Cutting down "watch time" regarding mating aggressive sp.

[Colorcham427]

I am in the process of breeding (at least attempting daily now) D. Lobata.

I sometimes cuff my three middle fingers over the female's shoulder so she cannot grab him if he gets on her, but he will always walk over her and walk back onto the screen. (frustrating!!!)

The male is of course shy, and the female is of course HUNGRY FOR LITTLE MEN!!! lol

Anyways, is it safe and harmless to duct tape her strikers together and let the male hang around in her cage unsupervised? That soft tape they use to keep crab and lobster pinchers shut?

Every time I attempt breeding success, I end up watching them from 6 inches away, 30-40 minutes at a time just standing there! lol

I've been told those tiny rubber bands that are used for braces work well, but then again those seem a whole lot tighter than the tape would be... Any thoughs? Advice, experience is well appreciated. Thanks in advance and I hope my male will finally wake up in the morning with a good... you know what!

 

[MrPitseleh]

I'm still new to mantids and I'm not familiar with the tape you're talking about but I feel a mantids arm could come off more Easily than a crabs bigger claw so getting it back off safely might be difficult and so I wouldn't feel right trying it.

 

[Colorcham427]

Hey MrPitseleh, thanks for replying! So cool that you are into Mantids!!! Awesome avatar, I loved the book but not so much a fan of the movie...

Really good that you are participating, the more you participate and stay active the better off you are my friend.

And yeah, I totally considered that, crab and lobster claws are ridiculously stronger than any mantid claws... But this tape is so soft, I am def. not going to over tighten it. The only main concern I have is restraining her while taping her arms closed and together. thanks for the advice and concern by the way.

However, I am known to be really good with my hands and sensative touch, and I can get an extra person to help me since it is more easier with an extra person helping.

I think I am going to go ahead and give this a shot, I will let you all know what happens. I am hoping she does not get too stressed out.

I will still periodically check on them, every 15-20 minutes I am going to open the door and check them.

She is extremely strong, it is the male that is so fragile. They are both well fed.

I have one more question for you guys:

For a species that likes it humid, would putting them in my bathroom with the hot water on creating a nice warm humid room be beneficial for them? Would this lighten their mood? Or is this just a myth? Not sure if this is due to seasonal/mating season etc. ?

Advice is always welcomed and appreciated.

 

[Rick]

I don't understand the great concern you have here. Is this your only male or something? Once they settle in just let nature take its course. I think that restraining the females front legs will cause her stress which may interrupt the mating. If I am worried about losing the male I just put them into a very large cage or free range on a houseplant in a room. Both options give the male plenty of room to escape. It is only a very small percentage of males that are eaten. As you know mating can take several hours and even days in some species. I personally don't have the patience or the time to stand around just in case something happens, but maybe you do.

 

[Colorcham427]

No offense Rick but have you ever bred D. Lobata? And yes, I only have one male.

 

[sporeworld]

Yeah, here's where entomologists on the forum could really shine... Are there ways to safely medicate a female to make her more docile? Or topical cremes that could sudue muscle movements? Could you simply keep her enclosure much colder, and introduce the warmer male? Is there any research beind her "calling" and willingness to mate...? Or could lobata just be one of those species that won't mate with siblings (I've seen that in moth species). Do we have that kind of expertise on the forum...?

 

[PhilinYuma]

Yeah, here's where entomologists on the forum could really shine... Are there ways to safely medicate a female to make her more docile? Or topical cremes that could sudue muscle movements? Could you simply keep her enclosure much colder, and introduce the warmer male? Is there any research beind her "calling" and willingness to mate...? Or could lobata just be one of those species that won't mate with siblings (I've seen that in moth species). Do we have that kind of expertise on the forum...?

Kova

This is a nice thread, isn't it? While we are waiting for the entomologists, here are a few thoughts that may help.

Calling behavior is well documented. You'll find both a description and pix in Prete's The Praying Mantids.(AKA "the Prete book").

No tranquilizers or topical (I thought that it said "tropical" for a moment!) cremes. The usual way to knock insects out for a while is to dose them with that expensive stuff that Carolina Biologicals sells or CO2 (active yeast, water, sugar) but that would be a very bad idea here -- the female needs to respond in order to copulate and an overdose is fatal.

Yen, our most expert breeder, recently gave the key to breeding mantids. He uses a breeding colony of about 20 insects for an "easy" species (to yield10-15 L4-L5 nymphs with a male: female ratio of 2:1) and perhaps twice that number for a harder species. This is key!

Orin's Keeping Aliens book makes a point that is often overlooked. A couple of calling females can saturate the atmosphere of a room with pheromones, and a nearby male's senses can become deadened to them. I have not seen any literature on this, but if you remove a bashful male to another room for a few days, I know that you stand a better chance of breeding him, because i have done it.

If you bought your mantids from an experienced breeder, ask him/her for advice in breeding the species.

Sometimes, an increase in humidity and temp, to simulate monsoon conditions will work, and I have never known it do harm.

Wild caught adult females are almost always mated, which tells us that even if she killed her mate, she had the good sense to wait until after copulation. Eating the male may be a good reproductive strategy for females, but not if it is done before mating. For this reason, I suspect that our methods of breeding, including placing a male behind or on (living dangerously) the female and blowing in his ear often fail because either the male, female or both are not ready*. If you don't have a room like a bathroom where you can leave the pair over night, try one of those large travelling pet cages that fold up like a 12" cube. Mine is a Sport[doggy paw print]Pet model that is canvas on two sides and has mesh panels, fine enough to detain even a small mantis, on the other two as well as fore and aft. It is 21" high and deep and 35" wide -- wow! that's almost nine times the size of a 12" cube! I don't know how much they cost, because I liberated mine from a dumpster. Put in some fake greenery so that the male can retreat graciously, and you are set. I'll be trying it again, tomorrow, so I'll see if my record holds.

A strategy used by mantids to prevent sibling mating is for the males to mature before the females and fly off in search of females that are already mature. This is an interesting subject. I had never heard of moths that would/could not mate with sibs; it seems to conflict with the definition of a species. Do you happen to know of a specific moth?

*A number of folks swear by these methods, and I am not knocking them, but they are associated with a lot of male deaths when the timing is not right.

 

[more_rayne]

This is a frustrating species when it comes to breeding. The male is totally clueless. He's also fragile and a fraction the size of the female. I tried a harness thing, made a tube out of paper and slipped it onto the female's claw. As expected, she freaked out and kept on biting the tube and trying to shake it off. My female is very calm, would let the male walk all over her. I attempted mating them several times. The final time, she grabbed him and killed him. Total failure. I have pics and video of it that I'll post up at a later time.

 

[sporeworld]

SHort of amputating the female's claws (eek), I wonder if there's any use in something like a tiolet paper roll or cut sock that you could envelop her top and middle in...?

 

[Rick]

No offense Rick but have you ever bred D. Lobata? And yes, I only have one male.

Nope, and that doesn't really matter. Whether I have bred the species makes no difference.

But none of this matters if your male isnt ready which is what it sounds like. You said the female is hungry for males, but you didn't say if she made any aggressive moves towards the male. If she is then perhaps neither are ready. Once they get connected the chances are low he will become lunch if he has ample room to escape. Now I do watch on certain species until they connect. That though generally happens fairly quickly. Upon rereading your initial post it sounds like you want to restrain her so that you can not worry at all and leave the area. Well, if you are hoping they connect while you're gone you may miss the mating altogether. In that case you will not know for certain if they mated. You don't have to take my advice. Do what you feel is best, I've just been doing this for awhile and these are my thoughts.

 

[massaman]

I think this idea of yours is far fetched and just let them mate as nature had them intended without any limitations and you may be successful or then you may not but trying to do extra things on them is just not needed!

 

[more_rayne]

Nobody seems to have any male lobatas, so they are in short supply, plus they are hard to breed. When you only have 1 male and 1 shot at mating, sometimes you take drastic measures.

Not all mantids behave the same, they all require slightly different care. I'm sure they also have different mating habits and 1 rule doesn't fit all.

 

[kitkat39]

This is indeed a very frustrating species to mate. Even after mounting, the males could try to connect for days with no result and eventually just give up, which makes it even more frustrating since it takes forever for them to even mount in the first place. The first time I saw it connect, I was ready to run outside and fire bullets into the air because I was so happy! I later found out that it was probably a dud mate because the male connected for roughly an hour, but afterwards did not get off and tried to connect again and again until he eventually just got off a few days later. These guys will connect for a FULL DAY!

 

[PhilinYuma]

Nobody seems to have any male lobatas, so they are in short supply, plus they are hard to breed. When you only have 1 male and 1 shot at mating, sometimes you take drastic measures.

Not all mantids behave the same, they all require slightly different care. I'm sure they also have different mating habits and 1 rule doesn't fit all.

This is a popular subject, and in a discussion almost exactly two years ago, Superfreak proposed a method that increases the chances of the male copulating (disinhibition for anyone who wants to look it up) and prevents the female from killing the male.

:http://mantidforum.n...h=1 Posts#7-10.

 

[Colorcham427]

Thanks all for this thread, getting more and more interesting. I understand and feel you Rick.

As for the female being hungry for males... lol she tried to kill him a number of times. I am not going to try breeding them for 4 days. I took my friend ChrisP's advice which was also stated above, moving the male into another room. I am keeping him downstairs now for 4-5 days.

Like more_rayne said, one male only and one female only, "I gotta do what i gotta do"... I really want this female and male to not die without making another wave of Lobots!

I hope my male advances sometime after the 4-5 day wait.