making an orchid pink ?

[julian camilo]

I appreciate you might know more than me about genetics but this explanation just does not seem to sit well with me. I do not think it is as simple as just genetics. obviously genetics must bear some influence, maybe even a strong influence, I dont know. However it cant be the whole reason, I think there are too many other factors that we are unable to experiment with accurately. Its very easy to keep a handful of mantids in "the same" conditions, but it is very difficult for us to control so many other factors that are a possibility like light intensity, the nutritional content of the food they get, random variation. you said its "basically using the genotype with the colouring" but you dont mention that genotype and phenotype (genotype + environment → phenotype) are not always directly correlated. Some genes only lead to a certain phenotype when the organism is also in particular environmental conditions. I think the situation here is closer to Polyphenism. This is when there are several phenotypes in a population which are not caused by differences in their genetic makeup (such as when people observe that even mantids from the same ootheca vary greatly in their colouring). As far as I know, it is not really known why these differences occur but it is speculated that they are due to environemental factors, but random variation may also play a large role. This is just an opinion obviously, but I don't think its as easy as just down to genetics.

 

[Yosei]

Yeah, I've always thought more environmental than genetics but it could be both. I have a couple of ghosts also and I think others have said this but I haven't really seen a green male before (I would like to see one though!! )

 

[Lukony]

It was just an idea. I see the point to the surrounding. Just made sense since I see more white that the white is probably the dominant color that is passed on and the pink is the recessive.

So white being WW, Ww

and pink being ww

Female Male

Ww ww

w w

W Ww Ww

w ww ww

you have a 50% chance of it being white or pink in this case. But it you have two pink mantids that are both ww, then the chances are almost indefinant that it will be pink. I don't know if it is genetic of the environtment. If it is genetic this is how it would work. If it is the envornment then I have no idea. You would just have to figure out the dominant and recessive gene and that will help you figure out the phenotype. Hope this helps, you never know.

 

[julian camilo]

its not as easy as that. that method can be used where something such as smooth skinned or wrinkled peas, an experiment by Mendel who you cited. however, the question with colour isnt as simple as white or pink, wrinkly or smooth, its a gradiated spectrum between the two, a continuos trait. some will have blotches of pink on mainly white, some will be an even pink, it is a very wide spectrum of variation. if you were to apply the method you cited to orchid mantis colour, then supposedly if you bred solely white specimens for generations and generations, eventually you would never get pink mantids, as the recessive gene is gradually being eliminated more and more through each passing generation. i've obviously never done this and dont know that it has been attempted but im pretty sure even after so many generations, pink mantids would still occour. if we are talking genes being responsible for a mantids colour, then i think we can safely say they are responsible for the range of colours possible. however, i really do not think genes are responsible for determining the actual colour within that spectrum of possible colouration of each individual. i could very easily be wrong of course as i am just assuming, i have conducted no experiements and have not read of any findings or so related to this, so its just an educated guess and common sense.

ps - there was an interesting thread or two about this very subject on the old insecthobbyist.com mantis forum with contributions by chun and nrtheastah, but it was in 2002 and the archive doesnt go back far enough, so i couldnt find it to post here, which is a shame, it would have been interesting to follow up on some the ideas raised therein.

 

[Lukony]

The only way to know would really be to try it I guess.

 

[Johnald Chaffinch]

from what i've read many times - with mantids sometimes it's the humidity or temperature that can influence their shade, and i've read that sometimes it can be the colour of their surroundings. obviously genetics plays a part in this, but i reckon that if you had a whole lineage of white orchid mantids and then for their offspring you made their humidity greater than you ever had for any of the others than it may go pinkish

 

[rickyc666]

what humidity did you raise it to in order to turn you P Paradoxa green?

Mine's very dark brown with white/pale grey eyes.

P.s. Hi to everyone, this is my first post as ive only just joined.

 

[Ian]

I may have already said this Rich...but welcome

 

[jandl2204]

just a quick sweeping point.

High Humidity

Low Humidity.

a small experiment i decided to implement once i saw similar variations in some wc pw's which i recieved.

all the variations developed in completely white plastic cups.

there were no decorations nor substrate. both females were kept at the same temperatures but were in containers at different levels of humidity, they were from two separate oothecas but were similar morphs when the experiment began. Both were approx. L4 when i began to change the humidity and non of mantids from the same oothecas ever exerted such morph traits (they were kept in similar conditions as to eliminate other variables)

Just an interesting point.

 

[Lukony]

Wow, I have never seen a green like that.

 

[jandl2204]

admittedly the reddish morph returned to a general colouration as i began to increase the humidity once i noticed she was going to shed to an adult. Simply as i wanted her wings to fully form without any risk of a poor shed. Though i will be trying this again at a later date.

Lee

 

[Isis]

Lukony, it is just childish to try to just explain such a thing like this. You do only know a Mendel's puzzle and you think you're cool.

Determination of colour in a various range of species and genders of many families of species and depends not only on one gene and it is not a quality but a quantity feature. More genes means more possibilities of colour. Ever heard of it? Only very sufisticated statistical methods can more or less accurately define which factor matters in such things as milk productivity of cows, fur colour of mammals species, and same as here: no specialist was ever working

on mantid colour and that's why there is o much of controversy.

And secondly the activity of these colour genes is activated or suppressed by enviromental factors such as temperature, humidity (I suppose it the major role in the process), colour of enviroment (I think it counts the least) etc. The expression of genes, protein synthesis etc. are switched off or on whether conditions are different.

About humidity and colour: I think humidity has its reasons to be a deciding factor: green leaves transpirate. This is increasing humidity in surrondings. Mantis gets green, because leaves are green when they are alive.

When a mantid is living on branches, dead leaves, or in dry grass the surrondins are dry also. They get darker. Maybe the intense of this colour is decided by temperature and light? In dry grasslands there is hot. In shade of trees on branches- a bit colder.

What do you think of this theory?

 

[Ian]

Lighten up a bit guys..

 

[bruty2fruity]

innit guys relax. its friday. everyone has theories n thats all well n good.

also i have a reddish brown chinese mantis and all the others are a striking green.

i also have some giant indian mantises that are an emerald green with a blueish tinge there so pretty

 

[DrM]

just a quick sweeping point.High Humidity

Low Humidity.

a small experiment i decided to implement once i saw similar variations in some wc pw's which i recieved.

all the variations developed in completely white plastic cups.

there were no decorations nor substrate. both females were kept at the same temperatures but were in containers at different levels of humidity, they were from two separate oothecas but were similar morphs when the experiment began. Both were approx. L4 when i began to change the humidity and non of mantids from the same oothecas ever exerted such morph traits (they were kept in similar conditions as to eliminate other variables)

Just an interesting point.

HI jandl2204

I just wanted to say .........U're little girls are sooo cute regardless of their green or beige coloring! Great job!