Bean Beetles as feeders

[ignatz]

I've been experimenting with "alternative" feeders, particularly since I've had very bad luck in the hot weather with getting viable fly pupae. One of the most successful have been bean beetles (Callosobruchus maculatus). They take longer to get "ramped up" than FFs, but if you can be a bit patient I've found them to be pretty much bombproof...basically, just add the starter culture to a containers of of black eyed peas, add a bit of egg crate on the top for collection of the adult beetles and just feed them out. They will keep cranking all through the winter so long as you keep replacing used up beans and starting new cultures regularly.

My question is this: has anybody seen a nutritional analysis of this species, or heard of any problems with feeding them regularly to nymphs

I'm also experimenting with grain moths, otherwise known as Indian mealmoth (Plodia interpunctella) and will report After I experiment with them a bit more. Similar question here: anybody used these, or know anything about their nutritional analysis?

I guess that you could ask, why bother...but I'm convinced that many species that are considered difficult have specific nutritional requirements that are not met by ffs or other common feeder insects. Just a hunch, and would be interested in what other people think about this topic generally.

 

[CosbyArt]

@ignatz Hello and welcome to the forum officially, as it is your first post.

Nutritional analysis is something I haven't been able to find on many things in our hobby. A Google search turns up sites that tend to be selling cricket "flour", health/fitness goods, and related merchandise and have no references to their data. One such site lists mealworm and cricket nutritional analysis (their analysis image), but in the text above the image it says chicken eggs come from a chicken's butt so I don't put much faith into what is found.

Personally I have wanted to try C. maculatus but never have gotten around to it yet. I do know they are a popular feeder for many frogs, lizards, and related pets. For feeding mantids that is something that would have to be tested really as I haven't heard of them being feed to mantids. I know many beetles can be poisonous, their shells are just too tough, or the mantids just do not like the taste of them - so I'd like to hear if you tried feeding them to mantids yet.

One site that may have some information you want is BeanBeetles.org, but most of it is aimed at university students to preform lab tests and doesn't seem to show results/data. Culturing and other tricks for them though I have seen at BeanBeetles, Dendroboard post, and another here to name a few.

Yes, P.  interpunctella has been used by some mantid keepers before, see post. They are of course such a invasive pest that a single escaped moth can lead to a infestation, so most keepers will not culture them. Personally I have cultured another moth the waxworms (Achroia grisella), my post here, and they are easy to keep going. The only issue with A. grisella is they tend to be for large mantid nymphs or adults.

The Black Soldier Fly (Hermetia illucens) is one that has been doing great for Teamonger. She has done a project post about them, and recently made a smaller setup too with great results. Also she made a caresheet post that includes some nutritional data about them as well.

Another feeder you can try is the Milkweed bug (Oncopeltus fasciatus), my post here, and you'll see a few others have tried the feeder before too. If wild caught though the species will need to be raised several generations to ensure they are no longer toxic to mantids.

About the topic of other feeders I think it is a great idea, and something I've played around with myself. I put together a list of various possible feeders, and ones that were tried by myself or others - see below, but needs to be updated eventually.

Known to be ate by mantids
-------------------------------------------
Bees (Various)
Black Soldier Fly (Hermetia illucens) as flies
Blue Bottle/Blow Flies (Calliphora vomitoria)
Brine shrimp (Artemia Sp.)
Butterflies (Various)
Butterworm (Chilecomadia moorei) as moths
Camel/Cave Crickets (Rhaphidophoridae Sp.)
Cicadas (Cicadidae Sp.)
Crane flies (Tipulidae Sp.)
Field Cricket (Gryllinae Sp.)
Fruit Flies (Drosophila melanogaster and Drosophila hydei)
Grasshoppers (Caelifera Sp.)
Green Bottle Flies (Calliphoridae Sp.)
House Cricket (Acheta domesticus)
Houseflies (Musca domestica)
Hoverfly (Syrphidae Sp.)
Indian/Pantry Mealmoth (Plodia interpunctella) as moths
Katydids (Tettigoniidae Sp.)
Lacewings (Chrysopidae Sp.)
Mayflies (Ephemeroptera Sp.)
Mosquito (Culicidae Sp.)
Moths (Various)
Phorid flies (Phoridae Sp.)
Roaches (Various)
Silkmoth (Bombyx mori)
Spiders (Various)
Springtails (Collembola Sp.)
Waxworms (Achroia grisella and Galleria mellonella) as moths

Unknown or not a popular mantid ate feeder
-------------------------------------------
Bean Beetle (Epilachna varivestis)
Beetles (Various)
Black Soldier Fly (Hermetia illucens) as larva
Butterworm (Chilecomadia moorei) as larva
Firebrat (Thermobia domestica)
Grain Beetle (Oryzaephilus surinamensis)
Indian/Pantry Mealmoth (Plodia interpunctella) as larva
Isopods (Isopoda Sp.)
Ladybugs (Coccinellidae Sp.)
Mealworms (Tenebrio molitor) as larva or beetles
Rice Flour Beetles (Tribolium confusum)
Silverfish (Lepisma saccharina)
Stink Bugs (Pentatomidae Sp.)
Superworms (Zophobas morio) as larva or beetles
Waxworms (Achroia grisella and Galleria mellonella) as larva

 

[ignatz]

Brine shrimp? What?

My collection is more limited than I'd like it to be, after doing a bit more research I gave the bean beetles a shot. So far, they were a hit with my few L4 B. mendica. L4/5 P. paradoxa, accepted them, then spun them around almost Harlem Globetrotter style looking for a soft spot and then tossed them. G. gongylodes L3s were  more irritated by them than anything else but they ate a lot of ffs yesterday and are near molting. Probably anything oriented towards flying prey are not going to like them much, unfortunately, but I'll keep trying...it's a bummer because they're so easy to culture, but apparently the elytra is harder on these beetles than I thought.

I have to take a little bit of an issue with that list - I've been reading that silverfish, firebrats and other species in the Thysanura are essential for breeding certain rare and supposedly "difficult" species such as Mettalicus spp. and Eremiaphila spp. I suspect that people don't use them much because they vanish in an instant and are slow to culture...but for some forest floor or cavity dwelling mantids they might be an important food source. Anybody else try to culture these?

Yeah, the meal moths are pests, but I started my colony by trapping them with pheromone traps separated with a screen so they couldn't get to the sticky part, in my house, where the *&#! things are already present. They seem to be useful for finicky eaters that are freaked out by flies buzzing around in their 16oz containers.

Also had good results with silk moths for large, aggressive eaters. It'll be interesting to see if adult gongylodes can handle them.

 

[CosbyArt]

@ignatz Yes I've read before some keepers had luck with adult sized brine shrimp (Artemia Sp.) for small species at L1, offered without water to mantids in feeding dishes. Similar are the white tropical springtails (Collembola) that I used with the tiny Japanese boxer (Acromantis japonica) nymphs, and some picky Brunner's mantis (Brunneria borealis) at L1.

Thanks for the details, it is interesting to read the mixed mantid reaction to the bean beetles.

My list is based off of my own experiences with feeders, and what I have read from others. It needs some things added and changed around a bit, but useful for a starting point. When I do update it, I'll have to make a list of only species that can be cultured indoors too. Such a list might lead to other ideas of species to try and culture as feeders too.

Some keepers have kept the Sliverfish species before with varying degrees of success, typically easier than the warmer Firebrats. You can use the forum search function to find several posts about it. I know a few keepers who tried various "exotic/alternative" feeders are rarely on the forum as of late; although, if you find a post and want to talk to a inactive member I've had some luck communicating in private messages to get a response.

Sounds like a good way to use the meal moths you had, and a great method to trap them. Mantids do love moths, and I haven't had mantid yet that refused a appropriate sized moth.

 

[Orin]

@ignatz Yes I've read before some keepers had luck with adult sized brine shrimp (Artemia Sp.) for small species at L1, offered without water to mantids in feeding dishes.

Adult brine shrimp are as big or bigger than most L1 mantids, maybe you mean hatchling brine shrimp? I would bet this idea has not worked since brine shrimp have little ability to move without water.

 

[ignatz]

Adult brine shrimp are as big or bigger than most L1 mantids, maybe you mean hatchling brine shrimp? I would bet this idea has not worked since brine shrimp have little ability to move without water.

Orin - I don't know - it was on the list...sounds like nonsense to me, having raised these for fish and caudate food for years. the list isn't mine...

 

[CosbyArt]

Adult brine shrimp are as big or bigger than most L1 mantids, maybe you mean hatchling brine shrimp? I would bet this idea has not worked since brine shrimp have little ability to move without water.

Indeed I agree, as I've kept colonies of the "Sea Monkeys" as a kid, and likely is what the original message meant the smaller sized shrimp. If so then the original poster was referring to feeding the adults to larger mantid nymphs once they outgrew the smaller shrimp.

The water puzzled me as well, I would assume they would be fed in shallow water like I've seen for goldfish in this video. Separating the shrimp from all water would involve more work anyway and doubtful as most try to keep things easy as possible. In such a event they would pour out excess water (perhaps in the substrate), and pour out the shrimp and remaining water into a feeding dish.

Overall it was just a post/article I read and added to my list, personally I haven't tried it myself; however, after the hubbub about it I think I should.

Orin - I don't know - it was on the list...sounds like nonsense to me, having raised these for fish and caudate food for years. the list isn't mine...

No worries, anyone reading the topic understands you haven't added my list of feeders in this topic, and why Orin replied to my post too. Best of luck with your cultures and hopefully your get more interest in the original topic itself.

 

[ignatz]

I will note that the B. mendica are looking pretty fat and happy since starting on the bean beetles, finished off quite a few of them...this after they were looking a bit weak on fruit flies. Perhaps this bears further investigation. I would imagine that dryland species are going to be less hung up on flying insects and more oriented towards eating beetles and tougher prey.