ismart
Well-known member
To answer your question. Yes, you can legally release any native and already introduced species in your yard. Sorry I did not mean to confuse you or get off topic.
Legal Release in South Florida
- Thread starter mykey14
- Start date
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Dear mykey14,
the only person here that would prefer that you don't release them is me. why whould I think that?
well let's just say that in Florida, lots of people like to release pets that out grow them or when they get tired of them. the amount of damage from the reptile trade has caused Florida well over a million dollars so far. the amount of other plants and animals introduced for the betterment of the state has also done more harm then good we are finding out.
the ecosystem of Florida is diverse. it is not just one type of environment. introducing a mantid, that you say you don't see by your home, could cause problems that even I can't think of. sure, maybe nothing will go wrong. but are you sure? would you bet money on it?
if you said that you see chinese all over the place, then sure, release some. but since you would like to see some around your house regardless that none are around, then why take the chance? hasn't Florida gone through enough of people releasing boas, pythons, chameleons, and birds...never mind all the insects. you do know that it is against the law to even have roaches shipped to Florida?
my point is that no one ever thought that releasing their pets could cause harm. yet almost every day you hear storys of native animals going extinct because of what people do with their pets when they tire of them.
also, just because 2 people say that their mantids hung arround and stayed doesn't mean they will for you. the chances of your mantids just hanging at your home is slim. shoot, Nick released 4 or so ooths by his home and none but two hung arround...and he does have chinese all around him.
the choice is yours. good luck at what ever you do.
Harry
the only person here that would prefer that you don't release them is me. why whould I think that?
well let's just say that in Florida, lots of people like to release pets that out grow them or when they get tired of them. the amount of damage from the reptile trade has caused Florida well over a million dollars so far. the amount of other plants and animals introduced for the betterment of the state has also done more harm then good we are finding out.
the ecosystem of Florida is diverse. it is not just one type of environment. introducing a mantid, that you say you don't see by your home, could cause problems that even I can't think of. sure, maybe nothing will go wrong. but are you sure? would you bet money on it?
if you said that you see chinese all over the place, then sure, release some. but since you would like to see some around your house regardless that none are around, then why take the chance? hasn't Florida gone through enough of people releasing boas, pythons, chameleons, and birds...never mind all the insects. you do know that it is against the law to even have roaches shipped to Florida?
my point is that no one ever thought that releasing their pets could cause harm. yet almost every day you hear storys of native animals going extinct because of what people do with their pets when they tire of them.
also, just because 2 people say that their mantids hung arround and stayed doesn't mean they will for you. the chances of your mantids just hanging at your home is slim. shoot, Nick released 4 or so ooths by his home and none but two hung arround...and he does have chinese all around him.
the choice is yours. good luck at what ever you do.
Harry
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if I was looking for mantids I would want to visit more farms or "off the beaten path" type parks or woods...and yes, there are meddows deep inside some non developed wooded areas. but farms would be my first choice to look as the farmers should be using them at least some farmers.South Florida in meaning fort Lauderdale, Pompano beach area. I cant speak for the whole state. Sorry i should have been more specific.
I said it was a chore to find them, not that there aren't any. If i have a hard time finding them, then a mantis would have an even harder time. That's one of the reasons for my opionion. I expected to see a lot more inverts. Like i said maybe it's just the time of year?
It's hard to explain, but the areas i did visit in my oponion could not hold a chinese mantis population. The shurbbery was all wrong to me. I think one of parks was the secret woods. The other one i forgot the name? It was hard to get to though. Obviously woods are not where chinese mantids thrive, but the meadows and shurbbery within the parks did not hold any chinese mantids that i could find? I do consider myself pretty good at finding them. Maybe there are other meadows, and overgrown areas that do support them?
so you didn't find much? I'm not suprised.
I'll bet that you walked right by quite a few geckos and chameleons and never noticed a thing, regardless of how well you think you look.
a member of the chameleon forums, who also studys chameleons for a living whent to Cameroon to look for wild Quads...as well as other things. after 5 days of searching with a guid who knows where they live, he could not find any until the last day of the trip.
now if HE couldn't find Quads for 4 of the 5 days, then why will you be better then him at finding inverts? you would think that he has to be the best at finding something that he studys for a living?
but the moral of this story is that you can even be a pro and just walk right by them and not notice a thing...after all, chameleons, like matids and geckos are great at hiding.
wana try to find my female Quad in a 24x48 cage? I'll bet it will take you 2 hours to find her as she is quite shy and knows how to blend in to her suroundings. my male on the other hand you'll find in 30 seconds or less as he is never shy and will greatfully come out of the cage once open.
heck, I had a female Quad that was just in a 18x24 cage and it took me almost an hour to find her one day when she was being a little shy. (maybe I should also scale back on my plants sometimes.)
do you know how many times that I was free ranging one of my chameleons in a ficus tree and I had people who would be standing right next to the tree and had no idea that an animal was in it? after hours of this, sometimes one of the chameleons might leave the tree to go on somebody's head to say hello...the screems are still ringing in my head from last weeks date with this girl who thought the tree was out to kill her when one of my guys wanted to just say hello by climbing down to her shoulder. lol
heck, I've had plenty of ghosts in that same tree durring partys. I don't think one person ever knew that some of the leaves on the tree were ALIVE...until one of them flutters away.
Harry
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sadly no. she will never go out with me again after that.
if I only warned her or showed her the chameleon first in the tree. :whistling:
one day this will happen again. yet if the girl says "wow, you keep them outside too", then she's a keeper and I'll just teach her how to clean cages. ^_^
Harry
ismart
Well-known member
Yes, i do agree that farms may hold more populations of chinese mantids for pest control purposes. Also keep in mind that suburban, and city areas have there fair share too. You don't have to be a farmer to release chinese mantids into your flower garden, or vegitable garden. If there are plenty of inverts to eat they will stick around, and thrive.
I get your point about the whole camouflage thing, but mantids, and lizards are like apples, and oranges to me. I'm sure i must have passed by many lizards without even knowing it? But they are still not what i am looking for. The reason for my confidence in finding chinese mantids is i know what to look for, and how. I have been finding them in the wild since i was at least six years old. I have traveled a few places, and never had trouble finding chinese mantids if they were present there.
I will say that North carolina has one of the largest chinese mantid populations i have yet to see! They were everywhere! :blink: I traveled from Raleigh to the coast. Every park, and weedy lot i hit along the way had populations of chinese mantids. Even my hotel had a chinese mantis population in the back. I even found a chinese mantis at the airport when i was going home. :blink:
and that's my point.
yes, Florida does in fact have chinese mantids.
yes, at times few (a really ultra tiny amount) home owners will release some chinese in the more rural areas, and they may thrive at times.
yes, people in the city areas may release some mantids, but for the most part they don't thrive there.
but no, mantids are almost never used by most consumers when they have a pest problem. (and the number of mantids kept as pets in the state of Florida is almost none as compared to any non insect).
also, only in some locations do they seem to do real well in Florida as compared to NC.
yet, I still would not be suprised if you walked by a few and still didn't notice. mantids, that is. you might be a pro in your eyes but your not God. we can't see everything, even when we are looking and know how to look. but I agree that not every place in Florida is healthy for Chinese to thrive. but it's also just winter too.
Harry
I'm not seeing your point. Your posts seem contradictory.
CoolMantid
Well-known member
I agree with you. I dont think it is best to release them.
ok, that was my way of saying....NOBODY RELEASES MANTIDS IN FLORIDA.
other then the 3 farmers and 2 local town crazys, nobody else does this.
the fact that ismart also went to some of the worst places to find them also didn't help him find much.
using his example, North Carolina, you can find them anyplace. they are totaly overrun with them.
but while there are Chinese in Florida, you'll almost never see them. and that's because they are not all over the state. at least, not in abundance.
with that said, the reason I have been saying NOT to release chinese is because they are not everywere in the state of Florida.
and while most places are not well suited to live outside, they are quite capable of overcomming some environments. environments that have little defence against a mantid like the chinese.
we still don't know just where that guy lives. we have no idea if he lives in the iner citys, just outside of them, or out in the middle of no place. the closer he lives in many of Florida's citys, the less of a chance that he will have a second generation...never mind them just staying at his back yard.
but more importantly, at least for me is...just what fauna is arround his home? do you know? I don't. does he? I'm not sure. so why again should he play God just because it's legal? how do we know that there will be no harm to a population of reptiles or insects that could be far more important to his ecosystem then we can imagine?
I hope I've made myself more clear without offending anyone.
Harry
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ismart
Well-known member
I don't understand how you came to a conclusion that only a hand full of farmers, and a couple of crazies are releaseing chinese mantids in Florida? I know a woman living in south florida who bought chinese ooths at the local garden store. I'm sure she was not the only one to do this? Most people believe they are good pest control. I personally think the release of chinese mantids is more common then you think?
I guess if looking in undisturbed meaddows is not a good place to search for chinese mantids? Then i have been seeing them all in my head all these years? :lol: I do apologize though. I did let my ego get the better of me. Yes, i suppose it is possible for me not to have noticed some hiding?
:lol: My point with whole Carolina story is with the right envionment chinese mantids can thrive really well. I would think after 100 years chinese mantids would have taken a better foot hold in Florida. People are releasing a temperate species into a tropical envionment. What a tropical envionment, should there not be quite an abundance of chinese mantids with overlapping generations? Chinese ooths do not need a cold period, or diapause to hatch.
Of course this is only my opinon. I have no facts to support any of what i say. I beleive by now at least most of Florida has already seen a chinese mantis at one point or another? Whether or not Mykey's yard can support a population of chinese mantids. I do not know for sure? But i would have to lean toward no!
I'm seeing A LOT of leaps of the imagination in that post.
ismart
Well-known member
He is just voicing his opinion. Neither of us have any real facts here. Quit nit picking!
But nit pickin is what I do! I also have some first hand experience that contradicts what he said.He is just voicing his opinion. Neither of us have any real facts here. Quit nit picking!
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ismart
Well-known member
Then i will have to burrow that whip from Melano!
inch: :lol: If you have contradicting experiences please voice them? We are all friends here!
CoolMantid
Well-known member
I belive he is somewhat correct.
They do sell Chinese ooths at garden stores but most people in the cities wont buy them. Farmers might not be able to get a hold of them so therefore not many people are able to release MANY Chinese nymphs in their area.
I think mykey14 should not release nymphs because if he is succesfull with multiple generations and releases 20 some odd oothes that he doesnt need. That is a problem. Esspecially if he does this each year! Chinese hatch about 200-400 nymphs and decline in hatching rates as the ooths are laid. The last ooth can hatch from 10-50 nymphs. I am not saying he has one mated female laying she will pop out 20 ooths. I am saying if he has a colony of Chinese mantids and has 5-10 mated females they will pop out 20 or more eggsacks! I want your guys opinion now...
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ismart
Well-known member
It does not matter if he releases one, or one million. If the envionment/habitat does not suite them? they will all die! There are to many factors to consider.
OK guys here's what I have to say.
Every year in the early spring I buy chinese ooths for my 20' by 15' flower and herb garden. I buy at least two ooths from the garden store. They are sold in the pest control area along with ladybugs and such. whether or not they are good pest control or not is up for interpretation. But the section header could be misleading to some. and that could therefor cause people to buy them as pest control. Over the years of buying them at that store i have witnessed first hand many people buying ooths. Anyway back on topic. I always hatch the ooths inside than release the day or two old L1s in the garden, much like Mykey14 was suggesting.
After that day I try to spend at least 15 minutes in the garden observing them. in this time i have noticed many things that I bet the hobbyist who has never seen them in the wild will not know. I was able to see there preference for different plants and there camouflage in action. I use to think that they would all spread into the neighbors yard like many have suggested. I was surprised to find after the first year of doing this that I was wrong. The mantids were there the whole time! They were very hard to see but yes they were there. All I had to do was look in the right places! I tried this new technique of looking in the neighbors lawn and bushes but found none (maybe it was there use of insecticide that threw off these results).
By fall the mantids were maturing making them easier to find. In my small garden I now had 20 or so adults! Saying that they wander away from your property into others so that you have none left is completely false. That is why I must say that releasing chinese mantids anywhere in the continental US is a fun and valuable experience and is done by thousands of Americans every spring.
You can do this in Florida to i might add.
Every year in the early spring I buy chinese ooths for my 20' by 15' flower and herb garden. I buy at least two ooths from the garden store. They are sold in the pest control area along with ladybugs and such. whether or not they are good pest control or not is up for interpretation. But the section header could be misleading to some. and that could therefor cause people to buy them as pest control. Over the years of buying them at that store i have witnessed first hand many people buying ooths. Anyway back on topic. I always hatch the ooths inside than release the day or two old L1s in the garden, much like Mykey14 was suggesting.
After that day I try to spend at least 15 minutes in the garden observing them. in this time i have noticed many things that I bet the hobbyist who has never seen them in the wild will not know. I was able to see there preference for different plants and there camouflage in action. I use to think that they would all spread into the neighbors yard like many have suggested. I was surprised to find after the first year of doing this that I was wrong. The mantids were there the whole time! They were very hard to see but yes they were there. All I had to do was look in the right places! I tried this new technique of looking in the neighbors lawn and bushes but found none (maybe it was there use of insecticide that threw off these results).
By fall the mantids were maturing making them easier to find. In my small garden I now had 20 or so adults! Saying that they wander away from your property into others so that you have none left is completely false. That is why I must say that releasing chinese mantids anywhere in the continental US is a fun and valuable experience and is done by thousands of Americans every spring.
You can do this in Florida to i might add.
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patrickfraser
Well-known member
OMG! Y'all already scared the starter of this post away and you keep bickering about it. I can't believe how far some of these things go. Agree to disagree and move forward.
