Sack of Air Sticking Out of Abdomen!?

[Rotsuoy]

I woke up this morning to a pale mantis and I knew she had molted, so I went about my morning routine to let her dry and harden.

I came back a little while later and there is a MASSIVE bubble sticking out of her side!

WHAT AM I LOOKING AT!? I thought it was intestines but wouldn't intestines be full of fluids and not AIR!?

 

[MantisGirl13]

I've never seen anything quite like this before. Is there any fluid in the sac? Does it seem to hinder her in any way? Can you get a clearer pic?

- MantisGirl13

 

[Rotsuoy]

I've never seen anything quite like this before. Is there any fluid in the sac? Does it seem to hinder her in any way? Can you get a clearer pic?

- MantisGirl13

There is no fluid int he sac at all. It doesn't seem to hinder her except that it's in the way of her rear leg. I could get a clearer pic, but I'd have to take her out of her enclosure. I can try to be very gentle, but I'm not sure how dry she is after shedding. Her wings are still pretty floppy.

 

[Rotsuoy]

@MantisGirl13

This is the best I could do! My partner left for work and his phone is so much better than mine.

I also didn't want to mess with it too much because it seemed to be stressing her out. Her bottom right wing was still damp and sticking to the sac. It seems to be sticky? And when I would gently try to peel the wing off of the sack to let it sit flat, she'd turn her whole thorax to swat at me as if it hurt to touch but she seemed sluggish. :C

Can you see why I thought it was intestines? It's almost like a tube folded in half. But there's no fluid in it at all! No bile, nothing. It's totally clear!

 

[Rotsuoy]

I just realized it's coming out of right out of the side of her abdomen where the bend was because of her floppy butt. OTL

It looks like it's coming out of the space between her abdomen segments. I wish I could get a better picture but she is absolutely not happy and I don't want to stress her out too bad, especially if she's already in pain.

When I'm not touching it or messing with her though, she seems fine? She's grooming herself.

 

[Rotsuoy]

I hate to keep bumping the thread but I'm trying not to panic. I'd normally feed her after shedding but I'm scared to do so if that's part of her intestines sticking out. If it is part of her intestines sticking out though I guess there's nothing I can do for her anyways. I've done surgery on a friend's tarantula who had a busted abdomen from a fall but nothing was sticking out. I just closed up the abdomen and added a thin layer of nail polish to keep it closed until she could shed. I don't think I can do that for my mantis because I have no idea what this thing is sticking out.

 

[Rotsuoy]

Finally got better pictures! I also added notes to better explain what we're looking at.

Unedited bubble: 

Bubble with notes:

Molt:

Molt with notes:

 

[MrGhostMantis]

Looks like a hemolymph sack. Don’t mess with it. You could try to feed them, the sack will probably just dry up if it has no significance.

 

[Rotsuoy]

Looks like a hemolymph sack. Don’t mess with it. You could try to feed them, the sack will probably just dry up if it has no significance.

I've posted these pictures tons of places and no one has any clue, but most seem to doubt intestines because the skin is so clear and there is no fluid. Someone did suggest a hemolymph sack but couldn't find any good diagrams to show me. A tracheal sack is the only other thing someone has guessed, and after looking at microphotos of acoustic tracheal ruptures in mosquito larvae I can see where that guess would come from.

I definitely don't want to mess with it. I'm worried I might rupture it and it looks like it's deflating. I'm not sure. It just looks more wrinkled and a bit smaller than when I first saw her this morning, but that could just be because it's drying out and shriveling. I'm also worried about her lower right wing. It is very, very wrinkled.

I guess I'll take a stress nap, and come back later to feed her a fat mealworm.

 

[MrGhostMantis]

A wrinkled wing isn’t gonna do anything, did she fall during her molt? Stress naps help  

 

[MantisGirl13]

Not a hemolymph sac. Its probably a casualty of the bend in her abdomen. Keep her alive and comfortable as long as you can, but don't feed her too much and don't mate her.

- MantisGirl13

 

[Rotsuoy]

A wrinkled wing isn’t gonna do anything, did she fall during her molt? Stress naps help  

No, I don't think she fell when she molted. She was hanging on the top and her shed was on the fake plants below her. I still haven't fed her yet. Her abdomen hasn't really changed in shape or size so I doubt she's starving. She also ate quite a bit the day before her molt. The sack is much more wrinkled today. I wonder if it's drying up. I should get dubias today so I may try her on a small one since they are much softer than mealworms- that is, if they aren't all dead. I'm mad at FedEx.

Not a hemolymph sac. Its probably a casualty of the bend in her abdomen. Keep her alive and comfortable as long as you can, but don't feed her too much and don't mate her.

- MantisGirl13

I hadn't made any plans to breed her. I had actually considered re-releasing her once she was an adult (she was wild caught from my garden), so she could find a mate and breed naturally, and do as mantids do in a garden full of bug attracting flowers and herbs. However, that's definitely not something I could bring myself to do now. I wished I would have been more active in keeping her from hanging upside down, but it is what it is. I'm going off of tarantula body language, so I could be wrong, but I don't think she's in any pain. Uncomfortable maybe, especially since she can't move that rear leg back all the way, but she's as spry as ever. She even almost jumped when I took her out for pictures yesterday.

Random thought: The humidity was only around 50 in my office the night/morning she molted. Would that also be a factor? I have thermometers and hygrometers all around my house because I keep freshwater fish, inverts, and/or plants in nearly every room. Since I mist her enclosure nearly daily it was probably closer to 60 directly in her enclosure. I just couldn't find an exact number for humidity for Tenodera.

There's nothing I can do about it now, but I'd like to learn from my mistakes if I'm ever more serious about keeping mantids in the future.

 

[Rotsuoy]

She fell just a little bit ago, and she's having a hard time standing up. Her abdomen looks great overall besides the sack. The sack is small, dark, dry and hard as a rock. I tried picking her up by her thorax since she wouldn't step up on my hand and she reached around and pinched the snot out of my finger with her forelegs, so she still has fight in her. I'm just not sure if her not being able to stand is because of whatever made her fall or if the fall made her not be able to stand. She's been eating and pooping fine. I'm just not sure what to do now.

She's kinda splayed out instead of standing, but she reacts to me touching her antennae and wings. I'm not familiar with mantis behavior like you folks are. Can I get some advice?

 

[Rotsuoy]

I put a wiggly mealworm in front of her, zero feeding response. I pulled off its head and stuck the juices to her mouth, she nibbled for a second and pushed it away. I tried putting it in her claws to feed herself and she just tossed it away. I offered water drops and she pushed herself away.

 

[Rotsuoy]

 

[Mantis Lady]

Never seen this in a mantis before. How is she doing at the moment?

 

[Rotsuoy]

Never seen this in a mantis before. How is she doing at the moment?

Surprisingly she's still alive this morning. I was expecting her to pass in the night. I removed all of her fake plants so she wouldn't be tempted to climb in her current state, and she's sitting not far from where I left her last night. I don't really know what to do besides continuing to offer her food and water. This is kind of what I went through when my tarantula passed a while back, though my tarantula was 18 years old. I just kept offering food and water and leaving her alone but making sure she was comfortable. So I'm definitely up to the task. I just hate this. I feel like she could have lived a lot longer if I would have been more adamant about keeping her from hanging upside down. There's no way to tell how much more is messed up inside of her little body.

But now we all know: Yes, there is a potential problem with floppy butt in Tenadora mantids.

I had looked all over and so many people said that their Tenadoras didn't have any health issues from it, and it would be fine. Sadly, I'm learning it's not fine. Hopefully someone else can learn from my experience.