Another discussion about color

[Graceface]

Maybe mantids see what they're around and just hope for the best when it comes to changing their color and try to stay near what they remember from their last molt.  But then we would have to prove that mantids have a memory.  It gets complicated. 

Well, I've always wondered how they know to change and look more like a plant. I mean, obviously they evolved over many generations to mimic the things they do, but *how did they know to do that* ya know? I get that things evolve, but the step by step decisions behind that evolution boggle me

It does seem like a level of self awareness to notice your surroundings and mimic them. I imagine it is more of a observation, trial and error response. (If this, then this) The ones who perch in certain places get more food, so smart mantids would see that and change their behavior accordingly. 

My orchids do what I call posing, where they sit in a way that makes them look more like a flower, When I open their enclosures I always mist them and then give them food. When they are hungry, they will pose for me. If i mist them while they are in this position, they frequently pose harder, making themselves more flower-like. I presume they think the flower pose attracts the food better, and they 'pose' in this misty moment thinking it will increase their success because in the past they got food after doing so. They think this was an effective tactic, so they repeat it. Like, "Flies come after mist so I better look like a flower to attract those flies."

Color, color changes, and perch choices may be 'decisions' made along these lines rather than a conscious 'choice' using reason as we would

 

[MantisGirl13]

I like your profile pic, @Graceface! 

- MantisGirl13

 

[Graceface]

@MantisGirl13 Thanks! It's one of my Orchid females ? I kept forgetting to upload one to Gravatar

 

[ohaple]

Well, I've always wondered how they know to change and look more like a plant. I mean, obviously they evolved over many generations to mimic the things they do, but *how did they know to do that* ya know? I get that things evolve, but the step by step decisions behind that evolution boggle me

It does seem like a level of self awareness to notice your surroundings and mimic them. I imagine it is more of a observation, trial and error response. (If this, then this) The ones who perch in certain places get more food, so smart mantids would see that and change their behavior accordingly. 

My orchids do what I call posing, where they sit in a way that makes them look more like a flower, When I open their enclosures I always mist them and then give them food. When they are hungry, they will pose for me. If i mist them while they are in this position, they frequently pose harder, making themselves more flower-like. I presume they think the flower pose attracts the food better, and they 'pose' in this misty moment thinking it will increase their success because in the past they got food after doing so. They think this was an effective tactic, so they repeat it. Like, "Flies come after mist so I better look like a flower to attract those flies."

Color, color changes, and perch choices may be 'decisions' made along these lines rather than a conscious 'choice' using reason as we would

Generally, evolution of insects is not choice or intelligence based. It is typically through genetic variation and survival of the fittest. Randomly, genetics might cause colors to be different between offspring of the same parents. Then the young go on to try to live their lives. The ones with the most advantageous color live, while the others don't. Over many generations, this can change the way the entire population looks. The same is true of many behavioral traits. I don't believe they have the intelligence or perception to think about how they might actually look to a bird or pollinator. This article gives a good overview of how this can work very quickly in insects when color is so important for camoflage: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2013/10/09/evolution-in-color-from-peppered-moths-to-walking-sticks/?user.testname=none

 

[bugboymark]

Great topic. I've been trying to test and figure that out with mantises for years...but haven't come up with any rock-solid conclusions...just a bunch of observations and theories.  On a related note, I find it really funny that the only coloration experiment where I can pretty accurately predict results is in the chrysalis coloration of Black Swallowtails.  Since we're talking about things that really can't see like mantises (caterpillars), there has to be something about how they sense different wavelengths of light at a critical time.  If they are surrounded by green leaves/stems before they pupate, the chrysalis is green.  If there is hardly any green around (like bigger brown stems and sticks)...you get a brown chrysalis. It makes sense.  Coloration blends in with surroundings. And depending on what they choose to pupate on, the logic works almost every time.  I'm sure there's a scientific explanation out there, but I find it strange that it works so consistently with a larvae phase with little more than the ability to detect shadows and some movement right next to it. So maybe it's not what the insect "sees" at all.  Here's a couple photos...

And...

 

[minomantis]

@ohaple I agree with you!

I do think that there is a level that the general surroundings do play.

How I think about it is if a mantis is in a green patch, it will be green because I think there is a basic function in their brain that tells them it is surrounded by green and they should turn green and the same from brown.  I feel though when we raise mantids we surround them with colors that they aren't typically around ( whites or colors of random household items) so then their genes take over and they express something that may just resemble "neutral" colors or whatever their parents were.

Going back to Chinese mantids, the ones I find near my house are usually green all the way up until their final molt and then they usually turn brown and that's because the previous generations before them have survived on this color adaptation so "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" there's no need to change (lots of growth in the spring dead brown leaves in fall, makes sense). 

Of course many variables go into a mantids color, but I do think there are very basic, heck even complex (I don't know lol) functions happening in their brain that aid in color change.  Maybe shades come from intensity of sun, color comes from what they see and humidity, pattern comes from genes.  So many options. lol

 

[MantisGirl13]

@bugboymark That is a really cool observation! 

- MantisGirl13

 

[ohaple]

Great topic. I've been trying to test and figure that out with mantises for years...but haven't come up with any rock-solid conclusions...just a bunch of observations and theories.  On a related note, I find it really funny that the only coloration experiment where I can pretty accurately predict results is in the chrysalis coloration of Black Swallowtails.  Since we're talking about things that really can't see like mantises (caterpillars), there has to be something about how they sense different wavelengths of light at a critical time.  If they are surrounded by green leaves/stems before they pupate, the chrysalis is green.  If there is hardly any green around (like bigger brown stems and sticks)...you get a brown chrysalis. It makes sense.  Coloration blends in with surroundings. And depending on what they choose to pupate on, the logic works almost every time.  I'm sure there's a scientific explanation out there, but I find it strange that it works so consistently with a larvae phase with little more than the ability to detect shadows and some movement right next to it. So maybe it's not what the insect "sees" at all.  Here's a couple photos...

Very cool! I wonder how much this is causation. I can also imagine an alternative hypothesis that the Swallowtail caterpillars with the "brown" gene might be programmed to seek brown places to pupate while the ones with the "green" gene might seek green areas to pupate. Either way it is a very cool operation of biology.

 

[bugboymark]

Hey ohaple.  I thought about that too! To test it, I intentionally designed the enclosure to only have one available color background per caterpillar.  One with all brown.  One with green stems and/or lots of green leaves.  So unless I just happened to correctly match the caterpillar predesign for pupa color...it seems pretty likely that they have some mechanism to match their pupa shell color to their surroundings.  I never even knew this was possible...pretty cool. I suppose I could still have it wrong though. I'm currently running a similar experiment on Luna moths.  A while back, I noticed that some of the caterpillars...right before they made a cocoon, would turn from bright green to really weird brown almost purple right before they pupated. It would happen in the space of an hour too! While others would stay almost entirely green right up to pupation. I wasn't sure why there would be a difference, as they were all raised in the same type of enclosures with the same types of food plant and stems.  What I noticed so far with the first few hatches...was that the brownish/purplish caterpillar phase have all been females when they emerged.  Maybe there's a link? Haven't seen it enough so I'll have to keep messing with it to find out!

But I do have the same thoughts about mantises all the time.  With the Chinese, it SEEMS like the majority of females tend to be brown by the time they hit adult phase.  Males too! Though the males have a tendency to have some weird mixes of color.  Brown/green combos.  Anyhow, I figured it was just because the females, as they get older...tend to be bigger and bit heavier. So maybe they molt farther into the grasses/shrubs the closer they get to adult.  Less light/green?  More thicker brown stems/branches?  Not sure.  Of course, the last couple years I've seen some of the BIGGEST greenest females I've seen in a long time (pic below).  Mixed right in the same outdoor cover with brown ones.  So in the end, what the heck do I know?...   (don't answer that!)  Maybe, like you said, some mantises are just programmed to end up one color over another, and there's very little the light/cover/humidity can do to influence that?.  Or maybe only by a matter of degrees.  At the end of the day, I figure I'll always have enough questions about this stuff in my head to keep me interested!  ?

 

[ohaple]

Good observations on the moths. I don't know how it operates in mantids either. The brown could also be due to the changing seasons, green leaves turning brown.