# NOw the fun begins



## jacksun (Apr 10, 2009)

Well, after a bunch of research and digging I finally found someone in Canada to buy Mantids from (all garden centers and pet stores are sold out in Calgary, some kind of School competition, Mantids are worth 100 points??). I have purchased 3 Asian Giant Mantid Ooths, and they will arrive next week. I am looking forward to this (I've had a Mantis as a pet when I was young) as I have never bred mantids before.

Now that all my ant queens are tending their first eggs I have a gap of time to set up and prepare my Mantid breeding (it was Mantids or honeybees - Mantids are way cooler).

After a bunch of googling I have uncovered many answers, Frost's Insect Life has halped, but I need some clarification from those with more expertise than me.

1) Nymphs can be housed together until L3 or so, correct?

2) Any recommendations on housing equipment for larger numbers of L3+ mantids? I am thinking small aquariums (5 gallon) with dividers....any other suggestions?

3) Any estimates on daily fruit fly consumption for L1/L2?

4) Any estimates on daily micro cricket/Fruit fly consumption for L3/L4?

5) Question from my wife - Do they eat small dogs? We have a Yorkie and she's worried  )

6) Recommendations on what stage your mantids must be at before you will ship/deliver them to buyers.

Great forum, love all the info. Looking forward to hanging out and contributing.

Cheers,

Wayne


----------



## Emile.Wilson (Apr 10, 2009)

Jacksun said:


> Well, after a bunch of research and digging I finally found someone in Canada to buy Mantids from (all garden centers and pet stores are sold out in Calgary, some kind of School competition, Mantids are worth 100 points??). I have purchased 3 Asian Giant Mantid Ooths, and they will arrive next week. I am looking forward to this (I've had a Mantis as a pet when I was young) as I have never bred mantids before.Now that all my ant queens are tending their first eggs I have a gap of time to set up and prepare my Mantid breeding (it was Mantids or honeybees - Mantids are way cooler).
> 
> After a bunch of googling I have uncovered many answers, Frost's Insect Life has halped, but I need some clarification from those with more expertise than me.
> 
> ...


I know how hard it is, i have spent hours googling to find somewhere i can buy mantids in canada.  i ended up buying oothecae.

1. yes

2. try 32 ounce cups from mantisplace.com

3.

4.

5. no but they have been know to eat snakes mice and smaller lizards

6. L2?

Someone help me out with answering these


----------



## hibiscusmile (Apr 10, 2009)

ok,

3. a lot especially if u have 3 fertile asian ooths, u will never be able to take care of them all, they dont die off easily like the chinese. Maybe sell an ooth to another school needing them, or indivisually for classrooms.

4. see #3

5 if they are hungry and a lot of them get out :lol: he won't stand a chance!


----------



## jacksun (Apr 10, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> ok, 3. a lot especially if u have 3 fertile asian ooths, u will never be able to take care of them all, they dont die off easily like the chinese. Maybe sell an ooth to another school needing them, or indivisually for classrooms.
> 
> 4. see #3
> 
> 5 if they are hungry and a lot of them get out :lol: he won't stand a chance!


Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it.

Ok, lots of babies.....can the hatching be delayed by refrigeration? If so for how long?

Schools were definitely a target for excess inventory, but I think we are likely looking to September for that population cull. Garden centers here in Calgary are out of stock so maybe some summer culling to them, assume the ooth hatches in a reasonable period of time.

Might be lots of empty large beer cups in my future (for the mantid homes I mean  )

Wayne


----------



## PhilinYuma (Apr 10, 2009)

Jacksun said:


> Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it.Ok, lots of babies.....can the hatching be delayed by refrigeration? If so for how long?
> 
> Schools were definitely a target for excess inventory, but I think we are likely looking to September for that population cull. Garden centers here in Calgary are out of stock so maybe some summer culling to them, assume the ooth hatches in a reasonable period of time.
> 
> ...


Wow! That really is a challenge! A few thoughts to supplement the wise advice above.

Don't refrigerate your ooths.

Are you allowed to release giant Asians into the wild (i.e. gardens) in Canada?

By Semptember, your house will be full of fully grown mantids (and the ghost of a formerly yapping Yorky)! Find one of those "progreesive" schools that are open in the summer!

Buy three 1' (at least) butterfly cubes, one for each ooth. Put in a lot of excelsior or raffia for the nymphs and flies to climb on. Use plenty of moisture (spraying with distilled water)

Iv'e used a good 4 pots of mels/week/ooth, which means starting four more before the old cultures die out. Buy those 32 oz pots with cloth lids NOW! You should always be able to see live ff's hopping around the enclosure (a lot will die), so stock accordingly. Read the sticky on ff cultures and use the search engine.

By third instar, they'll be taking D. hydei, which have a longer life cycle, so same thing or more, with them.

Ten adults should give you an adequate sex distribution for a breeding colony. When canibalism becomes a pressing issue, most people set them out one to a pot. I usually put in three per pot, That means that if all the little squirts in one pot die, I can restock it from the others. I currently do this, so I know that it works.

Consider housflies as a supplement or alternative to crix, though you'll vertainly need the latter (or bees) as the mantids appoach full size. Try a site like SpiderPharm, though somewhere in Canada might be better..

I admire you for trying, but this sounds like a next-to-impossible project. Have you told your wife, yet, that you'll have to take seperate vacations, so that there will always be someone home to care for the mantids? :lol: 

Still, you'll have fun, and probably enough will survive for a new generation. PLEASE keep us updated!


----------



## jacksun (Apr 10, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Wow! That really is a challenge! A few thoughts to supplement the wise advice above.Don't refrigerate your ooths.
> 
> Are you allowed to release giant Asians into the wild (i.e. gardens) in Canada?
> 
> ...


PhilinYuma, thanks for the feedback. I have 3 young adult children at home (19 - 24), attending University on my tab, Mantid care will not be an issue for vacations - and it should prove interesting...we go to Rome and Venice the last week of May...so they are about to learn fast.

As far as I know Asian Giants can be released here, our garden centers sell them.

Can you more accurately define a "pot" when it comes to the FF's and distributing older Nymphs? I'm just coming up to speed on the FF breeding thing, having trouble finding cultures here in Calgary. My ants eat ant jelly which I make and refrigerate, so this is a bit more complex.

My wife tolerates my ants, I nurse post nup queens all winter, then baby them as they tend their first eggs until I have new colonies. I am also building some new ant farm containers that will work better than the old wood/glass things. You can buy tons of this stuff in Europe (like Mantids) but can't get anything but Uncle Milton's ant farms here in Canada. Ants aren't in big demand here, but primary school science teachers love it when I drop off a small colony for their kids, so I keep doing it  

Thanks Again,

Wayne


----------



## Emile.Wilson (Apr 10, 2009)

Jacksun said:


> PhilinYuma, thanks for the feedback. I have 3 young adult children at home (19 - 24), attending University on my tab, Mantid care will not be an issue for vacations - and it should prove interesting...we go to Rome and Venice the last week of May...so they are about to learn fast.As far as I know Asian Giants can be released here, our garden centers sell them.
> 
> Can you more accurately define a "pot" when it comes to the FF's and distributing older Nymphs? I'm just coming up to speed on the FF breeding thing, having trouble finding cultures here in Calgary. My ants eat ant jelly which I make and refrigerate, so this is a bit more complex.
> 
> ...


i have a small colony that is barely starting i kinda gave up on them


----------



## jacksun (Apr 10, 2009)

Emile said:


> i have a small colony that is barely starting i kinda gave up on them


Emile,

Do you have a queen? Is it a new colony or a transplant?

Wayne


----------



## PhilinYuma (Apr 10, 2009)

Can you more accurately define a "pot" when it comes to the FF's and distributing older Nymphs? I'm just coming up to speed on the FF breeding thing, having trouble finding cultures here in Calgary. My ants eat ant jelly which I make and refrigerate, so this is a bit more complex.

Yes, Wayne, a "pot" is as standard in this hobby as one of those old Hamburg Dragon Cages. Usually called simply a "Hamburg", it was always a 30' (10M) cube made of 2" (5cm) iron rods placed 1' (3M) apart. The front had a sliding door covered in eisenglass (mica, not that newfangled plastic!) secured with a padlock, and there was a small swing door in the back (2' [6.6cm] by about 5'6" [&lt;2M] ) for the introduction of damsels and similarly secured.

The "pot" in the mantis hobby is of a similarly standard construction and made of clear plastic. It has a 32 oz (1L) capacity, stands 5 3/4" (14.5 cm) high, with a base diameter of 3 1/4" (8.2cm) and a flanged top with an O.D of 4 1/2" (11.5cm). This kind of "deli cup" can often be bought for 4/$1 in US stores, but they have inferior, unperforated lids. Hibiscusmile at Mantisplace can sometimes be persuaded to part with a few with preforated lids either covered with metal mesh or cloth (you'll need the latter for fruit flies). The equivalent of the old "damsel door," and serving the same purpose, is a round or square !' (2'5cm) hole cut it the plastic side a little way from the bottom. This is filled with a plastic sponge. For fruit flies, such a feeding port is unnecessary, but many experience folks, like Katnapper, bore a hole in the top, sealed with a bung, to facilitate harvesting the flies into an inverted transparent tube.

Depending on the density of your fruit flies in any given pot, you will need to feed at least half a pot to each butterfly cube per day.

Most fruit fly producers that I know of tend to live in the southern part of the U.S, but unless the weather is extremely hot or cold, ordering them by mail to Calgary shouldn't be a major problem.

It sounds as though you are off to a good start. Put those kids to work! (Hear that Sunny, Mija?).


----------



## jacksun (Apr 10, 2009)

Philinjuma, thanks for the great description. I found a place in Canada where I can order the fruit fly cultures, medium, and 1 litre cups with vented lids. The cups are $6.40 CDN for 10 which is OK for price, but I guess I'm paying to get them rather than build them. The site is http://www.canadianfeeders.com for those interested.

I'm not sure how good their medium is, but if it doesn't work it sounds like the apple sauce, MASA, vinegar medium from the fruit fly rearing thread on this forum works well.

The butterfly cages sound like a great idea, and makes lots of sense from a population perspective.

Thanks for all your help!!!

Wayne


----------



## Emile.Wilson (Apr 11, 2009)

Jacksun said:


> Philinjuma, thanks for the great description. I found a place in Canada where I can order the fruit fly cultures, medium, and 1 litre cups with vented lids. The cups are $6.40 CDN for 10 which is OK for price, but I guess I'm paying to get them rather than build them. The site is http://www.canadianfeeders.com for those interested.I'm not sure how good their medium is, but if it doesn't work it sounds like the apple sauce, MASA, vinegar medium from the fruit fly rearing thread on this forum works well.
> 
> The butterfly cages sound like a great idea, and makes lots of sense from a population perspective.
> 
> ...


I bought from canadianfeeders also  i use these canadian websites also.

http://randallsreptiles.com for feeders

http://randallsreptiles.com for mantids and other inverts


----------



## jacksun (Apr 11, 2009)

Emile said:


> I bought from canadianfeeders also  i use these canadian websites also.http://randallsreptiles.com for feeders
> 
> http://randallsreptiles.com for mantids and other inverts


Thanks Eile, I will check out those other sites. Let e know if you have questions about your ants....do you have a queen? Newly established queen or transplant from the wild?

Wayne


----------



## Emile.Wilson (Apr 11, 2009)

Jacksun said:


> Thanks Eile, I will check out those other sites. Let e know if you have questions about your ants....do you have a queen? Newly established queen or transplant from the wild?Wayne


Found her in the wild, but she is not doing to well, moving slowly and only a couple of ants hatched even though she has about 30 eggs. Forgot 1 other website http://canadiansilkworms.com. Also you might want to buy 32 oz cups from mantisplace, its a better price.

-Emile


----------



## PhilinYuma (Apr 11, 2009)

Well Wayne, it looks as though you're off to a good start. Just one or two more word before I go off to make some cultures of my own.

I wouldn't think of telling you how to make cultures, everyone has his/her sure fire method. In addition to the threads that you've mentioned, though, you might want to check out Orin's "sticky" at the head of the "Food and Feeding" section and a recent note by Christian on the subject. An alternative to making up your own food is to buy a commercial mix, like those produced by Silkworm Farms and Carolina Biological Supply Co. They have the advantage of having mold retardants and giving good quality control.

Two common errors reported numerous times on this forum, are intoducing too few flies to a new culture (50 or so minimum, but who's counting?) and adding far too much yeast. The directions are right! Just add a few grains on the surface to start loci of fermentation for bacteria to colonize.

When you order your flies, make up the culture media. It will take a while for the fermentation process to get under way (though you'll find various methods of speeding it up), and the flies will be ready to lay eggs before they arrive.

It's also a good idea to keep careful notes about the contents of each pot and and the date it's made and flies introduced. Finally, it's a good idea to try several recipes at once when starting out so that you can get a better idea of what works best for you.

And off I go. I've got this great new recipe where you grind up dog food and.....


----------



## Emile.Wilson (Apr 11, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Well Wayne, it looks as though you're off to a good start. Just one or two more word before I go off to make some cultures of my own.I wouldn't think of telling you how to make cultures, everyone has his/her sure fire method. In addition to the threads that you've mentioned, though, you might want to check out Orin's "sticky" at the head of the "Food and Feeding" section and a recent note by Christian on the subject. An alternative to making up your own food is to buy a commercial mix, like those produced by Silkworm Farms and Carolina Biological Supply Co. They have the advantage of having mold retardants and giving good quality control.
> 
> Two common errors reported numerous times on this forum, are intoducing too few flies to a new culture (50 or so minimum, but who's counting?) and adding far too much yeast. The directions are right! Just add a few grains on the surface to start loci of fermentation for bacteria to colonize.
> 
> ...


dog food and what!!! i need to know! :angry:


----------



## hibiscusmile (Apr 11, 2009)

I must of missed it in the thread, whats the dog food for?


----------



## Rick (Apr 11, 2009)

Jacksun said:


> Well, after a bunch of research and digging I finally found someone in Canada to buy Mantids from (all garden centers and pet stores are sold out in Calgary, some kind of School competition, Mantids are worth 100 points??). I have purchased 3 Asian Giant Mantid Ooths, and they will arrive next week. I am looking forward to this (I've had a Mantis as a pet when I was young) as I have never bred mantids before.Now that all my ant queens are tending their first eggs I have a gap of time to set up and prepare my Mantid breeding (it was Mantids or honeybees - Mantids are way cooler).
> 
> After a bunch of googling I have uncovered many answers, Frost's Insect Life has halped, but I need some clarification from those with more expertise than me.
> 
> ...


1. Yes. Since you went overboard and got THREE ooths you have no choice. You are not going to be able to seperate 1000 nymphs. I would hatch each ooth in its own large enclosure/net cage and leave them all in there until you have less than twenty from each ooth. Then seperate those left into their own 32 oz deli cups. And you can also try to sell them off at any point.

2. I use 2 1/2 gallon mini aquariums that can be divided into three seperate parts to house three mantids.

3.They will eat at least 10 fruit flies each daily. You will need several 32 oz deli cultures going at one time.

4.At L3/4 with this species you will need crickets and not micro crickets. These are large mantids and they grow fast. I suggest ordering 1000 crickets from an online vendor. I would go less than half an inch but way larger than pinhead. Crickets grow fast too.

5. Uh no.

6.You can send them out at L1 but many wait until they have molted once. In your case you will have tons to sell but be advised I believe the hobby is a bit saturated with the giant asian mantis.


----------



## jacksun (Apr 11, 2009)

hibiscusmile said:


> I must of missed it in the thread, whats the dog food for?


Hibiscusmile, the dog food has something to do with a culture for blue bottle fly rearing.

Wayne


----------



## jacksun (Apr 11, 2009)

Rick said:


> 1. Yes. Since you went overboard and got THREE ooths you have no choice. You are not going to be able to seperate 1000 nymphs. I would hatch each ooth in its own large enclosure/net cage and leave them all in there until you have less than twenty from each ooth. Then seperate those left into their own 32 oz deli cups. And you can also try to sell them off at any point. 2. I use 2 1/2 gallon mini aquariums that can be divided into three seperate parts to house three mantids.
> 
> 3.They will eat at least 10 fruit flies each daily. You will need several 32 oz deli cultures going at one time.
> 
> ...


Hi Rick, thanks for the reply. I kind of figured it was a lot with 3 ooths but up here in Canada Mantids are more difficult to find, and ooths even worse. In Calgary they are very difficult to get, and with winter temps somtimes going to the -45 degree celcius range (I think that's -47 F) ooths don't overwinter outside well. BC is of courses a different story. The place I found to buy ooths sells them in 3's, I would have preferred one.

I ordered Butterfly cages yesterday for initial housing, and I also have fruit fly cultures inbound. Crickets are next on my list, I was going to order some micro to feed them at L2, and 1/4" for L3 +.

Regards,

Wayne


----------



## jacksun (Apr 11, 2009)

Emile said:


> Found her in the wild, but she is not doing to well, moving slowly and only a couple of ants hatched even though she has about 30 eggs. Forgot 1 other website http://canadiansilkworms.com. Also you might want to buy 32 oz cups from mantisplace, its a better price.-Emile


Hi Emile, there are several things you need to control with ants:

1) moisture - ants can live months without food, but they MUST have water. The soil or sand they are in needs to be slightly damp at least in one area. Not enough moisture and they die, too much and you get mold growing which kills them. Add a few drops of water, let it soak in, then add a few more. Also get a few drops on the side of the container so they have direct access to the water, if they go to it very quickly you know they are too dry.

2) If you have moisture in the farm, it should not fog the sides of the container, this will cause mold. If this is happening, you do not have enough air circulation to allow the water to evaporate.

3) no direct sunlight - this will assist in mold growth, and bake your ants.

4) Feeding - much of this depends on species (do you know your species? Most will eat insects (mosquitoes, fruit flies, small beetles) but this isn't a necessity. All will eat ant jelly. It is cheap and easy to make:

What you need:

1 egg

62ml of honey

1 multivitamin/mineral capsule/tab crushed fine

5gm of Knotts plain gelatin

250ml water

Dissolve gelatin in 250ml of boiling water - let it cool but not set up

mix in egg, honey, and crushed vitamin until well blended

place in fridge to set

Once set feed to your ants - they should only need a tiny amount, like a single drop sized bit. If the food starts to mold in their farm remove it and add new.

Store this in the fridge, usually good for 1-2 weeks, or until it starts to mold depending on moisture.

5) Temp - too hot they hide or bake and do nothing, too cold and they hibernate. Room temp out of direct sunlight is usually perfect.

6) keep at least 1 side of the farm blacked out with paper/cardboard - ants do not like light in their homes. I keep both sides covered, that way they don't only unnel on one side of the farm.

If you have them in one of the fandangled gel ant farms, get them out of there. These are for short term use, for such a small starter colony an Uncle Miltons ant far works fine.

What species do you have?

Wayne


----------



## jacksun (Apr 11, 2009)

One other question, what is the average time period between molts? I'm thinking we are talking a week or two in the early stages, a bit longer as they mature....

Thanks,

Wayne


----------

