Unmated Mio's Oothecae Hatching!

[GreenOasis]

I know it's not new news for most of you old hats on here, but I just wanted to conirm with y'all that Mios are DEFINITELY parthogenetic!

We had been going through old ooths that I'd saved in baggies (just in case!) the other day and the old mio one had tiny little dead nymph in it! So, we quickly got the rest of the ooths (all laid after this one) and glued them to a lid and started incubating them & one of them began hatching yesterday. I've counted 16 babies so far & yes, a few have already died, but I will try very hard with the rest to keep them going. I just think it's so amazing! They took about 2 mos to hatch out, btw!

I do have a question for those of you who this is not new news...has anyone ever raised this species parthogenetically to the third generation? (i.e. raised the babies from unmated ooths to adulthood & let them lay unfertilized ooths, which then hatched, etc.)

Also, can anyone tell me of other species that are parthogenetic (definitely)? I know about Brunner's, but I believe I've also heard of other species...like, Rhombodera? I dunno, but I'm sure someone out there (YEN!) knows!

Thanks!

 

[dgerndt]

Congrats! I got 16 babies out of my ooth, too! :lol: I plan on letting mine lay unfertilized ooths, so I'll let you know how that goes. It'll be a few months, though!

 

[PhilinYuma]

Yes, Miomantis paykullii and Sphodromantis viridis are well documented as being facultative parthenogens. Brunneria borealis is an obligate parthenogen, since only females exist, while the first two only reproduce parthenogenetically if there are no males present, and the offspring tend to become increasingly vitiated after several generations of asexual reproduction (this is a common problem with captive strains of some facultatively parthenogenetic phasmids that have to be reinvigorated after a few generations by the introduction of a male or two).

Obligate parthenogens come in two flavors, constant and cyclical. B. borealis is constant, obviously, but aphids are well known for producing alternate broods (? ) by sexual and asexual generation.

 

[hibiscusmile]

Phil is our info in this part of the world, take his advice, for me, I cannot understand anything he says, but I believe him! :lol:

 

[hibiscusmile]

ps, Don't ya just hate it when you go snooping around and there are babies in a baggie? Sounds bad, like something that would be on the news if they heard part of the conversation, and some of us could end up in jail :excl: :detective: :hammer: here ye, here ye, the case of the thrown away baggie babies is now in session!

 

[MantidLord]

Phil, you forgot to mention Iris oratoria also reproduces through parthogenesis. Not constantly, as there are males in the species, but they are known to do it.

 

[hibiscusmile]

ps, Don't ya just hate it when you go snooping around and there are babies in a baggie? Sounds bad, like something that would be on the news if they heard part of the conversation, and some of us could end up in jail :excl: :detective: :hammer: here ye, here ye, the case of the thrown away baggie babies is now in session!

:lol: I kill me! :tt2:

 

[GreenOasis]

24 nymphs now and this ooth is STILL hatching!

The ooths were laid some 10-14 days apart, so I expect I'll have them coming out of my ears before too much longer! :blink:

On a weird note: Some of the nymphs that seemed weak at first have perked up and I can only find a single dead one now.

Also, the first ooth she laid only had the one nymph hatch out (in the baggie)...not sure if this could be due to lack of air in the baggie or just because it was her first ooth. Like, maybe the parthogenesis didn't "kick in" until the first ooth was laid unfertilized?

Just throwing that out there as "food for thought"!

 

[Orin]

...increasingly vitiated after several generations of asexual reproduction (this is a common problem with captive strains of some facultatively parthenogenetic phasmids that have to be reinvigorated after a few generations by the introduction of a male or two).

What's your source on this one? That's not actually a problem with phasmids.

 

[GreenOasis]

I'd be curious to know the same, Orin! Not that I doubt the word of our great Phil...just that I'd like to learn more on the subject, as I find it fascinating!

 

[PhilinYuma]

What's your source on this one? That's not actually a problem with phasmids.

The specific instance to which I was referring was Superfreak's experience with Children's, Tropidoderus decipiens in NSW, where it is native. Any captive colony without males, of course, will never benefit from amphimixis, until or unless fresh males are introduced. In her case, the newly hatched nymphs in a long established, captive community were very weak and had trouble eating (we had a busy time trying to find ways to break down the eucalyptus leaves from chewing them to grinding them with a pestle and mortar!).She was able to acquire a couple of males and told me that the strain was stronger and more fecund thereafter.

This is an anecdotal report, of course, and Chapman's excellentdiscussion of thelytoky, (The Insects, 1998, p.357) would appear to support your view, but he does not discuss its occurrence in phasmids, and I have no reason to doubt Superfreak's powers of observation or her entomology.

Alas, my copy of Ghosts of the Trees has wandered off, somewhere, but I seem to remember that it mentions that males of Extatasoma tiaratum, another Australian faculative parthenogenetic stick, are short lived, "especially when you need them", so I assume (correct me if I am wrong) that breeders like to induce sexual reproduction when they can.

 

[Orin]

The specific instance to which I was referring was...

I agree that males often make a culture stronger, but you said you had to introduce a male after a few generations of reproduction without males. They'll actually keep going at the same rate (weak or strong) for generations without number. They don't lose or gain genetic material.

 

[PhilinYuma]

I agree that males often make a culture stronger, but you said you had to introduce a male after a few generations of reproduction without males. They'll actually keep going at the same rate (weak or strong) for generations without number. They don't lose or gain genetic material.

I agree that I should have said "a number of generations" rather than "a few". As you know, though, small captive colonies tend to be heir to calamities not common in nature. A good example is genetic drift, which mathematically should favour an exotic phenotype as much as causing "reversion to type," but as tropical fish breeders know, it is the latter that always seems to win out. Theoretically, as you say, genetic material should not change from one generation to the next in apomictic parthenogenesis, but in fact, a number of factors, such as DNA transcription errors, can cause changes in the genetic material, and two of the natural defenses against such mutations, diploidy* and the presence and a large population of individuals, are absent in small captive populations of parthenogenetic phasmids, and mutations tend to kill or weaken the individual rather than strengthen or improve it.

I know of no studies, perhaps you do, that have compared sexual and haploid parthenogenetic reproduction in a given species of sticks, but again, as you say, where males are present in nature, it seems to be a good idea to use them, and by extension, I would expect a captive culture of Miomantis paykullii to benefit in the same way.

Addendum *Oh dear. I'm reaching the limits of my knowledge of this aspect of genetics. There are a cuppla mechanisms by which apomictic eggs can be diploid (e.g. missing the reduction division stage or doubling the number of chromosomes), but they are always homogametic (X or XX) and therefor homozygotic since the genetic material comes only from the female. I don't know whether the "heterozygote superiority hypothesis" is still in vogue, but if so, it argues that a homzygous/homogametic eggs are more likely to carry mutations. If anyone can modify or correct this on the basis of more complete knowledge, I shall be interested to learn.

 

[massaman]

Well I heard there is even rare cases of ghosts hatching from unfertilized ooths and dont know if anyone witnessed this or not but read this on a different forum and what not!

Ghost parthenogenesis

 

[yen_saw]

.........has anyone ever raised this species parthogenetically to the third generation? (i.e. raised the babies from unmated ooths to adulthood & let them lay unfertilized ooths, which then hatched, etc.)

Also, can anyone tell me of other species that are parthogenetic (definitely)? I know about Brunner's, but I believe I've also heard of other species...like, Rhombodera? ....

Thanks!

Two species have shown the ability to reproduce asexually from my breeding experience.

For the A. multicolor, unmated ootheca hatched about 5-15 nymphs, all grown up to be female. Each produced unmated ootheca but only half of the females - originally hatched asexually - were able to reproduce ootheca that hatch. Hatching rate was rather poor, ranging from 1-8 nymphs, with heavy casualty, and the survival grown up to be all females and later terminated (by freezing) before laying ootheca. Actually one female was able to mate with an adult male but she was unable to produce any ootheca and die shortly after.

For the Miomantis paykullii, an unmated female produced numerous oothecae that hatched 10-20 nymphs (as compared to normal hatching rate of 60-80nymphs from each ootheca). About 50% survive to adult stage (all females) and each produced unmated oothecae which appear to have similar hatching rate of about 10-20 nymphs, periodically instead of all out type hatching. However, few females which mated with male eventually produce normal hatching rate consist of both sexes.

 

[dgerndt]

Just going to throw in an observation I made with my parthenogenetic nymphs! The female that laid the ooths that hatched was straw colored, but one of the nymphs that hatched is now turning green. Is that a change in DNA?

 

[GreenOasis]

Two species have shown the ability to reproduce asexually from my breeding experience.

For the A. multicolor, unmated ootheca hatched about 5-15 nymphs, all grown up to be female. Each produced unmated ootheca but only half of the females - originally hatched asexually - were able to reproduce ootheca that hatch. Hatching rate was rather poor, ranging from 1-8 nymphs, with heavy casualty, and the survival grown up to be all females and later terminated (by freezing) before laying ootheca. Actually one female was able to mate with an adult male but she was unable to produce any ootheca and die shortly after.

For the Miomantis paykullii, an unmated female produced numerous oothecae that hatched 10-20 nymphs (as compared to normal hatching rate of 60-80nymphs from each ootheca). About 50% survive to adult stage (all females) and each produced unmated oothecae which appear to have similar hatching rate of about 10-20 nymphs, periodically instead of all out type hatching. However, few females which mated with male eventually produce normal hatching rate consist of both sexes.

Thanks so much for the input, Yen! That helps with my questions.

I now have a second ooth (from the same unmated Miomantis female) hatching out. So far, I have counted 11 or 12 nymphs from that one. The nymphs from the first ooth that hatched are able to eat D. melanogasters okay...even though the prey seems really large for them. I've been very careful misting, as they are so tiny, I'm afraid I'll drown one. Just one or two shots with an ultrafine mist is all I do!

 

[sporeworld]

Phil, you forgot to mention Iris oratoria also reproduces through parthogenesis. Not constantly, as there are males in the species, but they are known to do it.

Yup! I got an L3 or L4 wild caught Iris, that grew up alone, matured, laid an ooth and died. I just left the ooth as decoration, and sure enough - pop! Nymphs! I don't remember how many, but they were all healthy and and I let them go outside a few weeks later.

 

[yen_saw]

Thanks so much for the input, Yen! That helps with my questions.

I now have a second ooth (from the same unmated Miomantis female) hatching out. So far, I have counted 11 or 12 nymphs from that one. The nymphs from the first ooth that hatched are able to eat D. melanogasters okay...even though the prey seems really large for them. I've been very careful misting, as they are so tiny, I'm afraid I'll drown one. Just one or two shots with an ultrafine mist is all I do!

You're welcome. Obviously I have forgotten about B. borealis too since I have accustom to them breeding asexually. THere are definitely more species that are able to reproduce this way, but rarely. Phil has covered most of that previously so I will not repeat here.