Ooths outside hatch in fall in So. Cal?

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cloud jaguar

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We are currently incubating an ooth of S. Limbata indoors (constant temp between 75-82) yet we put an ooth outside in the garden (day temp 85-97 / night temp 55-65). Well we live in So. Cal and it is hot as Hades here even during this part of fall.

My question is, i noticed today that some spiderlings hatched out in the garden -- aren't they supposed to wait until Spring instead of fall?! And, if the spiderlings hatched, there is probably at least a good chance that the ooth outside in the garden will hatch early and the first frost will kill the nymphs? Is this a cause for concern? Thanks.

~Arkanis

 
We are currently incubating an ooth of S. Limbata indoors (constant temp between 75-82) yet we put an ooth outside in the garden (day temp 85-97 / night temp 55-65). Well we live in So. Cal and it is hot as Hades here even during this part of fall. My question is, i noticed today that some spiderlings hatched out in the garden -- aren't they supposed to wait until Spring instead of fall?! And, if the spiderlings hatched, there is probably at least a good chance that the ooth outside in the garden will hatch early and the first frost will kill the nymphs? Is this a cause for concern? Thanks.

~Arkanis
Arkanis,

Clearly diapause in various mantid species is not well documented and, from what I can determine, not well studied. The insects where diapause is well documented are usually pest insects and those studies have been undertaken to better understand how one might control the pest.

From what I can discern, there are two possible mechanisms that trigger a diapause in mantid species that don't have an obligate diapause. One would be the photoperiodic induced diapause and the other would be temperature induced diapause. I don't know which mechanism induces diapause in Stagmomantis limbata. But, I would guess it was a change in the photoperiod induces embryonic diapause.

Scott

 
Have the wild mantids in your area laid their ooths yet? If so I fail to see the problem. Put it outside already. If you're that worried about it which obviously you are since you have posted about this before then stick it in the fridge for a few weeks until it cools outside some more and then put it outside.

 
He already did. He is just wondering if the ootheca will hatch because of how warm it is.Stagmomantis limbata in nature would have laid oothecae already.

Scott
You are right and you are wrong, Salamonis. This species has already laid eggs in my area but egglaying is documented as persisting into December in Texas from ootheca laid in Superior, AZ (just north of the Gila River and west of the Coolidge Dam).

Since this is the only species that I own (until next week, Yay!) I have researched it as well as I could and found an excellent old article by a USDA scientist in AESA 30:1, "Biology of the Bordered Mantid, Stagomoomantis Limbata Hahn" available in its entirety (13pp.) on the Internet.

The Bureau of Entomology raised this insect outside, but in captivity, in an "insectary" between 1932 - 1934 for three generations, and though many entomological theories have come and gone since then, this factual report is as valid now as it was then.

During the three years in question, the monthly mean temperature never exceeded 86.3F or fell below F50.1. This is in marked contrast to current temperatures. In Nov. '33, the mean temp was 75.9, today, the high is F89.2, 12F above the modern average. Mean humidity ranged between 54.3% and 70%; yesterday's average was 28%

Of particular interest to me was the fact that in the first generation, the mean average time for males to develope to maturity was 7 days less than the females, but in the next generation, females developed on an average of ten days faster than the males and the third generation was almost a dead heat, and the M:F ratio in all three years was close to 1:1!

All of the mantises hatched out of doors, but the author inferred diapause ("hibernation") from the fact that they wintered as ovae.

All three generations, on average, hatched between early March and early May with a minimum incubation time of 140 days and a maximum of 209.

No eggs were produced by parthenogenesis, but virgin females produced fertile ooths when mated for the first time 50 days after reaching maturity.

Arkanis:

From the recent temperatures that you cite, 85F- 97F, I imagine that you live in SE California (what we refer to as "west of Arizona") -- El Centro, perhaps, Mexicali? So far as I know, though, those towns don't get any frost, do they? S. limbata has only strayed across the Colorado River in the past fifty years or so, but if global warming continues to elevate Fall temperatures, it looks as though nymphs will have to adapt to overwintering or die and join all of those other recently wild critters (remember all of those lovely Malawi cichlids?) that now only exist in captivity.

I have an ootheca that was laid within hours of the female' s capture early this month and which I am wintering outside, now that the temperature is in the low nineties (everyone says, "love the cool weather!"). I shall let you know how it goes. Since it would not be misted in nature, I shall not do so, either

 
You are right and you are wrong, Salamonis.
PhilinYuma,

Let's back up here a second. Where did I say anything other than Stagmomantis limbata in nature would have laid oothecae already??? I didn't say that S. limbata was done laying oothecae and I didn't say that S. limbata females laid only one ootheca per season.

How am I wrong?

Scott

P.S. Depositing an ootheca without mating is not parthenogenesis. It's only parthenogenesis if the eggs are fertile. The words "diapause" and "hibernation" are not interchangeable. Arkanis lives in Altadena, CA which is next to Pasadena.

 
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Thanks folks - even again today I saw a second recently hatched Green Lynx spider eggcase with mother and spiderlings. It does seem odd to me as I assume they would hatch in early spring.

Scott noted that some years ago mostly S. Californica and Chinese mantis (correct me if wrong). Recently seems mostly S. Limbata from what people around So. Cal post on this list (excepting Woo with the O. Oratoria). That too seems odd if they just crossed the river 50 years ago to become the dominant species some 150 odd miles from the river!

If the dainty and dieting S. Californica that I caught is any measure of the species, then it is no wonder to me that S. Limbatas are everywhere around here and dominant since they are unabashed piglets and avowed chihuahua taunters!

Philinuma, did i understand you correctly that if temps are too hot too early that mantid species that hatch early and are unable to adapt to overwintering may go the way of the Dodo? That would truly be sad.

Plilinuma, could you please post a link to that article you mentioned? I searched for it to no avail. I would love to read that.

~Arkanis

 
Thanks folks - even again today I saw a second recently hatched Green Lynx spider eggcase with mother and spiderlings. It does seem odd to me as I assume they would hatch in early spring.
If the Green Lynx spider you found is Peucetia viridans, the eggs hatch about this time of year. The species overwinters as early instar spiderlings. So what you are seeing is normal for the species.

Scott

 
Scott noted that some years ago mostly S. Californica and Chinese mantis (correct me if wrong). Recently seems mostly S. Limbata from what people around So. Cal post on this list (excepting Woo with the O. Oratoria). That too seems odd if they just crossed the river 50 years ago to become the dominant species some 150 odd miles from the river!
Arkanis,

I never came across Stagmomantis limbata in the Pasadena area some 30 years ago. But that does not mean they were not present. I was just one person and I did not go looking for S. limbata. They could have been quite common and I just never looked in the right place at the right time.

Scott

 
PhilinYuma,Let's back up here a second. Where did I say anything other than Stagmomantis limbata in nature would have laid oothecae already??? I didn't say that S. limbata was done laying oothecae and I didn't say that S. limbata females laid only one ootheca per season.

How am I wrong?

Scott

P.S. Depositing an ootheca without mating is not parthenogenesis. It's only parthenogenesis if the eggs are fertile. The words "diapause" and "hibernation" are not interchangeable. Arkanis lives in Altadena, CA which is next Pasadena.
Bless your rebarbative heart, Salomonis!!

If you simply meant that S. Limbata had laid a couple of oothecae and might well go on to lay some more between now and December, then you are absolutely right!

I never said or thought that parthenogenesis was depositing an infertile ooth (but thanks for the heads up, anyway!), so we agree on that one, too.

I suspect that you have not yet read the article in question. I think that the term "diapause" came into use around the mid thirties, and there is no doubt from the context, that the author was using "hibernation" to mean what we would now call diapause. I did dig out my aged Fundamentals of Insect Life by Metcalf and Flint that came out in 1932, and found no mention of diapause. In their discussion of hibernation, though (p.484), they say: "Some insects that winter in the egg stage do not begin embryonic development until spring..." That sound a lot like daipause to me; what do you think?

Do you have a dog, Salomonis? Mine wants to be walked, so off I go.

 
Bless your rebarbative heart, Salomonis!!If you simply meant that S. Limbata had laid a couple of oothecae and might well go on to lay some more between now and December, then you are absolutely right!
PhilinYuma,

People tend to get rebarbative when you put words in their mouth (you have done so several times) and say they are wrong when they are not.

When I said that "Stagmomantis limbata in nature would have laid oothecae already", that is exactly what I meant. I don't know why you think I am talking about individual S. limbata. As a species, S. limbata has laid oothecae already.

If you look at the context of the comment, it was in response Rick asking if the wild mantids [S. limbata] in the area had laid oothecae yet. Yes, they have.

I did not mean, simply or otherwise, that S. Limbata had laid a couple of oothecae and might well go on to lay some more between now and December.

Scott

P.S. William Morton Wheeler, a famous American Entomologist, coined the term "diapause" in 1893.

 
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PhilinYuma,

People tend to get rebarbative when you put words in their mouth (you have done so several times) and say they are wrong when they are not.

When I said that "Stagmomantis limbata in nature would have laid oothecae already", that is exactly what I meant. I don't know why you think I am talking about individual S. limbata. As a species, S. limbata has laid oothecae already.

If you look at the context of the comment, it was in response Rick asking if the wild mantids [S. limbata] in the area had laid oothecae yet. Yes, they have.

I did not mean, simply or otherwise, that S. Limbata had laid a couple of oothecae and might well go on to lay some more between now and December.

Scott

Well thank goodness, that's sorted! I notice that you didn't reply to my other two points in answer to your kind efforts to educate me on the meaning of "parthenogenesis" and "diapause" (though I didn't know that the famous American Entomologis" coined the term so late) so I guess (hope) that you are happy with them. And thanks for overlooking my inexcusable rendering of "S. Limbata". (ouch!). As you may have guessed, my dog does most of my typing, and his attention wanders when he is waiting to be walked.
 
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Thanks folks - even again today I saw a second recently hatched Green Lynx spider eggcase with mother and spiderlings. It does seem odd to me as I assume they would hatch in early spring.Scott noted that some years ago mostly S. Californica and Chinese mantis (correct me if wrong). Recently seems mostly S. Limbata from what people around So. Cal post on this list (excepting Woo with the O. Oratoria). That too seems odd if they just crossed the river 50 years ago to become the dominant species some 150 odd miles from the river!

If the dainty and dieting S. Californica that I caught is any measure of the species, then it is no wonder to me that S. Limbatas are everywhere around here and dominant since they are unabashed piglets and avowed chihuahua taunters!

Philinuma, did i understand you correctly that if temps are too hot too early that mantid species that hatch early and are unable to adapt to overwintering may go the way of the Dodo? That would truly be sad.

Plilinuma, could you please post a link to that article you mentioned? I searched for it to no avail. I would love to read that.

~Arkanis
Arkanis: I don't know the green lynx spider, but in the past few weeks, black widow egg sacs have been hatching, sending their nasy offspring everywhere. This is the norm here, so perhaps the mantis nymphs will find small food, too.

In the article that I cited (http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=chla;cc=chla;sid=539ff46e38a31a8f4c3e300856fc4560;rgn=full%20text;idno=5077679_146_001;view=image;seq=0115 by the way), the author stated that S. limbata ony occured in Texas, New Mexico and Arizona at the time of writing. Like the European mantis that came to the U.S. as a stowaway, I imagine that S. limbata hitched a ride on trucks bringing lechuga, bails of hay and what-have-you down the I8. The pinchy migra that stop cars as they enter California probably would't recognize one if they looked right at it.

The Yuman strain do more than taunt chihuahuas. This morning I had to go and buy crickets for the mantises because I had run out of flies, and they were eyeing my lab in a distictly predatory way. When I caught them, I had nothing to feed them and tossed them a few few fire ants. They chewed them down, mandibles, stingers, and all (as you know, they don't use formic acid for trail laying), but now that they are pampered, they don't look at them.

I would guess that the fate of nymphs that hatch in the fall would depend less on the availability of food (though I don't know that from direct observation, of course) than on the occurence of a frost deep enough to kill them. I didn't think that you had frosts in Pasadena, at least in most years, though, but you mention frost, so am I wrong? Frost is definitely not a problem here.

My lone ootheca is sitting outside now. If it hatches, I shall bring the nymphs in doors to watch them grow. I'll let you know what happens and hope that you do likewise.

 
Philinuma, did i understand you correctly that if temps are too hot too early that mantid species that hatch early and are unable to adapt to overwintering may go the way of the Dodo? That would truly be sad.Plilinuma, could you please post a link to that article you mentioned? I searched for it to no avail. I would love to read that.
Arkanis,

I read the article. The tests were conducted outdoors in Uvalde, TX, which is just outside San Antonio. It states that Stagmomantis limbata produced only one generation per year. The oothecae were laid starting in August and did not hatch until about March 1st.

Considering how hot it is in the San Antonio area in August through September and into October, I don't see how facultative diapause in S. limbata could be induced by anything other than a change in photoperiod for that study. It doesn't get cold soon enough to induce diapause before the oothecae would hatch. But it is possible that either cold or photoperiod could induce diapause.

If the diapause was obligate, then colder temperatures would be needed to break diapause. But I have been told the only mantid in the US that has an obligate diapause is Mantis religiosa.

All very interesting!

Scott

 
PhilinYuma,

The way you used the word "parthenogenesis" suggested you thought it was something different than what it is. I can only go by what you write.

In regards to diapause versus hibernation, here you go:

http://www.diapausefoundation.org/index.php?link=education

Scott

Re. "parthenogenesis": Your inference, not my implication. You wouldn't be putting words in my mouth, now would you? LOL!

Re. "diapause v. hibernation" Thanks for the URL, but I don't need it. While I have to admire your thoughtfulness and industry in providing URLs of basic definitions, I have a bachelor's in biology and a PhD in English (I had a lot of free time in my youth!). That background, together with an OED and both the Cambridge and Oxford biological dictionaries (good, English references all!) serve most of my etymological and entomological needs.

As I mentioned, and you have discovered for yourself, R. Roberts wrote before "diapause" was coined, but what he calls "hibernation" appears, from his description, to be "diapause".

I hope that this clarifies things for you.

A bit off topic, I was thinking earlier about an old American expression that had something to do with being kicked to death by a canary. Do you know it?
 
I absolutely love the recent addition of so many brilliant, highly educated minds on this board. It makes for some very interesting, highly entertaining, if not somewhat pointless arguements. :lol:

"Kicked to death by a canary" HA!!!! I love it.

You just made my day Phill! :D

 
PhilinYuma,

My goal was technical accuracy which I think is important when discussing technical subjects. Yours appears to be payback....

You used a conjunction to connect the absence of parthenogenesis with delayed oothecae oviposition. Maybe you can see how one would incorrectly infer your meaning. By the way, I misspoke in regards to parthenogenesis. I said "It's only parthenogenesis if the eggs are fertile." That's incorrect. It's only parthenogenesis if unfertilized eggs hatch.

The Raiford A. Roberts article that you reference was written in 1937. William Morton Wheeler coined the term "diapause" in 1893. The last time I checked, 1893 came before 1937.

Scott

 
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