Mantis eats goldfish, again

[Birdfly]

So is the problem the fish anymore?

No mate, imo its still cruel but it can be seen by any body else as unnessasary suffering as a mantis doesnt kill quickly, the fish would suffocate (suffering?) before being completely eaten but before it expires its been slowly minced.

It doesn't matter wether its a fish a mouse a bird or a snake, its all unnessasary sufferering because the mantis would happily eat a dead one if offered (meat on mouth parts) or better still what they have evolved to mostly eat, insects, and they do perfectly well on this, imo there is absolutely no difference between insect feeders and vertibrate meat and, again in my opinion i'd go so far as to say insects are better especially if gut loaded with other goodies for a week or so prior too offering.

Reptiles are different, they, if offered the correct prey size and if live food is all they'll take for what ever reason, kill much more quickly an efficiently than a mantis could care about.

Idolomantis, when you say "the fish is already dead" do you mean now or when the mantis caught and started eating it, as when i saw it, it was swimming and wriggling.

 

[idolomantis]

the fish is dead NOW okay, i'n not saying i would do this myself and i know the fish feels more(?) then a fly...)

i'm not freally sure what to find to find of this...

headache-.-

 

[Birdfly]

Nobodies pointing any fingers mate, were just discussing it here aren't we?

 

[Rick]

None of us have spent any time as a fish or a fly therefore we really don't know what each one feels. To me it is all the same. Being eaten alive is probably painful regardless of what you are.

 

[Mantidmaniac95]

I believe feeding a fish is the same as feeding a bug and I think they feel pain. I feel bad for what ever i feed my mantis bu I get over it.

 

[The_Asa]

No mate, imo its still cruel but it can be seen by any body else as unnessasary suffering as a mantis doesnt kill quickly, the fish would suffocate (suffering?) before being completely eaten but before it expires its been slowly minced.It doesn't matter wether its a fish a mouse a bird or a snake, its all unnessasary sufferering because the mantis would happily eat a dead one if offered (meat on mouth parts) or better still what they have evolved to mostly eat, insects, and they do perfectly well on this, imo there is absolutely no difference between insect feeders and vertibrate meat and, again in my opinion i'd go so far as to say insects are better especially if gut loaded with other goodies for a week or so prior too offering.

Here I agree with you. The line kinda crossed between fish bio and animal rights so I wasn't sure which one we were still concerned about

 

[Rob Byatt]

I understand your argument, and even if fish had a sensory system (which they don't, they can feel very little being that they live in thick liquids and are touched all day by debris, but not extreme pains, especially suffocation. trust me I am a bio major.) I think it is completely okay to feed him fish.

Did you do a degree before coming to this conclusion ? If you really think fish don't have a sensory system, then you've been reading the wrong books/journals :mellow:

Degree of specializationFurther information: Generalist and specialist species

Among predators there is a large degree of specialization. Many predators specialize in hunting only one species of prey. Others are more opportunistic and will kill and eat almost anything (examples: humans, leopards, and dogs). The specialists are usually particularly well suited to capturing their preferred prey. The prey in turn, are often equally suited to escape that predator. This is called an evolutionary arms race and tends to keep the populations of both species in equilibrium. Some predators specialize in certain classes of prey, not just single species. Almost all will switch to other prey (with varying degrees of success) when the preferred target is extremely scarce, and they may also resort to scavenging or a herbivorous diet if possible.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predation

I'm not trying to start an argument here, there are far more important issues, but this quote is irrelevant. I agree that predators often specialize, but mantids have evolved to specialize in the capture of terrestrial prey; they do not enter the water to eat fish ! The last sentance of the above quote suggests to me that is is based on mammalian behaviours. Mantids will not eat plants and will not scavenge.

Robs point above is more serious, we have had shows stopped among other things because certain people of an animal movement think the whole process of keeping any animal in captivity is cruel, with amunition like some of these inverts feeding on vertibrates vids showing animals fighting .......... this could get some one banned from keeping animals but worse it could just be another nail in the coffin of herp/invert culturing etc etc

This is the exact point I am trying to make. I am well aware that people do and always have had the morbid curiosity to watch a vertebrate being eaten by an invertebrate. I know it happens and I know it always will, the point is you should KEEP IT TO YOURSELF. Have some responsibilty and don't air it on the net.

:lol: I guess now we all know not to post any of our gruesome kills on the internet. Do you guys think it's that much a danger that animal rights activist will actually place inhumane (irony) behaviour on an insect? Just curious.

A couple of years ago the RSPCA was trying to stop invertebrate fairs as they deemed it as animal cruelty. They kicked up a stink at some beetles that were dying on one of the stalls. There was a rumour that they were trying to stop invertebrates being sent in the post.......because it emotionally scars them.

Imagine what would happen if they used vertebrate cruelty as prove of irresponsible keeping.

Maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm just one of the few people left in this hobby that actually cares about its future.

Rob.

 

[mantidsandgeckos]

Doesn't anyone think this thread should be stopped? :huh: :blink:

 

[OGIGA]

Doesn't anyone think this thread should be stopped? :huh: :blink:

Unfortunately, yes. Ugh...

 

[Christian]

I have managed to read through this thread. All major arguments were already posted by Rob and Birdfly, so there is no need to add something. I am just shocked by the level of ignorance exhibited by some of the others. Even if explained for the Xth time, they just don't find anything about it. The hobby is attacked at various fronts by so-called "animal lovers" and some still think they can do everything without consequences. I remember a time when there were animals offered as pets which you will never get again. Did the people know then that they would never get them again, maybe they would have engaged more in breeding or conservation efforts. Now, as there are lesser potential pets left that can be achieved regularly, by posting such s**t on the net, you're passing a good ball to those who intend to stop exotic pet-keeping completely. I am really curious to see the future of this hobby.

Another point is that that documentary is indeed a rather bad one and all those "natural" encounters were actually set up in arenas. Or have you seen an Asiatic Hierodula ever meet a N-American cornsnake?

 

[d0rk2dafullest]

I've noticed most of the ones caring extremely about the hobby, are in EUROPE.

I guess they have stricter laws than the US

 

[Christian]

It's not as simple as this. The import laws are much more severe in the US. Europeans are still allowed to keep most stuff, but the CITES laws may be applied more severely. The US government doesn't care a lot about the international conventions on climate or biodiversity, so the conservation laws may be less severe at moment, I don't know; this will certainly change soon.

However, there is a trend from a fundamentalist corner over here to restrict or stop keeping exotics as a whole. The problem is that they have some influence on dumb politicians who follow their "advices". We had such a debile law a year ago in one of the federal states in Germany. The "data" were falsified (!) and untrue, nevertheless, once such a law is proclaimed, it is almost impossible to be rejected afterwards. People are dumb: they are afraid of spiders etc., of the "freaks" keeping them, of venomous stuff whatsoever (even if most poisonous animals are harmless to man, except of some snakes and 3-4 spiders), of pythons in the bath tub and crocs and snapping turtles in lakes, and so on. It's on our own responsibility to avoid any behaviour that eases their public cries for prohibiting everything. Such bull***t like feeding verts to mantids or conducting invert fights is exactly the stuff they need to enhance their arguments. And we, instead of building up a public lobby explaining what we are doing and what's the use of it, feed their fear with vidoes like this.

 

[Fisherman_Brazil]

I have managed to read through this thread. All major arguments were already posted by Rob and Birdfly, so there is no need to add something. I am just shocked by the level of ignorance exhibited by some of the others. Even if explained for the Xth time, they just don't find anything about it. The hobby is attacked at various fronts by so-called "animal lovers" and some still think they can do everything without consequences. I remember a time when there were animals offered as pets which you will never get again. Did the people know then that they would never get them again, maybe they would have engaged more in breeding or conservation efforts. Now, as there are lesser potential pets left that can be achieved regularly, by posting such s**t on the net, you're passing a good ball to those who intend to stop exotic pet-keeping completely. I am really curious to see the future of this hobby.Another point is that that documentary is indeed a rather bad one and all those "natural" encounters were actually set up in arenas. Or have you seen an Asiatic Hierodula ever meet a N-American cornsnake?

I respected Christian's experties, but never feel (or dare) I shall after him. But this is something I parallel his opinion.

 

[Meiji]

I am happy to learn that mantis don't find fishy taste displeasing. For a while I have been thinking of using tuffies (little feeder fish) as food food for larger mantises since crickets really do stink and I have housemates. Per some of the concerns raised here, when I do try this out I'll execute the lil fishies painlessly before they become food.

 

[yeatzee]

Wow now i know why no one wanted to see the lizard pics

I personaly think its great to feed your mantids a couple new and different meals once in a while. I try to catch a variety of bugs for mine atleast and i have tried feeding mine feeder fish also due to what meiji said. They are feeder fish and are meant to be fed...everyone needs to chill for sec lol. Another point is that they're only 12 cents where i live which is a cheap meal thats different and not stinky for my mantids......sounds good to me.

Also maybe his mantid is like all mine where it refuses to touch dead things NO MATTER WHAT!

 

[MantidLord]

I agree with "both sides".

1) I don't think its wrong to feed a feeder fish to a mantis. And I don't see the point in killing it first. It's going to die anyway, and whether or not it feels the pain is irrelevant to me. And please don't compare this to torturing a human being, because that is totally different. I wouldn't feed a fish to my mantis, but once again, I don't find it "immoral" in the sense that some might.

2) I think this can be used as fuel to stop the hobby, and I do think that some people shouldn't put things on the web because of this. But I think those "animal lovers" should chill out a bit.

So for the sake of the hobby, NOTHING ELSE (not feelings, or morals), don't post that stuff on the web. It makes everyone associated with mantids look bad. And it spreads the sterertype that mantids are bloodthirsty killers who are mean and evil. When in reality, they are just trying to survive. In short, it's not wrong to feed a fish to your mantis, it's stupid to post that video on the web. Especially if you are trying to keep the hobby going. I believe someone allready said that.

BTW, this isn't directed toward Ogiga in any way, just those who like posting this stuff on the web constantly and think this will help the hobby.

 

[idolomantis]

this actualy reminds me of a video: sunspider eating a pinky mice.

everybody had comments like "you sad ###### go die!!!"

i thought it wasn't wrong but not a smart idea to place that on utube.

i agree with mantidlord and his oppinion pretty much counts for me.

 

[Christian]

And I don't see the point in killing it first. It's going to die anyway, and whether or not it feels the pain is irrelevant to me.

You still haven't understood anything. Considering the stuff written above you don't deserve any creature as pet.

 

[Rob Byatt]

You still haven't understood anything. Considering the stuff written above you don't deserve any creature as pet.

But I think those "animal lovers" should chill out a bit.

I'll never stop trying to keep this hobby alive

Christian, I think our advice is falling on deaf ears......again

 

[Birdfly]

I personaly think its great to feed your mantids a couple new and different meals once in a while. I try to catch a variety of bugs for mine atleast and i have tried feeding mine feeder fish also due to what meiji said.

Yes insects are the best thing you can give them and variety is also good. This is why i breed cockroaches, crickets (for my reptiles only, UK) flies, locusts, phasmids, katydids etc in an effort to give my pets a good variety of food, its all they need.

They are feeder fish and are meant to be fed...

Yes but not specifically to mantids.

everyone needs to chill for sec lol.

Why, no one is irrate just disapointed.

Another point is that they're only 12 cents where i live which is a cheap meal thats different and not stinky for my mantids......sounds good to me.

You shouldnt be feeding "stinky" crickets to any thing, this suggests to me you are keeping them wrong.

Also maybe his mantid is like all mine where it refuses to touch dead things NO MATTER WHAT!

All mantids will exept dead prey if they are hungry and the dead prey is touched against their mouth parts, they wont pick a dead insect up from the ground as a dead animal does not move and so the mantid cannot recognise it as food.