black raptorial
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i'd remove it or else the infection will spread and kill him
Yes, I know its hard, but agent A is right. This infection occasionally happens, and its like frostbite in that it slowly spreads across the mantis itself. I would definetly amputate quickly. the mantis ay be able to regrow it over a few molts.
AND some peeps will say (probably rick
"oh if it's a problem the mantis will bite it off"
typically i have seen mantises dont have that capacity and i dont think they'd bite off their whole raptoral leg, and if they do it's typically too late, i had a creo male bite off 2 legs but he still died of an infection the next day
if the black spreads it's a bad sign
on the other hand my idolo has a black spot on her antenna that's been there for weeks without causing any problem and she is abt to molt to adult
oh and additionally, if u r gonna remove the raptoral, i would tear it out instead of cutting it
HERE'S WHY:
if u just cut it, there could still be necrotic tissue under the thorax since the claw was rooted into the thoraxic muscles
theoretically, the necrotic stuff will be different structure than healthy tissue, so they will probably easily separate from the healthy tissue
it's like a plant, if a part dies, u can easily pull the whole dead part off the healthy, live parts
that's just my thought
then i'd cover the area with a liquid bandage to prevent too much hemolymph loss
a few years ago we caught a mantis that was pecked by a bird in the abdomen and we covered the wound with liquid bandage and he molted and survived just fine
HERE'S WHY:
if u just cut it, there could still be necrotic tissue under the thorax since the claw was rooted into the thoraxic muscles
theoretically, the necrotic stuff will be different structure than healthy tissue, so they will probably easily separate from the healthy tissue
it's like a plant, if a part dies, u can easily pull the whole dead part off the healthy, live parts
that's just my thought
then i'd cover the area with a liquid bandage to prevent too much hemolymph loss
a few years ago we caught a mantis that was pecked by a bird in the abdomen and we covered the wound with liquid bandage and he molted and survived just fine
wrenae
Active member
Thank you all. I removed the limb. Alex was already pretty lethargic, and I think that there is a black spot on his back where the raptorial joined, so we are quite worried about him. He is still taking a bit of honey. This morning he had himself propped over the artificial plant in his habitat, so that he was in a nicely upright position. I returned him to that spot, and he positioned himself again, this time he kind of propped himself up with his other raptorial. He doesn't seem to be visually tracking anything. Really just conserving energy.
Is there anything else that we can do to help him?
Is there anything else that we can do to help him?
MandellaMandy123
Well-known member
Well, I hope he's okay, but unfortunately it's not sounding good. The fact that there's still a black spot on him means the infection had spread before you ripped off the arm. I'm really sorry to hear this happened to your mantid. 
MandellaMandy123
Well-known member
Oh, I'm so so so so sorry to hear that I was really hoping for him. Poor little Alex...
I was really hoping for him. Poor little Alex...
Precarious
Well-known member
Well I hope you didn't rip his arm off as agent A, who hasn't even been keeping mantids long, suggested. I don't even want to know why he suggested something so ignorant and cruel. After hearing that I don't think I can sell to him again.
In most cases if an entire limb died there is not much hope. For an issue that extensive the problem is too deep in its system to remove. Amputation will only weaken the mantis and open a pathway to additional infection. Better to just let nature take its course.
If, however, you notice a foot or tip of a raptor gone black removal can save the mantid's life. I had to do this last generation to my Orchid females. They are prone to fungal infection. Luckily they usually start on the very tips of the limbs. Very easy to snip it off with a small sharp scissors and they do quite well even if missing several tips.
And never try to remove a limb if there is no way for the mantid to reach its mouth to the wound for cleaning. That is pretty much a death sentence.
In most cases if an entire limb died there is not much hope. For an issue that extensive the problem is too deep in its system to remove. Amputation will only weaken the mantis and open a pathway to additional infection. Better to just let nature take its course.
If, however, you notice a foot or tip of a raptor gone black removal can save the mantid's life. I had to do this last generation to my Orchid females. They are prone to fungal infection. Luckily they usually start on the very tips of the limbs. Very easy to snip it off with a small sharp scissors and they do quite well even if missing several tips.
And never try to remove a limb if there is no way for the mantid to reach its mouth to the wound for cleaning. That is pretty much a death sentence.
ok i have been rearing since 2006, and if the mantis is gonna die of an infection anyways, it's best to try something and if it works, guess wat? he's found something the whole forum can use for future reference
they cant feel pain so it isnt too cruel, and u can use a liquid bandage or something to cover it
i had a theory based on observation of similar processes and merely suggested it as a last ditch attempt to save a clearly doomed mantis
very rarely do i see infections like this but they r always deadly no matter what so maybe a test like this isnt practical but it was worth the input :mellow:
Precarious
Well-known member
Bad advice all the way around. As if ripping off a limb will magically tear out the root of the problem. A mantis is not a plant.
Sorry, all I see in my head is you sitting in your room pulling the arm of an already sick and suffering mantis. Not cool. End of story. You can rationalize it however you like but that only works in your own head.
read above
rick didnt seem to object to my idea
he posted right after me and didnt say anything against my suggestion, and rick is the kind of guy who would do that if it was wrong
i would never intentionally harm an animal but sometimes desparate times call for drastic measures and while I would freeze a mantis if it were THAT sick, the person who had the unhealthy mantis clearly wanted to save it rather than accept that there is nothing that can be done but to just end its suffering right then and there
Precarious
Well-known member
All Rick said is that he's removed a limb. You are talking about ripping the limb out as opposed to snipping it off cleanly.
I have no concern over what Rick did or didn't say. My reactions are not influenced by what anybody else feels about a given subject. You are rationalizing again. That makes it OK for you inside your own head. "Well, Rick didn't say it was bad so that means he agrees with me." Doesn't matter to me even if he and everybody else on this forum actually did agreed with you. It doesn't translate into my reality. In my reality there is no situation in which ripping off a mantid's arm is acceptable.
Krissim Klaw
Well-known member
I've had older mantises sometimes have some die off and blackening to tips of feet and occasionally claws. I have never done anything for it and never witnessed any spreading. Is there a way to tell if the blackening is even an infection of some sort that needs to be tended to?I would hate to hurt a mantis but on the subject of cutting verses pulling a limb my instincts would make me think that pulling might be safer for the mantis in the long run because the limb would come off at one of the joints. Insect limbs to a certain extent are designed to break off in an attack. Pop off a limb to the predator, but save your life sort of design. I would wonder if the limb would have a better chance at the blood naturally closing off than it would with a unnaturally surgical cut somewhere the limb would not normally break?
I don't think I would be able to remove a limb unless someone could assure me it was the only way to save their life and would indeed save the life. Naturally we don't really have this. No mantis vets or intensive tests that can rule out something already having attacked the main part of the body. One of the biggest scares I had with one of my mantises was in my early days when one of mine got her claw caught in the metal screen of a cage. I thought she was going to twist/rip her entire arm off in her panic to get free. Thankfully I was able to push the tip through and she was fine. That is the last time I housed any of my mantises in an enclosure with metal screen. =(
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Precarious
Well-known member
I've only ever had to do this with Orchids. It is a known danger they are susceptible to fungal infection. It starts on the very ends of the extremities and will spread and kill them unless removed. I keep very close track of mine so I spotted it early and only had to remove the very tip of the finger-like appendage that extends from the end of the raptor and the foot of another. It was a very simple procedure.
Pulling off a limb is a ridiculous idea to even contemplate. I don't think you have fully thought this through. First of all you have no control over how much will be removed. Second, you risk damaging the mantid in ways you can't even predict because you would have to hold the body with one hand while you pull with the other. Just picturing that in my head is disturbing. It's not going to come off having a tug of war with it and it's not going to just sit still while you pull its body apart. What's more it would be traumatic. Whereas cutting the tip of a limb is very fast and the mantis doesn't even react.
I would never suggest this if you see an entire limb turn black. It's way too late by that point. That means the body is dying. It's an indication of the much bigger problem that is not limited to the limb. The limb is only a symptom so removal is not a cure. I have seen it happen and it's an indication the body is shutting down. An infection will start small and spread. So if one day an entire limb is suddenly black you are not dealing with an infection.
I agree with Rick that sometimes a limb will go limp and the mantis will remove it. That is something different than it turning black, which is indicative of necrosis.
sinensispsyched
Well-known member
Yes, I have also seen mantids remove legs.
My fist mantis had a mismolt, which ruined the grippy thing at the end of his foot. His leg was also slightly bent, and he was unable to climb very well. However, he eventually bit his entire lower (back leg, FYI) leg off, right below the joint. Due to that, his nickname became Pegleg.
My fist mantis had a mismolt, which ruined the grippy thing at the end of his foot. His leg was also slightly bent, and he was unable to climb very well. However, he eventually bit his entire lower (back leg, FYI) leg off, right below the joint. Due to that, his nickname became Pegleg.
