world's largest praying mantis

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To be honest, a mantis at 18" is probably not as hard to believe as you'd imagine.

There is a whole host of arthropods and other inverts that reach a far greater mass than a mantis at 18" (as stated probably a stick-mimic type or grass) would reach. Beetles are the heaviest supposedly, but I think there are giant crickets/wetas that I've seen in london zoo when I worked there that were HUGE and would give a very very nasty kick/pinch which would do more damage than an anaconda bite...

People still discover a LOT of species every year, and mantids are also relatively sloth like creatues which expend little energy until it comes to flight or capture, flight which is infrequent at best and prey capture is an incredibly short space of time.

Although I wouldn't trust too many reports online regarding mantids, I wouldn't brush it off either! I remember the days when they said a coelacanth reportedly found was scientific bs... well what a joke, a large community were eating and selling them frequently at market lol!

18" mantis though... I'll have to see it to believe it, but hopefully I will! Lots of habitat loss at the moment is probably the key factor in not finding anymore, if indeed it was found.

Whether or not the 18" was a phasmid or not, I don't know. Phasmids frequently can reach around 16"+ or so (Phobaeticus serratipes), so this can be quite likely, but mistaking a phasmid for a mantid is quite different!

 
this is such a lazy and reckless rebuttal.1. the same goes to you - you can not say with 100% certainty as well that that is correct.

2. given the great amount we know about mantises, it is UNREASONABLE to even believe it's quite probable. OCCAM'S RAZOR.
Actually it is a nice way to end a discussion with someone who has a different view. When one says no way and the other says maybe, there is a deadlock and it cant go anywhere since neither side can prove or disprove.

Namecalling is not a good debate technique in the civilized world. :p

 
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Actually it is a nice way to end a discussion with someone who has a different view. When one says no way and the other says maybe, there is a deadlock and it cant go anywhere since neither side can prove or disprove.
going back to my earlier post, that's unreasonable. proof does not always come in the form of materialness. how do we know for sure that christopher colombus discovered the americas? how do we know the chinese invented gunpowder? we weren't there physically, but we can still prove things within REASON. your logic commits the fallacy of appealing to probability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_probability

Namecalling is not a good debate technique in the civilized world. :p
never did i ever call you a name.

 
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Well, we can leave it at that - because this thread is totally off topic now and should probably be locked.

 
The world's largest praying mantis was recorded at 45cm (18") long, in Southern China, in 1929.Now THAT would be a mantis to own, though what would you feed it ? small children ? :p
... believe me, if there would exist a 45 cm long mantis, I would keep it... ;)

...back to topic and have a nice day,

regards,

Juergen

 
http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?sh...c=6583&st=0

This topic been discussed before, the exact 18" mantis issue. Unless a valid photo is there, it is hard to believe. Here is a pic from Lars, the longest i have ever seen, with proper measurement to show.

Iscnomantis_02.jpg


 
It is adult. It is an Ischnomantis. Or is it a Solygia?

I think the biggest mantis is Ischnomantis gigas, by the way.

regards,

tier

edit: yes, should be Solygia, a pretty close relative of Ischnomantis.

 
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It is adult. It is an Ischnomantis.I think the biggest mantis is Ischnomantis gigas, by the way.

regards,

tier
Hello,

are you sure that it is a picture of Ischnomantis spec.? Or is it one of the Solygia sulcatifrons that Soeren and Tobi have found during their last tour... the scale unit shows cm...

best regards,

Juergen

 
ops i forgot to include the species name in my post, Juergen is correct, that is Solygia sulcatifrons .

Honestly i would love to see mantis of mega size, but i can be amused with just a 6-inch mantis, an 8-inch mantis will definately blow me away, it doesn't have to be 18" :lol:

 
To be honest, a mantis at 18" is probably not as hard to believe as you'd imagine.There is a whole host of arthropods and other inverts that reach a far greater mass than a mantis at 18" (as stated probably a stick-mimic type or grass) would reach. Beetles are the heaviest supposedly, but I think there are giant crickets/wetas that I've seen in london zoo when I worked there that were HUGE and would give a very very nasty kick/pinch which would do more damage than an anaconda bite...

People still discover a LOT of species every year, and mantids are also relatively sloth like creatues which expend little energy until it comes to flight or capture, flight which is infrequent at best and prey capture is an incredibly short space of time.

Although I wouldn't trust too many reports online regarding mantids, I wouldn't brush it off either! I remember the days when they said a coelacanth reportedly found was scientific bs... well what a joke, a large community were eating and selling them frequently at market lol!

18" mantis though... I'll have to see it to believe it, but hopefully I will! Lots of habitat loss at the moment is probably the key factor in not finding anymore, if indeed it was found.

Whether or not the 18" was a phasmid or not, I don't know. Phasmids frequently can reach around 16"+ or so (Phobaeticus serratipes), so this can be quite likely, but mistaking a phasmid for a mantid is quite different!
Thank you. Everyone gets their panties in a bunch when someone talks about the largest mantids. NOBODY can say for sure that there is/was or isn't/wasn't an 18" mantid. Does anyone recall when the giant squid was the stuff of legend? And all the "lost habitat" whining. There is SO MUCH unexplored habitat on this planet with new species discovered regularly. I believe Darwin called it "survival of the fittest" which is why mantids are still here. Are we alone in the universe too? As long as so many people have all the answers, I've got the questions. Talk about a God complex.

 
Just to add a little. While it is very likely that no mantis of that size has been found, we certainly can not say that it is impossible. I can't remember who said it(I don't feel like looking it up as I'm a bit lazy right now and really should actually be typing my research paper) but it was mentioned that due to the mantid's, and in fact all insect's, system they cannot grow to be that size. But I would like to ask why a mantis can't reach that length when other insects can. At that size they would still be structurally sound and capable of breathing as long as they didn't have too much girth.

 
Hi.

I did not say a mantis cannot reach 30 cm. I said a mantis cannot reach 3 feet or something, which is more then 90 cm. That's a lot more than the largest insect ever found. Secondly, the time when this happened is some 400 million years ago, when there was more oxygen in the atmosphere than today. Insects can't reach absurd sizes today. They adapted to quick reproduction to compensate for predation by vertebrates. This requires smaller sizes than theoretically possible.

However, if a 30 cm mantis existed, it would be known to science. This is a fact, I'm sorry. It is a difference if you find a species in a collection (most species are "found" in existing collections by taxonomists, by the way, and not directly in the wild) which may be slightly larger than the known ones, say 18 cm or so, and finding one of 30 cm. There isn't many habitat left, by the way. Not as much as to find a 30 cm mantis. A species of that size would require a rather large area of distribution, not a small remote valley somewhere in one of the few remaining remote areas.

However, I seem to talk against walls here. If you decide to ignore scientific truth and decide to believe in Wikipedia rumours, just do it. I won't take more of my precious time to explain myself and why I know what I'm talking about. Take it or leave it, I don't have any problem with this. It seems to me that some people think they have eaten the wisdom of the world with spoons just by googling a few weeks through the www. Forget all the literature! Forget all science! Forget the skills of long-term experts and taxonomists! Believe the stoned guy who saw a 30 cm mantis in his opium halo some 70 years ago! That's real! ;)

 
I for one believe you Christian.. but you must take into consideration that not everybody in the world knows who you are, and what education/profession you've got :)

They don't know that you're not just a guy that has read about this on the internet..

Perhaps you could tell people a little about yourself ?

 
However, if a 30 cm mantis existed, it would be known to science. This is a fact, I'm sorry. It is a difference if you find a species in a collection (most species are "found" in existing collections by taxonomists, by the way, and not directly in the wild) which may be slightly larger than the known ones, say 18 cm or so, and finding one of 30 cm. There isn't many habitat left, by the way. Not as much as to find a 30 cm mantis. A species of that size would require a rather large area of distribution, not a small remote valley somewhere in one of the few remaining remote areas. However, I seem to talk against walls here. If you decide to ignore scientific truth and decide to believe in Wikipedia rumours, just do it. I won't take more of my precious time to explain myself and why I know what I'm talking about. Take it or leave it, I don't have any problem with this. It seems to me that some people think they have eaten the wisdom of the world with spoons just by googling a few weeks through the www. Forget all the literature! Forget all science! Forget the skills of long-term experts and taxonomists! Believe the stoned guy who saw a 30 cm mantis in his opium halo some 70 years ago! That's real! ;)
I just typed a huge reply and internet explorer conked out when I opened a new tab ¬_¬

- anyway, just to say that your first quote is not "fact" at all in my opinion. I'm pretty sure that fact against hundreds of species has led to be common knowledge in other areas, and pure wrong in others. Coelocanths are 2m long fish which were apparantly extinct due to a whole multitude of reasons, one being their inability to adapt and survive,which was bollox as we know, this is a large fish which is very much still alive and sold in south american, south east asian and south african markets. Giant squid were supposedly rumours, live specimens and dead ones have been found and kept, weirder still, is that after they said nothing (invert wise) can get bigger (or faster) than a giant squid due to oxygen and bouyancy/skeletel constraints, they find colossal squid which are bigger, more aggressive and faster!

Every year we find new species, big ones, small ones etc. birds, insects, reptiles, amphibians etc. In vietnam alone hundreds of species, large ones included, are discovered every year. Vietnam is by no means a deserted island either.

'In 11 previous expeditions to the rainforests, Murphy and co-workers have

identified three dozen new varieties of these reptiles and amphibians that no

one suspected even existed. Other scientists on the research team have also

catalogued a treasure trove of new insects.'

"It happens more often than you think — vertebrates once steadfastly believed not

to exist are suddenly discovered or rediscovered. In fact, about 40 percent of

all recognized mammal species have been discovered in this century. Most of

these are bats and rodents, but there have been larger, more varied species,

too, like the Komodo dragon monitor lizard (Indonesian Islands, 1912), the giant

forest hog (East Africa, 1902), the pygmy chimpanzee (Congo, 1929), and the Vu

Quang ox (Vietnam, 1992).

In 1976, a 15-foot shark called megamouth was identified, representing a

completely new species, genus and family." - Thomas Ropp. Arizona Reporter.

In terms of range/distribution, there are cases where a lot of isolation, allotropic or otherwise, has occured. By no means does a large mantis have to have a large distribution, it is highly possible that through any form of speciation that a novel (or no so novel) trait such as gigantism or just being large, will have much benefit in a certain area, such as one with fewer predators and more prey abundance etc.

It was only in 1999 that Shangri-La was supposedly "discovered" - this being a mythical area now known to science. Will copy and paste a bit :

"But it is verdant, it is a kind of paradise and it is hidden deep within

Tibet's Himalayan Mountains in a monstrously steep,

gorge-within-a-gorge. There is no record of any human visiting, or even

seeing, the area before.

Tucked beneath a mountain spur at a sharp bend of the Tsangpo River,

where the cliff sides are only 75 yards apart and cast perpetual

shadows, the place failed to show up even on satellite surveillance

photographs of the area.

"If there is a Shangri-la, this is it," said Rebecca Martin, director of

the National Geographic Society's Expeditions Board, which sponsored the

trek. "This is a pretty startling discovery -- especially in a time when

many people are saying, 'What's left to discover?' "

Tentatively named by the explorers the "Hidden Falls of the Tsangpo"

and located in a forbidding region called Pemako that Tibetans consider

highly sacred, the elusive site was reached by American explorers Ian

Baker, Ken Storm Jr. and Brian Harvey late last year, though the

society did not make its confirmation of their success official until

Thursday.

In addition to a spectacular 100-foot-high waterfall -- long rumored,

but until now undocumented -- they found a subtropical garden between a

23,000-foot and a 26,000-foot mountain, at the bottom of a

4,000-foot-high cliff.

It's the world's deepest mountain gorge, Martin said.

"It's a place teeming with life," Storm said in a telephone interview

from his office in the Minneapolis suburb of Burnsville. "It's a

terribly

wild river, with many small waterfalls, heavy rapids and a tremendous

current surging through. Yet there are all kinds of flora -- subtropical

pine, rhododendrons, craggy fir and hemlock and spruce on the

hillsides -- it's lush. Just a tremendous wild garden landscape."

The animals there include a rare, horned creature called the takin,

sacred to Tibetan Buddhists... article continues"

There are several species of fish and frog endemic to certain lakes, streams and pathces of forest, so one cannot limit the range by lack of evidence for it...

Anyhow, there's a lot more, and if you want, i can request in-depth analysis of gigantism bug theory from a world leading professor if desired.

 
Now what's your point? You're talking mainly about vertebrates, I refer to mantids.

None of the species you mentioned is considerably larger than expected. Of course there are still species to be discovered but all your long text does't fit the point in any way. You cannot compare neither vertebrates with arthropods, nor aquatic animals with land-living ones. I don't find any point able to disprove what I said.

However, I should leave it here, giving the job back to Don Quijote.

 
No they weren't. Did you watch too many Godzilla movies? ;) Sea scorpions were aquatic arthropods, using gills. There is no size restriction for gill-breathing aquatic animals, except maybe statical constraints.

Insects are primarily land insects breathing with tracheal tubes, and are size restricted due to this point. They may reach sizes a little larger than seen today, but the only time when insects and other arthropods were considerably larger was the Carboniferous (due to a higher oxygen content of the atmosphere). Mantids are not as old. Other info is outdated.

So, I do not have to be there to know there IS no mantid as large as 29 cm. There is enough serious literature on this issue. The internet contains a lot of wrong information on mantids. Once I wanted to contribute to the Wikipedia article, but ceased it after more and more bull**** accumulated. I did not find one site on mantids without wrong info yet.

So, sometimes the good old (or even new!) paper literature is by far better than any site on the net. Journals edit and review the information they get. On the net, everyone can post everything, regardless whether he knows about it or not.

To make a long story short: I know that there is no mantid known to science (science, not the www!) which reaches that size. Maybe that Chinese thing was a stick insect or something.

regards,

Christian
arm chair thinking:

I think that it's worth pointing out that the limitations of any terrestrial exoskeleton-based animal size being primarily a factor of oxygen levels and structural limitations of exoskeletons-- though much written about and seemingly viable-- are only theories. The size of any arthropod species could be related to factors that are more complex. The relatively small size of arthropods could be more a factor of natural selection tuning size for predators/available food resources/adaptability-- not oxygen-- not limits on exo.. That's probably a discussion beyond the scope of a forum post, so I'll leave it at that. Consider...

If oxygen and structural limitations are not valid, then a mega-sized mantid (or other arthropod)...say 2-30ft is possible through selective breeding/genetic manipulation.

Galen

 
Christian, you asked what the point of his post was. I was actually going to pull up the same evidence as it's current so nothing could be claimed about not having areas anymore. I am going into the field of zoology, so I do my book work before I make my posts on such topics. Trojon's post is highly relevent as he is indicating species much larger than any praying mantis. It's not important that the species are vertabrates because they are larger and have wider ranges than a praying mantis would. It proves that an over sized mantis could still be secluded in the forests of the east, which are some of the least explored areas known to science. The people on that expedition were specialized in vertabrate studies, not entomology. I am certain that when an entomologist has the opportunity to research in the area, many new insects will be discovered. One of them may not be a mantis, and nothing may be larger than average, but the possibilities are always there. All I'm asking is that we don't shut out possibilities as "absurd" and "impossible" when they are only unlikely.

Kirk

 
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