Earliest mating for a female?

[aNisip]

Nature isnt just a blank white canvas where mantises stick out....there is foliage and other biotic and abiotic factors...they would most likely see "the other mantis" as a food source, not another specie reproducing member...

 

[Orin]

.http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1801..like halfway through it explains the pheromone information (not gland maturation time, that is my AP BIology knowledge and i do not feel like citing an entire book... u can buy a subscription if you want to read it..it is in the development chapters...http://wps.aw.com/wps/media/access/Pearson_Default/1663/1703422/login.html)

from the first source "The female secretes a pheromone to attract and show that she is receptive to the mate."

Your entire arguement is you "know" she doesn't produce pheromones yet, but you have no evidence and you admit your sources don't have any information on when the pheromone gland matures.

 

[aNisip]

You don't have to be rude.

and you tell other people not to be rude when you immediately shut down Nick? "you should brush up on biology 101" ...please be considerate of others on this forum, Nick is a very well renowned resource in the mantis community. I have heard his name mentioned as a top source for knowledge along with Yen, not many other people... I mean no disrespect towards you orin, but i try to help you in the beginning and you quickly requestioned me about my past experience with mating females early when i was answering your question "i want to kno if anyone has been successful" and i answered with my experience....

 

[aNisip]

Your entire arguement is you "know" she doesn't produce pheromones yet, but you have no evidence and you admit your sources don't have any information on when the pheromone gland matures.

your original question deals with earliest mating of females, my information above deals with a female that will not release/produce pheromones will not attract a mate and will not allow mating to commence. i answered your original question in my very first post with my experience...i believe that is what the question asked...

 

[Orin]

and you tell other people not to be rude when you immediately shut down Nick? "you should brush up on biology 101" ...please be considerate of others on this forum, Nick is a very well renowned resource in the mantis community. I have heard his name mentioned as a top source for knowledge along with Yen, not many other people... I mean no disrespect towards you orin, but i try to help you in the beginning and you quickly requestioned me about my past experience with mating females early when i was answering your question "i want to kno if anyone has been successful" and i answered with my experience....

I had considered how to edit that answer when I posted it but to say there's no eggs inside a mature female displays a complete lack of understanding and I wasn't sure there was a nicer way to say that. I do appreciate your report but I was just asking for reports not a debate on opinions.

 

[aNisip]

Okay, now that we have gotten back on course, any one else have experience? that was a long useless argument, but i think i won...

 

[angelofdeathzz]

I had considered how to edit that answer when I posted it but to say there's no eggs inside a mature female displays a complete lack of understanding and I wasn't sure there was a nicer way to say that. I do appreciate your report but I was just asking for reports not a debate on opinions.

So your saying I have a "complete lack of understanding" and that the eggs in a freshly molted female are ready to go, full size, and could except the spermaphore, hence she could be fertilized same day as the final molt? Where's the documentation to back that up?

 

[Mime454]

I read in the book "The Praying Mantids" by Prete et al. that he waits until his mantids have laid one infertile ooth to even try to mate them(he doesn't have time for guesswork because he probably keeps thousands) so that they will definitely be ready for mating. He even mentioned(I think it would count as a scholarly source) that mating them too earlier, if successful at all, would only lead to the female digesting the male's spermatophore.

 

[Orin]

So your saying I have a "complete lack of understanding" and that the eggs in a freshly molted female are ready to go, full size, and could except the spermaphore, hence she could be fertilized same day as the final molt? Where's the documentation to back that up?

This what you wrote: "Plus, she has no eggs yet, so why would she mate?" There's no way to defend your statement except to claim it was an error.

 

[Orin]

...the eggs in a freshly molted female are ready to go, full size, and could except the spermaphore,...

Eggs don't accept a spermatophore, the female has a spermatheca which stores the sperm. This thread is a request for personal experiences from breeders not a debate on basic biology.

 

[Orin]

I read in the book "The Praying Mantids" by Prete et al. that he waits until his mantids have laid one infertile ooth to even try to mate them(he doesn't have time for guesswork because he probably keeps thousands) so that they will definitely be ready for mating. He even mentioned(I think it would count as a scholarly source) that mating them too earlier, if successful at all, would only lead to the female digesting the male's spermatophore.

Thanks, you make an excellent point: even scholarly sources can give bad advice. If anyone here suggested its necessary to wait for infertile oothecae first they'd be berated right off the board.

 

[womantis]

i am too new, so please don't "decapitate" me for my comment/thought. if i am not mistaken, the shared characteristics of dictyoptera are the wings and chewing mouthparts. however, it would seem that immediately post molt, the female mantid's teneral exoskeleton would be too vulnerable to injury by the male's sharp raptorial legs, the distinguishing feature of the order mantodea. therefore early mating would be avoided to protect the female.

 

[Mime454]

Thanks, you make an excellent point: even scholarly sources can give bad advice. If anyone here suggested its necessary to wait for infertile oothecae first they'd be berated right off the board.

He didn't say that you had to wait. He just said that he did so that he could be sure the female was fertile.

 

[gripen]

Eggs don't accept a spermatophore, the female has a spermatheca which stores the sperm. This thread is a request for personal experiences from breeders not a debate on basic biology.

It seems like there is been plenty of personal experience but you are only interested in one answer. The simple answer in my opinion is that yes it could maybe happen under extreme and controlled circumstances other than that the female will shut the male down before he can even attempt to mate.

 

[agent A]

I read in the book "The Praying Mantids" by Prete et al. that he waits until his mantids have laid one infertile ooth to even try to mate them(he doesn't have time for guesswork because he probably keeps thousands) so that they will definitely be ready for mating. He even mentioned(I think it would count as a scholarly source) that mating them too earlier, if successful at all, would only lead to the female digesting the male's spermatophore.

ok i disagree with this! i've had creobroter mate before laying ooths and the female laid a perfectly fertile ooth 3 days after mating that went on to hatch 46 nymphs

and what if there is no second ooth? what if the female lays 1 ooth then gets eggbound or infected or something and never lays any infertile ooths? it happened with me to gongies and creos

 

[brancsikia339]

I mean it could happen, but the female would most likely deny the male the chance

 

[Orin]

It seems like there is been plenty of personal experience but you are only interested in one answer.

Only a single member reported their first-hand experience. I did not ask for opinions but first-hand experience.

 

[Orin]

i am too new, so please don't "decapitate" me for my comment/thought.

Decapitation is pretty common here, it is the mantidforum after all. Your opinion is fine and I'm not saying it's wrong but the plea was for first hand experiences. I know threads go off topic here regularly so I was not surprised by a huge debate over a question I didn't ask but was hoping some people would read the original question. I also realized nobody might have experiences to report as requested.

 

[yen_saw]

Earliest mating: Second day after last molt (female), male is 3 weeks after last molt.

Species: Gongylus gongylodes

Average hatching rate for ootheca.

 

[Bug Trader]

Sounds like a controlled test is due. I have more than enough Idolos to test this theory.