Shooting at UAHuntsville

[Mantibama]

I don't know if any of you have heard about the shooting at UAH, but I'm actually majoring in biology there. During lab meetings I sit in the room where everyone was shot and it seems surreal. It's so frustrating that they haven't announced who is dead yet. I've never had Dr. Bishop (the shooter) in a class but she always seemed pretty friendly with people whenever I noticed her in the hall. I hope I still have professors teaching my classes come Monday. Why the heck did she kill a bunch of faculty members over not getting tenure? My graduate student friend was sitting in his office right next to the meeting room when he heard someone shout, "Amy we can help you" and then he heard gun shots.... He locked himself in his office until the police showed up. It's insane, and I would have never imagined it happening here. I just don't understand....

 

[Katnapper]

I just read about it (didn't know before your post). It's a bad thing to happen at any school; but when you actually attend that school and have personal connections with the places and possibly people involved... well, I can't imagine how you feel right now. I'm glad you weren't directly involved, and I'm sure we'll all be thinking of you as news of the event unfolds. Hang in there....

 

[PhilinYuma]

I just read about it (didn't know before your post). It's a bad thing to happen at any school; but when you actually attend that school and have personal connections with the places and possibly people involved... well, I can't imagine how you feel right now. I'm glad you weren't directly involved, and I'm sure we'll all be thinking of you as news of the event unfolds. Hang in there....

+1 Sad news indeed, and scary for anyone acquainted with the dead or the alleged killer. America has come to expect this kind of tragedy as an unavoidable consequence of -- or perhaps totally unrelated to -- our constitutional right to bear arms. Guns do not kill people, we have often be told; people kill people, but I know from personal experience that it is very hard to shoot someone without a gun. Without a gun, perhaps this woman would have karate chopped her colleagues to death or stabbed them repeatedly with a scalpel; who can say?

All I know for sure is that one or more senseless tragedies involving a crazed perpetrator and a gun, will occur again in the US before the end of the year, and we shall again, offer grief counselling to those in need of it, Jay Letterman and David Leno will make guarded jokes about the incident, prosecutors will speak of the victims' loved ones for "closure" and the defense will produce an "expert witness" to explain that the accused was in a fugue state from the time just before he/she picked up the gun to just after the cuffs were applied, and citizens will apply for CWPs so that they can deliver frontier justice.

God bless America! We need it!

 

[Mantibama]

Thank you for the support, I truly appreciate your words. While the whole event is a tragedy, unfortunately my cell biology teacher from last semester is dead (Dr. Davis). As of right now, Ms. Steffi, the staff member, is in stable condition, and that's at least some small good news. She has always been a really sweet lady and while her job always seems to be really stressful she would always joke around and make me laugh. The department chair is dead as well... Who knows how they're going to be able to have a stable biology department this semester. Most of the entire department was in the room when Dr. Bishop pulled out the gun and a significant portion of the department is dead or injured. Who knows how traumatized the survivors are. UAH isn't a very big school and the Biology department has always seemed like a close-knit organization. It will make for a peculiar semester, that is for sure.

 

[cloud jaguar]

sorry to hear this was so close to home for you - i can't imagine how terrible you must feel.

 

[idolomantis]

Holy ######...

That is terrible.. I can only imagen how you feel right now.

Damn..

Best of luck from me to everyone there.

 

[Kruszakus]

Seems like this weekend is all about the bad news... I don't know what to say. You know, guns are illegal in Poland, so we don't have shooting sprees like that, but I can reiterate sentiments like the ones above - it must be really tragic when you hear, that someone you knew did such a horrible thing.

 

[Rick]

+1 Sad news indeed, and scary for anyone acquainted with the dead or the alleged killer. America has come to expect this kind of tragedy as an unavoidable consequence of -- or perhaps totally unrelated to -- our constitutional right to bear arms. Guns do not kill people, we have often be told; people kill people, but I know from personal experience that it is very hard to shoot someone without a gun. Without a gun, perhaps this woman would have karate chopped her colleagues to death or stabbed them repeatedly with a scalpel; who can say?All I know for sure is that one or more senseless tragedies involving a crazed perpetrator and a gun, will occur again in the US before the end of the year, and we shall again, offer grief counselling to those in need of it, Jay Letterman and David Leno will make guarded jokes about the incident, prosecutors will speak of the victims' loved ones for "closure" and the defense will produce an "expert witness" to explain that the accused was in a fugue state from the time just before he/she picked up the gun to just after the cuffs were applied, and citizens will apply for CWPs so that they can deliver frontier justice.

God bless America! We need it!

These things happen in places like schools because the shooter knows nobody there is armed. Schools are one situation where our consitutional right is taken away. You are not allowed to defend yourself at school. Time and again this kind of mentality gets people killed. Yeah, there are campus police but when seconds count the police are minutes away. This is a workplace violence situation, not your typical school shooting. Still tragic but you can't blame guns. Everyone wants to blame guns, but it is the ***** behind the gun that should be blamed.

 

[PhilinYuma]

These things happen in places like schools because the shooter knows nobody there is armed. Schools are one situation where our consitutional right is taken away. You are not allowed to defend yourself at school. Time and again this kind of mentality gets people killed. Yeah, there are campus police but when seconds count the police are minutes away. This is a workplace violence situation, not your typical school shooting. Still tragic but you can't blame guns. Everyone wants to blame guns, but it is the ***** behind the gun that should be blamed.

I don't know about others, Rick, but I would never "blame" a piece of metal for anything, and "blaming" the shooter doesn't seem to help the victims or the problem.

On the issue of allowing students to carry arms in college (or did you literally mean "school," as in HS?), though, you are seriously at odds with law enforcement officials.

As regards the law, in Texas, a school superintendent of a rural district has authorized specified teachers to carry concealed guns. In AZ you can carry one in any school premises, even when children are in class if you have permission of the principal.

Why anyone with a handgun who has never shot an unarmed person in his life would expect to best a perp often armed with multiple weapons including semi automatic rifles, and who enjoys killing, I cannot imagine.

The reason for law enforcement's alarm at the idea of people like you or me carrying in college so that we can let fly at "bad guys" is pretty straightforward.

First, if a shooting is in progress, and both good and bad guys are brandishing weapons, how do you keep score? Ask them?

Secondly, the one that really makes law enforcement officers cringe is that if they hear that there is a shooter loose in a college and then find half a dozen civilians holding guns, what do they do? The officer yells at the gun carrier to drop his gun and get on the floor. He will then have to deal with the guy (he certainly won't release him) while he should be dealing with the real shooter. Perhaps the guy with the gun yells, "It's OK officer, I'm on your side" (high adrenaline and a shooting situation breed bad decisions) and moves toward the sound of shooting. The officer issues a second warning and the excited boy (or is he the perp?) turns toward the officer with his gun still raised. Obviously, the officer is obliged to shoot him dead. More paperwork.

Thirdly, in another part of the campus, two armed "good guys" see each other, order each other to drop their guns (just like on TV) and and open fire. Two more bodies to account for.

But here's the saddest scenario of all. A good guy opens up on the bad guy and accidentally kills a fellow student (even trained police do this on occasion). He has added to the death toll, will certainly be indicted for negligent homicide and will face a wrongful death suit from the girl's parents.

On this one, I tend to agree with law enforcement.

 

[Rick]

I don't know about others, Rick, but I would never "blame" a piece of metal for anything, and "blaming" the shooter doesn't seem to help the victims or the problem. On the issue of allowing students to carry arms in college (or did you literally mean "school," as in HS?), though, you are seriously at odds with law enforcement officials.

As regards the law, in Texas, a school superintendent of a rural district has authorized specified teachers to carry concealed guns. In AZ you can carry one in any school premises, even when children are in class if you have permission of the principal.

Why anyone with a handgun who has never shot an unarmed person in his life would expect to best a perp often armed with multiple weapons including semi automatic rifles, and who enjoys killing, I cannot imagine.

The reason for law enforcement's alarm at the idea of people like you or me carrying in college so that we can let fly at "bad guys" is pretty straightforward.

First, if a shooting is in progress, and both good and bad guys are brandishing weapons, how do you keep score? Ask them?

Secondly, the one that really makes law enforcement officers cringe is that if they hear that there is a shooter loose in a college and then find half a dozen civilians holding guns, what do they do? The officer yells at the gun carrier to drop his gun and get on the floor. He will then have to deal with the guy (he certainly won't release him) while he should be dealing with the real shooter. Perhaps the guy with the gun yells, "It's OK officer, I'm on your side" (high adrenaline and a shooting situation breed bad decisions) and moves toward the sound of shooting. The officer issues a second warning and the excited boy (or is he the perp?) turns toward the officer with his gun still raised. Obviously, the officer is obliged to shoot him dead. More paperwork.

Thirdly, in another part of the campus, two armed "good guys" see each other, order each other to drop their guns (just like on TV) and and open fire. Two more bodies to account for.

But here's the saddest scenario of all. A good guy opens up on the bad guy and accidentally kills a fellow student (even trained police do this on occasion). He has added to the death toll, will certainly be indicted for negligent homicide and will face a wrongful death suit from the girl's parents.

On this one, I tend to agree with law enforcement.

At odds with LEO? Not at all. Nothing but respect. Was once my life goal to join them. Of course I do not think high school age students should be allowed to carry concealed weapons. Common sense must apply.

The problem with people that think lke you do Phil is that they assume that if concealed carry is allowed on college campuses that everyone will be carrying a concealed firearm. Not true! The number of people that have a permit to do so is pretty low. So I hardly doubt there are going to be half a dozen students holding a weapon.

It is quite obvious that the current laws are not working. Most states do not allow firearms on campus. HOw many school shootings have we had? Obviously the law isn't working. Phil, you should be smart enough to know that saying a place like a school is a gun free zone isn't going to stop anyone. When you outlaw guns, only criminals will have guns! Most people think that if guns are allowed on campus that everyone will be able to carry a concealed weapon. Not true. Only those that are licensed by the state to have a concealed carry permit would be allowed. In my state that would be those over 21, have attended the specified training, been fingerprinted, paid the fees, and had their background done by their local sheriff. You can go on and on about the "what ifs", but if a law abiding citizen carrying a legal firarm can prevent the death of just one person it is worth it.

Why am I, a law abiding citizen not allowed to protect myself at school? I am a 32 year old person going back to school. Everytime I head off to school I must disarm myself. Why? Why can I not protect myself while at school? Concealed means concealed. NObody would ever see my firearm. People thought that once they allowed concealed carry in my state that guns would be everywhere and the crime would skyrocket. Guess what. That isn't the case and crime actually went down! As I said before, criminals often choose schools because they know that nobody there is armed. It pisses me off that I can legally carry a concealed weapon about everywhere I go. But once I cross onto a college campus I will be jailed for wanting to protect myself. That is pathetic and that is the problem.

 

[PhilinYuma]

It is always a pleasure to debate with you Rick, mostly because we are able to do so while respecting each other.

I should point out, though, that I agree with you that on any campus, only a very small percentage of the student body would be carrying, though it would vary widely between, say The University of Wisconsin and Arizona State University. Even those who were, would be hard pressed to defend themselves against a trained rifleman in a tower.

It is an old maxim that enemy soldiers have more in common with each other than with their own civilians. Shorn of all the politically correct terms, the fact remains that you and I are among the tiny percentage of forum members who have deliberately killed someone with a gun. We weren't the heroes of the hour, we had no press interviews; we just found, to our faint surprise perhaps, that it was something that we could do. So yes, I would have no problem with your being armed on campus. I assume that when an "LOE" told you to put down your weapon, you would do so quickly without fuss and that you would also hand over yr ID quickly so that you could be traced later and not hold up the officer. BUT I would trust no untrained civilian ( and I don't consider CWP instruction as "training"!) any where near me with a gun in a live fire situation.

 

[neps]

First and foremost, Bryce, I'm sorry to hear of this situation and its impact on you. It is a sad fact that this sort of occurrence has become a fact of modern life in the US!

Secondly, (and I must state that I'm not trying to anger anyone by saying this) it seems to me that the idea that arming more American citizens will solve this problem is nuts, especially on college campuses where a majority of the population is very young, and quite often prone to very poor judgment. Not only would this make the job of law enforcement more dangerous and difficult, it would very likely result in the death of more innocent bystanders. Personally, I feel that the ready availability of firearms is the fundamental reason why events involving unstable people so often become bloodbaths. A gun offers a nut the opportunity to do enormous damage very quickly, and even if others are armed, the damage can be wrought so fast that it is highly unlikely that even armed guards could, in most cases, make much difference.

Finally, it is worth pointing out that, as of 2000, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, the percentage of homicides in the US involving firearms is quite high, at 65%. Of the 37 nations surveyed, that percentage is third highest, exceeded only by Guatemala and Columbia, at 75% and 85%, respectively. Frankly, I find it very disheartening to see America in such company, particularly when the overall homicide rate for the US is 17th among the same set of nations. It seems to me that the availability of guns does little but make it very easy for disputes of any sort to quickly become lethal.

 

[revmdn]

People will always find a way to kill each other, we're real good at doing that. I myself like the idea of being armed, for self defence. I've had a gun put in my face, it's not nice. I'm no cowboy, but I'd rather have one and not need one, than need one and not have it.

 

[idolomantis]

I agree with revmdn and Rick.

last year there were 500 violent House robberies in my town. The most got away with it.

I'd say It's better to have a gun in your house when something like that happens. I'd feel even safe if i could have it on me all the time.

Right now i do keep a a secret knife on me, Which i hope i never have to use.

But to agree with Phil, i wouldn't trust everyone with a gun even though they have good intentions.

What i can't understand is what drives people to do such things.

 

[neps]

Everyone is certainly entitled to his/her own beliefs. I can only add that opinions motivated by fear, while understandable, may be at odds with a more reasoned assessment.

Consider:

Guns kept in the home for self protection are 22 times more likely to kill a family member or friend than to kill in self defense.

More than 10 children, and teenagers 19 and under, are killed by guns EVERYDAY, and many more are wounded.

77% of murdered juveniles 13-19 are killed by firearms 39% of households have a gun, 24% are handguns Annually 1,409 children and teenagers have taken their own lives with guns

Facts For Families, July 2004

Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under the age of 15 occurred in the United States .

The Brady Campaign to prevent Gun Violence

Every 2 years more Americans die from firearm injuries than the total number of American soldiers killed during the 8 year Vietnam War.

CDC National Center for Health Statistics Report 1999

$2.8 Million per firearm fatality $249,000 per hospitalization for gunshot victim

$73,000 per emergency room visit for released gunshot victims

Phillip J. Cook, Gun Violence, The Real Cost, Oxford University Press 2000

 

[revmdn]

" With great power, comes great responcability".

 

[Rick]

It is always a pleasure to debate with you Rick, mostly because we are able to do so while respecting each other.I should point out, though, that I agree with you that on any campus, only a very small percentage of the student body would be carrying, though it would vary widely between, say The University of Wisconsin and Arizona State University. Even those who were, would be hard pressed to defend themselves against a trained rifleman in a tower.

It is an old maxim that enemy soldiers have more in common with each other than with their own civilians. Shorn of all the politically correct terms, the fact remains that you and I are among the tiny percentage of forum members who have deliberately killed someone with a gun. We weren't the heroes of the hour, we had no press interviews; we just found, to our faint surprise perhaps, that it was something that we could do. So yes, I would have no problem with your being armed on campus. I assume that when an "LOE" told you to put down your weapon, you would do so quickly without fuss and that you would also hand over yr ID quickly so that you could be traced later and not hold up the officer. BUT I would trust no untrained civilian ( and I don't consider CWP instruction as "training"!) any where near me with a gun in a live fire situation.

Yes, many college aged students are not yet mature. However, I think every single person has the right to self defense. Criminals have guns, why should law abiding citizens not be able to protect themselves with a gun? Don't bring a knife to a gun fight or you will just end up dead. If a college student is of legal age and meets all requirements to carry a concealed weapon then I am all for them doing so. In my experience most of those who recieve such permits are responsible.

 

[Rick]

First and foremost, Bryce, I'm sorry to hear of this situation and its impact on you. It is a sad fact that this sort of occurrence has become a fact of modern life in the US!Secondly, (and I must state that I'm not trying to anger anyone by saying this) it seems to me that the idea that arming more American citizens will solve this problem is nuts, especially on college campuses where a majority of the population is very young, and quite often prone to very poor judgment. Not only would this make the job of law enforcement more dangerous and difficult, it would very likely result in the death of more innocent bystanders. Personally, I feel that the ready availability of firearms is the fundamental reason why events involving unstable people so often become bloodbaths. A gun offers a nut the opportunity to do enormous damage very quickly, and even if others are armed, the damage can be wrought so fast that it is highly unlikely that even armed guards could, in most cases, make much difference.

Finally, it is worth pointing out that, as of 2000, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, the percentage of homicides in the US involving firearms is quite high, at 65%. Of the 37 nations surveyed, that percentage is third highest, exceeded only by Guatemala and Columbia, at 75% and 85%, respectively. Frankly, I find it very disheartening to see America in such company, particularly when the overall homicide rate for the US is 17th among the same set of nations. It seems to me that the availability of guns does little but make it very easy for disputes of any sort to quickly become lethal.

As I said before, the numbers of concealed carry holders are low. Some states have allowed those who meet the requirements to carry on campus. Guess what? Nothing happened! You cite guns stats which mean nothing. Do you realize most of those crimes committed with guns were done so by criminals, and ILLEGAL firearms. I have no idea why people bring up such information in this kind of debate. Criminals will carry guns regardless of what the laws are. I am talking about LAW ABIDING people being able to protect themselves. If concealed carry is allowed EVERYWHERE including on campus, it would apply only to those law abiding citizens with the proper permits. These are not the kind of people to pull out their gun during a dispute. That's what criminals do, and they are carrying regardless of the law. So that point is invalid.

 

[Rick]

Everyone is certainly entitled to his/her own beliefs. I can only add that opinions motivated by fear, while understandable, may be at odds with a more reasoned assessment.Consider:

Guns kept in the home for self protection are 22 times more likely to kill a family member or friend than to kill in self defense.

More than 10 children, and teenagers 19 and under, are killed by guns EVERYDAY, and many more are wounded.

77% of murdered juveniles 13-19 are killed by firearms 39% of households have a gun, 24% are handguns Annually 1,409 children and teenagers have taken their own lives with guns

Facts For Families, July 2004

Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under the age of 15 occurred in the United States .

The Brady Campaign to prevent Gun Violence

Every 2 years more Americans die from firearm injuries than the total number of American soldiers killed during the 8 year Vietnam War.

CDC National Center for Health Statistics Report 1999

$2.8 Million per firearm fatality $249,000 per hospitalization for gunshot victim

$73,000 per emergency room visit for released gunshot victims

Phillip J. Cook, Gun Violence, The Real Cost, Oxford University Press 2000

And guess what that is? Irresponsible guns owners. Guess what. Cars kill people too due to irresponsible drivers. Gonna ban them as well? Didn't think so. WHen people are killed iwth guns in the home as you describe it is due to a lack of responsibility on the gun owners part. Many people who bring up these stats are for the banning of guns and more gun laws which have been proven to not work at all. Like I said before, when you take guns from the hands of law abiding citizens, only criminals will have guns. I personally refuse to be a victim. I carry a pistol every single day. Nobody ever knows either. If the criminals that want to do me or my family harm are going to carry guns ILLEGALLY you better damn well believe I am going to match that force with my own LEGALLY carried firearm. Every non criminal American should have the right to self defense.