origin of Phyllocrania stock

[Bug Trader]

Also consider this, the wild population of these species are being hit from many angles, the collecting of them for the hobby is just a fraction of it, pesticides, pollution, and deforestation play the major rolls, what good is reintroducing the mantids into a setting that will just kill them?

 

[grob]

Also consider this, the wild population of these species are being hit from many angles, the collecting of them for the hobby is just a fraction of it, pesticides, pollution, and deforestation play the major rolls, what good is reintroducing the mantids into a setting that will just kill them?

Because we learn from our mistakes sometimes. As we begin to see the value of wild lands we may need populations of species from other than the wild. Captive bred populations can serve this purpose and there are myriad examples of species being reintroduced into the wild to extend their range, black footed ferrets, California condor, Arabian oryx, the red wolf.

We may be slow to realize we need natural areas but we do come around and captive bred populations can help. True, it's less than ideal and captive populations often begin to diverge from wild ones, but they can do the job.

Here in Florida there are a lot of areas being set aside as wild areas but I dont think wild populations of the lichen mimic mantis, Gonatista grisea, has been able to migrate to these new areas where it has been previously exterpated. This is where captive breeding could come in to the picture. A few carefully placed ootheca or nymphs could jumpstart a new population.

It's true, dumping nymphs into their former habitat which is now a walmart is not going to help much, but there are situations where captive breeding could be helpful. Furthermore it's precisely captive breeding that keeps us from having to rely on disappearing wild populations. We should be building up genetic diversity within our collections.

 

[Tony C]

A few carefully placed ootheca or nymphs could jumpstart a new population.

Or it could introduce a novel pathogen which decimates the remaining wild populations. Very careful management from both a genetic and biosecurity point of view is needed for captive populations intended for reintroduction. Read up on past reintroduction efforts and you will see that they are often unsuccessful. The best programs generally involve facilities within the native range of the species being reintroduced, populations in foreign institutions are rarely, if ever, considered suitable.

Enjoy your mantids but don't delude yourself into thinking you will save the world with them, especially those that have been selectively bred for unnatural traits.

 

[Bug Trader]

Because we learn from our mistakes sometimes. As we begin to see the value of wild lands we may need populations of species from other than the wild. Captive bred populations can serve this purpose and there are myriad examples of species being reintroduced into the wild to extend their range, black footed ferrets, California condor, Arabian oryx, the red wolf.

We may be slow to realize we need natural areas but we do come around and captive bred populations can help. True, it's less than ideal and captive populations often begin to diverge from wild ones, but they can do the job.

Here in Florida there are a lot of areas being set aside as wild areas but I dont think wild populations of the lichen mimic mantis, Gonatista grisea, has been able to migrate to these new areas where it has been previously exterpated. This is where captive breeding could come in to the picture. A few carefully placed ootheca or nymphs could jumpstart a new population.

It's true, dumping nymphs into their former habitat which is now a walmart is not going to help much, but there are situations where captive breeding could be helpful. Furthermore it's precisely captive breeding that keeps us from having to rely on disappearing wild populations. We should be building up genetic diversity within our collections.

Your still missing my point, how are your dwarf and color mutations going to help? There is almost no genetic diversity involved after line breeding them generations in to get what you want. You talk about building genetic diversity in our collections but you want to line breed how does this work?

 

[grob]

So you speak of species reintroduction but isnt one of the MUSTS in this to be a very natural and untampered genetic material?I have quite a bit of knowledge in this area, probably argued or debated it with many people atleast far more than anyone on this forum. Now on to getting a species established in captivity, dont you need to be able to manage your lines and track them? How do you do this with an inbred species? And do you think your science experiements are going to replace the natural selection? The only way you will create less demand on wild caught is to collect, breed and establish the natural variation of them.

Well, you are bringing up a lot of interesting issues. I'm not talking about species reintroduction, but yes, it would be nice to have a large captive bred population with great diversity if you want to do a species reintroduction. I don't think it's essential. You have a greater chance of success with a diverse population, but diversity can rebound after a bottleneck. California condors and the Arabian oryx were down to a few indiviuals and came back.

Inbreeding is an important issue and it can be fatal to populations. Then again, there are lots of examples of inbred populations that were able to go on. I think hamsters are the best example. All the golden or Syrian hamsters in captivity came from one littler of 12 from the 1930s. Now these hamsters are ubiquitous in the pet trade. Now that's inbreeding!

The problems from inbreeding can be real but they can be overcome. Populations can go through a bottleneck and after a tough time of purging deleterious alleles they can emerge as a viable population. There's a nice article in one of the UK mantis forum newsletters on inbreeding.

No matter what the difficulties, they shouldn't stop anyone from trying to start their own population and establish lines. Yes, I think it's important to track your lines and try to preserve and cultivate any diversity you have in your population, that's why I'd like to know the history of Phyllocrania paradoxa in captivity.

 

[grob]

Your still missing my point, how are your dwarf and color mutations going to help? There is almost no genetic diversity involved after line breeding them generations in to get what you want. You talk about building genetic diversity in our collections but you want to line breed how does this work?

Oh, I see. It's not going to help. It's just something to do for fun, because it's interesting, because I want a line of white Phyllocrania. I also want to maintain a large population so I would have a larger genetic base to work with. The goals of having a viable captive population are different from selecting fo a particular color form or morph, but both benefit from having a large population and it seems you could do both at once. Maybe it's too ambitious, but I'm going to try.

 

[grob]

Or it could introduce a novel pathogen which decimates the remaining wild populations. Very careful management from both a genetic and biosecurity point of view is needed for captive populations intended for reintroduction. Read up on past reintroduction efforts and you will see that they are often unsuccessful. The best programs generally involve facilities within the native range of the species being reintroduced, populations in foreign institutions are rarely, if ever, considered suitable.

Enjoy your mantids but don't delude yourself into thinking you will save the world with them, especially those that have been selectively bred for unnatural traits.

Ugh, bulleting boards can be exhausting.

I'm not talking about reintroduction of Phyllocrania paradoxa. Since it's spread over a huge continent, I don't think that's a problem. I'm asking about the history of Phyllocrania in captivity. Did anyone write anything down? When did people start raising them? 2000? 1980? 1960? 2010?

And I love the wild type, it's my favorite animal. I want to have a population of them. I think it's cool to see the variety that arises in populations and I may want to select for something and have a strain of green/grey/giant/tiny ghosts. If nothing arises, that's fine. I'll have the wonderful wild type Phyllocrania.

And I have read up on reintroductions. I know they don't always work. If things don't always work do you not try them? I'll continue to delude myself that I can save the world, for mantidkind.

 

[Paradoxica]

Anyone know where the Phyllocrania paradoxa that are in culture in the US are originally from? I see they range over much of Africa, but where do ours come from?

When they were brought into culture and who brought them in?

Or have they been imported several times over the years and it's difficult to trace the stock?

Thanks, --rob

This is a question that I would direct toward our very own Peter Clausen, as he had a hand in coining the name "Ghost Mantis" back in 2001 or so. He may be the man who can trace the origins of the species in US culture.