Cruelty to animals! Report this video...

[MantidLord]

Phil...I actually agree with that post.

 

[GreenOasis]

Precarious, no! You totally mistook what I said. :no:

My intent was in no way meant to make anyone here feel guilty. I, myself, fed three dying mantids to my bullfrog last night. (To me, this seems a more efficient, and more "natural" use of them than just chucking them in the freezer or trash.)

My post WAS meant to be thought-provoking and meant to make us see things from others' point of view. Just as the Biblical quote, "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone," was meant by Jesus to be thought-provoking to those in the blood-thirsty mob. (Again, not comparing myself to Jesus in any way!)

This falls in the "shades of grey" area of pet-keeping. One person's economical use of their collection is another person's horror story.

Yes, I do agree that filming & sharing that sort of brutality does leave one to wonder if those kids need psychological help, but...today, that is how kids "socialize", boast, brag, etc. Not unlike the old "Saturday night cruising" of our day. (And since kids can't bully each other in school anymore, they have to get out those raging hormones SOMEHOW.) It IS definitely wrong, though, (I in no way condone the action) and someone should step in and help those poor kids realize that. Unfortunately, posting comments on YouTube just gives them the kind of attention that they are seeking (from their parents), so it really does no good. I reported it, but didn't bother with a comment.

I do think that their problem is a lack of their parents being involved enough to teach them right from wrong. Such is the way of our "dual-income household" society nowadays.

Phil, I totally get you there (how odd)...remember the old glatiatorial games? (No, I don't mean from first-hand experience!) People LOVED that...and it was way more barbaric & cruel. Slavery, torture...you got it all there. Maybe you are correct about it being our natural tendency...I don't know...but I certainly hope not. I like to live under the false pretense that we are more "civilized" than that now.

And by the way, Phil...were you a proponent of the Eugenics Project, by any chance? Not helping the crippled!? Gosh, even *I* do that! I have had one or two that recovered after a subsequent molt. One Chinese female lived a good, long life after recovering from a bad L5 molt. And I also have an H. patellifera girl who nearly died in an over-heated shipping box, who, after a lot of nursing for a few days, made a full recovery & even went on to breed! (She did lose both "tarsus" on her raptors, so she has to get around on her claws, lost most of her antennae & has singed wings, but she eats & acts perfectly fine now.)

I do, however, put down the failing ones right away now, rather than trying to see if they will "snap out of it." I know when a battle is lost.

I myself, am certainly not without sin. In fact, I probably sin quite a bit more than even I realize.

 

[GreenOasis]

^This I agree completely. Unfortunately I've met kids who threatened to kill mantids just to spite me. Of course I would tell them that they're aiding the cockroach population. But the point is, there are some ignorant, misguided, and demented individuals out there. Unfortunately, this is a prime example (albeit low level example) of how crazy people can be. Phil I'm surprised you didn't hold a candle for the Great Mantis Goddess (BBHN) for the poor mantis to rest in peace and to maybe spite those two.

One of my daughter's former "friends" got off on telling me that he killed snakes, for fun. Just random messages that he'd killed a snake & how he did it...because he knew it hacked me off. Then, when I no longer responded about what I would do to him if I caught him doing such a thing, he started sending pictures of what he'd brutally done to them. Snakes with no heads, snakes that had been stomped into mush.

At first, I was enraged...I told him in no uncertain terms that he was no longer welcome at my house. Then, I got to thinking...about how this boy's parents were nowhere to be found, his grandparents, elderly & incapable of keeping up with him, basically let him run amuck...and I did feel a little twinge of pity for the kid that the only way he learned to get attention was by doing hateful things, and that he sought attention so much that he would aggravate ME, a person he barely knows, to get it!

I still don't let him over to my house, however, and my daughter has (thankfully!) finally taken my advice to get rid of him as a friend (he is irreparably damaged, in my opinion and even she now agrees "he's a psychopath!"), but I did make sure to have my older son pummel him at least once, on behalf of all the snakes he's killed and for my irritation with him (because I couldn't slap him myself.)

Kids like that crave and NEED discipline, but the more of a handful they become, the more we want to sweep them under the rug, out of our site, until they're too old for us to make any difference in their life (like those boys with the mantis), and there's nothing good left in them. Good thing there's the military, or they'd never be able to hold down a decent job. :blink:

 

[GreenOasis]

Disclaimer: When I say "pummeled"...I mean he gave him a quick jab in the chest, under supervision...he did NOT beat the kid senseless...although, that might've done wonders too!

My older son is far more gentle that *I* would've been.

 

[Precarious]

Precarious, no! You totally mistook what I said. :no:

You know me - Mr. Sensitive. I often take 'devil's advocate'-type statements as passive aggressive attacks.

I too have taken to feeding my hopeless cases to other pets as it seems the most natural and productive solution. I still hate doing it. Still makes me feel I've failed one of my pets.

 

[psyconiko]

Dont have much to say...It depresses me.Killing and torturing animals is a common pattern to sociopath and serial killers(before they decide to go to the next stage).When he would have done the same to his neighbours dog,friends,little sister,or girlfriend people would say:"Of course I know he was deranged,dont you remember this video"?

I did kill ants on purpose when I was younger.I even roll dirtworms around firecrackers before lighting them.But I knew I was doing something wrong and always felt bad after this kind of experiments.

Lets hope this kid is just young and stupid,never to late to realize that most animals are better alive than dead!

 

[PhilinYuma]

"And by the way, Phil...were you a proponent of the Eugenics Project, by any chance?"

@ Carey.

No, Carey, the eugenics movement and the American legislation in California and Florida were dead and being carefull buried from the social consciousness well before i came to the U.S. Curiously, the Nazi eugenics legislation of 1933 is still taught in American schools without reference, I believe, to the fact that it was modelled on Californian legislation.

So to be sure that I understand you, are you suggesting that because I do not nurse crippled mantids, i advocate the sterilization and segregation of of the "mentally feeble" who largely comprise blacks and the rural poor of the United States? No, I don't, and to save further questions along this line, I do not advocate selling humans, killing them in a freezer or feeding them to reptiles.

it may be, Carey, that you intended this as a joke, like your reference to Frey;s "evil ways". Not everyone, however, shares your sophisticated sense of humor, and you might save your self a few explanations and retractions by a little judicious self monitoring.

Edit: P.S. you were right, our tags have not had it taken down yet. If you find this repulsive folks and haven't tagged it yet, your help is needed!

 

[Precarious]

"And by the way, Phil...were you a proponent of the Eugenics Project, by any chance?"

@ Carey.

No, Carey, the eugenics movement and the American legislation in California and Florida were dead and being carefull buried from the social consciousness well before i came to the U.S. Curiously, the Nazi eugenics legislation of 1933 is still taught in American schools without reference, I believe, to the fact that it was modelled on Californian legislation.

A great (though dry) documentary on the rise of the various faces of eugenics in the early part of the last century...

Homo Sapiens 1900

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7559596148288756138

 

[Idolofreak]

Frikkin' sickening that that little even THOUGHT of doing that. Emoticons will help me:

:blink: :angry: :2guns: :gun_bandana: :tank:

BTW did anyone even MAKE it to the part where he RIPPED HER HEAD OFF(Or knocked it off, but either way it's totally wrong.), and then DUNKED HER IN A POND???

 

[Idolofreak]

Poor adult female Stagmomantis limbata Wow! Those guys are tards! :angry:

You know it! :angry:

 

[angelofdeathzz]

Maybe it's just me but I see a tremendous difference between documenting what occurs as part of a natural process outside of our control (such as a female partially eating her mate) and documenting your friend torturing and murdering a defenseless animal. I think it's pretty insulting to even draw any comparison between the two.

We've all got some level of morbid curiosity and I'd like to learn everything I can about my pets. Since there is no undoing what has been done by an over-eager female why not learn what we can from an unfortunate incident?

I can say from personal experience that putting one of my pets down is an emotionally traumatic experience. I've fed more than my share of crippled mantids hoping they would recover after their next molt. I've got to say it has never ended well. Whatever method is used to put them down is not pleasant, but better that than see them suffer as they starve to death.

I think you've taken the cruel, indefensible acts committed in this video and twisted them into a means of trying to make everyone here feel guilty about some unfortunate necessities that come along with keeping mantids, and I think that's a bunch of cr@p!

My friend I would not change one thing you said! +1 x 10, I feel exactly the same word for word...

But now on to serious business, I have the punk azz brat chained in my basement, so what to do with him? What say you...

 

[PhilinYuma]

No. I gave Carey the benefit of the doubt about knowing the meaning of the Eugenics Movement and I see no reason not to give her the same benefit for knowing the meaning of "devil's advocate". When the arguments are being made for an individual's sanctification, the church appoints a devil's advocate or Promotor Fidei

to advance the case against that individual's being beatified.He may be personally convinced of the candidate's sanctity and is arguing pro forma for the sake of a balanced discussion. Certainly it is not his role or intent to mock or revile the proponents' values or personal integrity. I understand that many companies do this at the management level, today, so give the poor woman a break. Why are we just dismissing her argument out of hand without debating it?

@Precarious: You are a scholar and a gentleman. I watched that disturbing movie that I had never heard of before through and even freeze framed bits to laboriously tackle the German text (forget the Russian!). Unfortunately, though, it did not support my assertion that the n movement was important in the US because it was prepared by Swedish, Russian and German sources, with an American voice over, and was not concerned with the issue in the U.S. except peripherally.

And now I'm off to visit my friend Angel and check out his basement. I have a 2x4 here, somewhere.....

 

[Precarious]

@Precarious: You are a scholar and a gentleman. I watched that disturbing movie that I had never heard of before through and even freeze framed bits to laboriously tackle the German text (forget the Russian!). Unfortunately, though, it did not support my assertion that the n movement was important in the US because it was prepared by Swedish, Russian and German sources, with an American voice over, and was not concerned with the issue in the U.S. except peripherally.

Yeah, it went very light on the American eugenics movement, which was one of the most advanced. That was disappointing, but it was very interesting to see the difference between the ideals at the core of the Russian and German concepts (intelligence vs the Greek ideal form).

I'll bet you'd enjoy this movie as well...

The Soviet Story (2008)

Here's an amazing clip. The montage of Nazi and Socialist posters at the end is very interesting indeed...

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a full version with English subtitles available online but if it interests you PM me.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Yeah, it went very light on the American eugenics movement, which was one of the most advanced. That was disappointing, but it was very interesting to see the difference between the ideals at the core of the Russian and German concepts (intelligence vs the Greek ideal form).

I'll bet you'd enjoy this movie as well...

The Soviet Story (2008)

Here's an amazing clip. The montage of Nazi and Socialist posters at the end is very interesting indeed...

Ah yes, the famous/notorious Soviet Story, claimed by one favorable reviewer to be "propaganda, but good propaganda". {c.f. "propaganda"]. I really must buy the DVD But to cite George Bernard Shaw the Irish playwright as a credible voice of socialism is rather like citing American poet Ezra Pound as an authority on fascism. Some of us, including one intelligent and politically savvy mantiseer on this forum, would take exception to the characterization of Karl Marx as a proponent of genocide on the basis of the opinion of literary critic, . His famous use of the word "Völkerabfälle" to denote what he considered were "left behind' behind or "useless rubbish" countries is, I find, no more condescending than our use of the term " third world" with its tacit assumption that we, of course, are the "first world" or the popular American phrase "poor white trash" phrase with its tacit assumption that such folks are distinct from "regular" poor trash, which is, of course, black. Nor do i find, without approving of it, his dismissal of such countries any more hostile than what I read of American attitudes toward Islamic countries every day. But of course, Germany and Russia ware political, if not ideological allies until Barbarossa.

I'm not sure what you mean by an "English translation" of Shaw's speech, which was, of course, made in English -- I suspect that I misunderstand you -- but there is a transcript of this speech, in the Listener, the publication of the BBC, Feb 7th 1934. It is archived,

And this really is fun. Please let me know if you think that we are getting slightly off topic!

 

[Precarious]

...to cite George Bernard Shaw the Irish playwright as a credible voice of socialism is rather like citing American poet Ezra Pound as an authority on fascism.

I'm not sure what you mean by an "English translation" of Shaw's speech, which was, of course, made in English -- I suspect that I misunderstand you -- but there is a transcript of this speech, in the Listener, the publication of the BBC, Feb 7th 1934. It is archived,

And this really is fun. Please let me know if you think that we are getting slightly off topic!

Shaw wasn't cited as anything other than being a member of the Left and in alignment with the idea of eugenics based on class. The point of the clips inclusion was to support the claim that the Left were very much in support of the eugenic ideas popular in Russia and Nazi Germany even if they did not support their political beliefs. Shaw was a Socialist and belonged to the Fabian Society, but maybe that means something different to me than it does to you. :blink:

I meant a full version on the film with subtitles since some portions are interviews with German- and Russian-speakers.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Shaw wasn't cited as anything other than being a member of the Left and in alignment with the idea of eugenics based on class. The point of the clips inclusion was to support the claim that the Left were very much in support of the eugenic ideas popular in Russia and Nazi Germany even if they did not support their political beliefs. Shaw was a Socialist and belonged to the Fabian Society, but maybe that means something different to me than it does to you. :blink:

I meant a full version on the film with subtitles since some portions are interviews with German- and Russian-speakers.

No, no, we agree! The Fabian Society, then in its infancy, was and still is the intellectual basis (a "think tank" now, I believe) of the socialist party. Although not nearly as well known over here, Beatrice and Sidney Webb, put the same case, with less fanfare but in much more bigoted and racial terms. No, my point, ineptly expressed, perhaps, is that to say that poor old Bernard was used in the movie because he is well known in the States, though I doubt if many could summarize his play, "Man and Superman" which encapsulated his views and was a big success in England, fails, almost certainly with intent to deceive, to point out that he was voicing a popular view in the England of the pre WWII era and not a peculiarly socialistic view.. It is well known that the Mental Deficiency Act of 1913 provided for the incarceration but not the compulsory sterilization of the "feeble minded", to use the terminology of the bill, but it was introduced by a Liberal government and among its strongest proponents were (by then) Tory Winston Churchill, an open advocate of sterilization and the Archbishops of Canterbury and York, the leaders of the Church of England. So to say that the socialists were in favor of eugenics is as true and false as to say that they were in favor (including a vehement Shaw!) of WWII. They were, and so was everyone else.

But now, all that is past and no one can be involuntarily sterilized in the U.S. And if you believe that, do I have a beautiful bridge for you! Here's a quiz mantiseers, are there any conditions in the U.S. where a "developmentally delayed' person can be sterilized against their will? Please give your state when you answer.

 

[GreenOasis]

No. I gave Carey the benefit of the doubt about knowing the meaning of the Eugenics Movement and I see no reason not to give her the same benefit for knowing the meaning of "devil's advocate". When the arguments are being made for an individual's sanctification, the church appoints a devil's advocate or Promotor Fidei

to advance the case against that individual's being beatified.He may be personally convinced of the candidate's sanctity and is arguing pro forma for the sake of a balanced discussion. Certainly it is not his role or intent to mock or revile the proponents' values or personal integrity. I understand that many companies do this at the management level, today, so give the poor woman a break. Why are we just dismissing her argument out of hand without debating it?

@Precarious: You are a scholar and a gentleman. I watched that disturbing movie that I had never heard of before through and even freeze framed bits to laboriously tackle the German text (forget the Russian!). Unfortunately, though, it did not support my assertion that the n movement was important in the US because it was prepared by Swedish, Russian and German sources, with an American voice over, and was not concerned with the issue in the U.S. except peripherally.

And now I'm off to visit my friend Angel and check out his basement. I have a 2x4 here, somewhere.....

"Devil's Advocate" here used by me as an American idiom, meaning "to say what I feel the opposing side is thinking/feeling on a particular subject." I apologize if you feel my interpretation was incorrect.

I do know well what the American Eugenics Movement was and have studied the topic, although, perhaps not as thoroughly as you have. When did you arrive in America, Phil? The Eugenics Movement sterilizations were most popular between 1907-1963. However, sterilizations were routinely carried out even later than that...mostly on the mentally-challenged. I seem to remember a made-for-TV movie back when I was young about a young woman with mild Down Syndrome who had been sterilized under this act/law/policy in...the late 60's?...who sued and won against those who authorized the sterilization. If anyone can remember the name of that movie, I'd greatly appreciate it, as I'd really love to see it again! I do know that it was our American Eugenics Movement that prompted the Nazi Party of Germany to enact their own Eugenics campaign...and did you know, our Eugenics campaign didn't become "unfashionable" until it gained favor with a certain syphilitic German dictator who took it to the next level? Our Planned Parenthood of America was started by one of the BIGGEST proponents of Eugenics in America.

My "jab" was meant for amusement, Phil...I apologize if you took it for anything but that. Though, I would appreciate if you would stop alluding to my unintelligence, as I really don't think you know me well enough to infer that. :mellow:

Back to the issue at hand...I DID watch the kids' torture video all the way through, and I do believe that the child doing the torturing has by and far "gone 'round the bend", mentally speaking, and probably has fun shoving firecrackers into toads' mouths and such, too. However, the other boy, the one taking the video, may be one of those who does these silly things as a kid (or follows the "crowd"), but doesn't end up a serial killer...just a "punk" who needs to grow up perhaps, judging by his comment responses. If you watch it all the way, through, you'll hear the boy behind the camera saying things like "Can PETA come after us for this?" "Seriously, can we get arrested?" So, obviously, he shows some concern over what is being done, but...being trained by the public school system from day one to want to "fit in", he says nothing to the other boy...who would probably only call him names if he DID try to stick up for "the bug". There is yet hope there....who knows, maybe the boy will have enough guilt over the incident to want to catch & keep one for a pet someday, and, after witnessing the "miracle of birth" (ooth production), he will begin a new generation of mantid-lovers. Stranger things have happened.

As for the kid doing the torturing..."He had YELLOW EYES. I kid you not, YELLOW EYES!" Anyone...anyone??? :huh: Scott Farkus? A Christmas Story? Too early in the year for that, I suppose. The boy behind the camera is just his "toadie".

 

[PhilinYuma]

I came to the USA, care, in 1961, and though, so far as I know,both illegal and legal sterilization of the developmentally delayed and the poor, "welfare mothers' was being practiced legally, and in the latter case illegally, in the States, these acts were not part of an organized eugenics movement. In Chicago, it was commonly believed, and from my own professional experience, highly likely, that doctors at Cook County Hospital and elsewhere, were routinely doing "OTTLs" (on the operating table after another procedure, tubal ligation) to multiparous women on welfare who had a caesarean.

In Illinois, at least when I was practicing, following a psychiatric examination of the child, a parent could give consent for the child, almost always a female, to have an irreversible TL. Tjhe issue in such cases is not eugenics but convenience and financial economy.The developmentally disabled cannot give legal consent for treatment, and the legal guardian can give consent for a DD woman to be placed on a course of DepoProvera until menopause, though in Illinois, at least residents of long care DD facilities cannot be prevented from having consensual sexual intercourse, whether fertile or not. I never saw, however, a male patient with vasectomy or orchiectomy scars.

I have never given your level of intelligence any consideration, Carey. I would expect that it is within normal range.

 

[PhilinYuma]

I came to the USA in 1961, and though, so far as I know, both illegal and legal sterilization of the developmentally delayed and the poor, "welfare mothers", was being practiced legally, and in the latter case illegally, in the States, these acts were not part of an organized eugenics movement. In Chicago, it was commonly believed, and from my own professional experience, highly likely, that doctors at Cook County Hospital and elsewhere, were routinely doing "OTTLs" (tubal ligation while the patient is still on the operating table after another procedure, ) to multiparous women on welfare who had a caesarean.<br>In Illinois, at least when I was practicing, following a psychiatric examination of the child, a parent could give consent for the child, almost always a female, to have an irreversible TL. The issue in such cases is not eugenics but convenience and financial considerations.The developmentally disabled cannot give legal consent for treatment, and the legal guardian can give consent for a DD woman to be placed on a course of DepoProvera until menopause, In Illinois, at least, residents of long care DD facilities cannot be prevented from having consensual sexual intercourse, whether fertile or not. I never saw, a male patient with vasectomy or orchiectomy scars, though

I have never given your level of intelligence any consideration, Carey. If you feel that I am insulting you in this way, please let me know the exact situation, or perhaps, notify Peter.

 

[Ricardo]

All you adults and oldies don't get it, I'm sorry to say.

You people think that we teenagers need to express ourselves and release our angry hormones.

We don't.

This video just displays two idiots. I've NEVER been in a situation where I wanted to kill something for pleasure because of my raging hormones. Teenagers aren't idiots. Like adults , there's assholes, and then there isn't.

GreenOasis, this being the teenagers first offense doesn't justify him in any way nor does it make him look any better.

Him being a teenager doesn't give him any free ticket either, since there are those of his age bracket ( like me ) who would never want to squeeze the head off of a praying mantis.

They're ###### who are barbaric and cruel, but this is NOT because they're teenagers and all teenagers are supposed to be like that. Like I said, we're like anyone else, a mix of assholes rational thinkers etc.

Teenagers don't kill things and then run off eagerly to tell their friends. This should not be tolerated or expected from anyone.