To entomologists and anyone else interested: Tested puke! Interesting results

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[email protected]

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Long story short: I had a bad batch of crickets that resulted in 3 deaths and 1 is still puking (she still eats flies and honey).

I am a student and I had 2 hardy chrome candida agars and 1 MacConkey agar in my fridge. That is not necessarily what I wanted to test, but that it what I had on hand.

MacConkey agar tests for gram negative bacteria. I was able to drop puke from a leaf without touching it. I won't go into much detail because this test was negative. I know there is bacteria everywhere and I am surprised that there was nothing. It smells horrible though, so maybe the agar is too old and the test was bad.

Hardy Chrome Candida tests for 3 kinds of candida. In agar #1, I accidentally dropped the puke with a piece of the leaf it was on, into the agar (petri dish). So for agar #2, I dropped a different piece of leaf (same species) from same enclosure without puke. Agar #2 is my control.

RESULTS:

Agar #1 tested positive for candida tropicalis AND THERE WHERE WHITE MITES running around the top of the petri dish. Ok. I'm not positive of what they were. They looked like moving white specks. When I looked with my ophthalmoscope, I saw little 6-8 legged white creatures that I tried to ID on that bug ID website. Mites eat partially decomposed matter from fungi, from what I understand.

AGAR #2 tested NEGATIVE for any candida!

I understand that my home is not a sterile environment, but I think that this is worth doing further research.

From what I understand, my mantid is infected with at least candida tropicalis, and the mites hopefully got there after she puked.

Does anyone know what microbes are normally in a mantids gut?

Has anyone heard of anything like these mites before?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 
so candida tropicalis is a fungus? Is that what the mites were eating? Do you have moss in your terrarium by any chance? anything from the outdoors that wasnt boiled or baked?

Ive never seen white mites before, but have seen brown ones, which came from outdoor moss... Had to clean out the entire cage and replace everything. I know springtails are tiny and white, i mistook them for mites once

Mantid guts are always smelly even if having died of old age, i think its their bile, like acidic

 
Yes, it is a fungus, and I believe that is what the mites were eating. My moss is from the reptile store, but yes I have some sticks that were from the outdoors. I guess I figured that in Arizona there is not much mold or fungus. You're right though, there can still be mold and especially with all the storms we had. I'm actually cleaning everything now.

Uggh!!!

 
[email protected] said:
Yes, it is a fungus, and I believe that is what the mites were eating. My moss is from the reptile store, but yes I have some sticks that were from the outdoors. I guess I figured that in Arizona there is not much mold or fungus. You're right though, there can still be mold and especially with all the storms we had. I'm actually cleaning everything now.

Uggh!!!
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If you boil or bake anything from outside next time itll reduce the chances of their being mites

It really sucks to have to redo everything

I had to redo a huge tank it took like three hours

 
Thanks. Sorry it took you so long. Yeah, it's actually taking me long too because I'm so afraid that everything I do is wrong. I love my babies sooo much! I cleaned my tanks with vinegar and let them heat in the sun, then I washed with water twice because I'm afraid of anything and even the vinegar! I'll definitely bake the sticks next time! Thank you!

 
[email protected] said:
Thanks. Sorry it took you so long. Yeah, it's actually taking me long too because I'm so afraid that everything I do is wrong. I love my babies sooo much! I cleaned my tanks with vinegar and let them heat in the sun, then I washed with water twice because I'm afraid of anything and even the vinegar! I'll definitely bake the sticks next time! Thank you!
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Im the same exact way, if i wash with soap i rinse again and again and again cause im afraid of any remaining bits of soap, even if it looks to be gone i will still rinse again to be sure, and even then im still worried! its cause our mantids are our babies lol

Youre welcome, thanks for sharing the results of the testing with us, its a help to us all

 
It would be interesting to also test some of the crickets.

Personally I don't tend to worry about mites. Most species are harmless and only become problematic if they reach extreme numbers and stress out the other animals in the cage or outsource them for the food such as when mites take over fruit fly cultures. In more natural set ups, having a clean up crew like springtails, isopods, lesser mealworms, and such can help prevent and naturally keep mite numbers low.

 
Thank you. I had no idea about the mites. I freaked at first.

That's a good idea about testing the crickets. I'm not sure the best way though. I'll have to ask my professor.

 
I had a mite infestation twice...they were harmless...nothing died from... just a pain to get rid of..

I first got them in fruit fly culture... and then in meal worms... so they can be anywhere and everywhere.. also check nozzles of your water bottles.. the congregate there and breed...

Mite paper helps

 
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Oh wow! Thank you. I haven't found the mites anywhere else. I'm thankful for that.

Another thing I just realized is that the mantid that I tested, just ate fruit flies which are in a medium containing yeast. I wonder if that yeast is why her puke tested positive for candida.

I don't know anything. All I can do it try to be a careful and clean as possible.

 
That is what I love about the forum.. sometimes just tossing stuff back and forth... opens up another door... like they say... it takes a village. (or forum)

 
I'm not sure what microbes mantids naturally have in their midgut, which could contribute to what you found. Usually microbes that insects contain in their gut will help either break stuff down to provide them with essential amino acids.

And I also don't know the pH of mantids (as a rule usually insect guts are more alkaline than vertebrate, but who really studies mantis physiology -_-).

 
Well maybe they should be studied?

 
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II wish I had time to study. Another interesting finding though:

I put the puke of a dying mantid in a petri dish for all kinds of bacteria. I put in outside in my storage and forgot about it. last night I looked and there was all sorts of bacteria. The interesting thing is that it survived in cold temps of 40 degrees F.

 
This is really nice to see you did that. I use bleach and have never had a problem with it, use bleach. It is used to purify water for drinking so a little left somewhere won't kill them, but it will kill all the germs.

 
On another note, I used to see mites in cultures I got from other people, all were white except the ones from josh frogs, they were big and yellowish, which were

probably white at one time.

 
Do you have access to other kinds of agar? I really have been wanting to test this, but just hadn't had any sick mantids lately to try with. MacCokney's agar only allows gram (-) to grow, like you said, but also the agar could have been expired...definitely worth trying again....but I feel like a fungal infection wouldn't cause mantids to be sick so quick after ingestion of an "infected" prey item. I feel like the cause of the notorious mantis "black death" (frequent puking of foul dark liquid until imminent death, or chronic diarrhea) is of bacterial cause. I would like to see the following (in no particular order) kinds of agar tested:

Blood Agar

LB (Luria Bertani) Agar

Miller's LB Agar

Nutrient Agar

Tryptic Soy Agar

XLD Agar (Xylose lysine deoxycholate)

Granted some of them would be more difficult to obtain due to their selectivity in terms of allowing which (potentially) harmful pathogens to grow and thrive, such as the Blood, Tryptic Soy and XLD agar...

Also, you could probably just take some frass from a healthy mantis, add it to some sterile water and make a thin paste and then inoculate some Nutrient Agar to find out what kind of naturally occurring microbes thrive in the mantis gut (it would likely differ depending on diet, species, environment and wild caught vs captive bred) as mantids have no way of passing the same gut microbes to their offspring, unlike termites who depend on the trophallaxis from older termite to younger instar to transfer the necessary protozoan spp.)

However, I have wondered about trying to administer an antibiotic to the mantis with black death. (Dissolve the antibiotic in water and add some honey to make it "appealing", then feed via dropper or syringe) I have no idea if it would work, but so far honey only seems to work some of the times.

 
Right now, I only have access to the tryptic soy agar. That is the one I used last and found all kinds of bacteria. I just haven't had time to figure out how to ID the bacteria.

Right now, I have a previously very healthy mantid that has the black death symptoms which occurred immediately after ingesting a (dying/ dehydrated?) meal worm (may have been wax, I forgot what I gave her). She is still strong, but she will not eat. I know I will loose her. Besides honey, I am trying the colloidal silver. I guess there would be no harm in trying an antibiotic. I just don't want her to suffer if the antibiotic is too strong.

Anyway, I'll test her. I find it so strange that a worm that was mostly in the fridge could kill her.

I'm really upset. I was wondering too if maybe the worm had some kind of enzymes activated to digest it as it was dying. Could those enzymes be passed to the mantid? My mantid had just laid an ooth and she was maybe dehydrated.

I don't know. I'll test her with the tryptic soy agar and post the results.

 

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