Buying ooths

[Katnapper]

I realize there are no inherent guarantees that any particular ooth will hatch. And usually individual breeders/sellers do not advertise a guarantee of fertility when selling ooths. But what are the usual and recommended actions to take when this situation comes up?

When this has happened to me, I've contacted the seller about it and asked what (if anything) we could do about it to reach an agreeable resolution to the deal. With one dealer I have an agreement to receive some mantids/ooths in the future to replace or make up for the loss... and I believe he will make good on the promise.

But I have another situation that I'm wondering about. I purchased and paid for 2 Ghost ooths on January 16, 2009. They were promptly shipped, but they never hatched. On March 18, 2009 I sent both a PM and a duplicate email to the seller asking about possible remedy:

The 2 P. paradoxa ooths I purchased from you in January have not hatched, and at this point I don't believe they ever will. Here are the details of the transaction:$40.00 for 2 Ghost ooths + $10.00 shipping + 5.00 for heat pack = $55.00 paid by PayPal on Jan. 16, 2009 to xxxxxxx.

I'm guessing they were not indeed fertile. I do understand there is intrinsic uncertainty in buying ooths, but feel a refund or some sort of compensation would be appropriate. Can you please get back to me about it? Thank you.

Having received no reply, I again wrote the seller on March 27, 2009:

I'm wondering if you got my previous message? Was hoping to hear from you before I left Breeder Feedback. Thanks.

On April 1, 2009 I finally received a reply:

Re:Ghost oothsk. can i get back to you this week end?

I replied:

Yes, that would be fine... please do.

I waited, and next heard back from him on April 7, 2009... about a week later:

Re:Ghost oothsi will cover the cost of the ooths, or i can send you more for free if you want.

thanks

I replied that day (April 7):

Thank you for replying and offering to refund the cost of, or replace the ooths. I really appreciate it as I was quite disappointed they didn't hatch. Either way is fine with me... whatever works well for you. But if you do have some more that you think are fertile, I wouldn't mind giving them a try. If you'd prefer to refund the purchase price of the 2 ooths ($40.00), you can do so by PayPal to katnapper@gmail. I understand and don't expect you to refund shipping or heat pack charges.

Or, as I said, I'd be more than happy to receive fertile replacement ooths.

Please just let me know. And again, I appreciate your working to resolve the situation.

[Continued on next post due to the "too many quotes" (within one post) posting error.]

 

[Katnapper]

On April 19, 2009, I finally heard from him again:

just send money for shipping, the address, and how many need replaced

I considered this and wrote back (same day):

How much for shipping to replace the 2 Ghost ooths that didn't hatch? And when would you ship? Soon?My address is:

Becky Heacox

xxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxx xxxxx

Thank you.

This time he replied back the same day (April 19, 2009):

$10. probabley tuesday

At this point, especially due to the slow and seemingly reluctant communication, I'm wondering if I should risk spending another $10.00 to get replacements, which also may or may not hatch. I pondered about it and replied (April 19):

How about you ship them, and as soon as they hatch I guarantee I will reimburse you for the shipping? Please let me know. Thank you.

His reply the next day (April 20, 2009):

can you send the money first? [by PayPal][email protected]

I just don't know what to do now.... :mellow: take a chance, or cut my losses. I'd like to come to a resolution, either with the deal, or at least in my mind about his intentions and reliability, before posting any feedback. Any suggestions? What would you do? Any advice greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[tier]

Ask him to pay the ooth after hatching to be sure not to waste even more money. Tell him you can send the (empty) ooth back to proof they hatched/did not hatch. A breeder can see if its an ooth from him and he can see if it hatched out or not.

And for the future: Buy my stuff or buy from a breeder who is appreciated in this forum. If I am not sure that the ooth I sell will hatch, I say "jsut pay after hatching". If you use good members of this forum for business, you can send ooth for 500Euro and they will honestly tell you if something hatched or not. This is only working with well known, appreciated members.

Very easy.

PS: Ooth are a natural "product" so only stupid people (like me and drizzt for example) give a guarantee for hatching.

 

[Katnapper]

I might add... I paid $10.00 for shipping plus an additional $5.00 the heatpack (which I had to ask if he was going to include). He said he would for $5.00 more. The heat pack ended up being one of those foot warmer things by HotHands, and would have only been good for a few hours. And he shipped the padded envelope parcel post. I cannot remember how many days it took to arrive... not overly long though.

My point is, I feel I already paid generous enough shipping charges for what I ultimately got the first time. Should I take a chance and pay $10.00 more... likely to be shipped using the cheapest method, and would not have any kind of a heat pack this time also?

 

[Rick]

Since several things could prevent an ooth from hatching I try to let buyers know that they are only guaranteed to be fertile and properly cared for while in my hands. After that it is on the buyer. I have had this happen to me and I will refund a partial amount or none at all depending. Getting close to the time of year that heatpacks are not needed. I would say you overpaid for shipping. I guess the only other thing you could do is make sure to buy from a person with good feedback.

 

[PhilinYuma]

I might add... I paid $10.00 for shipping plus an additional $5.00 the heatpack (which I had to ask if he was going to include). He said he would for $5.00 more. The heat pack ended up being one of those foot warmer things by HotHands, and would have only been good for a few hours. And he shipped the padded envelope parcel post. I cannot remember how many days it took to arrive... not overly long though. My point is, I feel I already paid generous enough shipping charges for what I ultimately got the first time. Should I take a chance and pay $10.00 more... likely to be shipped using the cheapest method, and would not have any kind of a heat pack this time also?

My goodness, Katt! And you are one of the very few folks on the forum who can get a couple of ghost ooths for free at any time, within five days of asking! Send him the dead ooths and ask for your money back, minus shipping! If he refuses, that's his right, just as it is your right to post the outcome on the breeders' form.

 

[jacksun]

+1 to Phil's reply

 

[Christian]

There is no guarantee that an ooth will hatch. That's why I usually not sell them at all. You get situations like this. However, in the rare cases I do it, all the risk is on the part of the buyer. I would give no refund nor the money back. After all, after they left me I cannot guarantee anything, the least the conditions the recipient offered. Once the deal is done it's over. That's why people should buy nymphs. Failures on the part of the seller are more obvious then.

 

[PhilinYuma]

There is no guarantee that an ooth will hatch. That's why I usually not sell them at all. You get situations like this. However, in the rare cases I do it, all the risk is on the part of the buyer. I would give no refund nor the money back. After all, after they left me I cannot guarantee anything, the least the conditions the recipient offered. Once the deal is done it's over. That's why people should buy nymphs. Failures on the part of the seller are more obvious then.

No one can disagree with your position, Christian, but, your fluent English betrays the common confusion among English speakers between "guarantee" as "express waranty" and "guarantee" as "promise" or "predict with accuracy." It is true that you have no control over the ooth once it has left your hands and therefore cannot "promise" that it will hatch (no one knows that, for sure, about their own ooths!), but you can still guarantee that it will do so, if you wish, meaning that you will recompense the buyer in some way if it does not.

Such matters are certainly best ironed out in advance, though ooth buyers, in my experience, are reluctant to do so. Were you to offer me an expensive ooth for sale, I would would most probably ask for some kind of guarantee; you would decline, and our business would be concluded. If I bought an ooth from EBay, I would not expect any guarantee and would only spend as much as I was prepared to lose (not very much!).

On this forum, though, members tend to hold themselves to a higher standard. Two Polish members even go so far as to decline payment until the ooths hatch, a most generous offer which, however, seems to work well for them. I wouldn't go that far, but I would certainly replace a dead ooth or refund the buyer's money minus shipping costs, and I think that that is "pretty much" standard practice here, whether there is a prior agreement or not.

Even with a written guarantee, though, the seller can refuse or fail to make a refund, and legal recourse, through a different state, is something that most people would not bother with unless the money ran into triple figures (though they could file a complaint with PayPal if that method was used and there was a written agreement). In the final analysis, a forum member's recourse is to post in the feedback section. A number of "failure to hatch, no accomodation" posts should have the desired effect of causing others to avoid such a seller's wares.

 

[Katnapper]

I'm glad to hear, and truly appreciate, the varied opinions expressed in replies. Obviously there is no set course of action or certain remedy, without (and possibly even with) an express agreement before the sale. But it helps to know what other members think. Thank you for replying.

 

[Christian]

I do this quite a long time and made the experience that avoiding ooth deals causes less headache. Of course this means that some people cannot be served (US, Asia) with certain species due to longer shipping periods, but it's better for me to have to refuse some deals than to bother with others much longer than they are worth.

Some species' ooths are difficult to assess anyway. Take Idolomantis: a good, fertilized ooth with an average hatching rate of 40 nymphs (hatching rates being usually much higher) would cost around 350 Euros. It's obvious that this is a ridiculous price that noone will pay. To sell it cheaper would mean a loss for the breeder. If it doesn't hatch, the seller is usually blamed for. Whatever alternative, it is disadvantageous for the breeder to sell ooths of this species. So why ever try? There are several species fitting into this category. Selling nymphs overcomes such problems and, if done properly, satisfies both parties.

 

[lectricblueyes]

Between the Ooths not hatching, the bad communication and/or lack thereof, along with the "heat-pack" which you agreed to buy but did not receive.... I'd pull the plug and get your money ASAP.

Given that the Ooths were shipped in January (VERY cold in Chicago-area) and the heat pack was not right, THAT alone could have killed the Ooths even if they were fertile. My assumption is that any insect or insect egg case that is native to Madagascar will not survive sub-zero temps for a few days in transit to Chicago-area.

Given that he/she is willing to refund you the money on something that was never guaranteed, and given that you actually get the money back... I would refrain from leaving a negative breeder feedback. Even-Even.

I have a much lower limit on what I'll tolerate and I'd have handled this situation with far less patience and/or kindness. But, you know how barbaric us men can be.