# Store Crickets R Safe?



## SlowChild (Oct 22, 2009)

is it me or is it the crickets from petco, every year when the weather becomes cold in the fall and theres no more bugs outside, i have to turn to store crickets, which i notice all my adult mantids die a week or 2 after i start feeding them crickets, now my last adult female is dying at the bottom of the aquarium, it caught the last cricket in the tank last night and took a couple bites and just has it in its fore arms ever since last night, its sitting and not moving at all at the bottom with its head bent down to the ground :angry:


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## kamakiri (Oct 22, 2009)

SlowChild said:


> is it me or is it the crickets from petco, every year when the weather becomes cold in the fall and theres no more bugs outside, i have to turn to store crickets, which i notice all my adult mantids die a week or 2 after i start feeding them crickets, now my last adult female is dying at the bottom of the aquarium, it caught the last cricket in the tank last night and took a couple bites and just has it in its fore arms ever since last night, its sitting and not moving at all at the bottom with its head bent down to the ground :angry:


It is a real concern. Anytime I have to resort to any pet store crix, they're quarantined and fed on my foods to make sure they are healthy first. A mantis is what it eats.

What breed of mantis are you talking about?


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## Rick (Oct 22, 2009)

Get your crickets from an online breeder. I like worrman and grubco. I have never had an issue with their crickets. If you have to get them at a subpar place then don't use them for several days while you feed them leafy greens, dog food, fish food, etc.


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## PhilinYuma (Oct 22, 2009)

Ha ha! If you are keeping U.S. mantids, they are usually getting ready to die at the same time that their food supply would disappear in the wild. It is not only frost that kills them off. Your mantids have probably reached the end of the road.

I almost never feed crix, for reasons that have nothing to do with any harm that they may do the mantids, but it's about time, once again, to attack the myths about pet store crickets in defiance of the advice of many much more experienced breeders than I.

Some mantis breeders advocate buying crickets from a wholesaler both to save money and receive a better quality insect. Pet store crix come from exactly the same wholesalers. Furthermore, if you go to a busy store, they will usually have had their crix in stock for less than a week -- they get a delivery usually in the middle of the week.

Let's look at the question of these mysteriously lethal crix. Are we proposing that they are some sort of orthopterous Typhoid Mary which carry a fatal but always unidentified disease for mantids while they remain lively and healthy looking themselves? Of course, if you are feeding crix that are dying off right left and center, you deserve to lose yr mantis raising permit and pay a stiff fine.

Gut loading with yummy fresh veggies is usually advocated as the cure for potentially toxic crix, but no one quite explains why. After a few days of such a regimen, all you will have is a cricket with a gut full of food that the mantis cannot digest. Also, you need to know that when the food enters a mantid's midgut, it is surrounded by a membrane which, among other things, prevents pathogens in the food from entering it's system with the products of digestion. I am not saying that you shouldn't feed the best food available, of course, merely that it will do the mantis no good at all.*

Finally, I would point out that unhealthy crix, like unhealthy mantids, will die, and if they die in the store, they will represent a loss to the store owner, not a good way to do business.

There is one thing that I have wondered about and never checked out except in one store. Almost no store crix are bought to feed mantids. They mostly go to feed herps. I wonder if some stores are not feeding some kid of multivitamin and calcium powder which is fine for herps but may cause problems with crix.

Edit: * I just remembered that D. Yager, in the last chapter of the Prete book, recommends gut loading with animal proteins like dog, cat and fish food. Now that does make sense and greatly increases the crickets' nutritional value.


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## hibiscusmile (Oct 22, 2009)

Good advice Phil! I do feed mine that food too. Also I agree about the pet store cricks, They always look good, are clean and i do not see dead ones in with them, so I do buy them when I am in a fix. I also feed mine carrots, which some say are bad, but grubco uses them, so why shouldnt' I!


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## [email protected] (Oct 22, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]Cool Phil good info man, well I see that there is calcium in some of the water bits and then some also have added vitamins and calcium in there gutload or total bit.[/SIZE]


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## [email protected] (Oct 22, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Good advice Phil! I do feed mine that food too. Also I agree about the pet store cricks, They always look good, are clean and i do not see dead ones in with them, so I do buy them when I am in a fix. I also feed mine carrots, which some say are bad, but grubco uses them, so why shouldnt' I!


[SIZE=14pt]Hey Phil wasn't there something about feeding carrots to roaches you told me once :lol:  ya it was some1 saying not to feed them to them but you &amp; I do so ha ha.[/SIZE]

Oh ya I like to feed Super[SIZE=14pt]worms to my larger manitds, all I do is glue a 2oz cup to the side and then dinner is ready.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]


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## Rick (Oct 22, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Ha ha! If you are keeping U.S. mantids, they are usually getting ready to die at the same time that their food supply would disappear in the wild. It is not only frost that kills them off. Your mantids have probably reached the end of the road.I almost never feed crix, for reasons that have nothing to do with any harm that they may do the mantids, but it's about time, once again, to attack the myths about pet store crickets in defiance of the advice of many much more experienced breeders than I.
> 
> Some mantis breeders advocate buying crickets from a wholesaler both to save money and receive a better quality insect. Pet store crix come from exactly the same wholesalers. Furthermore, if you go to a busy store, they will usually have had their crix in stock for less than a week -- they get a delivery usually in the middle of the week.
> 
> ...


Of course they come from the same places. However, once they arrive in a typical pet store the quality of care often goes downhill. You mentioned food. Well of course a variety is the best option. I feed a mix of veggies and dog food. Are you saying you should wait longer for the cricket to digest its food before offering it to the mantis? Nothing wrong with that advice. Keep in mind most food insects in the wild also have a gut load of plant matter that the mantis cannot digest. I see no difference..


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## charleyandbecky (Oct 22, 2009)

I don't know about all this, but I usually use Pet Smart crickets. I find grasshoppers in the yard quite a bit for the larger mantids, but the smaller ones get crickets from Pet Smart. They deliver on Thursdays and I get my supply on Thursdays so I can get the newest ones. The only untimely mantis deaths I have experienced were from a bad molt, never anything I could attribute to diet. We have had such an unbelievable amount of rain this summer that my yard has spent a large amount of time underwater...not good food-hunting for me. So, the storebought crickets have been a good, reliable food source with (thankfully) no issues.

That being said, this time of year, my spring-hatched babies are beginning to slow down and reach the end of the road. I haven't had any die yet but I come in here every morning expecting it. I have one ancient Chinese male that I just cannot believe every morning when he is still alive. :mellow: 

Rebecca


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## Rick (Oct 23, 2009)

charleyandbecky said:


> I don't know about all this, but I usually use Pet Smart crickets. I find grasshoppers in the yard quite a bit for the larger mantids, but the smaller ones get crickets from Pet Smart. They deliver on Thursdays and I get my supply on Thursdays so I can get the newest ones. The only untimely mantis deaths I have experienced were from a bad molt, never anything I could attribute to diet. We have had such an unbelievable amount of rain this summer that my yard has spent a large amount of time underwater...not good food-hunting for me. So, the storebought crickets have been a good, reliable food source with (thankfully) no issues.That being said, this time of year, my spring-hatched babies are beginning to slow down and reach the end of the road. I haven't had any die yet but I come in here every morning expecting it. I have one ancient Chinese male that I just cannot believe every morning when he is still alive. :mellow:
> 
> Rebecca


Then I wouldn't worry about it in your case. The whole cricket thing is blown out of proportion anyways.


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## JoeCapricorn (Nov 4, 2009)

Has anyone had any experience with "Orange Cube" cricket food? I give that to my crickets as it provides food and humidity, and they love it... but I often notice that mantises will stop eating them at a certain point, when they start biting at the Orange Cube still in the cricket's stomach. Not a big problem, since what I do is I pull the stomach out (this happens anyway since Amber does not seem to like catching live food, so I pull the cricket's head off and the stomach comes with, often with an orange turd-shaped thing wiggling along, then just let her 'nose' touch the decapitated cricket and she'll take it immediately) and refeed the cricket.

Now, as for my babies, they aren't on crickets yet, but when I do start getting them small sized crickets, which is better? Orange Cube or cat food with water?


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## Rick (Nov 4, 2009)

JoeCapricorn said:


> Has anyone had any experience with "Orange Cube" cricket food? I give that to my crickets as it provides food and humidity, and they love it... but I often notice that mantises will stop eating them at a certain point, when they start biting at the Orange Cube still in the cricket's stomach. Not a big problem, since what I do is I pull the stomach out (this happens anyway since Amber does not seem to like catching live food, so I pull the cricket's head off and the stomach comes with, often with an orange turd-shaped thing wiggling along, then just let her 'nose' touch the decapitated cricket and she'll take it immediately) and refeed the cricket.Now, as for my babies, they aren't on crickets yet, but when I do start getting them small sized crickets, which is better? Orange Cube or cat food with water?


Yep. Waste of money. Cheaper for me to just give them stuff I already have around. A variety of natural food is better than anything like that stuff.


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## sbugir (Nov 4, 2009)

JoeCapricorn said:


> Has anyone had any experience with "Orange Cube" cricket food? I give that to my crickets as it provides food and humidity, and they love it... but I often notice that mantises will stop eating them at a certain point, when they start biting at the Orange Cube still in the cricket's stomach. Not a big problem, since what I do is I pull the stomach out (this happens anyway since Amber does not seem to like catching live food, so I pull the cricket's head off and the stomach comes with, often with an orange turd-shaped thing wiggling along, then just let her 'nose' touch the decapitated cricket and she'll take it immediately) and refeed the cricket.Now, as for my babies, they aren't on crickets yet, but when I do start getting them small sized crickets, which is better? Orange Cube or cat food with water?


I do have that Flukers Orange Cricket Cube stuff. It works alright. It helps if your lazy like me, as it's convenient to throw in some cubes haha. But Rick is right, its much more convenient, cheaper, and healthier to feed them veggies and stuff laying around the house, or fridge


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 5, 2009)

Yep, gotta agree with both of you on the Orange Cube. They work fine, but you are paying for hype -- "Formulated to be easily digested by all feeder insects," -- which means nothing at all, metallic salts and vitamins which are great for herps, but unnecessary for the well being of either the crix or mantids.

Whatever form of vegetables you feed, though, remember that crix are omnivores, and the animal protein in cat or dog (or hedgehog) food will make them smile.


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## Rick (Nov 5, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Yep, gotta agree with both of you on the Orange Cube. They work fine, but you are paying for hype -- "Formulated to be easily digested by all feeder insects," -- which means nothing at all, metallic salts and vitamins which are great for herps, but unnecessary for the well being of either the crix or mantids.Whatever form of vegetables you feed, though, remember that crix are omnivores, and the animal protein in cat or dog (or hedgehog) food will make them smile.


I like dog food better. Cat food contains more protein than dog food therefore dog food also has a lot of other stuff that crix like.


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## wero626 (Nov 5, 2009)

I rarely feed my mantids crickets its a good diet but most of mine dont even take interest i would look into bbf's or house pupae's flies are defenitly your best bet for your mantids and you can let them hatch and feed them honey as i do crickets are grounds insects and manitds are not they spend 75 percent of there time on the tops of containers so hit up www.mantisplace.com and you can get some flies good luck...


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## Christian (Nov 6, 2009)

> The whole cricket thing is blown out of proportion anyways.


Please don't take me wrong Rick, but I wonder if you just don't want or can't understand that this isn't true. We told you since years that crickets may cause a problem, and you continuously insist that they don't. And every time we asked about the species you made your experiences with you didn't give an answer. The problem I have with your answers concerning this issue are the generalizations you make. Since several years I try to convince people to take care with feeding crickets, to check quality and to generally avoid feeding certain species with them. I also said that crickets are not bad per se, but in fact good mantis food if you breed them for yourself or know the source and the breeding methods. All you say is "it doesn't matter", regardless of source or mantis species. This is misleading and really not funny. There were enough people who lost precious mantids to this unholy food source, and I am not talking here about _T. sinensis_ you find in the backyard, but about _Idolomantis, Gongylus, Rhombodera_ etc.

Infected mantids die rather quickly, so it must be either a pathogen or a toxic substance. Feeding the crickets for several days may enhance their nutritional value, it will not eliminate any pathogens or toxics (e.g. antibiotics) that have accumulated in the tissue over their whole life.

Like Phil said, cricket suppliers think of herps as cricket-eaters, and predators are not deterred by most arthropod pathogens. So, as long as no herp guy complains, they see no need for changing anything.

So, please, stop generalizations. The only thing you can say is that you haven't got problems yet with species X or Y. This is by far the more important info than "the cricket thing is blown out of proportion".


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## Rick (Nov 6, 2009)

Christian said:


> Please don't take me wrong Rick, but I wonder if you just don't want or can't understand that this isn't true. We told you since years that crickets may cause a problem, and you continuously insist that they don't. And every time we asked about the species you made your experiences with you didn't give an answer. The problem I have with your answers concerning this issue are the generalizations you make. Since several years I try to convince people to take care with feeding crickets, to check quality and to generally avoid feeding certain species with them. I also said that crickets are not bad per se, but in fact good mantis food if you breed them for yourself or know the source and the breeding methods. All you say is "it doesn't matter", regardless of source or mantis species. This is misleading and really not funny. There were enough people who lost precious mantids to this unholy food source, and I am not talking here about _T. sinensis_ you find in the backyard, but about _Idolomantis, Gongylus, Rhombodera_ etc.Infected mantids die rather quickly, so it must be either a pathogen or a toxic substance. Feeding the crickets for several days may enhance their nutritional value, it will not eliminate any pathogens or toxics (e.g. antibiotics) that have accumulated in the tissue over their whole life.
> 
> Like Phil said, cricket suppliers think of herps as cricket-eaters, and predators are not deterred by most arthropod pathogens. So, as long as no herp guy complains, they see no need for changing anything.
> 
> So, please, stop generalizations. The only thing you can say is that you haven't got problems yet with species X or Y. This is by far the more important info than "the cricket thing is blown out of proportion".


What? I don't insist they don't cause a problem! I never mentioned they were fine as food for two of the species you listed. I understand they are not an ideal food for every mantis .I fed three generations of Rhombodera on crickets with zero issues. I get sick and tired of people saying you can't use crickets for mantids which is not true. I have said TIME AND TIME AGAIN that you must get them from a good source and take care of them properly. So don't say otherwise. Why do you think I don't think crickets can cause problems? I"VE HAD THE SAME PROBLEMS! However like I say often, you have to care for them properly.

But for the average everyday hobbyist that makes up the majority of this hobby, good quality crickets that are taken care of are a fine food source. I get tired of the scare tactics everyone uses regarding crickets, hence my often short replies. I think somewhere along the line you misread what I have said regarding this issue. I am no expert like you I admit. I am an average hobbyist who represents others like myself. So to recap, I never, ever said crickets can't cause problems. I've had the problems myself and I have spoke about it on this board. I have said many times that when using crickets you have to get them from a good source and take care of them properly so don't say I said otherwise.


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## Christian (Nov 6, 2009)

Ok, then this was misunderstood on my side. But you should maybe ask yourself why even me has wrongly understood what you said, not talking about less experienced guys than we two!. It just doesn't become clear from your answers.

The average or beginner hobbyist is really the problem. Of course someone who hasn't bred mantids before can't know about all problems, and as crickets were mentioned in almost every feeder insect source as good mantis food (which they were in the past), one cannot know about the new problems. Now when someone buys one or more mantids from me and asks for care tips, it is much safer to say "avoid crickets" than explaining when and how he should find, buy, and feed crickets until feeding them to mantids, how the cricket box should look like (no vomiting dots on the cardboard) or what he can do if he got a problem: in fact he can do nothing, even if the mantids should recover, they stay infertile. So, to avoid that people get disappointed after their first try, it's just safe to say: no crickets, so there is one failure less they can do. Some species like _Idolomantis_ may die after a single cricket meal, but I didn't figure out yet why. I didn't try it with mines yet.


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## Rick (Nov 6, 2009)

Christian said:


> Ok, then this was misunderstood on my side. But you should maybe ask yourself why even me has wrongly understood what you said, not talking about less experienced guys than we two!. It just doesn't become clear from your answers.The average or beginner hobbyist is really the problem. Of course someone who hasn't bred mantids before can't know about all problems, and as crickets were mentioned in almost every feeder insect source as good mantis food (which they were in the past), one cannot know about the new problems. Now when someone buys one or more mantids from me and asks for care tips, it is much safer to say "avoid crickets" than explaining when and how he should find, buy, and feed crickets until feeding them to mantids, how the cricket box should look like (no vomiting dots on the cardboard) or what he can do if he got a problem: in fact he can do nothing, even if the mantids should recover, they stay infertile. So, to avoid that people get disappointed after their first try, it's just safe to say: no crickets, so there is one failure less they can do. Some species like _Idolomantis_ may die after a single cricket meal, but I didn't figure out yet why. I didn't try it with mines yet.


It's text. It is easy to misunderstand. I am sure we all do it. However, in normal face to face conversation I doubt it would happen. I think you have a lot of frustration with the average hobbyist. However, most people will fall into that category. Not everyone is or even wants to be an entomologist. But without people taking up an interest in these creatures the hobby may die out. I think there are potential issues with every food source. Wild food would seem an ideal source however i've ran into problems with that too. For some of us, myself included, roaches are not an option. Now, that isn't due to myself, but family members who cannot be convinced they won't escape and breed. I admit I have zero experience with idolomantis, so I will have to take your word that they cannot eat crickets. I find it odd that an opportunistic predator cannot eat a single cricket without dropping dead. However, I am sure you could get all technical on me and explain why,but I am frankly not interested right now.

Look, I know crickets are not the best food under all circumstances, and it is easy to tell someone not to use them. But like it or not crickets are the easiest, cheapest, and most available food source out there for most of us. I noticed you mentioned something about the tenedora in my backyard. You may well believe that since I like to post pics of the wild mantids that that is the only mantids I have experience with. Not true. Most people here like to see pictures whether it is a wild tendedora or an idolomantis. That may not hold true for you but I didn't like how you brought it up in the context that that was all I have fed crickets to or have kept. I've kept many speices and if they were of the size to eat crickets that was their primary food source. I can recall having issues related to crickets only a couple times. So anyime I have mantids that can take a cricket, that will be the primary food source regardless of the scare tactics that float around on this board. In my experience, and I stress that only in my experience I have found crickets to be fine almost all of the time. So therefore, I will continue to tell others they are ok. Notice though that most times when I mention them I do add that you have to take care of the cricket properly. But at least in the herp world people undestand that. Doesn't seem so in this hobby as much.


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## Christian (Nov 6, 2009)

I'm not sure about why _Idolomantis_ does so bad with crickets. I didn't try it by myself, so I only have to rely on the experience of others, and that are many. Anyway, I don't think that crickets as such are the problem, if they will get wild ones there would be certainly no issue about them (besides that _Idolomantis_ wouldn't take them except from a pincer). More probably it's a sign of the bad quality of mass-reared crickets. Some mantids wouldn't bother as much as others and if you add unfavorable conditions it may explain why some species show a worse reaction than others. The problem may lie in the fact that crickets are the cheapest food source. As with any "product", quality depends on price, and as long as people are not willing to pay more for the food of their pets one shouldn't wonder that you get only [email protected] I have already heard of herp guys suffering losses due to crickets, and this raises the question how bad this food source really is if even reptiles die.

My opinion really is that one shouldn't recommend crickets to newbies and I will continue to intervene if I have the impression that this was done without explaining the problems. It is one thing what you do personally and what to tell others. There are many things I practise in the hobby that I wouldn't recommend to everyone.

Maybe one of the problems also lies in what one means when talking about breeding. If you try to keep your stocks clean and healthy for years you may well be cautious what you feed to your mantids, because massive losses cannot be overcome by buying new specimens, particularly if you are one of the few or the only one who has this bloodline. If you have to add unknown specimens to your stock, you can skip it. What you got then is some mixed up bloodline without special characteristics. You will think twice then about what you feed to your mantids.

On the other hand, if you don't care about origin or bloodlines then loosing some specimens to bad food may be not as severe as you always get new specimens from somewhere. Most species persist like this in the hobby, particularly _Pseudocreobotra, Phyllocrania_ and _Parasphendale_.

And then there are people who don't breed but only raise for one generation and have always to buy new specimens to get some pairings at all.


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## Rick (Nov 6, 2009)

Christian said:


> I'm not sure about why _Idolomantis_ does so bad with crickets. I didn't try it by myself, so I only have to rely on the experience of others, and that are many. Anyway, I don't think that crickets as such are the problem, if they will get wild ones there would be certainly no issue about them (besides that _Idolomantis_ wouldn't take them except from a pincer). More probably it's a sign of the bad quality of mass-reared crickets. Some mantids wouldn't bother as much as others and if you add unfavorable conditions it may explain why some species show a worse reaction than others. The problem may lie in the fact that crickets are the cheapest food source. As with any "product", quality depends on price, and as long as people are not willing to pay more for the food of their pets one shouldn't wonder that you get only [email protected] I have already heard of herp guys suffering losses due to crickets, and this raises the question how bad this food source really is if even reptiles die. My opinion really is that one shouldn't recommend crickets to newbies and I will continue to intervene if I have the impression that this was done without explaining the problems. It is one thing what you do personally and what to tell others. There are many things I practise in the hobby that I wouldn't recommend to everyone.
> 
> Maybe one of the problems also lies in what one means when talking about breeding. If you try to keep your stocks clean and healthy for years you may well be cautious what you feed to your mantids, because massive losses cannot be overcome by buying new specimens, particularly if you are one of the few or the only one who has this bloodline. If you have to add unknown specimens to your stock, you can skip it. What you got then is some mixed up bloodline without special characteristics. You will think twice then about what you feed to your mantids.
> 
> ...


Great points. I think also that with the majority of people using crickets you are bound to see more problems associated with them. I agree in that I myself am more particular with food if I have something I really don't want to lose. But overall I believe for typical hobbyist that crickets are fine if the crickets themselves are taken care of. Too many people just buy them from a local place and toss them in with the mantids. I myself will get them from a reputable source and then not use them for several days whle I observe and feed them a variety of foods.


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