Do stagmomantis ooths really need to diapause???

[agent A]

Ik this is a very much debated topic so i dont want any scrutiny for asking this

But is it really all that necessary to diapause stagmomantis ooths?? Ive been patiently waiting almost 4 months for 2 stagmomantis californica ooths to hatch and they r incubating at 90 degrees and high humidity from twice daily misting

Ive heard from paul that californicas dont need diapause (my last diapaused ooth hatched 5 months late and 85% got stuck in the ooth)

Yen said limbatas dont need to diapause

So i am wondering, do stagmos really need to diapause? Stagmomantis carolina lives all throughout the US and while in many of its areas it gets cold temps, in the southern extents of the range like florida and texas, how cold is it really in winter? Amd stagmo limbo and cali are found as southernly as arizona and mexico, i doubt they need a diapause there??

And there r always stories of more than 1 stagmo generation a year down south, implying ooths had to hatch the next gen without diapause

Its not like the ooths know wat generation they r from right? So is it truely necessary to diapause stagmo ooths? I think its too late for these cali ooths to diapause but is diapause really worth it? Id like to hear varying viewpoints on the subject, especially science based ones

Thanx

 

[lancaster1313]

I don't do anything but incubate Stagmomantis carolina oothecae at room temperature. No problems with hatching over here.

 

[Rick]

I never gave one to S. carolina.

 

[Termite48]

Biology major logic not based on clinical data: if one gives a diapause to an ooth after it has been developing eggs, it will not be a good thing for the development. This came up in another thread a few days ago about what to do to hold off the hatching when one has more than one oothecae. Geographically there is so much mixing of the species from colder states to warmer states, that Genera, like Stagmomantis and specifically californica and limbata which are found in both North and South, it makes no sense to always practice the diapause routine as they in nature do not experience it across the board. If you have a wild caught ooth and it is from a cold state like Michigan, for example, the ooth is freshly laid, then by all means give it a diapause as it would have experienced in nature.

 

[frogparty]

Ive got a bunch of S. californica ooths that I just harvested incubating at approx 77 degrees F and nicely humid. Well see how long it takes them to hatch. Despite cold temps, Im still finding some large LARGE females in my folks garage or on screen doors in the evening

 

[agent A]

Ive got a bunch of S. californica ooths that I just harvested incubating at approx 77 degrees F and nicely humid. Well see how long it takes them to hatch. Despite cold temps, Im still finding some large LARGE females in my folks garage or on screen doors in the evening

I would like pics to be sure they r not limbata, and if they r californica would u be willing to sell me a few?

 

[garin33]

Ik this is a very much debated topic so i dont want any scrutiny for asking this

But is it really all that necessary to diapause stagmomantis ooths?? Ive been patiently waiting almost 4 months for 2 stagmomantis californica ooths to hatch and they r incubating at 90 degrees and high humidity from twice daily misting

Ive heard from paul that californicas dont need diapause (my last diapaused ooth hatched 5 months late and 85% got stuck in the ooth)

Yen said limbatas dont need to diapause

So i am wondering, do stagmos really need to diapause? Stagmomantis carolina lives all throughout the US and while in many of its areas it gets cold temps, in the southern extents of the range like florida and texas, how cold is it really in winter? Amd stagmo limbo and cali are found as southernly as arizona and mexico, i doubt they need a diapause there??

And there r always stories of more than 1 stagmo generation a year down south, implying ooths had to hatch the next gen without diapause

Its not like the ooths know wat generation they r from right? So is it truely necessary to diapause stagmo ooths? I think its too late for these cali ooths to diapause but is diapause really worth it? Id like to hear varying viewpoints on the subject, especially science based ones

Thanx

Wow, 4 months. Is that normal for S. Carolina? I just got my first S. Carolina ooth and didn't realize that it would take so long. I would have thought it was dud by then. Is it similar for Limbata?

 

[agent A]

Wow, 4 months. Is that normal for S. Carolina? I just got my first S. Carolina ooth and didn't realize that it would take so long. I would have thought it was dud by then. Is it similar for Limbata?

These r californicas and ive seen them take 10 months with diapause so id say 5 months without it is normal

Limbata take 3 months to hatch

 

[garin33]

These r californicas and ive seen them take 10 months with diapause so id say 5 months without it is normal

Limbata take 3 months to hatch

Sorry, Californicas. When you get old, your eyes don't see things quite as well. You won't have to worry about that for another 30 years or so.

5 months, a long time, you need alot of patience. How long are Carolinas?

 

[frogparty]

Ive got a bunch of S. californica ooths that I just harvested incubating at approx 77 degrees F and nicely humid. Well see how long it takes them to hatch. Despite cold temps, Im still finding some large LARGE females in my folks garage or on screen doors in the evening

I would like pics to be sure they r not limbata, and if they r californica would u be willing to sell me a few?

Yeah I can snap some pics and sell you an ooth

 

[agent A]

Sorry, Californicas. When you get old, your eyes don't see things quite as well. You won't have to worry about that for another 30 years or so.

5 months, a long time, you need alot of patience. How long are Carolinas?

I dont know abt carolinas ive never kept them before

Yeah I can snap some pics and sell you an ooth

Please take pics of females and ooths because californicas r far from large and if possible snap pics of the hindwings

 

[frogparty]

I dont know abt carolinas ive never kept them before

Please take pics of females and ooths because californicas r far from large and if possible snap pics of the hindwings

No pics of females. The ooths are wild collected and were laid outside on the stucco of thier house, or on Lonicera vines. The hind wings on the females were quite dark, Ill try to remember to get pics of the ooths tonight

 

[agent A]

No pics of females. The ooths are wild collected and were laid outside on the stucco of thier house, or on Lonicera vines. The hind wings on the females were quite dark, Ill try to remember to get pics of the ooths tonight

Any dark bands atop the abdomen under the wings??

 

[frogparty]

Not that I remember...I usually see them from the underside on their screen doors LOL

 

[agent A]

Not that I remember...I usually see them from the underside on their screen doors LOL

Lol ok well take pics of the ooths so ik which species u have and u might have cali and limbata...

 

[frogparty]

Theres limbata in the general area of their house, but these ooths are very oval and not rounded at all, much more like californica ooths instead of limbata (at least from pics Ive seen ) Ooths are greyish brown with distinct white "zipper" and I think the largest MIGHT be 4cm in length (more like 2.5-3cm avg)

 

[agent A]

Theres limbata in the general area of their house, but these ooths are very oval and not rounded at all, much more like californica ooths instead of limbata (at least from pics Ive seen ) Ooths are greyish brown with distinct white "zipper" and I think the largest MIGHT be 4cm in length (more like 2.5-3cm avg)

Size sounds cali but idk abt color

Check out stagmomantis consolidated i put pics of both species ooths there for reference

 

[MantidLord]

I've never heard stagmomantis needs diapause. In fact, I figured they were in the same situation as most mantids in North America (T. sinensis, I. oratoria, Litaneutria, and maybe some more) in that the cold merely prevents them from hatching too early and dying off with no food. The cold's not a requirement, but a tool to help them thrive as a species. Taken in a captive, environment, there might not be anything holding them back from hatching.

 

[Ranitomeya]

Diapause might not always be necessary and it certainly would not make sense in a situation where the warmer seasons are long enough that an ootheca has to sit for longer than it can without significant losses to experience a change from warmer weather to cooler weather and back. Egg development is affected by the temperature as we have all observed that cooler temperatures mean later hatch dates, so it is more likely that the diapause we see is a result of cold temperatures slowing down development and not a result of a required biological process. Some species with very slow hatch times might simply have evolved a longer egg stage that can be extended further by cold temperatures.

On the other hand, it is also possible that diapause in mantids is not managed solely by the environmental queues the ootheca experiences and that the discrepency in hatch times is also the result of diapause initiated prior to egg-laying by the environmental queues experienced by the egg-laying female. Mantids kept in captivity cannot be a very good indicator of this as we tend to keep them at more optimal food and temperature levels and lighting is just all over the place. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference in the hatch times for oothecae of the same species between ones obtained from captive bred mantids and ones obained from wild mantids near the end of the season.