Hierodula ooths

[Zelthan]

Hi here you can se how I incubate ooths, works pretty well just need to adjust misting depending on your place I mist them tree tmes a week

I mist the container only

 

[Rick]

That container is a bit small for even one ooth let alone how many you have in there. Do you plan on putting them in seperate containers?

 

[PhilinYuma]

Hi here you can se how I incubate ooths, works pretty well just need to adjust misting depending on your place I mist them tree tmes a week

I mist the container only

I'm just curious. Why do you mist them? Why do you mist them three times a week instead, say, of four times or once a week? How long after misting does the humidity in the pot stay higher than ambient? Do you use a substrate to retain the moisture? Have you ever tried keeping two ooths of the same species and similar age and misted one and not the other? If so, was there any difference in hatching time, success, nymph health, etc?

This isn't just for Zeth. Everyone seems to have a different misting strategy -- often these strategies differ widely, but I have never seen any explanation for them. Does the ooth, insulated and apparently water resistant, need to be misted, or do you do it to show the ooth that you love and care for it? Just asking!

 

[Zelthan]

Well, as soon as I see a nymph thats has a hardened exoskeleton. I take it out and put it in a single jar

I mist 3 times a week because the first time I misted 2 times a week and i got a creobroter ooth that produced half of the nyphs before getting wet( the other half hatched the next morning ) and another creobroter ooth had beter results misting 3 times a week,

I have a hight humidity because my mantis and ooths are keept in my fish breeding room

 

[PhilinYuma]

Well, as soon as I see a nymph thats has a hardened exoskeleton. I take it out and put it in a single jarI mist 3 times a week because the first time I misted 2 times a week and i got a creobroter ooth that produced half of the nyphs before getting wet( the other half hatched the next morning ) and another creobroter ooth had beter results misting 3 times a week,

I have a hight humidity because my mantis and ooths are keept in my fish breeding room

Well, that's a nicely reasoned answer, thank you! I kept a fish room (it ended up as a "fish basement ) for several decades, and I found that the humidity there was always in the eighties; I always had to watch out for mold showing up in odd places. YEMD, but it seems that your ooths are constantly exposed to a humidity substantially higher than mine and to that of most forum members.

I have taken a dead Chinese ooth (from Ebay!) and soaked it in water overnight. I then dried it and sliced it from top to bottom. The foam was 7mm wide on either side and the width of the ooth, 27mm (>1"). I dusted it with the contents of one of those little silica desiccant pillows which contains a moisture indicator (anhydrous CuSO4 I guess) . No water had penetrated even the outer layer of foam, so I still can't see what good misting does unless applied, perhaps, directly after eclosure has begun. Sttill, at least you based your practice on experience.

It is possible that I am totally overlooking something here. Any other rationales?

 

[Zelthan]

Well, that's a nicely reasoned answer, thank you! I kept a fish room (it ended up as a "fish basement ) for several decades, and I found that the humidity there was always in the eighties; I always had to watch out for mold showing up in odd places. YEMD, but it seems that your ooths are constantly exposed to a humidity substantially higher than mine and to that of most forum members. I have taken a dead Chinese ooth (from Ebay!) and soaked it in water overnight. I then dried it and sliced it from top to bottom. The foam was 7mm wide on either side and the width of the ooth, 27mm (>1"). I dusted it with the contents of one of those little silica desiccant pillows which contains a moisture indicator (anhydrous CuSO4 I guess) . No water had penetrated even the outer layer of foam, so I still can't see what good misting does unless applied, perhaps, directly after eclosure has begun. Sttill, at least you based your practice on experience.

It is possible that I am totally overlooking something here. Any other rationales?

I think the only reason about humidity is that the ooth caould get harder and it would be difficult for them to hatch

 

[Katnapper]

Phil, I just had a conversation about this with Mike (Hypoponera) yesterday. I had asked him how his R. basalis ooth hatched. He said it had a low hatchout that he attributed to it drying out. He said he had been sick, and had neglected to tend and mist it like he should have. (He also said he lost another ooth as well, which he thought was due to the same thing.)

In my reply, I suggested that maybe it was due to the female using up most of her stored sperm on her first fertile ooth (the one he had was her 2nd). I don't think he would mind me quoting his reply: "The giant shield ooth DID get too dry. I sliced it open lengthwise and found that many nymphs had tried to exit but got stuck. So the fault was definately mine, not your ooth."

I too believe that misting is either required, or at least helps, ooths retain moisture needed for development and essential lubrication when nymphs exit the ooth. I'm too tired to think of anything more to expand on why I believe this. I very much need to get my butt in bed! (Why did I stay up this late?!!!) But it does seem to be a commonly accepted belief and practice that supports better ooth hatching.

Oh, and I mist my ooths directly. It rains on them in nature (possibly varied amounts due to climate, etc.). And I think I have felt a difference in the texture and feel of the surface of an ooth if it is dried out... or it has been misted regularly.

Can't even read the rest of the new posts.... have to go to sleep!

 

[Rick]

You could just add something to hold in moisture. Then you might only have to mist once a week.

 

[PhilinYuma]

First, thanks to those who have answered my question. Everyone agrees that ooths should be misted (your answer, Katt, that you spray directly, because "it rains on them in nature" was identical to Mija's in a conversation we had a while back!), and everyone who mists is having a greater or lesser degree of success, so why rock the boat?

I mist every few days. I know that a 32oz (1L) pot with a paper substrate that has been spritzed, only retains a humidity higher than ambient for a few hours, so the argument must be that the ooth takes up moisturte readily but realeses it slowly. Any evidence of this? If it is true, then like a sponge, it must be capable of becoming saturated if exposed, say to tropical rains for days or weeks on end. Has anyone seen a water saturated ooth? I have not. Also, any ooth that has been outside in the Yuma area has not had a fraction of that amount of moisture. Average total rainfall beteen March 1st and May 31st is 0.4" (10mm), and yet mantids continue to hatch.

O.K. I have just ordered 9 "rare" (according to the EBay seller!) ooths, three each of Chinese, Carolina and European mantids. I'll glue each to a pot lid and divide them into three batches, each containing one ooth of each species. Batch #1 wil remain unmisted, #2 will be misted twice weekly, and #3 will have the pots loosely filled with paper towels that touch the ooth and are kept constantly wet.

An experimental population of 9 is not likely to "prove" anything, but might at least give an indication about the need for misting. A result in which all three ooths in batch #2 hatch and none of those of those in #1 and #3 did so, would provide the highest level of confidence in the misting theory, and a 100% hatch in all three would disprove it, but even Mendel wasn't that lucky (Did you know that the monks in his monastry faked his results by eliminating outliers so the results came out exactly? Naughty monks!)!

It will be a few days before the ooths arrive, so any comments on this experiment, particularly suggestions for improving the model (that don't include buying more ooths!) are very welcome.

 

[kamakiri]

Caution: Confusion ahead!

Er...I don't agree that ALL ooths need to be misted or humidified. My first I. oratoria ooth was not misted at all and it hatched out just fine. I'm not misting the second one either.

But I am certain that I need to humidify the M. religiosas here, or they will get stuck.

That said, I hang the ooths like Zeth does. For the ones that need humidity, I am using a humidity foam insert from mantisplace. sometimes, I also use an inverted tub and screen lid with wet foam and a cheap gauge inside it to help stabilize and monitor the humidity.

I've also used doubled-up solid lids with a 2" hole to limit evaporation from the ventilation holes.

I guess I need to post some pics...

 

[Katnapper]

You could just add something to hold in moisture. Then you might only have to mist once a week.

I do put one layer of paper towel, cut in a circle to fit, in the bottom of my hatching cups. It does hold some moisture for a reasonable length of time. And it also helps prevent "death by puddles" when misting after hatching.

I know only misting the inside of the container, or the substrate, and not the actual ooth itself, is something many people believe in and practice. But somehow, I just don't feel I'm really hydrating them if I don't mist the ooth itself. In my mind, the water needs to make physical contact with the surface of the ooth. I'm not saying I'm right... it's just what I believe. And it seems to work well for me.

Interesting experiment, Phil! I look forward to hearing your observations during the experiment, and your results at the conclusion. In describing treatment of #2, do you mean to mist the ooth directly, or indirectly (inside the container, but not actually misting the ooth's surface? That would also be a point I would be interested in. And one thing with how you plan to set up #3... If it were me, I wouldn't let the damp paper towel touch or stay in contact with the ooth. If they are constantly in contact, I think there is a good chance the ooth might likely just mold.

 

[Zelthan]

I dont mist them directly because of the fungus growth I have a a lot of moisture in that room air, do you know what is the chemical composition of the ooths?

 

[PhilinYuma]

I do put one layer of paper towel, cut in a circle to fit, in the bottom of my hatching cups. It does hold some moisture for a reasonable length of time. And it also helps prevent "death by puddles" when misting after hatching. I know only misting the inside of the container, or the substrate, and not the actual ooth itself, is something many people believe in and practice. But somehow, I just don't feel I'm really hydrating them if I don't mist the ooth itself. In my mind, the water needs to make physical contact with the surface of the ooth. I'm not saying I'm right... it's just what I believe. And it seems to work well for me.

Interesting experiment, Phil! I look forward to hearing your observations during the experiment, and your results at the conclusion. In describing treatment of #2, do you mean to mist the ooth directly, or indirectly (inside the container, but not actually misting the ooth's surface? That would also be a point I would be interested in. And one thing with how you plan to set up #3... If it were me, I wouldn't let the damp paper towel touch or stay in contact with the ooth. If they are constantly in contact, I think there is a good chance the ooth might likely just mold.

Thanx, Katt!

If you and Mija mist directly onto the ooths, "because they get rained on in nature," then I shall do the same. I did point out to her, though, that rabbits also get rained on in nature but that I have never seen anyone misting their rabbits in captivity. She waa Not Amused.

I shall also put in a paper towel substrate. I usually put in four layers (I just fold one towel; I'm too lazy to cut it into four) and I do know that the humidity in the pot returns to ambient in 7-9 hours after misting, depending on the type of lid. So if you spray twice a week, the moisture level is the same as ambient for about 90% of the time.

In #3, as you say, the ooth should become moldy, and if the moisture penetrates to the eggs, they should be moldy, too. If not, it would appear that the moisture isn't reaching them. Has anyone seen a waterlogged ooth or one where mold penetrated to the eggs?

I have no problem with the practice of misting and shall continue to follow it unless it is proven useless (my simple experiment will not do that, though it might give direction for future experiments), but I do have a huge theoretical objection, which so far, no one has been able to refute (perhaps because I haven't stated it clearly!), and it is this.

The two primary purposes of an ooth are to protect the fragile eggs within from phyical contact with the environment, including predators, and from cold. Anyone who has cut open a big ooth must have been struck by the material's similarity to sealed cell poly foam insulation. and the problem with that is moisture penetration. If moisture can penetrate to the eggs, then the foam has lost its heat insulating properties, simple as that, and a wild ooth in the Frozen North part of the US will be frozen solid. Furthermore, if the cells contained sufficient moisture before freezing, the cells would rupture when ice crystals formed.

O.K. folks. Refute my specious argument, so that I can sleep peacefully tonight!

Zeth: The material is mostly protein.