How communal is "communal"?

[beatsnotbombs]

I have 2 ghost mantises and 2 indian flower mantises! They're both pretty docile, and friendly to the other. If i were to put these nymphs (the size of your thumbnail) into a large, 5.5 gallon container, would they be aggressive towards each other? How does a species be considered "communal"-is it friendly to its own species exclusively, or a like-sized organisms? I've been meaning to ask for a while.

My ghosts LOVE the top of their current container.

On the other hand, my flowers never leave the plants below the top! It's great, but is it safe?

Thank you. Elaborate answers, anyone! ^_______^

 

[lunarstorm]

What instar are your mantids? If they're L2-L4, they might be better off in a smaller container, to make it easier to find and catch their food.

To address your "communal" question: most experienced mantid folks seem to believe that "communal" is an overused phrase that is often misleading to new folks in the hobby. As you know, mantids are a predatory insects with cannibalistic tendencies, so raising them together is always a risk. Having said that, I really enjoy watching nymphs interact in a communal setting and have done so with both Creo. pictipennis and more recently, P. paradoxa (full disclosure: I haven't raised any ghosts to adulthood yet).

I consider "communal" to generally only apply to the same species. I would not recommend letting your ghosts and creos live together unsupervised, I'm pretty sure you'd have casualties before long. But as long as you supply a proper amount of space and food, the pairs should be fine living together until at least the sub-adult phase.

From my personal experience, I raised ~5 creos together in a netcube until one female earned her wings. After she reached adulthood, her behavior difference was remarkable, she was suddenly very territorial and aggressive. She was immediately aware of her siblings (she previously ignored them) to the point of unprovoked threat displays. After witnessing that, I separated them (and opted to start separating them starting at the sub-adult phase) and never had an incident of cannibalism.

Though I've heard of some having success with keeping adult males together I haven't tried it. I figure that once my mantids have their wings, they've earned their own palace and private food supply.

 

[warpdrive]

I've raised ghosts and have even kept full adults together.

With enough food and space there will be no problems for the most part.

I do prefer to keep males away from females once adulthood. But I have had 2 males and 3 females in a 12 x 12 exotera without issue and they even bred for me.

Creos are best to keep in tiny deli cups as nymphs.

I prefer to keep them in groups of 3 or 4 to a cup till they are about L4. Then I keep them in groups of 2 until adulthood.

Males only with other males to prevent hungry females from eating them. Other then attempting to breed, I even keep my males away from the females due to adult females are always hungry.

Btw, yes is normal for your Creos to like to be upright on flowers.

Harry

 

[Chivalry]

Thanks for this thread, I've been pondering similar questions as I'm thinking about keeping ghosts and gemmatus communally. Definitely wouldn't try creos and ghosts in the same enclosure, I've heard ghosts are pretty laid back and creos are decidedly not... pretty sure the ghosts would never get to eat, even if the creos didn't attack them!

My creos also like to be upright - their cone-vision is made for watching prey above them, and when I let mine out the first thing they do is run to the highest point on my hand and survey UP. That goes for all the flower species I have, actually.

 

[Termite48]

I have been lax in the past regarding communal keeping among different species. Just when thinks that a certain species is not cannibalistic or a threat to another species, they will surprise you. I once had some L-4/5 Violins living in a net cube with a very docile Popa Spurca subadult. One day I came into the bug room to check things and to feed a few mantis and low and behold, the Popa was munching on one of the Violins. Since then I have practiced the idea that unless there is a very good reason, mixing species is a no no and once they "get their wings" use caution unless it is perhaps a couple of females in a large enough space with plenty of food. It is not always about the availability of food. I used to believe it is. Now I have seen and do believe that it is sometimes opportunism. If there is a molt going on a few centimeter from a near adult or adult of the most docile species, it is so tempting to nail that poor mantis when it is molting and unable to flee. Don't risk you mantids if you have other options.

 

[sporeworld]

Yeah, I love, love, love communal setups, but there are certainly risks, and more often than not, losses.

I've found that size matters with some species. As does prey preference. Idolos and Violins that are very hesitant to eat things without wings, can tollerate all kinds of smaller critters in their cages. I've seen brunners and other long stick-like species do well with cage mates too large to attack.

This ties in with an earlier thread of what to do when you have too many. Ghosts, in particular, can be raised in such large numbers, and quickly, that you won't miss a few casualties. And a tank full of relatvely communal ghosts is a wonderful sight. But be warned: Run out of food and all bets are off.