more chinese questions..

[womantis]

had a few questions about the chinese mantis. hatched a few ooths, released most of the nymphs when they got to L2 and have kept a few, now at L3. i have read that they molt about 5 times before becoming an adult.

(i have only lost one to a mismolt and am actually surprised at the very low mortality rate - but maybe i just got lucky this time around.)

how many times do they typically molt throughout their entire lifecycle?

and for perhaps a silly question, if i keep them super well fed, is it still too risky to keep them together, once they get past L3? so far no cannabilism at L2/L3, but i don't want to tempt fate...

shira

 

[Rick]

Several molts. Like most mantids they are opportunistic feeders and will eat each other at any stage of life.

 

[CoolMantid]

I have seen even l1s go for each other. It is a very risky idea, you probally only end up with one then that one will die from a mismolt (Which I belive they are prone to)

Its better to seperate them, so you have more breeders in the future. I have 17 right now, wait 16 one died from a mismolt. They are in seperate portion cups. I released over 600 nymphies from 8 oothecas that my old female laid for me. 800 total. I hope I see adults in my garden this year.

 

[hutch2828]

They are pretty canabalistic. Friends and I have kept them together until they molted to L5, but we had alot of casualties. L4 is probably the latest to go without seperating.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

I have seen even l1s go for each other. It is a very risky idea, you probally only end up with one then that one will die from a mismolt (Which I belive they are prone to)

Why would the last one die of a mismolt? To be the last mantis standing you have to be a rather healthy robust specimen to eat all your peers. I have not experienced the high mismolt rates people claim with this species. I can't help but wonder if some of the issue is not providing them with enough room or easy to grip wall space, not just ceiling space. Since they can't be kept together, people often cheat them on the cage space, especially when raising them in masses. In my opinion this species does not do good in tiny deli cups and other small plastic/glass cages.

 

[CoolMantid]

Why would the last one die of a mismolt? To be the last mantis standing you have to be a rather healthy robust specimen to eat all your peers. I have not experienced the high mismolt rates people claim with this species. I can't help but wonder if some of the issue is not providing them with enough room or easy to grip wall space, not just ceiling space. Since they can't be kept together, people often cheat them on the cage space, especially when raising them in masses. In my opinion this species does not do good in tiny deli cups and other small plastic/glass cages.

You do make a good point. Chinese mantids are a perfect example of overproduction. Overproduction is where any animal produces far more offspring than will possibly make it in the wild. 300 babies... how many would you say make it to adult. Possibly 50.... how many are able to make to breed. Possibly 20... how many have a chance to lay. Possibly 15.. This is just a hypothectical situation but it shows overproduction.

I have experienced the high mismolt rate first hand. I see them just getting stuck or not even leaving the skin.

Some mantids are not physically meant to live and they randomly die. I am not saying that the one sole nymph will surely die but there is a very high chance that it will.

That mantis might be able to eat his/her siblings but that doesnt mean he will necessarly live. Yes he is stronger than his siblings or his sibling was in the wrong place at the wrong time and just can snatched.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

You do make a good point. Chinese mantids are a perfect example of overproduction. Overproduction is where any animal produces far more offspring than will possibly make it in the wild. 300 babies... how many would you say make it to adult. Possibly 50.... how many are able to make to breed. Possibly 20... how many have a chance to lay. Possibly 15.. This is just a hypothectical situation but it shows overproduction.

I have experienced the high mismolt rate first hand. I see them just getting stuck or not even leaving the skin.

Some mantids are not physically meant to live and they randomly die. I am not saying that the one sole nymph will surely die but there is a very high chance that it will.

Why would a very robust nymph however have a very high chance of having shedding issues? It doesn't make any sense to look at a healthy specimen, last mantis standing, and say well clearly the odds are against you and your genetics stink so you will die shedding. Since I only keep mantises for pets, I routinely raise up only 1-2 Chinese mantises at a time. Never once have I lost one during the shedding process. Overproduction to me doesn't mean a bunch of babies are pumpped out because they have terrible genetics but to combat the fact there is a lot of bad out in the big wide world. By bad I mean predators, and the evironment, not their own failed genetics. Chinese mantises are an extremely prolific species that has spread far and wide which to me, speaks to the species health not its lack there of.Then again, I tend to look at husbandry practices before blaming genetics. I'm not saying weak genetic specimens aren't born, but I haven't seen this great difference in numbers compaired to other species. I'm curious what do you raise your Chinese nymphs up in?

 

[CoolMantid]

I never said that they would surely DIE from shedding problems, but I still do believe this species is prone to mismolts.

I also never said that I was blaming genetics. Overproduction goes along with many species. I did not say its is jsut cause there genetics stinks. Infact I did not say that at all. The chinese mantises have more babies in an ooth because so they can have a next generation and to keep their genes going.

Are you saying that I am the only one you has experienced mismolts? If you are, I am not the only one who has experienced mismolts. I am raising them in metal grid deli cups.

One last nymph is NOT BETTER than 20. So if we could get back on topic. Seperate them at L2/3, keep 25 and release the rest

 

[Krissim Klaw]

I never said that they would surely DIE from shedding problems, but I still do believe this species is prone to mismolts.

I also never said that I was blaming genetics. Overproduction goes along with many species. I did not say its is jsut cause there genetics stinks. Infact I did not say that at all. The chinese mantises have more babies in an ooth because so they can have a next generation and to keep their genes going.

Are you saying that I am the only one you has experienced mismolts? If you are, I am not the only one who has experienced mismolts. I am raising them in metal grid deli cups.

One last nymph is NOT BETTER than 20. So if we could get back on topic. Seperate them at L2/3, keep 25 and release the rest

My response was at the fact you seem to have such a negative view on one nymphs chances. You must believe they have over a 50% chance of dieing in molt to state chances are if you only have one it will mismolt.No, I don't think you are the only one. I've seen others report higher shedding issues but then again I've seen others who speak up and state they have not experienced it. It makes me question what might some might be doing differently than others that could benefit the species. Sort of like with Idols. Initially many people, even experienced keepers were having a terrible go at it and now that everyone has figured out what works I've seen some of the pros state they have as good survival rates with the Idols as the other species they raise.

I'm not familar with metal grid deli cups but I assume those are deli cups with a metal lid. One thing I have personally noticed with Chinese mantises, is I have never once had a Chinese choose to shed form a ceiling when a properly textured wall they could grip was offered.

Sorry for side tracking the thread and hassel you with a conversation your not interested in. I'll leave at that unless you want to discuse things further over pms.

I an in aggreement that the nymphs should be seperated immediatly if the goal is to not have deaths. I've had cannablism happen as early as 12 hours after hatching. Apparently they didn't get the memo on love thy neighbor.

 

[maybon]

I never said that they would surely DIE from shedding problems, but I still do believe this species is prone to mismolts.

I also never said that I was blaming genetics. Overproduction goes along with many species. I did not say its is jsut cause there genetics stinks. Infact I did not say that at all. The chinese mantises have more babies in an ooth because so they can have a next generation and to keep their genes going.

Are you saying that I am the only one you has experienced mismolts? If you are, I am not the only one who has experienced mismolts. I am raising them in metal grid deli cups.

One last nymph is NOT BETTER than 20. So if we could get back on topic. Seperate them at L2/3, keep 25 and release the rest

+1, I would keep a few as well just in case you only have 1-5 or what ever and they die to mis-moults or other unexplained deaths. It is always better to be safe than sorry.

 

[MantidLord]

I've kept these guys together in a large terrarium up until and including adults. I had about two pairs make it two adult hood, they mated, males eventually got ate, and females laid their ooths. Now, I'm not saying to do this, but it is possible. The terrarium was very large mind you, with LOTS of vegetation and crickets. But still, for breeding purposes, I wouldn't do it. I did it for a science experiment.

Btw, I haven't experienced the high molting mortality rates. I guess because of the ones in the terrarium, they had lots of humidity due to live plants and a mister timer. And the ones I kept in jars were misted lightly a couple of times every week. Husbandry definitely plays a role (obviously) but it could be I was just lucky. I mean, I obviously wasn't lucky enough to get the ooths that resulted to hatch

Krissim Klaw: what do you mean a "properly textured wall"? The mantids I mentioned above were molting EVERYWHERE. On the sides of plants, leaves, but mostly on the top of the mesh cage. I would assume vegetation would have the right texture for these guys, considering they live in vegetation, yet the majority still chose to molt from the very top.

 

[CoolMantid]

My response was at the fact you seem to have such a negative view on one nymphs chances. You must believe they have over a 50% chance of dieing in molt to state chances are if you only have one it will mismolt.

No, I don't think you are the only one. I've seen others report higher shedding issues but then again I've seen others who speak up and state they have not experienced it. It makes me question what might some might be doing differently than others that could benefit the species. Sort of like with Idols. Initially many people, even experienced keepers were having a terrible go at it and now that everyone has figured out what works I've seen some of the pros state they have as good survival rates with the Idols as the other species they raise.

I'm not familar with metal grid deli cups but I assume those are deli cups with a metal lid. One thing I have personally noticed with Chinese mantises, is I have never once had a Chinese choose to shed form a ceiling when a properly textured wall they could grip was offered.

Sorry for side tracking the thread and hassel you with a conversation your not interested in. I'll leave at that unless you want to discuse things further over pms.

I an in aggreement that the nymphs should be seperated immediatly if the goal is to not have deaths. I've had cannablism happen as early as 12 hours after hatching. Apparently they didn't get the memo on love thy neighbor.

No no I am sorry if I sounded as I did not care for your opinion. I do in fact

Metal grid deli cups are deli cups with a metal lid and a portion of the cup is also a metal grid.

I do think that there is 25% chance that sole nymph will die

Anyways I think we have heard eachothers points.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

Krissim Klaw: what do you mean a "properly textured wall"? The mantids I mentioned above were molting EVERYWHERE. On the sides of plants, leaves, but mostly on the top of the mesh cage. I would assume vegetation would have the right texture for these guys, considering they live in vegetation, yet the majority still chose to molt from the very top.

Properly textured wall just means something that they can easily grip from that creates verticle cling space not just the horizontal grip of a screen top. I love net cages for these guys since with their size they are less than graceful on plastic and glass. If placed in a plastic or glass cages mine would spend 90% of the time on the ceiling. In a net cube mine prefered the sides to the ceiling although they will also hang out on the ceiling too. I never once however had one choose to shed from the ceiling. They all liked the walls. Admittedly mine also snubbed most of my sticks and plants. Maybe they just didn't like my sense of decour. :sweatdrop: I think some of the cage set ups I've seen used for Idols would be pretty sweet for Chinese. I bet they would love all that easy to grip surface area and different angles. Unlike the Idols though I have not noticed any issues with Tarsus being broken in net cages.

I bet your's loved the set up of a huge tank with lots of stuff to play on. Chinese are still the most active species I have personally kept. They love to roam around so I'm sure yours really enjoy the extra room.

 

[womantis]

thank you all for your insights and sharing your experiences. i am brand new to the mantis world and am learning a lot!

i have had 2 ooths hatch in the past month. all produced about 100 nympths each. for 2.5 weeks, i kept all the nymphs from ooth 1 - to my surprise lost about 3 in total (right after hatching - they died almost immediately) didn't see any cannibalism, kept lots of drosophila available and misted the cage 2x a day with a live plant inside. i was surprised at how social they were. then released them in the garden. they are all over the large palm tree, lemon tree and some of the shrubs and are doing well from what i can see. i have kept 5, lost 1 to an obvious mismolt and they are now at L3/4. they are in a large butterfly cylinder mesh enclosure. moltings occur on the sides, on dead twigs that i have put in the cage and on the live plant. i am misting 2x a day.

from ooth 2, i kept another 5, released the rest. they are at L2 and are doing well.

i actually expected a much higher mortality rate, with so many nymphs - not due to cannibalism, but simply that there would be some genetic/environmental factors that would cause morbidity. but perhaps the availability of food, good temp/humidity was beneficial to their survival.

i will separate them very very soon as i expect them to start "noticing" each other.

for

 

[Krissim Klaw]

@ Womantis- It sounds like you are doing good. It is fun getting to watch them outside living in nature. I've found Chinese mantises can both be more and less cannablistic than expected, if that makes any sense. My advice is always to seperate before you start getting attached to individuals, giving names, or counting on certain ones to survive for breeding.

 

[womantis]

thanks krissim klaw..i do appreciate your advice and the advice of the other posters. i do have a few in a net enclosure- now that i am counting sheds, they are probably L4 now and i am just tempting fate with them in one space. interestingly enough, they do ignore each other and seem to mutually back away when they get too close. they are eating small crickets. so tomorrow is separation day - to the garden and to individual enclosures.

i can see how this whole mantis thing can get addicting! already thinking about the next species to care for...

shira