# breeders responsibility



## massaman (Nov 4, 2010)

I always try to send heat packs when sending mantids or what not but is it not the breeders or the sellers responsibility to supply the heat packs and what not when they are selling a mantis or ooth most of the time rather then the one buying the ooths or mantis as some on here selling are requesting that if your going to buy something to send out a heat pack and it is just my observation that it should be the seller to supply that when shipping the ooth or mantis to a potential buyer!


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## PhilinYuma (Nov 4, 2010)

Some folks, like me, Paul, don't need heat packs, so if you request one because you are in a colder clime, a lot of sellers will ask you to pay for it because their margin of profit is pretty slender to begin with. So long as they let you know in advance, it is an ethical business practice.


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## ismart (Nov 4, 2010)

Paul, it really has all to do with the agreement you and a seller/buyer have come to. Expect nothing! It does not hurt to ask!


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## Krissim Klaw (Nov 4, 2010)

Personally I only buy from people that will guarantee my mantises will arrive alive and will reship more if they don't make it. Thus, its in the senders best interest to make sure they do what is necessary to get my mantises to me alive. I have no problem paying a bit more if a cold pack or heat pack is deemed needed, before they are willing to ship.


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## Precarious (Nov 4, 2010)

Let me clear this up for everyone...

This is my ad:

FOR SALE: Gambian Spotted-Eye Flower Mantis Nymphs!

Cute, spunky and the easiest species to keep!

Many L2 nymphs available...

$5 each or 6 for $25, 10 for $40. I always throw in an extra or two.   

Over night ($25?) or Priority ($5.50). 

I can only guarantee over night, but I'm not going to stiff you if something goes wrong with Priority.

Must add $1.50 for heat pack!

US only

I'm asking a mere $1.50 for inclusion of a heat pack. That's what I pay for them. That's all I charge. No idea what he's talking about with the buyer sending a heat pack.

The temp went down to 28 degrees here in PA the other night. We had frost in the morning. May be warm where you are, but mail does not teleport from point A to point B. So if you'd like to receive LIVE nymphs or ooths I would suggest a heat pack. I'm not into killing nymphs because a buyer is too cheap to pay $1.50. I'd rather keep them with me and alive.

If on the other hand you'd like an excuse to claim I sold you a dud ooth, request no heat pack and keep your fingers crossed.

The full story is I offered to sell Massman an ooth for $15 instead of nymphs if that's better for him. So he sends a check for $15 pretending he didn't know I would need money for shipping or heat pack and tries to get me to send it at my expense, which I would not. Then it turns into haggling over a $1.50 heat pack.

Honestly, I don't need the money that bad. I'm selling nymphs because people seem to like this species and I'd like to share them. I'm not looking to get rich and I'm not looking for a headache by selling to people with unrealistic expectations. Nor am I looking for an argument or bickering. If you are not willing to pay the expenses of shipping live insects in cold weather please do not respond to my ad.

That's the whole story. Because of all that I choose not to sell to Massman. Sorry. I have little tolerance for monkey business.


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## massaman (Nov 4, 2010)

look i did say i was going to send the rest of the money and what not and you chose not to let me do that to fix my mistake so before you jump to conclusions just listen for once i said i would pay the rest and your ad was for nymphs only and you made the offer to me for a ooth and i was going to pay but was my fault for and told my mom to write the check for 15 dollars instead of 20 so the fault was mine but i wanted to try to fix this problem and he would not let me make ammends and i was going to correct the error on my part and was not on purpose by any means so before you jump to conclusions just give me the benefit of the doubt and i will make things right but was not given the chance! (sigh)


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## ismart (Nov 4, 2010)

Ha! So this is the reason he posted this.


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## massaman (Nov 4, 2010)

yes this is the reason and i hope nobody will prevent me from buying anything from them over this because i love this hobby and this is the only forum and what not that i know of that offers this kind of insect and what not and now this is just causing me to be depressed again.I just wish I could fix every problem that is caused from me but i got my own problems to deal with first and i will let it go with this. If no one wants to deal with me again then i guess i have nothing more to say and i am sorry and am trying to do right but i just mess up and i want to keep going in this hobby. I am trying really hard to do things without messing up seriously and hope this will not stop people from selling to me! I am just only human and make mistakes and regret some of the things i have done and may seem like i am being a drama queen but I am not trying to do anything but fix whatever i have broken!


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## massaman (Nov 4, 2010)

I am being honest with the above posts and am going to leave it at that and hope people will trust me still!


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## Precarious (Nov 4, 2010)

massaman said:


> I was just going to send the rest of the money to prove that I am not dishonest but as I said I was not given that chance to make things right!


I gave you the chance and this was your reply:

ok give me your address again and will send the rest of the money but i will not use any heat packs if thats understandable and not ripping you off but i prefer not to use heat or cold packs as the weather is decent enough to ship without packs so just give me your address and how much more i owe and will work it out! Why do you need people to send the heat packs when its your responsibility to do that when shipping and not leave it on the buyer of!

Current temps in Michigan are in the 40s. That's your idea of "decent enough" weather to ship live insects?

I'm sorry, dude. You will find Gambians somewhere. Like I said Rebbecca bought 2 ooths. I'm sure she'll have some for sale. I will pass.

I hope you work out your personal troubles. I'm not trying to add to your frustration, but I'm not willing to add to my own either. I didn't say anything nasty in these comments. I only clarified the situation. What I stated here has nothing to do with any previous troubles you had with anyone else. This is just what happened between you and I, and you chose to make it public. That was your choice not mine.


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## ismart (Nov 4, 2010)

massaman said:


> I am being honest with the above posts and am going to leave it at that and hope people will trust me still!


The only issue i would have with all this, is the fact you just publicly made your transaction known to all, instead of PMing precarious. Maybe an understanding could have been made between you. I know if you purchased something from me, and started a post like this, i would be pretty pissed off! :angry:


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## Precarious (Nov 4, 2010)

ismart said:


> The only issue i would have with all this, is the fact you just publicly made your transaction known to all, instead of PMing precarious. Maybe an understanding could have been made between you. I know if you purchased something from me, and started a post like this, i would be pretty pissed off! :angry:


It's all good. I'm not even mad. But I have the right to choose not to engage this transaction, and that's what I choose.


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## massaman (Nov 4, 2010)

well i will not rush into things next time as things like this do happen if i am in a hurry to get things done and i guess this will be something to not repeat in the future!


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## Precarious (Nov 4, 2010)

massaman said:


> well i will not rush into things next time as things like this do happen if i am in a hurry to get things done and i guess this will be something to not repeat in the future!


That is exactly the right attitude to have.

Every experience is just a lesson.

We learn from it and move on.

More opportunities will present themselves in the future.


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## LauraMG (Nov 4, 2010)

There is only one occasion that I have had a heat/cold pack supplied without paying extra. The majority of the people will charge extra since it is money coming out of their pocket anyhow. Since that was the original argument, that's my response and opinion. I know I can't afford to pay for extra stuff like that myself.


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## hibiscusmile (Nov 5, 2010)

Personally for me, I include the heat pack when needed, If the person wants one otherwise, I suggest they purchase it. Usually with fruit flies and regular priority shipping in winter, it gets insulation and a heat pack, not with regular fly shipping though. And express gets both. But, each dealer is allowed to make their own rules, as is each company one would deal with on a day to day basis, each company does things their way and usually if you buy from them you have to play by their rules. Sometimes you can ask for certain things and they will work with you, but this is also their choice. Always best to ask. Hope you two work it out and sorry to hear this post had to happen. good luck!


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## GreenOasis (Nov 5, 2010)

Precarious said:


> I gave you the chance and this was your reply:
> 
> ok give me your address again and will send the rest of the money but i will not use any heat packs if thats understandable and not ripping you off but i prefer not to use heat or cold packs as the weather is decent enough to ship without packs so just give me your address and how much more i owe and will work it out! Why do you need people to send the heat packs when its your responsibility to do that when shipping and not leave it on the buyer of!
> 
> ...


Precarious: You shoulda' said "Fine, I will absorb the cost of the heat pack, but that means that shipping is now $6.50.  

massaman: I realize you are young, so, in time (&amp; with maturity, on your part), I'm sure all will be forgiven out here...just accept the lesson as given &amp; move on.

You have to look at shipping weather on BOTH ends for any live animal &amp; include heat or cold pack if EITHER end of the trip warrants it. You should also look into what species you're getting to determine what temps they can handle. Gambians are from Africa, and I would dare say, probably need a good deal of warmth or they will die. A good breeder/seller will advise you that you may need to have a heat/cold pack, but, it is ultimately up to you to take their advice. An excellent breeder/seller will refuse to ship if conditions aren't ideal.

I truly hope that you two works things out in an amicable fashion (sounds as if you are already on your way!)...life is too short to go around angry &amp; bearing grudges all the time!  

-Carey Kurtz-

Green Oasis Reptiles


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 5, 2010)

Couple quick notes from the Admin side:

Rick flagged this post 2 days ago. He and the other mods are wary of deleting anything without a (private) group discussion. We know that members do not like this once a discussion (appropriate or not) has commenced, but sometimes we delete threads for the good of all.

It appears that the parties involved have been able to publicly work out their differences and see each others' perspectives. This is good.

What isn't good is the position this puts us in as moderators to make the right decision about whether a post stays or not, and we find ourselves in this situation from time to time. From our perspective, the issues of concern in this thread were as follows:

1. Massaman makes the choice to publicly raise a fair question. His timing, however, was concerning because it was an "active" issue he was having with another member. One of Massaman's saving graces was that he did not specifically mention Precarious by name. It was initially anonymous.

2. Precarious then came in with his perspective on the issue, but went a step further in personalizing the situation. Personal references (bordering on the phrase "attacks") cause us, as moderators, concern.

While most people will side with Precarious on this issue (it is the industry standard in terms of what to expect in transactions) and his right to continue or cancel a sale based on differences, this entire issue would have been better left in the PM (private message) system.

All members are encouraged to use the Report Post feature if they feel they are being baited into a concerning discussion. It's wonderful that the issue was publicly resolved like it was, but it puts moderators in a position we don't like to be in and the issue obviously could have gone a completely different direction, putting the two parties into disciplinary jeopardy and potentially a few uninvolved members as well.


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## Precarious (Nov 5, 2010)

Never should have been made a public issue in my opinion. Edit or delete at your discretion.


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 5, 2010)

Teaching aid


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## Rick (Nov 6, 2010)

I ever flagged it Peter. Massaman himself reported it.


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## Peter Clausen (Nov 7, 2010)

Okay, I thought you sent it to the active reports section because you were the first to reply in that section.


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