Evidence for Genetic Color Determination in Mantids?

[Mime454]

I've noticed that a lot of people seem to think that mantis coloration is determined primarily by genetics. Is there any proper evidence for this, or is it just something that some members postulate?

If mantis coloration were genetically polymorphic, shouldn't we expect local genetic variation in color to quickly fade away? For example, a green ghost mantis would be horribly disguised among dead, brown foliage and vice versa for the brown variety. I'd imagine that the selection pressure to be the 'right' color would be incredibly powerful. There is obviously a variance in leaf color and liveliness in a single geographic area, but obviously some areas would have more dead leaves than living ones or the other way around.

I've seen other people speculate that mantis coloration is due to "random genetics." I don't think that this reasoning is explanatory in any way. Mutations are random, yes, but allele frequency is anything but random. If color be genetically polymorphic, it simply can't be random, because of the high selection pressure mentioned above.

I could be wrong, but I think that the results we see show pretty clearly that mantis coloration is primarily influenced by the environment. We see mantids from the same ooth turning out different colors. (By the way, if we saw this in a parthenogenic mantis, it would put the final nail in the genetic coffin, so if anyone has seen this, please speak up! ) We see green mantids on live foliage and dead ones on dead foliage(in the wild).

If there has been a study that confirms that genes are the primary determinates of color, I'd definitely be willing to change my mind though!

 

[Ntsees]

I cannot say the same for other mantid species, but for the mantids I've kept, I see that the environment determines the mantid color and is based on genes "telling" the mantid to try to match it's environment (greens leaves/brown branch). What I mean by environment is a mantid in the natural environment (i.e. outside in a bush/field and not in a tank inside a home). I say this because in the past, I've caught yellow European mantids (subadult) in the wild. There was still time before it molted into an adult and before it did, I made it live on a brown branch outside (well, a complex of brown branches that is to make it feel at home otherwise it would leave). After a week or so, it molted into a brown European mantid. In other cases, I've had a yellow European live in a green bush and the result was that it became green a week later after its molt. I must emphasize that if a mantid is going to become green, it requires time and it needs to stay on green plants for a lengthy duration (do not expect a yellow mantid to turn green by putting it on green plants right before the day it molts). Externally, the mantid will still be visually yellow, but internally, it will be producing brown chromophores that will be visible after it hardens up in the next molt.

Regarding genes (for simplicity although I'm aware there could be more sets of genes), I see 2 sets of genes: 1) recessive genes that determines what the default color the mantid will be if the mantid is not able to match the color of it's environment, and (2) dominant gene that make the mantid try to match the color of it's environment. If a mantid is living in an environment where it cannot match that color, its recessive default color will be used (green, brown, what ever, and may differ even from the same ooth) but if it's living in an environment where it can become that color, it will try to change to that color dictated by the dominant genes. In the species I raise, Iris oratoria, there are 3 general colors that it could become: green, brown, and yellow (same is also true for Mantis religiosa). Its kind of funny because in the past, even though I was aware of the species color potential, I thought I could make a red Iris oratoria. It lived in a red cage for muliple molts but never became red. Instead, it became light brown, which was that mantids default color.

But, everything I say is just based on my observations and what I've experienced and are not backed up by scientific research so you don't have to take my word for it. Experiment it out because that's what I did.

 

[Mime454]

I do this with my carolinas with interesting results. It was yellowish-brown, but I knew it was about to molt so I put a new stick in its cage that I thought was better for molting. Here's a picture immediately after the molt. Look how perfectly she matches the stick!

 

[MandellaMandy123]

Wow - that's certainly amazing how she matches! I'll hopefully be getting a parthogenic ooth from my I oratoria. (I only have one male and two females, so I'll only breed one of them) It'll be interesting to see what color they are!

 

[Mime454]

Wow - that's certainly amazing how she matches! I'll hopefully be getting a parthogenic ooth from my I oratoria. (I only have one male and two females, so I'll only breed one of them) It'll be interesting to see what color they are!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if even two different colors come from one parthenogenic ooth, it entirely disproves that genes are the primary determinates of mantis color.

 

[MandellaMandy123]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if even two different colors come from one parthenogenic ooth, it entirely disproves that genes are the primary determinates of mantis color.

I'd certainly imagine so, since parthogenic babies are clones of the parent.

 

[Rick]

I will try to hunt down a paper or two

 

[aNisip]

I'd certainly imagine so, since parthogenic babies are clones of the parent.

Parthogenic babies only have one parent, it's mother...and parthogenic offspring are clones of the mother, not always same gender but the phenotypes are subject to change by Influence of environmental colors, humidity, or the genes that restrict or allow certain colors to be displayed ...the genotypes are the cloned part and will only differ in offspring that have had some sort of mutations, like a point-mutation...

 

[Mime454]

Parthogenic babies only have one parent, it's mother...and parthogenic offspring are clones of the mother, not always same gender but the phenotypes are subject to change by Influence of environmental colors, humidity, or the genes that restrict or allow certain colors to be displayed ...the genotypes are the cloned part and will only differ in offspring that have had some sort of mutations, like a point-mutation...

I think that they always are the same gender as the mother, unless we're talking about ants or bees.

 

[MandellaMandy123]

I thought they were always the same gender too. If I do get parthogenic babies, I'll keep them all in the same environment and see what happens.

 

[Rick]

Not seeing anything in the literature.

 

[Mime454]

Not seeing anything in the literature.

As a budding Biologist, I find this exciting!

 

[Ntsees]

I thought they were always the same gender too. If I do get parthogenic babies, I'll keep them all in the same environment and see what happens.

My experience is that by keeping them in the same environment, they will all not grow evenly even though they may be clones. There will still be some that will fall behind and it could be due to different feeding routines and/or food size (one receives more nutrients than another).

 

[Mime454]

My experience is that by keeping them in the same environment, they will all not grow evenly even though they may be clones. There will still be some that will fall behind and it could be due to different feeding routines and/or food size (one receives more nutrients than another).

If there were a difference in color, that difference couldn't be genetic. If parthenogenic clones are like identical twins, the difference could be epigenetic, but it would still prove that individual color expressions are not controlled by phenotype.

 

[MandellaMandy123]

Hey check this out: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=25986&st=0&p=203670&hl=ghost&fromsearch=1entry203670

Parthogenic clones with different coloration!

 

[gripen]

Hey check this out: http://mantidforum.n...=1

Parthogenic clones with different coloration!

Parthogenic does not always mean clones! They can always mutate.

 

[MantidLord]

Was gonna say that until I scrolled all the way down. Gripen's right.

 

[Orin]

There are many things that affect color changes. I think I wrote something about successful line breeding ghosts for green a decade ago. Many animal reactions are based on multiple variables, there's not a simple on/off switch.

 

[brancsikia339]

I did it with my majusculas. When i kept them in a 32 oz deli cup with only a fake plant and a stick, they turned neon yellow with brown legs. Since then i moved them to net cages, and they've turned green.