# All of a sudden..



## keolablue (Sep 12, 2009)

Just now, I found a pretty brown female outside.. And just for the heck of it, I introduced my smaller green male.. And presto! LOL

My question is.. Are they even the same species? I think that the green dude is Chinese.. I don't know..

So do you think I'll have any luck?

They haven't stopped yet, so do you have any quick newbie advice like... how long will this take? How I can protect Mr. Dude?


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## ABbuggin (Sep 12, 2009)

I don't recognize the species, but look like it may be in the Stagmomantis genus. Are you in the US?


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## keolablue (Sep 12, 2009)

US, Southern California..

They're bad pictures- I took them asap..

She took some dog food from me and she's eating it.. Do you think she still might attack..?


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## sbugir (Sep 13, 2009)

Males definitely european, can you take an underside shot of the female, she's either limbata, s califorinica, or european. Def not chinese, if you can get an under shot that'd be fantastic


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## a1_collection (Sep 13, 2009)

Looks like a good candidate for Limbata to me.


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## keolablue (Sep 13, 2009)

So if they're a different species, is this mating pointless?

They can't make little hybrids?

hahaa


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 13, 2009)

keolablue said:


> So if they're a different species, is this mating pointless?They can't make little hybrids?
> 
> hahaa


No, no hybrids! But for once I not going to give the S. limbata vote and say that the happy couple are both European mantids, [iris oratorio. I think that leminwinks, like me, would like to see the female's underside to see if there is a red spot on the next to last abdominal segment] I'm leaving this nonsense intact to show what can happen to you when you get old., if you don't take yr medication regularly. The European mantis is still, as it has always been, Mantis religiosa, and it has no red spots on its abdomen!


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## keolablue (Sep 13, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> No, no hybrids! But for once I not going to give the S. limbata vote and say that the happy couple are both European mantids, Iris oratorio. I think that leminwinks, like me, would like to see the female's underside to see if there is a red spot on the next to last abdominal segment. If so, she's European for sure!


It's too dark in my room to take photos now.. I'll try to take some in the morning.

But I just looked and I don't see any red spots...


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 13, 2009)

keolablue said:


> It's too dark in my room to take photos now.. I'll try to take some in the morning. But I just looked and I don't see any red spots...


My apologies for a senior moment, keolablue, I have corrected my earlier statement. No red spot on the European mantis!


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## keolablue (Sep 13, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> My apologies for a senior moment, keolablue, I have corrected my earlier statement. No red spot on the European mantis!


Oh, so she _is_ European?

For anyone who disagrees, I just want to know if they're the same. haha


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2009)

keolablue said:


> Oh, so she _is_ European?For anyone who disagrees, I just want to know if they're the same. haha


Neither of those are European or chinese. They appear to be stagmomantis and do appear to be the same species.

The markings on the females front legs are strange though.


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## sbugir (Sep 13, 2009)

lemmiwinks said:


> Males definitely european, can you take an underside shot of the female, she's either limbata, s califorinica, or european. Def not chinese, if you can get an under shot that'd be fantastic  Edit: I meant a shot in between the arms to see the black eyespot/white thingy


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2009)

lemmiwinks said:


> Males definitely european, can you take an underside shot of the female, she's either limbata, s califorinica, or european. Def not chinese, if you can get an under shot that'd be fantastic


I do not believe either of those are european. Stagmomantis.


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## sbugir (Sep 13, 2009)

Rick said:


> I do not believe either of those are european. Stagmomantis.


You're probably right Rick but conformation is always nice  to me it doesn't look like a stag Carolina or cali, but j haven't seen many so I'm probably wrong.


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2009)

lemmiwinks said:


> You're probably right Rick but conformation is always nice  to me it doesn't look like a stag Carolina or cali, but j haven't seen many so I'm probably wrong.


I am 110% the female is stagmomantis assuming it is wild caught in the US. THe male appears the same. I know they are not european, they look nothing like them.


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## sbugir (Sep 13, 2009)

Rick said:


> I am 110% the female is stagmomantis assuming it is wild caught in the US. THe male appears the same. I know they are not european, they look nothing like them.


Uh oh, then what's my male!?! He looks exactly like that!


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## keolablue (Sep 13, 2009)

They finally separated now. lol.

Hope these photos are good enough..

Mr. Dude got away unharmed. He really ran. It was funny.


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2009)

They are one of the stagmomantis species. What is your location? The female looks like s. limbata but the black marks on the front legs are new to me.


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## d17oug18 (Sep 13, 2009)

none of my limbata females had wings that long, they all ended about half way, the male looks just like my last S limbata, the female(if i had to guess) is no limbata just because her wings are extremely long.


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2009)

d17oug18 said:


> none of my limbata females had wings that long, they all ended about half way, the male looks just like my last S limbata, the female(if i had to guess) is no limbata just because her wings are extremely long.


Ya know what Doug I never noticed the wings. You are right on that. They are longer than they should be. That along with the black marks on the front legs really have me wondering!


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## d17oug18 (Sep 13, 2009)

maybe its a chamo chinese? my bro has one that looks similar to that one and i just told him it was a chinese female lol


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## MantidLord (Sep 13, 2009)

I agree with rick that its a stagmomantis sp. I've seen those markings on limbata nymphs but never on a female, and the wings are a little long. Definitely not M. religiosa nor I. oratoria. Good luck.


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## Ntsees (Sep 14, 2009)

In my opinion, both of them are _Stagmomantis limbata_. I say both are the same species because (in addition they look like and males and females of _Stagmomantis limbata_) the male was able to connect with the female. In my limited experience, mantids of different species are not able to make the connection (I want do know those that can if it's even possible). It's like how the wrong key won't be able to open the door. The female looks like her wings are long only because she hasn't had anything to eat. Feed her a lot and I'm certain that her abdomen will stretch (as well as fatten) so that she'll look more like the typical short-winged females for that species. Keep us all updated.


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## d17oug18 (Sep 14, 2009)

naw man, there are A LOT of species that can connect, my male S. Limbata connected to a S. carolina, and ive heard of other species that have connected, it is possible and it CAN happen. Ive had limbatas and there wings are never that long, and if she is that small, wouldnt let a male mate (easily) that early.(meaning she just shed)


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## keolablue (Sep 14, 2009)

Is it possible for mating to occur more than once if the female already had contact and may already be fertilized?

Are there clear ways to tell if she is fertilized afterward?


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## kamakiri (Sep 14, 2009)

keolablue said:


> Is it possible for mating to occur more than once if the female already had contact and may already be fertilized?Are there clear ways to tell if she is fertilized afterward?


Yes.

No. But after several hours of mating and the male leaving on his own...She is most likely fertilized.

And those two are pretty clearly _S. limbata_ everybody. I don't see what all the confusion is!

Feed the girl well! She doesn't look like she's had much to eat.


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## Rick (Sep 14, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Yes.No. But after several hours of mating and the male leaving on his own...She is most likely fertilized.
> 
> And those two are pretty clearly _S. limbata_ everybody. I don't see what all the confusion is!
> 
> Feed the girl well! She doesn't look like she's had much to eat.


No confusion here. I have maintained that is what they are however the female does have long wings and marks on the front legs. I do get tired of people swearing it is something it obviously isn't.


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## ABbuggin (Sep 14, 2009)

I think I know what it is.  I have been doing some internet browsing trying to figure it out and I believe that it is a _Stagmomantis, californica_.

Check this link out (3 pics), I know the wings are shorter, but look at the coloration of the wings, the coloration of the arms etc. We know that wing size can vary amongst mantids (my _Creobroter, nebulosa_ males' wings varied a lot) so that may not be a vital identification mark. Let me know what you guys think, but it is the closest thing I've found.

http://bugguide.net/node/view/84658

Edit: Found another pic (still has short wings, but the coloration is the same)

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...t%3D18%26um%3D1


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## Ntsees (Sep 14, 2009)

d17oug18 said:


> naw man, there are A LOT of species that can connect, my male S. Limbata connected to a S. carolina, and ive heard of other species that have connected, it is possible and it CAN happen. Ive had limbatas and there wings are never that long, and if she is that small, wouldnt let a male mate (easily) that early.(meaning she just shed)


Nice. Thanks! I had no idea only because I'm so limited to the species within my area. So it is possible, interesting!


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## Ntsees (Sep 14, 2009)

ABbuggin said:


> I think I know what it is.  I have been doing some internet browsing trying to figure it out and I believe that it is a _Stagmomantis, californica_. Check this link out (3 pics), I know the wings are shorter, but look at the coloration of the wings, the coloration of the arms etc. We know that wing size can vary amongst mantids (my _Creobroter, nebulosa_ males' wings varied a lot) so that may not be a vital identification mark. Let me know what you guys think, but it is the closest thing I've found.
> 
> http://bugguide.net/node/view/84658


I don't know. There haven't been enough info/pictures about _Stagmomantis californica _for me to say that the mantid could be it.


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## ABbuggin (Sep 14, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> I don't know. There haven't been enough info/pictures about _Stagmomantis californica _for me to say that the mantid could be it.


That's exactly what I ran into, only like 3 or 4 pages on google. &lt;_&lt; I did search the other Stagmomantis species, and these pics match the "mystery" the best.

Keolablue..... Could you feed the female until she is fat? I would think her wings would be shorter than her abdomen when she is full.


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## cloud jaguar (Sep 14, 2009)

My vote goes to S. Limbata based on the coloration of both and the shape of their prothorax - I have a nearly identical colored female.

However, as Doug and Rick have discussed, the wings do seem somewhat long for an S. Limbata female which is weird  Usually the wings rest on the saddle only a bit past 1/2 way down the back!


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## Rick (Sep 14, 2009)

I think I agree with Andrew though I admit I have no experience with that species.


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## kamakiri (Sep 14, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> I don't know. There haven't been enough info/pictures about _Stagmomantis californica _for me to say that the mantid could be it.


Agree here. While I *thought* I had a good indicator of _S. limbata_ vs. _S. californica_ with the female yellow vs. dark hind wings...I'm not so sure now.

Perhaps it is that these two are:

A.) genetically the same, but have two names.

B.) closely related enough to cross-breed with no ill-effect.

C.) mis-identified due to presence of _limbata_ in California.

The gray female that I recently caught has *dark/clear hindwings*...While outwardly she looks like limbata to me with the arm patterns and all...*She might simply be californica*...

EDIT: B ) without the space is B) !

EDIT 2: The gray female does not have dark speckled wings as I thought I saw from under the forewings. They are yellowish/clear speckled. Pretty sure that makes her _limbata_ too.


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## kamakiri (Sep 14, 2009)

Okay here we go:

From this page

both images below copyright Michael R. Maxwell.

_S. californica_:

Solid red to black hind wing and *black marking on first few tergites*:







_S. limbata_:

While this is a yellow sample, the speckling/patterning is the differentiator:

I'll put up the speckling from my gray _limbata_ tonight.


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## Ntsees (Sep 14, 2009)

Nice find Kamakiri! Those wing pictures do show the difference between a californica and a limbata. Now, one more step: can someone who currently has the carolina species look to see if the carolina lack/has the dark horizontal bands on the abdominal tergites as well as wing coloration? Thanks.

Also, I think I found an error to one of the pictures. The last picture (1st column third picture down) is in no way a Carolina mantid. It looks more like an _Iris oratoria _to me.


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## kamakiri (Sep 14, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> Nice find Kamakiri! Those wing pictures do show the difference between a californica and a limbata. Now, one more step: can someone who currently has the carolina species look to see if the carolina lack/has the dark horizontal bands on the abdominal tergites as well as wing coloration? Thanks.Also, I think I found an error to one of the pictures. The last picture (1st column third picture down) is in no way a Carolina mantid. It looks more like an _Iris oratoria _to me.


Agreed on that _I. oratoria_ picture/error. This is when I hate the internet...misinformation.


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## Rick (Sep 14, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Agreed on that _I. oratoria_ picture/error. This is when I hate the internet...misinformation.


Here is a pic of a green s. carolina. It looks basically the same as the limbata. Those two are so close that I can't really know the difference.


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## Ntsees (Sep 14, 2009)

Yes! Thanks Rick. I think you mentioned in another post that the carolina has the black speck on the forewing whereas the limbata doesn't (whatever the color of the mantid may be, the "speck" won't be black). Until proven wrong (if I'm wrong, tell me because the most important thing for me is the TRUTH), I'm going to use that physical description (the black speck) as the key to distinguishing carolina from limbata (along with the fact the the abdomen of the limbata appears more circular when viewed from top/bottom). From many past searches, all three have the banded tibia and so that cannot be used to differentiate between them.

This is enough evidence for me. _Stagmomantis californica _ for me now will be distinguishable with the red/purple/black underwing since the other related species (limbata and carolina) do not have it. I don't know about you guys, but this forum has just solved my most biggest and puzzling question: How to distinguish the californica from the other related species(limbata and carolina). WHOOOOHOOOOO!!!


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## kamakiri (Sep 15, 2009)

One more *possible* differentiator...I've noticed that the adult _S. limbata_ have blue labrum "upper lip" mouthpart. Can anyone else check their carolinas for the blue lip?


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 15, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> One more *possible* differentiator...I've noticed that the adult _S. limbata_ have blue labrum "upper lip" mouthpart. Can anyone else check their carolinas for the blue lip?


Yeah. I've seen that on S. limbata, too.

Keolablue: Would you tell us where you live, luv? It is very important when identifying insects. If you live in CA, there is a chance that it is S. californica. The females of this species do have stripes on their raptorial arms in some color morphs, including brown. I would also point out that the length of the female's wings is not a guaranteed indicator of species. There is a strain of S. limbata in this area in which the females' wings extend almost to the tip of the abdomen. I have one currently, so the wing length in the female does not rule out a Stagmomantis species.

Ain't this fun?


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## planetq (Sep 15, 2009)

Seems like the easiest way to make a definite identification is for keolablue to just lift up the girl's skirt and check what color her underwear is.  

Black = californica.


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## PhilinYuma (Sep 15, 2009)

calarts_security said:


> Seems like the easiest way to make a definite identification is for keolablue to just lift up the girl's skirt and check what color her underwear is.  Black = californica.


Last time I tried that, though, I got my face slapped.


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## Rick (Sep 15, 2009)

It appears in some pics that s. limbata has the wing spot too.


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## Ntsees (Sep 15, 2009)

Rick said:


> It appears in some pics that s. limbata has the wing spot too.


If you were referring to an s. limbata with a black wing spot on the outer wing, can you show me a picture of it (or lead me to where I can find it)? If you were talking about something else, then nevermind.


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## Rick (Sep 15, 2009)

Seventh pic in the link posted earlier. The spot is white though which may be another difference.

http://tolweb.org/images/Stagmomantis/12786


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## Ntsees (Sep 15, 2009)

Rick said:


> Seventh pic in the link posted earlier. The spot is white though which may be another difference. http://tolweb.org/images/Stagmomantis/12786


Yeah that's true. But I'm making the assumption that those with a black speck are carolinas because from what I see so far, carolina's that are brown to green to what ever color will still have the black speck. This doesn't appear to be the case for limbatas. If the speck isn't black (and I mean a good portion the the speck), then it's a limbata to me. If it gets too confusing there, then I go to my other method - the more circular abdomen when viewed from above/below will be the limbata.


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## Rick (Sep 15, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> Yeah that's true. But I'm making the assumption that those with a black speck are carolinas because from what I see so far, carolina's that are brown to green to what ever color will still have the black speck. This doesn't appear to be the case for limbatas. If the speck isn't black (and I mean a good portion the the speck), then it's a limbata to me. If it gets too confusing there, then I go to my other method - the more circular abdomen when viewed from above/below will be the limbata.


I've had limbata with no speck. I dont' think the shape of the abdomen from above would be reliable since the size of it could distort the shape.


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## Ntsees (Sep 15, 2009)

Rick said:


> I've had limbata with no speck. I dont' think the shape of the abdomen from above would be reliable since the size of it could distort the shape.


A limbata with no speck at all? Interesting. About the shape of the abdomen, it was something I made up when I was dealing with the limbatas because that's what I saw in comparison to other mantids (the more rounded abdomen is also seen in the reflection in one of the pictures in this topic). I'm aware that there are variations within the limbatas as well as any other mantid species and so I still need more experience with them to learn the variations they can have.


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## Rick (Sep 15, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> A limbata with no speck at all? Interesting.


The pics were posted in the limbata vs. carolina thread. I don't recall a spot but will check again.


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## keolablue (Sep 16, 2009)

ABbuggin said:


> I think I know what it is.  I have been doing some internet browsing trying to figure it out and I believe that it is a _Stagmomantis, californica_. Check this link out (3 pics), I know the wings are shorter, but look at the coloration of the wings, the coloration of the arms etc. We know that wing size can vary amongst mantids (my _Creobroter, nebulosa_ males' wings varied a lot) so that may not be a vital identification mark. Let me know what you guys think, but it is the closest thing I've found.
> 
> http://bugguide.net/node/view/84658
> 
> ...


This looks just like her. She is likely a California girl. The armbands and dark legs that she has could probably be excused as a variation..

Don't worry, I have been feeding Miss California whatever I can find. She's a pig.

So my green male is limbata, correct?

_So if both male and female are at least 'stagomantis'.. will I be expecting an ooth?_


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## massaman (Sep 16, 2009)

prob not or if you get one its going to be dol

dol=dead ooth laid!

meaning not fertile


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## kamakiri (Sep 16, 2009)

keolablue said:


> This looks just like her. She is likely a California girl. The armbands and dark legs that she has could probably be excused as a variation..Don't worry, I have been feeding Miss California whatever I can find. She's a pig.
> 
> So my green male is limbata, correct?
> 
> _So if both male and female are at least 'stagomantis'.. will I be expecting an ooth?_


Er...I think those are mis-identified in those two pics...but regardless, If you check her hind-wings and they are yellow/clear speckled...then she should be limbata.

Keep feeding and misting her and I'll bet that you'll have a fertile ooth in a few weeks.

This is a limbata I had that looks just like yours:


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## keolablue (Oct 5, 2009)

Update!

Shortly after this mating, I found a green female! She was a bit more ferocious so the male got his head ripped off despite my efforts. Then his little body subsequently began to mate with her. It was creepy.

The brown (apparently still unidentified) female is laying an ooth right now. I'm excited. Hehhee

It is white/gray... Here's a pic. I'll take more later..

(Might the ooth finally solve the mystery of the species?)






So it is true that females die shortly after laying an ooth? What can I expect?


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## kamakiri (Oct 5, 2009)

keolablue said:


> Update! Shortly after this mating, I found a green female! She was a bit more ferocious so the male got his head ripped off despite my efforts. Then his little body subsequently began to mate with her. It was creepy.
> 
> The brown (apparently still unidentified) female is laying an ooth right now. I'm excited. Hehhee
> 
> ...


Pretty sure that they are all limbatas. A picture of the finished ooth would also help confirm. But if you want to be 100% certain, the female will be limbata if she does not have black markings on her back between the segments and dark purple-red hind wings. If they are yellow speckled or yellow speckled with a brown border on the yellow detail, that is also limbata.

Congrats on the ooth. If you keep it inside, you'll have hatchlings in about 8-9 weeks depending on the temp in your house. Make sure you have the space and food for them.

And don't worry about her dying just yet. :lol: Keep her well fed and you should have another ooth in about a month.


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## keolablue (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks!

More photos:






I fed her asap! She's skinny again.


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## kamakiri (Oct 5, 2009)

That ooth definitely looks limbata, and in the second shot above, I can see her blue 'lip' labum.

And I think it's good to feed after they lay. They can often eat a few in a row if you let them.

Congrats!

Edit: Just don't leave crix in with a fresh ooth!


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## MantidLord (Oct 5, 2009)

kamakiri said:


> Edit: Just don't leave crix in with a fresh ooth!


+1. And yeah, I feed mine after laying as well. They seem to be grateful.


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## keolablue (Jan 9, 2010)

Hey guys! It's been a few months I guess- point is, one of my ooths has hatched. I only got around 50 or so little guys.

Anyway, just proving that this mating worked so they must have been the same species. The nymphs are both green and brown- so cute!

Well I put them outside my window where the aphids used to be, but I've found that all of the aphids are dead.. And it's getting colder out, with the low being like 55 degrees.. Will they be ok?

They're on the leaves of my tree right outside of my window (2nd story). I was thinking of putting something on the leaves to attract small flies.. And it's a grapefruit tree anyway, so maybe fruit flies could collect anyway if I cut open some fruit..


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## MantidLord (Jan 9, 2010)

Congratulations! Glad you could hatch them and the mystery is officially solved. Good luck raising the little guys.


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## kamakiri (Jan 10, 2010)

Some are likely to make it...thanks for the update. Let us know if you see any in the next month.


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## Dr.Dragon (Jul 10, 2017)

Does anyone have a adult male Limbata mantis???


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