Pet store feeder woes

[CosbyArt]

@Krissim Klaw If the pets are really popular it could also be people are getting cultures from their pet friends/clubs and such too. A good idea to request flies, and I'll try next time I am not in immediate need of them.

I do a bit of both myself in letting FF cultures die-off or continue until needed again. Honestly though it seems I plan to keep them going but eventually wait too long to start a new culture at some point. Price wise I agree, the $0.50 a month to restart a culture is much better than the cost of driving to a pet store (about 60 miles for me round trip), or priority/over-night shipping to buy them each time - and the stress of worrying about getting them soon enough.

Nice, I bet it adds a change of pace in feeders to the mantises too. I've done it in the past too but mine seemed more annoyed than fed, but was great for mantises with feeding issues.

If you aren't completely freaked out by the little jumpers (see the 2nd comment by Potato Man) they are a good excuse to use up the excess Hydei. Funny enough most think they are even cute with their wide eyes and "eyebrow" hairs, even if they don't want to be near them. While most adult jumpers happily take down bottle flies their own size, they are just as content with Hydei most times. Anymore I'm sure if I figured out my pet numbers I've kept, and usually have currently, (not counting nymphs) more of my pets are jumpers than mantids.

 

[Serle]

We have a pet store in Vernon that I have asked for F.F's , they don't stock them but ordered from a supplier . The next week I went back and they had a culture in for $15.95 . Problem it was dead , I have thrown better cultures out . The staff kept telling me that the white spots were eggs , they weren't .  A couple weeks later I went back the culture was gone and another (DEAD) one was in stock $19.95 , I suppose they found a market some where .........  S

 

[Krissim Klaw]

If you aren't completely freaked out by the little jumpers (see the 2nd comment by Potato Man) they are a good excuse to use up the excess Hydei. Funny enough most think they are even cute with their wide eyes and "eyebrow" hairs, even if they don't want to be near them. While most adult jumpers happily take down bottle flies their own size, they are just as content with Hydei most times. Anymore I'm sure if I figured out my pet numbers I've kept, and usually have currently, (not counting nymphs) more of my pets are jumpers than mantids.

Lol too lazy to take on more pets right now, but I regularly hand offer fruit flies to the jumpers outside when I make new cultures. I will get some of the escapees in the process and just go up to the jumping spiders around the porch so I can watch them hop over and grab them off my hand. So cute.

 

[CosbyArt]

We have a pet store in Vernon that I have asked for F.F's , they don't stock them but ordered from a supplier . The next week I went back and they had a culture in for $15.95 . Problem it was dead , I have thrown better cultures out . The staff kept telling me that the white spots were eggs , they weren't .  A couple weeks later I went back the culture was gone and another (DEAD) one was in stock $19.95 , I suppose they found a market some where .........  S

I had a online seller tell me the same thing about the white spots, and wait a few days. All that came of it was a population explosion of mites that I was ready for, as I had it sitting in another room in a pan of water so they did not spread. Thankfully with a photo after waiting though I was refunded.

Strange customers would buy those dead cultures for those kind of prices too. I guess the container was worth the price.

Lol too lazy to take on more pets right now, but I regularly hand offer fruit flies to the jumpers outside when I make new cultures. I will get some of the escapees in the process and just go up to the jumping spiders around the porch so I can watch them hop over and grab them off my hand. So cute.

That's great! Glad to hear your not in the terrified group as they really are inquisitive, easy to keep, and a bit cute.

 

[Mystymantis]

I recently bought some medium/large crickets at my local petstore, and nearly every one of them died within 2 days! They appeared very sickly, their back legs were being held up, and they were twitching? I don't know what was wrong.

But the small crickets I bought that same day were fine...so I am not sure what went wrong with the larger ones. Normally when I get crickets it isn't that bad, I suppose either they got a bad stock, or the weather was bad for them and the crickets just died or had a disease?

 

[Ocelotbren]

I recently bought some medium/large crickets at my local petstore, and nearly every one of them died within 2 days! They appeared very sickly, their back legs were being held up, and they were twitching? I don't know what was wrong.

But the small crickets I bought that same day were fine...so I am not sure what went wrong with the larger ones. Normally when I get crickets it isn't that bad, I suppose either they got a bad stock, or the weather was bad for them and the crickets just died or had a disease?

I think I know what you mean about their back legs being held up, and I have also seen that in my crickets.  No idea on the implications though...I have very little experience with crickets.  I do have unexplained die offs in each newly bought batch though within the first few days.

I've also possibly had issues with pet store crickets I bought last week, but I'm not sure.  My adult female Chinese mantis has had crickets before, although not that often, and with this batch, even after quarantining them, she took a few bites and dropped them, but was still eating her blue bottle flies.

I have read here and there that mantids will refuse food if they know it's going to hurt them, although I couldn't find where I saw that posted.  But can they really tell while eating that the food is bad?  Could my Chinese mantis really take a bite, determine that the cricket is no good, and know to drop it?

I tried feeding her another cricket yesterday and she dropped it after a bite again.  She seems like she's getting ready to lay an ooth so I'm not ruling out that she just doesn't want to eat right now, but last week I tried with two different crickets from the batch and she dropped both.

 

[Bathory]

@Mystymantis could they have been old? Crickets do tend to show when they are old/dying, with crumpled wings and dull colors. Worst case scenario is CPV, but supposedly they flip onto their backs and die. I'd quarantine the small ones for a while to see if they make it just to be sure. 

@Ocelotbren my Hierodula would throw crickets if they were too big for her when she was smaller. Since the most common reason I see for premature death in mantids is bad feeders I really doubt they'd be able to tell good insects from bad ones. Maybe she's just picky and prefers flying prey?

 

[Mystymantis]

@Mystymantis could they have been old? Crickets do tend to show when they are old/dying, with crumpled wings and dull colors. Worst case scenario is CPV, but supposedly they flip onto their backs and die. I'd quarantine the small ones for a while to see if they make it just to be sure. 

@Ocelotbren my Hierodula would throw crickets if they were too big for her when she was smaller. Since the most common reason I see for premature death in mantids is bad feeders I really doubt they'd be able to tell good insects from bad ones. Maybe she's just picky and prefers flying prey?

@Bathory No, the crickets were not old as they were still nymphs just larger nymphs then the really small batch. I really hope it isn't CPV though. But I have no idea why they seemed to be all sick and died. The smaller ones are doing fine right now. No signs of the symptoms the older ones had. Quarantine is a good idea.

Thanks

 

[CosbyArt]

@Mystymantis Indeed it could very well be the cricket virus CrPV/CrPVvic/AdDNV, and it's various strains. I have heard of a few keepers that had crickets displaying the symptoms recently. That is the cricket will lay on it's back rapidly flaring it's legs (even if flipped over), before becoming paralyzed, and dying.

Typically crickets exposed to prolonged excessive cold will become lethargic (barley moving) and simply die, a few may end up on their backs and do a bit of leg flaring as they die; however, if you seen many crickets preforming that action on their backs it does point to CrPV.

@Ocelotbren Perhaps your girl simply prefers the bottle flies due to "taste"/smell/texture.

If a mantid is able to tell if a feeder is bad or not by taste/smell/appearance/etc is debatable, and can vary with mantid individuals. Overall I'd say if I had to put a number on it I'd say mantids can discern typical bad feeders 90% of the time - the feeders that could lead to their death.

That is if the feeder has a natural/plant toxin, like a wild large milkweed bug (Oncopeltus fasciatus), nearly all mantids will avoid it altogether. If they simply avoid it as they recognized the bright warning colors and are reacting, detecting a odor, or something else is a topic I have not read scientifically. I do know the milkweed bug if bred in captivity on unsalted shelled sunflower seeds will remove the toxin, and has been used as mantid feeder cultures in the past - so the bright colors apparently are not the factor for mantids deciding to eat a possible feeder.

However if the mantid took a bite and spits/vomits it out then it is detecting a taste/odor apparently to have the reaction.

The problem is not all things are so obvious to discern from a possible bad feeder, especially bacteria. In which case some mantids may eat much more of a feeder, before it realizes a problem, if it does at all. Which can lead to sickness or death depending on the amount ate/toxicity/and other factors.

Thankfully though from my past mantids (and many other keepers I have read) that tends to be few cases, and mostly from certain wild caught insect species that should not have been used. The more common problem species is a firefly (Lampyridae sp.) that some have used as a feeder when they become numerous. The luciferin used for the firefly glow is highly toxic to mantids. While some mantids can eat a firefly excluding the abdomen (with the majority of the chemical) and be fine, some other mantids have not survived eating any portion of a firefly.

If your talking strictly about cricket feeders I've never had a mantid related issue from the many thousands I have fed to mantids (even straight from a pet store when I first started). I have not heard of problems from numerous others as well, here is one , at least any crickets that were cared for properly. It seems in most cases even if the crickets were not cared for, it usually results in some mantid sickness they recover from.

 

[Bathory]

I just found a cricket on its back and I had one die yesterday. Guess who's gonna feed with just wax moths for a couple of days...

 

[Ocelotbren]

@Bathory @CosbyArt Yeah, I guess it is possible she is just becoming picky in her old age haha.  It just seemed unlikely since I was under the impression that Chinese mantids are pretty voracious and unpicky eaters, and she did accept crickets at one point.  But I don't need to feed her crickets; it was just a larger alternative to replace tons of blue bottle flies once in a while.

Also CosbyArt, that is interesting stuff about the possibly toxic feeders!  Especially that mantids will eat the normally toxic milkweed bug if the toxicity was bred out of them.

 

[CosbyArt]

@Ocelotbren Likely she avoids crickets waiting for the flies to return as she is well fed and in no hurry. Be glad she isn't hooked on waxworm moths, which are hard to keep staged so moths are always available.

When I fed waxworm moths some mantids became hooked and barely would eat other feeders too including even bottle flies. Waxworm moths are the insect world's twinkie junk food - most mantids will choose it when given a choice between any other feeder. The problem with them though is their high fat content and little else, so should be used as a treat.

Feeder varieties is interesting and with plenty of species that can be cultured too. I've posted large lists of species in the past, and it seems there are occasionally new ones to add from member comments. The only problem though is species availability usually which also causes a lack of culture information. For the large milkweed bug (Oncopeltus fasciatus) as a feeder, see my attempts, and others who have kept them, from here. Carolina supply also has a caresheet for them too.

 

[Nanodot]

Most of my recent trips to other pet stores too has resulted in out of stock feeders, rotten fruit fly cultures, half-dead waxworms, phoenix worms that already emerged as adult soldier flies, and such. It doesn't seem to matter if it is a chain pet store, local mom-and-pop store, or whatever.

I'm having great luck with black soldier flies right now.  The larvae are extremely easy to raise to pupae, and my gongy's love the emerged flies.  The flies are large, harmless, and more sedentary than bluebottles.  They don't buzz around so much that the gongys are bothered by the flies being left in their terrarium for laters.    My mantids like them almost as much as they like wax moths.      Does anyone have experience using soldier flies as primary feeders?  

In most parts of the country, a small outdoor composter will generate all the BSF you want for free.  

 

[Ocelotbren]

@CosbyArt Hah, I guess that could be it.  Thanks for the information and links!

 

[Nanodot]

http://pubmedcentralcanada.ca/pmcc/articles/PMC5552164/ 

soldier fly crude protein shows its maximum value being 57.6% at postmortem adult stage with 21.6% fat level. 

 

[CosbyArt]

I'm having great luck with black soldier flies right now.  The larvae are extremely easy to raise to pupae, and my gongy's love the emerged flies.  The flies are large, harmless, and more sedentary than bluebottles.  They don't buzz around so much that the gongys are bothered by the flies being left in their terrarium for laters.    My mantids like them almost as much as they like wax moths.      Does anyone have experience using soldier flies as primary feeders?  

In most parts of the country, a small outdoor composter will generate all the BSF you want for free.  

You may want to send some PMs to members if you have questions, and don't get a response here. I haven't tried them yet, but is on my list of things to do. There are several members lately who have been using BSF's though...

@CosbyArt Hah, I guess that could be it.  Thanks for the information and links!

Your welcome and best of luck.