ismart
Well-known member
:lol: :lol: :lol: Now were really going to have the animal rights activisits after us! :lol:
Video: Mantis Eats Sushi!
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Rob Byatt
Well-known member
The intelligence of the 'staff' here never ceases to amaze me. Are you all really that ignorant?
I want a yes or no answer to this question from each and every one of you;
Do you think that the condonation of feeding live vertebrates to mantids is responsible?
I want a yes or no answer to this question from each and every one of you;
Do you think that the condonation of feeding live vertebrates to mantids is responsible?
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In our country the animal rights activists are already trying to make it a felony offense punishable by up to five years in prison per animal to keep nearly any exotic fish, bird, invert, reptile, etc. I'm surprised you haven't noticed the banners on many user accounts and the long discussions. Outrage over someone feeding a feeder to a predator will not cause them to stop their pursuit.
PhilinYuma
Well-known member
Well, bless your repetitive hearts! I can understand, if not endorse, the frisson that "eating up the food chain" causes many people. Frankly, I find the eating of a fish, cockroach or any other critter, by a mantis rather boring. My pleasure comes from watching the strike, but I have no problem with those who do enjoy it, with or without a bulging Richard. Of course, the answer for those of you who abhor this or any other kind of display, be it pornography or a speech by Sarah Palin, is to simply not watch it, but no, you are not content with this, you must bend the rest of us to your will, by vague threats of "governmental action" (not yet, but soon, just mark my words!), misrepresentation of fact, (vertebrates always kill their prey before feeding, piranhas simply swallow a horse whole; it doesn't feel a thing) by spurious analogy (it is unnatural, as opposed to feeding a mantis honey on a stick or a beheaded cricket on a pair of forceps). The vague, Chicken Little, threats of some future disaster consequent on the action being debated, has little rhetorical value unless it has some evidence, however specious, to back it up. Lolicon hentai is freely available on the internet, yet no "bored politician" either in the U.S. or Europe (unless you count Ireland!) has made any move to ban it, despite the anti-child pornography statutes in both regions, and I would rank it rather higher than fish-eating mantids.
In the hands of our European members who are the most vociferous opponents of this practice, this also becomes a subset of the "Americans will destroy the mantis hobby" manifesto.We have been solemnly advised that, contrary to all available evidence on the subject, the use of common names for mantids will destroy the hobby. Here, we are given the judgment, equally untrammeled by supporting evidence, that while this pernicious practice (and remember, it too my "destroy the hobby" very soon) may be condoned in the U.S., "in Europe this kind of behaviour is viewed very differently." I lack the skill and language ability to assess Europe's attitude toward mantids eating fish, though I'm sure that there is a scholarly article on it somewhere, but since it is mid evening in the U.K. I sent out a few Emails asking what friends and relatives think. I only have one answer so far, from 17 yr old Sarah (a great niece, I think): "Krewl. Kreepy. Kool!!," but I should wait for at least one more answer before making a judgment on the European consensus.
All of these, though, are mere quibbles and an amusing reflection on the rhetorical skills of those who use them. What is much, much more reprehensible, though, is to say, "this is a nasty topic that gets people excited, so let's remove the thread and make it go away." Germans in the '30's (and I am old enough to have talked with some) who disapproved of Hitler's traeatment of the Jews, kept quiet about it and were complicit in the deaths of 6,000,000 people. Now a days, (I am writing this in English, to honour our English members. I hope that you blokes and blokesses enjoyed the Houseman reference) the American Press refuses to show any pix of dead American soldiers in the combat zone. This magically brings them back to life and puts an end to the conflict. Debate never hurts. Censorship, whether imposed or voluntary, can.
On the bright side, this topic does elicit a response from some of my friends and countrymen who are not usually very prominent on our forum. Gurd, whose posts almost never exceed one line, managed four on this subject. Rob, of course, never lets us down when it comes to discussing fish, and lynneowen, what can I say? My only fear, Rob, is that the "ignorance" and "intelligence" or lack thereof, of the owner and administrators of this forum may cause you and other "serious hobbyists" to leave the forum and thus deprive of us of the interesting and helpful insights into mantis keeping that you post with such regularity. I noticed that all three of you replied within an hour and a half of each other. In the U.S., flying saucer aficionados notify each other of new UFO sightings so that they can don their metal foil hats. Do you have a similar network?
Thanks, Peter! Good photography and a great song!! Rick and Orin, I wouldn't have your job for all the tea in China!
In the hands of our European members who are the most vociferous opponents of this practice, this also becomes a subset of the "Americans will destroy the mantis hobby" manifesto.We have been solemnly advised that, contrary to all available evidence on the subject, the use of common names for mantids will destroy the hobby. Here, we are given the judgment, equally untrammeled by supporting evidence, that while this pernicious practice (and remember, it too my "destroy the hobby" very soon) may be condoned in the U.S., "in Europe this kind of behaviour is viewed very differently." I lack the skill and language ability to assess Europe's attitude toward mantids eating fish, though I'm sure that there is a scholarly article on it somewhere, but since it is mid evening in the U.K. I sent out a few Emails asking what friends and relatives think. I only have one answer so far, from 17 yr old Sarah (a great niece, I think): "Krewl. Kreepy. Kool!!," but I should wait for at least one more answer before making a judgment on the European consensus.
All of these, though, are mere quibbles and an amusing reflection on the rhetorical skills of those who use them. What is much, much more reprehensible, though, is to say, "this is a nasty topic that gets people excited, so let's remove the thread and make it go away." Germans in the '30's (and I am old enough to have talked with some) who disapproved of Hitler's traeatment of the Jews, kept quiet about it and were complicit in the deaths of 6,000,000 people. Now a days, (I am writing this in English, to honour our English members. I hope that you blokes and blokesses enjoyed the Houseman reference) the American Press refuses to show any pix of dead American soldiers in the combat zone. This magically brings them back to life and puts an end to the conflict. Debate never hurts. Censorship, whether imposed or voluntary, can.
On the bright side, this topic does elicit a response from some of my friends and countrymen who are not usually very prominent on our forum. Gurd, whose posts almost never exceed one line, managed four on this subject. Rob, of course, never lets us down when it comes to discussing fish, and lynneowen, what can I say? My only fear, Rob, is that the "ignorance" and "intelligence" or lack thereof, of the owner and administrators of this forum may cause you and other "serious hobbyists" to leave the forum and thus deprive of us of the interesting and helpful insights into mantis keeping that you post with such regularity. I noticed that all three of you replied within an hour and a half of each other. In the U.S., flying saucer aficionados notify each other of new UFO sightings so that they can don their metal foil hats. Do you have a similar network?
Thanks, Peter! Good photography and a great song!! Rick and Orin, I wouldn't have your job for all the tea in China!
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You have to jump straigh into calling names? Most forums would ban you for flaming moderators in open discussion.
Rob Byatt
Well-known member
So giving them ammunition helps? In my first reply I referred to the problems already happeneing over there.
Actually no, but it makes a refreshing change from the name calling being directed at me, which, coincidentally is acceptable
As for speaking to other people about this subject, yes, of course I have and so what?
As for banning, believe me, there is no need
Orin, would you answer my question please?
Ian
Well-known member
Pipe down Rob, stop coming over here and flaming everyone as ususal. If you're so offended/bothered, then please go elsewhere.
Rob Byatt
Well-known member
Rob Byatt
Well-known member
Again, another of my posts has been deleted.
Will one of you please answer my question? I'm now on moderator post watch apparently, so I'd at least like one answer.....
I'll keep posting until one of you replies.
Will one of you please answer my question? I'm now on moderator post watch apparently, so I'd at least like one answer.....
I'll keep posting until one of you replies.
Ian
Well-known member
I didn't remove your post. And yes, you were flaming.
In response to your question, do I think it's responsible? Personally, I don't see why there is such a big deal about it, I guess it comes down to personal preference. Can I see why people are offended? To some degree, yes. I would say that posting the video was neither responsible or irresponsible.
I people find something offensive, move on. Don't get abusive and personal.
In response to your question, do I think it's responsible? Personally, I don't see why there is such a big deal about it, I guess it comes down to personal preference. Can I see why people are offended? To some degree, yes. I would say that posting the video was neither responsible or irresponsible.
I people find something offensive, move on. Don't get abusive and personal.
Peter Clausen
Well-known member
Anybody who keeps an organism in captivity is doing the very same thing. Feeding captive-raised houseflies, mass-produced crickets, housing mantises in tiny cages? These are all shades of the same gray. No captive habitat replaces nature. If you are a scientist studying mantises that's one thing, but every single person who keeps mantises as pets and has a problem with this video is a hypocrite. I'm personally aware of the moral implications of the video. Anybody that is upset about the video should seriously consider whether they should even be keeping mantises as pets because they are doing the very same thing. Of course, I'm not judging you. My personal belief is that human awareness of bugs is the only step towards their salvation. So, somebody call CNN and tell them what I did!
Yes, it was a feeder fish that was destined to live a meaningless existence since the reptile we bought it for would not eat it. By my moral judgment, I gave the existence of this fish meaning as I fed it to a mantis normally confined to an unnatural diet of house flies, house crickets and breeder roaches. Not incidentally, these feeder insects are fed on unnatural diets including ground up cow, pig and chicken parts in the dried dog food they consume. In turn, this ends up in the mantis stomach. But like I said, it doesn’t matter if your pet mantis doesn’t eat dogfood-fed crickets. If you are keeping it in a cage you are still a hypocrite by your own definition. I realize I'm a hypocrite. I’m a bug-loving hypocrite. If I lived in a hunter and gatherer society, I'd be surrounded by bugs and not feel as compelled to keep them. However, I live in a cold, wet place with no bugs (not so much by choice). I live in a house/yard that displaces native habitat, drive a car that pollutes in so many ways. What about you? We have a reality to deal with here. Mantises aren't even on the radar! Ancient cultures deified them. What do we deify? Celebrities, cars, etc. You want to ask who is a friend to the mantis? I'll tell you...
Orin writes books about them.
Rick's years of dedicated moderating on this forum.
Ian has created many insect resources.
Rob has been raising them for fifteen years.
Christian provides our community with "the facts".
Ismart supports the hobby through his breeding efforts and participation here.
PhilinYuma's objectivity.
Just because somebody doesn't agree with my posting of a video, doesn't diminish my overall respect for them as a generally like-minded person.
Mantises eat all their feeders alive. Many insects eat fish in the wild (though most of them are aquatic insects). To say a mantis never eats up the foodchain is ridiculous. To display it in a video may be sensational, I admit, however all the arguments posted here against doing it are just as sensational!
If you expose a group of people (the Youtube audience) to something they have never seen before (mantises), each of them will take something different away from the experience (but probably a reflection of themselves). Interesting how controversy does the same in a group of people. I'm not above changing my mind about whether something is right or wrong. And I'm not angry or surprised by the response.
As for threats to leave the forum and flaming the moderators (I am the owner) who take so much time to keep it generally friendly around here…same thing…just more reflections of feelings and threats that we’ve seen before. If you will leave, leave. If stay, stay. I don’t mind an opinion, but don't blame the moderators for attempting damage control. Just because you feel your response is justified by your beliefs or emotions doesn't mean it won't incur warn points!
One last thing...stick to the issue in this thread. All further attacks directed towards Orin, Rick or Ian will result in warn points. I'm leaving the prior discussion up because I'm against censorship, however the moderators do have a responsibility to keep it friendly and they do a good job of it. This thread was temporarily closed earlier for review.
Yes, it was a feeder fish that was destined to live a meaningless existence since the reptile we bought it for would not eat it. By my moral judgment, I gave the existence of this fish meaning as I fed it to a mantis normally confined to an unnatural diet of house flies, house crickets and breeder roaches. Not incidentally, these feeder insects are fed on unnatural diets including ground up cow, pig and chicken parts in the dried dog food they consume. In turn, this ends up in the mantis stomach. But like I said, it doesn’t matter if your pet mantis doesn’t eat dogfood-fed crickets. If you are keeping it in a cage you are still a hypocrite by your own definition. I realize I'm a hypocrite. I’m a bug-loving hypocrite. If I lived in a hunter and gatherer society, I'd be surrounded by bugs and not feel as compelled to keep them. However, I live in a cold, wet place with no bugs (not so much by choice). I live in a house/yard that displaces native habitat, drive a car that pollutes in so many ways. What about you? We have a reality to deal with here. Mantises aren't even on the radar! Ancient cultures deified them. What do we deify? Celebrities, cars, etc. You want to ask who is a friend to the mantis? I'll tell you...
Orin writes books about them.
Rick's years of dedicated moderating on this forum.
Ian has created many insect resources.
Rob has been raising them for fifteen years.
Christian provides our community with "the facts".
Ismart supports the hobby through his breeding efforts and participation here.
PhilinYuma's objectivity.
Just because somebody doesn't agree with my posting of a video, doesn't diminish my overall respect for them as a generally like-minded person.
Mantises eat all their feeders alive. Many insects eat fish in the wild (though most of them are aquatic insects). To say a mantis never eats up the foodchain is ridiculous. To display it in a video may be sensational, I admit, however all the arguments posted here against doing it are just as sensational!
If you expose a group of people (the Youtube audience) to something they have never seen before (mantises), each of them will take something different away from the experience (but probably a reflection of themselves). Interesting how controversy does the same in a group of people. I'm not above changing my mind about whether something is right or wrong. And I'm not angry or surprised by the response.
As for threats to leave the forum and flaming the moderators (I am the owner) who take so much time to keep it generally friendly around here…same thing…just more reflections of feelings and threats that we’ve seen before. If you will leave, leave. If stay, stay. I don’t mind an opinion, but don't blame the moderators for attempting damage control. Just because you feel your response is justified by your beliefs or emotions doesn't mean it won't incur warn points!
One last thing...stick to the issue in this thread. All further attacks directed towards Orin, Rick or Ian will result in warn points. I'm leaving the prior discussion up because I'm against censorship, however the moderators do have a responsibility to keep it friendly and they do a good job of it. This thread was temporarily closed earlier for review.
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+1 to Peter.
It's an animal eating an animal. Terribly rare and disgusting subject matter, right?
Also to iSmart: The animal rights activists don't care about people or fish, so they're no problem for the video or the pic =P
It's an animal eating an animal. Terribly rare and disgusting subject matter, right?
Also to iSmart: The animal rights activists don't care about people or fish, so they're no problem for the video or the pic =P
The point is still missed, but I will not insist any more. Go on like this. Obviously it seems to be a cultural issue, since most Europeans are against those practices, while most Americans don't see a problem. As with any cultural difference, it is almost impossible to find a consense.
Of course piranhas aren't swallowing horses, simply because piranhas as mainly fish eaters. I made a generalization to emphasize a point, instead of searching for the 2 per cent exceptions you should have tried to understand why we have a problem with it.
I leave this discussion with a certain taste of disgust down my throat and have the hope that one will actually read what we have written and not what the reader likes to extract from it.
I don't like the way some people are treated here either. I will have to rethink some stuff and make a decision.
Of course piranhas aren't swallowing horses, simply because piranhas as mainly fish eaters. I made a generalization to emphasize a point, instead of searching for the 2 per cent exceptions you should have tried to understand why we have a problem with it.
I leave this discussion with a certain taste of disgust down my throat and have the hope that one will actually read what we have written and not what the reader likes to extract from it.
I don't like the way some people are treated here either. I will have to rethink some stuff and make a decision.
ismart
Well-known member
Being a new yorker, i surpose i'm just a little paranoid. Pretty much all the exotics here are already banned. I cant even buy a tarantula here anymore.
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ABbuggin
Well-known member
I couldn't agree more. Personally, I don't see a problem with it, it is just a feeder minnow that was bred to be fed later on in life. Its no different that us using roaches, crickets, flies, moths, etc to feed our mantids. Besides, several other animals are bred as feeders for snakes including rabbits and mice. I just don't see what the hype is all about.
I know others have their opinions though.
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+1. If it was a kitten or something then yeah I could see it being an issue.I couldn't agree more. Personally, I don't see a problem with it, it is just a feeder minnow that was bred to be fed later on in life. Its no different that us using roaches, crickets, flies, moths, etc to feed out mantids. Besides, several other animals are bred as feeders for snakes including rabbits and mice. I just don't see what the hype is all about.
I'm still heartbroken over that poor chap who was fed to a mantis
Rob Byatt
Well-known member
I said what I thought, big deal. If moderators can't take aa bit of critisism without locking threads or deleting posts then I give up. Not once have I removed bad words directed to me or arguments I disagree with on the forums I moderate.
Personal attacks? So tell me, why was it okay in the past for me to be called an ######, anal and a few other less than nice names? Don't get me wrong, I have been called far worse things by far worse people, but it is the hypocrisy that annoys me.
We have tried Christian, many times. One day we can say I told you so
There was a time when my complaints were listened to and the posts removed; something changed along the way.When are you all going to listen to what we are saying??? We are simple being cautious to protect the future of the hobby, where is the problem with that?
I'll go back to 'raising' mantids now :lol:
Rob.
Name calling is not acceptable. You've never reported an incident to me. You have to send a PM if you have a problem. I can't follow you around watching for every time you're rude to someone and they call you a name.
Ian
Well-known member
Rob, a bit of criticism is fine. Personal attacks are not. And why is it you think that every time you make a complaint, action should be taken? Fair enough if there's something you disagree with, obviously you're entitled to your opinion. But because you don't like what you see, doesn't mean it's gone for everyone. We often get people reporting material that they don't like, but unless it's clearly something unacceptable, it will stay visible.
Let's face it, if material was removed that one person didn't agree with, it would be a fairly empty forum.
Let's face it, if material was removed that one person didn't agree with, it would be a fairly empty forum.
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