# substrate question



## AmandaLynn (Sep 14, 2009)

Would just gravel alone work as a substrate if you're not using live plants?


----------



## sbugir (Sep 14, 2009)

I don't see why not, it's very heat retainable and I'm sure could release a bit of humidity.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Sep 15, 2009)

You might want to consider putting a layer of peat moss under the gravel. This will retain more moisture and higher humidity and eliminate the possibility of stagnant water accumulating under the gravel, though most will evaporate. You don't plan on keeping tiny nymphs in this enclosure, do you? If water pools in the gravel interstices, the silly little things might drown themselves.


----------



## jameslongo (Sep 15, 2009)

Moistened paper towels should work a treat. These retain moisture effectively &amp; prevent small nymphs from drowning (also applicable to Drosophila). Or are you going for something a little more ornamental? Although I've never tried it, perhaps someone here can throw in their two cents worth about sphagnum moss.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Sep 15, 2009)

jameslongo said:


> Moistened paper towels should work a treat. These retain moisture effectively &amp; prevent small nymphs from drowning (also applicable to Drosophila). Or are you going for something a little more ornamental? Although I've never tried it, perhaps someone here can throw in their two cents worth about sphagnum moss.


Yes, James, I seem to remember that on one occasion, your beloved had to rescue some of yr nymphs from a watery grave! Nothing like learning from experience!

Sphagnum moss, and in the U.S., beaked moss, are readily available in pet stores and quite inexpensive. So far as I know, the sphagnum moss is harvested from the top of peat bogs and dried out. The dried form is clean and ordorless and absorbs and retains water extremely well. I even use it in pots containing nymphs that notoriously mismolt in conditions of low humidity (thanks, Ismart!). It can last for well over a month before needing to be replaced. However, it can put small nymphs at risk and act as a refuge for crix and roaches, so it is a good idea to cover it with something like gravel, or in a pot, paper towels.


----------



## AmandaLynn (Sep 15, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> You might want to consider putting a layer of peat moss under the gravel. This will retain more moisture and higher humidity and eliminate the possibility of stagnant water accumulating under the gravel, though most will evaporate. You don't plan on keeping tiny nymphs in this enclosure, do you? If water pools in the gravel interstices, the silly little things might drown themselves.


No it would be for an adult _Ph. paradoxa_. I have a couple of different glass bowls that I like the look of but, the bases of them are not an ideal shape. So I wanted to raise the base up so the crickets and other feeders can't hide so well, using gravel with paper towel or sphagnum moss on top and I'm wondering if the paper or moss is really necessary.

Here is a photo of one of the containers,







I don't know much about gravel other than it is used for drainage and fish tanks. I'm thinking though that with enough gravel I could just create a resevoir of water at the base and keep the upper portion somewhat dry, but I'm not sure if it would release enough humidity or to much though.


----------



## PhilinYuma (Sep 15, 2009)

As a matter of interest, what is the distance from the top of the gravel to the top of the container? My concern, as I said before, is that stagnant water would accumulate at the bottom of the gravel as I have seen it do in emptied fish tanks. Are you doing this for aesthetic reasons? I do not yet have my merit badge for mantis aesthetics, but if this is just for the benefit of the mantis, then I'd say that paper towelling is cleaner and will hold water in a more controlled way than gravel. I suspect, though, that you will go for the gravel, anyway!  If that is the case, go for it, but look at the glass from underneath from time to time to check for pooling water, and wash out the gravel periodically.


----------



## Rick (Sep 15, 2009)

I gues it would work but not what I would use. I prefer moss.


----------



## ABbuggin (Sep 15, 2009)

Probably the two best are the moss and a folded paper towel. Both hold moisture well, but release it slowly so it never becomes stagnant. I don't really care for the moss because it allows feeders to hide in it. It is a good thing to use for L1-L2 nymphs though (lots of climbing surfaces).


----------



## f.wattiez (Sep 15, 2009)

Hello!

Phyllocrania paradoxa lives in dry environment I think. A light vaporization per week should be enough! What think about it? It is not like Hymenopus coronatus!

In France, we often use vermiculite as substrate!





On the other hand, this species evolved with difficulty on the paroies out of glass!

Bests regards, François!


----------



## PhilinYuma (Sep 15, 2009)

f.wattiez said:


> Hello! Phyllocrania paradoxa lives in dry environment I think. A light vaporization per week should be enough! What think about it? It is not like Hymenopus coronatus!In France, we often use vermiculite as substrate!
> 
> On the other hand, this species evolved with difficulty on the paroies out of glass!
> 
> Bests regards, François!


Ghosts, _P. paradoxa_ come from Madagascar and although there is a dry season there from spring until fall, I don't think that the humidity falls below 70%RH even inland and in the low 80% on the coast.

I'm not sure what your last sentence means. Are you saying that this mantis has difficulty in climbing glass walls?


----------



## f.wattiez (Sep 16, 2009)

PhilinYuma said:


> Ghosts, _P. paradoxa_ come from Madagascar and although there is a dry season there from spring until fall, I don't think that the humidity falls below 70%RH even inland and in the low 80% on the coast.I'm not sure what your last sentence means. Are you saying that this mantis has difficulty in climbing glass walls?


Hello,

In France, we raise this species in dry environment. No the concern met. Only the coupling is not easy.

And yes, this mantis has difficulty in climbing glass walls, i think.

It is not a general information, but just my observations

Bests regards, François!


----------



## AmandaLynn (Sep 16, 2009)

I had always assumed that they were a tropical species. But apparently the south west regions of Madagascar are hot and dry. I don't know what areas P. paradoxas are found there, if they are found in the south west then I guess it makes sense to raise them in dry conditions. I've been keeping the humidity pretty high in their enclosures so far and haven't had any problems with it yet though, so maybe they are just an adaptable species that can live in diverse climates.... I don't really know.

I like the vermiculite! It looks a lot nicer than paper towels for sure and retains moisture much better than gravel! I think I'm going to have to try it. Thanks for the suggestion, Francois! As for the glass container, they pretty much hang out on the lid of whatever enclosure they are in, and I've added some sticks for her to climb on as well.


----------



## sbugir (Sep 16, 2009)

I know above I said gravel might be a good heat retainable substrate...But definitely go with vermiculite over gravel. It is great stuff, it holds heat very well and releases "bursts" of moisture over a very slow time. If you need to know where to buy it try lowes or home depot...or perhaps even your local garden store. It's pretty cheap. Usually in pets mart or petco they sell "jungle" bedding, and it is usually cocoanut fiber with vermiculite. It works very well, the only downside is when you spray it, it somewhat smells like sweat. The added bonus with the jungle bedding is that the fiber apparently is very mold resistant (so far holds true for me).


----------



## PhilinYuma (Sep 16, 2009)

AmandaLynn said:


> I had always assumed that they were a tropical species. But apparently the south west regions of Madagascar are hot and dry. I don't know what areas P. paradoxas are found there, if they are found in the south west then I guess it makes sense to raise them in dry conditions. I've been keeping the humidity pretty high in their enclosures so far and haven't had any problems with it yet though, so maybe they are just an adaptable species that can live in diverse climates.... I don't really know.I like the vermiculite! It looks a lot nicer than paper towels for sure and retains moisture much better than gravel! I think I'm going to have to try it. Thanks for the suggestion, Francois! As for the glass container, they pretty much hang out on the lid of whatever enclosure they are in, and I've added some sticks for her to climb on as well.


Yes this is always the problem when a relatively small area has different climates. The humidities that I gave, somewhere above, were for the capital, Antanarivo in the center of the island and a seaport on the east coast. I cannot imagine the benefit of a desert species looking like a leaf, though, and even in Toliara, in the southwest (they are simply villages down there, you don't wanna go!) though the humidity is about 30%RH at noon at this time of year, it is about 80% during the humid, sweaty nights. I have always kept the humidity up for this species, though without doing anything more than regular mistings and have had no problems.


----------



## sbugir (Sep 16, 2009)

I'd love to get some ghosts one day. Good species no?


----------



## bassist (Sep 18, 2009)

lemmiwinks said:


> I'd love to get some ghosts one day. Good species no?


There is no 'good or bad' species but _Phyllocrania _are definitely up there in the favorites category for many people. On the whole climate of where they come from thing it's a good idea to know exactly where the stocks came from but I don't think that's possible anymore with this species and some others since people import wild collected oothecae and hatch them out.


----------



## AmandaLynn (Sep 18, 2009)

lemmiwinks said:


> I'd love to get some ghosts one day. Good species no?


You should, they are pretty cool little creatures.  I really enjoy them.


----------



## ABbuggin (Sep 18, 2009)

lemmiwinks said:


> I'd love to get some ghosts one day. Good species no?


You should. I have 7 and each is a different color, not to mention they are acrobatic.


----------

