To beat A dead horse agian

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[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]Well Its been done b4 but. Is it illegal to keep none native mantis, and if so how does anyone get by selling their nymphs online or @ reptile expos, also shipping across state lines?. I've looked for this online and googled it and, nothing has come up clear from what I've read through. Note I was looking it up for Colorado.

I know somone said Clinton left it up to AG to rule over this, but still nothing came up I don't know why, but I'm thinking of talking to Legal Zoom for answers <_< .

But if anyone out here has A Lawyer in their family, or a friend maybe you could ask them, because I know my family & friends ask my wife and me medical questions all the time, so it's a thought.

Anyone want to clear this all up for good ?

Danny

 

[PhilinYuma]

Why are we (or rather you) beating this horse again? Rick got it right, long ago, when he said that you keep exotic mantids at your own risk. You can talk to all the family lawyers you like, and get all the transportation permits you like, but if a federal officer from whatever agency shows up at your door and asks you if you have any exotic mantids (he will already probably have a warrant), he can do anything with them he likes. What's that? These are native to the US? Very well sir, but we will have to impound them pending identification by our entomologist. And off they go. On the other hand, if you are putting on a clean shirt every morning and making a fresh pot of tea in order to welcome the federal agent, you are likely to be disappointed. Until the governor's wife gets sneezed on by a mantis, or a terrorist is caught with one in his pocket, said feds are likely to have better things to do. And so do I. Like going to bed.

 

[Rick]

Nobody really knows. I think you are ok as long as you are not importing from outside the country. You will not find any info on this either. When I do the Bugfest event at the museum I am not allowed to bring any non native mantids. The museum staff doesn't mind but they told me they are afraid due to the USDA people that will be there. There is an article on USDA website about mantids I will see if I can dig up.

 

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[SIZE=14pt]This weekend we went to a zoo near us and it started again, "what you ask" my wife asking why cant we sell some of our mantids to the zoo as one of the keeper we had been talking to had asked about geting some for the zoo, also friends have asked me to sell some or if they could buy some with me.[/SIZE]

We have also had venders @ the Rocky mt rep expo befor selling mantids so there it is.

danny

 

[PhilinYuma]

[SIZE=14pt]This weekend we went to a zoo near us and it started again, "what you ask" my wife asking why cant we sell some of our mantids to the zoo as one of the keeper we had been talking to had asked about geting some for the zoo, also friends have asked me to sell some or if they could buy some with me.[/SIZE]We have also had venders @ the Rocky mt rep expo befor selling mantids so there it is.

danny

ArkBlue: There appear to be very few lawyers on this forum. Those who are not are not qualified to give legal advice and those who are, probably won't. In this case there appears to be a difference between the letter of the law and how that law is enforced for amatuer (and small time professional) mantis keepers. You might want to ask forum members if they have ever been involved with federal authorities for keeping exotic mantids. The response should give you an idea of how to proceed.

 

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ArkBlue: There appear to be very few lawyers on this forum. Those who are not are not qualified to give legal advice and those who are, probably won't. In this case there appears to be a difference between the letter of the law and how that law is enforced for amatuer (and small time professional) mantis keepers. You might want to ask forum members if they have ever been involved with federal authorities for keeping exotic mantids. The response should give you an idea of how to proceed.

[SIZE=14pt]Well I did just that Phil, no one has said any thing.[/SIZE]

 

[Hypoponera]

[SIZE=14pt]Well I did just that Phil, no one has said any thing.[/SIZE]

Hard getting any info on this subject isn't it? Even forum members try to "hide" the issue. Guess we will be OK if we all just stick our heads in the sand!

Like you, I had the same questions. I got tired of not getting any help also. So I contacted a federal USDA inspector here in New Mexico. I told him about the hobby and the questions I had. He said he would check the laws and regs and call me back. A week later he called and gave me plenty of info. It is found in a thread down the list. Here is a quick run down. Remember this is based on Federal and New Mexico laws and regs. Your state may have different laws to consider.

Import of ANY arthropod into the US is NOT allowed! No, the mantis isn't the problem. The problem comes from other critters hitching a ride. We don't want to import any new plant pathogenes or other plant damaging organisms.

You may keep and ship non-native mantids as long as they are captive bred in the US. So I can send you captive bred, exotic mantids and not get into trouble. BUT, your state may not allow you to recieve them. So you would get into trouble, not me. Some states have very harsh laws against non-native arthropods, like CA and NY.

In the end, YOU need to know the laws regarding your state. Contact the USDA inspector in your area and talk to them. Be nice and courtious and they may prove helpful. The down side is that they might come and "visit" your operation in person. But the chances of that are fairly slim. They are just as busy and lazy as the rest of us!

 

[Rick]

Hard getting any info on this subject isn't it? Even forum members try to "hide" the issue. Guess we will be OK if we all just stick our heads in the sand!Like you, I had the same questions. I got tired of not getting any help also. So I contacted a federal USDA inspector here in New Mexico. I told him about the hobby and the questions I had. He said he would check the laws and regs and call me back. A week later he called and gave me plenty of info. It is found in a thread down the list. Here is a quick run down. Remember this is based on Federal and New Mexico laws and regs. Your state may have different laws to consider.

Import of ANY arthropod into the US is NOT allowed! No, the mantis isn't the problem. The problem comes from other critters hitching a ride. We don't want to import any new plant pathogenes or other plant damaging organisms.

You may keep and ship non-native mantids as long as they are captive bred in the US. So I can send you captive bred, exotic mantids and not get into trouble. BUT, your state may not allow you to recieve them. So you would get into trouble, not me. Some states have very harsh laws against non-native arthropods, like CA and NY.

In the end, YOU need to know the laws regarding your state. Contact the USDA inspector in your area and talk to them. Be nice and courtious and they may prove helpful. The down side is that they might come and "visit" your operation in person. But the chances of that are fairly slim. They are just as busy and lazy as the rest of us!

That is good solid info but read his last part carefully. Look up your state laws. I personally would never call and ask myself. As I said earlier, I ask to bring exotics every year for my booth at bugfest and the museum always says no because of the USDA inspectors walking around during the event. If they are worried there must be something to it.

 

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[SIZE=14pt]This is all good to know and thank you for the info. :blink: [/SIZE]

 

[Hypoponera]

Hey Rick,

There may well be something to it. What state are you in? Got to know your state's laws and regs. Maybe yours is one that is pretty strict. Then again, all the confusion may simply result in "NO" just to avoid the possibility of a problem. Goes back to that head in the sand bit. Better to avoid the problem then find out the info for certain. Surely someone at the museum there could figure out the answer. Our zoo has several exotics on display and they are labled as being a "USDA inspected facility".

I think the main issue is one of effort. Nobody wants to put in the effort to get a straight answer. Dealing with any government agency is confusing and difficult. Ask 10 people the same question and you will get 11 different answers. You just got to keep trying. Alas, as pointed out before, nobody at the USDA seems to really know the truth themselves.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Hypoponeura, hi!

It's a good test of a post when you can respect what it says and disagree with it at the same time!

I am one of those who most definitely do not want to to go to lengths to "get a straight answer." I receive shipments of mantids from both here and there, and they all come by mail that is subject to federal, not state, regulation. The feds do not have a problem, even though there are USPS permits governing live critters, and the state authorities don't even try to monitor interstate shipments.

I was impressed by the fact that it took a USDA officer a week to find out his own federal regulations! Obviously, he had not thought it necessary, hereto, to check on them either! My state is regulated, so far as I know, by the Arizona Game and FIsh Department, whose primary interest, as you may guess, is huntin' and fishin'. I could find no link to tell me where to find out about what mantids I can, or cannot keep. It is an old maxim that "ignorance of the law is no defense," but since the state does not promulgate its laws/regulations on this subject, and since I have heard of no cases of confiscation of mantids, let alone more severe penalties, by state authorities and have no reason to believe that I am not in compliance, I have no reason to make extensive enquiries to discover my status.

I would also point out that it is not the duty of a federal or state wildlife officer to decide whether or not an individual should be prosecuted. He may however, "gather evidence," which would, in this case, mean confiscating your mantids pending a decision. Even if you have done nothing wrong, and you are alowed to claim your property after a few weeks at your expense -- it will not be returned to you! -- the chances of finding your mantids alive and well are small indeed.

No. I shall continue to keep my mantids, and if the state or federal government decides to visit me, that is their perogative, but I shall lose no sleep over the possibility that I may not be conversant with a regulation that not even field officers are aware of!

 

[Hypoponera]

Hey Phil,

Have you tried contacting the an extension officer? There was a good one that worked at the Uof AZ in the early '90s. Another one to ask would be Carl Olsen in the Entomology dept at the U of AZ. Carl is still there.

I don't recall AZ being too bad regulations wise. But laws do change. And there is nothing wrong with not trying to hunt down the info if it is of no intrest to you. ArkBlue was hunting for answers and not getting any. Thought I would point a possible way for him to get some help.

I don't doubt the feds can come over and take what ever they want. And to think they don't really need much of a reason these days. Besides, my gun collection would probably be of more interest then my mantids!

 

[PhilinYuma]

I tell you what, Mike,

If you have any doubts at all about yr gun collection, you are more than welcome to cross the state line into Gun Friendly Arizona! A few places, including a mall here in Yuma, ask you not to bring automatic weapons onto their premises unless you think that you really have to, otherwise, you and yr guns are welcome anywhere on the state level. I also have a number of family members and friends who work for different federal agencies in this state, and I can no doubt put out a friendly word!

See ya soon!

 

[Rick]

Hey Rick,There may well be something to it. What state are you in? Got to know your state's laws and regs. Maybe yours is one that is pretty strict. Then again, all the confusion may simply result in "NO" just to avoid the possibility of a problem. Goes back to that head in the sand bit. Better to avoid the problem then find out the info for certain. Surely someone at the museum there could figure out the answer. Our zoo has several exotics on display and they are labled as being a "USDA inspected facility".

I think the main issue is one of effort. Nobody wants to put in the effort to get a straight answer. Dealing with any government agency is confusing and difficult. Ask 10 people the same question and you will get 11 different answers. You just got to keep trying. Alas, as pointed out before, nobody at the USDA seems to really know the truth themselves.

One of the people there used to be with the USDA. I have not spoken with him but I do know that part of the decision not to allow exotics went through him. Something they don't want to deal with obviously.

 

[Hypoponera]

I do appreciate Arizona's views on guns! In fact, that's where over half of my collection is sitting! By the way, did you ever get those PMs and emails I sent awhile ago? I never heard back from you.

 

[PhilinYuma]

I do appreciate Arizona's views on guns! In fact, that's where over half of my collection is sitting! By the way, did you ever get those PMs and emails I sent awhile ago? I never heard back from you.

Ouch! I think that we had a similar conversation nearly two months ago! You don't suppose the Feds......?

I'll fix that first thing tomorrow!

 

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I shall continue to keep my mantids, and if the state or federal government decides to visit me, that is their perogative, but I shall lose no sleep over the possibility that I may not be conversant with a regulation that not even field officers are aware of!

Alas, as pointed out before, nobody at the USDA seems to really know the truth themselves

They are just as busy and lazy as the rest of us!

So i think you did a good job of beating that one in to large pile of small unreconizable hores bits.

Can it just be dead yet?

 

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[SIZE=14pt]I don't know why every one is so scard of the law, for if this is wrong I would want to know wouldn't you :blink: . I am not growing a crop of pot in my back yard :angry: "just vegies" that is wrong or makeing meth in my carport "I dont have a carport " so if I am doing somthing knowing that its wrong " h34r: in the eyes of the Law" then lets make a change for the better it could happen. So dont be mad @ me or your selfs for beating A dead horse , and dont be scard if we can talk about things if can become free in keeping these little buggers . So smile today and just think .[/SIZE]

 

[Kaddock]

[SIZE=14pt]I don't know why every one is so scard of the law, for if this is wrong I would want to know wouldn't you :blink: . I am not growing a crop of pot in my back yard :angry: "just vegies" that is wrong or makeing meth in my carport "I dont have a carport " so if I am doing somthing knowing that its wrong " in the eyes of the Law" then lets make a change for the better it could happen. So dont be mad @ me or your selfs for beating A dead horse , and dont be scard if we can talk about things if can become free in keeping these little buggers . So smile today and just think .[/SIZE]

What I am really wondering is, on the contrary, who would even care if it was illegal? I have a hard time believing that many of us would toss the hobby (seriously <_< ).

Anything I purchase is my responsibility, and for all I know, I am breaking laws in several states just because my package is routed through them. If you are worried about laws, then don't keep pets you can't find at your local pet store. Personally, my addiction to inverts is far more powerful than any law, state or federal.

Call me a junkie if you must!

BTW: Blue has been proven to be one of the most difficult colors for the human eye to read text in.