# stupid rule?



## drizzt (Jun 11, 2010)

###### with this stupid "us only"?

Live insect, i understand.. but ooths?

We have two worlds now? So lets make a rule "for US people only"

Ive shipped ootheca even to australia, asia and n. zeland without problems.

*Mantidforum.net is the heart of the **worldwide** hobby for people *

I have plans to start an european forum.. cos there is something wrong.


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## Rick (Jun 11, 2010)

What's so stupid about it? I think you're confused. It isn't a "rule" either. It is the individuals choice. There are rules here regarding the importation and exportation on insects and other agricultural items. Even though mantids are a gray area, the potential is still there to have issues. It's a simple as that. Why even risk getting in trouble or having the items confiscated just to make a buck? That is why I only sell and buy from within the US. I hope you don't think that we're just being selfish and wanting to keep things here because it has nothing to do with that. If the government had no such regulations I would ship overseas. It frustrates me sometimes that someone outside this country may have something I want, but it isn't worth the risk. Also, it is in bad taste to talk about making your own site while on this one.


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## drizzt (Jun 11, 2010)

Rick said:


> What's so stupid about it? It isn't a "rule" either. It is the individuals choice. There are rules here regarding the importation and exportation on insects and other agricultural items. Even though mantids are a gray area, the potential is still there to have issues. It's a simple as that. Why even risk getting in trouble or having the items confiscated just to make a buck? That is why I only sell and buy from within the US.


Gimme some links, i cannot believe that.

In Poland we have stupid law system, but even here we didnt hear about such nonsense.



> Also, it is in bad taste to talk about making your own site while on this one.


U have right here, im sorry.


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## Kruszakus (Jun 11, 2010)

Well, I don't send to US, because it takes too long, and I've lost some mantids due to delays and stuff like that. Besides, I heard that there be some rednecks in Alabama using mantids for afrodisiacs.


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## hibiscusmile (Jun 11, 2010)

I myself send o...hs. I don't send mantis cause I dont like the idea of them being in a box that long. It upsets me also that people won't send here and there, I did notice on another forum, that the people that say they will not send here, ....really don't mind buying here! That to me is fruadelent!


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## Rick (Jun 11, 2010)

drizzt said:


> Gimme some links, i cannot believe that.
> 
> In Poland we have stupid law system, but even here we didnt hear about such nonsense.


What, you think I am making stuff up?

I guess you don't realize we have a forum for this stuff:

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showforum=16

Here is a quote from a thread in the regulations forum. This is straight from someone at USDA:

"Only Native and fully naturalized (i.e. Tenodera aridifolia) mantids can be

held without a permit. Mantids that are non-native or not fully

naturalized in the environment require a USDA 526 permit to possess. The

large variety of mantid species that are available via internet trade are

nearly all illegal. We (APHIS) are not able to police the industry to the

extent that we would like.

We could consider a permit application for exotic mantids but you would

need to identify your sources. Generally we limit availability to

institutional situations such as zoos and museums and rarely issue permits

for private residences. Permits take 6+ weeks to get."

This is from another site. See the sixth paragraph:

http://www.insectnet.com/us_fishandwildlife.htm

http://coleopsoc.org/default.asp?Action=Show_Resources&amp;ID=Permits

http://www.fws.gov/le/ImpExp/Contact_Info_Ports.htm

Items not needing a permit to be imported. Don't see insects on there do ya?

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/animals/animal_import/animal_imports_nopermit.shtml


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## MantidLord (Jun 11, 2010)

No Kruz, thats Nevadans. So by "fully naturalized", do they mean found throughout the nation?


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## Rick (Jun 11, 2010)

MantidLord said:


> No Kruz, thats Nevadans. So by "fully naturalized", do they mean found throughout the nation?


I believe it to mean that any species that has established itself somewhere in the country. No species could be found across the entire country.


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## massaman (Jun 11, 2010)

well the chinese or maybe the european mantis is prob almost found throughout the U.S with exceptions!


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## MantidLord (Jun 11, 2010)

So what if some exotic mantis were to settle somewhere, would it be naturalized? I mean M. religiosa and T. sinensis were "exotic at the time. And I. oratoria. What about the native species that were pushed out or possibly extinguished? This is way too vague regarding insects.


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## Rick (Jun 11, 2010)

MantidLord said:


> So what if some exotic mantis were to settle somewhere, would it be naturalized? I mean M. religiosa and T. sinensis were "exotic at the time. And I. oratoria. What about the native species that were pushed out or possibly extinguished? This is way too vague regarding insects.


It is very vague, especially when it comes to mantids. But when has the government ever made sense? Few if any of these mantids could become established in this country except for maybe in FL. But they blanket the entire country with rules.


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## MantidLord (Jun 11, 2010)

Exactly true. And the ridiculous part is that they make it unnecessarily difficult to get these "permits" so many people say what's the use. Aren't there more detrimental insects being brought in that CAN flourish throughout the whole country, not just tropical regions?


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 11, 2010)

Before we get too far off topic drizzt, I hope that Rick answered your question to your satisfaction. This forum cannot oblige American members to sell ooths to Europe any more than it can oblige Europeans to sell them to the US. Some Europeans like Frey, sell both ooths and nymphs with a high level of success, some, like Marius Pohl will only send ooths here and some, like Kruszakus, will sell neither, as is their right.

Your idea of starting a European forum sounds great. What language will it be in, Polish, Estonian?


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## drizzt (Jun 11, 2010)

> Polish, Estonian?


Very funny.

Our current polish forum is way better and bigger than this, no offense.

*Yes Rick answered my questions, and im almost...satisfied. *

Forum exist for discussion.. not for stupid smiles and blogging... its that true or not..?



> Only Native and fully naturalized (i.e. Tenodera aridifolia) mantids can beheld without a permit.


Hmm... So.. U are breaking the law? :&gt;

We have similar problem, but only for vertebrates. Its say, we have to "register" animals (CITES only) max. 2 weeks after purchase.

Of course we must pay for this...

For now, we can keep in Poland even poisonous snakes (_Naja spp, Crotalus spp. Agkistrodon spp_, _Dendroaspis spp_.... even _Oxyuranus_!!! etc etc), and biggest constrictors (_Eunectes murinus, Pythons sebae, Python reticulatus_) legally, cos our stupid goverment cannot make proper rule...

Invertebrates can be kept without any problems. [Except _Brachypelma_ birdspiders - CITES]


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## Rick (Jun 11, 2010)

The whole point I want to make to those who keep pm'ing me and bashing my decision not to export is that it is nothing personal. Nobody is trying to be a jerk. If you can't understand the reasons then..........don't know what to tell ya.


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## Woodbox (Jun 11, 2010)

drizzt said:


> Very funny.
> 
> Our current polish forum is way better and bigger than this, no offense.
> 
> ...


I have seen a pretty well formed British mantis forum. They might be more open to shipping out of the country to you since they are on the same continent.


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## PhilinYuma (Jun 11, 2010)

Woodbox said:


> I have seen a pretty well formed British mantis forum. They might be more open to shipping out of the country to you since they are on the same continent.


I think that drizzt is interested in obtaining American species not readily available in Europe.

Actually, there is a very simple solution to this problem. I have friends and relatives in many parts of the world, folks who are willing to pick up or receive local merchandise by mail and send it on, knowing that I will return the favor.

No experienced and respected breeder should have any trouble establishing a relationship with a breeder in a foreign country and agreeing to use each other as a middle man. I can usually pick up a Priority Mail box from most parts of the U.S. in 2 days at my P.O. box. I have my shipping and custom labels ready and can have the package picked up in Poland 3-4 days later , as a Polish member of this forum recently posted. And no, I am not offering my services to all and sundry!


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## Christian (Jun 12, 2010)

I also belong to the guys that almost never sent stuff to the US. This is due to two simple reasons. First, because of the regulatory and customs issue - the risk that something gets confiscated is too high. I don't make recompensations, as I would pay at least twice then, given that the second parcel arrives, so the customer is the one that payed without getting something. Either way one is disadvantaged and people are quick when writing critics.

Second reason is that I usually have rarer and more delicate species which don't support endless days in a parcel.

I also refused to send to Hong Kong, by the way, because of the shipping time required.

Anyway, I can understand the precaution of the US government with exotic species. Way too many invasors became established in parts of the Nearctis. Not that there weren't nearctic invasors in Eurasia, but the damages are not as severe (with some exceptions). However, not the least part of those established fauna was initially released by hobbyists due to a lack of common sense, so the laws you got just reflect people's past behavior. Unfortunately, hobbyists over here are by no means better and it won't take long until similar laws will be established in European countries, particularly as politicians tend to follow the development in the US, regardless how senseless or unappliable to local conditions they may be. To make a long story short, hobbyists should stop complaining and start taking responsibility for their doings. Just because we are focused on mantids (which are rather indifferent, ecologically) we must not forget that other taxa may cause more severe problems.


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## Chief Tom (Jun 13, 2010)

Seems to me that any time some one says "no offense" it means exactly the opposite. oooooohh the polish site is way bigger and better than this site.......give me a break dude.


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