How to stop a mantis from vomiting?

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ismart said:
I'm sorry Zoe. :( I guess it was to late. In the future if you find one of your mantids start to vomit. Take it out of it's enclousure and place it somewhere the ventilation is good. Give it some water, and don't feed it for awhile. I have manged to save quite a few mantids this way.
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+1

 
Thank you all for your help, and in the future should any of my other mantises start vomiting, I will most definitely act ALOT sooner, and I'm sorry for not helping poor Brutal sooner.

You all really do have good advice.

Phil: Stool testing? Viral infection? Pathology? Sounds like SOMEBODY is l-y-i-n-g!

 
PhilinYuma said:
No. Zoe, I wasn't sweet and kind to poor Oliver, who, after asking for advice on this forum and receiving a lot of good suggestions from Rick and others, explicitly dismissed them in favor of his vet (!), who said, I believe , that the mantis will live or die, and his brother's pathologist who will test his mantids' stool for, among other things, "viral infection"(!)As you have discovered, mantids, like other insects, can malfunction in ways that confound us and that would kill the insect in nature. When you start reading books on entomology, you will find that no one is funding research on mantis maladies and that therefore, there is no scientific information on them. Initially, Oliver described an isolated case that appeared to have nothing to do with infection, but subsequent information suggested that it certainly is.

Most of us, including Rebecca and Rick, who gave suggestions in this case, usually only have isolated cases of premature mantis death. Oliver is unusual in that he is experiencing an epidemic. Whether an epidemic occurs in a town, hospital (very common!) or bug room, human error, i.e. bad husbandry, is almost always to blame. Bacterial infections, particularly, are virtually always due to conditions that allow bacterial contagion. Frederick Prete summarizes this nicely in his The Praying Mantids: "Disease can pose a threat, and some facilities have lost entire cultures to infections (in some cases, possibly introduced by crickets from commercial suppliers). Disease is unusual, however, and reasonable cleanliness, moderate humidity, and quarantine of new arrivals will minimize risk." p.315.

Most of us can neither afford nor need the luxury of a culture, though it might point the way to avoiding a repetition of the problem, and we sometimes endanger our healthy stock by keeping a mantis alive that should probably be destroyed. In Oliver's case, destruction of his entire stock and sterilization or replacement of all equipment is probably the best way to proceed. This, obviously, does not apply to you and your isolated case, and I seriously doubt that your little guy carries an infectoion.

So there you have it. I must admit, though, that I regret suggesting to Oliver that he start collecting tie pins. He lives in a country that boasts the supremely collectible Limoges china.....
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I guess you have not read the right books... I cannot let you spread the idea that "...no one is funding research on mantis maladies and that therefore, there is no scientific information on them."

Example of a thorough book about insect pathology (568 pages) :

The principles of insect pathology

Auteur(s) : BOUCIAS

Date de parution: 08-1998

Langue : ANGLAIS

568p. 22.9x15.3 Hardback

Etat : Disponible chez l'éditeur (délai de livraison : 10 jours)

Résumé

Principles of Insect Pathology, a text written from a pathological viewpoint, is intended for graduate-level students and researchers with little background in microbiology and in insect diseases. The book explains the importance of insect diseases and illuminates the complexity and diversity of insect--microbe relationships. Separate sections are devoted to + the major insect pathogens, their characteristics, and their life cycles + the homology that exists among invertebrate, vertebrate, and plant pathogens + the humoral and cellular defense systems of the host insect as well as the evasive and suppressive activities of insect disease agents + the structure and function of passive barriers + the heterogeneity in host susceptibility to insect diseases and associated toxins + the mechanisms regulating the spread and persistence of diseases in insects. Principles of Insect Pathology combines the disciplines of microbiology (virology, bacteriology, mycology, protozoology), pathology, and immunology within the context of the insect host, providing a format which is understandable to entomologists, microbiologists, and comparative pathologists.

Sommaire

Preface. 1. Insect-Pathogen Relationships. 2. General Features of Viral Disease Agents. 3. Major Groups of Insect Viruses. 4. Baculoviruses. 5. Characteristics of the Pathogenic Prokaryotes. 6. Insect Pathogenic Bacteria. 7. Bacillus Thuringiensis: Producer of Potent Insecticidal Toxins. 8. General Properties of Fungal Pathogens. 9. Entomopathogenic Fungi: `Perfect' Phyla. 10. Entomopathogenic Fungi: Fungi Imperfecti. 11. Insect Pathogenic Protozoa. 12. Phylum Microsporidia. 13. Insect Immune Defense System, Part I: Innate Defense Reactions. 14. Insect Immune Defense System, Part II: The Recognition of Nonself. 15. Insect Immune Defense System, Part III: Prophenoloxidase Cascade and post-Attachment Processes of Phagocytosis

Thèmes :

* Productions animales - elevage - peche / Zoologie, entomologie

I work in research on human diseases. As models for human diseases, we use genetically modified mice. The mice we work on are kept in two kinds of animal facilities : one is called "conventional facility", the other is named "SPF" (specific pathogene free) facility. In the conventional animal facilities, whatever the care provided to the mice and the precautions taken, we now that sooner or later, our mice will be contaminated, and the rate and of contamination will increase with time, leading not only to the deaths of individuals and sometimes to the loss of a whole lineage depending on the degree of pathogeneity of the germ, but also to what we call "scientific bias" (interference of a pathogene agent upon the results of an experiment).

On the other hand, mice can be kept in "SPF" facilities. In those facilities, the animals get in via embryonic transfer, which is THE guaranty to get germ-free mice. But in order to keep the germ-free status of our animals, A LOT of state-of-the-art machinery is used (the animals are NEVER exposed to the air, they are manipulated under "vertical air-flow changing stations" (see picture) according to very strict proceedings that the staff have to respect (I will not give full account of all these procedings, for that would take 4 pages), the mice are kept in closed cages put on ventilated racks, the airflox is filtered throuh "HEPA" (High Efficiency Particulate Absorbing) filters,...

All that to point out that whatever care is provided to ANY captive-bred animal, the contamination will just be delayed or limited, but there will come a time when the mantids WILL be contaminated by a pathogene and die (some of them might already have died from a disease, but you did not think about it as it was an "isolated case). So you can pride yourself of having apparently healthy mantids at the moment, your mantids WILL die from diseases one day or another, so much so as mantids are insects that eat other insects (sometimes belonging to the same Orthopteroidea genius, thereby increasing the risks of cross-contamination as the closer the species, the higher the risks that some germ may infect and develop in both species). Whatever the care you treat your husbandry with, the idea that your insects will never be contaminated is pure imagination and mere illusion. "reasonable cleanliness, moderate humidity" will work for some time, but NOT forever.

Regards,

Oliver



Mice air-flow station. The animals are NEVER exposed to the air :

8l4v7410.jpg


Airtight-closed cageing system :

tecnip10.jpg


Cages on an air-ventilated rack equipped with "HEPA" filters :

cages10.jpg


 
revmdn said:
Idolomantis, something we should know? :huh:
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Yes, actually.

This guy has been on other forums aswell, starting arguements. He left there and now he's here to do the same.

He left because people wouldn't agree with his ideas, people who have been doing this for many years.

 
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I know this is going to sound strange. I have a theroy. Of course i have no facts and scientific proff to back this up, but here it goes. I have come to the conclusion this is not a form of diease that can be passed from insect to insect, but rather a form of rot. I have noticed only very fat mantids will vomit a day later after eating more than it can handle. I believe the vomit is decomposing food that the mantid was not able to digest and absorb in a timely fashion. This would also acount fo the horrible smell. The thing that gets me is i'm able to simulate this at any time with Rhombodera sp., and P. wahlbergii.

 
ismart: That is very interesting! I'd suggest experimentation but I don't wanna upset your mantises.

Idolo: thank you for the warning!

Edenmantis: If you are here to start arguments I suggest you leave. Also, I'll take experience from people who've been keeping mantids for years rather than some guy who just joined and what the hellfire do mice in cages have to do with vomiting mantids?

 
idolomantis said:
Yes, actually.This guy has been on other forums aswell, starting arguements. He left there and now he's here to do the same.

He left because people wouldn't agree with his ideas, people who have been doing this for many years.
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Thanks for the info.

 
ZoeRipper said:
Thank you all for your help, and in the future should any of my other mantises start vomiting, I will most definitely act ALOT sooner, and I'm sorry for not helping poor Brutal sooner. You all really do have good advice.

Phil: Stool testing? Viral infection? Pathology? Sounds like SOMEBODY is l-y-i-n-g!
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Not a lie, not a joke. Stool testing is called "coproculture". If one day you suffer from gastro-intestinal symptoms (which I wish you NOT), you GP may ask you to take a sample of your stool and take it to a lab. Besides, insect pathology DOES exist (bacteria, viruses, fungi, protozoans). It is a common subject in entomological research, the goal being to find germs or toxines produced by germs that could be passed from a "harmless" insect to an insects considered as "pest". Each year, 1/3 of the worldwide crops (agricultural production) is eaten by insects !

Regards,

O.

 
ismart said:
I know this is going to sound strange. I have a theroy. Of course i have no facts and scientific proff to back this up, but here it goes. I have come to the conclusion this is not a form of diease that can be passed from insect to insect, but rather a form of rot. I have noticed only very fat mantids will vomit a day later after eating more than it can handle. I believe the vomit is decomposing food that the mantid was not able to digest and absorb in a timely fashion. This would also acount fo the horrible smell. The thing that gets me is i'm able to simulate this at any time with Rhombodera sp., and P. wahlbergii.
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A very interesting analysis.

 
edenmantis said:
Not a lie, not a joke. Stool testing is called "coproculture". If one day you suffer from gastro-intestinal symptoms (which I wish you NOT), you GP may ask you to take a sample of your stool and take it to a lab. Besides, insect pathology DOES exist (bacteria, viruses, fungi, protozoans). It is a common subject in entomological research, the goal being to find germs or toxines produced by germs that could be passed from a "harmless" insect to an insects considered as "pest". Each year, 1/3 of the worldwide crops (agricultural production) is eaten by insects !Regards,

O.
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I'm perfectly aware that stool testing is real, but to test mantis stool is purely STUPID. Honestly, besides you, who else on the forum sees their mantis vomiting, and thinks "Holy beaten prostitute, Batman! I better find one of their tiny poops and call all the vets around and see who'll test it!"? I sure don't. Also, I don't appreciate you telling us all that it's inevitable for a mantis to die of illness. You're obviously trollin' and I suggest you STOP.

 
idolomantis said:
Yes, actually.This guy has been on other forums aswell, starting arguements. He left there and now he's here to do the same.

He left because people wouldn't agree with his ideas, people who have been doing this for many years.
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Yes, especially when I disagreed with the fact that moulting was influenced by humidity rate, and I had to post pictures showing my mantids had moulted successfully at only around 35% humidity, and yet 2 breeders did not believe me ! Or when I observed several successful matings with my freshly moulted Hymenopus females (4 to 10 days after their final moult), and I showed them the empty spermatophore I had found (THE evidence that successful mating did take place in spite of the young age of the females), and yet, they said I was "nuts" or a liar. Not that people would not agree with my ideas as Idolomantis put it, but they would not agree with the facts I brought to their eyes. So I said to myself that I was not going to bring them evidence that I am not a mythomaniac by asking for a psychiatric assessment and posting it on the forum (anyway, I'm sure they would have questioned the authenticity of the paper) . That's why I decided to quit this forum. So I repeat, the problem did not lie in some people not agreeing with my opinions (which everyone is free to do as an opinion does not necessarily reflect the truth, and so it CAN be questioned), but in some stubborn people not believing what their eyes could see. Am I to blame for that ???

Now, if my presence of this forum annoys, please let me know, and I'll leave the forum. Anyway, if I feel that I am perceived as being too controversial, I will leave the forum by myself, so please do not worry.

Freshly moulted Deroplatys desiccata. Humidity 23% :

dscn4824.jpg


Moulting female Hymenopus coronatus :

dscn4531.jpg


Successful moulting afew minutes later. Humidity rate : around 35% :

dscn4532.jpg




Mating pair of Hymenopus coronatus Male aged 17 days, freshly moulted female aged 7 days, taking place at dusk:

dscn4722.jpg




Spermatophore found in the morning :

dscn4825.jpg


 
ZoeRipper said:
I'm perfectly aware that stool testing is real, but to test mantis stool is purely STUPID. Honestly, besides you, who else on the forum sees their mantis vomiting, and thinks "Holy beaten prostitute, Batman! I better find one of their tiny poops and call all the vets around and see who'll test it!"? I sure don't. Also, I don't appreciate you telling us all that it's inevitable for a mantis to die of illness. You're obviously trollin' and I suggest you STOP.
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Who are you, you, brainless little teen girl, to say that I'm stupid and to order me to STOP ??? Do you think I have lessons to receive from a stupid teen like you who knows nothing about life ? I am a 38-year man with a doctorate in English literature and a master's degree in biology. So shut you effing mouth, take your teddy bear, and go to bed.

 
ZoeRipper said:
I'm perfectly aware that stool testing is real, but to test mantis stool is purely STUPID. Honestly, besides you, who else on the forum sees their mantis vomiting, and thinks "Holy beaten prostitute, Batman! I better find one of their tiny poops and call all the vets around and see who'll test it!"? I sure don't. Also, I don't appreciate you telling us all that it's inevitable for a mantis to die of illness. You're obviously trollin' and I suggest you STOP.
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I don't care what you appreciate or not. Who do you think you are to talk like this ? The Queen of England ? As a famous person , you'd rather remind me of Paris Hilton.

 
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Edenmantis, I think you are needlessly insulting and argumentative to anyone who disagrees with you. Please take your childish drama elsewhere, as it's not appreciated here. And yes, I am older than you. I also have a BA in English, but it didn't teach me to think my views are any better than anyone else's on here. Your behavior here is coarse, arrogant, and pitiful, considering your age and academic achievements.

 
Thanks again, Idolo. This one is the nastiest troll that I can remember on this forum. I don't know how to cure his mantids' "infection", but I do know how to cure his particular infection. Isolation is the key, and I shall start in just a moment.

Zoe: You have nicer pets than the Queen of England and are both cuter and brighter, I believe, than Ms. Hilton. Don't waste your time! :D

Wow Oliver! What are the odds against that! I, too have a PhD in English (dissertation: A "prophetic" reading of the iconography in Blake's Vergil woodcuts, NWU) but only a measly BS in biology (UICC). What fun we could have had!

 
Deleted the worst in this post. Edenmantis was banned as stated in the post below:

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?s=...st&p=122658

Now re-opening the topic out of consideration for the people that took the time to reply. Nice to see members sticking up for each other and in a respectful way!

Thanks for your patience as we worked through the muck.

 

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