# Where there's a will....



## PhilinYuma (Aug 23, 2009)

Here's a phenomenon that has been witnessed by many experienced breeders but is important enough to bear repeating here. I placed a well fed female H. membranacea in the bathtub earlier this evening and introduced the male from behind. He was a "sneaker," approaching from behind and freezing every time she looked at him. She appeared to be receptive and could be seen to be releasing pheromones (or so I believe) and snatching up a passing cricket. The male perhaps, became overconfident and moved to one side of the female with one medial leg on her abdomen. And that was that. She turned her head around and bit his head off. There was no question of "saving" the male, his head was gone as I watched.

I had two options (three, actually, if you include cursing and bashing at the female). One was to put a second male on her as soon as she had finished eating male #1, or to try to get the headless male to copulate. We've all read accounts of the headless male leaping on top of the female and engaging in copulation, but this was not one of those situations. This was because she had him in a head lock (or headless lock) in her right raptorial arm, and it was impossible to get him properly mounted. With my faithful paintbrush, I manipulated the tip of his abdomen so that it touched her cerci and copulation began right away.

It is clear that the female "wished" to copulate. By doing so, she limited the amount of the male that she could eat and could only reach back far enough to eat most of the pronotum. After an hour of copulation, though, she pulled him forward, breaking the genital contact and finished eating him.

I mention this not to give an account of what most of us have seen all to often, but to point out that it is possible to initiate copulation by the manipulation of the male"s abdomen so that his genitalia connects with that of the female. This in turn means the difference between a sterile widow and a new generation.

Good luck!


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## kamakiri (Aug 23, 2009)

...too bad you didn't have a picture of it...I would have framed and labelled it:

P E R S I S T E N C E


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## MantidLord (Aug 23, 2009)

But once the head is gone this gives a signal to begin copulation. But in your case his attempts were futile so you helped him out. Cool. And the fact that this occurs, does that mean the male mantis has adapted to getting his head chewed off by females?


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## Ark[email protected] (Aug 23, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]Wow Phil I am just wowed a pic would of been so cool.[/SIZE]


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## superfreak (Aug 23, 2009)

haha *claps* this made my day


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 23, 2009)

Phil, u the man! I find that they will do it even when in the bottom of the cage and after a whole evening there. All I do it put them on the females back and usually the rest takes place. I never mention it, afraid someone will get upset -_- but it's the truth anyways!


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## Rick (Aug 23, 2009)

I've done it. It is NOT easy though. If he is already mating and gets eaten there is no problem usually. But if he isn't then it can be very difficult to get them to connect since the male will be writhing around. I think I have done it twice. Why did you let her eat him? I've had them grab males in front of me but I just seperate them.


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## massaman (Aug 23, 2009)

Picture of a headless male mantis mating?

Dont think that would be good to post in case some kids get the jitters seeing that imagery!


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 23, 2009)

I'v done it dozens of times, usually it works, but sometimes it doesn't and that is usually because he won't hold on, if he holds on you have a good chance of it working.


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## revmdn (Aug 23, 2009)

In my limited mating experience, I feed the female till she refused food then introduced the male. No deaths yet. No hatched ooths yet either.


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## Katnapper (Aug 23, 2009)

I tried it once with a male who'd very recently got his head eaten off by a cage-mate (another male). I tried to put the headless male on the female's back. But she kept running off, and he kept flailing around and wouldn't hang on. I got tired of trying and eventually gave him to her to just eat. Glad to know it can work sometimes though!! Great post, Phil!


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 23, 2009)

revmdn said:


> In my limited mating experience, I feed the female till she refused food then introduced the male. No deaths yet. No hatched ooths yet either.


u to fynny :lol: , lucky Nora!


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## Ntsees (Aug 23, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> Phil, u the man! I find that they will do it even when in the bottom of the cage and after a whole evening there. All I do it put them on the females back and usually the rest takes place. I never mention it, afraid someone will get upset -_- but it's the truth anyways!


I find that there is no reason for anyone to get upset over that. When we are down to the very last pair of our sometimes expensive/rare mantids, we have to do whatever it takes to make sure it's a success. As for myself, I practice that technique often when I don't have time to sit and watch every slow move the male makes which may take a long time. Not only that, if there's a connection, then you know it's a success even if the male gets eaten afterwards (better than the male sneaking in and gets eaten before any copulation took place).


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## ismart (Aug 24, 2009)

I have had a few males after getting his head lopped off, or eaten still mange to copulate. I know some people actully behead the males themselves to initiate mating!  Don't worry i won't say any names.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 24, 2009)

Oh My!


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## Ntsees (Aug 24, 2009)

ismart said:


> I have had a few males after getting his head lopped off, or eaten still mange to copulate. I know some people actully behead the males themselves to initiate mating!  Don't worry i won't say any names.


Hmm...I didn't know that some people do that just to initiate mating. I've read once in a peer-reviewed article where a professor states that this one type of mantid (forgot which) can only copulate only if it gets his head chopped off (I truly want to prove this professor wrong). Well, all I can say is "what a waste of a fine specimen". The male could have been used to copulate many more times.


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## jameslongo (Aug 24, 2009)

Well done, Phil. I'm glad you kept your composure &amp; thought it through. Can't say the same for the male because he didn't have a head  Ah, the power of instinct.

Now, strictly speaking it was not you that guided the male's abdomen to the female's but your faithful paintbrush. Careful it doesn't soak up all the limelight.

Buzz: Phil Rayner was the real hero here. He mated the decapitated male using this.

Man 1: Hey, what is that?

Man 2: It's an inanimate paintbrush!

Everyone: Yay!

[Time magazine cover: "In Paintbrush We Trust"]

:lol:


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## ismart (Aug 24, 2009)

Ntsees said:


> Hmm...I didn't know that some people do that just to initiate mating. I've read once in a peer-reviewed article where a professor states that this one type of mantid (forgot which) can only copulate only if it gets his head chopped off (I truly want to prove this professor wrong). Well, all I can say is "what a waste of a fine specimen". The male could have been used to copulate many more times.


Deffinetly try and find that article. I would love to know what species this experiment was conducted with.

Not to mention the only way you could prove him wrong is if you have a successful mating of the species he is referring to.


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## Ntsees (Aug 24, 2009)

ismart said:


> Deffinetly try and find that article. I would love to know what species this experiment was conducted with.Not to mention the only way you could prove him wrong is if you have a successful mating of the species he is referring to.


Yeah, I know. But, considering I read it many years ago, I'm guessing that there are now experiments that showed that he was wrong. I'll still try to find it.


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## ismart (Aug 24, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> Well done, Phil. I'm glad you kept your composure &amp; thought it through. Can't say the same for the male because he didn't have a head  Ah, the power of instinct.Now, strictly speaking it was not you that guided the male's abdomen to the female's but your faithful paintbrush. Careful it doesn't soak up all the limelight.
> 
> Buzz: Phil Rayner was the real hero here. He mated the decapitated male using this.
> 
> ...


 :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Phil may be onto something here. Phil, have you ever tried to tickle the males hyney with the painbrush while having his head still attached? Maybe the paintbrush will help to initiate copulation. A little mantis foreplay! :lol:


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## Katnapper (Aug 24, 2009)

ismart said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: Phil may be onto something here. Phil, have you ever tried to tickle the males hyney with the painbrush while having his head still attached? Maybe the paintbrush will help to initiate copulation. A little mantis foreplay! :lol:


So Paul, do you always speak from experience too?




Gotcha....hehe....


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## ismart (Aug 24, 2009)

Katnapper said:


> So Paul, do you always speak from experience too?
> 
> 
> 
> Gotcha....hehe....


Yep!  :lol: :lol:


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## massaman (Aug 25, 2009)

i think i got the article and posted the link but it said the european (religiosa) mantis i think is the one that can only mate with his head removed!


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## Ntsees (Aug 25, 2009)

massaman said:


> i think i got the article and posted the link but it said the european (religiosa) mantis i think is the one that can only mate with his head removed!


Really!? I guess this is easier than I thought. Without having to do any experiment, I've (and I'm sure many others as well) already proven that wrong years and years ago with my attempts. Those matings were a success and the male always escaped with his head. Also, I've seen it in the wild. Not only that, the oothecaes were fertile and many young hatched. But unfortunately, like how it was mentioned in this forum how Europeans are hard to bring up, the many many instars died young.


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## hibiscusmile (Aug 25, 2009)

ismart said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: Phil may be onto something here. Phil, have you ever tried to tickle the males hyney with the painbrush while having his head still attached? Maybe the paintbrush will help to initiate copulation. A little mantis foreplay! :lol:


as our faithful Mrs Doubtfire would say "HOLD ON EFFIE!" :lol:


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