Right size B. Dubia for adult T. sinensis?

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Deacon

Deacon

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B. Dubia roaches just arrived today. (It has gotten too cold at night to sit out for two hours waiting for a moth to come along!) The roaches are much bigger than I had imagined even though they are not adults. I keep looking at them and then at my female mated T. sinensis and they seem huge for her. Yet, I've seen where some of you feed these roaches. So, what is the right size? They just seem so solid compared to a large moth.

Also, one big roach molted this afternoon. Would that be a better choice to feed? Since she never leaves the top of her cage, and these roaches don't climb, it appears I have to hand them to her (I'm still at the "ugh" stage since they really hung onto my hands when I transferred them this morning!) Any advice/

 
Deacon said:
B. Dubia roaches just arrived today. (It has gotten too cold at night to sit out for two hours waiting for a moth to come along!) The roaches are much bigger than I had imagined even though they are not adults. I keep looking at them and then at my female mated T. sinensis and they seem huge for her. Yet, I've seen where some of you feed these roaches. So, what is the right size? They just seem so solid compared to a large moth.

Also, one big roach molted this afternoon. Would that be a better choice to feed? Since she never leaves the top of her cage, and these roaches don't climb, it appears I have to hand them to her (I'm still at the "ugh" stage since they really hung onto my hands when I transferred them this morning!) Any advice/
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I haven't feed my mantids roaches (one of the few common feeders out of so many I've used) but the typical guidelines apply. Most mantids want feeders that are about 50% of their size or larger, as long as the feeder doesn't pose a threat - roaches don't. In the case of a Chinese mantid a adult should have no problem eating a adult dubia. From the Chinese mantid caresheet it states for feeding dubia, "mature dubia roach for adult female".

The adults of the Tenodera species have been known to catch and eat hummingbirds, rodents, and other things much larger than itself (videos on youtube of it even). Try feeding your mantids and if it is too large of a feeder you can always swap it out for a smaller one, which shouldn't be needed though as they are one heck of a eating machine. ;)

To help get over the ugh/ick stage of cockroaches though you can always handle them using tweezers/tongs or simply wear some gloves.

 
LAME said:
I feed both my Chinese and Griffin mantids full grown dubia roaches without issue.
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I wondered how long it would take "the one and only" to see this topic. :D

It's kind of amazing the size, girth, of those cockroaches though. I'm curious, how big are your Griffins truly that eat the dubia? As I've seen it listed they get 5", but my adult Griffins are between 3 to 4" (not counting antenna length lol).

 
I only have Griffin mantis "ivy" left... She's a fatty... But not as big as the Chinese. I'd say close to 4 inches. But nowhere close to the bulk of any Chinese female I've owned. Honestly, the Griffin IS a pretty powerful beast, but I was let down... I also have read 5 inches

Edit: hahahaha, ah yes... The one and only. ;)

Yeah unfortunately I've had like... Zero time to update anything. :(

But I try to pop in, just to keep eye on all my friends. :)

 
Last edited by a moderator:
LAME said:
I only have Griffin mantis "ivy" left... She's a fatty... But not as big as the Chinese. I'd say close to 4 inches. But nowhere close to the bulk of any Chinese female I've owned. Honestly, the Griffin IS a pretty powerful beast, but I was let down... I also have read 5 inches

Edit: hahahaha, ah yes... The one and only. ;)

Yeah unfortunately I've had like... Zero time to update anything. :(

But I try to pop in, just to keep eye on all my friends. :)
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Okay glad to see I didn't get runts :D Yeah, I remember that discussion when you decided to get them from Kevin originally and I got a few from you. ;) Too bad though someone included their antenna or their thumb in the measurement. I did/do like my Griffins though even though it wasn't 5".

Glad you still say hi. Life does get in the way at times for sure. Hopefully things return back to normal soon.

LAME said:
That measurement is from top of wing to the tip of her head. 4 inches.

(not included antennae.) :)
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Sounds like what I was getting too in length. Thanks for verifying it.

To get back on topic... roaches, roaches, Dubia... ;) but seriously a sub or adult Tenodera should enjoy a Dubia on any size including adults.

 
A lot of people that use dubias as feeders strictly use the nymphs as feeders while letting those that reach adulthood act as breeders. Some of the larger mantises can handle fullsize dubia just find, but I tend to find that to be overkill. The nice thing about getting a breeder bin going is you can pick whatever size you feel is best. Since you are just starting out I would personally feed the smaller/younger individuals so the others can reach adulthood as soon as possible and start breeding more for you.

I would suggest against using your hands to feed the mantis. It is too easy for them to miss and accidently snag you instead. There are a number of options you can go with as far as feeding. You can get someting with a bit of texture to let the roach hang on and lift it up and wiggle it infront of the mantis (something light colored works good so the roach shows up against it well in contrast). You can also use large tweasers to offer the roach. Another method I've used in the past is I will drop the feeder into one of the little plastic cups and hold the cup up to the mantis. The bug will tipically be moving around the bottom of the cup and the mantis will see it and lean in and snag it.

T. sinensis females tend to be piggies so they don't typically need a lot of encouragement to eat. I've watched more than a few run marathons around 2-3 foot cages because they weren't patient enough to wait for the food to come to them.

 
Once your colony has become well established (offspring are having offspring) it's actually a good idea to feed as many adult males as possible so that you have several females per each male. If there's too many then their constant fighting will disturb the colony, plus females who are constantly being pestered may drop their eggcases. It doesn't even matter if you feed off all your males, as females retain sperm for a long time and if the colony has had the better part of a year to develop they will be replaced within days by new subadults. For mantids big enough to eat them, the males make better feeders because they're more active and easier to grip then nymphs.

If you want you're colony to grow, never feed females. Small nymphs can't be sexed, but larger ones can by counting /looking at the shape of their abdominal segments. If it's big enough to sex don't feed it without checking.

 
I will add... I don't usually feed off my adult female's... I do keep them for breeding.

Another good roach I've been using is the Madagascar hissers. The female's of those roaches are CRAZY HUGE. Lol

 
I'm getting frustrated with the roach thing. I've tried long tweezers, presenting the roach head first, upside down, and side-ways---my T. sinensis just pushes it away or climbs the tweezers onto me. I've tried the cup idea---even flipped the roach upside down so its wiggly legs show---she climbs over the cup onto me. I tried putting them both in the sink---she just climbs out. I've left a roach in a cup, like a cottage cheese carton, in her cage (it has food and water crystals) and it is still there unscathed three days later.

She mated 16 days ago. Do female mantids not eat if they are going to lay an ootheca? (This mantis is the one with the prolapsed anus and she is crabby now.) I've read that she could lay anytime in the next couple of weeks.

I'm just perplexed with her. She is only getting BB flies.

 
Deacon said:
...

She mated 16 days ago. Do female mantids not eat if they are going to lay an ootheca? (This mantis is the one with the prolapsed anus and she is crabby now.) I've read that she could lay anytime in the next couple of weeks.

I'm just perplexed with her. She is only getting BB flies.
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Indeed they do, and the more they eat the larger the ootheca they will lay. Mine typically eat a lot while gravid, to ensure large ooths. Right before laying however they will stop eating, much like molting. Once they lay an ooth though they are usually really hungry from the experience.

How many BB flies is she eating? I know my Chinese mantid girls will go through 10 to 15 GB/BB flies daily if I offer them to the girls. Perhaps your female is getting ready to lay her ooth, or is eating enough BB flies that she isn't interested in the roaches.

 
Deacon said:
I'm getting frustrated with the roach thing. I've tried long tweezers, presenting the roach head first, upside down, and side-ways---my T. sinensis just pushes it away or climbs the tweezers onto me. I've tried the cup idea---even flipped the roach upside down so its wiggly legs show---she climbs over the cup onto me. I tried putting them both in the sink---she just climbs out. I've left a roach in a cup, like a cottage cheese carton, in her cage (it has food and water crystals) and it is still there unscathed three days later.
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She most likely isn't reading it as prey. It is possible the size may also be off putting to her. Although females tend to be pretty voracious, some can be more timid than others when it comes to larger prey. T. sinensis can be a pain to hand feed in these situations because they are super active and tend to want to crawl once they see you.

The simplest solution might be to kill the roach and split it slightly so it gets a bit gooey. Then carefully offer it to her mandibles so she can taste the gooey part. She should start eating and then after a few seconds grab the prey and hold it herself. If you do this method, try to come from the side/underneath so as not to startle her. If she sees it and flairs or tries to reach at it to climb on, try again from a different angle.

If you haven't already tried it you could also try sitting her on something like a paper plate/other flat surface than prodding the roach forward so it walks in front of her.

 
Thank you so much. I will try the "kill" idea tomorrow as she seems really put off by the roach's waving, clinging feet (kind of like I am too.) She did rip off a leg of one in tweezers (and eat it) tonight because it was hanging onto her face but then she knocked it away. Tried many more times to get her to take it but not having it. The male actually ate the top of the head of one tonight and then dropped it--it could still run away so can't say he got much. I'll keep trying :donatello:

I've been assuming the mantids only eat the undersides and not the backs of the nymph roaches, right?

 
Hungry mantids will eat the entire nymph, but ones that are already well fed might only eat a portion of it and drop the rest. If you have multiple mantids you can always split one in two and feed half to each mantis. I just noticed in a higher post you mentioned this is the female with the issue to her rump. Personally I would probably be feeding her on the lighter end when it comes to meals anyways to try and keep from putting unneccessary strain on her body.

 
Thank you again for your ideas and observations Looks like she only ate 3 BB flies, 1 roach leg, and 1 wax worm moth last night so not over-eating by any standards. Her abdomen is wide, looks full, but not round like some of the female mantid photos (other species.)

I'll try offering her a freshly killed roach, if I can get it accomplished, but they seem very sturdy considering how many times I've grabbed them with tweezers and they still run around! Re: splitting a roach in half---like tweezing it and cutting it down the middle?

 
Krissim Klaw, your idea is working. I used a toothpick to sort of destroy the chest area of a B. dubia and with tweezers, stuck it in my mantid's face. He buried his nose in it and chomped for about five minutes. It's a start! Thank you for the idea!

 

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