Is my mantid's butt too big??? It's time for Weight Watchers!

[LLCoolJew]

Sometimes when we try to appease others, we end up hurting the ones we love most. Poor Jemima has developed an obesity problem, due to my overfeeding her. I've been giving her one, (sometimes two!) BB flies per day, as well as fruit flies. Yes, I'm an enabler. I admit it! But she takes the food when it's offered. And I really love watching her eat!

Below is a photo of my beloved cilnia humeralis, hanging upside down from a plant. As you can see, her abdomen is creating a great deal of weight. AND, to make matters worse, she is missing a leg, so she has one less limb to support her while she hangs! She has trouble picking herself up and getting around, and I may need to get get her a wheelchair:

:wheelchair:

It is obvious that Jemima needs to go on a diet, yes? What is the best way to go about cutting back on her intake so that it is not harmful or shocking to her system?

Much thanks!

Lauren

:chef:

 

[Rick]

You could cut back a bit. The abdomen isn't as fat as it can get though. When she is adult she will be very, very fat adn you should not cut back then. I don't know what you mean by shocking her system. Just feed a little less, no secret to this. I don't think she is too fat though.

 

[lancaster1313]

You could cut back a bit. The abdomen isn't as fat as it can get though. When she is adult she will be very, very fat adn you should not cut back then. I don't know what you mean by shocking her system. Just feed a little less, no secret to this. I don't think she is too fat though.

+1

She looks well fed to me.

 

[minard734]

Bwahaha!

 

[LLCoolJew]

Oh. So you're saying her butt is NOT big. She'll be thrilled to hear.

I had posted another pic of her in the health section about another matter and everyone said she was too big.

Thanks.

 

[lancaster1313]

Her butt looks great to me.

"I like big butts and I can not lie". :lol:

 

[ismart]

She is fine!

 

[lunarstorm]

Oh. So you're saying her butt is NOT big. She'll be thrilled to hear.

I had posted another pic of her in the health section about another matter and everyone said she was too big.

Thanks.

I told you it wasn't a big deal in that thread! Have fun feeding her, she obviously enjoys eating!

 

[gripen]

she is a bid big for 3 legs but as long as she is still eating it is up to her.

 

[PhilinYuma]

kova

Well, LL I think that you got the answer to yr question absolutely right. She is definitely too fat, and it won't do much good for everyone to say "bad luck" when she mismolts. Did she lose her leg to a mismolt, BTW? If she is taking BBs, she doesn't need FFs. Limit her to one BB a day and see if life gets easer for her. Unfortunately, we tend to show our love for our mantids in the same way that we show it for our kids. According to the CDC, aproximately 17% of US kids (2-19yrs) are currently obese.

So how could being "overweight" cause a mismolt. I have seen nothing on this in the literature, but here's a hypothesis (OK, an educated guess.

As some folks have noticed recently, there is a layer of "skin", the arthrodial membrane, that bears the protective segmental plates called sclerites. In some insects, like honeypot ants and queen bees, this allows the abdomen to dramatically increase in size, and we see this to a lesser extent in female mantinds. But the ability to "swell' serves relatively little purpose in growing mantids, and if the nymph is "overweight" the arthrodial membrane may be streched to its maximum or close to it, and the mantis will start to vomit after a big meal.

Now, when a mantis is preparing to molt, it grows a new arthrodial membrane, scelrites and all, under the old one. When it comes time to molt, the mantis takes in moisture through its mouth which increases the hemolymph (insect blood) volume. With the help of this increased volume and muscular contraction, it can expand the circumference of its body and then reverse the process when it expells the excess fluid and relaxes its muscles.. The nymph is now described as "pharate" with a supple new skin below the stiff old one. When the nymph's overall size is reduced due to the loss of fluid, the new skin contracts with it while the old skin, the exuvium, remais expanded, thus causing the two skins to seperate and the newly molted mantis to step out of its old skinin the process called ecdysis, or, if it is the last molt, eclosion.

So, if both the new and old skins are already expanded to the max due to over eating, taking in fluid will make no or too little difference in size, and the new inner skin will not be able to pull away fully from the old one, causing a mismolt. In order to demonstrate this convincingly, one would have to compare molting success of an overfed and a control group, and there are other factors, like humidity or physical disturbance that are commonly associated with mismolts, though a fourth factor, falling during a molt may also be promoted by excess weight.. I can say, though, that I currently have 50 plus nymphs of different species in individual pots at much less than tropical humidity and that none is overfed and only one has mismolted in the past three months.

I don't know whether this helps, but it's interesting, isn't it?

 

[angelofdeathzz]

Thank you again Dr Phil, I feel the same way about a possible mismolt in pre adults due to being to chunky, but you said it better than I could.

I told LL she was over weight before, but if you get 10 people, you may get 10 different answers, so who do you believe? The smart ones of course! ^_^

 

[kmsgameboy]

Shes not fat....she is pleasently plump. :lol:

 

[gripen]

+1 to what phill said.

 

[jrh3]

We need a comparision pic got any other butt pics to compare, lol.

 

[LLCoolJew]

PHIL!!!! THANK YOU!!!! What amazing information to have. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your taking the time to share that. Since everyone seemed to say her butt looked lovely, I thought that I was over reacting. But now, after reading the above, I can see that its something to take seriously.

No, her leg was lost due to an infection she had just a few days after she arrived (as an L6). She chewed off her own leg, the poor dear! I am hoping that it grows back, but am concerned about a mismolt when she tries to defy gravity on three legs.

Thanks again, Phil! I shall a keep you posted!

My best,

Lauren (and Jemima)

 

[lancaster1313]

She will "most likely" diet all by herself (fasting and frassing to make herself lighter)for a few days before molting, whether she is offered food or not.

 

[angelofdeathzz]

Likebugs is more than likely spot on with her above post, she always seems to know her stuff!

 

[lancaster1313]

Likebugs is more than likely spot on with her above post, she always seems to know her stuff!

I haven't been in the hobby as long as some who have posted, but in my experience, especially in the late instars, mantids tend to fast for quite a while in preparation of a molt.

Nobody is perfect, and I understand that there can always be exceptions, but most mantids know what to do.

I figure if I had to try to control exactly how much they can eat because I am afraid of them exploding, or something like that, it wouldnt be very fun for me to raise them(I worry enough as it is). I am sure that it would be very difficult to force them to over eat when they are preparing for a molt. I will try to "fill up" adult females before I introduce males, hoping that I won't lose the male, but that is no guarantee anyway and sometimes they won't even get very fat.

Sometimes early instar nymphs can get real fat with a "scary shiny look", and I do believe that that may very well cause some problems that Phil hypothesized(I like the logic that he posted about that). I just don't see how that can be controlled without overcomplicating things for me, I don't really have time to give them one ff at a time (especially if they start out in one large container before separation) , or force tiny nymphs to drop that extra fly. LOL

I have only had problems involving the wings or legs for the final molts and I believe that it was more to do with container design, and downright accidents during the molts, because I don't recall them being very fat before their molts.

"Weight affecting molts" would be a cool experiment for someone who has the time and space, and I would definitely be interested in the results of such an experiment

If I were to do it, I would have to note how weight might affect each molt, particularly the early instars when the nymphs are more likely to eat soon before, and after their ecdysis.