# pheromone



## Fisherman_Brazil (Mar 25, 2008)

Will female adult continue releasing pheromone after successful mating? Or can this be an indication of successful mating or not? Advice or suggestion is highly appreciated.

Luke fom Taiwan


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## tier (Mar 25, 2008)

Hi

No, sorry. Continuing calling means not fertile.

Mated females stop calling and start it again after they have layed several ooths at a time when no more sperma is left.

This is the best indicator of course,

regards,

tier


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Mar 25, 2008)

tier said:


> HiNo, sorry. Continuing calling means not fertile.
> 
> Mated females stop calling and start it again after they have layed several ooths at a time when no more sperma is left.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tier, you are a scholar and a gentleman. Now I understand why one or my Acromantis and Odotomantis behave strangely tonight. New question inspired from your answer. My Sybilla Pretiosa matured for almost too long, so as the male, but not actual mating was sighted and no pheromone releasing behavior has been observed. Something I can do about that? Sorry, my biolobical kowledge is rather primitive!

Luke


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## Rick (Mar 25, 2008)

I have never actually "seen" a mantis release pheremones so I don't think that is a good indication of having been mated. However it is best to just ensure they have been mated by observing it yourself and it helps to remate them after they have laid a few ooths. They will mate over and over again regardless.


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## tier (Mar 25, 2008)

Hi

I do not think this is correct:

If you observe your female beeing mated by a male but you also observe her calling again the next evening, you better mate again immediately. Or you will have to wait for the first ooth very long. And yes, it won't be fertile, too.

Every species I've kept did the calling behaviour, for some species you need trained eyes to observe it.

regards,

tier


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## Fisherman_Brazil (Mar 26, 2008)

Rick said:


> I have never actually "seen" a mantis release pheremones so I don't think that is a good indication of having been mated. However it is best to just ensure they have been mated by observing it yourself and it helps to remate them after they have laid a few ooths. They will mate over and over again regardless.


Thanks Rick

This is commonly accept and what the book said.



tier said:


> HiI do not think this is correct:
> 
> If you observe your female beeing mated by a male but you also observe her calling again the next evening, you better mate again immediately. Or you will have to wait for the first ooth very long. And yes, it won't be fertile, too.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tier,

Make more senses when I see them moving tail up and down again next time after positive fertility.

Best regards,

Luke


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## Pelle (Mar 26, 2008)

I noticed it by several species too.

Here's a picture of a _A.formosana_ female releasing pheromones


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## macro junkie (Mar 26, 2008)

Pelle said:


> I noticed it by several species too.Here's a picture of a _A.formosana_ female releasing pheromones


my idol male has started to do that?


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## Rick (Mar 26, 2008)

tier said:


> HiI do not think this is correct:
> 
> If you observe your female beeing mated by a male but you also observe her calling again the next evening, you better mate again immediately. Or you will have to wait for the first ooth very long. And yes, it won't be fertile, too.
> 
> ...


Like I said. I have never seen a female "calling". If I observed a successful mating then she is good to go and the ooth will be fertile. I think most people do not observe this "calling" behavior and it will just confuse others if they're trying to watch for it to determine if their mantis will lay fertile ooths. I mate females once or twice before they lay their first ooth and everything works fine. Then I try and mate them after they have layed a few ooths but that even doesn't seem to be necessary.

I don't honestly believe in any such "calling". They do release pheremones but females can and will mate over and over again. I have observed it in captivity and in the wild.


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## joossa (Mar 26, 2008)

tier said:


> HiNo, sorry. Continuing calling means not fertile.
> 
> Mated females stop calling and start it again after they have layed several ooths at a time when no more sperma is left.
> 
> ...





tier said:


> HiI do not think this is correct:
> 
> If you observe your female beeing mated by a male but you also observe her calling again the next evening, you better mate again immediately. Or you will have to wait for the first ooth very long. And yes, it won't be fertile, too.
> 
> ...


I would love to read about this. Do you have any links to specific studies or works?



Rick said:


> I think most people do not observe this "calling" behavior and *it will just confuse others if they're trying to watch for it to determine if their mantis will lay fertile ooths*.


I definitely agree with this.


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## tier (Mar 26, 2008)

Hi



> Like I said. I have never seen a female "calling". If I observed a successful mating then she is good to go and the ooth will be fertile. I think most people do not observe this "calling" behavior and it will just confuse others if they're trying to watch for it to determine if their mantis will lay fertile ooths. I mate females once or twice before they lay their first ooth and everything works fine. Then I try and mate them after they have layed a few ooths but that even doesn't seem to be necessary. I don't honestly believe in any such "calling". They do release pheremones but females can and will mate over and over again. I have observed it in captivity and in the wild.


@ joossa and rick:

i agree with the whole text.

But: I always see them calling  

Other people will be confused. Yes. Some will even ask if their males do it, too  fisherman brazil will know what he has to do  

Calling females are not fertile, not depending on how many times they were mated "correctly". Mating which looks correct do not have to be correct. Some males are just infertile, for example  

Waht is completely correct is that males do not care about calling but will mate any time as often as they are able to. You know: Some of my males try to mate other males, for example  

Of course there is scientific literature on it, but it is expensive  

regards


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## macro junkie (Mar 26, 2008)

tier said:


> [email protected] joossa and rick:
> 
> i agree with the whole text.
> 
> ...


so u where saying when a female is calling like in that pic with her abdermen down if a male does that it means nothing?wonder why he does that then?mayby it feals good :lol:


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## Rick (Mar 26, 2008)

The behavior you described in the pics I have observed before. However I thought it was the female "testing" an area for egg laying because it always happened right before laying an ooth. I only see this every now and then. I do not believe it to be her releasing pheremones. I am no expert but I have observed mantids since I was old enough to walk and I am pretty sure that behavior occurs before egg laying.


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## tier (Mar 26, 2008)

Hi

It is a little different than the behaviour before laying an ooth: Before laying an ooth, the female is testing the surface, yes, right. The abdomen will move quickly testing the surface.

While "calling" the abdomen is not moving, but just bended. And it is not touching the surface, but free in the air.

regards


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## Rob Byatt (Mar 26, 2008)

Rick said:


> The behavior you described in the pics I have observed before. However I thought it was the female "testing" an area for egg laying because it always happened right before laying an ooth. I only see this every now and then. I do not believe it to be her releasing pheremones. I am no expert but I have observed mantids since I was old enough to walk and I am pretty sure that behavior occurs before egg laying.


It is the females way of exposing the pheromone releasing glands on the dorsal aspect of the abdomen. Air flows over the glands (this is why the wings are elevated) and disperses the pheromones.

Tier is right


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## Christian (Mar 26, 2008)

To make a long story short: you are all right and all wrong.

First of all, females are receptive *before* they release pheromones. So they may copulate before showing the typical behavior. It usually needs a certain time threshold without having been copulated before the pheromone releasing posture is exhibited. For example, _M. religiosa_ females need about two weeks to be receptive but four until the calling behavior is shown. The calling behavior ist best seen in _Acanthops_ and _Tarachodes_. The glands are rather large and protruding in these genera. But all other (higher?) mantids show the calling behavior.

Secondly: the calling gehavior is shown usually by night in most species, at dawn in _Acanthops_ and in the evening in _Tarachodes_. If the female isn't fertilized soon, it is eventually shown by day.

Third: the calling behavior is started again some time after the first ooth, if the females was fertilized. It is important to know that the calling behavior is shown *even if *the female has still enough sperm. Some females may fertilize all their ooths in their lifetime and still show the calling behavior.

Fourth: if the calling behavior is restarted directly after mating, the female isn't fertilized. There has to be some weeks until it starts again.

Fifth: older females are often ignored by the males *despite* of calling behavior, depending on species. _Deroplatys_ are "famous" in this respect.

As usual, nothing is simple in nature...


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## MantidLord (Mar 26, 2008)

:blink: So...was Rick right about the "testing" part, because I've seen my I. oratoria do that to a stick once, and I waited all night for her to do it (even fell asleep by her). And when I woke up, there was a nice ooth in the exact same spot she was "testing".

(I guess this means my fear of having my hand "layed on" is over) :lol:


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## Christian (Mar 26, 2008)

This has nothing to do with pheromone release.


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## Rick (Mar 27, 2008)

I can honestly say I have never, ever seen a mantis do that. Will try to witness it myself. I still don't think this is a reliable way for a hobbyists to know if the female is fertile or not as was mentioned.


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## Rick (Mar 27, 2008)

tier said:


> HiIt is a little different than the behaviour before laying an ooth: Before laying an ooth, the female is testing the surface, yes, right. The abdomen will move quickly testing the surface.
> 
> While "calling" the abdomen is not moving, but just bended. And it is not touching the surface, but free in the air.
> 
> regards


Could not tell by the pics which thing it was doing. Makes sense.


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## mrblue (Apr 24, 2008)

just thought i would show some low quality (if i move the mantids to get a beter photo or open their container they stop calling so i can only get quite por shots. but they show the position i guess. the acromantis female was mated and was fertile, but has now laid four ootheca. the paradoxa female has not been mated yet, but will be soon.


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## kamakiri (May 16, 2009)

I've seen the 'calling' pose from an 'old' _religiosa_ female after laying 4 or 5 ooths.

Surface testing prior to laying that I've seen always involved touching of the surface in multiple places and significant movement involving stepping or walking.

I have witnessed the calling just recently from several of my Gambian Spotted-Eye females at dusk. While I normally use two lamps in the bug room to provide heat and light, now that we are well into spring I have been leaving them off more frequently. While I have not noticed the calling behavior when turning off the lights and checking in darkness, I have noticed the calling after I let dusk settle in naturally.

Yesterday, I introduced two males to two separately housed females. One pair in a 32 oz pot, and the other pair in a 24 oz. I had the lights on and turned them off shortly after dark. Checked in on them several times later last night and didn't see anything happening...calling or mating. I was surprised since both females were calling the evening before.

Today, I made sure to turn off the lights while still bright out at approximately 5 PM. Checked shortly after sunset and both pairs were mounted. Now, a couple hours later at 9 PM, one pair is connected.

I believe the light conditions of the setting sun at dusk may trigger the calling (of course along with other maturity and fertility factors) in _Pseudoharpax virescens_.

Perhaps those that have not witnessed calling, do not have the natural light conditions that may be required for some species.

I completely agree that calling should not be used as a simple indicator of infertility.

I hope that may help any GS-E keepers trying to breed their mantises in the future!


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## PhilinYuma (May 16, 2009)

This thread was started some time before I joined the forum, and I claim no more than a cursory knowledge of the topic, though I have seen what may have been this behaviour in a female S. limbata at dusk. Two members, though, mentioned references in the literature, and anyone with Prete's volume can see a pic (first of the color illustrations) of A. falcata "calling" as well as several references to this topic in the text.


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