Mantis emotions

[Rick]

Not that I believe that evolution actually happened (but let's not have a debate about that here), but what is the evolutionary value of emotions in anything? I can only imagine that emotions will hinder the survival of the fittest.The swaying motion is still fascinating. Yes, people keep saying that they sway so that they blend into the leaves in the wind. But I don't think that mantises go, "Hey look, the leaves are moving so I will too." I know that because none of my mantises have been outside and they all sway.

Anyway, why do they sway? Do they move using a heart rather than muscles (like a spider) so that when they're excited their heart is more active?

We already answered that one. They sway to imitate a leaf or stick blowing in the wind. Mantids have large muscles at the attachment point of their legs. They know to sway by instinct. They don't have to ever have been outside to learn how.

 

[OGIGA]

They sway to imitate a leaf or stick blowing in the wind.

Why do you think so? I'd like to see an answer better than, "It's their instinct." If that's really the only answer, I'm sure it can be digressed upon.

 

[Rick]

They sway to imitate a leaf or stick blowing in the wind.

Why do you think so? I'd like to see an answer better than, "It's their instinct." If that's really the only answer, I'm sure it can be digressed upon.

What else is it? That makes the most sense.

 

[OGIGA]

They sway to imitate a leaf or stick blowing in the wind.

Why do you think so? I'd like to see an answer better than, "It's their instinct." If that's really the only answer, I'm sure it can be digressed upon.

What else is it? That makes the most sense.

I'll give an example. It's probably not true, but it's an example.

A mantis sways when it sees a prey and when it is eating because it is not focusing on balancing itself.

 

[bubforever]

that seems reasonable enough.

 

[sean]

Not that I believe that evolution actually happened (but let's not have a debate about that here), but what is the evolutionary value of emotions in anything? I can only imagine that emotions will hinder the survival of the fittest.

thats not entirely true. emotions in humans help continuation of the species. for example 'love' in humans (in the past at least), helps a couple stay together whilst raising a child, contributing both thier efforts in protecting and caring for it (and thier genes)... giving the child a much greater chance of survival at a time when food would have been hard to come by... (hunted or found...which would take up a great deal of time). therefore emotions can aid survival.

 

[colddigger]

I disagree on mantids having emotions. Most of these are just responses to the environment with many being instinct. Most animals do those things. I believe the swaying is to make the mantis appear to be a leaf or twig blowing in the wind. Part of camouflage.Excitement: all animals get excited over food.

Alertness: When a mantis sees prey it must give it full attention and track it in order to catch it. If it doesn't eat it will die, therefore it must give food it's full attention.

Pleasureoubt insects experience any type of pleasure.

Frustration: Swatting or jerking is just a response to the feeling of something crawling on the mantis. I doubt they get frustrated.

These answers do make sense, but they don't really disprove mantid emotions. just because all animals get excited over food doesn't mean it isn't an emotion. The excitement and alertness could be seen as some form of desire and insects probably have "pleasure" during breeding or else their survival would stay at top and males would stay away from the much larger females.

 

[OGIGA]

Not that I believe that evolution actually happened (but let's not have a debate about that here), but what is the evolutionary value of emotions in anything? I can only imagine that emotions will hinder the survival of the fittest.

thats not entirely true. emotions in humans help continuation of the species. for example 'love' in humans (in the past at least), helps a couple stay together whilst raising a child, contributing both thier efforts in protecting and caring for it (and thier genes)... giving the child a much greater chance of survival at a time when food would have been hard to come by... (hunted or found...which would take up a great deal of time). therefore emotions can aid survival.

Well, think of it this way: If the parents have no love, then I would think only the strongest children will survive. For example, a man rapes a woman and the woman dumps the child after birth. Of course, we'll have tons of dead babies, but those who survive must be stronger than those who died. When we're talking about microevolution, isn't that what we're talking about?

 

[Rick]

I disagree on mantids having emotions. Most of these are just responses to the environment with many being instinct. Most animals do those things. I believe the swaying is to make the mantis appear to be a leaf or twig blowing in the wind. Part of camouflage.Excitement: all animals get excited over food.

Alertness: When a mantis sees prey it must give it full attention and track it in order to catch it. If it doesn't eat it will die, therefore it must give food it's full attention.

Pleasureoubt insects experience any type of pleasure.

Frustration: Swatting or jerking is just a response to the feeling of something crawling on the mantis. I doubt they get frustrated.

These answers do make sense, but they don't really disprove mantid emotions. just because all animals get excited over food doesn't mean it isn't an emotion. The excitement and alertness could be seen as some form of desire and insects probably have "pleasure" during breeding or else their survival would stay at top and males would stay away from the much larger females.

I can assure you insects don't breed for pleasure. The desire to breed to further the species is very strong in many species. Without it they would die out. We can't forget we're talking about INSECTS here. As much as we like to think they are intelligent and have human like emotions, they don't.

 

[sean]

Not that I believe that evolution actually happened (but let's not have a debate about that here), but what is the evolutionary value of emotions in anything? I can only imagine that emotions will hinder the survival of the fittest.

thats not entirely true. emotions in humans help continuation of the species. for example 'love' in humans (in the past at least), helps a couple stay together whilst raising a child, contributing both thier efforts in protecting and caring for it (and thier genes)... giving the child a much greater chance of survival at a time when food would have been hard to come by... (hunted or found...which would take up a great deal of time). therefore emotions can aid survival.

Well, think of it this way: If the parents have no love, then I would think only the strongest children will survive. For example, a man rapes a woman and the woman dumps the child after birth. Of course, we'll have tons of dead babies, but those who survive must be stronger than those who died. When we're talking about microevolution, isn't that what we're talking about?

if a child was dumped it would die no matter how strong it was... a human child needs care. of course children can be raised by one parent or parents that dont love each other, i was just stating that in the past, two parents providing the child with care was better than one, and the emotion love provided this. this is how the emotion could have come to be. (it doesnt matter nowadays but it would have dramatically improved the chances of survival then).

anyway, the true debate here is about emotions in mantids.... i dont think they do but everyone has their opinion. (thats what makes these forums great to be part of)! i look forward to seeing more opinions!

cheers, sean

 

[AFK]

as i've already said, it is fundamental logic that the burden of proof is on the affirmative (proving that mantises have emotions). until we have proof, it is totally irrational to even suspect mantises to have emotions.

none of the evidence presented is even remotely convincing. it's all explained by instinct/reflex, e.g. mantis swaying because it's not focusing on balancing itself? that itself is so out of character for a mantis that it's quite an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. try blowing on a mantis the next time it sways and see if it tips over. :lol:

 

[Peekaboo]

Now we really need to define instinct and emotion. I think AFK's definition of instinct is way too broad. I would opt that instinct has to do with some kind of nervous system. Otherwise, paper towels have instincts too. And would we argue that electronics (like a calculator) have instincts too?

I'm not understanding your argument here .... Exactly how do paper towels and calculators have instincts?

Here are the dictionary definitions of both words, as they apply to our discussions:

instinct - a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason

emotion - a conscious mental reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling usually directed toward a specific object and typically accompanied by physiological and behavioral changes in the body

Personally, I feel that all the mantis behaviour described thus far, falls under the category of instinct.

 

[hibiscusmile]

Seems I am late again, sorry but if dictionary meaning is true, then emotion must play a part, Fear, would mean moving away, running or hiding. The swaying part, well I probably sway when I have something good to eat too! lol

 

[anthony2001a]

Now we really need to define instinct and emotion. I think AFK's definition of instinct is way too broad. I would opt that instinct has to do with some kind of nervous system. Otherwise, paper towels have instincts too. And would we argue that electronics (like a calculator) have instincts too?

I'm not understanding your argument here .... Exactly how do paper towels and calculators have instincts?Here are the dictionary definitions of both words, as they apply to our discussions:

instinct - a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason

emotion - a conscious mental reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling usually directed toward a specific object and typically accompanied by physiological and behavioral changes in the body

Personally, I feel that all the mantis behaviour described thus far, falls under the category of instinct.

You make it sound like instincts and emotions are mutually exclusive, but that may not necessarily be true. Very complex behaviors can be instinctive, for example the instinctive behavior a spider exihibits in spinning a complex web. Some instinctive courting rituals of animals are quite complex. Likewise, animals can exhibit emotions. Does anyone really doubt that when your favorite dog sees you and wags his/her tail and begins barking excitedly that your favorite dog is happy?

Certainly, some emotions are instinctive to humans, like fear or excitement. The definition you gave does not match most definitions of emotion, as your definition talks about conscious reactions. Most definitions of emotion involve spontaneous reactions, quite a distinctive definition from "feelings." Feelings can involve a conscious and sub-conscious interpretation of emotional and physiological states to reach a label.

Some "basic" emotions for humans, which appear to be universal (i.e. people from isolated New Guinea tribes can recognize emotions from a totally different culture) are:

anger

fear

sadness

happiness

disgust

Moreover, there's evidence for the belief that these basic emotions may well be innate or, to use a term that's been used a lot in this thread, an instinct.

Now, if emotions can be innate, there's no specific reason to limit it to humans. In fact, most creatures certainly seem to experience some very basic emotions like fear or excitement (like when finding food). These would seem to be evolutionary advantageous. A mantis which doesn't exhibit fear when encountering a predator might not flee when appropriate or might not react defensively, for example.

Point being: emotions can be instinctive. Instinctive behavior does not exclude emotion.

Anthony

 

[OGIGA]

Thanks Anthony. You make a good point. I gave up trying to make people see what kind of arguments they were making, but maybe I'll reconsider.

Anyway, I think Peekaboo misunderstood something. Either Peekaboo didn't read my post or read it too fast because that's not my argument. I wrote what you'll get if you apply AFK's idea of instinct.

Finally, sean, please reconsider parents dumping babies. Not all babies will die, even if 999/1000 do. Do all other animals die if nothing ever takes care of them? (How about a mantis?)

 

[AFK]

there is no reason to think that mantises have emotions. end of story, seriously. those are some cool points above, but they don't in any way imply that mantises have emotions. some people seem to be thinking that we're saying that mantises don't have emotions because emotions are unnatural. that is NOT our point, and even if so, it still doesn't prove anything.

again, to ignore the fundamental discipline that the burden is on the affirmative is just ABSOLUTELY POOR SCIENCE. this kind of emotionally driven, wishful-thinking based science should be discouraged at all costs.

 

[sean]

i agree with afk. ogiga, if a human baby was dumped at birth it would die (100% of the time, unless found by an adoptive parent). a human baby needs care. it needs to be fed and kept safe, warm etc. a mantis like many other animals are born already capable of looking after themselves from day 1. for example a newly hatched nymph has everything it needs to catch food and feed itself, a newborn baby cannot find its own milk.. lol. i understand where you are coming from, in that you are saying some animals are born capable of surviving without parental care.and you are right. but a human child is not one of those.

i do not think mantids have emotions however the point raised about them having fear and raising into a threat display is a good one. one that i cannot answer. fear is an emotion. however, how do we know that when a mantis seems afraid that it is actually feeling fear, or just going through a series of inbuilt behaviours to avoid being killed? the answer is we dont know. this comes back to afk's point. without solid scientifc proof nothing can be assumed from simple observation, without running the risk that our interpretation of the behaviour results in us perceiving results that we want to find, but might not and probably do not exsist.

 

[anthony2001a]

there is no reason to think that mantises have emotions. end of story, seriously. those are some cool points above, but they don't in any way imply that mantises have emotions. some people seem to be thinking that we're saying that mantises don't have emotions because emotions are unnatural. that is NOT our point, and even if so, it still doesn't prove anything.again, to ignore the fundamental discipline that the burden is on the affirmative is just ABSOLUTELY POOR SCIENCE. this kind of emotionally driven, wishful-thinking based science should be discouraged at all costs.

Thankfully, scientists don't think like you. Instead, they formulate testable hypotheses and conduct observation and tests, rather than presume as you do that observations of mantis behavior are driven by emotions and wishful thinking.

"There's no reason to think that mantises have emotions." So, observations of behavior which may indicate things like fear or excitement or whatever are worthless? I guess Newton should have ignored the apple falling from the tree, because heck, there's no reason to think of gravity.

Why don't you come up with a way to test whether such emotions exist or not, instead of presuming we're all emotionally overwrought wishful thinkers? ;-)

Anthony

 

[AFK]

no offense, but your post above alone demonstrates your lack of reading comprehension skills, thus you are unfit for any serious debate that involves critical thinking. you are putting crazy words in what i'm saying, and totally totally not understanding my points. if you're doing that deliberately, that is slander.

Thankfully, scientists don't think like you. Instead, they formulate testable hypotheses and conduct observation and tests, rather than presume as you do that observations of mantis behavior are driven by emotions and wishful thinking.

1. no where did i say that mantis observations are driven emotions and wishful thinking.

2. scientists love me. they formulate testable hypothesis ALL BECAUSE of the aforementioned fundamental discipline - that the burden of proof is on the affirmative. hypothesis = affirmative. testing of the hypothesis = burden of proof. sounds to me that your rebuttal is the one that is purely emotionally, not logically, driven...or that you're just not capable of critical thinking.

"There's no reason to think that mantises have emotions." So, observations of behavior which may indicate things like fear or excitement or whatever are worthless? I guess Newton should have ignored the apple falling from the tree, because heck, there's no reason to think of gravity.

3. no one has yet posted any observations that indicate emotions. NO ONE. it's YOUR burden to prove that whatever observations were posted are indicative of emotions.

4. you dummy, even newton followed the same fundamental discipline (and by the way, it's not really a stated rule, but it's really COMMON SENSE, but it seems like i have to state it here). the apple fell, it gave him the idea about gravity, but he knew he couldn't say there is gravity (the affirmative here) until he provided actual proof (the burden).

Why don't you come up with a way to test whether such emotions exist or not, instead of presuming we're all emotionally overwrought wishful thinkers?

5. dude, numerous scientists have been documenting tests for emotions in animals forever. have you ever even took a class in biology or are you just pretending you know what you're talking about?

the only reason why i'm so flabbergasted by all this is because we're a mantid forum, where we're supposed to be intelligent, scientific keepers of a very specific kind of insect. this kind of poor science is frankly appalling. i expect better from a scientifically-minded community. if you're not fit for critical thinking, please don't pretend you are.

 

[Rob Byatt]

I completely agree with what AFK says; experiments are needed to give any credibility to this theory.

HOWEVER, there needs to be experiments to DISPROVE that mantids have any emotions. So I'm sorry, but dismissing a theory without prove is also bad science :wink:

Rob.