So this the one?!?! the 'elusive' Larger Florida mantis?

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Ryan Minard said:
I know you want to think it. I know it REALLY looks like one. I even asked Yen... he thinks it is floridensis, last time I checked. I've seen many carolina and they do NOT get this big... EVER! Not since I was 6, have I seen them this big... and regular carolina and floridensis are both down there... but these in betweeners are present... Also... I'll show you another picture... I am shocked that it's so big. I told my cousin it was carolina 'till I saw it in person... but look at the thorax and head:

See the "floridensis" and true floridensis together on the upper left hand corner? And see the carolinas to the right? It's weird.

Is a hybrid possible? It's not been proven wrong yet.

Just see how it is the same length as the floridensis to the left of it... and that floridensis is 69mm. What is wrong with it? Also see the 2 nice sized male floridensis in there. The carolinas were collected by me. They are all 48-60mm....
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Nice comparison between the supposed "floridensis", the true floridensis, and carolina. Since you have the wings opened for both the "floridensis" and carolina, have you checked with a microscope/magnifying glass to see if the wing veining on the forewing is the same/different? When I took entomology years ago, that's what the class used to identify insect species that looked similar and so it should apply for mantids.

As for my opinion on the identification, I think the "floridensis" is a large carolina. I do not use length and tend to use body formation and patterns for identification.

 
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Ntsees said:
Nice comparison between the supposed "floridensis", the true floridensis, and carolina. Since you have the wings opened for both the "floridensis" and carolina, have you checked with a microscope/magnifying glass to see if the wing veining on the forewing is the same/different? When I took entomology years ago, that's what the class used to identify insect species that looked similar and so it should apply for mantids.

As for my opinion on the identification, I think the "floridensis" is a large carolina. I do not use length and tend to use body formation and patterns for identification.
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But floridensis has different bodily proportions... And I am well aware of this.

That is why I posted this... I just have trouble believing this specimen to be any of the 2 species.

I really want someone to consider this... There has been more than 1 of these and it is really impossible for a true carolina to get this big. I know it sounds like pure exaggeration but just look a the size!! all specimens of this look have been 65-71mm. Kind of long, huh? Not quite as big as floridensis but bigger than carolina.

Just look at the tenodera sinensis (smaller specimen at about 90mm) below it!

I need yen to come look at these again.

This is not my specimen. I didn't believe it till I saw it in person. If I get the ooth, I will try and rear some of these and provide a few nymphs to curious forum members, if you guys are interested :) .

 
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How do you know it's "impossible"? Yen has created threads of his trips to Arizona I believe, and he had pictures of carolinas with unbelievable size variation. Perhaps these abnormally large ones are at the extremes of the variation? It's certainly possible given the history of this species having a lot of variation in size. I think the proper way would be to either (as Ntsees said) look at wing venation or better yet, analyze the genitalia. Until then, we can't be certain. I do think it's weird though. Heck, maybe it is a hybrid between the two species. Stagmomantis limbata and carolina have been produced hybrids before (I have proof if you want the article!!!) however the nymphs were weak and they died. Maybe carolina hooked up with floridensis.

 
Mime454 said:
If it is a hybrid, wouldn't that mean that it is very likely that the organisms will be sterile?
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Not true... many hybrids are perfectly healthy. It really depends. Usually they would be sterile though...

As for looking further into identification... I need to wait till I have this species myself. I am not the one WITH the specimens. I really hope to get ahold of this one. I noticed a few minor differences (in the thorax and a few other places) so I don't know about it being a freak carolina. Will need to look into it more in the coming months...

And MantidLord... PLEASE give me that article! I am REALLY interested. Would love to give it a read.

 
Biology of the bordered mantid, Stagmomantis limbata Hahn (Orthoptera, Mantidae). Annals of the Entomological Society of America,30(1), 96-109.

If you can't access the article on your own, send me your email address and I'll send the pdf.

 
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yen_saw said:
I had a business trip to Tampa Bay recently, due to the extra free time I had a chance driving up North to check out any bugs in the park. Mainly after Stagmomantis sp. About 40 minutes later I saw a park which look like a good place for bugs, and lo and behold there is this 'extra' long mantis at first glance I thought it was foreign (Florida is notorious for hosting foreign sp), later there were more and more found, some were found pariring up and it is definitely too 'long' to be a Carolina mantis. I brought back dozens of them and they seem to fit in the description of Stagmomantis floridensis based on http://entnemdept.ifas.ufl.edu/choate/mantid_key2_03.pdf

***************************************************************************

11. Larger (58mm or more); form more elongate, abdomen of female nearly parallel-sided, tegmina

narrower, reaching only middle of abdomen; stigmatic patch pale, inconspicuous, or obsolete ..........

................................................................................

.................................... Stagmomantis floridensis Davis

- Smaller (57mm or less); form less elongate, abdomen of female strongly widened at middle, tegmina

broad, reaching apical third of abdomen; stigmatic patch black, conspicuous (cover photo) ...........

................................................................................

............................. Stagmomantis carolina (Johannson)

****************************************************************************

sf3.jpg


sf2-1.jpg


sf1-1.jpg


They average in 7-8 cm. Elongated with narrow tegima compare to S. carolina.

This is how they compare to the S. carolina (from MO) adult females. I am not picking the extreme here this 'S. floridensis' is the average 7.5 cm. I would be surprise if they are the same species.

sfvssc3.jpg


sfvssc1.jpg


Some females starting to produce ootheca today, they appear to be narrower than the S. carolina and longer as well just like their elongated body.

sfooth.jpg


This is the ooth of S. carolina recently deposited as comparison.

scooth.jpg


The longest I got is close to 9 cm long!!! :blink:

sfaf2.jpg


So the question is, did I nail it? is this the 'elusive' Stagmomantis floridensis? How on earth this species is not in hobby, maybe they don't do well in captivity? i also have few brown specimens they are gorgeous! They are very active despite the long body shape and will jump from the edge of the container. This is definitely the longest Stagmomantis sp. I have ever seen, if this is not S. floridensis. I will bring a specimen to Texas A&M for identification. I have about 9 males but they drop like flies as of today and only 2 survive, females are doing much better as usual.
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Did they ever do well in captivity?
 
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