Pairing Siblings?

[crucis]

Hi everyone, will there be any undesirable side effects if ootheca-siblings mate? Since nature times it such that females mature after the males (and the vast majority of siblings won't live to get their wings anyway), I'm guessing it probably isn't recommended; but what if there aren't any alternatives from other lineages? Has anyone encountered anything clearly detrimental about it?

I'm pretty new to mantids, just want to be sure about this because I might run into this problem.. Thanks for any help!

 

[Termite48]

I think that it is nature's way to see that this does not happen easily. The natural dispersal of the insects from the hatching would almost make it impossible for it to happen that siblings mate. When they do mate in our breeding program, there is going to be a price to pay. The genes that are there with negative traits are going to compound by pairing in such a way as the outcome will not be favoring things like vigor, hatch count, etc. If I am off based, someone correct me, I am also a Mantid Newbie but well versed in genetics and biology and discussing this matter in a way to be understood by the person who is not a Biology nut, is a challenge.

 

[Mr.Mantid]

I have heard inbreeding in the insect world is not a big of deal as birds, reptiles or mammals, but don't take my word for it. It's something you might want to look into.

 

[psyconiko]

Hi everyone, will there be any undesirable side effects if ootheca-siblings mate? Since nature times it such that females mature after the males (and the vast majority of siblings won't live to get their wings anyway), I'm guessing it probably isn't recommended; but what if there aren't any alternatives from other lineages? Has anyone encountered anything clearly detrimental about it?

I'm pretty new to mantids, just want to be sure about this because I might run into this problem.. Thanks for any help!

I encountered some issues with parthogenesis,after the tenth(yes!!) unmated generation(Miomantis paykulii)

And I clearly got some akward and lame specimens after 4 generations of Tenodera sinensis from 3 wild caught oothes.they were smaller,live a very fast lifecycle and would make small oothes....

But these were my "first" mantis,and I may have been clumsy with them

 

[Rick]

It is fine. Most mantid breeders do it. I have interbred many generations with no ill effect. It would be difficult with some species to get a non related mantis every time you bred them. It is probably a good idea to get a fresh one after several generations in order to get some fresh genes.

 

[crucis]

Thanks alot for the info everyone! Hmmm... if I ever have to inbreed mantids, I'll try my best to get some new genes into the mix every other generation or two, just to be on the safe side (or at least keep a close eye on the family tree so I breed progressively distant cousins each time)

 

[crucis]

Btw, parthenogenesis is so cool! Fancy that - no more dud ooths! Amazing that those M. paykulii managed to last 10 generations without any males

 

[Rick]

Thanks alot for the info everyone! Hmmm... if I ever have to inbreed mantids, I'll try my best to get some new genes into the mix every other generation or two, just to be on the safe side (or at least keep a close eye on the family tree so I breed progressively distant cousins each time)

You will inbreed. I just can't see someone going through the trouble of either keeping two batches that are not related or sourcing a non related mantis for each breeding. LIke I said, I've done many generations with no issues but did generally get a fresh individual.

 

[MantidLord]

I agree with Rick, unless you go out and catch a mantis every now and then, you'll eventually have to inbreed. Of course depending on the species you keep, this may or may not be possible.

 

[Ntsees]

Yeah, like what some of the other forum members say, it's not that much of a problem (at least in my experience). My mantids are VERY inbred and they are still going strong today.

 

[crucis]

I agree with Rick, unless you go out and catch a mantis every now and then, you'll eventually have to inbreed. Of course depending on the species you keep, this may or may not be possible.

Yup you're right guys, i know i'll definitely have to inbreed (especially if i plan on keeping species that don't occur where i live). However, for now i'm rearing a genus that's pretty abundant here (in Singapore) so im lucky to have the option to source for new individuals once awhile.

No worries though, i won't raid the woods and pounce on every mantis i see B) Generally i get 1 or 2 instar nymphs from urban parks and release them in more rural areas once they get their wings. Since my charges eventually return to the wild (and i daresay their survival rate is considerably higher with me), i don't feel too guilty about what i'm doing. Still, I try my best to be responsible and not over-collect.

I haven't had much experience breeding though, but hope to do it regularly in future since i believe it's a favour i owe to the guys for detaining them so long. But (like Rick said) I'll prob end up keeping one batch of essentially related individuals, which i will 'refresh' with a new mantid whenever circumstances permit.

So relieved to hear that inbreeding isn't immediately detrimental. Thanks again for the input!