Bugmankeith
Well-known member
I have both in my area.
Tenodera angustipennis x Tenodera sinensis
Tenodera angustipennis x Tenodera sinensis
Can these species hybridize?
- Thread starter Bugmankeith
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@Bugmankeith Possibly, but unlikely.
Hybrid and interbreeding topics are complex, usually a loaded question, and many will avoid any discussion on the topic due to moral and ethical concerns.
In nature breeding between two similar species (Same Genus) can and does occur in some circumstances (Africanized bees for example). Generally such breeding between species is stopped naturally by pheromones and is enough to repulse most other species even from a distance. Up close their physiology and size can make breeding impossible.
While not mantid related, the following is related to hybridization and shows it does occur in nature and from human means. A recent article I read discussed hybridization done originally in a lab (Dr. Warwick Estevam Kerr in 1956, escaped in 1957) and then further hybridization occurred in nature to create the Africanized bee, the commonly called killer bees. Which are a mix of the African honey bee (Apis mellifera scutellata) and European species of Apis mellifera ligustica and Apis mellifera iberiensis.
I know in the arachnid community as a whole it is a hot topic, and a major concern, as it does happen from pet owners and has said to have wiped out true species bloodlines in the hobby. Due to the larger tarantula hobby it is a more common concern than other arachnids however. I know firsthand of the tarantula issue due to being sold a hybrid one myself...
Hybrid and interbreeding topics are complex, usually a loaded question, and many will avoid any discussion on the topic due to moral and ethical concerns.
In nature breeding between two similar species (Same Genus) can and does occur in some circumstances (Africanized bees for example). Generally such breeding between species is stopped naturally by pheromones and is enough to repulse most other species even from a distance. Up close their physiology and size can make breeding impossible.
While not mantid related, the following is related to hybridization and shows it does occur in nature and from human means. A recent article I read discussed hybridization done originally in a lab (Dr. Warwick Estevam Kerr in 1956, escaped in 1957) and then further hybridization occurred in nature to create the Africanized bee, the commonly called killer bees. Which are a mix of the African honey bee (Apis mellifera scutellata) and European species of Apis mellifera ligustica and Apis mellifera iberiensis.
Regarding humans interbreeding species it raises many moral and ethic concerns, and results in a strong negative response.
I know in the arachnid community as a whole it is a hot topic, and a major concern, as it does happen from pet owners and has said to have wiped out true species bloodlines in the hobby. Due to the larger tarantula hobby it is a more common concern than other arachnids however. I know firsthand of the tarantula issue due to being sold a hybrid one myself...
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Vixorthegreat
Active member
This is a very interesting topic. I am sure under certain kind of circumstances it could happen, but unlikely. I once had a R.basalis female the breed with a hybrid male who was most likely a R. Basalis/R. Valida mix, but the entire offspring population perished.
Just because an individual is sterile does not mean it's not a hybrid; hybrids are by definition a cross between two or more species. They just aren't fertile hybrids and thereby can't produce F2 generations; if one does not wish to risk contamination of lines but is curious about results (appearances, genetic inheritance etc.) a sterile hybrid would be preferable. The linked thread has incorrect information from the person linked to claiming that a sterile individual is not a hybrid or that fertile hybrids mean they are the same species; neither is true IN THE SLIGHTEST and anyone with a decent taxonomic background knows this well. Our boxes don't fit nature, and never have, and the biological species concept (if they can breed they're the same) falls apart more often than it ever holds true. Example: wolves and coyotes interbreed to produce fertile offspring, but are never considered the same species. Corn snakes and king snakes can interbreed and produce fertile offspring (F2 hybrids and beyond are well known in herpetoculture), and they're unquestionably not even in the same genus let alone species. Many hybrids also do exist in nature, even outside human disturbance, in areas of overlap or environmental gradation and are an important, even essential aspect of evolution.
Personally, if it's possible I see no reason why hybrids are an inherently bad thing IF one responsibly monitors them and does not either try to pass them off as a pure species, introduce them somewhere or contaminate species lines. My experience with such however is in the realm of reptiles and botany, where the issue can be polarizing as well but far more positively received, and the results often fantastic.
Personally, if it's possible I see no reason why hybrids are an inherently bad thing IF one responsibly monitors them and does not either try to pass them off as a pure species, introduce them somewhere or contaminate species lines. My experience with such however is in the realm of reptiles and botany, where the issue can be polarizing as well but far more positively received, and the results often fantastic.
@hcarlton Thanks for clarifying, and I removed the offending sentence. I am glad to hear the topic much better defined. Like most on MF I'm just hobbyist, and conflicting information can be rampant online. 
As you personally see no problems with properly labelled hybrids, have you tried or heard of hybrid mantids? After searching many other topics on the matter on MF I found more posts and responses, and some successful attempts at breeding, but no offspring hatched.
Speaking of hybrid species in nature it begs the question as to how a wild collected specimen could be assured not to be a hybrid (without any obvious physical appearance, size, and characteristics) - short of lab testing.
Other hybrid topics I found on MF...
As you personally see no problems with properly labelled hybrids, have you tried or heard of hybrid mantids? After searching many other topics on the matter on MF I found more posts and responses, and some successful attempts at breeding, but no offspring hatched.
Speaking of hybrid species in nature it begs the question as to how a wild collected specimen could be assured not to be a hybrid (without any obvious physical appearance, size, and characteristics) - short of lab testing.
Other hybrid topics I found on MF...
I haven't been in the hobby long enough to actually breed more than one species currently, and have been collecting species that look notably different; it will be several years likely before I have the resources or room to start collecting many species within the same genus let alone attempt to hybridize. I can imagine a few tricks that might be used to encourage success, but insects work rather differently than the animals I'm more used to so I wouldn't bet on success (plus, I'd be more invested in attempting reptile hybridization; this is more of a side interest for me than that). I've heard of a few instances on FB threads but as usual it's met mostly with negativity and little detail results.
For concerns about wild specimens, it's already been noted that insects rely very heavily on species-specific pheromones and other traits or breeding behaviors to select mates; the one study I read on natural hybridization was with grasshoppers, wherein two European species were known to hybridize occasionally but only due to unusual extenuating circumstances in the wild (silent males and females as opposed to typical calling individuals and pheromone variation within the species permitting occasional crosses) and the hybrids, being a mix of the two, though typically slightly fertile either repelled both parent species and the other hybrids or would selectively breed with only one parent, permitting slight gene flow but not heavy cross-contamination or hybrid swarms. Being a one-off example this suggests insect hybrids are far less common than hybrids among other species, so finding one in the wild is unlikely, and if you know the defining traits of either species well then examination would probably lead to determination of its hybrid nature. Most insect hybrids seem to follow the sterility rule too, so backcrossing is uncommon. Hybrids in the fields I specialize in are generally obvious or become so after looking at specific traits, and genetic testing is becoming more readily available.
For concerns about wild specimens, it's already been noted that insects rely very heavily on species-specific pheromones and other traits or breeding behaviors to select mates; the one study I read on natural hybridization was with grasshoppers, wherein two European species were known to hybridize occasionally but only due to unusual extenuating circumstances in the wild (silent males and females as opposed to typical calling individuals and pheromone variation within the species permitting occasional crosses) and the hybrids, being a mix of the two, though typically slightly fertile either repelled both parent species and the other hybrids or would selectively breed with only one parent, permitting slight gene flow but not heavy cross-contamination or hybrid swarms. Being a one-off example this suggests insect hybrids are far less common than hybrids among other species, so finding one in the wild is unlikely, and if you know the defining traits of either species well then examination would probably lead to determination of its hybrid nature. Most insect hybrids seem to follow the sterility rule too, so backcrossing is uncommon. Hybrids in the fields I specialize in are generally obvious or become so after looking at specific traits, and genetic testing is becoming more readily available.
@hcarlton Well that's understandable, and a good view of the undertaking of the task too. Indeed what can be found on the topic or attempts, has little detail if any follow-up. Speaking of FB that is where I saw at least some of the negative reactions, as I've found little of that on the forum related posts.
Interesting study that ends the idea of an isolated hybrid mantid population pretty quickly too.
Interesting study that ends the idea of an isolated hybrid mantid population pretty quickly too.
