Advice Please

[ashleenicole]

I'm looking for advice regarding my adult female Prohierodula picta. She has been with me over a year, and she matured at the end of May. She has never laid an ooth for me, so I've assumed for a while that she is obviously eggbound. Recently she has started to really decline. She can no longer climb or cling to her lid, and all she does at this point is sit at the bottom of her enclosure. She won't take food at this point, but still drinks. The thing that concerns me the most is that she now has ooth material stuck to her abdomen. As soon as I noticed it I tried to gently remove it with a damp q-tip, but it won't budge. I guess what I'm asking is if I should let her continue to live like this, or if it's time to help her out by putting her in the freezer. I want her to pass naturally, but I feel like leaving her like this for much longer would be cruel. I suppose I already know the answer, but I'm just looking for reassurance.  

 

[Ebichua]

Just let her pass naturally. 

Think about it this way: Euthanasia is man-made. There are very few animals in this world that actually commit suicide due to pain, either emotionally or physically. Often times, these are animals with high intelligence (marine mammals, humans). I don't believe insects are capable of the same kind of logic. Their brain is wired to survive, survive, survive, as most animals are, no matter how grim the situation. 

With that being said, your mantis, despite being in very poor conditions, is probably still trying to live. It would explain why she is still taking in water, because that might be all she can ingest now. Let her pass on her own will, until her body can no longer keep her alive. It may be uncomfortable, but at least you are respecting her will to live to the end, rather than deciding yourself on when her life should end. 

Euthanasia should always be the very last resort and if the receiver is aware of what's happening and what is going to happen. In most cases, I believe people euthanize their pets more for their own comfort than their pet's, using pain and suffering as justification for their actions. People often forget the animal's will to live is stronger than we give them credit for. 

 

[CosbyArt]

@ashleenicole For me if they are fighting to live on and are not showing any obvious signs of distress I let them be, and pass naturally. Although if she is simply sitting on the substrate unable to eat then it is apparent that she is under duress from her failing health.

If she matured at the end of May, nearly 7 months ago, she has lived a long life (egg-bound or not) for a mantid and is a elder female, and will only decline in health.

As such there is no need for her to suffer the final stages, either starving to death or succumbing to infection and related issues from sitting on the substrate (similar to bed sores in mistreated/neglected humans). Either of which would be much worse than simply passing in her sleep from freezing, and I would suggest freezing over starving any day (for myself included if it came to that).

Without opening up a whole can of worms/discussion on euthanasia, rather it is right or wrong compared to nature has no bearing on the matter, as it is a beloved pet and not somewhere on it's own in nature (likely frozen to death months ago from winter or found her end as prey long before that). There is no need for suffering, and will only shorten her lifespan a few days in this instance to perhaps a week at most.

With either instance though the quote "quality of life versus quantity" is very fitting and worth applying in this case as well.

Pain is one thing scientists have not been able to prove or deny in many wildlife species, especially when it comes to insects and of course mantids (see the discussion and reference links). I've seen conditions in mantids that would kill a human or at the very least cause extreme uncontrollable pain, where the mantid seemed oblivious to it and goes on about it's task (such as a decapitated mating male for instance that can live on for several days without a head). Then in other instances I've seen a mantid react in a manner that could have only been sheer pain as a nerves or related condition could not replicate the complicated events and repetitively as witnessed (for example my first mantis Susanna that died in my hand naturally, near the end throwing her forearms around her head repetitively and very quickly like a human with a traumatic injury).

 

[Serle]

@ashleenicole For me if they are fighting to live on and are not showing any obvious signs of distress I let them be, and pass naturally. Although if she is simply sitting on the substrate unable to eat then it is apparent that she is under duress from her failing health.

If she matured at the end of May, nearly 7 months ago, she has lived a long life (egg-bound or not) for a mantid and is a elder female, and will only decline in health.

As such there is no need for her to suffer the final stages, either starving to death or succumbing to infection and related issues from sitting on the substrate (similar to bed sores in mistreated/neglected humans). Either of which would be much worse than simply passing in her sleep from freezing, and I would suggest freezing over starving any day (for myself included if it came to that).

Without opening up a whole can of worms/discussion on euthanasia, rather it is right or wrong compared to nature has no bearing on the matter, as it is a beloved pet and not somewhere on it's own in nature (likely frozen to death months ago from winter or found her end as prey long before that). There is no need for suffering, and will only shorten her lifespan a few days in this instance to perhaps a week at most.

With either instance though the quote "quality of life versus quantity" is very fitting and worth applying in this case as well.

Pain is one thing scientists have not been able to prove or deny in many wildlife species, especially when it comes to insects and of course mantids (see the discussion and reference links). I've seen conditions in mantids that would kill a human or at the very least cause extreme uncontrollable pain, where the mantid seemed oblivious to it and goes on about it's task (such as a decapitated mating male for instance that can live on for several days without a head). Then in other instances I've seen a mantid react in a manner that could have only been sheer pain as a nerves or related condition could not replicate the complicated events and repetitively as witnessed (for example my first mantis Susanna that died in my hand naturally, near the end throwing her forearms around her head repetitively and very quickly like a human with a traumatic injury).

You are very correct in your premise this is a personal choice and moot in discussion . We should do what we believe and not try to justify our opinion or change others .  Happy C-Mas ... Serle

 

[CosbyArt]

You are very correct in your premise this is a personal choice and moot in discussion . We should do what we believe and not try to justify our opinion or change others .  Happy C-Mas ... Serle

Glad to see it came across as such, and was the intended point.

Happy Christmas to you and your family as well.

 

[crabbypatty]

@ashleenicole I had the same problem with my mantis, I was told to keep her humid and well watered, unfortunately her condition got worse and I had to put her down. I've had a mantis with poop stuck to his butt and I've held a little cap with warm water and soaked the tip of the abdomen for a little bit and I increased the humidity as well, and the hardened poop came off, that might help with the ooth material, just a suggestion. It sounds like your mantis has lived a long time, it's up to you to do what is best for your pet, it's hard to make that choice, I'm sorry