# Internal parasites



## Rick

Some of you may recall me telling the story of when I was a kid and I would find immature carolina mantids late in the season. These would always have a large larva or maggot inside of them. Well lately I have found a few immature carolina mantids but their abdomens were not fat but instead they were skinny. The carolina mantids around here are laying ooths this time of year but these are still a couple molts away from adult.

I found some this past weekend and one died yesterday. I noticed today that the abdomen was split open just like one I had found dead in the wild. I then noticed several small maggots crawling around in the bottom of the enclosure. These came from this mantis and they explain the theory I have had that it was internal parasites causing their late development. I have a couple more and I am waiting to see if they have the same issue that may also explain their late stage of life this late in the season.






















This my also explain this mantis. This one was adult though.


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## Morpheus uk

Nasty, be sure to keep them though and see what they turn out like.


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## revmdn

Yeah, I want to see what the adult parasite is also.


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## Katnapper

Very interesting. I wonder at what stage they were parisitized... in the ooth or after? Be sure to let us know what the adult parasites turn out to be.


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## massaman

could be some kind of wasp that knocks the mantis out then lays eggs inside them.Kind of like those wasps that grab spiders or other insects and lay eggs on them and then the larvae or maggots feast on the host organism!


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## bassist

My guess is eggs are ingested from prey.


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## ABbuggin

I found an adult female Carolina like infested with what looks to be the same parasite. The maggots turned into flies for me.


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## ismart

I have seen this also. Or at least something similar. I have in a near by park, a population of _Tenodera angustipennis_. I have come across males that are pre-subadult at this time of year, whitch of course is stange at this time of year, because they should be adults already. They acted like normal mantids except for the fact there abdomins were extreamely bloated. I never actully saw the maggot burst from the abdomin but when i would look into the cup the mantis would be dead or dying and there would be a redish colored pupea on the floor of the cup. I always missed the maggott's emergence from the mantid. I do think mine are different from yours rick. There was only one maggott per mantid with mine, and they were only male nymphs that seemed infected. I did try and hatch some of the pupea, but they never hatched. Hold onto yours rick and see what species of fly they turn into?


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## idolomantis

Nasty.. would be interesing to see what the adults look like though.


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## cloud jaguar

How weird.... and gross


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## Ntsees

Like what others have said above, keep them and find out what they turn out to be. I want to know what this fly or wasp is. About the only parasites I know of are tiny wasps that lays it's eggs alongside with the female mantid - where the wasp grubs would hatch out and feed on the eggs before the mantids hatch.


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## Rick

ismart said:


> I have seen this also. Or at least something similar. I have in a near by park, a population of _Tenodera angustipennis_. I have come across males that are pre-subadult at this time of year, whitch of course is stange at this time of year, because they should be adults already. They acted like normal mantids except for the fact there abdomins were extreamely bloated. I never actully saw the maggot burst from the abdomin but when i would look into the cup the mantis would be dead or dying and there would be a redish colored pupea on the floor of the cup. I always missed the maggott's emergence from the mantid. I do think mine are different from yours rick. There was only one maggott per mantid with mine, and they were only male nymphs that seemed infected. I did try and hatch some of the pupea, but they never hatched. Hold onto yours rick and see what species of fly they turn into?


That is what I saw years ago. This is different. The mantids are a little plump but not bloated looking like those were.

p.s. I am interested in some angustipennis if you can get em.


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## ismart

Rick said:


> That is what I saw years ago. This is different. The mantids are a little plump but not bloated looking like those were. p.s. I am interested in some angustipennis if you can get em.


I plan on going to the park one day this weekend. This is the exact time of year i find the mantids with the parasites. I should have no problem finding some narrow-winged for you.


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## Rick

ismart said:


> I plan on going to the park one day this weekend. This is the exact time of year i find the mantids with the parasites. I should have no problem finding some narrow-winged for you.


Let me know. A gravid female or an ooth would be nice. No parasites though.


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## joossa

Funny, I too saw a subadult native female in the wild with the same problem not too long ago.

So, you guys really think fly eggs can incubate and hatch from inside the mantis if a gravid female fly was eaten (along with her eggs)?


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## cloud jaguar

I too am pretty intrigued by this parasitized mantid - also i don't recall reading anything about that in Prete's book.


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## ismart

Rick said:


> Let me know. A gravid female or an ooth would be nice. No parasites though.


Don't worry rick! I'll do my best!  



joossa said:


> Funny, I too saw a subadult native female in the wild with the same problem not too long ago.So, you guys really think fly eggs can incubate and hatch from inside the mantis if a gravid female fly was eaten (along with her eggs)?


I'm more under the impression the mantids were over powered by the adult flies or wasps and the larvae was injected into the mantids when they were small nymphs. Or eggs were laid on the mantids themselves, then hatched and burrowed into them. These are just thoughts of course.  All of this is extreamly interesting. Maybe one of our forum entomologist members can shine some light on the subject!


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## PhilinYuma

ismart said:


> Don't worry rick! I'll do my best!  I'm more under the impression the mantids were over powered by the adult flies or wasps and the larvae was injected into the mantids when they were small nymphs. Or eggs were laid on the mantids themselves, then hatched and burrowed into them. These are just thoughts of course.  All of this is extreamly interesting. Maybe one of our forum entomologist members can shine some light on the subject!


Yeah, this is a puzzle isn't it? I read in a site from Brisbane, that tachinid flies are known to parasitize hemimetabolous insects like grasshoppers and stick insects, so I guess that they could do the same to mantids. I don't think that they'd even have to overcome them. I have seen a picture of a bug (hemiptera and also hemimetabolous) with a couple of tachinid eggs on it, so I guess that they only have to perch for a few seconds.


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## Rick

I am going to keep them and see what they turn into. I assume that once they kill the mantis they will pupate since their food source is now gone. The abdomens of these mantids are nearly empty after these things come out. I was hoping somebody will some knowledge on this would chime in. Christian?


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## Ntsees

Rick said:


> I am going to keep them and see what they turn into. I assume that once they kill the mantis they will pupate since their food source is now gone. The abdomens of these mantids are nearly empty after these things come out. I was hoping somebody will some knowledge on this would chime in. Christian?


Yeah, that's pretty much the trend when dealing with a parasite and it's host. There's a possiblity that what if the parasites are not ready to pupate yet? There were quite a few parasites and due to that, maybe they couldn't get the necessary nutrients yet to pupate? If they are not quite ready yet to pupate, are you going to feed them so that you'll at least know (and hopefully share with us) what those things are when they become adults? This is something that I haven't encountered and as a mantid breeder, I, as well as anyone else, would like to know this other threat to mantids.


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## AmandaLynn

If it is some kind of fly, they will probably continue to feed on the mantis carcass until they are ready to pupate. Also you might want to keep them on a damp paper towel or sphagnum moss, so they have somewhere to pupate when they are ready.


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## planetq

Wow,... Yuck.

This sucks.

Yeah, I know there are mantis parasites such as species of nematomorpha who enter the host's body through what the mantis eats,

but I don't know any parasitic fly larvae that enters that way. Most likely what Phil said is what happened.

Still... freakin' gross. Yes, like the others I am definitely curious to find out what the adults look like.

So I can kill them if I see any near my mantises.


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## superfreak

they are likely, as phil said, tachinid flies. they wont feed on the dead mantis. now that they have left its corpse, they will pupate. the eggs were laid on the mantis as ingestion would kill them. parasitic nematodes are specifically designed to survive the gut environment.


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## massaman

Tachinid Fly

* Prey: The tachinid fly will parasitize grasshoppers, beetles, larvae, caterpillars etc. They will often take on large hosts such as the tomato hornworm. Some not all species are host specific, only preying on there chosen diet.

* Habits: The female tachinid fly will lay her eggs on the host insect skin, however sometimes the eggs will be injected into the body of the host. The larvae then hatch and feed on host insect. Sometimes the host ingests the fly's eggs only to have the fly destroy the host upon hatching. Adults enjoy pollen and nectar as well, and can serve duel purpose in the garden as pollinators.

* Appearance: This large fly often will be seen with a blue metallic abdomen. There are over 1400 North American species in the family Tachinidae. Adults have incredibly distinct bristles on the end of their abdomens. They are a similar size to the common housefly but can occasionally resemble bees.

http://attra.ncat.org/intern_handbook/entomology.html


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## Rick

AmandaLynn said:


> If it is some kind of fly, they will probably continue to feed on the mantis carcass until they are ready to pupate. Also you might want to keep them on a damp paper towel or sphagnum moss, so they have somewhere to pupate when they are ready.


Yes. Already been done.


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## hibiscusmile

totally disgusting Rick! ps Paul, got a photo of the narrowwinged? Dont think I have ever seen one in person!


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## Ntsees

calarts_security said:


> ...Yes, like the others I am definitely curious to find out what the adults look like.So I can kill them if I see any near my mantises.


+1000000

You got that right! You read my mind!


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## a1_collection

I think i have seen similar larvae in a dead grasshopper I found and kept in a jar. I think they will soon hatch into house flies or maybe flesh flies.


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## joossa

Here is that subadult _Iris oratoria_ female I was speaking of. I found her yesterday (Tuesday, 9/23/09) in my back yard. Her abdomen was black, but not torn open.

Today (Wednesday), I went back to the same place and she is still there. However, her abdomen is now torn open and has a huge hole in it. The poor thing is still alive....

These are pictures from this afternoon....












It's similar to what you have there Rick...


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## cloud jaguar

forget about the bees... what the heck is killing all the mantids!


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## PhilinYuma

a1_collection said:


> I think i have seen similar larvae in a dead grasshopper I found and kept in a jar. I think they will soon hatch into house flies or maybe flesh flies.


Not houseflies!  You're right about flesh flies, though; that's the common name for tachinids.


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## kamakiri

Wow...just hoping none of my recently caught girls have anything like that brewing! :barf:


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## NoKanDo

poor thing... i hate flys


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## a1_collection

Those flesh flies are scary. I have noticed that the specimen is usually bloated and very slow when it is infected with the larvae. In grasshoppers, their abdomens are turgid and plump. I think the weaker structure of a mantid's abdomen caused it to rupture compared to a grasshopper's.


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## jameslongo

I think Phil is onto something (as usual). My guess is that the larvae are from a fly species of the family _Tachinidae_. Adults can't penetrate ooths, since females have a reduced ovipositor, but it could have attacked a nymph. Strange though, they mainly parasitise caterpillars (I know all too well &lt;_&lt; ). I don't believe that the mantid ingested the maggots. Their mandibles chop the food very finely. One theory I have is that the mantid caught a recently parasitised prey &amp; the maggots decided to switch ship as the mantid was eating. Any takers?

All I know is that the mantid had to have been parasitised for a while, or at least a similar period of time for a young caterpillar to pupate.

Ntsees: the idea behind parasitism is for the parasite to leech off of the host until it is ready to enter the next phase of its life. It doesn't make sense for it to kill the host prematurely with no definite food source in sight. The maggots shown above will probably pupate soon. If they don't, god bless 'em, they screwed themselves over  

Edit: oops, only read the 1st page :S Pardon me for sounding like a parrot.


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## Peter Clausen

Interesting to see this topic! I got into a conversation about this very subject today with a recently retired USDA (pest/extension office) guest to my home. He's from Louisiana and has been collecting and raising mantids down there for many years. He had witnessed many instances of tachinid parisitism in mantids. He would collect them as young nymphs and the results described above would ensue. He also made a reference to seeing horse hair worms as mantis parasites. You have to drop the dead mantis in water to see them emerge. ( http://www.extension.umn.edu/yardandgarden...4horsehair.html )

Flies in tachinidae are usually just called tachinid flies, while the closely related flies in sarcophagidae are the flesh flies (gray and black thorax with checkered abdomen).

I'm starting to think that feeding those two huge tachinid flies to some breeder female mantises today was a less than great idea. Maybe I should have taken my chameleon's advice when he passed on them.


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## Rick

Interesting stuff. I have also seen thin, long worms in grasshoppers but not in mantids. Interesting that some mantids are infected and others are not. I think I will continue to bring home every mantis I find this time of year that is way behind in growth. The others I have are ok it seems. One molted. No evidence of parasites with those. You can bet these flies will be destroyed.


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## hibiscusmile

I am wondering, if they will spread from one to another before hatching? or in simpler terms, is it safe to keep wild caught mantis in the same room as the captive ones in different cages?


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## jameslongo

hibiscusmile said:


> I am wondering, if they will spread from one to another before hatching? or in simpler terms, is it safe to keep wild caught mantis in the same room as the captive ones in different cages?


i would say, 'yes.' once a maggot has found its home in an organism, it ain't going to budge until it's ready to pupate, except in unusual circumstances.


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## Rick

hibiscusmile said:


> I am wondering, if they will spread from one to another before hatching? or in simpler terms, is it safe to keep wild caught mantis in the same room as the captive ones in different cages?


I don't think that is how they get infected with them. If the fly has no access to the mantids then I can't see how they could get them.


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## ismart

hibiscusmile said:


> totally disgusting Rick! ps Paul, got a photo of the narrowwinged? Dont think I have ever seen one in person!


I unfortuneatly don't have a photo of a narrow-winged mantis. I did not have a camera at the time that i had them, but i do have one now.  I find that my parasites are clearly a bit different from rick's and joossa's. I have only come across male narrow-winged nymphs with the parasite in them. Never a female narrow-winged, common chinese male or female, that inhabit the same feild as the infected narrow-winged males. All together over the years i have collected 8 of these male narrow-winged nymphs with the parasite. I have only tried hatching 3 of the pupea, but none have ever hatched for me. I have also noticed there was only one parasite per mantis nymph. Unlike rick's litter of maggots. I also noticed that after the maggot would emerge there would be a small slit on the side of the abdomin, not a big nasty hole in the abdomin like rick's and joossa's. Of course these are just observations i have had.


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## Ntsees

jameslongo said:


> Ntsees: the idea behind parasitism is for the parasite to leech off of the host until it is ready to enter the next phase of its life. It doesn't make sense for it to kill the host prematurely with no definite food source in sight. The maggots shown above will probably pupate soon. If they don't, god bless 'em, they screwed themselves over


Yes, I understand the concepts behind parasitism. Although it is possible to have more than one parasite per host, I find that because there were so many parasites in Rick's mantid that I was concerned the parasites might not have fed enough to pupate. Usually it's the one parasite per host as Ismart says. And it's not that we want them to be screwed over. We want them to pupate so we'll know what the adults looks like so we can watch out for them.


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## Ntsees

My ideas and reasonings on how the mantid may have gotten the parasites: there may be more, but I can only think of 3 methods on how the mantid could become parasitized:

(1) The mantid fed on a prey that had the parasites and parasites managed to latched on to the mantid before it could be consumed (as what someone mentioned).

(2) The parasites hatched out from eggs laid on plants and waited for a host to come by so they can latch onto them - and in this case a mantid came by (it's like how ticks wait on a bush until you or a dog come by so they can get a blood meal).

(3) The parent parasite (fly, wasp, etc.) would have to actively search out for a host (like how Tarantula hawks search out tarantulas to lay their eggs). In order for that to happen, the parent parasite would need claws to hold onto it's host before it can lay it's egg(s). (probably this type of parasitism might not involve a fly since I've never seen a fly that can grab ahold of something - excluding the robber flies). And don't forget, a mantid is usually always on the lookout for a meal and I don't think a fly would make the cut to have the opportunity to sit on a mantid to lay it's eggs. Considering how alert and agile mantids are in the wild, more or less, I don't think a mantid will let anything land on it unless it was "forced" to (with gripping claws).

Could be any or none of the three above. Just giving some possibilities. Now, we wait and see what those parasites turn out to be.


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## massaman

some could inject the eggs if the mantis is paralyzed like some wasps do to spiders and scorpions


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## ismart

These are the methods that i have found online that tachinid flies use to infect there hosts.

1. Some species stick eggs directly on the host.

2. Some species deposit eggs on foliage of host food plants to be ingested by the host as it feeds.

3. Some species lay their eggs on their hosts witch hatch into larvae, and enter the host through a soft part of the hosts skin.

4. Females of some other species that attack bugs and adult beetles have piercing ovipositors that insert their eggs into the body of their hosts.

5. Some species, instead of laying eggs, they lay live larvae and apply them onto the host using either of the above methods.


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## Rick

Could be any but number two.


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## cloud jaguar

Is there any way WE could get infected with those parasites?  Those horeshair worms are particularly disturbing - at my kids school they found one in the sandbox and freaked out because they thought it might crawl up a kid's butt.


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## kamakiri

jameslongo said:


> Ntsees: the idea behind parasitism is for the parasite to leech off of the host until it is ready to enter the next phase of its life. It doesn't make sense for it to kill the host prematurely with no definite food source in sight. The maggots shown above will probably pupate soon. If they don't, god bless 'em, they screwed themselves over  Edit: oops, only read the 1st page :S Pardon me for sounding like a parrot.


 :huh: If you read the first page, you would see that Ntsees understands what you are condescendingly explaining above.


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## ismart

Arkanis said:


> Is there any way WE could get infected with those parasites?  Those horeshair worms are particularly disturbing - at my kids school they found one in the sandbox and freaked out because they thought it might crawl up a kid's butt.


Just tell them next time there playing in the sandbox to clench there butt cheeks together so those darn sneaky butt worms don't get them! h34r: :lol:


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## ismart

Rick said:


> Could be any but number two.


I'm kinda leaning toward #4


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## planetq

Rick said:


> Interesting stuff. I have also seen thin, long worms in grasshoppers but not in mantids. Interesting that some mantids are infected and others are not. I think I will continue to bring home every mantis I find this time of year that is way behind in growth. The others I have are ok it seems. One molted. No evidence of parasites with those. You can bet these flies will be destroyed.


Rick- I have read that they are actually very common in mantises, especially in Asia, and the mantises get infected by eating the already infected prey.

















Images from

http://blog.naver.com/g5hdm?Redirect=Log&amp;a...No=140089767452

and http://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=L...;aid=0000101671

(They are in Korean)


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## PhilinYuma

This is a really interesting topic, with lots of different ideas. Here are a few thoughts based on my very limited knowledge of insect parasitism.

Mantids are parasitized by a variety of tiny wasps and tachinid flies.

Parasites can get "on board" a mantis. At least one wasp regularly does this, usually mounting a female, living off her tissue as a non-fatal ectoparasite and scooting down the tip of the abdomen to lay her eggs in the mantis's ooth before the protein froth hardens. The larval wasps are parasitoids that each eat one egg.

Usually, if a beetle, or a tarantula is paralyzed by a parasitoid, it remains paralyzed until it is consumed. Eggs are usually laid on rather than in the victim.

Parasites that lay their eggs on the surface of their prey can parasitize a small number of related insects. Those that lay their eggs inside the prey often specialize in one species. The host's immune system will try to engulf or destroy the eggs, and the parasite needs to suppress these defenses with a variety of species-specific viruses and egg coatings. The parasitic larva can also control the host's hormones so that the host and parasite pupate at the same time. For this reason, and for the reason that Superfreak pointed out yesterday, the transfer of a parasite from one host to another by being eaten is as close to impossible as anything in nature can be. Of course, I am not talking here about parasites like the mosquito that use multiple hosts in their life cycle.

Also, for obvious reasons, one host insect can only support a biomass substantially smaller than itself until close to the end of its life. For this reason the number of parasites per host is very limited. It is believed that when a parasite injects an egg into a host, she leaves a pheromone marker so that no other parasite or close relative will reparasitize it. This is one of the main reasons why I think that Rick's mantis and someone else's dead grasshopper were not parasitized, even though both are subject to parasitism.

I suspect that when you find a dead insect or one that contains dead or necrotic tissue that is full of maggots, the maggots, like house and phorid fly larvae, are simply eating the dead flesh and did not get there before a fly laid its eggs in the dead tissue. So I'm going to bet hat the maggots turn out to belong to some small, non parasitic fly.

Arkanis: we don't need insect parasites, we already have a huge number of nematodes, trematodes and cystodes, that just love human insides and can't wait to leap on us!


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## massaman

here is something interesting where a parasite turns its victim into a mindless zombie until it hatches

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/...-fire-ant-host/

http://discovermagazine.com/photos/04-zomb...at-control-them


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## Rick

Phil, this mantis was alive and well right before the emergence of the maggots. Just clarifying that in case you missed it. Well, the little nasties have hardened up. I will see if they hatch.


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## jameslongo

Ntsees said:


> Yes, I understand the concepts behind parasitism. Although it is possible to have more than one parasite per host, I find that because there were so many parasites in Rick's mantid that I was concerned the parasites might not have fed enough to pupate. Usually it's the one parasite per host as Ismart says. And it's not that we want them to be screwed over. We want them to pupate so we'll know what the adults looks like so we can watch out for them.


I'm not saying that your understanding of parasitism is lacking, Ntsees. In fact, from what I gather your posts, you have a good understanding in entomology. I've got my money on tachinid flies &amp; they lay more than one egg per host. I have kept Anthelid Moth caterpillars (roughly the size of the abdomen of the mantid in question) &amp; have been surprised to find each of them had been parasitised by at least 4 maggots, which metamorphed into these buggers.

I wouldn't worry about them being 'screwed over.' I believe they will pupate. Hopefully all will reach adulthood.



kamakiri said:


> :huh: If you read the first page, you would see that Ntsees understands what you are condescendingly explaining above.


Sounds like you've been parasitised there, Grant :lol: Sit on any tachinid flies lately?


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## kamakiri

jameslongo said:


> I'm not saying that your understanding of parasitism is lacking, Ntsees. In fact, from what I gather your posts, you have a good understanding in entomology. I've got my money on tachinid flies &amp; they lay more than one egg per host. I have kept Anthelid Moth caterpillars (roughly the size of the abdomen of the mantid in question) &amp; have been surprised to find each of them had been parasitised by at least 4 maggots, which metamorphed into these buggers.I wouldn't worry about them being 'screwed over.' I believe they will pupate. Hopefully all will reach adulthood.
> 
> Sounds like you've been parasitised there, Grant :lol: Sit on any tachinid flies lately?


Very contradictory to your previous tone. But it's not worth a warn point to tell you what I really think.


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## Ntsees

jameslongo said:


> I'm not saying that your understanding of parasitism is lacking, Ntsees. In fact, from what I gather your posts, you have a good understanding in entomology. I've got my money on tachinid flies &amp; they lay more than one egg per host. I have kept Anthelid Moth caterpillars (roughly the size of the abdomen of the mantid in question) &amp; have been surprised to find each of them had been parasitised by at least 4 maggots, which metamorphed into these buggers.I wouldn't worry about them being 'screwed over.' I believe they will pupate. Hopefully all will reach adulthood.
> 
> Sounds like you've been parasitised there, Grant :lol: Sit on any tachinid flies lately?


In regards to the one egg per host, that's what I normally think of when I hear "parasite and host" but now that I come to think about it, there are hosts that may have many parasites (seeing a tobacco hornworm with those white coccoons on it's back). And yes, although I'm not an expert in parasitology, I'm sure the tachinid flies do lay more than one egg on a host. I guess when I posted those comments, I wasn't thinking broadly enough (I gotta get some sleep) lol.

And hopefully they will hatch since Rick mentioned that they were hardening up.


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## hibiscusmile

You guys watch " monsters inside me"? I am clenching my butt together right now!!!


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## hibiscusmile

I usually think of this parasite whenever talk of them comes up, I have seen this in my garden and always freaks me out, anyone else seen this? This parasite lays it inside the hornworn.

http://elmostreport.blogspot.com/2008/09/t...conid-wasp.html


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## jameslongo

hibiscusmile said:


> I usually think of this parasite whenever talk of them comes up, I have seen this in my garden and always freaks me out, anyone else seen this? This parasite lays it inside the hornworn.http://elmostreport.blogspot.com/2008/09/t...conid-wasp.html


That photo is horrible! At least the tobacco will live another day  I have seen the adults flying about my garden but never a parasitised insect. The more we know, eh?


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## hibiscusmile

you should see it in person, unbelievable!


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## PhilinYuma

Rick said:


> Phil, this mantis was alive and well right before the emergence of the maggots. Just clarifying that in case you missed it. Well, the little nasties have hardened up. I will see if they hatch.


Yeah. I totally confused your and Joosa's pix. There is no doubt in my mind that a mantis lagging way behind in its development and then dying just before or after its final instar is parasitized, and the maggots confirm it. I don't know whether the number of maggots is normal or not, but since the eggs of tachinids would have been laid on the mantis's cuticle, the pheromone trick might not work and the mantis may have been parasitized by more than one fly.Glad you mentioned that. Now I can change my bet before the gate goes up!


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## PhilinYuma

hibiscusmile said:


> I usually think of this parasite whenever talk of them comes up, I have seen this in my garden and always freaks me out, anyone else seen this? This parasite lays it inside the hornworn.http://elmostreport.blogspot.com/2008/09/t...conid-wasp.html


I looked up the URL, Rebecca, and the part that most sickened me was: "Hornworms found covered with wasp cocoon should not be killed, but allowed to live -- for just a little while longer -- so the Braconid wasps can complete their life cycle and then paraticize more hornworms." I bet that these folks believe in water boarding for a good cause, too! :angry: (and they can't even spell parasitize!)


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## Rick

PhilinYuma said:


> Yeah. I totally confused your and Joosa's pix. There is no doubt in my mind that a mantis lagging way behind in its development and then dying just before or after its final instar is parasitized, and the maggots confirm it. I don't know whether the number of maggots is normal or not, but since the eggs of tachinids would have been laid on the mantis's cuticle, the pheromone trick might not work and the mantis may have been parasitized by more than one fly.Glad you mentioned that. Now I can change my bet before the gate goes up!


They have pupated. Now I wait and see.


----------



## hibiscusmile

Phil, I do let them live when I see this, only because I have a lot of hornworms and my sister screams when she sees them, plus I thought, it was an interesting thing to obseve, but maybe I shouldn't have, but the site said they were laid inside the hornworm and came out when ready, so really the damage was already done inside of it. Sorry if I made a mistake.


----------



## Christian

I didn't read the whole thread, so sorry if it was said before:

There aren't many records of dipteran parasitism in mantids, with the parasite often left undetermined. Three families are known today: Tachinidae, Sarcophagidae and Nemestrinidae. The mantids aren't infected by eating the fly; the fly lays eggs or maggots on the mantis which then borrow into the mantid. They can live for a long time with the parasite, but is seems to be always lethal. I once found a maggot attached to the thoracic musculature of a _Sph. lineola_ I dissected in order to remove the guts. It lived in my hut for some weeks when I was in the Ivory Coast several years ago. I found it as a nymph and it molted to adulthood some weeks later. Before departure I killed it and found the fly larva inside.

Hymenopterans, if not egg parasites, act different: they grab the mantis, paralyze it, and bury it alive underground. The egg is laid to the side of the mantid(s).


----------



## Rick

Christian said:


> I didn't read the whole thread, so sorry if it was said before:There aren't many records of dipteran parasitism in mantids, with the parasite often left undetermined. Three families are known today: Tachinidae, Sarcophagidae and Nemestrinidae. The mantids aren't infected by eating the fly; the fly lays eggs or maggots on the mantis which then borrow into the mantid. They can live for a long time with the parasite, but is seems to be always lethal. I once found a maggot attached to the thoracic musculature of a _Sph. lineola_ I dissected in order to remove the guts. It lived in my hut for some weeks when I was in the Ivory Coast several years ago. I found it as a nymph and it molted to adulthood some weeks later. Before departure I killed it and found the fly larva inside.
> 
> Hymenopterans, if not egg parasites, act different: they grab the mantis, paralyze it, and bury it alive underground. The egg is laid to the side of the mantid(s).


Interesting. Interesting that some mantids are affected and others are not. Wonder if it would be beneficial to destroy these mantids when they are found.


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## Ntsees

Rick said:


> Interesting. Interesting that some mantids are affected and others are not. Wonder if it would be beneficial to destroy these mantids when they are found.


Whether you destroy infected mantids or not is up to you. But one thing is certain - since we're mantid enthusiasts, don't let those parasites (when they come out of their pupae) escape.


----------



## Christian

Parasitoids are not 'bad' and mantids are not 'good'. It's a predator-prey relationship like that between mantid and cricket.


----------



## ABbuggin

Christian said:


> Parasitoids are not 'bad' and mantids are not 'good'. It's a predator-prey relationship like that between mantid and cricket.


Couldn't agree more. If it wasn't for birds/lizards, and parasites, the mantid population would become too large.


----------



## Ntsees

Christian said:


> Parasitoids are not 'bad' and mantids are not 'good'. It's a predator-prey relationship like that between mantid and cricket.


True, that parasitoids are not bad. It depends on the situation and personal preference. If you had a garden of tomatoe plants, you'd wish parasitoids were everywhere so they'll get rid of the pests (tobacco hornworm, etc.). But then again, if you own let's say a fish farm, you'd do your best to keep your fish parasite-free so you can sell them in the market (no one wants parasite-infested fish). And yeah, mantids are not all good (ex: feeding on beneficial insects), but we happen to like them so we'll do what we can to protect the ones we have.


----------



## bassist

Ntsees said:


> True, that parasitoids are not bad. It depends on the situation and personal preference. If you had a garden of tomatoe plants, you'd wish parasitoids were everywhere so they'll get rid of the pests (tobacco hornworm, etc.). But then again, if you own let's say a fish farm, you'd do your best to keep your fish parasite-free so you can sell them in the market (no one wants parasite-infested fish). And yeah, mantids are not all good (ex: feeding on beneficial insects), but we happen to like them so we'll do what we can to protect the ones we have.


In nature there is no 'bad' or 'good' is what Christian is getting at I believe.


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## Ntsees

bassist said:


> In nature there is no 'bad' or 'good' is what Christian is getting at I believe.


Yeah, I know.


----------



## PhilinYuma

Ntsees said:


> True, that parasitoids are not bad. It depends on the situation and personal preference. If you had a garden of tomatoe plants, you'd wish parasitoids were everywhere so they'll get rid of the pests (tobacco hornworm, etc.). But then again, if you own let's say a fish farm, you'd do your best to keep your fish parasite-free so you can sell them in the market (no one wants parasite-infested fish). And yeah, mantids are not all good (ex: feeding on beneficial insects), but we happen to like them so we'll do what we can to protect the ones we have.


Yeah. It's not just in "nature" either. "Good" and "bad" are always value judgments by the beholder. Our soldiers are good guys, risking their lives to protect us. Enemy soldiers are vicious attackers, killing women and children! Our guerrillas are freedom fighters; theirs are terrorists. Up the Bears! Down with the cheeseheads! My religion is God given. Your religion comes from the devil! And so it goes.

Edit: I am well aware that "pest" insects have to be destroyed if our food is to be as plentiful and inexpensive as it is. I also realize that many entomologists need to spend their time coming up with ways to kill these insects. I just wish that they wouldn't get so much enjoyment out of it!


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## massaman

just think what it would be like of the mantis was bigger then us and decided to breed and raise human beings and how would they treat us heh!


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## agent A

What I want to know is why a mantis doesn't just eat the fly if it's trying to lay eggs in it. If it eats the fly, the eggs will be digested and won't hatch.


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## massaman

kind of hard to eat the fly if it paralyzes the mantis or manages to overpower it!


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## agent A

massaman said:


> kind of hard to eat the fly if it paralyzes the mantis or manages to overpower it!


yeah true but a mantis isn't just gonna let a fly come up to it and paralyze it somehow and lay eggs in it. I think a mantis would notice a fly and would promptly grab it, unless of course it was molting, which may explain how maggots get through a mantid's tough exoskeleton.


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## yeatzee

agent A said:


> yeah true but a mantis isn't just gonna let a fly come up to it and paralyze it somehow and lay eggs in it. I think a mantis would notice a fly and would promptly grab it, unless of course it was molting, *which may explain how maggots get through a mantid's tough exoskeleton.*


Am I correct in inferring that they get through the abdomen which is soft? Seems logical to me


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## agent A

yeatzee said:


> Am I correct in inferring that they get through the abdomen which is soft? Seems logical to me


you make a good point there.


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## Peter Clausen

Nature works like this, Agent A:

Small tachinid fly tries to lay eggs on large mantis= mantis lunch

large tachinid fly tries to lay eggs on young mantis= "mantis" lunch

Does that help?

We have to assume that some flies are eaten by the mantises. And we have to assume that some are not. Of course, it is entirely possible that mama fly became food for her own babies after she laid eggs on Rick's mantis.


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## Ntsees

agent A said:


> yeah true but a mantis isn't just gonna let a fly come up to it and paralyze it somehow and lay eggs in it. I think a mantis would notice a fly and would promptly grab it....


That's what I was thinking of in my earlier post. Another thing, I've never seen a fly that can paralyze and so if it was going to lay it's eggs on a mantid, it would probably be like what you said - lay it's eggs on the mantid when it was molting (I can't think of another time when a mantid is more vulnerable). Anything that may lay it's eggs on the mantid when not molting would have to be extremely small in order to escape the mantid's forelegs, but by judging the size of those parasites, it doesn't look like they are anything small. Very puzzling and interesting at the same time. As usual, we're just waiting to see what Rick finds when those pupae hatches.


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## PhilinYuma

It is not possible for a mantis to get its claws to reach all the way down the thorax and abdomen. There are a number of small parasitic wasps that spend their adult lives on their host, e.g. Matibaria manticida, which preys on the European mantis, _Mantis_ _religiosa_, and spends much of its life on its host's back and actually feeds off it. This is not some wild exception, either. The habit of one insect hitching a ride on another is called phoresy, and in the case in question, the wasp lives on the female mantis's thorax at the base of the wings and nibbles away until the female starts to lay an ooth, at which time she scoots down to the ovipositer and lays her eggs in the frothy mass before it hardens. If the wasp accidentally hitches a ride on a male, she jumps off him and onto the female during mating. I guess that you could call her a STP.  

Parasitic flies tend to be larger and lay fewer eggs than parasitic wasps, but they are apparently as successful in mounting a mantis as the former. I do know that some, if not all, of these flies lay eggs that hatch into active planidium larvae that can burrow into the host even when it is not molting.

I do hope that people are not put off by terms like "phoresy" and "planidium". The reason that I use them is that it helps anyone who wants to Google the topic.


----------



## ismart

Now i'm just really pissed off! :angry: I decieded to go to the park yesterday in search of some infected narrow-winged mantids, only to find the parks department mowed down all the weeds , shurbs and bushes where i have found infected narrow-wings before. They did this in a few areas of the park. I just don't understand why they would even bother doing something like that. There are still feilds with undisturbed growth, but now i wonder if these areas are going to get destroyed soon as well.  On the bright side i still managed to find some chinese and one adult narrow-winged female.  Maybe sometime this week i'll try again.


----------



## Katnapper

ismart said:


> Now i'm just really pissed off! :angry: I decieded to go to the park yesterday in search of some infected narrow-winged mantids, only to find the parks department mowed down all the weeds , shurbs and bushes where i have found infected narrow-wings before. They did this in a few areas of the park. I just don't understand why they would even bother doing something like that. There are still feilds with undisturbed growth, but now i wonder if these areas are going to get destroyed soon as well.  On the bright side i still managed to find some chinese and one adult narrow-winged female.  Maybe sometime this week i'll try again.


 :huh: Sounds like you'd better hurry...


----------



## Rick

ismart said:


> Now i'm just really pissed off! :angry: I decieded to go to the park yesterday in search of some infected narrow-winged mantids, only to find the parks department mowed down all the weeds , shurbs and bushes where i have found infected narrow-wings before. They did this in a few areas of the park. I just don't understand why they would even bother doing something like that. There are still feilds with undisturbed growth, but now i wonder if these areas are going to get destroyed soon as well.  On the bright side i still managed to find some chinese and one adult narrow-winged female.  Maybe sometime this week i'll try again.


They do that here too. Half of the area I went to yesterday had been mowed.


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## massaman

I am sure the park had a scehdule on when to mow and that was the time they were going to mow it like around where I live there is papers posted sometimes when not to use water for lawns or gardens because its being treated!


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## ismart

massaman said:


> I am sure the park had a scehdule on when to mow and that was the time they were going to mow it like around where I live there is papers posted sometimes when not to use water for lawns or gardens because its being treated!


This was not like your common back yard lawn. They took down bushes and small trees that have been growing there for at least 10 years from when i started going there. I just don't understand why they would deciede to chop it all down now? What really ticks me off is they hit the only spot where i knew i could find infected narrow-wings. I know of another population of narrow-wings, but i have never come across one that was infected there. I guess i just have to keep looking! I would have liked to have gone back today, but it's pouring over here.


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## ismart

Katnapper said:


> :huh: Sounds like you'd better hurry...


I have a feeling i'm running out of time!


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## PhilinYuma

I have said definitively on this thread that mantids do not become parasitized by eating egg laden tachinid flies and was not surprised to see Christian agree. That being the case, a little evidence to the contrary is not going to change my mind.

I was looking at G. W. Ramsay's _Fauna of New Zealand #19: Mantodea_, 1989, p.53, published by the now defunct N.Z. DSIR, and came across the following: "An interesting example of endoparasitism has been reported by Brennan (1987), who discovered two fatalities in captive _O. newzealandiae_ which had been fed on the fly _Sarcophaga crassipalpis_ (Miller). Apparently, in both instances eggs or larvae from the fly survived ingestion by the mantid and continued to develop, eventually killing it. Whether or not the maggots reached maturity is not reported." I found the archived copy of The weta10(1) 31, but this short note was not included.

We don't know, though, whether the flies had a chance to lay eggs on the mantids before becoming prey themselves, as Peter suggests, or even whether these were domestically raised or wild-caught mantids. The weta, (now the Journal of the New Zealand Entomological Society) is an amateur publication and I personally don't find the name "Brennan" particularly trustworthy.

On the same page, though, there is an American report that "ten fully grown maggots of _Sarcophaga_ emerging from a dying _Stagmomantis carolina_, pupating in soil, and later emerging as adults." This is a greater number of maggots than I would have thought one mantis could support. Apparently the mantis agreed.


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## Ntsees

PhilinYuma said:


> It is not possible for a mantis to get its claws to reach all the way down the thorax and abdomen....


You are right on that because I've never seen my mantids reach down to their abdomen. But I was looking through internet and there appears to be some gray areas. I thought I'd share something I found on the internet (don't know if it could be true or not).

http://www.phasmidsincyberspace.com/PopaSpurca.html


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## Rick

Ntsees said:


> You are right on that because I've never seen my mantids reach down to their abdomen. But I was looking through internet and there appears to be some gray areas. I thought I'd share something I found on the internet (don't know if it could be true or not).http://www.phasmidsincyberspace.com/PopaSpurca.html


That is true. The pics below are my own. Not due to parasites though.


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## cloud jaguar

Rick's pics of the 'self service' mantids are interesting - about a year ago I commented on this phenomena when my s. californica seemed preoccupied with this activity.


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## superfreak

yeah. butt cleaning is a favorite pastime of my Hierodula. They can reach there, but they cant reach their backs.


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## PhilinYuma

superfreak said:


> yeah. butt cleaning is a favorite pastime of my Hierodula. They can reach there, but they cant reach their backs.


Yep. I can scratch my butt (in private, of course, when Tucker isn't looking) but I can't scratch between my shoulder blades!


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## Rick

Well here we go again. The OTHER type. Remember what I said about how I found them with one big larva inside years ago? I've had another immature carolina the last couple weeks that was VERY fat. I was wondering if it was like what I found before. Noticed today the mantis was very skinny. Looked in the bottom and sure enough there it was. This thing is huge. The mantis looks fine though which is different from the other type that killed the mantis:


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## revmdn

That's so crazy.


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## ismart

Rick said:


> Well here we go again. The OTHER type. Remember what I said about how I found them with one big larva inside years ago? I've had another immature carolina the last couple weeks that was VERY fat. I was wondering if it was like what I found before. Noticed today the mantis was very skinny. Looked in the bottom and sure enough there it was. This thing is huge. The mantis looks fine though which is different from the other type that killed the mantis:That's what was happening to the male narrow-wings. It appears to be the same parasite. Rick if you check the side of the mantids abdomin you will probally find a small slit from where the parasite exited. My narrow-wings never died right away either after the parasite emerged.


----------



## Rick

ismart said:


> That's what was happening to the male narrow-wings. It appears to be the same parasite. Rick if you check the side of the mantids abdomin you will probally find a small slit from where the parasite exited. My narrow-wings never died right away either after the parasite emerged.


No slit that I can see. Abdomen is a little out of shape but looks ok. Will see what happens.


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## massaman

maybe it had it expelled like it was going to the bathroom like insect constipation?


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## ismart

Rick said:


> No slit that I can see. Abdomen is a little out of shape but looks ok. Will see what happens.


It realy would be amazing if the mantis did survive without it's stomach contents!  



massaman said:


> maybe it had it expelled like it was going to the bathroom like insect constipation?


I doubt the mantis crapped it out! :lol:


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## Ntsees

Rick, can you check your mantid to see if it came out from where I pointed the arrow? That dorsal mark on the abdomen looks un-natural for a carolina mantid.


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## Rick

Ntsees said:


> Rick, can you check your mantid to see if it came out from where I pointed the arrow? That dorsal mark on the abdomen looks un-natural for a carolina mantid.


Doesn't look like it. This is weird but every carolina I have seen with this particular parasite had this color pattern. I think it came out the same way waste would. I doubt it eats the insides of the mantis but instead eats part of the mantids food. So far she is fine and they eat tomorrow so I will see if she eats or not. The parasite is larger than the mantids abdomen.


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## hibiscusmile

This is just gruesome,,,yuck, ycuk. I collected some chinese this last week cause it is getting really cold here, so far they look good, only diff I see is they have much bigger and moisture poop!


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## kamakiri

Wow. Imagine the movie Alien...and surviving *after* it exited!


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## PhilinYuma

Rick said:


> Doesn't look like it. This is weird but every carolina I have seen with this particular parasite had this color pattern. I think it came out the same way waste would. I doubt it eats the insides of the mantis but instead eats part of the mantids food. So far she is fine and they eat tomorrow so I will see if she eats or not. The parasite is larger than the mantids abdomen.


So far as I know, Rick, no insect parasitoid of mantids, and it is almost certainly a fly, feeds from the mantid's gut. Insects don't live inside a host's abdomen and eat its semi digested food, they eat the host's fat and protein. Unlike nematodes and similar nasties, an insect larva cannot anchor itself to the inside of an insect's gut by its mouth parts and absorb liquids and gases through its cuticle, so it's hard to see where it would get its air from. Also, if it was using its mouth to take in food, it couldn't stay fixed in the gut and would be constantly pushed "downstream" with the food bolus on its way to the anus.

Interesting stuff, though, eh?


----------



## yen_saw

Rick said:


>


 One of the Carolina mantis nymph collected from MO had the same problem too, I thought the nymph was going to molt but instead she was found hanging by one leg the next day, with a huge pupa on the bottom of the cage just like the one in this pic. The nymph die the next day. Bummer....


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## superfreak

are you sure the exit wound might not be in one of the lateral creases of the abdomen? check it when the nymph dies. this is fascinating!


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## Rick

PhilinYuma said:


> So far as I know, Rick, no insect parasitoid of mantids, and it is almost certainly a fly, feeds from the mantid's gut. Insects don't live inside a host's abdomen and eat its semi digested food, they eat the host's fat and protein. Unlike nematodes and similar nasties, an insect larva cannot anchor itself to the inside of an insect's gut by its mouth parts and absorb liquids and gases through its cuticle, so it's hard to see where it would get its air from. Also, if it was using its mouth to take in food, it couldn't stay fixed in the gut and would be constantly pushed "downstream" with the food bolus on its way to the anus.Interesting stuff, though, eh?


Yeah that makes sense. I was thinking along the lines of tapeworms and others like that where they live in the gut. I admit I know next to nothing about insect parasites. So far the mantis is still alive.



superfreak said:


> are you sure the exit wound might not be in one of the lateral creases of the abdomen? check it when the nymph dies. this is fascinating!


Very possible. There is a strange fold on one part of the abdomen where it may have come out at.


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## massaman

just hope one of my europeans is not infected as of late she did have a kind of fat gut and just recently she lost a little of the gut she had and its not real flat but a little thinner but wonder if even europeans and this time of year could get something and I am in Michigan as I said before and all I feed mine is crickets and a occasional fly that I catch outside being it gets colder outside and find the flies hugging trees either to keep warm or something but have not seen any maggots or anything yet so keeping my hopes up shes not infested!

http://www.cirrusimage.com/flies_flesh_Sarcophaga.htm

but think some of the flies i captured look kind of like these


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## massaman

In other species, the maggots use an ambush technique, waiting for the host to pass and then attacking it and burrowing into its body. The larvae feed on the host tissues.


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## Rick

I doubt your mantids have this issue unless they are wild caught but even then it is a small chance.

In other news the mantis which had the large parasite emerge is doing just fine.


----------



## Rick




----------



## massaman

but does that mantis have any problems eating or anything with that hole or slit in it!


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## ismart

I cant believe that mantis is still alive!  Every narrow-winged infected with the single parasite passed away a day later. Not to mention they were bigger then that carolina. That mantis is a trooper!


----------



## Rick

ismart said:


> I cant believe that mantis is still alive!  Every narrow-winged infected with the single parasite passed away a day later. Not to mention they were bigger that that carolina. That mantis is a trooper!


She acts perfectly normal. There are no visible wounds or anything. You can see what the other kind of parasite did to that other one.


----------



## MantidLord

Wow, when are these things gonna pupate?


----------



## kamakiri

MantidLord said:


> Wow, when are these things gonna pupate?


Eclose?


----------



## Rick

MantidLord said:


> Wow, when are these things gonna pupate?


No idea. I wish they would though. I plan on making a display out of them. I want to have the dead mantis, the fly casing, and the fly pinned together.


----------



## Ntsees

Rick said:


> ...I plan on making a display out of them. I want to have the dead mantis, the fly casing, and the fly pinned together.


Excellent to teach people new things: you have the mantids themselves along with the things that parasitize them. Anyways, is the mantid still able to eat after it survived that experience?


----------



## Rick

Ntsees said:


> Excellent to teach people new things: you have the mantids themselves along with the things that parasitize them. Anyways, is the mantid still able to eat after it survived that experience?


As I mentioned above the mantis is fine, eating and everything.


----------



## Rick

Well the six that burst from the mantis and killed it have eclosed into tiny flies that look like small houseflies. Originally I only saw five but there are six:


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## kamakiri

I wonder how or if they over-winter...

The specimens would make a nice and interesting display for your shows.


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## Ntsees

Wow, like what some people said, it was a fly. Now this makes me wonder what mechanism the fly used in order to parasitize the mantid. By just looking at it, it looks like any ordinary fly that a mantid can make a meal of.

Any thoughts on how a fly like this can have a chance to lay it's eggs on a mantid?


----------



## MantidLord

Sorry Kamikiri, I meant eclose.

Wow, can anyone I.D. that fly? I'm wondering if someone should try to breed it just to see how it infects the mantis.


----------



## Ntsees

MantidLord said:


> ...just to see how it infects the mantis.


That was what I was thinking too but I don't know if Rick wants to do that. I mean, just look at it. I'm almost positive that if you put that with a mantid, that fly will be lunch. I really want to know how it could parasitize a mantid.


----------



## massaman

could do it a number of ways

but its the wasps that are more likely to paralyze its victims and one guess I have is t hat the mantids eat it and if there is any eggs in the fly that dont get digested prob slowly develop or something like that or lays eggs on plants or vegetation and the mantis or other kind of insect crosses that vegetation and gets infected or the maggots ambush the mantids somehow and get inside but that may be difficult or if a mantis has a wound the fly would somehow quickly lay its eggs on the wound area or something and drop off the eggs or any other kind of way!But I was wondering if since the colder weather os a;ready here can the flies handle the weather and look for places to lay their eggs or something for next year could also be a guess and someone feeds them to the mantids and they get infected thats what I think is happening to 2 of my europeans since kind of odd that only got 3 ooths from one female and one from the other and then they become almost like they were after they became adults which is thin and my one adult looks like it has a large brown area under its wing tip which looks like where a parasite is inside or something too near its sexual area!


----------



## ismart

massaman said:


> could do it a number of waysbut its the wasps that are more likely to paralyze its victims and one guess I have is t hat the mantids eat it and if there is any eggs in the fly that dont get digested prob slowly develop or something like that or lays eggs on plants or vegetation and the mantis or other kind of insect crosses that vegetation and gets infected or the maggots ambush the mantids somehow and get inside but that may be difficult or if a mantis has a wound the fly would somehow quickly lay its eggs on the wound area or something and drop off the eggs or any other kind of way!But I was wondering if since the colder weather os a;ready here can the flies handle the weather and look for places to lay their eggs or something for next year could also be a guess and someone feeds them to the mantids and they get infected thats what I think is happening to 2 of my europeans since kind of odd that only got 3 ooths from one female and one from the other and then they become almost like they were after they became adults which is thin and my one adult looks like it has a large brown area under its wing tip which looks like where a parasite is inside or something too near its sexual area!


Unfortunately we will not find out how the mantids are infected until some one can properly ID the fly. At least we are one step closer to finding out how all this goes down.

Your mantids do not have any parasites in them. :lol:


----------



## massaman

dont know one day they are fat and looking like they could lay a ooth and few days later they suddenly havea quick weight loss and this has to be either a parasite or something as dont know if mantids lose weight this quickly without laying ooths or anything!


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## ismart

How often are you feeding them? I would highly doubt they have any parasites. how long have you had these mantids anyway?


----------



## massaman

I feed them every day along with my other mantids just about and they have crickets in their cages and also give them flies and have had these two europeans since maybe the middle or the end of summer just about and ones green colored and other is brown and the green one laid around 3 ooths and the brown one only one ooth!


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## massaman

had these since they were both sub adults so they both are maybe around 3 months old or less!


----------



## ismart

They do not have any parasites in them. If they are laying ooths than that would be a sign they are doing quite well. Not to mention you have had them way to long already. These two parasites clearly have a pretty quick life cycle.


----------



## massaman

in that case they prob just not as hungry as they use to be in their old age perhaps!


----------



## Rick

Ntsees said:


> That was what I was thinking too but I don't know if Rick wants to do that. I mean, just look at it. I'm almost positive that if you put that with a mantid, that fly will be lunch. I really want to know how it could parasitize a mantid.


I've thought about it but I think it would be hard in an enclosed space. I am pretty sure the fly will become lunch. I do plan on making a display with the mantis, fly case, and the fly itself. Not hard to see how it could get to a mantis. The fly is very small. All it has to do is fly in from behind and land on the mantis.

I have wondered if these flies overwinter as right now seems a bad time to eclose. It only took a couple weeks.


----------



## Ntsees

Rick said:


> ...I have wondered if these flies overwinter as right now seems a bad time to eclose. It only took a couple weeks.


My only educational guess is that the flies were inside in a warm environment that's why they came out. If they were outside, they'd still be a pupae.


----------



## ismart

Ntsees said:


> My only educational guess is that the flies were inside in a warm environment that's why they came out. If they were outside, they'd still be a pupae.


+1

They would probally overwinter in soil or leaf litter.


----------



## joossa

Very interesting! Thanks for the follow-up, Rick.


----------



## PhilinYuma

Ntsees said:


> My only educational guess is that the flies were inside in a warm environment that's why they came out. If they were outside, they'd still be a pupae.


Yep. As Ismart says, in the Frozen North, but they can find prey year round down here.


----------



## Rick

I'll tell you what is weird. Five maggots come out of the one mantis. When they eclosed there were six flies in the container. Today there are at least eight. So there must have been more that were inside the dead mantis.


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## Ntsees

Rick said:


> I'll tell you what is weird. Five maggots come out of the one mantis. When they eclosed there were six flies in the container. Today there are at least eight. So there must have been more that were inside the dead mantis.


Now it makes me wonder if another larvae will pop out from your other mantid (the one that lived = amazing). You're going to have a nice display, mantids and parasites.


----------



## Rick

Ntsees said:


> Now it makes me wonder if another larvae will pop out from your other mantid (the one that lived = amazing). You're going to have a nice display, mantids and parasites.


In that case I don't think so.


----------



## MantidLord

Okay, I don't know what the heck is going on, but a mantis that I found a couple of days ago (Iris oratoria) had a parasite come out of her. The only thing is I never saw the maggot but as you can see, she looks similar to the other ones. Can anyone I.D. this because I don't know if it's spreading or what. And Rick, can you get a closer pic of the flies so we can get a size reference? Also, I'm starting to wonder if this thread should be a sticky in health section just because it's so informative and seemingly urgent. I mean, I've had oratorias for years and all of a sudden this one has the parasite.

Hours before parasite came out, seemed sluggish and dying.







After parasite came out and mantis was still somewhat alive.


----------



## ismart

Where is the parasite that came out of the mantis?


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## MantidLord

ismart said:


> Where is the parasite that came out of the mantis?


I don't know. I looked inside the container and I couldn't find any maggots or pupae things. All I saw were cricket parts littered here and there. I went back again today and saw nothing.

Oh and just another side note. That same mantis when I caught it, "laid" two ooths. One was some small thing and the other was this: Obviously different than the standard I. oratoria ooth. This was laid a week before it died. The normal standard ooth (laid by a different female) is on the bottom.

Oops I forgot to upload them


----------



## Christian

Man, I wish I would find as many parasitized mantids as you do! I only found one with a horsehair worm and one with a fly maggot years ago and never since. &lt;_&lt;


----------



## Rick

MantidLord said:


> I don't know. I looked inside the container and I couldn't find any maggots or pupae things. All I saw were cricket parts littered here and there. I went back again today and saw nothing. Oh and just another side note. That same mantis when I caught it, "laid" two ooths. One was some small thing and the other was this: Obviously different than the standard I. oratoria ooth. This was laid a week before it died. The normal standard ooth (laid by a different female) is on the bottom.


If you don't see it then I would think it was something else. If it came out of it in an enclosed space I would think you would be able to find it.


----------



## superfreak

looks like it laid only the egg mass and no foam. i have my doubts about a parasitized mantid being able to lay even this sickly looking ooth as id assume the parasite would eat the eggs.


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## Ntsees

MantidLord said:


>


You know, if you manage to keep your mantids alive long enough, they'll start to lay ooths like that even when they are not parasitized. Mines usually start laying ooths like that if they survive until next year (naturally, they're supposed to die earlier).


----------



## Rick

Ntsees said:


> You know, if you manage to keep your mantids alive long enough, they'll start to lay ooths like that even when they are not parasitized. Mines usually start laying ooths like that if they survive until next year (naturally, they're supposed to die earlier).


Yep. I have had that before too. Don't think it has anything to do with this topic.


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## Ntsees

Ok, back to topic. Rick, have you killed the flies for display or are they still alive (if they are still alive, what are you planning to do?)? Have you managed to I.D. those flies as well?


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## ismart

I'm also very curious on what this species of fly is called? Not to mention what other insect hosts these guy infect.


----------



## Rick

Ntsees said:


> Ok, back to topic. Rick, have you killed the flies for display or are they still alive (if they are still alive, what are you planning to do?)? Have you managed to I.D. those flies as well?


Still alive. I plan on finding out what they are but just haven't had time yet. Plan on it this weekend.


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## MantidLord

Okay, I see what you guys are saying. But that female was caught as an adult outside so I doubt that ooth is due to old age as it most likely wouldn't have made it that long in the wild. Though the parasite could have eaten the eggs, we don't know that for sure simply because most of the infected have either been sub-adult or non mated or unknown. Second, I can find no other explanation to that gaping hole appearing in her abdomen and the exact same and similar looking spot to the infected mantids. Furthermore, it is possible that the maggot pupated and my blind eyes just can't see them among the cricket parts.

Moving on, I look forward to seeing a comparison pic of the flies next to something we can all be familiar with. Also I still think this should be a sticky because 1) we don't know what the heck this is, 2) we don't know where it came from so it could have been brought over, 3) We don't know all what insects it infects, and 4) it seems like more than a coincidence that these things are popping up at the same time.


----------



## Rick

MantidLord said:


> Okay, I see what you guys are saying. But that female was caught as an adult outside so I doubt that ooth is due to old age as it most likely wouldn't have made it that long in the wild. Though the parasite could have eaten the eggs, we don't know that for sure simply because most of the infected have either been sub-adult or non mated or unknown. Second, I can find no other explanation to that gaping hole appearing in her abdomen and the exact same and similar looking spot to the infected mantids. Furthermore, it is possible that the maggot pupated and my blind eyes just can't see them among the cricket parts. Moving on, I look forward to seeing a comparison pic of the flies next to something we can all be familiar with. Also I still think this should be a sticky because 1) we don't know what the heck this is, 2) we don't know where it came from so it could have been brought over, 3) We don't know all what insects it infects, and 4) it seems like more than a coincidence that these things are popping up at the same time.


I have had ooths like that from all kinds of mantids. It is not related to the parasite. It seems that every infected one I have ever found was a nymph late in the year. I agree the hole looks the same however you would see them in the bottom. If you haven't already then dump it all out and look through it. They are very obvious. This is nothing new, it is a fairly common occurrence. You act worried about this which I don't understand.


----------



## MantidLord

Rick said:


> I have had ooths like that from all kinds of mantids. It is not related to the parasite. It seems that every infected one I have ever found was a nymph late in the year. I agree the hole looks the same however you would see them in the bottom. If you haven't already then dump it all out and look through it. They are very obvious. This is nothing new, it is a fairly common occurrence. You act worried about this which I don't understand.


I'm far from worried, as my population isn't fed on wild feeders so I know that they won't be infected. I'm just extremely curious is all. I didn't know it was so common because when I look through the health section, I see nothing talking of the sorts, maybe the horse hair worm but that's all. Especially considering that this is by far one of the largest threads in this section (and possibly the whole mantis section) on this forum currently. And if it's so common, why is it that it's not Identified yet. But regardless of all that, my individual may not have been infected, in fact I hope it wasn't. But keep in mind that Joosa put a pic of an adult oratoria that was infected. So it probably doesn't just infect nymphs. I would guess it depends on when the mantis was infected itself.

And by the way, I'm not trying to offend anyone, I just want to be clear. And it seems the only thing pointing my mantis away from having been infected is the lack of the parasite, which is understandable but hey, some things can't be explained.


----------



## Rick

MantidLord said:


> I'm far from worried, as my population isn't fed on wild feeders so I know that they won't be infected. I'm just extremely curious is all. I didn't know it was so common because when I look through the health section, I see nothing talking of the sorts, maybe the horse hair worm but that's all. Especially considering that this is by far one of the largest threads in this section (and possibly the whole mantis section) on this forum currently. And if it's so common, why is it that it's not Identified yet. But regardless of all that, my individual may not have been infected, in fact I hope it wasn't. But keep in mind that Joosa put a pic of an adult oratoria that was infected. So it probably doesn't just infect nymphs. I would guess it depends on when the mantis was infected itself. And by the way, I'm not trying to offend anyone, I just want to be clear. And it seems the only thing pointing my mantis away from having been infected is the lack of the parasite, which is understandable but hey, some things can't be explained.


Feeding on wild feeders would have nothing to do with this particular case. I have mentioned these type parasites many times because I woudl find the infected mantids when I was a kid. I am sure these are known parasites. I have not id'd the flies but I will give it a go. They are very unremarkable looking little flies.

Do you think a rogue cricket got a hold of your mantis? I always hear people talking about crickets eating on mantids though I have not seen it personally.


----------



## MantidLord

Rick said:


> Feeding on wild feeders would have nothing to do with this particular case. I have mentioned these type parasites many times because I woudl find the infected mantids when I was a kid. I am sure these are known parasites. I have not id'd the flies but I will give it a go. They are very unremarkable looking little flies.Do you think a rogue cricket got a hold of your mantis? I always hear people talking about crickets eating on mantids though I have not seen it personally.


Okay, for some reason I was stuck on the idea of the parasite being transferred through food, sorry about that. I just think it's interesting how you always find them (among other members) but then other members don't. I'm wondering if it's a climate thing or what. I just know that new members and hobbyists will come in contact with some parasite and it may be useful if we have a thread so they can easily refer to, reassuring them that it's common and so forth.

As far as the rogue cricket, no the container was empty and the only thing moving when I saw the mantis two hours later, was the "breathing" abdomen of a cricket that was previously devoured. It flashed my mind that the cricket came out of the mantis but then I regained intelligence and decided that wasn't the case. But I must say that that mantis did seem sluggish before the incident which is exactly why I used it to take that picture with the wings (because me taking that picture was for a completely different purpose). And you can see the black mark on the abdomen too. I don't know if it has any correlation with what happened but those are just the facts. I too have never had a cricket eat a mantis even during molts (though I know it's possible).


----------



## massaman

am sure that other insects get infected just as much as the mantis like katydids or crickets or giant grasshoppers besides just the mantis but also wonder if since the cold weather is coming could some of these so called parasitic flies lay their eggs on tree bark or anything to be overwintered if thats even a possibility for the next season!


----------



## hibiscusmile

I would think that the mantis that Rick found had an injury and the fly had landed on the mantis and just laid eggs in the injured spot. After all they do that with any animal or human where an injury is open, nothing new there.

I only say that because if it is just a fly as it seems, then this would be the case. Phil do you concure?


----------



## MantidLord

hibiscusmile said:


> I would think that the mantis that Rick found had an injury and the fly had landed on the mantis and just laid eggs in the injured spot. After all they do that with any animal or human where an injury is open, nothing new there.I only say that because if it is just a fly as it seems, then this would be the case. Phil do you concure?


That's possible and it makes since, but then Rick must find *a lot* of injured mantids.


----------



## PhilinYuma

MantidLord said:


> I'm far from worried, as my population isn't fed on wild feeders so I know that they won't be infected. I'm just extremely curious is all. I didn't know it was so common because when I look through the health section, I see nothing talking of the sorts, maybe the horse hair worm but that's all. Especially considering that this is by far one of the largest threads in this section (and possibly the whole mantis section) on this forum currently. And if it's so common, why is it that it's not Identified yet. But regardless of all that, my individual may not have been infected, in fact I hope it wasn't. But keep in mind that Joosa put a pic of an adult oratoria that was infected. So it probably doesn't just infect nymphs. I would guess it depends on when the mantis was infected itself. And by the way, I'm not trying to offend anyone, I just want to be clear. And it seems the only thing pointing my mantis away from having been infected is the lack of the parasite, which is understandable but hey, some things can't be explained.


Yes, you ask some good questions.

First, as Christian mentioned, there are three families of parasitoid flies the Sarcophagidae, Nemestrinidae and Tachinidae. I think (guess) that Rick's come from the last family because of the "neck" that separates the head from the thorax. They are (external) ectoparasites that lay their eggs on the body of their host, and may use a number of different hosts, like grasshoppers, beetles, true bugs and mantids.

The newly hatched larva uses an enzyme that softens the host's defensive cuticle, and burrows it's way in. It does not enter the host's digestive tract by any other manner. The eggs of an eaten fly would be digested by the mantis.

So, 1)Yes, we do know what the parasites are, if not the exact species. 2)We know where they come from. There are quite enough indigenous parasites to obviate the need for worrying about imported ones. 3) We probably don't know all of the insects parasitized by one family of flies, but we know that some directly parasitize mantids and that a mantis can't "catch" a parasite from eating infested prey, so this is not a very pressing issue. 4) It's not a coincidence that parasites are emerging from their hosts at this time of year. The hosts have served their usefulness, and in climates too cold to supply a new generation of flies with hosts immediately, the flies will overwinter as pupae.

I know that this repeats a lot of stuff that has gone before, but I hope that it pulls some of it together.


----------



## MantidLord

PhilinYuma said:


> Yes, you ask some good questions.First, as Christian mentioned, there are three families of parasitoid flies the Sarcophagidae, Nemestrinidae and Tachinidae. I think (guess) that Rick's come from the last family because of the "neck" that separates the head from the thorax. They are (external) ectoparasites that lay their eggs on the body of their host, and may use a number of different hosts, like grasshoppers, beetles, true bugs and mantids.
> 
> The newly hatched larva uses an enzyme that softens the host's defensive cuticle, and burrows it's way in. It does not enter the host's digestive tract by any other manner. The eggs of an eaten fly would be digested by the mantis.
> 
> So, 1)Yes, we do know what the parasites are, if not the exact species. 2)We know where they come from. There are quite enough indigenous parasites to obviate the need for worrying about imported ones. 3) We probably don't know all of the insects parasitized by one family of flies, but we know that some directly parasitize mantids and that a mantis can't "catch" a parasite from eating infested prey, so this is not a very pressing issue. 4) It's not a coincidence that parasites are emerging from their hosts at this time of year. The hosts have served their usefulness, and in climates too cold to supply a new generation of flies with hosts immediately, the flies will overwinter as pupae.
> 
> I know that this repeats a lot of stuff that has gone before, but I hope that it pulls some of it together.


Wow, thanks a lot Phil. That answered all my questions and then some. So I take it the fly lays on the mantis when it is weak or when it is molting? Or does it simply over power the mantis? And one that just popped into my head, why does it stunt the growth of the mantis? I'm thinking that it's taking nutrients away from it but I don't want to assume.


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## Peter Clausen

Mantidlord,

It is possible that your _I. oratoria_ ate the larva that emerged from its abdomen. In nature, the larva would fall and burrow into the ground. In captivity, the larva might not get as far. Also, the recurring point about the fly overpowing the mantis is curious. A mosquito, for example, has evolved several ways of sneaking up on you without needing to overpower you. Parasites are sneaky. Individuals that aren't sneaky don't pass on their genes. Individuals that do may have an opportunity to improve upon their stealth. Simple as that.

I like your theory about stunted growth. If a mantis is devoting energy to fighting off this parasite, it makes sense that it may not grow as quickly.

(we'll pin/sticky this thread when it has concluded)


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## MantidLord

Peter said:


> Mantidlord, It is possible that your _I. oratoria_ ate the larva that emerged from its abdomen. In nature, the larva would fall and burrow into the ground. In captivity, the larva might not get as far. Also, the recurring point about the fly overpowing the mantis is curious. A mosquito, for example, has evolved several ways of sneaking up on you without needing to overpower you. Parasites are sneaky. Individuals that aren't sneaky don't pass on their genes. Individuals that do may have an opportunity to improve upon their stealth. Simple as that.
> 
> I like your theory about stunted growth. If a mantis is devoting energy to fighting off this parasite, it makes sense that it may not grow as quickly.
> 
> (we'll pin/sticky this thread when it has concluded)


Thanks Peter, that did cross my mind that the parasite may have been eaten but I figured what mantis would be worried about food when a parasite just burst through its abdomen, but you never know. True that mosquitoes use stealth for us and other mammals but I'm curious to see how something would sneak up on a mantis. I know at times they seem oblivious to things and my be "daydreaming" but for something to come up to it and lay its eggs on a mantis is something I'd like to see. Sneaky or not, those flies are pretty daring.

I would think that if someone were to breed the flies and sacrifice a mantis "for the sake of science" to the flies, we would learn a lot more about this parasite. But what we know now is pretty informative. And thanks for listening


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## Peter Clausen

Didn't you say you saw a half eaten cricket at the time you found the mantis? I wouldn't put it past a mantis to continue to want food, despite a gaping hole in its abdomen. Eating is what they do. We also know what males do when they literally lose their heads!

It's not so much a matter of daring for these flies. It's what they do. I'd like to see it too! Maybe I'll go catch some of these tachinids in my backyard and sacrifice a few horse lubber grasshoppers to the cause. I do have a _M. religiosa_ female that could "volunteer" too!


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## Rick

MantidLord said:


> Wow, thanks a lot Phil. That answered all my questions and then some. So I take it the fly lays on the mantis when it is weak or when it is molting? Or does it simply over power the mantis? And one that just popped into my head, why does it stunt the growth of the mantis? I'm thinking that it's taking nutrients away from it but I don't want to assume.


Pretty simple actually like I said before. The fly probably just comes up from behind and lands on the mantis. I see flies landing on mantids all the time. These are nymphs so they don't have wings to use in flicking the fly off. It would be very easy for the fly to do. All of the ones I find with parasites are nymphs when everyone else is adult. That in and of itself tells you that it stunts their growth. Keep in mind I have two types here. The eight small flies that killed the mantis and the one large one that did not kill the host. I am going to put the flies in with a mantis but I suspect they will be eaten. I am still waiting on the big fly to eclose.


----------



## Ntsees

MantidLord said:


> ...the only thing moving when I saw the mantis two hours later, was the "breathing" abdomen of a cricket that was previously devoured....


Wait a sec. Peter pointed out something interesting. Are you sure that that "breathing" abdomen was from a cricket? It could be from a cricket, but then again, it could be the parasite (where it may look like the abdomen). Do you have crickets in the cage with the mantid (I hope the crickets didn't finish off the parasite before you got to it)?


----------



## Rick

Here is what I did to make a display:







Close up of the fly:


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## ismart

Cool! B) Now you have a new display for bugfest next year!


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## Rick

ismart said:


> Cool! B) Now you have a new display for bugfest next year!


Exactly. That was the plan. I need to find something to put it in though.

The fly looks more like sarcophagidae based on the pics over at bugguide but I didn't find an exact match. One of the flies looks a lot different than the other ones. Wonder why that is?


----------



## ismart

It looks kinda like Tachinidae Exoristinae to me. Type that in the seach feature in bugnet, and tell me what you think?


----------



## ismart

Rick said:


> One of the flies looks a lot different than the other ones. Wonder why that is?


Do you have a pic of that one?


----------



## PhilinYuma

Rick said:


> Exactly. That was the plan. I need to find something to put it in though. The fly looks more like sarcophagidae based on the pics over at bugguide but I didn't find an exact match. One of the flies looks a lot different than the other ones. Wonder why that is?


Sarcophogids for sure From above, you can see those three (as opposed to four) stripes down the thorax. Parasitic flies and wasps usually leave a pheromone "marker" when they parasitize a host so that it doesn't become infested with more parasites than the host can support. Even other species can often identify these markers, but perhaps the parent of the larger parasite had a cold and couldn't smell the pheromones.


----------



## Rick

ismart said:


> Do you have a pic of that one?


It has red eyes and the eyes are closer together. Also has a darker body. In the second pic it is the one on the far left.


----------



## Rick

ismart said:


> It looks kinda like Tachinidae Exoristinae to me. Type that in the seach feature in bugnet, and tell me what you think?


Kinda but it seems different. There are so many flies..........


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## ismart

Rick said:


> Kinda but it seems different. There are so many flies..........


Very true! After reading phil's post i did not even realize Sarcophgidae can also be parasites to other insects as well. I guess the only way we will really find out is if an entomologist can properly identify it. Rick, have you given any thought to sending one of the flies out to get an ID?


----------



## Rick

ismart said:


> Very true! After reading phil's post i did not even realize Sarcophgidae can also be parasites to other insects as well. I guess the only way we will really find out is if an entomologist can properly identify it. Rick, have you given any thought to sending one of the flies out to get an ID?


Nah. I posted a pic on bugguide though.


----------



## MantidLord

@Peter: that's true, I guess even after two hours of the parasite coming out, it could have eaten it. But I wonder why the mantis didn't die. She was still on the branch when I found her though she was definitely on her way out. And I love how the religiosa female may "volunteer" for the job.

@Rick: yeah I see how that could happen to the mantis now. Makes complete since. I guess my lack of knowledge of the insects around mantids made me forget how easy it is for some species to take advantage of them.

@Ntsees: Yeah, it was from a cricket. The cricket was actually devoured by my Mantis religiosa female and I swapped her and the oratoria containers because I was worried about the oratoria female. Besides, the abdomen was way to large to have come out of that small hole.

Glad we got the ID of the species, and good job making a display Rick.


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## Rick

Thanks. I am going to add the other one to it once it ecloses.


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## yen_saw

Now I know what killed the mantis nymph I found in MO. bad flies :angry: !! this is like the ultimate revenge for the flies, amazing stuff.


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## massaman

I think most of the flies around where I live are trying to find a place to overwinter their maggots as one of my mantids was eating a fly captured outside and close to the end of fly err the last piece of fly the mantis dropped there were several real small maggots that dropped to the bottom of the enclosure and these were smaller then a grain of rice and little smaller then a fruit fly!


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## massaman

The developmental response of flesh flies

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t8007703r55312m4/

A study of flesh flies

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/rep...port-85183.html


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## Rick

These parasitic wasps came out of an ooth I collected a couple weeks ago:







Hole where one emerged:


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## Ntsees

Rick said:


> These parasitic wasps came out of an ooth I collected a couple weeks ago....


How many wasps came out?


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## ismart

Jeeze Rick! You have a cesspool of mantid parasites by you! :lol: There even attacking introduced species!


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## massaman

kind of like me I am near wooded areas and its just chop full of parasitic flies but have not seen many wasps!


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## Rick

Ntsees said:


> How many wasps came out?


Not sure yet. The ooth was sent to another member and he reported it to me.


----------



## Peter Clausen

I'm still looking forward to seeing what comes out of that other larger pupa you shared, Rick. I found a very similar, but larger, pupa on the ground in Arizona a few months back. It had that same neck-like breathing tube (if that's what it is?). I saved it, but it's packed in my bug freezer somewhere.

Oh! Flies in the freezer...gotta run...


----------



## Rick

Peter said:


> I'm still looking forward to seeing what comes out of that other larger pupa you shared, Rick. I found a very similar, but larger, pupa on the ground in Arizona a few months back. It had that same neck-like breathing tube (if that's what it is?). I saved it, but it's packed in my bug freezer somewhere.Oh! Flies in the freezer...gotta run...


Ya gotta set a timer Peter! :lol: 

Still waiting on that one to emerge.


----------



## revmdn

Ntsees said:


> How many wasps came out?


About a dozen so far. A bunch more holes also.


----------



## Ntsees

revmdn said:


> About a dozen so far. A bunch more holes also.


Are you going to find out if any nymphs will hatch from the ooth? I wonder if there were any eggs that were not eaten.


----------



## Christian

Prasitized ooths usually still hatch!


----------



## Rick

Christian said:


> Prasitized ooths usually still hatch!


That's what I told him. I sent him another one as a courtesy. I found several old, hatched ooths with the same holes in the sides.


----------



## revmdn

Yeah, I'm still trying to hatch it. But there are still wasps coming out.


----------



## ismart

revmdn said:


> Yeah, I'm still trying to hatch it. But there are still wasps coming out.


No worries,  that ooth probally has over a hundred nymphs in it easy!


----------



## Ntsees

ismart said:


> No worries,  that ooth probally has over a hundred nymphs in it easy!


Yeah, I was thinking that too. What was on my mind was that will the parasites unknowingly "save" some nymphs so that the species will be able to egg-parasitize the mantids again in the future- basically, not trying to completely eliminate the host progeny. If no mantids hatch, then woah, we have something that can effectively eliminate mantids  .


----------



## Rick

Ntsees said:


> Yeah, I was thinking that too. What was on my mind was that will the parasites unknowingly "save" some nymphs so that the species will be able to egg-parasitize the mantids again in the future- basically, not trying to completely eliminate the host progeny. If no mantids hatch, then woah, we have something that can effectively eliminate mantids  .


That is probably the case. Gotta let some live.


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## Rick

Couple pics of a narrow winged mantis ooth from the field. Seems the wasps hatch out before winter hits. I saw this on these ooths and s. carolina ooths. No evidence of it on the chinese ooths. I wonder if their thick foam prevents the wasps from laying eggs in them? Also, I wonder if that helps explain their ever increasing numbers over the others? Click the pics to enlarge.


----------



## kamakiri

Rick said:


> No evidence of it on the chinese ooths. I wonder if their thick foam prevents the wasps from laying eggs in them? Also, I wonder if that helps explain their ever increasing numbers over the others? Click the pics to enlarge.


The thicker foam might be the main preventer. In that second pic you can see the wasp's ovipositor is long, but may not be long enough to penetrate into the Chinese egg chamber.

This wasp also likely evolved with the native mantises and there could be other cues that draw the wasp to these particular ooths. Size, shape, pheromone...finding that out would be a cool experiment. And there lies the danger of introduced species without their natural predators. Thicker foam may be partly why sinensis and religiosa have done so well here in the US.

Great thread to follow! Thanks to Rick and all the contributors.


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## revmdn

Mine looks just like that one with all the holes in it, crazy. Over 24 wasps so far.


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## MantidLord

kamakiri said:


> The thicker foam might be the main preventer. In that second pic you can see the wasp's ovipositor is long, but may not be long enough to penetrate into the Chinese egg chamber.This wasp also likely evolved with the native mantises and there could be other cues that draw the wasp to these particular ooths. Size, shape, pheromone...finding that out would be a cool experiment. And there lies the danger of introduced species without their natural predators. Thicker foam may be partly why sinensis and religiosa have done so well here in the US.
> 
> Great thread to follow! Thanks to Rick and all the contributors.


That would be an interesting experiment. Place some parasitic wasps in the same enclosure as sinensis or religiosa ooths and see what happens compared to ooths of stagmomantis sp.


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## hibiscusmile

Rick, I have had chinese ooths sent to me with the parasite holes, don't seem to find them here though, but have had plenty.


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## hibiscusmile

Oh yea, Andrew, did u post the pick with the maggots in the stomach? Oh and How Gross!


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## MantidLord

hibiscusmile said:


> Oh yea, Andrew, did u post the pick with the maggots in the stomach? Oh and How Gross!


+1 I'm waiting for those. You should raise and not kill them off.


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## Rick

hibiscusmile said:


> Rick, I have had chinese ooths sent to me with the parasite holes, don't seem to find them here though, but have had plenty.


Hmmm well maybe it is a regional thing. Answers that question though.


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## Rick

The mantis that hosted the single large parasite died. It wouldn't seem related to the parasite since it has been awhile since that emerged and she has molted and everything.


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## ismart

Hey Rick, did the single large parasite ever eclose?


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## Rick

ismart said:


> Hey Rick, did the single large parasite ever eclose?


Not yet. I hope it is still alive.


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## Ntsees

Rick said:


> The mantis that hosted the single large parasite died. It wouldn't seem related to the parasite since it has been awhile since that emerged and she has molted and everything.


That was quite some time before it died. I'm surprised to learn that it even molted.


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## ismart

Ntsees said:


> That was quite some time before it died. I'm surprised to learn that it even molted.


I'm also surprised as well! All my mantids died within a few days after the parasite emerged. That carolina must of had a strong will to survive!


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## Rick

ismart said:


> I'm also surprised as well! All my mantids died within a few days after the parasite emerged. That carolina must of had a strong will to survive!


Well the one with eight small ones died because they ripped a gaping hole in the abdomen. The other mantis with the one large parasite didn't do that. I don't think the parasite was the cause of death. It acted normally up until this point, even molting once. I think it died from something unrelated but then again you never know.


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## ABbuggin

MantidLord said:


> +1 I'm waiting for those. You should raise and not kill them off.


Sorry, never had a chance to take any. I noticed them right before I got sick. I was completely worthless for a few days.


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## revmdn

Rick said:


> These parasitic wasps came out of an ooth I collected a couple weeks ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hole where one emerged:


Well, mantis nymphs finally started coming out. Only two so far. Wasps have been coming out the whole time and still are. I will let ya'll know the mantis count when it's over.


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## PhilinYuma

revmdn said:


> Well, mantis nymphs finally started coming out. Only two so far. Wasps have been coming out the whole time and still are. I will let ya'll know the mantis count when it's over.


Is tht the cutest thing or not? What are you going to call him/her?


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## revmdn

PhilinYuma said:


> Is tht the cutest thing or not? What are you going to call him/her?


I think lucky would be a good name for these two. Or maybe unlucky. :lol:


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