# My new veiled chameleons



## patrickfraser

Here's a few pics of my new veiled chameleons I picked up at the Pomona reptile show on Sunday. They are adorable. I received a "basic" care sheet, but VERY basic. I still have to get everything needed in the way of supplies. I have only fed a few baby dubias, which went well. Anybody have a shopping checklist for a first time chameleon owner? Feeding supplies needed and best brands? I have no idea where to start, so I'm heading to the chameleon forum to sort out some basics.

I can't wait for them to get more colorful. I may have to find a more suitable mate, as this sexed pair were purchased from one vendor and are probably related.  Either way, I've always wanted one and now I have 2. I can't complain. I don't know which is which (M/F). Any guesses or "for sure's"? Maybe the smaller more patterned is male?  Also age? You can see the color change already with more pattern in the first photo and it fades in the latter photos.


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## angelofdeathzz

Awesome, I always wanted some myself, had a Iguana for 6+ years, from a baby(8 inches w/ tail) he maxed out at 6ft, the 1 out of 10 people he didn't like would get a nasty tail whip that could leave a mark along with a evil sounding hissing/growl noise.

How much were the pair if you don't mind me asking?


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## D.J.

Also they stress easy And they aren't friendly with a bite that can split your nail( I know from experience ) just avoide handling and they will do good. Also they love tomato horn worms from the pet store


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## D.J.

Use an open air cage!


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## patrickfraser

$70 ($35 ea.)+ $12 reptile show entrance +$10? for parking. I have seen them at a local pet store for $100 for one, so it was like 2 for 1. Just reading at the cham forum that this species is pretty aggressive and can be downright mean. I hope the babies keep there docility into adulthood with regular interaction from a young age. I got these, because they were the cheapest I could find and they were so cute. I just went saying I want a chameleon. I did no research beforehand. oops. Now I scurry.


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## patrickfraser

D.J. said:


> Also they stress easy And they aren't friendly with a bite that can split your nail( I know from experience ) just avoide handling and they will do good. Also they love tomato horn worms from the pet store


OH NO! I didn't want to hear that.


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## Termite48

Scott: I used to a have a pair and I remember that the males seem to show more of a Veil on their head at an earlier age. I remember the male being more aggressive and the more you handle it the less it will dislike it as in mantids. They love almost all the same things as do most reptiles that size. Meal worms now and later you can use Superworms (both of which you can culture from the ones you buy at Petco). They need UVB and they need some reptile vitamins like Reptivite. Steve Simms is the local expert, although he seems to be into Panthers more. You can find him on the Forum and he lives in Irvine.


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## agent A

They r adorable!!!


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## patrickfraser

I bought a UVB fluorescent and vitamins and calcium with D3 to dust the feeders today. I have silkworms growing now and will probably use them and dubias. It's a lot of fun to feed them GB and BB, but not much nutrition in those. I will handle them regularly for short periods and hopefully it will help with the aggression. They are so small and sweet. They love to hug up on my finger to get warm. Tooo cute.


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## agent A

Luna moths hug your finger too, but if u try and remove them they squirt lol

Keep us posted on the chameleons


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## patrickfraser

It's official! the smaller one IS the male. He has spurs. I heard the males are more colorful, but when I had them out tonight the female was the one with most colors and all patterned up. WOW! Maybe she liked my shirt or maybe she just wanted to go to bed. She was all over the place and was hard to get a good picture. She loks like she has question marks on her sides. Maybe I'll name her Riddler. :lol:


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## lancaster1313

She is adorable with the "?"!


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## D.J.

patrickfraser said:


> OH NO! I didn't want to hear that.


Just watch out and limit handling them and they should do fine and do you know their gender because males fight


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## patrickfraser

I heard more handling is better. There is a male and a female and I'm not keeping them together. I will handle them as I see fit and hopefully I'll grow on them, because I know I've already grown attached to them. I love to see them sleep. They look so peaceful with their nice pale green color and tails all coiled.


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## D.J.

patrickfraser said:


> I heard more handling is better. There is a male and a female and I'm not keeping them together. I will handle them as I see fit and hopefully I'll grow on them, because I know I've already grown attached to them. I love to see them sleep. They look so peaceful with their nice pale green color and tails all coiled.


Depends because to much handling is bad because they can stress out easily


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## patrickfraser

What does "stressing out" look like? I have no clue. They seem fine.


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## jcal

Males have a spur on the back heels. That's the easiest way to tell. They get mean quick. Keeping them together will also stress the out fast.

Stress usually results in darker colors.


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## angelofdeathzz

As with any animal/living thing I think it's how you handle them that matters, if you make them feel safe and they know you care things go more smoothly, a true animal lover will know there limits in a relatively short time and adjust as needed.


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## patrickfraser

I was putting the babies to bed tonight and when their lights went out, they just left their basking spots where they usually hang out and made a bee-line straight to the new umbrella plants I added recently. They knew it was bedtime. Also, the female turned a ghostly grey color which I had never seen her do. I will be getting surprises of different colors as they grow older and get their adult coloring. Little by little, kinda like a mantis molting, I guess I'll have to wait. I have no clue what colors to expect. But here's the spooky girl. Really cute picture, I think.


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## agent A

They r such cute little guys!!!


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## lunarstorm

I hope you keep updating this thread, I wanna hear what happens over time, see the colors, etc.!


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## patrickfraser

This is a picture of where they are living.


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## angelofdeathzz

You seem to be doing it right! Maybe a few more climbing sticks? But looks good.


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## patrickfraser

Yeah, it's a work in progress. I have added a few more sticks for climbing since the photo. They love the umbrella plants. I will be looking into more vine type plants. I have some wandering jew in my backyard and will get a cutting or two started. I am also thinking about passion flower, but they seem to want to "strangle" other plants. The pothos should start vining out and I will tie it around the inside of the cage with either twist ties or some jewelry wire. Just these couple of plants and regular showering of the chams has really upped the humidity in the room. They seem to be a good fit for the bug room.


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## Psychobunny

patrickfraser said:


> This is a picture of where they are living.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope this is screen and not glass!!
> 
> I owned these years ago and they are very prone to parasites. One of them had an infected eye and died.
> 
> The other one died after only a year.
> 
> No one knew anything about them back then, now we know you cant put them in glass terrariums, they need
> 
> a very large screened in encloser with plenty of room and ventilation.
> 
> I hate to be a wet blanket, but they are hard to keep alive and even harder to breed (if they live!!).
> 
> I made calls to every Zoo, Reptile farm and Herpitoligist I could find, and found out that most Zoo's do not keep
> 
> them because they seem to die for no reason. And they could never get them to breed even if they did live!!
> 
> That was a long time ago, and I am sure a lot more is known about them.
> 
> At that time, there was only one book published about them, and it was in German (I had to pay to get the book translated!!)
> 
> and I had to go to Cornell U library to even find the book!!!
> 
> I also had a pair of Jackson's. Both species stress very easy and do not like to be handled.
> 
> You can let them volunteer to climb on you, but do not grab them.
> 
> I would also put more large sticks in there for them to climb on.


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## patrickfraser

I can see where you're coming from. BUT...there is A LOT of information out there now and even a forum, which I joined. Don't worry, it's a 2x2x4 screen DIY cage and I have added more sticks. Most of the problems of yesteryear were probably due to the fact of wild caught specimens. People are now very successful with raising and breeding them. One lady on the forum just received a baby veiled from a couple of breeders that was a grandbaby of one of her chameleons that had passed away. Most that can be purchased today are captive bred and are less likely to have parasites. That's not to say that they aren't still susceptible, but with proper care and hygiene you lessen the risk. Check out the chameleon forums and see where the hobby is today. You might just want to get another one (or 2 :lol: ). There wasn't much info on raising and breeding mantids years ago, but look at what's going on here.


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## warpdrive

patrickfraser said:


> I can see where you're coming from. BUT...there is A LOT of information out there now and even a forum, which I joined. Don't worry, it's a 2x2x4 screen DIY cage and I have added more sticks. Most of the problems of yesteryear were probably due to the fact of wild caught specimens. People are now very successful with raising and breeding them. One lady on the forum just received a baby veiled from a couple of breeders that was a grandbaby of one of her chameleons that had passed away. Most that can be purchased today are captive bred and are less likely to have parasites. That's not to say that they aren't still susceptible, but with proper care and hygiene you lessen the risk. Check out the chameleon forums and see where the hobby is today. You might just want to get another one (or 2 :lol: ). There wasn't much info on raising and breeding mantids years ago, but look at what's going on here.


I was going to day the same thing.

In fact, most of the advice given is so out dated that It's silly.

In Europe, 90% of keepers use full or partial glass with out issue.

Regardless of what the people in Florida or southern California ( the vast majority of the cameleon forum users), glass is also used here in the northern states. In fact, many cameleons require it.

I personally still use screen cages, but i at least know how to mod them to help with humidity for my animals. Otherwise I would use glass.

You can look at some of my videos on YouTube for cage ideas under the name, micamica1217.

But please make sure that there are plenty of walking sticks and one that is close enough to help them bask under the main light.

Harry


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## warpdrive

Oh, and stick with pothos, ficus, and umbrella trees.

Veilds will eat plant leaves as they get bigger and some plants are poisonous. (Wondering Jew)

Harry


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## patrickfraser

I must be doing something right. My female went through a full body shed today. Last night there was a white spot and this morning she was cracking. I gave her a good spray down and left for work. When I came home there was a little pile of shed skin on the floor below where she basks. Looks like my first shed is a success and all other variables seem to be in check. The boy was just finishing a shed when I got them, so he should be coming up on a shed soon.


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## D.J.

my dads jaksons just had babys


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## patrickfraser

Congrats on the Jackson babies. How many babies did you get? Do you have homes for them all? I love the horns on them.


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## D.J.

Yup my home lol and 8 baby's


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## patrickfraser

Here's a couple photos of my female shedding. Taken with my phone, so please excuse the quality.











Here are also a couple of pics from tonight at bedtime. How come they are so darn cute when they sleep? :wub: 

Here's the male




...And here's the female. Can I get a consensus on adorable, or what? I had to take a couple.  











This ones my favorite.


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## lunarstorm

Nice shedding pics! I don't remember ever seeing a chameloen sheddding; I'm glad you shared 'em despite being from your phone.

And yeah, those sleeping pics will evoke many d'awww moments.


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## warpdrive

I love your pics. Keep posting photos.

They are cute little things as babies.

Harry


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## CoolMantid

to show this to my mom! She wil want an adorable chameleon now!!!


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## patrickfraser

I will keep this updated as a photo journal, of sorts. I am glad you like it. I can't wait for their colors to start coming in.


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## patrickfraser

I knew the male wouldn't be far behind. He's been kinda grumpy and I saw his skin wrinkling, so it was just a matter of time before he started. I came home to a disgruntled shedding chameleon. They just seem so down when shedding. But after seeing what happened after this shed, I can't wait for the next. Here's a some photos of his ordeal. I see spots!


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## lunarstorm

Very cool. Starting to tempt me to consider a chameleon at some point.


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## agent A

How big r the cuteys now???


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## patrickfraser

Still babies. I'll have to measure when I get home. It's hard to see the growth when you see them daily, but my friend Abby said they looked bigger. Maybe they are. I don't know. I'm going to get a gram scale to keep up on their weight gain or loss. It should all be gains for now. Sometimes you have to cut back on their intake if they are getting too large and also to reduce egg clutch size in females.


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## warpdrive

I would feed both every day as much as they want for now. in 3 months, start feeding the female every other day to prolong her from her first clutch (and lower the amount of eggs). if your room is already warm (72F-78F) then you can even not use a heat bulb for her to bask. or just use a 40w bulb at the most just to add a drop of extra heat to bask.

when the male is 1 years old then he too can be fed every other day.

of course this is just ultra basic advice and a scale is needed to watch for any jumps in waight gain with your female.

dusting can be diminished once both are a year old but when you just know that your female is gravid then start dusting every day or other day lightly.

above all keep reading and learning. they are wonderful and a blessing to be in your household.

Harry


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## Idolofreak

Dang the sleeping pics are freaking cute! :wub:


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## patrickfraser

The female shed again today. The male seems to be growing at a slower pace or maybe he is younger. I don't know, but he has been smaller from the beginning, so I guess it's "normal".

I like the shedding photos.


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## agent A

I thought reptiles grow slowly :huh:


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## patrickfraser

Not when they're babies.  I think the majority of growth is in the first year.


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## angelofdeathzz

Dude, they are nothing short of awesome! You seem to be doing well with them, I'm definitely taking notes.


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## patrickfraser

Thanks. Are you thinking about "going cham"? They are really cool and I have them eating out of my hand. Not at all aggressive or "stressy" as I had read veileds as being. They will run to the cage door when they see me coming with their feeder "dusting cup". When I say run, I mean RUN. These things can really book it if they want to. I'll have to try to get some tongue shooting pics or maybe a video.


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## itzjustjeff

Awesome setup! I've always wanted to get some chams but I just dont have the space for them at the moment. FYI OSH has a lifetime guarantee policy which states that if you purchase a plant from them and it dies (in the pot you purchased it from) they'll replace it for free with proof of receipt. You can try out different plants and see which you like most.


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## rs4guy

Females get egg-bound, so when the female becomes older, be sure to have some sand filled container at the bottom of your screened enclosure for her to dig in. Also, proper supplimentation of vitamins is key, as is a UVB setup, and a screened enclosure witha misting system. Veilds are awesome! Enjoy!


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## patrickfraser

I've got it covered. I just do hand misting about 4 times a day. A mister is on my "wish list", but I enjoy misting them. Egg bin will be added when the female's older. Supplements are straight-forward. Calcium w/o D3 (Mon-Sat) and every Sunday alternate Multi-vitamins one week and calcium w/D3 the next. I'm seriously thinking of chucking my supplements and going with the Repashy Calcium Plus (all in one at every feeding). Seems like a lot less work and I am reading nothing but good things about it.


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## rs4guy

Just make sure not to overdo with D3, I'd rather have the control with 2 calcium types.Chams are sensitive to too much D3..


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## warpdrive

rs4guy said:


> Just make sure not to overdo with D3, I'd rather have the control with 2 calcium types.Chams are sensitive to too much D3..


agreed. your veileds need the type of plain that was already laid out..."Supplements are straight-forward. Calcium w/o D3 (Mon-Sat) and every Sunday alternate Multi-vitamins one week and calcium w/D3 the next."

once both are adults, simple pain calcium will do once a week. vitamins and D3 can be done once a month.

your gutload for crickets and supers are far more important then dusting. if gutloaded properly with fresh greens and fruit you wont need the vitamins all that often. I keep Quads and they can't have any D3 or vitamin supliments. so gutloading is way too important.

that Repashy is not ment for chameleons and should NOT be used.

Harry


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## patrickfraser

hmmm. Why do a lot of people on the chameleon forum use it for chameleons? It just sounds like a simple dusting method. I have dubias that are fed fresh veg and fruit. For a treat, they get frosted shredded mini wheats. The sugar side is always the first to go. :lol: It's probably not the best, but they get a frozen chicken taquito every once in a while for a protein boost. They become hiding tubes for the babies when they eat all the chicken out and before the shell is consumed.


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## rs4guy

Im with Warp


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## patrickfraser

I'll keep up with what I've been doing thus far. It seems like it will last a while. :lol: I'll decide what I will do when it runs out. There will also be more information to weigh the pros and cons after it's been on the market a while and more people start using it.

Oh...and I'll add i came home to a freshly shed boy. They're growing fast. I have no idea what colors they are supposed to be. One thing with my boy is he is deformed. His casque (head crown) is bent at the top. I don't know if it will correct itself or not with maturity. It may keep growing more curved. That might be cute, but may cause problems if it becomes too curved. I still haven't picked proper names for them, but with the curved crown, I might name him Cupie. :lol: Maybe...maybe not.


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## patrickfraser

This is the curved casque. Coulkd it be troublesome?


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## CoolMantid

It might be because of low humidity


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## patrickfraser

Are you kidding me??? Didn't you see the water all over the plants??? :lol:


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## CoolMantid

i did. Thats why I was hezitating about posting that, also I a viewer cant tell if you just misted the plants or they are alwasy wet. Oh and by low humidity I mean 65% they like it in the 80% but make sure the cage is very well venitlated


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## patrickfraser

The room always has humidity of 45-55 and they get misted in their screen cage 3-4 times a day which bumps up the enclosure humidity higher . The plants are usually wet, as I will mist when the cage becomes dry. I don't allow sitting water, as it is a breeding ground for bacteria.


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## warpdrive

patrickfraser said:


> It's probably not the best, but they get a frozen chicken taquito every once in a while for a protein boost. They become hiding tubes for the babies when they eat all the chicken out and before the shell is consumed.


for reptiles like Chameleons, don't feed animal protiens like your chicken taquito to your roaches or crickets. chameleons are insectivores and the gutload for feeders should NOT contain things like DOG FOOD or other animal protiens. this can have an adverse effect on the health and well being of your chameleons.

just tell your roaches that they are vegan now and they'll get over it in less then a day. :clown: 

Harry


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## patrickfraser

I just looked up non animal proteins, so I will cut out the taquito and start adding tofu(possibly provide good hydration, as well), beans, and nuts. The need protein for good reproduction, Would this suffice?


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## agent A

Why is he so skinny? I can see ribs lol

Also, why don't u take several dubias a week and put them in a separate cage for gutloading

That way, u have protein filled ones for continuing the colony and vegan ones for the chams?

Just a thought


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## CoolMantid

agent A said:


> Why is he so skinny? I can see ribs lol
> 
> Also, why don't u take several dubias a week and put them in a separate cage for gutloading
> 
> That way, u have protein filled ones for continuing the colony and vegan ones for the chams?
> 
> Just a thought


That is a good idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I totally agree


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## warpdrive

agent A said:


> Why is he so skinny? I can see ribs lol
> 
> Also, why don't u take several dubias a week and put them in a separate cage for gutloading
> 
> That way, u have protein filled ones for continuing the colony and vegan ones for the chams?
> 
> Just a thought


not a bad idea, but beans are fine for protein if you want to keep them all on a vegan diet.

mantids are also insectivores so beans sound better then animal protein.

80% of cricket crack is beans btw...it's the only dry food I'll give my roaches or crickets. I use a sice of orange as a water source for when dry food is used. it not only has calcium in it, but oranges are loved by roaches and crickets as if it was a hot fudge sunday.

Harry


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## patrickfraser

I have an orange tree in my back yard so oranges are used instead of water crystals. I don't know why he's so skinny. Maybe he's self conscious about getting too fat....Just like his daddy. :lol: They both tear through 6-8 1/4"-1/2" dubias a day and I also give them BBs by the dozen(That's fun to watch). Should they be eating more? I have the food, but after some feeding they seem full and don't want any more. I don't use a feeding cup and just use hand feeding. It's a great relationship builder. I will let the flies go in the cage, because they won't be around long. I don't know what skinny or fat is for a chameleon. I'll have to get a scale to track their weight to record gains or losses.


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## agent A

I learned that with any animal, vertebrae and ribs should not be visible under skin

It's hard to balance lol


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## warpdrive

with chameleons, you will see bones all the time as they contort their body. they also inflate or flaten out. I tend to look at the legs and tail to "watch the thickness". chunky legs and your chams are getting fat. see too many bones all the time? too thin.

supers are fatning and so are wax worms. both should be rarly used. but are not bad in putting on a bit of grams.

see if going to a size of roach just one molt smaller and up the count a bit. see if he takes more now each day.

the head issue I've seen before. I wish I could give you a true reason, but what I can say is that it is both not your fault, nor the breeders. this is a defect that happens normaly after the seller ships and then too soon for the buyer to do something so wrong.

it can happen to one baby and not the rest of the clutch, and is normaly this low.

what are your misting times and for how long do you mist by hand? (unrelated, as I don't think it's hydration because his eyes look too good.)

I'll relook at your photos, but he looked healthy. (edit: just checked. he looks perfect otherwise. his legs and tail are just what a normal boy will look like at his age.)

Harry


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## patrickfraser

Thank you for your input. For misting I use a pump mister and give the cage a good spray down in the morning about 7:30-8 after they've gotten up, when I get home from work about 1-2(maybe 3), and another about 5. I make sure that all the plants are nice and wet with each misting. I have never watered the plants, as the misting gives them plenty of water.

How old would you guess? 2 months? I've had them 1 month on Feb 8. What age chameleon should one purchase? Should they have been sold at such a young age? I really like having the opportunity to raise them from a young age and see them mature. I think we've created a pretty good bond, even though I rarely even take them out. When I do, they are calm and relaxed (no "flare ups" or hissing/biting (never have...I hope never will). Maybe a little hissing would be ok. :lol: I've seen some videos where they are just "not having it" and get all puffed,hissing, and rocking back and forth. Pretty funny stuff, but keep your fingers clear.


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## patrickfraser

Here's some pics after the morning shower today. Looking "healthier"? It's all about the lighting. :lol: 












And the female...


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## agent A

they grew up so fast!!! ^_^ inch: :sweatdrop:


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## warpdrive

misting times a day is great, but I'm still not sure for how long each time that you mist.

try to mist for at least 5 mins per misting. this gives them time to realise that it's drinking time.

otherwise, they are looking great.

the best time to sell a baby is about 3 month old. they are now old enough to ship and are strong enough to deal with rookie mistakes.

I too like to raise them from a baby and watch them color up.

Harry


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## patrickfraser

Misting times vary depending on the wetness, but for 5 minutes at the least. I guess I was able to get them younger as they were purchased at a show and didn't need to be shipped. They still have a lot more growing and colors to come in.


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## patrickfraser

I just missed the tongue shot, but caught the worm before the first munch. It's funny that It looks like a puff of calcium dust around the worm from the impact of flying into the mouth. It looks like he knows to close his eyes to avoid it. They love their silkworms. GOT SILK? :lol: I just noticed, but it looks like it scared the  out of the silkworm. Dessert?


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## CoolMantid

Dang. My pier just got a chameleon, you two make me so upset!!!!!


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## patrickfraser

Had the chams out today in this gorgeous California weather (currently 90 degrees here). Thought this was an adorable shot of my boy just "hanging" out. I thought it was adorable. He is camera shy. :lol:


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## angelofdeathzz

It was a hefty 38 degrees here in my Michigan Igloo today, 19 tonight! But my Idolo get the Cali 90 degree stuff lol, while I wait for my feet to thaw? :lol: 

Love'n your little guy's!


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## ddvw123abc

Got a three year old veiled as my first reptile and chameleon. Isn't a fan of me yet, but he tried to snag a cricket out of my hand and missed, and wouldn't try again    Also, my cham seems to stay his dark colors, like he is mad or stressed, but i have a drip system, and mist him well. Maybe I should feed him a bit more, hmm. He's starting to color down a bit though.


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## patrickfraser

Mine are getting bigger and showing a little color, but they have a lot of growing up to do. Mine rarely go dark on me. Yours may just need to get used to you. Good luck with him


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## patrickfraser

Here's a pic of my male yesterday. He is getting some really pretty colors. :wub:


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## agent A

Pretty!! Wat exactly is he doing??


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## patrickfraser

He was just sitting on the outdoor ficus soaking up some sun. I thought the arched back was strange, but he just kept that position. He reminded me a lot of the chameleon from Monster's Inc.


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## warpdrive

I feel that they do that pose when they feel that they need more D3 from the sun or your lights.

This is fully normal and should not be worried about.

Harry


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## agent A

Oh, I thought he was tryin to take a dump or something


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## Myrmecologist2

Aww, I'm jealous. Chams have always been on my want list but the UVB bulbs and expensive caging always puts me off. I got a couple thousand dubias that are no longer being used for reptiles, (Lets just say my chickens are pretty carnivorous around these times) and I'm terribly wanting some more lizards so I can put these to good use!


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## patrickfraser

Thought I'd share some new sleeping photos. Nice colors and getting bigger...

Male:






I think his tail is pretty. The colors are more vibrant if you tilt the screen. Makes the orange really pop! 





...and my female


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## mkayum

Beautiful! Chubby aren't they? Their size kind scare me a bit.

Do you have any experiences caring for the pygmy chameleons? What kind of UVB (zoomed or any brand of uvb) that you'd recommend? I have been researching for this pygmy chameleon and would love to have one.


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## patrickfraser

they aren't too chubby. when they sleep they kinda hunker down and compact themselves for a "sturdy" sleep. I use a repti-glo 5.0 48" and a 6500k fluorescent in a double hood over both cages (2x2x4') and a 65 watt light for basking. They get taken out regularly for natural sun. I have him out right now. They love the sun and don't like to go back inside.


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## sinensispsyched

Sounds like me!


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## mkayum

patrickfraser said:


> they aren't too chubby. when they sleep they kinda hunker down and compact themselves for a "sturdy" sleep. I use a repti-glo 5.0 48" and a 6500k fluorescent in a double hood over both cages (2x2x4') and a 65 watt light for basking. They get taken out regularly for natural sun. I have him out right now. They love the sun and don't like to go back inside.


Thanks for the advice!


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## patrickfraser

If interested in other info, there is a chameleon forum for research before you take the "dive" and also to help with their keeping. http://www.chameleonforums.com/forum.php It would be best to get everything set up and working before the purchase of the chameleon. Good luck if you choose to get one...or 2.  Some people have more. The forum also has a classified section and I've seen some good offers, but 2 is my limit...for now.


----------



## warpdrive

Like mantids, you'll get more. Lol

Harry


----------



## patrickfraser

I thought I'd share some recent photos and videos of my veileds. Female is weighing in at 100 grams and the male is 90 grams.

Male (getting beautiful oranges)





Female


----------



## agent A

:lol: 

very cool, i thought reptiles grew slowly


----------



## warpdrive

Looks like they are turning out fantastic.

Harry


----------



## patrickfraser

I am totally loving them. Even though they can be feisty, I still like to take them out for sunning and some handling. Mostly it's just taking them out and putting them on an outside, potted ficus. I do my best to provide them everything they need, but I still worry about MBD and everything else that could happen if not kept properly. I was looking at the males back legs and thought they looked "crooked" and thought "OMG, MDB!". But I think he's just getting thicker calves. They sure grow fast. That male is gonna be pretty fearsome as an adult. He shows A LOT of oranges and have heard of a "Sunburst" veiled. Is that just a fancy name if they have more orange? His coloring is only going to get more amazing and a shed should be coming up soon.


----------



## lunarstorm

Awesome update, thanks for sharing the videos! Your chams are so striking (especially the male!) that I'm seriously tempted to get a pair.


----------



## agent A

R all chams grumpy like tht?

And yes I heard the news report on the murder in the background :lol:


----------



## warpdrive

Grumpy? No. Just testy Veilds.

Harry


----------



## patrickfraser

They're very "territorial". They like their space and don't want to be bothered. It's kinda funny, though I wouldn't want to let him get a hold of me. Sometimes when he's on my hand, he'll turn with his mouth open and look like he's gonna go for me. AHHHHH! DON"T BITE ME! LOL.


----------



## agent A

not as bad as me biting someone :lol: 

in 7th grade i bit someone in gym class and since i hadnt brushed my teeth for 2 days they got a big bruise and infection on their arm a few days later


----------



## patrickfraser

EWWWWW!


----------



## agent A

patrickfraser said:


> EWWWWW!


Lol its not as bad as the time my mom said I had rabies out loud in public (I really didn't have any such disease lol we were joking) and peeps freaked out and someone called animal control :lol:


----------



## sinensispsyched

Are you serious?!


----------



## rs4guy

And why are you biting peole when in 7th grade? That's preschool type behavior IMO....


----------



## patrickfraser

This is my female after sunning and the sun was starting to go down. She was totally darkened up on the one side to suck up as much warmth as possible. When she saw me coming for her, she flipped sideways and revealed her 2 tone underbelly. She is getting prettier colors.


----------



## CoolMantid

Whoa! they are stunning!


----------



## angelofdeathzz

rs4guy said:


> And why are you biting peole when in 7th grade? That's preschool type behavior IMO....


Lol, and not brushing your teeth for 2 day's, YUCK!!!


----------



## jrh3

patrickfraser said:


> This is my female after sunning and the sun was starting to go down. She was totally darkened up on the one side to suck up as much warmth as possible. When she saw me coming for her, she flipped sideways and revealed her 2 tone underbelly. She is getting prettier colors.


Those are Receptive colors. She is wanting to breed. If you show her a male and she turns dark with neon glowing markings then she is already gravid. If you dont have a laying bin already in her cage I would put one in there because she will start developing eggs soon depending on her diet. You dont want her egg bound. I used to breed chameleons if you need any advice just PM me.


----------



## patrickfraser

She's got a lying bin. I added that about 2 weeks ago. She seems a little restless and climbs the screen more than usual. I hope she passes them successfully. So if she stays this color when seeing the male she has some time before laying and if she turns black it should be sooner than later? Either way she's got a laying bin in the cage. Is the laying bin a permanent fixture in the female's cage or only something added at "laying time"?


----------



## jrh3

I would permenantly leave it just to be safe. If she stays that color when seeing a male she will let him breed. If she turns black with neon markings she already has eggs and wont breed, how old is she, I bred mine at 9to12 months, after tjat she will come receptive every 3 months.


----------



## patrickfraser

OMG! Every 3 months? I just got her on Jan 9, as a baby. Boy they grow up fast. That's her, on the left.


----------



## jrh3

Is that the same cham you posyed with the blue and orange spots¿ That must be a pic of the pair when you first got them but they seen atleast 5 months old on that pic


----------



## agent A

can't u keep them both together in a huge screen cage so they can mate as they please? they wont eat each other will they?


----------



## jrh3

No too much stress on the female, think about how they are in the wild, yeman tall trees, they dont live in groups


----------



## patrickfraser

Who knows how old they are (now or then). I'll just consider Jan 9 their "adoption" day as hatch date is not known.


----------



## jrh3

I have hatched out over 600 babies and judging from the pics id say 4 to 5 months on the janurary pics


----------



## patrickfraser

jrh3 said:


> Those are Receptive colors. She is wanting to breed. If you show her a male and she turns dark with neon glowing markings then she is already gravid. If you dont have a laying bin already in her cage I would put one in there because she will start developing eggs soon depending on her diet. You dont want her egg bound. I used to breed chameleons if you need any advice just PM me.


You mean like these colors? Whoah! Definitely NOT wanting any love. :lol:


----------



## jrh3

I would say she is gravid already. Nice Pic BTW.


----------



## jrh3

When i started really getting into chameleons I joined www.chameleonforums.com . there is tons of info that get into detail about breeding and the color displays and everything else. It is like the mantid forum for chameleons, lol.

If you ever run across Mellers chameleons, Im looking for some.


----------



## rs4guy

Mellers are AWESOME!!!!! So are the Parsons, though super pricey!


----------



## patrickfraser

Today, it seems she has "discovered" her laying bin and she's been digging all day. She's a dirty little thing. It looks like the tunnel is holding and she's getting pretty deep. I have yet to see her turned around to lay. I'll be peeking in on her throughout the day, as I have put a sheet up for her to have privacy.


----------



## jrh3

nice keep us posted, you will know when she has laid, she will be skinny and super black and stressed looking.


----------



## jrh3

best thing to do is catch her before she covers the whole so you dont have to dig, lol.


----------



## patrickfraser

I dug these up today. There were 44 total.


----------



## agent A

Wow!!! How big r they??


----------



## patrickfraser

Maybe an inch. They are like rubbery, squishy jelly beans.


----------



## agent A

patrickfraser said:


> Maybe an inch. They are like rubbery, squishy jelly beans.


are they fertile??


----------



## CoolMantid

Are you selling some when they hatch?


----------



## agent A

he should sell eggs, my mom loves to eat omlettes :tt2:


----------



## patrickfraser

They are not fertile. Maybe next time. If next time it takes 6-9 months of incubation before they hatch. So maybe, in a year I might have babies.


----------



## CoolMantid

Okey


----------



## jrh3

ooo i forgot to add when you are digging them up, take a marker and put a dot on the egg before you remove them. Then have to stay in the same position as they were laid or they wont hatch. Just when your digging them up put a dot on them and place them that side up in the incubator. Oh yeah hatchrite is the best substrate i have used.


----------



## patrickfraser

No worries on this clutch, as they are infertile. I did learn on the chameleon forum you don't have to mark the eggs if dug up immediately, as there has not been enough time for an air pocket to form in the egg. I also learned to NOT wash them. Good thing they were duds.


----------



## patrickfraser

The infertile eggs were sent off to a chameleon forum member to feed an egg eating snake.  

This is the female molting for the first time after laying. She was so dirty and lost a lot of color and has been pretty dull lately. She was not happy with shedding, but is looking a lot nicer. The boy is getting bigger every day, it seems. He is now quite a bit larger than the female.


----------



## patrickfraser

I thought I had posted this here, but it seems I didn't. Here's a current photo of my boy "fired up". "Me so horny. Me love you long time"






and these are his "just hanging out" colors.


----------



## rs4guy

Nice looking male, good colors, nice size too.


----------



## patrickfraser

He is a handfull. :lol: People talk of veiled being mean, but I think they are just temperamental. He always acts like he's gonna bite me and hisses at me when I try to get him out. The other day he must have been half asleep or something, but I was able to stick my hand in and he got right on with no problems. I thought it was the beginning of something. NOT! Next day, back to same old pissy self. Gotta love em. :wub:


----------



## jrh3

Bite does hurt, lol you will bleed.


----------



## rs4guy

Yea, but not that bad, I'll take a Cham bite over a mantis bite anyday.


----------



## ShieldMantid1997

I am used to my beardies, so when i saw the progress these guy made i was shocked!


----------



## rs4guy

Speaking of beardies, I fed 3 adult female Blue flashes to mine on Friday, bit sad, but they were in rough shape, last few hours of their lives, due to old age. He was happy though!


----------



## ShieldMantid1997

Those are some healthy snacks!


----------



## jrh3

rs4guy said:


> Yea, but not that bad, I'll take a Cham bite over a mantis bite anyday.


You must not have ever been bitten buy a full grown adult male chameleon.

They draw blood.


----------



## Crazy4mantis

I used to have a male that I gave away to a breeder. He got HUGE!!! Never gave me any problems, either. I still have his giant metal screen cage that I'm wondering what to do with. It has holes from sticks I put in there. He was kept outside during the day. He was a happy guy. Always a light green and yellow. Except when I annoyed him, lol.


----------



## Termite48

Scott: Your male is much more colorful than the male I had a few years ago. I do not think that compared to your male, that there is more or beautiful coloration by going to a Panther. There are a lot of boring colored chamys. Yours is not one of those. You should get some nice looking babies next time around for the female. Too bad that huge clutch is infertile.


----------



## patrickfraser

I have an update on my pair. This morning the male took advantage of his cage being open and was over on the females cage "looking for love". The female did not turn black, but almost seemed to be trying to get his attention and was very green and with lots of turquoise. I thought I'd open up the girls cage and see what happened. He climbed right up on her, got a good grip, and the mating commenced. They were together for about 45 minutes. When they finished, I removed the male, as I was not going to be home to "supervise". I will see how they react to one another when I get home and if they seem "interested", I will let them go at it again.

Maybe in about 9 months I will have babies. I don't know if they are related or not, so I may be inbreeding.  

When I purchased them originally I had told the lady that I wanted a male and female to breed in the future when they came of age. She had 2 cages and had me choose one from each. I don't know if they were different clutches, males/females, or what else the different cages might mean. I just don't think that a known breeder would sell a related pair to someone stating that they were going to be mating them in the future. I guess I'll be finding out next year sometime. :sweatdrop:


----------



## lancaster1313

Wow, that was quick! I turned my back for a minute and your cute babies are all grown up.  I feel old. lol.


----------



## patrickfraser

The girl loves a good flash (Blue flash, that is). She just wishes they didn't hang on so well.












FINALLY!


----------



## patrickfraser

They're in LOVE! :wub: :wub:


----------



## aNisip

patrickfraser said:


> They're in LOVE! :wub: :wub:


And making love


----------



## agent A

Yum!! Got any xtra blue flashes? I got a hungry majuscula...

Also if the babies r inbred stock u can probably eat them :chef:


----------



## patrickfraser

agent A said:


> Yum!! Got any xtra blue flashes? I got a hungry majuscula...
> 
> Also if the babies r inbred stock u can probably eat them :chef:


Or just feed them to _my _viridis, valida, or majuscula. :lol:


----------



## angelofdeathzz

I can see it in her eye's "tastes like chicken" but goes down like a hair brush. :lol:


----------



## agent A

patrickfraser said:


> Or just feed them to _my _viridis, valida, or majuscula. :lol:


Why would u do that  

But I'm kinda scared because this thread is catching up to the tadpole thing

And I bet a firebelly toad can beat a Cham in a fight lol


----------



## patrickfraser

Send one my way and I will take a video for you. :devil:


----------



## agent A

patrickfraser said:


> Send one my way and I will take a video for you. :devil:


I dont think u wanna poison your precious chameleons...


----------



## patrickfraser

They're poisonous? KEEP IT! :lol:


----------



## agent A

patrickfraser said:


> They're poisonous? KEEP IT! :lol:


U JUST NOTICED?? Even with the red belly and me saying it over and over??


----------



## patrickfraser

I thought they were only poisonous in the wild and being kept captive they lost it. What do I know about frogs/toads? Notalot,


----------



## agent A

patrickfraser said:


> I thought they were only poisonous in the wild and being kept captive they lost it. What do I know about frogs/toads? Notalot,


Ugh that's only dart frogs because dart frogs eat stuff to make them poisonous

These guys make their own poison with their skin


----------



## Extrememantid

Do not handle them, they will stress out and die easy... Big open cage. You can tell if they are male or female from the pores on the back of their legs. That little girl is scared, that why she turned grey, don't make any quick movements near them and no flash photos... If you find out ones male, ones female. You should separate them, immature breeding will kill, that happened with me and my female died and male lived. You can't just ignore them if they are getting hungry after a few days, they need running water to drink from they will NOT drink from a WATER BOWL/DISH you need to mist them every night and morning, they will drink the drops of water, and you should invest in a mini water fall. Exo Terra is the best brand. Don't just throw insects into the Terra, move them into a smaller feeding tank with like one or two branches to climb on and no substrate, use paper towel or news paper for substrate I. Their real Terra. Or you can tweezer feed them.

Hope I helped!


----------



## Extrememantid

Crazy4mantis said:


> I used to have a male that I gave away to a breeder. He got HUGE!!! Never gave me any problems, either. I still have his giant metal screen cage that I'm wondering what to do with. It has holes from sticks I put in there. He was kept outside during the day. He was a happy guy. Always a light green and yellow. Except when I annoyed him, lol.


I'll buy it.


----------



## Extrememantid

I'll buy a baby from you! Why would you feed a mantis!? You could have sold her to me?


----------



## Extrememantid

Don't move the eggs and place them in a substrate and incubate them!


----------



## patrickfraser

It's strange that you don't mention anything about UVB lighting, basking, temps, or even supplementation with Calcium, Calcium +D3, and Multi-vitamins. Also, suggesting a mini waterfall is what most of the chameleon forum is against, as it is a breeding ground for bacteria which could make the chameleon sick. The eggs are fine to be moved or turned if freshly laid, as there has not been any chance for an air pocket to form which is when they must not be turned.

I think I've done pretty well raising them with the info received on the chameleon forum, but thanks. I think I got this one covered.


----------



## rs4guy

jrh3 said:


> You must not have ever been bitten buy a full grown adult male chameleon.
> 
> They draw blood.


I got bit HARD by a huge male panther, it hurts sure, but those creepy scizzor like mandibles of a mantis cut through skin like a hot knife through butter.


----------



## aNisip

patrickfraser said:


> It's strange that you don't mention anything about UVB lighting, basking, temps, or even supplementation with Calcium, Calcium +D3, and Multi-vitamins. Also, suggesting a mini waterfall is what most of the chameleon forum is against, as it is a breeding ground for bacteria which could make the chameleon sick. The eggs are fine to be moved or turned if freshly laid, as there has not been any chance for an air pocket to form which is when they must not be turned.
> 
> I think I've done pretty well raising them with the info received on the chameleon forum, but thanks. I think I got this one covered.


Hahaha


----------



## lancaster1313

patrickfraser said:


> It's strange that you don't mention anything about UVB lighting, basking, temps, or even supplementation with Calcium, Calcium +D3, and Multi-vitamins. Also, suggesting a mini waterfall is what most of the chameleon forum is against, as it is a breeding ground for bacteria which could make the chameleon sick. The eggs are fine to be moved or turned if freshly laid, as there has not been any chance for an air pocket to form which is when they must not be turned.
> 
> I think I've done pretty well raising them with the info received on the chameleon forum, but thanks. I think I got this one covered.


I think you have done excellent! I was so surprised to see how beautiful they have become, so quickly.


----------



## patrickfraser

My chameleon laid her eggs! She covered her hole on the 1st. After my birthday dinner, last night, I had my friend take me to Home Depot for some vermiculite for incubating the eggs. I dug them up and have them in the vermiculite for hatching. It will be 9 months before anything hatches...IF anything hatches. I'll have to keep an eye out for bad eggs and remove them if they mold over. There are 62 eggs total that she laid. I can't believe all those were in her.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ME! :happybday: and happy "getting laid" day to them. :lol:


----------



## Mime454

When I was 11 or 12 I had some vields. Got them mated and she laid eggs. Science teacher wanted to see them and incubate them for awhile. Idiot left the light too close and fried them. I was so sad.


----------



## agent A

Mime454 said:


> When I was 11 or 12 I had some vields. Got them mated and she laid eggs. Science teacher wanted to see them and incubate them for awhile. Idiot left the light too close and fried them. I was so sad.


i woulda went back and fried him :devil: 

i saw on bones a torture method where u bind someone to a chair and heat a screwdriver with a blowtorch and touch it to various skin areas...


----------



## patrickfraser

agent A said:


> i woulda went back and fried him :devil:
> 
> i saw on bones a torture method where u bind someone to a chair and heat a screwdriver with a blowtorch and touch it to various skin areas...


This is the fftopic:  that pollutes threads. NOTHING to do with MY chameleons. :no:


----------



## agent A

patrickfraser said:


> This is the fftopic:  that pollutes threads. NOTHING to do with MY chameleons. :no:


oh sorry anyways r u gonna sell the babies when they hatch??


----------



## jrh3

those eggs dont look like they are any good. Most of mine were for the most part white but it depends on what she laid them in.


----------



## patrickfraser

They were laid in plain old top soil. I think it stained the eggs. Wait and see, I guess. They haven't started to cave in and shrink like the first infertile clutch. I was told not to rinse them, so I just dug them up and placed them in the vermiculite and was careful not to rotate them too much. I'll just keep my fingers crossed. It's not like she won't lay another clutch, so I'm not too concerned.


----------



## jrh3

Maybe they are good. I should have panther eggs this time next year, lol.


----------



## patrickfraser

This is my male wearing his "pajamas". That's what people call their sleeping colors. :sleeping:


----------



## Bug Trader

Congrats on the breeding/egg production, you are wise to follow the guys on the Cham forum's advice and keep up the calcium intake repashy is the best as egg production can lead to deficiencies. You may see another clutch or even 2 laid as well so watch for digging/nesting the eggs look fine top soil will leave them stained if left buried in it for a while. Be prepared for the incubation time, many people lose out due to simple stuff like power outages and sudden temp changes. Also be ready with alot of thriving ff cultures.


----------



## sueb4653

ff cultures how big are they when they hatch?


----------



## Bug Trader

They average about an inch long plus the tail. Trust me you cant keep enough Hydei in culture to keep a clutch of chams well fed.


----------



## jrh3

Bug Trader said:


> Congrats on the breeding/egg production, you are wise to follow the guys on the Cham forum's advice and keep up the calcium intake repashy is the best as egg production can lead to deficiencies. You may see another clutch or even 2 laid as well so watch for digging/nesting the eggs look fine top soil will leave them stained if left buried in it for a while. Be prepared for the incubation time, many people lose out due to simple stuff like power outages and sudden temp changes. Also be ready with alot of thriving ff cultures.


Over the years i spent with chameleons replahy is good but the best i have ever come by is stickytongue minerall. I will win hands down. Im on the chameleon forum as well.


----------



## Bug Trader

Yeah its great, and the old fail safes like repcal and herptivite will always be leaned on as well by many as well but Repashy is advancing everything pretty regular and putting new stuff out I know Allan Repashy and he did wonders for the advancments in the dart frog hobby nutrition, and hes out to rebuild a master set of nutrients/vits for all the herp hobby. I was one of the lucky ones who got to test some of the products before they came out.Good luck with your chams as well,


----------



## jrh3

Thats good to hear, improvement s are always needed.


----------



## patrickfraser

Out of the 62 eggs, 10 started to mold over and were removed into a separate container on the 15th. Today, out of the 10 that were moldy, 6 have gotten really bad with one caving in and 4 seem to have stopped any further mold production. I have separated them within the "bag egg" bin.







And as for the other 52...They seem to be doing fine with no molding or caving. This wait is going to be RIDICULOUS! 9 MONTHS! I have a hard time waiting for an ooth if it's longer than a month. :lol:


----------



## hierodula

Your patience rewarded it shall be  :clown: Good luck man!


----------



## angelofdeathzz

Very nice, well done! :clap: 

Are they called Veiled Chameleons for a reason, like a middle east thing were they have to walk ten feet behind someone in public and never show their face? That must be it.


----------



## patrickfraser

I think it has to do with the casque. They are also called Yemen chameleons, as they originated there. So, maybe?????


----------



## patrickfraser

Had my male out today. He's looking good. Too bad he doesn't like his picture taken. I can never get his bright colors, unless he's trying to impress the female. As soon as he sees me coming with the camera, it's like he just turns them off.


----------



## Mime454

You're making me want chameleons again. He looks very lazy.


----------



## jrh3

patrickfraser said:


> I was putting the babies to bed tonight and when their lights went out, they just left their basking spots where they usually hang out and made a bee-line straight to the new umbrella plants I added recently. They knew it was bedtime. Also, the female turned a ghostly grey color which I had never seen her do. I will be getting surprises of different colors as they grow older and get their adult coloring. Little by little, kinda like a mantis molting, I guess I'll have to wait. I have no clue what colors to expect. But here's the spooky girl. Really cute picture, I think.


she is probably about to shed. Veiled females will stay green until ready to breed and gravid. the males are gonna be green with either bluish, orange, or yellow markings. There is no taming them, but some are more tempermental. If you have one that is stubborn and mean they will remain that way forever, lol, or at least that was my experience. Also veileds are to me the meanest species of chameleons. I have had over 100 veileds when i was breeding them and they are cool but mostly just to look at. Heck im even having a time with one of my panthers he was wanting to bite me since day one. His mate will walk out on my hand, lol. Be sure to put a laying bin in there when she is about 5 months old.


----------



## gripen

jrh3 said:


> she is probably about to shed. Veiled females will stay green until ready to breed and gravid. the males are gonna be green with either bluish, orange, or yellow markings. There is no taming them, but some are more tempermental. If you have one that is stubborn and mean they will remain that way forever, lol, or at least that was my experience. Also veileds are to me the meanest species of chameleons. I have had over 100 veileds when i was breeding them and they are cool but mostly just to look at. Heck im even having a time with one of my panthers he was wanting to bite me since day one. His mate will walk out on my hand, lol. Be sure to put a laying bin in there when she is about 5 months old.


Dude this was from almost a year ago.... Read the whole thread I think he is competent.


----------



## patrickfraser

Isn't he pretty? :wub: Egg update...8 of the 10 separated got really bad and I tossed them and it looks like 2 made a recovery and show no new mold. One of the other 52 looks like it may be bad, but no mold or caving, so I'm leaving it for now. So with possibly 9 down there are still 53 promising out of the clutch.


----------



## angelofdeathzz

They are a thing of beauty! I would get some but my wife would stroke out if I got any more critters... Haha

Wish you the best of luck with all those eggs.


----------



## fleurdejoo

Wow! They are so beautiful.


----------



## patrickfraser

Checked on the eggs today and found one with black and one with white mold. Down to 51, I guess.


----------



## angelofdeathzz

Awesome photo's of the male, hope your egg cluch ends up with many hatches( I want a few) for ya!  :clover:


----------



## CoolMantid

How long do these take to hatch? If you are selling babies add me to the list


----------



## patrickfraser

They take 9 months! Talk about a waiting game.

Here's my male from last night. "Hey Buddy, Spare some chapstick".


----------



## hierodula

Lol, love the pic. How about "hey, got milk?"


----------



## patrickfraser

This is my female getting ready for bed. Such an array of different colorings they have.


----------



## CoolMantid

Did you get these at the Pomona Show? Are you going again this year?


----------



## patrickfraser

Yes, it was the Pomona reptile show. I purchased them from an outfit called Amazing Blue Reptiles. I believe they were out of San Diego. I will try to go again.


----------



## patrickfraser

My female is digging again. I guess she's ready to lay another clutch.











This is my male. He was on my hand and backed up and snuggled up in the sleeve of my bathrobe.


----------



## aNisip

Do you have to mate her again everytime she lays a clutch? Or do the females store the sperm like the mantises...that male is adorable!


----------



## agent A

I seriously hope thats your arm hes clinging to


----------



## patrickfraser

I have read that they can retain sperm for a future clutch, but when she becomes receptive I will let them mate. You know, it's only natural. :lol:


----------



## patrickfraser

She's getting deeper today. Might just possibly have a clutch laid for Christmas. I'm off to the family's, so I will see when I get home.


----------



## aNisip

She's dissappearing! Don't let her get away!  how deep is the dirt bin? Are you going to give her a bath when she's all done?


----------



## patrickfraser

The laying bin is a big planter like 12" with about 9-10" of topsoil. I came home and found he hole somewhat covered and her just as fat as she was, so maybe tomorrow. This was her before I turned the lights out. She's a dirty girl. I will mist her as usual, but I don't want to stress her out while laying, as she can become eggbound. She will just get dirty again when she digs tomorrow. I will give her a long shower and a large feast once the eggs are laid. Hopefully tomorrow.


----------



## Mime454

They're kinda cute when they're dirty. She's huge! I wished I lived in a place where I could just go outside and find them! But I probably wouldn't be on mantidforum then.


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## patrickfraser

It looks like today might be the day. She's got a nice cave that is big enough for her to turn around in. I was trying not to disturb her by taking the photo through the screen, but as you can see I was spotted. :lol:


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## hierodula

Lol shes like what are *you *looking at?


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## sinensispsyched

WOW! Good luck with the hopeful laying!


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## patrickfraser

She still has not layed her eggs. She covered the one hole and has now started one opposite the first. I guess she knows what she's doing. I don't know their "cycle", but the last clutch was laid on October 1st. If not laid by the new year, I might have to start to worry. She's going through all the motions, so she's probably waiting for the "THIS IS IT!" or "UH OH" moment. My mom always said that babies come when they're ready. I guess the same can hold true for eggs.

This morning when i misted her she was really thirsty and was drinking right from my hand sprayer. Soooooo cute. If I had more hands I'd take photos. :lol:


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## agent A

warpdrive says it's bad to even watch them lay eggs and that they can become eggbound that way


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## patrickfraser

She has seen me each time she has laid before. I think it's more if they are stressed or feel threatened. I think mine are pretty secure with me. I do put up a privacy curtain (you can see it in some of the laying pics, just an old sheet), but she always catches me peeking (maybe I peek to often :lol: ) . Don't ask me how, since they don't hear. It's a "mother's intuition", I guess.


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## patrickfraser

I woke up and checked on my female this morning and she was covering her hole and looked MUCH thinner.











I got my incubating container prepped decided to do a little excavating when she left the laying bin and found the "tip of the iceberg".






I finished digging them up and there are a total of 50. I think the first clutch I left for a day or 2 and were stained by the topsoil (first clutch down to 50). These are a lot more white and what I am used to seeing.











This is her taking a drink from the sprayer.


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## agent A

Niiiice!!! :clap: 

I might have to get a cham one day...


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## patrickfraser

I left the cages open a crack at lights out to easily sneak in and get some sleeping pics of my chams in their "PJs".

This is my male. He is going through a shed presently and is mostly done, except for his tail.







This is my female. She still looks really thin and boney compared to being full of eggs.






OOOOOPS! She caught me.


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## agent A

LOL!!!


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## patrickfraser

I took a penlight to the eggs laid in October and I can see veins in a lot of them. It is a little hard to see them due to the staining from the soil, but they are definitely there. Some look completely clear and may be infertile. They haven't molded or caved in, so i will just leave them. I'll have to get a count of "possibles" out of the 50. They should be hatching between April and June. This will be truly exciting. 3 months after this batch hatches, I'll have 50 more hatching! This will be challenging and might get pricey. :blink:  At least I have feeders covered.   I will see if I can get photos of the veins in the eggs.


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## agent A

From the time a veiled egg is laid to the tine it hatches i can have 2 batches of fbt tads grow :lol:


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## patrickfraser

I was able to get some pics tonight showing the veins. When I bumped an egg with the penlight, I could see the veins inside move. Kind of like looking into a womb. Now to just keep the temps right, vermiculite moist, and the worst part, wait.


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## agent A

Groovy! Is that an eye i see???


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## patrickfraser

The dark spots are the egg staining.


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## Bug Trader

They look good, Make sure and have your hydei ready they go through them.


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## Mime454

That looks really cool!


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## patrickfraser

Bug Trader said:


> They look good, Make sure and have your hydei ready they go through them.


How many cultures should I have working to feed 50 babies? I make them regularly, but I might just have to increase production depending on how much they will eat. I currently get by with making about 3 a week and that more than covers all my nymphs.


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## agent A

Bug Trader said:


> They look good, Make sure and have your hydei ready they go through them.


are hatchlings really that tiny they need hydei at first??


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## patrickfraser

They are this small...






Photograph by The Chameleon Farm


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## Mime454

Awww!


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## agent A

Awwwwww :wub: but my toadlets r half that size and way too big for hydeis :lol:


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## sally

so so so cute


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## patrickfraser

Cue Cyndi Lauper's "True Colors"............



I cranked up the color saturation on this one. WHOAH! (Whenever photobucket updates it. lol)...still waiting...THERE IT IS!


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## agent A

Do they shed their skin to keep it clean??


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## patrickfraser

They shed as they grow. It does a good job of cleaning her up after laying.


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## hierodula

ohhhh, the babies are very cute!!! what are you gonna do with all of them?


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## patrickfraser

I'll probably try to sell them on various forums, craigslist, and local "mom &amp; pop" pet/reptile stores.


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## hierodula

i hope they all find good homes patrick! maybe when i have my own house and stuff ill try some chams out! they look really fun!


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## agent A

If they r small enough and your majusculas and rhomboderas get big enough, u have a nice feeder food :devil:


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## patrickfraser

Too expensive a feeder. It's not like I don't have enough feeders already and if I needed some cash isn't a problem.

Photobucket finally updated the "enhanced" photo of my female shedding. Whoah is right and the colors are awesome. She has just about completed her shed and i will see if i could get a good PJ shot tonight.


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## sinensispsyched

Are there any cham sp.s you would recommend to a complete noob? I probably won't get one, but, between the baby pics and your pics, im getting sorta hooked.


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## patrickfraser

I don't know if this is going to work, but this is the color progression of my male veiled from being woken up to being a little grumpy. "PJs to Po'd" :lol: 

http://s1119.beta.photobucket.com/user/patrickfraser/story/9059#


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## Bug Trader

patrickfraser said:


> How many cultures should I have working to feed 50 babies? I make them regularly, but I might just have to increase production depending on how much they will eat. I currently get by with making about 3 a week and that more than covers all my nymphs.


In my experience and the experience of friends in CA and FL who breed them we went through alot of FF for the first 2-3 weeks then onto HF and other feeders. Our hatchlings usually required 1 producing culture for every 2 chams for this time frame they will really go through them. But I would have atleast be sitting on a dozen cultures come time to hatch. I start getting massive amounts of emails for FF int he spring from Cham breeders and its never less than a dozen cultures at a time.


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## patrickfraser

My male was mad today.







He attacked my robe and then bit my arm through my robe. Thee nasty little SOB! :angry:  I got some of the attack on video, which is uploading, but this is him biting my robe and the bite on my arm. The little bugger got the soft backside of my upper arm. If I hadn't have been wearing my robe, he surely would have taken a piece of me.


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## hierodula

Wow! considering they look toothless, they sure do a lot of damage!


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## patrickfraser

The yellow line in his open mouth are all tiny,serrated, and very sharp teeth. He was only able to get a little "nip" due to the bathrobe, but it still broke the skin. If the teeth had been on skin, it would have been a lot larger and possibly missing some flesh.


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## hierodula

O_O wow, vicious little dudes. Im glad my leo isnt like that!


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## agent A

Lol somehow im not surprised


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## lancaster1313

Here I am, not wanting to handle chams very much on account of the grip that they do with those feet. :surrender: 

At least they let you know that they don't want to be bothered. lol


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## aNisip

Hey Scott, youve had them now for over a year, do they ever get used to you? (Like form a bond) ....or does your male just dislike you....A LOT?


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## patrickfraser

They are "semi-tolerant" you might say, but my male just seems really moody lately. This was the first time I ever experienced this type of aggression with him. I thought he might be mad, because I didn't let him get with my receptive female. I decided to let them have some interaction and he just bolted straight towards her in his dark colors and lunged at her. He was snatched up and put into his cage and is on "time out" for the time being. He hasn't really been eating much, so something might be "off" with him or he might be heading towards a shed. Hopefully a shed is coming, because I don't like this attitude he's been throwing. He's really been giving me the stink eye. Oh well, what to do?


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## agent A

patrickfraser said:


> They are "semi-tolerant" you might say, but my male just seems really moody lately. This was the first time I ever experienced this type of aggression with him. I thought he might be mad, because I didn't let him get with my receptive female. I decided to let them have some interaction and he just bolted straight towards her in his dark colors and lunged at her. He was snatched up and put into his cage and is on "time out" for the time being. He hasn't really been eating much, so something might be "off" with him or he might be heading towards a shed. Hopefully a shed is coming, because I don't like this attitude he's been throwing. He's really been giving me the stink eye. Oh well, what to do?


too much testosterone maybe?? i'd try to change something in his environment that might be causing this

amphibian males develop testosterone after a period of cooler, shorter days

maybe if u cool him down a few degrees or shorten the daylight cycle he'll not be in mating season mode anymore??? i'm goin out on a limb here but it could work...


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## patrickfraser

It's always mating season for males. :lol: 

It's mostly dependent on the females receptiveness whether any mating takes place. He did not put on his "look at me" colors as posted previously, so I don't even think mating was on his mind. He is just wanting to be a holy terror. He comes up the the front of the cage and just stares at me, like saying, "Do you dare? Come on, open the cage. I got something for you".  :lol: 

I hope it's just a phase or a shed coming, because I kinda don't like him so much after _that _action.


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## aNisip

Ahh I see...well I hope he stops being a drama queen and gets the job done!  maybe you could find another cham male that can put him in his place (you might put him in the he grave  ) ....I hope you get more babies because I would rather buy one from you than overpriced at a pet shop....keep us posted Scotty boy!

Cheers,

Andrew


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## patrickfraser

Right now I have 2 clutches incubating with 50 eggs each. I don't see veining in a few eggs from the first clutch, but they haven't molded or caved in. The second clutch isn't showing anything yet, except that none have molded or caved in since laid in January. That's a good sign. I will have plenty of babies to deal with and might let her lay her next clutch without mating. They can retain sperm from earlier matings for future clutches, I think. Maybe some of the next clutch will be fertile even without mating.


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## gripen

He looks huge! How long is he?


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## Bug Trader

Veiled males average about 6-7'' body length. Can be 14-18'' on average total length.


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## patrickfraser

My female dug a hole and is now laying her 3rd clutch of eggs. I will dig them up and report as to the number of eggs once she covers them up. Sooo many eggs and the first clutch should be hatching within a month or 2. Babies galore.


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## patrickfraser

I dug up the eggs and gave her a shower. She is always such a dirty girl after laying. Maybe next time I will use sand. She drank up a lot pf water and she feels so much lighter. She laid a total of 61 eggs!

Some pics


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## Mime454

Haven't been following closely. Have any hatched yet?


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## agent A

Mime454 said:


> Haven't been following closely. Have any hatched yet?


cause u were too busy following the tads?   lol jk but none hatched yet

that's a lot of eggs!! the female is cute :wub:


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## patrickfraser

My male is starting a shed and seemed like he was in a mood. He was looking at me like, "where's my breakfast?".






I was thinking his coloring was off and was kind of dull and dark and then I noticed his tail...He's going into major shed mode.






He was fed and being such a beautiful day in California (I'M LOVIN' IT! :cool2: ), I took him out for some sun. A good bake will help him crack the old skin. I will also up his mistings.

At first he stayed dark...






But he warmed up nicely...He's Lovin it, too :cool2:


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## Bug Trader

COngrats on the 3rd clutch, just get the Hydei going, they go through them fast. Thats alot of hatchlings you should have issues finding them homes in CA though.


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## patrickfraser

I know. One day at a time. It's gonna be survival of the fittest. I can judge by the first batch what's involved and depending on demand, or lack there of, cull some eggs from the later clutches First clutch should be hatching pretty soon, April-June...I think.


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## Danny.

I'll take one.


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## jrh3

Pricing Is Everything.


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## patrickfraser

My boy is in major shed mode. He is very ashy and not in the best of moods, but he totally brightens up beautifully when he sleeps. He is going to be absolutely stunning in his new skin.
















...and this is my female. She doesn't get much "face time", but was looking lovely this evening.


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## agent A

u have a nice philodendron


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## patrickfraser

Second clutch of eggs is starting to show veins. :clap: The first clutch should be hatching within the next 2 months. I hope everything goes well and I can manage them all.

...Oh...those are pothos plants. I think philodendron are poisonous if consumed by chameleons and veileds are more apt to chew on their plants. I like the plant, but i'd rather be safe than sorry.


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## patrickfraser

My male is almost finished with his shed. He still has his legs to go, but they will probably "pop" tomorrow. He'll be happy it's over. I can't believe how big he has gotten since I received him. It will be nice to have babies again, but I only had 2 to begin with. What the frack am I gonna do with 50?!?! :huh:  :blink:


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## Malakyoma

I'd probably die from the cuteness of 50 chameleon babies. I can't wait to move out so I can get one or two. They've been a favorite of mine for very long.


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## agent A

cutsey wutsey!! :wub: 



Malakyoma said:


> I'd probably die from the cuteness of 50 chameleon babies. I can't wait to move out so I can get one or two. They've been a favorite of mine for very long.


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## aNisip

When you received yours, they were pretty young, right? And you got them as a pair...so can you determine their sex when they are newborn?

And sounds like you have some hatching or getting ready to hatch, awesome news and good luck with all of them!

All the best,

Andrew


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## patrickfraser

I will have to see when I can see. Males have what is called a tarsal spur on the back of their rear feet. It's like a little nub. You can see it on his back right foot in this photo. It is just smaller when they are young, but they have it.






I am a little bummed about the hatch of the stillborn yesterday. It is definitely not alive.  It appeared to be fully formed, but still had some sort of "skin" covering the eye hole. Maybe it was a premature hatch that wasn't meant to be. Hopefully I get some of these cuties running around soon. I can't wait, but I will have to. It's a good thing I have some extra time to get some fruit flies, as my current cultures have just about all crashed. Thank goodness I don't have nymphs that need them or I'd be screwed.


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## aNisip

I never knew that about the tarsal spur....that makes sexing pretty easy then!

What do the cham forum ppl have to say about the stillborn? Maybe out of the clutch it happens to a few? ....and if u did have nymphs that needed ffs, you could just feed the nymphs


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## patrickfraser

I don't post much there. I use it to get information mainly. I am just chalking it up to "natural causes". I could stand to lose a few, as 50 is quite a number to care for. No egg hatching action today, but all the eggs from the second clutch are veining.


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## sinensispsyched

patrickfraser said:


> I don't post much there. I use it to get information mainly. I am just chalking it up to "natural causes". I could stand to lose a few, as 50 is quite a number to care for. No egg hatching action today, but all the eggs from the second clutch are veining.


Congrats! So exciting!


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## patrickfraser

I had my male veiled out today while checking out the chameleon forum.






I thought he looked good and thought I'd take some more. I don't know if it was the flash, my finger on the button, or just the camera, but he seemed to act agressive. I got a good one of his mouth open.





The next thing I know my camera's getting zapped just when I hit the shutter button. I don't know if I've ever seen anything like this. He almost pulled the camera out of my hand. There is a tongue thwack mark between the flash and the shutter button on the front.


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## agent A

lol


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## sally

That's great! What a lucky shot. Glad the camera is ok


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## aNisip

That's an amazing shot! Submit it to that cham forum! Or like a photowebsite....lots of hits!


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## patrickfraser

I have some action with the eggs!!!! :clap: I think this is called pipping. you can see the egg is oozing and it is coming from a slit in the egg.






As I was watching it oozed some more.











Maybe I'll become a "mother" on Mother's Day. Wouldn't that be something?


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## angelofdeathzz

That is awesome, hope you get them all to hatch out with healthy babies!

May I suggest some windex for that poor laptop, lol. :tt2:


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## fleurdejoo

OMG! OMG! So excited!!!!!


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## patrickfraser

OMG! OMG! I see a nose! :clap:


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## fleurdejoo

I can't stop smiling!!!!

So awesome!! OMG!! :happybday:


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## aNisip

:clap: I'm so happy for u!   :clap: Congratz man! Happy mothers day! I am grinning from ear to ear! ^-^  woot!


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## agent A

awwwwwwww :wub: 

finally they hatch!!!! can't wait to see the children


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## Mime454

Cute! Can't wait to see the babies.


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## fleurdejoo

I am getting one! Yay!


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## fleurdejoo

Hey more pictures!!!!!


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## jrh3

congrats, its been a while huh!!! only thing i hated was the long wait haha.


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## hierodula

YAY!!!!!!


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## sally

Awww, cute little nose.


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## patrickfraser

Baby's first portrait.


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## fleurdejoo

Omg!!! Omg!!! So cool! So cute!

Can't wait to get one!!


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## agent A

pics like that make me wish i had the $$ to get all i need to keep a cham and a mom who would allow a chameleon &lt;_&lt;


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## patrickfraser

More oozing, another head out, and first sleeping pic.


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## fleurdejoo

I'm so excited about these! Love the new pictures!


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## agent A

Awwww :wub:


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## patrickfraser

The newest emergence. I think it's a boy. It is still dragging the yolk sac and i don't want to disrupt anything trying to handle it. I will leave him in with the eggs until it falls off. There are also 3 open eggs with movement and another one with a head popped out. It's amazing to witness,


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## agent A

that's not a yolk sack

but it's certainly a sack and certainly a boy :tt2:


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## aNisip

Awesome! ^-^They already blend in so well! And you have about 50 eggs right? So just wait till a lot of them hatch and put them on your hand or somethin and the cuteness will begin to flood!


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## fleurdejoo

I am loving these updates so much! It's fantastic to see them. Thanks so much. Wish I were there!


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## patrickfraser

No action this morning and the popped out head popped back in. I guess it's not ready for the big bad world just yet.


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## patrickfraser

More babies. It's like a chameleon totem.


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## fleurdejoo

Thank you for the new picture!!


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## agent A

Dawwwwww :wub:


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## thalassarche

Those little babies are killing me with their cute!


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## patrickfraser

This little guy was having a bit of a problem. Head was popping and so was a leg, but i thought the egg was hindering his escape.






I took a pin and put it under the egg from the leg to the head opening and tore the egg. The tail popped out immediately. Isn't it precious? :wub: 
















I then placed it back in the hatchery for it to come out on it's own and not 10 minutes later it was out and on the move.


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## sally

That is one of the most adorable things I have ever seen. Ever.


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## agent A

This is a post from a friend of agent A's

A died of cuteness from the chameleon baby

Then his ghost possessed my body so he could inhabit a physical being and see more cuteness


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## aNisip

Any updates Scott?


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## patrickfraser

One death and a few eggs unhatched, but most of them seem to be doing well. They are eating all their fruit flies like good babies and are as cute as...well, as cute as baby chameleons. :lol: I just got home and need to get them out for some natural sunlight and spray them down.


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## fleurdejoo

So adorable!! SO CUTE!!!


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## patrickfraser

My count is at 43 with only one more egg that may be hatching, but may be expiring, as it is deflating. I still have 4 babies that are "questionable" that I am keeping segregated, just in case. I love when they go all Annie Oakley and snatch a fruit fly off the head of a sibling. They are all over each other at feeding time. :lol:


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## aNisip

Can we get a pic of A. Feeding time B. As many as you can in one hand   

Thanks have a great night!

Ohh and a small order of fries too plz...


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## patrickfraser

I'll see what I can do.


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## patrickfraser

Here's the best i can do with feeding for now. Video is uploading and taking forever. It looks like the show will start in about an hour.


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## agent A

Awwwww :wub:


----------



## patrickfraser

It's showtime.


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## fleurdejoo

That was wonderful! They are the cutest things ever.


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## twolfe

Somehow I missed your updates the past couple of weeks. How exciting. Congratulations on your success! They are so cute.


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## agent A

awww :wub:


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## thalassarche

Oh my goodness they are so adorable!

When I was young I desperately wanted a veiled, but it's a good thing my mother said no because we lived in the middle of nowhere in Montana, and even if I had access to the best information I still wouldn't have been able to get feeders reliably! Your little lizards are reminding me of that dream of twenty years ago!


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## patrickfraser

You and me both. I had always wanted one "with the googly eyes", too. I never was happy with an anole "chameleon" and they always died on me. I'm glad I can finally be living the dream!


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## patrickfraser

AndrewNisip said:


> Can we get a pic of A. Feeding time B. As many as you can in one hand
> 
> Thanks have a great night!
> 
> Ohh and a small order of fries too plz...


Your wish is my command. It's just not instantaneous. You have to...wait for it....wait for it. :lol: 

I'm glad you can't overdose on adorable.


----------



## aNisip

patrickfraser said:


> Your wish is my command. It's just not instantaneous. You have to...wait for it....wait for it. :lol:
> 
> I'm glad you can't overdose on adorable.


....ha and u said I couldn't overdose on adorab . . . . . ..........AWW MAH GERD! ^-^


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## thalassarche

Okay, a handful of baby veileds is, for me, on par with a basket of kittens when it comes to levels of sheer adorable.

Maybe even a bit higher, given the eyes.


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## sally

Not fair!! They are to cute I can't stop looking at them.


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## sally

They would make a cute bracelet, or necklace....


----------



## hierodula

its so funny how they wrap their tails around everything.  Who knew prehensile animals were so much fun?


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## agent A

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW :wub:


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## fleurdejoo

Those are so awesome!! So so so so cute!!!!!!!!


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## fleurdejoo

When will you start selling these guys?


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