# Cruelty to animals! Report this video...



## Precarious (Aug 23, 2011)

Please got to YouTube and flag this video. Contact YouTube and let them know how you feel about videos of kids killing mantids for fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShjPgNqTE7Yhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShjPgNqTE7Y


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## guapoalto049 (Aug 23, 2011)

ehhhhhhh these are the kids who I'd beat up in school


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 23, 2011)

Thanks for the heads up, Precarious. I reported it for cruelty, but didn't post because the little .... (fill in your own word so that I don't get a warning point!) seems to get off on being insulted. Looking at him, I would guess that he has a cluster of psych problems (but no, that is no excuse). I saw that he had two arms bands on his right wrist. Perhaps he is an escapee from an adolescent psych unit. Perhaps they'll come after him. Perhaps he'll put up a struggle. Well, we can dream, can't we?

I do strongly suggest that members turn it off after the first few seconds. It doesn't get any more edifying as it progresses.


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## mantidsaresweet (Aug 23, 2011)

This makes me sick and I can hardly even watch it!


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## Precarious (Aug 23, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> Thanks for the heads up, Precarious. I reported it for cruelty, but didn't post because the little .... (fill in your own word so that I don't get a warning point!) seems to get off on being insulted. Looking at him, I would guess that he has a cluster of psych problems (but no, that is no excuse). I saw that he had two arms bands on his right wrist. Perhaps he is an escapee from an adolescent psych unit. Perhaps they'll come after him. Perhaps he'll put up a struggle. Well, we can dream, can't we?
> 
> I do strongly suggest that members turn it off after the first few seconds. It doesn't get any more edifying as it progresses.


Absolutely agree. They love that people are disgusted by their cruelty. I didn't comment either. What's the point? Just flag and contact YouTube.

To be completely honest I watched very little of the video, but I saw more than enough to make me angry and disappointed in these poor, devolved examples of humanity.


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## Mr.Mantid (Aug 23, 2011)

Good lord he sounds like Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz from Phineas and Firb.


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## ImTheBugFreak (Aug 24, 2011)

Where is this kids parents! I wish I knew where this kid lived!


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## lancaster1313 (Aug 24, 2011)

:angry:


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## Malti (Aug 24, 2011)

flagged...and my temper took over and I posted :angry:


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## Malti (Aug 24, 2011)

Johnny, moderate your post...no naughty words on here, although we feel you bro


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## ismart (Aug 24, 2011)

Poor adult female _Stagmomantis limbata_  Wow! Those guys are tards! :angry:


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## Peter Clausen (Aug 24, 2011)

Damage control. Will review topic later. Set Johnny's post to invisible.


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## xxdreamchas3r913 (Aug 24, 2011)

dang sorry about that Peter i guess i lost it there....should have reflected a bit more on my words before i said it...not trying to justify my crude use of language but i was really just disgusted out of my mind that people like that actually exist. i take back the terrible things i said they were over the top but i will not take back my opinion of them. if by any chance i came across someone doing anything remotely as cruel as that i cannot truthfully tell you that i will just continue on my way or ask how their day was.


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## GreenOasis (Aug 24, 2011)

Bio51Hazard said:


> Where is this kids parents! I wish I knew where this kid lived!


His parents won't care. Remember, they RAISED him to be this kind of cruel person! A kid wouldn't just naturally be drawn to killing critters...I don't THINK. :blink: 

Now to play the "devil's advocate" for a moment...how many of us have uploaded pics or videos of headless males mounting females? Or headless males/cagemates wandering around in their enclosures. As creepy as we find it, we must also find it fascinating/amusing on some level to want to share that with others, or watch it ourselves.

Now, how many of us have "stomped" a mismolt, rather than try to handfeed...or rather than freeze them relatively painlessly? How many of us have fed a mantis to another animal (frog, tarantula, chameleon, etc)?

"Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone."

While I definitely do NOT agree with this type of casual abuse to an animal...I think it rather hypocritical of us to be just as vulgar &amp; cruel to this misguided (and quite possibly mental) kid. Besides, as mentioned, the kid seems to "get off" on it.

That being said, I hope he meets the same fate as that mantis a thousand times in the underworld.  (Yes, I flagged it...but honestly, YouTube is probably not going to do a darn thing about it!)


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 24, 2011)

GreenOasis said:


> His parents won't care. Remember, they RAISED him to be this kind of cruel person! A kid wouldn't just naturally be drawn to killing critters...I don't THINK. :blink:
> 
> Now to play the "devil's advocate" for a moment...how many of us have uploaded pics or videos of headless males mounting females? Or headless males/cagemates wandering around in their enclosures. As creepy as we find it, we must also find it fascinating/amusing on some level to want to share that with others, or watch it ourselves.
> 
> ...


Lots of interesting points, here, Carey. I agree that parents can teach cruelty by their own words and example. Sometimes, perhaps often, though, the bad behavior is a result of neglect. I knew a 7 year old in SF whose GM and mother both told me how he loved insects. Nobody observed him, though. He was tirelessly catching insects so that he could toss them into spiders' webs to enjoy them being eaten (we wouldn't enjoy something like that, would we?), and that was the extent of his interest. It was I, not mom or GM who found him two blocks away from the house where he wouldn't be seen, merrily burning ants with a magnifying glass (it was my magnifier, too, darn it!). He knew it was wrong, so I made a deal with him, either I could tell his mom, ("No! Don't do that!") or teach him what he was doing. I held the focused light beam on his arm until he jumped. I don't think that he did that again, at least i never caught him, and I kept my magnifier locked up! I suspect that casual cruelty is a common human trait, think of slavery, think of soldiers in battle, think of schoolyard bullies, and kids need to be taught that it is wrong.

I too have seriously wondered about folks whose major interest in mantids is their killing and eating ability. i have no doubt that when a mantis eats a reptile or a fish, it is not being "cruel" to the victim, but I wonder about folks who focus exclusively on that part of their mantids' marvelous and varied behavior.

I have mentioned before that I had the run of a pet store in Chicago where a couple of times a week, customers would buy a goldfish and wait until after closing time when the water in the piranha tank was heated and they got to see their goldfish torn apart by the hungry predators I never watched the slaughter, but I did watch the spectators, and to quote the late, great Phil Ochs, "saliva was running from their smiles". Two sessions of that was enough for me. One new member here once stated that he had been raising a Chinese mantis for the sole purpose (Honest! He said that!) of warching it eat a pinky. Fortunately, Rick squished him before he could share the gruesome details. And BTW, have you noticed how many mantiseers also keep reptiles, instead of, say, bunny rabbits? I wonder what that is all about?!

I never hand feed crippled mantids.If they have a trait that gives them an increased tendency to mismolt, say, then we are artificially preserving that trait in the progeny. Someone mentioned that lines of long domesticated angelfish have lost the ability to care for their young. Forty years ago, part of the fun of raising this cichlid was watching the parents catching up their fry and spitting them into an area of safety. Now, though, many breeders raise the young without their parents, and many fish that would have died out in nature, spawn parents that lack the ability. I also think that a crippled mantis is not enjoying a very high "quality of life". I believe in euthanasia for humans, too!

So, brick or freezer? The brick method has a large "urghh" factor for some of us, and I would suggest that anyone who is squeamish shouldn't do it, but it is quicker than freezing, where the mantis dies relatively slowly, in the dark, abandoned by his/her sibs and owner! I guess that it depends on your point of view! I suspect that the freezer method is often used for the comfort of the owner than for the mantis "out of sight, out of mind".

Thank you for a thought provoking post! I hope that it produces a lot of discussion, and that that cretinous youth did some good, however inadvertently.


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## Precarious (Aug 24, 2011)

GreenOasis said:


> "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone."


Maybe it's just me but I see a tremendous difference between documenting what occurs as part of a natural process outside of our control (such as a female partially eating her mate) and documenting your friend torturing and murdering a defenseless animal. I think it's pretty insulting to even draw any comparison between the two.

We've all got some level of morbid curiosity and I'd like to learn everything I can about my pets. Since there is no undoing what has been done by an over-eager female why not learn what we can from an unfortunate incident?

I can say from personal experience that putting one of my pets down is an emotionally traumatic experience. I've fed more than my share of crippled mantids hoping they would recover after their next molt. I've got to say it has never ended well. Whatever method is used to put them down is not pleasant, but better that than see them suffer as they starve to death.

I think you've taken the cruel, indefensible acts committed in this video and twisted them into a means of trying to make everyone here feel guilty about some unfortunate necessities that come along with keeping mantids, and I think that's a bunch of [email protected]!


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## MantidLord (Aug 24, 2011)

Precarious said:


> Maybe it's just me but I see a tremendous difference between documenting what occurs as part of a natural process outside of our control (such as a female partially eating her mate) and documenting your friend torturing and murdering a defenseless animal. I think it's pretty insulting to even draw any comparison between the two.
> 
> We've all got some level of morbid curiosity and I'd like to learn everything I can about my pets. Since there is no undoing what has been done by an over-eager female why not learn what we can from an unfortunate incident?
> 
> ...


^This I agree completely. Unfortunately I've met kids who threatened to kill mantids just to spite me. Of course I would tell them that they're aiding the cockroach population. But the point is, there are some ignorant, misguided, and demented individuals out there. Unfortunately, this is a prime example (albeit low level example) of how crazy people can be. Phil I'm surprised you didn't hold a candle for the Great Mantis Goddess (BBHN) for the poor mantis to rest in peace and to maybe spite those two.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 25, 2011)

Ah Mantidlord. Mantids rest in peace, whether we light a candle or not, and they don't have souls, any more than we do.Since they have no voices, they don't really miss not being able to "spend eternity singing around the throne". It made absolutely no difference to the Great Mantis Goddess (BbHN) or the mantis itself whether it was destroyed by a bird, a flood or a human boy.

I mentioned the anger that the video had caused me and many members, and she suggested that it would be more productive if we expressed our anger about the children being shot, burned and crushed tight now in Tripolii.. She wondered why humans are so enraged about the things that we cannot change and so indifferent to the things we can. I changed the subject.


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## Peter Clausen (Aug 25, 2011)

He said most things better than we can think or feel them (I think)...

Henry David Thoreau says:

_Moreover, when at the pond, I wished sometimes to add fish to my fare for variety. I have actually fished from the same kind of necessity that the first fishers did. Whatever humanity I might conjure up against it was all factitious, and concerned my philosophy more than my feelings. I speak of fishing only now, for I had long felt differently about fowling, and sold my gun before I went to the woods. Not that I am less humane than others, but I did not perceive that my feelings were much affected. I did not pity the fishes nor the worms. This was habit. As for fowling, during the last years that I carried a gun my excuse was that I was studying ornithology, and sought only new or rare birds. But I confess that I am now inclined to think that there is a finer way of studying ornithology than this. It requires so much closer attention to the habits of the birds, that, if for that reason only, I have been willing to omit the gun. Yet notwithstanding the objection on the score of humanity, I am compelled to doubt if equally valuable sports are ever substituted for these; and when some of my friends have asked me anxiously about their boys, whether they should let them hunt, I have answered, yes, -- remembering that it was one of the best parts of my education, -- make them hunters, though sportsmen only at first, if possible, mighty hunters at last, so that they shall not find game large enough for them in this or any vegetable wilderness, -- hunters as well as fishers of men._

_..._

_There is a period in the history of the individual, as of the race, when the hunters are the "best men," -- as the Algonquins called them. We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun; he is no more humane, while his education has been sadly neglected. This was my answer with respect to those youths who were bent on this pursuit, trusting that they would soon outgrow it. No humane being, past the thoughtless age of boyhood, will wantonly murder any creature which holds its life by the same tenure that he does._


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## MantidLord (Aug 25, 2011)

Phil...I actually agree with that post.


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## GreenOasis (Aug 25, 2011)

Precarious, no! You totally mistook what I said. :no: 

My intent was in no way meant to make anyone here feel guilty. I, myself, fed three dying mantids to my bullfrog last night. (To me, this seems a more efficient, and more "natural" use of them than just chucking them in the freezer or trash.)

My post WAS meant to be thought-provoking and meant to make us see things from others' point of view. Just as the Biblical quote, "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone," was meant by Jesus to be thought-provoking to those in the blood-thirsty mob. (Again, not comparing myself to Jesus in any way!)

This falls in the "shades of grey" area of pet-keeping. One person's economical use of their collection is another person's horror story.

Yes, I do agree that filming &amp; sharing that sort of brutality does leave one to wonder if those kids need psychological help, but...today, that is how kids "socialize", boast, brag, etc. Not unlike the old "Saturday night cruising" of our day. (And since kids can't bully each other in school anymore, they have to get out those raging hormones SOMEHOW.) It IS definitely wrong, though, (I in no way condone the action) and someone should step in and help those poor kids realize that. Unfortunately, posting comments on YouTube just gives them the kind of attention that they are seeking (from their parents), so it really does no good. I reported it, but didn't bother with a comment.

I do think that their problem is a lack of their parents being involved enough to teach them right from wrong. Such is the way of our "dual-income household" society nowadays.  

Phil, I totally get you there (how odd)...remember the old glatiatorial games? (No, I don't mean from first-hand experience!)  People LOVED that...and it was way more barbaric &amp; cruel. Slavery, torture...you got it all there. Maybe you are correct about it being our natural tendency...I don't know...but I certainly hope not. I like to live under the false pretense that we are more "civilized" than that now.

And by the way, Phil...were you a proponent of the Eugenics Project, by any chance? Not helping the crippled!?  Gosh, even *I* do that! I have had one or two that recovered after a subsequent molt. One Chinese female lived a good, long life after recovering from a bad L5 molt. And I also have an H. patellifera girl who nearly died in an over-heated shipping box, who, after a lot of nursing for a few days, made a full recovery &amp; even went on to breed! (She did lose both "tarsus" on her raptors, so she has to get around on her claws, lost most of her antennae &amp; has singed wings, but she eats &amp; acts perfectly fine now.)

I do, however, put down the failing ones right away now, rather than trying to see if they will "snap out of it." I know when a battle is lost.

I myself, am certainly not without sin. In fact, I probably sin quite a bit more than even I realize.


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## GreenOasis (Aug 25, 2011)

MantidLord said:


> ^This I agree completely. Unfortunately I've met kids who threatened to kill mantids just to spite me. Of course I would tell them that they're aiding the cockroach population. But the point is, there are some ignorant, misguided, and demented individuals out there. Unfortunately, this is a prime example (albeit low level example) of how crazy people can be. Phil I'm surprised you didn't hold a candle for the Great Mantis Goddess (BBHN) for the poor mantis to rest in peace and to maybe spite those two.


One of my daughter's former "friends" got off on telling me that he killed snakes, for fun. Just random messages that he'd killed a snake &amp; how he did it...because he knew it hacked me off. Then, when I no longer responded about what I would do to him if I caught him doing such a thing, he started sending pictures of what he'd brutally done to them. Snakes with no heads, snakes that had been stomped into mush.

At first, I was enraged...I told him in no uncertain terms that he was no longer welcome at my house. Then, I got to thinking...about how this boy's parents were nowhere to be found, his grandparents, elderly &amp; incapable of keeping up with him, basically let him run amuck...and I did feel a little twinge of pity for the kid that the only way he learned to get attention was by doing hateful things, and that he sought attention so much that he would aggravate ME, a person he barely knows, to get it!

I still don't let him over to my house, however, and my daughter has (thankfully!) finally taken my advice to get rid of him as a friend (he is irreparably damaged, in my opinion and even she now agrees "he's a psychopath!"), but I did make sure to have my older son pummel him at least once, on behalf of all the snakes he's killed and for my irritation with him (because I couldn't slap him myself.)

Kids like that crave and NEED discipline, but the more of a handful they become, the more we want to sweep them under the rug, out of our site, until they're too old for us to make any difference in their life (like those boys with the mantis), and there's nothing good left in them. Good thing there's the military, or they'd never be able to hold down a decent job. :blink:


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## GreenOasis (Aug 25, 2011)

Disclaimer: When I say "pummeled"...I mean he gave him a quick jab in the chest, under supervision...he did NOT beat the kid senseless...although, that might've done wonders too!

My older son is far more gentle that *I* would've been.


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## Precarious (Aug 25, 2011)

GreenOasis said:


> Precarious, no! You totally mistook what I said. :no:


You know me - Mr. Sensitive. I often take 'devil's advocate'-type statements as passive aggressive attacks.

I too have taken to feeding my hopeless cases to other pets as it seems the most natural and productive solution. I still hate doing it. Still makes me feel I've failed one of my pets.


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## psyconiko (Aug 25, 2011)

Dont have much to say...It depresses me.Killing and torturing animals is a common pattern to sociopath and serial killers(before they decide to go to the next stage).When he would have done the same to his neighbours dog,friends,little sister,or girlfriend people would say:"Of course I know he was deranged,dont you remember this video"?

I did kill ants on purpose when I was younger.I even roll dirtworms around firecrackers before lighting them.But I knew I was doing something wrong and always felt bad after this kind of experiments.

Lets hope this kid is just young and stupid,never to late to realize that most animals are better alive than dead!


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 25, 2011)

"And by the way, Phil...were you a proponent of the Eugenics Project, by any chance?"

@ Carey.

No, Carey, the eugenics movement and the American legislation in California and Florida were dead and being carefull buried from the social consciousness well before i came to the U.S. Curiously, the Nazi eugenics legislation of 1933 is still taught in American schools without reference, I believe, to the fact that it was modelled on Californian legislation.

So to be sure that I understand you, are you suggesting that because I do not nurse crippled mantids, i advocate the sterilization and segregation of of the "mentally feeble" who largely comprise blacks and the rural poor of the United States? No, I don't, and to save further questions along this line, I do not advocate selling humans, killing them in a freezer or feeding them to reptiles.

it may be, Carey, that you intended this as a joke, like your reference to Frey;s "evil ways". Not everyone, however, shares your sophisticated sense of humor, and you might save your self a few explanations and retractions by a little judicious self monitoring.  

Edit: P.S. you were right, our tags have not had it taken down yet. If you find this repulsive folks and haven't tagged it yet, your help is needed!


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## Precarious (Aug 25, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> "And by the way, Phil...were you a proponent of the Eugenics Project, by any chance?"
> 
> @ Carey.
> 
> No, Carey, the eugenics movement and the American legislation in California and Florida were dead and being carefull buried from the social consciousness well before i came to the U.S. Curiously, the Nazi eugenics legislation of 1933 is still taught in American schools without reference, I believe, to the fact that it was modelled on Californian legislation.


A great (though dry) documentary on the rise of the various faces of eugenics in the early part of the last century...

*Homo Sapiens 1900*

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7559596148288756138


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## Idolofreak (Aug 25, 2011)

Frikkin' sickening that that little  even THOUGHT of doing that. Emoticons will help me:

:blink:  :angry: :2guns: :gun_bandana: :tank: 

BTW did anyone even MAKE it to the part where he RIPPED HER HEAD OFF(Or knocked it off, but either way it's totally wrong.), and then DUNKED HER IN A POND???


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## Idolofreak (Aug 25, 2011)

ismart said:


> Poor adult female _Stagmomantis limbata_  Wow! Those guys are tards! :angry:


You know it! :angry:


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## angelofdeathzz (Aug 25, 2011)

Precarious said:


> Maybe it's just me but I see a tremendous difference between documenting what occurs as part of a natural process outside of our control (such as a female partially eating her mate) and documenting your friend torturing and murdering a defenseless animal. I think it's pretty insulting to even draw any comparison between the two.
> 
> We've all got some level of morbid curiosity and I'd like to learn everything I can about my pets. Since there is no undoing what has been done by an over-eager female why not learn what we can from an unfortunate incident?
> 
> ...


My friend I would not change one thing you said! +1 x 10, I feel exactly the same word for word...

But now on to serious business, I have the punk azz brat chained in my basement, so what to do with him? What say you...


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 25, 2011)

No. I gave Carey the benefit of the doubt about knowing the meaning of the Eugenics Movement and I see no reason not to give her the same benefit for knowing the meaning of "devil's advocate". When the arguments are being made for an individual's sanctification, the church appoints a devil's advocate or_ Promotor Fidei _

to advance the case against that individual's being beatified.He may be personally convinced of the candidate's sanctity and is arguing pro forma for the sake of a balanced discussion. Certainly it is not his role or intent to mock or revile the proponents' values or personal integrity. I understand that many companies do this at the management level, today, so give the poor woman a break. Why are we just dismissing her argument out of hand without debating it?

@Precarious: You are a scholar and a gentleman. I watched that disturbing movie that I had never heard of before through and even freeze framed bits to laboriously tackle the German text (forget the Russian!). Unfortunately, though, it did not support my assertion that the n movement was important in the US because it was prepared by Swedish, Russian and German sources, with an American voice over, and was not concerned with the issue in the U.S. except peripherally.

And now I'm off to visit my friend Angel and check out his basement. I have a 2x4 here, somewhere.....


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## Precarious (Aug 25, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> @Precarious: You are a scholar and a gentleman. I watched that disturbing movie that I had never heard of before through and even freeze framed bits to laboriously tackle the German text (forget the Russian!). Unfortunately, though, it did not support my assertion that the n movement was important in the US because it was prepared by Swedish, Russian and German sources, with an American voice over, and was not concerned with the issue in the U.S. except peripherally.


Yeah, it went very light on the American eugenics movement, which was one of the most advanced. That was disappointing, but it was very interesting to see the difference between the ideals at the core of the Russian and German concepts (intelligence vs the Greek ideal form).

I'll bet you'd enjoy this movie as well...

*The Soviet Story* (2008)

Here's an amazing clip. The montage of Nazi and Socialist posters at the end is very interesting indeed...

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a full version with English subtitles available online but if it interests you PM me.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 25, 2011)

Precarious said:


> Yeah, it went very light on the American eugenics movement, which was one of the most advanced. That was disappointing, but it was very interesting to see the difference between the ideals at the core of the Russian and German concepts (intelligence vs the Greek ideal form).
> 
> I'll bet you'd enjoy this movie as well...
> 
> ...


Ah yes, the famous/notorious Soviet Story, claimed by one favorable reviewer to be "propaganda, but good propaganda". {c.f. "propaganda"]. I really must buy the DVD But to cite George Bernard Shaw the Irish playwright as a credible voice of socialism is rather like citing American poet Ezra Pound as an authority on fascism. Some of us, including one intelligent and politically savvy mantiseer on this forum, would take exception to the characterization of Karl Marx as a proponent of genocide on the basis of the opinion of literary critic, . His famous use of the word "Völkerabfälle" to denote what he considered were "left behind' behind or "useless rubbish" countries is, I find, no more condescending than our use of the term " third world" with its tacit assumption that we, of course, are the "first world" or the popular American phrase "poor white trash" phrase with its tacit assumption that such folks are distinct from "regular" poor trash, which is, of course, black. Nor do i find, without approving of it, his dismissal of such countries any more hostile than what I read of American attitudes toward Islamic countries every day. But of course, Germany and Russia ware political, if not ideological allies until Barbarossa.

I'm not sure what you mean by an "English translation" of Shaw's speech, which was, of course, made in English -- I suspect that I misunderstand you -- but there is a transcript of this speech, in the Listener, the publication of the BBC, Feb 7th 1934. It is archived,

And this really is fun. Please let me know if you think that we are getting slightly off topic!


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## Precarious (Aug 26, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> ...to cite George Bernard Shaw the Irish playwright as a credible voice of socialism is rather like citing American poet Ezra Pound as an authority on fascism.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by an "English translation" of Shaw's speech, which was, of course, made in English -- I suspect that I misunderstand you -- but there is a transcript of this speech, in the Listener, the publication of the BBC, Feb 7th 1934. It is archived,
> 
> And this really is fun. Please let me know if you think that we are getting slightly off topic!


Shaw wasn't cited as anything other than being a member of the Left and in alignment with the idea of eugenics based on class. The point of the clips inclusion was to support the claim that the Left were very much in support of the eugenic ideas popular in Russia and Nazi Germany even if they did not support their political beliefs. Shaw was a Socialist and belonged to the Fabian Society, but maybe that means something different to me than it does to you. :blink: 

I meant a full version on the film with subtitles since some portions are interviews with German- and Russian-speakers.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 26, 2011)

Precarious said:


> Shaw wasn't cited as anything other than being a member of the Left and in alignment with the idea of eugenics based on class. The point of the clips inclusion was to support the claim that the Left were very much in support of the eugenic ideas popular in Russia and Nazi Germany even if they did not support their political beliefs. Shaw was a Socialist and belonged to the Fabian Society, but maybe that means something different to me than it does to you. :blink:
> 
> I meant a full version on the film with subtitles since some portions are interviews with German- and Russian-speakers.


No, no, we agree! The Fabian Society, then in its infancy, was and still is the intellectual basis (a "think tank" now, I believe) of the socialist party. Although not nearly as well known over here, Beatrice and Sidney Webb, put the same case, with less fanfare but in much more bigoted and racial terms. No, my point, ineptly expressed, perhaps, is that to say that poor old Bernard was used in the movie because he is well known in the States, though I doubt if many could summarize his play, "Man and Superman" which encapsulated his views and was a big success in England, fails, almost certainly with intent to deceive, to point out that he was voicing a popular view in the England of the pre WWII era and not a peculiarly socialistic view.. It is well known that the Mental Deficiency Act of 1913 provided for the incarceration but not the compulsory sterilization of the "feeble minded", to use the terminology of the bill, but it was introduced by a Liberal government and among its strongest proponents were (by then) Tory Winston Churchill, an open advocate of sterilization and the Archbishops of Canterbury and York, the leaders of the Church of England. So to say that the socialists were in favor of eugenics is as true and false as to say that they were in favor (including a vehement Shaw!) of WWII. They were, and so was everyone else.

But now, all that is past and no one can be involuntarily sterilized in the U.S. And if you believe that, do I have a beautiful bridge for you! Here's a quiz mantiseers, are there any conditions in the U.S. where a "developmentally delayed' person can be sterilized against their will? Please give your state when you answer.


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## GreenOasis (Aug 26, 2011)

PhilinYuma said:


> No. I gave Carey the benefit of the doubt about knowing the meaning of the Eugenics Movement and I see no reason not to give her the same benefit for knowing the meaning of "devil's advocate". When the arguments are being made for an individual's sanctification, the church appoints a devil's advocate or_ Promotor Fidei _
> 
> to advance the case against that individual's being beatified.He may be personally convinced of the candidate's sanctity and is arguing pro forma for the sake of a balanced discussion. Certainly it is not his role or intent to mock or revile the proponents' values or personal integrity. I understand that many companies do this at the management level, today, so give the poor woman a break. Why are we just dismissing her argument out of hand without debating it?
> 
> ...


"Devil's Advocate" here used by me as an American idiom, meaning "to say what I feel the opposing side is thinking/feeling on a particular subject." I apologize if you feel my interpretation was incorrect.

I do know well what the American Eugenics Movement was and have studied the topic, although, perhaps not as thoroughly as you have. When did you arrive in America, Phil? The Eugenics Movement sterilizations were most popular between 1907-1963. However, sterilizations were routinely carried out even later than that...mostly on the mentally-challenged. I seem to remember a made-for-TV movie back when I was young about a young woman with mild Down Syndrome who had been sterilized under this act/law/policy in...the late 60's?...who sued and won against those who authorized the sterilization. If anyone can remember the name of that movie, I'd greatly appreciate it, as I'd really love to see it again! I do know that it was our American Eugenics Movement that prompted the Nazi Party of Germany to enact their own Eugenics campaign...and did you know, our Eugenics campaign didn't become "unfashionable" until it gained favor with a certain syphilitic German dictator who took it to the next level? Our Planned Parenthood of America was started by one of the BIGGEST proponents of Eugenics in America.

My "jab" was meant for amusement, Phil...I apologize if you took it for anything but that. Though, I would appreciate if you would stop alluding to my unintelligence, as I really don't think you know me well enough to infer that. :mellow: 

Back to the issue at hand...I DID watch the kids' torture video all the way through, and I do believe that the child doing the torturing has by and far "gone 'round the bend", mentally speaking, and probably has fun shoving firecrackers into toads' mouths and such, too. However, the other boy, the one taking the video, may be one of those who does these silly things as a kid (or follows the "crowd"), but doesn't end up a serial killer...just a "punk" who needs to grow up perhaps, judging by his comment responses. If you watch it all the way, through, you'll hear the boy behind the camera saying things like "Can PETA come after us for this?" "Seriously, can we get arrested?" So, obviously, he shows some concern over what is being done, but...being trained by the public school system from day one to want to "fit in", he says nothing to the other boy...who would probably only call him names if he DID try to stick up for "the bug". There is yet hope there....who knows, maybe the boy will have enough guilt over the incident to want to catch &amp; keep one for a pet someday, and, after witnessing the "miracle of birth" (ooth production), he will begin a new generation of mantid-lovers. Stranger things have happened.

As for the kid doing the torturing..."He had YELLOW EYES. I kid you not, YELLOW EYES!" Anyone...anyone??? :huh: Scott Farkus? A Christmas Story? Too early in the year for that, I suppose. The boy behind the camera is just his "toadie".


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 26, 2011)

I came to the USA, care, in 1961, and though, so far as I know,both illegal and legal sterilization of the developmentally delayed and the poor, "welfare mothers' was being practiced legally, and in the latter case illegally, in the States, these acts were not part of an organized eugenics movement. In Chicago, it was commonly believed, and from my own professional experience, highly likely, that doctors at Cook County Hospital and elsewhere, were routinely doing "OTTLs" (on the operating table after another procedure, tubal ligation) to multiparous women on welfare who had a caesarean.

In Illinois, at least when I was practicing, following a psychiatric examination of the child, a parent could give consent for the child, almost always a female, to have an irreversible TL. Tjhe issue in such cases is not eugenics but convenience and financial economy.The developmentally disabled cannot give legal consent for treatment, and the legal guardian can give consent for a DD woman to be placed on a course of DepoProvera until menopause, though in Illinois, at least residents of long care DD facilities cannot be prevented from having consensual sexual intercourse, whether fertile or not. I never saw, however, a male patient with vasectomy or orchiectomy scars.

I have never given your level of intelligence any consideration, Carey. I would expect that it is within normal range.


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## PhilinYuma (Aug 26, 2011)

I came to the USA in 1961, and though, so far as I know, both illegal and legal sterilization of the developmentally delayed and the poor, "welfare mothers", was being practiced legally, and in the latter case illegally, in the States, these acts were not part of an organized eugenics movement. In Chicago, it was commonly believed, and from my own professional experience, highly likely, that doctors at Cook County Hospital and elsewhere, were routinely doing "OTTLs" (tubal ligation while the patient is still on the operating table after another procedure, ) to multiparous women on welfare who had a caesarean.&lt;br&gt;In Illinois, at least when I was practicing, following a psychiatric examination of the child, a parent could give consent for the child, almost always a female, to have an irreversible TL. The issue in such cases is not eugenics but convenience and financial considerations.The developmentally disabled cannot give legal consent for treatment, and the legal guardian can give consent for a DD woman to be placed on a course of DepoProvera until menopause, In Illinois, at least, residents of long care DD facilities cannot be prevented from having consensual sexual intercourse, whether fertile or not. I never saw, a male patient with vasectomy or orchiectomy scars, though

I have never given your level of intelligence any consideration, Carey. If you feel that I am insulting you in this way, please let me know the exact situation, or perhaps, notify Peter.


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## Ricardo (Aug 31, 2011)

All you adults and oldies don't get it, I'm sorry to say.

You people think that we teenagers need to express ourselves and release our angry hormones.

We don't.

This video just displays two idiots. I've NEVER been in a situation where I wanted to kill something for pleasure because of my raging hormones. Teenagers aren't idiots. Like adults , there's assholes, and then there isn't.

GreenOasis, this being the teenagers first offense doesn't justify him in any way nor does it make him look any better.

Him being a teenager doesn't give him any free ticket either, since there are those of his age bracket ( like me ) who would never want to squeeze the head off of a praying mantis.

They're ###### who are barbaric and cruel, but this is NOT because they're teenagers and all teenagers are supposed to be like that. Like I said, we're like anyone else, a mix of assholes rational thinkers etc.

Teenagers don't kill things and then run off eagerly to tell their friends. This should not be tolerated or expected from anyone.


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## mykey14 (Aug 31, 2011)

I totally agree with you!


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## mykey14 (Aug 31, 2011)

mykey14 said:


> Pardon my French but THOSE MOTHER HUMPERS NEED TO HAVE THERE BOOTYS BEATEN!!!! I totally agree with you in every aspect, we must have this video banned and burned. IMMA GO FLAG THE VIDEO. um what's the name of the video?


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## massaman (Sep 11, 2011)

I must say that I was one of these so called 'idiots' when I was in my younger years and outgrew it as it is some random to some people and everyone does things they will have to answer for at some time on their lives whether its just for fun or out of ignorance!


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## ismart (Sep 12, 2011)

massaman said:


> I must say that I was one of these so called 'idiots' when I was in my younger years and outgrew it as it is some random to some people and everyone does things they will have to answer for at some time on their lives whether its just for fun or out of ignorance!


I do agree with you there. I myself have done some stupid things when i was younger, but there recent post of this video has only proved they are just as stupid then, as they are now. I would be so embarrassed to post such a video, knowing now it was wrong!  These guys are really just morons. :angry:


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## minard734 (Sep 12, 2011)

I myself would never kill a mantid with no point! I understand people killing them because it jumps on their head and they freak out. People don't like insects, so what do you expect? Ehhh... but this is different. These kids were obviously not afraid, as they were handling the mantid and torturing it. These insects are beneficial and unique... Also not nearly as common as roaches (Which I smash, when they get in the house). Where does one draw the line? I don't know, but I DO find this video STUPID. It was painful because I could have taken that mantid and gotten ooths from it. It was a waste of a valuable insect.


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## jrh3 (Sep 12, 2011)

Freaks :helpsmilie:


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## massaman (Sep 13, 2011)

http://works.bepress...=alan_garfield


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## CoolMantid (Sep 15, 2011)

I am going a tell a story........ I found a small teeny tiny baby spider and I planned on raising it and loving it but my seat partner saw it and said aww then squished it. I wanted to flip him into the next universe but then he started a chain were now when some one sees a bug they squish it for game and or abuses it by stabing its eyes with a baby pin. Four praying mantises died that way and one was injured ( It got flicked in the face who knows how many times). I blame my self for letting them do that when I went to the bathroom. I have saved a 20 caterpillars from a gory death. I already flaged that video before you showed it.... there are many other videos like that. I love your videos by the way, and is that the proper way of holding a mantis....... Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!


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## patrickfraser (Sep 16, 2011)

Gee. The idiots are idiots. I can't believe that this is going and going. These A-holes are the new mantid forum celebrity and have given countless new views to their nonsensical, inhumanly abuse. Even if it's only a bug, its still a life and that sort of abuse should be stomped. I wish I had a bigger shoe.


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## Termite48 (Sep 16, 2011)

I am a late comer to this post. I did not notice it before, or I would have entered my two bits into the replies. This matter of being able to post on a website such acts of cruelty is not to my liking. It is one thing to do such things in the privacy of ones living space, but to be able to cast it in the wind like seeds, is wanton insanity of a certain type. I am not a psychologist, nor am I even interested in such study for the most part, but regarding creatures that have little in the way of defense against such a beast as a human, I get angry. Guapoalto mentioned that this is the kind of boy he beat up on the playground and I must say, I too to that. There were few reasons to want to beat up a kid, but it was always about being cruel. Euthinasia no matter how it is performed is not cruelty. Viewing the acts of one mantis toward another in the interest of better understanding the awesome hobby that is ours is not akin to the cruelty that some of us just peeked at long enough to see where it was headed in this You tube vid. I do not know if on You tube there is a place for a negative comment, but I will make one if possible. This stuff should not be tolerated. Some wonder why our prisons are overcrowded.


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## Precarious (Sep 16, 2011)

Rich S said:


> I do not know if on You tube there is a place for a negative comment, but I will make one if possible.


Click on the video or the YouTube logo in the lower right to take you to its YouTube page and you can 'flag' the video for review. It's a way to report hateful, violent, or otherwise unacceptable material.


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## Termite48 (Sep 16, 2011)

Thanks Henry. I will put that on my list of things to do today or tonight.

Rich


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## sinensispsyched (Feb 16, 2012)

Kids in my class try to PO me by saying,"I'm gonna squish your mantises" and such simple yet agitative stuff. Everyone mocks me for my passion, as well as for how sincere I am for that passion. They don't live decent lives.

As for the video, I couldn't see it, but they're @$$#%&amp;*$!


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## patrickfraser (Feb 16, 2012)

Removed by user? :clap:


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## Precarious (Feb 16, 2012)

patrickfraser said:


> Removed by user? :clap:


Yay! Now we just need the user removed.


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## Bryce08 (Feb 16, 2012)

success....kinda.....1 down


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## CoolMantid (Feb 16, 2012)

But i have seen others...


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## gripen (Feb 16, 2012)

idiots will be idiots. its sad but oh well. beating the kid up as some have suggested would solve nothing.


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## angelofdeathzz (Feb 16, 2012)

gripen said:


> idiots will be idiots. its sad but oh well. beating the kid up as some have suggested would solve nothing.


Very wise and true Gripen! We should just grab him, toss him in the back of the van and flick him till his head comes off, well maybe not but it sounded kind of fun! :devil2:


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## CoolMantid (Feb 16, 2012)

angelofdeathzz said:


> Very wise and true Gripen! We should just grab him, toss him in the back of the van and flick him till his head comes off, well maybe not but it sounded kind of fun! :devil2:


i would flick his head SO hard


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## patrickfraser (Feb 16, 2012)

Kids' heads are too hard to flick off. You need to kick hard.


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## CoolMantid (Feb 17, 2012)

patrickfraser said:


> Kids' heads are too hard to flick off. You need to kick hard.


Any experience with kicking kid's heads?


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## sinensispsyched (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm a kid AND a soccer player!

It's all about which part of the foot you use, and which part of the head you strike. If you use your toes in the weak back part of the head, the head does a whiplash and falls off real easy! BTW, don't ask about my brother, or I'll kick off your head too!(jk)


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## brancsikia339 (Feb 17, 2012)

sinensispsyched said:


> Kids in my class try to PO me by saying,"I'm gonna squish your mantises" and such simple yet agitative stuff. Everyone mocks me for my passion, as well as for how sincere I am for that passion. They don't live decent lives.


That's what's happened to me in recent years. When I was in first grade, though, I brought in a big Tenodera female, and everyone loved her. Same in second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth. In fourth grade, we even had a voting poll to name my 4th generation female T. aridifolia. We named her Sally, and when she inevitably died, everyone was upset. But as of this year, when I brought in my favorite blue flash for an elective, people actually shoved her net cage out of my hand! Some people intentionally tried to flick her off the side of her cage! It upsets me that some people have to hate insects just to be happy. They were actually amuzed! :angry:


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## CoolMantid (Feb 17, 2012)

brancsikia339 said:


> That's what's happened to me in recent years. When I was in first grade, though, I brought in a big Tenodera female, and everyone loved her. Same in second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth. In fourth grade, we even had a voting poll to name my 4th generation female T. aridifolia. We named her Sally, and when she inevitably died, everyone was upset. But as of this year, when I brought in my favorite blue flash for an elective, people actually shoved her net cage out of my hand! Some people intentionally tried to flick her off the side of her cage! It upsets me that some people have to hate insects just to be happy. They were actually amuzed! :angry:


That is sad. i try to stay on the down low about my pets. I told my science teacher about them and she gave me extra credit for bringing one in. She says i am her star pupil


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## brancsikia339 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hertarem45 said:


> That is sad. i try to stay on the down low about my pets. I told my science teacher about them and she gave me extra credit for bringing one in. She says i am her star pupil


That's not saying everyone is like that. I have friends who love mantids, but honestly, no one in school respects my passion. This is probably the only place I can actually have a conversation about mantids without criticism besides home.


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## Precarious (Feb 17, 2012)

brancsikia339 said:


> ...But as of this year, when I brought in my favorite blue flash for an elective, people actually shoved her net cage out of my hand! Some people intentionally tried to flick her off the side of her cage! It upsets me that some people have to hate insects just to be happy. They were actually amuzed! :angry:


People who behave that way are invariably lacking empathy. They are cut off from the connection that exists between all forms of life, and this empowers their ego to seek expressions of superiority over any they judge as 'inferiors'. I feel sad for people like that. They have to look down on everything just to feel better about themselves. Where as, if we work on ourselves and feel good about who we are, it frees us to see all the beauty that exists outside ourselves without feeling threatened by it.

Don't think your dealings with their type will end after school. The world is filled with empty souls unable to love anything but what they are forced to respect for reasons of survival. Don't let that stop you from loving what you find beautiful, because your opinion is the only that really matters, so long as that opinion comes from a place of honesty.

I was the outcast in school too. The 'trench coat mafia' type, all in black. The punk rocker/artist. People thought I was a witch, a devil worshiper, and God knows what else. Where are those people now? I don't know and I don't care. Where am I now? Right where I want to be; in direct communion with nature and the connective force of consciousness existing within all living things.

So be who you are, be honest with yourself, and let the soulless live their empty lives.


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## patrickfraser (Feb 17, 2012)

AMEN! :clap:


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## sinensispsyched (Feb 19, 2012)

@brancsikia339 post#65-THANK YOU! That is exactly the same with me! These mantids are SO underestimated, everyone thinks of them as mosquitoes.

This year, I am debating whether to bring in a budwing or blue flash. I'll bring a boxing glove in cese someone is a jerk.


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## brancsikia339 (Feb 21, 2012)

sinensispsyched said:


> @brancsikia339 post#65-THANK YOU! That is exactly the same with me! These mantids are SO underestimated, everyone thinks of them as mosquitoes.
> 
> This year, I am debating whether to bring in a budwing or blue flash. I'll bring a boxing glove in cese someone is a jerk.


If I bring mine in, I seriously go under the radar to avoid someone bothering me or my mantids.


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## sinensispsyched (Feb 23, 2012)

Yeah, in terms of under the radar, I slipped up earlier this year. Oops!


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