T. sinensis Day 2: A reason for the infamous die off?

[Malakyoma]

Hey guys. Just providing an update on my T. sinensis that hatched two nights ago.

I transfered 36 into new comfy homes, with 3 being in each cup. The remainder stayed in the 90oz container overnight. I'm guessing I was really off guessing 60+ nymphs because there were still plenty in the container when I finished transferring the 36.

Now for the infamous die off. There are about 10-15 dead nymphs, ALL of which are in the container. NOT the cups I transfered the nymphs into. Each and every nymph in the cups is fine. This leads me to believe that the infamous die off of T. sinensis is caused by how we keep them in such huge groups. Too many nymphs in one small area likely stresses them out to the point of death.

I know a lot of you breeders dont really care. 200 nymphs from one hatch is too many nymphs for almost anyone to take care of and I understand letting some die off to weed out the weak while lowering it down to a manageable number. At the same time, however, the L1 die off appears to be preventable. It appears to have a reason for happening, which is a step forward in understanding how it works and to prevent it. So for you breeders that actually care about your animals, separate your nymphs into smaller groups right away. This morning has shown me that will help the survival rate considerably.

NOTE: I am NOT saying none of the nymphs in the cup will die. It is very possible that there are inherently weaker nymphs that wont make it to L2 for seemingly no reason. HOWEVER I dont believe losing 80% of a T. sinensis hatch, as seems to be the norm, is caused by weak nymphs. It seems to be caused by overcrowding and stress levels.

 

[Bug Trader]

Could it just be the temps, humidity and such in your new cups are more fitting for the species? Could also be a stress issue, dehydration, or just simple natural death of the weaker ones in the cup. If they were meant to all live I doubt they would hatch that many out. I tend to let the hatches wean out the weaker ones for a week or so before moving any.

 

[Malakyoma]

Could it just be the temps, humidity and such in your new cups are more fitting for the species? Could also be a stress issue, dehydration, or just simple natural death of the weaker ones in the cup. If they were meant to all live I doubt they would hatch that many out. I tend to let the hatches wean out the weaker ones for a week or so before moving any.

I made sure the ones in the container had sufficient water. They're kept right next to each other too so I don't see how temp and humidity could be very different if at all. Stress is the reason I think they died, too many in a tight space. I would think they were just the weaker ones if any had died that I separated into smaller groups. Instead all of the ones I separated into groups of 3 are fine while the only ones that died were still with the big group

 

[Mime454]

I think I heard from Tammy that it might be a lack of oxygen that does it. I too notice that with every species I've hatched so far, more survive when they're separated than when they're kept together.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

NOTE: I am NOT saying none of the nymphs in the cup will die. It is very possible that there are inherently weaker nymphs that wont make it to L2 for seemingly no reason. HOWEVER I dont believe losing 80% of a T. sinensis hatch, as seems to be the norm, is caused by weak nymphs. It seems to be caused by overcrowding and stress levels.

Are people really claiming that loosing 80% of the nymphs is normal to begin with? I do think the majority of deaths in this species could be completely avoided. This species can be highly cannibalistic and they are super active. They don't mix that well in groups or in tight spaces. I get that people aren't going to bother separating 100+ nymphs nor have the space to offer them each sizable container, but I don't think it is fair to claim the poor survival rate is unavoidable and the mantids' fault. This species isn't so prolific because they are genetically inferior.

 

[Ntsees]

...Too many nymphs in one small area likely stresses them out to the point of death....

I thinking this might be the case since it has happens in my hatches. My educated guess would be constant over-expenditure of energy (climbing on top of one another plus trying to shove that leg out of the way). In the natural environment, there are no wall barriers to keep them from spreading out after they hatch. They're supposed to hatch out and find a nice quiet spot to rest and catch their first prey.

 

[twolfe]

Is your 90 ounce enclosure made of plastic? Do you have any cross ventilation?

I've never hatched a T sinensis ooth. In 1.5 years of breeding, I've only had a couple of big die offs. I wish I knew why it happened. In one case I had left about 25 nymphs in the incubator with several ooths, and most of them died. But the ones I moved to a different enclosure (same type) were fine. The second time I had separated a bunch of unicorns into three 80 ounce enclosures, and they all were dying. I brought them outside into the fresh air and put them in the shade and almost ever one of them recovered. In the past some have questioned too much or too little humidity while in the ooth, but in your case, it doesn't explain why the ones you moved out survived. I had also wondered about the paper towels as I had bought a different brand, and the ones that died both had that paper towel in the enclosure.

I raise a lot of nymphs communually in nets, and they seem to do fine as long as the ones needing more humidity get misted more often.

I had two Rhombodera ooths that hatched and produced a total of 700 nymphs in a week. It was too many to deal with at one time. I used three oversized net enclosures that I use for butterflies. I cut off some type of shrub with lots of branches that I put in the enclosures. I liked to ensure that they have lots of places to hang from. I had 200+ in each net and had very few unexplained deaths. I did lose some to cannibalism and mismolts during the first two molts.

 

[Malakyoma]

Is your 90 ounce enclosure made of plastic? Do you have any cross ventilation?

Yes the 90 oz containers are similar to tupperware containers. One long side and the lid are entirely screen for lots of ventilation. There are a number of deaths inside the 90 oz still, and the ones I've moved out are fine.

They have paper towels from the same roll in each enclosure, I dont think a brand switch would be the cause. I think the ones that look most comfortable are the Ten I have in a 32oz deli. I ended up transferring groups of 3 into 12oz party cups in the style BT showed, theres 15 of those, 7 16oz Deli's holding 5 nymphs each, and 1 32oz with 10 nymphs so far. There's more in the 90oz I'd like to get transfered out too. I'll probably scrounge my last 32s up and use those.

 

[Malakyoma]

Oh no theres escapees. was just laying in bed and one hopped on my arm. wonder if theres more and if they'll make it

 

[Mirk]

Been raising t. sinensis off and on since i was in the 2nd grade and last year hatched 20 ooths indoors with plans to release most of them outdoors. It was alot of work and sadly most died after I released them on the 2nd week of May, and we had a crazy cold front brought three days for freezing rain and snow with highs rarely even touching 30.

Well in my experiences with the little turds. I dont mess with them at all after they hatch because I figure they have a very limited energy supply to keep them alive until they can feed, which is usually over 24 hours after hatching. The majority that would "die off" are the ones that run around exhausting themselves evading capture or eachother, imo.

I have had the best luck using 30 gallon fish tanks with a bajillion sticks and a little excelsior. Once they hatch i wait a day and throw a hopefully well established ff culture into the fish tank with the lid cracked just enough for the flies to escape. I periodically poor more ffs into the areas the culture doesnt support. Then I separate the nymphs into smaller containers as they molt to the 2nd instar. I have had at worst 5-10% death rates in the 1st instar, and they mostly resulted from cannibalism.

I used to believe the humidity and temp or whatnot could have been the prob for some people, but then I kinda realized the vast climate ranges that they thrive in and kinda began to doubt that as a cause. And I do know they often wait a long time to begin hunting. So If they are in too small of a container they are constantly working to keep away from their siblings that they run themselves into exhaustion, and same goes for the nymphs that overwork themselves evading capture of their caretakers.

Anyway i have couple pics of one of the tanks from last spring.

 

[Mirk]

Oh and also if you see in the pics I used scotch tape to hold up the ooths... I dont know what I was thinking when I did that. That probably accounted for as many deaths as cannibalism.

 

[Malakyoma]

Thanks for the first hand account I'll keep it in mind when I'm raising more of them. Maybe I'll transfer my other ooth over to my 15gal terrarium once I'm done setting it up. This will be my first foray into live plants and such, hopefully it works out well.

 

[Reptiliatus]

Mike, I completely agree with you that separating the nymphs individually or in small groups can certainly result in higher survival rates, however I'm not sure how credible the statement you are making is some 2 days after they hatched as indicated by your thread title. Give it some time seeing as you may have some/many deaths in the next few days/weeks. Then let us know how they are doing . That being said, I hope I'm wrong .

-Dayyan

 

[Malakyoma]

Mike, I completely agree with you that separating the nymphs individually or in small groups can certainly result in higher survival rates, however I'm not sure how credible the statement you are making is some 2 days after they hatched as indicated by your thread title. Give it some time seeing as you may have some/many deaths in the next few days/weeks. Then let us know how they are doing .

-Dayyan

I'm not suggesting I've found the cause of everything that ever goes wrong with them lol. Which is why I included a question mark. Just wanted to point out that my experience is suggesting large group in a small area is what causes the deaths. Their probably is much more than that but its a start, and even though Sinensis is an incredibly common species that has been raised countless times we still know so little about how to care for them.

 

[Malakyoma]

Total nymphs saved and separated: 113. I noticed one death in the cups though. Looks like cannibalism. Guess they didnt like the melanos I put in. 113 isnt a bad number though.

 

[MantidBro]

Hey guys. Just providing an update on my T. sinensis that hatched two nights ago.

I transfered 36 into new comfy homes, with 3 being in each cup. The remainder stayed in the 90oz container overnight. I'm guessing I was really off guessing 60+ nymphs because there were still plenty in the container when I finished transferring the 36.

Now for the infamous die off. There are about 10-15 dead nymphs, ALL of which are in the container. NOT the cups I transfered the nymphs into. Each and every nymph in the cups is fine. This leads me to believe that the infamous die off of T. sinensis is caused by how we keep them in such huge groups. Too many nymphs in one small area likely stresses them out to the point of death.

I know a lot of you breeders dont really care. 200 nymphs from one hatch is too many nymphs for almost anyone to take care of and I understand letting some die off to weed out the weak while lowering it down to a manageable number. At the same time, however, the L1 die off appears to be preventable. It appears to have a reason for happening, which is a step forward in understanding how it works and to prevent it. So for you breeders that actually care about your animals, separate your nymphs into smaller groups right away. This morning has shown me that will help the survival rate considerably.

NOTE: I am NOT saying none of the nymphs in the cup will die. It is very possible that there are inherently weaker nymphs that wont make it to L2 for seemingly no reason. HOWEVER I dont believe losing 80% of a T. sinensis hatch, as seems to be the norm, is caused by weak nymphs. It seems to be caused by overcrowding and stress levels.

Very interesting how the ones in the container lived but the ones in the cups died. The same thing happened with my Tenodera sinensis. I transferred the 2 I planned to keep into containers and they were the only survivors. Although the nymphs I put in the cups were all separated.

I wonder if it has to do with lack of oxygen, even though I poked holes in it, maybe it's just not enough. Could be humidity, as misting cups provides a lot of it, and there's not as much ventilation as in a container which usually has proper air holes.

Or, maybe the lack of space is what does it. Mantids are used to being born into the wild, completely free, I can imagine living in a small cup would be stressful, especially if you're not able to take them out every day.

 

[Malakyoma]

Very interesting how the ones in the container lived but the ones in the cups died. The same thing happened with my Tenodera sinensis. I transferred the 2 I planned to keep into containers and they were the only survivors. Although the nymphs I put in the cups were all separated.

I wonder if it has to do with lack of oxygen, even though I poked holes in it, maybe it's just not enough. Could be humidity, as misting cups provides a lot of it, and there's not as much ventilation as in a container which usually has proper air holes.

Or, maybe the lack of space is what does it. Mantids are used to being born into the wild, completely free, I can imagine living in a small cup would be stressful, especially if you're not able to take them out every day.

I'm sorry I think I may have been unclear. The ooth hatched in a 90 oz tupperware container, I began separating the nymphs into plastic cups soon after. That first night there were about 20 deaths in the container the ooth hatched in, but the nymphs in the cups survived. the same happened the next night, I transfered out more nymphs to cups and there were more deaths in the container the ooth hatched in and the nymphs I separated were safe.

 

[ScienceGirl]

Congratulations on your big hatch!

I have a native ootheca at the moment, too. Your documentation will definately help!

Keep us updated?

 

[ScienceGirl]

I once had a native, wild female. She was nice and fat, but hadn't been bred. I was little, so I didn't know about all that stuff.

I didn't know to mist her, but kept her in a mesh cage. She was fed flies during the summer when I caught them in the mornings, and crickets during the the fall. She'd ride on my shoulder as we went off on our adventures. Sometimes I'd pertend she was a parrot. :lol:

She lived late into fall/ early winter.