The only thing I can think of would be a dry season. It would be the equivalent of winter in northern climes. The ooth would need to be able to survive until water was available again.
What do you say?
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sidewinder
Well-known member
So you suppose there could be a humidity-terminated egg diapause? Is there any precedent for this in mantids?
Scott
I am not sure if there has been much study of mantid diapause at all! But humidity levels do cause other insects in other orders to break diapause. So it is a possibility. But, so is many other conditions or combination of conditions. Like I said, finding out for sure would take an awful lot of research. Not too many people have the time or desire to test mantid diapause conditions.
eaglewarrior
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I am Fisherman_Brazil's friend in Taiwan and was the person who had sent the ooth and the female to him. The female is collected in Kaohsiung, Taiwan. In Taiwan , some M. religiosa individuals are without the eye spots but only with black spots on the coxa of their front legs.
This female had laid an ooth before I sent it to Fisherman_Brazil, I put the ooth in normal temperature (around 75 to 84F) and watered it once a week, and It incubated about 70 nymphs in approximately a month.
I haven't breed M. religiosa in Europe before, but I'm sure that it doesn't need a period of colder temperatures to incubate.
Please forgive my poor English.
This female had laid an ooth before I sent it to Fisherman_Brazil, I put the ooth in normal temperature (around 75 to 84F) and watered it once a week, and It incubated about 70 nymphs in approximately a month.
I haven't breed M. religiosa in Europe before, but I'm sure that it doesn't need a period of colder temperatures to incubate.
Please forgive my poor English.
sidewinder
Well-known member
eaglewarrior,
The Mantis religiosa population in the cooler parts of Europe do require a diapause that is broken by winter. Based on information presented here, the M. religiosa in Taiwan and Africa do not need a diapause.
In a calendar year, do the M. religiosa in Taiwan have one generation or multiple generations?
Scott
The Mantis religiosa population in the cooler parts of Europe do require a diapause that is broken by winter. Based on information presented here, the M. religiosa in Taiwan and Africa do not need a diapause.
In a calendar year, do the M. religiosa in Taiwan have one generation or multiple generations?
Scott
eaglewarrior
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In my observation, I can always find oothecae, nymphs and adults at the same time and the same place, furthermore, adults can also be found in winter, so I think it's multiple generations in Taiwan.
Hello Eaglewarrior!
Thanks for the excellent information! And your English is just fine my friend!
Thanks for the excellent information! And your English is just fine my friend!
Many of the insects in Taiwan follow seasons and have annual or biannual generations, it's a little hard to believe mantids would be year-round but anything is possible, especially with introduced creatures.
I does read like a mistake.
sidewinder
Well-known member
Orin,
Is Mantis religiosa an introduced species in Taiwan?
What about M. religiosa i Africa? Do you think they are introduced there as well? There are no typical seasons in Ghana. How do you think M. religiosa manages there if they were introduced?
Scott
Is Mantis religiosa an introduced species in Taiwan?
What about M. religiosa i Africa? Do you think they are introduced there as well? There are no typical seasons in Ghana. How do you think M. religiosa manages there if they were introduced?
Scott
kamakiri
Well-known member
Scott...you can't believe *everything* you read even if written by experts more generally knowledgeable...
Seems to me that the M. religiosa found in Africa may be a subspecies and the ones pictured earlier from Taiwan probably are *at least* a subspecies, if not an entirely new one. That is considering some of that population even lacks the white spot...and the ones in the pictures do not look particularly white (compared to my specimens/pets). I think extensive cross-breeding would be required to find out what the truth is.
Seems to me that the M. religiosa found in Africa may be a subspecies and the ones pictured earlier from Taiwan probably are *at least* a subspecies, if not an entirely new one. That is considering some of that population even lacks the white spot...and the ones in the pictures do not look particularly white (compared to my specimens/pets). I think extensive cross-breeding would be required to find out what the truth is.
sidewinder
Well-known member
The only thing that I have read that I have taken as "truth" is that Mantis religiosa is present in Taiwan and Ghana. What, specifically, are you referring to?
Scott
kamakiri
Well-known member
I'm talking about your "Did you guys read this:" about what Dr. Yager wrote. And also some of the assumptions you make below:
http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/geography/climate.php
There are also other possible explanations like daylight duration which still happens to a lesser extent in the tropics. For example, in Hawaii, the summer and winter solstice variance is still over 2 hours.
That's not correct:
http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/geography/climate.php
Like I said earlier, if diapause required a trigger time like 65 or 68 degrees F, then it would work even in Ghana based on the chart on the above page.
There are also other possible explanations like daylight duration which still happens to a lesser extent in the tropics. For example, in Hawaii, the summer and winter solstice variance is still over 2 hours.
Hi
I think its about two years ago now when I posted my opinion about this topic here in the forum. i wrote something like its impossible for south african religiosas to diapause.
Another point is that I dont like to give any information about this species because here in germany and in almost entire europe its forbidden by law to keep or breed this species...
Whatever, I know for most of you guyes its not forbidden at least the tribe is not from europe.
However, there is 11 subspecies of this species,
religiosa beybienkoi (asia)
relogiosa caucasica (guess from where)
r eichleri (africa)
r inornata (asia)
r langoalata (asia)
r latinota (asia)
r macedonica (guess from where)
r polonica (guess from where)
r siedleckii (asia, living in the real east asia, maybe this is the species this thread deals with)
r sinica (asia)
and of course religiosa religiosa, a cosmopolitan species. This species lives in areas with cold winters as well as in areas without cold winters
(reference: Ehrmann 2002)
regards, tier
By the way, the ooth will tolerate temperatures from 100°C until -40°C as far as I remember
I think its about two years ago now when I posted my opinion about this topic here in the forum. i wrote something like its impossible for south african religiosas to diapause.
Another point is that I dont like to give any information about this species because here in germany and in almost entire europe its forbidden by law to keep or breed this species...
Whatever, I know for most of you guyes its not forbidden at least the tribe is not from europe.
However, there is 11 subspecies of this species,
religiosa beybienkoi (asia)
relogiosa caucasica (guess from where)
r eichleri (africa)
r inornata (asia)
r langoalata (asia)
r latinota (asia)
r macedonica (guess from where)
r polonica (guess from where)
r siedleckii (asia, living in the real east asia, maybe this is the species this thread deals with)
r sinica (asia)
and of course religiosa religiosa, a cosmopolitan species. This species lives in areas with cold winters as well as in areas without cold winters
(reference: Ehrmann 2002)
regards, tier
By the way, the ooth will tolerate temperatures from 100°C until -40°C as far as I remember
sidewinder
Well-known member
kamakiri,
I said that if Dr. Yager says there are Mantis religiosa in parts of the world that don't need a diapause, I would tend to believe him. And I still do!
We seem to have information from independent sources to back that up. I quoted a page in The Praying Mantids, in a chapter written by Dr. Malcom Edmunds and Dani Brunner. Now if you look here, you will see that Dr. Edmunds has many publications and has spent a lot of time studying animal life in Ghana:
http://www.uclan.ac.uk/scitech/built_natur...olm_edmunds.php
Note that there is a publication called "The defensive behaviour of Ghanaian praying mantids with a discussion of territoriality". If this Doctor says there are M. religiosa in Ghana, I think it is safe to say there are M. religiosa in Ghana.
Let's use Accra, Ghana as an example for your idea of a temperature based egg diapause. With an average low temperature of 74 degrees F, an egg diapause is without precedent. The daylight duration change from Summer to Winter solstice is a whopping 40 minutes so a daylight duration diapause is out of the question too.
We also have information from two members here regarding M. religiosa in Taiwan.
It's not like I am grasping at straws here. The information is solid.
Scott
I said that if Dr. Yager says there are Mantis religiosa in parts of the world that don't need a diapause, I would tend to believe him. And I still do!
We seem to have information from independent sources to back that up. I quoted a page in The Praying Mantids, in a chapter written by Dr. Malcom Edmunds and Dani Brunner. Now if you look here, you will see that Dr. Edmunds has many publications and has spent a lot of time studying animal life in Ghana:
http://www.uclan.ac.uk/scitech/built_natur...olm_edmunds.php
Note that there is a publication called "The defensive behaviour of Ghanaian praying mantids with a discussion of territoriality". If this Doctor says there are M. religiosa in Ghana, I think it is safe to say there are M. religiosa in Ghana.
Let's use Accra, Ghana as an example for your idea of a temperature based egg diapause. With an average low temperature of 74 degrees F, an egg diapause is without precedent. The daylight duration change from Summer to Winter solstice is a whopping 40 minutes so a daylight duration diapause is out of the question too.
We also have information from two members here regarding M. religiosa in Taiwan.
It's not like I am grasping at straws here. The information is solid.
Scott
kamakiri
Well-known member
Based on tier's post above, it looks to me that the ones in Africa are a subspecies. So it's more specific to *me* that some of the subspecies do not require the diapause.
sidewinder
Well-known member
tier,HiI think its about two years ago now when I posted my opinion about this topic here in the forum. i wrote something like its impossible for south african religiosas to diapause.
Another point is that I dont like to give any information about this species because here in germany and in almost entire europe its forbidden by law to keep or breed this species...
Whatever, I know for most of you guyes its not forbidden at least the tribe is not from europe.
However, there is 11 subspecies of this species,
religiosa beybienkoi (asia)
relogiosa caucasica (guess from where)
r eichleri (africa)
r inornata (asia)
r langoalata (asia)
r latinota (asia)
r macedonica (guess from where)
r polonica (guess from where)
r siedleckii (asia, living in the real east asia, maybe this is the species this thread deals with)
r sinica (asia)
and of course religiosa religiosa, a cosmopolitan species. This species lives in areas with cold winters as well as in areas without cold winters
(reference: Ehrmann 2002)
regards, tier
By the way, the ooth will tolerate temperatures from 100°C until -40°C as far as I remember
This is fantastic information. It confirms my idea that the European Mantis religiosa must be a different subspecies than the M. religiosa found in tropical climatic zones. I didn't have any idea that there were so many subspecies.
Are you saying that it is illegal to keep or breed the European M. religiosa? Or does that apply to the tropical subspecies only?
Is M. r. caucasica the European subspecies?
This is so cool!
Scott
P.S. Would some please translate that Ehrmann book into English!!!
sidewinder
Well-known member
This what I have been arguing for since the 8th post in this thread!!! If a Mantis religiosa didn't need a diapause, it must be a subspecies.
Scott
Hello Tier,
Why do you think it is illegal to keep and breed M. religiosa in Germany? Seems odd that you can not keep a native species since mantid research is so solid in your country.
Do you have access to a key that shows how to seperate the different sub-species? Or is the seperation strictly based on collection location? Has any DNA analysis been done on the different sub-species?
Why do you think it is illegal to keep and breed M. religiosa in Germany? Seems odd that you can not keep a native species since mantid research is so solid in your country.
Do you have access to a key that shows how to seperate the different sub-species? Or is the seperation strictly based on collection location? Has any DNA analysis been done on the different sub-species?
MantidLord
Well-known member
Man this is really interesting. But I still have a question: where would the original species of M. religiosa reside? Since all the ones listed by Tier were subspecies, where is the original. Maybe studying the differences between the "original" and subspecies could yield some more information
Hi
M. religiosa religiosa is the one living in germany. And its germanys only native mantid, its very very very rare (never seen one here) and only living in very few areas with special climate. Thats why its protected by law.
This is the species which needs a diapause as long as its from europe. But religiosa religiosa is native in more or less all parts of the world, that means:
The subspecies religiosa religiosa is diapausing in europe and north america, while its not diapausing in asia and africa. THE SAME SUBSPECIES!!!
No, I cannot distinguish the subspecies.
There is no "original", all are subspecies
M. religiosa religiosa is the one living in germany. And its germanys only native mantid, its very very very rare (never seen one here) and only living in very few areas with special climate. Thats why its protected by law.
This is the species which needs a diapause as long as its from europe. But religiosa religiosa is native in more or less all parts of the world, that means:
The subspecies religiosa religiosa is diapausing in europe and north america, while its not diapausing in asia and africa. THE SAME SUBSPECIES!!!
No, I cannot distinguish the subspecies.
There is no "original", all are subspecies
