DeadInTheBasement
Well-known member
meh...it was either that or the mouse to grow up and be murdered by a fellow mouse and nibbled on next to the foodbowl :lol:
Video: Mantis Eats Sushi!
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idolomantis
Well-known member
Peter, May i kindly ask you the reason of this thread?
As you might noticed every time a thread was started about an invertebrate eating a vertebrate, it ended up in a conflict.
I think you knew this would happen.
No offence intended.
I share the same opinion on this topic as my felow europeans(most of them, that is).
As you might noticed every time a thread was started about an invertebrate eating a vertebrate, it ended up in a conflict.
I think you knew this would happen.
No offence intended.
I share the same opinion on this topic as my felow europeans(most of them, that is).
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ZoeRipper
Well-known member
PhilinYuma
Well-known member
While Peter is consulting with his advisors on how to best answer your question, Idolo, I have a couple for you. Did you watch the video, whose content was clearly announced? If so, why would you go to the trouble to link to and turn on a video whose contents offend you? If you didn't watch, what are you complaining about?
idolomantis
Well-known member
Phil, i Didn't bother watching the actual video, i;ve seen other videos of mantids eating fish. so i know what it looks like.
I am not complaining about the video itself, but the fact that it is posted on a site where it obviously gets flamed.
in the time i've been here i saw 4-5 of these threads all ended up like this. why would, someone who knows this is going to be a conflict, post that video.
If the video belonged to a new member who just joined i can understand that he or she wouldn't know that, i wouldn't of have bothered to even post a reply.
PhilinYuma
Well-known member
That seems to me like a most reasonable expression of a reasonable position, Idolo. In several posts, Peter has explained his reasons for posting at some length, but there is another factor, suggested by the number of this post, that hasn't been mentioned, and that is traffic.
This is not only by far the most successful mantis forum in the world, dedicated to a hobby that most Europeans and Americans have never heard of, but it is arguably the most successful invert forum.
The reasons for this are twofold (and read this quickly before Peter deletes all evidence of my having existed on this forum; he has a Special Button).
First, in addition to mantis talk, we can relate our latest gaming and anime preferences (I remember that you are a proponent of Bleach!
), comment on presidential elections, and discuss our pathetic attempts to build a computer. People originally attracted to the forum by the mantis content, feel encouraged to come back to share other views and opinions. This increases forum traffic as well as the idea of community.
Second, the rules about controversy here are very different from those on fact based forums in general. I belong to a U.S. technicians' forum where we are not even allowed to address each other in a "superior" manner! One young lad from Europe is a moderator on a European phasmid forum, and he politely but kindly reminds members of the rules, and always stays faithfully on topic. He is the same chap who comes on this forum and rants about his school in language which must exhaust our word censor! I'm sure (hope!) that he feels better after such ventilation, though, and he does no harm. It might seem that such a "lax" policy makes life easier for the mods, but in fact, it makes it very much harder, because they are always calculating how far to let an individual thread go.
Aside from that, though, it seems great to me that folks can debate "sensitive" issues in a reasonable way without ignoring the topic or making obscene, anonymous posts. A few years ago, you may remember one of your countrywomen killed her beloved cat, Pinkeltje and turned her into a rather attractive handbag, using the tail as a handle. Folks who had no problem with bags made from the skins of baby cows, showered her with often obscene abuse. I remembered this when I recently saw how she has gotten her revenge.
This is not only by far the most successful mantis forum in the world, dedicated to a hobby that most Europeans and Americans have never heard of, but it is arguably the most successful invert forum.
The reasons for this are twofold (and read this quickly before Peter deletes all evidence of my having existed on this forum; he has a Special Button).
First, in addition to mantis talk, we can relate our latest gaming and anime preferences (I remember that you are a proponent of Bleach!
), comment on presidential elections, and discuss our pathetic attempts to build a computer. People originally attracted to the forum by the mantis content, feel encouraged to come back to share other views and opinions. This increases forum traffic as well as the idea of community.Second, the rules about controversy here are very different from those on fact based forums in general. I belong to a U.S. technicians' forum where we are not even allowed to address each other in a "superior" manner! One young lad from Europe is a moderator on a European phasmid forum, and he politely but kindly reminds members of the rules, and always stays faithfully on topic. He is the same chap who comes on this forum and rants about his school in language which must exhaust our word censor! I'm sure (hope!) that he feels better after such ventilation, though, and he does no harm. It might seem that such a "lax" policy makes life easier for the mods, but in fact, it makes it very much harder, because they are always calculating how far to let an individual thread go.
Aside from that, though, it seems great to me that folks can debate "sensitive" issues in a reasonable way without ignoring the topic or making obscene, anonymous posts. A few years ago, you may remember one of your countrywomen killed her beloved cat, Pinkeltje and turned her into a rather attractive handbag, using the tail as a handle. Folks who had no problem with bags made from the skins of baby cows, showered her with often obscene abuse. I remembered this when I recently saw how she has gotten her revenge.
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Peter Clausen
Well-known member
Good question, Idolomantis!
I can't speak for the moderators on this subject (if only because we've never discussed it), though I believe Rick said something about how he usually deletes such things before they cause a rift, but that doesn't mean I would, or that I agree with the practice of doing so. Maybe the reason I've never seen such posts on this forum before is...because they get deleted so quickly
Of course, Phil has made a dedicated effort to educate people who have opinions about how feeding a fish to a mantis is not the same as feeding some other "vertebrates". Watch the video. Read the thread. You might ally your opinions more with the millions of Europeans that didn't post, than the couple that did!
I explained in my previous post why I made the video. I posted it because its cool, man!
I can't speak for the moderators on this subject (if only because we've never discussed it), though I believe Rick said something about how he usually deletes such things before they cause a rift, but that doesn't mean I would, or that I agree with the practice of doing so. Maybe the reason I've never seen such posts on this forum before is...because they get deleted so quickly
Of course, Phil has made a dedicated effort to educate people who have opinions about how feeding a fish to a mantis is not the same as feeding some other "vertebrates". Watch the video. Read the thread. You might ally your opinions more with the millions of Europeans that didn't post, than the couple that did!
I explained in my previous post why I made the video. I posted it because its cool, man!
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mantisfart2
Well-known member
can i ask a question? and can it be answered by peter not phil? I am assuming and correct me if i am wrong you hand fed the fish to your mantis? If the only intention was to not waste the feeder fish, and give your mantis a little more protein would it not have been kinder to feed the fish dead or at the very least considering how a mantis eats head first not tail first?
DeadInTheBasement
Well-known member
when these fish die an enzyme known as thiaminase becomes VERY high(even if frozen) and it is VERY unhealthy...this is the reason they only sell LIVE feeder fish and not frozen feeder fish like they do rodents....
revmdn
Well-known member
Phil, you gotta tell me how she got her revenge.
PhilinYuma
Well-known member
Hey, Dead, I put on a clean shirt to answer mantisfart's question and then found that he wouldn't let me. :lol: , but yr post is worth at least a clean shirt.
Yes, under the right conditions, thiaminase can cause severe illness or death in many vertebrates due to thiamine deficiency. The strange cultural custom in much of Asia of regarding brown (natural) rice as inferior to polished (white) rice led to serious issues of thiamine deficiency (berri berri), but in the phenomenon that you are describing, existing thiamine is destroyed by thiaminase -- I suppose that it knocks out the methylene bridge between the two ring molecules.
Some fish, it seems, like carp, contain thiaminase while others, like salmon, don't, but they all use thiamine in the mitochondial production of ATP. What happens with frozen fish that contain this enzyme is that it will destroy the thiamine, produced in life, in the the frozen tissue, seriously reducing its nutritional value as a source of vitamin B1. Piscavores that eat live fish rich in thiaminase, though, will also develop problems if they don't enjoy a varied diet.
Some insects, apparently, such as a Nigerian silkworm whose pupae are a protein source for local residents, also manufacture the enzyme, and again, an unvaried diet of the pupae can cause thiamine deficiency unless the pupae are first cooked (yum).
There is much more about this phenomenon that I don't know than that I do. I suspect that Vit B1 (TPP) might even be toxic to insects in large enough doses. Perhaps Superfreak can help us when she is done celebrating the end of her exams, but it seems that it would be a good idea, until we learn more, to feed our mantids live rather than dead fish, but only once a week, or so, as a treat.
Revdm:The cat episode happened a few years ago, but earlier this year, I found that she tracked down the folks who had sent her threatening/abusive Emails, learned all she could about them, such as their wish lists on Amazon, organizations that they support, etc and published them together with their original Email. Some have been upset enough to threaten her with violation of their privacy and she has replied that if they do, she will report them to the police, since hate mail is a crime in Holland. Yay cat lady!
Yes, under the right conditions, thiaminase can cause severe illness or death in many vertebrates due to thiamine deficiency. The strange cultural custom in much of Asia of regarding brown (natural) rice as inferior to polished (white) rice led to serious issues of thiamine deficiency (berri berri), but in the phenomenon that you are describing, existing thiamine is destroyed by thiaminase -- I suppose that it knocks out the methylene bridge between the two ring molecules.
Some fish, it seems, like carp, contain thiaminase while others, like salmon, don't, but they all use thiamine in the mitochondial production of ATP. What happens with frozen fish that contain this enzyme is that it will destroy the thiamine, produced in life, in the the frozen tissue, seriously reducing its nutritional value as a source of vitamin B1. Piscavores that eat live fish rich in thiaminase, though, will also develop problems if they don't enjoy a varied diet.
Some insects, apparently, such as a Nigerian silkworm whose pupae are a protein source for local residents, also manufacture the enzyme, and again, an unvaried diet of the pupae can cause thiamine deficiency unless the pupae are first cooked (yum).
There is much more about this phenomenon that I don't know than that I do. I suspect that Vit B1 (TPP) might even be toxic to insects in large enough doses. Perhaps Superfreak can help us when she is done celebrating the end of her exams, but it seems that it would be a good idea, until we learn more, to feed our mantids live rather than dead fish, but only once a week, or so, as a treat.
Revdm:The cat episode happened a few years ago, but earlier this year, I found that she tracked down the folks who had sent her threatening/abusive Emails, learned all she could about them, such as their wish lists on Amazon, organizations that they support, etc and published them together with their original Email. Some have been upset enough to threaten her with violation of their privacy and she has replied that if they do, she will report them to the police, since hate mail is a crime in Holland. Yay cat lady!
DeadInTheBasement
Well-known member
there is no point in letting any useful part of a dead animal waste....cat/dog purses sound like a great way for some animal shelters to make some cash to feed/care for the animals that are lucky enough to get over there illness...i recently turned one of my beloved baby reticulated pythons who died of natural causes into a beautiful bracelet....well actually more than one bracelet!....
I'd usually put my mantids that just died into my aquarium and let my fishes eat 'em up. The other day I put a dead ghost into the tank and my arowana was like, 'What the...I'm a CARNIVORE, why are you giving me dead leaves?!" My oscar immediately downed the ghost and was like, 'Hahaha foo. It was a bug!"
Do you killl all of your mantids food beforehand? Would you be ok with him feeding it to his lizard alive? What do you mean a mantis eats its food head first? That isn't true. They eat whatever part is closest to their mouth first.
beckyl92
Well-known member
Peter Clausen
Well-known member
Dearest Mantisfart2,
Did I hand feed the fish to the mantis, you ask?
The skin on scale folks will be happy to know that I didn't technically hand feed the fish to the mantis. I used a pair of forceps because the water was fouled from a fish that had died (a meaningless death) a day earlier and I didn't want to put my nice clean fingers in it. For those scoring at home, we have fish=1 for 2, mantis=1 for 2. As you can see, it is currently a tie, but only because one fish and one mantis have fulfilled their destinies.
If you review my two prior posts you will see my several and "only" intentions.
Would it be kinder to feed the fish dead (head first), you ask?
I can say that yes, in your heart it would be kinder. However, the mantis will find palatability to be the same, as long as all parts are eaten. (Or I could be wrong for the following reason: You see, if it only eats half the fish, it might find one half more palatable than the other, but I wouldn't know without asking the mantis and it would take the sacrificing of two fish to answer the question because a mantis that is full on half of one fish will not soon enough eat the other half before it spoils). The fish won't care if it can't feel it. Myself, well, I don't like killing things. But my mantises sure seem to have a predeliction for it.
Head vs. tail feeding you ask?
Here's the way it went down: After numerous attempts to catch a fish in water with a pair of forceps I managed to grab it by the tail. Not from experience, but through hypothesis, I made a quick decision to accept the orientation of my capture for a fish would seem to wriggle more (thereby attracting the mantis) if held by tail than by head. I concede I may be wrong on that point as I've not had much experience fishing with forceps. I never caught a fly out of the air with chopsticks, either, but that's off topic. Now comes a very important part of the process that everybody who is preparing to feed a fish to a mantis will soon want to ask themselves. After the mantis grabs the fish, you must act quickly! As another person pointed out, they will often choose a beginning point for feeding in such a way as to seem random to a human. They may start at the tail, they may start in the middle or at the head. Further, they may begin somewhere only to feel the fish wriggling out of their grip. Through a series of grasping readjustments, they may find themselves feeding on an entirely different part of the fish. This is where each keeper will need to decide whether to pry the fish out of the mantis clutches and reposition it head first, or turn away in horror...or get out the video camera.
By the way, I checked and both of the usernames Mantisfart and Mantisfart1 are available again. I'd be happy to get that pesce 2 off your username!
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revmdn
Well-known member
Thank you Phil
cloud jaguar
Well-known member
revmdn
Well-known member
How uncivilized.
mantisfart2
Well-known member
Hi rick no i don't kill my mantis food before i feed them but i also would never feed living vertebrates to my mantis. In my opinion its wrong, but thats just my opinion, and am not going to try force them on any one. And in regards to this statement due to bad punctuation on my half i think i have confused you, here it is again punctuated
If the only intention was to not waste the feeder fish, and give your mantis a little more protein would it not have been kinder to feed the fish dead or at the very least considering how a mantis eats, head first not tail first?
sorry about that but we all make mistakes now and then, like spelling kill with 3 l's
what i was trying to say was considering how a mantis eats its prey alive and in small bites would it not have been more humane to feed it head first rather than tail first, if i where to be eaten alive slowly bite by bite by bite i think as you would all agree no matter which side of the fence your on, head first would be a better way to go than toes first. Remember cruelty is a trait found only in humans in the natural world.
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