Christianity debates here please. criticism welcome :)

[hibiscusmile]

why shouldn't there be more than one way to heaven? Well because God makes up the rules, and he who holds all the air we breath gets to make those rules. :shock:

No I am not Catholic, but went to their church for a time, also I have a young man who is a youth pastor for a lutheran church come from his whole life in a Catholic church looking for another way. Many catholics I know including my sister in law want to know more than the church is willing to give. They feel they have spent most of thier lives listing to dialic they could not understand and wanted to read the Bible for themselves. I am a lot older and u must remember that in my younger days the Priest spoke latin for Bible reading and no one understood what they were saying, now they realise that people want more and are not fulfilled in their souls. So now some of the churches (here in Ohio at least) will raise their hands and Praise God and even relent to being born again.!

 

[hibiscusmile]

Asa wrote about Purgatory. Where do You find the work Purgatory in the Bible?

Depends if you use the Catholic Bible or the Protestant. The Catholic Bible has the word Purgatory. St. Paul even talks about it. Catholics believe that their is more to the faith than the Bible.

2nd Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. The Bible is Gods Holy Word, read Revelation 22:18, 19 again, . It doesn't matter what we want, or what the Catholics believe, if they do not believe in what the Creator of the universe said then no matter how much they denie it or want something else, it cannot be so. It is what it is.

 

[colddigger]

by first Christians i think it is meant to mean

First Christian Church

and then everything branched off of it

 

[OGIGA]

The Bible is Gods Holy Word

I'm not trying to disagree with you, but when the people who wrote "word" in the Bible, I don't really have a reason to think that they are referring to the Bible that we know today. I know it's the popular belief today that word=Bible, but what is the reason for that?

I just know that the people who wrote any part of the Bible (that we know of today) did not have what we have. Even when Paul was alive, he didn't have a publication of the Gospel accounts. In Revelations, I believe "this book" refers to what John wrote recorded in the book of Revelations. "Word" (logos and rama in Greek) looks like it refers to the message, teaching, or what somebody actually said.

 

[Asa]

why shouldn't there be more than one way to heaven? Well because God makes up the rules, and he who holds all the air we breath gets to make those rules. :shock: No I am not Catholic, but went to their church for a time, also I have a young man who is a youth pastor for a lutheran church come from his whole life in a Catholic church looking for another way. Many catholics I know including my sister in law want to know more than the church is willing to give. They feel they have spent most of thier lives listing to dialic they could not understand and wanted to read the Bible for themselves. I am a lot older and u must remember that in my younger days the Priest spoke latin for Bible reading and no one understood what they were saying, now they realise that people want more and are not fulfilled in their souls. So now some of the churches (here in Ohio at least) will raise their hands and Praise God and even relent to being born again.!

Many Catholic Churches still use Latin.

If a savage in the wilderness died without ever knowing God, do you think he deserves to go to heck?

 

[OGIGA]

Many Catholic Churches still use Latin.If a savage in the wilderness died without ever knowing God, do you think he deserves to go to heck?

Technically, we all deserve to go to heck in the first place. If our name is not found in the "book of life", we'll be thrown into the lake of fire (I suppose we call this heck) (Revelations 20:15). How do people get their names into that book? Christians believe you can through only Jesus' atonement for us.

I don't know the ins and outs of Catholicism, so can you tell me what Catholics believe gets people into heaven or the book of life?

 

[hibiscusmile]

The Bible is Gods Holy Word

I'm not trying to disagree with you, but when the people who wrote "word" in the Bible, I don't really have a reason to think that they are referring to the Bible that we know today. I know it's the popular belief today that word=Bible, but what is the reason for that?

I just know that the people who wrote any part of the Bible (that we know of today) did not have what we have. Even when Paul was alive, he didn't have a publication of the Gospel accounts. In Revelations, I believe "this book" refers to what John wrote recorded in the book of Revelations. "Word" (logos and rama in Greek) looks like it refers to the message, teaching, or what somebody actually said.

Sure Paul had referance of the teachings. Most of the Old testament was available to the New Testament writers. And the Bible we use today is still the Bible we had back then, The 5 books of Moses called the Pentateuch were available and even jesus taught from the Old Test.

To sum it all up, If God created the universe, man, light, night, air, water, trees, leaves, bugs and so forth, then why would anyone think that He would not have wrote what He wanted in His Biblia? In Matthew 21:42 it says: Have you never read the Scrptures? Plural! and in Mark 12:10 Has the sigular, referring to the paticular text quoted, "haven't you read this scripture? 2nd Timothy 3:15 speaks of "the Sacred writings" and the next verse says, "All Scripture is God-breathed". The men who wrote and recorded the Bible we have today is quite a history lesson. The Canon of the Old Testament by R.T. Beckwith states that" the term "canon" is borrowed from Greek, in which Kanon means a rule- a standard for measurement. With respect to the Bible, it speaks of those books that met the standard and therefore were worthy of inclusion. Since the 4th century Kanon has been used by Christians to denote an Authoritative list of the books belonging to the Old Testament or new Testament.

 

[hibiscusmile]

I really think he already did, baptisium! To be in the book of life you have to accept Jesus as Lord and ask for forgivness. In Revelation 3:20 Jesus says "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock, If any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him and sup with him, and he with Me. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in my throne, even as I overcame and sat down with my Father in His throne

 

[colddigger]

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/comsten

this is high relevent

[SIZE=8pt]i don't even know what that means[/SIZE]

after seeing this beautiful video, i came to peace with myself and the universe, and considering i am the universe, that seems pretty important!

 

[OGIGA]

Sure Paul had referance of the teachings. Most of the Old testament was available to the New Testament writers. And the Bible we use today is still the Bible we had back then, The 5 books of Moses called the Pentateuch were available and even jesus taught from the Old Test.To sum it all up, If God created the universe, man, light, night, air, water, trees, leaves, bugs and so forth, then why would anyone think that He would not have wrote what He wanted in His Biblia? In Matthew 21:42 it says: Have you never read the Scrptures? Plural! and in Mark 12:10 Has the sigular, referring to the paticular text quoted, "haven't you read this scripture? 2nd Timothy 3:15 speaks of "the Sacred writings" and the next verse says, "All Scripture is God-breathed". The men who wrote and recorded the Bible we have today is quite a history lesson. The Canon of the Old Testament by R.T. Beckwith states that" the term "canon" is borrowed from Greek, in which Kanon means a rule- a standard for measurement. With respect to the Bible, it speaks of those books that met the standard and therefore were worthy of inclusion. Since the 4th century Kanon has been used by Christians to denote an Authoritative list of the books belonging to the Old Testament or new Testament.

To answer "why would anyone think that He would not have wrote what He wanted in His Biblia?" I would have to say that different people have put together their holy scriptures together differently. Even the Christian and Catholic texts differ. And then there's Islam's and Judaism's texts too. Doesn't everybody think their scriptures are the "right ones"? I've heard the reasoning that God made the correct collection of scriptures into the Bible. I can't really buy that. God let a lot of bad things happen in this world too. Just imagine if instead of the Holy Bible (the one with 66 books) being the most popular, a different collection of texts was most popular. Yikes!

Repeatedly in the New Testament, I've seen that Scripture/scripture referring to the Old Testament, including the Torah (you call it the Pentateuch) and a lot of other books. When Paul (or pseudo-Paul writers) wrote what became books in the New Testament, they didn't have in mind, "This is going to be copied and preserved for thousands of years." He/they were addressing specific issues to specific people at that time. You can find lots of direct answers to questions, very personal remarks, and very personal requests (like 2 Tim. 4:13). We just happened to find a lot of Paul's responses useful to us today. Therefore, I would not say that Paul and pseudo-Paul writers intended for what they wrote to be part of what they referred to as Scripture(s).

Moving along, I don't think we should make word or Word equivalent to scripture(s) or Scripture(s). Most of the Christians I know treat all of these terms as if they are interchangeable, but I don't think it's a good idea. The way we understand these terms make us interpret what we read differently. The people who wrote the Holy Bible did not use those terms interchangeably so in order to understand what they wrote, we should understand the terms the way that they understood them, at least while we're reading what they wrote (even if it's translated). This is basically the reason why I wouldn't interpret Revelations 22:18 the same way you do/did. (I actually used to think word/Word/Scripture(s)/scripture(s) all mean exactly the Holy Bible with the 66 books. :? )

 

[hibiscusmile]

I totaly agree with all u said except the word or Word part. As I said before, God all knowing and all powerful had to put his WORDS somewhere, and the Bible to my understanding is where He put them, As a guide for those seeking Him and His ways. With Adam and Eve, he was able to just speak to them, but after man gave into sin, the verbal communication did not last long, Now Moses spoke to God and God spoke to Moses and He did with others we read about, but that was all before Jesus and the New Testament. The old testament kept us under the Law, The New Testament gave us Grace. But I degress, God only has to wave His hand so to speak and erase anything not of Him out of the Bible, mans minds and thoughts. He gave us the Bible, as in St. John 1: thru 18, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by Him: and without Him was not any thing made that was made. 4. In Him was life: and the life was the light of men. 14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His Glory, (the Glory as of the only Begotton of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 17. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

And yes everyone thinks their scriptures are the right ones, but in your heart of hearts in the quiet of the day, if you seek to know, the True Living God will answer you and you will know.

The Bible speaks to those who would believe a lie and every wind and doctrin that comes along. That is why we must learn for ourselves, because Satan would decieve the very elect if allowed to do so. (see St. John 1: 6 to 10) 9. That was the true light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

SEE 2nd Thessalonians 2: 1 thru 17 (11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. 12. That they all might be dammed who believe not the truth, but have pleasure in unrighteousness.

So you see there may be many books that proclaim the Lords Words, but in truth there is only one, which one, I do not have the authority to say as I have not read every one of them, but I do know in my heart of hearts that he leads me where I can follow Him.

 

[Asa]

Yes we all deserve to go to heck, but do you think our merciful God would allow that? Why did he die on the Cross for us? To save us from that fate. With God, no things are an accident, so even that savage must have some road to Salvation. That would be through Baptism of Desire.

For an Islamic terrorist, trying to 'defend' his faith, should he go to heck? All we know is that somewhere in his life he had an opportunity to change. Remember that God would not give us something that we could not do. There would not be any purpose creating beings that no matter what would go to heck.

 

[Rick]

Yes we all deserve to go to heck, but do you think our merciful God would allow that? Why did he die on the Cross for us? To save us from that fate. With God, no things are an accident, so even that savage must have some road to Salvation. That would be through Baptism of Desire.For an Islamic terrorist, trying to 'defend' his faith, should he go to heck? All we know is that somewhere in his life he had an opportunity to change. Remember that God would not give us something that we could not do. There would not be any purpose creating beings that no matter what would go to heck.

Do you people actually believe this stuff? Not trying to ruffle any feathers but since this thread was titled as a debate I will debate it a different way. I actually don't care what anyone's beliefs are but mine are different.

 

[Asa]

One person out of three believes this 'stuff', or something similiar.

 

[hibiscusmile]

Thats good, every one should have his own beliefs, because each person, good or bad as most say, are different in their own way, like a snowflake, no two are the same, as so people are no different, we all live and breath, but are still different. And the old saying I so like to repeat " different strokes for different folks".

 

[hibiscusmile]

Yes we all deserve to go to heck, but do you think our merciful God would allow that? Why did he die on the Cross for us? To save us from that fate. With God, no things are an accident, so even that savage must have some road to Salvation. That would be through Baptism of Desire.For an Islamic terrorist, trying to 'defend' his faith, should he go to heck? All we know is that somewhere in his life he had an opportunity to change. Remember that God would not give us something that we could not do. There would not be any purpose creating beings that no matter what would go to heck.

No God did not die on the cross so that we could go to heck. He took on all the sins of the world so that we could be saved. And that should show his MERCY. He does not decree that we go to heck, that is our own choice. Just as Adam and Eve sinned by their free will, so do we. BUT we can change even as the savage or terrorist can change. It is call choice. Make the choice, God sat out the standards and we have the free choice to hear or not to hear. Did you read what I wrote earlier about how the savage would hear God? The Bible says that in Romans 14:11For it is written, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. the word here is EVERY. so if EVERY means EVERY, not like Clinton definition, but EVERY then the savage will hear Him and know that He is Lord. He can with his free will / choice turn away if he so desires.

 

[Asa]

Yes we all deserve to go to heck, but do you think our merciful God would allow that? Why did he die on the Cross for us? To save us from that fate. With God, no things are an accident, so even that savage must have some road to Salvation. That would be through Baptism of Desire.For an Islamic terrorist, trying to 'defend' his faith, should he go to heck? All we know is that somewhere in his life he had an opportunity to change. Remember that God would not give us something that we could not do. There would not be any purpose creating beings that no matter what would go to heck.

No God did not die on the cross so that we could go to heck. He took on all the sins of the world so that we could be saved. And that should show his MERCY. He does not decree that we go to heck, that is our own choice. Just as Adam and Eve sinned by their free will, so do we. BUT we can change even as the savage or terrorist can change. It is call choice. Make the choice, God sat out the standards and we have the free choice to hear or not to hear. Did you read what I wrote earlier about how the savage would hear God? The Bible says that in Romans 14:11For it is written, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. the word here is EVERY. so if EVERY means EVERY, not like Clinton definition, but EVERY then the savage will hear Him and know that He is Lord. He can with his free will / choice turn away if he so desires.

Huh? Maybe we had a misunderstanding, but that's what I've been trying to say. Our faiths are so alike.

 

[hibiscusmile]

Yes they are, the really only thing that matters is that We believe on the Son, Jesus Christ is Lord, the rest is pretty well mute!

 

[bubforever]

The way i see it all forms of Christianity are the same. I know that each one has something a bit different that it does but in the end we believe in Jesus, God, and being a good person and having faith lead to heaven. I see no reason for there to be arguements over which one is better or anything.

 

[Asa]

The way i see it all forms of Christianity are the same. I know that each one has something a bit different that it does but in the end we believe in Jesus, God, and being a good person and having faith lead to heaven. I see no reason for there to be arguements over which one is better or anything.

Not arguements, friendly debates. :wink:

It just helps to get the other point of view.