Sick Adult S. Limbata - help!

[cloud jaguar]

My first pet mantis to grow from found ooth to adult appeared sick when i returned from work today. It is very sad since this is a pink morph which I wanted to breed to one of our males.

Mother was very robust large S. Limbata female - ooth hatched and we raised 25 or so from hatchlings. Not many casualties through subadulthood. We misted these and fed them on a diet of crickets fed on oats, dog food, leafy greens and polen but not lately.

Since she is pink morph, she has exhibited similar frailties as other pinks we hav e and is not nearly as robust as her mother. Surprisingly we have almost no greens - the mother was green. Also we have about 70% males - about 1/2 of which are curly winged like Kamakiris.

While my wife and i very much wanted to breed the pink ones, they seem, as i mentioned, kind of weak. OUr pink female just became an adult about 2 weeks ago - we were rethinking breeding her given the apparent problems with the males from this ooth re their wing development - unpumped wings. Could this trait of wings be due to inbreeding and can it be passed on genetically? Since this was wildcaught i cant really know if it was inbred.

Here are some pictures of the sick mantis When i came home from work she was just laying listless on the bottom of ther cage - on her belly, with claws dug into the mesh of her 12" x12" net cage.

Is there anything I can do to help this mantis? - yesterday she ate 1 large cranefly and 1 cricket. Today I fed her a drop of honey which she ate laying on her back in my hand and also a drop of water.

A note on color - if you recall my "Pearl Crack Experiment" posts about this metallic textured origami paper in electric blue, yellow and pink that i put outside the plastic deli cups i kept the mantids in you will also recollect that there were varied opinions as to what efffect this would have on the mantids. I have changed and rechanged the enclosures of the mantids so many times that i can no longer tell what their original enclosure color was - so i know this failed experiment is not really probative of anything. HOWEVER, 90 percent of these mantids are very colorful with a majority pink or tan camo morph (c. 65%), black or charcoal (c10%), pink/green/red/purple leg combo c10%), green (20%). Given that i have only seen green ones in nature - either i truly suck at seeing non green mantids (entirely possible), or this ooth and color conditions produced color morphs other than green due to color stimuli or other factors. or some combination of the two.

Antways, i am sad my favorite mantis may be dying and i wonder what i can do to help her? Thanks.

~arkanis

 

[PhilinYuma]

Does she spend most of her time in a pot? Does it have a cloth lid? If in a pot, how often do you mist it and how many quirts of water per misting? What is your daytime ambient temp and humidity range?

I just got some new FACTUAL info on this (a first for me!). Yay!

 

[cloud jaguar]

12" NET CAGE If in a pot, how often do you mist it SHE IS ADULT - I MIST HER ABOUT 2X PER WEEK and how many quirts of water per misting? AUTO MISTER - A SECOND OR TWO IS ALL What is your daytime ambient temp 78 and humidity 40?I just got some new FACTUAL info on this (a first for me!). Yay!

 

[hibiscusmile]

There is nothing you can do Martin, but wait, sometimes they come back, but ususally they do not, I am sorry.

 

[Katnapper]

Does she spend most of her time in a pot? Does it have a cloth lid? If in a pot, how often do you mist it and how many quirts of water per misting? What is your daytime ambient temp and humidity range?I just got some new FACTUAL info on this (a first for me!). Yay!

I want to hear the factual info!

Sorry, Arkanis... hopefully she will come out of it.

 

[cloud jaguar]

she died

 

[PhilinYuma]

12" NET CAGE If in a pot, how often do you mist it SHE IS ADULT - I MIST HER ABOUT 2X PER WEEK and how many quirts of water per misting? AUTO MISTER - A SECOND OR TWO IS ALL What is your daytime ambient temp 78 and humidity 40?

It is really hard to see someone like you and Kamakiri spending so much careful time with your mantids and having such disappointing results, despite your problem solving skills.

One answer is, of course, "These things happen; that's the way it is," pretty much what was said about the Black Death when it was most prevalent. I think that I may be repeating myself in some of these comments, but that's OK:

I am strongly against the genetic theory. If genetic, it was inherited as opposed to a random mutation (I say that because the males in both your and Kamakiri's populations are highly unlikely to be afflicted by the same RM). The argument for it being passed on is equally problematic. In the wild, such a genetically crippled male would find it hard to find a female with whom to mate, and if he did, would stand a greater chance of being eaten than one who could fly away.

This is the first time that I have wondered about breaking diapause. Did you put your ooths in the fridge for a while, or outside or just place them on your digi box after they were laid? This was during the time when the forum was echoing with the long (and tedious) debate on breaking diapause, so I would guess that you did. If by some happy chance you did not, you would have a classic cause of weakened offspring.

You are feeding your mantids considerably more food than they would get in the wild. I very much doubt that that is an issue. But, OK, here's a possibility that can be easily verified experimentally. I have fed crickets to my limbata without any ill effect and have strong reason to believe that this happens in the wild, but I wonder if they don't need a steady supply of flies, bees, moths etc, as well. Was your crane fly (now in season here, too) a rare treat or standard fare? Did your nymphs show any difference in health when you were feeding them plenty of flies?

I have three ooths (two of yours!) that I recently placed in the fridge for a few weeks "just in case" and which are now in the "hatching area" (!) If/when they hatch, I'll feed both broods crix but also give a lot of flies and bees to one and none to the other. I don't find this a very plausible hypothesis, though.

The humidity is another muddy issue. S.limbata is indigenous to the Yuma area where the humidity is currently below 20% for about half the daylight hours, buI think that Yen has raised this and certainly the Arizona unicorn, another xerophilic mantis (hey! I just made that up!), though, so again, I think that is unlikely be a factor. I did try giving a one second spray (two zaps from a bottle) to a 1' net cage containing a very accurate, rapid-response humidity and temperature monitor (what Mija sneeringly calls my "new toy."). The temp almost immediately dropped four degrees F and the humidity climbed rapidly from <20% to 67% and back to "normal" in less than an hour, so your misting is unlikely to have any effect either way.

One more (and final) factor is the timing of the hatches. In your case, I think that yours were recently wild stock, though I don't know about Kamakiri's. but it may well be that they haven't adjusted to the way that we mess up their natural rhythms in culture. This is my favorite hypothesis at the moment (but, as Jane Fonda said, "Call me next week!").

If mine hatch in the near future, "on time" for this species. and if they do well, it will indicate that it is the season rather than culturing "know-how" that is the deciding factor.

Also, of course, and unlike many unbelievers I could mention, I shall be praying to the Great Mantis Goddess (Blessed be Her Name).

 

[kamakiri]

Arkanis, very sorry to hear. Perhaps also the pink morph is just weaker...

Phil, you're not paying attention. I got my 'first batch' limbata mantises from Arkanis, same ones he is raising. Still really thinking the krinkle wing is genetic. 50-50 count for the males from both our 'herds' is hard to ignore now. Only green males in this batch. Females to L7: 2 pink and 3 green.

I also have and had at any point over 75% males from this batch. Haplo-diploid? Perhaps someone with more biology and organic chem than I do can reply...

For the record, I don't mist the limbata and ambient humidity is normally 30-50% in the bug room.

 

[Rick]

When I kept those a couple years ago most of mine were pink so I don't think that color is anything special. Since this is an insect you're doing the only thing that can be done. It happens to all of us at some point for unknown reasons.

 

[Hypoponera]

I have kept S. limbata for several years. Both captive bred and wild caught.

First, while the ooth is able to tolerate very cold weather, a cold period IS NOT NEEDED!! They hatch just fine when kept at room temp. And those that over winter have proven to be no stronger then those I kept at room temp. In fact, this is a very "tough" and hardy species. I have had several color morphs and have to agree with Rick that no color morph was stronger or weaker then another. The pinks are cool looking, but not weaker in any way.

Humidity is questionable at best. As pointed out, the species is found in very dry locations. I used to keep wild caught ones in Tucson. But I have found that they respond very well to high humidity. I spray mine once a day, and very heavily. To help prolong the humidity in a container, you will need a substrate. Moss works quite well. It will hold huge amounts of water which will slowly evaporate this keeps the humidity higher for a longer period. Phil, maybe you should test how long this "slow release" idea works.

Is it possible that the crinkled wings are genetic? Yes. The only way to tell for certain is to breed them for several generations under controled conditions. If it keeps coming back even when humidity is kept high, then there is a good chance it is a genetic problem. If it does not reapper regularly, then the problem is probably environmental in origin. If genetic, it probably wouldn't be spotted in wild mantids as it would reduce the likelyhood of survival. Maybe it's recesive?

 

[PhilinYuma]

Phil, you're not paying attention. I got my 'first batch' limbata mantises from Arkanis, same ones he is raising. Still really thinking the krinkle wing is genetic. 50-50 count for the males from both our 'herds' is hard to ignore now. Only green males in this batch. Females to L7: 2 pink and 3 green.I also have and had at any point over 75% males from this batch. Haplo-diploid? Perhaps someone with more biology and organic chem than I do can reply...

For the record, I don't mist the limbata and ambient humidity is normally 30-50% in the bug room.

It's not that I don't pay attention, Kamakiri, honest, it's just that my memory is shot!

Obviously, if both your and Arkanasis's strains all come from one female or one ooth, (just one, right?) then a genetic abnormality becomes the most likely cause, especially since, regardless of color morph, you have a classical distribution of 50:50 abnormality in one ***.

Happily, Mija has a double major in biochem and biology, so I'll talk with her today, but I can already guess her answer. "Not enough data."

But again, it seems that with Arkanis having the same problem with a number of wild caught ooths (as seems to be the case), presumably from different locations, then such a hypothesis is hard to support. I really hope that my "Arkanis ooths " hatch now, particularly since they would be hatching at the beginning of the normal season.!

Another fact that tends to militate against a genetic defect is that this problem oocurs in other species, particularly sinensis, in my experience, though to a lesser degree.

Actually, the question is fairly easily resolved and doesn't require much genetic knowledge. I know an old guy who keeps these bugs and spends way too much time on the internet. Now, if I can just remember his name....

Hypopneura:

Yes I used a "standardized" substrate made from a folded 6x11" paper towel. Since everyone uses different substrates or none at all, and the humidity gradient inside and outside the pot varies from one area to the next, it is hard to generalize. I was testing the circulation in a pot with the two common kinds of lid that we use, metal mesh and cloth covered. The drop in humidity over time was considered a function of the degree of air circulation through the lids (no bung). My data suggests that circulation is better through the mesh grid by about 23%. Not very exciting, but I had to come up with some justification for the "new toy!" After three "squirts" from a mister kept at ambient temp., the temperature dropped by about 5F and the humidity from <20 to about 75% and returned to baseline in between seven and nine hours. YRMV. In fact, they certainly would, but the circulation rate through the two materials will remain a constant. I think, though, that I shall run the same test with a variety of substrates. Something to do....

 

[Hypoponera]

Hey Phil,

There's some useful info from your new toy! So paper towels will slowly release moisture for 7-9 hours? Wow! I didn't think it would last that long. Is that dependent on cloth or mesh cover? Is the drop to ambient levels linear? It would prove helpful if you could start with an exact volume of water rather then a couple squirts. If you want, I can send you some of the moss I use. It comes straight from Rebecca over at MantisPlace.

Also, I have raised S. limbata strictly on flies with no problem. Likewise I have tried useing heavy amounts of crickets from the local pet stores with no ill effects. So I doubt diet is much of an issue. Nothing wrong with variety though!

 

[PhilinYuma]

Hey Phil,

There's some useful info from your new toy! So paper towels will slowly release moisture for 7-9 hours? Wow! I didn't think it would last that long. Is that dependent on cloth or mesh cover? Is the drop to ambient levels linear? It would prove helpful if you could start with an exact volume of water rather then a couple squirts. If you want, I can send you some of the moss I use. It comes straight from Rebecca over at MantisPlace.

/quote]

Yeah. Cloth cover 9hrs, mesh, 7hrs. And yes, the drop was linear, recorded first at 15" intervals and 1/2 hrly for the last few hours (got lazy!)

I can meausre water easily in 0.1 cc increments with an insulin syringe and even make it "spray" with a 25G needle, but I was not sure how anyone could translate that into their own practice. Happy to do some measured ones for you, though, if you like.

I think that I may have some of Rebecca's moss, but I'll p.m. you anyway.

 

[kamakiri]

I have kept S. limbata for several years. Both captive bred and wild caught. Humidity is questionable at best. As pointed out, the species is found in very dry locations. I used to keep wild caught ones in Tucson. But I have found that they respond very well to high humidity. I spray mine once a day, and very heavily. To help prolong the humidity in a container, you will need a substrate. Moss works quite well. It will hold huge amounts of water which will slowly evaporate this keeps the humidity higher for a longer period. Phil, maybe you should test how long this "slow release" idea works.

Thank you for mentioning this! I believe this *may* be at the root of my limbata problems.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Thank you for mentioning this! I believe this *may* be at the root of my limbata problems.

Hypoponera: "Humidity is questionable at best. As pointed out, the species is found in very dry locations. I used to keep wild caught ones in Tucson. But I have found that they respond very well to high humidity. I spray mine once a day, and very heavily. To help prolong the humidity in a container, you will need a substrate. Moss works quite well. It will hold huge amounts of water which will slowly evaporate this keeps the humidity higher for a longer period. Phil, maybe you should test how long this "slow release" idea works."

Thank you for mentioning this! I believe this *may* be at the root of my limbata problems.

It's all your fault Hypoponera! I read your original post (040209) which I found very interesting, and then I read your last para and everything went black. I was fine when I came to, but had completely forgotten the contents of the post. At 1400, today, I put 1/2" (1.2cm) of the moss that I think you use in a standard pot with a cloth lid, and gave it six squirts from my trusty squirter. Normally I also soak a polystyrene sponge that I use as a bung for the feeding port, but I don't know yr practice, so I left it dry. In 15 mins, the humidity has risen from <20% to 80%, and I shall see how long it stays up. I think that S. limbata is such a successful "desert" species -- it appears to have only emigrated to CA in the past 50 yrs or so -- ibecause it tolerates such a wide range of humidity. Here is lives happily through the summer in a widehumidity range. Yesterday in Yuma the range was from 15% to 57%. Exactly a year earlier, it was 9% to 29%.

There is, however , another aspect of the seasonal humidity in southern AZ that extends from Tucson to Yuma, though it is more pronounced in the East. Yen once told me that the AZ unicorn mantis, which only occurs on yr side of the state, tolerates very little humidity until the monsoon season, when the first adults eclose and ooth laying begins. I wonder if S. limbata, too, does not require (or is not helped by) an increase in humidity and even the presence of water, to increase its internal pressure and help with pumping up the wings.

Just a thought, but a marked improvement over my salt spray idea!

Note: 31/2 hrs after spraying the pot with the moss substrate the humidity has only dropped 7% to 73%. I shall continue to monitir it.

Edit: And twelve hours later ity is still 65% !

 

[PhilinYuma]

Well, I'm amazed! Twenty four hours after putting six squirts of water into a 32oz(1L) pot with a cloth lid and about 1/2"(1.2cm) of loosely packed sphagnum moss, the humidity is still at 42%, about twice the room's ambient!

This just might be a reason for the practice, that has always puzzled me, of "misting" (one spritz, two, three?) a pot every other day, which simply provides a sharp, temporary rise in humidity and drop in temperature, that only lasts a few hours. Sphagnum moss has been used in scientific labs for the culture of arthropds for certainly a hundred years, Perhaps the misting tradition among mantid keepers is based on the remarkable water retaining powers of this plant and was carried on unchanged when less absorptive materials like plastic sponge and paper towels gained currency.

Thanx for the idea, Hypoponera! Any other suggestion?