# Sick Malaysian Dead Leaf



## PowerHobo (Jan 22, 2019)

Sorry in advance if I talk in circles. Maple is my favorite mantis, so this was not something I wanted to wake up to.

My L8 female _Deroplatys lobata_ is acting like she's really sick this morning. She's about due for a molt (it's been 5 weeks), and has been refusing food since her last feeding _last_ Sunday (1/13), at which point she had basically an entire superworm. She's nice and plump like she usually is pre-molt, and her abdomen hasn't deflated at all since the last feeding. 

She was just rehomed a couple nights ago (1/20) to a 3 gallon plastic container because her head literally touched the sub in her 32oz container during her last molt, and I want her to have the room to do what she needs to do. There's probably 40 1/16th holes in the lid (containers dry out too fast here if I do bigger holes), as well as about a dozen 1/16th holes scattered along the sides of the container. I will admit I made it too humid in there at first, and there is still some light condensation on the sides, but nowhere near as much as their was when I first put her in.

While I was preparing her new home she got to hang out on the lucky bamboo (Dracaena) that she normally enjoys during time out of her container, for about an hour or so. She also took a tiny amount (one or two little nibbles) of organic raw/unfiltered honey from a toothpick, just as a treat, as there were no concerns at that time.

This morning, I noticed she was hanging sort of odd. Kind of in the molting position but without the wide, secure grip on the lid, and with one tarsi just detached from the mesh and drooping a bit. I've had nymphs die hanging before, so I was immediately worried, especially since she didn't react at all when I passed my hand along the container (she usually goes into a stick mimic posture my wife calls "twigging"). I opened the lid expecting to retrieve a corpse, but as soon as the lid was turned over she crawled off of it and onto my hand, and I do mean crawled. She basically dragged herself onto my hand like she couldn't pick up her own weight.

I tried to offer her a bit of honey on a toothpick, but she had zero interest, and was instead just dragging herself around my hand, so I got her back onto her lid, and very carefully turned it over to make sure she could hold herself on the mesh, then put her back in her container because I had to leave for work. She's hanging there but very... limp... I guess is the word. Her legs aren't as spread as she normally has them for a molt, and her abdomen is drooping almost straight down like her thorax is. She's holding her raptorial arms up, at least, but not tucked against her thorax like she typically does before a molt.

There's nothing I can do but wait and hope, is there? Sorry for the novel.


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## MantisGirl13 (Jan 22, 2019)

It sounds like you disturbed her when she was about to molt. Leave her alone for a while, but continue to watch her if you can. I hope she is ok and you come home to a freshly molted Maple, but it may be too late.

- MantisGirl13


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## Synapze (Jan 22, 2019)

She may have been in mid-molt when you found her. It seems odd that her abdomen would still be full from a meal she ate 9 days ago.  What temperature have you been maintaining in her container?

I'd say not to disturb her for a while and hope for the best.


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## PowerHobo (Jan 22, 2019)

I should've added that I watched her for a while before passing my hand in front of her container or opening the lid, and there was zero of the typical molt squirming occurring.

I'm not monitoring internal container temps (because I don't currently have the means), but the room is kept consistently between 71-74f, with all of my mantids out of the direct draft of the vents.


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## Synapze (Jan 22, 2019)

D. lobata require consistent high humidity (70-80) and good ventilation... a hard to maintain combo. Temps should be maintained above 74° to thrive and molt successfully. Consistent low temperatures can prevent digestion of food and a fat abdomen can interfere with molting. You should consider buying a temperature/humidity meter; I wouldn't consider it optional... it's hard to guestimate when it comes to many exotic species. 

I would boost the temperature of her enclosure to around 80° and add more ventilation.  I would look and not touch for a few days and see what happens. Best wishes... keep us posted.


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## PowerHobo (Jan 22, 2019)

Well, you guys called it, and I am once again humbled by the fact that no matter how much experience I feel I've gained, in the grand scheme of things I still know nothing.

Maple has molted to adulthood, which means either I was off in keeping track of her molts or D lobata don't have an L9 as I was told. She clearly fell at the end of her molt, as she's in the bottom of her container but her old exo is still on the lid (I regret giving her such a damned tall container), but her legs appear to be straight at the least, and she's swaying, so she survived the fall. I can't see her wings just yet to see if they've fully unfolded or were damaged in the fall, and I want to give her until at least tonight before I go disturbing her. 

I will update with pictures either way.


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## hysteresis (Jan 22, 2019)

With my mismolted golden, it was incorrect articulation of the joints. Her leg segments were fairly straight.

Ive noticed the swing their legs as they dry. It's not really drying, it's sclerotization. The exoskeleton begins to 'set up'.

I fear that if they're resting on the ground, the joints sclerotize with reduced mobility.

This is just a hypothesis: the swinging of the legs during sclerotization allows distortion in the section thicknesses of their joints. If they don't do this, I think there will be less range, and likely less strength at a legs distance. Stiff joints.

My golden couldnt climb or walk right.


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## MantisGirl13 (Jan 22, 2019)

@PowerHobo Is she still alive? Can we see a picture of her? How badly deformed is she?

- MantisGirl13


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## Mantis Lady (Jan 22, 2019)

How is she doing now? Yeah, i like to see a pic.


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## PowerHobo (Jan 22, 2019)

hysteresis said:


> My golden couldnt climb or walk right.


That's pretty much where we're at.

She is alive, and she's mobile in general, but she can't actually stand or pick herself up off a surface, and she can't even hold her thorax upright. She's missing the tarsus on one raptorial leg, and the other one seems to be useless. She cannot grip really at all with her rear legs, and so she cannot hang from her lid. The best she can do is hang on the side of the enclosure, head-down, which frankly looks very uncomfortable. The legs are mobile but appear to be pretty much useless.

She looks fine, and she's as friendly as ever (or at least what we perceive as friendly), but like I said, she can't actually stand, and so can't really walk; she basically just belly-crawls around.






















Since she can't hang I'm sure I'll have to hand feed her, which I don't mind. I just don't know what sort of quality of life she'll have.


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## MantisGirl13 (Jan 22, 2019)

She like to be in pretty good shape! She will (or should) figure out walking once her exoskeleton is completely hardened and she has her strength back. Go Maple!!!!

- MantisGirl13


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## PowerHobo (Jan 24, 2019)

Unfortunately, no improvement in her mobility, and she definitely can't hang onto anything with those back legs. I found her on her side in the bottom of the container flailing her legs this morning, and judging by where she was she may have tried to climb onto the lid and fallen again.

Luckily, she didn't seem too fazed when I scooped her up and she was able to grip onto her side "ladder" about as well as last night.

I'm going to try feeding her a headless superworm tonight and see how she does. I really don't think she'll be able to make it work hanging from the side, but hopefully she'll be able to hold onto prey if she's just sitting on her lid. Since she can't really get her thorax upright, I think regular hunting is out of the question.


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## hysteresis (Jan 24, 2019)

This brings back some sad memories of Hope.


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## hysteresis (Jan 24, 2019)

This is how she spent her last weeks. Always eating well, but labouring at everything. 






Shed even attempt to climb without tarsi. Shed pull herself up using her tibias on her raptorials. Like hooks. Near the end, one tibia fell off. 






I feared her living in constant contact with surfaces might expose her to mold issues, and certainly difficulty with respiration. 

That being said, I did everything I could and didnt give up until I knew she was done.

At least yours is an adult and doesnt need to survive another molt. ❤


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## MantisGirl13 (Jan 24, 2019)

@PowerHobo Can you give her a cage with netting lining the sides and lots of sticks? That might be better for her to be able to move around.

- MantisGirl13


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## PowerHobo (Jan 25, 2019)

I had to put her in the freezer this morning. This was the fourth time I'd found her on the floor of her container, only she wasn't even flailing this time, she was just pretty much limp, barely even moving when I picked her up. I'm not thrilled but I'm also not going to prolong suffering needlessly.

Since she was clearly more prone to falling, I had moved her back into a 32oz cup with 3 strips of tulle up the sides to make sure she had plenty of ladders.


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## hysteresis (Jan 25, 2019)

This sucks, hey @PowerHobo?!

I felt way better after I let mine go though.


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## PowerHobo (Jan 25, 2019)

Seriously, I feel less sad now that it's done than I have since the molt. It definitely sucks to lose my favorite mantis, though.


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## Mantis Lady (Jan 25, 2019)

Sorry for your loss, always sad to let a mantis go to end suffering.


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## PowerHobo (Jan 25, 2019)

Luckily, I finally had a pinning attempt that didn’t turn out like total (I think, I really struggle with wings), so Maple will get to go into her own little shadow box eventually.


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## MantisGirl13 (Jan 25, 2019)

So sorry you lost her   

She was beautiful! Good job with the pinning! I agree, the wings are so hard to work with!

- MantisGirl13


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## hysteresis (Jan 25, 2019)

Oh gosh. This thing runs deep, hey?

Right down to preserving and presenting.

Y'all are incredible!


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