Yet another M. religiosa question

[agent A]

they hatch about 150 nymphs. They are extremely sensitive to cold. I released them, it got to 58 degrees that night, most died, then on my birthday (June 22nd), I found an L4 nymph, so they grow fast, it molted a week later into L5 before dying of a seizure (remember that topic)-it was a male

 

[Ntsees]

True, I know what you mean. I killed a couple of I. oratoria nymphs before by leaving them in a container outside; baked them alive. But one thing, this species seems to be taken over by I. oratoria. I used to find a lot of them years ago, (8 years ago) but over the past two years I've only found one adult female M. religiosa. Could such a small species really be driving M. religiosa out of this habitat?

Your situation is the same as mines in regards to the I. oratoria out-numbering the M. religiosa. Where I live, the wild M. religiosa always hatch out earlier and the earliest adults appear by July. I don't know if I. oratoria is driving the M. religiosa because I once kept a female M. religiosa outside and it caught and ate a wild adult I. oratoria female.

 

[MantidLord]

@Ntsees: That's why I'm a little confused. I mean M. religiosa can easily prey on I. oratoria. So unless I. oratoria are more efficient hunters, then I can't see why they are diminishing in numbers (even if they were more efficient, M. religiosa would just prey on them).

@Agent A: 150 out of a normal sized ooth huh. Okay, so I may be looking at about 150 X 2 (for the two regular ooths) + 3(50-100) (for three smaller ooths) which should equal out to about 525 nymphs. This of course will probably be the maximum amount of nymphs as I'm sure I'll get less than that. Taking into consideration that half of the nymphs will probably die due to unknown, unavoidable causes leaving about 260. Not to mention nymphs lost to cannibalism before they're large enough to separate (lets divide by 2 again) to equal 130. And of course, the fact that these species appear to be (contradicting that the web says they are easy starter species) pretty difficult to keep alive, I'll lose some extras in the L1 and L2 phase due to mismolts, trapped in water, etc. So lets divide by 2 again to get 65. Coupled by mismolts throughout development, I should end up with (If I'm lucky) at most 60 nymphs making it passed L3.

By that time I'm sure the cold periods will be nearing the end and I'll be preparing to release some of them outside. I know I can't possibly calculate/predict the number of mantids, but I'm only doing this so I can decide when to take the next step: incubation.

 

[MantidLord]

Besides, if I get my leopard gecko before they hatch, I might use some as feeders (depending on what I fill the nymphs with).

 

[agent A]

M. Religiosa has very high mortality rates. Consider yourself really really lucky if 10 survive to adulthood from 1 ooth

 

[Ntsees]

What Agent A said is the only possible explanation (for me at least) why M. religiosa, although they are much physically stronger, isn't as abundant as the I. oratoria in the wild.

 

[MantidLord]

What Agent A said is the only possible explanation (for me at least) why M. religiosa, although they are much physically stronger, isn't as abundant as the I. oratoria in the wild.

So how would that explain M. religiosa in territories with Stagmomantis sp.? By the way, I'm not criticizing you, I'm just throwing off ideas because this is pretty interesting to me. And Agent A, thanks. Honestly despite my "calculations" I would be happy if i got 10 from all of them (as long as I let some go or used some as feeders).

 

[Ntsees]

So how would that explain M. religiosa in territories with Stagmomantis sp.? By the way, I'm not criticizing you, I'm just throwing off ideas because this is pretty interesting to me. And Agent A, thanks. Honestly despite my "calculations" I would be happy if i got 10 from all of them (as long as I let some go or used some as feeders).

Don't worry about me being criticized (I didn't even see it as criticizing). There are many things that I don't know and if I'm wrong, I want to be corrected and I want to learn. What I meant to say is that although the introduced M. religiosa is capable of surviving in territories with the Stagmomantis sp., their instar survival is low and therefore that accounts to the low numbers of adults. I'm just correlating on the low survival rate in captivity and applying it to the wild (~if that's what we see in captivity, then that's probably what happens in the wild). There are some forum members who I think are experts at raising mantids and if they are doing their best with M. religiosa and the survival rate is still low, then I think that it's just the way the species is. Of course, this is just my thought and I hope I answered your question.

 

[ismart]

Okay, some of you may no that I've had Mantis religiosa ooths since about September. After following the advice of members on the forum, I placed the ooths in a container outside so they can go through diapause and hatch in the spring. So while I'm waiting for months, <_< I've got some questions:1) Is 15 degrees celsius a cold enough temperature for these guys to enter diapause?

2) It hasn't really rained this winter so I've misted the ooths every once in a while (less than ten times since they've been layed). Is this enough, meaning is it possible that they've dried out?

3) I checked up on the ooths about a week ago and noticed molt in the substrate (soil). None of the molt were on the sticks or ooths so I just dumped the soil out. Should I just keep the ooths without a substrate or try something else (like paper towel) and just mist them less or poke more holes for ventilation?

And finally 4) What make's this species difficult to raise (Rick)? I've raised wild caught specimens from about three molts from adult hood and had random casualties where the mantids will be eating and then just die. But overall, I was successful. Do the problems occur much earlier in the development cycle?

Thanks all in advance. I know some of these questions are probably simple, but I'm just curious and want to make sure they hatch and I can rear them successfully. I can take pics of the ooths if needed.

1) 15 degrees celsius seems high to me. Remember this species can also be found as far north as Canada. I would keep them like in 8 celsius or less.

2) That is fine. I one time forgot to mist my european ooths for a whole winter. They were kept in my garage in a cardbord box wraped in some paper towel. I thought for sure nothing was going to hatch, but to my surprise all 6 ooths hatched out about 200 nymphs each, that spring.

3) The only time you need a substrate is when you are incubating them. No substrate is required when they are in diapause. Just mist every now and then.

4) Rick unfortunately had a weak batch to begin with. I have had the same problem in the past. I have had ooths hatch out only a handfull of weak nymphs, and die soon after. I have also had great hatches reaching over 200 nymphs per ooth. These nymphs were strong. One of these ooths i decided to keep 10 of the nymphs. I managed to raise all 10 to adulthood with no problems. I ended up with 5 males, and 5 females. That was sweet! B) I know i will never have a male to female ratio like that again!

Your questions are good ones! This species can be tricky at times.

 

[Ntsees]

1) 15 degrees celsius seems high to me. Remember this species can also be found as far north as Canada. I would keep them like in 8 celsius or less.2) That is fine. I one time forgot to mist my european ooths for a whole winter. They were kept in my garage in a cardbord box wraped in some paper towel. I thought for sure nothing was going to hatch, but to my surprise all 6 ooths hatched out about 200 nymphs each, that spring.

3) The only time you need a substrate is when you are incubating them. No substrate is required when they are in diapause. Just mist every now and then.

4) Rick unfortunately had a weak batch to begin with. I have had the same problem in the past. I have had ooths hatch out only a handfull of weak nymphs, and die soon after. I have also had great hatches reaching over 200 nymphs per ooth. These nymphs were strong. One of these ooths i decided to keep 10 of the nymphs. I managed to raise all 10 to adulthood with no problems. I ended up with 5 males, and 5 females. That was sweet! B) I know i will never have a male to female ratio like that again!

Your questions are good ones! This species can be tricky at times.

Ok, that's very good to know - that it depends on how strong the batch is.

 

[MantidLord]

Thanks a bunch guys for the replies. Ismart, that helps to know that it depends on the batch. I hope that considering how tough my females were, that their batch will be strong. I'll put them in my garage where it is much cooler than outside, and there is no substrate in there anymore. And yeah, you were lucky to get a ratio like that. Hopefully I'll be somewhat lucky. I thought this species hatched less than T. sinensis, but it seems they're roughly the same.

Ntsees, I see what you mean, and that really does make since in terms of survival rate. And if the mantids are exposed to ideal conditions and still die then I guess it could be contributed to low survival rates (depending on if it is a weak batch as stated above). The only problem is, I actually used to see more M. religiosa. What I'm trying to say is, I used to be able to find religiosas around Nevada fairly easy, but then there was a period where I found nothing. Now, I only find I. oratoria and one M. religiosa within the past four years. So I'm guessing there is a correlation between the gap with no mantids/emergence of I. oratoria and the lowering population of M. religiosa. Because frankly, low survival rates would have made it hard to find them in the first place, but it wasn't. While when I go to California, I can find M. religiosa all day and I rarely find S. limbata (which share the same habitat).

 

[agent A]

M. religiosa likes it hot! I have seen them be adults in late July if there was a hot June, so they can become adults in like 1.5 months with hot temp. Tenodera are adults almost a month later. I do remember seeing an adult female at Indian Rock Wildlife Reserve at a summer program in late July back in 2006, and I found an L4 nymph 3 weeks after I released it with its breveren.