of Ohio) in the sense that we do (and if you read somewhere that pain in insects can be defined as a sensory experience that evokes an aversive response, go find another book), and "pain" in any other sense is unimaginable and consequently meaningless.


----------



## Kruszakus

PhilinYuma said:


> Some of your fellow European hobbyists, though, do not agree with your viewpoint. Kruszakus is up front in telling us that Peter and those who agree with him are cruel and that he is a better person than we. A comforting philosophy indeed. Christian is more subtle, so I am not sure whether the taste of disgust down his throat (reification!!  ) is due to our failure to understand and therefor be converted to his argument or because he agrees with Kruszakus. That you, who have contributed nothing that I can remember to mantis care in this forum in the past year, would call allies with a similar record here (though Gurd sometimes has a pleasant word!) to press an argument that has failed in the past, suggests that you may have a deeper emotional investment in this than you know. _Ite in pace!_


I promised mysef to ignore you, but since you've misinterpreted what I wrote, I have to address that.

I did not say I'm a better person - I just said that I'm better than doing the activity described in this thread. I don't feel the need to throw every living creature in front of my mantids and watch the results of such a face-off.


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## Rick

superfreak said:


> 1) Invertebrates do not have as highly developed a nervous system as vertebrates. The do not feel pain. Fish do. If youre not a biologist, dont even start with this argument.2) The "but other people do it all the time" argument belongs in the playground. Im shocked people still carry this mentality with them into the world. Funnily enough, whenever this topic is posted by an ordinary peon and not a moderator, it gets deleted instantly.
> 
> 3) The feeding of live rats and mice (and sometimes birds and gerbils and bunnies...im sure even a kitten out there somewhere!) to reptiles or large fish or even insects isnt something thats encouraged here in Australia. Perhaps its our European roots, but feeders are killed quickly and fed fresh.
> 
> 4) Seeing a video like this immediately has me drawing similarities in my mind with all those horrid "vs." videos on youtube. Is this really the image we wish to display to the viewing community?
> 
> I, personally, have no problems with feeding feeder fish to a mantis. Im just calling it as i see it. And as i see it, this shouldnt have been posted up to begin with but really shouldnt have caused such a stir when it was.
> 
> Back to exam prep,
> 
> - Olga


Are you a biologist?

Your European roots? Do you know anything about the history of the U.S.? Who do you think did the majority of the colonization here?


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## PhilinYuma

Kruszakus said:


> I promised mysef to ignore you, but since you've misinterpreted what I wrote, I have to address that. I did not say I'm a better person - I just said that I'm better than doing the activity described in this thread. I don't feel the need to throw every living creature in front of my mantids and watch the results of such a face-off.


I'm sorry, Kruszakus, if I misunderstood you. I think you said, "Nevermind. I'm way better that doing something that cruel." This is "almost English" and doesn't really make any sense. Having been guilty of "almost French" and "almost German" myself on occasion, I can fully sympathize. I reckoned that you meant that you were a better person than someone who would do the described activity. Remember that in English, adjectives with an "er" suffix (I think that the Polish equivalent is "szy", no?) are aptly named "comparative," so I was correct in inferring a comparison. I'm sure that we would all like to hear what you really mean, so if you have a Polish friend fluent in English, maybe he could give you a more cogent translation. It is reassuring, though, to know that you are not feeding kittens.  

I didn't know about yr promise to yrself to ignore me; how cool is that?! Probably not a bad idea; it will keep you out of some losing arguments!  

Rick: "Your European roots? Do you know anything about the history of the U.S.? Who do you think did the majority of the colonization here?"

Now that is an interesting question! Perhaps I should mention here that Superfreak is very much an adoptive granddaughter to me, in a relationship which exists mostly outside of this forum. Right now she is (or should be!) sleeping before her first final at 2100, Yuma time, or 1500, on Monday in Sidney, so I'll answer this. Generally, Europeans, and non-Europeans for that matter, know about much more about America than Americans know about other countries. I have been told by some American friends that that is because, "we are the most powerful country in the world!" but no, it is simpoly ignorance and poor education. I advise them to start learning about China.  

Being of European descent or extraction does not mean that one shares European mores or values, as I'm sure you will agree. Superfreak and I are both naturalized expats, though for her, the dichotomy between European (Ukrainian) and Australian culture is much more apparent, since she speaks Russian at home with her parents and English (or strine, which is almost the same thing!) everywhere else.

The sad thing for folks like me and SF's 'rents is that our Europe doesn't exist, and in my case, has not existed for half a century. It froze on the day that we left our homeland. I am in daily contact with English family and friends but had absolutely no idea about the shift in sensibility about feeding live fish! Imagine an American who left the U.S. in the '60s and still regarded the values of that era as "American!" But our empathy for and some of the values of our homeland persist, and Superfreak is very precise in referring to her European "roots." They run deep.

Decades ago, I took a rather mediocre BS in biology and vaguely remember some of the principles and know how to read a biology book, provided that it isn't too difficult. Superfreak is in her senior year at uni and takes a preponderance of entomology courses. I have no doubt at all that she knows a lot more biology than I. I think though, that she was referring to a biologist's way of looking at the data, and the first two sentences of Joe's post were a perfect example of what happens when someone without any scientific education whatsoever voices their opinion on a scientific subject. American schools foster the notion that a multiplicity of views on a given subject are important and worthy of equal consideration. No.

Hope that that helps!


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## JoeCapricorn

PhilinYuma said:


> and the first two sentences of Joe's post were a perfect example of what happens when someone without any scientific education whatsoever voices their opinion on a scientific subject. American schools foster the notion that a multiplicity of views on a given subject are important and worthy of equal consideration.


Eh! I'm in my fifth year of college. I've seen my share of science classes... although currently I am taking Computer Science. I think your response to my previous post was pretty much a solid rebuttal to my opinion... but I think I said that insects probably do feel pain, just not in the same way that we do, and that pain is subjective.

When I was in high school, and we were taught that the Earth is round... there wasn't an asterisk that explained "But some believe the world to be flat"

Now, flat-earth-ists are rare and extremely mentally impaired... but a more common example is the whole "intelligent design" fallacy. I am dumbfounded that this issue is even debated to this day...


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## Kruszakus

I really could not care less about you assessing my English - you're not giving me my diploma. This is a forum devoted to mantis rearing, not to the proper use of English.

I know that you like to get attention by flaunting your knowledge and write longish and redundant "essays" on every subject you have someting to say about, I get that - we all need attention.


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## beckyl92

this is getting pretty bad now.

unless you want this forum to fall apart, i'd remove it :/


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## PhilinYuma

BeckyL said:


> this is getting pretty bad now.unless you want this forum to fall apart, i'd remove it :/


Sorry if I -- we -- made you uncomfortable, Becky, but you should take a lot of this slanging with a grain of salt. I think that Kruszakus, for example, is an asset to the hobby and a more able mantis keeper (and sandbag thrower, come to that) than I shall ever be, but I find it hard to resist when someone leads with their chin!  I do have one rule though, and that is not to debate with, or even talk to, someone on the forum that I seriously dislike. Just like in real life!

Point taken, Joe!


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## Peter Clausen

Just a quick note to say that a few of the members who have expressed issues on this subject clearly had ulterior motives.

For those that may not know, this isn't the only forum on mantises on the internet. A not so subtle attack has been attempted by members of another forum. Loyalist members of their forum (including management) have done their very best this last week to make the most of an opportunity.

They have gone to extreme lengths to attack the moderators of this forum for a video I posted on Youtube. Instead of making the video the issue, certain "members" focused on the moderators here and the management of our forum. This doesn't include everybody in oppostion to the video of a mantis eating a fish. I respect the opinions of others and value their participation in our community despite our sometimes differences of opinion. I do, however, have no respect for those who would attack our community and seek to divide not just our community but the hobby itself with sensational claims. This has always been the most successful mantid forum on the internet and remains the best source for information on the subject. There is clearly a vested interest by some to replace this website. Perhaps they will succeed some day. I'm not interested in control or games. It is no secret that endless dedication to a cause yields results. Me? I'm just interested in mantises. I can say the same for the moderators here and nearly all of the membership. We have no reason to compete or join their forum and PM their members seeking to steal them away. I think I can speak for many and say we don't care or have time to care. We do this because we have a passion for mantises and _their nature_ and nature in general.

It should be pointed out that certain members have been granted more freedoms to express themelves here than they would have been allowed on any other successful internet forum. And as I said before, the words they type are a reflection on themselves. For those that may not see through the mud that's been slung here in an attempt to steal members from our forum (over to theirs) and their vain attempt to divide the mantis hobby into American vs. European, this message is for them and you, and it is simple...

All are welcome here.

I want to thank our moderators (Orin, Rick &amp; Ian) for taking a good portion of the brunt of this attack against our community and handling it professionally. Lastly, I want to say thank you to the members that respectfully voiced their opinion on a "controversial" subject for the sake of personal conviction and argument (and not ulterior motives). We will leave this thread open for another moment or two and be moving on shortly. These things happen from time to time. It would be easy to hide the truth or delete chosen posts or the thread entirely, but we've gone through this as a community and will conclude it as a community. What happens here surely isn't the beginning or end of anybody's life (and certainly not the beginning/end of the hobby itself), but I feel some obligation to reveal the entirety of what we've all been dealing with here.

For the record, nobody has been banned or even given warn points...but then, the thread isn't quite closed yet.  To suggest that the forum is falling apart is ridiculous. With exception of a few people with ulterior motives, the same people threatening to leave have a history of doing just that.

And with that, now I'm off to feed a hundred or so mantises..."fruit flies"!


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## Ian

Falling apart? The forum is far from falling apart. Disagreements happen in all online communities, a group of 1000 plus members clearly aren't going to agree on every subject brought up.

It's clear to see for current and new members (including those trying to be "taken away"), that Mantidforum is the best mantid resource on the net. If people want to join a forum with discussion on totally redundant topics and discussion on their new mantid called "bubbles", then please, be my guest. If people want to join/stay on a forum with far more experienced mantid keepers and sound advice, I think Mantidforum is an excellent place to stay


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## revmdn

Thanks for all your hard work Peter, also thanks goes to the mods.


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## ABbuggin

revmdn said:


> Thanks for all your hard work Peter, also thanks goes to the mods.


Big +1


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## ismart

Love this place! :wub: Thanks Mods!


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## vera_renczi

That video made me kinda sick because I have an irrational fear of fish out of water. Haha, I'm laaame like that. :wacko:


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## PhilinYuma

Lol Peter! Is that wild or not?  An International Mantis Conspiracy! The Battle of New Orleans all over again, with the same outcome!

If people can become so desperate and devious over tiny little mantids, thank god the elephant hobby never really caught on!  :lol:


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## cloud jaguar

This whole string of posts has been chapping my hide for some time now. Not to open up another can of worms, but I fail to see how someone in good conscience could object to this post of a bug eating a feeder fish without actively dedicating their life to eradicate veal, foie gras production, vivisection, cosmetic animal testing, european coarse fishing, by-catch among commercial fishermen, frat boys eating goldfish, national geographic's pic of a hummingbird being devoured by a mantis, skinning animals alive for furs, war, whaling by japan and norway.... the list goes on ad nauseum. Why not dedicate your energy to something useful like marching in front of the norwegian or japanese embassy? SAVE THE WHALES! NOT THE FEEDER FISH! There is nothing endangered or saced about a feeder fish. Come on people, nature is cruel.... get over it.


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## PhilinYuma

Arkanis said:


> This whole string of posts has been chapping my hide for some time now. Not to open up another can of worms, but I fail to see how someone in good conscience could object to this post of a bug eating a feeder fish without actively dedicating their life to eradicate veal, foie gras production, vivisection, cosmetic animal testing, european coarse fishing, by-catch among commercial fishermen, frat boys eating goldfish, national geographic's pic of a hummingbird being devoured by a mantis, skinning animals alive for furs, war, whaling by japan and norway.... the list goes on ad nauseum. Why not dedicate your energy to something useful like marching in front of the norwegian or japanese embassy? SAVE THE WHALES! NOT THE FEEDER FISH! There is nothing endangered or saced about a feeder fish. Come on people, nature is cruel.... get over it.


Arkanis: For more on one of these issues, go to http://www.sodahead.com/entertainment/skin...6040/?link=obaf and scroll down until you get to the pic of a very cute bunny with skin still safely on. No, I mean it, link up and scroll down, and click to enlarge!!


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## Katnapper

PhilinYuma said:


> Arkanis: For more on one of these issues, go to http://www.sodahead.com/entertainment/skin...6040/?link=obaf and scroll down until you get to the pic of a very cute bunny with skin still safely on. No, I mean it, link up and scroll down, and click to enlarge!!


Phil, I must say... I wish you'd never posted that link, and I wish I hadn't gone to it and clicked on the video. I didn't finish watching it. I couldn't.

I do believe this is much different than feeding a goldfish to a mantis in my eyes.


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## PhilinYuma

Katnapper said:


> Phil, I must say... I wish you'd never posted that link, and I wish I hadn't gone to it and clicked on the video. I didn't finish watching it. I couldn't.I do believe this is much different than feeding a goldfish to a mantis in my eyes.


Oh, Katt! You didn't follow the instructions, luv! DON'T CLICK ON THE VIDEO (I didn't)! SCROLL DOWN TO THE BUNNY!!

And if anyone else has a problem, I'll just remove the post. Dang!


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## Katnapper

PhilinYuma said:


> Oh, Katt! You didn't follow the instructions, luv! DON'T CLICK ON THE VIDEO (I didn't)! SCROLL DOWN TO THE BUNNY!!And if anyone else has a problem, I'll just remove the post. Dang!


I saw the bunny and what you wanted Roland to see...  , but I was too curious and had to click on the video.


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## JoeCapricorn

PhilinYuma said:


> Arkanis: For more on one of these issues, go to http://www.sodahead.com/entertainment/skin...6040/?link=obaf and scroll down until you get to the pic of a very cute bunny with skin still safely on. No, I mean it, link up and scroll down, and click to enlarge!!


Katnapper, rule of thumb: If the video is by PETA, it WILL shock you, sicken you and be disturbing.

As for the picture, the bunny rabbit is so cuuute and fuzzy! I'd like to have that bunny as a pet! The girl is fine too.

I think PETA should stick to the latter form of advertisement. I was genuinely sickened and disturbed by that video, and I'm the type of person who finds comedic relief in the Saw series. I also listen to brutal death metal bands that write songs about violence, rape, etc... including bands like Cattle Decapitation, who are also vegans and animal rights activists. So, unless you want to have nightmares for the next year, don't click the "Watch the video" button! Otherwise it's a decent link, mainly because of the bunny picture, just don't click that video. It shows animals getting skinned alive and still being alive after the fact x.x;


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## cloud jaguar

Yeah, that is exactly what I am saying. There are plenty of atrocities and horrideous things going on in the world that are WAAAAAY more hectic than a feeder fish being eaten by a meat eating predatory bug. I am eating so I dont really want to click on the thingy but I will take your word for it.


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## sbugir

Yeah Joe, Cattle Decapitation! Err, I know this may sound sick, but I'm a registered member of PeTA, but they do go way too far. I signed up for the awesome stickers!  The videos are gruesome, and I wish I never signed up for awesome stickers. Every bloody week is a new video of animals being tortured. Still, it's sad, but there are far more important things than a mantid eating a fish that was destined to die or be used for breeding.


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## PhilinYuma

My god! You guys got to see JAMELIA, wearing nothing but a bunny rabbit, and all you can talk about is horror movies? What is the world coming to? What were you hoping for, Alicia Keys?  

Edit: Do you think that we've wandered off topic, yet?


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## ZoeRipper

Well, I watched that video the entire way through, and by the end I was BAWLING.

Because those dogs look exactly like my old husky named Santa Paws.


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## -MK-

Woo-hoo! I made it in before the thread closed! Page 5, baby!

This thread just provided me with about an hour and a half's worth of entertainment, education, intrigue (Global Mantis Conspiracy) and a really appalling video - and I don't mean the one of the mantis eating the fish. About 1/4 of the way into it, I can't tell if that's the sound of someone coughing or vomiting.

In any case, I'm glad it appears that this thread will be preserved. Thanks to the Mods, and of course to Peter. I wonder if they'd have been less upset if he'd fed the fish to the mantis head first.


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## Morpheus uk

Well i cant read this all due to having to go to an exam in a mo BUT...

As said before it is irrisponcible to show this online, people can interprate all exotic keepers as sadistic and thats where we lose public support in favour of "cute'n'cudly" domestic animals. So when we get these new laws in to hinder and harm our hobby no one cares.

Ceratin invertebrates in the wild do occasionally feed on invertebrates and some dont need to so there really is no point in doing so unless purely for the fact that its feeding on a vertebrate. I would have no problem using vertebrates as feeders for other vertebrates and invertebrates if theres any that HAVE TO feed on vertebrates.


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## sufistic

In my humble opinion, a fish being eaten by a Praying Mantis is no different than a fish being eaten by a Mantis Shrimp or any other aquatic animal except that it would probably feel more pain being eaten in the water than out of it, because if it's out of the water it will probably be focusing on trying to breathe.

I rear fishes and my favourites are the Silver Arowana and the Oscar. I've observed them consuming feeder fish and they definitely do not kill their prey instantly, just like the Praying Mantis. In fact, I think, if one were to observe how an Oscar or an Arowana kill prey too big for them to swallow, it would definitely look more violent than a Praying Mantis eating fish.

And if it is said that this doesn't happen in the wild, I don't take it as a valid argument unless someone living 24/7 in the wild has confirmed it. I've seen a video of a Mantis actually catching fish from the water on YouTube, not hand-fed. I would post the link but I'm afraid to start any argument. Now if a Mantis has the capability to actually do that, then it's possible that they might just eat fishes in the wild.

Thoughts from an Asian who keeps Mantids and Fishes and loves them equally!


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## Morpheus uk

sufistic said:


> In my humble opinion, a fish being eaten by a Praying Mantis is no different than a fish being eaten by a Mantis Shrimp or any other aquatic animal except that it would probably feel more pain being eaten in the water than out of it, because if it's out of the water it will probably be focusing on trying to breathe.I rear fishes and my favourites are the Silver Arowana and the Oscar. I've observed them consuming feeder fish and they definitely do not kill their prey instantly, just like the Praying Mantis. In fact, I think, if one were to observe how an Oscar or an Arowana kill prey too big for them to swallow, it would definitely look more violent than a Praying Mantis eating fish.
> 
> And if it is said that this doesn't happen in the wild, I don't take it as a valid argument unless someone living 24/7 in the wild has confirmed it. I've seen a video of a Mantis actually catching fish from the water on YouTube, not hand-fed. I would post the link but I'm afraid to start any argument. Now if a Mantis has the capability to actually do that, then it's possible that they might just eat fishes in the wild.
> 
> Thoughts from an Asian who keeps Mantids and Fishes and loves them equally!


Of course it happens in the wild what DOESNT happen in the wild is humans grabbing one animal and shoving it into the jaws of the other!


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## PhilinYuma

Morpheus uk said:


> Of course it happens in the wild what DOESNT happen in the wild is humans grabbing one animal and shoving it into the jaws of the other!


But surely, keeping predators, whether mantids or snakes, consists in grabbing one animal and shoving it into the jaws of another. Did you ever hand feed a mantis?

I can sympathize with the "hurting animals" argument, even though I don't agree with it, but I do have a question for -- not a debate with -- Christians who believe that what is permissible in nature is a not permissible for humans. Why, when He was angry at Adam and Eve, did G-d equally punish the animals and make them guilty of unspeakable behavior towards each other, and why do we believe that we should be morally superior to G-d? I am sure that this is an extremely naive and easily answered question for a Christian, but I don't remember hearing the answer. Is there a Christian who can enlighten me?


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## Morpheus uk

PhilinYuma said:


> But surely, keeping predators, whether mantids or snakes, consists in grabbing one animal and shoving it into the jaws of another. Did you ever hand feed a mantis?


Thats now what we was discussing, i was commenting on feeding VERTEBRATES TO INVERTEBRATES.


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## PhilinYuma

Morpheus uk said:


> Thats now what we was discussing, i was commenting on feeding VERTEBRATES TO INVERTEBRATES.


Now I've GOT YOU! So if I understand you, it's O.K. for inverts to eat vertebrates in the wild or in captivity so long as someone is not forcing the latter into the jaws/mandibles of the former. So if I were to hold a live skink up to feed a mantis, that would be wrong, but if I just popped it into the mantid's enclosue and let "nature take it's course," that would be OK. This seems very complicated. Have I got it right? Do realize; I am not trying to oppose your argument, just understand it.

I bet that if you saw a kid fall into a swimming pool, you'd try and get it out instead of ignoring it, right? So, if you saw a mantis "in the wild" about to devour, say a small lizard, would you rescue the lizard, and wouldn't you be complicit in its suffering if you didn't? But for all you know, that mantis might have captured the lizard because it was starving. Are you going to effectively kill the mantis to save the lizard, and if so, why?

Consider a scale of human pain in which 1 is the pain caused by a scratch, and 10 is the pain caused by falling in a vat of acid (don't you hate when that happens?). Where on the scale would you put the dying fish's pain, and why? Try and be objective about this. Anyone can pick a number at random! I'm really, really looking forward to yr answer!


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## DeadInTheBasement

OMG there is NOTHING wrogn with this video i even give my $300 turtle dozens of FEEDER fish a week and i give my snapping turtle about a dozen LIVE mice a week i give my boa constrictor an adult rat after i slap it against the wall....i even watch as the slaughter house murders a piggy that i raised from a baby....unless you people are living off soy burgers and feeding your mantids nothing but carrots ALOT of you need to get over it...everything eats


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## Ian

Didn't need quite such a graphic description there...


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## hibiscusmile

unless you people are living off soy burgers and feeding your mantids nothing but carrots ALOT of you need to get over it...everything eats

Including plants.... they have to breath, and eat and drink too. Ever hear a tree scream?


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## DeadInTheBasement

Ian said:


> Didn't need quite such a graphic description there...


i think we did need sucha graphic description  

"viva la feeder critters"...until i buy em :lol:


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## Morpheus uk

Feeding live vertebrates to other vertebrates that need to feed on vertebrates is fine, feeding live vertebrates to an invertebrate that doest need isnt fine.

But obviously you people have no idea so carry on, upload as many video's as possible like this, lets see how soon your hobby gets banned


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## charlie215

DeadInTheBasement said:


> OMG there is NOTHING wrogn with this video i even give my $300 turtle dozens of FEEDER fish a week and i give my snapping turtle about a dozen LIVE mice a week i give my boa constrictor an adult rat after i slap it against the wall....i even watch as the slaughter house murders a piggy that i raised from a baby....unless you people are living off soy burgers and feeding your mantids nothing but carrots ALOT of you need to get over it...everything eats


And your precisely the sort of person who will get exotic pet keeping banned for us all. Theres no difference in what you have said and the video that has been posted, both condone unnecessary suffering.


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## Morpheus uk

Nice to see people with sence still exist


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## C.way

don't see a problem with stuff like that, what about those banned or not banned stuff?


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## DeadInTheBasement

charlie215 said:


> And your precisely the sort of person who will get exotic pet keeping banned for us all. Theres no difference in what you have said and the video that has been posted, both condone unnecessary suffering.


ut oh some one save the feeder rodents! keepers have been slapping rodents against there walls for decades and its considered the humane way even...the animal is killed INSTANTLY SO THERE IS NO SUFFERING! crickets roaches and flies should not be put in a special catergory away from rodents, fish, and feeder reptiles everything eats just somehave different feeding habits


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## PhilinYuma

charlie215 said:


> And your precisely the sort of person who will get exotic pet keeping banned for us all. Theres no difference in what you have said and the video that has been posted, both condone unnecessary suffering.


Charlie: I admire the force of yr emotion, but the force of yr argument has me puzzled. The connection between what you consider cruelty and the banning of species is not just tenuous, it is non existent. Consider that dog fights flourish not only along the southern border but in cities like NY and Chicago. Are dogs banned as a consequence? The same applies with ###### fighting, particularly in Asian communities, but chickens continue to thrive. No one here has mentioned the serious and deliberate cruelty to animals that is practiced by the cosmetics industry (oh, that's right, you did Arkanis!), the conditions experienced by battery chickens or some of the procedures in slaughter houses. None of these flagrant and long standing abuses has ever caused the "banning" of a single animal. Your argument is not only wrong, it contains a fallacy that is taught to college freshmen. If you are not familiar with the continuum, or "slippery slope" fallacy, exemplified by the absurdity of the "domino theory", then you can easily find it on the internet.

I assume that by "suffering", an emotionally colored word, you mean pain. Humans, regularly expose themselves to pain, be it in fighting, long distance running or even unaccustomed exercise, and there is not one of us who has not experienced it many times in our lives. A sadist loves to inflict pain, but I doubt if he would get much of a charge out of the "suffering" of a fish. Only one member has mentioned nociceptive responses, and that well before this thread. For a scientific argument that shows that nociception and what we experience as pain are very different things, see here: http://cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm Certainly It seems fundamental to the argument. The fish apparently is not in enough pain to die of shock and makes little attempt to struggle. If you are going to protest an action because of its outcome, it is a good idea to know exactly what that outcome is.

Meanwhile, if Peter's fish went to fishy heaven, how proud he must be to know that he was the occasion of so much discussion on the world's greatest mantis forum!


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## Orin

Morpheus uk said:


> .... lets see how soon your hobby gets banned


You obviously don't pay much attention here.


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## charlie215

Well i'm new to the hobby and i know i havent said much here as i was still trying to learn whats what but i'm sorry, we do seem to have such huge cultural differences and i don't want to be party to what i can only see as out and out barbaric behaviour and openly glorified by some of the members here so i wish to have my account removed from here, if that can be done please..


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## Orin

charlie215 said:


> Well i'm new to the hobby and i know i havent said much here as i was still trying to learn whats what but i'm sorry, we do seem to have such huge cultural differences and i don't want to be party to what i can only see as out and out barbaric behaviour and openly glorified by some of the members here so i wish to have my account removed from here, if that can be done please..


 Most forums will not remove accounts because your posts are not your property once posted and missing posts in the middle of a thread would cause continuity problems. Since you haven't posted much of anything it might not be a problem, write Peter a PM. If your account can't be removed it certainly can be disabled but you won't be able to read most of the forum.


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## Ian

Clearly, there are cultural differences here.

I know this thread has caused a lot of controversy, some wish to keep it open, some are offended by this.

Personally, I don't see a problem, but I think this thread will be thought over as to whether it stays or not.

On behalf of people who have taken offense, I can only appologise, but please see that this is ONLY a cultural difference in opinion, and not a direct "offense" at anyone concerned.


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## ZoeRipper

Why is this such a big deal?

Honestly?

That fish isn't even one that's useful, you put it on a hook and try to catch a bigger fish with it.

Jeez.


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## Orin

ZoeRipper said:


> Why is this such a big deal?


I doubt it really is, it seems like it might just be a few people (possibly one or both using multiple accounts) from a competing forum trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill in hopes of siphoning off a few members.


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## revmdn

I see you're trying to prove a point or influence other members by posting something that should have been handled through pm's with the mods or admin. Peter I see what you mean about the conspiracy. See you later charlie.


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## mantisfart2

Orin said:


> I doubt it really is, it seems like it might just be a few people (possibly one or both using multiple accounts) from a competing forum trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill in hopes of siphoning off a few members.


 :lol: conspiracy theory's popping up now, you will be wearing tin foil hats next orin,,,, stop them reading your mind h34r:


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## PhilinYuma

ZoeRipper said:


> Why is this such a big deal?Honestly?
> 
> That fish isn't even one that's useful, you put it on a hook and try to catch a bigger fish with it.
> 
> Jeez.


You're a country hick, Zoe, and so am I by raising, even though I've spent most of my life in big cities. City folk tend to have a much more idealized view of "Nature" than those who of us who have lived with itl in the country. I'm not going to put a tarantula and a scorpion in a fire ring to see who wins, but like you, I wouldn't think twice about using a small fish as bait for a bigun. Like mantids, fish often produce far too many offspring to keep -- in nature they'd be eaten by predators, so I routinely fed them to other fish. I have no problem wiith folks not wanting to do this, but I am not too keen on being called names for practices that I have followed since well before their parents were born. I think that Orin is right, and that this is not a big deal, though I don't suggest that anyone like Charlie, who complains, is part of a conspiracy.

The sad thing is that there is no evidence that fish "suffer" in the way that we would, if eaten alive, and the slippery slope argument, that our behavior will cause the end of our hobby at the hands of a bored German lawyer, is as absurd as it sounds, so the argument seems rather pointless.

This is the best forum that I have ever belonged to. That is partly due to the policies followed by the administrators and partly to the bunch of lovely members who can discuss anything from mantids to the latest video game. Long may it reign!


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## Kruszakus

DeadInTheBasement said:


> OMG there is NOTHING wrogn with this video i even give my $300 turtle dozens of FEEDER fish a week and i give my snapping turtle about a dozen LIVE mice a week i give my boa constrictor an adult rat after i slap it against the wall....i even watch as the slaughter house murders a piggy that i raised from a baby....unless you people are living off soy burgers and feeding your mantids nothing but carrots ALOT of you need to get over it...everything eats


There's a reason why people choose mantids as their little pet predators - you don't have to do what you describe. Don't tell people how to feel about using verts as feeder animals, not everyone wants or can get over it. People have different levels of sensitivity to such things - you must take it into consideration.

Also, I don't see what you are getting at here - we are talking about feeding verts to inverts, and you are giving us an example of what is, more or less, occurring in nature all the time (exept for slamming a rat against the wall). But when does a mantis get a crack at eating a fish in its natural environment? Unless a freaking tsunami picks up thousands of sardines and drops them onto tree tops somewhere in a rain forrest, maybe... but that's higly unlikely.


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## cloud jaguar

Also, with respect to inverts eating verts - what about those gross water scorpion thingies? I'll wager those eat their share of fish! Seems to me like a mantis is essentially one of those without the "eeek" factor.

Plus, far more fish will die horrible deaths daily from human pollution (let alone fishing) than from any mantids! I guess if someone really tries they can scratch out an argument for or against just about anything. Ultimately, if you don't like bug gore, legs, juice, and other nasty bits this is probably not the hobby for you anyways. Definitely not for the squeamish.

I do wonder is there are any Buddhist mantis hobbyists? It seems that respecting the sacred nature of all life would be disingenuous with feeding mantids live prey - on the other hand, they have to eat!


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## Mantibama

Arkanis said:


> Also, with respect to inverts eating verts - what about those gross water scorpion thingies? I'll wager those eat their share of fish! Seems to me like a mantis is essentially one of those without the "eeek" factor.


You actually just reminded me of a great natural example! There is this PBS series called The Shape of Life (available on youtube and a must see for anyone interested in evolution) and there is one episode called "The Conquerors" which specifically deals with arthropods likely being the first phylum to colonize land. At any rate, there is a part in the episode where a dragonfly larvae eats a newt, and I'll wager that's not incredibly rare.


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## charlie215

The whole point of the argument has been missed, its not about the fish in paticular, its about us as human beings having control over how we treat the animals we use as feeders and how we show our hobby to the outside world, be that reptiles or mantids. I just can't see what benifit in showing this video has except to please those who gain pleasure in slamming rats againt a wall.

I can't begin to understand your laws regarding mantids in the US but surely you want to protect what you have. Last week it was a fish next week it will be a baby mouse and someone will go further the week after. Please dont gamble with your hobby.

Perhaps i was hasty in asking for my account to be deleted, as i would be very happy to see a conclusion to all this and even if the end is not in the minorities favour it would be nice if the people who can't agree with your ideals could still be classed as members rather than " them animal right activists." I assure you that i'm not.

Conspiracy, we are arguing a subject here thats dear to the hearts of both sides that we both believe in, surely thats it, its being argued here on your forum and its certainly attracted some attention thats good isnt it?

As i said earlier , i'm new to the hobby of mantis keeping, 2 yrs, but i have been keeping all sorts of exotics for over 40 yrs, the internet is also comparitivly new to me and it frightens me to think of the ammo we give to politicians to help them close us down.

Thx for reading ...


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## bassist

charlie215 said:


> in slamming rats againt a wall.


This is one of the humane ways to kill a rat/mouse before feeding to a snake as the animal could fight back just because people do it does not mean they enjoy it.


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## Mantibama

charlie215 said:


> The whole point of the argument has been missed, its not about the fish in paticular, its about us as human beings having control over how we treat the animals we use as feeders and how we show our hobby to the outside world, be that reptiles or mantids. I just can't see what benifit in showing this video has except to please those who gain pleasure in slamming rats againt a wall. Conspiracy, we are arguing a subject here thats dear to the hearts of both sides that we both believe in, surely thats it, its being argued here on your forum and its certainly attracted some attention thats good isnt it?
> 
> As i said earlier , i'm new to the hobby of mantis keeping, 2 yrs, but i have been keeping all sorts of exotics for over 40 yrs, the internet is also comparitivly new to me and it frightens me to think of the ammo we give to politicians to help them close us down.


I didn't miss any point. I've already explained, in a previous post, why I feel all the humbug is unecessary without resorting to citing specific natural occurences of inverts feeding on verts. However, I think citing natural sources does discredit the apparent belief of some of the community that this is a perversion against nature and mantis keepers are mistreating feeder insects. Personally, I find the video interesting. It doesn't mean I gain pleasure from it or like to slam rats against the wall as you seem to think anyone who doesn't have a problem with the video does; I simply find it worthy of viewing. Internet ignorance is an epidemic and generalizations do nothing to prevent it from spreading. In my opinion, it's just as annoying as the "barbaric Americans" mentality that some have espoused (In some cases, with a hint of venom and self-righteousness) throughout this thread. Why can't everyone have their own unique opinion? As far as a conspiracy, I wonder what the IP logs show?


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## PhilinYuma

Well, I for one am glad that you are sticking with the forum, Charlie. In an earlier post, I provided credible scientific evidence that fish don't experience pain in the way that we do. I also warned against the continuum fallacy, though I didn't bore everyone by explaining it. I suspect that you didn't see fit to check out either, but you give a nice illustration of why the "slippery slope" argument is a fallacy. You say "last week it was a fish next week it will be a baby mouse and someone will go further the week after." And that's where your argument breaks down. A few months ago, a crazed young man asked about keeping Chinese mantids. His "dream", he told us, was to raise one to a size where it could eat a pinkie (the name here for a new born rat). Several of us hit the complaint button, but Rick was ahead of us and killed the thread. So you see, Charlie, your fears are largely autochthonous (in the psychological sense). Never in the history of the United States has the cruelty, real or imagined, of pet owners been used to ban their husbandry, and I don't see any politician bothering with the mantis hobby when there are so many more interesting targets!

I think that yr most telling argument is, "I just can't see what benefit in showing this video has except to please those who gain pleasure in slamming rats againt a wall." I don't think that it has any benefit and I don't think that it was intended to. But then, neither do Zoe's mantis drawings, and I enjoyed them. For me, the video (and I didn't watch all of it, partly due to my ADD) showed what I learned decades ago, (c.f. Romer and Parsons, _The Vertebrate Body_ 1986, Ch. 15) that a fish's ability to experience pain is limited to the skin (as the "morphine" experiments, cited above, indicate). I was fascinated to see that the fish remained alive and alert long after we would have gone into shock and died. As an aging Brit, you will probably remember what happened to Albert Ramsbottom, who was eaten by a lion, "very slowly by degrees, first his legs and then his knees, 'til he was eaten every bit. No wonder he detested it." In fact, I think that he probably stopped detesting it and went into deep shock by the time the lion got to mid thigh.

Obviously, though, you have never kept snakes, or at least never fed them rats. Snake keepers don't like to feed their charges live rats, as Bassist pointed out, because the struggling rat might damage the snake's eyes with its claws. Hitting the rat's head against a wall is a quick and humane way of killing it. Don't assume that someone is cruel unless you know their motives. Personally, I have never killed a rat in this way. My father, as kind and gentle a cockney (I already had c0ck fighting censored, lets's see what our mindless censor does with that!  ) as you would wish to meet, taught us how to break a chicken's neck when I was ten (we sold poultry) and I have done the same thing with small mammals. Quick, painless, and not at all enjoyable for the executioner.

Finally, Charlie, let me make a point that has not been mentioned so far in this thread. The "feeding fish will lead to the destruction of the hobby" fallacy has two members as its principal proponents, Rob Byatt and Christian Schwarz. These are the same guys who have argued that the hobby will be destroyed if we don't call mantids by their binomial names. In both cases, the message is clear, "if you don't follow our practice, you will destroy the hobby," and the target of these polemics are the American members of a forum based in America. I am as British as only an ex pat can be, but I find this attitude contemptible.

Take care!


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## bassist

I will point out there IS a video of a _Rhombodera _adult female(I think!) eating a live pinky mouse on youtube the video has since been flagged due to 'animal cruelty' possibly because of the recorder saying something along the lines of 'he's eatin this ###### whole body dude'


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## Cosmic

Firstly can we put this talk of conspiracy therories and an attack of this forum to bed, yes I am a member of another forum (quite a few actually) but in no way are they (we) trying to compete with this forum for who is the best/biggest mantid hobbyist forum but regionilized forums for hobbyists within in the same country/region which we use for an easier exchange of species, although international members do join from time to time.

We often refer U.S members here as it is easier for them to obtain species within their own country as shipping across the "pond" can be difficult.

I'm not sure if Peter or other members where referring to my post but I was only stating my personal views and it was in no way ment as a direct attack on this forum, I apologise if I did cause offense.

It is a difference in culture as in the UK you cannot buy live feeder vertebrates not even feeder fish for use as bait for fishing, the closest you can get is £1.00 guppys which would work out very expensive, all feeder vertebrates are sold frozen, be this sprats, pinkies,rats etc...

I do understand the need for feeding live feeders from time to time, and I have on many occassions had fish eaten by other fish.

If it is the norm I would imagine it would be widely excepted, but it is what I am used to so I will continue not to feed live vertebrates to invertebrates but that is just my own personal choice as it is yours.

Just to add I do like this forum, and will hopefully continue to use.


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## sufistic

Cosmicbug said:


> If it is the norm I would imagine it would be widely excepted, but it is what I am used to so I will continue not to feed live vertebrates to invertebrates but that is just my own personal choice as it is yours.


+1.


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## Peter Clausen

I would simply like to re-mention what I pointed out fifty posts or so ago...

Nothing about keeping mantises in captivity is in line with nature's ideal. We choose which unlucky cricket they will eat from a pet store tub of thousands, how big their habitat is going to be, force them to mate with their brothers, subject them to different day/night and temperature cycles than they'd experience in nature. How many of the fruit flies in our fruit fly cultures die meaningless lives without ever being fed to a mantis? Come on, be honest. Have we not all heartlessly had a fly culture for only a few mantises where the bulk of the culture died, having never been given meaning to their lives as food for the pets? The list goes on and on.

As I said before, every person that complains about how unnatural it is for a mantis to eat a fish is hypocrite (if they keep any mantises or animals in captivity).

And yet all these people come onto the forum and chat about what great fun it is to keep their prisoners and feed their prisoners and essentially play God to the miracle of each individual prisoner's life.

You cannot be human and walk without leaving a footprint. It is fine to say you feel feeding a (feeder) fish to a captive mantis is "wrong". But who is casting the stone? The same people throwing them are hypocrites. Those who would make friendly arguments that we are hypocrites in degrees (me being worse) can consider what is more natural...

1. Keeping a mantis in an unnatural setting (captivity)

or

2. Feeding a fish to a mantis that would only encounter one under rare circumstances in nature

Clearly, the latter is slightly more natural. (#2)

For the record, I didn't gain any pleasure in the act of filming this. I thought it was...

and in THIS order:

1. better than flushing a fish that my water dragon wouldn't eat down the toilet (gave meaning to its life)

2. Nutritional for the mantis (which only gets flies, roaches and crickets usually)

2. Interesting (selfishly)

3. A (publicly-shared via Youtube) testament to the character of a predator that would obviously eat a fish if it came across one

When I use the term "hypocrite", I don't mean it as a personal attack on anybody in particular. People are _being_ hypocritical when they object to something so similar to what they are doing with no apparent conscience whatsoever. Of course, I do consider the possibility that all these "ethical" folks feel tremendously more guilty for keeping mantises than disapproval over fish videos, but I already accounted for reflections in a previous post.


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## sufistic

Solid. Big +1 for Peter's logic. Rearing and breeding any animal is unnatural, but we still do it. Therefore, an argument based on 'ethics' would be hypocritical because what we do is 'unethical' in the first place.


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## Emile.Wilson

bassist said:


> I will point out there IS a video of a _Rhombodera _adult female(I think!) eating a live pinky mouse on youtube the video has since been flagged due to 'animal cruelty' possibly because of the recorder saying something along the lines of 'he's eatin this ###### whole body dude'


I saw that video, it was pretty nasty, the poor mouse was squeling.


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## DeadInTheBasement

meh...it was either that or the mouse to grow up and be murdered by a fellow mouse and nibbled on next to the foodbowl :lol:


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## idolomantis

Peter, May i kindly ask you the reason of this thread?

As you might noticed every time a thread was started about an invertebrate eating a vertebrate, it ended up in a conflict.

I think you knew this would happen.

No offence intended.

I share the same opinion on this topic as my felow europeans(most of them, that is).


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## ZoeRipper

PhilinYuma said:


> But then, neither do Zoe's mantis drawings, and I enjoyed them.


Aw shucks, you're makin' me blush!


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## PhilinYuma

idolomantis said:


> Peter, May i kindly ask you the reason of thread?As you might noticed every time a thread was started about an invertebrate eating a vertebrate, it ended up in a conflict.
> 
> I hope you knew this was going to happen.
> 
> I share the same opinion on this topic as my felow europeans(most of them, that is).


While Peter is consulting with his advisors on how to best answer your question, Idolo, I have a couple for you. Did you watch the video, whose content was clearly announced? If so, why would you go to the trouble to link to and turn on a video whose contents offend you? If you didn't watch, what are you complaining about?


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## idolomantis

PhilinYuma said:


> While Peter is consulting with his advisors on how to best answer your question, Idolo, I have a couple for you. Did you watch the video, whose content was clearly announced? If so, why would you go to the trouble to link to and turn on a video whose contents offend you? If you didn't watch, what are you complaining about?


Phil, i Didn't bother watching the actual video, i;ve seen other videos of mantids eating fish. so i know what it looks like.

I am not complaining about the video itself, but the fact that it is posted on a site where it obviously gets flamed.

in the time i've been here i saw 4-5 of these threads all ended up like this. why would, someone who knows this is going to be a conflict, post that video.

If the video belonged to a new member who just joined i can understand that he or she wouldn't know that, i wouldn't of have bothered to even post a reply.


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## PhilinYuma

That seems to me like a most reasonable expression of a reasonable position, Idolo. In several posts, Peter has explained his reasons for posting at some length, but there is another factor, suggested by the number of this post, that hasn't been mentioned, and that is traffic.

This is not only by far the most successful mantis forum in the world, dedicated to a hobby that most Europeans and Americans have never heard of, but it is arguably the most successful invert forum.

The reasons for this are twofold (and read this quickly before Peter deletes all evidence of my having existed on this forum; he has a Special Button).

First, in addition to mantis talk, we can relate our latest gaming and anime preferences (I remember that you are a proponent of Bleach!  ), comment on presidential elections, and discuss our pathetic attempts to build a computer. People originally attracted to the forum by the mantis content, feel encouraged to come back to share other views and opinions. This increases forum traffic as well as the idea of community.

Second, the rules about controversy here are very different from those on fact based forums in general. I belong to a U.S. technicians' forum where we are not even allowed to address each other in a "superior" manner! One young lad from Europe is a moderator on a European phasmid forum, and he politely but kindly reminds members of the rules, and always stays faithfully on topic. He is the same chap who comes on this forum and rants about his school in language which must exhaust our word censor! I'm sure (hope!) that he feels better after such ventilation, though, and he does no harm. It might seem that such a "lax" policy makes life easier for the mods, but in fact, it makes it very much harder, because they are always calculating how far to let an individual thread go.

Aside from that, though, it seems great to me that folks can debate "sensitive" issues in a reasonable way without ignoring the topic or making obscene, anonymous posts. A few years ago, you may remember one of your countrywomen killed her beloved cat, Pinkeltje and turned her into a rather attractive handbag, using the tail as a handle. Folks who had no problem with bags made from the skins of baby cows, showered her with often obscene abuse. I remembered this when I recently saw how she has gotten her revenge.


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## Peter Clausen

Good question, Idolomantis!

I can't speak for the moderators on this subject (if only because we've never discussed it), though I believe Rick said something about how he usually deletes such things before they cause a rift, but that doesn't mean I would, or that I agree with the practice of doing so. Maybe the reason I've never seen such posts on this forum before is...because they get deleted so quickly  

Of course, Phil has made a dedicated effort to educate people who have opinions about how feeding a fish to a mantis is not the same as feeding some other "vertebrates". Watch the video. Read the thread. You might ally your opinions more with the millions of Europeans that didn't post, than the couple that did!

I explained in my previous post why I made the video. I posted it because its cool, man!


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## mantisfart2

can i ask a question? and can it be answered by peter not phil? I am assuming and correct me if i am wrong you hand fed the fish to your mantis? If the only intention was to not waste the feeder fish, and give your mantis a little more protein would it not have been kinder to feed the fish dead or at the very least considering how a mantis eats head first not tail first?


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## DeadInTheBasement

when these fish die an enzyme known as thiaminase becomes VERY high(even if frozen) and it is VERY unhealthy...this is the reason they only sell LIVE feeder fish and not frozen feeder fish like they do rodents....


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## revmdn

Phil, you gotta tell me how she got her revenge.


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## PhilinYuma

Hey, Dead, I put on a clean shirt to answer mantisfart's question and then found that he wouldn't let me. :lol: , but yr post is worth at least a clean shirt.

Yes, under the right conditions, thiaminase can cause severe illness or death in many vertebrates due to thiamine deficiency. The strange cultural custom in much of Asia of regarding brown (natural) rice as inferior to polished (white) rice led to serious issues of thiamine deficiency (berri berri), but in the phenomenon that you are describing, existing thiamine is destroyed by thiaminase -- I suppose that it knocks out the methylene bridge between the two ring molecules.

Some fish, it seems, like carp, contain thiaminase while others, like salmon, don't, but they all use thiamine in the mitochondial production of ATP. What happens with frozen fish that contain this enzyme is that it will destroy the thiamine, produced in life, in the the frozen tissue, seriously reducing its nutritional value as a source of vitamin B1. Piscavores that eat live fish rich in thiaminase, though, will also develop problems if they don't enjoy a varied diet.

Some insects, apparently, such as a Nigerian silkworm whose pupae are a protein source for local residents, also manufacture the enzyme, and again, an unvaried diet of the pupae can cause thiamine deficiency unless the pupae are first cooked (yum).

There is much more about this phenomenon that I don't know than that I do. I suspect that Vit B1 (TPP) might even be toxic to insects in large enough doses. Perhaps Superfreak can help us when she is done celebrating the end of her exams, but it seems that it would be a good idea, until we learn more, to feed our mantids live rather than dead fish, but only once a week, or so, as a treat.  

Revdm:The cat episode happened a few years ago, but earlier this year, I found that she tracked down the folks who had sent her threatening/abusive Emails, learned all she could about them, such as their wish lists on Amazon, organizations that they support, etc and published them together with their original Email. Some have been upset enough to threaten her with violation of their privacy and she has replied that if they do, she will report them to the police, since hate mail is a crime in Holland. Yay cat lady!


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## DeadInTheBasement

there is no point in letting any useful part of a dead animal waste....cat/dog purses sound like a great way for some animal shelters to make some cash to feed/care for the animals that are lucky enough to get over there illness...i recently turned one of my beloved baby reticulated pythons who died of natural causes into a beautiful bracelet....well actually more than one bracelet!....


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## sufistic

DeadInTheBasement said:


> there is no point in letting any useful part of a dead animal waste....cat/dog purses sound like a great way for some animal shelters to make some cash to feed/care for the animals that are lucky enough to get over there illness...i recently turned one of my beloved baby reticulated pythons who died of natural causes into a beautiful bracelet....well actually more than one bracelet!....


I'd usually put my mantids that just died into my aquarium and let my fishes eat 'em up. The other day I put a dead ghost into the tank and my arowana was like, 'What the...I'm a CARNIVORE, why are you giving me dead leaves?!" My oscar immediately downed the ghost and was like, 'Hahaha foo. It was a bug!"


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## Rick

mantisfart2 said:


> can i ask a question? and can it be answered by peter not phil? I am assuming and correct me if i am wrong you hand fed the fish to your mantis? If the only intention was to not waste the feeder fish, and give your mantis a little more protein would it not have been kinder to feed the fish dead or at the very least considering how a mantis eats head first not tail first?


Do you killl all of your mantids food beforehand? Would you be ok with him feeding it to his lizard alive? What do you mean a mantis eats its food head first? That isn't true. They eat whatever part is closest to their mouth first.


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## beckyl92

Rick said:


> Do you killl all of your mantids food beforehand? Would you be ok with him feeding it to his lizard alive? What do you mean a mantis eats its food head first? That isn't true. They eat whatever part is closest to their mouth first.


everytime i've watched a mantis eat its eaten it head first.


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## Peter Clausen

mantisfart2 said:


> can i ask a question? and can it be answered by peter not phil? I am assuming and correct me if i am wrong you hand fed the fish to your mantis? If the only intention was to not waste the feeder fish, and give your mantis a little more protein would it not have been kinder to feed the fish dead or at the very least considering how a mantis eats head first not tail first?


Dearest Mantisfart2,

Did I hand feed the fish to the mantis, you ask?

The skin on scale folks will be happy to know that I didn't technically hand feed the fish to the mantis. I used a pair of forceps because the water was fouled from a fish that had died (a meaningless death) a day earlier and I didn't want to put my nice clean fingers in it. For those scoring at home, we have fish=1 for 2, mantis=1 for 2. As you can see, it is currently a tie, but only because one fish and one mantis have fulfilled their destinies.

If you review my two prior posts you will see my several and "only" intentions.

Would it be kinder to feed the fish dead (head first), you ask?

I can say that yes, in your heart it would be kinder. However, the mantis will find palatability to be the same, as long as all parts are eaten. (Or I could be wrong for the following reason: You see, if it only eats half the fish, it might find one half more palatable than the other, but I wouldn't know without asking the mantis and it would take the sacrificing of two fish to answer the question because a mantis that is full on half of one fish will not soon enough eat the other half before it spoils). The fish won't care if it can't feel it. Myself, well, I don't like killing things. But my mantises sure seem to have a predeliction for it.

Head vs. tail feeding you ask?

Here's the way it went down: After numerous attempts to catch a fish in water with a pair of forceps I managed to grab it by the tail. Not from experience, but through hypothesis, I made a quick decision to accept the orientation of my capture for a fish would seem to wriggle more (thereby attracting the mantis) if held by tail than by head. I concede I may be wrong on that point as I've not had much experience fishing with forceps. I never caught a fly out of the air with chopsticks, either, but that's off topic. Now comes a very important part of the process that everybody who is preparing to feed a fish to a mantis will soon want to ask themselves. After the mantis grabs the fish, you must act quickly! As another person pointed out, they will often choose a beginning point for feeding in such a way as to seem random to a human. They may start at the tail, they may start in the middle or at the head. Further, they may begin somewhere only to feel the fish wriggling out of their grip. Through a series of grasping readjustments, they may find themselves feeding on an entirely different part of the fish. This is where each keeper will need to decide whether to pry the fish out of the mantis clutches and reposition it head first, or turn away in horror...or get out the video camera.

By the way, I checked and both of the usernames Mantisfart and Mantisfart1 are available again. I'd be happy to get that _pesce_ 2 off your username!


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## revmdn

Thank you Phil


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## cloud jaguar

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegal...ember-2009.html


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## revmdn

How uncivilized.


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## mantisfart2

Rick said:


> Do you killl all of your mantids food beforehand? Would you be ok with him feeding it to his lizard alive? What do you mean a mantis eats its food head first? That isn't true. They eat whatever part is closest to their mouth first.


Hi rick no i don't kill my mantis food before i feed them but i also would never feed living vertebrates to my mantis. In my opinion its wrong, but thats just my opinion, and am not going to try force them on any one. And in regards to this statement due to bad punctuation on my half i think i have confused you, here it is again punctuated

If the only intention was to not waste the feeder fish, and give your mantis a little more protein would it not have been kinder to feed the fish dead or at the very least considering how a mantis eats, head first not tail first?

sorry about that but we all make mistakes now and then, like spelling kill with 3 l's  

what i was trying to say was considering how a mantis eats its prey alive and in small bites would it not have been more humane to feed it head first rather than tail first, if i where to be eaten alive slowly bite by bite by bite i think as you would all agree no matter which side of the fence your on, head first would be a better way to go than toes first. Remember cruelty is a trait found only in humans in the natural world.


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## mantisfart2

Peter said:


> Dearest Mantisfart2,Did I hand feed the fish to the mantis, you ask?
> 
> The skin on scale folks will be happy to know that I didn't technically hand feed the fish to the mantis. I used a pair of forceps because the water was fouled from a fish that had died (a meaningless death) a day earlier and I didn't want to put my nice clean fingers in it. For those scoring at home, we have fish=1 for 2, mantis=1 for 2. As you can see, it is currently a tie, but only because one fish and one mantis have fulfilled their destinies.
> 
> If you review my two prior posts you will see my several and "only" intentions.
> 
> Would it be kinder to feed the fish dead, you ask?
> 
> I can say that yes, in your heart it would be kinder. However, the mantis will find palatability to be the same, as long as all parts are eaten. (Or I could be wrong for the following reason: You see, if it only eats half the fish, it might find one half more palatable than the other, but I wouldn't know without asking the mantis and it would take the sacrificing of two fish to answer the question because a mantis that is full on half of one fish will not soon enough eat the other half before it spoils). The fish won't care if it can't feel it. Myself, well, I don't like killing things. But my mantises sure seem to have a predeliction for it.
> 
> Head vs. tail feeding you ask?
> 
> Here's the way it went down: After numerous attempts to catch a fish in water with a pair of forceps I managed to grab it by the tail. Not from experience, but through hypothesis, I made a quick decision to accept the orientation of my capture for a fish would seem to wriggle more (thereby attracting the mantis) if held by tail than by head. I concede I may be wrong on that point as I've not had much experience fishing with forceps. I never caught a fly out of the air with chopsticks, either, but that's off topic. Now comes a very important part of the process that everybody who is preparing to feed a fish to a mantis will soon want to ask themselves. After the mantis grabs the fish, you must act quickly! As another person pointed out, they will often choose a beginning point for feeding in such a way as to seem random to a human. They may start at the tail, they may start in the middle or at the head. Further, they may begin somewhere only to feel the fish wriggling out of their grip. Through a series of grasping readjustments, they may find themselves feeding on an entirely different part of the fish. This is where each keeper will need to decide whether to pry the fish out of the mantis clutches and reposition it head first, or turn away in horror...or get out the video camera.
> 
> By the way, I checked and both of the usernames Mantisfart and Mantisfart1 are available again. I'd be happy to get that _pesce_ 2 off your username!


Dearest peter

From reading your reply or maybe its just your comedic writing style it seams you find amusement from feeding vertebrates to mantids, like i said in my reply to rick cruelty is a trait found only in humans so i am assuming you are one, whats confusing me is that in your next breath you say you don't like getting your hands dirty. These two traits are uncommon in people, maybe the C.I.A have missed a recruitment opportunity? In your reply you stump me again with this " I can say that yes, in your heart it would be kinder" making me think maybe you don't have one in which case i would pass on the C.I.A and head straight for holly wood in case they ever decide to remake The wizard of oz. you would make a great tin man, but maybe it would be only fair for the rest of the OK to feed live vertebrate crew to draw straw's for the scarecrow. But if is going too cause arguments you could just take Phil i think he's most qualified.

As for my name i would like to keep it if you don't mind, it was my first choice as its faster to type in by 2 keys than mantisfarttoo. If i log in every day which i do think of the time i would save over a year.


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## PhilinYuma

I don't think that I've ever given you much mind, son, but since you mentioned my name in two posts, I thought I'd say Hi.

I see that you list Katt as a friend on yr profile page, and no one who does that can be completely bad. I also see that you are a student of Disney children's movies. Over here, every student of Brit comic strips remembers Dan Dare, Pilot of the Future in the eponymous strip in _The Eagle_, and his comical batman, Digby, who was also from Wigan and shared yr vaguely anti American hostility (have you ever met anyone from the CIA?). I know Wigan from having lived just down the road (me mum was from Sheffield) but the town is justly famous over here, and I think that reading Orwell's _The Road to Wigan Pier_ is still a requirement for 8th graders. The last time I was there, in the eighties, it was still pretty much a post industrial slum, and someone commented that the attempt to gentrify the pier area on the canal was like "growing roses over an open sewer," but I'm sure that you live in one of the nicer spots.

I doubt that anyone here or in Europe, including readers of _The Telegraph_, has the slightest problem with your wish not to cause what you deem to be unnecessary suffering to "vertebrates". We may question your education on the subject, but certainly not your sincerity. But I, at least, wonder why you insult those of us who do not share your views in what has to be an attempt to cause us pain. Unfortunately, you are out gunned. As atheists, Peter and I are already damned to the h*ll of our choice for eternity, where, according to one Christian saint, our suffering will be one of the sources of pleasure for the blessed in heaven, so we're not likely to get very upset by the righteous indignation of Wigan.

Let me leave you with a few verses of a poem by one of our countrymen that you probably know by heart (I do, too, so there might be a wrong word here and there!)

The laws of God, the laws of man

He may keep that will and can

Not I: Let God and man decree

Laws for themselves and not for me.

.........

Please yourselves, say I, and they

Need only look the other way.

But no, they will not; they must still

Wrest their neighbor to their will,

And make me dance as they desire

With jail and gallows and hellfire

And how am I to face the odds

Of man's bedevilment and God's?


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## Opivy

What in Gods holy name are you blathering about?


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## PhilinYuma

Opivy said:


> What in Gods holy name are you blathering about?


Lol! Which Gods were you thinking of?!


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## Opivy

mind my punctuation, I've had a little too much sauce.

Was hoping to see if there were any other "Achievers" on here =)

Also, re-reading your post regarding INLAND EMPIRE I think I misunderstood. Noticed the "google" part and realized you probably haven't seen the movie hehe.

But really, in this thread I'm lost.


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## PhilinYuma

Opivy said:


> mind my punctuation, I've had a little too much sauce.Was hoping to see if there were any other "Achievers" on here =)
> 
> Also, re-reading your post regarding INLAND EMPIRE I think I misunderstood. Noticed the "google" part and realized you probably haven't seen the movie hehe.
> 
> But really, in this thread I'm lost.


If yr still able to type, you probably haven't had too much, yet.  

Achievers? A reference to Lynch's appearing on the Esquire list? If so, _nobody_ will get that reference, mate!!

_The Eagle_ magazine flourished in the 650's in England. It was aimed at young English lads (girls didn't count then :angry: ) edited (I think) by a Christian educator named Arthur Mee, editor of the _Children's Encyclopedia_. Dan Dare was the most popular and headline strip in the magazine and emphasized True British Christian Leadership (he was a commissioned officer, of course). His batman (military servant) Digby, came from Wigan and, though ignorant and mildly comical, was Loyal and Knew His Place. This kind of propaganda signaled the last whimpers of Britain as a colonial power.

No, you didn't misunderstand. I Googled the area in CA called "Inland Empire" but I've seen most of Lynch's movies, including I.E., though not the early collection of shorts. I guess that I would put Blue Velvet at the top of my own list. Oh yes, I seriously detested Eraserhead! lol! Is that still even a cult movie?

Mantisfart2 comes from an insignificant post industrial town (think of a scaled down Detroit) in the North of England, named Wigan. It might not be as well known in the US as I implied!

He believes in being kind to small vertebrates, but is mildly anti American without knowing anything about this country and believes that it is OK to insult people who don't agree with him. If you'd ever been to Wigan, you'd understand. There is no area in CA, including East LA, that comes anything near the grizzly horrors of his home town (though my last visit was nearly 30 yrs ago, just after he was born, and it might be a Garden City, now! ) _The Road to Wigan Pier_ was a book by the author of _1984_ dealing with the apalling conditions of the English poor.

Atheists don't have much to look forward to in the Hereafter. If we're right, we'll just disappear. If we are wrong, our suffering will delight those who have ascended to heaven. Given those two options, though, there is very little worse that you can threaten us with.

The poem was by a guy who lived in the early C20 (died in 1936), named A.E. Houseman. It is very easy to understand, and reflects my attitude to folks like Mantisfart2.

I am economizing, following my computer build, and bought 1.75L of an off brand of Canadian whiskey instead of Canadian Mist. It tastes pretty bad, so I'm trying to get through it as quickly as possible in order to get a bottle of the real stuff. Catch you tomorrow!  

Edit: Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving, one and all!


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## Opivy

Wow and a happy thanksgiving to you!

Maybe I have had too much.

I got lost around the "Blue Velvet" and "Mantis Fart" part.

I'm glad I didn't misunderstand! I will shoot you a PM sometime to chat - (I also consider Blue Velvet on the top of my list ; and how do you detest Eraserhead?!?!)

Haven't seen the shorts? You're missing out my friend. They got em' on a single DVD probably available on netflicks.

I'm going to read your summary of this thread tomorrow and then I'll chime in with something useful.


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## Rick

BeckyL said:


> everytime i've watched a mantis eat its eaten it head first.


I think you need to watch more often because it simply isn't true.


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## Rick

mantisfart2 said:


> like i said in my reply to rick cruelty is a trait found only in humans


Is it? Then what would you call it when my cat catches a mouse and torments it for hours on end after eating its tail and in the end never eating the mouse? Seems cruel to me.


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## revmdn

Blue Velvet is such a great movie.


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## DeadInTheBasement

i have often watched an owl slaughter dozens of my chickens only to tear theres heads off pretty much and go after another soon after..cruelty is found in nature and in my finger tips....but all is necessary

i left the dead chickens in a pile in the field for the crows to peck at


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## bassist

mantisfart2 said:


> Remember cruelty is a trait found only in humans in the natural world.


That's because we're the only thing (known to us ;D) on this planet that can perceive this idea.


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## C.way

sushi V2, have tried out feeding my long neck mantises with tadpole yesterday, it's yucky, but the mantises are all ok with it


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## idolomantis

My god.

I hope you do realize you're going to infuriate ALOT of people.


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## Katnapper

idolomantis said:


> My god.I hope you do realize you're going to infuriate ALOT of people.


Let's not get into this again....


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## PhilinYuma

Katnapper said:


> Let's not get into this again....


+1 !!!


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## ABbuggin

Katnapper said:


> Let's not get into this again....


Yes please.


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## Opivy

Wow, forgot about this stuff.

I bought my cat a mouse a few years back - All I can say is I still regret it. She tortured the heck out of that thing...


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## DeadInTheBasement

i added some some fiddler crabs to my brackish aquarium 3 days ago. they have since ate 3 of my fish and i have yet to take them out of my aquarium and probably wont  ....having crabs is more interesting than the fish anyways.....


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## kamakiri

Yeah, my invertebrate crayfish picked off a lot of my feeder guppies...And then there's the dragonfly nymphs too.


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