Go read my thread in the regulatory issues forum. Chances of us getting a permit to IMPORT is about zero.
Ooths from Tanzania
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If this is the situation, isn't it also illegal to import ooths? So, if you all undergo such risks, isn't it irrevant if you do it for captive specimens or for WC ones?
Someone should be able to clarify to the relevant persons that a species as specialized as Idolomantis wouldn't be threat for native faunas.
Someone should be able to clarify to the relevant persons that a species as specialized as Idolomantis wouldn't be threat for native faunas.
[email protected]
Well-known member
[SIZE=14pt]Now A thought would be for the Tanzania collectors/Tanzania sellers whom ever it is, well wouldn't it be wise for them to collect adults and breed them, as some do for some reptiles like chameleon breeders in Africa or what they do with Ball python where thay catch the gravid wild female balls and then they Incubat them and export them to around, so they can put them into the pet trade. Well its a thought why haven't someone done this, but then again Christian has a good point.[/SIZE]Guys, have you ever thought of at least some ooths being killed purposedly by the African sellers in order to keep their business going? Or, if the seller doesn't know of it, by the collector (sellers and collectors are different persons)? Still as prone to buy such stuff?
In order to keep a particular species alive, not talking about breeding it, you have to know something about it. Unfortunately, in most countries people either have other, more severe problems, or simply are not much interested or are misinformed about their native faunas. As a consequence, the state of knowledge on most taxa is rather poor. For example, prior of our very first Idolomantis imports, many natives down there didn't even know that the nymphs, the ooths and the adults belong to the same species. Furthermore, taking care of a bunch of animals means work, and why engaging in work if you just can pick what nature has already done for you.
We shouldn't be too confident either: our activities aren't any better than what those people do, on the contrary, we are acting on a global scale, overharvesting timber, overfishing oceans and stealing other peoples resources. Thinking about consequences is obviously an evolutionary trait that wasn't necessary for the survival of the hominids. Maybe this lack will turn out to maneuver us into a dead end street. Nature will give a party then, I think.
We shouldn't be too confident either: our activities aren't any better than what those people do, on the contrary, we are acting on a global scale, overharvesting timber, overfishing oceans and stealing other peoples resources. Thinking about consequences is obviously an evolutionary trait that wasn't necessary for the survival of the hominids. Maybe this lack will turn out to maneuver us into a dead end street. Nature will give a party then, I think.
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Yes it is illegal.
I posed the exact issue in your last sentence to the USDA person. His reply is in the thread in the regularatory forum. He says they make the laws/rules based on the entire country, not a specific area. There is a problem of non native species taking hold in FL and southern CA but it probably couldn't happen in most other places with these mantids. I wonder often why those areas cannot be the ones with the restrictions but that isn't how they do it. I agree it makes no sense in the case of mantids but then again not much makes sense when dealing with government.
Amen Rick, Amen! and everybody said AMEN!
PhilinYuma
Well-known member
[SIZE=12pt]Simple Mathematics[/SIZE]
Hi
Here is a calculation for all those who wonder that the African Wild Caught ooths never hatch.
Let’s say there are areas in Tanzania and Kenia with one, two or three rain seasons. Some tribes of let’s say Idolomantis diabolica thus undergo one, two or three generations a year. That means that if you collect all ooth you will collect the ooth of up to three different generations. Only some of the last ooth of the last generation will not have hatched out yet. Consequently, only less than 33% are still filled with alive larvae.
OK, but the empty, not collected ooth in nature do not vanish! They will stay where they were laid by the mother for several years! This results in the fact that not less than 33% of all ooth are empty already. Let’s say the ooth can resist the outdoor conditions for 5 years. This means less than 33%/5 = 6.6% are still filled with larvae.
Now be aware that only a low percentage of these 6.6% of all collected ooth which are still filled with larvae where collected directly before they are shipped to Europe or USA. The collector collects not one ooth and directly sends it. He collects for 2-4 weeks and later he sends all ooth. So most of the ooth will hatch at the collector while waiting to be shipped to Europe or US. I would say less than 50% of the less than 6.6% will be shipped with still alive larvae. Resulting in around 3% of alive larvae containing ooth are on their way to USA or Europe. In the 3-5 weeks of shipping, around 80% of this ooth will hatch while shipping. Because it takes 3-5 weeks! Of course the collector does no express shipping because why should he ship stuff express which is laying on his desk for already 2-4weeks?!
You can see that the chance for an Idolomantis ooth from Tanzanian or Kenian collectors to hatch is much less than 0.5%. But this is not enough. Now the ooth which were imported to Europe and still contain larvae (which of course will hatch out every day) are sold to USA and shipped to USA for another 3-5 Weeks traveling around from Europe to USA.
All in all, it’s not that the collector or the people who are buying ooth from collectors and selling them to hobbyists like us fool us. It’s just normal that nearly no ooth will be fine. The collectors and sellers do not realize the facts just as most of you seem not to realize it. As you can see, this year, the only Idolomantis ooth which was exported to the USA and really hatched out directly hatched out after arriving at PohChunYee. And some years ago, the only other one or two succesfull ooth in USA hatched out on their way to Yen, luckily he handled it to manage them although they hatched out some days before arrival while shipping.
So, even if my calculation is not 100% correct, I think it can help to understand the situation. If you receive a ooth, it will hatch with a chance of much less than 0.5%, and if you will get a new one because the seller gives a guaranty, this new one will hatch with 0.5% and so on…
Best regards,
Stefan
Hi
Here is a calculation for all those who wonder that the African Wild Caught ooths never hatch.
Let’s say there are areas in Tanzania and Kenia with one, two or three rain seasons. Some tribes of let’s say Idolomantis diabolica thus undergo one, two or three generations a year. That means that if you collect all ooth you will collect the ooth of up to three different generations. Only some of the last ooth of the last generation will not have hatched out yet. Consequently, only less than 33% are still filled with alive larvae.
OK, but the empty, not collected ooth in nature do not vanish! They will stay where they were laid by the mother for several years! This results in the fact that not less than 33% of all ooth are empty already. Let’s say the ooth can resist the outdoor conditions for 5 years. This means less than 33%/5 = 6.6% are still filled with larvae.
Now be aware that only a low percentage of these 6.6% of all collected ooth which are still filled with larvae where collected directly before they are shipped to Europe or USA. The collector collects not one ooth and directly sends it. He collects for 2-4 weeks and later he sends all ooth. So most of the ooth will hatch at the collector while waiting to be shipped to Europe or US. I would say less than 50% of the less than 6.6% will be shipped with still alive larvae. Resulting in around 3% of alive larvae containing ooth are on their way to USA or Europe. In the 3-5 weeks of shipping, around 80% of this ooth will hatch while shipping. Because it takes 3-5 weeks! Of course the collector does no express shipping because why should he ship stuff express which is laying on his desk for already 2-4weeks?!
You can see that the chance for an Idolomantis ooth from Tanzanian or Kenian collectors to hatch is much less than 0.5%. But this is not enough. Now the ooth which were imported to Europe and still contain larvae (which of course will hatch out every day) are sold to USA and shipped to USA for another 3-5 Weeks traveling around from Europe to USA.
All in all, it’s not that the collector or the people who are buying ooth from collectors and selling them to hobbyists like us fool us. It’s just normal that nearly no ooth will be fine. The collectors and sellers do not realize the facts just as most of you seem not to realize it. As you can see, this year, the only Idolomantis ooth which was exported to the USA and really hatched out directly hatched out after arriving at PohChunYee. And some years ago, the only other one or two succesfull ooth in USA hatched out on their way to Yen, luckily he handled it to manage them although they hatched out some days before arrival while shipping.
So, even if my calculation is not 100% correct, I think it can help to understand the situation. If you receive a ooth, it will hatch with a chance of much less than 0.5%, and if you will get a new one because the seller gives a guaranty, this new one will hatch with 0.5% and so on…
Best regards,
Stefan
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[email protected]
Well-known member
[SIZE=14pt]A+ Stefan[/SIZE]
still I think helping whom ever is collecting the Ooths where ever thay are collecting them be it Tanzania or Malaysian maybe befor its to late somone could start a breeding program to help keep some for the wild and then some for the hobby, its a thought to save our hobby and the wild mantids of the world.
still I think helping whom ever is collecting the Ooths where ever thay are collecting them be it Tanzania or Malaysian maybe befor its to late somone could start a breeding program to help keep some for the wild and then some for the hobby, its a thought to save our hobby and the wild mantids of the world.
But it should not be a problem to tell a fresh ooth from a hatched one. Besides, ooths sitting somewhere for months will deteriorate - the problem is, those ooths are often collected by people who know nothing about mantids.
I've seen it - them ooths that came from Tanzania, some on them looked like they were already hatched, some appeared damaged, and some looked fine, but nothing hatched from them... which proves the point that Tier has made. You pay for a good ooth, but there is a good chance that you might get some old, moldy garbage.
I've seen it - them ooths that came from Tanzania, some on them looked like they were already hatched, some appeared damaged, and some looked fine, but nothing hatched from them... which proves the point that Tier has made. You pay for a good ooth, but there is a good chance that you might get some old, moldy garbage.
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Hi
Not too much reply to my calculation. Are you all shocked now, or just ignore it?
Anyway, now the moderators start selling WC Idolomantis ooth, which is the baddest thing ever here in the forum in my opinion. We will see how much of the new imports will hatch. And it's the worst of the situations I mentioned above: First to UK, and later on from the UK to the wide world. Good incubation!
(Sorry Ian, but this is what I think).
Good luck to all of you
regards
Not too much reply to my calculation. Are you all shocked now, or just ignore it?
Anyway, now the moderators start selling WC Idolomantis ooth, which is the baddest thing ever here in the forum in my opinion. We will see how much of the new imports will hatch. And it's the worst of the situations I mentioned above: First to UK, and later on from the UK to the wide world. Good incubation!
(Sorry Ian, but this is what I think).
Good luck to all of you
regards
I just caught this post! I think that is pretty much correct, other than an ooth that is hatched will usually show signs of being hatched, as in the little brown lines along the zipper, now an ooth that is old with a summers age will also not look fresh and clean, it will appear a bit faded. I raise in my fields the chinese and religiosa, and I can usually tell when I missed picking from the year before, but that does not mean that those who are not breeders, but collectors (those who buy from someone and resell) will know what that looks like. That is why when Don L. told me to send him a picture after I told him the first ooths he sent were old and hatched, I did so, so there would be no reason to send me another like that. haha. not that it did any good!
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Ian
Well-known member
No need to appologise
Last year before last when I imported some Idolomantis ootheca, 7 out of the 10 I got hatched. Hence, I bought some more. The one ootheca I cut open had living larvae in - could have been the only one, could have been one of many. We will soon see if the ones I kept, hatch. People realise the risks of buying wild caught ootheca, as I realised the risks of buying them myself.
As for your calculations, you do raise an interesting point. And depending on the results from these ootheca, will certainly depend on whether I buy any more of these again. However, as I said, I bought this lot based on the good results I had last time from WC ootheca.
Ahh, I see. You had good results so you tried it again. Ok, why not. You are right.No need to appologise
As for your calculations, you do raise an interesting point. And depending on the results from these ootheca, will certainly depend on whether I buy any more of these again. However, as I said, I bought this lot based on the good results I had last time from WC ootheca.
But Ian, 7 ooth hatched out and you need to import new ooth? I cannot understand that! Did you just sell all without trying to breed them? Or did all these hundreds of larvae died? I could understand that, as new imported tribes of Idolomantis fail nearly always.
regards
Ian
Well-known member
Nope, I sold all the livestock I had about about 6 weeks after they had hatched, as I went away to Europe for a couple of months. Timing was extremely badly planned on that one. I didn't have a massive amount, I got between 5 and 10 from each ootheca; but regardless, better than nothing. And yes, a lot of larvae did die, about 30% all in all. However, I figured I'd give it another bash.
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sporeworld
Well-known member
I just wanted to ping this thread. Somehow, I missed it when scanning the forum last year, and I'd like to see more people read it and chime in, as it's been a while. Any new insights...?
PhilinYuma
Well-known member
No, I think that it is pretty much exhausted. Tier's "simple mathematics" had far too many hypotheticals, including a wrong estimate on the number of generations per year, to be convincing, but we know that buying African Idolomantis is a serious gamble, whether the odds of getting a goodun are 0.5% or 1.28697%.
Rick's comment about having federal laws that apply only to certain areas betrays a misunderstanding of the concept of Federal law, or for the reason for it, which applies to the whole of the United States equally. Undocumented Mexicans are as illegal in Wisconsin as they are in Arizona or Texas. The only exception to this (and I'm a bloody foreigner, goldurn it! Don't you learn about your own government in school?) is when a state uses a stricter interpretation of the law than do the feds, in which case, the stricter interpretation wins. If a state believes, for example, that the privacy of a person's property extends to garbage that has been set out for collection, then federal agents cannot use evidence from papers taken from such garbage in that state, though Federal law allows such confiscation.
The reason why WC ooths and mantids are considered much more dangerous than captive raised specimens of the same species is that they are likely to carry all sorts of parasites that can escape and become established even though the mantids that bore them die out.
Rick's comment about having federal laws that apply only to certain areas betrays a misunderstanding of the concept of Federal law, or for the reason for it, which applies to the whole of the United States equally. Undocumented Mexicans are as illegal in Wisconsin as they are in Arizona or Texas. The only exception to this (and I'm a bloody foreigner, goldurn it! Don't you learn about your own government in school?) is when a state uses a stricter interpretation of the law than do the feds, in which case, the stricter interpretation wins. If a state believes, for example, that the privacy of a person's property extends to garbage that has been set out for collection, then federal agents cannot use evidence from papers taken from such garbage in that state, though Federal law allows such confiscation.
The reason why WC ooths and mantids are considered much more dangerous than captive raised specimens of the same species is that they are likely to carry all sorts of parasites that can escape and become established even though the mantids that bore them die out.
