ThorEH
Well-known member
are you really this arrogant ??
You really surprise me now Scott ! But if that's the way you want to go, so be it..
Idolomantis diabolica
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You really surprise me now Scott ! But if that's the way you want to go, so be it..
Isnt this getting blown just a bit out of porportion?
Regardless of who is right here, human nature is to dislike being disagreed with , much less being wrong.
Both Christian and Scott handled their discussion more aggressively than was necessary, but that is not any reason for people to get angry or start taking sides.
Now lets try to keep this discussion on topic... Idolomantis diabolica
Regardless of who is right here, human nature is to dislike being disagreed with , much less being wrong.
Both Christian and Scott handled their discussion more aggressively than was necessary, but that is not any reason for people to get angry or start taking sides.
Now lets try to keep this discussion on topic... Idolomantis diabolica
My findings on the subject at hand...
http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?sh...&st=0
More importantly:
My investigations have led me to some worthwhile information. It was found that most insects, when subjected to constant periods of whatever light cycle produced the most activity (light for day active insects, and dark for nocturnal insects) ther level of activty remained almost constant with the level of light, and for some insects abnormal periods of light or dark resulted in dramatically shortened mating periods. Furthermore, in some insects, when the ocelli were destroyed or covered up the test subjects resulted in gradual loss of natural rythim, whereas covering the compound eyes and leaving the ocelli intact had little effect. In other insects the results were exactly opposite. Meanwhile if test subjects had both compound eyes and the ocelli covered or destroyed, their rhytihm stabilized at 12/12 active / inactive, unaffected by light conditions in the subjects environment.
http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?sh...&st=0
More importantly:
My investigations have led me to some worthwhile information. It was found that most insects, when subjected to constant periods of whatever light cycle produced the most activity (light for day active insects, and dark for nocturnal insects) ther level of activty remained almost constant with the level of light, and for some insects abnormal periods of light or dark resulted in dramatically shortened mating periods. Furthermore, in some insects, when the ocelli were destroyed or covered up the test subjects resulted in gradual loss of natural rythim, whereas covering the compound eyes and leaving the ocelli intact had little effect. In other insects the results were exactly opposite. Meanwhile if test subjects had both compound eyes and the ocelli covered or destroyed, their rhytihm stabilized at 12/12 active / inactive, unaffected by light conditions in the subjects environment.
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bugzilla
Well-known member
Well said that man
. There are many different ways that people keep their pets and none are natural. Provided they are in good health that's all that matters!As for the diabolicas, why are they regarded as so difficult? Is it just a temperature thing? They are on my wanted list so I need all the info I can get.
i'm sure we would all agree with this, but thats what the whole disagreement is about, whether or not certain conditions are good and healthy for mantids.
anyway, those are some interesting links, thanks.
That is where the mantis specific information becomes very important. We already know that temperature alone can lengthen or shorten a mantids lifespan, but that is because it affects them all the way down to the metabolic level. However physical activity and metabolic rate are entirely different.
As I stated earlier, with some insects (for example nocturnal cockroaches) when light was never apparent in their environment, they stayed in a constant level of activity. While this didnt have a negative effect on their health, it should be noted that this is a natural condition in the wild, as cockroaches tend to dwell in dark places and some rarely see high levels of light intensity anyway. Other species of insects are able to maintain their own rhythim regardless of changes in light intensity. Mantids on the other hand, especially the ambush type are a little more complex. Regardless of light, their level of "activity" is still amost none until another outside variable comes into play... motion detection. Some mantids will sit in one place otherwise totally inactive until they sense movement that catches their attention, either in the form of prey or predator/danger of some sort. Even though they are on a circadian rhythim, their activity level does not seem to be affected much by light.
I have however inadvertantly discovered the consequenses of keeping a mantid in near constant activity. It is rather embarrasing, and I had not planned on sharing this, but because it is so relevant it seems I have no choice...
Some time ago I had ordered a cup full of houseflys from Rebecca. The houseflies were intended to feed two male ghosts, one of which was an adult and the other a sub.
Since none of my other mantids were big enough to eat them I made the mistake of placing the whole cup of housefly casters in the large ghost inclosure. They all hatched out and before I knew it the ghosts were swarmed with flies. They ate their fill at first and seemed happy, but soon the flies became unthreatened by the mantids and were literally crawling all over them. This seemed to annoy the mantids to no end, and before I realized what was happening the constant level of activity maintained by the annoying flys caused the health of the two ghosts to diminish rapidly. Within just two days the ghosts had gone from healthy to dying... Neither of them recovered
It is my conclusion then, that while light levels may or may not disrupt some mantids natural rhythim, and therefore have an effect on their health, constant activity definitely does have an impact. Granted this will vary from species to species, but I believe that in regards to I. Diabolica, which is also an ambush type, any more than intermittant activity caused by over frequent feeding may be exhausting for them as well.
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Villosa
Well-known member
I hope that was what I was trying to get across earlier too, though not as well put. Good stuff Darkspeed! Photoperiod may not have that large of an impact but there is no such thing as a non-heat producing light and I think that's where the problem was that Christian was trying to get across. It's like a car, keeping the engine idle (ex: keeping the mantis' photoperiod constant) certainly allows the engine to last longer than if it was running on the freeway nonstop with constant refueling (constant activity from heat). Eventually it catches up and the engine breaks down (the mantis dies). It's all speculation but stories of exhaustion from over activity isn't new, it's always been there
a constant light level may not be very significant in influencing the mantids' activities but it is a NECESSITY in some species, in this case Idolomantis. to encourage sexual interests between adults. Even though the mantid may moult to adult with no obvius defects, denying adults of a circadian rhythm will most definitely result in a sexually uninterested male. Field and lab studies have shown that most matings in Mantis reliogisa (i think) occured during dusk when the light level was the same intensity as 2 candles (although, i'll need to confirm this). It has aslo been noted that the highest frequency of female calling activity occurred after dusk in Hierodula paterllifera. Furthermore, Wild males were found on the cages of calling females at night, suggesting that male H. patellifera search for mates preferably at night. It is clear that mantids mating behaviour is dictated by the circadian rhythm, and refusing to accept potential indirect fitness effects inflicted on the mantid being denied the natural circadian rhythm is somewhat naive and ignorant.
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I dont think Christian was trying to get across the effect of a constant light source on growth and 'exhaustion from over activity' but rather the effect of the constant diurnal rhythm on the sexual behaviour of Idolomantis diabolicum.
One final thing, rasiing a mantid form nymph to adult is easy; the difficulties lie in stimulating sexual interests in the adults, which is why there are only a handful of breeders that have been able to maintain this species in culture for several generations whilst many have failed. I for one would listen and note down very carefully the conditions these breeders created for their Idolomantis and to simulate this.
Although, everyone is different
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Villosa
Well-known member
Yes! That is the other good point. Are we disrupting their activities significantly if we deny them of a rotating, natural, photoperiod? I'd like to agree that since nature is thriving with a dark and light photoperiod, then what's the harm with not keeping that same photoperiod while in captivity? If it works, why fix it right? Plus now we might even have issues with photoperiod with mating/calling, maybe even frquency of oothecea being deposited, production of eggs etc etc. Good stuff.
EDIT: Oh yes Chun, you are right it seems, I had to go back a bit to read more, I forgot what was said in the many pages here and there
EDIT: Oh yes Chun, you are right it seems, I had to go back a bit to read more, I forgot what was said in the many pages here and there
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MantidLord
Well-known member
...I know this may not be good for exotic species, but why not just let the mantids live in your setup wthout any special lightings? I have mine just stay in my room, and when it's dark here, it's dark for the mantids, and vice versa. Although I only have native species. But MJ will find out if he is doing the right thing or not, so there's nothing we can really do about it. I never want to get an I. Diabolica, cause I'm satisfied with my (somewhat plain) I. oratoria. Though I do hope breeders will be successful in bringing back the idolomantis. See ya.
BTW, I love reading the info you post christian (even if I need a dictionary), and I take the info to heart, so if I ever get a "complex" sp, I'd know something. So please don't feel ignored. And I also love looking at MJ's photos, so as long as he takes care of the Mantids, and breeds them, It's okay, so don't diss his work. Thanks guys, and remember, lets not get mad at each other, as long as we are here for the same reasons.
BTW, I love reading the info you post christian (even if I need a dictionary), and I take the info to heart, so if I ever get a "complex" sp, I'd know something. So please don't feel ignored. And I also love looking at MJ's photos, so as long as he takes care of the Mantids, and breeds them, It's okay, so don't diss his work. Thanks guys, and remember, lets not get mad at each other, as long as we are here for the same reasons.
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I did never say anything about any photos of anyone. I am just finished with this species here. This decision is for good. Everything important was said about this species, the ones who are really interested should find the information. Repeating the stuff over and over again and getting such answers just doesn't fit together. There are enough other topics left.
Rob Byatt
Well-known member
It is good that you take the advice given, but the reason Christian is not giving advice anymore doesn't have much to do with being ignored (it's not a personal emotion), but simply because it gets annoying typing the same thing over and over, yet people keep making the same mistakes.
Good advice is given at the expense of often very busy people; it should be listened to
macro junkie
Dead Leaf Mantis
bugzilla
Well-known member
That video is so cool . How'd you get him to do that without flying away?
. How'd you get him to do that without flying away?
macro junkie
Dead Leaf Mantis
1 min after that he did..he does that alot tho..il get him out the cage..put him on my hand..and he will flap his wings like u saw in the video for about 1 min..then he flew off..i had all windows and doors shut..That video is so cool
Birdfly
Well-known member
Heres my old female from last year doing a similar thing, she flew too but only about a metre and a half and more or less downwards :mellow:
http://s124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Bir...ightmuscles.flv
http://s124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Bir...ightmuscles.flv
macro junkie
Dead Leaf Mantis
i saw that vid ages ago..i rember thinking "i hope mine does that"
great vidoe..love there cage..are u still breeding these?
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