# Huge size difference....



## yeatzee (Oct 13, 2008)

Well I currently have 4 adult female stagmomantis californica's ........and they all vary in size by quite a bit. here's a picture of my second biggest and smallest:





Is this normal? All look the same besides color differences and Im about 99% sure they are all stagmomantis species.


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## hibiscusmile (Oct 13, 2008)

Dear me, other than being green they look just like my peacock mantis.


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## Andrew (Oct 13, 2008)

It's perfectly normal. I find the occasional giant S. limbata as well, in various color forms.


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## yeatzee (Oct 13, 2008)

It is obviously really really hard to keep them close to each other without eating eachother...especially because they are so hyper lol. Here's the best pic I could get of the smallest, second smallest, and second largest. It would have been chaos with the largest lol.


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## hibiscusmile (Oct 13, 2008)

Are u sure they are not peacocks? and I see they are on the couch, are they watching the new Spongebob? :lol:


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## yeatzee (Oct 13, 2008)

yea def. not peacocks.....I wish they were though lol. That would be sweet!


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## cloud jaguar (Oct 14, 2008)

Wow, those are some super cool looking S. Californicas! I especially like how these mantises look with a thin thorax and flower bud-like abdomen. I think that beige one is really neat. My wife and I now have 3 female S. Californicas - despite all being green, one is 3" long and 2 of them are about 2" long - they must vary in size some like you say. Do you find these only on flowers? We only found them on rose and zinnia. The green ones have pink lateral lines on the bellies - are yours like that? What highlight colors does the tan one have, yellow? Have you successfully bred these in the past?

~Arkanis


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## Rob Byatt (Oct 14, 2008)

hibiscusmile said:


> Are u sure they are not peacocks? and I see they are on the couch, are they watching the new Spongebob? :lol:


They look absolutely nothing like _Pseudempusa pinnapavonis_  It's like comparing _Mantis religiosa_ to _Cilnia humeralis_


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## hibiscusmile (Oct 14, 2008)

Well I dont see so good anymore. must be me old age! But the wings laying on the backs look the same to me. Need new glasses, Cokebottles, I heard that!


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## Rick (Oct 14, 2008)

While that is a big difference from the two it happens. Are they from the same ooth? I will try to post a pic tonight of when that happened to me.


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## yeatzee (Oct 14, 2008)

Arkanis said:


> Wow, those are some super cool looking S. Californicas! I especially like how these mantises look with a thin thorax and flower bud-like abdomen. I think that beige one is really neat. My wife and I now have 3 female S. Californicas - despite all being green, one is 3" long and 2 of them are about 2" long - they must vary in size some like you say. Do you find these only on flowers? We only found them on rose and zinnia. The green ones have pink lateral lines on the bellies - are yours like that? What highlight colors does the tan one have, yellow? Have you successfully bred these in the past?~Arkanis


Thanks! I catch them anywere. One was walking on our grass in the middle of the night, one was on a palm tree, the rest were on flowers or leaves.

I currently have four ooth's from them right now, and have a recently mated female that im waiting for her to lay. So yea I breed em. They are a fun species, as they tackle anything (TRUST ME!). I've had my biggest grab my finger and try to eat me twice lol. And all of these were caught in the wild as nymphs originally. I just got back into the breading game


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## Hypoponera (Oct 14, 2008)

While some size variation is normal, I have noticed that _S. limbata _tends to be noticibly larger then _S. californica_. Is it possible your larger females are _S.limbata_? Check the wing colors of all four. Are any of them lemon yellow? If so, those would be _S. limbata_.


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## kamakiri (Oct 14, 2008)

Well that's a surprise for captive raised mantids! Did they have noticably different appetites as nymphs?


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## cloud jaguar (Oct 14, 2008)

Hypoponera, I have a question: All of my S. Californicas have inner wings which are speckled clear and light yellow/green. ARE THESE CALIFORNICAs OR LIMTABAs ? How does the Californicas wings look if mine are limbatas?


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## yeatzee (Oct 15, 2008)

I was told on these forums that they were S. Californicas so are the wings the only way to check if its S. limbata or s. cali ?

I've only seen my largest ones wings up and it was because she got them stuck in sticky goo......it was yellow with a black spot.

Because, all look exactly the same exterior wise besides size and color. How can I get them to get their wings up? They dont get scared of anything including me or my dog


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## yeatzee (Oct 15, 2008)

Two of my females have laid ooths and they both look exactly the same...if I post picks will that help you classify them?


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## Hypoponera (Oct 16, 2008)

When it comes to the females, the two species can only be seperated by the color of the hind wings. _S. limbata _wings are a bright lemon-yellow with lots of very small clear "windows"._ S. californica _are brown, purple, or orange-ish. The easiest way to see the wings is to wait for the mantid to die of old age and then check em out. It is a bit more dificult when they are alive. I wrap my left hand around the mantid so that she can not move and her abdomen is exposed. I then carefully lift the fore wing about 1/2 inch with a pair of tweezers. If you have_ S.limbata_, that lemon-yellow will be VERY obvious even without lifting the fore wing more then 1/2 inch.

Each species should produce some what distinctive ooths. But I have only seen _S. limbata _ooths and not _S. californica_. So I can not be certain I could ID them based on ooths alone.


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## yeatzee (Oct 16, 2008)

Sweetness well they are all limbata! Well i've seen em drop from the top of their cages a couple times and Im pretty sure they had yellow wings


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## cloud jaguar (Oct 16, 2008)

Well all of our 3 are S. Limbatas too! With those cool lemon and clear wings. One is 3" and 2 are 2" so apparently, these may have a tendency to differ majorly in size as shown too by Yeatzee's pics of his mantids. We found 2 more this season (1 died and 1 released) that were all S. Limbatas too! I guess we will have to look elsewhere for the elusive Californica, lol. Thanks Hypoponera.

Yeatzee, you mentioned the large one had spots on wings - this may be Mediterannean Mantis. I read on p. 28 of "Praying Mantids - Keeping Aliens" about Mediterranean Mantis - iris oratoria. Supposedly looks almost identical to Stagmomantis except that Mediterannean mantids have 5 spines on tibia instead of 4, in nymphs.

So I am guessing that the S. Californica is not in culture then?

~Arkanis


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## yeatzee (Oct 16, 2008)

I looked up picks of _iris oratoria_ and its wings dont look the same from what I could see.......Hmm I'll try and get some picks of her wings ASAP

So I currently have almost 7 ooths and counting thanks to two males. I have pics of them from my sisters P&amp;S so i'll post em, I need to know wht species cause that would really really suck if all were infertile.

EDIT: Wait I couldn't find my own pics of the male, but i did find this (see attached pic). It looks relatively similiar to both my males, so wht species of stagmomantis is it?


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## Orin (Oct 16, 2008)

Once I was sent a tiny, tan, adult female mantis that was about 1.25". I could not figure out what it was for a week because I hadn't considered at that size it could be a European Mantis.


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## yeatzee (Oct 16, 2008)

Wht species is the male attached on the first page?


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## Hypoponera (Oct 16, 2008)

Well, this will be much harder for you to check! There is only one way to tell the males apart. Male _S. californica_ have 4 dark brown bands/stripes on the upper surface of the first four abdominal segments. You will need to lift both the fore and hind wings MORE then 1/2 inch this time. _S. limbata _males do not have the 4 brown stripes.

I do not know if anyone has _S. californica _in stock at this time. I have 2 males, but my female died shortly after mating and never laid an ooth for me. But they all came out of my back yard. So I will try again next year.

My _S. limbata _females are doing much better. They are laying! They also came from the back yard.


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## cloud jaguar (Oct 16, 2008)

I found a pic of the inner wings of S. Californica versus S. Limbata at http://tolweb.org/tree/phylogeny.html Look under "mantidae images" and it is on page 1 of 2. Wow, the Californica definitely have different looking wings from the Limbata - in the pics you can see the multi-hued wings and abdominal bands tthat Hypoponera discussed.


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## yeatzee (Oct 16, 2008)

Yea they are def. limbata. As for my male I only got to see for a brief second and the whole upper half of his abdomen was yellow. Thats all i could make out


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## yen_saw (Oct 19, 2008)

The same observation was noticed as well from the wild collected _Stagmomantis carolina_ here. While most of my captive bred species attain the same size as adult, the wild caught adult can vary greatly in size due to the amount of food intake. Obviously the larger one has been well fed compared to the underfed one. I might have seen it some where about how mantis could skip a molt and reach adult sooner in adverse condition which make them appear smaller.


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## Rick (Oct 21, 2008)

These two were from the same ooth and kept under the same conditions:


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## MantidLord (Oct 21, 2008)

yen_saw said:


> The same observation was noticed as well from the wild collected _Stagmomantis carolina_ here. While most of my captive bred species attain the same size as adult, the wild caught adult can vary greatly in size due to the amount of food intake. Obviously the larger one has been well fed compared to the underfed one. I might have seen it some where about how mantis could skip a molt and reach adult sooner in adverse condition which make them appear smaller.


Yeah, I read about that too, some mantids will reach adult hood at say L6 or L7 as opposed to L8 or L9. They appear much smaller than the "normal" grown mantids. So how do the inner wings of a carolina look opposed to a limbata/californica?


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## MantidLord (Oct 21, 2008)

Rick said:


> These two were from the same ooth and kept under the same conditions:


Sorry to double post, but I had the same slow development too with I. oratoria. A nymph seemed to stop growing for about two weeks, while its sibling continued to molt. By the time the "slacker" reached adult hood, the other mantid was all ready dead. They were kept in the same conditions with about the same amount of food. I wander what causes that?


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## Hypoponera (Oct 21, 2008)

Don't know the cause. But both my TX and AZ unicorns have the same issue. I have 3 nymps still at sub-sub adult stage while several adult females have died of old age. Mine were all kept communally so conditions and food supplies were identical. Maybe it is a way of the species prolonging the availability of mates? Or possibly a way of overcoming a food supply issue that may occur randomly in the wild?


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## rayg (Oct 21, 2008)

> [These two were from the same ooth and kept under the same conditions:/quote]
> 
> Are those _Hierodula membranacea_? I'm seeing the exact same thing happening with some from the same ooth. A friend has one that has only molted once in two months while all the rest have molted four times.


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## MantidLord (Oct 21, 2008)

Hypoponera said:


> Don't know the cause. But both my TX and AZ unicorns have the same issue. I have 3 nymps still at sub-sub adult stage while several adult females have died of old age. Mine were all kept communally so conditions and food supplies were identical. Maybe it is a way of the species prolonging the availability of mates? Or possibly a way of overcoming a food supply issue that may occur randomly in the wild?


I guess, but I wonder what makes them unable to molt? I mean it's not like the nymphs stopped eating, so wouldn't they be forced to molt anyway as a result of the expanding exoskeleton?


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## Hypoponera (Oct 21, 2008)

Could be a beharioural response. Could be a genetic "switch" that alters metabolic rate due to some environmental input. Many possibilities but no firm answer!


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## Kruszakus (Oct 21, 2008)

One molt less? It can happen from time to time...


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## MantidLord (Oct 21, 2008)

Hypoponera said:


> Could be a beharioural response. Could be a genetic "switch" that alters metabolic rate due to some environmental input. Many possibilities but no firm answer!


But if the mantids are in the same environment, how would that alter one mantis but not the other?


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## Hypoponera (Oct 21, 2008)

Actually, my unicorn nymphs are 2 molts behind. The last adult molted over a month ago. The first ones to molt to adult have already died of old age.

Like I said MantidLord, I have ideas regarding possibilities. But I have nothing solid otherwise. I am open to suggestions though.


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## MantidLord (Oct 22, 2008)

I see. I do know that a nymph that I gave to a friend in Northern California virtually stopped growing. Only molting once to L3 in a month. It died for some unknown reason. I figured that it was the sudden change in humity, seeing that it was born here in Nevada. I can understand why that one stopped growing, but I can't understand individuals in the same environment.

Well, what do I know, hopefully someone has some input. Until then, I guess it back to stuffing the slackers and cooking them.  And hoping that you get a breeding pair that matures at the same time &lt;_&lt;


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## Rick (Oct 22, 2008)

Kruszakus said:


> One molt less? It can happen from time to time...


If you're talking about the pic I posted it was more than one molt.


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## Kruszakus (Oct 22, 2008)

Rick said:


> If you're talking about the pic I posted it was more than one molt.


Nope - I did not mean that. Sometimes there can be one molt less or one molt more with mantids - but I do not think this happened here, probably the result of something else.


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## yeatzee (Oct 22, 2008)

Ha, alright I guess this thread now has 2 topics  

So as for my topic I originally started, Im abit confused. I know all my females are S. Limbata but what were my males. I have 5 ooth's right now and Im gonna be really pissed off if they're all infertile lol. All my males have since died, but I do remember all had the top half of their abdomen a yellow color. What does a male S. carolina/californica look like Compared to a S. Limbata male??

What are the chances that atleast 1 is fertile?


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## MantidLord (Oct 22, 2008)

yeatzee said:


> Ha, alright I guess this thread now has 2 topics  So as for my topic I originally started, Im abit confused. I know all my females are S. Limbata but what were my males. I have 5 ooth's right now and Im gonna be really pissed off if they're all infertile lol. All my males have since died, but I do remember all had the top half of their abdomen a yellow color. What does a male S. carolina/californica look like Compared to a S. Limbata male??
> 
> What are the chances that atleast 1 is fertile?


Sorry for getting off topic. I can't help you with ID of the males. (never had this species) but I would reckon that if they had the same color wings as the female, then they would be the same species.


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## yeatzee (Oct 23, 2008)

Well If thats the case then, all I can do is hope lol. I never saw their wings clearly because obviously when they fly its just a blur.


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## Hypoponera (Oct 23, 2008)

Well, now that they are dead, can you check the color of the top of the abdomenal segments closest to the thorax? If those four segments have 1 brown/black band each, then you have _S. californica_. If the segments are lacking the bands and appear to be the same color as the rest of the abdomenal segments, then you have _S. limbata_. Those bands are VERY easy to see!


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## yeatzee (Oct 23, 2008)

Now if only u told me this earlier...ha.

Well I let them go as they were getting ready to die, though I did get to look at a dead one I mated one of my females with a while ago and I dont remember any bands.....fingers crossed though


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## MantidLord (Oct 23, 2008)

yeatzee said:


> Now if only u told me this earlier...ha.Well I let them go as they were getting ready to die, though I did get to look at a dead one I mated one of my females with a while ago and I dont remember any bands.....fingers crossed though


Unfortunately it's just a waiting game I suppose. Wait for the ooths to hatch, if they do, then the females and males were the same species. If they don't, they could have been different species, or the female could have not produced fertile ooths, or the ooth could have dried up. I guess even if the ooth doesn't hatch, we won't know for sure. But if it does (which I hope it does) hatch, then you mated a pair. Good luck. Don't give up yet.


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## yeatzee (Oct 23, 2008)

Whats the rule of thumb for how long before I coclude infertile?


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## MantidLord (Oct 23, 2008)

Well, considering where you live, I'd say wait until the end of June next year. Usually, they hatch in May-June. I'd wait until a couple of weeks into July before tossing them. You might want to go and look for some more though. I waited a lengthy period like this last year, hoping my ooths would hatch only to find them infertile. Luckily I was able to find hatching ooths and catch nymphs outside to start my own "colony". Now I successfuly bred them. Good luck once again.

P.S. Before you lose patience and destroy them, their is a method of cutting the ooth open and seeing if it is fertile. You would lose a couple of eggs of course. I recommend searching for this method (I remember seeing a thread about it a while ago). I wouldn't do it of course until after "hatching time".


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## Hypoponera (Oct 23, 2008)

If you have _S. limbata_, then the ooth should hatch in ROUGHLY(!!) 8 weeks if kept at 80-85F. If you keep them cooler, then it will take longer. A bit more heat might speed them up but also increases the risk of drying out. I suggest waiting no less then 12 weeks just in case.

I have not worked enough with _S. californica _to be very specific, but would expect about the same time period.


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## yeatzee (Oct 23, 2008)

Alright cool, thanks.

And today I looked for some wild ooths and found exactly the last thing I wanted to find.......Another adult female. Ugh So many of em and yet no ooths or males.....and yesterday it was 95F + and it was around 93 today so the weather is still great for finding more males.


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## Hypoponera (Oct 24, 2008)

Do you have a black light? That would help draw in the males. If you don't have one, you can pick up just the bulb at places that sell "odd" stuff, like Spencers or party supply stores. Just replace the bulb of your porch light with the black light bulb. If possible, hang a white sheet on the wall behind the light.


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## yeatzee (Nov 1, 2008)

ugh man I really hope they are fertile because holy ###### ive got over 10 ooths!


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## MantidLord (Nov 1, 2008)

yeatzee said:


> ugh man I really hope they are fertile because holy ###### ive got over 10 ooths!


Wait, did you mate any of them? If so I would guess at that at least half will be fertile.


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## yeatzee (Nov 1, 2008)

All of them have been mated by an unknown species of stagmomantis......why do they all have to look the same lol


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## Hypoponera (Nov 3, 2008)

I hope you are ready! An average sized S. limbata ooth will produce about 50 nymphs. Times ten ooths would be about 500 nymphs. Loads of hungrey mouths to feed! You might want to incubate a couple of the older ooths while keeping the others at room temp. If the older ooths hatch, then give away the others before you get swamped!!


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## yeatzee (Nov 3, 2008)

Yea that is what I was thinking of doing, basically just putting a couple outside and keeping acouple in my ready containers.....but that is if these dang ooths are fertile &lt;_&lt; 

and if all works out I've already told my neighbors with their gradens and such I would give some to them......


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