Mantid religosa breeding

[MantidLord]

Sorry i havent updated the european pair but i didnt have access to a computer. Anyways, the subadult pair molted into adults a little over a week ago and I was able to catch three pre sub females and a male one molt behind the three females (Cant give you instars because I don't know them). So, I've been trying to mate the pair but the male is waayy to afraid. if she approaches him he just sits there and literally lets her walk all over him. I allways keep the female stuffed. I try to mate them at all times of the day especially at night. The most he's done is stare at her, point his antennae toward her and move maybe a centimeter towards her. Then he'll stop and eventually stare at something else. The female is very composed so she doesnt draw attention to herself like i wish she would so sometimes the male doesnt even know she's there! I even fed the female right in front of him to stimulate him but nothing. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[Rick]

She shouldn't approach him at all. She should be in front of him. Check out my guide at the top of the forum.

 

[MantidLord]

Thanks. But i've put her in all sorts of positions around him and no luck. She would be in front of him facing the opposite direction and he would just sit there and let her walk away. I only tried the frontal approach because it worked with my iris oratoria males. They would leap right over them and begin copulation. This guy just seems timid no matter what situation he's in. You would think he would be more eager to mate since the wild rarely offers the opportunity i'm offering.

Okay i read your guide again and will try the prodding part some more. I would prod her to get his attention but i figured once he locked on he wouldnt ignore her. This time i'll keep prodding to keep his attention. Will let you know how it goes.

 

[Ntsees]

Sorry i havent updated the european pair but i didnt have access to a computer. Anyways, the subadult pair molted into adults a little over a week ago and I was able to catch three pre sub females and a male one molt behind the three females (Cant give you instars because I don't know them). So, I've been trying to mate the pair but the male is waayy to afraid. if she approaches him he just sits there and literally lets her walk all over him. I allways keep the female stuffed. I try to mate them at all times of the day especially at night. The most he's done is stare at her, point his antennae toward her and move maybe a centimeter towards her. Then he'll stop and eventually stare at something else. The female is very composed so she doesnt draw attention to herself like i wish she would so sometimes the male doesnt even know she's there! I even fed the female right in front of him to stimulate him but nothing. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Hm...it's weird because all of the European males I come upon are like a bunch of hormones. They even try to mate with my Iris oratoria females when they see them. I guess it's just me.

Your European male is probably not ready to mate yet. I don't know but I think you should gorge your male with food. I always do that because I want my males to have lots of "germ" cells (biological term) before they mate. Even if that may not be true, I go by "it's the thought that counts". Are you able to post pictures up?

 

[MantidLord]

Thanks for the advice Ntsees. But thankfully, i won't be needing (yet at least). Last night i went into my room and found the male mounted on the female they werent in copulation so i left them alone. But although they eventually began, I'm a little worried. See, the male would copulate for about two minutes then bring his abdomen outside the female. Then he would wait for like five minutes then put it back in. Then repeat the process. I've never had this happen with the Iris oratoria males, (who just kept going until they were finished). But since I'm unfamiliar with this species in breeding it could be normal.

But then once he was definitely finished, instead of jumping off the female and running around, he stayed on her and just sat there as if she were a branch. She didnt attack him so i guess she had alot of patience. I tried offering her a cricket to curve her hunger. But she thought it was time to move around and climbed up my hand with the male still on her. I placed her back and then she climbed a branch but the male was accidently holding one of her raptoral arms back so she fell on her back. The male went crazy and jumped off her and she just climbded back on. Then this morning i awoke and found her fat and the male devoured leaving only his wings that littered the floor. I don't know if he mated with her before getting eaten or what. I just hope he got the job done the first time around.

I didnt take pics of them mating but i can try to take some of the female. When the male was still on her I did see the rear of her abdomen and that wierd stuff (spermatephore?) which i allways see with my mated females but i dont see it anymore and I allways see it a couple of days after mating. And yeah, the male as well fed before he mated and so was the female, but i guess after hours of sitting there she got hungry again. Thanks again

 

[Emile.Wilson]

I recently had problems like this with one of my orchid pairs, the male was not noticing her at all, he would walk over her hand and almost got eaten. Eventually i got fed up so i put him on her back and left them alone for a few hours, i go in my room and look at there tank and they are mating.

 

[ismart]

The most easiest way to breed europeans is to pretty much place the male on the females back. Have his antennae touch her wings from behind. This should get him interested enough to grab on.

 

[Ntsees]

The most easiest way to breed europeans is to pretty much place the male on the females back. Have his antennae touch her wings from behind. This should get him interested enough to grab on.

Lol. I use a similar technique to this when I want to force my mantids to mate (assuming the male is willing) when I don't have the time to sit and watch the male sneaking-up process. I think this is only for people who know what they are doing otherwise it could get ugly. I gently hold the female's raptorial legs to prevent her from turning back and grabbing the male. Of course the female will sometimes bite and "claw" me, but I can deal with it. So far, this has worked well even for females that are ready but are hostile towards something on their back. Once the male is on her, I just give the sometimes-hostile female something to munch on to keep her company. Even then, she may still become hostile after she finish her meal. I just do my best to prevent her from eating the male. It hasn't happened yet, but I know one of these days, I'm going to lose a male to a hostile female using this method. Even then, hopefully the male would have done his job.

 

[Ntsees]

Thanks for the advice Ntsees. But thankfully, i won't be needing (yet at least). Last night i went into my room and found the male mounted on the female they werent in copulation so i left them alone. But although they eventually began, I'm a little worried. See, the male would copulate for about two minutes then bring his abdomen outside the female. Then he would wait for like five minutes then put it back in. Then repeat the process. I've never had this happen with the Iris oratoria males, (who just kept going until they were finished). But since I'm unfamiliar with this species in breeding it could be normal. But then once he was definitely finished, instead of jumping off the female and running around, he stayed on her and just sat there as if she were a branch. She didnt attack him so i guess she had alot of patience. I tried offering her a cricket to curve her hunger. But she thought it was time to move around and climbed up my hand with the male still on her. I placed her back and then she climbed a branch but the male was accidently holding one of her raptoral arms back so she fell on her back. The male went crazy and jumped off her and she just climbded back on. Then this morning i awoke and found her fat and the male devoured leaving only his wings that littered the floor. I don't know if he mated with her before getting eaten or what. I just hope he got the job done the first time around.

I didnt take pics of them mating but i can try to take some of the female. When the male was still on her I did see the rear of her abdomen and that wierd stuff (spermatephore?) which i allways see with my mated females but i dont see it anymore and I allways see it a couple of days after mating. And yeah, the male as well fed before he mated and so was the female, but i guess after hours of sitting there she got hungry again. Thanks again

If the female has a spermatophore, then everything should be good. If she doesn't, you probably would need to get another male just to be safe. In my experience, European mantids (1 hour plus) mate way longer than Mediterranean mantids (~30-60 minutes). The males are very eager to mate and so I don't know why your male did the things he did (copulating every two minutes and then disconnecting). The only times I've ever experienced a male copulating every two minutes and disconnecting was when I mated him to another female when he was already mated the previous day. A recommendation for your or anyone's future mating attempts: make sure the male is ready; let him rest on a branch outside with the sun warming him up (watch out for him because he might fly away); once he's found a nice spot and is resting feed him a small meal (optional); take out your female and let her craw in front of his view (usually on another branch away from the branch the male is on); when the female move (you should make her move a little) the male's head should turn towards her; make the female move further and further away and the male should be trying to reach her; put the female on a stick and lower her to the male (rear end towards the male's head so the male's antennae can sense and touch the female's wings); he'll jump on and mate.

 

[MantidLord]

Thanks for the replies everyone. And I might have to try that mating technique if something like this were to happen to the extreme. I've never lost a male to a female during mating, allways after. And the male European had never mated before because I caught him as a subadult. The female is very large (from eating him and a large cricket <_< ) and is just resting. Hopefully everything is okay as I've never found a male Mantis religiosa in Nevada (only a female last year that died in two days). I caught these in California so he was the only male that was capable to mate. Will update as the breeding project continues. And Emile, the male would usually notice her, he just wouldnt make a move. Though he would show signs of willingness to mate (such as the pointed antennae and looking dead at her). I guess he was a chicken, and for the right reasons. And another question: how long does the female need to lay an oothecae assuming she's kept stuffed and put in room temperature?

 

[MantidLord]

Just thought I'd add. Since the male was found devoured hours after mating, It's very possible that he mated with her again according to this:

http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/content/abstract/69/2/203

I've seen this allways with my Iris oratoria males who would get eaten after copulation and allways wondered what caused it.

 

[Ntsees]

...how long does the female need to lay an oothecae assuming she's kept stuffed and put in room temperature?

You know, that's a good question. I've never really did pay attention to the amount of time it takes before a buldging female will have an oothecae. I'm guessing it may take a bulging female about a week or less (maybe a little more), but I'm sure it also depends on the species as well as the individual mantid itself and the environment in which it is living (making the educated guess that warmth from the sun/light speeds up the process).

 

[Ntsees]

Just thought I'd add. Since the male was found devoured hours after mating, It's very possible that he mated with her again according to this:http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/content/abstract/69/2/203

I've seen this allways with my Iris oratoria males who would get eaten after copulation and allways wondered what caused it.

True, I've seen that happen to my Iris oratoria also. One of my Iris females manage to capture a male head-on before he was able to get on her back but as he was being devoured, he still managed to struggle and copulate. However, I've never seen that happen to European mantids but hopefully someone can confirm this. I'm guessing that it may be because the female is too strong on her grip?

In regards to the male copulating again after a fews hours from a previous copulation, I don't count that as a successful copulation (even if it looks successful) because I think he probably discharged all of his germ cells in the first act. He would need a few days to recharge. This is just a guess and I hope to experiment on this in the future with non-parthenogenic mantids.

 

[MantidLord]

True, I've seen that happen to my Iris oratoria also. One of my Iris females manage to capture a male head-on before he was able to get on her back but as he was being devoured, he still managed to struggle and copulate. However, I've never seen that happen to European mantids but hopefully someone can confirm this. I'm guessing that it may be because the female is too strong on her grip?In regards to the male copulating again after a fews hours from a previous copulation, I don't count that as a successful copulation (even if it looks successful) because I think he probably discharged all of his germ cells in the first act. He would need a few days to recharge. This is just a guess and I hope to experiment on this in the future with non-parthenogenic mantids.

Yeah you're most likely right. I was kinda thining the same thing. Especially because I had a male (again Iris oratoria) that mated with three females but did so between intervals of two - three days. All ooths were fertile but he possibly knew that he used all of his germ cells (assuming of course that they can regenerate or recupirate).

As for the Mantis religiosa and the copulation while cannibalism, I'm guessing it would depend on how the female grabs the male. If she grabs him by the thorax (the usual and prefered way) success is possibly low. But if she barely manages to grab him by the head, maybe he could maneuver his body to copulate. The reason I asked about the laying time is because I figured that if she lays an ooth within a week or a little over, then at least the mating was a success (whether or not they're fertile can't be determined). But if she were to only lay, say two small ooths right before she dies of old age, then it's safe to assume that he failed.

This could help a little bit:

http://www.zoo.sav.sk/vaclav/Articles/ETHOLOGY2005.pdf