CosbyArt mantid thread

[avn]

Thanks for doing the science! 

I'm been keeping some communally and have noticed the communal ones are bigger too.

i've been keeping l2's together and haven't noticed too much cannibolism - most of the recent deaths seem to be from late  molts to l2 that mismolt and get trapped in their skin. Had a couple of those...

 

[Krissim Klaw]

I wounder if some of it has to do with the communal ones getting more food. I can almost always tell who has cannibalized because they end up fatter than their neighbors. Some also get more food than siblings so you get the more robust looking ones while those that had a slower start loose out. This in turn results in some shedding faster. Mantises that are slightly larger than their siblings have an advantage when it comes to fighting for food or going after other siblings. Even more so when they get a shedding ahead. Thus in a communal setting the naturally larger nymphs probably have a higher rate of survival while in single setups size won't play much of a factor in survival.

I've found advantages either way. In single set ups I tend to have less problems but realistically single set ups eat up a lot of time when you have oothecae worth of nymphs hatching out. The big thing I've found with most of my nymphs is making sure they get water to drink on a daily basis. Usually I do twice a day if I know they are coming up on shedding. I'm not sure how people do it in tanks. With my net cages I soak everything because if it the water isn't where the nymph is standing they probably aren't going to get a drink. Since I use net it dries out quickly so there is no worry for stagnant water. I would be afraid of over spraying if I tried a similar method in a tank/deli cup though.

 

[CosbyArt]

Thanks for doing the science! 

I'm been keeping some communally and have noticed the communal ones are bigger too.

i've been keeping l2's together and haven't noticed too much cannibolism - most of the recent deaths seem to be from late  molts to l2 that mismolt and get trapped in their skin. Had a couple of those...

Glad to hear you have the same results of the larger nymphs when kept communal. It is a curious event though, if they are kept separate it can be assured they are fed plenty; however, as the individual housed nymphs are smaller it can't be feeder related. That only leaves the idea that nymphs that cannibalize get something that makes them grow better - Or is related to stress making them grow quicker to get a jump on the others themselves rather than becoming a victim. Either way it is rather interesting what causes it.

It is common for natives species in-particular to only have 15-25% of hatching nymphs to make it to adulthood. If you are fairing better than that then you are doing good.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

It is common for natives species in-particular to only have 15-25% of hatching nymphs to make it to adulthood. If you are fairing better than that then you are doing good.

You mean in the wild or are you talking captive raised?

 

[CosbyArt]

I wounder if some of it has to do with the communal ones getting more food. I can almost always tell who has cannibalized because they end up fatter than their neighbors. Some also get more food than siblings so you get the more robust looking ones while those that had a slower start loose out. This in turn results in some shedding faster. Mantises that are slightly larger than their siblings have an advantage when it comes to fighting for food or going after other siblings. Even more so when they get a shedding ahead. Thus in a communal setting the naturally larger nymphs probably have a higher rate of survival while in single setups size won't play much of a factor in survival.

I've found advantages either way. In single set ups I tend to have less problems but realistically single set ups eat up a lot of time when you have oothecae worth of nymphs hatching out. The big thing I've found with most of my nymphs is making sure they get water to drink on a daily basis. Usually I do twice a day if I know they are coming up on shedding. I'm not sure how people do it in tanks. With my net cages I soak everything because if it the water isn't where the nymph is standing they probably aren't going to get a drink. Since I use net it dries out quickly so there is no worry for stagnant water. I would be afraid of over spraying if I tried a similar method in a tank/deli cup though.

Thanks for writing. Personally I know my individual nymphs have access to more feeders, so in that theory they should be larger if it is food related. Of course they are actually smaller so it must be one of two things mentioned above (Some nutrient they get from cannibalizing, or stress making them molt quicker to defend themselves).

As long as your smaller habitats have substrate it will soak-up any excess water so there is no problem there. Plus any decent ventilation fixes the problem of over-watering too. Either way as normally recommended just mist/water enough that it evaporates in 30 minutes or less and it won't be a problem, no matter the setup as long as it isn't a airtight container the water amount can be adjusted.

 

[CosbyArt]

You mean in the wild or are you talking captive raised?

That is captive species. As there is no way to know how many mantids make it in the wild as they can freely move out of the area (and others can move in). Not to mention how many wild ooths are around unknown, that would really be a nightmare to try and get any accurate estimations.

The 15-25% rating is found on Yen Saw's old website logs, and has been discussed numerous times on various threads on here as well in the last few years (let alone before that).

 

[Krissim Klaw]

Thanks for writing. Personally I know my individual nymphs have access to more feeders, so in that theory they should be larger if it is food related. Of course they are actually smaller so it must be one of two things mentioned above (Some nutrient they get from cannibalizing, or stress making them molt quicker to defend themselves).

As long as your smaller habitats have substrate it will soak-up any excess water so there is no problem there. Plus any decent ventilation fixes the problem of over-watering too. Either way as normally recommended just mist/water enough that it evaporates in 30 minutes or less and it won't be a problem, no matter the setup as long as it isn't a airtight container the water amount can be adjusted.

How do you know the individual mantises are getting more food? In a communal setup mantises always have other mantises so they always have a food source. I suppose an interesting study would be to take a couple dozen nymphs and place them in individual enclosures and feed half of them another mantis in addition to feeders while giving the other group additional feeders in place of the mantis. Outside of this everyone would get the same amount, and then see how everyone turns out size wise.

I've never misted heavily in a tank with only a lid for ventilation. Does it usually dry out pretty quick then?

That is captive species. As there is no way to know how many mantids make it in the wild as they can freely move out of the area (and others can move in). Not to mention how many wild ooths are around unknown, that would really be a nightmare to try and get any accurate estimations.

The 15-25% rating is found on Yen Saw's old website logs, and has been discussed numerous times on various threads on here as well in the last few years (let alone before that).

Ahh 15-24% just seems really low to me. I don't tend to raise up all nymphs though from most oothecae hatchings though. I usually end up picking out some and releasing the rest when it comes to natives. When I pick ones out to raise up though the survival rate to adulthood is pretty high, although maybe I'm just good at picking out the robust ones.

 

[CosbyArt]

How do you know the individual mantises are getting more food? In a communal setup mantises always have other mantises so they always have a food source. I suppose an interesting study would be to take a couple dozen nymphs and place them in individual enclosures and feed half of them another mantis in addition to feeders while giving the other group additional feeders in place of the mantis. Outside of this everyone would get the same amount, and then see how everyone turns out size wise.

I've never misted heavily in a tank with only a lid for ventilation. Does it usually dry out pretty quick then?

Ahh 15-24% just seems really low to me. I don't tend to raise up all nymphs though from most oothecae hatchings though. I usually end up picking out some and releasing the rest when it comes to natives. When I pick ones out to raise up though the survival rate to adulthood is pretty high, although maybe I'm just good at picking out the robust ones.

That's easy, as they are housed alone they get a few extra feeders anyway to ensure they find them. So in that aspect the individual nymphs have access to more feeders, and no fighting involved either so it is known they are getting at least their minimum (of course the flies die of natural causes too). That might be a interesting study, but I'm not willing to feed them another mantid species.

The cups can, but as mentioned the misting amount is altered to ensure it evaporates in 30 minutes (it isn't such a heavy dousing as can be done with net cages, a few times doing it though and the amount to use is learned).

If you are waiting until the L2 stage or later then the nymphs to choose from are the stronger stock already (as the problem nymphs tend to die before L2). Of course, if you are choosing larger or more active nymphs as well that betters your chances too. Regarding the percentage it depends on the species as some hatch low numbers but stronger nymphs, so some are closer to 75%.

For Chinese nymphs though if every nymph survived from each ooth laid that would give rise to at least a thousand mantids from a single mother's ooths of the previous year. They hatch high numbers (100-200 for Chinese) to ensure the best chances for some to survive, otherwise they would be a nuisance like cockroaches in numbers. Much like sea turtles egg nests hatch 50 to 250 or more turtles - with such high numbers they have a fighting chance against predators as predators can only eat so much.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

For Chinese nymphs though if every nymph survived from each ooth laid that would give rise to at least a thousand mantids from a single mother's ooths of the previous year. They hatch high numbers (100-200 for Chinese) to ensure the best chances for some to survive, otherwise they would be a nuisance like cockroaches in numbers. Much like sea turtles egg nests hatch 50 to 250 or more turtles - with such high numbers they have a fighting chance against predators as predators can only eat so much.

In the wild there are predators though and an unpredictable environment to cull numbers. I will agree that some species do have better survival rates in captivity, although I don't think Chinese mantises should be having as low success rates in captivity as I see some people reporting. I feel that has more to do with the fact they aren't the best suited for the way people typically raise mantises in captivity. They are a mantis that likes space, and stresses easy when crowded in communal setups because of how active and voracious they are. Because of the large hatch rates they are often more likely to be overcrowded in communal setups as a lot of people don't upscale enough to account for the higher numbers.

At the same time with the huge oothecae hatch rate individual care quality is probably going to drop for someone attempting to spend time with each mantis in separate set ups. As for the nuisance part, Chinese sort of are like the roach of the mantis world at least in the USA. They have the widest range and can often be found liberally anywhere you find mantises. It's no surprise they are the ones that are most often sold as beneficial insects with as easy as it is to collect oothecae from the wild.

I've run the gambit as far as when picking mantises out from releasable species. When I pick them out of later instars though I am factoring in how many mantises died while getting to those later instars that I am picking out of. I just didn't see the excessive deaths in them that some have reported.

I should note I'm not saying this to knock people that choose to let them wheedle down to on a few robust individuals. We certainly don't need more of them added to the wild and it is cheaper to get an ootheca than pay shipping for a couple live Chinese sold as pets. It just seems like people always point at the abysmally low survival rates in captivity as the species being inferior, when I feel husbandry is often part of it. I'm always sad when I see people knock them as a starter species for the same reasons when this is the species that got me into mantises.

 

[avn]

Oh CosbyArt, I just realized.  You removed two nymphs early on and raised them individually, right? and now they're smaller than the two remaining communal ones.

That makes sense if we assume cannibolism means that only larger mantises survived, maybe the two remaining ones are the two biggest from the hatch.  Since your control group is just two mantises you raised individually I think this isn't surprising.  I'd expect a random two mantises to

be smaller than the two largest mantises.

i think to do this experiment and figure out if the communal housing does make them bigger, you should hatch and ooth and randomly choose a group for each nymph.  Raise half individually and half communally and see if the maximum sizes are different. 

The communal group will have a higher average size because of cannibolism but maybe the max size is not more... 

 

[CosbyArt]

In the wild there are predators though and an unpredictable environment to cull numbers. I will agree that some species do have better survival rates in captivity, although I don't think Chinese mantises should be having as low success rates in captivity as I see some people reporting. I feel that has more to do with the fact they aren't the best suited for the way people typically raise mantises in captivity. They are a mantis that likes space, and stresses easy when crowded in communal setups because of how active and voracious they are. Because of the large hatch rates they are often more likely to be overcrowded in communal setups as a lot of people don't upscale enough to account for the higher numbers.

At the same time with the huge oothecae hatch rate individual care quality is probably going to drop for someone attempting to spend time with each mantis in separate set ups. As for the nuisance part, Chinese sort of are like the roach of the mantis world at least in the USA. They have the widest range and can often be found liberally anywhere you find mantises. It's no surprise they are the ones that are most often sold as beneficial insects with as easy as it is to collect oothecae from the wild.

I've run the gambit as far as when picking mantises out from releasable species. When I pick them out of later instars though I am factoring in how many mantises died while getting to those later instars that I am picking out of. I just didn't see the excessive deaths in them that some have reported.

I should note I'm not saying this to knock people that choose to let them wheedle down to on a few robust individuals. We certainly don't need more of them added to the wild and it is cheaper to get an ootheca than pay shipping for a couple live Chinese sold as pets. It just seems like people always point at the abysmally low survival rates in captivity as the species being inferior, when I feel husbandry is often part of it. I'm always sad when I see people knock them as a starter species for the same reasons when this is the species that got me into mantises.

Some good points, and some do have better numbers with their care. I just used Chinese as they are so hardy and with such a large number of starting ones it was a good one to see the instar level to separate at (and is one that many new members do find at local stores to try first).

Not sure how I knocked the species, and if I did it was unintentional. As mentioned it was a good species to use. I personally have kept them in the past as pets, and still do. I can't say I'm a big a fan of LAME (as he had his member rank changed to Tenodera sinensis... the one and only ).

Oh CosbyArt, I just realized.  You removed two nymphs early on and raised them individually, right? and now they're smaller than the two remaining communal ones.

That makes sense if we assume cannibolism means that only larger mantises survived, maybe the two remaining ones are the two biggest from the hatch.  Since your control group is just two mantises you raised individually I think this isn't surprising.  I'd expect a random two mantises to

be smaller than the two largest mantises.

i think to do this experiment and figure out if the communal housing does make them bigger, you should hatch and ooth and randomly choose a group for each nymph.  Raise half individually and half communally and see if the maximum sizes are different. 

The communal group will have a higher average size because of cannibolism but maybe the max size is not more... 

Yes I removed some nymphs at L2. Indeed that theory could be correct, I would have to do a larger group of each to see which theory is the right one. Either way it is interesting the communal ones are larger, as it always seems the case from all the ooths I've hatched.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

Not sure how I knocked the species, and if I did it was unintentional. As mentioned it was a good species to use. I personally have kept them in the past as pets, and still do. I can't say I'm a big a fan of LAME (as he had his member rank changed to Tenodera sinensis... the one and only ).

No you didn't knock the species it just seems to happen a lot these days anytime I see anyone asking about good beginner species. I still think they make a great beginner species, especially since you can easily get an entire ootheca for often less than it would be to get a couple nymphs of something else shipped out. Plus they have such great personalities for someone wanting an active mantis they can easily handle.

No fair I'm jealous of LAME's title.

As far as instars, I've found the older the mantises get the more space they need per an individual to keep cannibalization down, which I guess sort of is common sense considering they are getting bigger with each shedding. I usually try to make an effort to keep mantises of a similar shedding rates in cages together. As they shed up in size, I will often remove and start another cage and slowly rotate everyone through the ranks. It generally works well unless you get a night like tonight. After checking on them and tallying who needs to be moved I went to the first cage only to see one had just started to shed while I was thinking on what to do. Not wanting to disturb the little one I was like cool, I'll do the other cage first, and of course another nymph had just started to shed in there. It is fun to look in though and see a bunch of freshly shed skins when they all start to pop at once though.

 

[CosbyArt]

Yeah I know what you mean it seems the species gets a bad rep as it is naturalized species, and often can be found in areas where other mantids are not. I'm not sure if it is due to their larger size making it easier to wipe out other species, or they can simply cope better in the environment where others can not.

Regarding a beginners species many keepers tend to say the species requires more care than recommended for a beginner. You are right about the price point though as they are by far the most accessible species, and even stocked by many local garden centers.

He is proud of his title too. There was talk of member ranks and changes a few years ago on the forum, perhaps you can suggest some more stages to the system. Of course you could ask for a custom rank, there is one head mod who could do it.

Interesting, do you find you can keep the species together longer if they are the same instar? If so what instar do they get housed individually? It is a great sight to see many fresh molts, I know when my nymphs all start to molt to L2 the habitat floor was covered in exuviae.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

Yep, I find the nymphs being the same instar helps. It's more intimidating to pick on a mantis your own size. Then of course there is keeping them fat, which is one of the things I dislike about communal setups. I usually end up having to keep them heavier than I prefer. With their earlier instars this really isn't an issue but the older/larger they get the higher chance being extra heavy can ad risk to molts. If I have time I will often supervise a bit when I feed as that tends to be when nymphs can be triggered into fights/cannibalization. They both see the same feeder and it is on.

Usually I start to separate once I can reliably sex nymphs by eyesight alone, which can vary some depending on species. This is when I pick out my keepers for pets, although often I will have a couple who have already caught my eye and have been set aside. Since I only keep 2-5 mantises at a time, making sure I get the number of girls/boys I want is important if I have any interest in breeding.

With native species I tend to slowly release as I go. I'll release some after hatching, then keep the rest through the first shedding, then let some more go, and so on until I can sex them. My communal setups tend to be fairly small as it stresses me out looking at mantises and feeling like they are stressed because of overcrowding. At L1 I typically don't keep more than 12 per a net cube. Then when they get to L2 I will knock it down to 6-7 per a net cube. Most of my Carolinas have shed to L3 now and I'll end up releasing some more again so I am down to 4 per a net cube, with 4 separate cages total. By L4 I should be able to sex them without much issue. With the Carolinas I've only had one missmolt and a couple cases of cannibalization up until this point. This species seems very hearty and robust.

 

[CosbyArt]

Yep, I find the nymphs being the same instar helps. It's more intimidating to pick on a mantis your own size. Then of course there is keeping them fat, which is one of the things I dislike about communal setups. I usually end up having to keep them heavier than I prefer. With their earlier instars this really isn't an issue but the older/larger they get the higher chance being extra heavy can ad risk to molts. If I have time I will often supervise a bit when I feed as that tends to be when nymphs can be triggered into fights/cannibalization. They both see the same feeder and it is on.

Usually I start to separate once I can reliably sex nymphs by eyesight alone, which can vary some depending on species. This is when I pick out my keepers for pets, although often I will have a couple who have already caught my eye and have been set aside. Since I only keep 2-5 mantises at a time, making sure I get the number of girls/boys I want is important if I have any interest in breeding.

With native species I tend to slowly release as I go. I'll release some after hatching, then keep the rest through the first shedding, then let some more go, and so on until I can sex them. My communal setups tend to be fairly small as it stresses me out looking at mantises and feeling like they are stressed because of overcrowding. At L1 I typically don't keep more than 12 per a net cube. Then when they get to L2 I will knock it down to 6-7 per a net cube. Most of my Carolinas have shed to L3 now and I'll end up releasing some more again so I am down to 4 per a net cube, with 4 separate cages total. By L4 I should be able to sex them without much issue. With the Carolinas I've only had one missmolt and a couple cases of cannibalization up until this point. This species seems very hearty and robust.

Sounds like the trick you learned is supervising their feeding, which has got to help.

It definitely helps to have a few of each sex when it comes to breeding. Do you do it very often? Is it to fulfill their goals, so you can have new offspring, or to help with the hobby expense? I ask as all are valid reasons but seems everyone is drawn to breeding for one reason or another.

Great sounds like you had some good luck with the Carolina ooths. With several released in various instars hopefully they will be a common sight in your backyard.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

Sounds like the trick you learned is supervising their feeding, which has got to help.

It definitely helps to have a few of each sex when it comes to breeding. Do you do it very often? Is it to fulfill their goals, so you can have new offspring, or to help with the hobby expense? I ask as all are valid reasons but seems everyone is drawn to breeding for one reason or another.

Great sounds like you had some good luck with the Carolina ooths. With several released in various instars hopefully they will be a common sight in your backyard.

I mostly breed because I end up humanizing them in my mind. It is hard for me to see the girl's calling so plaintively and expending so much energy on oothecae, knowing they are infertile. Then there are the boys that roam/flutter around in there cages in the dark of night, endlessly searching for a lady mantis to romance. I don't really notice hobby expense with as little as I tend to pay out of pocket. I raise my own feeders and typically only buy/trade for mantises about once a year as my old ones age out. Feeding my roach colony probably costs the most on a yearly basis. Sad to say but sometimes I think they get more fruits and veggies in their diet on a daily basis than I do. I really need to start feeding them my junkfood and eat what I am giving them instead. :sweatdrop:

It would be nice to see a yard full of mantises. Sadly it doesn't seem like I get much around the house even when I release. I think the competition might be too fierce mixed with the fact the grass is regularly cut. I don't get a lot of grasshoppers either and I've noticed mantises tend to like the same places you often find grasshoppers. It is a bummer as I get literally everything else under the sun though.

 

[CosbyArt]

I mostly breed because I end up humanizing them in my mind. It is hard for me to see the girl's calling so plaintively and expending so much energy on oothecae, knowing they are infertile. Then there are the boys that roam/flutter around in there cages in the dark of night, endlessly searching for a lady mantis to romance. I don't really notice hobby expense with as little as I tend to pay out of pocket. I raise my own feeders and typically only buy/trade for mantises about once a year as my old ones age out. Feeding my roach colony probably costs the most on a yearly basis. Sad to say but sometimes I think they get more fruits and veggies in their diet on a daily basis than I do. I really need to start feeding them my junkfood and eat what I am giving them instead. :sweatdrop:

It would be nice to see a yard full of mantises. Sadly it doesn't seem like I get much around the house even when I release. I think the competition might be too fierce mixed with the fact the grass is regularly cut. I don't get a lot of grasshoppers either and I've noticed mantises tend to like the same places you often find grasshoppers. It is a bummer as I get literally everything else under the sun though.

I'm in the same boat, I tend to breed them for pets and help them with their goal in life. Indeed if keeping feeders is done, the hobby can be a small expense.

Expense isn't the point though, as with another hobby of mine music, you wouldn't believe the amount of my money I spend to get some decent vintage equipment then to get it up and running great again - and the records/tapes/cds/etc. One of my favorites is analog tapes (8 tracks, cassettes, and reel to reels - in that order), I like the unique sound and it actually makes me want to listen to music and make new tapes. Sure I have digital music, I do needle drops (recording my vinyl records to preserve them) and other formats to mp3s as well and buying mp3s too, (I currently have 11,163 songs that are 320cbr bitrate on my PC (way better than I can hear so no need for flac)), but I rarely play them on my PC. I record them to tape and listen that way, or play the original formats - I much prefer it than the digital files. Anyway the point is we do things for the love of the hobby and not to recoup money, as that would be a job.

Long way to make a point lol. I'm glad though you are in it for the enjoyment of the hobby, it makes it more fun.

A trick I learned to keep mantids around is to leave a area in my yard "wild". I leave my carport area alone, and it let the local weeds and vines flourish around it and over the fence. It is about a foot from the fence on both sides around the area, and it is enough. It gives me plenty of insect life and mantids too, and is worth it.

Besides letting a area run wild you can also plant some flower beds full of larger flowers like lilacs, rose bushes, and have large flowering bushes. I think she has about a dozen species of plants but can't remember them at the moment. We have about 1/2 the backyard covered in a few large flower beds, besides looking nice, it attracts lots of insects and mantids. As a bonus we covered the border around them with geode rocks (6 pickup truck loads full) and I can collect many isopods, centipedes, arachnids, beetles, and other things just from under the rocks - and leads to other insect pets.

 

[CosbyArt]

Finally some good news with my Brunner's mantis nymphs. Their population has been slowly growing, and I have a few ranging from L1 to L3 now. Here is a photo of some on the incubation container lid (hard to see through the layers, but you can see their sizes). So hopefully several will make it to adulthood.

 

[Chrisv8855]

My L3 female giant african mantis.her name is big bertha.ive seen her eat five crickets one after the other.cannot keep crickets around long cause she eats them all,eats everything but the legs lol

 

[dmina]

Wishing you luck with those nymphs Thomas...

Chrisv8855 that sure is a nice looking giant African she looks well fed...