# Spider Venom Reaction on Mantis?



## CoolMantid (Feb 6, 2012)

Hey all,

Slight problem. Iv'e been low on moths for my L7 Creo so I decided to feed a common house spider to her.

Here is a nice picture of one







Well any ways, She caught it but they both started wrestling. (Even rolling around) Then the spider's fang stuck out and he lunged into her raptorial legs.

She let go of it and has now been cleaning her arms non stop and her raptorial legs have been vibrating. I think the spider bit into her arm. Is she dying? Will she die? Have any of you noticed this before?

Please she will be my mating female

Thanks


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## CoolMantid (Feb 6, 2012)

Sorry the picture is actually a wolf spider. But still very similar


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## Precarious (Feb 6, 2012)

Never feed them spiders. No reason to unless you enjoy risking your pet's life. With any poisonous insect there is the chance of a bite and death. Just not a very smart move.

Sounds like she's been bitten for sure. My mantids react the same way when bit by a cricket. Only time will tell if the poison will do its work.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 6, 2012)

Also she is keeping her raptorial arms shut and they keep vibrating!

I think the venom is rushing through her body


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## CoolMantid (Feb 6, 2012)

I will keep you updated if she passes.


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## agent A (Feb 6, 2012)

How long ago was the bite? The venom is meant to kill within minutes, I'd say if in half an hour she's fine, u r in the clear

My creos eat spiders all the time


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## CoolMantid (Feb 6, 2012)

More than 10 mintues ago. She might just be scarred by the attack

I left her on a piece of bamboo so she is hanging upside down


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## agent A (Feb 6, 2012)

Mine hold the fangs to avoid being bit


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## CoolMantid (Feb 6, 2012)

Ya the spider was wrestling with her so I think she just wanted to eat it


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## Mr.Mantid (Feb 6, 2012)

Unless the spider is really small compared to the mantis i do not use them as food.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 6, 2012)

it actually was. But still it was really aggresive


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## Precarious (Feb 6, 2012)

This is why I stopped feeding my dog rattlesnakes. :mellow: 

He seems to be doing better on these fat-tailed scorpions, though.

Oh, wait... He's dead.


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## meaganelise9 (Feb 6, 2012)

lol ooh..

Yeah, I have only ever attempted spiders twice. The first time, it got eaten butt-first without a problem. The second one ran and hid and then built a web, so that's no good either. No one was hurt, but that was the end of spiders at my place. Not worth the risk. Hope your mantis is ok.. I guess we'll see.


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## Bryce08 (Feb 6, 2012)

Precarious said:


> This is why I stopped feeding my dog rattlesnakes. :mellow:
> 
> He seems to be doing better on these fat-tailed scorpions, though.
> 
> Oh, wait... He's dead.


 :blush:


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## Krissim Klaw (Feb 6, 2012)

Precarious said:


> This is why I stopped feeding my dog rattlesnakes. :mellow:
> 
> He seems to be doing better on these fat-tailed scorpions, though.
> 
> Oh, wait... He's dead.


A dog trying to eat a live rattlesnake/scorpion is not on the same level as a mantis tackling a spider. I know there are several users on this board who regularly feed bees, wasps, and spiders along with other wild caught prey items. Mantises are designed to be able to handle themselves and take on these sort of prey items. Are their risks, yes, there is a risk anytime you feed a feeder that can bite. Just like there is a risk keeping mantises in communal set ups or letting them practice such dangerous things as procreating.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 6, 2012)

Yes mantis can handle the poison inside their stomach. But if poison gets into their blood stream its dead. If A mantis gets stuck in a spiders web the spider will bite it and kill it. So basically soem venom has got into his blood stream.

I think she is fine except her arms got tangled and now she wont open them. So I dont think she will be able to eat.


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## Precarious (Feb 6, 2012)

Krissim Klaw said:


> A dog trying to eat a live rattlesnake/scorpion is not on the same level as a mantis tackling a spider. I know there are several users on this board who regularly feed bees, wasps, and spiders along with other wild caught prey items. Mantises are designed to be able to handle themselves and take on these sort of prey items. Are their risks, yes, there is a risk anytime you feed a feeder that can bite. Just like there is a risk keeping mantises in communal set ups or letting them practice such dangerous things as procreating.


So the rattlesnakes were a bad idea? :huh: I figured he might choke on dry dog food so it was worth the risk.

Of course I'm being sarcastic. I'm just pointing out that it's not worth the risking poisoning your pet. Mantids that specialize in flying prey are designed to handle wasps and bees. I am not aware of any mantid designed to battle spiders. When one predator battles another there is always more risk. Factor in poison and it just seems silly to even consider it.

I hope his mantis recovers. Let this be a lesson to everybody. The only real reason to feed your mantis a spider is because you get off on the danger. No one is that desperate for feeders. If you are I'll send you $1 to buy 10 crickets.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 6, 2012)

I use to feed my Chinese spiders.

She loved them!

But Creos are flower mantids (They preffer moths,bees etc)

I learned my lesson. I will keep you guys updated


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## Precarious (Feb 6, 2012)

I sure hope she recovers. I'm sorry it happened.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 6, 2012)

Ya thanks. If she goes I can only blame my self.

As of right know she doesnt look good. I think... no I hope... the posion will pass through by the morning and she will be herself again. Thanks for all these tips. Let you know in the morning


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## Precarious (Feb 7, 2012)

Hertarem45 said:


> Ya thanks. If she goes I can only blame my self.
> 
> As of right know she doesnt look good. I think... no I hope... the posion will pass through by the morning and she will be herself again. Thanks for all these tips. Let you know in the morning


That sux. I guess it depends what type of toxin is in the poison. I had a Ghost that drank off a plant that must have had insecticide on it and went into a coma for 2 days, but he fully recovered. Hopefully your girl is better in the morning. Give her some water to help flush it through her system.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

Will do


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## Mvalenz (Feb 7, 2012)

I hope she is doing better in the morning. I caught a spider in my house the other day to feed my mantis. Something told me not to so I let it go instead. Glad I did now.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

Well, she is still alive

But... she cant open her raptorial arms.

I have a feeling like I should put her down but dont want to.

Any tips?

I could hand feed her until she molts and see how she is then?


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## Precarious (Feb 7, 2012)

Give it more time. Hasn't even been 24 hours. Like I said, my Ghosts too 2 days to recover. As long as she's not suffering just keep feeding and watering and see what happens. It could be the toxins were the kind that destroy tissue rather than paralyze. In that case she may never regain use of her claws.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

I will try hand feeding her, Aslo her legs arent working to well. She keeps falling

For breeding purposes, do you think she will be able to lay. Even with this problem?


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## Precarious (Feb 7, 2012)

You've got to give it time and see how it plays out. I never had this happen so I don't know. Give her a chance to heal.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

ok thanks!


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## Krissim Klaw (Feb 7, 2012)

Precarious said:


> So the rattlesnakes were a bad idea? :huh: I figured he might choke on dry dog food so it was worth the risk.
> 
> Of course I'm being sarcastic. I'm just pointing out that it's not worth the risking poisoning your pet. Mantids that specialize in flying prey are designed to handle wasps and bees. I am not aware of any mantid designed to battle spiders. When one predator battles another there is always more risk. Factor in poison and it just seems silly to even consider it.
> 
> I hope his mantis recovers. Let this be a lesson to everybody. The only real reason to feed your mantis a spider is because you get off on the danger. No one is that desperate for feeders. If you are I'll send you $1 to buy 10 crickets.


Yes i figured you were being sarcastic but I was not a fan of the tone since to be it sounded like kicking someone when they are already down. The dog food comment is ironic since go to any dog forum and a number of people would want to burn you at the stake for feeding something as subpar as kibble. ^.~ The fact these are flower mantises however doesn't change my feelings about them still being plenty able bodied to handle spiders. Ambush spiders would frequent the same areas looking for those same flying insects. Spiders are indeed predators, but then again so can crickets easily fall in tha category too. I sometimes wonder if people realize just how much mandible power crickets have. Nothing like feeling and hearing the sound of a cricket biting on a metal tong to realize just what they can do. Mantises however are well equipped to handle them along with the other biting, stinging, pissed off prey items they snag.

I am in agreement though, I don't like to feed spiders just like you will probably never see me with a communal set up and then there is the fact I rarely ever risking breeding. I am cleary one of the types on the board to get way too attached to my babies.

@ Hetarem- I hope she pulls through. Sounds like it is way to early in my opinion to call it quits on her. I would give her a couple of days at the very least before making the decision.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Yes i figured you were being sarcastic but I was not a fan of the tone since to be it sounded like kicking someone when they are already down. The dog food comment is ironic since go to any dog forum and a number of people would want to burn you at the stake for feeding something as subpar as kibble. ^.~
> 
> The fact these are flower mantises however doesn't change my feelings about them still being plenty able bodied to handle spiders. Ambush spiders would frequent the same areas looking for those same flying insects. Spiders are indeed predators, but then again so can crickets easily fall in tha category too. I sometimes wonder if people realize just how much mandible power crickets have. Nothing like feeling and hearing the sound of a cricket biting on a metal tong to realize just what they can do. Mantises however are well equipped to handle them along with the other biting, stinging, pissed off prey items they snag.
> 
> ...


I am... for sure gonna give her more time. until she molts to adult


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## Precarious (Feb 7, 2012)

Krissim Klaw said:


> Yes i figured you were being sarcastic but I was not a fan of the tone since to be it sounded like kicking someone when they are already down. The dog food comment is ironic since go to any dog forum and a number of people would want to burn you at the stake for feeding something as subpar as kibble. ^.~
> 
> The fact these are flower mantises however doesn't change my feelings about them still being plenty able bodied to handle spiders. Ambush spiders would frequent the same areas looking for those same flying insects. Spiders are indeed predators, but then again so can crickets easily fall in tha category too. I sometimes wonder if people realize just how much mandible power crickets have. Nothing like feeling and hearing the sound of a cricket biting on a metal tong to realize just what they can do. Mantises however are well equipped to handle them along with the other biting, stinging, pissed off prey items they snag.


My black humor is not for everyone. And to be clear, I don't own a dog. At least not since those fat-tails killed him. But seriously, it seemed no one was pointing out that using spiders as feeders is not a good idea. I wanted to show what a silly idea is was by comparing with a more common pet and other poisonous animals.

Sure, in the right situation a mantis may take an _unsuspecting_ spider in the wild. That's a far cry from throwing a POed spider into close quarters with a mantis. That's equivalent to a gladiatorial arena and a fight to the death. Ask any hunter if they would rather be locked in a room with a gun and a moose or stalk it in the woods.

So the point is:

Spiders are dangerous and not good food for your mantids.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

Ok I solved this problem I think

So she cant open her raptorial arms so I tried hand feeding her and she refused it. SO I put on a heat mat and right next to my violin cage so she is at a constant 85 degrees. She should molt to adult in about 2 weeks. I think it should solve the problem.

I will continue trying to hand feed her

Precarious- Do you think this will work?


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

After she molts she might be able to open them again


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## lunarstorm (Feb 7, 2012)

I think it's very promising that she's still around and it sounds like you're doing the right things. Keep her warm and hydrated and be patient, healing takes time.


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## Precarious (Feb 7, 2012)

Don't force food on her. Let her just rest and drink for a few days. Now is not a good time to change her environmental conditions too much. Keep things the same and leave her be. If her legs aren't working properly she may not be able to molt so don't rush it. Also, many times if injured they will take up to twice as long beofre they're ready to molt. Give her some love and hope for the best.


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## Mantiskid (Feb 7, 2012)

Precarious said:


> Never feed them spiders. No reason to unless you enjoy risking your pet's life. With any poisonous insect there is the chance of a bite and death. Just not a very smart move.
> 
> Sounds like she's been bitten for sure. My mantids react the same way when bit by a cricket. Only time will tell if the poison will do its work.


Wait...Crickets don't have poison!


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

She was always at 78-80 degrees. But i moved her to 85 just incase.

Her legs are very weak. I found her hanging upside downs. So she can still hang.

She tried at attack a houselfy but fell in the process. So I removed all food.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

Mantiskid said:


> Wait...Crickets don't have poison!


Cricket bite can be bad though


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## Precarious (Feb 7, 2012)

Mantiskid said:


> Wait...Crickets don't have poison!


I just meant they keep cleaning the limb that was damaged.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

Like when they taste meat they keep eating even if it is their arm


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## agent A (Feb 7, 2012)

Is the immobility just in her forelegs or has it affected other legs now?


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

She can not open her raptorial legs

But her other legs are very weak


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## agent A (Feb 7, 2012)

Sounds bad  

Let's hope she's ok

Try offering extra grippy surfaces maybe help keep her stay mobile


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

She is still hanging from a stick


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## sinensispsyched (Feb 7, 2012)

If she's moving, wouldn't that just circulate the venom?


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

It might. I dunno for sure. She hasnt moved in a while


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## agent A (Feb 7, 2012)

i figured she could prevent paralysis by moving about (which is what we tried to tell my grandma when she was alive because she had back problems and was in pain but my mom, being a nurse, kept saying "if u dont keep exercising you will eventually lose your mobility")

lets hope she isnt bad

i dont know if the spider injected a lethal dose or if its a tiny dose


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## frogparty (Feb 7, 2012)

Mobility loss from envenomation is nowhere near the same as mobility loss from arthritis.

Remember mantis don't even have blood or a true circulatory system. They have hemolymph that flows throughout the body. Whatever venom is in has worked its way completely through the animals system long ago, and whatever internal liquification damage has occurred is currently being repaired internally as well as the mantis can manage. Movement in this case would likely be detrimental to internal healing


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## agent A (Feb 7, 2012)

oh, ok

glad u cleared that up


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## CoolMantid (Feb 7, 2012)

She has been crawling around. So I hope it helps


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## CoolMantid (Feb 8, 2012)

Sigh... I came in to check on her and she had only 3 legs? Those legs were twisted and she was just dying. Only her antennae were moving. I put her down. i really couldnt look at her like that. Well this is my second Creo. I called her "Camo Jr." she will be missed. I think I did the right thing.


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## Precarious (Feb 8, 2012)

I'm really sorry to hear that. SUX


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## Mvalenz (Feb 8, 2012)

Sorry to hear that.


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## agent A (Feb 8, 2012)

Poor creo


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## CoolMantid (Feb 8, 2012)

Yep. I came in and saw a leg lying on the floor and I thouht she molted but then I saw the rest of her legs where tangled up in a giant mess.


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## dlemmings (Feb 8, 2012)

Bummer...sorry to hear


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## sinensispsyched (Feb 8, 2012)

I am real sorry for your loss. Sometimes Nature is great, and sometimes it stinks. Sorry to hear you got the stinky side. However, he/she probably had tons of great moments.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 8, 2012)

Yell yah. When I caught her a moth she would chase it all around the cage. That was always fun


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## mykey14 (Feb 8, 2012)

That sucks...

Its hard getting over deaths.

Darn house spiders.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 8, 2012)

Ya. I saw another one today in my room.

I killed it so my babies would be safe.


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## frogparty (Feb 8, 2012)

Did you bother trying to identif this spider? Would t you feel pretty silly if you've been throwing recluses or hobo spiders into your mantis vivs?


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## CoolMantid (Feb 8, 2012)

No it is called the Common Brown House Spider i see em everywhere. Reculses have a violin type mark on their abdomen.

Plus I dont think Recluses live in this area?


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## agent A (Feb 8, 2012)

House spiders r fast and ghost like

Their body shape is different

U showed a pic of a wolf spider


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## CoolMantid (Feb 8, 2012)

Ya. I said that right underneath.THey both have a strip down their back


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## agent A (Feb 8, 2012)

But a house spider has thinner legs and it's abdomen is huge in proportion to the rest of the body

At least the ones here r like that


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## CoolMantid (Feb 8, 2012)

I think they might be different in every state.

But I always see American Funnel Webs outside


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## agent A (Feb 8, 2012)

Me too

That's kinda wat the pic u showed me looks like


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## CoolMantid (Feb 8, 2012)

Yep.


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## angelofdeathzz (Feb 8, 2012)

What a sad story this turned out to be, sorry Bud. Just for the record no centipedes either :no:


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## CoolMantid (Feb 8, 2012)

Ya. Of course


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## Krissim Klaw (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm so sorry the little un didn't pull through. =(


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## CoolMantid (Feb 9, 2012)

Ya. Well i got my new mantids today so I am happy!


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## patrickfraser (Feb 10, 2012)

Got any more spiders??? :devil:


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## Ruaumoko (Feb 11, 2012)

patrickfraser said:


> Got any more spiders??? :devil:


lmao

I have two adult female Dessicata's. The one I feed spiders to on a regular basis but not the other. The reasoning behind it is that the first female was fed smaller spiders from a Nymph and she learnt how to handle them correctly, the other female hasnt had any so I dont feed her them.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 11, 2012)

My Chinese loved em daddy long legs. Never had an issue


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## sinensispsyched (Feb 11, 2012)

My chinese HATED daddy long legs, since the legs always irked him. However, he did love crane flies.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 11, 2012)

My Chinese prefered daddy longlegs over crickets. He loved hunting them


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