determining an instar

With the exception of the Ghost ooth I had hatch recently, all of my mantids were purchased as nymphs. While my Orchids were sold as L2/L3, none of them were individually labeled with their current instar. I worked off of the assumption they were L3 upon arrival, but I have had one male molt to adult in his 1st molt in my possession, so they can't all be L3. I also assumed they are from the same hatch and hence a similar age, but that may not be the case, either.

I've google searched to no avail, trying to find a pictorial guide showing a photo of Orchid nymphs in each instar to learn to determine it based on visual cues. No one seems to be documenting this and also sharing the info. Perhaps there is little visual difference in the instars between L3 and adult, and that is why I can't find any info on the subject 

I read that male Orchids can skip a molt sometimes when kept at cooler temperatures and molt to adult early, but again, I have no way of being sure how old any of them were on arrival. 

My hope was to breed them, so I have been trying to slow down my males and speed up my females, as I have read about in the care sheets. It seems to be working, and my males aren't molting as frequently as my females. This could also be because the males are preparing for a final molt. It becomes more of a challenge when I have no clue where any of them truly are in their life cycle. I have tried to make an educated guess based on the data, but i wondered if there was a trick to it, or a way to tell outside of what I've already done (or asking the breeder, which i haven't tried admittedly, as I figure if they weren't labeled upon arrival then the breeder wouldn't be able to help me). Obviously, time will answer these questions, and when I see them with wings, I'll definitely know they are adults, lol. If none of my males are alive when my females mature, I can source more males as adults to still attempt breeding, but I would love to know for sure just how much of a gap I need to close, or if any of my males stand a chance at love ❤ Ultimately, I just want to learn all I can and be the best Orchid mommy I can be! 

I've seen a pictorial guide to the instars for Ghosts, which I am going to try to use to determine if my Ghost nymphs are L5 or L4. Ghosts seem to have definite difference in appearance throughout the instars, which Orchids do not necessarily. Does anything like this exist for Orchids? Is there any way to tell? Any advice would be appreciated

I don’t have any personal experience breeding or raising orchids, so you might want to wait until someone else comes in, but according to this, trying to slow down your male’s growth may cause them to “end up smaller than a normal male,” and “will most likely be infertile...”

If this is true, I’d say for breeding, it might work to sell your males and save the money to buy fresh adults when your females reach maturity, or trade for younger specimens whose instars can be guaranteed.

As for determining instars, size may help to some degree, but as said above, it’s not consistent enough to be sure. As far as I’m aware, the only way to be 100% certain of a mantid’s instar is to track it from hatching, which, in this case, cannot be done. You could always ask the breeder about the male that matured to early, though.

River Dane said:

...but according to this, trying to slow down your male’s growth may cause them to “end up smaller than a normal male,” and “will most likely be infertile...”

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Dang, I somehow missed this. Thanks for the link. I read somewhere else that the cooler temps can cause them to molt to adult early, but hadn't heard of this causing infertility. Well, no point in keeping them cool or slowing the feedings, as it would seem counterproductive. Most people who are having success breeding and caring for Orchids seem hesitant to share their experience. Maybe it is a lack of finding the right sources on my part, or maybe those who do succeed don't want to give up the edge they found by sharing their secrets. If everybody knows how to breed Orchids, they aren't as monetarily valuable to those who do so. Heck, maybe it's such an obscure hobby that there just isn't enough data out there to find. I'm committed to it, either way. I love my Orchids and I wanna help there be more of them in the world.

River Dane said:

You could always ask the breeder about the male that matured to early, though.

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I may, but I received him in a 5 pack of nymphs, none of which have molted to adult. Of the other males i received with him, 1 hasn't molted at all, 2 have molted once, and 1 has molted twice. I'm guessing they won't be able to shed any light on the situation. It is most likely that he molted early to adult due to the conditions.

I still hold out hope that one or two of my males will be around when my females mature. If not, that's cool too, I'll just find some more nymphs or adult males and try that way.

Now I'm concerned that the aproximate month of 'cool weather' the males have received will have already rendered them useless for mating purposes. They've been between 70 and 72 degrees.

Charlie, my adult male, is in the warm zone with the females now. I figured there was no point in cooling him down considering he most likely won't live to see an adult female. He looks longingly through his enclosure at Ingrid, though ??

Update: I decided to move my male enclosures to a warmer room of the house to be safe. They are in the same room as my female Orchids and Ghosts now. The ambient temp there is usually 75ish, lowest being 73 and warmest being around 79. My Ghosts typically stay around 75 in this room with no heat added, so at least the males are a few degrees warmer just in case. 

I asked mantiskingdom (the source of the link) on IG and he said 70-72 was okay, but I don't wanna potentially waste my time breeding and incubating an infertile ooth, so the boys are upstairs now! Chances are none of them will live to see an adult female, but you never know unless you try

If you do manage to breed some, you should totally catalog the instars! The more data out there the better. I feel like if there is knowledge about something that increases a living things chances of life, it should be out there for the sake of said living thing!

Itsdelliott said:

If you do manage to breed some, you should totally catalog the instars! The more data out there the better. I feel like if there is knowledge about something that increases a living things chances of life, it should be out there for the sake of said living thing!

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I agree! Orchids aren't as difficult to care for as people make them out to be. Breeding is a challenge, due to the different maturation rates and propensity to canabalism, but in general there is little info out there other than very basic care. I think if it helps people keep Mantises alive and further the hobby, then it should be shared. 

Also a good site for information is https://www.keepinginsects.com/praying-mantis/ as they have a general page for mantids but also a lot of species specific pages of the most commonly kept mantises

River Dane said:

I don’t have any personal experience breeding or raising orchids, so you might want to wait until someone else comes in, but according to this, trying to slow down your male’s growth may cause them to “end up smaller than a normal male,” and “will most likely be infertile...”

If this is true, I’d say for breeding, it might work to sell your males and save the money to buy fresh adults when your females reach maturity, or trade for younger specimens whose instars can be guaranteed.

As for determining instars, size may help to some degree, but as said above, it’s not consistent enough to be sure. As far as I’m aware, the only way to be 100% certain of a mantid’s instar is to track it from hatching, which, in this case, cannot be done. You could always ask the breeder about the male that matured to early, though.

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forgot to quote you so you saw the post faster

I learned a lot from that website before I found the forum. It has some really detailed information.

- MantisGirl13

Thanks for the reference @Ziiggy's Insectarium! I’ve been referring to their caresheets for a while, so I’m glad to know it’s circulating.

Yes, thank you for sharing info. I've definitely referenced Keeping Insects care sheets; loads of good info there 

As to my original reason for posting...It appears there aren't any photo documentation specifically of Orchids throughout their instars, and from my experience so far, the main difference seems to be size. Oh well, I'll just document it myself and see if I find any differences ?

The main problem I'm finding now is most care sheets tell you to cool the males and feed them less. The link above takes you to Mantid Kingdom's website, where he states this tactic will render your males infertile. However, On the Mantid Kingdom Orchid care sheet it directly tells you to cool the males and feed them less ?

I've also read other accounts (found searching this forum and google) of early molts to adult by males from keeping them cooler. Yet every single care sheet tells you to do this. So...who is right? Idk... 

I am going to experiment. I will try to keep my males slightly cooler while still within the acceptable Orchid mantis temp range (72ish). Seems like that would be okay. If any live to see an adult female, I will mate them with a selected female. I will also source unrelated males and mate them with a different female. We will see which ooth hatch, or don't, and measure the results. This way, I will find out for myself what is true

If you keep the mantids cooler and feed them less they will grow slower. Please let us know how your experiment turns out!

- MantisGirl13

Well, so far I've had 3 of my males molt to adult in the last 3 days. 2 of these guys hadn't molted at all in my possession until now. They were sold to me as L3. I don't know how old they were for sure, but they are adults now! 

I have more nymphs on the way so that I can have males to breed with my females, because it would seem time is against me with my current lot of males. 

Im proud of them for making it to adult, but bummed they wont live to see an adult female. They are still super cute! I'll get some photos and add them to my photo album thread. 

Congratulations on the molts, but it is sad that they won't get to mate.

- MantisGirl13

MantisGirl13 said:

Congratulations on the molts, but it is sad that they won't get to mate.

- MantisGirl13

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I'm thinking of offering them up for trade so they can have a chance at breeding, but I also love them and want to keep them lol. What's a girl to do??? ?

Graceface said:

I'm thinking of offering them up for trade so they can have a chance at breeding, but I also love them and want to keep them lol. What's a girl to do??? ?

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Lol ? I would have the same problem if I were in your shoes! 

- MantisGirl13

If you love your males, keep them i should say. I never tried orchids yet, because they are hard to raise, maybe i try in the future. For now i am keeping mantids I can have at room temperature.

Little Mantis said:

If you love your males, keep them i should say. I never tried orchids yet, because they are hard to raise, maybe i try in the future. For now i am keeping mantids I can have at room temperature.

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I must say, Orchids aren't as difficult as people make them out to be. Aside from the temp and humidity requirements, I find them pretty easy to care for. They are good eaters, attentive and curious, and beautiful too! I set them up with a heat mat and humidifier on controllers, so that could be a downside for those who don't have the gear or money for the gear (which I feel is required to ensure the appropriate conditions are met consistently).