# Mantis emotions



## anthony2001a

Well, having talked about mantis intelligence, I'd like to bring up the idea of mantis emotions. Or more specifically, mantis behaviors that seem to show a rudimentary level of emotions. For example:

1) Excitement--I have seen mantids notice a prey animal and begin to open their mandibles and appear to "chew" in apparent anticipation of catching their prey. It's akin to a human's mouth watering in anticipation of a steak dinner.

2) Alertness--When a mantis spots a prey animal, it will suddenly go on alert, freezing and devoting full attention to the prey animal. Antennae will cease waving randomly and begin pointing towards the prey animal.

3) Pleasure--When consuming their prey, I've seen mantids happily swaying back and forth as they eat. Clearly, the action of eating offers some sort of reward for mantids, much as it does for humans. I would equate this swaying with a kind of pleasure being experienced.

4) Frustration/annoyance/anger--when various prey animals like fruitflies crawl onto a mantis, I've seen them swat the offending animal away and sometime the mantis will relocate to get to an area where it won't be walked on. It's like the mantis is annoyed at being bothered. I've seen mantids appear to be angry/frustrated by cages/clear plastic/glass where they bang against it and don't seem to understand why they can't get through it.

Obviously, I haven't seen things like sadness or empathy, which would be difficult to infer from mantid behaviors. Nevertheless, rudimentary emotions would certainly offer an advantage to a mantis, allowing it to be a more successful predator and encouraging it to catch prey to feed those emotions.

Anthony


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## OGIGA

Great observations! I notice the same things too.


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## Rick

I disagree on mantids having emotions. Most of these are just responses to the environment with many being instinct. Most animals do those things. I believe the swaying is to make the mantis appear to be a leaf or twig blowing in the wind. Part of camouflage.

Excitement: all animals get excited over food.

Alertness: When a mantis sees prey it must give it full attention and track it in order to catch it. If it doesn't eat it will die, therefore it must give food it's full attention.

Pleasureoubt insects experience any type of pleasure.

Frustration: Swatting or jerking is just a response to the feeling of something crawling on the mantis. I doubt they get frustrated.


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## AFK

i disagree. emotions aren't what drives a mantis to survive. it's instinct.

alertness - it's not an emotion. it's a heightened state of awareness.

pleasure - these mantises sway probably because during eating, the mantis is more focused on its food so to compensate during this period of vulnerability, the mantis sways to mimick swaying branches and leaves. the swaying blends the eating motions in.

frustration/anger/annoyance - it's much more likely that the mantis is just instinctively relocating or swatting. there is no reason to think there is emotion evolved. when a roomba moves to another location for more dirt to suck up, is it because it is feeling emotions?

from a logical point of view, *correlation alone does NOT imply causation.* _cum hoc ergo propter hoc_.


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## OGIGA

Probably "emotion" isn't the best word to describe the phenomenons. However, I don't know how to prove to disprove whether or not mantises experience emotions. By the way, why don't we also figure out a precise definition of "emotion" before saying too much more?


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## AFK

all living things by default act by instinct/reflex. unless given evidence, there is no reason to assume the affirmative (that there is something non-default, e.g. emotion).


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## OGIGA

Most of the plants I've seen don't seem to have reflexes. Some micro-organisms don't move on their own either.


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## AFK

no, they do have reflexes. when water comes in contact with roots, the roots by reflex absorb the water. the plants also convert sunlight into food when sunlight reaches the leaves and the leaves by reflex start photosynthesis. the same with micro-organisms - their bodily processes are done reflexively.

and even if that weren't true, you knew what my point is (and it also won't change the fact that my point is still true), regardless of whether all living things have reflexes.


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## skinnylegs

as oposed to plesure,when eating i have also noticed my mantids abdomen moving in and out more rapidly,but thats probably just digestion.


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## randyardvark

abdomen movement is to do with breathing, the air tubes that invertebrates use to breath (tracholoes i think) are located up the side of the abdoman, and the pumping motion causes oxygen inriched air to come into coantact with a kind of fluid which is then absorbed into the insects system, abdomon pumping is just their version of a dogs panting, i may be a bit iffy with the details, as i havnt done biology for a year but thats about it (dont forget hunting is a stenuous activity for a mantis)

im sure some one will care to elaborate...


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## Rick

> abdomen movement is to do with breathing, the air tubes that invertebrates use to breath (tracholoes i think) are located up the side of the abdoman, and the pumping motion causes oxygen inriched air to come into coantact with a kind of fluid which is then absorbed into the insects system, abdomon pumping is just their version of a dogs panting, i may be a bit iffy with the details, as i havnt done biology for a year but thats about it (dont forget hunting is a stenuous activity for a mantis)im sure some one will care to elaborate...


yep


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## sean

that is correct. insects have tubes all over their body through which oxygen diffuses. they are called spiracles. by pumping their abdomen.. they expel used air so the spiracles are low in oxgen, this increases the rate of diffusion so that more oxygen can be obtained at the time of feeding, which is a heightened time of activity for mantids.

as for mantid emotions... i dont think they have them... after all they are insects. they have behaviours that react to the environment to help them survive... e.g.swaying to help blend in, in vulnerable situations and reactive instincts when hunting. this runs true with the intelligence debate.

i must also raise the issue that people are misunderstanding their mantids behaviour because they are their pets. they WANT them to be intelligent and have emotions. mantids are intelligent because they are predators... all predators need greater brain function to outwit prey, but they arnt intelligent to the degree that they would recognise you. mantids can turn their heads, like no other insect, which makes us relate to them. but they are just an insect.... they have instincts to help them survive and reproduce... thats all.


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## bubforever

I don't know it's hard to tell. We can just ask it if it has any feelings, but we can't just assume that it doesn't. Though a lot of these emotions explained do seem plausable, it's more likely that they are more instinct than emotion.


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## sean

i think its all instinct. all of these 'mantid emotions' can be explained in instinct terms.


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## OGIGA

Now we really need to define instinct and emotion. I think AFK's definition of instinct is way too broad. I would opt that instinct has to do with some kind of nervous system. Otherwise, paper towels have instincts too. And would we argue that electronics (like a calculator) have instincts too?


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## bubforever

Still emotion can be mixed with instinct.


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## sean

i would define instinct as an inbuilt guide on how to survive. reflex to a stimulus plays a great part. they can be insticntive or conditioned (learnt). an example of an automatic response would be flinching away from something that is causing pain. an example of a conditioned response would be a mantis recognising a paticular food item as food and say a finger tip as a threat and not food. an example of inbuilt instinct would be swaying. (a nymph knows to sway without being taught to do it). the question i would raise would be what is the evolutionary value of emotions in a mantis? my response would be there is none.

they have feelings yes, (they feel pain,hot,cold,hunger etc), but no emotions... they dont feel sad.. or fall in love... lol.


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## OGIGA

Not that I believe that evolution actually happened (but let's not have a debate about that here), but what is the evolutionary value of emotions in anything? I can only imagine that emotions will hinder the survival of the fittest.

The swaying motion is still fascinating. Yes, people keep saying that they sway so that they blend into the leaves in the wind. But I don't think that mantises go, "Hey look, the leaves are moving so I will too." I know that because none of my mantises have been outside and they all sway.

Anyway, why do they sway? Do they move using a heart rather than muscles (like a spider) so that when they're excited their heart is more active?


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## bubforever

Just as an example. Fear is an emotion, when your scared your instinct tells you to run away, i have seen this in my mantis. Though i'm sure your right about the love or sadness.


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## Rick

> Not that I believe that evolution actually happened (but let's not have a debate about that here), but what is the evolutionary value of emotions in anything? I can only imagine that emotions will hinder the survival of the fittest.The swaying motion is still fascinating. Yes, people keep saying that they sway so that they blend into the leaves in the wind. But I don't think that mantises go, "Hey look, the leaves are moving so I will too." I know that because none of my mantises have been outside and they all sway.
> 
> Anyway, why do they sway? Do they move using a heart rather than muscles (like a spider) so that when they're excited their heart is more active?


We already answered that one. They sway to imitate a leaf or stick blowing in the wind. Mantids have large muscles at the attachment point of their legs. They know to sway by instinct. They don't have to ever have been outside to learn how.


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## OGIGA

> They sway to imitate a leaf or stick blowing in the wind.


Why do you think so? I'd like to see an answer better than, "It's their instinct." If that's really the only answer, I'm sure it can be digressed upon.


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## Rick

> They sway to imitate a leaf or stick blowing in the wind.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think so? I'd like to see an answer better than, "It's their instinct." If that's really the only answer, I'm sure it can be digressed upon.
Click to expand...

What else is it? That makes the most sense.


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## OGIGA

> They sway to imitate a leaf or stick blowing in the wind.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think so? I'd like to see an answer better than, "It's their instinct." If that's really the only answer, I'm sure it can be digressed upon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What else is it? That makes the most sense.
Click to expand...

I'll give an example. It's probably not true, but it's an example.

A mantis sways when it sees a prey and when it is eating because it is not focusing on balancing itself.


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## bubforever

that seems reasonable enough.


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## sean

> Not that I believe that evolution actually happened (but let's not have a debate about that here), but what is the evolutionary value of emotions in anything? I can only imagine that emotions will hinder the survival of the fittest.


thats not entirely true. emotions in humans help continuation of the species. for example 'love' in humans (in the past at least), helps a couple stay together whilst raising a child, contributing both thier efforts in protecting and caring for it (and thier genes)... giving the child a much greater chance of survival at a time when food would have been hard to come by... (hunted or found...which would take up a great deal of time). therefore emotions can aid survival.


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## colddigger

> I disagree on mantids having emotions. Most of these are just responses to the environment with many being instinct. Most animals do those things. I believe the swaying is to make the mantis appear to be a leaf or twig blowing in the wind. Part of camouflage.Excitement: all animals get excited over food.
> 
> Alertness: When a mantis sees prey it must give it full attention and track it in order to catch it. If it doesn't eat it will die, therefore it must give food it's full attention.
> 
> Pleasureoubt insects experience any type of pleasure.
> 
> Frustration: Swatting or jerking is just a response to the feeling of something crawling on the mantis. I doubt they get frustrated.


These answers do make sense, but they don't really disprove mantid emotions. just because all animals get excited over food doesn't mean it isn't an emotion. The excitement and alertness could be seen as some form of desire and insects probably have "pleasure" during breeding or else their survival would stay at top and males would stay away from the much larger females.


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## OGIGA

> Not that I believe that evolution actually happened (but let's not have a debate about that here), but what is the evolutionary value of emotions in anything? I can only imagine that emotions will hinder the survival of the fittest.
> 
> 
> 
> thats not entirely true. emotions in humans help continuation of the species. for example 'love' in humans (in the past at least), helps a couple stay together whilst raising a child, contributing both thier efforts in protecting and caring for it (and thier genes)... giving the child a much greater chance of survival at a time when food would have been hard to come by... (hunted or found...which would take up a great deal of time). therefore emotions can aid survival.
Click to expand...

Well, think of it this way: If the parents have no love, then I would think only the strongest children will survive. For example, a man rapes a woman and the woman dumps the child after birth. Of course, we'll have tons of dead babies, but those who survive must be stronger than those who died. When we're talking about microevolution, isn't that what we're talking about?


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## Rick

> I disagree on mantids having emotions. Most of these are just responses to the environment with many being instinct. Most animals do those things. I believe the swaying is to make the mantis appear to be a leaf or twig blowing in the wind. Part of camouflage.Excitement: all animals get excited over food.
> 
> Alertness: When a mantis sees prey it must give it full attention and track it in order to catch it. If it doesn't eat it will die, therefore it must give food it's full attention.
> 
> Pleasureoubt insects experience any type of pleasure.
> 
> Frustration: Swatting or jerking is just a response to the feeling of something crawling on the mantis. I doubt they get frustrated.
> 
> 
> 
> These answers do make sense, but they don't really disprove mantid emotions. just because all animals get excited over food doesn't mean it isn't an emotion. The excitement and alertness could be seen as some form of desire and insects probably have "pleasure" during breeding or else their survival would stay at top and males would stay away from the much larger females.
Click to expand...

I can assure you insects don't breed for pleasure. The desire to breed to further the species is very strong in many species. Without it they would die out. We can't forget we're talking about INSECTS here. As much as we like to think they are intelligent and have human like emotions, they don't.


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## sean

> Not that I believe that evolution actually happened (but let's not have a debate about that here), but what is the evolutionary value of emotions in anything? I can only imagine that emotions will hinder the survival of the fittest.
> 
> 
> 
> thats not entirely true. emotions in humans help continuation of the species. for example 'love' in humans (in the past at least), helps a couple stay together whilst raising a child, contributing both thier efforts in protecting and caring for it (and thier genes)... giving the child a much greater chance of survival at a time when food would have been hard to come by... (hunted or found...which would take up a great deal of time). therefore emotions can aid survival.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, think of it this way: If the parents have no love, then I would think only the strongest children will survive. For example, a man rapes a woman and the woman dumps the child after birth. Of course, we'll have tons of dead babies, but those who survive must be stronger than those who died. When we're talking about microevolution, isn't that what we're talking about?
Click to expand...

if a child was dumped it would die no matter how strong it was... a human child needs care. of course children can be raised by one parent or parents that dont love each other, i was just stating that in the past, two parents providing the child with care was better than one, and the emotion love provided this. this is how the emotion could have come to be. (it doesnt matter nowadays but it would have dramatically improved the chances of survival then).

anyway, the true debate here is about emotions in mantids.... i dont think they do but everyone has their opinion. (thats what makes these forums great to be part of)! i look forward to seeing more opinions!

cheers, sean


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## AFK

as i've already said, it is fundamental logic that the burden of proof is on the affirmative (proving that mantises have emotions). until we have proof, it is totally irrational to even suspect mantises to have emotions.

none of the evidence presented is even remotely convincing. it's all explained by instinct/reflex, e.g. mantis swaying because it's not focusing on balancing itself? that itself is so out of character for a mantis that it's quite an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. try blowing on a mantis the next time it sways and see if it tips over. :lol:


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## Peekaboo

> Now we really need to define instinct and emotion. I think AFK's definition of instinct is way too broad. I would opt that instinct has to do with some kind of nervous system. Otherwise, paper towels have instincts too. And would we argue that electronics (like a calculator) have instincts too?


I'm not understanding your argument here .... Exactly how do paper towels and calculators have instincts?

Here are the dictionary definitions of both words, as they apply to our discussions:

instinct - a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason

emotion - a conscious mental reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling usually directed toward a specific object and typically accompanied by physiological and behavioral changes in the body

Personally, I feel that all the mantis behaviour described thus far, falls under the category of instinct.


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## hibiscusmile

Seems I am late again, sorry but if dictionary meaning is true, then emotion must play a part, Fear, would mean moving away, running or hiding. The swaying part, well I probably sway when I have something good to eat too! lol


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## anthony2001a

> Now we really need to define instinct and emotion. I think AFK's definition of instinct is way too broad. I would opt that instinct has to do with some kind of nervous system. Otherwise, paper towels have instincts too. And would we argue that electronics (like a calculator) have instincts too?





> I'm not understanding your argument here .... Exactly how do paper towels and calculators have instincts?Here are the dictionary definitions of both words, as they apply to our discussions:
> 
> instinct - a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason
> 
> emotion - a conscious mental reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling usually directed toward a specific object and typically accompanied by physiological and behavioral changes in the body
> 
> Personally, I feel that all the mantis behaviour described thus far, falls under the category of instinct.


You make it sound like instincts and emotions are mutually exclusive, but that may not necessarily be true. Very complex behaviors can be instinctive, for example the instinctive behavior a spider exihibits in spinning a complex web. Some instinctive courting rituals of animals are quite complex. Likewise, animals can exhibit emotions. Does anyone really doubt that when your favorite dog sees you and wags his/her tail and begins barking excitedly that your favorite dog is happy?

Certainly, some emotions are instinctive to humans, like fear or excitement. The definition you gave does not match most definitions of emotion, as your definition talks about conscious reactions. Most definitions of emotion involve spontaneous reactions, quite a distinctive definition from "feelings." Feelings can involve a conscious and sub-conscious interpretation of emotional and physiological states to reach a label.

Some "basic" emotions for humans, which appear to be universal (i.e. people from isolated New Guinea tribes can recognize emotions from a totally different culture) are:

anger

fear

sadness

happiness

disgust

Moreover, there's evidence for the belief that these basic emotions may well be innate or, to use a term that's been used a lot in this thread, an instinct.

Now, if emotions can be innate, there's no specific reason to limit it to humans. In fact, most creatures certainly seem to experience some very basic emotions like fear or excitement (like when finding food). These would seem to be evolutionary advantageous. A mantis which doesn't exhibit fear when encountering a predator might not flee when appropriate or might not react defensively, for example.

Point being: emotions can be instinctive. Instinctive behavior does not exclude emotion.

Anthony


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## OGIGA

Thanks Anthony. You make a good point. I gave up trying to make people see what kind of arguments they were making, but maybe I'll reconsider.

Anyway, I think Peekaboo misunderstood something. Either Peekaboo didn't read my post or read it too fast because that's not _my_ argument. I wrote what you'll get if you apply AFK's idea of instinct.

Finally, sean, please reconsider parents dumping babies. Not all babies will die, even if 999/1000 do. Do all other animals die if nothing ever takes care of them? (How about a mantis?)


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## AFK

there is no reason to think that mantises have emotions. end of story, seriously. those are some cool points above, but they don't in any way imply that mantises have emotions. some people seem to be thinking that we're saying that mantises don't have emotions because emotions are unnatural. that is NOT our point, and even if so, it still doesn't prove anything.

*again, to ignore the fundamental discipline that the burden is on the affirmative is just ABSOLUTELY POOR SCIENCE.* this kind of emotionally driven, wishful-thinking based science should be discouraged at all costs.


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## sean

i agree with afk. ogiga, if a human baby was dumped at birth it would die (100% of the time, unless found by an adoptive parent). a human baby needs care. it needs to be fed and kept safe, warm etc. a mantis like many other animals are born already capable of looking after themselves from day 1. for example a newly hatched nymph has everything it needs to catch food and feed itself, a newborn baby cannot find its own milk.. lol. i understand where you are coming from, in that you are saying some animals are born capable of surviving without parental care.and you are right. but a human child is not one of those.

i do not think mantids have emotions however the point raised about them having fear and raising into a threat display is a good one. one that i cannot answer. fear is an emotion. however, how do we know that when a mantis seems afraid that it is actually feeling fear, or just going through a series of inbuilt behaviours to avoid being killed? the answer is we dont know. this comes back to afk's point. without solid scientifc proof nothing can be assumed from simple observation, without running the risk that our interpretation of the behaviour results in us perceiving results that we want to find, but might not and probably do not exsist.


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## anthony2001a

> there is no reason to think that mantises have emotions. end of story, seriously. those are some cool points above, but they don't in any way imply that mantises have emotions. some people seem to be thinking that we're saying that mantises don't have emotions because emotions are unnatural. that is NOT our point, and even if so, it still doesn't prove anything.*again, to ignore the fundamental discipline that the burden is on the affirmative is just ABSOLUTELY POOR SCIENCE.* this kind of emotionally driven, wishful-thinking based science should be discouraged at all costs.


Thankfully, scientists don't think like you. Instead, they formulate testable hypotheses and conduct observation and tests, rather than presume as you do that observations of mantis behavior are driven by emotions and wishful thinking.

"There's no reason to think that mantises have emotions." So, observations of behavior which may indicate things like fear or excitement or whatever are worthless? I guess Newton should have ignored the apple falling from the tree, because heck, there's no reason to think of gravity.

Why don't you come up with a way to test whether such emotions exist or not, instead of presuming we're all emotionally overwrought wishful thinkers? ;-)

Anthony


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## AFK

no offense, but your post above alone demonstrates your lack of reading comprehension skills, thus you are unfit for any serious debate that involves critical thinking. you are putting crazy words in what i'm saying, and totally totally not understanding my points. if you're doing that deliberately, that is slander.



> Thankfully, scientists don't think like you. Instead, they formulate testable hypotheses and conduct observation and tests, rather than presume as you do that observations of mantis behavior are driven by emotions and wishful thinking.


1. no where did i say that mantis observations are driven emotions and wishful thinking.

2. scientists love me. they formulate testable hypothesis ALL BECAUSE of the aforementioned fundamental discipline - that the burden of proof is on the affirmative. hypothesis = affirmative. testing of the hypothesis = burden of proof. sounds to me that your rebuttal is the one that is purely emotionally, not logically, driven...or that you're just not capable of critical thinking.



> "There's no reason to think that mantises have emotions." So, observations of behavior which may indicate things like fear or excitement or whatever are worthless? I guess Newton should have ignored the apple falling from the tree, because heck, there's no reason to think of gravity.


3. no one has yet posted any observations that indicate emotions. NO ONE. it's YOUR burden to prove that whatever observations were posted are indicative of emotions.

4. you dummy, even newton followed the same fundamental discipline (and by the way, it's not really a stated rule, but it's really COMMON SENSE, but it seems like i have to state it here). the apple fell, it gave him the idea about gravity, but he knew he couldn't say there is gravity (the affirmative here) until he provided actual proof (the burden).



> Why don't you come up with a way to test whether such emotions exist or not, instead of presuming we're all emotionally overwrought wishful thinkers?


5. dude, numerous scientists have been documenting tests for emotions in animals forever. have you ever even took a class in biology or are you just pretending you know what you're talking about?

the only reason why i'm so flabbergasted by all this is because we're a mantid forum, where we're supposed to be intelligent, scientific keepers of a very specific kind of insect. this kind of poor science is frankly appalling. i expect better from a scientifically-minded community. if you're not fit for critical thinking, please don't pretend you are.


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## Rob Byatt

I completely agree with what AFK says; experiments are needed to give any credibility to this theory.

HOWEVER, there needs to be experiments to DISPROVE that mantids have any emotions. So I'm sorry, but dismissing a theory without prove is also bad science :wink:

Rob.


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## AFK

> I completely agree with what AFK says; experiments are needed to give any credibility to this theory. HOWEVER, there needs to be experiments to DISPROVE that mantids have any emotions. So I'm sorry, but dismissing a theory without prove is also bad science :wink:
> 
> Rob.


Incorrect. Disproving that mantids have emotions is *NOT* the affirmative.That's like saying that dismissing the theory that I have an invisible cat on my sofa at the moment is bad science. No, actually, it is GOOD SCIENCE. How do I disprove that I don't have an invisible cat on my sofa? Not only you really can't, but it's SILLY to place the burden on the non-affirmative.

Make sure you really 100% understand this fundamental discipline of the relationship between the affirmative and burden of proof before speaking about it.


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## Rob Byatt

You can't compare this to an invisible cat; that is a completely different subject. Not all scientific experiments give the results we want, but a negative result is still a good one.

I am not making a comment on whether or not mantids do have emotions, just mearly on what you are calling good scientific practice.

Can I ask, to what level of academia are you qualified to make these statements ?

I remember some posts by yourself a while ago that said you were an expert on invertebrates.

Cheers, Rob.


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## Ian

Lets keep this calm peoples...


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## skinnylegs

note to ian &amp; rick:i think one of you should delete this before death-threats start flying around :wink:


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## Rick

Game Over


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