# Tragedy



## cdsnuts (Jul 23, 2013)

My favorite female, the biggest coolest looking one that I have, suffered a tragic molt last night. I went out to find her on the bottom of the enclosure, crumpled and dead looking. It was apparent she got stuck in her old skin while molting and ended up on the bottom of the cage.

Her antennae were stuck in the old skin and she was twisted down and bent at her midsection because she get free. I clipped the skin apart and got her out, but I'm assuming she had been in that position all night because she cannot straighten herself out now.

If you look closely you can see that the arm that was still in the skin is completely underdeveloped (left arm)

Is there any hope for her?


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## cdsnuts (Jul 23, 2013)

I want to mention that humidity isn't an issue here. It's been in the 90's and over into the 100's with almost 90 percent humidity most days. I still mist the cage even with the weather outside.


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## Paradoxica (Jul 23, 2013)

Sorry, she looks like a goner to me. If she's able to hang by herself you might be able to keep her alive by hand feeding, but she doesn't look good. Did her enclosure have enough stuff for her to get a good grip on before molting?


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## cdsnuts (Jul 23, 2013)

Paradoxica said:


> Sorry, she looks like a goner to me. If she's able to hang by herself you might be able to keep her alive by hand feeding, but she doesn't look good. Did her enclosure have enough stuff for her to get a good grip on before molting?


She can hang by herself and move around a bit, but I don't see her being able to catch anything right now. I was hoping that she'd be able to straighten herself out now that her head is free of her forearm. I think she may have "set" that way though, seeing as she was in that position for the whole night.

And yes, I have them in a netted butterfly hatching enclosure so the entire thing is very suitable for hanging off of.


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## Drumkitchen (Jul 23, 2013)

The legs do not look too bad. Maybe leave her in peace one or two days and then try handfeeding her. She might not be able to use her raptorial arms, so you have to kind of force her to eat. Try first to hold a dead prey animal in front of her mouth, if you are lucky she starts eating, if not, she rejects and and tries to kick the food away. In that latter case you need to hold her thorax and give her some support, then try to put the prey again in front of her. As she will try to get rid of your grip, she bites anything she can reach and by doing this she might eat the prey. It's a quite rough procedure and not very natural, but if you can get her to the next moult, she might recover from her bad shape. As I said the legs do not seem to be damaged too much for holding her during a moult. Very important though is some peace time now for her, try not to handle her in the next 1-2 days.

Good luck and hopefully she recovers.

Cheers

Stefan


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## agent A (Jul 23, 2013)

I've seen worse survive

wait a day and then really hydrate her well

she may not eat for a few days

put her on paper toweling or something similar that's really grippable

spritz her a few times a day

after a few days start offering food again, u may need to use banana or honey to jump start her appetite again and then handfeed her insects


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## Ranitomeya (Jul 23, 2013)

It looks to me like the left raptorial did not successfully come out of its old exoskeleton and was bent.


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## sally (Jul 23, 2013)

Can she grip with the back legs at all? I am hand feeding a deadleaf atm. I will post a pic.The forelegs are all bent up. Sometimes she can hold the food in her mandibles. I am counting the days, and looking at her color to see when the molt is near. Then I will make sure she is in a good spot with the hind legs securely attatched to the surface. Make sure she drinks, and offer honey everyday. I always mush the fly or cut the head off the butterworm before I offer it to her. so far so good.....Good luck with your girl, and I will keep trying 

 with mine. Here is the pic....


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## cdsnuts (Jul 23, 2013)

All her legs are 100% operational. Her right raptorial arm works at about 50% but the left one is completely dead.

so I should mist her directly? A couple times a day?

I'll wait a few days to see if she takes some food by hand. I really hope I can get her to the next molt. I'm curious as to why this happened in the first place?

Any ideas?


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## cdsnuts (Jul 23, 2013)

Ranitomeya said:


> It looks to me like the left raptorial did not successfully come out of its old exoskeleton and was bent.


That's exactly what happened. Her antenna where also stuck in the left arm skin which is why she was bent that way. I thought she was dead when I saw here this morning.


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## sally (Jul 23, 2013)

cdsnuts said:


> All her legs are 100% operational. Her right raptorial arm works at about 50% but the left one is completely dead.
> 
> so I should mist her directly? A couple times a day?
> 
> ...


It happened to my deadleaf because she molted down to far in her container and the forelegs were compromised. I mist around the mantis, not directly on it. Offer water at the end of a dropper or spoon or QTip. My mantids drink a lot of water. I mist once or twice a day depending on the humidity in the container.


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## cdsnuts (Jul 23, 2013)

agent A said:


> I've seen worse survive
> 
> wait a day and then really hydrate her well
> 
> ...


She has no problem hanging on the side of the enclosure by herself...


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## sally (Jul 23, 2013)

cdsnuts said:


> That's exactly what happened. Her antenna where also stuck in the left arm skin which is why she was bent that way. I thought she was dead when I saw here this morning.


Yes, I had to pull some of the exoskeleton off of my deadleaf also.... hopefully your girl will make it to next molt


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## Sticky (Jul 23, 2013)

These things happen. Dont give up on her.


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## cdsnuts (Jul 23, 2013)

Sticky said:


> These things happen. Dont give up on her.


I want to know why they happen so I can prevent them happening again if at all possible. I was really bummed this morning to find her like that. So was my girlfriend and she doesn't really like them. She was bummed for me....

I have all of them in these butterfly enclosures shown below.

Should I add more to the cages? I mean when I started out I had sticks and things going across but they always just stayed on the sides......always.

I don't even have any substrate on the bottom.


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## cdsnuts (Jul 23, 2013)

Here she is left to her own devices....


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## cdsnuts (Jul 23, 2013)

Would it be possible for her to get to the next molt with just fruit and honey alone?


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## Danny. (Jul 23, 2013)

cdsnuts said:


> Would it be possible for her to get to the next molt with just fruit and honey alone?


No and no. She looks bad.


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## MandellaMandy123 (Jul 23, 2013)

I'm sorry that happened to her. Those are the exact cages I use and I rarely have mismolt problems. However, my favorite mantid had a bad molt last year and ended up looking like that. She was in a ten-gallon aquarium when it happened. She, sadly, did not survive. I hope yours does better. You can try holding insects up to her mouth with tweezers to see if she can eat.


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## cdsnuts (Jul 23, 2013)

WolfPuppy said:


> I'm sorry that happened to her. Those are the exact cages I use and I rarely have mismolt problems. However, my favorite mantid had a bad molt last year and ended up looking like that. She was in a ten-gallon aquarium when it happened. She, sadly, did not survive. I hope yours does better. You can try holding insects up to her mouth with tweezers to see if she can eat.


Where do you get the cages at? You notice I have them in all different sizes but would like them to be all the same....I can't find them locally anymore....


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## Danny. (Jul 23, 2013)

Livemonarch.com sells good ones. Time to freeze your girl. She looks like a goner.


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## cdsnuts (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks.

So the freezer is the way, huh?

I'm leaning more towards placing her in with a hungry male. Live by the jaw, die by the jaw. She's eaten her fair share of siblings.

I have a feeling I'm going to get flamed for this post.....


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## cdsnuts (Jul 23, 2013)

sally said:


> Can she grip with the back legs at all? I am hand feeding a deadleaf atm. I will post a pic.The forelegs are all bent up. Sometimes she can hold the food in her mandibles. I am counting the days, and looking at her color to see when the molt is near. Then I will make sure she is in a good spot with the hind legs securely attatched to the surface. Make sure she drinks, and offer honey everyday. I always mush the fly or cut the head off the butterworm before I offer it to her. so far so good.....Good luck with your girl, and I will keep trying
> 
> with mine. Here is the pic....


How can you tell they are going to molt?


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## MandellaMandy123 (Jul 23, 2013)

cdsnuts said:


> Where do you get the cages at? You notice I have them in all different sizes but would like them to be all the same....I can't find them locally anymore....


My mom usually gets them for me. I think she gets them off Amazon, or Insect Lore. I've also seen them at Costco around Christmastime.

Usually when they get stuck that much in the exoskeleton there isn't much you can do. Sorry about you loss


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## MandellaMandy123 (Jul 23, 2013)

cdsnuts said:


> How can you tell they are going to molt?


Well, there are a lot of different ways to tell. Depends on your species. They may stop eating, and their abdomen will probably look swollen. My nymphs tend to molt every couple of weeks, but it varies by instar.


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## cdsnuts (Jul 23, 2013)

So I'm looking for pictures and videos of molting mantids and it seems that their head doesn't molt? Am I correct or am I just not seeing it?


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## Danny. (Jul 23, 2013)

cdsnuts said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So the freezer is the way, huh?
> 
> ...


The freezer is one way or you can feed her to your mantis. I feed mine to the turtles, gone in one bite.


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## MandellaMandy123 (Jul 23, 2013)

cdsnuts said:


> So I'm looking for pictures and videos of molting mantids and it seems that their head doesn't molt? Am I correct or am I just not seeing it?


No, the head molts. Even the antennae molt. You can see them on the exoskeleton afterward.  Otherwise the head would never be able to grow. By the time your mantis was an adult, it would look like a pinhead! :stuart:


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## agent A (Jul 24, 2013)

I don't think u should freeze her yet

let things play out for a few days, but I would at least tilt the cage so she is hangin upside down


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## Sticky (Jul 24, 2013)

Danny. said:


> Livemonarch.com sells good ones. Time to freeze your girl. She looks like a goner.


Mantidplace sells excellant cages. Dont freeze her! She will be easy to care for.


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## cdsnuts (Jul 24, 2013)

She made it thru the night. She looks a little more mobile but she's still bent. I did put her in with the next biggest male I have, but she's bigger then him, so he stays away.

I'm not going to finish her off. I'm just going to let things play out.


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## cdsnuts (Jul 24, 2013)

WolfPuppy said:


> No, the head molts. Even the antennae molt. You can see them on the exoskeleton afterward.  Otherwise the head would never be able to grow. By the time your mantis was an adult, it would look like a pinhead! :stuart:


I keep watching videos but cant see how it's done. I want to know exactly where the skin splits first and the whole process from there....


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## lancaster1313 (Jul 24, 2013)

The skin should split on the dorsal pronotum. Then everything usually works itself out from there.


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## cdsnuts (Jul 24, 2013)

So I just successfully fed her a meal worm. I cut it in half and gave it to her guts first. She got her mandibles in that mess and didn't let go until it was gone. I'll feed her another one tomorrow if she takes it. We'll see if I can get her to the next molt.


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## MandellaMandy123 (Jul 24, 2013)

Good job! I hope she makes it.  Keep us posted.


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## sally (Jul 24, 2013)

Great, don't forget the water.


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## Nicolas (Jul 24, 2013)

Cool, she is making progress! love it when they are surviving


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## Jinx (Jul 25, 2013)

Aw, how sad! I hope she makes it.


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## nirotorin (Jul 25, 2013)

That's sad. Poor old girl.


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## agent A (Jul 25, 2013)

she's not broken just bent and she can learn to molt again


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## cdsnuts (Jul 25, 2013)

She's actually getting around the enclosure instead of just hanging there now. Progress.....time to feed her....


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## cdsnuts (Jul 25, 2013)

Two meal worms and some water.......I'm actually optimistic she'll make it to the next molt.


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## MandellaMandy123 (Jul 25, 2013)

I hope she makes it. It's a good sign that she's eating.


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## cdsnuts (Jul 25, 2013)

She's definitely in better shape from a couple days ago. She moves around, she keeps herself upright instead of just hanging upside down. And she is trying to use her not so disabled right hand raptorial which she gripped the wiggling end of the second meal worm with this afternoon.

I'm just wondering if she'll have enough strength to go through the molt? Tomorrow I'm going to feed her until she stops eating.


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## cdsnuts (Jul 25, 2013)

So do you guys think it's necessary to have anything else in the enclosure such as decorations, sticks etc? When I had stuff like that in there they never perched on it and it just got in the way. They are always on the sides of the cage.....


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## sally (Jul 25, 2013)

cdsnuts said:


> So do you guys think it's necessary to have anything else in the enclosure such as decorations, sticks etc? When I had stuff like that in there they never perched on it and it just got in the way. They are always on the sides of the cage.....


Go to the housing forum. Mantids like to hang upside down. I hot glue small sticks on the lid for better gripping. I also glue sticks on the sides of the enclosure. There are some great housing ideas on that forum


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## agent A (Jul 25, 2013)

i would get some mosquito netting since they really seem able to grip that stuff and let her hang upside down from it


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## cdsnuts (Jul 27, 2013)

Yesterday she ate two meal worms and a large half dead cricket. Her appetite is ravenous. She's also trying to move around alot more.


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## MandellaMandy123 (Jul 27, 2013)

How's she doing?

*edit* Oh, we posted at the same moment! Glad to see she's still doing well! It's a very good sign that she's moving around.


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## cdsnuts (Jul 27, 2013)

So I noticed that all of my critters have on them what look like two sets of little wings on their backs. Is this the last nymph stage before adult? When they molt next will there actually be wings there?


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## cdsnuts (Jul 30, 2013)

Some updated pics. Although still bent over, she is doing much better. Much move movement and her appetite is ridiculous.


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## Sticky (Jul 30, 2013)

Shes looking good. She looks sweet too! Im glad you kept her.


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## Jinx (Jul 31, 2013)

She looks like she's doing good. Thanks for the update, and I'm happy to see she's pulling through.


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## MandellaMandy123 (Aug 1, 2013)

Good job!!! She's still bent but she looks healthy!


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## sally (Aug 1, 2013)

I am pulling for her when she molts  . It will be soon for my D lobata, fingers crossed.....


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## Nicolas (Aug 2, 2013)

Looks like she's molting soon. You can tell by her wingbuds


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## cdsnuts (Aug 2, 2013)

Nicolas said:


> Looks like she's molting soon. You can tell by her wingbuds


How?


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## MandellaMandy123 (Aug 2, 2013)

They are very swollen. Mantids' wingbuds will swell when they are getting ready to molt.


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## gripen (Aug 2, 2013)

They are not swollen at all


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## lancaster1313 (Aug 3, 2013)

gripen said:


> They are not swollen at all


I can agree to that.

When they look like little pillows and lift away from the thorax, ecdysis will happen soon...


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## Krissim Klaw (Aug 3, 2013)

I really hope your little sweet heart can make it. This is why I always urge people to give a missmolt mantis some time before messing with them. It is amazing how much recovery they can do on their own. It seems their exoskeletons are not as set in place as they might first appear.


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## cdsnuts (Aug 3, 2013)

Wing buds are definitely not swollen. They are still flat on her back.


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## cdsnuts (Aug 12, 2013)

So....she molted. Unfortunately she still has that bend in her thorax, although not as pronounced. But more disappointing is that her left raptorial is still completely crippled. As a matter of fact I had to pull the whole skin off of it this morning as it was still stuck inside.

I'm going to give her a couple days to see how she sets and to see how much mobility she gets. I am having the thought of maybe keeping her around for mating purposes as she wont be able to do any damage to the mounting male.....lol. As horrible as that sounds, he may be able to have his way with her.

Thoughts?


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## cdsnuts (Aug 12, 2013)

Also a bummer because she is my only true green mantis that I'm raising right now....she was my favorite.


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## sally (Aug 12, 2013)

It is amazing that she made it to adult! If she is still eating and able to use the other legs maybe she will be able to mate and lay ooths... You can still feed her and offer water( if you still can) I am impressed she was able to get her wings and become an adult! You did a great job.


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## cdsnuts (Aug 13, 2013)

So she's acting strange since the molt. She keeps going down to the bottom of the enclosure, so i take her out to feed and water her, and she barely eats? She did drink alot but has only eaten a mealworm and a half since motling last night.


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## lancaster1313 (Aug 13, 2013)

A large mantis needs some time to harden their exoskeleton enough to eat something with a hard exoskeleton.

I give them more than a day to prevent them from possibly injuring their mouths. Handling can cause problems for the teneral mantis as well.

When a female Chinese mantis is ready, they can have quite an appetite.


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## cdsnuts (Aug 13, 2013)

likebugs said:


> A large mantis needs some time to harden their exoskeleton enough to eat something with a hard exoskeleton.
> 
> I give them more than a day to prevent them from possibly injuring their mouths. Handling can cause problems for the teneral mantis as well.
> 
> When a female Chinese mantis is ready, they can have quite an appetite.


I'm just wondering why she is going to the bottom and laying there......


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## MandellaMandy123 (Aug 13, 2013)

She's probably okay. If you put her on the bottom maybe she just doesn't have the strength to climb back up. She looks a lot better than I expected.  I'm surprised she was able to molt at all.


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## Nicolas (Aug 13, 2013)

Yeah my Giant asian female didn't want to have anything to do with other insects for like 5 days. But then she's become a bottomless pit eating anything basically


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## Sticky (Aug 13, 2013)

I give water to my big girls with small plastic baby spoons. Its not too hard to teach them to drink from it. Touch the water in the spoon to her mouth and be patient. They can learn fast. Try milk too.


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## cdsnuts (Aug 13, 2013)

WolfPuppy said:


> She's probably okay. If you put her on the bottom maybe she just doesn't have the strength to climb back up. She looks a lot better than I expected.  I'm surprised she was able to molt at all.


I never put her on the bottom. I put her on the side and she makes her way down there on her own. Usually that means they're ready to eat something. This is why it's puzzling me.


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## cdsnuts (Aug 13, 2013)

Nicolas said:


> Yeah my Giant asian female didn't want to have anything to do with other insects for like 5 days. But then she's become a bottomless pit eating anything basically


Good to know. I'm going to wait a few days before introducing food to the other newly molted adults.


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## cdsnuts (Aug 13, 2013)

Sticky said:


> I give water to my big girls with small plastic baby spoons. Its not too hard to teach them to drink from it. Touch the water in the spoon to her mouth and be patient. They can learn fast. Try milk too.


I give mine water out of a dropper. Very, very easy to do.


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## Keoke (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm glad to see so many people, who are not willing to give up on their mantis's so quickly, no matter how bad it looks. I just had a female orchid that was on her last molt and I was so excited. She was hanging good, lots of humidity, and I watched the whole thing. Then i noticed her head was still stuck and her forearms were twisted, and stuck. So I panicked and grabbed her and got her out and gently untwisted her forearms, and sat with her in my hand for about 4 hours before setting her on some coconut fibers for her to grip to and to cushion her body. her wings were completely wrinkle, twisted and awful. I was told to put her out of her misery and stick her in the freezer, but I didn't have the heart to do it. She laid there for about 4 days as if she was paralyzed. I sprayed her 4 to 5 times a day, and gave her honey on the 3rd day, and fed her on the 5th day by hand, she ate great, had barely any control in her forearms, but she is able to hang upside down on the screen top if i place her there, but not move around. I doubt she'll be able to breed, or get back to normal, but she's alive and eating and cleans herself, so who knows what will happen.

So...... NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER!!! hahaha.


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## Nicolas (Aug 18, 2013)

Yea! never give up. lol


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## Sticky (Aug 18, 2013)

Keoke, do you have any pics of your orchid?


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