Plan on buying T. sinensis ooths, and hatching them over winter

[Storm&bugfreak]

Hello everyone!

I'm new on the forum, so please excuse me if this has been asked before. I have done a little searching and read some posts, but I'm still unclear with a couple things in regards to hatching T. sinensis ooths over the winter without having to keep them cool for a few months. I'm planing on buying a few ooths once they're available online, and want to hatch them as soon as possible without having to winterize them. Is that alright? I've read somewhere saying that it is okay, but some people have said that the nymphs will more likely die young if you don't winterize them.

Also, is it okay to keep them nymphs in the same container right after they hatch? I want to wait until they're at least L2 before separating them.. Some poeple have said that they need to be separated immediately.

And lastly, I've also read somewhere that picking T. sinensis as a choice of species of mantis to raise is a HUGE gamble and should be for highly experienced insect enthusiasts only, is that true? I have some decent experience taking care of chinese mantids, but only as adults and late nymphs molting into adults.. Never as younglings fresh from hatching.

Thank you all in advance for your help and thank you admins, mods, etc for having such an awesome community open to other mantis/insect enthusiasts!

Best regards,

Robert

 

[CosbyArt]

@Storm&bugfreak Hello Robert and welcome.

The Chinese mantis (Tenodera sinensis) is not recommended for beginners as they can be a bit difficult (and not a hardy species compared to those ranked for beginners), and are a intermediate care species (see the caresheet here). They are however one of the most commonly found in the wild (depending on locations), and their ooths are even sold at garden centers and such to be hatched outdoors in spring - so they tend to be the first species for many anyway.

If you have some experience with mantises as you mentioned you will likely be just fine with them, just prepared for all the little nymphs.

On to your questions.

You can incubate the ooths (ootheca) without any diapause, but as it is now heading into winter you will have to raise all the hatched nymphs yourself, or try selling/giving away some in the classifieds section, as release outside is not a option. I will warn you though from the many nymphs I've offered for sale, the Chinese is a species few members will buy or take freely (them paying only the shipping costs), so you will end up with 99% of the nymphs.

A single Chinese mantis ooth will hatch on average 100 nymphs or more, and that will require many 32oz Hydei fruit fly cultures to feed. Thankfully as they are a larger species, you can skip the Melanogaster FF stage, and start with Hydei FF.

The Chinese ooths are commonly available in the classifieds section of the forum, or the common mantis websites BugsInCyberspace, MantisPlace, and MantisPets.

I would recommend for you to avoid ebay and other places as the ooths they offer are almost always misidentified by the sellers (who have no experience, no knowledge, and flat out do not care even if they are informed it is another species) and you will end up with who knows what.

Not only can you keep the nymphs together for the start of their lives, it is recommended for several reasons. For example not all nymphs will successfully molt to their L2 (2nd instar) stage (birthing defects, too weak, etc) so it saves you many hours of work separating them all and feeding. Also it is much easier to keep a larger habitat properly maintained (heat and humidity) than 100+ smaller habitats, feeding is tons easier too (no 100+ cups to feed which can take 3-5 hours every other day), and similar reasons.

They are like most mantid species cannibalistic, and at all times after hatching their numbers will decrease due to it (no matter the amount of prey they are fed).

After their first molt to L2 they will crank up the pace on being cannibals, and is when they should be separated for their safety. If you want to let their population dwindle down some to more manageable levels, separate them after their 2nd molt to L3 (or sooner if needed). Not only will you end up with less numbers, but the remaining nymphs are much harder stock - it seems they gain something from being cannibals that they will not from other prey.

If you have any questions when you get started feel free to ask as many of us have raised many dozens of the Tenodera sinensis ooths, or loads more, not to mention several other species.

As you seemed the most concerned about housing them together at the L1 to L2 stage, here are a few photos of a couple ooths of Chinese nymphs together doing just that (look closely to see just how many are really in my photos).

View attachment 7219

 

[hibiscusmile]

First welcome, second, Cosby how do u find time to write all that? you are amazing! Ditto to whatever he said.

 

[CosbyArt]

First welcome, second, Cosby how do u find time to write all that? you are amazing! Ditto to whatever he said.

I guess it's from trying to help, and I make the time when necessary. Thanks

 

[Storm&bugfreak]

Hello! First off thank you all for the warm welcomes!

Second, Cosby, I've read some of your posts and you truly are phenomenal at explaining everything! I was really hoping you'd reply to this post! 

Thank you so much for the helpful information brother!  I literally got my notebook out and jotted everything down - I plan on writing up a caresheet and right now, I'm taking notes on the how-to's and then going to write up a blue-print and record how I build my setup, then proceed from there.

And I'll definitely reach out to this community when I have any future concerns! So far, I think I have my whole plan laid out. I'm planning on hatching two ooths so I can breed (I know inbreeding is okay according to some, but I want them to be genetically clean as much as possible) in two large, plastic bins rigged for mantis housing with netting, and I might try that sponge world idea that I saw on the housing subforum. Then, I'm going to snag 10 large tupperware food containers and pick 5 of my favorites out of each of the nymph bins when they're at L2 and attempt to raise 10 healthy Chinese mantids to adults. Hopefully I can find some food containers that are large enough so I can raise them to adulthood in them and keep them as adults in there. Any extras I have left, I plan on donating to either my former science teacher from high school, my sister who is also a science teacher for middle school, or the Cincinnati Zoo, which has a T. sinensis exhibit there!   If all else fails with donating extras, I'll rig the nymph bins up somehow, create dividing walls with mesh/or buy more tupperware (Stuff's decently priced at my local cosco) and raise any extras in there. It definitely doesn't hurt to have an extra or two in case any problems rise (Prolapse, female downright eats male before any mating happens, male or female die early for no reason, mismolt, etc)

From there on out when they all become adults, I hope to breed them. I'm going to buy a large butterfly netted cage to use as the breeding room/space room for the males as I know they can be pretty active and animated in their peak adult stage. Plan is to just let the male have the time of his life in the large space, feed him maybe once ever other day depending on how plump he is, and when I feel like they're ready for breeding, place the female, while she's face-deep in a chipotle-style grub-worm, inside the male's lair and hope for the absolute best!

I'll post more on the other subforums as I want to record my adventure in all of this! I also plan on doing some youtube videos too!

 

[CosbyArt]

@Storm&bugfreak Many thanks, I help at when I can. Your more than welcome for the information.

It seems like you have a plan for your process, and even extra nymphs, so you are more ready than most others (even myself when dealing with extra ones).

Inbreeding insects does not seem to affect them, mantises included with few exceptions. For example the Orchid mantis (Hymenopus coronatus) is known to have problems after 3 to 5 generations of inbreeding. The natives such as the Stagmomantis carolina, Tenodera sinensis seem to show no ill effects.

For Tupperware/Sterilite plastic containers your have good luck getting them at local dollar stores such as Dollar Tree, Dollar General, Family Dollar, etc. and depending on their stock I am often raiding the shelves at all three places myself. I have found some sites online that offer them even more affordable, but after shipping and waiting times it tends to cost the same or even more in the end.

If your out of luck on finding any, then stores such as Walmart, Big Lots, Kmart, Target, etc. all have a plastic storage container area, but their prices can be prohibitive if you need to buy many. I now see you mention you have a CostCo so you should be fine then.

Indeed it is good to have some extra mantises on hand, as you never know what might happen. Also male mantises tend to eat far less than females (especially as adults), and often go for a week without eating. It seems they are too invested in finding a mate/breeding to bother eating.

Sounds good, I'll be sure to check out your logs and videos as you progress. Best of luck.

 

[Teamonger]

I'm so happy this topic came up. I'm about to have two ooths hatch (the waiting is killing me) and this answers so many of my questions. Its great to know leaving them to "thin the ranks" is something people do and knowing what molt you should start thinking about separating them is fantastic information.

Thank you @Storm&bugfreak for asking this and @CosbyArt for your always amazing answers.

 

[CosbyArt]

I'm so happy this topic came up. I'm about to have two ooths hatch (the waiting is killing me) and this answers so many of my questions. Its great to know leaving them to "thin the ranks" is something people do and knowing what molt you should start thinking about separating them is fantastic information.

Thank you @Storm&bugfreak for asking this and @CosbyArt for your always amazing answers.

It is a popular thing in the late fall/winter hatching ooths. The wait for them to hatch can drive even patient people crazy though.

Yes, like anything many members do allow the nymph numbers to dwindle down a bit - while others will separate them within 24 hours of them hatching. Those who separate them that quickly though tend to be either breeders/sellers or someone new to it. As after a few ooths most discover the benefits of keeping them together for themselves.

Glad you were able to get some use from the information too, and your welcome. If you have any questions as well, feel free to ask.

 

[Storm&bugfreak]

I'm so happy this topic came up. I'm about to have two ooths hatch (the waiting is killing me) and this answers so many of my questions. Its great to know leaving them to "thin the ranks" is something people do and knowing what molt you should start thinking about separating them is fantastic information.

Thank you @Storm&bugfreak for asking this and @CosbyArt for your always amazing answers.

You're welcome! I'm glad I brought this up! I'm so glad I found this awesome forum! I can't believe I haven't found it earlier, I've been catching mantids on and off over the past 12 years (Never really bought them online as they're naturalized here in Kentucky! Always were able to catch them here!)

Welp guys, I have an update; I forgot to mention that I had an old ooth from a mantis I caught back in September, she laid her egg, but not in a good spot in the cage... She laid it right on the corner where the lid and the cage meet.. So obviously, I kinda had no choice but to destroy part of the egg so I could open the cage and clean it. I figured it was a dud, probably not fertilized, and it wasn't the best looking ooth either.. So I proceeded to open the cage, clean it, leave whatever part of the ooth that was left in tact in the cage as I couldn't really pry it off.. said heck with it and left it in there and figured I'd deal with it later.

Well, sure enough, this morning, they hatched! I guess I'm starting this mantis shindig much earlier than I thought! And pretty unprepared too as I figured it was never ever going to hatch. But I was able to get some cheap containers and poke holes through them! I was also lucky that my local pet shop sells fruit fly cultures, so I got some Hydei fruit flies, and put some in the cage that they hatched in! They hatched around 20 hours ago I'd guess? I woke up with them already hatched and just chillin' there, so I think it's okay to introduce them to some food. I also picked a few out and isolated some in the containers I got from the dollar store. I'm using this first surprise hatch to try my mantis-raising thumb and find my niche. The next time I hatch sinensis, I'll be hatching them in a large bin and not in a cubic foot bugarium lol, so the outcome will be much better than what I feel like this outcome will be. Wish me luck! I'm hoping I can at least pull a couple adults out of this spur of the moment hatch! As of right now, I'm not expecting them to make it as I'm stuck in my apartment for one more month (I'm essentially waiting to move out to my other place next month to start my real mantis setup) and the temperatures change pretty drastically as the heater/AC system is all out of wack.

 

[CosbyArt]

@Storm&bugfreak Most keepers purchase mantids online as there are 2400 mantid species that exist, and most states have maybe only 2 native species.

Yeah the ooths that appear like they won't hatch tend to surprise keepers. Glad to hear the ooth was in a container, and you found some Hydei so quickly. When you go to move them in a month just wrap the habitats with towels/blankets and keep them in a warm vehicle, that will help cut down on the sudden temperature changes.

In the meantime with your heater/AC system issues you can cover the shelf they are on with towels, as it too will help prevent sudden temperature changes and give them a better chance. I attached a photo of my old mantis setup covered for night, nothing fancy needed. The striped towel had sew in button holes added that allows me to slip it on/off easily over screw posts. I cover the shelf at night to prevent fan drafts, keep the cats at bay, and when the light timer turns them on in the morning it doesn't affect anyone still asleep.

Good luck with your nymphs.

 

[Storm&bugfreak]

Right on, thank you so much for the tips on keeping them warm! So far, I think they're doing good! Some of them are already eating the fruit flies, I think this is going to turn out pretty good! I was kind of worried about them not eating, I'm glad they're starting As always, I expect a few casualties, but I'm hoping I can get at least two to adulthood in the next few months! I'm really looking forward to the subadult stage too as they seem really playful around that time! Adult stage would be awesome though, I love how active the males are when they're adults - They're almost like parrots! And the females are just beautiful when they show their threat/attack pose.

Now before they molt into their second instar, when I see the signs, should I remove all feeder fruit flies so they don't disrupt the molting process? I've heard some people say that you should, other say it's just the more attack-y kind like crickets.

Thank you Cosbyart and everyone else for the wonderful help and answers!

 

[CosbyArt]

@Storm&bugfreak I wouldn't worry about removing the fruit flies, that is unless you have hundreds or more in there (I've seen some over zealous keepers before lol).

Your right the crickets are a issue as they can snack on the defenseless molting mantids (crickets have biting mouths, fruit flies do not), or even knock the mantids from their molting perch. The fruit flies should be nothing more than a nuisance if that.

Your welcome, and ask if you have any other questions.

 

[Serle]

Storm and Bug 

Your story is pretty  exciting , I am waiting for a couple ooth\'s that I ordered to arrive.  Right now I am liiving vicariously thru you. Finding this Forum is beneficial in many ways.  S