Culturing? dubia and red runner roaches maybe crickets

[Starving Always]

i hope to culture them. i really just dont want them to die, and just eat while they're alive before being devoured. but if they have babies, that would be better! i dont have any knowledge about them and have never dealt with them. do you recommend me using them as my feeders? id like to have more of a variety than just flies. as of now, i use crickets for my twigs (as i know they can make other mantids sick) and wild-caught insects. ill be getting stable fly pupae soon. what im trying to get across is, how do i take care and gutload them? any info will help, thanks.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

Gutloading is unnecessary in terms of what it typically means. Usually when people talk about gutloading they are feeding something like a reptile that needs a large dose of calcium to be added to its feeders to prevent metabolic bone disease. As mantises don't have bones, the gutloads sold in the stores are generally useless verging on dangerous since overly high amounts of calcium can cause shedding problems.

Instead your main goal is to feed your feeders a healthy diet that they will thrive on and in turn pass on to your mantids. Fresh grains, vegetables, and fruits should be the main staples for your roaches. It is also good to add a protein source like a good quality dog food to aid in nymph growth and prevent cannibalism. It is important however to treat such a protein source as a side food not the main course as studies have shown too high of a protein diet can kill roaches as it seems they are not good at passing excess uric acid produced by protein.

I would suggest sticking to the red runners if you don't have something larger than mantises to feed. Dubia get rather big for a lot of species of mantis and something like the red runners would make a far better choice in my opinion.

 

[Extrememantid]

Gutloading is unnecessary in terms of what it typically means. Usually when people talk about gutloading they are feeding something like a reptile that needs a large dose of calcium to be added to its feeders to prevent metabolic bone disease. As mantises don't have bones, the gutloads sold in the stores are generally useless verging on dangerous since overly high amounts of calcium can cause shedding problems.

Instead your main goal is to feed your feeders a healthy diet that they will thrive on and in turn pass on to your mantids. Fresh grains, vegetables, and fruits should be the main staples for your roaches. It is also good to add a protein source like a good quality dog food to aid in nymph growth and prevent cannibalism. It is important however to treat such a protein source as a side food not the main course as studies have shown too high of a protein diet can kill roaches as it seems they are not good at passing excess uric acid produced by protein.

I would suggest sticking to the red runners if you don't have something larger than mantises to feed. Dubia get rather big for a lot of species of mantis and something like the red runners would make a far better choice in my opinion.

As far as the high calcium means moulting issues, is that proven? I know it used to be passed around a lot in the Tarantula hobby but has somewhat recently been proven as a myth. But back to the main question, Dubia and red runners are both great feeders, Dubia start off quite small and get a decent size. Adult dubia can be good feeders for larger more aggressive species of mantid. Red runners are capable of infesting a house if enough were to escape, but they don't burrow and move much faster than dubia. 

 

[Krissim Klaw]

As far as the high calcium means moulting issues, is that proven? I know it used to be passed around a lot in the Tarantula hobby but has somewhat recently been proven as a myth. But back to the main question, Dubia and red runners are both great feeders, Dubia start off quite small and get a decent size. Adult dubia can be good feeders for larger more aggressive species of mantid. Red runners are capable of infesting a house if enough were to escape, but they don't burrow and move much faster than dubia. 

I'm not in the tarantula hobby so I'm not sure if what I heard originated from there. I found it interesting though since they seem to be talking about the calcium found in boned feeders such as mice, but I would think wild T's large enough to eat mice would probably also eat a number of small verts along with inverts.

The way I original heard it was talking specifically about the feeders themselves and came from the fact a lot of people seem to have problems keeping feeders like crickets doing well long term on the super high calcium gut load diets even if they state they can be used as a complete diet for the feeder too. I'll admit though it might be more conjecture along the lines of the popular rumor that crickets cause black death in mantises. Either way I would avoid using gutloads because the mantises don't need it and the stuff tends to be overpriced for what you are getting.

 

[Extrememantid]

I'm not in the tarantula hobby so I'm not sure if what I heard originated from there. I found it interesting though since they seem to be talking about the calcium found in boned feeders such as mice, but I would think wild T's large enough to eat mice would probably also eat a number of small verts along with inverts.

The way I original heard it was talking specifically about the feeders themselves and came from the fact a lot of people seem to have problems keeping feeders like crickets doing well long term on the super high calcium gut load diets even if they state they can be used as a complete diet for the feeder too. I'll admit though it might be more conjecture along the lines of the popular rumor that crickets cause black death in mantises. Either way I would avoid using gutloads because the mantises don't need it and the stuff tends to be overpriced for what you are getting.

Yeah for sure, thanks for clearing that up . Just wasn't sure if it was the same deal with T's or not

 

[MantisGalore]

Ive also heard that too much calcium causes molting problems. I have personally experienced this with orchid mantises. Honestly I have stopped using crickets due to the high death rate of my mantids. I switched to reds and soon will have dubias and they are doing great!

 

[DeShawn]

Red runners are amazing!  I use them for most of my mantids.  I never gutload them.  Just feed a proper diet (I probably don't do that right either!).  Mine are fed a mix of oats and dog food (blended together into a powerder).  I also throw in some bee pollen if I remember to.  I use water crystals for moisture.  If my daughter doesn't eat all of her fruits and veggies I will throw those in there too, as well as parts of fruits and veggies typically thrown out after prepping food (sometimes).

Crickets are not bad for mantids, they just require a quite a bit more care than other feeders in order to keep them healthy and safe to use.  Breeding them yourself is also more work than I personally care to add.  I explained my own experience a few years ago (a bit more than a few I guess) - Are Crickets Bad For Mantids.

Roaches seem to be a bit cleaner and if you have a "cleaner crew" in there you also won't have to clean the bins as often.  My red runner bin has more egg cases on the bottom than waste and I have only had this colony for 5 months.

 

[Starving Always]

Red runners are amazing!  I use them for most of my mantids.  I never gutload them.  Just feed a proper diet (I probably don't do that right either!).  Mine are fed a mix of oats and dog food (blended together into a powerder).  I also throw in some bee pollen if I remember to.  I use water crystals for moisture.  If my daughter doesn't eat all of her fruits and veggies I will throw those in there too, as well as parts of fruits and veggies typically thrown out after prepping food (sometimes).

Crickets are not bad for mantids, they just require a quite a bit more care than other feeders in order to keep them healthy and safe to use.  Breeding them yourself is also more work than I personally care to add.  I explained my own experience a few years ago (a bit more than a few I guess) - Are Crickets Bad For Mantids.

Roaches seem to be a bit cleaner and if you have a "cleaner crew" in there you also won't have to clean the bins as often.  My red runner bin has more egg cases on the bottom than waste and I have only had this colony for 5 months.

that's what ill be doing with my red runners and crickets too! just feeding them so that they'll last until they can be eaten > thanks for the recipe! ill def try it out as there are such a few and simple ingredients to making it. i don't plan on breeding crickets or the roaches either. but what would happen if they were to mate and reproduce? will there be eggs? or… how does it go? also what do you mean by "cleaner crew" ? 

 

[Ranitomeya]

Red runners will lay oothecae that they'll drop around their enclosure. If the enclosure isn't kept humid, the oothecae will shrivel and the eggs inside with dry out and die.

Usually you'll want to collect the oothecae and incubate them in their own humid enclosures rather than make the roach bin humid since that could cause mold, bacterial outbreaks, and grain mite infestations depending on what you're feeding them with and how frequently you're cleaning. If you let them dry out, you won't have to worry about any breeding.

Common cleaning crews for roach bins that are kept dry to avoid mold and other problems are lesser mealworm beetles and dermestid beetles which will consume dead roaches. Lesser mealworms are often as likely to feed on the food you're providing the roaches with as they are on dead roaches, so they're not the best for a cleaning crew. In my opinion, a relatively dry roach bin is easy enough to maintain without a cleaning crew. The only source of moisture in these bins is usually a dish of polyacrylamide gel, or water crystals. I recommend cleaning dry roach bins with a mask to avoid inhaling dry particulates as they could cause serious health issues.

In a bin that's kept humid with moist substrate, cleaning crews usually consist of isopods and springtails which feed on decaying organic matter, mold, and whatever else they might find. They're usually quite good as cleaning crews, but a humid roach bin means that if you feed processed foods, you'll need to feed only as much as the roaches can consume before it gets moldy. Even a good cleaning crew cannot quickly deal with a moldy mass of food before it might become a health hazard for you, the roaches, and whatever you're feeding the roaches to.

 

[DeShawn]

There will be mating, and there will be lots of eggs.  If you want to keep things really simple and you aren't looking to maximize production, then just leave the roaches in the bin with the eggs, add food and water (I recommend water crystals), and keep a vented lid on the enclosure.  The eggs will hatch unless it gets too dry and the water crystals will keep the humidity in the bin from getting too low.  Keep temps the same as you keep mantids and you will do fine for simple home production.  If 90% of the eggs die, you will be overrun with roaches.  Yeah... it's like that.

The cleaning crew will most likely come with your order of roaches whether you order them or not, don't worry about that.  If you really want to ensure they do then just order some with the roaches (usually just a couple bucks more, you don't need a lot).  The lesser mealworms (Buffalo Beetles) are from those tiny black beetles you see often when you order crickets or other feeders.  Very common.  Those are the ones that came in mine.  I don't mind them eating some of the roach food, it's super cheap to make and they make it so I don't have to clean the bin as often.  I have cleaned my roach bins (I keep lobsters too, and just ordered some dubia roaches) 1 time since I got the roaches in late Sept. or early October, and I think it was about a month and a half after I got them.  I think it was because the cleaner crew population was at its lowest. The red runner bin is super clean still, with nothing but egg cases on the bottom.

All of the caresheets for red runners made it sound like the eggs wouldn't hatch and they needed special care with humidity and all that, so I ordered a bunch of roaches since I didn't plan to give them any extra attention.  I figured I would just order more when I got low (like I do with crickets and flies).  Now I am overrun with red runner babies like you wouldn't believe.  It took awhile for the eggs to start hatching, but once they did....oh man.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

Red runners are amazing!  I use them for most of my mantids.  I never gutload them.  Just feed a proper diet (I probably don't do that right either!).  Mine are fed a mix of oats and dog food (blended together into a powerder).  I also throw in some bee pollen if I remember to.  I use water crystals for moisture.  If my daughter doesn't eat all of her fruits and veggies I will throw those in there too, as well as parts of fruits and veggies typically thrown out after prepping food (sometimes).

I'd personally suggest not blending the oats and dog food into a powder as it takes away the roaches ability to self regulate on how much protein they need. Roaches are indeed great for eating unfinished fruits/veggies and extra trimmings. I feel so less wasteful since I got my colony.

They're usually quite good as cleaning crews, but a humid roach bin means that if you feed processed foods, you'll need to feed only as much as the roaches can consume before it gets moldy. Even a good cleaning crew cannot quickly deal with a moldy mass of food before it might become a health hazard for you, the roaches, and whatever you're feeding the roaches to.

My colony is kept with several inches of moist substrate, and I have to admit I've been surprised how little of a mold issue food has been. The only time I ever saw any mold was when I first started the colony and it was hard to tell if the food was even being chewed on because I only had 50 P. Nivea munching on it. I would agree however feeding less but more often pays off with humid enclosures. The easiest way to avoid grain mites and such is to make sure the roaches are clearing out the grain on a regular basis so the mites don't have enough to set up shop with and get a population boom.

 

[DeShawn]

I'd personally suggest not blending the oats and dog food into a powder as it takes away the roaches ability to self regulate on how much protein they need. Roaches are indeed great for eating unfinished fruits/veggies and extra trimmings. I feel so less wasteful since I got my colony.

I should have been a bit more specific with this...

I use about two to three times more oats than dog food in an effort to keep protein at less than 15%.  I would use about half and half when I fed crickets, and roaches need less than half the protein of crickets.  There was a post I remember reading when I first started collecting and some people were having issues with a large amount of die offs and attributing them to humidity/heat conditions when it actually turned out to be the crazy high protein diets of the commercial cricket/roach foods that initially caused the problems (at least that was the consensus).  Since then I have always used this recipe (sometimes using cheerios as well... whatever I have on hand!).

So yea, be careful when mixing, but 2 (or more) parts oats and 1 part dog food will be fine as is.  I have had no negative effects from lobsters or red runners, and so far production is insane, but this is only based on my own personal experience.

Oh, and if you can get some cheap (or often free) spent grain, that is like crack to roaches.  They go nuts over it!  What the heck is in this stuff?

 

[Krissim Klaw]

Oh, and if you can get some cheap (or often free) spent grain, that is like crack to roaches.  They go nuts over it!  What the heck is in this stuff?

You definitely don't have to worry about overloading at 12%. One study found 25% to be around optimal out of the different percentages they tested as far as giving the nymphs enough protein to grow quickly, females energy for ooth production, and yet not cutting the adults lives needlessly short. If your roaches are thriving it sounds like you have a good blend going. Roaches are very good at surviving and breeding like, well roaches. My one cousin who is into reptiles ended up in a major accident, breaking his arm/shoulder along with a leg shortly after starting his first feeder colony. He was the only one in the house willing to deal with them and he couldn't with the huge shoulder cast plus his leg. A few months later he popped the top expect the whole thing to be dead and discovered not only where they not dead but there was ten times the amount he started off with. Apparently they survived off eating the egg crate and the dead.

Seeing how my roaches eat I personally like to give them the choice because I enjoy watching them pick what they want. Nymphs in my colony swarm the dog food, but my adults are far more interested in the fruits/veggies. I've also noticed further splits on what type of fruits/veggies they seem to prefer at different life stages. Zucchini for instance is always a major hit with my nymphs, while it is mostly adults that seem to swarm to banana.

It is no surprise your crew loves spent grain. It is full of fiber, protein, and nutrients. Breweries regularly give or sell it cheap to farms because it makes great feed.

 

[Starving Always]

i feel like my mom wouldnt want me to keep more insects cause she thinks its just another hassle for me to take care of and itd be too much for me to handle. so ill be sticking with flies for now. maybe wild-caught crickets ONLY for emergency, as they are not recommended. she already thinks i have too much and i have only 7 twig nymphs. its probably the amount of containers that i buy, and i already am using. its tough for me to live with them but i gotta make do with what i have as of now. we dont have much room available so i might not keep very many species HAHA. 

 

[Starving Always]

thanks everyone for taking the time to write everything and really trying to help me!! i definetly appreciate it so much!! 

 

[Ranitomeya]

If you do use wild-caught crickets, be aware that there's a chance you may infect your mantises with gordian worms.