Do guns kill people or people kill people or if it's really the bullet, or the impact or damage to specific organs

[Rick]

Rick:As a veteran (combat infantryman, nbw platoon staff sergeant) of the KE, father of two volunteers who saw active duty in the US Army and Navy, one in Desert Storm, Great Uncle of an army dog handler, a sergeant on her third tour in Iraq, son of an NFS officer in WWII and grandson of an infantryman in WWI, I think that we all put our lives in forfeit simply to further the goals of our several governments, goals that had little or nothing to do with the soldiers in the field, goals which are now largely forgotten.

But you state your view with admirable civility, Rick, so I shall agree to differ with you. Those who scream the loudest about such things tend never to have seen combat. Those who most fervently proclaim our right to bear arms "for self defense" have seldom looked another man in the face and killed him with a gun or combat knife. I doubt that anyone of us who has done so with any regularity spent much time pondering about whether the gun or the bullet or the knife killed him. We did.

Thanks for your service Phil. Maybe it is due to my just getting out of bed that I am not exactly sure if you agree of disagree with me.

 

[hibiscusmile]

yea, I didn't get it either, Rick, like I said earlier people are the problem and if not a gun, then a knife, and some with bare hands, and if Looks could kill, well, I won't finish that one.

 

[Headspace]

Those who most fervently proclaim our right to bear arms "for self defense" have seldom looked another man in the face and killed him with a gun or combat knife. I doubt that anyone of us who has done so with any regularity spent much time pondering about whether the gun or the bullet or the knife killed him. We did.

Thank you for your service, Phil.

You bring up a very interesting point, regarding how people view self defense (at least when it comes to doing so at the level of lethal force) in our society, particularly the United States but even in the UK, from which our laws about self defense are derived.

It is important to point out a few things. Bringing up first and foremost that I'm not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice, etc:

1. Self defense laws have very little to do with guns, specifically, although their application often involves their use. This is why by and large the US and UK share similar "castle doctrine" laws being derived from the original British common law, yet their laws regarding who can own firearms are much different in most jurisdictions.

2. People who buy guns for self defense often, and probably most of the time, do not know the laws pertaining to (1) and ought to educate themselves, because it is critically important to the entire issue of self defense, and certainly more important than actually having a gun in the first place.

3. Whether or not you have a gun is pretty far down the list of what will determine your survival.

Now, before I continue, let me say that I've been involved in the shooting sports for awhile now, so I'm going to be biased to the RKBA side of things. I even went and became an NRA instructor so that I could teach the basic pistol course and have some level of credibility when I introduce new people to the hobby. Living in a state with onerous gun laws, I'm not convinced they really accomplish anything other than get certain politicians elected (which if you examine the issue, was the likely goal in the first place). Not that one doesn't have to obey the laws in their state--it's absolutely a requirement--but I am not convinced that they're having an appreciable effect WRT violent crime.

Even still, whether or not anyone can effectively become safer by being armed depends more on the person's level of education WRT self defense and the law, as well as their mindset, and not what kind of gun they have or what caliber it is. A person without the proper mindset has the capability to endanger not only himself, but others, even to that level which he thinks he is attempting to protect himself or his family. People who advocate for RKBA for self defense need to understand that proper education and training is the first step to being effective in this area, and thus, should seek out resources to that effect in tandem with seeking out a firearm for that purpose if they so choose.

This doesn't even touch on the issue of safety around guns, but statistically that's not a huge problem in the US despite it being harped on by the media. Most shootings are intentional, whether it is a matter of people doing it to each other, or themselves. It's still incredibly important for anyone who plans to be around firearms, and it must be practiced religiously, because such a person is not only responsible for their own safety, but the safety of those around them and those who would use them as a "role model" for proper handling of firearms.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Rick, Hibiscusmile:

Last night at about midnight, a friend and forum member, seeing that I was still on line. sent me a message saying "Go to bed!" (Gracias,Mijah!) I thought that she was concerned for my advanced years, but perhaps she was as confused by my post as you were.

So briefly:

I was impressed by your temperance, Rick, in advocating the need for the "GWOT" ("It needs to be done.") when so many advocates of the war (and some of its opponents, too!) present their case so stridently.

I do not think that it is a job that needs to be done, certainly not when it means invading sovereign countries on the basis of fabricated intelligence. I would add that American history like that of many other countries (Brits will/should remember "Jenkin's Ear") is filled with causi belli, from the sinking of the USS Maine to the Gulf of Tonkin, that were falsified stories cynically devised to push a reluctant country into war; remember the "domino theory"?

I listed my family's military service to show not our "patriotism" but the fact that we have all been involved in combats which begin to seem less and less relevant as the years go by. I have never heard any of us complain about what we did, but none of us, except, perhaps Audra, who is still in combat, believe that our participation in those conflicts ever affected the course of humanity. My and my father's and grandfather's enemies are now allies. America's enemies in Iraq and Afghanistan were our allies just a few years ago. And so it goes.

Finally I suggested that, philosophy aside, when we shoot another man dead, for what ever reason, it isn't the gun or the bullet that kills him, we do.

 

[Rick]

Rick, Hibiscusmile:Last night at about midnight, a friend and forum member, seeing that I was still on line. sent me a message saying "Go to bed!" (Gracias,Mijah!) I thought that she was concerned for my advanced years, but perhaps she was as confused by my post as you were.

So briefly:

I was impressed by your temperance, Rick, in advocating the need for the "GWOT" ("It needs to be done.") when so many advocates of the war (and some of its opponents, too!) present their case so stridently.

I do not think that it is a job that needs to be done, certainly not when it means invading sovereign countries on the basis of fabricated intelligence. I would add that American history like that of many other countries (Brits will/should remember "Jenkin's Ear") is filled with causi belli, from the sinking of the USS Maine to the Gulf of Tonkin, that were falsified stories cynically devised to push a reluctant country into war; remember the "domino theory"?

I listed my family's military service to show not our "patriotism" but the fact that we have all been involved in combats which begin to seem less and less relevant as the years go by. I have never heard any of us complain about what we did, but none of us, except, perhaps Audra, who is still in combat, believe that our participation in those conflicts ever affected the course of humanity. My and my father's and grandfather's enemies are now allies. America's enemies in Iraq and Afghanistan were our allies just a few years ago. And so it goes.

Finally I suggested that, philosophy aside, when we shoot another man dead, for what ever reason, it isn't the gun or the bullet that kills him, we do.

Thanks for the clarification Phil. When you say invading sovereign countries on the basis of fabricated intelligence I assume you mean Iraq and I would like to point out that not too much was fabricated as the media would have people believe. I am closely associated with certain members of our military that know for a fact many of the so called fabricated intelligence was factual. Saddam had WMD and that should not be a surprise as he has used them in the past. There was also a link between him and AQ contrarary to popular belief.

Do I think we should have invaded Iraq before we finished our business in Afghanistan? No. AQ is in Iraq and that is a fact. We cannot ever let our guard down because these are people who hate us and everything we stand for. This goes for our British friends too. We must track them down and destroy them wherever they may be. I just with they would let our boys take the gloves off. It saddens me that some feel this is not a job that needs to be done. My how quickly we forget as a country. I was in the military on 9/11 obviously and that day was very eye opening for me and to see our military go from a peacetime Army to an Army at war pretty much overnight was quite the experience. Yes, some things could have been handled differently but then again hindsight is always 20/20. Anyways, I am getting off topic. B)

 

[Kruszakus]

Someone here is being snide, hehehe

 

[PhilinYuma]

Someone here is being snide, hehehe

I don't think so, Kruszakus:

Just two adults presenting opposing arguments and disagreeing without calling into question their mothers' morality or the size of each others mantids.

 

[Kruszakus]

I don't think so, Kruszakus:Just two adults presenting opposing arguments and disagreeing without calling into question their mothers' morality or the size of each others mantids.

Well, but this thread is a bit idiomatic, you know - I'd actually say that its purpose it's to heckle the person whose words were paraphrazed in the topic.

And the snide bit was just my little refference to an old chat room argument

 

[idolomantis]

The people kill the people with guns.

 

[Rick]

I don't think so, Kruszakus:Just two adults presenting opposing arguments and disagreeing without calling into question their mothers' morality or the size of each others mantids.

Mine are bigger.

 

[Morpheus uk]

I stated this thread cause i came home from exams early and was bored out of my mind, saw the sentance "someone might aswell start a topic "Do guns kill people or people kill people or if it's really the bullet, or the impact or damage to specific organs"

So i thought what the heck ^^

 

[Katnapper]

And I still say you're all wrong.... it's ... well, nevermind. Hehe

 

[idolomantis]

And I still say you're all wrong.... it's ... well, nevermind. Hehe

LOL you don't know yourself

 

[PhilinYuma]

Mine are bigger.

Yeah? Well let me tell you mate, you probably measure yours in centimeters. I use inches!!

 

[Katnapper]

LOL you don't know yourself

I hate trying to answer these "chicken or the egg" questions! :wacko: So yes... I'll plead ignorance.

 

[hibiscusmile]

Mine are bigger.

Wrong again, mine are!!!! ok, u win....

I stated this thread cause i came home from exams early and was bored out of my mind, saw the sentance "someone might aswell start a topic "Do guns kill people or people kill people or if it's really the bullet, or the impact or damage to specific organs"So i thought what the heck ^^

Next time, hit the books a bit more, please.

And I totatly agree with u Rick, Thats why we lock our doors at night, and when we get in our cars, and hide our money in our shoes ( I don't do that!) because we are not safe anywhere. It's bad enough we have to worry about what country is doing what, but it is getting to be where eyes in the back of our heads are needed to. I do feel that everyone who is CAPABLE AND INTELLIGENT to a normal degree should have firearms and know how to use them, Meaning capable and intelligent is not leaving it around where children or the mentatly challanged can get to them, and they are not for the faint of heart, (if you don't intent to use it don't carry it, it will only be taken and used on you).

 

[PhilinYuma]

Wrong again, mine are!!!! ok, u win....Next time, hit the books a bit more, please.

And I totatly agree with u Rick, Thats why we lock our doors at night, and when we get in our cars, and hide our money in our shoes ( I don't do that!) because we are not safe anywhere. It's bad enough we have to worry about what country is doing what, but it is getting to be where eyes in the back of our heads are needed to. I do feel that everyone who is CAPABLE AND INTELLIGENT to a normal degree should have firearms and know how to use them, Meaning capable and intelligent is not leaving it around where children or the mentatly challanged can get to them, and they are not for the faint of heart, (if you don't intent to use it don't carry it, it will only be taken and used on you).

Do you have a CWL, Rebecca, or carry it on your hip?

 

[hibiscusmile]

I used to carry on hip, and when pregnant, shoulder holster, now where ever I want it!

 

[nasty bugger]

It's people's attitudes that kill people, the guns just make it final, and unreversible.