Stagmomantis floridensis or carolina?

[grob]

I keyed the above out to Stagmomantis floridensis using this key:

http://www.entnemdept.ufl.edu/choate/mantid_key2_03.pdf

but I'm not terribly sure, hopefully someone knows these fairly well and can confirm the ID.

She is about 5.0 cm long (I'm used to just measuring dead insects though), and the relevant part of the key is:

=====================================================

11. Larger (58mm or more); form more elongate, abdomen of female nearly parallel-sided,
tegmina narrower, reaching only middle of abdomen; stigmatic patch pale, inconspicuous, or obsolete
..............................................................................................................................Stagmomantis floridensis Davis

- Smaller (57mm or less); form less elongate, abdomen of female strongly widened at middle,tegmina
broad, reaching apical third of abdomen; stigmatic patch black, conspicuous (cover photo)
........................................................................................................................Stagmomantis carolina (Johannson)
======================================================

Everything but the size seems to say floridensis. The tegmina certainly do not reach the apical third of the abdomen, and the abdomen seems pretty narrow, but then she just molted to adulthood a week ago, and eats a lot. There is no stigmatic patch that I can see. I caught her as a subadult on March 2nd in Davie, Broward County, FL. --rob

 

[aNisip]

That's a carolina for sure. Stagmomantis floridensis are a lot longer and more skinny. Plus a whole lot bigger. I will link a thread with me with S. floridensis

 

[aNisip]

http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27972&hl=%2Bstagmomantis+%2Bfloridensis

 

[grob]

Huh, so you don't think the shape of the abdomen, length of the tegmina and stigmatic spot are diagnostic at all?

Remember this one grew up during a pretty cool winter so I wouldn't put too much stock in using size as a guide.

 

[aNisip]

Its not a floridensis...the mantis that you have, fits on the tip of your finger...while true floridensis will never get that small ni matter how cold it is...the floridensis could never fit on the tip of a finger...despite different colors...the adult female carolina I have looks exactly the same as yours...

 

[grob]

I guess that is the stigmatic spot there. And looking at other photos on bugguide.net I don't see a big difference in the tegmina. So I guess it is carolina. Thanks, Andrew.

 

[grob]

..while true floridensis will never get that small ni matter how cold it is...the floridensis could never fit on the tip of a finger...

That's my thumb and I happen to have a giant thumb - and I'm very sensitive about it. I said it was 50mm, at least. It's hard to measure when it won't hold still. The cut off from the key is 57mm. I don't know how you can be so sure environmental effects of growing up in January and February wouldn't have that big an effect on size. In my experience identifying beetles size is a poor diagnostic characteristic.

Anyway, I think you're right now, Stagmonatis carolina, thanks again. That spot is interesting. Funny how it's on one side.

 

[aNisip]

When the Carolina's get large and floridensis get smaller it is difficult to tell...I found it more useful when you have an actual floridensis and you can easily see what the main differences are that the key is speaking of....

 

[Ntsees]

...That spot is interesting. Funny how it's on one side.

Each forewing has the spot and they fold over each other. In your picture, if that outer right forewing was underneath it's left forewing, the spot would be located towards the left.

 

[grob]

Each forewing has the spot and they fold over each other. In your picture, if that outer right forewing was underneath it's left forewing, the spot would be located towards the left.

I see.

In looking at pictures on the internet I see in some the right wing is on top and some the left wing is on top. The one on the cover of the key is left wing on top, and so is this one.

http://bugguide.net/node/view/748669/bgimage

But mine is a righty.

That's surprising. You'd think they'd all be the same, or I would. I guess mantids can be leftys or rightys.

 

[lancaster1313]

Sometimes they will switch wings that are held on the outside.

I too, have had some skinny S. carolina mantids that look like yours. The prothorax and abdomen still look wider and shorter than that of S. floridensis photos that I have seen. The S. floridensis look like a really stretched S.carolina.

 

[Ntsees]

Like what likebugs said, they can switch forewings. The switch usually happens when the mantid flaps it's wings (whether during flight or on a branch) and when it stops, the forewing that is last to fold back (a quick millisecond) will be on top. You can make yours a lefty by lifting both forewings and making sure the right forewing is folded under the left wing (or vice versa). Both wings will still fold evenly.

 

[grob]

Huh, neat! Thanks guys!

 

[Rick]

If you see the two side by side there is no confusing them. Is anyone keeping S. floridensis?

 

[aNisip]

I got ooths incubating...